WEBVTT
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When there were still a lot of open questions and things that I that were beyond my control in the world around me or my personal life, I felt like this book and this story grounded me.
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And but I think the way that I might have grown in is that I have learned to listen to my own voice a little bit more.
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Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast.
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I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach.
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At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories.
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The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it.
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This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully.
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Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers.
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Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone.
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Welcome to Reddit Scared.
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I'm glad you're here.
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Let's dive in.
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Hi, writer.
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Welcome back to the Reddit Scared Podcast.
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I'm your host, Stacey, and this is where we talk about the brave and the messy act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more confidence, more clarity, not feel so alone.
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Today's a guest episode.
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And I'm so excited to introduce you to Sheffik Khan, author of the debut middle grade novel, Zena Lost and Found.
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And this is a conversation about writing stories that explore identity, belonging, and adventure through the lens of historical fiction.
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We talk about the inspiration behind the novel, the real life history that shaped the story, and what it was like to balance all the research and what to put on the page with the action adventure slash mystery plot, as well as the emotional character growth.
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We dig into the long road to publication and how to handle difficult editorial feedback, give tips on ways to build community, and talk about how to learn to trust yourself as a writer.
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So if you've ever struggled through revisions or you're writing and you feel alone, questioned whether your story was working, or you just need a reminder that your growth as a writer happens one messy draft at a time and you just need to keep going, this episode is for you.
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Let me give you Shafek's bio and then we'll jump into the interview.
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Shafek Khan is a middle-grade author, lawyer, and mom.
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Born to Pakistani parents, Shafak grew up in a small port city along the Persian Gulf called Jubal Industry City, a place that barely makes it onto most maps, but it would shape her worldview and forever cement her identity as a third culture kid.
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It is there that Shafek discovered the world of books at her school's magical library.
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She attended college in New York City, majoring in political science in Middle Eastern and Asian languages and cultures before heading to law school.
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After law school, Shafecht worked for nearly a decade as a legal services attorney representing low-income people with disabilities facing housing and benefit issues.
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In this role, Shafek became acquainted with people's stories, the ones they tell and the ones they don't, and learned to listen to the story beneath the surface.
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Hello, Shafek.
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Thank you so much for coming on the Ride It Scared podcast.
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I'm delighted to have you here to talk about your debut middle grade novel, Zaina, Lost and Found.
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So we're going to get into that and just talk about your writing process and your journey.
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So, but before we do, would you please share with our listeners how you came to be a writer yourself and a published author.
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Thank you so much for having me on Writed Scared Stacey.
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I'm so excited to talk a little bit more about, frankly, the most uncomfortable parts about this journey and to get it all out there.
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So really excited to dive into that with you.
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My journey, I think, started on, started off pretty early because I think even when I was younger, I loved books.
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Uh, avid reader, just devoured series after series, like Judy Balloon, Babysitter's Club, Nancy Drew, like anything.
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I just was totally a series girly and loved reading.
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If I got bored, I read, I was done with whatever, exhausted whatever was in-house, I actually would write a lot.
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And that actually started on the earlier side of my life.
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I would say by the age of 10, I was writing something for fun.
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And I think when I continued on in high school with a lot of encouragement from those high school teachers that are just really inspiring, give you the right amount of feedback on also how to improve, the positive feedback to build your confidence.
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I got real lucky on that, both my sophomore and junior year with AP classes.
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And then in college, I feel like I had an opportunity as a liberal arts major to delve in deeper, but obviously in a different kind of way, but continue my writing, building my writing skills.
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And then I came back to fiction after becoming a lawyer and realizing that I wanted to put something out there in the world that was a way for me to discuss my point of view on things.
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And so I think I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to write fiction.
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I viewed it as an escape from a lot of the exacting parts of being a legal services attorney.
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At that time, I was advocating for tenants who had disabilities and were being evicted from their affordable housing and had an opportunity to learn more about their stories and then advocate on the basis of those stories in front of a judge to help keep them in their homes.
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And it was sort of, I was, I didn't realize it at the time, but I think my ability to write fiction was actually honed from being a lawyer.
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I really do feel like being able to tell someone else's story is what you're doing ultimately when you're writing fiction.
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And that's also what I was doing as a legal services attorney.
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So I was really excited to have developed the skills through work to apply it to my fiction writing, but also viewed it as an escape from the harsh realities of poverty lawyering.
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And I think just in terms of becoming a published author, that's a whole other story.
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So I'm happy to dive into that.
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But we'll get into that.
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We'll get into that.
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Amazing, amazing.
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So clearly, early love of reading.
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I think in your bio you referenced that there was a magical library where you grew up.
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So clearly it's this has always been near and dear to your heart.
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And then, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about your book.
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So Xena Lost and Found, which was released last September.
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We're recording in January of 2026.
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So September of 2025.
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So congratulations.
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It's a beautiful book.
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It has such a beautiful cover.
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It looks like such a fun story, and the blurb is very fun too.
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So why don't you share with us what inspired you to write that particular story?
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And then we'll talk a little bit about going into the publication of that, what it took to write it and get it published.
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Yeah.
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So this Susanna Lost and Found is a historical fiction adventure featuring a 12-year-old British Backsani girl in the year 1970.
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And she's somebody who feels like not exactly a fit anywhere, like in school or even in her own home in many ways.
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And part of what she does to cope is really let her imagination run wild about mysteries that don't really exist for the most part, and solving those mysteries and playing detective until a real mystery does come her way.
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And she happens upon strange mandates following her and her parents.
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And then when they leave their home in London for holiday in Pakistan, things get more spicy, no pun intended.
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And when they reach Pakistan soon after being there, you can things are getting a little bit, still a little bit uh piquing her spidey senses, and she's wondering why people are acting a little bit strangely, or there's certain information that she's getting that about a stolen jewel and how it might be tied to frankly the strange man that has been following her.
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And then her parents disappear.
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And so that's where we have the the event that really shapes the rest of the book.
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Because then Zaina has to figure out why her parents disappeared and also clear their name in the process because part of their disappearance is that they have been accused of stealing this precious jewel that she had been reading about all this time.
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And so, as part of that, she ends up embarking on this journey that frankly is unfathomable to us sitting here in January 2026, where she safely traverses parts of northern Pakistan, enters Aranistan, goes to Gabul, goes to Tehran, and then ends up in Istanbul.
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And that is made possible also by a real route called the Hippie Trail.
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And I think I was just so intrigued by this idea of the Hippie Trail because of the fact that it's something that I would never have imagined could even exist, right?
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This idea of crossing borders safely, having these cultures be like accessible to you.
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And I mean that frankly more financially and also logistically through overland transportation.
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And I know that this is something that existed and that a lot of travelers went on because obviously it's a very well-documented phenomenon.
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And I can talk a little bit more about my research later.
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But also, my mother-in-law, who herself is British Pakistani, actually also took this trip.
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So she in the early 70s, it wasn't the year 1970, and I can talk about why I chose that year in particular.
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But in the 70s, her and her family had to drive back from Pakistan to their home in London.
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And they made that trip.
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Family of five, youngest one was under a year old, and they made that trip safely.
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And she talks a lot about what she observed about these different cultures and cities.
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And so I thought this would be really amazing to capture a moment in time in a lot of these locations.
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And then also, I think, talk more about Zaina's internal journey as well, as someone who is very much views herself as being British, but also about Cassani.
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Wow.
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Oh my gosh.
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It sounds sounds like there's so much of real life that inspired pieces of this that drew you maybe into what you researched.
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That's really cool.
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Yeah.
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And wow, that's a lot to pack into for an adventure hold for a 12-year-old girl.
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Whoa, that's amazing.
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And there has to be some suspension of belief, I think, overall in some ways, right?
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But I think I think it's yes, exactly, right?
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But the underlying facts are the same, right?
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The underlying factual reality of taking these routes, taking this train, staying in this hostel, these are all based on real, real aspects of the hippie trail, right?
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What were the what was a hostel's name in in Tehran that hippies would frequent?
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And what were the restaurants that they would visit in Kabul?
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Or how did they enter this one part out of northern Pakistan?
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And what did they do there, right?
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And so these are actually all based in reality.
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But yes, this idea of a 12-year-old navigating that is a lot, but who wants adults, anyways, right?
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If we're trying to figure out a mystery, right?
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Children certainly do not want adults speaking to them through their stories.
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It's that we we don't want any of this.
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Children don't want any finger wagging or whatever.
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So yeah, would you mind sharing just a little bit about the what was the process like of gosh, going back in time and weeding through all that research and deciding what to include, what to leave out, and how to keep the entertainment, the action impact front and center?
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Because that's really what's driving the story is it sounds like this girl is she's in an unfamiliar place, having to solve a mystery, find her parents, clear their name.
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That's a lot, right?
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That how'd you go about that doing that?
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I love this question because it's a really perceptive question, perceptive framing of the question when you ask me what did I include and what I didn't include, because that's such a that is exactly the question people should ask be asking about even our history books, probably, but especially historical fiction, because it's not meant to be a history book.
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And so you can't really cover all the bases, but and especially if you are focused on the action and propelling the plot along based on the action, then you might be able to give some context of certain dynamics, and other times you can delve into it a little bit more.
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And so there is a lot of, I think, my own probably biases for what I did want to feature and what I may not have wanted to feature as much or what I couldn't feature, right?
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Some of it is just again, my nine-year-old, 10, 9, 10-year-olds, even eight-year-olds that might be reading this book, might be more interested in the plot.
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And then I think my slightly older readers, like the 12, the 13-year-olds, like they can probably pick up some of these historical or political contexts, hopefully, or at least spark a conversation.
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There is back matter as well to provide some additional color to some of the locations that Zayna visited.
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But I think that's exactly right.
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So I think firstly, just reading books that provided a good overview of what the hippie trail entailed.
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And there's one that in particular called with by Rory McLean that I just loved that kind of gets into like country by country, city by city.
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What were not just what were the places like in terms of what would people be doing?
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What would someone who's on a budget, who's unfamiliar with their cultural surroundings, where would they go eat, right?
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But also more uncomfortable aspects of those of that travel, which is that sometimes people will get sick from the food.
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Sometimes there was like cultural disconnect.
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Sometimes you might be sleeping on the road because you're you did stretch your budget out, or because of the context of it being 1970, people will get lost, right?
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Like straight lost, which is just like a wild set of dynamics to consider.
