Rob McConnell Interviews - LISA STORY - Neice of the Infamous D. B. COOPER

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Welcome to the exisode, a place where fact is fiction
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and fiction is reality. Now here's your host, Robconnell.
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It was a.
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Cold November day, Flight three oh five took flight a
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man in a suit in the cabin's low light, with
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a briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand. He
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passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said this,
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saying a game. There's a bomb in this case land
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in Seeatt'll do it quiet, no chase.
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He asked for some cash, she.
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For parachutes too, then vanished in darkness, like ghosts always do.
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He said this same game, and there's.
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A bomb in this case land in Seeatt'll do it quiet,
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no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
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then vanished in darkness like ghosts always do. Two hundred
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grand in a knapsack type. He stepped from the stairs
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and was gone in the night. Nobody, no answers, no
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trail to be found, just myths. Him Pinezos with fade
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in his hands. Was he a soldier or roag or
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a man on the run, a master illusion or just
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chasing fun? If we I hunted but never could see
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the face of the outlaw who dropped from the breed.
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He said, this same brain, there's a bomb in this
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case landed Seattle, Do quiet, no chase?
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Did you live free?
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Still below the clouds of the North where the lost
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legends go. Some say he made it and lives with
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a name.
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Some say he.
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Perished and vanished in rain. But Lisa remembers the Clinton,
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his eye, the secret.
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Carrying the man who at blood.
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Now decades have passed, but the tail still remains of
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a man with a purpose who slipped through the chains.
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No finger prints left, no story complete, just and goes
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of boots in the Hargh mountainous sleep. Now decades have passed,
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but the tail still remains of a man and the
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purpose who slipped through the chains. No finger prints left,
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no story complete, Just that goes of boots in the
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high Mountain sleep. Now decades have passed, but the tail
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still remains of a man with a purpose who slipped
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through the chain. No fingerprints left, no story clean into
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the arms of the Secrets Week.
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Welcome to the Xon. I'm Rob McConnell. For the next
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two two hours. How's that so Friday night? I want
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to share with you for a couple of hours here
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from our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada,
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which means we're on tonight from ten pm until midnight.
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If you'd like to send me an email, exonredex, onradiotv
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dot com, on all social media sites, xone Radio TV,
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and we're coming to you tonight around the world on
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the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, xone Broadcast Network,
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and your hometown radio twelve twenty that's Classic twelve twenty
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c FAJAM in St. Catherines, Ontario, streaming us on Classic
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twelve twenty dot CA. All right, tonight on the xone
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Radio Show. This first hour, we dive into one of
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the most enduring unsolved American mysteries in American history, that
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is the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest one one
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Flight three five by the mysterious figure known only as
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D B. Cooper. But tonight we're just not going to
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reconstruct the tale. We're actually speaking to someone who has
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a very personal connection to the legend. Joining us is
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Lisa's story. The niece of the men, she says, was
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d V. Cooper. Could she hold the missing link to
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one of the FBI's most baffling cases. Let's find out.
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Extonation Lisa, welcome back to the exone.
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Hi, thanks Ron, and I love the note the song intro.
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I hit all the high notes of the crime.
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Yeah, we'll send a copy of it to you. Yeah,
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all right, Lisa, can you start by telling our audience
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that has grown substantially since you were last with us,
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who your uncle was and how you first came to
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believe he was dB Cooper.
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Right, So, my uncle's name was Walter Recca, and he
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had been you know, Special Forces Army Airborne Air Force
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Pair Rescue Hermie intelligence and had applied to the CIA
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but was denied because while he was going through the
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background check and this is during the time in the
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sixties where you know, we were in the height of
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the Cold War, and he spoke oh yeah, Polish and Russian, right,
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So he took the Army intelligence test. But in the
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meantime he also was a bit of a hothead. He
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was very brave and very patriotic, but.
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He was a hothead.
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So he shot up somebody's car when they went move
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it and he was rejected. Right, So I knew about
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some of his crimes, and you know family folklore that
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he had robbed Bob's Big Boy and shared some of
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the money with the pretty young lady who was the manager.
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And of course STEVIEE. Cooper did the same thing. So
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we had heard for years about you know. When we
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would visit, he would tell us stories about some of
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his diamond mine escapades and know a little bit about
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his military service things he was very proud of that
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he had gotten commendations for. But he never mentioned this
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particular crime or anything else. But he had been meeting
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up with some of his former paratroopers and Michigan Parachute
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team friends and around nineteen ninety nine two thousand on
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an annual basis, and they started sharing stories.
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With each other.
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They'd get together for the weekend, and one of his
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friends had been convinced since the night of the hijacking
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that Walt was the hijacker, and in fact, at the
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time he didn't know Walt was living in Washington working
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for a company that had a lot of paramilitary contracts
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with the CIA, so he thought it might be Walt
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because Walt for years had talked about it's stupid to
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rob a bank and then asked for a car to
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the air airport and then an airplane to go out
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of the country. Just rob the airplane and jump out
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of it.
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That made sense.
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So he had talked about.
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Yeah, right, you know, you kind of cut down the
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middle man.
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So he had talked about that for years.
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So when it happened, a couple of their other Michigan
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parachute friends called up Carl and said, what.
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Did Pika do?
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Now?
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Well, his original name was Pica, so he.
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But they thought it was him when they started meeting
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up again. His buddy Carl just kept pressing him, saying,
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you're dB Cooper, You're dB Cooper, and he's like, I'm not,
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I'm not. But after a couple of years, Walt nearly
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died of an illness, and then he told Carl, look,
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I want to tell you everything because I don't want
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to I don't want to lie to you, but also
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I think somebody should know. And so then he started
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sharing information and Carl talked to him for quite some
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time and did several drafts of the book, and Carl
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sent me those manuscripts. Carl and I had gotten to
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know each other. He became like an uncle to me
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as well, and he sent me one of the manuscripts
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and hint it talked about the DBI Cooper hijacking, and
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so Walt knew Carl and I were talking about it,
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but every time we'd visit, I'd ask Walt about it
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and he would deny it until about twenty eleven, when
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a woman named Marla Cooper made national news saying that
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her uncle was d. B. Cooper. And my uncle thought
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it was ridiculous her story, and so he sent me
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a photocopy of her the article quoting her and said
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that would make Marla six years old a real live
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Nancy Drew. And then on the side he wrote, you'd
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be really proud of Uncle Walton why they never found fingerprints,
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And then there was another note on there about the
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tie coming from a thrift store. So this was twenty eleven.
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He had been talking to Carl, and Carl had been
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telling me about it and talking to me since two
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thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, and they had
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recorded their conversations in two thousand and eight two thousand
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and nine. A lot of the information and that recording
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was not public knowledge. Most people didn't know it, and
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even some of the books hadn't covered this information until
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they were released. The interviews with the crew were released
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in twenty twelve, so then I really started to think, Wow,
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this could be him. He had absolutely done quite a
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few crazy things in his life, so it made sense.
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And then his buddy Carl actually tracked down an eyewitness,
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which was really interesting.
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What kind of man was her uncle? Was he like?
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Was he, well, he must have been adventurous since he was,
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you know, doing all these things, you know, for the government.
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What was he like? Was he a kind of guy
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you could crawl upon his knee and tell him your problems.
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Was he a great family man?
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No, He's probably not somebody who would give you a
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shoulder to cry on, but he would be somebody'd help
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you hide.
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A body if he needed to do that.
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Jeez.
