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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 488 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. On this week's episode... I'm talking with family medicine physician Dr. Chi Johnson about infertility and IVF. Dr. Chi was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency at 33, in the middle of her residency, and the first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs. She's here to tell us what happened next, including what she did when her insurance ran out in the middle of her second round of IVF. Stay with us. Today we're talking about infertility and IVF with a doctor who's been the patient. Dr. Chi Johnson was 33 and in her medical residency when she was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency, which meant her ovaries had almost no eggs left. The first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs and sent her home with nothing else. She didn't tell anyone, not even her mom, for two years.
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Speaker 2: Dr.
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Speaker 1: Chi has been sharing what came after in her docuseries, A Love Story Through Infertility. She told me about the third opinion that finally gave her options, doing hormone injections at 8 a.m. before seeing 18 patients, and the lifetime insurance cap she and her husband ran into mid-treatment. She was pregnant with a baby girl when we spoke, and we also talk about the early pregnancy loss that came before. So please take care while listening. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Chi.
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Speaker 2: Of course.
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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Excited.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you. So tell us more about the love story through infertility and what this project means to you.
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Speaker 3: So a love story through infertility is a documentary series that I posted on basically my journey through infertility. And it was a love story through it. Most people would think of infertility as a rough journey, which it was. but I found love through it. I found love within myself. I found love with my partner, my husband, and I found love with my future baby that I hoped and prayed for. And so it was a story that I felt like it needed to be told. And that's what I did. And I found the most beautiful, eloquent.
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Speaker 2: Way to do it through social media, being honest with all my journey throughout the years of dealing with infertility and my diagnosis.
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Speaker 3: So that's basically what the DACA series is all about.
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Speaker 1: And you shared that you initially did not plan on sharing so publicly about your journey. Is there something that happened that led you to feel like, okay, I need to share this?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough. I mean, when it comes to something so private and personal, you want to connect to yourself because one of the You're a rarest. You're ashamed. You have all these emotions about a diagnosis that you did not expect to have. And over time, I'm very strong in my faith. And I felt a calling that God wanted me to share with us because it was deeper than me. I am a physician, but I also went through something many women go through as patients. And we don't think about it as enough, especially Black women. And so I felt it was necessary for me to be that voice and to speak on such a touchy, sensitive topic like infertility that many of us are ashamed about, but many of us are dealing with it and stuttering silently. And this was something that I felt it was needed to do. And I'm really glad I did. It wasn't easy, but the outreach, the messages that I received from women all over the world, sharing their own journeys and how much They needed to hear me speak on it, really solidifying that, okay, I did the right thing. I needed to share this story for other people to get hope, to not lose their own hope and to keep that faith in their own diagnosis. So it really meant a lot to be able to get that feedback from other women around the world. I know now I needed to share it. And so I'm very happy I did. Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, this is such a complicated medical situation, I think, when you are diagnosed with infertility, kind of going through all the testing, going through all these procedures. And I think a lot of people just feel very ill-equipped, right? Like, how do I know what to do? You know, what do these words mean? And as a physician, right, like you may be somebody who may be better equipped than most to kind of go through this, right? But were there even some situations that you felt ill? ill-equipped to deal with it. And how did you manage that?
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. So when I got diagnosed, I was only 33. I was being a new doctor. I was in residency and training. And people are very familiar with PCOS and then matriosis. But my diagnosis was called POI or primary ovarian insufficiency. And basically what that means is that my ovaries were not producing or didn't have enough egg storage left in my ovaries at that age. Other people may call this as early menopause, essentially. And I started having symptoms. I had the red sweats. I had the fatigue and just feeling very off. I didn't know where it was. And so I went to the doctor, got my blood work done, and they said, your blood work is fine. But these symptoms continue for a long time. And I went back, asked more questions, had acquaintances. recommend a blood test to get, which was called AMH. What does that stand for, Dr. G? Anti-malarian hormone. So it's basically a number that will tell you how much eggs, essentially, you have left. It's not a perfect number, but it basically gives you a way to know where your next steps are. And so for me, my AMH, when I got it back, was undetectable. And the doctor initially or the NP that was with me, she said, this must be a lab error because there's no way that you're undetectable numbers at this age. And I agreed as in, this is very odd. So we rechecked it and the numbers still came back undetectable, like so low that may not have anything. So they referred me to a specialist. And during that time, they basically told me with all your labs, your images, You have POI, primary radiosensitivity. And that's when I got my diagnosis. I honestly, as a physician, wasn't aware of this diagnosis. This was something that we studied heavily in med school. You know, it's rare. You may glance over it. But I was really quick with the knowledge to know what to do next. And unfortunately, that physician that saw me He was an older white male, and he did not come after me when he gave me the news, did not have that compassion for me to understand our group. It was more like, this is your diagnosis. I'm sorry, no one will help you right now. We can't freeze your hands. No one will do that. The numbers are too low. And he did not provide any resources to move forward. And so here I am as a 33-year-old woman, a patient, a human, not knowing what to do next. My physician skills went out the window. I didn't have social media right with you now to look at other people's stories or things like that. It was just me. My family and friends know I'm still in infertility. So I definitely felt alone. And that's one of those emotional times where you may know what to do, but you're so stuck in this thought of, And you go into a depression, you go into anxiety, you go into all these emotions that you just kind of shut down. And that's what I did. And so that's how it started. And unfortunately, when they said, you need a physician, yes, I should have done more. Like the person I am now, completely different than what I was years ago. But unfortunately, at that time, I shut down. Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that you should have done more. I mean, I think you did what anybody would do, right? Like you said, like training and expertise and all that goes out the window when it's like your experience, right? The thing you might recommend for a patient is different when you find yourself being the patient.
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Speaker 3: It was tough. That was tough at that time. Yeah. I would definitely know what to do. But at that stage, it's such an emotional rollercoaster because I was one of the family. I was with somebody, so I was being around there. I grew up with six other students in the house, and so that was something that I cherish. And so someone just told me, like, all right, since it's like, you ain't doing this. It was hurtful. It was hard.
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Speaker 1: So what did support look like for you during that time? Like, were there certain people you decided to share that with, and how were they supportive to you?
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Speaker 3: So unfortunately, I connected to myself first. I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. Yes, I have family and friends. I could have went to 100%. But it was something that was so painful for me. It was hard to admit it to myself. If you're in that state of mind, if you can't admit it to yourself, how can you tell someone else this news? And I was also going through other personal issues as well. I was in a toxic relationship at the time. So I had a lot of things going against me that didn't allow me to have that freedom to share. this diagnosis. So I kept it to myself for a while. It wasn't until a couple of years later where I finally opened up to my mother and made my mother very close. And it took me that long to share her because it was a very emotional time for me. And so I do have that support system. I just decided not to share it because it was so hard for me to accept it.
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Speaker 2: Hmm.
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Speaker 1: So you are dealing with all of this by yourself still in school, right? Like you were in your residency, so you were still in training. So there were multiple stresses happening for you.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely. It was. It was a dark time, to say it lightly, but it was a dark time. So at that time, I actually finally got away from that toxic relationship. I moved to Houston because I wanted a fresh start. And I thought if I ran away, essentially, everything would be great. But that's not how it works. I'm sure you know. In case you run into a new problem, you've got to deal with it. So I moved to Houston, started fresh, new job, new circles. But then I decided she has time to look into this diagnosis. It's time to get a second, third, or fourth opinion and seek what my options are. And then also try to find myself again. In that toxic relationship, I had somebody telling me physically that that my body wasn't what they wanted. How I looked wasn't exactly what they wanted. And that was another pain point for me. So I had to go back and find myself again and really love who I was again. And so that's part of the love story of my fertility was finding love within me again. Because I didn't have that. I was mad at my body. I was mad at God. I'd ask so many questions. And so I had to fall in love with who I was and remember who I was, that care-driven, smart, ambitious, loving human. I had to find her again. And that's what I ended up doing for the next few years, just working on me. And, yeah, and gathering other opinions from other physicians. And we just somehow give you that call and say, yeah, you have this diagnosis, but there's options out there for you. That's what I saw.
