Fudgy vs. Cakey: A Deep Dive on Brownies with David Lebovitz

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That much further, you know.
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God, I love brownies so much.
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Um from King Arthur Baking Company, this is Things Bakers Know.
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I'm David Tamarkin, King Arthur's editorial director.
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And I'm Jessica Battalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking.
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Today, we're talking about really one of my favorite baked goods.
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Brownies.
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Yeah.
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Who doesn't love a brownie?
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They're everyone's favorite baker.
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I mean, not to take away from you and your originality.
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You are a very original person.
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However, this is one instance where your just opinion is, I think, widely shared.
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Yeah, it's a very important thing.
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Very lovable thing.
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And there are there are outliers, people who don't like them, but many people.
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I feel strongly about them.
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I feel strongly that I love them, which I hardly ever say on the show.
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We should start like a love and loath list, you know.
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But I brownies hold sort of as I don't want to say a special place in my heart, but kind of because it was like the first.
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I would I would hate to say that.
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I would hate to say that.
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I don't want to get all emotional so early in the day.
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But they were the first thing I learned how to bake.
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And I remember I had a babysitter.
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She was, you know, several years older than I was, and she probably she was actually like six months older.
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I feel like when we were kids, our babysitters were also kids.
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But she had 17, she had a subscription to 17 Magazine.
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17 Magazine for a while had a I don't want to say food section, but they did some food content.
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Yeah.
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And there was a brownie recipe in there that I saw, and I was like, I'm gonna do this.
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So I made those brownies a lot.
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And it was sort of, you know, I'm always telling beginner bakers to pick a recipe and just make it multiple times.
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Yes, get your reps in.
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But I perhaps overdid it because I made those brownies like I mean, it was all I made.
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Like I would show up, I would have brownies, but I will say I made like every possible area.
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What age are we talking about?
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I mean, I was probably 12.
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So you were showing up where?
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Oh, at the library.
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At the library?
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Oh my gosh, librarians.
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I brought the librarians brownies because that was like my hangout.
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Oh my gosh.
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I thought the librarians were my friends.
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I don't, I mean, they probably were not.
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They just were taking pity on me.
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They probably were.
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You were bringing them brownies.
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I was bringing them brownies, but I was like, you know, you learned the hard way.
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Like, what happens if I forget the eggs?
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Like, what happens if I use salt and soda sugar?
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Like, what happens if I mess up?
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Like a cup of salt?
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I don't know if I did a cup, but I I made errors, is all I'm saying.
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Like they didn't always turn out.
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But I kept coming back to that recipe.
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And I have since tried to find that, you know.
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I mean, the internet should be able to find anything.
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Yeah.
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So I've been look I've looked for that recipe.
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I don't remember exactly what was in those brownies, even though I made them so many times.
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I just remember that they were my preferred texture of brownie.
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And here's where we're getting right to the meat of the matter.
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Right, exactly.
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She was on the cover.
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A dividing line with so many people is is are you a cakey brownie person or are you a fudgy brownie person?
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Yeah.
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And I believe later in this episode we're gonna talk about the myth of the chewy brownie.
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Well, and here's where I do have an opinion, which I can say for later.
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But you know, I I am, you know, I fall into one of these camps.
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Yes.
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And as I recall, those 17 brownies, um, they were on the fudgier side.
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And, you know, there's also the question of like, do you prefer it all cocoa brownie?
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Right.
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Or do you prefer a brownie made with chocolate?
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I was just about to ask you if this was a cocoa brownie or a chocolate brown.
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I don't remember.
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Isn't that pathetic?
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I think cocoa.
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Okay.
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I think cocoa.
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But I can't say for sure.
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But I will say if you add melted chocolate instead of cocoa, you're gonna have a wetter batter, which in turn means that you will have to add more flour, right?
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Because cocoa powder like sucks moisture out of something, um, which then could result in it could result in a cakier brownie.
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I mean, that's just science.
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I do think that cocoa brownies tend to have a more intense chocolate flavor, which is weird because they don't have chocolate in them.
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It is weird.
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Um I also think that sort of that can depend sometimes on what unsweetened chocolate you use in your chocolate brownie.
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I grew up using baker's, which is not a high quality chocolate, but you know, I love the brownies I made with it.
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I mean, if they were kind of more sweet, not super chocolatey, you know, because that chocolate just didn't have there's probably a lot of co it was probably mostly cocoa butter and not cocoa in that chocolate.
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I mean, and this is a little bit of a uh divertisment I'm gonna take us on, but you know, if you eat a box brownie with your eyes closed, which I did recently actually, we were we were doing some the RD kitchen here was doing some testing and they had a bunch of box brownies because you know, of course, King Arthur has two brownie mixes, our all-American brownie mix and the gluten-free brownie mix.
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And so though they had made those brownies and then a host of other mixes um that are available on the market.
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And we were tasting them, and I was tasting them just for fun with my eyes closed.
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And quite a lot of brownie mixes, when you eat them with your eyes closed, uh, don't actually taste like chocolate at all.
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They taste sweet.
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Sweet.
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Yeah.
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I mean, and it's interesting you made the the you know the point about like the cocoa, like brownies made with cocoa, just the the cocoa butter, right?
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So cocoa butter, obviously, we've talked about this in our chocolate episode, is like a key part of chocolate.
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So cocoa brownies don't have any cocoa butter in them.
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And you know, I do think that that's where some of the texture stuff comes in because a cocoa brownie is going to be well, it it gets hard at when it's cool.
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A chocolate brownie.
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Yeah, I'm sorry.
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A melted chocolate chocolate brownie.
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It gets hard when it's cool because it's cocoa butter in it and butter solidifies.
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Yeah, including cocoa butter solidifies in cooler temperatures.
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So I think.
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I mean, and you get this density and you can't achieve a sort of chewiness that way.
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I know there are some chewy brownie recipes out there that call for chilling it and eating it sort of cold, which is sort of I don't know, I think a cheat, you know, if you're if that's how you get to the chewy texture.
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But it is true, you get it, it's a much different texture eating a melted chocolate brownie cold than at room 10 or warm.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And I do think they the a uh chocolate brownie tends to dry out a little more quickly, um, which also tracks, you know.
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So because usually using butter, which has less water, I feel like cocoa brownies sometimes use oil.
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Yeah, they do.
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So the oil is gonna keep it.
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Well, and all but I mean not all.
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I think there's probably an alt to put melted butter in box brownies, but most of them are made with oil.
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And that does give you like, you know, that texture that remains the same cold, hot.
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Um you know, so there's there is some kind of science to that.
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And you know, I think it's going to be fairly uh this is pr a statement of the obvious.
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I I probably make quite a few of them on the podcast, but if you want I mean, uh if you particularly with cocoa, but I think if you want a delicious brownie, whether it's a chocolate brownie or cocoa brownie, like you have to start with good quality chocolate or cocoa.
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Like that's gonna because there's not a lot of other stuff in brownies.
