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Welcome to There Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate.
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I'm your host, Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe, and I'm joined by my co-hosts Odette Barry and Sanaya Kissby.
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Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
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And we use this to remind ourselves, and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment.
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So let's have some fun.
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We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands.
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And pay special recognition for the Bungelung Nations and Warundry Country where this podcast is created.
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This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia.
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And our thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership.
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Hello, my friends.
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Hi.
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Hi, so Vic, Sanaya.
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How is everything in your world?
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What's been going on?
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It has been a massive couple of weeks.
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I am thrilled to have survived, basically.
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We launched our new three-year plan at Weller.
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We had our 10-year anniversary event.
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We've had um lots of coffees and catch-ups with the founders and with key supporters.
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Uh, we just had a major new leadership program for um women in local government that we held in Victoria a week ago.
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It has been relentless, but it's all the good things, right?
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This is what you want to be doing, but it's all totally.
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Vic, what's involved in that um local government leadership program?
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So we run leadership programs um that support women and gender-diverse people who work on climate and environmental issues from any kind of sector, but this particular program we designed with inputs from people working in the local government sector here in Victoria.
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And we did this one as a different program.
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Usually our programs run over about four days.
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They are residential, they're held in a natural environment, so you're connected to nature, you've got that kind of perspective.
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This was our first ever non-residential, so two and a half days in Melbourne, but you could go home at night.
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And the intention is it makes it more accessible.
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Uh, so for people who have who don't have the time to commit to such a big program, but who also have other um caring responsibilities in particular, it makes for a more accessible model.
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So that was a first time we've tried that.
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It worked really well.
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Yeah, what was the feedback?
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Yeah, really positive, really positive.
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There'd been a lot of great work to line it up with the needs of the sector.
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We've run a few programs with local government, so we knew what we were getting into, but first time designed in this way and um really great, lovely partners uh and an amazing cohort.
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Yeah, exciting.
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Did you notice a difference between the residential and the doing it over two days and people going home to the landing of ideas, have people having space to decompress?
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Was there any difference?
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Um I think there would have been some differences.
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I think the key, it's hard to tell how do ideas land after a short period of time.
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You can never really see immediate results.
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Some sometimes it takes you months to reflect on what you've experienced and been through.
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The the difference though is it's not as immersive, right?
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But it is much more accessible.
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And um, for people who aren't looking for that level of immersive, it's a shorter program.
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Uh, it just you've you've just got to have different offerings for different sorts of audiences and needs, but you can't get through all the same sort of material either.
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You've got to be really aware um of how you manage that time.
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Always trade-offs.
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Um, and Sanaya, you have been radiantly um energized, I hear.
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I'm like week four of sick.
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I'm so over it.
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And I'm a miserable sick person as well.
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So it's just but sinus and ear infections, Lily.
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No joke.
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You feel like you have like just a body of water in your head and you have to lie down constantly.
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Your body's just fighting this thing.
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Um, I I I fully subscribe to man flu and ginormous baby experience of being sick.
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So uh my deepest um empathy to you in your experience.
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Yeah, my 18 month old is handling things far better than I am.
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I can say that.
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But this is this is his fault, yeah.
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This is absolutely it absolutely is.
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I thought I don't yeah, he came down really hard a month ago, and the first week I was like, great, I'm not sick.
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This has never happened before, and then I got it, and here I am.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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And you can't um send back to the manufacturer with these ones, unfortunately.
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So I I I do apologize for what you've been navigating, and also like I'm I'm curious to know what a gal like you does in downtime because that would be a lot of reality TV and scrolling on social media.
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You're a long form scroller.
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What's that look like for you?
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Well, I um I watched the ABC South Australian election results.
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Um set my little heart aflutter.
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So it was really that was it was I I could I just couldn't tear myself away, actually.
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Um, as I'm sure many of us were feeling.
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Probably the same sort of dopamine um response to doom scrolling on TikTok for eight hours straight.
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So yeah, literally.
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I also re-watched my favorite seasons of Bridgeton and I read The Names, which is a really great book.
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If you have heard of it, not heard of it, you should read it.
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It's wonderful.
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It's getting lots of accolades.
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Um, came out last year and is an incredible, credi, incredible way of storytelling, actually.
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Yum.
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Great.
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Well, I had the good fortune of stepping away from agency life for a couple of days and coming down to Melbourne for progress.
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Um very much a mind-bendy, stretchy, expansive time for me.
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I think like yeah, that's one.
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And I think the the combination of having the unions, policy monks, communication nerds, and social change leaders in one space is yeah, like that's my kind of crack, I think.
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But just being so deeply stimulated and excited and and hearing, you know, like it's interesting.
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I feel like I'm at this this point in my journey of change making and the the naivety and hope and optimism of this chapter at the beginning of my journey.
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And when you're in a room like that, there's a real mixed bag.
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There's people who are defeated, who have run that many campaigns and had their heart broken.
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There's people who've had a small win here, and that's enough to ignite them for another decade, or you know, and and you sit in those spaces and feel like there's there's hope and there's opportunity, and you can you kind of almost for me working in communications really get validated in the power and the opportunity of this field of work in particular as it relates to change making.
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So yeah, there were definitely some real standout stories for me.
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I think um hearing uh a case study from um Sam Lewis, who talked about uh the flying bats and uh their which is not actually an animal, it's a sports club um that uh celebrates um uh women and gender diverse people in their club.
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And they ran a campaign to um advocate for trans women in sport, and it was really, really fascinating seeing how they navigated that with really clever, kind, gentle, upbeat, positive messaging.
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And it just across the thread of the whole two days, this message of kindness and compassion in the messages of how we communicate with people just kept getting getting thread through and validated for me.
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And I feel like that is a real challenge to actually master is to find the positive message in really difficult conversations and to still make it cut through.
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Um, because we can all find the positive message for sure, but finding one that will compete in the clickbait world, which I'm excited about having our guest Holly on today because she's someone that I admired greatly because I feel like as a comms nerd, I've been watching the campaigns and projects that she's worked on for a couple of years now.
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And I do think she's someone that has been able to translate messages in a really positive light.
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We had quite a number of our team who were at progress, and they also were bled away.
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They really loved it, and they um were commenting on just it's one thing to know theoretically, you are part of intersecting multifaceted, powerful campaigns, and that people care about all the things that are going on out there and are stepping up to do that.
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It's quite another to be in the room with all those people who are taking on anti-racism campaigns, trans campaigns, um, disability access, whatever the piece is, and that you can see each other eye to eye, you can hear with openness and generosity, and you can explore together.
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Even if you're not all going to work together all of the time, you don't always have to work on exactly the same things, but you can know that solidarity is there and offer support.
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They they really enjoyed it.
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Well, we better jump into our conversation today.
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Today's episode is about creating cultural and systems change through communications.
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And our guest is Holly Rankin, a musician who goes by the stage name of Jack River.
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She's a writer, campaigner, and the co-founder of Sentiment, a strategic advisory working at the intersection of culture, politics, and communication.
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Her work spans national campaigns, create a strategy.
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We'll define what that is in our conversation today, civic engagement and storytelling.
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And as in every episode, we are now going to jump to a contributor piece.
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Today we have music by Jugan and Jubba Jabba singer-songwriter Nadala Barker.
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And a reminder to all of you who are listening today.
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We would love to hear from you if you have a music, musical piece, a poem, a spoken word piece that you would like to share with our audiences.
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Ideally, that's three minutes of your lovely voices.
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And you can find details in the show notes.
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We're seeing things we've never seen.
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In this town there ain't no passenger.
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We are the same.
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I trust in a tree.
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The birds and the bees.
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I trust in the thing there will always be true.
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The birds have tried.
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And there I know the week the weekend.
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But we'll find a way.
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That is all And it feels a little bit too much.
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She feels just a little bit too much.
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I trust in a tree.
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The birds and the beach.
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It's just in a thing.
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Let her voice be true.
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And there ain't no week.
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You know, this climate change and this war and this hate and the way in which we speak about the world informs how we feel about it.
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And this song that I wrote, Boldly Ahead, is really my attempt to present something a little bit different.
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Of when you're driving on a wet road and your car starts to fishtail, the only way you get out of it is pedal to the metal, punching it forward, getting back on track.
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And that to me is why boldness in our hope, boldness in how we relate to each other, boldness in creating solutions, that that's what lights our hope back up, and that's what's going to get us back on track.
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What an example of culture meets change making.
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And that theme.
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And it's something, it's just they're both particularly boldly feels very positive to me, and that's just feels like exactly what we need at this time.
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I think that Nadala really gave us everything we needed with her reflection on why she wrote the song.
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And it marries so perfectly to the themes out of Holly's interview and the work that she's done and and the 13-year-old letter to herself.
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Be bold, had courage, and be like Nadala and Holly.
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Yeah.
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I think the lyrics in there that will find a way for we must in the end is w probably one of those things that I hold to be true that I struggle with the most.
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Because which is the tension of life, right?
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The tension of existence is to hold multiple truths and to still take action, to surrender, to have hope in understanding that you're right.
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No one says it better than Nadala.
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I'm not sure that there's that much that I can add that Nadala hasn't said herself in her reflection or intro into why she's wro written this song.
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And I think that's because it's a piece of music.
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It feels more intimate and personal to experience it.
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And I guess that's such an interesting part of Holly's story, too.
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Uh, that she has expressed herself through music and is now doing this other change-making work.
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But I yeah, I just really felt like the music carries you.
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I mean, there's the power of music and art, right?
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And creativity, and it does move us.
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Now, today's guest is someone that I have admired from afar for quite some time.
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She's built a career that doesn't really neatly fit inside a box.
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And honestly, I think that's probably what makes her so interesting.
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Holly Rankin is a musician, a writer, a campaigner, and a strategist, working across the intersection of culture, politics, and communication.
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Now, some of you might know her as Jack River, but alongside her music career, she's also the co-founder of Sentiment, where she works with leaders, movements, and organizations to shape narratives and genuinely drive change.
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Her work spans some of the most significant campaigns in Australia in recent years, from the Uluru Statement from the Heart through to the Climate 200 movement.
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And she's been behind some of the most interesting shifts that I've watched in Australian politics and media, from engaging David Pocock to run and helping guide that campaign through to influencing the Labour government and the budget lockup and how they worked with creators to reach new audiences entirely.
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I think what you'll hear in this conversation is that Holly's work really sits at that intersection of understanding the value of story and culture.
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This belief that if you can change the story, you can change the system, and that storytelling, culture, and connection are some of the most powerful tools we have to shape the future.
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Holly, we're so glad to have you with us today.
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Thank you so much for having me and so excited for this conversation.
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Now, you have a career that um probably is less linear in the planning forward than it is looking backwards.
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Can you tell us a little bit about how you describe your work?
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Sure.
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Um yeah, I so I've come to call myself like an artist, a recording artist, and a strategist in that um strategy for me, you know, encompasses thinking about lots of different things and how you kind of get from one place to another.
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Um, but yeah, it's I my career, I we'll talk about it tonight, um, has spanned many different kinds of phases and identities, but and I've had to do a lot of thinking like, what am I doing and how do I explain it to other people because it makes sense to me that it's a lot.
