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Hello and welcome to another episode of The Therapist Connect podcast.
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Today we've got a slightly different episode from our usual interviews around therapist life and work.
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We have a re-release of a YouTube discussion that was held between Caz Binstead and Myira Khan back in May, 2024.
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I'll let Kas fully introduce the episode for you, but just wanted to highlight that just in case.
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There's any reference to any events or dates, within the episode.
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You'll know that those events are probably already passed and gone by.
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So I hope you enjoy this episode, as much as I did re-listing to it.
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Hello, uh, my name's Caz Binstead.
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I'm the co-lead of Therapist Connect and welcome to Therapist Connect Broadcasts.
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I'm delighted to be here today, um, with, uh, Myira Khan, um, the wonderful Myira Khan, who many people are gonna know, uh, Myira, um, um, from, uh, from her writing, um, from.
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Some of the work for the profession that she's done, um, also on social media where you kind of have hung, hung out for quite a few years.
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Um, so I am gonna introduce you properly.
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Um, let me just change the view on my thing.
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Um, so Myira is a multi-award winning accredited counselor, supervisor, coach, and counseling tutor.
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The founder of the Muslim Counselor and psychotherapist Network, M-C-A-P-N, and author of Working Within Diversity, a Reflective Guide to Anti-Oppressive Practice in Counseling and Therapy, which was published in July, 2023.
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And is the book that we're gonna be talking about today?
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Myira has over 14 years of clinical experience alongside delivering workshops, trainings and events internationally, or working within diversity and anti-oppressive prac practice, and is a regular keynote speaker and presenter at conferences and events.
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Working within diversity, both the book and the accompanying workshop and training series is a culmination of her counseling and supervision experience.
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Alongside her extensive teaching and training experience, delivering workshops on identity, culture, and diversity to create a robust foundation and framework for anti-oppressive practice in therapy supervision.
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Coaching and all practitioner led practices and professions across all modalities.
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As the founder of the Muslim Counselor and Psychotherapist Network, um, established over 10 years ago, Myira runs the network for Muslim counselors, therapists and psychologists offering support CPD opportunities and raising the visibility of Muslim practitioners.
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A visibly Muslim ethnically minoritized neurodivergent, A DHD practitioner.
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Mayra represents a diversity and intersectional identity within the therapeutic and coaching professions supporting the establishment of diversity.
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Anti-oppressive practice and culturally attuned practice within the profession, alongside promoting counseling and coaching to ethnically minoritized, Muslim neurodivergent and underrepresented, marginalized and intersectional communities and clients.
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So as I say, we are delighted to have you today.
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So here's the book.
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Um, and, uh, yeah, maybe a good place to start there is, um, why you wanted to write this particular book.
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Why this?
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Oh gosh, it's, it's, first of all,'cause it's such an interesting question in itself because I didn't know what the book was actually going to end up looking like until I actually wrote it, if that makes sense.
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Mm-hmm.
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My starting point very much was being able to impart and share all of the.
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Content and material and thought and discussions that I'd already been delivering in my training and workshops that I've been delivering over the past X number of years, um, 10 years or so.
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And it was actually in the process of saying, right, let me bring it all together.
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The, what I very quickly then established was actually this is a model, this is a framework.
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This is a really clear understanding of how we need to be and should be working.
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So in a way, I talk in the book about emergent process, um, versus diver, uh, directive processes.
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The book actually became an emergent process in and of itself.
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Um, so yeah, it it merged outta writing it interestingly.
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Yeah.
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But that's great because it's, um, it's a reflexive book.
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And you, yourself, you were going through that process.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I intentionally actually, I was, I think that was the one thing actually that was there from the beginning of writing the book.
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The one thing I definitely knew with the book that I was, that I wanted it to be.
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An interactive reflective guide like me being on that journey beside the reader and saying, right, let me support you through this journey.
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Um, so that was the only thing I knew at the beginning about what the book was going to be.
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Okay.
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And then the rest of it emerged as I started to write it.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Um, and,'cause that was gonna be one of my questions.
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Why did you choose that particular style?
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Because just to inform people I can poss possibly show people actually we've got, I dunno if people can see that, but all through the book we've got, uh, reflect, uh, reflective exercises as well as kind of, you know, diagrams.
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So it's a very, very.
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Engaging an interactive book and I suppose just thinking about re uh, reading your bio there, that does fit with everything you've been doing.
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So when you talk about, you know, it's actually larger than just a book, like teaching and stuff like that.
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Yes.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I wanted the book, I wanted the book to be something that felt for the reader that they were actually in the book.
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And so by writing physically in the book means that you are in a way co-creating the book with me as you work through it.
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And what I didn't want was the book to be directive.
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I didn't want the book to be, I am telling you.
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Answers, or I'm telling you, this is what you should be doing or ought to be doing.
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I didn't want it to be a lecture.
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I didn't want it to be, this is what is themed as right and correct.
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Um, I, I didn't want to come from that oppressive position.
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I very much wanted the book to emulate and mirror.
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An anti-oppressive relationship, um, by me kind of inviting the reader and inviting you to engage with what I'm talking about and presenting to you and helping you to think and reflect on.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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It's one of the things I love about the book.
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I think you really succeed in doing that, by the way.
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Um, and you do.
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You do pick up on, what I would say is, you know, as someone who has, as you know, an interest in, um, social justice and done a lot of work in it myself, um, you do pick up on what I would say are all the kind of the key words in your chapter headings.
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Um, I mean, one of my favorites is, um, the chapter on power and privilege.
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Um, do you have, do you, do you have a kind of, I dunno, a favorite chapter yourself and would you recommend that people can.
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Dip in and dip out, or does it all fit together?
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Crossover?
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What do you think?
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I wrote, I think I've even written in the book actually, kinda how to use the book.
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And it can be used either as working your way through it, or you can dip into a chapter and if it then references something earlier on or in another chapter, it tells you so.
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Because essentially as a quick overview, the book is like in two parts.
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Part one, the first half of the book is presenting the actual content concepts and material and framework.
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Part two then is very much about taking all of that part one and then talking about how do we then actually apply it into therapeutic coaching, psychological, um, therapeutic practices.
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So even if you were to dip into anything in part two, having not read its sister chapter in part one, I kind of reference you back to it.
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Um.
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So I wrote it again with this understanding of I wanted it to be accessible and I didn't want people to feel daunted by it and open a book and only see text.
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There are diagrams and visuals and graphics, and as you said, those reflective exercises.
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So it was a way, it was in all of that was very intentional in terms of.
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My favorite chapters, I mean, an obvious one, one would be the chapter on the working Within Diversity Model itself, because that in of itself, um, is absolutely brand new.
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It's a brand new concept, a brand new framework and model.
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First time ever it's been published and thought about, you know, anti-oppressive practice in this way.
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So for me, the chapter on the model would be, you know, the gem within it.
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Having said that, though.
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I think of then so many chapters, certainly in the part two section where it's about how do you do this in the work.
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I so often think of those chapters really fondly as well, because that's what practitioners are looking for.
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Or how do I think about power and privilege?
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Here you go.
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Here's some tools, literal tools in the book, you know, identity wheel scales of power.
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Um, the spectrums of oppression.
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So I feel like.
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Throughout the book, there are dotted certain gems that I go, oh, if people are asking me about things, I'm like, go to this chapter or go to that tool, look in the appendix at the back.
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Um, I, I, I, as I said, I've intentionally made a book that practitioners can physically, practically use in their clinical practice.
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And I guess that's what we'd be saying to some of the viewers today, you know, actually.
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A book such as this is gonna be really, really useful, um, in so many ways, but you're gonna be able to apply things practically Yes.
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In your work, um, your work with clients, but also, you know Yes.
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Larger within, within the profession.
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Yes.
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Um, and I guess, um, you know, there's, there's always questions.
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Uh, this question that comes up, um, um, is therapy political, does politics come into.
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Profession.
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So what would you say to that?
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Short answer is yes, it absolutely is political.
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And I, and again, I, I, I, I write that very, very explicitly in the book as well.
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Um, the longer answer to that is, is that therapy is political because.
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Therapy, the actual therapeutic practice side of things.
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But the profession more broadly does not exist in a vacuum or a bubble from the rest of the world.
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So therefore, what gets brought into the therapeutic profession and practice is what is going on out there in the rest of the world.
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And the world is built on social, cultural, and political contexts and concepts.
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So every client we are working with, every supervisee we're working with, every, even, um, in the training part of counseling and the students that we are supporting, tutors, all of our lived experiences that are being brought into these relationships, counseling, relationships, supervision, relationships, training relationships, any prac practitioner, professional relationship.
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What is being bought into?
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All of these relationships are our lived experiences out there, which all take place within this political context.
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We are shaped and informed by political, um, the political kind of temperature.
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We are influenced by what is happening out there in the world, and especially when I think about clients.
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When the purpose of therapy as a practitioner is to hold and value, contain and respect a client's narrative and lived experience, we have to hold and respect that narrative and their lived experience in that, in that broader out there context.
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So therapy absolutely is political.
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And not only that, in order to engage in work from an anti-oppressive, um, position is to then recognize that we all exist on, within a framework of, of oppression, that we occupy positions of power and privilege.
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We also occupy positions of being oppressed, and so again.
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We have to recognize that that gets brought into the room through client's narratives and experience, but also our relationships can often mirror that if we are not careful, if we are not being conscious about out their oppressive power dynamics, we are gonna just recreate them in here.
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So on all lots of multiple layers, therapy is political, not only in terms of its context, but also in terms of its content as well.
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Yeah.
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Absolutely.
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Absolutely.
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Um, I wanted to pick up on, uh, your, your favorite part, your u the unique bit about this book.
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So I say I work with diversity, you say working within, you work within diversity within diversity.
