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[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcasts Episode 529 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.
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[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
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[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I welcome back to Therapy Chat, I'm your host, or a Reagan, and this week, I'm bringing you a conversation that combines semantics, movement, trauma, and hypermobility and other chronic health issues.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and much more.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I am so pleased to share with you my interview with Chelsea Haverley and Emily Young.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Go authors of the new book, Trauma and Formed Bodywork.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Chelsea and Emily are two therapists in my local area who are doing some really creative and innovative things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We've had a lot of conversations on therapy chat about ways that therapists are integrating different modalities together.
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[SPEAKER_03]: to benefit clients more deeply, more intensively, and this week, you're going to hear about how Chelsea and Emily combine trauma therapy with.
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[SPEAKER_03]: both touch-based bodywork, like massage, and craniosacrotherapy, and also personal training.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And you'll hear a mention of Laura Kudaris' work, the author of Lifting Heavy Things, and she was a guest.
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[SPEAKER_03]: on therapy chat for episode 374 so i'll be be sure to check out the link to that episode in the show notes if you missed it or you want to review it and i don't know about you but many of us are really feeling a lot of heaviness lately with everything that's going on in the world.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I hope you're taking good care of yourself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you need an escape, there's my retreat into loom.
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[SPEAKER_03]: In November, 2026, I would love to have you join us.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's for therapist only, and I'm also planning out retreats in Spain, Portugal, and some in the U.S.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I will hope to see you, whether you're therapists or not, at one of these events sometime soon.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And in the meantime, here's my interview with Chelsea Haverley and Emily Young.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for listening to Therapy Chat.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And today, I'm so happy to be with two guests who seems like I should have known for a long time because you all, I could practically walk to where you are but meeting you both for the first time, Emily Young, LCSWC, and Chelsea Haverley, LCSWC.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Emily and Chelsea, thank you so much for being my guest today on Therapy Chat.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: really happy to be here.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's so excited too.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And as we were saying before we were recording, especially you Chelsea, people keep telling me I should, I should know you, I should know you, so I recognize your name, but then I saw that you and Emily, whose name I also recognize from our local area, therapists community, have a book out called Trauma Informed Body Work.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, I know you don't really know me, but don't you want to come on therapy chat?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So really excited to talk about what you have created and what you're doing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But before we get into it, let's start off by if you would each of you telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go first, Charles.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm tells you, hey, really, I own a group therapy practice here in Annapolis.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We are an integrative trauma-specific therapy practice.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We have about 32 therapists that work for us total, and all of us are specifically trauma-trained in some kind of mentality to process trauma.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My career started in Baltimore City.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I've been working with the Trump population for almost 15 years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really passionate about patterns in our minds and our bodies, and getting curious about patterns, and also how we weave story and myths and different practices to release old stories.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also really passionate about working with other people.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If I never worked alone in the therapeutic space ever again, I would be very happy.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So, operating is my passion and joy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Emily Young.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I am a trauma informed personal trainer and therapist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I've been a fitness professional and therapist since about 2017.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I started in hospice work as a grief counselor and a program manager for the bereavement program and kind of transitioned into
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[SPEAKER_01]: working with Chelsea at Anchored Hope as a trauma therapist as well as a grief therapist.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of slowly over time started to weave together my two fields movement and therapy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then eventually links up with Chelsea to create our trauma and form personal training certification, which evolved and became a book.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So, currently, I do both, I own the embodied trainer, a personal training and consulting business, and I am also a somatic grief and trauma therapist, where I do use movements as an intervention in the therapy space.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's really cool.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so you have trauma-informed personal trainer, credential, Emily, you have that credential yourself.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it sounds like it's something that you and Chelsea created together.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Is that true?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would say we have to credit larcutary for being really the first pioneer in this field to really name trauma-informed personal training.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we always like to mention that we did not create that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: that name.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, we created the trauma-informed personal training certification, essentially out of our own experience where we both felt like we had so many therapy clients that could really benefit from movement.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But in our local area, there was just no one that we really trusted to care for their complex needs.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we have
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, trauma needs and mental health needs all requiring and deserving of an additional level of care.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we essentially came together and core kind of like, well, okay, we don't have this locally, but let's create this.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Let's create a network of trainers that we would feel safe and comfortable and confident with.
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[SPEAKER_01]: you know, referring our clients to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so Chelsea and I had worked together where I had seen a client of hers and helped with the training aspect and movement.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And we built, we really built the program from there based off of what worked.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it it became certified through the National Association of Sports Medicine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we our program is approved through them.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So any trainer who wants to get CE's through Nazam can can take our course through Nazam and we yeah credit laureates to just sending folks our way and supporting our work from the beginning.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She's been a huge supporter.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not me.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's Laura Kudari.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Laura Kudari.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: There's also been a guest on therapy chat.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll be sure to link to that conversation in the show notes so that, you know, anyone who's curious to learn more in depth about trauma and foreign personal certification from Laura's perspective can hear that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's so cool and it really peaked my interest when I heard that you were bringing personal training and trauma therapy work together.
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[SPEAKER_03]: When I first saw your book, I was thinking about body workers, massage, yoga instructors.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't you tell us a little bit, I guess
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to take it, um, go for it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have to credit North Atlantic books for being really flexible and understanding that we were, we're working in a niche in a niche.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So when we are talking about who is this book for in the beginning, we really were targeting it to movement professionals.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the term that Emily and I have used for years movement professional.
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[SPEAKER_02]: but we did market research, our nav and even our own people were like who is that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's a word we use and we were like does that make sense to the larger population?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we wrote the book we realized
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're not just talking to movement professionals.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking to anyone who's going to work with the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so we kind of used our network locally to be like, does this make sense to you too?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're a massage therapist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're an acupuncturist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You're a cranial state growth therapist.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Do these concepts make sense to you too?
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[SPEAKER_02]: Because maybe we're not talking about just movement.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We're just talking about anyone who works with the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And really, we're talking about the therapist, too.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Therapist work with the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So even if you're more traditionally trained in top-down mind over body, practice, we believe if you work with trauma, and you work with the body, you mean you're working with the same the same pieces.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we can't separate trauma from the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we started one way and we kind of amiendered to anyone that works at trauma works with the body, anyone who works with the body works at trauma, so it blended.
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[SPEAKER_02]: You know, side note, I've heard so many great things about North Atlantic books.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And kind of one who publishes it up them is like, they are so supportive, so they are.
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[SPEAKER_03]: They're your ally in the process.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It seems like someone who wants to write a book and it's just
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're amazed, too, that we did it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm paying attention.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And their values, along with our values, a lot of our business values match, North Atlantic books, values.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't advertise it, but in the book, there is a chapter on trauma-informed business practice, which is a passion of mine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you can run business without talking about values aligning with who you are, and so navel lines with our values,
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[SPEAKER_02]: really really important.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's beautiful.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to name that it's a really interesting thing in this time in history.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Social media has really how we're fully influenced.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I think the way that all of us are thinking about what we expect to happen during therapy sessions.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, or what healing is, you know, you see on social media now, a lot of literally performance of healing practices being done for an audience on social media.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And they're oftentimes very intense experiences that we see, you know,
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[SPEAKER_03]: physical, shaking, trembling, sounds that we don't typically make, you know, more primal sounds and expressions and different movement patterns that we don't typically do in our more, you know, especially in a Western culture of being more reserved.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And it seems like I often say when I'm doing supervision and consultation, we're not here to like show like how we can juggle and do tricks.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's what I always say because you know, the relationship is so important and there are so many aspects of trust and safety that are unspoken and oftentimes need to be explicitly spoken about.
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[SPEAKER_03]: and intentionally thought about.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But the way that I think we're selling wellness in this current time has really kind of distorted, I think, what goes on in it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's a long prologue to say that many people with best intentions to help.
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[SPEAKER_03]: but not the grounding in trauma and relational trust and safety.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Some really scary things can happen, scary from the client experience and the professional who's working with them.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it just feels to me that this is a very needed book.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I often think about like, you know, we all need to stay within our scope, but people don't necessarily always recognize what could go wrong and what what they might be doing that is actually out of their scope when they don't even realize it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So what do you, how do you approach relational safety and trust in this work?