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Speaker 1: So what did it look like to try to get those second opinions? Like after you've had one physician say, basically, there's no options there. Like, what are you looking for when you're looking for like a second and third opinion? How did you know that these might be people who would give you more hope and have a better treatment plan for you?
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Speaker 3: Well, one for one, I did a little bit. Someone who understands our body and can kind of sympathize with you a little bit more. I needed that connection, a Black woman doctor. I wanted to connect with them again, a different level of being seen. And I did seek out one, but then the missing piece with the second opinion was that she didn't really give me those options of my other options I can do for myself with this diagnosis. And so again, I felt like I felt restricted to this is it. This is the only option you have. You can go in one direction. And so that didn't work well for me and that's okay. And so I found another one. It took, I think, six months to see her because she was so, I guess, booked and busy and really done. So by the time I saw my third opinion, she was everything I needed, wide-febrile, specializes in fertility, and gave me options to look into and to do my research. And also that hope that it's okay. Like, I see you, but let's do this other ultrasound. Let me see what I can see here. Let's see if we can fill the light in this here. And that gave me a sense of like, okay, I can do this. And I was close to stigma at the time, so I still needed some type of connection. And with that position, I left her office just feeling good. I left her office feeling hopeful. And I remember telling her, okay, doc, the next time I see you, I'm going to worry about the future. That's how confident she made me feel right now. I heard that there's a future now. And lo and behold, fast forward a year later, I actually was like eight months later, I came in with my now husband to the doctor's appointment to help me with the next steps of the patrolling journey.
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Speaker 1: So can you talk about like some of the options she was able to lay out that you feel like other people had not? Like what kinds of things gave you hope as she identified them?
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Speaker 3: Yeah, so when it comes to my diagnosis of POI, your ovaries are low. And so most doctors are just going to tell you, endorse. That's your only option. But there are options as far as things that are being studied. One of them is called ovarian rejuvenation, where they basically take your endoparathyroid, your own platelets and your own cells, And they inject it into your ovaries where they, it's almost like stem cells, and then we generate that air in your ovaries. So you can have these dormant eggs in your ovaries that can come to life, per se. And you're able to do the same things as anyone else would do with stimulation to freeze your eggs. And that was one of the options I had no idea, never even knew about. That gave us hope. It's not offered very often or many places in different facilities around the U.S., but there are facilities that specialize in those procedures. And so that, for me, was eye-opening. It was, oh, wow. And there's also vitamins, certain vitamins that people, women who take can help preserve their eggs as well on their fertility journey and they're not ready to help kids down. There are certain vitamins that certain specialists will recommend for them to take. that have studies that show it can help your journey along the way. So a combination of that, taking care of your lifestyle, eating well, course movements, responsivity, things like that make a big difference in just your overall body and calming down inflammation in your woman-combing region makes such a big difference. And so that was the whole, that was the missing piece that people need, like being depressed and being down or What was me is not a good way to move forward in this journey. You have to be uplifted. You have to have a support system and you have to have faith.
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Speaker 1: And so you mentioned that, you know, you were doing this all on your own for a period and then you met your now husband, right? So what were those conversations like? At what point did you share this information with him?
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: So when I first met him, I didn't think much of it because I didn't know where this mission was going. But we connected really fast and it ended up being like one of those like, oh, wow, like this is going fast, but really well. And he's so supportive and everything are done. So I think it's time to have the conversation. Those vendors, you know, any relationship, we're going to restore that and have somebody that can be prepared for this type of journey. And so we were on the phone, actually, and I explained to him, I said, hey, I have this diagnosis that I know you are more children, but I want you to know that the journey will not be easy with my diagnosis. And I just want to know if you'd be okay with it. And his first response was, when's the next adoption appointment? I wouldn't be there. This is no longer your journey. This is our journey. And that was everything I needed to hear. I didn't expect to hear that actually. It was beyond the response I was expected. So having a partner that will not only just say he'll be there, but actually does it and supports you in ways you didn't even know you needed, mentally, spiritually, holding you down is the R.R. needed in a journey like this because it's hard to do it alone. But having someone in your corner that uplifts you throughout each step of the way It's powerful that anyone can imagine. Those IVF injections, those doctor's appointments, they take a lot on your body, on any woman's body, but not a lot of the extra stress of a man. If seen, you need that extra positivity in your life that will not only do the injections for you, but will pray for you at night as well, or put a heat pack on your side when you're hurting. So it's been a blessing, honestly, if you really say that. Mm-hmm.
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Speaker 1: So it sounds like he, you know, came into the picture pretty early on when you were working with your... newest specialist. So you had taken eight months to a year, it sounds like, to try the things she suggested. So were there another series of testing that you did when you went back to see her and then got good results? Or what was that process like after you went back to see her?
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Speaker 3: So since it was early on in our relationship and we're married, very spiritual religious people, it was very hard to move forward with creating flowers when we weren't married yet, right? So we made a hard decision to wait until we moved into that marriage step. And so for a year, from the doctor's appointment to us having traditional Nigerian wedding, we lived and improved our marriage or our relationship and had that foundation of God within us first before pursuing any type of procedures or education or anything like that. So that was hard because with time, as you know, the time, your chances go lower. And so we had to put our feet to God that he knows what we will ultimately want. And so for a year, we just had to trust where we started a new one. So the first step that we did was the very rejuvenation step. And that was, if anything, experimental, you know, you just have to trust that it works for you. And so we'll be bored from there. And that was our first step before anything. And then we continue on with the 20 doctor after that. And so that's probably year two, that was 2024. And then 2025 was officially when we were able to start the IVF process.
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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. Our conversations here are just the start. Therapy for Black Girls also connects you to care in your own community. As the year winds down, a lot of us start thinking about what we want to feel in the new year. If finding a therapist is on your list, Start at the Therapy for Black Girls directory, where over 5,000 Black women practitioners are ready to connect. Search at therapyforblackgirls.com. And therapists, this is a great time to make sure you're listed and your profile is ready for the new year. Join us at therapyforblackgirls.com slash start hyphen here. And so what was that process? I know that there are lots of shots and things involved. You see kind of depictions of this, but what in your like real life experience, what was that process?
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Speaker 3: So totally before we got the embryos, thankfully. And then 2025 is the time when you start transferring. And I first transferred in January. You never prepared for this. You just never prepared for this, but yeah. It starts with injections. You know, you have the hormones, the progesterone, the estrogen patches. Same time, same day, every day, nothing changes. And you have to stimulate and prepare your body for a baby, essentially. And every day you're doing that, even through work, even through everything, you have to do these steps and you don't know the rest of anything. Even before that, you're getting ultrasounds, you're getting other testing to make sure in your cavity, you don't have these okay. There's so many steps in place in order to be, to hold alive a lady. And so in January, we started the injections for the progesterone, the estrogen patches, and we had her transferred in pretty early on in January. And then after that, I'm kind of wait for a couple of weeks until you get a positive old age of pregnancy test. And unfortunately for us, we did not get across to the parents who test them in that first IVF process. And so we were devastated because I think we didn't, I wasn't expecting many then. I was just like, oh, this is it. I would not imagine the odds of actually getting a positive transfer is not as high as people think. I want to say it's in the, depending on your facility, It can be away from 20 to 30%. So it's not that high to have a successful transfer. And I guess I was just so hopeful. And so to get that negative, it almost was like a gut check, like reality, like, oh, shoot, this may not happen. You go through all that and then you go through, it still may not happen. And so that was hard to, that realization was pretty marked. But we still had hope. And so we were blessed enough to have more embryos to try and get her. And so we did end up trying again in March.
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Speaker 1: Do they recommend a specific period, Dr. Chi, where like in between attempts for you to wait before you try again?