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Right, I mean he was a good friend, and he
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loved his friends, and he was very loyal to them,
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and they were very low to him. He grew up very,
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very poor in Detroit, in an area called the Cast Corridor,
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and he went to Julie Hall when he was nine
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and met a guy named Willard who ended up being
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his friend until they both died in their eighties. Right,
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I mean, he was that kind of friend you made
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a friend for life with him. He quit school, dropped
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out of school. His dad died when he was pretty young,
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and he dropped out at eighth grade.
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So he was.
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Very intelligent and he read a lot, but he was
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not well educated.
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Right.
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So my mom always said Walt could always get jobs,
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but he never liked the jobs he got, and he
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got he got into some trouble as a juvenile, and
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judge told him to join the military or go to jail,
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and he didn't want to go to jail, so he
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joined the Army paratroopers and from then on he had
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really joined and re enlisted several times. In fact, he
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was quite paydotic, and he joined the Air Force Pair
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of Rescue, which was a very special forces. They drop
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in behind enemy lines and rescue down to pilots and
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you know, bring either them back their body back or
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help them escape alive if they can. But he had
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written on the bottom, I am not a conscious objector right,
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because they're talking the nineteen sixties when a lot of
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people didn't want to serve, so he would volunteer for
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service and you know, was quite patriotic.
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Did Hey, Lisa, I hate to notice to you, but
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we've got to take a break right now and dex
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O Nation Lisa stories are very special guests. So this
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is the story of D. B. Cooper from his niece.
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We'll be back on the other side of this break ass.
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The xone continues with he is truly Rob McConnell from
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our broadcast center and studios in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada,
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and you're listening to us on your hometown radio Classic
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twelve twenty CFAJAM in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, streaming us
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at twelve twenty dot Classic twelve twenty dot CA.
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With the briefcase of secrets and a bourbon in hand,
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he passed a note softly. The hijack began. He said
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this saying a game. There's a bomb in this case
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Land in Seattle'll do it quiet, no chase. He asked
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for some cash, she for parachutes too, then vanished in
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darkness like ghosts always do.
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He said this same game, there's.
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A bomb in this case Land in Seattle'll do it quiet,
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no shakes. He asked for some cash and for parachutes too,
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then vanished in darkness like ghosts.
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In the twilight hush where.
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Shadows whisper below, a silver gleamm streaks across the sky,
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a glow with a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
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An echo of the wonders that from.
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Beyond t come celestial encount as the stars.
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Welcome back to the excell least the stories, my special guest,
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and we're talking about her uncle, the infamous Stevie Cooper. Sorry,
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we had to cut you a short to Lisa because
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of the break, but please continue.
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Sure.
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So, I think one thing though that we were talking
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about when because Walt grew up poor and dropped out
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of school, he had trouble getting good paying jobs and
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keeping them.
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So he took shortcuts.
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And you know, he always considered himself a Robin Hood
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kind of character.
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He tried to rob.
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From people who had money and share it with other people,
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so it made him feel better about himself. But he
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certainly had a Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde kind of persona.
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And you know, he always said that he could you know,
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he was very nice and personable, and he had good
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friends and he could converse with him and laugh. But
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when it came to doing something like you know, whether
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it was in service of his country or in a crime.
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He would be cold, you know, steel cold, and it was.
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He always said it was two personalities he could divorce.
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The words he used.
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Were divorced one personality from the other. So I think
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that that's probably true of a lot of people who
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maybe you know, go commit something horrible and then you know,
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go on with their life and pretend it never happened.
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So he had that side to.
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Him as well. Did he ever talk to you about
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his time in Vietnam.
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He didn't serve in Vietnam. He served in Korea. He
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was a little bit too old for Vietnam. He did,
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he served, but he was mostly in Germany, stationed in
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Germany because he's quite young. He was seventeen when he
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was recruited or joined, and then he was mostly after
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four years in Germany. His service in the US was based.
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In the US.
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However, he did volunteer and go. He was part of
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the Berlin Crisis and was on overseas for a month
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or six weeks and was on site in case one
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of our airmen were shot down. He was on the
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rescue squad.
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Oh when dbe Cooper passed away, did he ever admit
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to you or anyone in your family, I mean blood
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family that he in fact was Dbe Cooper.
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He did so besides the Marla Cooper letter, you know
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where he kind of hinted to it. I would keep
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asking him and he would deny it. And then in
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August twenty thirteen, he was really six. So Mom and
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I went out and he was like, pack up these things,
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take these files. And he had me go get an
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envelope that was on a secret compartment behind his desk,
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and he said, if you don't want those, send them.
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To Carl, but otherwise they should really.
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Stay in the family. And I didn't really look in
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the envelope, and he had me go look at He
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made me pack up a bunch of files with information
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that to really help me tell his story. But he
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also had me get an envelope and he said, can
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you go get that notarized in town. I'll sign it.
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You go get it notarized.
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And I'm like, well, that's not how it works, right,
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So you have to be there, and he goes, I
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don't know if I can make it to town. I said, well,
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he goes, read it and tell me what you think.
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So I start reading it and through their conversations Carl
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had typed up like a twelve page, fourteen page confession
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about I am dB Cooper, and it had the cover
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page where all the names he went by. He had
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a Canadian social Security number I don't know why, he
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had a Saudi Arabian social security number, and he had
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two or three US social Security numbers, and then one
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of the names was I have also gone by DBI
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Cooper Dan Cooper. And then the story, you know, the
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confession had the whole outline that this is what I did,
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this is how I did it, this is the person
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I met the night of the hijacking who gave my
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friend Don Brennan directions home, you know, to the where
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I was, and then helped me get home. So that
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and so then I started talking to him.
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I said, this is true. You're Dbie Cooper.
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And he said yes, And I'm like, why tell me
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now and he said because I'm dying. And I said,
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you'd been saying that for years and he goes, I
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mean it this time.
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And so we had this whole.
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Conversation and I asked him, I said, you know, aren't.
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You proud of your stuff? You got away with.
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Like the most one of the most infamous crimes in
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our country. And he thought furious, and he said, I
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didn't get away with nothing, and he said, I was identified,
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I was recruited for work overseas, and I did things
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that I figure I'm going to hell for. Like he
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just he assumed he didn't think the hijacking was a
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big deal.
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He didn't.
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He was very calm, He was very polite to everybody.
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He didn't hurt anybody. The insurance the way he said
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it was, you know, the insurance company paid the RAM
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and they had gotten paid over the years from Northwest
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Airlines for events like this.
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So it was just a service.
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And I you know, he didn't really think about the
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mental anguish he caused anybody, right, So, but what he
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said was what happened afterwards was far worse than the hijacking.
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And he didn't he didn't want me to think of
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him as.
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A hero or a folk hero. He thought that he.
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Had done some pretty bad things, but the hijacking in particular.
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I asked him why he did it, and he said,
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because he was so destitute by that point, he just
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thought he was better dead than poor.
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I'm real, listen, if I'm not mistaken that that affidavit
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00:20:42.880 --> 00:20:47.279
or the article that was why your uncle wanted to
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get notarized, that include the confession. Was that confession ever
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given to the FBI?
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It was so and it's so funny is that Today's
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00:20:57.839 --> 00:21:00.000
the day. I just got an email from the FBI
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00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:06.039
agent who sent it to the Portland FBI agent and
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she's like, how are you doing? Did anything ever come
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of your story and of you know, your your uncle's case,
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and it's and I haven't responded yet. So I had
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my mom and I we had a next door neighbor
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and she was one of the first female FBI agents
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in the country years ago, and she had come back
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to town. She had moved away and she was undercover.
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She had moved away, and she came back and Mom
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and I had dinner with her. Oh my goodness.
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It was probably like.