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Well, some people put extra chocolate in their brownies, and I think this is sort of a controversial point.
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Oh uh.
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You know, folding in chocolate chips or chopped chocolate at the end so that you, you know, have chips in there.
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Yeah, where do you stand on that?
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Since coming to King Arthur, uh, I've sort of been converted to folding chocolate chips or chopped chocolate into my brownies because of the nice crackly top you get, which is we've talked about on the show before.
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We I think we had a question about that during the chocolate episode.
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How do you get a crackly top, shiny, crackly top chip brownies, which everybody likes?
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Um I call that a tissue paper top.
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Oh, that's good.
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Yeah, so like I mean, I think that's it's a homemade version is never gonna be quite like what you get from a box where it's like really you get that very thin layer on top.
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Um, but I do think it's a it's a desirable quality in a brownie that people look for.
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Yeah.
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And yeah, we did, I mean, I we did talk about this before, but I don't think it hurts to say again that our, you know, our testing experience, although we can't quite explain the science of it, is that if you add additional chopped chocolate or chocolate chips to your brownie batter, at the end you fold them in and bake them like that, that does result in a tissue paper top.
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And the thought is that it is adding just a little bit of additional sugar that dissolves and makes that crap.
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So it kind of floats to the top and almost like a meringue creates like this like little super thin layer of meringue at the top of the um of the top of the brown.
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Harold McGee, if you're listening, uh let us know what's going on.
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Any any food scientists, let us know.
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I mean, although I mean that I mean we we've tested it extensively, and that's our better and we have food scientists here, and that's what that's what our theory.
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Yeah.
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Uh but so yeah, and it's nice.
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And it it certainly adds way more chocolate, true chocolate flavor, especially if you're using a good chocolate, add to your brownie.
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And so, yeah, I'm kind of into it.
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I mean, I don't I don't need it, but more is more, you know, with me.
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If I'm gonna eat a brownie, why not?
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Yeah, why not?
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I do also like a frosted brownie.
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I'm not gonna go, but I do like a frosted brownie.
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Okay, so this is where this is really wild to me.
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Because yeah, I mean, and we have we recently published a recipe for frosted brownies that were sort of a copycat recipe of the cosmic brownies that little Debbie does never had a I was I was an oatmeal pie.
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Yeah, but with every person, not a cosmic brownie person.
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Um that's totally out of realm for me.
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I do not the cosmic brownie?
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No, the frosted brownie.
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I mean, I like sugar, I but like that's really guilty.
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You know, for a pure I want to talk for a second about so again, brownies, a relatively short ingredient list.
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Yes, but I want to talk about eggs.
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Okay.
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Because in general, a fudgier brownie is going to contain fewer whole eggs, and a cakier brownie is going to contain more.
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Um, and you know, you were talking earlier about really liking chewy brownies.
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And I have I think there's a correlation between a chewy brownie and the number of egg yolks.
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Like often a chewy brownie has more egg yolks added to it.
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Yeah, which and that to me is a pretty um that's an advanced brownie recipe.
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That has separating eggs to make a brownie, I think you're in sort of advanced territory.
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Because to your point, before you you mentioned that this recipe, the 17 brownie recipe was a one bowl.
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I wasn't separating eggs.
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Right.
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I mean, most most brownie recipes are one bowl.
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Now that's sort of the appeal of them, that you can bring them together with pantry ingredients so quickly.
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If you're separating eggs, wow, you're you're committed.
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But yeah, that makes sense to me.
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I mean, again, less water, right?
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I think the egg, there's a lot of water in egg whites.
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Yeah.
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Removing that and adding keeping the fat yeah.
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Um I think sugar plays a big role in cheese brownie as well.
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Yes.
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And there's some um, there's some methods that I like.
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I really like a brownie recipe, and this is also advanced, where you simmer the butter.
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I guess I'm only seeing this done with butter.
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You wouldn't do this with oil.
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But you melt the butter in a pan, add the sugar in and let it simmer and really cook down and reduce in the pan before incorporating it into the rest of the butter.
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The canal house folks, their brownie recipe does this.
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And it's an extra step.
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And you know, you let it go for a few minutes.
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Um but you're boiling out the water in the butter, in the butter, but you're also getting the sugar to a certain temp, you know, that you might not be able to get it to otherwise.
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Because, you know, in most recipes, you're just whisking the sugar in.
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Yeah.
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So that can contribute to a really nice uh chewy texture or chewyer texture, and also also helps with that tissue paper towel.
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I mean, that's interesting.
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I've never made that recipe, although I have a very clear image in my mind of the that page in their cookbook where they've because they are a good-looking brownie.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I love brownies so much.
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Um but you know, the elephant in the room, always the elephant in the room here at King Arthur, is flour.
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And brownies are actually a bake that do not really use that much flour.
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Like just enough to hold it together.
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Just enough to hold it together.
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I think it's usually half a cup.
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I don't have to go over an eight by eight or nine by nine.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's really relying on the eggs and the fat for structure.
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And that's why I think it's really like gluten-free brownies are really great.
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Yeah.
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Because you're not counting on flour to do a ton of the like, you know, a lot of brownies have no leaver at all.
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You know, as you you like, it's sort of almost like a, you know, a flowerless cake.
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Yeah.
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Right.
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Um so if you're swapping in measure for measure or using an alternative flour, like it kind of doesn't matter that much because there's not enough, like the flour's not doing a lot of heavy lifting.
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Yeah, to add a little bit of structure.
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Um, I think that it I'm glad you said alternative flowers because flower uh brownies are a great vehicle for rye flour, yeah, spell flour, any type of buckwheat.
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You can it's hard to taste these things through all that chocolate, although I do think rye can bite through and you can get that flavor.
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But it's a great place to experiment with with other flowers.
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I believe we're going to a conversation with David Liebovitz.
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We are.
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Um, David Liebovitz, of course, is just like I mean, he's such a star baker.
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He was for a long time the pastry chef at Chez Panice.
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He has written, gosh, I don't know, I don't know how many cookbooks, but quite a few cookbooks.
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Some classics.
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Yeah, Room for Dessert, which was just reissued.
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Um we use his ice cream book in my house.
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Ice cream book.
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He's the author of My Paris Kitchen, which is a very funny recipe memoir about moving to Paris and his life there.
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Um but just like a really generous and smart baker, and he has a lot of thoughts about brownies.
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Um and it was interesting also to talk to him about like are brownies a thing in Paris.
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So um, super fun conversation, and I'm really glad he was able to join us.
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Can't wait.
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When we were talking about this episode and thinking about who to have come on, I was like, we gotta have David because uh I, you know, I mean, I think you have such a huge following on your Substack.
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Like your books are so great.
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You do so much rigorous testing of all your recipes.
00:14:37.440 --> 00:14:40.879
And I know that you are a man that knows his way around a brownie.
00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:44.320
So um I thought it would be fun for us to chat about that today.
