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Speaker 1: Hey, y'all.
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Speaker 2: Welcome back to I Have Some Thoughts, our Therapy for Black Girls mini-series where we talk about all things pop culture, but of course, from a mental health lens. And I am joined again this week with Elise.
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Speaker 1: Hey, Elise. Hey, Dr.
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Speaker 3: Joy. I'm so excited for this week's roundup. I feel like we have a lot of interesting things to talk about, as always. But these are some of the hot topics that I think people have been wanting to get your perspective on.
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Speaker 1: So are you ready? I'm ready.
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Speaker 3: Okay, so we have to start with the influencers at the US Open. At this year's US Open, a growing presence of influencers and content creators has sparked controversy around tennis etiquette. During Naomi Osaka's first round match, a group of influencers in a suite were taking photos and moving around, using ring lights, doing all the things that influencers do during the match. And that prompted the umpire to intervene. The USTA has significantly expanded influencer access this year as part of its effort to bring in new audience to tennis, which is really exciting. But the incident has raised questions about what happens when people who are newer to our particular culture enter spaces with longstanding rules and traditions. And I'm curious, how do we distinguish between assimilation and learning how to appropriately participate in a new environment? Because I know a lot of the rules and regulations and dress codes sometimes can feel like racially motivated, pointed towards a certain gender. So how do we hold all of that while entering a new culture?
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Speaker 1: Ooh, this is such a good question. I have definitely been paying attention to some of the conversation.
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Speaker 2: I think the difference between assimilation and then.
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Speaker 1: Abiding by the rules.
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Speaker 2: Of a particular culture, To me, indicate that assimilation in my mind means that you are giving up some of who you are or things that are really important to you to try to fit in with a different place.
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Speaker 1: And to me, abiding by rules just.
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Speaker 2: Mean that temporarily while you are in this setting, you are doing the things that are dictated by whatever the environment is. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. I mean, especially in a situation where we're talking about so much is on the line, right? Like we are there to watch people at the top of their game and the concentration, of.
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Speaker 1: Course, is really important, right?
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Speaker 2: Like things that are distracting, like the rules, I think for a lot of situations are there for a particular reason. And so I think when we say, hey, I wanna go to this thing, I wanna participate in this activity, then it is important for us to understand what are the guidelines that govern the culture And we can make a decision about whether that's something we want to participate in or not. But I think if we decide to participate, then we need to be following kind of the rules set by the culture.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that answers my second question about what responsibility do we have to educate ourselves when entering new spaces we are unfamiliar with? Because I think a big part of it is just knowing, hey, for this two hours that I'm going to be here, I may have to just not use my ring light, be a little bit more quiet, find other types of content to record that doesn't require me to distract what's going on in the environment. I think there's another thread here about how we talk about these instances, because a lot of it, you people kind of separating themselves from a certain type of Black people. And I'm curious how you think we can have more care when we talk about, you know, the way Black people are perceived in public, influencer or not.
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Speaker 1: I definitely think that that is not appropriate, right?
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Speaker 2: Like I think, especially as a psychologist, right, like care and compassion, I think should be at the center.
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Speaker 1: Of many of the ways that we talk about and interact with one another. And I think that there is a way.
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Speaker 2: To disapprove of behavior or say that something is not for you without throwing a person away or making a judgment call about who this person is or where they might come from.
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Speaker 1: I don't think that any.
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Speaker 2: Of that is necessary to say like, hey, these are the kinds of things we do when we're at a tennis match. Right. But I also want to add at least that I also think it's really important for the brands because I understand that this was like a brand kind of thing. Right. Like I think the brands also assume some responsibility for making sure that the people they are bringing to certain events like this understand like what are the expectations of the environment. I think that that's a part of the conversation that needs to be highlighted as well.
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Speaker 3: I 100% agree. In the same way you get a brief to make content, you should have a brief of the rules and expectations of the event you're going to.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 3: Okay, so moving right along, we're going to talk about Raven-Symoné and That's So Raven. A resurfaced conversation between Raven-Symoné and comedian Callan Allen has sparked debate about the Blackness of her iconic Disney character, Raven Baxter. While discussing how Black identity can look different from person to person, Allen described Raven as deeply Black, prompting Simone.
