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So when you're pretty much done with your manuscript, when you say, you know, I've edited to the extent that my ability will let me edit it too, which will change in your writing journey, of course.
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But once you've got it to that place where you're like, okay, I'm ready to either send it to an editor or send it to an agent, that's when you get your beta readers.
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Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast.
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I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formerly repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach.
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At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories: the one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it.
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This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully.
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Join me bi-weekly for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers.
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Writing a novel is an inside job we do not do alone.
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Welcome to Write It Scared.
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I'm glad you're here.
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Let's dive in.
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Hi, writer.
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Welcome back to the Write It Scared Podcast.
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I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, and this is where we talk about the brave and the vulnerable act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more confidence, more clarity, and not feel so alone.
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Today is our first guest episode of the season, and I'm delighted to be joined by Mystery and Thriller author and beta reader Kay Wilde to talk about all things beta reading.
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We're going to break down what beta readers actually do, when your manuscript is ready for them, and how to find the right readers, what questions to ask, and maybe most importantly, how to sort through the feedback you get without feeling like you have to change everything.
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We'll also talk about why sharing your work can feel so vulnerable and how to make that process a little easier.
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I'll give you KA's bio and introduce her properly in just a minute, but first it's time for this week's Courage File.
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And it comes from a writer named Stacy.
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Stacy writes, After almost 10 years of not moving forward in my writing, I let the joy of curiosity take my hand and moving through doubt and fear, have just cracked the 75k mark on my current work in progress.
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I have worked diligently through illness, work, life, and all the unknowns being thrown at me.
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Sometimes it hasn't been pretty, but the daily reminder of progress over perfection has kept me coming back to the story.
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Not only am I using this courageous moment to stroke my creative fires, I am able to redirect it into the classroom as a middle school language arts teacher, where I am firsthand showing them that goals can be achievable through hard work, consistency, and overcoming fear.
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As we all know, quote, feelings are not facts, end quote.
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I love that.
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And I'm able to talk about these things with them.
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I've also reached out to some colleagues who have become my biggest supporters and cheerleaders, literally reading my work as I'm writing it.
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I've channeled my joy of writing to overcome my fear, and it has paid off more than I could have imagined.
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I've learned so much throughout this process, I couldn't ask for more.
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No matter what happens with my novel, I've already won every award that matters acceptance and belief in myself.
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Stacy also shared that it was an early episode on this podcast about procrastination that helped them return to a 500-word scene that they'd abandoned and they got curious and wrote one sentence and then another.
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And eventually that scene became the first chapter of this 75,000-word manuscript.
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So if I had to guess, I would bet that podcast episode was from season one, episode three, titled Out Smart Procrastination and Other Forms of Resistance.
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Thank you, Stacy, for sharing this with us.
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It just lights me up inside to witness other people making good on their goals and their dreams and being able to be a small part of it is phenomenal.
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And I'm so excited for you and for your classroom and for the pay it forwardness that is going on here.
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So, writer, if you have a writing win or a moment when you did the scary thing anyway, I want to hear about it.
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You can submit your story to the Courage Files using the link in the show notes, and then you'll be entered into our quarterly drawing for a free 10-page editorial assessment and 30-minute book coaching session with me.
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And with your permission, I'll read your courage file on the show notes, and we can use that to encourage each other to keep going.
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Okay, now let me introduce you to KA Wilde.
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KA Wilde is the pen name of a corporate attorney and thriller writer who loves a fast-paced murder mystery in any medium and dogs more than people.
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She writes psychological thrillers and commercially engaging characters for busy readers who love pacy stories and being kept on their toes.
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When she's not writing, she enjoys providing beta reading services to writers in the mystery, thriller, and horror genres.
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And I have to apologize in advance for the interview portion of the episode.
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KA sounds fantastic, but my side, I was having trouble with my audio and I was also a little sick that day.
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So again, kind of a sound like a little squeaky squirrel.
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But regardless, we endeavor to persevere.
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So onward.
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Hi, Katie.
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Thank you so much for coming onto the Write At Scared Podcast.
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I'm really excited to have you here.
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Even though I gave you a bit of an introduction with your bio, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your writing journey, and how you ended up writing the mystery thriller suspense, Jonavis?
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Sure.
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So I'm an attorney and also an author.
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I'm writing under the pen name K-A Wild.
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That's W-I-L-D-E.
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And so I write mysteries, thrillers in that space.
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I also do some beta reading as well.
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I have beta readish services in that same space.
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Back in college, I took a screenwriting class.
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And it was my favorite class in college by far that I've ever taken.
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And so I dabbled in screenwriting for a bit.
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And then I went to law school and fell off a little bit.
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I eventually picked up writing and I said, I'm gonna write a novel.
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I don't know if I'm gonna finish it.
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I don't know if it's gonna be any good.