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Um, and for me, what I what I'm driven by is like systems and people and how systems serve people, and that's kind of been at the heart since I was very young, and music and creativity, um, like music in particular, was a bit of an kind of detour, and now I feel like I'm back on my systems path.
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So it's interesting that you say that music's a detour though, because do you also see music as one of your tools for change making?
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It's incredibly powerful as a as a a voice of cultural change and connection and and systems we want to create.
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So if I like dig out my um year 12 Society and Culture project, it was all about how um how culture is uh is like one of the most effective forms of change.
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And it was specifically around music and looking at the 60s and 70s and culture as a vehicle for change.
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And so, yeah, since I was really young, I think I was very drawn to culture and storytelling and communication.
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Communications as a vehicle for change.
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And over, I guess, like 20 years now, I've thought about that a lot and kind of experienced it in practice and in design.
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And um yeah, have landed it this idea of like, you know, if you change the story that you're telling yourself as an individual or as a society, you can change the system of yourself or a society.
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And without that change in story, um, you'll very often lack the ability to change the system.
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So for me, yeah, music, like it's all layered, but I didn't, I don't think, plan as a really young person to have a music career.
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I was like, I want to work in law and politics and the old, you know, be the prime minister.
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But um, grief, which we'll talk about tonight, kind of took me on that path, and I ended up it being my career.
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It's interesting, you know, we do often have these visions of a career and we think it's gonna be linear, or even if it's not fully linear, we have visions of ourselves and where we'll go.
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But life, life has other plans and really important ones that shape us and shape who we are and how we be in the world.
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And and your life has done that.
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As a you know, 12 or 13-year-old, you kind of you don't have much of an idea of like the shape and size of life or the like limits, limitations that society puts on you to say you have to fit into category A, B, and C, and like um being a politician is very different from being a musician and like blah, blah, blah.
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Um, but then life teaches you that it's not linear, uh, and you kind of come back around.
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So yeah, when I was 13, I've got a book there that I like wrote a list of things I want to do in my life, and it was like write an album, write a book, um, change a change a law that affects the environment, I think.
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And then like um it's like something to do with communications and like so all these three things.
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Were you 13 with this clarity?
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Yeah, I was a bit hectic.
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I still m yeah, and then when I was 14, um, my sister passed away um very tragically and instantly I was 14, she was 11 and a half, and she drowned in a in a spa in Foster.
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And um it was so sorry, Holly.
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Yeah, it was 20 years this just a few days ago, so it's um very wild the years that pass in between.
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But yeah, Shannon, um we have a younger brother, Ruben, who is seven, and he's now in his late 20s.
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Um, but she we were obviously so close, like all throughout our life.
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And having that happen, like any family, like anyone listening knows who's been through any kind of grief, and especially a family where you um lose a child or a child passes away.
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Um, it just like completely blew up my family kind of experience and the ex like the safety and clarity and togetherness.
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Um and we also ended up, which I think is a part of a big part of why I do what I do.
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We we entered a like three-year coronial inquest.
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So that took three years to understand the circumstance of Shannon's death.
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And then um my parents, including me, um, decided to enter into a compensation case, and that were for like eight years.
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So Shannon passed away, but then we were in this um holding pattern of grief over yeah, like a period of eight or nine years.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:14.079
Um, and that was like the entirety of my teenage years into my early 20s, and that was yeah, such a transformative time of anyone's life.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:31.279
Um and I think for me, music became this um world to escape to, and like I kind of my favorite musicians became like my, you know, not mentors, but like sources of strength and imagination and support.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:45.759
And like I'd always written, like written since I was a kid in my diary, but began to write music, and I think that just became like a huge outlet for me to um experience the world and release a lot of that emotion into somewhere.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:27:09.279
It's such an incredible um experience, what music has given you in that healing journey and to have that space to process and also so incredibly generous to share that healing publicly because it's that depth of experience that allows other people to share their own and process their own experiences.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:14.400
So, mad respect to you for stepping into that the stage.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:23.039
Is there any comparison to the thrill and excitement that comes from performing to a live audience in your work these days?
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.599
How do you find that equivalent dopamine hit?
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:33.200
I still am performing and doing um festivals and shows and working on music in the background.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:43.599
But yeah, it's a very something I so treasure about my career as Jack River is what you spoke about then.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:38.400
Like it taught me to share and connect with strangers at scale and to like fall into the world and know that others will catch you and others will be there and others need you to be there, and this kind of effortless, like handing the reins over to community, and that so my experience with my first album talking about grief and losing my sister, I found like hundreds, if not thousands, of people who be in like strangers who became like friends, and singing live is a whole other experience of that where you're just like you're just a vessel like singing about whatever you wrote wrote and felt about, and someone has found their own memories in your like vessel or vehicle, and I never think oh, this is they're here to like hear me.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:47.039
I'm just like we're in something together and we're joining each other in this experience and this memory, and it's just so cool.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:54.319
It just give it just gives me this like very strong and deep faith in humanity and excitement.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:05.599
So it sounds like music and Jack River has been a huge balm to help you heal from such tragedy.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:13.839
What what was it that made you pivot into working more in the intersection of politics and culture and storytelling?
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:22.640
So I um throughout the like really busy years, right pre-COVID for me in Jack River, I was so busy.
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.400
I didn't have like a day off.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:46.079
And um I in my heart always knew that like politics and law and systems were probably my true calling, and I didn't feel like I was exactly living my true kind of calling, and I was feeling a bit like shit, do I not get to like do that in this lifetime if I continue on this path?
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:51.839
And um I was getting involved in lots of campaigns and driving campaigns.
00:29:52.240 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, and I always felt like, oh my god, I'm I couldn't be more passionate at a lot of climate and renewables campaigns at that time, climate especially, I couldn't be more passionate.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:19.039
I have a platform, I'm asking to be involved in these campaigns and I'm doing what I can, but I didn't feel like I my my platform and voice is being used or engaged with at the scale that I thought it could.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:31.359
And I'm like, if I'm not getting that like connection, then a lot of the people next to me aren't because they don't probably care as much or aren't as engaged in in these things.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:50.559
So I was starting to see a real need for um a team that was able to work with culture at scale, and then I was also meeting with um lots of parliamentarians at that point and asking, like, how do you, how does government engage with culture, how do parties and politicians engage with culture?
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.640
Like, is there any strategy?
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:00.640
Because I was seeing the evidence of like how cool and huge and incredible culture is how powerful it can be.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:05.279
So COVID hit, uh, everyone in music kind of lost their jobs overnight.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:16.000
Um, and for me, I was like, great, I this gives me an opportunity to to tuck like touch politics and see if I see myself um working in there more.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:20.880
So I ended up co-directing David Pocock's first Senate campaign.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:22.160
Um as you do.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.839
I'm out of job in COVID.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.440
I'll just um just direct this campaign for a new senator successfully.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.000
Yeah.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.640
Yeah.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:31.599
Yeah.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:41.599
Um, which came about because of mine and David's long and and his wife Emma, um, our long-standing conversation about like the power of culture and politics, where is it?
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:42.480
How do we activate it?
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:47.119
Where he ready to go, but like nothing's happening, no one's calling us at the scale, we think.
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.599
So we were both feeling the same thing.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.200
We, you know, lobbied David to actually run for the Senate.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:54.960
Um, he won that seat.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:12.720
And then I think in the months after that election, um, actually before that, I was speaking to the um leaders of the Uru Dialogue, Professor Megan Davis and Arnie Pat Anderson, um, about like very early iterations of the voice and that it was coming.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:23.200
I've learned about it in my law degree at Newcastle Uni and reached out to them like a couple of years before the voice eventuated to be like, how do I get involved?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.440
I want to help make this happen.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.000
Um, can I connect you with culture basically?
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:35.039
So and what is it when you're saying connect with culture and you said you were off talking to politicians about culture at scale?
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.160
I mean, what is that?
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:44.240
Like, you know, there'd be plenty of people in in the community going, sure, you're asking them what do they think it should look like, but what does it look like to you?
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:57.839
Culture to me is like people in arts, music, people with a voice on social media, or people with the platform are having conversations and experiences daily with audiences at scale.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:03.200
And um they have really high trust with those audiences.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:19.680
And yeah, I say culture to encompass like the place where we meet on stuff that isn't business or politics or um I guess, you know, yeah, government news, like it's our meeting place.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:27.599
And so when I'm talking about culture, I'm like the people who facilitate conversations at scale um with the public.
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:31.440
So this is one thing that I really wanted to talk to you about.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:47.920
When you're talking about culture at scale, how do you think about the fact that the mainstream is not everyone seeing the same sort of news at night or watching the same show once a week, week by week, kind of like what do you think about the fragmentation of our culture?
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:56.559
Yeah, this is the context and the problem that I was seeing emerge um during my time in music and and then in politics.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:18.960
And essentially the voice where I was going there is in that campaign, I saw the um preparedness for kind of fairly negative, anti-democratic, um, pretty evil actors to completely mess with the fabric of our social conversation very intentionally and at scale.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:22.639
And I was like, no, this we're not letting this happen.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:31.760
Um, we know how to speak to many different audiences at once in culture, and I'm going to apply those strategies to politics and critical issues.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:49.440
So the reality is that um there are hundreds of different audiences all consuming the same kind of piece of news or piece of information in like a thousand different ways, and that's just how it is, and it is not going to change, it's getting rapidly, rapidly more complex.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:50.800
I could talk about this all day.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.519
It's like my favorite thing to talk about.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:11.760
We like we can speak to audiences in complex ways through shared narratives and messages and speak to different audiences about the same thing in a in a language and in a um form that they they engage with and through message messengers that they trust.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.280
And that's how we have like critical conversations right now.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:31.119
Um the thing that is really worrying and the and the thing that I am really concerned about is the um not that we're having young people are having the majority of these critical conversations online and conversations about politics on social media.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.159
That's all good.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:48.000
The really worrying thing is that they're having them in essentially a new digital public square that is governed by um algorithms that are owned and owned and controlled and directed by like six foreign companies.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.199
Um I feel like that's a really polite way to say it.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:57.119
You could say by six psychopaths, but you know, if that's how you want to describe it, Holly, that is fine.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:10.480
Yeah, I mean, well, I guess I put it in those terms of like they are six foreign companies who are determining the rules and the landscape of our public conversation here in Australia.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.519
And that is like everyone can find their own problem in that statement.
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.599
I'm happy to take away politics and left and right, etc.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:30.639
But at the end of the day, the principle of having a few certain uh foreign companies worth trillions of dollars, like$6.5 trillion all up.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:40.800
Um, determining the the kind of the maze that we have our social conversation in is just like it sets us up to fail.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:47.599
And it changes power, it fundamentally changes power dynamics of and the way that we do work with our audiences.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:37:04.239
You know, from Weller's own community, um, you know, decades ago, it would have been letters that were sent out by uh volunteers doing lots of um lots of envelope stuffing to send out a newsletter to everybody's home, you've got a direct point of communication.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:12.800
But now, if our main communication is through Insta, for example, between me and our audience, whoever we're communicating, there's a tech bro.
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:17.679
Yeah, I like I'll just add to the problem that Right.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:18.400
Good, yeah.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.480
It's not big enough.
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.320
Yeah, let's make it a bit bigger.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.840
But it just it's such a good thought for people listening.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:32.880
Is that what this has done is it has made it impossible to have shared truth in our society.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:41.519
And shared truth is like shared truth is what we had when it was just a few newspapers and TV stations.