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Speaker 1: To ask, was she Black? Why did she feel Black to you?
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Speaker 3: Then suggested imagining the Baxter family as another color and focusing.
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Speaker 1: On their words rather than race.
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Speaker 3: These comments have surprised fans who grew up seeing That's So Raven as a major representation of Black girlhood, particularly because The show itself regularly addressed race and identity. So who gets to define what Blackness looks and feels like? And why can it be particularly jarring when someone who gave us representation later seems to reject the significance of that representation?
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Speaker 2: So I will first pull my auntie card again. I feel like so many of the topics I'm pulling my auntie card that I'm a little older than like the demographic that was really like heavily watching that. So Raven, like Raven Simone to me was introduced on the Cosby show.
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Speaker 1: That's my frame of reference. But of course, through.
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Speaker 2: You and like other members of the team who like this was like your thing. I am learning more about like how important, and of course I knew some of this anyway. I think Blackness is something that I think is both deeply personal, but also like there are some cultural ties, right? And so when you ask like who gets to define Blackness, like I think that there are ways that People who identify as Black get to do that for themselves, right? Like my definition of Blackness doesn't necessarily look like yours. And it doesn't have to for us to be able to respect each other as Black women. But I do think that it does.
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Speaker 1: Feel like a bit of a slap in the face.
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Speaker 2: For something that has been so important to so many people, right?
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Speaker 1: Like, I don't know all of the history, but I feel.
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Speaker 2: Like maybe Raven was like one of the first, if not the first, like Black girl star on Disney, right? And so, you know, when we have kind of grown up and so many people have grown up watching Disney to see somebody that looks like you and You know, there were conversations around racism and like topics that maybe you had not seen addressed in other shows. So for that person who has meant so much to you and maybe introduced so many of these conversations to you to then come back years later and say, oh, like, how do we know that she was black? Now, you may now see your participation in that show differently. But it doesn't mean that you have to kind of gaslight and act as if the rest of us did not see what we saw.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: And so, you know, to ask that question of like, well, how do we know she was black? Well, because there were racism episodes and like so much of the conversations and the content were racist. things that were deeply personal, I think, and that Black audiences intimately were aware of. And so again, I think now maybe she, I don't know what Raven's relationship to this content is now in later years.
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Speaker 1: It feels like maybe she has a change of opinion.
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Speaker 2: She was too young, I think, to really understand maybe the significance of what she was doing then.
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Speaker 1: But we all know what we saw.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: And what it meant to us.
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Speaker 2: And so I think it does feel like a bit of a slap in the face for years later for it now to be like, oh, well, how do you know she was black?
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Speaker 1: Like, I think it causes you to question.
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Speaker 2: Like, oh, well, should I have had feelings about that? You know, like maybe it wasn't what I thought.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: And I don't think that that is OK for.
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Speaker 2: Them there to be this mass questioning of like, oh, what did we see?
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Speaker 3: I definitely have a lot of empathy for her, especially with you saying like she was so young and she may just have a different relationship to the content and to the industry.
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Speaker 1: Something that it also brings up.
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Speaker 3: For me is how race and like the construction of race is so varied. A big part of it is phenotype, it is skin tone, but it's also tone of voice and inflection and choice of words. And like you said, some of the scenarios which the characters experience had to navigate or how other characters treated them that inform like how we view or construct their race without them saying it explicitly. A lot of the things I was thinking about were, wow, what is Raven-Symoné's like understanding of race? And is it stuck to color and not culture? Because it's very interesting for me to hear her say, oh, listen to the things they were saying. And I'm like, if I close my eyes and listen to that, so Raven, I think I would come to the conclusion that I was a Black family. So it also got me to consider how more and more people are thinking about race and what makes someone a part of a racial group.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I think the concerning part for me when things like this happen is that I think the Black community is just so welcoming, right? And again, for somebody like Raven, who has meant, I think, so much to a lot of us entertainment-wise, it can feel really like confusing as to like, well, why doesn't she want to be a part of us?
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Speaker 1: Right? Like when we have kind of celebrated her and held her up.
