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Hey, folks. We're recording at the Injective Policy Summit in Washington,
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d C. And joining me is Stephen mcclerk, who is
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the CEO of Canary Capital. Stephen, great to see you,
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Thanks for having me. We've spoken over the years virtually.
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It's a great to be new this in person with you.
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What's the latest and greatest with Canary Capital.
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Yeah, well, I think what we're really excited about is
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first of all, coming out of Crypto Winner. But second
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of all, we've already launched five crypto related ETFs, and
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we've got several more on the docket, and we hope
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that they launched this year. So we're going back and
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forth with the SEC on s ones as we normally do,
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and any day now or month now, we'll have more
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in the market.
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Are you able to state which assets those are for?
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I mean I could say what we have filed. You know,
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we've got a tron etf filed, an injective one Pepe,
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which I think you know which I'm pretty excited about. Pingu,
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you know, my two favorite memes. So but those are
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the ones that you know that we have on file
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that are progressing quite nicely.
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I remember when we last spoke, it was around the
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launch of the x RP ETF, which has been your
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top performers.
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Yeah, so for us, xrp's probably been the best one.
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We were able to get out and launch that first,
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which is pretty meaningful in the ETF market. So we
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actually our x RP ETF was the biggest ETF launched
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last year, which we were very proud of because we're
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a brand new company. We're small and and and and
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we came out with the biggest ETF. So it had
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about two hundred and no sorry, two or fifty million
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day one, so very excited about that.
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That's awesome. Congrats on that. And then what is the
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feature of ETF's like for you and what are canaries plans?
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Are you planning to do index ETFs and maybe bring
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some of the traditional asset ETFs to crypto.
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Yeah, well, I mean, look, we're you know, we still
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have plans for single token ETFs, we've filed for and
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have discussed doing other indexes. We want to make sure
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that there's a really good theme before we go forward
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and launch something like that, so so we're holding off there.
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We know a lot of other people are doing indexes,
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but that's where we're holding off. And we're also looking
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at other jurisdictions that don't currently have crypto ETFs, such
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as Japan and Korea.
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Wow, that's fascinating that they don't have that as yet.
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So you already have the model here in the United States.
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You can easily take it to other jurisdictions.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Oh wow, And I'm assuming there's demand there. I you know,
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I keep up with the news as best as possible,
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and I see South Korea Japan they're very interested in
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all coins and things like that.
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Yeah, their regulations currently don't allow them to have to
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ETFs at the moment.
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But.
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The politicians in both of those countries are very keen
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on allowing it because they don't want to see their
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money going off shore.
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That makes sense. You know. One of the things I've
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been thinking about, Steve, is that China. You know, they
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historically have been kind of anti crypto, although they're warming up,
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but in Hong Kong jurisdics and day Control they allow ETFs.
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Could that rapper help preserve their capital flight worries in
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mainland China?
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You think yeah, I think so. You know, it's very
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difficult to move money in and out of China in general,
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including Hong Kong. So the rappers that exist in Hong
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Kong certainly allow a vehicle for Chinese investors to trade
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or to invest, so, you know, and I do see
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Korea and Japan looking at that model and saying, yeah,
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you know, that's a great way to keep money on shore,
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so we probably want to do something similar.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely. Do you what are your thoughts on let's say
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the Clarity Act passes, what impact them may have on ETFs?
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Do you expect more inflows because people, uh, those who
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may be on the sidelines say, we have more confidence.
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It's the rule of law that's in place for this
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asset class.
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You know, I really don't, you know, And I'm I'm
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the one percent that doesn't think it matters. So I
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don't think clarity you know. I think the Clarity Act
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is largely symbolic. I don't really think it has a
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whole lot of an impact on my business or ETFs
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in general. But it is a nice symbolic gesture, and I.
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Think, Steve, there's times I dug into that and I
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look at what the regulatory agencies are doing. As long
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as the regulatory agencies give this stamp of approval. Okay,
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whatever legislation you pass will rubber stamp everything and prevent
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a future administration from changing things. But the crux of
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the issue is the agencies have to get it done.