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:54.239
Doesn't if we take out what they're talking about, we still had a shared truth, which means we have a point to move from together and like a bit of a same page to decide things.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.599
And right now we don't.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.880
So that those algorithms are pushing people to the edges of the public square and they're almost jumping off.
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.679
A lot of people are jumping out of the square into who knows where.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:04.880
What do we do?
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:18.800
I mean, we we need to rapidly regulate uh the algorithm, regulate social media companies and create guidelines to operate within our jurisdiction of Australia.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:24.639
Um, every other company is trying to company and country, they are sometimes interchangeable at the moment.
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:38.079
Um, but yeah, in many countries around the world are grappling with this because essentially, yeah, six um American tech brews are determining the future of the world right now, and that's the problem.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.400
Um so we can regulate social media companies.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:39:03.280
I really believe, yes, those things need to happen, but what we can do as like folks in um communications land is we we need to immediately try our absolute best to communicate at scale and at a scale that is able to um make some minor dent in the immediate information ecosystem.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:23.119
So that's where I, you know, talk a lot about communications campaigns at scale and um really like joining forces and making those strategies and campaigns really ambitious instead of like a hundred little campaigns, like how do we come together around shared strategic goals at the moment?
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:48.000
I feel like one of the most exciting times as a person who works in communications and the validation of the content creator landscape was the 2025 lock up, uh the federal budget, and the lineup of creators, podcasters, social media influencers that were included in that conversation in the lockup for the first time outside of the traditional media landscape.
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:55.840
And interestingly, I think seeing the response from legacy media in about their presence and the critique and uproar that came with that.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:04.079
I'm I'm really my understanding is that you played a key role in shaping that shift that saw those creators brought into the lockup.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.760
Can you take us inside that moment and what was uh what was the inspiration there?
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:24.559
So yeah, I mean, that strategy came from uh wanting to ensure that younger generations had access to the budget as something that is of national importance and a really great marker in um political communications.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:31.679
And yeah, the I mean the reaction was kind of as expected.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:51.039
Um and I think immature and childish from um even children are a lot wiser than I shouldn't even use the word childish, um, very immature because that decision was data-led, the numbers speak for themselves around the world.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:59.440
You can see where audiences are, so why wouldn't the government um try to meet those audiences with people who actually connect with them?
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:14.719
The thing that I struggle to think about though is we still need we still need some kind of architecture that is media-based, fact-checked, accountable, governed by standards.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.920
Absolutely.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:23.039
Like journalism isn't it like one of the kind of core tenets of democracy and it needs to be protected.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:36.320
So, number one is protecting journalism and looking at all routes for its survival, helping traditional and legacy media to adapt to the present moment with like great digital strategy, easy fix.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:56.079
Um, next is like building bridges between these two worlds and involved in lots of interesting projects where it's like building tangible bridges between legacy media and creators and influencers that can be um the ambassadors for great news and great journalism.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:13.599
Um, there's projects in the ABC and other projects are involved in where we um take kind of news adjacent creators and help train them in uh, you know, the news and see if there's a pathway or an interest to become journalists, because that's the thing.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:18.960
There are very low incentives to become a journalist right now because you can make more money as a content creator.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:25.119
Frameworks for audiences and sectors to delineate between news and opinion.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.960
Those things, those ideas are being developed right now here in Australia.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:45.360
And another interesting thing I'm a part of is like without, yeah, develop those frameworks and then develop a code of ethics for creators who are not journalists but still have a you know duty of care to the audiences in society.
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:48.719
So it's like, yeah, voluntary code of ethics kinds of things.
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:54.880
And I think, yeah, we need these structures to land us in a great place moving forward.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:06.800
Yeah, but I I guess it's that thing when it's like frameworks that are developed by thoughtful people that are self-um regulating or self-selecting to opt into.
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:14.159
Um you kind of have like a a governed space where people are being, you know, really considered.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:26.880
And then you also have a territory where people are a little bit wild, wild west, um, where we know that algorithms currently favor that particular style of communication.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:27.519
Yeah.
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:48.400
Any of the projects that where where I and my team are working on media literacy, democracy, or creating frameworks in the creator space, we are so, so um passionate and driven and like won't really engage unless there's a full spectrum of people advising that project.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:59.760
So I yeah, I'm not interested in echo chamber, far left or far right or whatever, anything in that space, and including like all of our work in climate and clean energy.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:09.440
As well, we're very um very fixated on having a good representation because otherwise you're not actually attending to the problem or the solution.
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:14.639
And I know that from I've lived in uh a national seat my all my life.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:18.960
So I'm like, I don't I don't have those judgments of people.
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:29.199
I think that some folks in certain areas like might have and assume that you know a manosphere man is really bad.
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:34.639
Like my c my cousins are deep in the manosphere and they're my litmus test.
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:46.159
And Holly, I can see, you know, if you've you're doing really big broad work um through through the agency and the sorts of campaigns you're attracted to.
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:55.039
And you're definitely hitting into that place that you wanted to be in in working towards systems change and and bringing your comms and creative skills to that.
00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:00.079
But you haven't let go of your musical skill or history.
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:03.840
How do you or do you hold that alongside?
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:10.320
So thinking full circle of of these passions and and projects in your life.
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:15.280
How do you hold that creativity and that energy alongside this work?
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:19.760
And and can you see how they could come together as as your life goes forward?
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.760
Do you think they've got both got a role there?
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:34.000
Because my um, like my deep passion again is is like my interest in system change and writing for me and how I put that into words is where all of this came from.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.199
It's where I get my kind of kicks.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:48.960
Um so I I think it's just like getting things moving and started and on a track, and then finding more time for myself also as a mother, trying to carve out that time.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:46:05.760
And so um, it is really challenging that I work so hard to get my schedule right, and honestly, it is so hard and it's not perfect, and it I work a lot.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:16.880
Um, so it's not there yet, but I just I kind of compartmentalize things in my head a lot, and then when I'm in them, I let it expand.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:25.360
So, like my right now I'm working on an album, and to the world, it sounds really big and like it would take a lot of time.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:32.559
But what I've done with my calendar is like okay, I'm spending two days on the album last weekend.
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.840
I went to City, used the weekend, spent two days making it.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:49.920
We made like two and a half songs, and then I make myself just drop it out of my field of view and try not to like get overwhelmed with the fact that that's happening.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.320
So like try to stay in the day.
00:46:52.480 --> 00:47:02.079
Um and there's a honestly, there's like it is a crazy stuff of things that I have on my desk, and it looks like absolutely insane.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:21.679
But then I do think of people like Elon Musk and others who are doing so much, and I'm like, we who are interested in a different kind of future do need to create like to be this ambitious and to beat what's going on right now by those evil tech bros.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:26.800
Like Holly, we also need to do it in really sustainable ways.
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.639
So we add it, and you will be alongside us for decades to come.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:32.079
So yes, Victoria.
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:53.039
Okay, that's why I have so in full disclosure, I have an amazing EA who who schedules every second of my life, and I have an amazing um project manager who works across Jack River, and incredible like corporate and executive team and support, and um, then in the sentiment team.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:01.840
And so I'm always like honestly, every day is um trying to schedule things so that they work and so that I don't break.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:03.760
And I'm ready to hear it.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:04.159
Yeah.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:20.480
I also feel like that that um quote that you've got the same amount of hours in the day as Beyonce, it's much more inspiring and motivating to me to say that I've got the same amount of hours as Elon Musk because that's actually a much fierier motivation point.
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:21.840
That's right.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:26.400
And I'm obsessed with like all those little mental tricks and tools.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:34.639
So I like try to take all of the weight out of my vision and my dream and just like, yeah, it's happening.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:38.960
Also, just like there's a there's another future out there, I believe in it.
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.199
I I feel like we're on track to get it.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:46.239
It's like just take the weight out of the problem and focus on the time you've got in the day.
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:50.159
And like if the album doesn't happen, I don't really care.
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:57.519
You know, if we're not, I'm not in the business of life and death right now, but I am in the business of like long live the planet and community.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:09.679
So well, Holly, on that, on that quest for for um for time in the day and making sure you've got time for energizing, we've got an important question.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.840
Do you dance, Holly?
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.000
And if so, what is your best ever dancing experience?
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:21.039
I I dance, but I'm gonna immediately reference my daughter Maggie.
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:50.000
My daughter Maggie has this real intrinsic like ability to dance, and I like my greatest joy is watching her do that um right now, and I guess yeah, that it it inspires me on such a deep level for everything I do, seeing her dance and seeing her be human, seeing a little three-year-old embody them and who they are and that future.
00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:54.079
So I hope that's an okay answer to defer to Maggie.
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:56.320
Does she have a favorite artist?
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:57.519
You know what?
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.159
She loves she does love Taylor Switch.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.760
It's gonna be that or K-pop demon hunters at the moment for a three-year-old.
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:05.119
So these are your choices.
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.119
K-pop, she does love K-pop demon hunters like a lot.
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:18.719
And I'm also not mad about that because I'm like um, you know, secret agents who are artists who are actually changing the world.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:19.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:25.920
Amazing young girls have to learn to fight out there and be magnificent and wonderful at the same time.
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.960
So good.
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.440
Uh Holly, it's been such a treat to have you.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:36.320
Thank you so much for all of the wisdom and for thank you so much for all of the work that you're doing.
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:37.599
Oh, thanks, gals.
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:45.039
Well, thank you so much for having me, and thanks for going down a few wild pathways there in the conversation.
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:45.679
Thank you.
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:47.360
Pleasure.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:01.280
Well, guys, I've got a bit of a confession on that one.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:14.159
I could feel the heat rise in my cheeks during that conversation as I just realized how unbelievably blinked my view of the world is.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:19.519
And I know we all have a bias and interests and things that we're obsessed with.
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.800
For me, obviously, communications is it.
00:51:23.119 --> 00:52:00.079
And it was interesting seeing that unravel in the conversation and just knowing, of course, that Holly is a musician and artist, but how much energy and effort I put into researching and following her work for so many years, being really enamored with the work that she has done with content creators and across the political landscape, and honestly paying very little attention to her musical craft, which is by no, uh I think like by anyone's admission, absolutely an extraordinary musician.
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.840
But um, my blinkers are definitely on in that conversation.
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:07.599
It's so interesting, Adette, because I would I would be the opposite.
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:17.440
I know her as this, you know, musician, Jack River.
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:29.519
And what I've really loved is learning about how she has approached change making from such very different perspectives, but obviously really linked as well.
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:40.400
And that, you know, she draws a really strong thread through how do you make change through music and what that's meant to her personally in in dealing with grief.
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:50.480
But then as a change maker with music, and you're right, we didn't talk a lot about her, but she she's run, written beautiful songs about nature and worked with environment organizations.
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:53.440
It's been a big part of her music making.
00:52:53.599 --> 00:53:13.039
But then to recognize that systems change that's available through working in culture and to approach it from her consulting and um thinking about that as um a bigger communications challenge and a bigger engagement challenge beyond the work of one musician.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:14.320
It's super interesting.
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:19.519
I love I love the way people can pivot and approach change from different perspectives.
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:21.840
I I find that really uh exciting.