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Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of people kind of take it personal that like, I think I've heard her say on occasion, like she doesn't identify as black. And so I think for a lot of people, it's really confusing and it feels really hurtful to have somebody do that. But I think we have to allow people to make their own decisions about how they identify. Right now, not a Rachel Dolezal kind of situation. Somebody who we interpret and, you know, by all evidence, maybe looks black and they are not wanting to claim that, then I don't think we can want that more for them than they want it for themselves.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: And so I think we've got to be OK with people defining themselves for their own sake.
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Speaker 1: And maybe wishing them well from a distance, right?
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Speaker 2: Like, if you don't want to be attached to the community, then that means then you maybe don't get the celebration and all of the accolades that come with community participation, because it should be a reciprocal kind of thing. Like, you can't have the joy and accolades of being Black, but then want to divorce yourself from Blackness, like when it matters or when you're called to the carpet about it.
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Speaker 3: I'm so glad you called that out, because that has been something that I've seen from a lot of like celebrities or people with influence in a profile, it's like, oh, it kind of seems like you only want to identify with this when it's the praise and when it's the glory. And I don't even want to go all the way to say they don't want to identify it when it's like tougher things. Sometimes I think it's just more substantive conversations about Blackness. People are like, okay, that's too much for me. And I think that is what's hurtful, especially as someone who is like, monoracial Black, you can't question that. It's like, I don't want that option, but I also don't have the option to opt in and opt out of Blackness in that way.
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Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break.
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Speaker 3: Speaking of, you know, uncomfortable conversations, we are going to talk about Vic Mensah and Chance the Rapper's open conversation on the first.
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Speaker 1: Episode of The Vent Mensah Show.
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Speaker 3: The two sat down to discuss their decades-long friendship, including a falling out that neither has fully addressed publicly.
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Speaker 1: One of the most.
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Speaker 3: Emotional moments came when they revisited Chance's decision not to bring Vic on tour during the period when Chance's career was taking off. Chance acknowledged that his explanation at the time, which was that he didn't want Vic to open because he considered them to be, you know, around the same level of fame, wasn't really the truth. He admitted that he didn't want to share the spotlight or the money. Mensa became emotional, remembering the decision, explaining that he was struggling financially at the time and the rejection hurt deeply.
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Speaker 1: Ooh, this was a lot.
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Speaker 3: How do we process hurt when the person who hurt us is someone we love? And then how do we decide if something's worth bringing up years later?
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Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So, you know, I think things hurt the most when it is someone we love. Right. And so I'm not surprised that there is still all of this feeling that an unresolved kind of conversation here because it seems like this is the first time that they're ever talking about it. I'm also really curious how they made the decision to like make this a public conversation, right? Like if we've not talked about this before, doing it on a podcast in front of like.
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Speaker 1: The world to me is a curious choice.
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Speaker 2: So I wonder like what happened in the background that made them think like, oh, we're going to have this conversation here.
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Speaker 1: But I think it is really hurtful, right?
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Speaker 2: When there is an opportunity that could have been life changing for the both of you and then somebody you considered a friend doesn't include you.
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Speaker 1: Like, I think that that is very, very painful.
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Speaker 2: And I think that you get to then decide what the relationship looks like.
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Speaker 1: On the other end of that. Right. I don't know. I didn't watch the full clip of this.
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Speaker 2: It seems like there was some apologizing and I'm not sure where the relationship goes after this. But I think that it is a very deeply painful relationship. kind of situation to know that this opportunity could have been afforded to you when you really needed it. And somebody that you considered in your corner did not give you that opportunity.
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Speaker 1: That's really hurtful.
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Speaker 3: I'm curious your thoughts on a lot of people are young creatives and a lot of their peers are in the same spot as them or working in the same circles.
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Speaker 1: And then someone may take off.