00:14:44.639 --> 00:14:56.000
Uh and one of the first things I was thinking about is, you know, I think brownies have like a very American identity, like a very American sort of bake sale identity.
00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:58.799
And only Americans can bake them, I've learned.
00:14:59.120 --> 00:15:00.320
Well, I was gonna say to you.
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:04.080
Because I saw you said something on your Substack, you know, a few years ago.
00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:08.080
I think you wrote that you hadn't had good brownies outside of the United States.
00:15:08.240 --> 00:15:10.320
So I was sort of curious about how they're perceived.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:15.919
You now live in Paris, um, and there's a lot to recommend Paris, but perhaps brownies is not one of the things.
00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:16.559
I don't know.
00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:26.879
Well, some bakeries do have them, and there was a bakery over in my last, my previous neighborhood, and they were making the brownies, and they were really not good.
00:15:27.039 --> 00:15:29.519
And I like the bakery, so I gave them my recipe.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:31.679
I said, try this one, it's really good.
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:35.360
And then I went in there and they were like really dried out and terrible.
00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:36.000
Oh no.
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:47.679
And it's not an insult to anybody, but some things just have to be made in or by a certain person or in a certain country to taste the same way.
00:15:48.000 --> 00:15:48.240
Yeah.
00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:54.960
Well, and I, you know, because I I think like brownies are a thing that have people have like a lot of nostalgia wrapped up in.
00:15:55.039 --> 00:16:00.240
Like on the, you know, often it's like it's the first, in my case, it was like the first recipe I learned how to bake.
00:16:00.399 --> 00:16:13.279
So I I do feel, and there are other baked goods where I would say this is similar, but the brownie that you grew up with, I think sometimes like has an outside like, you know, hold on you.
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:18.879
Brown brownies sort of the like in theory, like shouldn't work.
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:24.559
It's like a very moist cake, but it's not, they're never well, they should never be dry.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.120
They hold together when you slice them.
00:16:27.200 --> 00:16:27.919
That's another thing.
00:16:28.080 --> 00:16:29.600
They can't fall apart, right?
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:34.159
But they need to be very moist, and they need to be very chocolatey.
00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:34.879
Yeah.
00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:39.440
And it's interesting because I think, you know, and we talked about this earlier in the episode.
00:16:39.600 --> 00:16:42.080
Like, I think brownies fall along a couple of lines, right?
00:16:42.159 --> 00:16:47.759
Like there are chocolate brownies, and within that, there's like the subset of like ones that are made with unsweetened chocolate.
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:49.759
And then there are cocoa brownies.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:55.600
And I think of cocoa brownies as being like particularly pantry friendly, right?
00:16:55.679 --> 00:17:00.000
Like, I don't always have unsweetened chocolate on hand, but I pretty much always have cocoa.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:03.919
Well, unsweetened chocolate is actually quite hard to find in France.
00:17:04.079 --> 00:17:13.359
Um, when I went to when I went to chocolate school in Belgium, I went to it was a chocolate company, and we used to buy their chocolate in America when I was a pastry chef.
00:17:13.519 --> 00:17:16.880
I said, How come I can't get your unsweetened chocolate here in Europe?
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:18.799
And they go, because no one uses it here.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:19.920
It's very American.
00:17:20.799 --> 00:17:29.119
Um I, you know, something that's I have noticed, like, you know, over time, obviously you've riffed on brownies like one gajillion times in your career.
00:17:29.279 --> 00:17:32.880
Um in your revised Ready for Dessert, there's a cheesecake brownie.
00:17:33.039 --> 00:17:34.079
Uh I love those.
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:40.319
And this in another book I have one with uh Dulce de Leche, which is called Kofi Churdoulet.
00:17:40.640 --> 00:17:44.640
And that was something that I came up with when I was, I just moved to France.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:49.839
And I would see these big pots of Kofi Churdoulet at cheese stores.
00:17:50.160 --> 00:17:53.279
And I was like, that looks suspiciously like Dulce de Leche.
00:17:53.839 --> 00:17:58.000
Um and it's not, you know, it's made with cow's milk rather than uh goat's milk.
00:17:58.319 --> 00:18:03.359
Goat's milk, which is infinitely better, which I think is the original, but I'm not 100% sure.
00:18:03.599 --> 00:18:07.440
But I was like, I'm gonna bake these in brownies and see how it turns out.
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:08.240
It was amazing.
00:18:08.640 --> 00:18:10.079
You dollop it on top?
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:10.880
Yeah.
00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:17.119
So that's I was gonna ask you like what are some ways to sort of like elevate a brownie without making them fussy.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:17.920
That's a very good one.
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:21.119
I think mix-ins, you know, thin mints are really good.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:23.519
I I I too love thin mints.
00:18:23.920 --> 00:18:32.480
Um I you know, um can I have a recipe in my chocolate book that's coming out for you, candied cocoa nibs that are like really crunchy.
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:32.720
Yeah.
00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:37.119
If you put them on top, they get like they provide this like crunchy, crackly crust.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:37.920
Oh yeah.
00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:41.039
Um so I think, you know, experimenting.
00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:43.519
I I like to add things to brownies.
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:45.119
I like chocolate chips in them.
00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:47.359
I like cocoa nibs, I like nuts.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:58.640
You've written a little bit about um, you know, whatever brownie formula you're following, just the importance of sort of like watching those brownies in the oven like a hawk and taking them out.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:00.079
So let's talk about that.
00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:01.839
Like, how do you know when your brownie's done?
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:03.039
What should you be going for?
00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:06.079
Because I do think an overbaked brownie is a terrible thing.
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:19.759
Well, Michael Ricuti, who's a uh chocolatier in the San Francisco Bay Area, who's a wonderful uh chocolatier and baker, he told me once, like, always take like chocolate desserts out like five or 10 minutes before the recipe says.
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:20.559
Interesting.
00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.279
And that's not an exact quote, but it's to that effect.
00:19:23.519 --> 00:19:23.680
Yeah.
00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:32.079
Um I I always tell people, you know, like when you see a recipe that says bake for 25 minutes, your oven's gonna be different than mine.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:38.559
I have two different ovens and they're both, even though I've got thermal butters and both, they bake very differently.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:39.359
Yeah.
00:19:39.680 --> 00:19:48.559
Um, so uh, you know, I I'm like, go by texture, touch it, um, and also make the same recipe over and over again.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:50.079
You're like, you know, they're burnt.
00:19:50.240 --> 00:19:51.759
Okay, how can I fix this?
00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:55.279
Have you served American-style brownies to your French friends?
00:19:55.359 --> 00:19:57.039
And are they just like, uh, we're not into it?
00:19:57.119 --> 00:19:57.839
Or do they like them?
00:19:58.160 --> 00:19:59.680
Um no, people like them.
00:19:59.839 --> 00:20:09.680
Um the great thing uh, once again, about brownies is you have the ingredients and they can be in the oven literally in 15 minutes and servable, you know, within the hour.