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Yeah, that's right. And if you look at the SEC,
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particularly Entertainment Atkins, he's really transform the SEC to allow
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you crypto ETFs, but but also a lot of other
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types of vehicles that the rule of law actually allows. Right,
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They're not trying to stop something unless there's a rule
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in place. So once that has happened, even if there's
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a change administration, even if there's a change in the commissioners,
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it's really going to be difficult to put the cat back.
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In the bag.
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Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And the agencies have been
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doing a great job. I mean we're getting rulemaking on
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all different things, mean coins staking, which is really great.
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Speaking of staking, do you guys currently offer that and
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what type of activity are're seeing there?
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We do, so.
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Any token that we have in an ETF format, we
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do offer the ability where we do stake them, and
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we do offer that yield out to our clients. So
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I think that's a very important piece of this because
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part of you know, investing in protocols is the ability
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to actually stake to the network, vote on the network,
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and then receive the awards that the network gives you back.
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And that was a very important piece of legislation last
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year that allows us that allowed us to do that.
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And did you see that during the bear market that
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institutions investors and so forth over like you know what,
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there's not much price action, but I can stake and
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earn at passive reward.
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Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And by the way, even
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though the market's down, and it's gone down pretty significantly
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over the last year, we still continue to get inflows
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into our ETFs. So we've you know, on a net basis,
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we've seen very very few outflows and mostly inflows. And
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what that means is at this part and time, it
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shows me that a true bottom is for me.
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And as smart investors, this is the time they come
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in and take positions because you're at the lows. As
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Warren Buffett and these folks have said, buy the blood
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on the streets.
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Right, Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, there's a bit
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of blood which is which is great, but also you know,
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trying to time bottoms is very difficult, right, So when
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you're when you're timing it, when you're trying to time it,
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when the momentium is going the other way, you can
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really get hurt. But at this point in time where
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that where a bottom truly is forming and there's a
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lot of positive activity. Look, you know, crypto markets could
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go down five ten percent again, but at this level
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and what the potential is, there's asymmetric risk and reward
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here that you know, I believe there's no reason not
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to buy right now.
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Now.
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I like to look at the markets from a macro
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perspective because if you're looking at the one minute charge
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deers even or at a ten minute you're going to
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get wrecked, right, It's going to make your stomach term.
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But when you zoom out so you feel that the
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bottom is in and we might be starting in a
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larger uptrend. But there's going to be volatively, of course,
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right Parah, of.
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Course, yeah, there'll be volatility. But one of the things
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that that just occurred this week was CPI data came
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in in a very positive way for rates. So CPI
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is much lower than expected. Things quickly changed on the
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on the rate front, where the large amount of you know,
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large amount of the market does believe that there will
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be no change, which I think is good. Right now,
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the yield curve is normal again, and that's something that
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I've been waiting for. So investors actually get rewarded for
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taking longer duration risk, but it also means that investors
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get rewarded for taking risk on risk assets.
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Are there any plans on your end to look at
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tokenize acids and ETFs but also tokenizing ETOs.
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Yeah, I honestly don't think that tokenizing ETFs makes a
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whole lot of sense at this moment. It's sort of like,
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you know, you take a token, you put it in ETF,
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then you put it in a token. Yeah, you know,
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so I don't. I don't think it makes makes a
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ton of sense. I mean that's essentially what an ETF is,
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like old school total. Yeah. But where I do think
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it makes sense, there are more esoteric assets that don't
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fit neatly into an ETF or a mutual fund wrapper.
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So that's really where I think the market's going to go.
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First, do you think over time and maybe this is
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like ten years an hour or less. Real estate and
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some of these other assets are tokenized, but also in ETFs.
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Oh oh yeah, absolutely, they'll they'll be in both vehicles.
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Yeah yeah, There'll be some people that are only going
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to buy ETFs, are going to be some people that
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only buy tokens, and there's a lot of room for both.
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Are there any trends that you are looking at you
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can share it. I want you to give away your
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secret sauce. But like AI, AI agents, privacy and these things.
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As far as.
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Themes, yeah, I mean we've we've looked at a lot
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of those themes. A to me is a little bit overplayed.
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I think there. You know, there's been a lot of
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investment in the area, Electricity prices have gone up, and
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if you look at what we've actually gotten out of it,
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I mean you you have chat GBT that has a
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hallucination rate of over twenty five percent. So I can
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ask it a question, I'll just make up the answer.