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Speaker 3: I have empathy for chance and feeling like a responsibility for your peers' success as well, especially because you came up with them, because they supported you. How do you hold both knowing that you have to sometimes maybe be a bit selfish and not in a negative way, just focus on yourself, but realize there is a community that supported you, but all of the ills or the gaps or the systematic things that are holding them back or not having them see the same success as you, those are things you also can't alleviate immediately.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I appreciate you calling out this duality because I think that that is a very complicated situation, right? Like everybody, especially like you mentioned this creative space, like people are just trying to get their big break and get their opportunity. And so I think what Chance was maybe feeling was this, oh, I can't share this because like, this is my opportunity, right? And if I don't take it and seize it, then am I going to get another one, right? But the truth of it, at least the way that I see it, is that your opportunity does not preclude anybody else's opportunity, right? Like I think that there is enough spotlight, there's enough shine for everybody to have come up, right?
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Speaker 1: Because everybody would have gotten paid. Like he was opening.
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Speaker 2: He wasn't necessarily going to be on the stage with you the entire time. But I do think that when you are struggling and like this seems like your big, one big opportunity, it can be very difficult to make a decision that includes other people. And I agree with you that it does sound like there is a sense of responsibility that is either maybe that is entitled and maybe not. But I do think that we cannot think that there's only enough spotlight for one person. I think that there are often lots of opportunities and you are going to get your thing regardless of what these opportunities or what the situation looks like. And so to be able to have given him this opportunity I think would have been really cool. But I also like you empathize with this idea that, okay, I got to seize this moment just for myself because what if I don't get another one? Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I have one more question for you on this topic. What does it take to rebuild trust after someone we love makes a decision that fundamentally changes how we see them, but even more specifically to this situation, um, For years, we're thinking the reasoning or the context around the situation is one thing and it's revealed it's another. So I feel like there are kind of two levels of mistrust. It's that, oh, I feel distance from you. You hurt me, but also the way in which you hurt me was a little bit deceptive.
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Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
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Speaker 2: So one, I think that it is important to know that trust being rebuilt really is dictated by the person whose trust has been broken.
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Speaker 1: So in this case, you know.
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Speaker 2: Like Chance apologizing maybe is the first step in them rebuilding. Now, it sounds like there already has been a bit of a rebuilding because he was on this episode with him. But I wonder, again, if that changes now post this conversation.
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Speaker 1: Again, we don't know.
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Speaker 2: But I think you know, now Vic is the one who gets to dictate, like, what does that look like?
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Speaker 1: Like, what does he feel like.
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Speaker 2: He needs to be able to have trust rebuild? And I think for any of us, when our trust has been broken, great, if we get an apology, now what else do you feel like you need? Do you feel like you need them to show you different kinds of situations where your trust is not broken? Or do you feel like it was so big of a betrayal that you don't feel like you can ever trust the person again? Because that's fair also, right? Like when we have broken somebody's trust, we don't then get to dictate that they should just be over it. Sometimes transgressions are so big that it means that even though I accept your apology, I don't know that I can trust you again.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: I think that can be a hard pill to swallow from both people, just realizing that someone may not trust you, but also you may not have the capacity to let that person back in.
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Speaker 1: But I'm happy.
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Speaker 3: You know, I think it was really good to see two old friends talk through conflict because having hard conversations like that is not easy.
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Speaker 1: No, it definitely isn't. But it is really important.
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Speaker 2: You know, again, if they had had this conversation maybe even earlier in their career, who knows what could have happened. But I agree with you that I'm glad they're having it at least now.
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Speaker 1: Yeah.
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Speaker 3: Well, those are all of our topics for today. Thank you so much for your insight, Dr. Joy.
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Speaker 1: Thank you, Elise. Great topics as always.
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Speaker 2: And if there are things that are going down your algorithm or down your timeline that you want us to weigh in, please send those to us. You can do that at therapyforblackgirls.com slash mailbox. And until next time, take good care.
Speaker 1: Hey, y'all.
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Speaker 2: Welcome back to I Have Some Thoughts, our Therapy for Black Girls mini-series where we talk about all things pop culture, but of course, from a mental health lens. And I am joined again this week with Elise.
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Speaker 1: Hey, Elise. Hey, Dr.
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Speaker 3: Joy. I'm so excited for this week's roundup. I feel like we have a lot of interesting things to talk about, as always. But these are some of the hot topics that I think people have been wanting to get your perspective on.
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Speaker 1: So are you ready? I'm ready.