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[SPEAKER_01]: We talk a lot about that in our training and when I do consultations, we go over this as well with people who are not therapists, but even so, like I always tell people, I am a therapist, I can never take that hat off, but when I'm in the training space.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's boundaries around that.
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[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not, this isn't therapy.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The movement comes first.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, in our trainings, we talk a lot about how to stay in your scope, particularly, that you're not here to be a mental health professional.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And you need to be really, really careful about things like asking follow up questions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not actually asking a lot of curiosity questions.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're not asking for a lot of
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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, complex answers that could retraumatize or like going back into the past, we're not asking questions like, you know, where could this be coming from, you know, we we tell all over movement professionals that go through the training that you showing up in a regulated body, able to hold space for emotions that come up is more than clients get in most spaces.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the over-functioning tends to happen when we discredit our like-based skills, a lot of trainers and fitness professionals think like they need to do the most to be credible, especially in this new field.
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[SPEAKER_01]: But you don't, if you show up grounded and work on your own nervous system.
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[SPEAKER_01]: can be a space where a client can cry if they need to.
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[SPEAKER_01]: It's huge.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's that's I think one of the biggest things is like, can you welcome the big expressions and know how to use movement to help resource the client, but can you also welcome the smaller expressions like a client showing up and saying, I really don't feel like moving today.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I almost canceled and the responses.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, let's why don't you just lay down for a bit.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Like close your eyes if you want, dim the lights, I'll go off camera.
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[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be here.
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[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you come back when you're ready?
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's no pressure to do anything.
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[SPEAKER_01]: There's no agenda.
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[SPEAKER_01]: We're just making space for the resistance.
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[SPEAKER_01]: And then opening some room to, you know, check in with where do you, where do you want to go now with a session?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to stay here?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to stretch?
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[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a little bit more energy and you want to move a little bit more?
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[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that safety really comes from the relationship and the trainer, but also creating an environment with a client can lead and get to know their body say no set boundaries and really give feedback around like what's working and what isn't.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think Laura, what popped in my mind while you were speaking is, you know, nervous system regulation is everywhere in social media like how do you regulate how do you regulate and we must be regulated for we're not doing it right or and you know, we regulation good dysregulation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, totally.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's this misconception that like we, we have to show up as this like, you know, crafted, professional, who's regulated and chill and then we're going to teach it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And what Emily and I, I mean, I hope it comes through the book we really talk about it a lot is just leaning into authenticity and dysregulation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We are living in some crazy times right now.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and I'm not going to pretend to be regulated.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to breathe and we're going to move and we're going to craft a session that makes sense, but I'm not going to pretend I'm not affected.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And for the sake of saying I'm regulated.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And I think Emma and I talk about this all the time.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Like being having boundaries of course, you know, we're not telling everyone all the things, but being real,
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[SPEAKER_02]: is that relationship building that you're talking about?
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[SPEAKER_02]: And we're allowed to to be messy, too, because it has to be perfect.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is in a way we think of regulated.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's like everybody talks about regulation now, you know, being regulated.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, when we say that like regulated rules and regulations, you know, you think about that like,
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[SPEAKER_03]: origin, conform, comply, yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of like, if you're calm, cool, and collected, you're regulated, if you're upset, you're dysregulated, and being upset is a problem.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It kind of reminds me, you know what I'm immediately came to mind is just like the whole idea of, you know, hysteria or the other one.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not really sure how to pronounce this drip to Mamia.
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[SPEAKER_03]: what, you know, where enslaved people were diagnosed with mental illness because they wanted to escape from enslavement.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Historia women being seen as hysterical because of the conditions living as a kind under the conditions of oppression.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If, you know, they old like if you're not upset, you're not paying attention, thing kind of comes to mind here, but and that doesn't mean
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[SPEAKER_03]: trauma-informed physical therapy means the trainer shows up crying or screaming about what's happening, but to be like, to be like, yeah, whoo, I'm feeling anxious too.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's, you know, what do we want to do with that?
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[SPEAKER_03]: It brings to mind as you're speaking.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's kind of ties into something that you said earlier about how you focus in your work to Chelsea.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I recently was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a couple months ago, but I've probably had it at least at least 11 years, maybe much longer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But around 10 or 11 years ago, I had like a emotional crisis that led to a physical crisis.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Which is pretty common in fibromyalgia game like 20 pounds in a month and then I get another 20 pounds the next month that I was like Oh my gosh my bodies just out of control.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I need to get more working out.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I was already working out like five days
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[SPEAKER_03]: a week.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you get more intense with working out, so which is what our culture says.
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[SPEAKER_03]: If you gain weight, you're just doing something wrong, right?
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[SPEAKER_03]: So I started going to this group personal training and I went to it for several years and it was really early in the morning.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I always felt so sluggish.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It was hard to even get out of bed and show up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I would get there
20:50.775 --> 20:58.838
[SPEAKER_03]: And the trainers attitude was like, you know, you're lazy, you're not really trying, you're not, you don't like want it bad enough.
20:59.258 --> 20:59.418
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
21:00.178 --> 21:06.840
[SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it was just like probably the only thing that kept me going was like this feeling of like, why not prove him wrong?
21:08.089 --> 21:20.719
[SPEAKER_03]: But also, I was really internalizing that message to of, I'm not trying hard enough, I'm not really strong, I'm not getting stronger, I'm not, you know, this isn't working, this isn't, I can't do it, you know?
21:20.900 --> 21:27.005
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can't even imagine how different it would have been to have had a trauma-informed trainer.
21:27.565 --> 21:33.450
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, especially someone who could have said, you know, even though I was a trauma therapist at the time, like, hey, you're nervous system.
21:33.570 --> 21:43.919
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't really have enough juice for this, you know, like you're in more of a, you're in dorsal here, you know, and maybe start on the floor and then, you know, shift.
21:44.099 --> 21:51.666
[SPEAKER_03]: Move into, yeah, go up regulate instead of, you know, when we think about regulation, it's often talking about down regulating.
21:51.966 --> 21:54.888
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you want to say a little bit about that since I brought that.
21:55.689 --> 21:56.429
[SPEAKER_01]: But you might if I go.
21:56.710 --> 21:57.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Just yeah.
21:57.610 --> 21:57.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Please.
21:58.230 --> 21:58.470
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:58.551 --> 22:01.592
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that experience is very, very common.
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[SPEAKER_01]: The majority of my clients have trauma from the fitness world.
22:06.595 --> 22:15.879
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, part of why Chelsea and I didn't feel safe transferring our clients to trainers in our local area because that's the traditional fitness culture.
22:16.160 --> 22:20.442
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we're doing and a lot of times the myth that we hear is like, oh, you're not.
22:21.022 --> 22:23.144
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just slower and you're not going to get a lot of it.
22:23.184 --> 22:25.945
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to like, you're not going to sweat or work hard.
22:26.486 --> 22:28.927
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of my clients are lifting heavier than they ever have.
22:29.047 --> 22:32.370
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of that is because we create a model of flexibility.
22:32.390 --> 22:39.795
[SPEAKER_01]: Not an expectation of being regulated all the time, not an expectation that you're going to show up the exact same every single time.
22:40.295 --> 22:42.937
[SPEAKER_01]: But the flexibility to say no to things.
22:43.277 --> 22:50.742
[SPEAKER_01]: to substitute movement, to not do anything other than go for a walk or do some longer stretching.
22:51.502 --> 22:53.884
[SPEAKER_01]: And in turn, that creates the consistency.
22:54.224 --> 22:59.267
[SPEAKER_01]: When our bodies know that they can say no, it opens up a lot more yes.
23:00.288 --> 23:05.391
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we're constantly told that you're no and sometimes our bodies
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[SPEAKER_01]: the late to the session or canceling and ghosting or even like a lot of physical symptoms like feeling that you're going to pass out or feeling nauseous.
23:20.899 --> 23:24.082
[SPEAKER_01]: And if every single time those things come up and the train or those, yep.