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Who cares? And most people are just you know, utilizing
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AI to you know, it's like sophisticated Google or to
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you know, create videos, pictures, things like that. In order
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to get to the next step, the next stage of
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AI development, it's going to take a massive amount of
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funding and a massive amount of compute and we currently
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don't have the energy to supply that. So you know,
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it's it's going to be a big rub and it
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already is in some states that are disallowing AI data
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centers because of the electricity costs going up for citizens
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of the state.
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New York just did that, I believe this week. So
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it looks like there's gonna be even more states pushing back.
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And then, you know, as far as other themes, I'm
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trying to think of others, I guess not really and
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we'll see what. You know, aside from AI agents and
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privacy and tokenization, Are you doing anything with stable coins
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or equities?
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Not really. I mean I've I've done it in the past,
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but at this point in time, there's you know, there's
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a handful of stable coins that are really winning. You know,
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how are you going to come in and compete with that?
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So I don't see a whole lot of people trying
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to do that. But you know, maybe with other currencies
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that that's that's interesting, but not on the US dollar side.
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What about equity play, So let's say Circle securitized, so
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you get these public companies that are a crypto focused,
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are you doing anything around that, No, not really, okay,
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is you're mostly focused on the tokens.
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Yeah, right now, we're mostly focused on the tokens and
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then we'll probably spread out to other themes.
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Got it. So what's on your roadmap for this here
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that you can share?
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Yeah?
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So, well, you know, I mentioned some of the tokens
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that we've filed for. You know, I think the more
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interesting things are actually out, you know, after this, or
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actually outside of crypto. So so so we're exploring, you know,
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some some other themes that are that are outside of
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crypto that's not even an AI, but but more to
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come on that later.
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Ah. Right, we're gonna have to do another interview, Stephen,
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but I appreciate you taking the time. Good to see
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you and excited for the future of Bates iron Can
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aary Capital.
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Yeah, thank you so much.
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This episode is brought to you by go Mining. Go
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so much.
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Hey, folks. We're recording at the Injective Policy Summit in Washington,
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d C. And joining me is Stephen mcclerk, who is
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the CEO of Canary Capital. Stephen, great to see you,
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Thanks for having me. We've spoken over the years virtually.
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It's a great to be new this in person with you.
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What's the latest and greatest with Canary Capital.
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Yeah, well, I think what we're really excited about is
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first of all, coming out of Crypto Winner. But second
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of all, we've already launched five crypto related ETFs, and
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we've got several more on the docket, and we hope
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that they launched this year. So we're going back and
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forth with the SEC on s ones as we normally do,
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and any day now or month now, we'll have more
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in the market.
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Are you able to state which assets those are for?
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I mean I could say what we have filed. You know,
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we've got a tron etf filed, an injective one Pepe,
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which I think you know which I'm pretty excited about. Pingu,
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you know, my two favorite memes. So but those are
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the ones that you know that we have on file
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that are progressing quite nicely.
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I remember when we last spoke, it was around the
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launch of the x RP ETF, which has been your
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top performers.
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Yeah, so for us, xrp's probably been the best one.
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We were able to get out and launch that first,
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which is pretty meaningful in the ETF market. So we
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actually our x RP ETF was the biggest ETF launched
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last year, which we were very proud of because we're
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a brand new company. We're small and and and and
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we came out with the biggest ETF. So it had
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about two hundred and no sorry, two or fifty million
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day one, so very excited about that.
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That's awesome. Congrats on that. And then what is the
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feature of ETF's like for you and what are canaries plans?
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Are you planning to do index ETFs and maybe bring
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some of the traditional asset ETFs to crypto.
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Yeah, well, I mean, look, we're you know, we still
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have plans for single token ETFs, we've filed for and
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have discussed doing other indexes. We want to make sure
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that there's a really good theme before we go forward
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and launch something like that, so so we're holding off there.
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We know a lot of other people are doing indexes,
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but that's where we're holding off. And we're also looking
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at other jurisdictions that don't currently have crypto ETFs, such
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as Japan and Korea.
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Wow, that's fascinating that they don't have that as yet.
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So you already have the model here in the United States.
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You can easily take it to other jurisdictions.
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Yeah, that's right.