00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:10.079
Yeah.
00:20:10.319 --> 00:20:12.079
So um they're very easy to make.
00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:14.079
And they're who doesn't love chocolate?
00:20:14.880 --> 00:20:21.359
Unfortunately, little by little, French people are um getting more used to American foods.
00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:22.480
They're you know, for better.
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:24.480
For worse jinx.
00:20:24.960 --> 00:20:26.160
Well, do you know it's interesting.
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:31.200
Um, something like 83% of restaurants in France now have a hamburger on the menu.
00:20:31.519 --> 00:20:34.160
And that's not fast food restaurants, that's all restaurants.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:35.039
All restaurants.
00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:36.960
Well, a brownie is sure to follow.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:20:39.200
You know, it's just a few steps behind, maybe.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:40.000
I don't know.
00:20:41.119 --> 00:20:45.519
Well, you know, basically, you know, a gat a brownie is a gâteau chocolat.
00:20:45.680 --> 00:20:49.359
Um a friend of mine who lives once again also on my website.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:53.680
I have a recipe for my friend, um my friend Ellen's brownies.
00:20:53.920 --> 00:20:57.519
She made them for me when I was down in they live near Angoulen.
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.519
And I was like, oh, these are really delicious.
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:05.279
They were they sort of broke the rules for what a brownie is supposed to be supposed to be, but they were delicious.
00:21:05.440 --> 00:21:06.480
So I put the recipe up.
00:21:06.720 --> 00:21:08.160
And they're you know, they're thin.
00:21:08.319 --> 00:21:11.519
It's basically a chop thin chocolate cake batter.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.680
Um, but it's somebody's interpretation of brownies.
00:21:16.079 --> 00:21:24.559
So if you had to eat one brownie for the rest of your days, which of your recipes would you choose?
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:28.880
Um that's a really good question.
00:21:29.119 --> 00:21:33.279
Um, probably the Kate and Dave's ones is in my chocolate book.
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:33.759
Okay.
00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:36.559
Just because it's a very basic brownie.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.119
Um, but it's really, they're really, really good.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:42.720
I'm excited to try the recipe.
00:21:42.799 --> 00:21:43.920
I don't think I have made that.
00:21:44.000 --> 00:21:45.680
I have made lots of your recipes over the years.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:46.240
I love them.
00:21:46.319 --> 00:21:55.200
Some of them have become mainstains of our life, including, I know I've told you this before, but your bourbon chocolate pecan pie is a mainstay at Thanksgiving.
00:21:55.440 --> 00:21:58.799
Um, I've made your salted caramel sauce more times than I can count.
00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:03.680
Like they're just your A total, you know, a gem of a baker, a gem of a person.
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.960
And I'm excited to see the revised Great Book of Chocolate.
00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:08.559
Well, it's always a treat to talk to you.
00:22:08.640 --> 00:22:11.279
I'm sorry we only get to do it like once every 12 years.
00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:15.519
Uh, latest updated version of the Great Book of Chocolate will be out May 5th.
00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:20.000
People can find you on David Liebavitz.substack.com.
00:22:20.160 --> 00:22:22.559
We'll put links to all of that in the show notes.
00:22:22.880 --> 00:22:27.599
Um, and everyone should go and make the Dave and Cates brownies.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:49.920
And I want to just give a shout out to King Arthur, who has done an amazing job over the years just promoting bakers, helping bakers, um, being a very um aware company as well, um, making sure, you know, keeping holding people together through baking, which is so important now, especially nowadays when things have become fractured.
00:22:50.000 --> 00:23:00.880
Um, baking is something that really brings people together and is a joyful activity, but it's also, and I hate to use the word because it sounds like a cliche, but uh nourishes our soul.
00:23:01.039 --> 00:23:02.480
Um, but it's true.
00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:10.400
So thank you, King Arthur, for um, and everybody there for being such good people and helping people to become better bakers.
00:23:10.720 --> 00:23:11.359
You're the best.
00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:11.920
You're the best.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:14.640
I know.
00:23:14.880 --> 00:23:16.000
Hand me the tissues.
00:23:16.079 --> 00:23:16.240
No.
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:19.519
Uh we appreciate you, and I think we share that sentiment.
00:23:19.759 --> 00:23:23.200
Um thank you, and let's talk again soon.
00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:30.720
This episode is sponsored by Curio Spice Company, a woman-owned mission-driven spice company.
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:32.240
And let me tell you something, Jessica.
00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:36.880
If you are somebody who thinks that spices and brownies do not go together, listen up.
00:23:37.279 --> 00:23:42.640
The Delot Spice they sell, it's a blend of coffee, cocoa nibs, cinnamon, star Nice.
00:23:42.880 --> 00:23:44.799
I'm sorry, I would put all of those things my brownie.
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:45.680
It sounds delicious.
00:23:45.839 --> 00:23:48.400
From now on, my brownies are spiced brownies.
00:23:48.720 --> 00:23:49.839
They're Delot brownies.
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:52.160
And they're Delatish.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:23:55.920
Okay, at least I got you to laugh.
00:23:56.160 --> 00:23:57.519
Listeners just turned off the podcast.
00:23:57.759 --> 00:24:04.799
You know what I also like to do to my brownies is, you know, and chocolate chip cookies, but sprinkle them with a little flaky salt at the end.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:10.880
And Curio Spice Company has that delicious cypress salt, you know, the big flake, which is a really nice finishing touch.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:12.720
Why is salt and chocolate so great together?
00:24:12.880 --> 00:24:14.720
We should talk about that on a future episode.
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:19.839
You can find lots of Curios Company spices at KingArthurbaking.com.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.079
And of course, you can find their full collection at Curiospice.com.
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.440
C-U-R-I-O-Spice.com.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.400
This episode is brought to you by Supernatural.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:41.519
Supernatural makes sprinkles, food colors, and flavors that are completely colored by plants, fully traceable, and totally free from anything artificial or synthetic.
00:24:41.839 --> 00:24:43.279
And it's just a proven fact.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:48.000
It is just a proven fact that sprinkles make everything more fun.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:54.559
So you can add them to your pancake batter, you can sprinkle them on your ice cream, and of course, you can use them to top a frosted cake.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:24:56.160
Yeah, or a brownie.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:57.200
Or a brownie.
00:24:57.680 --> 00:25:00.240
There's a very popular brownie out there that has sprinkles on it.
00:25:00.400 --> 00:25:02.880
I don't mess with that, but I will mess with this.
00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:09.440
Supernatural Sprinkles, food colors, flavors, and more at kingarthurbaking.com.
00:25:09.519 --> 00:25:13.440
And the full line is available at supernaturalkitchen.com.
00:25:17.200 --> 00:25:23.039
This episode is brought to you by our best-selling gluten-free budge brownie mix.
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:25.359
And here's a little secret for you, David.
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:31.279
This is my favorite brownie mix, despite the fact that I am not gluten-free.
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:32.559
And I'm not alone.