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So do you wanna just explain a little bit about the difference between those two?
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Yeah.
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So.
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If I going to really quickly kind of deconstruct the phrase, working with diversity.
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When we say we are working with diversity, if we were to take a very simple, um, analogy of a counselor and client in the room.
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If a counselor says that they are working with diversity, what they are doing is they are taking the label of diversity and they are attaching it to the client.
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So the client in their identity gets labeled as diverse.
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So in this respect, then diversity becomes the identity label.
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That is Al already your first mistake in that respect.
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The moment we say that the client is diverse, we are then saying that not only does diversity become the identity of the client, but by putting all of diverse identities and labeling them with the client, we are then indirectly saying that if the client is diverse and different, they, it becomes a comparative term.
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In relationship to the counselor.
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So if the client is diverse and different, they have to be in diverse and different from somebody else.
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And who do they become diverse and different from the counselor?
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Yeah.
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But if all of the diversity sits with the client, who does the counselor become in their identity?
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What that actually does, maybe unintentionally, unconsciously, is that the counselor then in their identity gets positioned as being normative, centered and neutral.
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So just by you saying that we are working with diversity, we have placed all of diversity in any type of difference with the client, and we then, as the council, have positioned ourselves as neutral, normative, and centered in our identity, whatever our identity is.
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So straight away we have set up an oppressive dynamic.
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We have minoritized, marginalized, and othered the client.
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Whenever I describe that, I always think of the metaphor of, you know, the English blue heritage plaques that you see on the side of buildings.
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So and so famous lived here, diversity lives here than with the client.
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Mm-hmm.
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And the moment we do that, we've already made our first mistake.
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Yeah.
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It's folks really take this in.
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Okay.
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The first time I heard this, I heard you speak at, um.
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I can't, I can't remember.
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I mean, obviously I went to your book launch, so I heard you speak there, but I, I think when I really took this in, I was watching you at some seminar or something.
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Yeah.
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And I was like.
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That is in, that is, that is absolutely so true.
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And um, it's, it's such a simple way of being able to describe it as well.
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And I suppose it also really challenges that, um, that notion that comes up when maybe people say therapy is not political and that we should remain neutral.
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Actually, what you are saying is it's already, it's already set up in an oppressive way if you're Yeah, there's no position.
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Yeah.
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There's no neutrality in the work that we do, and if we are saying that we're trying to be neutral, we're actually being oppressive by saying that we are neutral.
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There is all, there's an irony in saying that we should, we should be, or we are neutral if anyone says that we're actually being oppressive because we can't be neutral in our identity or in our position.
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There's no such thing as nut neutrality in the room.
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Um, so, and, and that's why the work, that's one of the problems of why working with diversity is an oppressive term because it sets up this, this oppressive dynamic.
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It others, the client as being diverse and different.
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And we then take up an incredibly oppress, oppress, oppressive position and an incredibly privileged position of saying then that we are neutral.
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We have, um, normalized, we've made ourselves normative.
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I mean, just, I mean, how egotistical, how, how, um, power driven is that, that it's such, it's so driven by being the oppressor and having those supremist qualities.
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Um, so yeah, so that is a very brief deconstruction of working with diversity.
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Yeah.
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And, and obviously within the book, you know, it, it explains that Yes.
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Model, um, um, you know, which as my has already said, it's not just text.
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You know, this is quite a accessible book for people.
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Um, what would be your biggest hope?
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I mean, the book's been out, um, for quite a, quite a while now.
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Was it last summer?
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Yeah, last July it came out.
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Yeah.
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So, I dunno what you've seen, um, what you've heard from people.
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What, but what's been, what was your biggest hope for this book?
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I, I think my biggest hope was that the best way I can describe it is that it shifted the needle in that if, if we have been so entrenched in working with diversity and an incredibly.
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Normative position actually of thinking about working with diversity and we would, we took that as standard on training curriculums and in trainings and, and the concept of it.
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What I wanted to do with the book was hoping that it would nudge the needle slightly over into working within diversity and understanding truly and fully what anti-oppressive practice actually means.
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And, and they are, and they are mutually exclusive.
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Like you cannot say, oh, I'm anti-oppressive and I work with diversity.
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The two, the two are mutually exclusive.
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So for me it was about can this book nudge that needle into getting people to really take stock of how things have been taught previously and traditionally about the concept of diversity.
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Because I just don't think it's ever actually been deconstructed or questioned or challenged in such a way before.
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Mm-hmm.
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Um, and so yeah, my hope was that it noticed the needle, and I think it has done that to a degree.
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Yeah.
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Good stuff.
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Well, I, I always see that you are, you are going places and kind of doing workshops and doing teaching and, um, um, you know, I guess, um.
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Uh, you and I, we talk sometimes about how we've, we've had quite a lot in common.
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I mean, we're both X book sellers.
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Um, but aside from from that, you know, uh, we've both kind of been internal in a membership body, um, as volunteers.
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Um, we've, we've both done teaching and things like that.
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Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.493 --> 00:20:39.844
And I think we both agree that there's a lot of work to be done in our profession on this stuff.
00:20:39.874 --> 00:20:40.713
Um, yes.
00:20:42.094 --> 00:20:46.058
Do you, do you have hope that things can.
00:20:47.554 --> 00:20:47.973
Improve.
00:20:47.973 --> 00:21:06.634
I mean, obviously you, you mainly, um, uh, write and talk about, you know, race, ethnicity, faith, but you, you know, your, this book, it does, it does take, you know, a broader view of, um, um, you know, working within all forms of diversity.
00:21:06.963 --> 00:21:07.054
Mm-hmm.
00:21:07.203 --> 00:21:11.074
Um, but yeah, how, how hopeful are you that things can change?
00:21:11.703 --> 00:21:13.953
Yeah, I, I am hopeful.
00:21:14.199 --> 00:21:24.364
I, I still think though, if I was to go back to that kinda metaphor of nudging the needle, I, I, I, I, I think we yet to get to the point where, where we haven't yet got to the tipping point of it.
00:21:24.423 --> 00:21:26.854
Like we still need to work hard to keep nudging it.
00:21:27.453 --> 00:21:31.534
But I do think that continued efforts to.
00:21:31.999 --> 00:21:43.068
Continue to work, you know, between us collectively talk about issues around social justice, to talk about anti-oppressive practice and to recognize that that happens across all levels of the profession.
00:21:43.278 --> 00:21:56.118
I think if we continue to challenge that, hopefully we will get to the point where it's that tipping point where then, okay, now that becomes, um, the more common practice.
00:21:57.138 --> 00:22:18.318
Right now, it feels like in order to say you are anti-oppressive, in order to say that, yes, I do work around social justice and that I work within diversity, it feels like it ha, it needs to be a very intentional and very proactive stance to take against the norm, if that makes sense.
00:22:18.739 --> 00:22:25.159
But I'm hoping that actually in time, that becomes the norm itself because actually we think about anti-oppressive practice.
00:22:25.864 --> 00:22:27.963
That for me is actually ethical working.
00:22:27.963 --> 00:22:37.804
If we look at the ethical frameworks across all professional bodies, actually working within diversity and anti-oppressive practice is to be working ethically and.
00:22:38.884 --> 00:22:44.134
It's not to say that anybody that doesn't agree with anti-oppressive practice is not being ethical.
00:22:44.314 --> 00:22:52.503
I think it's about understanding where there already are commonalities between them, where there are already links between ethical working and anti-oppressive practice.
00:22:52.683 --> 00:23:05.584
Like I said, it, it's just more work needs to be to kind of get into that tipping point where then it starts to happen and like the domino effect of it being rolled out across all training courses and in all ethical frameworks.
00:23:06.544 --> 00:23:07.233
Definitely.
00:23:07.233 --> 00:23:07.953
Definitely.
00:23:08.284 --> 00:23:08.703
Yeah.
00:23:08.703 --> 00:23:12.183
Um, that is, that is an interesting point actually.
00:23:12.183 --> 00:23:18.693
And yeah, that's probably my dream as well, that it's just, you know, you're not like over there.
00:23:19.203 --> 00:23:19.384
Yes.
00:23:20.163 --> 00:23:24.074
You know, uh, and, and I think maybe part of that is.
00:23:25.398 --> 00:23:27.828
Learning to have difficult conversations.
00:23:27.858 --> 00:23:27.949
Yes.
00:23:27.949 --> 00:23:32.209
Because you know, all of us, and particularly when we think about ethics mm-hmm.
00:23:32.269 --> 00:23:34.669
Ethics is not a black and white right and wrong.
00:23:34.939 --> 00:23:37.398
It's being able to look at the nuances Yes.
00:23:37.398 --> 00:23:38.838
And look at what's going on.
00:23:39.078 --> 00:23:39.169
Yes.
00:23:39.169 --> 00:23:40.669
And then to do that, uh.
00:23:41.013 --> 00:23:41.253
Yeah.
00:23:41.253 --> 00:23:46.324
Things need to be, obviously not client work, but you know, on a broader scale, things need to be talked about.
00:23:46.324 --> 00:23:46.413
Yes.
00:23:46.653 --> 00:23:55.203
Um, and like you and I, you know, we've known each other since 2019 and we've probably had a couple of difficult conversations, um, between us.
00:23:55.354 --> 00:23:55.534
Yeah.
00:23:55.534 --> 00:23:56.943
You know, and it just feels.
00:23:57.604 --> 00:23:58.713
Actually so important.
00:23:58.713 --> 00:24:03.364
That is part of the work and that is part of working out together collectively.
00:24:03.634 --> 00:24:04.624
Absolutely.
00:24:04.624 --> 00:24:05.013
Forward.
00:24:05.104 --> 00:24:05.584
Yeah.