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Oh wow, And I'm assuming there's demand there. I you know,
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I keep up with the news as best as possible,
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and I see South Korea Japan they're very interested in
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all coins and things like that.
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Yeah, their regulations currently don't allow them to have to
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ETFs at the moment.
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But.
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The politicians in both of those countries are very keen
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on allowing it because they don't want to see their
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money going off shore.
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That makes sense. You know. One of the things I've
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been thinking about, Steve, is that China. You know, they
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historically have been kind of anti crypto, although they're warming up,
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but in Hong Kong jurisdics and day Control they allow ETFs.
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Could that rapper help preserve their capital flight worries in
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mainland China?
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You think yeah, I think so. You know, it's very
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difficult to move money in and out of China in general,
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including Hong Kong. So the rappers that exist in Hong
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Kong certainly allow a vehicle for Chinese investors to trade
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or to invest, so, you know, and I do see
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Korea and Japan looking at that model and saying, yeah,
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you know, that's a great way to keep money on shore,
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so we probably want to do something similar.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely. Do you what are your thoughts on let's say
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the Clarity Act passes, what impact them may have on ETFs?
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Do you expect more inflows because people, uh, those who
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may be on the sidelines say, we have more confidence.
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It's the rule of law that's in place for this
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asset class.
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You know, I really don't, you know, And I'm I'm
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the one percent that doesn't think it matters. So I
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don't think clarity you know. I think the Clarity Act
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is largely symbolic. I don't really think it has a
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whole lot of an impact on my business or ETFs
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in general. But it is a nice symbolic gesture, and I.
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Think, Steve, there's times I dug into that and I
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look at what the regulatory agencies are doing. As long
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as the regulatory agencies give this stamp of approval. Okay,
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whatever legislation you pass will rubber stamp everything and prevent
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a future administration from changing things. But the crux of
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the issue is the agencies have to get it done.
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Yeah, that's right. And if you look at the SEC,
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particularly Entertainment Atkins, he's really transform the SEC to allow
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you crypto ETFs, but but also a lot of other
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types of vehicles that the rule of law actually allows. Right,
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They're not trying to stop something unless there's a rule
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in place. So once that has happened, even if there's
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a change administration, even if there's a change in the commissioners,
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it's really going to be difficult to put the cat back.
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In the bag.
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Yeah, that absolutely makes sense. And the agencies have been
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doing a great job. I mean we're getting rulemaking on
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all different things, mean coins staking, which is really great.
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Speaking of staking, do you guys currently offer that and
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what type of activity are're seeing there?
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We do, so.
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Any token that we have in an ETF format, we
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do offer the ability where we do stake them, and
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we do offer that yield out to our clients. So
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I think that's a very important piece of this because
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part of you know, investing in protocols is the ability
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to actually stake to the network, vote on the network,
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and then receive the awards that the network gives you back.
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And that was a very important piece of legislation last
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year that allows us that allowed us to do that.
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And did you see that during the bear market that
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institutions investors and so forth over like you know what,
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there's not much price action, but I can stake and
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earn at passive reward.
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Yeah, that's that's exactly right. And by the way, even
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though the market's down, and it's gone down pretty significantly
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over the last year, we still continue to get inflows
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into our ETFs. So we've you know, on a net basis,
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we've seen very very few outflows and mostly inflows. And
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what that means is at this part and time, it
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shows me that a true bottom is for me.
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And as smart investors, this is the time they come
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in and take positions because you're at the lows. As
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Warren Buffett and these folks have said, buy the blood
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on the streets.
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Right, Yeah, that's exactly right. You know, there's a bit
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of blood which is which is great, but also you know,
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trying to time bottoms is very difficult, right, So when
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you're when you're timing it, when you're trying to time it,
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when the momentium is going the other way, you can
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really get hurt. But at this point in time where
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that where a bottom truly is forming and there's a
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lot of positive activity. Look, you know, crypto markets could
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go down five ten percent again, but at this level
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and what the potential is, there's asymmetric risk and reward
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here that you know, I believe there's no reason not
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to buy right now.
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Now.
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I like to look at the markets from a macro
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perspective because if you're looking at the one minute charge
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deers even or at a ten minute you're going to
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get wrecked, right, It's going to make your stomach term.