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Two years after my uncle died, in about a month
359
00:21:39.480 --> 00:21:42.880
or two before or after the FBI closed the case.
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And we told her everything. We showed her his US
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00:21:46.519 --> 00:21:50.519
Foreign Service IDs KGB I d he had. We showed
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her everything and told her the whole story. And I
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00:21:54.960 --> 00:21:59.920
asked if she could submit his confession to the FBI,
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00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:03.759
and she said, sure, I can send it and she was,
365
00:22:03.799 --> 00:22:07.839
I'm retired now, but it is professional courtesy for one
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agent to you know, take seriously another agent's tip. So
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00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:17.160
she emailed the FBI agent in Portland and said, here
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is a confession of somebody, a relative of a friend
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of mine. They are normal people, They are not crazy,
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you know, she kind of, I mean, I'm paraphrasing what
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00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.359
she said. She goes, can you please look at this?
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They'd really, you know, they would just like you to
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look at it and see what you think. He sent
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00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:37.000
it back on read and said they would close the case,
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or they were going to close the case, and unless
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00:22:39.480 --> 00:22:41.880
I could produce or my mom could produce one of
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the twenty dollars bills or the parachute, he didn't want
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00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.759
to read it or hear about it. And we just
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00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:50.839
she thought that was very odd. She said, it's just
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00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:57.079
professional courtesy that you take another agent's input and give
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00:22:57.119 --> 00:23:01.039
it at least a cursory look. And so, yeah, so
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00:23:01.079 --> 00:23:04.839
they ignored it. There was another time too that Carl
383
00:23:05.680 --> 00:23:11.079
had snuck some tissues from Walt and had them had
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DNA done on them, Yeah, without Walt's knowledge, and he
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00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:18.359
went to an attorney where he lived in Florida, and
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00:23:18.400 --> 00:23:22.319
he didn't tell the attorney Walt's name, and he didn't
387
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tell him, you know, the name of the accomplice who
388
00:23:26.160 --> 00:23:28.759
picked Walts up that night, who was quite a character,
389
00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:31.759
and who the FBI interviewed as a suspect.
390
00:23:32.759 --> 00:23:33.680
But he just he.
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Said, you know, here's this. He did the DNA report himself.
392
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He didn't send the tissues in right, so I don't
393
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:43.480
know where he got the DNA done. And the attorney
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00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:47.319
sent it to the FBI in Portland and said, you know,
395
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:54.799
here's the story. Here is the the DNA sequence. And
396
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:57.640
the Portland agent said it doesn't match. But who was
397
00:23:57.640 --> 00:23:59.480
the name? What was the name of the person who
398
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:04.079
picked him up up? And Carl always thought that was
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00:24:04.119 --> 00:24:07.680
really weird because if you don't think it's the hijacker,
400
00:24:07.680 --> 00:24:09.319
why would you want to know who picked him up.
401
00:24:09.920 --> 00:24:13.640
But what was also interesting was that while we were
402
00:24:13.640 --> 00:24:16.240
waiting for the or while Carl was waiting for the
403
00:24:16.279 --> 00:24:20.480
FBI to respond to his attorney, Walt called him up
404
00:24:20.519 --> 00:24:23.119
and said, I can't believe you dna'ed me.
405
00:24:23.559 --> 00:24:25.160
What are you thinking?
406
00:24:25.799 --> 00:24:29.759
And Carl had never told Walt, but he had a
407
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.039
contact in the FBI that gave him the heads up
408
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.960
before his houses rated for another issue. And you know,
409
00:24:37.119 --> 00:24:40.160
after the hijacking, he was on the radar, so they
410
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.880
kept tabs on him. I'm not sure that's how much
411
00:24:43.920 --> 00:24:46.480
the FBI knew he was involved. I think it was
412
00:24:46.559 --> 00:24:49.559
more his intelligence work that happened afterwards.
413
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:50.119
Wow.
414
00:24:50.240 --> 00:24:53.359
So yeah, so we tried to notify the FBI. The
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00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.759
weren't interested and the one time. The other thing about
416
00:24:57.119 --> 00:24:59.839
what we're not sure about is according to the articles
417
00:24:59.839 --> 00:25:03.839
we bread and the FBI documents, they don't have full
418
00:25:03.880 --> 00:25:08.039
strands of DNA. They only have partial strands from three
419
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.960
different individuals. And when the hijacking happened, and they they
420
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:16.279
got rid of these cigarette butts that had sliva on it,
421
00:25:16.680 --> 00:25:18.799
and they never tested for blood type, even though they
422
00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:19.839
could have done that back then.
423
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:21.519
So they got rid of that with the.
424
00:25:21.480 --> 00:25:25.400
Best DNA and they just kept They got some DNA
425
00:25:25.440 --> 00:25:29.440
off the tie, the clip on tie, but partial DNA.
426
00:25:29.559 --> 00:25:31.759
And by the time they sent it in and it
427
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:34.839
was almost I think thirty years old, and it hadn't
428
00:25:34.880 --> 00:25:36.559
been stored. I don't know if it was stored in
429
00:25:36.599 --> 00:25:38.960
a refrigerator, I doubt it. I don't think the tie
430
00:25:39.000 --> 00:25:41.240
was stored in a refrigerator, so we don't even know
431
00:25:41.279 --> 00:25:46.680
if they actually have valid DNA to you know, find
432
00:25:46.759 --> 00:25:49.119
any suspect, you know, tied to any suspect.
433
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.599
With the fact that there was currency involved, couldn't the
434
00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:55.319
OUs Treasury Department get involved? They're part of the Secret
435
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:00.839
Service and all the other aspects of the investmentation because
436
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:03.480
the money was involved, and you had pretty good evidence
437
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.359
that you knew who the suspect was and that they
438
00:26:06.359 --> 00:26:07.960
could actually close the case.
439
00:26:09.920 --> 00:26:12.480
You know, I didn't really think about reaching out to
440
00:26:12.680 --> 00:26:15.599
the Secret Service, but I think I've done a lot
441
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:20.200
of Freedom of Information Act request, you know, especially too.
442
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:21.519
I'll give you an example.
443
00:26:21.640 --> 00:26:23.160
He's got this qgb ID.
444
00:26:23.319 --> 00:26:24.759
All right, why don't we do this? Why don't we
445
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.279
Why don't we do this? So I just looked at
446
00:26:27.319 --> 00:26:29.599
the clock. I've had about thirty seconds before I have
447
00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.079
to take a break, So let's continue this on the
448
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:36.799
other side. Fascinating conversation with the niece of the infamous
449
00:26:37.599 --> 00:26:41.119
dB Cooper. This is the x O and I'm Rob McConnell.
450
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:43.359
We're coming to you from our broadcast center in studios
451
00:26:43.799 --> 00:26:47.200
in Saint Catherine's, Ontario, Canada, and you're listening to us
452
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:50.359
on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network, x
453
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.559
oone Broadcast Network, and your hometown Radio Classic twelve twenty
454
00:26:54.599 --> 00:26:58.799
c FAJ Right here in St. Catherine's, Ontario, Canada. They
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00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:02.279
stream us in twenty four to threes, twenty five, three,
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00:27:02.359 --> 00:27:05.359
twenty six. Whatever, Well, they don't stream us, they eat.
457
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:11.960
They stream their entire wonderful musical all day programming. We'll
458
00:27:11.960 --> 00:27:14.839
be back on the other side. Whatever you do, don't
459
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:17.759
go away.
460
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:24.160
With a haunting helloady. The air begins to throw.
461
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:32.839
An echo the wonders that from beyond have come.