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Speaker 3: Okay, so we have to start with the influencers at the US Open. At this year's US Open, a growing presence of influencers and content creators has sparked controversy around tennis etiquette. During Naomi Osaka's first round match, a group of influencers in a suite were taking photos and moving around, using ring lights, doing all the things that influencers do during the match. And that prompted the umpire to intervene. The USTA has significantly expanded influencer access this year as part of its effort to bring in new audience to tennis, which is really exciting. But the incident has raised questions about what happens when people who are newer to our particular culture enter spaces with longstanding rules and traditions. And I'm curious, how do we distinguish between assimilation and learning how to appropriately participate in a new environment? Because I know a lot of the rules and regulations and dress codes sometimes can feel like racially motivated, pointed towards a certain gender. So how do we hold all of that while entering a new culture?
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Speaker 1: Ooh, this is such a good question. I have definitely been paying attention to some of the conversation.
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Speaker 2: I think the difference between assimilation and then.
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Speaker 1: Abiding by the rules.
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Speaker 2: Of a particular culture, To me, indicate that assimilation in my mind means that you are giving up some of who you are or things that are really important to you to try to fit in with a different place.
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Speaker 1: And to me, abiding by rules just.
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Speaker 2: Mean that temporarily while you are in this setting, you are doing the things that are dictated by whatever the environment is. And I don't think that there is anything wrong with that. I mean, especially in a situation where we're talking about so much is on the line, right? Like we are there to watch people at the top of their game and the concentration, of.
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Speaker 1: Course, is really important, right?
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Speaker 2: Like things that are distracting, like the rules, I think for a lot of situations are there for a particular reason. And so I think when we say, hey, I wanna go to this thing, I wanna participate in this activity, then it is important for us to understand what are the guidelines that govern the culture And we can make a decision about whether that's something we want to participate in or not. But I think if we decide to participate, then we need to be following kind of the rules set by the culture.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, that answers my second question about what responsibility do we have to educate ourselves when entering new spaces we are unfamiliar with? Because I think a big part of it is just knowing, hey, for this two hours that I'm going to be here, I may have to just not use my ring light, be a little bit more quiet, find other types of content to record that doesn't require me to distract what's going on in the environment. I think there's another thread here about how we talk about these instances, because a lot of it, you people kind of separating themselves from a certain type of Black people. And I'm curious how you think we can have more care when we talk about, you know, the way Black people are perceived in public, influencer or not.
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Speaker 1: I definitely think that that is not appropriate, right?
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Speaker 2: Like I think, especially as a psychologist, right, like care and compassion, I think should be at the center.
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Speaker 1: Of many of the ways that we talk about and interact with one another. And I think that there is a way.
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Speaker 2: To disapprove of behavior or say that something is not for you without throwing a person away or making a judgment call about who this person is or where they might come from.
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Speaker 1: I don't think that any.
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Speaker 2: Of that is necessary to say like, hey, these are the kinds of things we do when we're at a tennis match. Right. But I also want to add at least that I also think it's really important for the brands because I understand that this was like a brand kind of thing. Right. Like I think the brands also assume some responsibility for making sure that the people they are bringing to certain events like this understand like what are the expectations of the environment. I think that that's a part of the conversation that needs to be highlighted as well.
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Speaker 3: I 100% agree. In the same way you get a brief to make content, you should have a brief of the rules and expectations of the event you're going to.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 3: Okay, so moving right along, we're going to talk about Raven-Symoné and That's So Raven. A resurfaced conversation between Raven-Symoné and comedian Callan Allen has sparked debate about the Blackness of her iconic Disney character, Raven Baxter. While discussing how Black identity can look different from person to person, Allen described Raven as deeply Black, prompting Simone.
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Speaker 1: To ask, was she Black? Why did she feel Black to you?
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Speaker 3: Then suggested imagining the Baxter family as another color and focusing.
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Speaker 1: On their words rather than race.
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Speaker 3: These comments have surprised fans who grew up seeing That's So Raven as a major representation of Black girlhood, particularly because The show itself regularly addressed race and identity. So who gets to define what Blackness looks and feels like? And why can it be particularly jarring when someone who gave us representation later seems to reject the significance of that representation?