00:24:05.584 --> 00:24:09.304
All of this is about collective collaboration, co-production.
00:24:09.304 --> 00:24:16.564
It's about doing the work together, and again, it's about recognizing that the profession itself doesn't have a fixed endpoint.
00:24:17.449 --> 00:24:19.729
The profession itself is an emergent process.
00:24:20.179 --> 00:24:24.469
So the profession reflects the work we do with clients and with supervisees.
00:24:24.769 --> 00:24:36.048
It evolves and changes over time, and I think the reason why it feels like we have to keep pushing until we get to that tipping point is because we have to offer something.
00:24:37.114 --> 00:24:39.124
That feels understandable.
00:24:39.124 --> 00:24:46.683
We have to offer frameworks and models and most importantly language that people really understand why we are now changing the language.
00:24:46.923 --> 00:24:47.709
Like there's no point in me saying.
00:24:48.469 --> 00:25:00.318
We now just need to be using the term working within diversity if people don't understand why or equally, the other big kind of pivot I make in the book is switching from cultural competence to cultural attunement.
00:25:00.949 --> 00:25:03.378
Now it's all very well for people to say.
00:25:03.723 --> 00:25:04.804
Um, oh yeah.
00:25:04.804 --> 00:25:14.433
I'm now going to, I'm now going to work, as you know, as a culturally attuned counselor, but people are not really going to embrace it unless they know why you need to pivot away from competency.
00:25:14.943 --> 00:25:31.413
But when certain languages and concepts are so embedded and entrenched in our trainings and and profession, it just takes that little bit longer for pe, for the word to be spread, literally for the word to be spread, for people to recognize that we are now challenging certain.
00:25:31.878 --> 00:25:35.449
Said, certain embedded and entre and entrenched languages or concepts.
00:25:35.838 --> 00:25:37.729
So something like cultural competency.
00:25:37.729 --> 00:25:53.419
We are, we are, I think we are moving away from, some of us have absolutely moved away from it wholeheartedly like I have, but I'm starting to see more and more people, more and more practitioners going, oh, I get why we need to change the language.
00:25:53.749 --> 00:25:58.354
Because it isn't just about changing a word, it's about changing them relationally.
00:25:58.459 --> 00:26:00.439
How we then work with our clients.
00:26:00.798 --> 00:26:01.278
Mm-hmm.
00:26:01.624 --> 00:26:01.894
Yeah.
00:26:02.193 --> 00:26:02.463
Yeah.
00:26:02.884 --> 00:26:03.663
And language.
00:26:04.294 --> 00:26:10.203
Um, well, the whole point of language is so that we understand things.
00:26:10.534 --> 00:26:10.653
Yeah.
00:26:10.653 --> 00:26:20.824
I've thought about this a lot, uh, this past year because I think it's very easy for us as people to get stuck on certain words, certain phrases.
00:26:21.189 --> 00:26:21.608
Mm-hmm.
00:26:21.689 --> 00:26:28.294
Um, and even if we might actually then involve in our thinking, we might still be using the same terminology.
00:26:28.294 --> 00:26:30.634
So this feels like a really important point.
00:26:30.979 --> 00:26:31.489
Yes.
00:26:31.669 --> 00:26:38.179
And, and that's why, and actually that's, that's the starting point, point with working within diversity.
00:26:38.388 --> 00:26:43.818
People go, it's just a change of a word, but that just a change.
00:26:43.818 --> 00:26:47.719
And I use that word intentionally just by change a word.
00:26:47.959 --> 00:26:54.243
We dramatically and drastically forever change how we work with clients and supervisees and with students.
00:26:55.308 --> 00:26:57.318
And I'm like, well, that's the power of language.
00:26:57.528 --> 00:27:18.288
And that's why we have to be so mindful of the language we use and the, and the words we give to concepts or the words we give to, um, the processes, pr, um, practices and concepts that we use within our modalities, because it's about really understanding what does that word actually mean.
00:27:19.413 --> 00:27:20.374
There is a big difference.
00:27:20.374 --> 00:27:37.953
For example, there's a big difference between saying that I'm, I'm culturally competent, versus I am, I try to be culturally attuned, or I offer cultural attunements to my clients because one is about the first one, competence is about cognitive knowledge, skills, and understanding.
00:27:38.433 --> 00:27:40.294
Nothing to do about relationship with client.
00:27:40.864 --> 00:27:46.354
Cultural attunement for me is all about relational, relational work and being relational with my client.
00:27:46.653 --> 00:27:55.713
And between those two, I know which one for me is going to be a better outcome for my work and actually which one is going to be better effective use within my practice as well.
00:27:55.953 --> 00:27:59.733
And the one that offers an equality and anti-oppressive relationship.
00:28:00.273 --> 00:28:01.594
Mm-hmm.
00:28:01.595 --> 00:28:01.605
Yeah.
00:28:01.669 --> 00:28:02.598
Yeah, definitely.
00:28:04.189 --> 00:28:08.959
So, um, are you able to say what you are working on next?
00:28:08.959 --> 00:28:14.058
Do you want to, or, uh, secrets going on, but what, what can I say?
00:28:14.778 --> 00:28:18.409
So, I, I've actually currently got two different book projects on the go at the moment.
00:28:18.648 --> 00:28:22.413
Um, one, um, what can I say about each?
00:28:22.413 --> 00:28:27.348
So one of them, it's, I'm editing a book, so I have got other, um.
00:28:28.413 --> 00:28:37.804
They are all, um, practitioners of color and it's specifically focusing on tutors of color and I'm editing a book on that.
00:28:37.834 --> 00:28:42.963
And so we are right at the moment in the stage of, um, contributors writing their chapters.
00:28:43.324 --> 00:28:49.713
Um, so that's the book that I'm currently well going to be editing once those chapters have been submitted, but that's the book I'm editing.
00:28:50.253 --> 00:28:50.943
Um.
00:28:51.394 --> 00:28:53.703
So that will, I'll be working on that this year.
00:28:54.094 --> 00:29:12.153
And then simultaneously, uh, I'm also now working on, in my mind, what is book two, so my own, um, my next book, which is going to, um, so in working within Diversity, um, one of the final chapters that, um, I'm actually really passionate about is anti-oppressive self-care.
00:29:12.963 --> 00:29:16.923
And so book two is going to be.
00:29:17.574 --> 00:29:26.064
Building upon that concept, and it's specifically going to be for Muslim clients and Muslim audience.
00:29:26.094 --> 00:29:35.929
Having said that, though, the content's applicable to anybody, however, I'm placing that within, um, or referencing certain Islamic.
00:29:36.888 --> 00:29:39.979
Knowledge and understandings and con and contexts.
00:29:40.219 --> 00:29:47.838
However, what I'm actually gonna be talking about in terms of self care and wellbeing is going to be applicable to everybody.
00:29:47.989 --> 00:29:48.048
Wow.
00:29:48.919 --> 00:29:49.848
So that's book two.
00:29:50.749 --> 00:29:51.439
Wow.
00:29:51.439 --> 00:29:53.479
Well, you are a busy person.
00:29:54.169 --> 00:29:54.229
Yeah.
00:29:54.858 --> 00:29:58.489
Um, both those books sound absolutely wonderful though.
00:29:58.699 --> 00:30:02.598
Um, I was just thinking, um, I mentioned training earlier.
00:30:02.719 --> 00:30:02.749
Mm.
00:30:03.318 --> 00:30:06.078
So that one that you are editing, um, yes.
00:30:06.469 --> 00:30:10.219
I'd be really interested'cause I think there's a lot of, um, a lot of work.
00:30:10.249 --> 00:30:17.094
I mean, see, I dunno the ins and outs of it, but there's a lot of work to be, to be done and things to be thought about in the training field.
00:30:17.898 --> 00:30:19.249
Yes, absolutely.
00:30:19.278 --> 00:30:27.769
And for me with that, with the, with the edited book that that's inviting tutors of color to write, um, that, that are currently writing it.
00:30:28.189 --> 00:30:35.598
Um, for me it was really important that tutors of color have a platform not only to share the amazing work between them that they all do.
00:30:36.179 --> 00:30:49.378
Also to platform and to highlight the experiences of tutors of color, having been a tutor of color, myself and I continue to teach in terms of delivering trainings and workshops and and such.
00:30:50.578 --> 00:30:53.219
That experience needs to be captured.
00:30:53.219 --> 00:31:00.659
That experience needs to be shared and understood so that tutors of color can be better supported.
00:31:01.729 --> 00:31:07.969
And can be better understood in terms of their lived experience of being a tutor of color.
00:31:08.328 --> 00:31:17.479
Because as, as, really what we've been saying, kind of this, this whole interview is, it isn't just about the work we do with clients, but actually the profession itself is political.
00:31:18.078 --> 00:31:20.989
And cultural and social and historical.
00:31:21.138 --> 00:31:23.479
It has all of these layers and context to it.
00:31:23.719 --> 00:31:33.499
So it's not just about thinking about just the client, it is thinking about as practitioners and all the different roles we might have in our portfolio working.
00:31:33.888 --> 00:31:39.019
Actually, it's to acknowledge that we then have different experiences in each of those roles.
00:31:39.019 --> 00:31:39.108
Mm-hmm.
00:31:40.219 --> 00:31:41.804
Yeah, I think that's just so important to highlight.
00:31:42.663 --> 00:31:43.624
Really, really?
00:31:43.624 --> 00:31:44.044
Yeah.
00:31:44.104 --> 00:31:44.253
Yeah.
00:31:44.253 --> 00:31:46.953
Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look forward to, to reading that.
00:31:47.314 --> 00:31:53.763
Um, and the second one, um, so, uh, now let me see if I can get the acronym right.
00:31:53.794 --> 00:31:55.324
M-C-A-P-N.