462
00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:39.720
Celestial encounter as the stars of the line, a tapestry
463
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:43.680
of wonders woven through space and time from the void
464
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:48.240
of darkness, A chorus six so bright.
465
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:56.039
The story is unfolding in the velvet night through the
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00:27:56.200 --> 00:27:58.519
gus of science.
467
00:28:24.559 --> 00:28:27.319
Welcome back every when Lisa Story's my special guest, and
468
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:30.799
we're talking this hour, Well, we're kind of diving into
469
00:28:30.920 --> 00:28:34.559
one of the most enduring and solved mysteries in American history,
470
00:28:35.359 --> 00:28:39.920
the nineteen seventy one hijacking of Northwest Oriyan Flight three
471
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:44.359
zero five by the mysterious figure known only as d V. Cooper.
472
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.440
But tonight we're just not recounting the tale exaanation. We're
473
00:28:48.480 --> 00:28:51.839
speaking with someone who has a personal connection to the legend.
474
00:28:52.319 --> 00:28:55.119
Joining us now is Lisa's story, the niece of the
475
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:56.519
man she says was d V.
476
00:28:56.680 --> 00:28:58.839
Cooper. Could she hold the.
477
00:28:59.160 --> 00:29:02.599
Missing link to the FBI's most baffling cases. Well, it
478
00:29:02.640 --> 00:29:07.400
seems that she has the entire story, including a confession,
479
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:10.599
but the FBI doesn't want to know anything about it
480
00:29:10.680 --> 00:29:14.359
because they just want close the case. Who knows more?
481
00:29:14.799 --> 00:29:18.079
All right, Lisa, what was it when you found out
482
00:29:18.160 --> 00:29:21.240
that the FBI were saying that's it, no matter what
483
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:22.720
you've got, we're closing in the case.
484
00:29:25.720 --> 00:29:29.160
I think I decided that I just do my own
485
00:29:29.200 --> 00:29:34.759
research and go through the files and it. I guess
486
00:29:34.759 --> 00:29:39.119
it just was disappointing. But at the same time, would
487
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:43.200
they even be able to even if they believed his story,
488
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:46.880
would there ever be enough hard evidence to physically tie
489
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:50.559
it to him that. I don't think the FBI was
490
00:29:50.599 --> 00:29:56.160
aware he was Cooper. I think that intelligence agencies knew
491
00:29:56.599 --> 00:29:57.920
because I think that's how.
492
00:29:57.759 --> 00:29:58.680
He was recruited.
493
00:29:59.039 --> 00:30:00.960
You know, at the time of the hijacking, he was
494
00:30:01.000 --> 00:30:06.160
working for a company named Vanell that was had CIA contracts,
495
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:09.960
but they were working on the construction of the third
496
00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:13.279
Powerhouse on the Grand Cooley Dam in Washington, and it
497
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:18.279
was they were hiring special forces guys like my uncle.
498
00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:22.559
And my uncle had met the recruiter, the CIA recruiter
499
00:30:22.640 --> 00:30:24.839
Phil and kept in contact with him and still got
500
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:27.759
him the job at Vnell. And he told them just
501
00:30:27.839 --> 00:30:31.400
hold tight, just keep working. We're working on these contracts
502
00:30:31.440 --> 00:30:34.960
in the Middle East. But it was taking a couple
503
00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:38.240
of years to get through the right process, right. But
504
00:30:38.799 --> 00:30:42.680
Vanell had special forces people. And this is one of
505
00:30:42.680 --> 00:30:44.960
the things my uncle did in the Middle East is
506
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:47.559
they trained the Saudi Arabian National Guard.
507
00:30:47.960 --> 00:30:50.680
They were also they protected.
508
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:54.799
The oil fields in Saudi and they also did things
509
00:30:54.839 --> 00:30:59.079
like respond to the Grand Mosque and Mecca siege. And
510
00:30:59.160 --> 00:31:02.000
my uncle said he was there as part of the
511
00:31:02.079 --> 00:31:05.319
Nell crew, and that's kind of a whole other story.
512
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:09.960
But anyway, he was working for Vanel And I'm just
513
00:31:10.160 --> 00:31:13.480
going to get sidetracked and excited.
514
00:31:13.039 --> 00:31:13.799
About this story.
515
00:31:13.839 --> 00:31:17.920
But anyway, and I'm sorry I lost my turney that
516
00:31:18.000 --> 00:31:19.680
thought what we were talking about, the.
517
00:31:21.839 --> 00:31:24.640
How he got you got me so involved in the
518
00:31:24.720 --> 00:31:27.079
story you were telling that I forgot about. My question
519
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:27.599
was hold on?
520
00:31:31.200 --> 00:31:34.240
I can't remember we get off on these side.
521
00:31:35.079 --> 00:31:37.759
Yeah, I think we were talking about shifting the investigation
522
00:31:37.839 --> 00:31:40.680
from one jurisdiction to another because of all the you know,
523
00:31:40.759 --> 00:31:42.880
all the all the case file that you had, You
524
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:46.759
had his confession, and yet the FBI didn't want to
525
00:31:46.759 --> 00:31:49.559
do anything about it, right.
526
00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:51.279
Okay, So that's where I was going with the Vanell
527
00:31:51.359 --> 00:31:52.799
story in the CIA contract.
528
00:31:53.319 --> 00:31:55.319
So what what Walt.
529
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:58.279
Said happened is, you know, he limped into a cafe
530
00:31:58.640 --> 00:32:02.480
with a broken leg. He was soaking wet, He had
531
00:32:02.519 --> 00:32:05.720
a pat you know, his raincoat wrapped around something under
532
00:32:05.720 --> 00:32:08.400
his arm, and there was a guy dressed in cowboy
533
00:32:08.400 --> 00:32:10.599
gear and had a guitar, and he said, hey, kid,
534
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:12.759
can you if I call my friend, can you give
535
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:17.359
him directions to where I am? And the guy said yeah,
536
00:32:17.400 --> 00:32:20.119
and so his friend Don Brennan picked him up. And
537
00:32:20.200 --> 00:32:23.200
Don also had CIA connections. Just a couple of years
538
00:32:23.279 --> 00:32:27.559
before Don was working, he was a smoke jumper and
539
00:32:27.599 --> 00:32:30.480
he and several other smoke jumpers were in Thailand on
540
00:32:30.559 --> 00:32:34.279
a CIA operation. Right And in fact, I think it
541
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:36.599
was Don and one of his other friends that told
542
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:41.960
my uncle about the CIA recruitment process in Elsinore, California,
543
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:43.799
which is how he met Phil, how he got the
544
00:32:43.880 --> 00:32:47.640
job with nnel So a couple months or four months
545
00:32:47.640 --> 00:32:53.279
after the hijacking. Walt had been destitute poor. Just eighteen
546
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.759
months before he had been evicted from a trailer because
547
00:32:55.799 --> 00:32:59.880
he couldn't afford sixty dollars a month rent, right, and
548
00:33:00.160 --> 00:33:02.160
now he paid cash for a down payment on a
549
00:33:02.200 --> 00:33:05.240
house and cash for the payments, which the guy who
550
00:33:05.279 --> 00:33:09.160
sold him the house went on video and you talked
551
00:33:09.160 --> 00:33:11.359
about his impressions and how polite he was and how
552
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:13.720
he paid cash and had no problem, and he paid
553
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:17.160
the house off in five years, going from super boor
554
00:33:17.279 --> 00:33:19.599
to all of a sudden, even when he still didn't
555
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.160
have a regular job. So he was on a job
556
00:33:22.200 --> 00:33:24.480
site and a couple iron workers came up to him
557
00:33:24.480 --> 00:33:26.079
and said, hey, do you want to go have a
558
00:33:26.079 --> 00:33:30.599
beer and talk. We're new here, and my uncle said sure.