23:25.108 --> 23:49.177
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially with chronic illness and chronic pain like we have to have a flexible approach because you never know what you're going to get on any given day so we're just facilitating patterns of shame if we don't address that and create space for it and if every time the body saying no the trainers like suck it up do it anyways you don't you must not want enough like that is coming from such a harmful place.
23:49.994 --> 24:00.800
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in this model, we really welcome all that comes up and I was told my clients like if a trainer has ever told you well there's nothing else we can do like.
24:02.144 --> 24:07.286
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lack going on there because there are a million ways to move your body.
24:07.846 --> 24:14.969
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're telling me that like you just do not want to do squats today, your knees are cranky, I'm like, okay, yeah, no problem.
24:14.989 --> 24:19.491
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a list of a million other movements that we could do instead that would help your knees.
24:20.591 --> 24:23.972
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of creating this mindset that like when we're in
24:29.274 --> 24:30.655
[SPEAKER_01]: in that sympathetic energy.
24:30.675 --> 24:32.576
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
24:32.836 --> 24:34.197
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to just stop.
24:34.738 --> 24:43.203
[SPEAKER_01]: We can really cater our movement to be what we need versus what we feel like we should do or what we're told that we need to do.
24:43.805 --> 24:48.450
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and to add into that, you know, the body be inquited over time.
24:48.590 --> 24:54.257
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my own immune system was like, heaven is stop listening to your bypass.
24:54.477 --> 24:58.641
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm just going to yell at you and I still yell at me.
24:58.902 --> 25:03.547
[SPEAKER_02]: I still bypass it and I'm committed to listening and I still bypass it.
25:03.687 --> 25:07.889
[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of times, I'm like, I are working on ways to find people's notes.
25:07.989 --> 25:12.271
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do we find the edge of, I don't want to do that?
25:12.391 --> 25:14.872
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel good after I do it.
25:15.352 --> 25:23.896
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I, this movement felt good last week, not this week, like, really that flexibility is so important.
25:24.897 --> 25:27.059
[SPEAKER_02]: And our nose can change.
25:27.539 --> 25:30.642
[SPEAKER_02]: Our, yes, I want this movement can change.
25:31.042 --> 25:39.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember one of my, one of my own body workers was like Chelsea, we're gonna practice moving at the pace of your body, not your mind.
25:39.550 --> 25:40.931
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm still working on that.
25:41.071 --> 25:42.192
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really hard.
25:42.913 --> 25:47.097
[SPEAKER_01]: And so much, it comes from this internal anti-fat bias.
25:47.457 --> 26:01.771
[SPEAKER_01]: that collectively as a society we all hold and there's like we are conditioned to think like there are specific ways that we have to move our body in order to not gain weight and those ways of moving our body are intense.
26:02.432 --> 26:10.560
[SPEAKER_01]: not sustainable, really not enjoyable to the point where the majority of people, like it's just natural, like it's not sustainable to stick with it.
26:10.581 --> 26:12.543
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, that's that's shame spiral.
26:13.003 --> 26:19.290
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're in the business of consistency, and if we step outside that box of only moving for aesthetics,
26:19.930 --> 26:41.613
[SPEAKER_01]: it opens up so much like what if we moved because it just felt good or what if we moved because like it helped just feel calmer what if we moved to get into our body or to like release a motion there's just so many other ways to engage with movement rather than the most intense switch burns out or already burns out burned out nervous systems even more.
26:42.811 --> 26:45.152
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, I'm just thinking about that.
26:45.172 --> 26:47.713
[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, that's what was happening for me.
26:47.813 --> 26:58.817
[SPEAKER_03]: I was I was really having like an adrenal fatigue, systemic response, and trying to find more, you know, capacity from a very depleted system.
26:58.937 --> 27:05.879
[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't, and beating myself up or allowing him to beat me up emotionally didn't help either.
27:06.080 --> 27:08.080
[SPEAKER_03]: I stayed with it for a very long time, too.
27:08.200 --> 27:09.461
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like, years and years.
27:10.301 --> 27:23.309
[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so obviously, I'm still coming to terms with my chronic illness autoimmune situation because it's pretty new, you know, in spite of the symptoms aren't new, but the diagnosis is new.
27:23.969 --> 27:30.833
[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, you know, like like everyone, I work with people who have chronic illness, but actually having one is like, oh,
27:31.053 --> 27:32.434
[SPEAKER_02]: And the weird thing is that I've had it.
27:32.654 --> 27:33.934
[SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't know I had it.
27:34.054 --> 27:39.637
[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just, it's that adjustment to not overriding like you were saying Chelsea.
27:39.817 --> 27:45.560
[SPEAKER_03]: And you mentioned that you work with people, Chelsea, who have chronic illness as well.
27:45.620 --> 27:52.543
[SPEAKER_03]: And Curious, how do you bring trauma-informed personal training and or body work into therapy?
27:52.703 --> 27:52.923
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: With people with chronic illness.
27:54.904 --> 27:58.827
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, part of it is my own lived experience.
27:59.147 --> 28:05.792
[SPEAKER_02]: I also have an autoimmune sometimes manage sometimes not managed pattern in my own nervous system.
28:06.773 --> 28:16.721
[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started doing cranial sacral therapy to help my nervous system regulate because I felt very disconnected from my body.
28:16.741 --> 28:18.823
[SPEAKER_02]: I have hypermobile EDS.
28:19.583 --> 28:25.006
[SPEAKER_03]: And so I have hypermodality too, so I'm checking to see if it's EDS.
28:25.526 --> 28:30.449
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's in my family, so we went down the whole path of confirmation.
28:30.489 --> 28:33.651
[SPEAKER_02]: It's quite a journey, like 10 years of navigating.
28:34.472 --> 28:35.952
[SPEAKER_03]: But to answer, we're hitting you up.
28:35.992 --> 28:37.433
[SPEAKER_03]: We're having lunch soon.
28:37.793 --> 28:39.414
[SPEAKER_02]: We should definitely do this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I've talked to so many trainers who are like, oh my gosh, the HEDS, the overlaps with autoimmune HEDS, trauma symptoms, nervous system dysregulation.
28:50.881 --> 28:54.963
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the intersections are just wild, and we could we could rabbit hold this.
28:55.824 --> 29:06.530
[SPEAKER_02]: But to focus on your question, my own path has been, I could not be where I am today without bodywork and without fantastic bodywork.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I also have a great somatic therapist, and so I was like, well, if I love my somatic therapist and my body worth, what if I just helped people in an integrative way, because like these are the things that should be done together.
29:31.437 --> 29:55.643
[SPEAKER_02]: And when I say stuck, I mean like really that adrenal fatigue that I'm not well, I can barely, like parts of them are high functioning, I have, you know, I use IFS parts work, parts of them are very high functioning and parts of them are really in collapse place, you know, they get through Monday through Friday and then the whole weekend is recovery and it's a cycle.
29:56.403 --> 29:57.143
[SPEAKER_02]: and I've been there.
29:57.683 --> 30:10.067
[SPEAKER_02]: I understand that entirely and so it feels like right the only way forward is to work on the patterns and support the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for me it's my opinion and so I can have a client who is you know aware of the patterns in their own parts work aware of what part is pushing
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if we can work with that part, like it becomes blended with self, which is a lot of, you know, that part's work.
30:32.578 --> 30:43.570
[SPEAKER_02]: While they're in a cranial sacral therapy session, while the body is being supported, I've developed a scent like I work with people who I, you know, have a relationship with.
30:43.670 --> 30:45.652
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can be like, what do you notice saying?
30:45.832 --> 30:46.914
[SPEAKER_02]: What am I noticing?
30:47.414 --> 30:49.295
[SPEAKER_02]: What's coming up in the body right now?
30:49.555 --> 30:52.295
[SPEAKER_02]: I trained with a fantastic practitioner.
30:52.315 --> 30:53.916
[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Elaine Duncan.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She's in Silver Spring, Maryland.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She does the doubt trauma training, which is integrating five element theory with yes, this book.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just planning on getting in touch with her too.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I've been working with Elaine for almost two years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the second year working
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[SPEAKER_02]: This five element theory of regulating the body through the organ system and the muscle system and the fluid system and working with the cranial sacral system as well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really passionate about the body and what it has to say as we try to work in the patterns of stuckness with cart's work.