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I don't know what genre it's gonna be, but I'm gonna write something.
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And so I did, and that was my first book.
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And now I just haven't stopped writing since I'm currently drafting my fourth one now.
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That's awesome.
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Okay, well, backstory here for listeners.
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The reason that we're here today is to talk about beta reading.
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Katie has a beta reading service, and she and I are actually swapping beta services right now.
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So let's define what a beta reader is and in comparison to a critique partner, an alpha reader, a sensitivity reader.
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Yeah, so why don't you jump in and then I'll share my thoughts.
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Your alpha reader, that's gonna come earlier in your writing process.
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Typically, you're gonna be looking for someone at that point to read, maybe in terms of plot, if you have any questions about maybe a direction that you're going in.
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Typically, your manuscript isn't going to be as polished when you send them to your alpha readers.
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So these are your trusted people to get kind of your initial insights in.
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And there's some debates.
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You don't always need an alpha reader, but they're great.
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If, again, if you have any sort of like plot issues that you want to work through or some initial things you'd like to work through with a reader.
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A friend of mine, her sister, reads in the genre that she writes in.
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And so her sister gets to see everything first from the notes of the conception of the idea to the really crappy, maybe it's a first chapter, maybe not.
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I'm not sure where this is going, and helps her brainstorm things, everything from plot to title.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah.
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That's awesome when you can find someone like that already in your life.
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But I would say they're very special people.
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So critique partners, typically these are going to be other writers.
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And typically they'll be someone that you swap pages with.
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And it's not always the entire manuscript.
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A lot of times it's really just a couple of chapters or a section, and they're there to bounce ideas off each other as writers from that writer perspective.
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And they can come at any stage in the process.
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I don't think they necessarily have to come at the beginning, although you probably would see them more so in the initial drafting phase.
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But so those are your critique partners, and then of course, your beta readers are towards the end of this process, and you do your kind of target market trial almost.
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They're like your trial readers.
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Does it so these are gonna be your more so readers than writers, although it's great to have a writer in the mix of your beta readers?
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I always like to have a mix more readers than writers, usually, but a mix is great for some kind of diverse feedback, if you will.
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I I think the takeaway here is that a beta reader is someone who's reading for the experience of a finished product.
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And so you're testing that product, knowing that it's probably got some bugs in it, knowing that there's things that you have not seen that you can't see because you and yourself are the author and you hold bias, right?
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So you're hoping that most of it is great, but willing to accept that some of it's probably problematic and you want to know where those problems are for one final polish.
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Okay.
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Did we touch everything?
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Oh, sensitivity readers.
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So sensitivity readers, usually these people are paid, and it's someone who is reading the manuscript with a specific lens in mind, trying to make sure that what's represented in the pages is accurate considering whatever culture or identity or experience you're trying to represent, if the writer doesn't come from that particular background.
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So, what do you think some of the biggest misconceptions that writers might have about beta readers?
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That beta readers aren't editors, they're gonna tell you how they feel about the manuscript.
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They're also not typically writers, too.
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So sometimes they don't know how to express what might be wrong.
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They might just be able to pick out the problem.
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So that's a big kind of difference there.
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Another thing is I think a lot of people, when they get beta readers and they get the feedback back, they think that they have to take every suggestion that they see on the page.
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And that's not necessarily something that you have to do.
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It's something to definitely take into consideration.
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Uh how to handle feedback.
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Exactly.
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Absolutely.
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Yeah.
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So I think that's another big misconception.
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So we said that you want the manuscript in the best shape that you can get it, that your skill level at this moment in time allows it to be.
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But that doesn't necessarily mean it's perfect, but it should not be littered with text.
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Do your best to clean it up.
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Get the plot set, make it make sense, make it read as well as you can make it read, and then go back and fix any spelling or grammar errors as it had are glaring and obvious.
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And the reason being is because you don't want anything to distract your reader from the story.
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That kind of stuff will pull them out of the experience of reading the story.
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And that is the information you're trying to get is what was their experience.
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So, okay.
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Now we talked about what they are.
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Let's talk about finding them.
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And you said something interesting that I wanted to ask you about.
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You said, Do you like a mix of writers and readers?
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You like to have at least one writer in there.
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Why is that?
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I may get different feedback from different perspectives.
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A writer also can help you with a plot point.
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If they do give you feedback on something that they say this isn't really working, you could say, hey, so how would you change it?
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Or at least ask their perspective on that in a different way that with readers, they might not necessarily be able to do that.
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And I also just think that writers' brains just think differently than readers sometimes.
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Although we are readers too, we think in a very different way.
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So there are some things that a writer will pick up that a reader will not, but vice versa too.
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I think that sometimes writers review on more of a granular level than very analytically.
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Exactly.
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Than the reader or a typical reader of the genre might.