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.400
People love these brownies, no matter their dietary preferences.
00:25:36.480 --> 00:25:41.920
They're fudgy, tender, super decadent, easy enough for my 12-year-old to make them.
00:25:42.000 --> 00:25:44.400
It's the thing he always requests that I bring back.
00:25:44.880 --> 00:25:50.799
I have a little secret, you know, because I am not gluten-free, I do like to hack this mix a little bit.
00:25:51.200 --> 00:25:52.160
I know, you do.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:26:05.279
So, you know, I'm just gonna offer my tip, which is that I like to add a couple of tablespoons of all-purpose flour to our gluten-free brownie mix, which I think gives it for me the ultimate texture.
00:26:05.440 --> 00:26:11.839
So, you know, people might want to try that, but they're also perfect as written if you are following a gluten-free diet.
00:26:12.160 --> 00:26:14.720
There really is a cult around these brownies.
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:20.640
Like my sister is gluten-free and she oh sorry, gluten-free.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:22.720
We got some comments on my pronunciation of gluten.
00:26:23.200 --> 00:26:23.759
T, not a D.
00:26:23.920 --> 00:26:24.559
Yeah, great.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:28.319
Um, and she and her friends are now obsessed with this brownie.
00:26:28.400 --> 00:26:32.240
And like you said, those who eat gluten and those who do not, they all love this brownie.
00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:33.599
Yeah, it's a great brownie.
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:39.599
And you can find the mix on our website, but it's also available on grocery store shelves around the country.
00:26:39.839 --> 00:26:40.559
The blue box.
00:26:40.799 --> 00:26:41.440
The blue box.
00:26:41.599 --> 00:26:42.240
Yeah.
00:26:43.920 --> 00:26:46.799
It's time for our next segment, Ask the Bakers.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:49.039
For Ask the Bakers, we want to hear from you.
00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:56.960
If you have a baking question for us, head to KingArthurBaking.com forward slash podcast to record a voice message, and we may end up using it on the show.
00:26:57.119 --> 00:27:00.960
That's kingarthurbaking.com forward slash podcast.
00:27:01.200 --> 00:27:09.519
And of course, if you simply cannot wait, you can always reach out to us at our bakers hotline via phone, email, or online chat.
00:27:09.680 --> 00:27:23.839
Just go to kingarthurbaking.com slash bakers dash hotline, that's slash bakers dash hotline, or call us 855-371-2253, that's two two five three as in D-A-K-E.
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.000
Let's hear our brownie questions.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.799
Hi, this is Julie from Winchester, Massachusetts.
00:27:31.279 --> 00:27:37.200
I prefer fudgy brownies, um, but I don't like them when they're kind of raw inside.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.279
What makes a brownie more fudgy versus cakey?
00:27:42.000 --> 00:27:42.240
Okay.
00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:47.839
You know, I mean, this sounds sort of silly at the onset.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:49.519
Like, you don't like a raw brownie.
00:27:49.599 --> 00:27:54.400
Of course you don't like a raw brownie, but in fact, I think a lot of people do like an underbaked brownie that sort of is almost like molten.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:55.279
Yeah, they do.
00:27:55.519 --> 00:27:57.839
I don't know what the food safety on that is, so I'm not gonna comment.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:05.440
Yeah, I mean, and we talked in the top of the show a lot about sort of like the what makes a fudgy versus a cakey brownie.
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:07.759
So I I think hopefully we've answered that question.
00:28:08.079 --> 00:28:19.839
But do you know what there is one thing we didn't talk about though, which is we talked about flour, but it's the f the amount of flour does I think have a big impact on whether it's fudgy or cakey.
00:28:19.920 --> 00:28:26.240
And if you have a fudgy brownie recipe that you want to make cakier, you can just throw in some more flour, it will make it cakier.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:26.880
It will.
00:28:27.119 --> 00:28:27.680
That's that's true.
00:28:27.920 --> 00:28:29.680
I it will, it will.
00:28:30.000 --> 00:28:31.279
I see skepticism on your face.
00:28:31.680 --> 00:28:37.200
No, I also think we didn't I don't see many brownies that use this method anymore.
00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:53.519
But you know, if you were to treat your butter and sugar for a brownie the way that you do for a cake, like if you were to cream butter and sugar and then add in the other ingredients that you you know, you would end up with something cakier because you're using a, you know, a a technique that incorporates air.
00:28:53.680 --> 00:28:54.000
Right.
00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:56.480
Um, so it's about the leavening.
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:09.519
Because also if you throw in some chemical leavening to your brownies, you're gonna get a cake or brownie because again, same reason why doing the creaming gives you a cake or brownie, it's gonna add a little off a little off to the exactly.
00:29:09.680 --> 00:29:22.240
Um, but I do think, you know, the question about doneess is is not a silly question because I do think it can be hard, especially if you get, you know, a brownie that gets that sort of you know, crackly top.
00:29:22.480 --> 00:29:29.759
It can be hard, and you know, like the toothpick test, like sometimes you insert the toothpick and then that crackly top like basically wipes your toothpick clean.
00:29:29.920 --> 00:29:33.599
It can be hard to tell when it's done enough, but not too done.
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:34.319
It can't.
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:36.559
You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie.
00:29:36.799 --> 00:29:38.480
You don't want a clean toothpick out of a brownie.
00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:40.160
Let's go to our next question.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:45.759
Hi, this is London, calling from Falmouth, Maine.
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:51.279
Love your show, especially our hometown baking hero, Jessica.
00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:54.400
I'm calling with a question about cocoa.
00:29:54.799 --> 00:29:58.079
What kind of cocoa is best for brownies?
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:00.480
Can't wait to hear you guys chat about that.
00:30:00.880 --> 00:30:01.119
Thanks.
00:30:03.759 --> 00:30:05.599
This is this is a great question.
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:08.000
And we've talked about cocoa powder before.
00:30:08.319 --> 00:30:21.519
I think, you know, in in some cases, there is like a functional reason to use a natural cocoa versus a Dutch processed cocoa, you know, versus a black cocoa, because they do interact with the leaveners differently.
00:30:21.759 --> 00:30:29.440
In the case of brownies, that's not really coming into play because like they typically have little, if any, chemical leavener added.
00:30:29.759 --> 00:30:31.599
So what we're really talking about here is flavor.
00:30:31.759 --> 00:30:32.319
Yep.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:38.000
And so you can use any, so technically you can use any cocoa you want in a brownie, really.
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:39.839
It just comes down to flavor.
00:30:39.920 --> 00:30:43.200
And I also think for me, kind of comes down to color too.
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:48.640
Like some of these, you know, a natural cocoa, which is can be very light brown, almost reddish.
00:30:48.799 --> 00:30:49.039
Yes.
00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:54.160
You know, uh, it's gonna give you a brownie that to my eyes, it's not gonna be that appealing.
00:30:54.240 --> 00:30:56.079
Uh oh, yeah, it just doesn't look as dark.