31:36.705 --> 31:51.953
[SPEAKER_02]: And so in my experience, when we can work with the body and the part, together, we can do like six months of therapy in a lot of work in a very short amount of time because the body is supported when we're working through stuckness.
31:52.513 --> 31:54.134
[SPEAKER_03]: It's been really, it's life-changing.
31:54.234 --> 31:54.974
[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.
31:55.174 --> 31:59.877
[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, this is so exciting and we don't have time to keep going.
31:59.957 --> 32:03.338
[SPEAKER_03]: But I wish I could pick your brains a lot longer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So for now, I'll say this is super cool.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You offer training to personal trainers, body workers.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you say who's it for?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you deliver it and where can people find it?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm sure that some people who are
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we used to be live and we went fully virtual.
32:27.630 --> 32:45.901
[SPEAKER_02]: So at hopeignitedtraining.com, Emily and I have a course that is both a foundations if you're just curious and don't want to commit to a full search and then we have a full search for trainers who want to become trauma informed personal trainers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: on our website for download and it has CEUs through the National Association of Sports Medicine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If any therapist are listening or any other body worker who's like what is Chelsea talking about with this in the same room as another person and doing this,
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[SPEAKER_02]: The cranial sacral therapist that I work with and collaborate with, we have a course online for download calling body parts integration.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We have a recorded session in that training that shows what we mean when we say doing joint work together.
33:19.899 --> 33:27.084
[SPEAKER_02]: So any trauma therapist and body worker who wants a framework for how to do this work together, we have a course for download as well
33:30.666 --> 33:31.487
[SPEAKER_03]: Fabulous.
33:31.827 --> 33:33.688
[SPEAKER_03]: That's so cool.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so grateful that you shared that and then your book is that on hopingnightetraining.com or where do we find that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
33:43.193 --> 33:45.775
[SPEAKER_02]: It also has its own website because why not?
33:46.455 --> 33:48.796
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, you can never have too many websites.
33:49.156 --> 33:50.057
[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm laying
33:59.120 --> 33:59.821
[SPEAKER_03]: amazing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited for you and we are really lucky here in this local area to have such brilliant minds doing such amazing things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you so much for your beautiful important work and for coming on therapy chat today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having us.
34:19.238 --> 34:19.898
[SPEAKER_02]: It was lovely.
34:23.023 --> 34:28.889
[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.
34:30.010 --> 34:34.675
[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPodcast.com.
00:00.131 --> 00:10.056
[SPEAKER_00]: Therapy Chat Podcasts Episode 529 This is the Therapy Chat Podcast with Laura Regan, LCSWC.
00:11.177 --> 00:17.020
[SPEAKER_00]: The information shared in this podcast is not a substitute for seeking help from a licensed mental health professional.
00:18.320 --> 00:22.862
[SPEAKER_00]: And now, here's your host, Laura Regan, LCSWC.
00:40.317 --> 00:59.458
[SPEAKER_03]: I welcome back to Therapy Chat, I'm your host, or a Reagan, and this week, I'm bringing you a conversation that combines semantics, movement, trauma, and hypermobility and other chronic health issues.
01:00.277 --> 01:00.878
[SPEAKER_03]: and much more.
01:01.739 --> 01:08.249
[SPEAKER_03]: I am so pleased to share with you my interview with Chelsea Haverley and Emily Young.
01:08.850 --> 01:11.754
[SPEAKER_03]: Go authors of the new book, Trauma and Formed Bodywork.
01:12.451 --> 01:21.181
[SPEAKER_03]: Chelsea and Emily are two therapists in my local area who are doing some really creative and innovative things.
01:21.701 --> 01:30.551
[SPEAKER_03]: We've had a lot of conversations on therapy chat about ways that therapists are integrating different modalities together.
01:31.051 --> 01:45.553
[SPEAKER_03]: to benefit clients more deeply, more intensively, and this week, you're going to hear about how Chelsea and Emily combine trauma therapy with.
01:46.053 --> 01:54.918
[SPEAKER_03]: both touch-based bodywork, like massage, and craniosacrotherapy, and also personal training.
01:55.399 --> 02:05.725
[SPEAKER_03]: And you'll hear a mention of Laura Kudaris' work, the author of Lifting Heavy Things, and she was a guest.
02:06.125 --> 02:28.605
[SPEAKER_03]: on therapy chat for episode 374 so i'll be be sure to check out the link to that episode in the show notes if you missed it or you want to review it and i don't know about you but many of us are really feeling a lot of heaviness lately with everything that's going on in the world.
02:29.426 --> 02:31.447
[SPEAKER_03]: So I hope you're taking good care of yourself.
02:32.068 --> 02:36.330
[SPEAKER_03]: If you need an escape, there's my retreat into loom.
02:36.790 --> 02:40.072
[SPEAKER_03]: In November, 2026, I would love to have you join us.
02:40.933 --> 02:50.598
[SPEAKER_03]: It's for therapist only, and I'm also planning out retreats in Spain, Portugal, and some in the U.S.
02:51.668 --> 02:59.151
[SPEAKER_03]: So I will hope to see you, whether you're therapists or not, at one of these events sometime soon.
02:59.991 --> 03:05.794
[SPEAKER_03]: And in the meantime, here's my interview with Chelsea Haverley and Emily Young.
03:06.254 --> 03:08.235
[SPEAKER_03]: Thank you so much for listening to Therapy Chat.
03:11.585 --> 03:13.306
[SPEAKER_02]: Hi, welcome back to Therapy Chat.
03:13.506 --> 03:14.827
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm your host, Laura Reagan.
03:15.227 --> 03:32.495
[SPEAKER_03]: And today, I'm so happy to be with two guests who seems like I should have known for a long time because you all, I could practically walk to where you are but meeting you both for the first time, Emily Young, LCSWC, and Chelsea Haverley, LCSWC.
03:32.815 --> 03:36.137
[SPEAKER_03]: Emily and Chelsea, thank you so much for being my guest today on Therapy Chat.
03:36.437 --> 03:37.498
[SPEAKER_01]: Thank you so much for having us.
03:38.411 --> 03:39.472
[SPEAKER_02]: really happy to be here.
03:39.792 --> 03:41.333
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's so excited too.
03:41.633 --> 04:02.349
[SPEAKER_03]: And as we were saying before we were recording, especially you Chelsea, people keep telling me I should, I should know you, I should know you, so I recognize your name, but then I saw that you and Emily, whose name I also recognize from our local area, therapists community, have a book out called Trauma Informed Body Work.
04:02.409 --> 04:02.709
[SPEAKER_03]: And so
04:05.851 --> 04:09.432
[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, I know you don't really know me, but don't you want to come on therapy chat?
04:09.552 --> 04:16.214
[SPEAKER_03]: So really excited to talk about what you have created and what you're doing.
04:16.754 --> 04:24.656
[SPEAKER_03]: But before we get into it, let's start off by if you would each of you telling our audience a little bit more about who you are and what you do.
04:24.676 --> 04:25.756
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to go first, Charles.
04:26.096 --> 04:26.336
[SPEAKER_03]: Sure.
04:27.076 --> 04:31.878
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm tells you, hey, really, I own a group therapy practice here in Annapolis.
04:32.738 --> 04:36.259
[SPEAKER_02]: We are an integrative trauma-specific therapy practice.
04:36.879 --> 04:47.242
[SPEAKER_02]: We have about 32 therapists that work for us total, and all of us are specifically trauma-trained in some kind of mentality to process trauma.
04:47.462 --> 04:49.343
[SPEAKER_02]: My career started in Baltimore City.
04:49.563 --> 04:54.686
[SPEAKER_02]: I've been working with the Trump population for almost 15 years.
04:55.686 --> 05:14.076
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm really passionate about patterns in our minds and our bodies, and getting curious about patterns, and also how we weave story and myths and different practices to release old stories.
05:14.816 --> 05:17.818
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm also really passionate about working with other people.
05:18.018 --> 05:24.062
[SPEAKER_02]: If I never worked alone in the therapeutic space ever again, I would be very happy.