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Speaker 2: So I will first pull my auntie card again. I feel like so many of the topics I'm pulling my auntie card that I'm a little older than like the demographic that was really like heavily watching that. So Raven, like Raven Simone to me was introduced on the Cosby show.
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Speaker 1: That's my frame of reference. But of course, through.
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Speaker 2: You and like other members of the team who like this was like your thing. I am learning more about like how important, and of course I knew some of this anyway. I think Blackness is something that I think is both deeply personal, but also like there are some cultural ties, right? And so when you ask like who gets to define Blackness, like I think that there are ways that People who identify as Black get to do that for themselves, right? Like my definition of Blackness doesn't necessarily look like yours. And it doesn't have to for us to be able to respect each other as Black women. But I do think that it does.
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Speaker 1: Feel like a bit of a slap in the face.
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Speaker 2: For something that has been so important to so many people, right?
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Speaker 1: Like, I don't know all of the history, but I feel.
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Speaker 2: Like maybe Raven was like one of the first, if not the first, like Black girl star on Disney, right? And so, you know, when we have kind of grown up and so many people have grown up watching Disney to see somebody that looks like you and You know, there were conversations around racism and like topics that maybe you had not seen addressed in other shows. So for that person who has meant so much to you and maybe introduced so many of these conversations to you to then come back years later and say, oh, like, how do we know that she was black? Now, you may now see your participation in that show differently. But it doesn't mean that you have to kind of gaslight and act as if the rest of us did not see what we saw.
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Speaker 1: Right.
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Speaker 2: And so, you know, to ask that question of like, well, how do we know she was black? Well, because there were racism episodes and like so much of the conversations and the content were racist. things that were deeply personal, I think, and that Black audiences intimately were aware of. And so again, I think now maybe she, I don't know what Raven's relationship to this content is now in later years.
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Speaker 1: It feels like maybe she has a change of opinion.
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Speaker 2: She was too young, I think, to really understand maybe the significance of what she was doing then.
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Speaker 1: But we all know what we saw.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 1: And what it meant to us.
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Speaker 2: And so I think it does feel like a bit of a slap in the face for years later for it now to be like, oh, well, how do you know she was black?
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Speaker 1: Like, I think it causes you to question.
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Speaker 2: Like, oh, well, should I have had feelings about that? You know, like maybe it wasn't what I thought.
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Speaker 3: Right.
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Speaker 1: And I don't think that that is OK for.
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Speaker 2: Them there to be this mass questioning of like, oh, what did we see?
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Speaker 3: I definitely have a lot of empathy for her, especially with you saying like she was so young and she may just have a different relationship to the content and to the industry.
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Speaker 1: Something that it also brings up.
00:08:34
Speaker 3: For me is how race and like the construction of race is so varied. A big part of it is phenotype, it is skin tone, but it's also tone of voice and inflection and choice of words. And like you said, some of the scenarios which the characters experience had to navigate or how other characters treated them that inform like how we view or construct their race without them saying it explicitly. A lot of the things I was thinking about were, wow, what is Raven-Symoné's like understanding of race? And is it stuck to color and not culture? Because it's very interesting for me to hear her say, oh, listen to the things they were saying. And I'm like, if I close my eyes and listen to that, so Raven, I think I would come to the conclusion that I was a Black family. So it also got me to consider how more and more people are thinking about race and what makes someone a part of a racial group.
00:09:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:09:32
Speaker 2: I think the concerning part for me when things like this happen is that I think the Black community is just so welcoming, right? And again, for somebody like Raven, who has meant, I think, so much to a lot of us entertainment-wise, it can feel really like confusing as to like, well, why doesn't she want to be a part of us?
00:09:52
Speaker 1: Right? Like when we have kind of celebrated her and held her up.
00:09:55
Speaker 2: And so I think a lot of people kind of take it personal that like, I think I've heard her say on occasion, like she doesn't identify as black. And so I think for a lot of people, it's really confusing and it feels really hurtful to have somebody do that. But I think we have to allow people to make their own decisions about how they identify. Right now, not a Rachel Dolezal kind of situation. Somebody who we interpret and, you know, by all evidence, maybe looks black and they are not wanting to claim that, then I don't think we can want that more for them than they want it for themselves.