00:31:55.324 --> 00:31:55.743
Is that yours?
00:31:55.743 --> 00:31:56.044
Yes.
00:31:56.229 --> 00:31:56.449
Yes.
00:31:58.324 --> 00:32:03.423
Um, so how, how might, um, Muslim therapists, um.
00:32:03.844 --> 00:32:06.814
Find out about that organization.
00:32:06.814 --> 00:32:09.483
And is there anything you'd like to say about that while you're here?
00:32:09.483 --> 00:32:16.233
Yeah, so yeah, well, really briefly, um, the M-C-A-P-N, the Muslim Council and Psychotherapist Network, two aims.
00:32:16.233 --> 00:32:26.403
One is to absolutely support Muslim counselors, therapists, and psychologists, and they can be either in training, so if as long as you're doing like in that minimum level four, as long as you are in core training.
00:32:26.979 --> 00:32:34.689
Um, or post qualification training, um, or you're qualified and registered with a professional body, you can then join the network.
00:32:34.959 --> 00:32:39.548
And we offer lots of support to practitioners such as we have a peer CPD program.
00:32:40.088 --> 00:32:47.019
Um, we have a peer supervision, um, group that meets monthly and you can, it's like a drop in, like not quite.
00:32:47.019 --> 00:32:49.118
Yeah, you can come to any one you want each month.
00:32:49.568 --> 00:32:50.199
Um.
00:32:50.824 --> 00:32:52.743
And then we have like our members WhatsApp group.
00:32:52.894 --> 00:32:59.344
So lots of ways to connect and to be supported and resourced through either your training or once post qualification.
00:32:59.673 --> 00:33:05.074
And of course then the network has its own, um, counseling directory and supervision directory.
00:33:05.344 --> 00:33:12.423
So that's again, is then the kinda the second aim of the network, which then is about connecting practitioners to Muslim clients and communities.
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:20.199
So for the vast majority of our members, they are in private practice because they want to be working within their own communities.
00:33:20.499 --> 00:33:29.378
And so the counseling directory and supervision directory were just, um, really obvious ways just to connect all of that work together.
00:33:29.858 --> 00:33:30.848
Um, so.
00:33:31.064 --> 00:33:33.824
Yeah, so you don't have to be in private practice to join the network.
00:33:34.064 --> 00:33:36.794
You can join the network and gain all the other benefits as well.
00:33:37.064 --> 00:33:42.824
But details of all of that are on the M-C-A-P-N website, which is very simply mcpn.co uk.
00:33:43.094 --> 00:33:47.443
And we're all over our social medias as well, so you can Google and find us very easily.
00:33:48.034 --> 00:33:48.844
Great stuff.
00:33:48.933 --> 00:33:53.673
Well, hopefully you'll, you'll gain some, you'll gain some members from people watching this.
00:33:53.703 --> 00:33:55.354
Um, yeah.
00:33:55.354 --> 00:34:00.513
So is there anything we haven't talked about that you would really, really like to say?
00:34:00.753 --> 00:34:02.644
Hold the book up whilst you are answering Yeah.
00:34:03.003 --> 00:34:04.203
So people can remember.
00:34:04.568 --> 00:34:04.689
I,
00:34:04.693 --> 00:34:11.284
I think the main thing for me is that with this book, it's an invitation to readers to engage in a topic that.
00:34:12.184 --> 00:34:26.253
If you haven't come across thinking about anti-oppressive practice or working within diversity before, I'm really hoping that with this book, it's an invitation to gently guide you through what this topic and theme is.
00:34:26.643 --> 00:34:38.764
The biggest intention for me, like you said earlier, Caz, it was about making something that can feel incredibly overwhelming and scary and quite fearful to want to kind of dip your toes in.
00:34:39.603 --> 00:34:44.704
I'm kind of taking you guide in, guiding you through that very kindly and gently.
00:34:45.123 --> 00:34:55.954
And I hope then people see this book as a resource to go to, to gently support them in their learning, growth and development in becoming anti-oppressive practitioners.
00:34:56.523 --> 00:34:56.914
Yeah.
00:34:57.903 --> 00:34:58.264
Brilliant.
00:34:58.264 --> 00:35:03.123
Um, well folks, I hope you've enjoyed our chat today.
00:35:03.184 --> 00:35:05.324
Um, I want to thank you so much, Myira.
00:35:05.344 --> 00:35:06.094
I know your.
00:35:06.648 --> 00:35:07.668
Really busy.
00:35:07.728 --> 00:35:09.918
I really do know how super busy you are.
00:35:09.918 --> 00:35:13.699
So, um, it's great to have you here at Therapist Connect.
00:35:13.728 --> 00:35:17.778
Um, so thank you for giving your time and for writing such a wonderful book.
00:35:17.778 --> 00:35:24.018
I'm gonna look forward to, um, viewing, um, yeah, all the work that you've got coming up and uh, yeah.
00:35:24.228 --> 00:35:24.768
Thank you.
00:35:25.369 --> 00:35:25.938
Thanks Cazs.
00:00:00.959 --> 00:00:04.320
Hello and welcome to another episode of The Therapist Connect podcast.
00:00:04.709 --> 00:00:10.500
Today we've got a slightly different episode from our usual interviews around therapist life and work.
00:00:10.710 --> 00:00:18.329
We have a re-release of a YouTube discussion that was held between Caz Binstead and Myira Khan back in May, 2024.
00:00:18.870 --> 00:00:23.684
I'll let Kas fully introduce the episode for you, but just wanted to highlight that just in case.
00:00:24.120 --> 00:00:27.320
There's any reference to any events or dates, within the episode.
00:00:27.620 --> 00:00:31.010
You'll know that those events are probably already passed and gone by.
00:00:32.210 --> 00:00:35.969
So I hope you enjoy this episode, as much as I did re-listing to it.
00:00:42.529 --> 00:00:45.529
Hello, uh, my name's Caz Binstead.
00:00:45.679 --> 00:00:49.999
I'm the co-lead of Therapist Connect and welcome to Therapist Connect Broadcasts.
00:00:50.598 --> 00:01:05.524
I'm delighted to be here today, um, with, uh, Myira Khan, um, the wonderful Myira Khan, who many people are gonna know, uh, Myira, um, um, from, uh, from her writing, um, from.
00:01:06.233 --> 00:01:15.263
Some of the work for the profession that she's done, um, also on social media where you kind of have hung, hung out for quite a few years.
00:01:15.323 --> 00:01:18.144
Um, so I am gonna introduce you properly.
00:01:18.534 --> 00:01:21.593
Um, let me just change the view on my thing.
00:01:22.043 --> 00:01:30.623
Um, so Myira is a multi-award winning accredited counselor, supervisor, coach, and counseling tutor.
00:01:31.474 --> 00:01:47.373
The founder of the Muslim Counselor and psychotherapist Network, M-C-A-P-N, and author of Working Within Diversity, a Reflective Guide to Anti-Oppressive Practice in Counseling and Therapy, which was published in July, 2023.
00:01:47.403 --> 00:01:49.563
And is the book that we're gonna be talking about today?
00:01:49.563 --> 00:02:08.118
Myira has over 14 years of clinical experience alongside delivering workshops, trainings and events internationally, or working within diversity and anti-oppressive prac practice, and is a regular keynote speaker and presenter at conferences and events.
00:02:09.169 --> 00:02:17.658
Working within diversity, both the book and the accompanying workshop and training series is a culmination of her counseling and supervision experience.
00:02:17.899 --> 00:02:32.838
Alongside her extensive teaching and training experience, delivering workshops on identity, culture, and diversity to create a robust foundation and framework for anti-oppressive practice in therapy supervision.
00:02:33.468 --> 00:02:39.199
Coaching and all practitioner led practices and professions across all modalities.
00:02:40.489 --> 00:02:57.049
As the founder of the Muslim Counselor and Psychotherapist Network, um, established over 10 years ago, Myira runs the network for Muslim counselors, therapists and psychologists offering support CPD opportunities and raising the visibility of Muslim practitioners.
00:02:58.114 --> 00:03:04.623
A visibly Muslim ethnically minoritized neurodivergent, A DHD practitioner.
00:03:05.193 --> 00:03:15.484
Mayra represents a diversity and intersectional identity within the therapeutic and coaching professions supporting the establishment of diversity.
00:03:15.859 --> 00:03:34.399
Anti-oppressive practice and culturally attuned practice within the profession, alongside promoting counseling and coaching to ethnically minoritized, Muslim neurodivergent and underrepresented, marginalized and intersectional communities and clients.
00:03:34.729 --> 00:03:37.639
So as I say, we are delighted to have you today.
00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:39.123
So here's the book.
00:03:40.368 --> 00:03:49.609
Um, and, uh, yeah, maybe a good place to start there is, um, why you wanted to write this particular book.
00:03:52.894 --> 00:03:53.764
Why this?
00:03:54.033 --> 00:04:04.713
Oh gosh, it's, it's, first of all,'cause it's such an interesting question in itself because I didn't know what the book was actually going to end up looking like until I actually wrote it, if that makes sense.
00:04:05.104 --> 00:04:05.193
Mm-hmm.
00:04:05.433 --> 00:04:13.473
My starting point very much was being able to impart and share all of the.
00:04:13.679 --> 00:04:22.858
Content and material and thought and discussions that I'd already been delivering in my training and workshops that I've been delivering over the past X number of years, um, 10 years or so.
00:04:23.759 --> 00:04:28.319
And it was actually in the process of saying, right, let me bring it all together.
00:04:29.119 --> 00:04:34.728
The, what I very quickly then established was actually this is a model, this is a framework.
00:04:34.728 --> 00:04:41.509
This is a really clear understanding of how we need to be and should be working.