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And so I think I always initially when I started this project, I was enjoying the research almost too much because again, reading the book through the books that provided some overview about the hippie trail, which I'm also happy to share and link, but also actually about a British Pakistani spy, which I'm also happy to link.
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But um I think those gave me really good macro understanding.
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And then pouring over again documented aspects of this travel through blog entries, photos, and letters exchanged between travelers was also another way to, again, flesh out what it felt like to be someone who is European, navigating a the flat terrains of central Afghanistan and but happening upon like an untouched, beautiful, natural wonder and what you would do in that situation.
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So I think a couple of things that come to mind when I think about what I would include, but what I may not have included.
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One of the important characters in the book is based on a real life poet who was imprisoned during during that time by the Shah of Iran because he was critical of what the Shah's like economic policies were and whatnot.
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And so there's a whole character that's based on this poet.
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And again, that matter kind of gets into this a little bit more.
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And so I encourage people to take a look at it.
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But that's somebody who I dedicate a whole character to.
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But there were also other indications that protests were there's an undercurrents of protests happening.
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Zaina and Maher and Amin are the three main characters of the book, walk through a bazaar in Tehran and notice that the merchants aren't there, that a lot of the shops are shuttered because they're on strike and that the Haran bazaris were viewed as like a litmus test of what the people were feeling about the economic state of affairs.
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And that, by the way, is still true.
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I think that the bazaaris are a play a very critical role in Iranian society on that front.
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And so, anyway, so that's like an example of something that I didn't really get into, but they note that people are that the shops aren't open and there's a reason for that, right?
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But again, I did balance that out with perhaps a character that does provide a more incomplete.
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Yeah, exactly.
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So I think there's like a lot of your what sparks your interest, but also balancing again, moving the action forward and not making it a travel log, right?
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Because that's not what kids want to read.
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Yeah, I'm just thinking about all the elements of conflict that are natural to the story.
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There's environmental conflict, social and economic and political conflict here.
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You probably have some conflict between your characters just because of personality.
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And then you also have the antagonistic character player, whoever is doing the bad thing or creating the mystery of the puzzle.
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So wow.
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Yeah, that is a lot.
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So when did you first get the idea for this particular story?
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And what was the writing process like for you?
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Yeah.
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So I knew the the con the background, right?
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I knew that when it was gonna be set, and I knew I needed to do world building around that uh to flesh out the historical context.
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In terms of the actual adventure story, I almost feel like that did come a little bit later in some ways and much more organically.
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I started off with a one-page plot.
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It was like, what do I want Zanep to be doing?
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And how do I want to get there?
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And I I really enjoy international conspiracy and spy stuff.
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Big fan of that.
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Love study spies, for example.
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To me, then that's my my go-to genre that I will consume, both in terms of books and also in terms of show TV content.
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I I love John Lacarr, I love shows that are based on John Lacar.
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It's just I think a really rich way to talk about a mystery and add that element to it.
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So I think that just that outline I was looking at actually in preparation for this podcast, it does not resemble the book today.
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So that's all to say that you can write the book in that after you do the outline, you do a chapter outline, and maybe you also do a storyboard and you actually just start writing.
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I think that's really important.
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Just start writing, get and put pen to paper, so to speak.
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But that editing process will make will change whatever you wherever you started off from.
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It will change it quite dramatically.
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And I think that's good.
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So I think I had too many adult characters, for example, in the beginning.
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I think some of the action was not as it was not earlier on enough.
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Sometimes it there was like too much focus on, frankly, the maybe the historical context I wanted to paint or the geographic descriptions I was getting, and we needed to add some more action back into it, right?
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So I think there was actually, again, for me, a little bit easier to write more about the what I was researching.
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Maybe that was almost maybe the lawyerslash Paul poli sci person and me bringing that, being really interested in that.
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But actually writing fiction, the story about Zaina and how she's being chased in these stories in different instances by the bad guy, or how she's uncovering clues, that was an interesting and tricky thing to make sure that I had enough of, right?
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And I would just describe my process again as being highly iterative and a lot of editing.
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And also I think just keeping my eyes and ears open for when inspiration stuck, because sometimes it wasn't necessarily when I was at my laptop writing.
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Sometimes it was when I was on a walk or you're talking to someone and they mentioned something and that makes you think about something else.
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And maybe there's again some other content that you consume.
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And so then you were like, okay, this is an interesting sort of thing that I might want to include, or this aspect of it I might want to put in for the action.
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And so I think I hope I answered your question, but I think again, it was a very roundabout way that I did the action part of it, but I do feel like fleshing out the world building was a little, frankly, for me, a little bit more straightforward.
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Yeah.
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So it definitely sounds like you understood.
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The where and the when.
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Yeah.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.480
And the how came later.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:10.880
Did you always know the who?
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:16.160
I guess my question is is well, what made you decide to write this from a 12-year-old girl's perspective?
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.480
Yeah, that's a such a good question.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:23.279
I didn't always know who because I kind of wanted her to be a little bit older.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:29.920
And I felt like that was more realistic for her to be maybe 15, 16 and doing this, these hijes.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.839
At some point, they're like in an embassy.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:33.680
Now they've essentially broken into an empty.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:39.920
I think I was reading books that were in that were comps, right?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.119
Whenever I felt like there was I needed a break from what I was writing, I naturally just kept on the reading front, right?
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.359
Because again, you never know when inspiration might strike.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.799
And also I feel you should look at people's art, right?
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.839
You should look at how other people are refining their craft.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:09.200
And I noticed that there was an opportunity in at that stage, that 12-year-old, that 11, 12-year-old stage, where you're not as maybe aware of everything, but you are becoming aware.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:20.000
And also that there's like, of course, like of this like coming of age like part of it that felt like actually ripe for a lot of internal development.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:35.680
And also, I think probably reflecting back on my own personal experience, like I do think being 11-12 was particularly challenging because you were finding your footing with in school, with your friends, again, with your own family, maybe.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:51.839
And I think it's a nice opportunity to capture that audience and let them know hopefully through this character Zaina, that if you have felt like an outsider, that is a like normal part of the that is part of the human existence.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:22:15.279
And that what I hope they take away from this, which I think Zaina does, is that despite feeling unless you're Moored at many many junctures, not feeling British enough, not feeling Pakistani enough, not feeling like she knows enough about her family, not knowing where her place is with her friends or with her mom and dad or with even her siblings, that ultimately she keeps choosing to belong.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.200
That ultimately she keeps thinking, you know what?
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.680
I do belong in maybe all these places, these spaces.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.440
Because what I want people to take away from this is that everyone deserves to belong.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:30.480
And especially again, I want that message to go through to this particular age range of readers.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:31.359
I love that.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:40.000
Yeah, I find middle grade fiction in this that a little upper middle grade fiction, it's often about like I did your changing.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:43.599
And I have a nine-year-old, so I'm like witnessing this.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:59.039
It's like you're changing more societal pressure is coming in, and it's it's like defining who you are within the relationship of your family in a way that is different than it has been before.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:14.079
And then, of course, like I I love the kind of what I like to call the through line of desire, the internal desire for the character is about belonging, where the external goal for your character is about solving the mystery, finding her parents.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:24.000
And because she has to go through this, she finds out something about herself, you know, that that creates a bit of a not a reckoning, but uh another level of awareness or acceptance.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:24.559
I love that.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.599
That's so beautiful.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.039
So beautiful.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.160
Oh my gosh.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:32.079
When did you get the spark for this story idea?
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:33.279
Do you recall?
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:38.480
I want to say it's probably early 2018, like January, February of 2018.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.359
Took a while.
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:40.960
Yeah, stories do.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.559
They take a while to bake, especially when you're juggling life.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:45.839
Right?
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.440
There's always the life.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.839
There's earlier reasons not to be doing it, right?
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:50.880
To be doing something else.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.000
Um absolutely.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:52.640
Absolutely.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.720
But I'm so glad that you did because now we have this beautiful story in the world.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:04.799
So, what was the path to publication like once you got the draft to the place where it was ready to be looked at through other eyes?
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:05.920
Did you query?
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:07.279
How was the query process?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:17.200
So I have a very non-traditional query story querying story, which is that I did query and that just fell flat on its face.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:27.440
And that's again totally normal and disheartening, which is also want to normalize that feeling of feeling like you're pushing against the wall a little bit, frankly.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:36.400
And then I had an introduction to someone, and that unlocked a conversation with my now agent.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:46.960
And I just it's a good example of why being, for example, a member of SCBWI or at other groups is really important because you never know when you might get introduced to someone.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:48.960
Sometimes you'll have agent spotlights.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:54.799
I definitely got my manuscript reviewed by agents whenever I could, even before I had an agent.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:11.359
And then, and it was really through that process that I again had this introduction and was able to get it in front of someone in a way that, again, with a warm introduction, I'm not sure without the warm introduction, sorry, I'm not sure I would have been able to even get eyes on it, right?
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.559
That's really the tricky part about querying because you really want them to get eyes on it.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.839
And my querying process was a little bit not traditional from that perspective.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:31.359
And then once I had the agent, he we obviously went on sub and pitched it to publishers and was getting a lot of, I got like maybe 18, 19 rejections, and none of them were giving me good feedback about what.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:40.559
In fact, they were just like great boys, love the story, but there were things like we are doing something similar, or we don't we don't know about historical fiction.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.039
This was a big historical fiction was also tricky.
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:49.279
They're like middle grade market is tricky, and then historical fiction is even more tricky, and so there was some of that feedback.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:54.799
There was one feedback that I did incorporate, which was like, what do you think about actually making this in present tense?
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:00.720
And so I did spend some time because with going on sub, they go in rounds.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:09.519
And so between rounds, I did make that change because when I tried it for a few pages, I really liked how it frankly propelled the action forward as well.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:12.160
And it made you feel it in a more palpable way.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.079
Yeah, it feels more meeting, exactly.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.680
So that was like one thing that I did.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.160
And then honestly, I got I got matched with Learner.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.759
And the key thing with my editor at Learner is that she just got this book from the beginning.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:31.680
I I really feel like when she gave the feedback for why she wanted to buy the book, it was exactly what I wanted to hear.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.319
She was like, I love Zayna, I love how she's navigating her relationships and how she had this internal journey as she's like now, everything that you're saying, but she was saying.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:48.000
And so just this feeling of having your work be seen, like truly you feel seen, it was incredible.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:55.680
And so then once learner bought the book, the patent publication took a while, to be honest, because it was like almost two years.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.640
I it sold in June 2023.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:07.200
I went on sub in like fall of 2022, sold in June 2023, and then it was published in September 2025.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:13.680
So during that process from like three to 25, there was some editing, but thankfully not a ton.