05:24.683 --> 05:27.685
[SPEAKER_02]: So, operating is my passion and joy.
05:28.356 --> 05:29.296
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm Emily Young.
05:29.597 --> 05:32.998
[SPEAKER_01]: I am a trauma informed personal trainer and therapist.
05:33.278 --> 05:38.740
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been a fitness professional and therapist since about 2017.
05:39.360 --> 05:49.404
[SPEAKER_01]: I started in hospice work as a grief counselor and a program manager for the bereavement program and kind of transitioned into
05:50.344 --> 05:55.068
[SPEAKER_01]: working with Chelsea at Anchored Hope as a trauma therapist as well as a grief therapist.
05:55.609 --> 06:03.656
[SPEAKER_01]: And kind of slowly over time started to weave together my two fields movement and therapy.
06:04.197 --> 06:12.464
[SPEAKER_01]: And then eventually links up with Chelsea to create our trauma and form personal training certification, which evolved and became a book.
06:13.906 --> 06:29.298
[SPEAKER_01]: So, currently, I do both, I own the embodied trainer, a personal training and consulting business, and I am also a somatic grief and trauma therapist, where I do use movements as an intervention in the therapy space.
06:29.838 --> 06:30.779
[SPEAKER_03]: It's really cool.
06:30.879 --> 06:38.083
[SPEAKER_03]: And so you have trauma-informed personal trainer, credential, Emily, you have that credential yourself.
06:38.204 --> 06:42.126
[SPEAKER_03]: And it sounds like it's something that you and Chelsea created together.
06:42.486 --> 06:42.967
[SPEAKER_03]: Is that true?
06:43.307 --> 06:54.214
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I would say we have to credit larcutary for being really the first pioneer in this field to really name trauma-informed personal training.
06:54.334 --> 06:57.096
[SPEAKER_01]: So we always like to mention that we did not create that.
06:57.896 --> 06:58.377
[SPEAKER_01]: that name.
06:58.957 --> 07:12.047
[SPEAKER_01]: But yes, we created the trauma-informed personal training certification, essentially out of our own experience where we both felt like we had so many therapy clients that could really benefit from movement.
07:12.607 --> 07:19.232
[SPEAKER_01]: But in our local area, there was just no one that we really trusted to care for their complex needs.
07:19.892 --> 07:20.312
[SPEAKER_01]: And we have
07:21.213 --> 07:27.416
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, trauma needs and mental health needs all requiring and deserving of an additional level of care.
07:28.096 --> 07:35.039
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we essentially came together and core kind of like, well, okay, we don't have this locally, but let's create this.
07:36.160 --> 07:40.662
[SPEAKER_01]: Let's create a network of trainers that we would feel safe and comfortable and confident with.
07:41.283 --> 07:42.904
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, referring our clients to.
07:42.924 --> 07:52.673
[SPEAKER_01]: And so Chelsea and I had worked together where I had seen a client of hers and helped with the training aspect and movement.
07:53.274 --> 07:56.917
[SPEAKER_01]: And we built, we really built the program from there based off of what worked.
07:57.117 --> 08:02.122
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it it became certified through the National Association of Sports Medicine.
08:02.662 --> 08:05.164
[SPEAKER_02]: So we our program is approved through them.
08:05.365 --> 08:19.638
[SPEAKER_02]: So any trainer who wants to get CE's through Nazam can can take our course through Nazam and we yeah credit laureates to just sending folks our way and supporting our work from the beginning.
08:20.278 --> 08:22.100
[SPEAKER_02]: She's been a huge supporter.
08:22.240 --> 08:22.901
[SPEAKER_03]: Beautiful.
08:22.941 --> 08:23.762
[SPEAKER_03]: And that's not me.
08:23.802 --> 08:24.903
[SPEAKER_03]: That's Laura Kudari.
08:24.923 --> 08:25.624
[SPEAKER_02]: Laura Kudari.
08:25.644 --> 08:25.884
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
08:26.365 --> 08:28.687
[SPEAKER_03]: There's also been a guest on therapy chat.
08:28.727 --> 08:42.301
[SPEAKER_03]: So I'll be sure to link to that conversation in the show notes so that, you know, anyone who's curious to learn more in depth about trauma and foreign personal certification from Laura's perspective can hear that.
08:42.401 --> 08:42.621
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
08:43.702 --> 08:54.210
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, that's so cool and it really peaked my interest when I heard that you were bringing personal training and trauma therapy work together.
08:54.710 --> 09:01.735
[SPEAKER_03]: When I first saw your book, I was thinking about body workers, massage, yoga instructors.
09:02.155 --> 09:05.478
[SPEAKER_03]: So why don't you tell us a little bit, I guess
09:11.462 --> 09:13.163
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to take it, um, go for it.
09:13.203 --> 09:13.363
[SPEAKER_02]: Yep.
09:14.883 --> 09:25.868
[SPEAKER_02]: I have to credit North Atlantic books for being really flexible and understanding that we were, we're working in a niche in a niche.
09:26.688 --> 09:34.311
[SPEAKER_02]: So when we are talking about who is this book for in the beginning, we really were targeting it to movement professionals.
09:34.491 --> 09:39.233
[SPEAKER_02]: And that's the term that Emily and I have used for years movement professional.
09:39.893 --> 09:46.759
[SPEAKER_02]: but we did market research, our nav and even our own people were like who is that?
09:47.920 --> 09:53.924
[SPEAKER_02]: Like that's a word we use and we were like does that make sense to the larger population?
09:53.944 --> 09:57.627
[SPEAKER_02]: And so when we wrote the book we realized
09:58.448 --> 10:00.669
[SPEAKER_02]: We're not just talking to movement professionals.
10:00.709 --> 10:03.190
[SPEAKER_02]: We're talking to anyone who's going to work with the body.
10:03.810 --> 10:10.832
[SPEAKER_02]: And so we kind of used our network locally to be like, does this make sense to you too?
10:10.932 --> 10:12.253
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, you're a massage therapist.
10:12.273 --> 10:13.453
[SPEAKER_02]: You're an acupuncturist.
10:13.473 --> 10:15.134
[SPEAKER_02]: You're a cranial state growth therapist.
10:15.734 --> 10:17.935
[SPEAKER_02]: Do these concepts make sense to you too?
10:17.995 --> 10:20.456
[SPEAKER_02]: Because maybe we're not talking about just movement.
10:20.476 --> 10:22.757
[SPEAKER_02]: We're just talking about anyone who works with the body.
10:23.837 --> 10:26.279
[SPEAKER_02]: And really, we're talking about the therapist, too.
10:26.440 --> 10:27.821
[SPEAKER_02]: Therapist work with the body.
10:28.581 --> 10:43.455
[SPEAKER_02]: So even if you're more traditionally trained in top-down mind over body, practice, we believe if you work with trauma, and you work with the body, you mean you're working with the same the same pieces.
10:43.555 --> 10:46.037
[SPEAKER_02]: So we can't separate trauma from the body.
10:46.918 --> 10:59.222
[SPEAKER_02]: So we started one way and we kind of amiendered to anyone that works at trauma works with the body, anyone who works with the body works at trauma, so it blended.
10:59.242 --> 11:02.623
[SPEAKER_02]: You know, side note, I've heard so many great things about North Atlantic books.
11:02.844 --> 11:08.065
[SPEAKER_03]: And kind of one who publishes it up them is like, they are so supportive, so they are.
11:08.205 --> 11:09.726
[SPEAKER_03]: They're your ally in the process.
11:09.786 --> 11:12.707
[SPEAKER_03]: It seems like someone who wants to write a book and it's just
11:15.908 --> 11:17.568
[SPEAKER_03]: We're amazed, too, that we did it.
11:17.608 --> 11:18.429
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm paying attention.
11:19.789 --> 11:20.009
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:20.889 --> 11:21.129
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
11:21.269 --> 11:26.390
[SPEAKER_02]: And their values, along with our values, a lot of our business values match, North Atlantic books, values.
11:26.711 --> 11:36.113
[SPEAKER_02]: And we didn't advertise it, but in the book, there is a chapter on trauma-informed business practice, which is a passion of mine.