559
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:33.680
He never turned down a free beer. So they went
560
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:37.119
to dinner and the guy is leaned forward and said,
561
00:33:37.160 --> 00:33:39.599
we know what you did. Do you want to go
562
00:33:39.640 --> 00:33:41.839
to jail and he said no, he goes, well, then
563
00:33:41.880 --> 00:33:44.240
you work for us and we will call you and
564
00:33:44.279 --> 00:33:47.279
they just laughed, right, And it's kind of similar to
565
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:48.000
you know.
566
00:33:48.119 --> 00:33:50.160
How you see these.
567
00:33:49.960 --> 00:33:52.599
Things happen in movies. It was very similar to that.
568
00:33:53.400 --> 00:33:55.119
And then they called him a couple of weeks later
569
00:33:55.759 --> 00:33:59.119
and he started going to Idaho for training. A lot
570
00:33:59.119 --> 00:34:01.680
of it was psychological and that type of thing, because
571
00:34:01.720 --> 00:34:04.680
he had the military training, he didn't need that, and
572
00:34:04.720 --> 00:34:08.800
he had the weapons training so and he had the
573
00:34:08.840 --> 00:34:09.880
parachute jump and.
574
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:11.159
All of that type of stuff.
575
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:15.159
So after that he was he started working overseas. So
576
00:34:15.239 --> 00:34:19.719
I think where the shifting investigation goes is. I don't
577
00:34:20.239 --> 00:34:25.199
think the FBI ever identified him, but they think they did.
578
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:30.840
The whatever intelligence units. He was working for, CIA contractors.
579
00:34:30.199 --> 00:34:30.599
All of that.
580
00:34:30.920 --> 00:34:33.880
He did quite a few jobs overseas, so I think
581
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.400
they knew he was a hijacker. That's why they approached him,
582
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:41.440
or somebody in Vanell figured it out and they recruited
583
00:34:41.480 --> 00:34:45.639
him through the CIA. The vice president of Vanel was
584
00:34:45.880 --> 00:34:50.920
a former CIA officer and OSS officer. And then it's
585
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:52.880
just you know, Don Brennan picked him up. He was
586
00:34:52.920 --> 00:34:55.800
a smoke jumper who worked for the CIA. One of
587
00:34:57.039 --> 00:35:00.199
whilst other good friends, Bob Sinclair, was in business with
588
00:35:00.280 --> 00:35:03.519
a guy named Jim Hall who was CIA and Dave
589
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.039
Bert who was interviewed by the FBI as a suspect
590
00:35:07.079 --> 00:35:09.440
and also was a smoke jumper. And then there was
591
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:12.159
a guy that Bob Sinclair was friends with and in
592
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:16.000
business with named Lyle Cameron. And Lyle was an FBI
593
00:35:16.280 --> 00:35:21.280
informant who contacted the FBI after the hijacking and said
594
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.719
he met a guy in Elson Or a few months
595
00:35:23.760 --> 00:35:26.760
before the hy jackiing who asked about can you jump
596
00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:29.639
out of the commercial airliner? And he said, sure if
597
00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:32.880
there's a side door that opens in or rear stairs.
598
00:35:33.440 --> 00:35:37.239
But the really interesting thing about Lyle is that he
599
00:35:37.360 --> 00:35:40.039
was the last person Jack Ruby spoke to on the
600
00:35:40.079 --> 00:35:44.280
telephone before Jack Ruby shot Lee Harvey else.
601
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.559
So wait, wait a second, Wait a second, a second year,
602
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.719
wait a second year. Are you tying in the the
603
00:35:52.480 --> 00:35:57.360
hijacking by DV Cooper into the Kennedy assassination somehow?
604
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:03.079
No, what I'm saying is he had these associations with
605
00:36:03.239 --> 00:36:07.559
all of these people who also had CIA or FBI informed,
606
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:09.920
you know what I mean, Like he was involved and
607
00:36:10.000 --> 00:36:15.760
hung with people that had all kinds of one step
608
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.280
away that I can have. I have heart sure involvement
609
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:22.679
in these other things, right Art Lucier was one of
610
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:25.719
his best friends in Michigan Parachute team members. Eight months
611
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.880
after the hijacking, Art was arrested with a guy named
612
00:36:28.880 --> 00:36:36.199
Barry Seal and a Gambino family ever wrote the cost
613
00:36:36.280 --> 00:36:41.719
of Yeah, so they Barry Seal was made famous by
614
00:36:41.719 --> 00:36:44.159
Tom Cruise and that movie American Maid from the Iran
615
00:36:44.239 --> 00:36:47.760
Contrast Scandal. But Art was with Barry when they were
616
00:36:48.039 --> 00:36:51.199
trying on a CIA plot to overthrow Castro and get
617
00:36:51.239 --> 00:36:55.320
explosives to people who were going to try to overthrow Castro.
618
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.360
His other guy, Ken Sissler, was a smoke jumper. Walt
619
00:37:01.400 --> 00:37:03.800
jumped with them several times of newspaper articles with their
620
00:37:03.880 --> 00:37:08.039
names together and stuff. He was CIA ops and Vietnam.
621
00:37:08.119 --> 00:37:09.960
He did mac V. He was in a mac V
622
00:37:10.159 --> 00:37:12.840
Saggi in it with a guy named Ted Brayden, who
623
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:15.800
a lot of people right now in the dB Cooper worldlike.
624
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:16.360
Is a suspect.
625
00:37:17.079 --> 00:37:20.760
But quite a few of these people from Don Dave
626
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:25.639
fred Bernowski, these smoke jumpers were all interviewed within days
627
00:37:25.639 --> 00:37:30.320
of the hijacking as suspects. And so I think it's
628
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:34.360
just so weird if you had one association with the CIA,
629
00:37:34.519 --> 00:37:38.480
but to have eight or nine people that you know personally.
630
00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:40.760
Involved.
631
00:37:40.280 --> 00:37:45.039
It just I think makes his story more realistic, besides
632
00:37:45.039 --> 00:37:47.960
the fact that I do have US Foreign Service identifications
633
00:37:47.960 --> 00:37:52.320
for him that are legitimate. I mean I researched and
634
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:54.679
made sure the names of the people who signed them
635
00:37:55.119 --> 00:37:58.000
were in office at that time. And I have his
636
00:37:58.199 --> 00:38:01.880
letter from the CIA telling him, thank you for your application,
637
00:38:02.119 --> 00:38:05.320
we can't use your skills right now. So I have
638
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:07.639
a heart evidence in addition to the things that he
639
00:38:07.719 --> 00:38:08.039
told me.
640
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:11.360
And he told Karl, Okay, you've got the letter of
641
00:38:11.400 --> 00:38:18.719
rejection by the CIA. But if he had been recruited
642
00:38:18.760 --> 00:38:23.280
at a later place in time for the CIA, wouldn't
643
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:25.920
there be documentation to that as well?
644
00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:28.119
Well?
645
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:31.400
He wasn't recruited as an agent, he or as an asset, right,
646
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:35.239
so he was a contractor, he wasn't he He had
647
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:39.679
applied to try to become, you know, to work for them,
648
00:38:39.840 --> 00:38:42.079
or maybe it was one of the crews that worked,
649
00:38:43.159 --> 00:38:46.719
you know, in Thailand for the CIA on some of
650
00:38:46.760 --> 00:38:52.079
those opts. But he didn't get recruited officially. But they
651
00:38:52.119 --> 00:38:54.760
did use a lot I mean during that timeframe, and
652
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:57.000
there's tons of books. I mean, I referenced it in
653
00:38:57.079 --> 00:39:01.639
my book the different newspaper articles and books where it
654
00:39:01.760 --> 00:39:06.559
talks about how the CIA used you know, third party
655
00:39:06.559 --> 00:39:09.519
contractors because they could hide what they were doing from
656
00:39:09.559 --> 00:39:10.480
Congress that way.