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:19.759
I there there was no major structural difference changes, no characters were killed off, which I was worried.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.440
I'd heard that was a thing that could happen.
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:22.559
So I was like worried.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:24.880
But um, I was really grateful for that.
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:30.480
And then about a year out from September 2025, it basically goes to print, so to speak.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.000
And so you can't touch it after that point.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:33.599
Maybe there's a little bit less than a year.
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.559
But, anyways, that's roughly what my path was like.
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.000
Thank you for sharing that.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:44.880
I just I love to hear the journey of how an idea becomes a book and how it's so different for everyone.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:59.519
And my hope is for people listening, if you're listening, listen up, is that just because it's a lengthy process doesn't make it that does that doesn't mean anything.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:13.920
Sometimes I think we get so focused on the one that's gonna make it, or is this the book that we're gonna that it just books take what they take to bring to fruition, is my point.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.599
And so I just love that you shared your journey.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:33.920
And that, and I feel like I totally agree, first of all, everything you're just saying, because I think that's the tricky part about writing a book, because there are so many moments to exit out of it because you feel like this is taking too long, it's not gonna happen, and I need to come back to it too often.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.440
There's I've moved, I've maybe I've had a kid, maybe something else has happened.
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.319
And so I completely agree with you that that five-year period from 2018 to 2020.
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.079
Oh, maybe that's my mouth is wrong.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.920
2018 to 2022 is four years.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:53.279
It was really, there was a lot of points where I was like, I think I'm just gonna shelf this, think about it another time.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:05.839
And I'm really glad that I kept at it because the feeling of meeting someone who has read my book, especially I love adult readers because they can articulate like what their feet like what their expression is in a different way.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:16.960
But young girls, boys, like that has been like one of the most moving aspects of this that I don't think I was fully prepared for.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.279
You know, I get emotional hearing from people.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.039
I'm like, like that character.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:22.160
Oh my gosh, you like that.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.720
It's just like it's it's so I love it.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:25.599
So keep at it.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:54.640
Yeah, that's a nice tie-in, actually, a good segue to talking about kind of the heart of the what the podcast is about, the Write It's Scared Podcast, is talking about times when the writing got hard, but when there were struggles during either a writing phase of the book or just in the waiting phases of the waiting phases, because there are a lot of waiting phases once once we've brought something to to the end game, and then we're trying to get it out in the world.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:00.799
So can you think of a time of when you struggled and what that was like and what helped you move on or move forward?
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:19.759
I was just lucky to have a lot of beta readers of people who were just in my orbit, friends, family, friends, kids, even who were willing to just read this book, which is I don't know, I still find it like a wildly kind thing to do because some of those drafts were terrible.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:29.440
There was one particular feedback that I got, and it was uh again, really trusted friend, and it was late in the process.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:39.920
So I want to say kind of frankly, then early 2022, and I went on sub in late 2022, and it was just like the edit was kind of got to the main aspect of the thing.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.359
She was like, I don't really get it.
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:47.759
What are they, what where what are they gonna, what's the what's sort of what are they trying to solve for?
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:56.160
The these clues are really difficult to parse, but maybe this is also just me and how I never follow other mysteries, like when I watched them.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.480
She was kind of joking around that maybe it's and I couldn't unsee that.
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:11.119
And that was very hard because it I did a pretty big rewrite, frankly, including getting rid of some adult characters that had somehow lingered on until that point.
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:21.839
And many of them had already uh had written them out, but there was definitely still one that was left that I adored, but I had to just take them out.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:34.559
And then there were a few other adult characters that I had to make less important to the action and making the action happen that it wasn't driven by my 12-year-old and her trusted companions.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.400
So that was, I think, really tricky.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:45.519
But just this idea that the plot may not make sense, and it was I had been working on something for years at that point, writer's circle, other beta readers.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.640
I joined a workshop at Stanford, you know, those writing workshops.
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.119
So I had that some editing route that way, not the whole book, parts of it.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.079
But this idea of getting that feedback was really difficult.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.880
I had to just step away from it, to be completely honest.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.880
Did not look at that feedback.
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:06.240
Then I went back and I organized the feedback with a lot of intentionality.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:13.119
So, first looking at what was the overall plot feedback, then what was the chapter feedback, and then just going in line by line.
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:19.119
And I think it it really helped to take breaks, but it was, again, really difficult to come back to it.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:36.799
And I do think having this organized way to make sure my plot is clearly delineated in a way that a reader could follow that made sense, that was moving forward, the right amount of momentum, but also good sort of conclusions of any loose threads, all that was really challenging.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:43.839
And I did actually do a storyboard, another storyboard basically, so late in the process after this feedback.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.319
Oh my gosh.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:51.359
Just thinking about it, it actually is traumatizing me because I'm like, oh my gosh, it was it was just it was just totally wild.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:33:04.319
And then just on the post-publication side, I think the post-publication part of it has been the challenging part of it has been, frankly, doing some of the PR and getting the book out there on social media in particular.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:21.599
I think it is something that I had to, I'm still working on, but like it took a while for me to even just create my author account, make it public, all that, put yourself out there, which as a millennial, like I had was not as willing to do that.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:30.559
And but I think I found my lane and I have to I've like dabbled with TikTok and Instagram reels enough that like hopefully I'm putting out coherent content now at least.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:36.240
I just need to increase frequency, which is that's very challenging because to your point, life happens.
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:45.119
And at least when you have a book that you're writing, feel like you're getting something from it, it's improving your focus, it's helping you think about a story.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:48.799
And I don't know, you just feel like productive and engaged and whatever.
00:33:49.119 --> 00:34:02.640
Being on social media and worrying about my next post, I still struggle with finding that or viewing that as like productive to my like overall well-being.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:14.960
I get that it's good for the book, but um, but I also spoke to an author, a published author, like at some point during this process when I was waiting for frankly between like rounds and submission process, and that was agonizing.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.639
No one prepares me for that late.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.840
And she was saying that she opted out of all social media, and she was like, you gotta find your own voice, and it's okay to opt out of all social media.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.360
So I think that might not have been exactly what my lane was.
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.719
Like when I spoke to her, it was like really reassuring that's an option.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:33.519
I maybe needed to hear that was an option and that you could be okay.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:41.920
But I think finding my lane on on my sort of public presence has been challenging in that post-publication period.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:49.840
And but I'm working on it, also a work in progress and giving myself some grace because I'm a long way from where I was maybe six months ago on this.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:51.119
So I did.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:53.039
I can't imagine.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.320
And I loved what you shared.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.159
That was such a beautiful tip to organize feedback based to plot level feedback, chapter level feedback, line level feedback.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:08.559
So at least you have a way that you can sink into it in a system, perhaps a more systematic way.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.119
Yes.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.679
And just going, oh my gosh, what do I do with all of this?
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:12.159
All right.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.679
So this has been a long process to bring this book to fruition.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.239
What have you learned about yourself and your writing process?
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.280
What's your takeaway from all of this when you step back?
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.360
I really actually enjoyed the misery of having this hang over my head.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.679
Because therein lies the reason you are a writer.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.159
I think this idea it grounded me in so many ways.
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.079
When that you felt like the world was upside down in different ways.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.719
Pandemic, post-pandemic, right?
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:56.079
Like when there were still a lot of open questions and things that I that were beyond my control in the world around me or my personal life, I felt like this book and this story grounded me.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:05.280
And but I think the way that I might have grown in is that I uh have learned to listen to my own voice a little bit more.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:14.639
It was true, I would still go, I would 100% do everything the same way in terms of seeking out feedback and editing it and my next project a million different ways.
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.039
And I really believe in having as many eyes on it and all of that.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:33.280
But I think that I will did not have as much of a sense of my own voice going through that feedback process uh as I did towards the end of it, frankly, including that major markup that I had.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:38.480
But now as I'm working on other projects, I can just see, I can feel it like that.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:45.920
Of course, uh having some self-doubt is again a very natural part of this process.
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:49.840
And it's good because then it makes you question whether something is working or not working.
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:57.519
But I also do feel a little bit more emboldened to to take risks, to just start writing.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.239
So I feel like I started off as much more of a plotter.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.320
And I think I might be a plancer now because I'm like, I think I could probably do I need to you know anyway.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:07.920
Maybe that's gonna be something I regret.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.280
But but I do think that I I'm starting to trust my voice more.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:16.000
Yeah, and you're also your ability to let a story unfold, right?
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.519
And then come back to it.
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:18.159
Yeah.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:18.719
Yeah.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:28.800
It reminds me there's this, I don't know if it's like a meme or if it's just something I saw, but it's that it's a voiceover and it says, So you think about the plan, you make the plan, then you throw away the plan.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:32.239
Oh my gosh.
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.280
Yeah, it's just sometimes that's just what we have to do.
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:43.920
So just from what you've covered over the last few years, what do you think have been the most helpful resources for you to learn your craft?
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.519
It's a really good question.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:47.440
I think there's been a couple of different things.
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.000
One is obviously reading, which I uh mentioned, have mentioned a few times.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:56.000
I think just reading comps, reading middle grade, just being obsessed with all, right?
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.039
And so it's really funny because a lot of times my friends will be like, What are you reading?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:03.760
And I'm like, I'm not going to tell you until I'm like a group of friends who actually also read middle grade.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:05.119
That has been actually really fun.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.480
Because I'm like, did you read this?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:07.760
So that's really incredible.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:14.800
But I think reading, the second thing is FCBI and making sure that it was plugged in with the different opportunities that they offer.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:24.000
For example, as I mentioned earlier, like they had this Oktoberfest where they had real agents review the first 50 manuscripts that are like submitted or something like that.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.400
Not obviously the whole manuscript, but the sampling.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.719
And so making use of that.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.079
Also, uh write a writing workshop that I attended.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:41.679
I think I alluded to that earlier too, where you have an opportunity to share your writing, but also talk a little bit more about craft and also the editing process.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:49.280
Because again, it's important to think about editing in a much more organized way, because otherwise it can feel very overwhelming and you don't know where to start.