11:36.753 --> 11:44.315
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't think you can run business without talking about values aligning with who you are, and so navel lines with our values,
11:46.776 --> 11:48.977
[SPEAKER_02]: really really important.
11:49.057 --> 11:49.938
[SPEAKER_03]: That's beautiful.
11:51.078 --> 11:56.862
[SPEAKER_03]: So I want to name that it's a really interesting thing in this time in history.
11:57.343 --> 12:01.806
[SPEAKER_03]: Social media has really how we're fully influenced.
12:02.126 --> 12:07.550
[SPEAKER_03]: I think the way that all of us are thinking about what we expect to happen during therapy sessions.
12:08.310 --> 12:22.904
[SPEAKER_03]: It's like, or what healing is, you know, you see on social media now, a lot of literally performance of healing practices being done for an audience on social media.
12:23.305 --> 12:30.371
[SPEAKER_03]: And they're oftentimes very intense experiences that we see, you know,
12:31.792 --> 12:52.742
[SPEAKER_03]: physical, shaking, trembling, sounds that we don't typically make, you know, more primal sounds and expressions and different movement patterns that we don't typically do in our more, you know, especially in a Western culture of being more reserved.
12:52.922 --> 13:03.706
[SPEAKER_03]: And it seems like I often say when I'm doing supervision and consultation, we're not here to like show like how we can juggle and do tricks.
13:03.847 --> 13:18.953
[SPEAKER_03]: Like that's what I always say because you know, the relationship is so important and there are so many aspects of trust and safety that are unspoken and oftentimes need to be explicitly spoken about.
13:19.913 --> 13:21.756
[SPEAKER_03]: and intentionally thought about.
13:21.996 --> 13:32.669
[SPEAKER_03]: But the way that I think we're selling wellness in this current time has really kind of distorted, I think, what goes on in it.
13:32.829 --> 13:38.856
[SPEAKER_03]: And so that's a long prologue to say that many people with best intentions to help.
13:39.477 --> 13:45.861
[SPEAKER_03]: but not the grounding in trauma and relational trust and safety.
13:46.201 --> 13:55.566
[SPEAKER_03]: Some really scary things can happen, scary from the client experience and the professional who's working with them.
13:55.806 --> 13:59.348
[SPEAKER_03]: So it just feels to me that this is a very needed book.
13:59.608 --> 14:12.154
[SPEAKER_03]: I often think about like, you know, we all need to stay within our scope, but people don't necessarily always recognize what could go wrong and what what they might be doing that is actually out of their scope when they don't even realize it.
14:12.274 --> 14:17.957
[SPEAKER_03]: So what do you, how do you approach relational safety and trust in this work?
14:18.117 --> 14:34.030
[SPEAKER_01]: We talk a lot about that in our training and when I do consultations, we go over this as well with people who are not therapists, but even so, like I always tell people, I am a therapist, I can never take that hat off, but when I'm in the training space.
14:34.570 --> 14:35.691
[SPEAKER_01]: There's boundaries around that.
14:35.711 --> 14:37.692
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're not, this isn't therapy.
14:37.792 --> 14:38.993
[SPEAKER_01]: The movement comes first.
14:39.213 --> 14:47.779
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we, in our trainings, we talk a lot about how to stay in your scope, particularly, that you're not here to be a mental health professional.
14:47.879 --> 14:53.242
[SPEAKER_01]: And you need to be really, really careful about things like asking follow up questions.
14:53.282 --> 14:57.205
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not actually asking a lot of curiosity questions.
14:57.225 --> 14:58.706
[SPEAKER_01]: We're not asking for a lot of
14:59.346 --> 15:23.602
[SPEAKER_01]: You know, complex answers that could retraumatize or like going back into the past, we're not asking questions like, you know, where could this be coming from, you know, we we tell all over movement professionals that go through the training that you showing up in a regulated body, able to hold space for emotions that come up is more than clients get in most spaces.
15:24.303 --> 15:37.217
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think the over-functioning tends to happen when we discredit our like-based skills, a lot of trainers and fitness professionals think like they need to do the most to be credible, especially in this new field.
15:37.818 --> 15:41.742
[SPEAKER_01]: But you don't, if you show up grounded and work on your own nervous system.
15:42.433 --> 15:46.196
[SPEAKER_01]: can be a space where a client can cry if they need to.
15:46.996 --> 15:47.917
[SPEAKER_01]: It's huge.
15:48.577 --> 16:06.129
[SPEAKER_01]: And so that's that's I think one of the biggest things is like, can you welcome the big expressions and know how to use movement to help resource the client, but can you also welcome the smaller expressions like a client showing up and saying, I really don't feel like moving today.
16:06.609 --> 16:08.951
[SPEAKER_01]: I almost canceled and the responses.
16:09.431 --> 16:11.795
[SPEAKER_02]: Hey, let's why don't you just lay down for a bit.
16:12.196 --> 16:16.023
[SPEAKER_01]: Like close your eyes if you want, dim the lights, I'll go off camera.
16:16.063 --> 16:16.624
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll be here.
16:16.644 --> 16:17.966
[SPEAKER_01]: Why do you come back when you're ready?
16:18.427 --> 16:20.170
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no pressure to do anything.
16:20.190 --> 16:21.011
[SPEAKER_01]: There's no agenda.
16:21.031 --> 16:22.915
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just making space for the resistance.
16:23.687 --> 16:29.711
[SPEAKER_01]: And then opening some room to, you know, check in with where do you, where do you want to go now with a session?
16:29.731 --> 16:30.531
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to stay here?
16:30.551 --> 16:31.392
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you want to stretch?
16:31.712 --> 16:34.334
[SPEAKER_01]: Do you have a little bit more energy and you want to move a little bit more?
16:34.994 --> 16:51.165
[SPEAKER_01]: So I think that safety really comes from the relationship and the trainer, but also creating an environment with a client can lead and get to know their body say no set boundaries and really give feedback around like what's working and what isn't.
16:51.585 --> 17:10.156
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and I think Laura, what popped in my mind while you were speaking is, you know, nervous system regulation is everywhere in social media like how do you regulate how do you regulate and we must be regulated for we're not doing it right or and you know, we regulation good dysregulation.
17:10.176 --> 17:11.497
[SPEAKER_02]: Yes, totally.
17:12.437 --> 17:25.385
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think there's this misconception that like we, we have to show up as this like, you know, crafted, professional, who's regulated and chill and then we're going to teach it.
17:26.005 --> 17:35.511
[SPEAKER_02]: And what Emily and I, I mean, I hope it comes through the book we really talk about it a lot is just leaning into authenticity and dysregulation.
17:35.551 --> 17:38.693
[SPEAKER_02]: We are living in some crazy times right now.
17:39.513 --> 17:41.834
[SPEAKER_02]: and I'm not going to pretend to be regulated.
17:41.994 --> 17:51.438
[SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to breathe and we're going to move and we're going to craft a session that makes sense, but I'm not going to pretend I'm not affected.
17:51.458 --> 17:54.419
[SPEAKER_02]: And for the sake of saying I'm regulated.
17:54.579 --> 17:56.740
[SPEAKER_02]: And I think Emma and I talk about this all the time.
17:56.820 --> 18:04.323
[SPEAKER_02]: Like being having boundaries of course, you know, we're not telling everyone all the things, but being real,
18:05.263 --> 18:08.304
[SPEAKER_02]: is that relationship building that you're talking about?
18:08.865 --> 18:13.307
[SPEAKER_02]: And we're allowed to to be messy, too, because it has to be perfect.
18:13.747 --> 18:14.907
[SPEAKER_03]: I appreciate that.
18:15.108 --> 18:19.890
[SPEAKER_03]: And I think that is in a way we think of regulated.
18:20.170 --> 18:25.232
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, it's like everybody talks about regulation now, you know, being regulated.
18:25.712 --> 18:31.275
[SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, when we say that like regulated rules and regulations, you know, you think about that like,
18:31.795 --> 18:34.937
[SPEAKER_03]: origin, conform, comply, yeah.