00:04:41.928 --> 00:04:49.713
So in a way, I talk in the book about emergent process, um, versus diver, uh, directive processes.
00:04:50.108 --> 00:04:53.468
The book actually became an emergent process in and of itself.
00:04:53.528 --> 00:04:57.639
Um, so yeah, it it merged outta writing it interestingly.
00:04:57.939 --> 00:04:58.389
Yeah.
00:04:58.389 --> 00:05:01.749
But that's great because it's, um, it's a reflexive book.
00:05:02.199 --> 00:05:05.829
And you, yourself, you were going through that process.
00:05:06.639 --> 00:05:07.778
Yeah, absolutely.
00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:15.009
And I intentionally actually, I was, I think that was the one thing actually that was there from the beginning of writing the book.
00:05:15.309 --> 00:05:19.298
The one thing I definitely knew with the book that I was, that I wanted it to be.
00:05:19.728 --> 00:05:28.699
An interactive reflective guide like me being on that journey beside the reader and saying, right, let me support you through this journey.
00:05:29.119 --> 00:05:34.639
Um, so that was the only thing I knew at the beginning about what the book was going to be.
00:05:35.028 --> 00:05:35.629
Okay.
00:05:35.629 --> 00:05:37.918
And then the rest of it emerged as I started to write it.
00:05:38.488 --> 00:05:39.119
Yeah.
00:05:39.119 --> 00:05:39.658
Yeah.
00:05:39.988 --> 00:05:42.389
Um, and,'cause that was gonna be one of my questions.
00:05:42.389 --> 00:05:44.819
Why did you choose that particular style?
00:05:44.819 --> 00:05:59.848
Because just to inform people I can poss possibly show people actually we've got, I dunno if people can see that, but all through the book we've got, uh, reflect, uh, reflective exercises as well as kind of, you know, diagrams.
00:05:59.848 --> 00:06:00.838
So it's a very, very.
00:06:01.384 --> 00:06:10.473
Engaging an interactive book and I suppose just thinking about re uh, reading your bio there, that does fit with everything you've been doing.
00:06:10.473 --> 00:06:15.244
So when you talk about, you know, it's actually larger than just a book, like teaching and stuff like that.
00:06:15.274 --> 00:06:15.603
Yes.
00:06:15.963 --> 00:06:17.944
Yeah, absolutely.
00:06:18.004 --> 00:06:30.153
I wanted the book, I wanted the book to be something that felt for the reader that they were actually in the book.
00:06:31.098 --> 00:06:38.509
And so by writing physically in the book means that you are in a way co-creating the book with me as you work through it.
00:06:39.139 --> 00:06:43.939
And what I didn't want was the book to be directive.
00:06:43.939 --> 00:06:47.749
I didn't want the book to be, I am telling you.
00:06:48.889 --> 00:06:52.488
Answers, or I'm telling you, this is what you should be doing or ought to be doing.
00:06:52.728 --> 00:06:53.959
I didn't want it to be a lecture.
00:06:53.959 --> 00:06:59.119
I didn't want it to be, this is what is themed as right and correct.
00:06:59.598 --> 00:07:02.838
Um, I, I didn't want to come from that oppressive position.
00:07:03.139 --> 00:07:07.579
I very much wanted the book to emulate and mirror.
00:07:07.954 --> 00:07:20.163
An anti-oppressive relationship, um, by me kind of inviting the reader and inviting you to engage with what I'm talking about and presenting to you and helping you to think and reflect on.
00:07:20.494 --> 00:07:21.363
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:21.889 --> 00:07:22.009
Absolutely.
00:07:22.053 --> 00:07:23.434
It's one of the things I love about the book.
00:07:23.434 --> 00:07:26.103
I think you really succeed in doing that, by the way.
00:07:26.463 --> 00:07:27.689
Um, and you do.
00:07:28.194 --> 00:07:43.194
You do pick up on, what I would say is, you know, as someone who has, as you know, an interest in, um, social justice and done a lot of work in it myself, um, you do pick up on what I would say are all the kind of the key words in your chapter headings.
00:07:43.254 --> 00:07:48.593
Um, I mean, one of my favorites is, um, the chapter on power and privilege.
00:07:48.653 --> 00:07:56.213
Um, do you have, do you, do you have a kind of, I dunno, a favorite chapter yourself and would you recommend that people can.
00:07:56.629 --> 00:08:00.678
Dip in and dip out, or does it all fit together?
00:08:00.678 --> 00:08:01.428
Crossover?
00:08:01.428 --> 00:08:02.028
What do you think?
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:07.309
I wrote, I think I've even written in the book actually, kinda how to use the book.
00:08:07.399 --> 00:08:17.389
And it can be used either as working your way through it, or you can dip into a chapter and if it then references something earlier on or in another chapter, it tells you so.
00:08:17.694 --> 00:08:20.843
Because essentially as a quick overview, the book is like in two parts.
00:08:21.084 --> 00:08:26.483
Part one, the first half of the book is presenting the actual content concepts and material and framework.
00:08:26.874 --> 00:08:36.474
Part two then is very much about taking all of that part one and then talking about how do we then actually apply it into therapeutic coaching, psychological, um, therapeutic practices.
00:08:36.864 --> 00:08:44.903
So even if you were to dip into anything in part two, having not read its sister chapter in part one, I kind of reference you back to it.
00:08:45.384 --> 00:08:46.073
Um.
00:08:46.563 --> 00:08:59.283
So I wrote it again with this understanding of I wanted it to be accessible and I didn't want people to feel daunted by it and open a book and only see text.
00:08:59.673 --> 00:09:04.024
There are diagrams and visuals and graphics, and as you said, those reflective exercises.
00:09:04.413 --> 00:09:08.644
So it was a way, it was in all of that was very intentional in terms of.
00:09:09.844 --> 00:09:21.933
My favorite chapters, I mean, an obvious one, one would be the chapter on the working Within Diversity Model itself, because that in of itself, um, is absolutely brand new.
00:09:22.323 --> 00:09:25.293
It's a brand new concept, a brand new framework and model.
00:09:25.293 --> 00:09:30.274
First time ever it's been published and thought about, you know, anti-oppressive practice in this way.
00:09:30.514 --> 00:09:35.254
So for me, the chapter on the model would be, you know, the gem within it.
00:09:35.764 --> 00:09:36.658
Having said that, though.
00:09:37.144 --> 00:09:44.854
I think of then so many chapters, certainly in the part two section where it's about how do you do this in the work.
00:09:45.634 --> 00:09:51.484
I so often think of those chapters really fondly as well, because that's what practitioners are looking for.
00:09:51.663 --> 00:09:53.823
Or how do I think about power and privilege?
00:09:53.943 --> 00:09:54.543
Here you go.
00:09:54.543 --> 00:09:59.974
Here's some tools, literal tools in the book, you know, identity wheel scales of power.
00:10:00.303 --> 00:10:02.943
Um, the spectrums of oppression.
00:10:02.943 --> 00:10:04.533
So I feel like.
00:10:05.028 --> 00:10:14.418
Throughout the book, there are dotted certain gems that I go, oh, if people are asking me about things, I'm like, go to this chapter or go to that tool, look in the appendix at the back.
00:10:14.869 --> 00:10:23.479
Um, I, I, I, as I said, I've intentionally made a book that practitioners can physically, practically use in their clinical practice.
00:10:23.524 --> 00:10:23.943
Mm-hmm.
00:10:24.413 --> 00:10:24.703
Yeah.
00:10:25.014 --> 00:10:26.104
Yeah, absolutely.
00:10:26.124 --> 00:10:30.708
And I guess that's what we'd be saying to some of the viewers today, you know, actually.
00:10:31.354 --> 00:10:40.053
A book such as this is gonna be really, really useful, um, in so many ways, but you're gonna be able to apply things practically Yes.
00:10:40.203 --> 00:10:43.774
In your work, um, your work with clients, but also, you know Yes.
00:10:44.163 --> 00:10:45.874
Larger within, within the profession.
00:10:46.533 --> 00:10:46.894
Yes.
00:10:46.894 --> 00:10:50.163
Um, and I guess, um, you know, there's, there's always questions.
00:10:50.224 --> 00:10:58.533
Uh, this question that comes up, um, um, is therapy political, does politics come into.
00:10:59.283 --> 00:11:00.094
Profession.
00:11:00.094 --> 00:11:01.953
So what would you say to that?
00:11:02.433 --> 00:11:06.573
Short answer is yes, it absolutely is political.
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:12.394
And I, and again, I, I, I, I write that very, very explicitly in the book as well.
00:11:12.933 --> 00:11:17.433
Um, the longer answer to that is, is that therapy is political because.
00:11:19.188 --> 00:11:22.639
Therapy, the actual therapeutic practice side of things.
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:27.438
But the profession more broadly does not exist in a vacuum or a bubble from the rest of the world.
00:11:28.038 --> 00:11:35.808
So therefore, what gets brought into the therapeutic profession and practice is what is going on out there in the rest of the world.
00:11:36.229 --> 00:11:42.499
And the world is built on social, cultural, and political contexts and concepts.
00:11:43.083 --> 00:12:03.573
So every client we are working with, every supervisee we're working with, every, even, um, in the training part of counseling and the students that we are supporting, tutors, all of our lived experiences that are being brought into these relationships, counseling, relationships, supervision, relationships, training relationships, any prac practitioner, professional relationship.
00:12:04.249 --> 00:12:05.359
What is being bought into?
00:12:05.359 --> 00:12:11.208
All of these relationships are our lived experiences out there, which all take place within this political context.
00:12:11.448 --> 00:12:17.928
We are shaped and informed by political, um, the political kind of temperature.
00:12:18.349 --> 00:12:24.918
We are influenced by what is happening out there in the world, and especially when I think about clients.