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Speaker 3: So everyone's different. In my situation, I was able to start pretty soon after my next menstrual cycle. And so because it was negative, I didn't have my body just... was back to how it was right soon after. So I was able to just wait for my next period to end and then run back to the doctor and we just had to enter a next transfer date. And I happened to be immersed. You can wait or you can do other testing to make sure everything is right. There's other things that you can do to make sure the titer is right. You can do another biopsy, a re-uterus. You can do different things to see what went wrong But unfortunately, the majority of failed IMF processes, you never know what happened. You can do everything right. You can eat right. You can have the perfect embryo and it may still not take. And that's the reality of IMF. It's so unknown. And so we just was hopeful. That's the only thing we have is our faith at this point. So we actually did do it again. And successfully had a positive pregnancy test in March. And we were ecstatic. We were like, oh, wow, didn't expect it. But the only thing about this pregnancy was that our numbers were on the low side. And so the doctor was like, we're going to have to keep watching your numbers because they're positive when it's low. The ACG numbers are low. And so we watched it for several weeks. And unfortunately, that pregnancy ended up in a loss. And we had an early pregnancy loss in April. And so that was rather heartache and rather the emotional rollercoaster of what happened. And you're thinking about it today because it's been a year, around a year ago. Yeah. Or you can think about it now. It's just... It's one of those things that I think people don't experience it. It's hard to explain the feeling because you're grieving, right? But there's nothing to see. You're grieving hope. You're grieving what could have been. You're grieving something that happened that could happen in the future but didn't happen for you. And it's really hard to really take that in. And so that was a hard period for both of us. But my husband was ever a home strong for us. But I knew he was like, you're not doing well. You need to see somebody. I can't do this on my own with you. You need to seek help and talk to somebody. And right from the start, it's just one of those things that if you've never been through it, you don't know that you don't have the tools to deal with it. Yeah, that was the next step for me was therapy. during that time.
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Speaker 1: Is that the first time in this whole process that you had worked with a therapist?
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Speaker 3: No. Okay. This was actually like a specialist therapist, a specialist in miscarriages and loss. And so I wanted to make sure I had somebody that kind of understood this journey.
00:28:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I had therapists, I had a couple of therapists in the past when I, I used during the other journeys that I spoke about earlier, just going through that diagnosis and not figuring out, like figuring out what to do. So I have worked with therapists in the past. To me, it is hard to find a good therapist, but you can work in the English. But when you do find one, it's like, okay, I need you. Thank you. So that was a step that I was on in the conference and how to move forward. But I will say, I say this a lot, it's really hard to navigate the two emotions of grief and hope. And understand that they both can still coexist. Because we were still hopeful. Yeah. But I was so sad at the same time.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: And probably scared. Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: So those two emotions I had to learn that they can't coexist. Even as difficult as it may sound. I learned that. And that was a, that's where I was able to move forward.
00:29:33
Speaker 1: Can you remember anything in particular about working with that therapist during that time that you found really helpful for you as you continue to navigate this journey?
00:29:41
Speaker 3: I do remember telling her, I want to get to a point where I can tell this story and not cry. That was my goal for very long. Because every time I even talked about it, even though I thought about talking about it, the tears just came. And she told me, that's okay. It's okay. You don't have to not worry about it. You can just be. You can feel these emotions and still be fine. It's okay to remember what it was. It's okay to have that hope for what it could be. And so I had to be okay with that process. And I think I was so going home, like, I'm going to get over it. I'm not going to cry about it anymore. But she allowed me to just take my time in this process. And I think that, if anything, that was the most hopeful and helpful thing that she could have done for me.
00:30:45
Speaker 1: And then after the loss in April, when was the next attempt at the transfer?
00:30:51
Speaker 3: So then we took some time away from everything, took a break, wanted to recenter, reset, and really make some changes to our next steps. We wanted to ensure that things were changing, different things were changing for us. So we wanted to just make sure everything's online. And we were stressed. It was a stressful time. So we wanted to be in a place where we were not stressed anymore, where we were still living our lives, spending time with families. And that's what we did. I have a passion for serving. I have a passion for giving back. And so I moved back to doing that, doing things I love to do. I had things for community of women. I had a wall for suicide awareness. I traveled to spend time with my family. We went on our anniversary trip in June. I just wanted to live and just stay in the moment of life and not being stubborn in the past. Because I always said we had hope. It's going to happen. We just said no way. And so all the different changes, changed clinics, we did a lot of different things. We tried again in August and the August. So we took a few several months off before trying again. And so in August, with this new clinic, Something different about the atmosphere. It just felt different. I also tried to do something different, the acupuncture this time as well. And I really felt for some, I don't know, probably crazy. There are some things on it, but I felt better. I felt better. And so in August, we went in and we had our transfer and we found out we were pregnant in September. And that was, the numbers were high this time. It wasn't, oh, let's check the orange. It was like, okay, you're pregnant. And so the joy, I'm like, maybe it's the joy that, I mean, if you go on my Creation of Brian Gotham series, you can find that where I have it. If you find the opening of the email to the positive test, like you can feel how much just seeing that positive test meant And I knew this in my heart. This is it. This is it. It felt amazing, right? I can't even explain in words. Because it's just all the emotions and everything I've been through for the last few years just came pouring out of that one email that just wait. It's going to happen. And the patience really was shown. So it was a joyous moment for us in September last year. And so, yeah, we are pregnant right now. I'm pregnant right now. I don't know. So, yeah, it's been an amazing journey.
00:33:41
Speaker 1: And talk about, like, the emotions that you've had since finding out about the pregnancy in September. Like, what kinds of things have happened for you?
00:33:49
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just, I've just been in a state of gratitude, honestly. Like, everything is just grateful, state of peace. Just really welcoming all the love from my family, the support from my sisters, my brother. our parents, our friends, especially the ones that are new about the journey, and you don't have to be coasting it. It's a different type of love that people show because I also feel like we all have our own battles. And we can see how great I was to share mine. And they're witnessing a miracle, and that gives them hope. It gives them a peace of mind that prayer does work. And I can see that. And so it's really amazing to just be able to share this joy with so many people, to be honest. I know when they see me, they see love. They see connection. And they just see me in a happy state. And I love that. I love that for me, too. So it's just been amazing. And I can't even express how little it's been. But I've been doing every step of the way. Even if I'm nauseous, they laugh. Even if... All right. You'll maybe kick. I think not. It doesn't matter. Like, I am so grateful for every piece of this pregnancy journey.
00:35:14
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You mentioned a little while ago that at some point, like your insurance changed. Talk to me about like the insurance piece of this and the cost of this. Like, is this something that is mostly covered by insurance, like all of these steps? Or is this something that you're kind of having to pay for out of pocket?
00:35:40
Speaker 3: OK, a little bit of both. So I would say everyone's insurance is different. But I have come to realize that there's only the cap on fertility. Most insurances will not indefinitely cover. give you money for fertility. No, that's not going to happen. And so initially my, our first two trials were IVF, we used my husband's insurance, but they didn't cap. And so we capped them up. And so I mean, you cap out, you're out lifetime and everything else is out of pocket. So we capped out, like maybe half way through the second one, did one of the second, second one was capped until the rest was out of pocket. And so then we were relocating our own list, trying our own insurance. And so that's what we had to do, change insurances. And then for mine, there's a limited amount. Because I wanted to use my fertility discretion list, my insurance didn't cover her. So I had to pay an additional fee to get her coverage. And so there's still many little pieces that are frustrating, but to us, it's like, it's worth it. We made... have the dental savings, but it's worth it. It's hard. Fertility is not cheap. A lot of women out there want to freeze their ads. They want to start a family, but they just can't afford it. They want to try IVF at the same time, but they just can't afford it. They want to try endovers, but they can't afford it. And it's expensive. I really do wish that the system, a regular system, had more leniency around women in terms of fertility because so many women do this and companies know that. And so that's why the medications are so expensive. We can't go to CVS and just pay for it out of pocket because no one can afford it. You need a service to pay for it. You need a service to pay for just your own shots. You need all this. But it's just so expensive. But I always say to have insurance coverage and a job that helps cover for the ones, things I can't, that doesn't, that can't cover. And that's where the less avenging happens. I know a lot of women don't have that. And so I wish there was something better for a better system. There are some resources that are out there for women to turn to. I don't know all of them, but if they are enrolled to Google resources for infertility, there are some resources that have grants for women showing infertility who want to, who need the assistance. It's out there, not many, but it's out there for some coverage. But in the day, it's so offensive. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:31
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, were there any online or in real life like support groups or communities that you've participated in for maybe other women who are dealing with similar kinds of things? I know those kinds of things can be helpful. Did you use any of that that you want to share?