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.199
So I think that's been really helpful.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:58.559
And then finally, and I consider this to be like in some ways the most helpful resource has been my writer's group, my critique group.
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:16.480
So as a circle of women now that have can we've got we've consistently met for 2020 to six years on a monthly basis, sharing resources, telling us what worked, what didn't work, and obviously reviewing each other's work consistently, right?
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.079
So we feel like there's more continuity.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:23.119
They understand the project that's you're working on, can build off of it in a different way.
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:44.480
But that has been the most tremendous resource for me because again, they've just consistently seen what I am working on, given me good feedback, we'll let each other know about different resources that we've used, a workshop that we're about to attend, or if one of us attends it, we'll share the materials or summarize the materials for one another.
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:51.360
So I think that's some of the helpful resources that I feel like if anyone can use some of those, I think they'll be great.
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:51.840
Yeah.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:02.960
And honestly, pretty much every kid lit author that I visited with, at least, has always mentioned SCBWI.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:08.960
And for anybody who doesn't know what that stands for, it's the society of uh, why do I always mess it up?
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.280
It's a society of children's children's books, writers and illustrators.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:15.519
Children's books, writers and illustrators.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.159
Thank you.
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:16.719
Thank you.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:23.440
So definitely something I always include in the show notes so that you, as a listener, you can go look and look into it for yourself.
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:34.239
Find and often belonging to those places leads to finding the community of writers that you're talking about.
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.599
Because I'm sure that people are out there listening, going, that's nice.
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:41.039
She's got a group of women, they get together once a month.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.840
How could I ever find that for myself?
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.639
I have been in that seat where I think that exact same thing.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:52.559
And truly, it's by being a part of something that you meet other people that are a part of something.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:53.679
Yes.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:54.800
That's exactly right.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:09.119
I actually was introduced through SCBWI to my group because they put out a call that if you're interested in a writer's group, then send an email to such a person and then that person connected people based on geographic location or whatever grade level, or that's literally how the group came about.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:17.599
So SCBWI, I cannot speak highly enough of just the resources and opportunities that I think that they provide.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.239
And yeah, so grateful to them.
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.519
That group is amazing.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:23.280
But I felt the same way.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:39.119
And I will just say that before joining FCBW, or sorry, before joining my I had joined SCBWI, but I had joined the writers' group in the first maybe 20 to 2020, frankly, when I joined to join the group, it was really hard because this can't be done in a vacuum.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.079
And having that accountability structure is really helpful.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.280
Obviously, the friendships that developing that are just priceless.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:51.440
And yeah, I really do think that maybe there's some people who can do writing in it on their own, and that's more power to them.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.840
But I think the vast majority of us really benefit from doing it in community with others.
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.239
Yeah, I agree with you 100%.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:05.599
I ask every guest who comes on the podcast, what wish would you like to impart to your fellow writers?
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:13.840
I hope that you can complete the thing that you want to complete, right?
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:25.280
If it's that query letter, if it's your most recent edit, if it's writing the book itself, I hope that you're able to accomplish the goal that you have set out for yourself.
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.679
And that goal will look different for each person because we're in different parts of the journey.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.599
But know that you can do it.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:40.320
And uh and I sincerely hope that whatever goals you set out for yourself, that you're able to accomplish it and also take a lot of pride and joy in doing it.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:41.199
Beautiful.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.400
Thank you so much.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:47.360
Would you please share anything that you're currently working on that you would like others to know about?
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.480
And then where can listeners find you?
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.000
And of course, your middle grade novel, Zaina Lost and Found.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:54.960
Yeah.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:59.599
So currently working on a few projects, still middle grade.
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.519
One is contemporary and one is historical fiction, but TVD on both.
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.800
I'm moving a little bit faster on the historical fiction one.
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:12.239
So I'm excited to just see where it goes, but no news to announce just yet.
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:17.280
Follow me on my Instagram, which is Chefek underscore Han underscore author.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.559
Apparently, there's other Chevrolets, Stacey, just FYI.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:21.920
I would probably get to know them.
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:27.679
And also on TikTok, Chefekjk, my website, shabbachon.com.
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:32.320
These are all great places, but I would say Instagram is probably the place that I update the most.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.480
And just in terms of where you can find my book, it's now I don't even know, a lot of libraries.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:37.840
Yeah, so that's really cool.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:39.760
Support your local bookstore.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.719
That's a number one, bookshop.org.
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:46.559
And of course, if your local bookstore actually has an odd shelf, that'd be really awesome.
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.239
And then it is also available on Barnes and Noble and Amazon.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.039
So if that floats your both, that's cool too.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:53.679
All right.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.320
I will make sure to include all those links in the show notes.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:04.320
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, for sharing your really beautiful journey with us and just being so open and honest.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.119
A lot of people will benefit from it, a lot of writers.
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:08.480
So thank you again.
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:19.840
Thank you so much for having the space for writers to come on and talk a little bit about their journey because I know that I would have benefited from hearing from someone who'd gone through it.
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:26.719
And so thank you so much for making this resource available to aspiring and published writers.
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:28.800
Yeah, we're all in it together, right?
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:29.679
We're all in it together.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:30.159
Yes.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:30.639
Yeah.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:31.840
Thanks, Dacey.
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.000
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:40.800
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.480
And please leave a review.
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:49.199
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:50.559
Let's lift each other up.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:53.599
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.360
I'll see you next week.
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:12.640
When there were still a lot of open questions and things that I that were beyond my control in the world around me or my personal life, I felt like this book and this story grounded me.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:22.160
And but I think the way that I might have grown in is that I have learned to listen to my own voice a little bit more.
00:00:23.039 --> 00:00:25.280
Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:00:25.440 --> 00:00:34.560
I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formally repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach.
00:00:34.799 --> 00:00:42.079
At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories.
00:00:42.240 --> 00:00:50.320
The one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it.
00:00:50.560 --> 00:01:02.079
This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully.
00:01:02.320 --> 00:01:10.079
Join me each week for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers.
00:01:10.319 --> 00:01:13.680
Writing a novel is an inside job that we do not do alone.
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:15.359
Welcome to Reddit Scared.
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I'm glad you're here.
00:01:16.560 --> 00:01:17.840
Let's dive in.
00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:20.239
Hi, writer.
00:01:20.319 --> 00:01:22.000
Welcome back to the Reddit Scared Podcast.
00:01:22.079 --> 00:01:29.760
I'm your host, Stacey, and this is where we talk about the brave and the messy act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more confidence, more clarity, not feel so alone.
00:01:29.920 --> 00:01:31.519
Today's a guest episode.
00:01:31.680 --> 00:01:38.719
And I'm so excited to introduce you to Sheffik Khan, author of the debut middle grade novel, Zena Lost and Found.
00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:45.680
And this is a conversation about writing stories that explore identity, belonging, and adventure through the lens of historical fiction.
00:01:45.840 --> 00:02:02.480
We talk about the inspiration behind the novel, the real life history that shaped the story, and what it was like to balance all the research and what to put on the page with the action adventure slash mystery plot, as well as the emotional character growth.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:16.000
We dig into the long road to publication and how to handle difficult editorial feedback, give tips on ways to build community, and talk about how to learn to trust yourself as a writer.
00:02:16.240 --> 00:02:32.319
So if you've ever struggled through revisions or you're writing and you feel alone, questioned whether your story was working, or you just need a reminder that your growth as a writer happens one messy draft at a time and you just need to keep going, this episode is for you.
00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:36.080
Let me give you Shafek's bio and then we'll jump into the interview.
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:39.840
Shafek Khan is a middle-grade author, lawyer, and mom.
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Born to Pakistani parents, Shafak grew up in a small port city along the Persian Gulf called Jubal Industry City, a place that barely makes it onto most maps, but it would shape her worldview and forever cement her identity as a third culture kid.
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:59.520
It is there that Shafek discovered the world of books at her school's magical library.
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She attended college in New York City, majoring in political science in Middle Eastern and Asian languages and cultures before heading to law school.
00:03:07.199 --> 00:03:17.120
After law school, Shafecht worked for nearly a decade as a legal services attorney representing low-income people with disabilities facing housing and benefit issues.
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In this role, Shafek became acquainted with people's stories, the ones they tell and the ones they don't, and learned to listen to the story beneath the surface.
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Hello, Shafek.
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Thank you so much for coming on the Ride It Scared podcast.
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I'm delighted to have you here to talk about your debut middle grade novel, Zaina, Lost and Found.
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So we're going to get into that and just talk about your writing process and your journey.
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So, but before we do, would you please share with our listeners how you came to be a writer yourself and a published author.
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Thank you so much for having me on Writed Scared Stacey.
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I'm so excited to talk a little bit more about, frankly, the most uncomfortable parts about this journey and to get it all out there.
00:03:58.719 --> 00:04:01.199
So really excited to dive into that with you.
00:04:01.439 --> 00:04:07.680
My journey, I think, started on, started off pretty early because I think even when I was younger, I loved books.
00:04:07.759 --> 00:04:14.960
Uh, avid reader, just devoured series after series, like Judy Balloon, Babysitter's Club, Nancy Drew, like anything.
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I just was totally a series girly and loved reading.
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If I got bored, I read, I was done with whatever, exhausted whatever was in-house, I actually would write a lot.
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And that actually started on the earlier side of my life.
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I would say by the age of 10, I was writing something for fun.
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And I think when I continued on in high school with a lot of encouragement from those high school teachers that are just really inspiring, give you the right amount of feedback on also how to improve, the positive feedback to build your confidence.
00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:49.920
I got real lucky on that, both my sophomore and junior year with AP classes.
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And then in college, I feel like I had an opportunity as a liberal arts major to delve in deeper, but obviously in a different kind of way, but continue my writing, building my writing skills.
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:13.839
And then I came back to fiction after becoming a lawyer and realizing that I wanted to put something out there in the world that was a way for me to discuss my point of view on things.
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And so I think I feel very lucky to have had the opportunity to write fiction.
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I viewed it as an escape from a lot of the exacting parts of being a legal services attorney.
00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:44.560
At that time, I was advocating for tenants who had disabilities and were being evicted from their affordable housing and had an opportunity to learn more about their stories and then advocate on the basis of those stories in front of a judge to help keep them in their homes.
00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:53.519
And it was sort of, I was, I didn't realize it at the time, but I think my ability to write fiction was actually honed from being a lawyer.