00:30:57.200 --> 00:30:59.119
It's gonna be look like a pale brownie, perhaps.
00:30:59.200 --> 00:31:05.200
And then uh black cocoa on the other end of the spectrum, I think has an intensity that I'm just not looking for.
00:31:05.279 --> 00:31:10.240
And my brownie is also gonna make it jet black, which again is not what I'm looking for aesthetically.
00:31:10.319 --> 00:31:12.160
So I, you know, if I was just go by looks.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:14.079
I just I knew it.
00:31:14.400 --> 00:31:15.039
It's very shallow.
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.640
I'm just here for the looks of the brownie.
00:31:16.799 --> 00:31:22.319
Well, the black cocoa gives things like uh, you know, almost like the the I describe it as the flavor of like an Oreo cookie.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:26.079
Like it's it is that sort of like intense, almost bitter.
00:31:26.240 --> 00:31:26.480
Yeah.
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:27.599
Um it's delicious.
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:28.799
I love it, but it's not a good thing.
00:31:28.960 --> 00:31:36.960
I wouldn't use a hundred percent black cocoa for well, and you know, Alice was telling me that she makes like pastes of cocoa and eats them plain.
00:31:37.200 --> 00:31:37.839
Oh, interesting.
00:31:38.079 --> 00:31:41.119
You know, just to get a sense of what the cocoa is, the quality of it.
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:43.039
You know, I mean, and she's like a super taster.
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:43.279
Yeah.
00:31:43.440 --> 00:31:54.079
But I was thinking, you know, it's not a terrible idea for a home baker to kind of be thinking about that way because they really do have differences in flavor, you know, from brand to brand.
00:31:54.240 --> 00:32:00.720
Um, you know, natural versus Dutch process, like there's gonna be different levels of acidity, like they will have different flavors.
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:10.000
So, you know, her advice was like, well, figure out what cocoa you like the flavor of and let that guide you, which is, I mean, obvious, but nobody does it and very smart, I think.
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:10.400
Yeah.
00:32:10.559 --> 00:32:21.519
Um, when I make brownies, I usually use our um double dark cocoa because I feel like that's a sort of a it's a combination of natural and Dutch processed cocoa.
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:24.400
Um, and I think that has a really nice balanced flavor.
00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:30.720
If you wanted something that has some of that black cocoa, our triple cocoa blend is a combination of all three.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:33.680
So natural, Dutch process, and black cocoa.
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:34.640
And that's what I use.
00:32:34.799 --> 00:32:35.279
Oh, it is?
00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:35.680
Yeah.
00:32:35.839 --> 00:32:36.000
Okay.
00:32:36.160 --> 00:32:38.720
I mean, I just think that, and I think that's the answer.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:51.839
Like, well, you can use whatever cocoa you want, but a blend is gonna give you a nice uh combination of elements of some different uh cocos, and it's gonna add some nice nuance and the perfect amount of color to your brownie.
00:32:52.160 --> 00:32:57.680
So, and if you're not, if you can't find a blend, I would say you can just the Hershey's cocoa on the it's gonna be fine.
00:32:57.839 --> 00:33:04.559
Like any cocoa powder that you get on the grocery store, I think on the typical grocery store shelf, it's gonna work in your brownie just fine.
00:33:04.720 --> 00:33:05.920
Yeah, I mean, it'll definitely work.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:12.799
And I do think, like I said earlier in the show, I mean, the better the flavor of the cocoa, the better the flavor of the brownie.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:14.880
Yeah, you get what with chocolate, you get what you pay for.
00:33:15.279 --> 00:33:15.599
It's true.
00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:17.200
I mean, we talked about that in the chocolate episode.
00:33:17.839 --> 00:33:23.599
It's not necessarily cheap time for chocolate, but it's also for some people a more affordable luxury.
00:33:23.680 --> 00:33:27.920
So yeah, you could you can spring for the one level up of cocoa, it's gonna make a big difference.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:29.279
Yeah, I agree.
00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:31.759
Um, let's hear our next question.
00:33:32.720 --> 00:33:38.880
I see some recipes for brownies that use oil and some recipes that use butter in them.
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:42.640
How are they different and which one's the actual best version?
00:33:43.039 --> 00:33:56.319
I said earlier something about like, well, better is objective, and you were like, I don't know, I just I don't I am a 100% butter brownie person, um, with the exception of when I'm making a box mix.
00:33:56.480 --> 00:33:59.279
I actually did make our all-American brownie mix the other day.
00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:07.119
I had it in the cabinet, and uh my husband had made some gelato, and I was like, well, you can't eat gelato without a carb.
00:34:07.279 --> 00:34:09.519
Um so I was like, I'll just make this brownie mix.
00:34:09.679 --> 00:34:13.440
And in that mix, you do have the option of using melted butter or oil.
00:34:13.599 --> 00:34:18.400
And I chose oil because that to me is the vibe of a boxed brownie.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:26.320
Like it's kind of gonna keep the you know, it's gonna keep it uh fresher for longer, or the texture's gonna stay uh for longer.
00:34:26.480 --> 00:34:27.760
It's gonna be a little chewier.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:29.119
So that's fine.
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:32.400
When I'm going for boxed brownie realness, I'm I'll choose oil.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:36.960
But if I'm making a brownie from scratch, I've never even heard of using oil in a brownie from scratch.
00:34:37.119 --> 00:34:38.559
You know, I always use butter.
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:43.440
Um I will say though, you know, that there was a the previous question about doneess.
00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:52.000
And I will say that the margin of error with a butter brownie versus the margin of error with an oil brownie is a little narrower, right?
00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:54.320
Like I think you have to nail the bake on a butter brownie.
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.159
You can because you're saying you can dry it out.
00:34:56.400 --> 00:34:56.960
You can dry it out.
00:34:57.039 --> 00:34:58.960
And in fact, I did this just the other day.
00:34:59.119 --> 00:35:03.760
I made um, well, you know, I was gonna take the fall for this, but in fact, it was my wife that overbaked them.
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:04.320
So yeah.
00:35:04.400 --> 00:35:04.960
Let's start with that.
00:35:05.119 --> 00:35:06.320
So they were slightly overbaked.
00:35:06.400 --> 00:35:06.559
Yeah.
00:35:06.719 --> 00:35:09.280
Um, not tragically overbaked, but slightly overbaked.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.760
And they, you know, they were a little dry.
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.719
And then, of course, the next day there were some left over and and they were drier still.
00:35:17.119 --> 00:35:23.840
But honestly, we revitalized those with a like a quick um hit in the microwave and a scoop of ice cream.
00:35:24.079 --> 00:35:24.639
That's what I'm saying.
00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:26.000
Like you're gonna put ice cream on it.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:27.440
Like it's like who cares?
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:29.599
I mean, you know, were they a little drier?
00:35:29.760 --> 00:35:30.000
Sure.
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:32.880
But I think the flavor of butter is superior.