00:38:45
Speaker 3: So for me, I'm different. I initially did that, but I got off immediately. It's not for everybody. So I initially went on a Facebook group. It was like, I can't remember the name of the group. And initially I was like, okay, these are our stories. But then it also caused me to have fear because we're all going to post things about their own experiences, what we're in the world. And then I remember I was going like, oh, shoot, this may happen to me. This may happen to me. I'm going to work on this and work on that. And so putting me into a state of fear and anxiety. And so it didn't work for me. Most people like me to see that and to hear that. But for me, I'm already a doctor. I know what's in the world already. So now you're telling me another personal experience to talk about my expertise. I can't do that. And so it didn't work for me. I had to get off immediately because it was scaring me of the wrong things. Yes, there are confident, successful stories. And then you start to question, why did they get that? Why didn't they get that? They got it on the first chart. I didn't get it on the first chart. So it could go both ways. But for me, it didn't work. I knew that. I caught it right in my eyes. I was like, this ain't gonna work. Too much anxiety. So I had to keep my story for me. What happened for me was for me. This was my story. This was my journey. And I had to take out of state television. And so that's why those groups, unfortunately, didn't work for me. But I could see why it didn't work for other women. It could be a support group. It can be something where you can pour out what we need or your heart, but it just didn't work. Yeah, yeah.
00:40:23
Speaker 1: You've mentioned several times how much faith and spirituality was a big part of this for both you and your husband. What are some things that you think faith communities could do to better support women who are dealing with these kinds of concerns?
00:40:36
Speaker 3: That's a good question because a lot of us have different spiritual walks, different religions that support us. IVF and don't support IVF. And so it can be isolating a lot of race because there are, it becomes a judgment. For me, I'm Catholic and in the Catholic world, it's not very supported in my learning. But I also have to remember, this is my journey. This is my ownership of God. This is my personal walk. And so my faith has nothing to do with what the man says. This walk is about my personal relationship and my walk and my journey. And so I had to keep that in mind. It's so easy to get caught up in other people's opinions, other people's judgments, and feel like that's for you, but it's not. I encourage women to remember their own relationship with their own guy and how they feel, how God is seeing them. And to kind of silence the noise that comes around and comes around. Because it's not easy. It's not easy. Always remember how it started. How did your relationship start? And continue to develop that relationship with your faith. Because the faith honestly has saved me. If I relied on what other people think or what religion says or what I was supposed to do and not supposed to do, I don't know where I'd be. Having that support from your faith and also the support from your support system, your family, your friends, isn't he? Because you do need it. Like this infertility journey can be so isolating because you feel like you're the only one dealing with it. You feel like no one will understand. Start talking to God first. Have those private conversations first. Write down what you're thinking, how you're feeling in your own private prayer journal. And so that you can reflect that you can pray that these are your voice talking, that nobody else is talking to you. that you can know what you need for yourself and not in opinions of others. So I would say it's definitely tough, but silence and noise around you is what will be key.
00:42:54
Speaker 1: Dr. G, how would you say this experience has changed your relationship to yourself and your body?
00:43:01
Speaker 3: Oh, big way. Changed it in a big way. From what I mentioned before, After meeting with that relationship, the toxic relationship, and I gave a diagnosis, I did not remember myself. I didn't like what my body was doing. I didn't understand why I was doing it. I thought I did everything right, and it still shut down on me. That was lacking in. And going through this whole journey, I realized how much power my body actually has. And it hurt the rest of me that I did not know what my body could go through and how tough it was throughout this time. And I realized that me allowing the noise to judge who I was was a problem. And so as I silenced that, was I open for who I was and what my body could do and what God blessed me with, I believe that's when the strength started. That's when the strength of this whole journey has began suffering so amazing. I didn't know how I was able to get those injections at eight o'clock, go to work and see 18 patients, come back home, do another vaginal insertion, go to bed, wake up again, do the same thing again, and still be moving in a positive spirit and saying, I'm actually going. And so I learned so much that thought about looking a certain way. It's a lot about the opinions of other people and how you look in a dress or how you look in tights or heels. None of that matters. It's what's in here. It's what's in your heart. It's how you feel. How do you feel? Do you have energy? Do you feel like you're split too wide? Like, how do you really feel? And I realized that's the power. How do you feel will trace into how your body looks. And I realized that. And so that's when I ran out of pregnancy. And all these changes are happening.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:45:10
Speaker 3: Like, that's true power, what my body can really do. Yes, I have all this discoloration of my body. That's beautiful. There's life in me. Yes, I have unstretched marks. Oh, look at that. More life. And so I'm just loving my body, even more. And if I'm about to snap back, I'm not snapping back. I'm just going to take my time and enjoy what I have. I don't have to do that. I'm not pleasing to anybody. but allowing my mind to do what it needs to do. And I love every inch of it. Before that, I would be so self-conscious on certain things. But now it's like, I love who I am. I love my mind and what it's doing at work. Well, not to look at that scale. Who came through a scale, sir? How do you feel? That's the most important thing.
00:45:59
Speaker 1: And looking back, do you feel like there's something you wish you would have known before you started the IVF journey?
00:46:04
Speaker 3: No. I don't know. I think I really enjoyed just enjoying the process. I don't think if anyone ever told me, watch out for this or whatever this may happen, I don't know that would matter because I truly enjoyed figuring it out. Like it was a process of just learning and understanding all the changes that come with IBS. It was a learning curve and I enjoyed every second of it. And there's nothing that I can think of that would have changed that. Because even if someone told me or prepared me for something, it didn't matter. Because at the end of the day, it's going to still be my journey. And I'm going to figure it out either way. So, yeah, I think it was just, I just enjoyed every step. Right.
00:46:54
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
00:46:56
Speaker 1: Well, this has been so great, Dr. Chi, to hear more about your journey and to allow you to share so much information that I think will help so many members of our community. Please let us know where we can stay connected with you to hear the next pieces of the story that will be unfolding soon.
00:47:14
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Next pieces would be baby girl coming out. But my Instagram is the most active I am around and not really asked. underscore Dr.
00:47:26
Speaker 2: Chi.
00:47:27
Speaker 3: And it was both TikTok, same address, but maybe then social media, Instagram. But yeah, this journey has just been so rewarding. And I decided to share the next steps. I still share other things on my page because I still advocate for women. I still advocate for Black internal health. I advocate for mental health and fertility. There's so many things I feel like I need to have a voice for because of being a physician, I do feel obligated to share and educate and bring awareness to all of this information for women. And it's important. And so I hope that my words continue to reign in the able-spirited people. And so that's what you find on our socials, for sure. Perfect.
00:48:13
Speaker 1: We'll be sure.
00:48:14
Speaker 3: And in time, we'll be live.
00:48:15
Speaker 1: Yes, you do have some also very hilarious videos as well. Yes. We'll make sure to include all that information in our show notes. Thank you again for spending some time with us today.
00:48:25
Speaker 3: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully we'll see each other soon.
00:48:28
Speaker 1: Indeed. I'm so glad Dr. Chi came on to share her story. You can find her docuseries and everything else we mentioned in the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com slash session 488. If you've been through infertility or IVF or you're in it now, hop in the comments and tell us what you needed to hear. or come find us on threads at Therapy for Black Girls. And if you're looking for a therapist who works with infertility or pregnancy laws, you can search our directory at therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Ndechubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, a weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small decisions we can make to become the best possible versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or to find a therapist in your area, visit our website at therapyforblackgirls.com. While I hope you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all. Thanks so much for joining me for session 488 of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. On this week's episode... I'm talking with family medicine physician Dr. Chi Johnson about infertility and IVF. Dr. Chi was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency at 33, in the middle of her residency, and the first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs. She's here to tell us what happened next, including what she did when her insurance ran out in the middle of her second round of IVF. Stay with us. Today we're talking about infertility and IVF with a doctor who's been the patient. Dr. Chi Johnson was 33 and in her medical residency when she was diagnosed with primary ovarian insufficiency, which meant her ovaries had almost no eggs left. The first specialist she saw told her nobody would freeze her eggs and sent her home with nothing else. She didn't tell anyone, not even her mom, for two years.