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:28.719
I but I think I think like she did pivot in one sense, but then she also told us that like what I'm saying.
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:33.920
I think what she did is cloned herself and has like a body double out there.
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:35.760
But she's riding around.
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:44.559
She knew these are the things that I want to do in the world, and she's gone out and done them in like what feels like a relatively short time since.
00:53:44.719 --> 00:54:04.400
And I I found that so interesting because at such a young age, she was able to identify all these change pathways and see herself in them in the way that she wanted to show up in the world and actually just go for it and not be limited by a label like I'm a musician or I'm this, like I want to do this in the world and I'm gonna do it.
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:11.199
So 13-year-old Victoria wanted to be a professional uh actress and flamenco dancer.
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.000
Are you saying that that's still possible, Sanaya?
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:15.519
And I could be doing that a lot.
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:16.480
Yes, it is.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:17.360
Why not?
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:32.880
Do you know what I think like is interesting about that though, is there's a real unbridled sense of ambition, both in your flamenco dancing and her courage to set those goals.
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:56.960
But like for me, setting big, wild, audacious goals like that is something that I'm probably only starting to come into in my 40s, the courage to back myself to try things, but to see that self-belief and trust at such a young age, it's like, can we learn what her parents shared with her to foster and cultivate that?
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.840
I love I love that seeing it as ambitious.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:27.599
I to me it was more um like that sense of purpose rather than ambition, like that this the purpose part is so strong that it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter if you be a musician or a consultant or a um, you know, a uh sports teacher, whatever the thing is that you go and do in the world, you bring this sense of purpose that you can make anything your vehicle for for action and change making.
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:28.239
Yeah.
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:40.480
I mean, I I I I think I sit in between both of those things in thinking about the way she talked about this because I like ambition is not a bad thing, it is a great thing to have.
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:55.920
And Odette, I love that you've like you paired it with courage because it is it is courageous to put it out there to even dream it, but there's also this part of you that needs to be willing to take a risk and be ready for it to fail.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:18.400
And that for me is like the most uh like inspiring thing because if you think about the list, like I'm gonna write an album, I want to be involved in legit legislative change, like these are these are big things to take on, uh and the fact that she can do it and uh be so up for the challenge and the risk is really amazing.
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:24.880
Did you have one of those lists, Sanaya, or do you have that thing that you're still waiting to tick off from when you were 13?
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:28.079
I've always wanted to be a writer.
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:29.519
I've always wanted to write a book.
00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:31.440
Washing in space.
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:50.480
Yeah, it's the it's I it's just it's yeah, when I was 12, I I was in grade six, I spent like three months at my desk writing a novel, and then I went to Officeworks and printed it out and gave it as Christmas presents to all of my family, which is so obnoxious in one sense.
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.199
Um, but but it like it's always been there.
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:55.519
That's that's I I expressed it.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:57.599
Oh my god, I absolutely love that.
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:02.800
You are like you just being like, read my magic, read my art stream.
00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.280
This is gonna be poetic magic.
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:06.000
Yeah.
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:16.880
Well, I mean, to I I guess like my reflection on that ambition and backing yourself is like I know that when I was in like grade five, grade six, I wanted to be a truck driver.
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:37.840
I thought, what could be better than being out on the open road eating donuts and chatting to people on the radio and listening to so we just thought to bring some big wheels and some donuts, but here you are doing the chatting to people on the modern day equivalent of a I mean Odette, you're living the dream.
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.800
You are one donut and a big wheel away from the dream.
00:57:41.119 --> 00:58:14.400
Yeah, I I found this part of the interview so interesting, and I I think I said it at the time, but I I really do find it reassuring that someone like Holly is working on this problem with such deep knowledge of all parts of it because she's she's broken it down so well into explaining like that that power hold that these large corporations have on these tech flat platforms is enormous and the damage that they can wield with their algorithms is intense.
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:20.559
And you also have to think about the balance that like all these content creators are sitting on these platforms.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:23.119
How are they meant to reach their audiences?
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.239
Um, but that's why I love the solutions that she's putting forward.
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.840
It's like, okay, we actually just need to regulate this like we do other industries.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:38.320
And I feel like it's one of those things and one of those times when the law is so slow to catch up on tech, and we've seen this time and a time again.
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:47.440
And I think as change makers, we have launched into using these tools, not recognizing that's actually what's going on, that's what's being they're being designed for.
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:53.840
And we've tried to adopt them and use them for reaching our audiences, engaging with our audiences.
00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.840
And I'm not saying that's been the wrong thing to do.
00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:05.119
There have been important uh tools for having that engagement, but it does mean that you do not have control of engagement with your audience anymore.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:11.360
Every time you want to communicate between you and your audience is a tech bro, who gets to decide whether that's appropriate?
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:22.880
And if you're talking about misogyny and large-scale systems change and power, then chances are you're probably not in agreement with uh with some of these tech boroughs.
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:23.840
And it's a huge problem.
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:26.880
And we've seen that with lots of our allied organizations.
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:28.239
We've actually had this at Weller.
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:40.320
Some of our own uh socials have been blocked and banned, and um we've not been able to share them with our audience because a tech borough doesn't think it's um within what they want to be promoting.
00:59:40.639 --> 01:00:00.320
Well, I feel like if any of our listeners are working in the space of um advocating or um, you know, coming up with ideas and solutions in this space, we'd love to hear from them, whether it is for one of our contributor um stories or if you'd like to chat on the podcast with us, we'd love to hear from you.
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:08.079
Produced by Matt Siegel from Green Thumb Media.
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.239
Podcast themed by Alice Ivey.
01:00:10.639 --> 01:00:12.079
Until next time.
00:00:00.640 --> 00:00:08.480
Welcome to There Will Be Dancing, a podcast that amplifies the voices of women and gender-diverse change makers protecting our environment and climate.
00:00:08.720 --> 00:00:15.199
I'm your host, Victoria Mackenzie McCaughe, and I'm joined by my co-hosts Odette Barry and Sanaya Kissby.
00:00:15.599 --> 00:00:23.600
Early 20th century political activist Emma Goldman once said, If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution.
00:00:23.839 --> 00:00:33.759
And we use this to remind ourselves, and you, our dear listener, that embracing joy amidst the turbulence of change making takes real courage and commitment.
00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.520
So let's have some fun.
00:00:36.240 --> 00:00:41.439
We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians and storytellers of these lands.
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:47.200
And pay special recognition for the Bungelung Nations and Warundry Country where this podcast is created.
00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:50.640
This podcast is by Women's Environmental Leadership Australia.
00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:57.439
And our thanks to Women's Agenda for supporting these essential conversations about the environment, gender, and leadership.
00:00:57.840 --> 00:00:59.039
Hello, my friends.
00:00:59.359 --> 00:00:59.679
Hi.
00:01:00.320 --> 00:01:02.960
Hi, so Vic, Sanaya.
00:01:03.600 --> 00:01:05.120
How is everything in your world?
00:01:05.280 --> 00:01:06.640
What's been going on?
00:01:07.840 --> 00:01:09.920
It has been a massive couple of weeks.
00:01:10.000 --> 00:01:12.799
I am thrilled to have survived, basically.
00:01:13.599 --> 00:01:17.120
We launched our new three-year plan at Weller.
00:01:17.519 --> 00:01:19.840
We had our 10-year anniversary event.
00:01:20.079 --> 00:01:25.840
We've had um lots of coffees and catch-ups with the founders and with key supporters.
00:01:26.000 --> 00:01:33.760
Uh, we just had a major new leadership program for um women in local government that we held in Victoria a week ago.
00:01:33.920 --> 00:01:37.840
It has been relentless, but it's all the good things, right?
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:41.120
This is what you want to be doing, but it's all totally.
00:01:41.280 --> 00:01:45.599
Vic, what's involved in that um local government leadership program?
00:01:46.640 --> 00:02:03.200
So we run leadership programs um that support women and gender-diverse people who work on climate and environmental issues from any kind of sector, but this particular program we designed with inputs from people working in the local government sector here in Victoria.
00:02:03.359 --> 00:02:05.519
And we did this one as a different program.
00:02:05.680 --> 00:02:08.319
Usually our programs run over about four days.
00:02:08.479 --> 00:02:15.039
They are residential, they're held in a natural environment, so you're connected to nature, you've got that kind of perspective.
00:02:15.280 --> 00:02:21.120
This was our first ever non-residential, so two and a half days in Melbourne, but you could go home at night.
00:02:21.280 --> 00:02:23.759
And the intention is it makes it more accessible.
00:02:23.840 --> 00:02:35.840
Uh, so for people who have who don't have the time to commit to such a big program, but who also have other um caring responsibilities in particular, it makes for a more accessible model.
00:02:35.919 --> 00:02:37.759
So that was a first time we've tried that.
00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:38.719
It worked really well.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:41.199
Yeah, what was the feedback?
00:02:41.439 --> 00:02:43.680
Yeah, really positive, really positive.
00:02:43.840 --> 00:02:47.039
There'd been a lot of great work to line it up with the needs of the sector.
00:02:47.120 --> 00:02:58.159
We've run a few programs with local government, so we knew what we were getting into, but first time designed in this way and um really great, lovely partners uh and an amazing cohort.
00:02:58.319 --> 00:02:59.360
Yeah, exciting.
00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:09.840
Did you notice a difference between the residential and the doing it over two days and people going home to the landing of ideas, have people having space to decompress?
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:11.039
Was there any difference?
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:15.360
Um I think there would have been some differences.
00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:21.680
I think the key, it's hard to tell how do ideas land after a short period of time.
00:03:21.840 --> 00:03:23.759
You can never really see immediate results.
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:28.879
Some sometimes it takes you months to reflect on what you've experienced and been through.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:33.039
The the difference though is it's not as immersive, right?
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:35.520
But it is much more accessible.
00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:41.360
And um, for people who aren't looking for that level of immersive, it's a shorter program.
00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:49.919
Uh, it just you've you've just got to have different offerings for different sorts of audiences and needs, but you can't get through all the same sort of material either.
00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:53.759
You've got to be really aware um of how you manage that time.
00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:55.520
Always trade-offs.
00:03:55.599 --> 00:04:01.360
Um, and Sanaya, you have been radiantly um energized, I hear.
00:04:02.400 --> 00:04:04.960
I'm like week four of sick.
00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:06.000
I'm so over it.
00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.479
And I'm a miserable sick person as well.
00:04:08.800 --> 00:04:12.000
So it's just but sinus and ear infections, Lily.
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:13.120
No joke.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:18.240
You feel like you have like just a body of water in your head and you have to lie down constantly.
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:20.480
Your body's just fighting this thing.
00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:27.680
Um, I I I fully subscribe to man flu and ginormous baby experience of being sick.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.000
So uh my deepest um empathy to you in your experience.
00:04:32.480 --> 00:04:36.240
Yeah, my 18 month old is handling things far better than I am.
00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:37.439
I can say that.
00:04:37.839 --> 00:04:40.000
But this is this is his fault, yeah.
00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:44.000
This is absolutely it absolutely is.
00:04:44.160 --> 00:04:51.519
I thought I don't yeah, he came down really hard a month ago, and the first week I was like, great, I'm not sick.
00:04:51.600 --> 00:04:55.920
This has never happened before, and then I got it, and here I am.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:58.160
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:04:58.319 --> 00:05:02.079
And you can't um send back to the manufacturer with these ones, unfortunately.