00:12:25.864 --> 00:12:45.604
When the purpose of therapy as a practitioner is to hold and value, contain and respect a client's narrative and lived experience, we have to hold and respect that narrative and their lived experience in that, in that broader out there context.
00:12:46.203 --> 00:12:48.874
So therapy absolutely is political.
00:12:49.413 --> 00:13:05.104
And not only that, in order to engage in work from an anti-oppressive, um, position is to then recognize that we all exist on, within a framework of, of oppression, that we occupy positions of power and privilege.
00:13:05.104 --> 00:13:09.094
We also occupy positions of being oppressed, and so again.
00:13:09.874 --> 00:13:27.183
We have to recognize that that gets brought into the room through client's narratives and experience, but also our relationships can often mirror that if we are not careful, if we are not being conscious about out their oppressive power dynamics, we are gonna just recreate them in here.
00:13:27.663 --> 00:13:38.163
So on all lots of multiple layers, therapy is political, not only in terms of its context, but also in terms of its content as well.
00:13:39.408 --> 00:13:39.948
Yeah.
00:13:40.278 --> 00:13:40.788
Absolutely.
00:13:41.594 --> 00:13:41.874
Absolutely.
00:13:42.499 --> 00:13:50.149
Um, I wanted to pick up on, uh, your, your favorite part, your u the unique bit about this book.
00:13:50.149 --> 00:13:58.308
So I say I work with diversity, you say working within, you work within diversity within diversity.
00:13:58.308 --> 00:14:03.739
So do you wanna just explain a little bit about the difference between those two?
00:14:04.188 --> 00:14:04.729
Yeah.
00:14:04.818 --> 00:14:05.119
So.
00:14:06.033 --> 00:14:10.173
If I going to really quickly kind of deconstruct the phrase, working with diversity.
00:14:10.683 --> 00:14:17.583
When we say we are working with diversity, if we were to take a very simple, um, analogy of a counselor and client in the room.
00:14:18.453 --> 00:14:28.019
If a counselor says that they are working with diversity, what they are doing is they are taking the label of diversity and they are attaching it to the client.
00:14:29.089 --> 00:14:34.158
So the client in their identity gets labeled as diverse.
00:14:34.339 --> 00:14:39.139
So in this respect, then diversity becomes the identity label.
00:14:40.533 --> 00:14:44.403
That is Al already your first mistake in that respect.
00:14:44.764 --> 00:15:04.864
The moment we say that the client is diverse, we are then saying that not only does diversity become the identity of the client, but by putting all of diverse identities and labeling them with the client, we are then indirectly saying that if the client is diverse and different, they, it becomes a comparative term.
00:15:05.153 --> 00:15:06.894
In relationship to the counselor.
00:15:07.224 --> 00:15:12.323
So if the client is diverse and different, they have to be in diverse and different from somebody else.
00:15:12.653 --> 00:15:15.563
And who do they become diverse and different from the counselor?
00:15:16.134 --> 00:15:16.254
Yeah.
00:15:16.283 --> 00:15:21.653
But if all of the diversity sits with the client, who does the counselor become in their identity?
00:15:22.104 --> 00:15:33.384
What that actually does, maybe unintentionally, unconsciously, is that the counselor then in their identity gets positioned as being normative, centered and neutral.
00:15:34.203 --> 00:15:48.543
So just by you saying that we are working with diversity, we have placed all of diversity in any type of difference with the client, and we then, as the council, have positioned ourselves as neutral, normative, and centered in our identity, whatever our identity is.
00:15:48.933 --> 00:15:51.844
So straight away we have set up an oppressive dynamic.
00:15:51.994 --> 00:15:55.413
We have minoritized, marginalized, and othered the client.
00:15:56.344 --> 00:16:02.283
Whenever I describe that, I always think of the metaphor of, you know, the English blue heritage plaques that you see on the side of buildings.
00:16:02.494 --> 00:16:06.634
So and so famous lived here, diversity lives here than with the client.
00:16:07.203 --> 00:16:07.384
Mm-hmm.
00:16:08.014 --> 00:16:10.803
And the moment we do that, we've already made our first mistake.
00:16:11.224 --> 00:16:11.644
Yeah.
00:16:11.913 --> 00:16:13.953
It's folks really take this in.
00:16:13.953 --> 00:16:14.464
Okay.
00:16:14.464 --> 00:16:18.333
The first time I heard this, I heard you speak at, um.
00:16:19.249 --> 00:16:20.509
I can't, I can't remember.
00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:27.798
I mean, obviously I went to your book launch, so I heard you speak there, but I, I think when I really took this in, I was watching you at some seminar or something.
00:16:27.798 --> 00:16:27.859
Yeah.
00:16:27.859 --> 00:16:28.244
And I was like.
00:16:28.938 --> 00:16:33.198
That is in, that is, that is absolutely so true.
00:16:33.678 --> 00:16:38.928
And um, it's, it's such a simple way of being able to describe it as well.
00:16:39.139 --> 00:16:48.259
And I suppose it also really challenges that, um, that notion that comes up when maybe people say therapy is not political and that we should remain neutral.
00:16:49.293 --> 00:16:55.629
Actually, what you are saying is it's already, it's already set up in an oppressive way if you're Yeah, there's no position.
00:16:55.953 --> 00:16:56.254
Yeah.
00:16:56.254 --> 00:17:04.413
There's no neutrality in the work that we do, and if we are saying that we're trying to be neutral, we're actually being oppressive by saying that we are neutral.
00:17:04.564 --> 00:17:16.384
There is all, there's an irony in saying that we should, we should be, or we are neutral if anyone says that we're actually being oppressive because we can't be neutral in our identity or in our position.
00:17:16.923 --> 00:17:19.114
There's no such thing as nut neutrality in the room.
00:17:19.894 --> 00:17:30.544
Um, so, and, and that's why the work, that's one of the problems of why working with diversity is an oppressive term because it sets up this, this oppressive dynamic.
00:17:30.844 --> 00:17:33.334
It others, the client as being diverse and different.
00:17:33.663 --> 00:17:43.953
And we then take up an incredibly oppress, oppress, oppressive position and an incredibly privileged position of saying then that we are neutral.
00:17:44.449 --> 00:17:47.898
We have, um, normalized, we've made ourselves normative.
00:17:48.138 --> 00:18:00.288
I mean, just, I mean, how egotistical, how, how, um, power driven is that, that it's such, it's so driven by being the oppressor and having those supremist qualities.
00:18:00.739 --> 00:18:06.469
Um, so yeah, so that is a very brief deconstruction of working with diversity.
00:18:06.903 --> 00:18:07.324
Yeah.
00:18:07.388 --> 00:18:11.763
And, and obviously within the book, you know, it, it explains that Yes.
00:18:12.003 --> 00:18:16.384
Model, um, um, you know, which as my has already said, it's not just text.
00:18:16.384 --> 00:18:20.223
You know, this is quite a accessible book for people.
00:18:20.284 --> 00:18:24.814
Um, what would be your biggest hope?
00:18:25.144 --> 00:18:28.624
I mean, the book's been out, um, for quite a, quite a while now.
00:18:28.624 --> 00:18:29.278
Was it last summer?
00:18:29.278 --> 00:18:31.203
Yeah, last July it came out.
00:18:31.209 --> 00:18:31.398
Yeah.
00:18:32.209 --> 00:18:36.048
So, I dunno what you've seen, um, what you've heard from people.
00:18:36.048 --> 00:18:39.528
What, but what's been, what was your biggest hope for this book?
00:18:40.703 --> 00:18:57.439
I, I think my biggest hope was that the best way I can describe it is that it shifted the needle in that if, if we have been so entrenched in working with diversity and an incredibly.
00:18:58.203 --> 00:19:10.834
Normative position actually of thinking about working with diversity and we would, we took that as standard on training curriculums and in trainings and, and the concept of it.
00:19:11.314 --> 00:19:24.513
What I wanted to do with the book was hoping that it would nudge the needle slightly over into working within diversity and understanding truly and fully what anti-oppressive practice actually means.
00:19:25.503 --> 00:19:28.098
And, and they are, and they are mutually exclusive.
00:19:28.098 --> 00:19:31.909
Like you cannot say, oh, I'm anti-oppressive and I work with diversity.
00:19:32.509 --> 00:19:34.608
The two, the two are mutually exclusive.
00:19:34.608 --> 00:19:49.519
So for me it was about can this book nudge that needle into getting people to really take stock of how things have been taught previously and traditionally about the concept of diversity.
00:19:50.449 --> 00:19:56.749
Because I just don't think it's ever actually been deconstructed or questioned or challenged in such a way before.
00:19:57.259 --> 00:19:57.469
Mm-hmm.
00:19:57.949 --> 00:20:02.328
Um, and so yeah, my hope was that it noticed the needle, and I think it has done that to a degree.
00:20:02.778 --> 00:20:03.078
Yeah.
00:20:03.169 --> 00:20:03.739
Good stuff.
00:20:03.739 --> 00:20:12.949
Well, I, I always see that you are, you are going places and kind of doing workshops and doing teaching and, um, um, you know, I guess, um.
00:20:13.413 --> 00:20:17.433
Uh, you and I, we talk sometimes about how we've, we've had quite a lot in common.
00:20:17.433 --> 00:20:19.534
I mean, we're both X book sellers.
00:20:19.594 --> 00:20:28.743
Um, but aside from from that, you know, uh, we've both kind of been internal in a membership body, um, as volunteers.
00:20:28.804 --> 00:20:32.134
Um, we've, we've both done teaching and things like that.
00:20:32.134 --> 00:20:32.144
Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.493 --> 00:20:39.844
And I think we both agree that there's a lot of work to be done in our profession on this stuff.