18:35.097 --> 18:44.123
[SPEAKER_03]: It's sort of like, if you're calm, cool, and collected, you're regulated, if you're upset, you're dysregulated, and being upset is a problem.
18:44.303 --> 18:53.529
[SPEAKER_03]: It kind of reminds me, you know what I'm immediately came to mind is just like the whole idea of, you know, hysteria or the other one.
18:53.549 --> 18:56.632
[SPEAKER_03]: I'm not really sure how to pronounce this drip to Mamia.
18:57.512 --> 19:05.217
[SPEAKER_03]: what, you know, where enslaved people were diagnosed with mental illness because they wanted to escape from enslavement.
19:05.357 --> 19:14.903
[SPEAKER_03]: Historia women being seen as hysterical because of the conditions living as a kind under the conditions of oppression.
19:15.223 --> 19:21.767
[SPEAKER_03]: If, you know, they old like if you're not upset, you're not paying attention, thing kind of comes to mind here, but and that doesn't mean
19:23.068 --> 19:35.364
[SPEAKER_03]: trauma-informed physical therapy means the trainer shows up crying or screaming about what's happening, but to be like, to be like, yeah, whoo, I'm feeling anxious too.
19:35.404 --> 19:37.928
[SPEAKER_03]: Like, let's, you know, what do we want to do with that?
19:38.068 --> 19:40.331
[SPEAKER_03]: It brings to mind as you're speaking.
19:41.192 --> 19:47.953
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess it's kind of ties into something that you said earlier about how you focus in your work to Chelsea.
19:48.174 --> 19:57.956
[SPEAKER_03]: I recently was diagnosed with fibromyalgia a couple months ago, but I've probably had it at least at least 11 years, maybe much longer.
19:58.116 --> 20:05.517
[SPEAKER_03]: But around 10 or 11 years ago, I had like a emotional crisis that led to a physical crisis.
20:09.098 --> 20:18.727
[SPEAKER_03]: Which is pretty common in fibromyalgia game like 20 pounds in a month and then I get another 20 pounds the next month that I was like Oh my gosh my bodies just out of control.
20:18.747 --> 20:22.030
[SPEAKER_03]: I need to get more working out.
20:22.090 --> 20:23.992
[SPEAKER_03]: I was already working out like five days
20:24.112 --> 20:24.392
[SPEAKER_03]: a week.
20:24.432 --> 20:29.437
[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, you get more intense with working out, so which is what our culture says.
20:29.517 --> 20:32.880
[SPEAKER_03]: If you gain weight, you're just doing something wrong, right?
20:33.060 --> 20:40.907
[SPEAKER_03]: So I started going to this group personal training and I went to it for several years and it was really early in the morning.
20:41.147 --> 20:43.789
[SPEAKER_03]: I always felt so sluggish.
20:44.109 --> 20:46.412
[SPEAKER_03]: It was hard to even get out of bed and show up.
20:46.732 --> 20:47.452
[SPEAKER_03]: I would get there
20:50.775 --> 20:58.838
[SPEAKER_03]: And the trainers attitude was like, you know, you're lazy, you're not really trying, you're not, you don't like want it bad enough.
20:59.258 --> 20:59.418
[SPEAKER_03]: Yep.
21:00.178 --> 21:06.840
[SPEAKER_03]: And for me, it was just like probably the only thing that kept me going was like this feeling of like, why not prove him wrong?
21:08.089 --> 21:20.719
[SPEAKER_03]: But also, I was really internalizing that message to of, I'm not trying hard enough, I'm not really strong, I'm not getting stronger, I'm not, you know, this isn't working, this isn't, I can't do it, you know?
21:20.900 --> 21:27.005
[SPEAKER_03]: And I can't even imagine how different it would have been to have had a trauma-informed trainer.
21:27.565 --> 21:33.450
[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, especially someone who could have said, you know, even though I was a trauma therapist at the time, like, hey, you're nervous system.
21:33.570 --> 21:43.919
[SPEAKER_03]: You don't really have enough juice for this, you know, like you're in more of a, you're in dorsal here, you know, and maybe start on the floor and then, you know, shift.
21:44.099 --> 21:51.666
[SPEAKER_03]: Move into, yeah, go up regulate instead of, you know, when we think about regulation, it's often talking about down regulating.
21:51.966 --> 21:54.888
[SPEAKER_03]: I guess you want to say a little bit about that since I brought that.
21:55.689 --> 21:56.429
[SPEAKER_01]: But you might if I go.
21:56.710 --> 21:57.510
[SPEAKER_01]: Just yeah.
21:57.610 --> 21:57.890
[SPEAKER_01]: Please.
21:58.230 --> 21:58.470
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.
21:58.551 --> 22:01.592
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think that experience is very, very common.
22:02.072 --> 22:06.515
[SPEAKER_01]: The majority of my clients have trauma from the fitness world.
22:06.595 --> 22:15.879
[SPEAKER_01]: And again, part of why Chelsea and I didn't feel safe transferring our clients to trainers in our local area because that's the traditional fitness culture.
22:16.160 --> 22:20.442
[SPEAKER_01]: And so what we're doing and a lot of times the myth that we hear is like, oh, you're not.
22:21.022 --> 22:23.144
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just slower and you're not going to get a lot of it.
22:23.184 --> 22:25.945
[SPEAKER_01]: You're not going to like, you're not going to sweat or work hard.
22:26.486 --> 22:28.927
[SPEAKER_01]: Many of my clients are lifting heavier than they ever have.
22:29.047 --> 22:32.370
[SPEAKER_01]: And part of that is because we create a model of flexibility.
22:32.390 --> 22:39.795
[SPEAKER_01]: Not an expectation of being regulated all the time, not an expectation that you're going to show up the exact same every single time.
22:40.295 --> 22:42.937
[SPEAKER_01]: But the flexibility to say no to things.
22:43.277 --> 22:50.742
[SPEAKER_01]: to substitute movement, to not do anything other than go for a walk or do some longer stretching.
22:51.502 --> 22:53.884
[SPEAKER_01]: And in turn, that creates the consistency.
22:54.224 --> 22:59.267
[SPEAKER_01]: When our bodies know that they can say no, it opens up a lot more yes.
23:00.288 --> 23:05.391
[SPEAKER_01]: But if we're constantly told that you're no and sometimes our bodies
23:08.408 --> 23:20.499
[SPEAKER_01]: the late to the session or canceling and ghosting or even like a lot of physical symptoms like feeling that you're going to pass out or feeling nauseous.
23:20.899 --> 23:24.082
[SPEAKER_01]: And if every single time those things come up and the train or those, yep.
23:25.108 --> 23:49.177
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially with chronic illness and chronic pain like we have to have a flexible approach because you never know what you're going to get on any given day so we're just facilitating patterns of shame if we don't address that and create space for it and if every time the body saying no the trainers like suck it up do it anyways you don't you must not want enough like that is coming from such a harmful place.
23:49.994 --> 24:00.800
[SPEAKER_01]: And so in this model, we really welcome all that comes up and I was told my clients like if a trainer has ever told you well there's nothing else we can do like.
24:02.144 --> 24:07.286
[SPEAKER_01]: There's a lack going on there because there are a million ways to move your body.
24:07.846 --> 24:14.969
[SPEAKER_01]: So if you're telling me that like you just do not want to do squats today, your knees are cranky, I'm like, okay, yeah, no problem.
24:14.989 --> 24:19.491
[SPEAKER_01]: I got a list of a million other movements that we could do instead that would help your knees.
24:20.591 --> 24:23.972
[SPEAKER_01]: So it's kind of creating this mindset that like when we're in
24:29.274 --> 24:30.655
[SPEAKER_01]: in that sympathetic energy.
24:30.675 --> 24:32.576
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't have to be all or nothing.
24:32.836 --> 24:34.197
[SPEAKER_01]: We don't have to just stop.
24:34.738 --> 24:43.203
[SPEAKER_01]: We can really cater our movement to be what we need versus what we feel like we should do or what we're told that we need to do.
24:43.805 --> 24:48.450
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and to add into that, you know, the body be inquited over time.