00:05:02.240 --> 00:05:15.360
So I I I do apologize for what you've been navigating, and also like I'm I'm curious to know what a gal like you does in downtime because that would be a lot of reality TV and scrolling on social media.
00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:17.600
You're a long form scroller.
00:05:17.759 --> 00:05:20.000
What's that look like for you?
00:05:21.040 --> 00:05:28.079
Well, I um I watched the ABC South Australian election results.
00:05:28.160 --> 00:05:30.879
Um set my little heart aflutter.
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:36.399
So it was really that was it was I I could I just couldn't tear myself away, actually.
00:05:36.560 --> 00:05:39.439
Um, as I'm sure many of us were feeling.
00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:45.519
Probably the same sort of dopamine um response to doom scrolling on TikTok for eight hours straight.
00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:47.439
So yeah, literally.
00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:54.560
I also re-watched my favorite seasons of Bridgeton and I read The Names, which is a really great book.
00:05:54.639 --> 00:05:57.360
If you have heard of it, not heard of it, you should read it.
00:05:57.439 --> 00:05:58.160
It's wonderful.
00:05:58.319 --> 00:06:00.000
It's getting lots of accolades.
00:06:00.160 --> 00:06:06.959
Um, came out last year and is an incredible, credi, incredible way of storytelling, actually.
00:06:08.000 --> 00:06:08.639
Yum.
00:06:08.959 --> 00:06:09.439
Great.
00:06:10.319 --> 00:06:18.399
Well, I had the good fortune of stepping away from agency life for a couple of days and coming down to Melbourne for progress.
00:06:19.040 --> 00:06:26.079
Um very much a mind-bendy, stretchy, expansive time for me.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:38.079
I think like yeah, that's one.
00:06:38.160 --> 00:06:56.399
And I think the the combination of having the unions, policy monks, communication nerds, and social change leaders in one space is yeah, like that's my kind of crack, I think.
00:06:56.560 --> 00:07:03.519
But just being so deeply stimulated and excited and and hearing, you know, like it's interesting.
00:07:03.600 --> 00:07:14.800
I feel like I'm at this this point in my journey of change making and the the naivety and hope and optimism of this chapter at the beginning of my journey.
00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:18.160
And when you're in a room like that, there's a real mixed bag.
00:07:18.319 --> 00:07:23.519
There's people who are defeated, who have run that many campaigns and had their heart broken.
00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:47.680
There's people who've had a small win here, and that's enough to ignite them for another decade, or you know, and and you sit in those spaces and feel like there's there's hope and there's opportunity, and you can you kind of almost for me working in communications really get validated in the power and the opportunity of this field of work in particular as it relates to change making.
00:07:47.839 --> 00:07:52.160
So yeah, there were definitely some real standout stories for me.
00:07:52.240 --> 00:08:14.879
I think um hearing uh a case study from um Sam Lewis, who talked about uh the flying bats and uh their which is not actually an animal, it's a sports club um that uh celebrates um uh women and gender diverse people in their club.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:32.720
And they ran a campaign to um advocate for trans women in sport, and it was really, really fascinating seeing how they navigated that with really clever, kind, gentle, upbeat, positive messaging.
00:08:32.879 --> 00:08:47.519
And it just across the thread of the whole two days, this message of kindness and compassion in the messages of how we communicate with people just kept getting getting thread through and validated for me.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:59.360
And I feel like that is a real challenge to actually master is to find the positive message in really difficult conversations and to still make it cut through.
00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:22.639
Um, because we can all find the positive message for sure, but finding one that will compete in the clickbait world, which I'm excited about having our guest Holly on today because she's someone that I admired greatly because I feel like as a comms nerd, I've been watching the campaigns and projects that she's worked on for a couple of years now.
00:09:22.879 --> 00:09:28.639
And I do think she's someone that has been able to translate messages in a really positive light.
00:09:30.480 --> 00:09:35.840
We had quite a number of our team who were at progress, and they also were bled away.
00:09:35.919 --> 00:09:53.039
They really loved it, and they um were commenting on just it's one thing to know theoretically, you are part of intersecting multifaceted, powerful campaigns, and that people care about all the things that are going on out there and are stepping up to do that.
00:09:53.200 --> 00:10:12.320
It's quite another to be in the room with all those people who are taking on anti-racism campaigns, trans campaigns, um, disability access, whatever the piece is, and that you can see each other eye to eye, you can hear with openness and generosity, and you can explore together.
00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:20.559
Even if you're not all going to work together all of the time, you don't always have to work on exactly the same things, but you can know that solidarity is there and offer support.
00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:22.320
They they really enjoyed it.
00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:26.559
Well, we better jump into our conversation today.
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:32.159
Today's episode is about creating cultural and systems change through communications.
00:10:32.320 --> 00:10:37.600
And our guest is Holly Rankin, a musician who goes by the stage name of Jack River.
00:10:38.159 --> 00:10:47.759
She's a writer, campaigner, and the co-founder of Sentiment, a strategic advisory working at the intersection of culture, politics, and communication.
00:10:48.000 --> 00:10:51.679
Her work spans national campaigns, create a strategy.
00:10:51.919 --> 00:10:57.679
We'll define what that is in our conversation today, civic engagement and storytelling.
00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:03.840
And as in every episode, we are now going to jump to a contributor piece.
00:11:04.000 --> 00:11:09.679
Today we have music by Jugan and Jubba Jabba singer-songwriter Nadala Barker.
00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.559
And a reminder to all of you who are listening today.
00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:21.840
We would love to hear from you if you have a music, musical piece, a poem, a spoken word piece that you would like to share with our audiences.
00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:25.279
Ideally, that's three minutes of your lovely voices.
00:11:25.360 --> 00:11:27.679
And you can find details in the show notes.
00:11:39.120 --> 00:11:44.080
We're seeing things we've never seen.
00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.399
In this town there ain't no passenger.
00:11:57.360 --> 00:11:59.600
We are the same.
00:12:02.399 --> 00:12:04.240
I trust in a tree.
00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.159
The birds and the bees.
00:12:10.399 --> 00:12:16.159
I trust in the thing there will always be true.
00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.600
The birds have tried.
00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.440
And there I know the week the weekend.
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:16.559
But we'll find a way.
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:33.600
That is all And it feels a little bit too much.
00:13:34.159 --> 00:13:37.840
She feels just a little bit too much.
00:13:39.120 --> 00:13:41.039
I trust in a tree.
00:13:42.240 --> 00:13:44.720
The birds and the beach.
00:13:47.279 --> 00:13:48.879
It's just in a thing.
00:13:50.000 --> 00:13:53.039
Let her voice be true.
00:13:58.960 --> 00:14:01.759
And there ain't no week.
00:15:17.679 --> 00:15:26.000
You know, this climate change and this war and this hate and the way in which we speak about the world informs how we feel about it.
00:15:26.240 --> 00:15:32.000
And this song that I wrote, Boldly Ahead, is really my attempt to present something a little bit different.
00:15:32.159 --> 00:15:42.480
Of when you're driving on a wet road and your car starts to fishtail, the only way you get out of it is pedal to the metal, punching it forward, getting back on track.
00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:55.919
And that to me is why boldness in our hope, boldness in how we relate to each other, boldness in creating solutions, that that's what lights our hope back up, and that's what's going to get us back on track.
00:16:05.840 --> 00:16:09.200
What an example of culture meets change making.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:11.039
And that theme.
00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:35.519
And it's something, it's just they're both particularly boldly feels very positive to me, and that's just feels like exactly what we need at this time.
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:44.639
I think that Nadala really gave us everything we needed with her reflection on why she wrote the song.
00:16:45.679 --> 00:16:55.360
And it marries so perfectly to the themes out of Holly's interview and the work that she's done and and the 13-year-old letter to herself.
00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.840
Be bold, had courage, and be like Nadala and Holly.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:00.879
Yeah.
00:17:01.120 --> 00:17:15.039
I think the lyrics in there that will find a way for we must in the end is w probably one of those things that I hold to be true that I struggle with the most.
00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:20.640
Because which is the tension of life, right?
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:30.640
The tension of existence is to hold multiple truths and to still take action, to surrender, to have hope in understanding that you're right.
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.799
No one says it better than Nadala.
00:17:33.440 --> 00:17:43.200
I'm not sure that there's that much that I can add that Nadala hasn't said herself in her reflection or intro into why she's wro written this song.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:46.079
And I think that's because it's a piece of music.
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:49.920
It feels more intimate and personal to experience it.
00:17:50.000 --> 00:17:54.400
And I guess that's such an interesting part of Holly's story, too.
00:17:54.559 --> 00:17:59.920
Uh, that she has expressed herself through music and is now doing this other change-making work.
00:18:00.160 --> 00:18:04.240
But I yeah, I just really felt like the music carries you.
00:18:04.480 --> 00:18:06.640
I mean, there's the power of music and art, right?
00:18:06.720 --> 00:18:10.160
And creativity, and it does move us.
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:23.440
Now, today's guest is someone that I have admired from afar for quite some time.
00:18:23.680 --> 00:18:27.920
She's built a career that doesn't really neatly fit inside a box.
00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:31.839
And honestly, I think that's probably what makes her so interesting.
00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:42.720
Holly Rankin is a musician, a writer, a campaigner, and a strategist, working across the intersection of culture, politics, and communication.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:58.319
Now, some of you might know her as Jack River, but alongside her music career, she's also the co-founder of Sentiment, where she works with leaders, movements, and organizations to shape narratives and genuinely drive change.
00:18:58.640 --> 00:19:08.960
Her work spans some of the most significant campaigns in Australia in recent years, from the Uluru Statement from the Heart through to the Climate 200 movement.
00:19:09.279 --> 00:19:29.920
And she's been behind some of the most interesting shifts that I've watched in Australian politics and media, from engaging David Pocock to run and helping guide that campaign through to influencing the Labour government and the budget lockup and how they worked with creators to reach new audiences entirely.
00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:39.519
I think what you'll hear in this conversation is that Holly's work really sits at that intersection of understanding the value of story and culture.
00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:50.720
This belief that if you can change the story, you can change the system, and that storytelling, culture, and connection are some of the most powerful tools we have to shape the future.
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.519
Holly, we're so glad to have you with us today.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:58.079
Thank you so much for having me and so excited for this conversation.
00:19:58.400 --> 00:20:07.839
Now, you have a career that um probably is less linear in the planning forward than it is looking backwards.
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.720
Can you tell us a little bit about how you describe your work?
00:20:13.680 --> 00:20:14.240
Sure.
00:20:14.480 --> 00:20:32.400
Um yeah, I so I've come to call myself like an artist, a recording artist, and a strategist in that um strategy for me, you know, encompasses thinking about lots of different things and how you kind of get from one place to another.
00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:50.400
Um, but yeah, it's I my career, I we'll talk about it tonight, um, has spanned many different kinds of phases and identities, but and I've had to do a lot of thinking like, what am I doing and how do I explain it to other people because it makes sense to me that it's a lot.
00:20:50.559 --> 00:21:11.920
Um, and for me, what I what I'm driven by is like systems and people and how systems serve people, and that's kind of been at the heart since I was very young, and music and creativity, um, like music in particular, was a bit of an kind of detour, and now I feel like I'm back on my systems path.