657
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:15.800
Plus they're disposable, they're disposable, and you know, one of
658
00:39:15.840 --> 00:39:18.239
the that's such a good point because when.
659
00:39:18.280 --> 00:39:22.719
Well retired, he had all of these names on his resume,
660
00:39:22.840 --> 00:39:25.239
and he had all of these identifications and did all
661
00:39:25.239 --> 00:39:27.119
of this work and put his life on the line.
662
00:39:27.559 --> 00:39:30.760
But there was no pension, right because you work for
663
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.519
every country a company for like one year or that's
664
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:36.559
your cover, and you do these things and you.
665
00:39:36.599 --> 00:39:37.360
Get paid cash.
666
00:39:37.360 --> 00:39:39.039
And he got paid a lot of money, and he
667
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:40.239
did invest some of it.
668
00:39:40.840 --> 00:39:41.800
But you have no.
669
00:39:41.840 --> 00:39:42.880
Pension, you can't.
670
00:39:43.159 --> 00:39:45.519
You just have your regular Social Security checked.
671
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:45.920
That's it.
672
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:49.159
I don't much. And I'll bet you their medical wasn't
673
00:39:49.159 --> 00:39:51.119
covered after they left the service either.
674
00:39:52.840 --> 00:39:57.159
Now, well, he because he had he did have veterans
675
00:39:57.239 --> 00:40:02.559
and oh yeah, yeah, because he had served officially in
676
00:40:04.039 --> 00:40:05.159
the military service.
677
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:11.760
But yeah, fascinating story. We've got one more segment. I'd
678
00:40:11.800 --> 00:40:14.400
love to get a lot more information out and I
679
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:15.920
want to thank you again for coming on the show.
680
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:17.559
It's all it's a great pleasure having you with us.
681
00:40:17.559 --> 00:40:20.480
Lisa, Yeah, thank you so much.
682
00:40:20.840 --> 00:40:23.119
All right, excellanation. If you'd like to find out more
683
00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:26.880
about Lisa dB Cooper, what is your Facebook page, Lisa.
684
00:40:28.199 --> 00:40:31.159
It's dB Cooper Story sto.
685
00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:36.320
Ry all one word, Yes, pretty much.
686
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:39.159
And I also had that book Better than then pour
687
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:43.039
out on Amazon that you know, kind of outlines all
688
00:40:43.079 --> 00:40:46.119
of this stuff with a lot of extensive footnotes.
689
00:40:47.159 --> 00:40:49.440
All right, Lisa and I will be back on the
690
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:53.440
other side of this very short break, and coming up
691
00:40:53.480 --> 00:40:56.679
after Lisa and I say so long in about fifteen
692
00:40:56.760 --> 00:40:59.880
minutes from now. Our number two of the X one
693
00:41:00.480 --> 00:41:04.920
starts for tonight and goes in right from eleven o'clock
694
00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:11.320
until midnight. All right, excellentation. Thesis story is my guest.
695
00:41:11.360 --> 00:41:14.239
We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D V. Cooper.
696
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:16.880
We'll be back on the other side of this break
697
00:41:17.159 --> 00:41:20.800
as we take another look at different ways of looking
698
00:41:20.840 --> 00:41:25.960
at this case. But I'll tell you something, I believe her.
699
00:41:26.280 --> 00:41:26.800
We'll be back.
700
00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:48.679
Don't go away.
701
00:42:10.639 --> 00:42:18.440
Some days I walk, some days I crawl. Some days
702
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:21.360
I can't feel much at all.
703
00:42:23.639 --> 00:42:31.599
My body's amaze that I try to read every step
704
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:39.079
forward a silent me. But I won't let this break
705
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:46.239
who I am. I've learned how to fight, learn how
706
00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:58.039
to stand. I may fall, stilverise through the pain, through.
707
00:42:57.679 --> 00:42:59.400
The tears in myn.
708
00:43:01.760 --> 00:43:05.480
This road is long, but is here.
709
00:43:06.000 --> 00:43:06.800
It's read.
710
00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:09.320
With every sun.
711
00:43:11.480 --> 00:43:16.119
I liveded fine.
712
00:43:17.320 --> 00:43:17.960
But what a.
713
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:23.599
Welcome back everyone. Lisa's story is my very special guest
714
00:43:23.679 --> 00:43:27.159
this hour. We're talking about her uncle, the infamous D. B.
715
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:27.719
Cooper.
716
00:43:31.599 --> 00:43:34.519
Since you've come out with your story, how does the
717
00:43:34.559 --> 00:43:38.559
mainstream media taking you? Are they supporting your story? Are
718
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:41.800
they trying to press law enforcement to find out how
719
00:43:41.800 --> 00:43:43.000
can they drop the case or.
720
00:43:45.280 --> 00:43:45.480
No?
721
00:43:45.599 --> 00:43:49.039
I think, you know, when it first came out and
722
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.800
we Carl published his book and the documentary that came
723
00:43:52.840 --> 00:43:56.960
out like in twenty sixteen, it did make national news,
724
00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.880
but from then we just really didn't put you know,
725
00:44:01.000 --> 00:44:03.519
I think we just let it. It made national news,
726
00:44:03.559 --> 00:44:07.159
but then you have these The FBI never came out.
727
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:10.639
We haven't really pursued or looked at other ways to
728
00:44:10.760 --> 00:44:14.159
have him looked at officially, and I think we just
729
00:44:14.239 --> 00:44:17.360
let it go. You know, Mom said, it's probably just
730
00:44:17.440 --> 00:44:22.199
best that nobody knows anyway, right, and just best nobody
731
00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:28.039
thinks it's him and so and I think in the forums,
732
00:44:28.079 --> 00:44:31.119
like there are a lot of different groups on Facebook
733
00:44:31.199 --> 00:44:37.280
and Reddit and different places, they discount his story because
734
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:43.920
when Carl Carl interviewed him and had the recording, when
735
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:46.480
they were coming out with a documentary, the producer of
736
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:51.599
that documentary hired a former Michigan State Police officer who
737
00:44:51.599 --> 00:44:54.880
had a private investigation firm. He's trained by the FBI
738
00:44:55.239 --> 00:44:58.559
in forensic linguistics, which is telling whether or not people
739
00:44:58.599 --> 00:45:02.639
are telling the truth or lying. And so he went
740
00:45:02.679 --> 00:45:07.159
through the recordings and the printed confession, the written confession.
741
00:45:07.679 --> 00:45:09.760
He talked to Carl, he talked to me, he talked
742
00:45:09.800 --> 00:45:13.119
to the eyewitness, Jeff o'ciotage, and he determined that all
743
00:45:13.159 --> 00:45:17.119
of us were being truthful and honest. Now just because
744
00:45:17.320 --> 00:45:21.719
like my uncle was being truthful, he was recalling things
745
00:45:21.800 --> 00:45:27.480
forty forty five years later, his memories weren't precise.
746
00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:30.119
What he said is that.