00:02:00
Speaker 2: Dr.
00:02:00
Speaker 1: Chi has been sharing what came after in her docuseries, A Love Story Through Infertility. She told me about the third opinion that finally gave her options, doing hormone injections at 8 a.m. before seeing 18 patients, and the lifetime insurance cap she and her husband ran into mid-treatment. She was pregnant with a baby girl when we spoke, and we also talk about the early pregnancy loss that came before. So please take care while listening. Here's our conversation. Well, thank you so much for joining me today, Dr. Chi.
00:02:35
Speaker 2: Of course.
00:02:35
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. Excited.
00:02:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm very excited to chat with you. So tell us more about the love story through infertility and what this project means to you.
00:02:45
Speaker 3: So a love story through infertility is a documentary series that I posted on basically my journey through infertility. And it was a love story through it. Most people would think of infertility as a rough journey, which it was. but I found love through it. I found love within myself. I found love with my partner, my husband, and I found love with my future baby that I hoped and prayed for. And so it was a story that I felt like it needed to be told. And that's what I did. And I found the most beautiful, eloquent.
00:03:21
Speaker 2: Way to do it through social media, being honest with all my journey throughout the years of dealing with infertility and my diagnosis.
00:03:32
Speaker 3: So that's basically what the DACA series is all about.
00:03:37
Speaker 1: And you shared that you initially did not plan on sharing so publicly about your journey. Is there something that happened that led you to feel like, okay, I need to share this?
00:03:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's tough. I mean, when it comes to something so private and personal, you want to connect to yourself because one of the You're a rarest. You're ashamed. You have all these emotions about a diagnosis that you did not expect to have. And over time, I'm very strong in my faith. And I felt a calling that God wanted me to share with us because it was deeper than me. I am a physician, but I also went through something many women go through as patients. And we don't think about it as enough, especially Black women. And so I felt it was necessary for me to be that voice and to speak on such a touchy, sensitive topic like infertility that many of us are ashamed about, but many of us are dealing with it and stuttering silently. And this was something that I felt it was needed to do. And I'm really glad I did. It wasn't easy, but the outreach, the messages that I received from women all over the world, sharing their own journeys and how much They needed to hear me speak on it, really solidifying that, okay, I did the right thing. I needed to share this story for other people to get hope, to not lose their own hope and to keep that faith in their own diagnosis. So it really meant a lot to be able to get that feedback from other women around the world. I know now I needed to share it. And so I'm very happy I did. Mm-hmm.
00:05:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you know, this is such a complicated medical situation, I think, when you are diagnosed with infertility, kind of going through all the testing, going through all these procedures. And I think a lot of people just feel very ill-equipped, right? Like, how do I know what to do? You know, what do these words mean? And as a physician, right, like you may be somebody who may be better equipped than most to kind of go through this, right? But were there even some situations that you felt ill? ill-equipped to deal with it. And how did you manage that?
00:05:47
Speaker 3: Absolutely. So when I got diagnosed, I was only 33. I was being a new doctor. I was in residency and training. And people are very familiar with PCOS and then matriosis. But my diagnosis was called POI or primary ovarian insufficiency. And basically what that means is that my ovaries were not producing or didn't have enough egg storage left in my ovaries at that age. Other people may call this as early menopause, essentially. And I started having symptoms. I had the red sweats. I had the fatigue and just feeling very off. I didn't know where it was. And so I went to the doctor, got my blood work done, and they said, your blood work is fine. But these symptoms continue for a long time. And I went back, asked more questions, had acquaintances. recommend a blood test to get, which was called AMH. What does that stand for, Dr. G? Anti-malarian hormone. So it's basically a number that will tell you how much eggs, essentially, you have left. It's not a perfect number, but it basically gives you a way to know where your next steps are. And so for me, my AMH, when I got it back, was undetectable. And the doctor initially or the NP that was with me, she said, this must be a lab error because there's no way that you're undetectable numbers at this age. And I agreed as in, this is very odd. So we rechecked it and the numbers still came back undetectable, like so low that may not have anything. So they referred me to a specialist. And during that time, they basically told me with all your labs, your images, You have POI, primary radiosensitivity. And that's when I got my diagnosis. I honestly, as a physician, wasn't aware of this diagnosis. This was something that we studied heavily in med school. You know, it's rare. You may glance over it. But I was really quick with the knowledge to know what to do next. And unfortunately, that physician that saw me He was an older white male, and he did not come after me when he gave me the news, did not have that compassion for me to understand our group. It was more like, this is your diagnosis. I'm sorry, no one will help you right now. We can't freeze your hands. No one will do that. The numbers are too low. And he did not provide any resources to move forward. And so here I am as a 33-year-old woman, a patient, a human, not knowing what to do next. My physician skills went out the window. I didn't have social media right with you now to look at other people's stories or things like that. It was just me. My family and friends know I'm still in infertility. So I definitely felt alone. And that's one of those emotional times where you may know what to do, but you're so stuck in this thought of, And you go into a depression, you go into anxiety, you go into all these emotions that you just kind of shut down. And that's what I did. And so that's how it started. And unfortunately, when they said, you need a physician, yes, I should have done more. Like the person I am now, completely different than what I was years ago. But unfortunately, at that time, I shut down. Mm-hmm.
00:09:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't know that you should have done more. I mean, I think you did what anybody would do, right? Like you said, like training and expertise and all that goes out the window when it's like your experience, right? The thing you might recommend for a patient is different when you find yourself being the patient.
00:09:39
Speaker 3: It was tough. That was tough at that time. Yeah. I would definitely know what to do. But at that stage, it's such an emotional rollercoaster because I was one of the family. I was with somebody, so I was being around there. I grew up with six other students in the house, and so that was something that I cherish. And so someone just told me, like, all right, since it's like, you ain't doing this. It was hurtful. It was hard.
00:10:07
Speaker 1: So what did support look like for you during that time? Like, were there certain people you decided to share that with, and how were they supportive to you?
00:10:15
Speaker 3: So unfortunately, I connected to myself first. I was ashamed. I was embarrassed. Yes, I have family and friends. I could have went to 100%. But it was something that was so painful for me. It was hard to admit it to myself. If you're in that state of mind, if you can't admit it to yourself, how can you tell someone else this news? And I was also going through other personal issues as well. I was in a toxic relationship at the time. So I had a lot of things going against me that didn't allow me to have that freedom to share. this diagnosis. So I kept it to myself for a while. It wasn't until a couple of years later where I finally opened up to my mother and made my mother very close. And it took me that long to share her because it was a very emotional time for me. And so I do have that support system. I just decided not to share it because it was so hard for me to accept it.
00:11:13
Speaker 2: Hmm.
00:11:14
Speaker 1: So you are dealing with all of this by yourself still in school, right? Like you were in your residency, so you were still in training. So there were multiple stresses happening for you.
00:11:23
Speaker 3: Absolutely. It was. It was a dark time, to say it lightly, but it was a dark time. So at that time, I actually finally got away from that toxic relationship. I moved to Houston because I wanted a fresh start. And I thought if I ran away, essentially, everything would be great. But that's not how it works. I'm sure you know. In case you run into a new problem, you've got to deal with it. So I moved to Houston, started fresh, new job, new circles. But then I decided she has time to look into this diagnosis. It's time to get a second, third, or fourth opinion and seek what my options are. And then also try to find myself again. In that toxic relationship, I had somebody telling me physically that that my body wasn't what they wanted. How I looked wasn't exactly what they wanted. And that was another pain point for me. So I had to go back and find myself again and really love who I was again. And so that's part of the love story of my fertility was finding love within me again. Because I didn't have that. I was mad at my body. I was mad at God. I'd ask so many questions. And so I had to fall in love with who I was and remember who I was, that care-driven, smart, ambitious, loving human. I had to find her again. And that's what I ended up doing for the next few years, just working on me. And, yeah, and gathering other opinions from other physicians. And we just somehow give you that call and say, yeah, you have this diagnosis, but there's options out there for you. That's what I saw.