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But when you zoom out so you feel that the
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bottom is in and we might be starting in a
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larger uptrend. But there's going to be volatively, of course,
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right Parah, of.
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Course, yeah, there'll be volatility. But one of the things
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that that just occurred this week was CPI data came
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in in a very positive way for rates. So CPI
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is much lower than expected. Things quickly changed on the
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on the rate front, where the large amount of you know,
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large amount of the market does believe that there will
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be no change, which I think is good. Right now,
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the yield curve is normal again, and that's something that
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I've been waiting for. So investors actually get rewarded for
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taking longer duration risk, but it also means that investors
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get rewarded for taking risk on risk assets.
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Are there any plans on your end to look at
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tokenize acids and ETFs but also tokenizing ETOs.
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Yeah, I honestly don't think that tokenizing ETFs makes a
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whole lot of sense at this moment. It's sort of like,
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you know, you take a token, you put it in ETF,
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then you put it in a token. Yeah, you know,
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so I don't. I don't think it makes makes a
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ton of sense. I mean that's essentially what an ETF is,
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like old school total. Yeah. But where I do think
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it makes sense, there are more esoteric assets that don't
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fit neatly into an ETF or a mutual fund wrapper.
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So that's really where I think the market's going to go.
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First, do you think over time and maybe this is
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like ten years an hour or less. Real estate and
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some of these other assets are tokenized, but also in ETFs.
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Oh oh yeah, absolutely, they'll they'll be in both vehicles.
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Yeah yeah, There'll be some people that are only going
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00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:38.279
to buy ETFs, are going to be some people that
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only buy tokens, and there's a lot of room for both.
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Are there any trends that you are looking at you
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can share it. I want you to give away your
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00:09:51.120 --> 00:09:54.960
secret sauce. But like AI, AI agents, privacy and these things.
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As far as.
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Themes, yeah, I mean we've we've looked at a lot
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of those themes. A to me is a little bit overplayed.
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00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:04.080
I think there. You know, there's been a lot of
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00:10:04.120 --> 00:10:07.399
investment in the area, Electricity prices have gone up, and
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if you look at what we've actually gotten out of it,
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I mean you you have chat GBT that has a
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hallucination rate of over twenty five percent. So I can
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00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:18.120
ask it a question, I'll just make up the answer.
196
00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:24.000
Who cares? And most people are just you know, utilizing
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AI to you know, it's like sophisticated Google or to
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you know, create videos, pictures, things like that. In order
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to get to the next step, the next stage of
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AI development, it's going to take a massive amount of
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funding and a massive amount of compute and we currently
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don't have the energy to supply that. So you know,
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it's it's going to be a big rub and it
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already is in some states that are disallowing AI data
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centers because of the electricity costs going up for citizens
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of the state.
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New York just did that, I believe this week. So
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it looks like there's gonna be even more states pushing back.
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And then, you know, as far as other themes, I'm
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trying to think of others, I guess not really and
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we'll see what. You know, aside from AI agents and
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privacy and tokenization, Are you doing anything with stable coins
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or equities?
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Not really. I mean I've I've done it in the past,
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but at this point in time, there's you know, there's
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a handful of stable coins that are really winning. You know,
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how are you going to come in and compete with that?
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So I don't see a whole lot of people trying
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to do that. But you know, maybe with other currencies
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that that's that's interesting, but not on the US dollar side.
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What about equity play, So let's say Circle securitized, so
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you get these public companies that are a crypto focused,
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are you doing anything around that, No, not really, okay,
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is you're mostly focused on the tokens.
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Yeah, right now, we're mostly focused on the tokens and
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then we'll probably spread out to other themes.
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Got it. So what's on your roadmap for this here
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that you can share?
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Yeah?
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So, well, you know, I mentioned some of the tokens
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that we've filed for. You know, I think the more
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interesting things are actually out, you know, after this, or
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actually outside of crypto. So so so we're exploring, you know,
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some some other themes that are that are outside of
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crypto that's not even an AI, but but more to
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come on that later.
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Ah. Right, we're gonna have to do another interview, Stephen,
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but I appreciate you taking the time. Good to see
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you and excited for the future of Bates iron Can
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aary Capital.
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Yeah, thank you so much.
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