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So you get kind of a variety of feedback, and I just personally like that.
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So you've used beta readers and you said you found them in a lot of different avenues.
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What do you think is the most helpful way for a writer to go about hiding beta readers that are appropriate?
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I kind of take a bunch of different approaches, even now that I've taken all these different avenues.
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I still use different avenues.
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So, of course, there's the always the free beta readers versus paid beta reader debate.
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Should you use paid beta readers?
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I like to go for a mix.
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I like to have some that I find are people that I know that might be interested in the genre, but not friends and family, which I'll get to in a second.
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But usually other sometimes that's where I find my other writers that I like to have in that mix.
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And then I have the paid beta readers, which I'll find through different sources.
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Woody is it?
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He has to say.
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I'll have to look it up in a second because I can't remember what it's called.
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It's not spanyarn, is it?
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Oh, okay.
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Um, but they seemed pretty reputable.
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So we'll see how the feedback comes back from them.
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But so it's always fun to try these different avenues, too.
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I think personally.
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That's the joy of the writing process, is getting to try new things.
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And then, of course, you have your typical fiber readers that you can find on there.
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I've also found through social media there are a lot of people advertising those kinds of services.
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Sometimes it gets tricky because you want to make sure you're not gonna fall for any scams or anything like that.
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But a lot of times you can see from somebody's profile whether or not they're gonna be a good reader.
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A lot of times, too, they'll have samples that you can look at of beta reader reports that you can see, okay, like their style.
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I think they'll do a good job with my book, or maybe not.
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So I think that's the the two avenues you can take.
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The free option can get a little bit trickier, I think, sometimes.
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But like I said, I usually find people that I know that read the genre and but try to stay away from the friends and family.
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Although I don't think they're always a bad beta reader.
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I think sometimes you can find a great beta reader in that mix.
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They love it, not give you any kind of critique.
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Exactly.
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But I do have some, like my boyfriend's aunt, for example.
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I gave her the book, not thinking I do my own friends and family read as another layer of reading.
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And basically that's literally just for my own confidence to put it out there and see that people like it.
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But it gives you a little bit of confidence to go into than the beta reader stage or any other stage you're gonna be going through after that.
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But anyway, so I had sent her this book and she gave me some of the best critiques that I have ever gotten from sending my book out to someone.
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And I was like, okay, I'm gonna use you next time as a beta reader.
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So you can find them also in your personal network as well.
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I would just stray away from maybe your parents and very close, significant others and that sort of thing.
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The way it worked for me is my first beta readers were people that I found through writing groups, right?
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And then on some of those were like online Facebook groups and things like that.
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And it worked out.
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And then as I progressed along my writing journey, I started to get more specific because at first I was anybody.
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And then I started to get more specific.
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And I'm like, no, I want a very specific reader, someone who reads what I write, because I learned my lips sentence that don't give your book to someone who does not really read that genre, unless it's like you said, with your family or your friends, and you're honestly just reading to receive praise.
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There's nothing wrong with handing it like I just gave mine to my mother-in-law, and she will come back and tell me she loves it.
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And she will also catch a bunch of a bunch of typos for me.
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But she's not gonna, she's not gonna be critical.
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And I need that too.
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So I need to know what I do just as well, just as much as the things that are working.
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I've used fiber too.
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I use fibers very specifically to find sensitivity readers and beta readers because I didn't know anybody in that space that I was writing in.
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This was a male-male romance that I worked on.
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And some of the best people that I found was like if I reached out to somebody on Fiverr and they said, you know, I don't have any space for it, but why don't you go talk to sewing?
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So that word of mouth was actually how I found the beta reader and sensitivity readers that I used.
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And I paid for that.
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It was well worth it to me.
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Well worth it.
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And then I'm trying something new, and I don't know if you've heard about this, but the shit nobody told you about writing podcast with the host Bianca Mars, I think that's how you pronounce her name.
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She has a beta reading matchup service that is like 25 bucks.
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And you send 3,000 words of your novel.
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So I'm gonna give that a shot and see.
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So I did that, did you?
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So a while ago, and it worked really well.
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We didn't stay together, but I feel like if we tried a little bit harder, like I could have found like a forever beta reader or critique partner in that group.
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I thought it was a great experience.
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I was also very young in my writing journey back when I did this a couple years ago.
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So it was a little bit of a different perspective that I was going in with.
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But you definitely have people from different levels too.
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So I think that's nice.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:41.519
I think it's always good to see where people are in their journey and to be able to help people but also learn from people is the best situation to be in.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:42.880
Absolutely.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.200
There's another one called Spun Yarn.