00:13:04
Speaker 1: So what did it look like to try to get those second opinions? Like after you've had one physician say, basically, there's no options there. Like, what are you looking for when you're looking for like a second and third opinion? How did you know that these might be people who would give you more hope and have a better treatment plan for you?
00:13:20
Speaker 3: Well, one for one, I did a little bit. Someone who understands our body and can kind of sympathize with you a little bit more. I needed that connection, a Black woman doctor. I wanted to connect with them again, a different level of being seen. And I did seek out one, but then the missing piece with the second opinion was that she didn't really give me those options of my other options I can do for myself with this diagnosis. And so again, I felt like I felt restricted to this is it. This is the only option you have. You can go in one direction. And so that didn't work well for me and that's okay. And so I found another one. It took, I think, six months to see her because she was so, I guess, booked and busy and really done. So by the time I saw my third opinion, she was everything I needed, wide-febrile, specializes in fertility, and gave me options to look into and to do my research. And also that hope that it's okay. Like, I see you, but let's do this other ultrasound. Let me see what I can see here. Let's see if we can fill the light in this here. And that gave me a sense of like, okay, I can do this. And I was close to stigma at the time, so I still needed some type of connection. And with that position, I left her office just feeling good. I left her office feeling hopeful. And I remember telling her, okay, doc, the next time I see you, I'm going to worry about the future. That's how confident she made me feel right now. I heard that there's a future now. And lo and behold, fast forward a year later, I actually was like eight months later, I came in with my now husband to the doctor's appointment to help me with the next steps of the patrolling journey.
00:15:15
Speaker 1: So can you talk about like some of the options she was able to lay out that you feel like other people had not? Like what kinds of things gave you hope as she identified them?
00:15:24
Speaker 3: Yeah, so when it comes to my diagnosis of POI, your ovaries are low. And so most doctors are just going to tell you, endorse. That's your only option. But there are options as far as things that are being studied. One of them is called ovarian rejuvenation, where they basically take your endoparathyroid, your own platelets and your own cells, And they inject it into your ovaries where they, it's almost like stem cells, and then we generate that air in your ovaries. So you can have these dormant eggs in your ovaries that can come to life, per se. And you're able to do the same things as anyone else would do with stimulation to freeze your eggs. And that was one of the options I had no idea, never even knew about. That gave us hope. It's not offered very often or many places in different facilities around the U.S., but there are facilities that specialize in those procedures. And so that, for me, was eye-opening. It was, oh, wow. And there's also vitamins, certain vitamins that people, women who take can help preserve their eggs as well on their fertility journey and they're not ready to help kids down. There are certain vitamins that certain specialists will recommend for them to take. that have studies that show it can help your journey along the way. So a combination of that, taking care of your lifestyle, eating well, course movements, responsivity, things like that make a big difference in just your overall body and calming down inflammation in your woman-combing region makes such a big difference. And so that was the whole, that was the missing piece that people need, like being depressed and being down or What was me is not a good way to move forward in this journey. You have to be uplifted. You have to have a support system and you have to have faith.
00:17:28
Speaker 1: And so you mentioned that, you know, you were doing this all on your own for a period and then you met your now husband, right? So what were those conversations like? At what point did you share this information with him?
00:17:39
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:17:40
Speaker 3: So when I first met him, I didn't think much of it because I didn't know where this mission was going. But we connected really fast and it ended up being like one of those like, oh, wow, like this is going fast, but really well. And he's so supportive and everything are done. So I think it's time to have the conversation. Those vendors, you know, any relationship, we're going to restore that and have somebody that can be prepared for this type of journey. And so we were on the phone, actually, and I explained to him, I said, hey, I have this diagnosis that I know you are more children, but I want you to know that the journey will not be easy with my diagnosis. And I just want to know if you'd be okay with it. And his first response was, when's the next adoption appointment? I wouldn't be there. This is no longer your journey. This is our journey. And that was everything I needed to hear. I didn't expect to hear that actually. It was beyond the response I was expected. So having a partner that will not only just say he'll be there, but actually does it and supports you in ways you didn't even know you needed, mentally, spiritually, holding you down is the R.R. needed in a journey like this because it's hard to do it alone. But having someone in your corner that uplifts you throughout each step of the way It's powerful that anyone can imagine. Those IVF injections, those doctor's appointments, they take a lot on your body, on any woman's body, but not a lot of the extra stress of a man. If seen, you need that extra positivity in your life that will not only do the injections for you, but will pray for you at night as well, or put a heat pack on your side when you're hurting. So it's been a blessing, honestly, if you really say that. Mm-hmm.
00:19:45
Speaker 1: So it sounds like he, you know, came into the picture pretty early on when you were working with your... newest specialist. So you had taken eight months to a year, it sounds like, to try the things she suggested. So were there another series of testing that you did when you went back to see her and then got good results? Or what was that process like after you went back to see her?
00:20:03
Speaker 3: So since it was early on in our relationship and we're married, very spiritual religious people, it was very hard to move forward with creating flowers when we weren't married yet, right? So we made a hard decision to wait until we moved into that marriage step. And so for a year, from the doctor's appointment to us having traditional Nigerian wedding, we lived and improved our marriage or our relationship and had that foundation of God within us first before pursuing any type of procedures or education or anything like that. So that was hard because with time, as you know, the time, your chances go lower. And so we had to put our feet to God that he knows what we will ultimately want. And so for a year, we just had to trust where we started a new one. So the first step that we did was the very rejuvenation step. And that was, if anything, experimental, you know, you just have to trust that it works for you. And so we'll be bored from there. And that was our first step before anything. And then we continue on with the 20 doctor after that. And so that's probably year two, that was 2024. And then 2025 was officially when we were able to start the IVF process.
00:21:42
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. Our conversations here are just the start. Therapy for Black Girls also connects you to care in your own community. As the year winds down, a lot of us start thinking about what we want to feel in the new year. If finding a therapist is on your list, Start at the Therapy for Black Girls directory, where over 5,000 Black women practitioners are ready to connect. Search at therapyforblackgirls.com. And therapists, this is a great time to make sure you're listed and your profile is ready for the new year. Join us at therapyforblackgirls.com slash start hyphen here. And so what was that process? I know that there are lots of shots and things involved. You see kind of depictions of this, but what in your like real life experience, what was that process?
00:22:37
Speaker 3: So totally before we got the embryos, thankfully. And then 2025 is the time when you start transferring. And I first transferred in January. You never prepared for this. You just never prepared for this, but yeah. It starts with injections. You know, you have the hormones, the progesterone, the estrogen patches. Same time, same day, every day, nothing changes. And you have to stimulate and prepare your body for a baby, essentially. And every day you're doing that, even through work, even through everything, you have to do these steps and you don't know the rest of anything. Even before that, you're getting ultrasounds, you're getting other testing to make sure in your cavity, you don't have these okay. There's so many steps in place in order to be, to hold alive a lady. And so in January, we started the injections for the progesterone, the estrogen patches, and we had her transferred in pretty early on in January. And then after that, I'm kind of wait for a couple of weeks until you get a positive old age of pregnancy test. And unfortunately for us, we did not get across to the parents who test them in that first IVF process. And so we were devastated because I think we didn't, I wasn't expecting many then. I was just like, oh, this is it. I would not imagine the odds of actually getting a positive transfer is not as high as people think. I want to say it's in the, depending on your facility, It can be away from 20 to 30%. So it's not that high to have a successful transfer. And I guess I was just so hopeful. And so to get that negative, it almost was like a gut check, like reality, like, oh, shoot, this may not happen. You go through all that and then you go through, it still may not happen. And so that was hard to, that realization was pretty marked. But we still had hope. And so we were blessed enough to have more embryos to try and get her. And so we did end up trying again in March.
00:24:56
Speaker 1: Do they recommend a specific period, Dr. Chi, where like in between attempts for you to wait before you try again?