00:20:39.874 --> 00:20:40.713
Um, yes.
00:20:42.094 --> 00:20:46.058
Do you, do you have hope that things can.
00:20:47.554 --> 00:20:47.973
Improve.
00:20:47.973 --> 00:21:06.634
I mean, obviously you, you mainly, um, uh, write and talk about, you know, race, ethnicity, faith, but you, you know, your, this book, it does, it does take, you know, a broader view of, um, um, you know, working within all forms of diversity.
00:21:06.963 --> 00:21:07.054
Mm-hmm.
00:21:07.203 --> 00:21:11.074
Um, but yeah, how, how hopeful are you that things can change?
00:21:11.703 --> 00:21:13.953
Yeah, I, I am hopeful.
00:21:14.199 --> 00:21:24.364
I, I still think though, if I was to go back to that kinda metaphor of nudging the needle, I, I, I, I, I think we yet to get to the point where, where we haven't yet got to the tipping point of it.
00:21:24.423 --> 00:21:26.854
Like we still need to work hard to keep nudging it.
00:21:27.453 --> 00:21:31.534
But I do think that continued efforts to.
00:21:31.999 --> 00:21:43.068
Continue to work, you know, between us collectively talk about issues around social justice, to talk about anti-oppressive practice and to recognize that that happens across all levels of the profession.
00:21:43.278 --> 00:21:56.118
I think if we continue to challenge that, hopefully we will get to the point where it's that tipping point where then, okay, now that becomes, um, the more common practice.
00:21:57.138 --> 00:22:18.318
Right now, it feels like in order to say you are anti-oppressive, in order to say that, yes, I do work around social justice and that I work within diversity, it feels like it ha, it needs to be a very intentional and very proactive stance to take against the norm, if that makes sense.
00:22:18.739 --> 00:22:25.159
But I'm hoping that actually in time, that becomes the norm itself because actually we think about anti-oppressive practice.
00:22:25.864 --> 00:22:27.963
That for me is actually ethical working.
00:22:27.963 --> 00:22:37.804
If we look at the ethical frameworks across all professional bodies, actually working within diversity and anti-oppressive practice is to be working ethically and.
00:22:38.884 --> 00:22:44.134
It's not to say that anybody that doesn't agree with anti-oppressive practice is not being ethical.
00:22:44.314 --> 00:22:52.503
I think it's about understanding where there already are commonalities between them, where there are already links between ethical working and anti-oppressive practice.
00:22:52.683 --> 00:23:05.584
Like I said, it, it's just more work needs to be to kind of get into that tipping point where then it starts to happen and like the domino effect of it being rolled out across all training courses and in all ethical frameworks.
00:23:06.544 --> 00:23:07.233
Definitely.
00:23:07.233 --> 00:23:07.953
Definitely.
00:23:08.284 --> 00:23:08.703
Yeah.
00:23:08.703 --> 00:23:12.183
Um, that is, that is an interesting point actually.
00:23:12.183 --> 00:23:18.693
And yeah, that's probably my dream as well, that it's just, you know, you're not like over there.
00:23:19.203 --> 00:23:19.384
Yes.
00:23:20.163 --> 00:23:24.074
You know, uh, and, and I think maybe part of that is.
00:23:25.398 --> 00:23:27.828
Learning to have difficult conversations.
00:23:27.858 --> 00:23:27.949
Yes.
00:23:27.949 --> 00:23:32.209
Because you know, all of us, and particularly when we think about ethics mm-hmm.
00:23:32.269 --> 00:23:34.669
Ethics is not a black and white right and wrong.
00:23:34.939 --> 00:23:37.398
It's being able to look at the nuances Yes.
00:23:37.398 --> 00:23:38.838
And look at what's going on.
00:23:39.078 --> 00:23:39.169
Yes.
00:23:39.169 --> 00:23:40.669
And then to do that, uh.
00:23:41.013 --> 00:23:41.253
Yeah.
00:23:41.253 --> 00:23:46.324
Things need to be, obviously not client work, but you know, on a broader scale, things need to be talked about.
00:23:46.324 --> 00:23:46.413
Yes.
00:23:46.653 --> 00:23:55.203
Um, and like you and I, you know, we've known each other since 2019 and we've probably had a couple of difficult conversations, um, between us.
00:23:55.354 --> 00:23:55.534
Yeah.
00:23:55.534 --> 00:23:56.943
You know, and it just feels.
00:23:57.604 --> 00:23:58.713
Actually so important.
00:23:58.713 --> 00:24:03.364
That is part of the work and that is part of working out together collectively.
00:24:03.634 --> 00:24:04.624
Absolutely.
00:24:04.624 --> 00:24:05.013
Forward.
00:24:05.104 --> 00:24:05.584
Yeah.
00:24:05.584 --> 00:24:09.304
All of this is about collective collaboration, co-production.
00:24:09.304 --> 00:24:16.564
It's about doing the work together, and again, it's about recognizing that the profession itself doesn't have a fixed endpoint.
00:24:17.449 --> 00:24:19.729
The profession itself is an emergent process.
00:24:20.179 --> 00:24:24.469
So the profession reflects the work we do with clients and with supervisees.
00:24:24.769 --> 00:24:36.048
It evolves and changes over time, and I think the reason why it feels like we have to keep pushing until we get to that tipping point is because we have to offer something.
00:24:37.114 --> 00:24:39.124
That feels understandable.
00:24:39.124 --> 00:24:46.683
We have to offer frameworks and models and most importantly language that people really understand why we are now changing the language.
00:24:46.923 --> 00:24:47.709
Like there's no point in me saying.
00:24:48.469 --> 00:25:00.318
We now just need to be using the term working within diversity if people don't understand why or equally, the other big kind of pivot I make in the book is switching from cultural competence to cultural attunement.
00:25:00.949 --> 00:25:03.378
Now it's all very well for people to say.
00:25:03.723 --> 00:25:04.804
Um, oh yeah.
00:25:04.804 --> 00:25:14.433
I'm now going to, I'm now going to work, as you know, as a culturally attuned counselor, but people are not really going to embrace it unless they know why you need to pivot away from competency.
00:25:14.943 --> 00:25:31.413
But when certain languages and concepts are so embedded and entrenched in our trainings and and profession, it just takes that little bit longer for pe, for the word to be spread, literally for the word to be spread, for people to recognize that we are now challenging certain.
00:25:31.878 --> 00:25:35.449
Said, certain embedded and entre and entrenched languages or concepts.
00:25:35.838 --> 00:25:37.729
So something like cultural competency.
00:25:37.729 --> 00:25:53.419
We are, we are, I think we are moving away from, some of us have absolutely moved away from it wholeheartedly like I have, but I'm starting to see more and more people, more and more practitioners going, oh, I get why we need to change the language.
00:25:53.749 --> 00:25:58.354
Because it isn't just about changing a word, it's about changing them relationally.
00:25:58.459 --> 00:26:00.439
How we then work with our clients.
00:26:00.798 --> 00:26:01.278
Mm-hmm.
00:26:01.624 --> 00:26:01.894
Yeah.
00:26:02.193 --> 00:26:02.463
Yeah.
00:26:02.884 --> 00:26:03.663
And language.
00:26:04.294 --> 00:26:10.203
Um, well, the whole point of language is so that we understand things.
00:26:10.534 --> 00:26:10.653
Yeah.
00:26:10.653 --> 00:26:20.824
I've thought about this a lot, uh, this past year because I think it's very easy for us as people to get stuck on certain words, certain phrases.
00:26:21.189 --> 00:26:21.608
Mm-hmm.
00:26:21.689 --> 00:26:28.294
Um, and even if we might actually then involve in our thinking, we might still be using the same terminology.
00:26:28.294 --> 00:26:30.634
So this feels like a really important point.
00:26:30.979 --> 00:26:31.489
Yes.
00:26:31.669 --> 00:26:38.179
And, and that's why, and actually that's, that's the starting point, point with working within diversity.
00:26:38.388 --> 00:26:43.818
People go, it's just a change of a word, but that just a change.
00:26:43.818 --> 00:26:47.719
And I use that word intentionally just by change a word.
00:26:47.959 --> 00:26:54.243
We dramatically and drastically forever change how we work with clients and supervisees and with students.
00:26:55.308 --> 00:26:57.318
And I'm like, well, that's the power of language.
00:26:57.528 --> 00:27:18.288
And that's why we have to be so mindful of the language we use and the, and the words we give to concepts or the words we give to, um, the processes, pr, um, practices and concepts that we use within our modalities, because it's about really understanding what does that word actually mean.
00:27:19.413 --> 00:27:20.374
There is a big difference.
00:27:20.374 --> 00:27:37.953
For example, there's a big difference between saying that I'm, I'm culturally competent, versus I am, I try to be culturally attuned, or I offer cultural attunements to my clients because one is about the first one, competence is about cognitive knowledge, skills, and understanding.
00:27:38.433 --> 00:27:40.294
Nothing to do about relationship with client.
00:27:40.864 --> 00:27:46.354
Cultural attunement for me is all about relational, relational work and being relational with my client.
00:27:46.653 --> 00:27:55.713
And between those two, I know which one for me is going to be a better outcome for my work and actually which one is going to be better effective use within my practice as well.
00:27:55.953 --> 00:27:59.733
And the one that offers an equality and anti-oppressive relationship.
00:28:00.273 --> 00:28:01.594
Mm-hmm.
00:28:01.595 --> 00:28:01.605
Yeah.
00:28:01.669 --> 00:28:02.598
Yeah, definitely.
00:28:04.189 --> 00:28:08.959
So, um, are you able to say what you are working on next?
00:28:08.959 --> 00:28:14.058
Do you want to, or, uh, secrets going on, but what, what can I say?