00:35:33.199 --> 00:35:33.599
It wins.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:34.159
It wins.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:36.639
It's gonna win any arm wrestling competition.
00:35:36.719 --> 00:35:39.679
So if this question comes up again, always butter is the answer.
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:40.159
Right.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:41.440
That is the definitive answer.
00:35:41.519 --> 00:35:42.719
That is correct answer.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:44.320
There is no other way.
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:44.639
No.
00:35:44.960 --> 00:35:45.519
Just choose butter.
00:35:45.760 --> 00:35:46.719
Just choose butter.
00:35:46.960 --> 00:35:48.320
Um great.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:48.800
Okay.
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:49.679
All right.
00:35:49.760 --> 00:35:51.920
So that's my David opinion.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:35:53.360
All butter and brownies.
00:35:53.679 --> 00:35:56.480
But you're always trying to edit opinions, aren't you?
00:35:56.880 --> 00:35:57.119
I'm not.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:35:57.760
I'm not.
00:35:57.840 --> 00:35:58.559
You want a new segment.
00:35:59.199 --> 00:35:59.920
No, I don't.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.440
I'm setting up, um, this is my transition into the most important segment of all of our podcasts.
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:11.360
Every week we like to check in with Jessica to see what wildly surprising and full-throated ideas are in her head.
00:36:11.519 --> 00:36:14.400
A segment we lovingly call Jess Opinions.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:17.280
Jessica, it's all about you.
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:20.159
What is your just opinion about brownies?
00:36:20.639 --> 00:36:24.400
This one I think I want to have some discussion with you because I actually don't know where you stand on this.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:26.320
Oh, oh, I'm allowed to speak in this segment now?
00:36:26.639 --> 00:36:27.519
Okay, let's do it.
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:28.880
I'm tapping you in.
00:36:29.119 --> 00:36:35.840
Uh, you know, our test kitchen worked down a recipe for something that is quite popular.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:40.400
And it was sort of surprising that we didn't already have a recipe for it, which is brownie brittle.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:54.079
So brownie brittle, for those who I don't know, I've just come out of a seven-year coma, are is you know, brownie batter that's spread very thinly in a pan.
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.039
And the point is to make it like a crack, like a cookie.
00:36:59.440 --> 00:37:02.000
Like a like dry and crumbly.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:04.559
I'm already ti I'm already tipping my hand.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:08.559
I would have said crispy.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:09.039
Yeah.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:14.320
Yeah, you would have said crispy and I would have said dry and crumbly because here's where I give the just opinion.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:15.840
I hate brownie brittle.
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:17.440
Oh, you hate it?
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:18.239
I hate it.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:18.639
No.
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:22.320
I just think it may it's everything that's good about a brownie.
00:37:22.880 --> 00:37:29.599
I mean, if you are a lover of a fudgy brownie, what business does brownie brittle have in your life?
00:37:30.000 --> 00:37:32.320
I think you're getting caught up in the name a little bit too much.
00:37:32.639 --> 00:37:32.800
Well.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:41.760
I mean, like if if someone gave you a plate of brownie brittle and said, here's Dusty chocolate crumbs, I'd still say, no, thank you.
00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:43.360
Yeah, well, yes, if they said that.
00:37:43.440 --> 00:37:47.679
But if they said here's here's my chocolate crispy chocolate cookie edges.
00:37:48.159 --> 00:37:53.119
Or my here's here are my thin, crispy chocolate bars.
00:37:54.239 --> 00:37:54.480
No.
00:37:54.880 --> 00:37:55.440
I don't think so.
00:37:55.599 --> 00:37:55.920
I don't know.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.440
I think there's something sort of addictive about them.
00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:59.920
They're sort of like like potato chips, they're crispy.
00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:01.119
I like the texture.
00:38:01.360 --> 00:38:03.679
Um, they're they're sweet and chocolatey.
00:38:03.760 --> 00:38:07.280
And I I I I think we've discussed this on the show recently.
00:38:07.440 --> 00:38:10.480
I'm like really into biscotti right now, and so like they're not that far from the colour.
00:38:10.639 --> 00:38:13.599
You're really pushing your Italian first gelato, now biscotti.
00:38:13.679 --> 00:38:14.079
Like, we get it.
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:15.199
You must come back in Italy.
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:17.920
We get it.
00:38:18.000 --> 00:38:19.119
You took a Roman holiday.
00:38:19.280 --> 00:38:19.679
Yeah, right.
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:20.000
I did.
00:38:20.079 --> 00:38:22.960
And then I'm just like, no, but even before that, I was getting into biscotti.
00:38:23.039 --> 00:38:24.639
I know I got the texture thing, yeah.
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:24.880
Yeah.
00:38:25.039 --> 00:38:33.599
Like I want, I would appreciate uh if every time I got a cup of coffee anywhere, they put a little brownie brittle on the.
00:38:33.840 --> 00:38:34.719
Oh, yeah, I would love that.
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:35.039
Sure.
00:38:35.199 --> 00:38:36.000
Oh, interesting.
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:36.320
Yeah.
00:38:36.559 --> 00:38:38.639
I feel like sometimes soft with my coffee.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:42.320
Sometimes these Jess opinions lead me to some self-discovery.
00:38:42.880 --> 00:38:46.400
And I was just thinking, like, do I like a crunchy chocolate thing?
00:38:46.639 --> 00:38:47.760
I love a biscotti.
00:38:48.239 --> 00:38:49.840
But do I like a chocolate biscotti?
00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:50.719
I don't know that I do.
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:52.880
So maybe this is a blanket statement.
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:55.360
So would you like blondie brittle?
00:38:57.679 --> 00:38:58.400
Does that exist?
00:38:58.559 --> 00:38:58.880
I don't know.
00:38:59.039 --> 00:39:01.840
I mean, it's like a thin we shouldn't we should invent this recipe.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.960
I'm gonna call the test kitchen as soon as we finish this episode.
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:06.239
Get it in the pipeline.
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:12.159
I mean, blondie brittle, it's like a thin and crispy butterscotchy type things.
00:39:12.320 --> 00:39:13.440
Oh, I think this is a good idea.
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:14.400
I think this has legs.
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.840
Okay, Sarah Jampel.
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.320
We took a negative and turned it into a positive.
00:39:18.559 --> 00:39:19.280
We did, we did.
00:39:19.360 --> 00:39:20.559
I mean, it's a new year, new us.
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:23.039
Maybe you should bring me into chess opinion a little bit more.
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:24.159
I guess so.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:33.599
Um, well, what are you um if if not brownie brittle, if not gelato, if not biscotti, what are you baking this week?
00:39:33.840 --> 00:39:38.079
Oh, uh pizza, lasagna, craciopepe.
00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.960
You know, you know, you're just method acting your way through the Italian canon.
00:39:43.360 --> 00:39:50.000
Um actually uh on my list for this week is I believe this is a Swedish bake.