747
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:33.280
He remembered certain things, but other things he just didn't
748
00:45:33.320 --> 00:45:37.039
pay attention to it. Like in the dB Cooper Sleuth World,
749
00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:41.519
Amateur Sleuth World, they're talking about, you know, what grain
750
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:45.679
of shoe, like what grain were his shoes? And did
751
00:45:45.719 --> 00:45:49.400
the eyewitness remember that? And I just think when you're
752
00:45:49.880 --> 00:45:52.880
talking about I can't. If you asked me about the
753
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:56.400
birth of my daughters. Those were the most important events
754
00:45:56.440 --> 00:45:58.840
in my life, and I could tell you certain things
755
00:45:58.880 --> 00:46:02.480
I remember. I remember certain pain, like I remember hearing
756
00:46:02.519 --> 00:46:05.000
a woman screamed down the hallway when I started and
757
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:07.719
thinking no, what I went And then later I was like, oh, man,
758
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:08.719
that lady had something.
759
00:46:09.039 --> 00:46:09.960
She had you.
760
00:46:09.920 --> 00:46:12.280
Know, she knew what was going on, right, Yes she did.
761
00:46:12.440 --> 00:46:14.920
But if you asked me, yeah, right. But if you
762
00:46:14.960 --> 00:46:18.239
asked me other details, I don't remember them. I was
763
00:46:18.840 --> 00:46:22.039
in an extreme state of dress, you know, because both
764
00:46:22.119 --> 00:46:24.159
you know, especially my first one, wasn't there, you know,
765
00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:30.400
a problem. So I think that they expect, you know,
766
00:46:30.440 --> 00:46:38.320
when they read well. When Joe Kennigg's wife transcribed the
767
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:40.920
recordings and then he wrote his notes of where people
768
00:46:40.920 --> 00:46:44.079
are being truthful and not truthful With Carl and Walt,
769
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:46.679
there were a couple spots where Carl and Walt were
770
00:46:46.679 --> 00:46:50.199
talking about, you know, what would you have done if
771
00:46:50.440 --> 00:46:53.280
there was no rear door because that was really convenient,
772
00:46:53.599 --> 00:46:56.440
And Carl alson, did you choose the plane for that reason?
773
00:46:56.480 --> 00:46:58.320
And he said, no, I just whatever they sold me
774
00:46:58.360 --> 00:47:02.000
the ticket for, which is what the Northwest Airlines ticket
775
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:04.639
agent said is he just asked for a flight to.
776
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:06.880
Seattle.
777
00:47:06.920 --> 00:47:08.559
He didn't ask what kind of plane it was, and
778
00:47:08.599 --> 00:47:10.639
that information was not public knowledge.
779
00:47:11.239 --> 00:47:17.679
So but it certainly is now you can find out the.
780
00:47:17.639 --> 00:47:22.039
Exacty that is now right, right, But back then you couldn't. Right.
781
00:47:22.760 --> 00:47:28.960
And so they're they're having this conversation and Carl said, well,
782
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:31.880
what would you have done had there been no rear door?
783
00:47:32.199 --> 00:47:34.519
And Walt said, and I heard it on the recording.
784
00:47:34.559 --> 00:47:36.159
I played it over and over again. He said, I
785
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:38.800
would have gone out the side door. But the way
786
00:47:38.840 --> 00:47:41.679
it was transcribed in the book is I went out
787
00:47:41.679 --> 00:47:45.519
the side door. Well, even in the context of that conversation,
788
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:48.360
he didn't say he went out the side the side door.
789
00:47:48.360 --> 00:47:50.159
What he was saying is that's where he would have
790
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:53.679
gone out. So then what you have in these groups
791
00:47:53.719 --> 00:47:55.840
that are just like, well, it can't be him. Now
792
00:47:55.840 --> 00:47:59.079
they believe Jeff o'ciotage. He's turned out, like a lot
793
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:01.840
of people come forward and said he is a very
794
00:48:01.880 --> 00:48:05.400
honest person. And he was the truck driver who was
795
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:10.639
playing in Cowboy band, a country band that night. He
796
00:48:10.719 --> 00:48:13.559
remembered that night because it was odd and he told
797
00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:15.840
his family about it. They all said, oh, yeah, well,
798
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:18.519
we remember when he told us he met this stranger
799
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:21.880
soaking wet, beat red in the bar with his coat.
800
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:23.719
But he was soaking wet, but he wasn't wearing his
801
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:26.119
coat and was wrapped around something and he didn't know
802
00:48:26.159 --> 00:48:30.960
where he was. So he remembered that, and they remember
803
00:48:31.039 --> 00:48:34.480
that Walt remembered certain details about that and how he
804
00:48:34.559 --> 00:48:38.000
got home. And that's howl Carl was a pilot, so
805
00:48:38.039 --> 00:48:41.760
he looked at different flight paths. Well, in the amateur
806
00:48:41.760 --> 00:48:44.440
sleuth world, the fact that you know, they're just picking
807
00:48:44.440 --> 00:48:49.239
apart things that my uncle said or remembered or didn't remember, right,
808
00:48:49.760 --> 00:48:52.159
and there are things that down the line, or there
809
00:48:52.159 --> 00:48:54.119
are things he doesn't remember that they're like, oh, he
810
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:57.719
would have remembered that. That's a big deal. But the
811
00:48:57.719 --> 00:49:03.800
flight pat the Air Force jets following Northwest Airlines lost
812
00:49:03.840 --> 00:49:07.079
it almost immediately, and that's in the FBI memos, and
813
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:09.400
they asked for permission to tell the public that and
814
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:12.440
to tell, you know, go on a news story to
815
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:15.039
talk about that they were much faster than the flow
816
00:49:15.039 --> 00:49:20.400
commercial jet right and the published flight path supposedly goes
817
00:49:20.480 --> 00:49:25.280
right by Mount Saint Helens at that was about ten
818
00:49:25.320 --> 00:49:28.280
thousand feet, which the plane was flying at ten thousand feet.
819
00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:30.280
So Carl had tracked what.
820
00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:32.440
A normal route to Reno would have been, and it
821
00:49:32.480 --> 00:49:36.000
would have gone kind of east and then turns south
822
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:43.519
southeast at Ellensburg, near where Walt landed. He lent a
823
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:46.079
little north of that. But they're saying, well because the
824
00:49:46.079 --> 00:49:49.760
flight path, the flight path is like set and stone,
825
00:49:49.800 --> 00:49:53.360
but it's not. I talked to Captain Scott's daughter and
826
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:56.599
her fiance, and the fiance is a pilot. He said
827
00:49:56.599 --> 00:49:59.519
they didn't really know where they were. North Airlines was
828
00:49:59.559 --> 00:50:02.960
directing them and radar wasn't that good back then. So
829
00:50:03.199 --> 00:50:06.840
it's funny like when they want certain facts to align
830
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:09.639
with their story or their suspect, you know, you have
831
00:50:09.760 --> 00:50:11.480
to listen to what the FBI said, but when that
832
00:50:11.920 --> 00:50:13.679
doesn't meet what they want to say, they're like, well,
833
00:50:13.719 --> 00:50:16.800
ignore what the FBI said. So that's kind of it.
834
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:20.239
I mean, I don't think he's a popular suspect in
835
00:50:20.280 --> 00:50:20.760
the dB.
836
00:50:20.679 --> 00:50:22.800
Cooper world, but it doesn't.
837
00:50:22.519 --> 00:50:25.880
Matter because I really do believe him. Yeah, and the
838
00:50:26.000 --> 00:50:30.840
eye witness is and then you have Joe kenneg is
839
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:34.239
what the former lead investigator on the Jimmy Hoffa case.
840
00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.320
You know, so this guy is not any slouch.