00:10:26
Speaker 1: Right.
00:10:27
Speaker 2: And so I think we've got to be OK with people defining themselves for their own sake.
00:10:31
Speaker 1: And maybe wishing them well from a distance, right?
00:10:33
Speaker 2: Like, if you don't want to be attached to the community, then that means then you maybe don't get the celebration and all of the accolades that come with community participation, because it should be a reciprocal kind of thing. Like, you can't have the joy and accolades of being Black, but then want to divorce yourself from Blackness, like when it matters or when you're called to the carpet about it.
00:10:54
Speaker 3: I'm so glad you called that out, because that has been something that I've seen from a lot of like celebrities or people with influence in a profile, it's like, oh, it kind of seems like you only want to identify with this when it's the praise and when it's the glory. And I don't even want to go all the way to say they don't want to identify it when it's like tougher things. Sometimes I think it's just more substantive conversations about Blackness. People are like, okay, that's too much for me. And I think that is what's hurtful, especially as someone who is like, monoracial Black, you can't question that. It's like, I don't want that option, but I also don't have the option to opt in and opt out of Blackness in that way.
00:11:38
Speaker 1: More from our conversation after the break.
00:11:43
Speaker 3: Speaking of, you know, uncomfortable conversations, we are going to talk about Vic Mensah and Chance the Rapper's open conversation on the first.
00:11:51
Speaker 1: Episode of The Vent Mensah Show.
00:11:54
Speaker 3: The two sat down to discuss their decades-long friendship, including a falling out that neither has fully addressed publicly.
00:12:01
Speaker 1: One of the most.
00:12:01
Speaker 3: Emotional moments came when they revisited Chance's decision not to bring Vic on tour during the period when Chance's career was taking off. Chance acknowledged that his explanation at the time, which was that he didn't want Vic to open because he considered them to be, you know, around the same level of fame, wasn't really the truth. He admitted that he didn't want to share the spotlight or the money. Mensa became emotional, remembering the decision, explaining that he was struggling financially at the time and the rejection hurt deeply.
00:12:29
Speaker 1: Ooh, this was a lot.
00:12:31
Speaker 3: How do we process hurt when the person who hurt us is someone we love? And then how do we decide if something's worth bringing up years later?
00:12:40
Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah.
00:12:42
Speaker 2: So, you know, I think things hurt the most when it is someone we love. Right. And so I'm not surprised that there is still all of this feeling that an unresolved kind of conversation here because it seems like this is the first time that they're ever talking about it. I'm also really curious how they made the decision to like make this a public conversation, right? Like if we've not talked about this before, doing it on a podcast in front of like.
00:13:04
Speaker 1: The world to me is a curious choice.
00:13:07
Speaker 2: So I wonder like what happened in the background that made them think like, oh, we're going to have this conversation here.
00:13:12
Speaker 1: But I think it is really hurtful, right?
00:13:15
Speaker 2: When there is an opportunity that could have been life changing for the both of you and then somebody you considered a friend doesn't include you.
00:13:23
Speaker 1: Like, I think that that is very, very painful.
00:13:25
Speaker 2: And I think that you get to then decide what the relationship looks like.
00:13:29
Speaker 1: On the other end of that. Right. I don't know. I didn't watch the full clip of this.
00:13:33
Speaker 2: It seems like there was some apologizing and I'm not sure where the relationship goes after this. But I think that it is a very deeply painful relationship. kind of situation to know that this opportunity could have been afforded to you when you really needed it. And somebody that you considered in your corner did not give you that opportunity.
00:13:52
Speaker 1: That's really hurtful.
00:13:54
Speaker 3: I'm curious your thoughts on a lot of people are young creatives and a lot of their peers are in the same spot as them or working in the same circles.
00:14:05
Speaker 1: And then someone may take off.