00:05:53.680 --> 00:05:59.360
I really do feel like being able to tell someone else's story is what you're doing ultimately when you're writing fiction.
00:05:59.439 --> 00:06:01.839
And that's also what I was doing as a legal services attorney.
00:06:01.920 --> 00:06:14.319
So I was really excited to have developed the skills through work to apply it to my fiction writing, but also viewed it as an escape from the harsh realities of poverty lawyering.
00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:19.439
And I think just in terms of becoming a published author, that's a whole other story.
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So I'm happy to dive into that.
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But we'll get into that.
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We'll get into that.
00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:25.759
Amazing, amazing.
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So clearly, early love of reading.
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I think in your bio you referenced that there was a magical library where you grew up.
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So clearly it's this has always been near and dear to your heart.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:40.560
And then, yeah, so let's talk a little bit about your book.
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So Xena Lost and Found, which was released last September.
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We're recording in January of 2026.
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So September of 2025.
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So congratulations.
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It's a beautiful book.
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It has such a beautiful cover.
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It looks like such a fun story, and the blurb is very fun too.
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So why don't you share with us what inspired you to write that particular story?
00:07:04.000 --> 00:07:11.439
And then we'll talk a little bit about going into the publication of that, what it took to write it and get it published.
00:07:11.759 --> 00:07:12.160
Yeah.
00:07:12.720 --> 00:07:22.000
So this Susanna Lost and Found is a historical fiction adventure featuring a 12-year-old British Backsani girl in the year 1970.
00:07:22.240 --> 00:07:31.920
And she's somebody who feels like not exactly a fit anywhere, like in school or even in her own home in many ways.
00:07:32.240 --> 00:07:47.120
And part of what she does to cope is really let her imagination run wild about mysteries that don't really exist for the most part, and solving those mysteries and playing detective until a real mystery does come her way.
00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:53.040
And she happens upon strange mandates following her and her parents.
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And then when they leave their home in London for holiday in Pakistan, things get more spicy, no pun intended.
00:08:02.959 --> 00:08:22.079
And when they reach Pakistan soon after being there, you can things are getting a little bit, still a little bit uh piquing her spidey senses, and she's wondering why people are acting a little bit strangely, or there's certain information that she's getting that about a stolen jewel and how it might be tied to frankly the strange man that has been following her.
00:08:22.319 --> 00:08:24.160
And then her parents disappear.
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.319
And so that's where we have the the event that really shapes the rest of the book.
00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:44.879
Because then Zaina has to figure out why her parents disappeared and also clear their name in the process because part of their disappearance is that they have been accused of stealing this precious jewel that she had been reading about all this time.
00:08:45.120 --> 00:09:05.600
And so, as part of that, she ends up embarking on this journey that frankly is unfathomable to us sitting here in January 2026, where she safely traverses parts of northern Pakistan, enters Aranistan, goes to Gabul, goes to Tehran, and then ends up in Istanbul.
00:09:05.759 --> 00:09:11.279
And that is made possible also by a real route called the Hippie Trail.
00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:20.720
And I think I was just so intrigued by this idea of the Hippie Trail because of the fact that it's something that I would never have imagined could even exist, right?
00:09:20.799 --> 00:09:27.039
This idea of crossing borders safely, having these cultures be like accessible to you.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.679
And I mean that frankly more financially and also logistically through overland transportation.
00:09:33.919 --> 00:09:42.879
And I know that this is something that existed and that a lot of travelers went on because obviously it's a very well-documented phenomenon.
00:09:42.960 --> 00:09:45.360
And I can talk a little bit more about my research later.
00:09:45.600 --> 00:09:50.639
But also, my mother-in-law, who herself is British Pakistani, actually also took this trip.
00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:56.000
So she in the early 70s, it wasn't the year 1970, and I can talk about why I chose that year in particular.
00:09:56.159 --> 00:10:02.320
But in the 70s, her and her family had to drive back from Pakistan to their home in London.
00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:03.759
And they made that trip.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:09.279
Family of five, youngest one was under a year old, and they made that trip safely.
00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:13.519
And she talks a lot about what she observed about these different cultures and cities.
00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:18.879
And so I thought this would be really amazing to capture a moment in time in a lot of these locations.
00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:28.639
And then also, I think, talk more about Zaina's internal journey as well, as someone who is very much views herself as being British, but also about Cassani.
00:10:29.200 --> 00:10:29.679
Wow.
00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:30.720
Oh my gosh.
00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:37.840
It sounds sounds like there's so much of real life that inspired pieces of this that drew you maybe into what you researched.
00:10:38.000 --> 00:10:39.120
That's really cool.
00:10:39.360 --> 00:10:39.600
Yeah.
00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:46.559
And wow, that's a lot to pack into for an adventure hold for a 12-year-old girl.
00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:48.720
Whoa, that's amazing.
00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:53.679
And there has to be some suspension of belief, I think, overall in some ways, right?
00:10:53.919 --> 00:10:57.919
But I think I think it's yes, exactly, right?
00:10:58.080 --> 00:11:00.000
But the underlying facts are the same, right?
00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:08.960
The underlying factual reality of taking these routes, taking this train, staying in this hostel, these are all based on real, real aspects of the hippie trail, right?
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:13.840
What were the what was a hostel's name in in Tehran that hippies would frequent?
00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:16.879
And what were the restaurants that they would visit in Kabul?
00:11:17.120 --> 00:11:20.559
Or how did they enter this one part out of northern Pakistan?
00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:21.679
And what did they do there, right?
00:11:21.759 --> 00:11:23.679
And so these are actually all based in reality.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:30.320
But yes, this idea of a 12-year-old navigating that is a lot, but who wants adults, anyways, right?
00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:32.159
If we're trying to figure out a mystery, right?
00:11:32.320 --> 00:11:36.480
Children certainly do not want adults speaking to them through their stories.
00:11:36.639 --> 00:11:38.799
It's that we we don't want any of this.
00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:41.200
Children don't want any finger wagging or whatever.
00:11:41.440 --> 00:12:00.159
So yeah, would you mind sharing just a little bit about the what was the process like of gosh, going back in time and weeding through all that research and deciding what to include, what to leave out, and how to keep the entertainment, the action impact front and center?
00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:11.279
Because that's really what's driving the story is it sounds like this girl is she's in an unfamiliar place, having to solve a mystery, find her parents, clear their name.
00:12:12.080 --> 00:12:13.519
That's a lot, right?
00:12:13.679 --> 00:12:15.600
That how'd you go about that doing that?
00:12:16.000 --> 00:12:32.080
I love this question because it's a really perceptive question, perceptive framing of the question when you ask me what did I include and what I didn't include, because that's such a that is exactly the question people should ask be asking about even our history books, probably, but especially historical fiction, because it's not meant to be a history book.
00:12:32.159 --> 00:12:48.799
And so you can't really cover all the bases, but and especially if you are focused on the action and propelling the plot along based on the action, then you might be able to give some context of certain dynamics, and other times you can delve into it a little bit more.
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:58.480
And so there is a lot of, I think, my own probably biases for what I did want to feature and what I may not have wanted to feature as much or what I couldn't feature, right?
00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:05.919
Some of it is just again, my nine-year-old, 10, 9, 10-year-olds, even eight-year-olds that might be reading this book, might be more interested in the plot.
00:13:06.080 --> 00:13:14.879
And then I think my slightly older readers, like the 12, the 13-year-olds, like they can probably pick up some of these historical or political contexts, hopefully, or at least spark a conversation.
00:13:15.200 --> 00:13:21.279
There is back matter as well to provide some additional color to some of the locations that Zayna visited.
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:22.879
But I think that's exactly right.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:30.320
So I think firstly, just reading books that provided a good overview of what the hippie trail entailed.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:38.399
And there's one that in particular called with by Rory McLean that I just loved that kind of gets into like country by country, city by city.
00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:42.960
What were not just what were the places like in terms of what would people be doing?
00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:49.600
What would someone who's on a budget, who's unfamiliar with their cultural surroundings, where would they go eat, right?
00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:56.399
But also more uncomfortable aspects of those of that travel, which is that sometimes people will get sick from the food.
00:13:56.639 --> 00:13:59.279
Sometimes there was like cultural disconnect.
00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:07.120
Sometimes you might be sleeping on the road because you're you did stretch your budget out, or because of the context of it being 1970, people will get lost, right?
00:14:07.279 --> 00:14:11.919
Like straight lost, which is just like a wild set of dynamics to consider.
00:14:12.080 --> 00:14:29.679
And so I think I always initially when I started this project, I was enjoying the research almost too much because again, reading the book through the books that provided some overview about the hippie trail, which I'm also happy to share and link, but also actually about a British Pakistani spy, which I'm also happy to link.
00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.200
But um I think those gave me really good macro understanding.
00:14:33.279 --> 00:15:03.200
And then pouring over again documented aspects of this travel through blog entries, photos, and letters exchanged between travelers was also another way to, again, flesh out what it felt like to be someone who is European, navigating a the flat terrains of central Afghanistan and but happening upon like an untouched, beautiful, natural wonder and what you would do in that situation.
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:09.679
So I think a couple of things that come to mind when I think about what I would include, but what I may not have included.
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:25.679
One of the important characters in the book is based on a real life poet who was imprisoned during during that time by the Shah of Iran because he was critical of what the Shah's like economic policies were and whatnot.
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.159
And so there's a whole character that's based on this poet.
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:30.480
And again, that matter kind of gets into this a little bit more.
00:15:30.559 --> 00:15:32.399
And so I encourage people to take a look at it.
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:35.759
But that's somebody who I dedicate a whole character to.
00:15:36.080 --> 00:15:41.200
But there were also other indications that protests were there's an undercurrents of protests happening.
00:15:41.440 --> 00:16:01.279
Zaina and Maher and Amin are the three main characters of the book, walk through a bazaar in Tehran and notice that the merchants aren't there, that a lot of the shops are shuttered because they're on strike and that the Haran bazaris were viewed as like a litmus test of what the people were feeling about the economic state of affairs.
00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:03.200
And that, by the way, is still true.
00:16:03.360 --> 00:16:08.080
I think that the bazaaris are a play a very critical role in Iranian society on that front.
00:16:08.159 --> 00:16:16.399
And so, anyway, so that's like an example of something that I didn't really get into, but they note that people are that the shops aren't open and there's a reason for that, right?