00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:20.400
So it's interesting that you say that music's a detour though, because do you also see music as one of your tools for change making?
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:31.759
It's incredibly powerful as a as a a voice of cultural change and connection and and systems we want to create.
00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:45.759
So if I like dig out my um year 12 Society and Culture project, it was all about how um how culture is uh is like one of the most effective forms of change.
00:21:45.839 --> 00:21:52.319
And it was specifically around music and looking at the 60s and 70s and culture as a vehicle for change.
00:21:52.640 --> 00:21:59.839
And so, yeah, since I was really young, I think I was very drawn to culture and storytelling and communication.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.119
Communications as a vehicle for change.
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:12.559
And over, I guess, like 20 years now, I've thought about that a lot and kind of experienced it in practice and in design.
00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:27.200
And um yeah, have landed it this idea of like, you know, if you change the story that you're telling yourself as an individual or as a society, you can change the system of yourself or a society.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:34.079
And without that change in story, um, you'll very often lack the ability to change the system.
00:22:34.240 --> 00:22:43.920
So for me, yeah, music, like it's all layered, but I didn't, I don't think, plan as a really young person to have a music career.
00:22:44.079 --> 00:22:49.200
I was like, I want to work in law and politics and the old, you know, be the prime minister.
00:22:49.519 --> 00:22:57.279
But um, grief, which we'll talk about tonight, kind of took me on that path, and I ended up it being my career.
00:22:57.680 --> 00:23:07.440
It's interesting, you know, we do often have these visions of a career and we think it's gonna be linear, or even if it's not fully linear, we have visions of ourselves and where we'll go.
00:23:07.759 --> 00:23:16.799
But life, life has other plans and really important ones that shape us and shape who we are and how we be in the world.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:18.799
And and your life has done that.
00:23:19.119 --> 00:23:39.839
As a you know, 12 or 13-year-old, you kind of you don't have much of an idea of like the shape and size of life or the like limits, limitations that society puts on you to say you have to fit into category A, B, and C, and like um being a politician is very different from being a musician and like blah, blah, blah.
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:46.319
Um, but then life teaches you that it's not linear, uh, and you kind of come back around.
00:23:46.400 --> 00:24:00.880
So yeah, when I was 13, I've got a book there that I like wrote a list of things I want to do in my life, and it was like write an album, write a book, um, change a change a law that affects the environment, I think.
00:24:01.039 --> 00:24:06.079
And then like um it's like something to do with communications and like so all these three things.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:08.880
Were you 13 with this clarity?
00:24:10.319 --> 00:24:12.079
Yeah, I was a bit hectic.
00:24:12.240 --> 00:24:29.039
I still m yeah, and then when I was 14, um, my sister passed away um very tragically and instantly I was 14, she was 11 and a half, and she drowned in a in a spa in Foster.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.119
And um it was so sorry, Holly.
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:42.319
Yeah, it was 20 years this just a few days ago, so it's um very wild the years that pass in between.
00:24:42.559 --> 00:24:50.160
But yeah, Shannon, um we have a younger brother, Ruben, who is seven, and he's now in his late 20s.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:56.400
Um, but she we were obviously so close, like all throughout our life.
00:24:56.720 --> 00:25:08.559
And having that happen, like any family, like anyone listening knows who's been through any kind of grief, and especially a family where you um lose a child or a child passes away.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:20.720
Um, it just like completely blew up my family kind of experience and the ex like the safety and clarity and togetherness.
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:27.920
Um and we also ended up, which I think is a part of a big part of why I do what I do.
00:25:28.000 --> 00:25:32.160
We we entered a like three-year coronial inquest.
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.799
So that took three years to understand the circumstance of Shannon's death.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:50.160
And then um my parents, including me, um, decided to enter into a compensation case, and that were for like eight years.
00:25:50.480 --> 00:26:00.559
So Shannon passed away, but then we were in this um holding pattern of grief over yeah, like a period of eight or nine years.
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:14.079
Um, and that was like the entirety of my teenage years into my early 20s, and that was yeah, such a transformative time of anyone's life.
00:26:14.400 --> 00:26:31.279
Um and I think for me, music became this um world to escape to, and like I kind of my favorite musicians became like my, you know, not mentors, but like sources of strength and imagination and support.
00:26:31.359 --> 00:26:45.759
And like I'd always written, like written since I was a kid in my diary, but began to write music, and I think that just became like a huge outlet for me to um experience the world and release a lot of that emotion into somewhere.
00:26:46.079 --> 00:27:09.279
It's such an incredible um experience, what music has given you in that healing journey and to have that space to process and also so incredibly generous to share that healing publicly because it's that depth of experience that allows other people to share their own and process their own experiences.
00:27:09.519 --> 00:27:14.400
So, mad respect to you for stepping into that the stage.
00:27:14.799 --> 00:27:23.039
Is there any comparison to the thrill and excitement that comes from performing to a live audience in your work these days?
00:27:23.200 --> 00:27:25.599
How do you find that equivalent dopamine hit?
00:27:26.079 --> 00:27:33.200
I still am performing and doing um festivals and shows and working on music in the background.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:43.599
But yeah, it's a very something I so treasure about my career as Jack River is what you spoke about then.
00:27:44.000 --> 00:28:38.400
Like it taught me to share and connect with strangers at scale and to like fall into the world and know that others will catch you and others will be there and others need you to be there, and this kind of effortless, like handing the reins over to community, and that so my experience with my first album talking about grief and losing my sister, I found like hundreds, if not thousands, of people who be in like strangers who became like friends, and singing live is a whole other experience of that where you're just like you're just a vessel like singing about whatever you wrote wrote and felt about, and someone has found their own memories in your like vessel or vehicle, and I never think oh, this is they're here to like hear me.
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:47.039
I'm just like we're in something together and we're joining each other in this experience and this memory, and it's just so cool.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:54.319
It just give it just gives me this like very strong and deep faith in humanity and excitement.
00:28:54.960 --> 00:29:05.599
So it sounds like music and Jack River has been a huge balm to help you heal from such tragedy.
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:13.839
What what was it that made you pivot into working more in the intersection of politics and culture and storytelling?
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:22.640
So I um throughout the like really busy years, right pre-COVID for me in Jack River, I was so busy.
00:29:22.720 --> 00:29:24.400
I didn't have like a day off.
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:46.079
And um I in my heart always knew that like politics and law and systems were probably my true calling, and I didn't feel like I was exactly living my true kind of calling, and I was feeling a bit like shit, do I not get to like do that in this lifetime if I continue on this path?
00:29:46.240 --> 00:29:51.839
And um I was getting involved in lots of campaigns and driving campaigns.
00:29:52.240 --> 00:30:04.319
Um, and I always felt like, oh my god, I'm I couldn't be more passionate at a lot of climate and renewables campaigns at that time, climate especially, I couldn't be more passionate.
00:30:04.480 --> 00:30:19.039
I have a platform, I'm asking to be involved in these campaigns and I'm doing what I can, but I didn't feel like I my my platform and voice is being used or engaged with at the scale that I thought it could.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:31.359
And I'm like, if I'm not getting that like connection, then a lot of the people next to me aren't because they don't probably care as much or aren't as engaged in in these things.
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:50.559
So I was starting to see a real need for um a team that was able to work with culture at scale, and then I was also meeting with um lots of parliamentarians at that point and asking, like, how do you, how does government engage with culture, how do parties and politicians engage with culture?
00:30:50.799 --> 00:30:52.640
Like, is there any strategy?
00:30:52.880 --> 00:31:00.640
Because I was seeing the evidence of like how cool and huge and incredible culture is how powerful it can be.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:05.279
So COVID hit, uh, everyone in music kind of lost their jobs overnight.
00:31:05.440 --> 00:31:16.000
Um, and for me, I was like, great, I this gives me an opportunity to to tuck like touch politics and see if I see myself um working in there more.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:20.880
So I ended up co-directing David Pocock's first Senate campaign.
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:22.160
Um as you do.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:23.839
I'm out of job in COVID.
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:29.440
I'll just um just direct this campaign for a new senator successfully.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.000
Yeah.
00:31:30.319 --> 00:31:30.640
Yeah.
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:31.599
Yeah.
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:41.599
Um, which came about because of mine and David's long and and his wife Emma, um, our long-standing conversation about like the power of culture and politics, where is it?
00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:42.480
How do we activate it?
00:31:42.559 --> 00:31:47.119
Where he ready to go, but like nothing's happening, no one's calling us at the scale, we think.
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:49.599
So we were both feeling the same thing.
00:31:49.839 --> 00:31:53.200
We, you know, lobbied David to actually run for the Senate.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:54.960
Um, he won that seat.
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:12.720
And then I think in the months after that election, um, actually before that, I was speaking to the um leaders of the Uru Dialogue, Professor Megan Davis and Arnie Pat Anderson, um, about like very early iterations of the voice and that it was coming.
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:23.200
I've learned about it in my law degree at Newcastle Uni and reached out to them like a couple of years before the voice eventuated to be like, how do I get involved?
00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:25.440
I want to help make this happen.
00:32:25.599 --> 00:32:28.000
Um, can I connect you with culture basically?
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:35.039
So and what is it when you're saying connect with culture and you said you were off talking to politicians about culture at scale?
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:36.160
I mean, what is that?
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:44.240
Like, you know, there'd be plenty of people in in the community going, sure, you're asking them what do they think it should look like, but what does it look like to you?
00:32:44.559 --> 00:32:57.839
Culture to me is like people in arts, music, people with a voice on social media, or people with the platform are having conversations and experiences daily with audiences at scale.
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:03.200
And um they have really high trust with those audiences.
00:33:03.599 --> 00:33:19.680
And yeah, I say culture to encompass like the place where we meet on stuff that isn't business or politics or um I guess, you know, yeah, government news, like it's our meeting place.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:27.599
And so when I'm talking about culture, I'm like the people who facilitate conversations at scale um with the public.
00:33:27.920 --> 00:33:31.440
So this is one thing that I really wanted to talk to you about.
00:33:31.839 --> 00:33:47.920
When you're talking about culture at scale, how do you think about the fact that the mainstream is not everyone seeing the same sort of news at night or watching the same show once a week, week by week, kind of like what do you think about the fragmentation of our culture?
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:56.559
Yeah, this is the context and the problem that I was seeing emerge um during my time in music and and then in politics.
00:33:56.720 --> 00:34:18.960
And essentially the voice where I was going there is in that campaign, I saw the um preparedness for kind of fairly negative, anti-democratic, um, pretty evil actors to completely mess with the fabric of our social conversation very intentionally and at scale.
00:34:19.199 --> 00:34:22.639
And I was like, no, this we're not letting this happen.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:31.760
Um, we know how to speak to many different audiences at once in culture, and I'm going to apply those strategies to politics and critical issues.
00:34:31.920 --> 00:34:49.440
So the reality is that um there are hundreds of different audiences all consuming the same kind of piece of news or piece of information in like a thousand different ways, and that's just how it is, and it is not going to change, it's getting rapidly, rapidly more complex.
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:50.800
I could talk about this all day.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:34:53.519
It's like my favorite thing to talk about.