24:48.590 --> 24:54.257
[SPEAKER_02]: Like my own immune system was like, heaven is stop listening to your bypass.
24:54.477 --> 24:58.641
[SPEAKER_02]: Like I'm just going to yell at you and I still yell at me.
24:58.902 --> 25:03.547
[SPEAKER_02]: I still bypass it and I'm committed to listening and I still bypass it.
25:03.687 --> 25:07.889
[SPEAKER_02]: And so a lot of times, I'm like, I are working on ways to find people's notes.
25:07.989 --> 25:12.271
[SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do we find the edge of, I don't want to do that?
25:12.391 --> 25:14.872
[SPEAKER_02]: I don't feel good after I do it.
25:15.352 --> 25:23.896
[SPEAKER_02]: Or I, this movement felt good last week, not this week, like, really that flexibility is so important.
25:24.897 --> 25:27.059
[SPEAKER_02]: And our nose can change.
25:27.539 --> 25:30.642
[SPEAKER_02]: Our, yes, I want this movement can change.
25:31.042 --> 25:39.210
[SPEAKER_02]: And I remember one of my, one of my own body workers was like Chelsea, we're gonna practice moving at the pace of your body, not your mind.
25:39.550 --> 25:40.931
[SPEAKER_02]: And I'm still working on that.
25:41.071 --> 25:42.192
[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it's really hard.
25:42.913 --> 25:47.097
[SPEAKER_01]: And so much, it comes from this internal anti-fat bias.
25:47.457 --> 26:01.771
[SPEAKER_01]: that collectively as a society we all hold and there's like we are conditioned to think like there are specific ways that we have to move our body in order to not gain weight and those ways of moving our body are intense.
26:02.432 --> 26:10.560
[SPEAKER_01]: not sustainable, really not enjoyable to the point where the majority of people, like it's just natural, like it's not sustainable to stick with it.
26:10.581 --> 26:12.543
[SPEAKER_01]: So again, that's that's shame spiral.
26:13.003 --> 26:19.290
[SPEAKER_01]: So we're in the business of consistency, and if we step outside that box of only moving for aesthetics,
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[SPEAKER_01]: it opens up so much like what if we moved because it just felt good or what if we moved because like it helped just feel calmer what if we moved to get into our body or to like release a motion there's just so many other ways to engage with movement rather than the most intense switch burns out or already burns out burned out nervous systems even more.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, I'm just thinking about that.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And I'm like, that's what was happening for me.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I was I was really having like an adrenal fatigue, systemic response, and trying to find more, you know, capacity from a very depleted system.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It didn't, and beating myself up or allowing him to beat me up emotionally didn't help either.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I stayed with it for a very long time, too.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I mean, like, years and years.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Um, so obviously, I'm still coming to terms with my chronic illness autoimmune situation because it's pretty new, you know, in spite of the symptoms aren't new, but the diagnosis is new.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So, um, you know, like like everyone, I work with people who have chronic illness, but actually having one is like, oh,
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[SPEAKER_02]: And the weird thing is that I've had it.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I just didn't know I had it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So it's just, it's that adjustment to not overriding like you were saying Chelsea.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And you mentioned that you work with people, Chelsea, who have chronic illness as well.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And Curious, how do you bring trauma-informed personal training and or body work into therapy?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Yeah.
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[SPEAKER_03]: With people with chronic illness.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, part of it is my own lived experience.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I also have an autoimmune sometimes manage sometimes not managed pattern in my own nervous system.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so I started doing cranial sacral therapy to help my nervous system regulate because I felt very disconnected from my body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I have hypermobile EDS.
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[SPEAKER_03]: And so I have hypermodality too, so I'm checking to see if it's EDS.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and it's in my family, so we went down the whole path of confirmation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It's quite a journey, like 10 years of navigating.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But to answer, we're hitting you up.
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[SPEAKER_03]: We're having lunch soon.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We should definitely do this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But I've talked to so many trainers who are like, oh my gosh, the HEDS, the overlaps with autoimmune HEDS, trauma symptoms, nervous system dysregulation.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, the intersections are just wild, and we could we could rabbit hold this.
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[SPEAKER_02]: But to focus on your question, my own path has been, I could not be where I am today without bodywork and without fantastic bodywork.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I also have a great somatic therapist, and so I was like, well, if I love my somatic therapist and my body worth, what if I just helped people in an integrative way, because like these are the things that should be done together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And when I say stuck, I mean like really that adrenal fatigue that I'm not well, I can barely, like parts of them are high functioning, I have, you know, I use IFS parts work, parts of them are very high functioning and parts of them are really in collapse place, you know, they get through Monday through Friday and then the whole weekend is recovery and it's a cycle.
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[SPEAKER_02]: and I've been there.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I understand that entirely and so it feels like right the only way forward is to work on the patterns and support the body.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So for me it's my opinion and so I can have a client who is you know aware of the patterns in their own parts work aware of what part is pushing
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[SPEAKER_02]: And if we can work with that part, like it becomes blended with self, which is a lot of, you know, that part's work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: While they're in a cranial sacral therapy session, while the body is being supported, I've developed a scent like I work with people who I, you know, have a relationship with.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So we can be like, what do you notice saying?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What am I noticing?
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[SPEAKER_02]: What's coming up in the body right now?
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[SPEAKER_02]: I trained with a fantastic practitioner.
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[SPEAKER_02]: My name is Elaine Duncan.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She's in Silver Spring, Maryland.
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[SPEAKER_02]: She does the doubt trauma training, which is integrating five element theory with yes, this book.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm just planning on getting in touch with her too.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So I've been working with Elaine for almost two years.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm in the second year working
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[SPEAKER_02]: This five element theory of regulating the body through the organ system and the muscle system and the fluid system and working with the cranial sacral system as well.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I'm really passionate about the body and what it has to say as we try to work in the patterns of stuckness with cart's work.
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[SPEAKER_02]: And so in my experience, when we can work with the body and the part, together, we can do like six months of therapy in a lot of work in a very short amount of time because the body is supported when we're working through stuckness.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's been really, it's life-changing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: It's amazing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Oh my gosh, this is so exciting and we don't have time to keep going.
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[SPEAKER_03]: But I wish I could pick your brains a lot longer.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So for now, I'll say this is super cool.
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[SPEAKER_03]: You offer training to personal trainers, body workers.
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[SPEAKER_03]: Why don't you say who's it for?
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[SPEAKER_03]: How do you deliver it and where can people find it?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Because I'm sure that some people who are
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[SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so we used to be live and we went fully virtual.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So at hopeignitedtraining.com, Emily and I have a course that is both a foundations if you're just curious and don't want to commit to a full search and then we have a full search for trainers who want to become trauma informed personal trainers.
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[SPEAKER_02]: on our website for download and it has CEUs through the National Association of Sports Medicine.
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[SPEAKER_02]: If any therapist are listening or any other body worker who's like what is Chelsea talking about with this in the same room as another person and doing this,
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[SPEAKER_02]: The cranial sacral therapist that I work with and collaborate with, we have a course online for download calling body parts integration.
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[SPEAKER_02]: We have a recorded session in that training that shows what we mean when we say doing joint work together.
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[SPEAKER_02]: So any trauma therapist and body worker who wants a framework for how to do this work together, we have a course for download as well
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[SPEAKER_03]: Fabulous.
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[SPEAKER_03]: That's so cool.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I love it.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so grateful that you shared that and then your book is that on hopingnightetraining.com or where do we find that?
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[SPEAKER_02]: It is.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It also has its own website because why not?
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[SPEAKER_03]: Hey, you can never have too many websites.
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[SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm laying
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[SPEAKER_03]: amazing.
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[SPEAKER_03]: I'm so excited for you and we are really lucky here in this local area to have such brilliant minds doing such amazing things.
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[SPEAKER_03]: So thank you so much for your beautiful important work and for coming on therapy chat today.
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[SPEAKER_02]: Thank you so much for having us.
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[SPEAKER_02]: It was lovely.
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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Therapy Chat with your host, Laura Reagan, LCSWC.
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[SPEAKER_00]: For more information, please visit Therapy ChatPodcast.com.