00:16:16.639 --> 00:16:22.559
But again, I did balance that out with perhaps a character that does provide a more incomplete.
00:16:22.720 --> 00:16:23.279
Yeah, exactly.
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:32.720
So I think there's like a lot of your what sparks your interest, but also balancing again, moving the action forward and not making it a travel log, right?
00:16:32.799 --> 00:16:35.519
Because that's not what kids want to read.
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:40.960
Yeah, I'm just thinking about all the elements of conflict that are natural to the story.
00:16:41.200 --> 00:16:46.000
There's environmental conflict, social and economic and political conflict here.
00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:49.840
You probably have some conflict between your characters just because of personality.
00:16:49.919 --> 00:16:57.840
And then you also have the antagonistic character player, whoever is doing the bad thing or creating the mystery of the puzzle.
00:16:58.159 --> 00:16:59.360
So wow.
00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.279
Yeah, that is a lot.
00:17:01.440 --> 00:17:05.759
So when did you first get the idea for this particular story?
00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.720
And what was the writing process like for you?
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:09.440
Yeah.
00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.319
So I knew the the con the background, right?
00:17:12.400 --> 00:17:18.640
I knew that when it was gonna be set, and I knew I needed to do world building around that uh to flesh out the historical context.
00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:26.400
In terms of the actual adventure story, I almost feel like that did come a little bit later in some ways and much more organically.
00:17:26.480 --> 00:17:29.200
I started off with a one-page plot.
00:17:29.359 --> 00:17:32.720
It was like, what do I want Zanep to be doing?
00:17:32.880 --> 00:17:34.240
And how do I want to get there?
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.640
And I I really enjoy international conspiracy and spy stuff.
00:17:38.880 --> 00:17:39.440
Big fan of that.
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:41.359
Love study spies, for example.
00:17:41.519 --> 00:17:50.480
To me, then that's my my go-to genre that I will consume, both in terms of books and also in terms of show TV content.
00:17:50.640 --> 00:17:53.599
I I love John Lacarr, I love shows that are based on John Lacar.
00:17:53.759 --> 00:18:00.000
It's just I think a really rich way to talk about a mystery and add that element to it.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:08.079
So I think that just that outline I was looking at actually in preparation for this podcast, it does not resemble the book today.
00:18:08.559 --> 00:18:18.720
So that's all to say that you can write the book in that after you do the outline, you do a chapter outline, and maybe you also do a storyboard and you actually just start writing.
00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:19.680
I think that's really important.
00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.799
Just start writing, get and put pen to paper, so to speak.
00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:28.319
But that editing process will make will change whatever you wherever you started off from.
00:18:28.400 --> 00:18:30.400
It will change it quite dramatically.
00:18:30.480 --> 00:18:31.519
And I think that's good.
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:34.960
So I think I had too many adult characters, for example, in the beginning.
00:18:35.119 --> 00:18:38.960
I think some of the action was not as it was not earlier on enough.
00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:49.759
Sometimes it there was like too much focus on, frankly, the maybe the historical context I wanted to paint or the geographic descriptions I was getting, and we needed to add some more action back into it, right?
00:18:49.839 --> 00:18:54.799
So I think there was actually, again, for me, a little bit easier to write more about the what I was researching.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:19:01.839
Maybe that was almost maybe the lawyerslash Paul poli sci person and me bringing that, being really interested in that.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:16.480
But actually writing fiction, the story about Zaina and how she's being chased in these stories in different instances by the bad guy, or how she's uncovering clues, that was an interesting and tricky thing to make sure that I had enough of, right?
00:19:16.559 --> 00:19:21.039
And I would just describe my process again as being highly iterative and a lot of editing.
00:19:21.440 --> 00:19:29.519
And also I think just keeping my eyes and ears open for when inspiration stuck, because sometimes it wasn't necessarily when I was at my laptop writing.
00:19:29.680 --> 00:19:35.440
Sometimes it was when I was on a walk or you're talking to someone and they mentioned something and that makes you think about something else.
00:19:35.519 --> 00:19:38.720
And maybe there's again some other content that you consume.
00:19:38.799 --> 00:19:45.039
And so then you were like, okay, this is an interesting sort of thing that I might want to include, or this aspect of it I might want to put in for the action.
00:19:45.200 --> 00:19:58.319
And so I think I hope I answered your question, but I think again, it was a very roundabout way that I did the action part of it, but I do feel like fleshing out the world building was a little, frankly, for me, a little bit more straightforward.
00:19:58.559 --> 00:19:58.960
Yeah.
00:19:59.279 --> 00:20:00.880
So it definitely sounds like you understood.
00:20:02.160 --> 00:20:04.400
The where and the when.
00:20:05.039 --> 00:20:05.519
Yeah.
00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.480
And the how came later.
00:20:09.440 --> 00:20:10.880
Did you always know the who?
00:20:11.119 --> 00:20:16.160
I guess my question is is well, what made you decide to write this from a 12-year-old girl's perspective?
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:18.480
Yeah, that's a such a good question.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:23.279
I didn't always know who because I kind of wanted her to be a little bit older.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:29.920
And I felt like that was more realistic for her to be maybe 15, 16 and doing this, these hijes.
00:20:30.400 --> 00:20:31.839
At some point, they're like in an embassy.
00:20:31.920 --> 00:20:33.680
Now they've essentially broken into an empty.
00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:39.920
I think I was reading books that were in that were comps, right?
00:20:40.079 --> 00:20:47.119
Whenever I felt like there was I needed a break from what I was writing, I naturally just kept on the reading front, right?
00:20:47.200 --> 00:20:49.359
Because again, you never know when inspiration might strike.
00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:52.799
And also I feel you should look at people's art, right?
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:55.839
You should look at how other people are refining their craft.
00:20:56.079 --> 00:21:09.200
And I noticed that there was an opportunity in at that stage, that 12-year-old, that 11, 12-year-old stage, where you're not as maybe aware of everything, but you are becoming aware.
00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:20.000
And also that there's like, of course, like of this like coming of age like part of it that felt like actually ripe for a lot of internal development.
00:21:20.240 --> 00:21:35.680
And also, I think probably reflecting back on my own personal experience, like I do think being 11-12 was particularly challenging because you were finding your footing with in school, with your friends, again, with your own family, maybe.
00:21:35.920 --> 00:21:51.839
And I think it's a nice opportunity to capture that audience and let them know hopefully through this character Zaina, that if you have felt like an outsider, that is a like normal part of the that is part of the human existence.
00:21:52.079 --> 00:22:15.279
And that what I hope they take away from this, which I think Zaina does, is that despite feeling unless you're Moored at many many junctures, not feeling British enough, not feeling Pakistani enough, not feeling like she knows enough about her family, not knowing where her place is with her friends or with her mom and dad or with even her siblings, that ultimately she keeps choosing to belong.
00:22:15.440 --> 00:22:17.200
That ultimately she keeps thinking, you know what?
00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.680
I do belong in maybe all these places, these spaces.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:23.440
Because what I want people to take away from this is that everyone deserves to belong.
00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:30.480
And especially again, I want that message to go through to this particular age range of readers.
00:22:30.799 --> 00:22:31.359
I love that.
00:22:31.440 --> 00:22:40.000
Yeah, I find middle grade fiction in this that a little upper middle grade fiction, it's often about like I did your changing.
00:22:40.160 --> 00:22:43.599
And I have a nine-year-old, so I'm like witnessing this.
00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:59.039
It's like you're changing more societal pressure is coming in, and it's it's like defining who you are within the relationship of your family in a way that is different than it has been before.
00:22:59.279 --> 00:23:14.079
And then, of course, like I I love the kind of what I like to call the through line of desire, the internal desire for the character is about belonging, where the external goal for your character is about solving the mystery, finding her parents.
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:24.000
And because she has to go through this, she finds out something about herself, you know, that that creates a bit of a not a reckoning, but uh another level of awareness or acceptance.
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:24.559
I love that.
00:23:24.640 --> 00:23:25.599
That's so beautiful.
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.039
So beautiful.
00:23:27.279 --> 00:23:28.160
Oh my gosh.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:32.079
When did you get the spark for this story idea?
00:23:32.640 --> 00:23:33.279
Do you recall?
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:38.480
I want to say it's probably early 2018, like January, February of 2018.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:39.359
Took a while.
00:23:40.240 --> 00:23:40.960
Yeah, stories do.
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:44.559
They take a while to bake, especially when you're juggling life.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:23:45.839
Right?
00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:47.440
There's always the life.
00:23:47.759 --> 00:23:49.839
There's earlier reasons not to be doing it, right?
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:50.880
To be doing something else.
00:23:50.960 --> 00:23:52.000
Um absolutely.
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:52.640
Absolutely.
00:23:52.720 --> 00:23:56.720
But I'm so glad that you did because now we have this beautiful story in the world.
00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:04.799
So, what was the path to publication like once you got the draft to the place where it was ready to be looked at through other eyes?
00:24:05.200 --> 00:24:05.920
Did you query?
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:07.279
How was the query process?
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:17.200
So I have a very non-traditional query story querying story, which is that I did query and that just fell flat on its face.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:27.440
And that's again totally normal and disheartening, which is also want to normalize that feeling of feeling like you're pushing against the wall a little bit, frankly.
00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:36.400
And then I had an introduction to someone, and that unlocked a conversation with my now agent.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:46.960
And I just it's a good example of why being, for example, a member of SCBWI or at other groups is really important because you never know when you might get introduced to someone.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:48.960
Sometimes you'll have agent spotlights.
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:54.799
I definitely got my manuscript reviewed by agents whenever I could, even before I had an agent.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:11.359
And then, and it was really through that process that I again had this introduction and was able to get it in front of someone in a way that, again, with a warm introduction, I'm not sure without the warm introduction, sorry, I'm not sure I would have been able to even get eyes on it, right?
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:14.559
That's really the tricky part about querying because you really want them to get eyes on it.
00:25:14.640 --> 00:25:17.839
And my querying process was a little bit not traditional from that perspective.
00:25:18.000 --> 00:25:31.359
And then once I had the agent, he we obviously went on sub and pitched it to publishers and was getting a lot of, I got like maybe 18, 19 rejections, and none of them were giving me good feedback about what.
00:25:31.599 --> 00:25:40.559
In fact, they were just like great boys, love the story, but there were things like we are doing something similar, or we don't we don't know about historical fiction.