00:14:08
Speaker 3: I have empathy for chance and feeling like a responsibility for your peers' success as well, especially because you came up with them, because they supported you. How do you hold both knowing that you have to sometimes maybe be a bit selfish and not in a negative way, just focus on yourself, but realize there is a community that supported you, but all of the ills or the gaps or the systematic things that are holding them back or not having them see the same success as you, those are things you also can't alleviate immediately.
00:14:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:14:43
Speaker 2: I appreciate you calling out this duality because I think that that is a very complicated situation, right? Like everybody, especially like you mentioned this creative space, like people are just trying to get their big break and get their opportunity. And so I think what Chance was maybe feeling was this, oh, I can't share this because like, this is my opportunity, right? And if I don't take it and seize it, then am I going to get another one, right? But the truth of it, at least the way that I see it, is that your opportunity does not preclude anybody else's opportunity, right? Like I think that there is enough spotlight, there's enough shine for everybody to have come up, right?
00:15:17
Speaker 1: Because everybody would have gotten paid. Like he was opening.
00:15:20
Speaker 2: He wasn't necessarily going to be on the stage with you the entire time. But I do think that when you are struggling and like this seems like your big, one big opportunity, it can be very difficult to make a decision that includes other people. And I agree with you that it does sound like there is a sense of responsibility that is either maybe that is entitled and maybe not. But I do think that we cannot think that there's only enough spotlight for one person. I think that there are often lots of opportunities and you are going to get your thing regardless of what these opportunities or what the situation looks like. And so to be able to have given him this opportunity I think would have been really cool. But I also like you empathize with this idea that, okay, I got to seize this moment just for myself because what if I don't get another one? Yeah.
00:16:08
Speaker 3: I have one more question for you on this topic. What does it take to rebuild trust after someone we love makes a decision that fundamentally changes how we see them, but even more specifically to this situation, um, For years, we're thinking the reasoning or the context around the situation is one thing and it's revealed it's another. So I feel like there are kind of two levels of mistrust. It's that, oh, I feel distance from you. You hurt me, but also the way in which you hurt me was a little bit deceptive.
00:16:41
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
00:16:43
Speaker 2: So one, I think that it is important to know that trust being rebuilt really is dictated by the person whose trust has been broken.
00:16:51
Speaker 1: So in this case, you know.
00:16:53
Speaker 2: Like Chance apologizing maybe is the first step in them rebuilding. Now, it sounds like there already has been a bit of a rebuilding because he was on this episode with him. But I wonder, again, if that changes now post this conversation.
00:17:05
Speaker 1: Again, we don't know.
00:17:06
Speaker 2: But I think you know, now Vic is the one who gets to dictate, like, what does that look like?
00:17:12
Speaker 1: Like, what does he feel like.
00:17:13
Speaker 2: He needs to be able to have trust rebuild? And I think for any of us, when our trust has been broken, great, if we get an apology, now what else do you feel like you need? Do you feel like you need them to show you different kinds of situations where your trust is not broken? Or do you feel like it was so big of a betrayal that you don't feel like you can ever trust the person again? Because that's fair also, right? Like when we have broken somebody's trust, we don't then get to dictate that they should just be over it. Sometimes transgressions are so big that it means that even though I accept your apology, I don't know that I can trust you again.
00:17:49
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:17:50
Speaker 3: I think that can be a hard pill to swallow from both people, just realizing that someone may not trust you, but also you may not have the capacity to let that person back in.
00:18:00
Speaker 1: But I'm happy.
00:18:01
Speaker 3: You know, I think it was really good to see two old friends talk through conflict because having hard conversations like that is not easy.
00:18:09
Speaker 1: No, it definitely isn't. But it is really important.
00:18:12
Speaker 2: You know, again, if they had had this conversation maybe even earlier in their career, who knows what could have happened. But I agree with you that I'm glad they're having it at least now.
00:18:20
Speaker 1: Yeah.
00:18:20
Speaker 3: Well, those are all of our topics for today. Thank you so much for your insight, Dr. Joy.
00:18:25
Speaker 1: Thank you, Elise. Great topics as always.
00:18:27
Speaker 2: And if there are things that are going down your algorithm or down your timeline that you want us to weigh in, please send those to us. You can do that at therapyforblackgirls.com slash mailbox. And until next time, take good care.