00:25:04
Speaker 3: So everyone's different. In my situation, I was able to start pretty soon after my next menstrual cycle. And so because it was negative, I didn't have my body just... was back to how it was right soon after. So I was able to just wait for my next period to end and then run back to the doctor and we just had to enter a next transfer date. And I happened to be immersed. You can wait or you can do other testing to make sure everything is right. There's other things that you can do to make sure the titer is right. You can do another biopsy, a re-uterus. You can do different things to see what went wrong But unfortunately, the majority of failed IMF processes, you never know what happened. You can do everything right. You can eat right. You can have the perfect embryo and it may still not take. And that's the reality of IMF. It's so unknown. And so we just was hopeful. That's the only thing we have is our faith at this point. So we actually did do it again. And successfully had a positive pregnancy test in March. And we were ecstatic. We were like, oh, wow, didn't expect it. But the only thing about this pregnancy was that our numbers were on the low side. And so the doctor was like, we're going to have to keep watching your numbers because they're positive when it's low. The ACG numbers are low. And so we watched it for several weeks. And unfortunately, that pregnancy ended up in a loss. And we had an early pregnancy loss in April. And so that was rather heartache and rather the emotional rollercoaster of what happened. And you're thinking about it today because it's been a year, around a year ago. Yeah. Or you can think about it now. It's just... It's one of those things that I think people don't experience it. It's hard to explain the feeling because you're grieving, right? But there's nothing to see. You're grieving hope. You're grieving what could have been. You're grieving something that happened that could happen in the future but didn't happen for you. And it's really hard to really take that in. And so that was a hard period for both of us. But my husband was ever a home strong for us. But I knew he was like, you're not doing well. You need to see somebody. I can't do this on my own with you. You need to seek help and talk to somebody. And right from the start, it's just one of those things that if you've never been through it, you don't know that you don't have the tools to deal with it. Yeah, that was the next step for me was therapy. during that time.
00:28:12
Speaker 1: Is that the first time in this whole process that you had worked with a therapist?
00:28:16
Speaker 3: No. Okay. This was actually like a specialist therapist, a specialist in miscarriages and loss. And so I wanted to make sure I had somebody that kind of understood this journey.
00:28:29
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:28:29
Speaker 3: I had therapists, I had a couple of therapists in the past when I, I used during the other journeys that I spoke about earlier, just going through that diagnosis and not figuring out, like figuring out what to do. So I have worked with therapists in the past. To me, it is hard to find a good therapist, but you can work in the English. But when you do find one, it's like, okay, I need you. Thank you. So that was a step that I was on in the conference and how to move forward. But I will say, I say this a lot, it's really hard to navigate the two emotions of grief and hope. And understand that they both can still coexist. Because we were still hopeful. Yeah. But I was so sad at the same time.
00:29:18
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:29:18
Speaker 3: And probably scared. Yeah.
00:29:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
00:29:21
Speaker 3: So those two emotions I had to learn that they can't coexist. Even as difficult as it may sound. I learned that. And that was a, that's where I was able to move forward.
00:29:33
Speaker 1: Can you remember anything in particular about working with that therapist during that time that you found really helpful for you as you continue to navigate this journey?
00:29:41
Speaker 3: I do remember telling her, I want to get to a point where I can tell this story and not cry. That was my goal for very long. Because every time I even talked about it, even though I thought about talking about it, the tears just came. And she told me, that's okay. It's okay. You don't have to not worry about it. You can just be. You can feel these emotions and still be fine. It's okay to remember what it was. It's okay to have that hope for what it could be. And so I had to be okay with that process. And I think I was so going home, like, I'm going to get over it. I'm not going to cry about it anymore. But she allowed me to just take my time in this process. And I think that, if anything, that was the most hopeful and helpful thing that she could have done for me.
00:30:45
Speaker 1: And then after the loss in April, when was the next attempt at the transfer?
00:30:51
Speaker 3: So then we took some time away from everything, took a break, wanted to recenter, reset, and really make some changes to our next steps. We wanted to ensure that things were changing, different things were changing for us. So we wanted to just make sure everything's online. And we were stressed. It was a stressful time. So we wanted to be in a place where we were not stressed anymore, where we were still living our lives, spending time with families. And that's what we did. I have a passion for serving. I have a passion for giving back. And so I moved back to doing that, doing things I love to do. I had things for community of women. I had a wall for suicide awareness. I traveled to spend time with my family. We went on our anniversary trip in June. I just wanted to live and just stay in the moment of life and not being stubborn in the past. Because I always said we had hope. It's going to happen. We just said no way. And so all the different changes, changed clinics, we did a lot of different things. We tried again in August and the August. So we took a few several months off before trying again. And so in August, with this new clinic, Something different about the atmosphere. It just felt different. I also tried to do something different, the acupuncture this time as well. And I really felt for some, I don't know, probably crazy. There are some things on it, but I felt better. I felt better. And so in August, we went in and we had our transfer and we found out we were pregnant in September. And that was, the numbers were high this time. It wasn't, oh, let's check the orange. It was like, okay, you're pregnant. And so the joy, I'm like, maybe it's the joy that, I mean, if you go on my Creation of Brian Gotham series, you can find that where I have it. If you find the opening of the email to the positive test, like you can feel how much just seeing that positive test meant And I knew this in my heart. This is it. This is it. It felt amazing, right? I can't even explain in words. Because it's just all the emotions and everything I've been through for the last few years just came pouring out of that one email that just wait. It's going to happen. And the patience really was shown. So it was a joyous moment for us in September last year. And so, yeah, we are pregnant right now. I'm pregnant right now. I don't know. So, yeah, it's been an amazing journey.
00:33:41
Speaker 1: And talk about, like, the emotions that you've had since finding out about the pregnancy in September. Like, what kinds of things have happened for you?
00:33:49
Speaker 3: Oh, it's just, I've just been in a state of gratitude, honestly. Like, everything is just grateful, state of peace. Just really welcoming all the love from my family, the support from my sisters, my brother. our parents, our friends, especially the ones that are new about the journey, and you don't have to be coasting it. It's a different type of love that people show because I also feel like we all have our own battles. And we can see how great I was to share mine. And they're witnessing a miracle, and that gives them hope. It gives them a peace of mind that prayer does work. And I can see that. And so it's really amazing to just be able to share this joy with so many people, to be honest. I know when they see me, they see love. They see connection. And they just see me in a happy state. And I love that. I love that for me, too. So it's just been amazing. And I can't even express how little it's been. But I've been doing every step of the way. Even if I'm nauseous, they laugh. Even if... All right. You'll maybe kick. I think not. It doesn't matter. Like, I am so grateful for every piece of this pregnancy journey.
00:35:14
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break. You mentioned a little while ago that at some point, like your insurance changed. Talk to me about like the insurance piece of this and the cost of this. Like, is this something that is mostly covered by insurance, like all of these steps? Or is this something that you're kind of having to pay for out of pocket?
00:35:40
Speaker 3: OK, a little bit of both. So I would say everyone's insurance is different. But I have come to realize that there's only the cap on fertility. Most insurances will not indefinitely cover. give you money for fertility. No, that's not going to happen. And so initially my, our first two trials were IVF, we used my husband's insurance, but they didn't cap. And so we capped them up. And so I mean, you cap out, you're out lifetime and everything else is out of pocket. So we capped out, like maybe half way through the second one, did one of the second, second one was capped until the rest was out of pocket. And so then we were relocating our own list, trying our own insurance. And so that's what we had to do, change insurances. And then for mine, there's a limited amount. Because I wanted to use my fertility discretion list, my insurance didn't cover her. So I had to pay an additional fee to get her coverage. And so there's still many little pieces that are frustrating, but to us, it's like, it's worth it. We made... have the dental savings, but it's worth it. It's hard. Fertility is not cheap. A lot of women out there want to freeze their ads. They want to start a family, but they just can't afford it. They want to try IVF at the same time, but they just can't afford it. They want to try endovers, but they can't afford it. And it's expensive. I really do wish that the system, a regular system, had more leniency around women in terms of fertility because so many women do this and companies know that. And so that's why the medications are so expensive. We can't go to CVS and just pay for it out of pocket because no one can afford it. You need a service to pay for it. You need a service to pay for just your own shots. You need all this. But it's just so expensive. But I always say to have insurance coverage and a job that helps cover for the ones, things I can't, that doesn't, that can't cover. And that's where the less avenging happens. I know a lot of women don't have that. And so I wish there was something better for a better system. There are some resources that are out there for women to turn to. I don't know all of them, but if they are enrolled to Google resources for infertility, there are some resources that have grants for women showing infertility who want to, who need the assistance. It's out there, not many, but it's out there for some coverage. But in the day, it's so offensive. Yeah, yeah.