00:34:53.679 --> 00:35:11.760
We like we can speak to audiences in complex ways through shared narratives and messages and speak to different audiences about the same thing in a in a language and in a um form that they they engage with and through message messengers that they trust.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:15.280
And that's how we have like critical conversations right now.
00:35:15.440 --> 00:35:31.119
Um the thing that is really worrying and the and the thing that I am really concerned about is the um not that we're having young people are having the majority of these critical conversations online and conversations about politics on social media.
00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:32.159
That's all good.
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:48.000
The really worrying thing is that they're having them in essentially a new digital public square that is governed by um algorithms that are owned and owned and controlled and directed by like six foreign companies.
00:35:48.159 --> 00:35:51.199
Um I feel like that's a really polite way to say it.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:35:57.119
You could say by six psychopaths, but you know, if that's how you want to describe it, Holly, that is fine.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:10.480
Yeah, I mean, well, I guess I put it in those terms of like they are six foreign companies who are determining the rules and the landscape of our public conversation here in Australia.
00:36:10.719 --> 00:36:15.519
And that is like everyone can find their own problem in that statement.
00:36:15.679 --> 00:36:19.599
I'm happy to take away politics and left and right, etc.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:30.639
But at the end of the day, the principle of having a few certain uh foreign companies worth trillions of dollars, like$6.5 trillion all up.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:40.800
Um, determining the the kind of the maze that we have our social conversation in is just like it sets us up to fail.
00:36:41.199 --> 00:36:47.599
And it changes power, it fundamentally changes power dynamics of and the way that we do work with our audiences.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:37:04.239
You know, from Weller's own community, um, you know, decades ago, it would have been letters that were sent out by uh volunteers doing lots of um lots of envelope stuffing to send out a newsletter to everybody's home, you've got a direct point of communication.
00:37:04.400 --> 00:37:12.800
But now, if our main communication is through Insta, for example, between me and our audience, whoever we're communicating, there's a tech bro.
00:37:13.119 --> 00:37:17.679
Yeah, I like I'll just add to the problem that Right.
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:18.400
Good, yeah.
00:37:19.679 --> 00:37:20.480
It's not big enough.
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:22.320
Yeah, let's make it a bit bigger.
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.840
But it just it's such a good thought for people listening.
00:37:26.000 --> 00:37:32.880
Is that what this has done is it has made it impossible to have shared truth in our society.
00:37:33.039 --> 00:37:41.519
And shared truth is like shared truth is what we had when it was just a few newspapers and TV stations.
00:37:41.760 --> 00:37:54.239
Doesn't if we take out what they're talking about, we still had a shared truth, which means we have a point to move from together and like a bit of a same page to decide things.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:55.599
And right now we don't.
00:37:55.760 --> 00:38:00.880
So that those algorithms are pushing people to the edges of the public square and they're almost jumping off.
00:38:00.960 --> 00:38:03.679
A lot of people are jumping out of the square into who knows where.
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:04.880
What do we do?
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:18.800
I mean, we we need to rapidly regulate uh the algorithm, regulate social media companies and create guidelines to operate within our jurisdiction of Australia.
00:38:18.960 --> 00:38:24.639
Um, every other company is trying to company and country, they are sometimes interchangeable at the moment.
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:38.079
Um, but yeah, in many countries around the world are grappling with this because essentially, yeah, six um American tech brews are determining the future of the world right now, and that's the problem.
00:38:38.639 --> 00:38:42.400
Um so we can regulate social media companies.
00:38:42.719 --> 00:39:03.280
I really believe, yes, those things need to happen, but what we can do as like folks in um communications land is we we need to immediately try our absolute best to communicate at scale and at a scale that is able to um make some minor dent in the immediate information ecosystem.
00:39:03.440 --> 00:39:23.119
So that's where I, you know, talk a lot about communications campaigns at scale and um really like joining forces and making those strategies and campaigns really ambitious instead of like a hundred little campaigns, like how do we come together around shared strategic goals at the moment?
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:48.000
I feel like one of the most exciting times as a person who works in communications and the validation of the content creator landscape was the 2025 lock up, uh the federal budget, and the lineup of creators, podcasters, social media influencers that were included in that conversation in the lockup for the first time outside of the traditional media landscape.
00:39:48.239 --> 00:39:55.840
And interestingly, I think seeing the response from legacy media in about their presence and the critique and uproar that came with that.
00:39:56.000 --> 00:40:04.079
I'm I'm really my understanding is that you played a key role in shaping that shift that saw those creators brought into the lockup.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.760
Can you take us inside that moment and what was uh what was the inspiration there?
00:40:10.480 --> 00:40:24.559
So yeah, I mean, that strategy came from uh wanting to ensure that younger generations had access to the budget as something that is of national importance and a really great marker in um political communications.
00:40:25.599 --> 00:40:31.679
And yeah, the I mean the reaction was kind of as expected.
00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:51.039
Um and I think immature and childish from um even children are a lot wiser than I shouldn't even use the word childish, um, very immature because that decision was data-led, the numbers speak for themselves around the world.
00:40:51.119 --> 00:40:59.440
You can see where audiences are, so why wouldn't the government um try to meet those audiences with people who actually connect with them?
00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:14.719
The thing that I struggle to think about though is we still need we still need some kind of architecture that is media-based, fact-checked, accountable, governed by standards.
00:41:15.119 --> 00:41:15.920
Absolutely.
00:41:16.079 --> 00:41:23.039
Like journalism isn't it like one of the kind of core tenets of democracy and it needs to be protected.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:36.320
So, number one is protecting journalism and looking at all routes for its survival, helping traditional and legacy media to adapt to the present moment with like great digital strategy, easy fix.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:56.079
Um, next is like building bridges between these two worlds and involved in lots of interesting projects where it's like building tangible bridges between legacy media and creators and influencers that can be um the ambassadors for great news and great journalism.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:42:13.599
Um, there's projects in the ABC and other projects are involved in where we um take kind of news adjacent creators and help train them in uh, you know, the news and see if there's a pathway or an interest to become journalists, because that's the thing.
00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:18.960
There are very low incentives to become a journalist right now because you can make more money as a content creator.
00:42:19.199 --> 00:42:25.119
Frameworks for audiences and sectors to delineate between news and opinion.
00:42:25.360 --> 00:42:28.960
Those things, those ideas are being developed right now here in Australia.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:45.360
And another interesting thing I'm a part of is like without, yeah, develop those frameworks and then develop a code of ethics for creators who are not journalists but still have a you know duty of care to the audiences in society.
00:42:45.519 --> 00:42:48.719
So it's like, yeah, voluntary code of ethics kinds of things.
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:54.880
And I think, yeah, we need these structures to land us in a great place moving forward.
00:42:55.119 --> 00:43:06.800
Yeah, but I I guess it's that thing when it's like frameworks that are developed by thoughtful people that are self-um regulating or self-selecting to opt into.
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:14.159
Um you kind of have like a a governed space where people are being, you know, really considered.
00:43:14.239 --> 00:43:26.880
And then you also have a territory where people are a little bit wild, wild west, um, where we know that algorithms currently favor that particular style of communication.
00:43:27.280 --> 00:43:27.519
Yeah.
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:48.400
Any of the projects that where where I and my team are working on media literacy, democracy, or creating frameworks in the creator space, we are so, so um passionate and driven and like won't really engage unless there's a full spectrum of people advising that project.
00:43:48.639 --> 00:43:59.760
So I yeah, I'm not interested in echo chamber, far left or far right or whatever, anything in that space, and including like all of our work in climate and clean energy.
00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:09.440
As well, we're very um very fixated on having a good representation because otherwise you're not actually attending to the problem or the solution.
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:14.639
And I know that from I've lived in uh a national seat my all my life.
00:44:14.800 --> 00:44:18.960
So I'm like, I don't I don't have those judgments of people.
00:44:19.039 --> 00:44:29.199
I think that some folks in certain areas like might have and assume that you know a manosphere man is really bad.
00:44:29.360 --> 00:44:34.639
Like my c my cousins are deep in the manosphere and they're my litmus test.
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:46.159
And Holly, I can see, you know, if you've you're doing really big broad work um through through the agency and the sorts of campaigns you're attracted to.
00:44:46.320 --> 00:44:55.039
And you're definitely hitting into that place that you wanted to be in in working towards systems change and and bringing your comms and creative skills to that.
00:44:55.360 --> 00:45:00.079
But you haven't let go of your musical skill or history.
00:45:00.559 --> 00:45:03.840
How do you or do you hold that alongside?
00:45:04.000 --> 00:45:10.320
So thinking full circle of of these passions and and projects in your life.
00:45:10.480 --> 00:45:15.280
How do you hold that creativity and that energy alongside this work?
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:19.760
And and can you see how they could come together as as your life goes forward?
00:45:19.920 --> 00:45:21.760
Do you think they've got both got a role there?
00:45:22.000 --> 00:45:23.119
Yeah, absolutely.
00:45:23.360 --> 00:45:34.000
Because my um, like my deep passion again is is like my interest in system change and writing for me and how I put that into words is where all of this came from.
00:45:34.079 --> 00:45:37.199
It's where I get my kind of kicks.
00:45:37.360 --> 00:45:48.960
Um so I I think it's just like getting things moving and started and on a track, and then finding more time for myself also as a mother, trying to carve out that time.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:46:05.760
And so um, it is really challenging that I work so hard to get my schedule right, and honestly, it is so hard and it's not perfect, and it I work a lot.
00:46:06.079 --> 00:46:16.880
Um, so it's not there yet, but I just I kind of compartmentalize things in my head a lot, and then when I'm in them, I let it expand.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:25.360
So, like my right now I'm working on an album, and to the world, it sounds really big and like it would take a lot of time.
00:46:25.679 --> 00:46:32.559
But what I've done with my calendar is like okay, I'm spending two days on the album last weekend.
00:46:32.719 --> 00:46:35.840
I went to City, used the weekend, spent two days making it.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:49.920
We made like two and a half songs, and then I make myself just drop it out of my field of view and try not to like get overwhelmed with the fact that that's happening.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.320
So like try to stay in the day.
00:46:52.480 --> 00:47:02.079
Um and there's a honestly, there's like it is a crazy stuff of things that I have on my desk, and it looks like absolutely insane.
00:47:02.159 --> 00:47:21.679
But then I do think of people like Elon Musk and others who are doing so much, and I'm like, we who are interested in a different kind of future do need to create like to be this ambitious and to beat what's going on right now by those evil tech bros.
00:47:21.920 --> 00:47:26.800
Like Holly, we also need to do it in really sustainable ways.
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:30.639
So we add it, and you will be alongside us for decades to come.
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:32.079
So yes, Victoria.
00:47:32.320 --> 00:47:53.039
Okay, that's why I have so in full disclosure, I have an amazing EA who who schedules every second of my life, and I have an amazing um project manager who works across Jack River, and incredible like corporate and executive team and support, and um, then in the sentiment team.
00:47:53.199 --> 00:48:01.840
And so I'm always like honestly, every day is um trying to schedule things so that they work and so that I don't break.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:03.760
And I'm ready to hear it.
00:48:03.920 --> 00:48:04.159
Yeah.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:20.480
I also feel like that that um quote that you've got the same amount of hours in the day as Beyonce, it's much more inspiring and motivating to me to say that I've got the same amount of hours as Elon Musk because that's actually a much fierier motivation point.