00:25:40.640 --> 00:25:43.039
This was a big historical fiction was also tricky.
00:25:43.119 --> 00:25:49.279
They're like middle grade market is tricky, and then historical fiction is even more tricky, and so there was some of that feedback.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:54.799
There was one feedback that I did incorporate, which was like, what do you think about actually making this in present tense?
00:25:55.039 --> 00:26:00.720
And so I did spend some time because with going on sub, they go in rounds.
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:09.519
And so between rounds, I did make that change because when I tried it for a few pages, I really liked how it frankly propelled the action forward as well.
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:12.160
And it made you feel it in a more palpable way.
00:26:12.319 --> 00:26:14.079
Yeah, it feels more meeting, exactly.
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:15.680
So that was like one thing that I did.
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:18.160
And then honestly, I got I got matched with Learner.
00:26:18.240 --> 00:26:23.759
And the key thing with my editor at Learner is that she just got this book from the beginning.
00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:31.680
I I really feel like when she gave the feedback for why she wanted to buy the book, it was exactly what I wanted to hear.
00:26:31.839 --> 00:26:40.319
She was like, I love Zayna, I love how she's navigating her relationships and how she had this internal journey as she's like now, everything that you're saying, but she was saying.
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:48.000
And so just this feeling of having your work be seen, like truly you feel seen, it was incredible.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:55.680
And so then once learner bought the book, the patent publication took a while, to be honest, because it was like almost two years.
00:26:56.319 --> 00:26:58.640
I it sold in June 2023.
00:26:58.799 --> 00:27:07.200
I went on sub in like fall of 2022, sold in June 2023, and then it was published in September 2025.
00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:13.680
So during that process from like three to 25, there was some editing, but thankfully not a ton.
00:27:13.839 --> 00:27:19.759
I there there was no major structural difference changes, no characters were killed off, which I was worried.
00:27:19.920 --> 00:27:21.440
I'd heard that was a thing that could happen.
00:27:21.519 --> 00:27:22.559
So I was like worried.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:24.880
But um, I was really grateful for that.
00:27:25.119 --> 00:27:30.480
And then about a year out from September 2025, it basically goes to print, so to speak.
00:27:30.559 --> 00:27:32.000
And so you can't touch it after that point.
00:27:32.160 --> 00:27:33.599
Maybe there's a little bit less than a year.
00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:36.559
But, anyways, that's roughly what my path was like.
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.000
Thank you for sharing that.
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:44.880
I just I love to hear the journey of how an idea becomes a book and how it's so different for everyone.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:59.519
And my hope is for people listening, if you're listening, listen up, is that just because it's a lengthy process doesn't make it that does that doesn't mean anything.
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:13.920
Sometimes I think we get so focused on the one that's gonna make it, or is this the book that we're gonna that it just books take what they take to bring to fruition, is my point.
00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.599
And so I just love that you shared your journey.
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:33.920
And that, and I feel like I totally agree, first of all, everything you're just saying, because I think that's the tricky part about writing a book, because there are so many moments to exit out of it because you feel like this is taking too long, it's not gonna happen, and I need to come back to it too often.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:37.440
There's I've moved, I've maybe I've had a kid, maybe something else has happened.
00:28:37.599 --> 00:28:42.319
And so I completely agree with you that that five-year period from 2018 to 2020.
00:28:42.640 --> 00:28:44.079
Oh, maybe that's my mouth is wrong.
00:28:44.240 --> 00:28:45.920
2018 to 2022 is four years.
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:53.279
It was really, there was a lot of points where I was like, I think I'm just gonna shelf this, think about it another time.
00:28:53.519 --> 00:29:05.839
And I'm really glad that I kept at it because the feeling of meeting someone who has read my book, especially I love adult readers because they can articulate like what their feet like what their expression is in a different way.
00:29:06.160 --> 00:29:16.960
But young girls, boys, like that has been like one of the most moving aspects of this that I don't think I was fully prepared for.
00:29:17.200 --> 00:29:19.279
You know, I get emotional hearing from people.
00:29:19.359 --> 00:29:21.039
I'm like, like that character.
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:22.160
Oh my gosh, you like that.
00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:24.720
It's just like it's it's so I love it.
00:29:24.960 --> 00:29:25.599
So keep at it.
00:29:25.680 --> 00:29:54.640
Yeah, that's a nice tie-in, actually, a good segue to talking about kind of the heart of the what the podcast is about, the Write It's Scared Podcast, is talking about times when the writing got hard, but when there were struggles during either a writing phase of the book or just in the waiting phases of the waiting phases, because there are a lot of waiting phases once once we've brought something to to the end game, and then we're trying to get it out in the world.
00:29:54.880 --> 00:30:00.799
So can you think of a time of when you struggled and what that was like and what helped you move on or move forward?
00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:19.759
I was just lucky to have a lot of beta readers of people who were just in my orbit, friends, family, friends, kids, even who were willing to just read this book, which is I don't know, I still find it like a wildly kind thing to do because some of those drafts were terrible.
00:30:20.319 --> 00:30:29.440
There was one particular feedback that I got, and it was uh again, really trusted friend, and it was late in the process.
00:30:29.599 --> 00:30:39.920
So I want to say kind of frankly, then early 2022, and I went on sub in late 2022, and it was just like the edit was kind of got to the main aspect of the thing.
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.359
She was like, I don't really get it.
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:47.759
What are they, what where what are they gonna, what's the what's sort of what are they trying to solve for?
00:30:48.079 --> 00:30:56.160
The these clues are really difficult to parse, but maybe this is also just me and how I never follow other mysteries, like when I watched them.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:00.480
She was kind of joking around that maybe it's and I couldn't unsee that.
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:11.119
And that was very hard because it I did a pretty big rewrite, frankly, including getting rid of some adult characters that had somehow lingered on until that point.
00:31:11.200 --> 00:31:21.839
And many of them had already uh had written them out, but there was definitely still one that was left that I adored, but I had to just take them out.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:34.559
And then there were a few other adult characters that I had to make less important to the action and making the action happen that it wasn't driven by my 12-year-old and her trusted companions.
00:31:34.799 --> 00:31:36.400
So that was, I think, really tricky.
00:31:36.480 --> 00:31:45.519
But just this idea that the plot may not make sense, and it was I had been working on something for years at that point, writer's circle, other beta readers.
00:31:45.599 --> 00:31:48.640
I joined a workshop at Stanford, you know, those writing workshops.
00:31:48.720 --> 00:31:53.119
So I had that some editing route that way, not the whole book, parts of it.
00:31:53.359 --> 00:31:56.079
But this idea of getting that feedback was really difficult.
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:58.880
I had to just step away from it, to be completely honest.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:00.880
Did not look at that feedback.
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:06.240
Then I went back and I organized the feedback with a lot of intentionality.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:13.119
So, first looking at what was the overall plot feedback, then what was the chapter feedback, and then just going in line by line.
00:32:13.279 --> 00:32:19.119
And I think it it really helped to take breaks, but it was, again, really difficult to come back to it.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:36.799
And I do think having this organized way to make sure my plot is clearly delineated in a way that a reader could follow that made sense, that was moving forward, the right amount of momentum, but also good sort of conclusions of any loose threads, all that was really challenging.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:43.839
And I did actually do a storyboard, another storyboard basically, so late in the process after this feedback.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:44.319
Oh my gosh.
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:51.359
Just thinking about it, it actually is traumatizing me because I'm like, oh my gosh, it was it was just it was just totally wild.
00:32:51.599 --> 00:33:04.319
And then just on the post-publication side, I think the post-publication part of it has been the challenging part of it has been, frankly, doing some of the PR and getting the book out there on social media in particular.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:21.599
I think it is something that I had to, I'm still working on, but like it took a while for me to even just create my author account, make it public, all that, put yourself out there, which as a millennial, like I had was not as willing to do that.
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:30.559
And but I think I found my lane and I have to I've like dabbled with TikTok and Instagram reels enough that like hopefully I'm putting out coherent content now at least.
00:33:30.640 --> 00:33:36.240
I just need to increase frequency, which is that's very challenging because to your point, life happens.
00:33:36.400 --> 00:33:45.119
And at least when you have a book that you're writing, feel like you're getting something from it, it's improving your focus, it's helping you think about a story.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:48.799
And I don't know, you just feel like productive and engaged and whatever.
00:33:49.119 --> 00:34:02.640
Being on social media and worrying about my next post, I still struggle with finding that or viewing that as like productive to my like overall well-being.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:14.960
I get that it's good for the book, but um, but I also spoke to an author, a published author, like at some point during this process when I was waiting for frankly between like rounds and submission process, and that was agonizing.
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:16.639
No one prepares me for that late.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.840
And she was saying that she opted out of all social media, and she was like, you gotta find your own voice, and it's okay to opt out of all social media.
00:34:24.000 --> 00:34:27.360
So I think that might not have been exactly what my lane was.
00:34:27.440 --> 00:34:30.719
Like when I spoke to her, it was like really reassuring that's an option.
00:34:30.800 --> 00:34:33.519
I maybe needed to hear that was an option and that you could be okay.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:41.920
But I think finding my lane on on my sort of public presence has been challenging in that post-publication period.
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:49.840
And but I'm working on it, also a work in progress and giving myself some grace because I'm a long way from where I was maybe six months ago on this.
00:34:49.920 --> 00:34:51.119
So I did.
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:53.039
I can't imagine.
00:34:53.199 --> 00:34:54.320
And I loved what you shared.
00:34:54.400 --> 00:35:02.159
That was such a beautiful tip to organize feedback based to plot level feedback, chapter level feedback, line level feedback.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:08.559
So at least you have a way that you can sink into it in a system, perhaps a more systematic way.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:09.119
Yes.
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.679
And just going, oh my gosh, what do I do with all of this?
00:35:11.840 --> 00:35:12.159
All right.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.679
So this has been a long process to bring this book to fruition.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:18.239
What have you learned about yourself and your writing process?
00:35:18.400 --> 00:35:21.280
What's your takeaway from all of this when you step back?
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.360
I really actually enjoyed the misery of having this hang over my head.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:31.679
Because therein lies the reason you are a writer.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:36.159
I think this idea it grounded me in so many ways.
00:35:36.400 --> 00:35:40.079
When that you felt like the world was upside down in different ways.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:42.719
Pandemic, post-pandemic, right?