00:28:14.778 --> 00:28:18.409
So, I, I've actually currently got two different book projects on the go at the moment.
00:28:18.648 --> 00:28:22.413
Um, one, um, what can I say about each?
00:28:22.413 --> 00:28:27.348
So one of them, it's, I'm editing a book, so I have got other, um.
00:28:28.413 --> 00:28:37.804
They are all, um, practitioners of color and it's specifically focusing on tutors of color and I'm editing a book on that.
00:28:37.834 --> 00:28:42.963
And so we are right at the moment in the stage of, um, contributors writing their chapters.
00:28:43.324 --> 00:28:49.713
Um, so that's the book that I'm currently well going to be editing once those chapters have been submitted, but that's the book I'm editing.
00:28:50.253 --> 00:28:50.943
Um.
00:28:51.394 --> 00:28:53.703
So that will, I'll be working on that this year.
00:28:54.094 --> 00:29:12.153
And then simultaneously, uh, I'm also now working on, in my mind, what is book two, so my own, um, my next book, which is going to, um, so in working within Diversity, um, one of the final chapters that, um, I'm actually really passionate about is anti-oppressive self-care.
00:29:12.963 --> 00:29:16.923
And so book two is going to be.
00:29:17.574 --> 00:29:26.064
Building upon that concept, and it's specifically going to be for Muslim clients and Muslim audience.
00:29:26.094 --> 00:29:35.929
Having said that, though, the content's applicable to anybody, however, I'm placing that within, um, or referencing certain Islamic.
00:29:36.888 --> 00:29:39.979
Knowledge and understandings and con and contexts.
00:29:40.219 --> 00:29:47.838
However, what I'm actually gonna be talking about in terms of self care and wellbeing is going to be applicable to everybody.
00:29:47.989 --> 00:29:48.048
Wow.
00:29:48.919 --> 00:29:49.848
So that's book two.
00:29:50.749 --> 00:29:51.439
Wow.
00:29:51.439 --> 00:29:53.479
Well, you are a busy person.
00:29:54.169 --> 00:29:54.229
Yeah.
00:29:54.858 --> 00:29:58.489
Um, both those books sound absolutely wonderful though.
00:29:58.699 --> 00:30:02.598
Um, I was just thinking, um, I mentioned training earlier.
00:30:02.719 --> 00:30:02.749
Mm.
00:30:03.318 --> 00:30:06.078
So that one that you are editing, um, yes.
00:30:06.469 --> 00:30:10.219
I'd be really interested'cause I think there's a lot of, um, a lot of work.
00:30:10.249 --> 00:30:17.094
I mean, see, I dunno the ins and outs of it, but there's a lot of work to be, to be done and things to be thought about in the training field.
00:30:17.898 --> 00:30:19.249
Yes, absolutely.
00:30:19.278 --> 00:30:27.769
And for me with that, with the, with the edited book that that's inviting tutors of color to write, um, that, that are currently writing it.
00:30:28.189 --> 00:30:35.598
Um, for me it was really important that tutors of color have a platform not only to share the amazing work between them that they all do.
00:30:36.179 --> 00:30:49.378
Also to platform and to highlight the experiences of tutors of color, having been a tutor of color, myself and I continue to teach in terms of delivering trainings and workshops and and such.
00:30:50.578 --> 00:30:53.219
That experience needs to be captured.
00:30:53.219 --> 00:31:00.659
That experience needs to be shared and understood so that tutors of color can be better supported.
00:31:01.729 --> 00:31:07.969
And can be better understood in terms of their lived experience of being a tutor of color.
00:31:08.328 --> 00:31:17.479
Because as, as, really what we've been saying, kind of this, this whole interview is, it isn't just about the work we do with clients, but actually the profession itself is political.
00:31:18.078 --> 00:31:20.989
And cultural and social and historical.
00:31:21.138 --> 00:31:23.479
It has all of these layers and context to it.
00:31:23.719 --> 00:31:33.499
So it's not just about thinking about just the client, it is thinking about as practitioners and all the different roles we might have in our portfolio working.
00:31:33.888 --> 00:31:39.019
Actually, it's to acknowledge that we then have different experiences in each of those roles.
00:31:39.019 --> 00:31:39.108
Mm-hmm.
00:31:40.219 --> 00:31:41.804
Yeah, I think that's just so important to highlight.
00:31:42.663 --> 00:31:43.624
Really, really?
00:31:43.624 --> 00:31:44.044
Yeah.
00:31:44.104 --> 00:31:44.253
Yeah.
00:31:44.253 --> 00:31:46.953
Well, I'm gonna, I'm gonna look forward to, to reading that.
00:31:47.314 --> 00:31:53.763
Um, and the second one, um, so, uh, now let me see if I can get the acronym right.
00:31:53.794 --> 00:31:55.324
M-C-A-P-N.
00:31:55.324 --> 00:31:55.743
Is that yours?
00:31:55.743 --> 00:31:56.044
Yes.
00:31:56.229 --> 00:31:56.449
Yes.
00:31:58.324 --> 00:32:03.423
Um, so how, how might, um, Muslim therapists, um.
00:32:03.844 --> 00:32:06.814
Find out about that organization.
00:32:06.814 --> 00:32:09.483
And is there anything you'd like to say about that while you're here?
00:32:09.483 --> 00:32:16.233
Yeah, so yeah, well, really briefly, um, the M-C-A-P-N, the Muslim Council and Psychotherapist Network, two aims.
00:32:16.233 --> 00:32:26.403
One is to absolutely support Muslim counselors, therapists, and psychologists, and they can be either in training, so if as long as you're doing like in that minimum level four, as long as you are in core training.
00:32:26.979 --> 00:32:34.689
Um, or post qualification training, um, or you're qualified and registered with a professional body, you can then join the network.
00:32:34.959 --> 00:32:39.548
And we offer lots of support to practitioners such as we have a peer CPD program.
00:32:40.088 --> 00:32:47.019
Um, we have a peer supervision, um, group that meets monthly and you can, it's like a drop in, like not quite.
00:32:47.019 --> 00:32:49.118
Yeah, you can come to any one you want each month.
00:32:49.568 --> 00:32:50.199
Um.
00:32:50.824 --> 00:32:52.743
And then we have like our members WhatsApp group.
00:32:52.894 --> 00:32:59.344
So lots of ways to connect and to be supported and resourced through either your training or once post qualification.
00:32:59.673 --> 00:33:05.074
And of course then the network has its own, um, counseling directory and supervision directory.
00:33:05.344 --> 00:33:12.423
So that's again, is then the kinda the second aim of the network, which then is about connecting practitioners to Muslim clients and communities.
00:33:12.759 --> 00:33:20.199
So for the vast majority of our members, they are in private practice because they want to be working within their own communities.
00:33:20.499 --> 00:33:29.378
And so the counseling directory and supervision directory were just, um, really obvious ways just to connect all of that work together.
00:33:29.858 --> 00:33:30.848
Um, so.
00:33:31.064 --> 00:33:33.824
Yeah, so you don't have to be in private practice to join the network.
00:33:34.064 --> 00:33:36.794
You can join the network and gain all the other benefits as well.
00:33:37.064 --> 00:33:42.824
But details of all of that are on the M-C-A-P-N website, which is very simply mcpn.co uk.
00:33:43.094 --> 00:33:47.443
And we're all over our social medias as well, so you can Google and find us very easily.
00:33:48.034 --> 00:33:48.844
Great stuff.
00:33:48.933 --> 00:33:53.673
Well, hopefully you'll, you'll gain some, you'll gain some members from people watching this.
00:33:53.703 --> 00:33:55.354
Um, yeah.
00:33:55.354 --> 00:34:00.513
So is there anything we haven't talked about that you would really, really like to say?
00:34:00.753 --> 00:34:02.644
Hold the book up whilst you are answering Yeah.
00:34:03.003 --> 00:34:04.203
So people can remember.
00:34:04.568 --> 00:34:04.689
I,
00:34:04.693 --> 00:34:11.284
I think the main thing for me is that with this book, it's an invitation to readers to engage in a topic that.
00:34:12.184 --> 00:34:26.253
If you haven't come across thinking about anti-oppressive practice or working within diversity before, I'm really hoping that with this book, it's an invitation to gently guide you through what this topic and theme is.
00:34:26.643 --> 00:34:38.764
The biggest intention for me, like you said earlier, Caz, it was about making something that can feel incredibly overwhelming and scary and quite fearful to want to kind of dip your toes in.
00:34:39.603 --> 00:34:44.704
I'm kind of taking you guide in, guiding you through that very kindly and gently.
00:34:45.123 --> 00:34:55.954
And I hope then people see this book as a resource to go to, to gently support them in their learning, growth and development in becoming anti-oppressive practitioners.
00:34:56.523 --> 00:34:56.914
Yeah.
00:34:57.903 --> 00:34:58.264
Brilliant.
00:34:58.264 --> 00:35:03.123
Um, well folks, I hope you've enjoyed our chat today.
00:35:03.184 --> 00:35:05.324
Um, I want to thank you so much, Myira.
00:35:05.344 --> 00:35:06.094
I know your.
00:35:06.648 --> 00:35:07.668
Really busy.
00:35:07.728 --> 00:35:09.918
I really do know how super busy you are.
00:35:09.918 --> 00:35:13.699
So, um, it's great to have you here at Therapist Connect.
00:35:13.728 --> 00:35:17.778
Um, so thank you for giving your time and for writing such a wonderful book.
00:35:17.778 --> 00:35:24.018
I'm gonna look forward to, um, viewing, um, yeah, all the work that you've got coming up and uh, yeah.
00:35:24.228 --> 00:35:24.768
Thank you.
00:35:25.369 --> 00:35:25.938
Thanks Cazs.