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:21.840
That's right.
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:26.400
And I'm obsessed with like all those little mental tricks and tools.
00:48:26.559 --> 00:48:34.639
So I like try to take all of the weight out of my vision and my dream and just like, yeah, it's happening.
00:48:34.800 --> 00:48:38.960
Also, just like there's a there's another future out there, I believe in it.
00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:41.199
I I feel like we're on track to get it.
00:48:41.440 --> 00:48:46.239
It's like just take the weight out of the problem and focus on the time you've got in the day.
00:48:46.559 --> 00:48:50.159
And like if the album doesn't happen, I don't really care.
00:48:50.320 --> 00:48:57.519
You know, if we're not, I'm not in the business of life and death right now, but I am in the business of like long live the planet and community.
00:48:57.760 --> 00:49:09.679
So well, Holly, on that, on that quest for for um for time in the day and making sure you've got time for energizing, we've got an important question.
00:49:10.000 --> 00:49:11.840
Do you dance, Holly?
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:16.000
And if so, what is your best ever dancing experience?
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:21.039
I I dance, but I'm gonna immediately reference my daughter Maggie.
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:50.000
My daughter Maggie has this real intrinsic like ability to dance, and I like my greatest joy is watching her do that um right now, and I guess yeah, that it it inspires me on such a deep level for everything I do, seeing her dance and seeing her be human, seeing a little three-year-old embody them and who they are and that future.
00:49:50.320 --> 00:49:54.079
So I hope that's an okay answer to defer to Maggie.
00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:56.320
Does she have a favorite artist?
00:49:56.719 --> 00:49:57.519
You know what?
00:49:57.679 --> 00:50:00.159
She loves she does love Taylor Switch.
00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:03.760
It's gonna be that or K-pop demon hunters at the moment for a three-year-old.
00:50:03.920 --> 00:50:05.119
So these are your choices.
00:50:05.519 --> 00:50:09.119
K-pop, she does love K-pop demon hunters like a lot.
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:18.719
And I'm also not mad about that because I'm like um, you know, secret agents who are artists who are actually changing the world.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:19.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:50:19.599 --> 00:50:25.920
Amazing young girls have to learn to fight out there and be magnificent and wonderful at the same time.
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:28.960
So good.
00:50:29.119 --> 00:50:31.440
Uh Holly, it's been such a treat to have you.
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:36.320
Thank you so much for all of the wisdom and for thank you so much for all of the work that you're doing.
00:50:36.559 --> 00:50:37.599
Oh, thanks, gals.
00:50:37.760 --> 00:50:45.039
Well, thank you so much for having me, and thanks for going down a few wild pathways there in the conversation.
00:50:45.360 --> 00:50:45.679
Thank you.
00:50:46.559 --> 00:50:47.360
Pleasure.
00:50:56.559 --> 00:51:01.280
Well, guys, I've got a bit of a confession on that one.
00:51:01.519 --> 00:51:14.159
I could feel the heat rise in my cheeks during that conversation as I just realized how unbelievably blinked my view of the world is.
00:51:14.320 --> 00:51:19.519
And I know we all have a bias and interests and things that we're obsessed with.
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.800
For me, obviously, communications is it.
00:51:23.119 --> 00:52:00.079
And it was interesting seeing that unravel in the conversation and just knowing, of course, that Holly is a musician and artist, but how much energy and effort I put into researching and following her work for so many years, being really enamored with the work that she has done with content creators and across the political landscape, and honestly paying very little attention to her musical craft, which is by no, uh I think like by anyone's admission, absolutely an extraordinary musician.
00:52:00.320 --> 00:52:03.840
But um, my blinkers are definitely on in that conversation.
00:52:04.239 --> 00:52:07.599
It's so interesting, Adette, because I would I would be the opposite.
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:17.440
I know her as this, you know, musician, Jack River.
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:29.519
And what I've really loved is learning about how she has approached change making from such very different perspectives, but obviously really linked as well.
00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:40.400
And that, you know, she draws a really strong thread through how do you make change through music and what that's meant to her personally in in dealing with grief.
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:50.480
But then as a change maker with music, and you're right, we didn't talk a lot about her, but she she's run, written beautiful songs about nature and worked with environment organizations.
00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:53.440
It's been a big part of her music making.
00:52:53.599 --> 00:53:13.039
But then to recognize that systems change that's available through working in culture and to approach it from her consulting and um thinking about that as um a bigger communications challenge and a bigger engagement challenge beyond the work of one musician.
00:53:13.280 --> 00:53:14.320
It's super interesting.
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:19.519
I love I love the way people can pivot and approach change from different perspectives.
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:21.840
I I find that really uh exciting.
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:28.719
I but I think I think like she did pivot in one sense, but then she also told us that like what I'm saying.
00:53:29.280 --> 00:53:33.920
I think what she did is cloned herself and has like a body double out there.
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:35.760
But she's riding around.
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:44.559
She knew these are the things that I want to do in the world, and she's gone out and done them in like what feels like a relatively short time since.
00:53:44.719 --> 00:54:04.400
And I I found that so interesting because at such a young age, she was able to identify all these change pathways and see herself in them in the way that she wanted to show up in the world and actually just go for it and not be limited by a label like I'm a musician or I'm this, like I want to do this in the world and I'm gonna do it.
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:11.199
So 13-year-old Victoria wanted to be a professional uh actress and flamenco dancer.
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:14.000
Are you saying that that's still possible, Sanaya?
00:54:14.159 --> 00:54:15.519
And I could be doing that a lot.
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:16.480
Yes, it is.
00:54:16.880 --> 00:54:17.360
Why not?
00:54:18.480 --> 00:54:32.880
Do you know what I think like is interesting about that though, is there's a real unbridled sense of ambition, both in your flamenco dancing and her courage to set those goals.
00:54:33.119 --> 00:54:56.960
But like for me, setting big, wild, audacious goals like that is something that I'm probably only starting to come into in my 40s, the courage to back myself to try things, but to see that self-belief and trust at such a young age, it's like, can we learn what her parents shared with her to foster and cultivate that?
00:54:57.360 --> 00:54:59.840
I love I love that seeing it as ambitious.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:27.599
I to me it was more um like that sense of purpose rather than ambition, like that this the purpose part is so strong that it doesn't matter what you do, it doesn't matter if you be a musician or a consultant or a um, you know, a uh sports teacher, whatever the thing is that you go and do in the world, you bring this sense of purpose that you can make anything your vehicle for for action and change making.
00:55:27.920 --> 00:55:28.239
Yeah.
00:55:28.400 --> 00:55:40.480
I mean, I I I I think I sit in between both of those things in thinking about the way she talked about this because I like ambition is not a bad thing, it is a great thing to have.
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:55.920
And Odette, I love that you've like you paired it with courage because it is it is courageous to put it out there to even dream it, but there's also this part of you that needs to be willing to take a risk and be ready for it to fail.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:56:18.400
And that for me is like the most uh like inspiring thing because if you think about the list, like I'm gonna write an album, I want to be involved in legit legislative change, like these are these are big things to take on, uh and the fact that she can do it and uh be so up for the challenge and the risk is really amazing.
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:24.880
Did you have one of those lists, Sanaya, or do you have that thing that you're still waiting to tick off from when you were 13?
00:56:26.480 --> 00:56:28.079
I've always wanted to be a writer.
00:56:28.239 --> 00:56:29.519
I've always wanted to write a book.
00:56:30.320 --> 00:56:31.440
Washing in space.
00:56:32.400 --> 00:56:50.480
Yeah, it's the it's I it's just it's yeah, when I was 12, I I was in grade six, I spent like three months at my desk writing a novel, and then I went to Officeworks and printed it out and gave it as Christmas presents to all of my family, which is so obnoxious in one sense.
00:56:50.639 --> 00:56:53.199
Um, but but it like it's always been there.
00:56:53.360 --> 00:56:55.519
That's that's I I expressed it.
00:56:55.599 --> 00:56:57.599
Oh my god, I absolutely love that.
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:02.800
You are like you just being like, read my magic, read my art stream.
00:57:03.039 --> 00:57:05.280
This is gonna be poetic magic.
00:57:05.519 --> 00:57:06.000
Yeah.
00:57:06.320 --> 00:57:16.880
Well, I mean, to I I guess like my reflection on that ambition and backing yourself is like I know that when I was in like grade five, grade six, I wanted to be a truck driver.
00:57:17.119 --> 00:57:37.840
I thought, what could be better than being out on the open road eating donuts and chatting to people on the radio and listening to so we just thought to bring some big wheels and some donuts, but here you are doing the chatting to people on the modern day equivalent of a I mean Odette, you're living the dream.
00:57:37.920 --> 00:57:40.800
You are one donut and a big wheel away from the dream.
00:57:41.119 --> 00:58:14.400
Yeah, I I found this part of the interview so interesting, and I I think I said it at the time, but I I really do find it reassuring that someone like Holly is working on this problem with such deep knowledge of all parts of it because she's she's broken it down so well into explaining like that that power hold that these large corporations have on these tech flat platforms is enormous and the damage that they can wield with their algorithms is intense.
00:58:14.880 --> 00:58:20.559
And you also have to think about the balance that like all these content creators are sitting on these platforms.
00:58:20.719 --> 00:58:23.119
How are they meant to reach their audiences?
00:58:23.280 --> 00:58:26.239
Um, but that's why I love the solutions that she's putting forward.
00:58:26.320 --> 00:58:29.840
It's like, okay, we actually just need to regulate this like we do other industries.
00:58:30.000 --> 00:58:38.320
And I feel like it's one of those things and one of those times when the law is so slow to catch up on tech, and we've seen this time and a time again.
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:47.440
And I think as change makers, we have launched into using these tools, not recognizing that's actually what's going on, that's what's being they're being designed for.
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:53.840
And we've tried to adopt them and use them for reaching our audiences, engaging with our audiences.
00:58:53.920 --> 00:58:55.840
And I'm not saying that's been the wrong thing to do.
00:58:55.920 --> 00:59:05.119
There have been important uh tools for having that engagement, but it does mean that you do not have control of engagement with your audience anymore.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:11.360
Every time you want to communicate between you and your audience is a tech bro, who gets to decide whether that's appropriate?
00:59:11.440 --> 00:59:22.880
And if you're talking about misogyny and large-scale systems change and power, then chances are you're probably not in agreement with uh with some of these tech boroughs.
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:23.840
And it's a huge problem.
00:59:23.920 --> 00:59:26.880
And we've seen that with lots of our allied organizations.
00:59:27.039 --> 00:59:28.239
We've actually had this at Weller.
00:59:28.639 --> 00:59:40.320
Some of our own uh socials have been blocked and banned, and um we've not been able to share them with our audience because a tech borough doesn't think it's um within what they want to be promoting.
00:59:40.639 --> 01:00:00.320
Well, I feel like if any of our listeners are working in the space of um advocating or um, you know, coming up with ideas and solutions in this space, we'd love to hear from them, whether it is for one of our contributor um stories or if you'd like to chat on the podcast with us, we'd love to hear from you.
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:08.079
Produced by Matt Siegel from Green Thumb Media.
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:10.239
Podcast themed by Alice Ivey.
01:00:10.639 --> 01:00:12.079
Until next time.