00:38:31
Speaker 1: I was going to ask, were there any online or in real life like support groups or communities that you've participated in for maybe other women who are dealing with similar kinds of things? I know those kinds of things can be helpful. Did you use any of that that you want to share?
00:38:45
Speaker 3: So for me, I'm different. I initially did that, but I got off immediately. It's not for everybody. So I initially went on a Facebook group. It was like, I can't remember the name of the group. And initially I was like, okay, these are our stories. But then it also caused me to have fear because we're all going to post things about their own experiences, what we're in the world. And then I remember I was going like, oh, shoot, this may happen to me. This may happen to me. I'm going to work on this and work on that. And so putting me into a state of fear and anxiety. And so it didn't work for me. Most people like me to see that and to hear that. But for me, I'm already a doctor. I know what's in the world already. So now you're telling me another personal experience to talk about my expertise. I can't do that. And so it didn't work for me. I had to get off immediately because it was scaring me of the wrong things. Yes, there are confident, successful stories. And then you start to question, why did they get that? Why didn't they get that? They got it on the first chart. I didn't get it on the first chart. So it could go both ways. But for me, it didn't work. I knew that. I caught it right in my eyes. I was like, this ain't gonna work. Too much anxiety. So I had to keep my story for me. What happened for me was for me. This was my story. This was my journey. And I had to take out of state television. And so that's why those groups, unfortunately, didn't work for me. But I could see why it didn't work for other women. It could be a support group. It can be something where you can pour out what we need or your heart, but it just didn't work. Yeah, yeah.
00:40:23
Speaker 1: You've mentioned several times how much faith and spirituality was a big part of this for both you and your husband. What are some things that you think faith communities could do to better support women who are dealing with these kinds of concerns?
00:40:36
Speaker 3: That's a good question because a lot of us have different spiritual walks, different religions that support us. IVF and don't support IVF. And so it can be isolating a lot of race because there are, it becomes a judgment. For me, I'm Catholic and in the Catholic world, it's not very supported in my learning. But I also have to remember, this is my journey. This is my ownership of God. This is my personal walk. And so my faith has nothing to do with what the man says. This walk is about my personal relationship and my walk and my journey. And so I had to keep that in mind. It's so easy to get caught up in other people's opinions, other people's judgments, and feel like that's for you, but it's not. I encourage women to remember their own relationship with their own guy and how they feel, how God is seeing them. And to kind of silence the noise that comes around and comes around. Because it's not easy. It's not easy. Always remember how it started. How did your relationship start? And continue to develop that relationship with your faith. Because the faith honestly has saved me. If I relied on what other people think or what religion says or what I was supposed to do and not supposed to do, I don't know where I'd be. Having that support from your faith and also the support from your support system, your family, your friends, isn't he? Because you do need it. Like this infertility journey can be so isolating because you feel like you're the only one dealing with it. You feel like no one will understand. Start talking to God first. Have those private conversations first. Write down what you're thinking, how you're feeling in your own private prayer journal. And so that you can reflect that you can pray that these are your voice talking, that nobody else is talking to you. that you can know what you need for yourself and not in opinions of others. So I would say it's definitely tough, but silence and noise around you is what will be key.
00:42:54
Speaker 1: Dr. G, how would you say this experience has changed your relationship to yourself and your body?
00:43:01
Speaker 3: Oh, big way. Changed it in a big way. From what I mentioned before, After meeting with that relationship, the toxic relationship, and I gave a diagnosis, I did not remember myself. I didn't like what my body was doing. I didn't understand why I was doing it. I thought I did everything right, and it still shut down on me. That was lacking in. And going through this whole journey, I realized how much power my body actually has. And it hurt the rest of me that I did not know what my body could go through and how tough it was throughout this time. And I realized that me allowing the noise to judge who I was was a problem. And so as I silenced that, was I open for who I was and what my body could do and what God blessed me with, I believe that's when the strength started. That's when the strength of this whole journey has began suffering so amazing. I didn't know how I was able to get those injections at eight o'clock, go to work and see 18 patients, come back home, do another vaginal insertion, go to bed, wake up again, do the same thing again, and still be moving in a positive spirit and saying, I'm actually going. And so I learned so much that thought about looking a certain way. It's a lot about the opinions of other people and how you look in a dress or how you look in tights or heels. None of that matters. It's what's in here. It's what's in your heart. It's how you feel. How do you feel? Do you have energy? Do you feel like you're split too wide? Like, how do you really feel? And I realized that's the power. How do you feel will trace into how your body looks. And I realized that. And so that's when I ran out of pregnancy. And all these changes are happening.
00:45:10
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:45:10
Speaker 3: Like, that's true power, what my body can really do. Yes, I have all this discoloration of my body. That's beautiful. There's life in me. Yes, I have unstretched marks. Oh, look at that. More life. And so I'm just loving my body, even more. And if I'm about to snap back, I'm not snapping back. I'm just going to take my time and enjoy what I have. I don't have to do that. I'm not pleasing to anybody. but allowing my mind to do what it needs to do. And I love every inch of it. Before that, I would be so self-conscious on certain things. But now it's like, I love who I am. I love my mind and what it's doing at work. Well, not to look at that scale. Who came through a scale, sir? How do you feel? That's the most important thing.
00:45:59
Speaker 1: And looking back, do you feel like there's something you wish you would have known before you started the IVF journey?
00:46:04
Speaker 3: No. I don't know. I think I really enjoyed just enjoying the process. I don't think if anyone ever told me, watch out for this or whatever this may happen, I don't know that would matter because I truly enjoyed figuring it out. Like it was a process of just learning and understanding all the changes that come with IBS. It was a learning curve and I enjoyed every second of it. And there's nothing that I can think of that would have changed that. Because even if someone told me or prepared me for something, it didn't matter. Because at the end of the day, it's going to still be my journey. And I'm going to figure it out either way. So, yeah, I think it was just, I just enjoyed every step. Right.
00:46:54
Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
00:46:56
Speaker 1: Well, this has been so great, Dr. Chi, to hear more about your journey and to allow you to share so much information that I think will help so many members of our community. Please let us know where we can stay connected with you to hear the next pieces of the story that will be unfolding soon.
00:47:14
Speaker 3: Oh, yeah. Next pieces would be baby girl coming out. But my Instagram is the most active I am around and not really asked. underscore Dr.
00:47:26
Speaker 2: Chi.
00:47:27
Speaker 3: And it was both TikTok, same address, but maybe then social media, Instagram. But yeah, this journey has just been so rewarding. And I decided to share the next steps. I still share other things on my page because I still advocate for women. I still advocate for Black internal health. I advocate for mental health and fertility. There's so many things I feel like I need to have a voice for because of being a physician, I do feel obligated to share and educate and bring awareness to all of this information for women. And it's important. And so I hope that my words continue to reign in the able-spirited people. And so that's what you find on our socials, for sure. Perfect.
00:48:13
Speaker 1: We'll be sure.
00:48:14
Speaker 3: And in time, we'll be live.
00:48:15
Speaker 1: Yes, you do have some also very hilarious videos as well. Yes. We'll make sure to include all that information in our show notes. Thank you again for spending some time with us today.
00:48:25
Speaker 3: Of course. Thank you so much for having me. Hopefully we'll see each other soon.
00:48:28
Speaker 1: Indeed. I'm so glad Dr. Chi came on to share her story. You can find her docuseries and everything else we mentioned in the show notes at therapyforblackgirls.com slash session 488. If you've been through infertility or IVF or you're in it now, hop in the comments and tell us what you needed to hear. or come find us on threads at Therapy for Black Girls. And if you're looking for a therapist who works with infertility or pregnancy laws, you can search our directory at therapyforblackgirls.com. This episode was produced by Elise Ellis, Ndechubu, and Bria Mosley. Editing was done by Denison Bradford. Thank y'all so much for joining me again this week. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all real soon. Take good care.