841
00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:42.039
Is it possible because of the work that your uncle
842
00:50:42.159 --> 00:50:48.119
did for the CIA and other intelligence agencies, that the
843
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:55.840
FBI were told, because of his abilities and the missions
844
00:50:55.880 --> 00:50:59.159
that he may have been on or are continuing on,
845
00:50:59.320 --> 00:51:02.079
the FBI would have been told to shut the file down.
846
00:51:04.480 --> 00:51:08.840
I definitely think that's possible. And I actually found several
847
00:51:08.880 --> 00:51:14.280
newspaper articles even from like the nineteen seventies, where the
848
00:51:14.440 --> 00:51:18.000
FBI said, if we're looking into somebody and the CIA
849
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.840
tells us they're an asset, stop the investigation. We do.
850
00:51:22.360 --> 00:51:25.239
So that's actually been printed as far back as the
851
00:51:25.320 --> 00:51:28.840
nineteen seventies, nineteen eighties, so and I had found.
852
00:51:28.559 --> 00:51:30.440
A few of those articles. So yeah, I think.
853
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:31.480
It's absolutely possible.
854
00:51:31.800 --> 00:51:34.519
Sort of why, especially with all the information that you have,
855
00:51:34.719 --> 00:51:40.639
all the evidence of the interviews, That's the only reason
856
00:51:40.800 --> 00:51:43.519
I can see, as a former police officer myself, for
857
00:51:43.599 --> 00:51:46.079
an investigation being shut down.
858
00:51:48.039 --> 00:51:51.000
Right, yeah, right, So what's new?
859
00:51:51.039 --> 00:51:52.719
What do you go up to next? Are you doing
860
00:51:52.719 --> 00:51:56.239
more lectures, more speaking, writing another book or two?
861
00:51:58.000 --> 00:52:00.599
I think my next. I spent over a years on
862
00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:04.920
this book and really trying to like go through the
863
00:52:05.000 --> 00:52:09.159
FBI files and go through my uncle's files and document
864
00:52:09.199 --> 00:52:11.480
things so people don't think I'm just making stuff up,
865
00:52:11.519 --> 00:52:15.039
that they see why I have pulled these lines together
866
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:17.920
and tell the story. But I think the next book
867
00:52:17.960 --> 00:52:20.239
I write will be uh will.
868
00:52:20.079 --> 00:52:23.840
Be fiction, not because for fun, because this.
869
00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.440
Has been really intense. I've spent more than ten years
870
00:52:26.440 --> 00:52:28.400
on this, and I think it's time for me to
871
00:52:28.440 --> 00:52:31.599
have my own adventures and not write about my uncles anymore.
872
00:52:31.639 --> 00:52:34.800
I think it's just time to move on. And I
873
00:52:35.480 --> 00:52:39.559
just don't think anyone's cares. I don't think the authorities
874
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:43.000
care to identify who the real Gbie Cooper is. And
875
00:52:43.079 --> 00:52:47.039
the only people who care, you know, unsolved mystery fans. Yes,
876
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:50.480
and they'll never believe anybody you know. You could there's
877
00:52:50.719 --> 00:52:52.599
unless you could come up with the twenty dollars bill.
878
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:54.599
I don't think they'd believe it.
879
00:52:54.440 --> 00:52:55.280
Was the hijacker.
880
00:52:56.320 --> 00:53:00.480
There's a there's a point. Your uncle was a collector
881
00:53:00.519 --> 00:53:04.199
of things. Why wouldn't he keep a couple of US
882
00:53:04.199 --> 00:53:05.760
twenty dollars bills around us.
883
00:53:05.719 --> 00:53:09.920
Trophies because he didn't want to go to jail. I mean,
884
00:53:10.039 --> 00:53:16.079
he was destitute and he needed money. He spent the money.
885
00:53:16.119 --> 00:53:18.039
He put some of the money in the Canadian Bank
886
00:53:18.599 --> 00:53:25.280
just north asumas that entry up there. People talk about
887
00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:27.400
that he didn't brag.
888
00:53:27.039 --> 00:53:27.719
About this crime.
889
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:30.920
He didn't brag about any of his crimes. Ever, he
890
00:53:30.960 --> 00:53:33.559
didn't keep anything from any crime. The only thing he
891
00:53:33.639 --> 00:53:37.360
kept from this one were the long John Zetti wore,
892
00:53:37.480 --> 00:53:40.039
even though they never fit again. But that could never
893
00:53:40.079 --> 00:53:43.079
really be tied to the crime. Right, if you keep
894
00:53:43.119 --> 00:53:47.320
one of the twenties, even years later, you're going to jail.
895
00:53:47.599 --> 00:53:49.960
And that's why I told him, don't sign the confession.
896
00:53:50.000 --> 00:53:52.360
I don't care that you're sick and you're eighty. They'll
897
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:53.360
send you to jail for.
898
00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:54.280
The rest of your life.
899
00:53:54.360 --> 00:53:59.599
So the confession was never signed, right, that's good.
900
00:54:00.079 --> 00:54:01.719
Out of it now. My mom and I talked him
901
00:54:01.719 --> 00:54:02.159
out of it.
902
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:08.440
So so the FBI never did receive assigned confession from
903
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:08.920
your uncle.
904
00:54:11.880 --> 00:54:14.360
No, but there he's on recording, you know what I mean.
905
00:54:14.360 --> 00:54:15.559
They have the recording of his.
906
00:54:15.599 --> 00:54:16.320
Voice as well.
907
00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:18.239
Talking about it.
908
00:54:19.320 --> 00:54:22.599
All right, let our listeners know what your face, Let
909
00:54:22.639 --> 00:54:28.000
our listeners know what your Facebook pages. Pardon me, let
910
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.840
our listeners know how they can find you on Facebook.
911
00:54:32.239 --> 00:54:35.159
Oh, I'm sorry. I'm on Facebook on dB Cooper story
912
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:38.519
and I have a lot of the documents and photos
913
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:41.239
of my uncle and different letters and stuff like that
914
00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:42.760
that they can see.
915
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.239
So dB Cooper.
916
00:54:45.039 --> 00:54:48.280
Story, Lisa, I want to thank you again, always great
917
00:54:48.320 --> 00:54:52.800
talking to you. Continued success, and I for one hope
918
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:56.400
one day there'll be a knock at the door and
919
00:54:56.440 --> 00:55:00.480
they'll be the FBI saying you were right who dB
920
00:55:00.599 --> 00:55:06.440
Cooper was. Take care of yourself, Lisa, Thank you. X
921
00:55:06.440 --> 00:55:08.639
O Nation. Lise Astoria has been our guest. We've been
922
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:11.559
talking about the dB Cooper case. I'll be back on
923
00:55:11.599 --> 00:55:13.920
the other side of this break as the X Zone
924
00:55:13.960 --> 00:55:16.599
continues with Here is truly Rob McConnell from our broadcast
925
00:55:16.639 --> 00:55:21.000
center and studios in Saint Catharine's, Ontario, Canada. You're listening
926
00:55:21.000 --> 00:55:24.119
to us on the Talk Star Radio Network, Mutual Broadcast Network,
927
00:55:24.519 --> 00:55:28.559
xone Broadcast Network, and on your hometown radio Classic twelve
928
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:32.039
twenty c f AJAM, and they stream us around the
929
00:55:32.039 --> 00:55:36.000
world on Classic twelve twenty dot CA. We'll be back
930
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:40.480
with our two in a very short while. I mean
931
00:55:40.719 --> 00:55:44.639
very short, maybe forty seconds, fifty seconds, I don't know,
932
00:55:45.159 --> 00:55:46.880
but I guarantee you it'll be short,