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:56.079
Like when there were still a lot of open questions and things that I that were beyond my control in the world around me or my personal life, I felt like this book and this story grounded me.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:36:05.280
And but I think the way that I might have grown in is that I uh have learned to listen to my own voice a little bit more.
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:14.639
It was true, I would still go, I would 100% do everything the same way in terms of seeking out feedback and editing it and my next project a million different ways.
00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:19.039
And I really believe in having as many eyes on it and all of that.
00:36:19.360 --> 00:36:33.280
But I think that I will did not have as much of a sense of my own voice going through that feedback process uh as I did towards the end of it, frankly, including that major markup that I had.
00:36:33.440 --> 00:36:38.480
But now as I'm working on other projects, I can just see, I can feel it like that.
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:45.920
Of course, uh having some self-doubt is again a very natural part of this process.
00:36:46.079 --> 00:36:49.840
And it's good because then it makes you question whether something is working or not working.
00:36:50.159 --> 00:36:57.519
But I also do feel a little bit more emboldened to to take risks, to just start writing.
00:36:57.679 --> 00:37:00.239
So I feel like I started off as much more of a plotter.
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.320
And I think I might be a plancer now because I'm like, I think I could probably do I need to you know anyway.
00:37:06.400 --> 00:37:07.920
Maybe that's gonna be something I regret.
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:11.280
But but I do think that I I'm starting to trust my voice more.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:16.000
Yeah, and you're also your ability to let a story unfold, right?
00:37:16.159 --> 00:37:17.519
And then come back to it.
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:18.159
Yeah.
00:37:18.400 --> 00:37:18.719
Yeah.
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:28.800
It reminds me there's this, I don't know if it's like a meme or if it's just something I saw, but it's that it's a voiceover and it says, So you think about the plan, you make the plan, then you throw away the plan.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:32.239
Oh my gosh.
00:37:32.400 --> 00:37:35.280
Yeah, it's just sometimes that's just what we have to do.
00:37:35.599 --> 00:37:43.920
So just from what you've covered over the last few years, what do you think have been the most helpful resources for you to learn your craft?
00:37:44.559 --> 00:37:45.519
It's a really good question.
00:37:45.599 --> 00:37:47.440
I think there's been a couple of different things.
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.000
One is obviously reading, which I uh mentioned, have mentioned a few times.
00:37:52.159 --> 00:37:56.000
I think just reading comps, reading middle grade, just being obsessed with all, right?
00:37:56.079 --> 00:37:59.039
And so it's really funny because a lot of times my friends will be like, What are you reading?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:03.760
And I'm like, I'm not going to tell you until I'm like a group of friends who actually also read middle grade.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:05.119
That has been actually really fun.
00:38:05.280 --> 00:38:06.480
Because I'm like, did you read this?
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:07.760
So that's really incredible.
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:14.800
But I think reading, the second thing is FCBI and making sure that it was plugged in with the different opportunities that they offer.
00:38:15.039 --> 00:38:24.000
For example, as I mentioned earlier, like they had this Oktoberfest where they had real agents review the first 50 manuscripts that are like submitted or something like that.
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:26.400
Not obviously the whole manuscript, but the sampling.
00:38:26.480 --> 00:38:28.719
And so making use of that.
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.079
Also, uh write a writing workshop that I attended.
00:38:32.159 --> 00:38:41.679
I think I alluded to that earlier too, where you have an opportunity to share your writing, but also talk a little bit more about craft and also the editing process.
00:38:41.840 --> 00:38:49.280
Because again, it's important to think about editing in a much more organized way, because otherwise it can feel very overwhelming and you don't know where to start.
00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:51.199
So I think that's been really helpful.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:58.559
And then finally, and I consider this to be like in some ways the most helpful resource has been my writer's group, my critique group.
00:38:58.639 --> 00:39:16.480
So as a circle of women now that have can we've got we've consistently met for 2020 to six years on a monthly basis, sharing resources, telling us what worked, what didn't work, and obviously reviewing each other's work consistently, right?
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.079
So we feel like there's more continuity.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:23.119
They understand the project that's you're working on, can build off of it in a different way.
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:44.480
But that has been the most tremendous resource for me because again, they've just consistently seen what I am working on, given me good feedback, we'll let each other know about different resources that we've used, a workshop that we're about to attend, or if one of us attends it, we'll share the materials or summarize the materials for one another.
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:51.360
So I think that's some of the helpful resources that I feel like if anyone can use some of those, I think they'll be great.
00:39:51.599 --> 00:39:51.840
Yeah.
00:39:52.000 --> 00:40:02.960
And honestly, pretty much every kid lit author that I visited with, at least, has always mentioned SCBWI.
00:40:03.039 --> 00:40:08.960
And for anybody who doesn't know what that stands for, it's the society of uh, why do I always mess it up?
00:40:09.039 --> 00:40:13.280
It's a society of children's children's books, writers and illustrators.
00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:15.519
Children's books, writers and illustrators.
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.159
Thank you.
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:16.719
Thank you.
00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:23.440
So definitely something I always include in the show notes so that you, as a listener, you can go look and look into it for yourself.
00:40:23.679 --> 00:40:34.239
Find and often belonging to those places leads to finding the community of writers that you're talking about.
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:37.599
Because I'm sure that people are out there listening, going, that's nice.
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:41.039
She's got a group of women, they get together once a month.
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:43.840
How could I ever find that for myself?
00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:46.639
I have been in that seat where I think that exact same thing.
00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:52.559
And truly, it's by being a part of something that you meet other people that are a part of something.
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:53.679
Yes.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:54.800
That's exactly right.
00:40:54.880 --> 00:41:09.119
I actually was introduced through SCBWI to my group because they put out a call that if you're interested in a writer's group, then send an email to such a person and then that person connected people based on geographic location or whatever grade level, or that's literally how the group came about.
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:17.599
So SCBWI, I cannot speak highly enough of just the resources and opportunities that I think that they provide.
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.239
And yeah, so grateful to them.
00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:21.519
That group is amazing.
00:41:21.679 --> 00:41:23.280
But I felt the same way.
00:41:23.440 --> 00:41:39.119
And I will just say that before joining FCBW, or sorry, before joining my I had joined SCBWI, but I had joined the writers' group in the first maybe 20 to 2020, frankly, when I joined to join the group, it was really hard because this can't be done in a vacuum.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.079
And having that accountability structure is really helpful.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:45.280
Obviously, the friendships that developing that are just priceless.
00:41:45.519 --> 00:41:51.440
And yeah, I really do think that maybe there's some people who can do writing in it on their own, and that's more power to them.
00:41:51.519 --> 00:41:55.840
But I think the vast majority of us really benefit from doing it in community with others.
00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:58.239
Yeah, I agree with you 100%.
00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:05.599
I ask every guest who comes on the podcast, what wish would you like to impart to your fellow writers?
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:13.840
I hope that you can complete the thing that you want to complete, right?
00:42:13.920 --> 00:42:25.280
If it's that query letter, if it's your most recent edit, if it's writing the book itself, I hope that you're able to accomplish the goal that you have set out for yourself.
00:42:25.679 --> 00:42:29.679
And that goal will look different for each person because we're in different parts of the journey.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.599
But know that you can do it.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:40.320
And uh and I sincerely hope that whatever goals you set out for yourself, that you're able to accomplish it and also take a lot of pride and joy in doing it.
00:42:40.639 --> 00:42:41.199
Beautiful.
00:42:41.360 --> 00:42:42.400
Thank you so much.
00:42:42.719 --> 00:42:47.360
Would you please share anything that you're currently working on that you would like others to know about?
00:42:47.440 --> 00:42:50.480
And then where can listeners find you?
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:54.000
And of course, your middle grade novel, Zaina Lost and Found.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:54.960
Yeah.
00:42:55.440 --> 00:42:59.599
So currently working on a few projects, still middle grade.
00:42:59.840 --> 00:43:03.519
One is contemporary and one is historical fiction, but TVD on both.
00:43:03.679 --> 00:43:06.800
I'm moving a little bit faster on the historical fiction one.
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:12.239
So I'm excited to just see where it goes, but no news to announce just yet.
00:43:12.400 --> 00:43:17.280
Follow me on my Instagram, which is Chefek underscore Han underscore author.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.559
Apparently, there's other Chevrolets, Stacey, just FYI.
00:43:20.719 --> 00:43:21.920
I would probably get to know them.
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:27.679
And also on TikTok, Chefekjk, my website, shabbachon.com.
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:32.320
These are all great places, but I would say Instagram is probably the place that I update the most.
00:43:32.559 --> 00:43:36.480
And just in terms of where you can find my book, it's now I don't even know, a lot of libraries.
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:37.840
Yeah, so that's really cool.
00:43:38.079 --> 00:43:39.760
Support your local bookstore.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:42.719
That's a number one, bookshop.org.
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:46.559
And of course, if your local bookstore actually has an odd shelf, that'd be really awesome.
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:50.239
And then it is also available on Barnes and Noble and Amazon.
00:43:50.480 --> 00:43:53.039
So if that floats your both, that's cool too.
00:43:53.360 --> 00:43:53.679
All right.
00:43:53.840 --> 00:43:56.320
I will make sure to include all those links in the show notes.
00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:04.320
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, for sharing your really beautiful journey with us and just being so open and honest.
00:44:04.480 --> 00:44:07.119
A lot of people will benefit from it, a lot of writers.
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:08.480
So thank you again.
00:44:08.880 --> 00:44:19.840
Thank you so much for having the space for writers to come on and talk a little bit about their journey because I know that I would have benefited from hearing from someone who'd gone through it.
00:44:19.920 --> 00:44:26.719
And so thank you so much for making this resource available to aspiring and published writers.
00:44:26.960 --> 00:44:28.800
Yeah, we're all in it together, right?
00:44:28.880 --> 00:44:29.679
We're all in it together.
00:44:29.840 --> 00:44:30.159
Yes.
00:44:30.320 --> 00:44:30.639
Yeah.
00:44:30.719 --> 00:44:31.840
Thanks, Dacey.
00:44:33.199 --> 00:44:36.000
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:44:36.159 --> 00:44:40.800
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:42.480
And please leave a review.
00:44:42.639 --> 00:44:49.199
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:44:49.360 --> 00:44:50.559
Let's lift each other up.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:53.599
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:44:53.760 --> 00:44:55.360
I'll see you next week.