00:39:50.159 --> 00:39:51.760
I'm gonna have to double check that.
00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:54.400
Rossi is double checking that as Nordic bake.
00:39:54.639 --> 00:39:55.360
Nordic bake.
00:39:55.599 --> 00:40:02.559
And um, we have had uh some comments in on the podcast, you know, some reviews, which we read the reviews.
00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:03.360
Thank you for the reviews.
00:40:03.440 --> 00:40:04.480
Please send more reviews.
00:40:04.639 --> 00:40:08.719
Even the ones that criticize my pronunciation of things like the word gluten.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:10.559
Oh, I didn't I didn't read that one.
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:11.360
Norwegian.
00:40:11.519 --> 00:40:13.039
Okay, so so this is a Norwegian bake.
00:40:13.119 --> 00:40:13.840
Thank you, Rossi.
00:40:13.920 --> 00:40:15.679
Uh, and I'm gonna attempt to pronounce this.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:17.199
I will probably, but you're it, I apologize.
00:40:17.519 --> 00:40:19.039
The Norwegians are just Norway.
00:40:19.360 --> 00:40:21.280
They're at their keyboards right now, ready to write in.
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:22.480
Go on, go on.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:24.000
Solskin bowler.
00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:24.719
I think that's right.
00:40:25.440 --> 00:40:26.079
Solskin bowler.
00:40:26.400 --> 00:40:27.920
Otherwise known as sun buns.
00:40:28.079 --> 00:40:30.719
These are wildly delicious.
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:39.920
I mean, it's a soft, um, sweet uh yeasted dough with a you know sort of yellow pastry cream in the middle.
00:40:40.079 --> 00:40:42.559
It looks like this very sunny looking uh scent.
00:40:43.119 --> 00:40:45.360
Just yellow from like the addition of egg yolks.
00:40:46.079 --> 00:40:46.239
Yeah.
00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:47.519
Um it's not a lemon.
00:40:47.840 --> 00:40:49.280
It's not a lemon thing.
00:40:49.440 --> 00:40:51.760
Uh where was I when these were being developed?
00:40:52.079 --> 00:40:53.360
It's a vanilla custard.
00:40:53.519 --> 00:41:02.719
Um and uh this the um recipe we have on our site comes from uh Trine Hanman who wrote Scandinavian Bacon, which is a great book.
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:05.440
I've made some cookies from that book and they're really good.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:08.719
So anyway, I was I grabbed one in the test kitchen.
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:16.320
I don't know where you were, I think I was I was here by myself, and I just grabbed six sun buns, you know, and ate them trying in the closet and it made me feel better.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:18.320
Uh they are they are so good.
00:41:18.480 --> 00:41:22.000
And um, you know, we're not quite in spring or summer yet.
00:41:22.079 --> 00:41:23.360
So in Vermont we're not.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:23.519
No.
00:41:23.760 --> 00:41:25.599
And this is what I think the hardest time of the year.
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:25.920
Yeah.
00:41:26.159 --> 00:41:35.119
Because, you know, elsewhere, say, like, you know, our our one of our producers lives in California and she's all like, oh, strawberries, like, oh, rhubarb's old nukes.
00:41:35.199 --> 00:41:35.280
Yeah.
00:41:35.920 --> 00:41:41.199
And meanwhile, back here we're still eating like root vegetables now with now with sprouts, you know.
00:41:41.519 --> 00:41:47.199
So to channel some of that Rossi energy, I'm making sunbuns to sort of, you know, get ready for spring.
00:41:47.360 --> 00:41:48.480
Yeah, that sounds great.
00:41:48.639 --> 00:41:54.800
Um, I, you know, I'm in a, of course, like a similar position where you're just like, you're waiting and you're waiting and you're waiting, and it's not happening.
00:41:55.039 --> 00:41:57.280
Um, and so what to do but eat more cheese.
00:41:57.440 --> 00:42:02.239
No, yeah, there's a recipe on our site, and it's uh it's bulking season.
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:03.440
Yeah, it's bulking season.
00:42:03.599 --> 00:42:06.960
It's a Yotam Odolengi recipe for these.
00:42:07.199 --> 00:42:09.679
Again, I'm gonna do my best on the pronunciation.
00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:11.679
It's a cheese and mint kaok.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:13.360
Oh, K-A Apostrophe A K.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:14.000
So good.
00:42:14.239 --> 00:42:17.760
And it's um, you know, it's a like a bread pocket.
00:42:17.920 --> 00:42:20.079
Well, it's how do I describe it?
00:42:20.159 --> 00:42:21.599
Why am I having trouble with the words?
00:42:21.760 --> 00:42:23.519
It is a stuffed bread, is what it is.
00:42:23.760 --> 00:42:28.960
Um, and it's stuffed with grated halloumi cheese, which I love, one of my favorites, like salty.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:37.360
That's mixed with cream cheese, but it also has fresh mint added to it, which I think I feel like fresh mint is like a nice sort of gateway herb right now.
00:42:37.440 --> 00:42:44.239
Like you can get it at the grocery store even at this time of year when there's nothing really fresh and green, and it does bring the sort of vibrancy.
00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:44.480
Yeah.
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:51.039
And then they get coated in sesame seeds and pan and baked like that.
00:42:51.119 --> 00:42:59.599
So they are a little crunchy on the outside, and they have the salty cheese, and they're they're fun to make, and they're just like a great little snack or like side dish to a meal.
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:00.000
Yeah.
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:05.599
Um, while we wait for spring and wait and wait and wait.
00:43:07.840 --> 00:43:12.559
And while we're waiting, we thank you for tuning in and joining us here on Things Bakers Know.
00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:16.719
Please remember to like us, subscribe to us if you don't subscribe already.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:18.480
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00:43:18.639 --> 00:43:20.159
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00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:25.920
And please leave a review wherever you listen: Apple Podcasts, YouTube, Spotify, Amazon Music.
00:43:26.159 --> 00:43:27.519
Or where you watch, you know, we're out here.
00:43:27.679 --> 00:43:28.239
Or where you watch.
00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:30.880
We're out here on video uh videos now.
00:43:31.119 --> 00:43:34.960
Uh and leave us a review while you're there or share an episode with a friend.
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:35.599
Yep.
00:43:35.920 --> 00:43:39.920
And remember, folks, do not forget, always follow the recipe.
00:43:40.159 --> 00:43:43.840
Things Bakers Know is hosted and executive produced by me, David Tamorkin.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:45.280
And me, Jessica Battalana.
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:51.280
Rossi and Astapulo is our senior producer, Chat Ch and I is our producer, and Marcus Bagala is our engineer.
00:43:51.519 --> 00:43:53.760
Original music by Megan and Marcus Bagala.
00:43:54.079 --> 00:43:56.960
Thanks again to David Libovitz for appearing on today's episode.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:43:59.519
You can find more about him and his work at David.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.840
Liebavits.com.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:06.320
Things Bakers Know is a King Arthur Baking Company podcast.