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:50.400
I don't know if you've heard of it, but it is a paid beta reading service and it's expensive.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:18:03.920
And I don't know anything, I have never used it, but and you get th three beta readers that are matched up with your specific genre and an age category.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.319
Apparently they're vetted and all these things.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:17.279
So if anybody out there has used Penny Art, please send me an email and let me know what your experience has been like because I'm highly interested to know.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:23.759
And the other thing, once a friend of mine has off of her mailing list, she just has some some super fans.
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:28.319
And they have become beta readers of her books before they go out.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:37.200
Once you get a little farther along and you start publishing and people are liking what you put out, sometimes you can latch onto one of those fans and be like, hey, you want to be an early reader?
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.519
They're like so the one that I'm using is called Beta Side.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:46.960
So they sent me a spreadsheet with all of the beta readers that they found for me.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:52.400
So they basically I give them the blurb and they advertise it, and then the readers pick.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.559
And it was a paid service, of course.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:03.279
And they have, I think they have nine for me or something crazy, which they only guaranteed five, I think, five or six.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.799
And they said they give you nine, but sometimes you'll have people that bail.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:13.440
Well, I'm wondering if that's why they give you the nine, and then they figure they'll guarantee that at least six of them will respond.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:14.799
So we'll see how it goes.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.599
I'm hopeful.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.319
I'm really interested to see how your experience is.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:18.960
Oh, let's just know.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.799
Yes, keep me posted.
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:31.519
And I'll make sure that we hit all of these names in the show notes so I and links if I can find them so that other people can go explore.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.279
So it's nine beta readers.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.119
Okay, so that brings up a really good question.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:37.680
Do you think there's too much there's such a thing as too many?
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.480
I think nine is probably too many, but I am not expecting that many back.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:43.920
So I think it's gonna be okay.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.720
And I think trying out this service was worth it.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.400
So we'll see how it goes.
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.000
But I think generally three to six is what I shoot for.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:58.880
Six can be a little much, but again, if I'm trying something new and I don't know if it's gonna be good, then usually I'll go for the higher number.
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:03.119
But if it's people that I know and that I've used before, then I'll shoot for the three.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.200
So definitely depends.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.799
And with my last book, I did two rounds of beta reading.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:10.000
So that's also an option.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.799
You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket at one time.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:19.279
You can have one or two people read it and then decide, hey, I need more feedback, and then have more people read it.
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:27.839
And in that time, I made some tweaks, some edits, not substantial, I would say, to the story, but based on some of the advice that I'd gotten in my first round.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:29.680
So the second round was a little bit different.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.720
And so I got a little bit of some different feedback.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.799
So that's all also always an option.
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:36.880
Yeah, fair and a smart idea.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.400
And I've done the same thing too.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:47.440
It's like you have taken what feedback I wanted to add in that first round, incorporated it, and then went kicked it off to a couple different people, how it landed.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.559
And if I seem to solve the issues that were present in the first.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.680
So three of five is typically what I do.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:02.000
Let's just briefly go over what would make someone a good beta reader for your work.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.160
So I know you already mentioned, but somebody that reads the genre pretty frequently at least.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:18.160
You also want someone that's going to not be afraid to give you some critiques to actually not just better you up, but maybe actually tell you what.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.519
Be honest.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:20.960
Be honest, yeah.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.839
So I think those are the two big points there.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:26.400
So just a repeat here.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.880
They need to be an avid reader of your genre.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.279
They need to be a reliable person who's not gonna drop off the edge of the earth.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.359
If it's a paid service, then they need to be a reputable person, right?
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.720
And they need to be willing to give you honest feedback.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.799
And also, I would say honor the feedback that you're requesting.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:53.440
And you don't want them, if they come at you with you need to change everything, that's not the person you want to listen to.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.839
I definitely had some people that have come to me in my service that are saying, I have not finished lineup.
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:00.640
Editing yet.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.279
Don't tell me anything that has to do with line edits.
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:04.720
I want to know everything else.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.480
But I'm not quite there yet.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.200
And that was something I had to take into consideration.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.279
And I think she appreciated it that I did and I focused on the other stuff.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:21.519
Not that typically you're going to focus on the line edit as much in a beta read, but that was something she explicitly wanted me to kind of steer clear from.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:27.359
Let's talk about how to control what kind of feedback you're getting and how to use it.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.000
So, what do you think writers want to ask their betas to focus on?
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.279
Is pretty personal in some respects.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.400
I think there are the general questions that you want to ask.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.440
Were there elements of the book that you really enjoyed?
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.680
Were there things that raised an eyebrow?
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:51.279
I don't like to ask more than one or two general questions before I get into like the niche questions that'll actually give me more usable feedback.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:59.759
One of the things I personally love to ask is about the market and about what are some other books that you have seen in this genre?
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.079
Just because I am terrible at comps.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.200
And so this helps me.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.119
Now, what does my book remind you of?
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.119
What other books did my book remind you of?
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:07.839
Is that a question?
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:08.240
Yeah.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:09.519
That's a great question.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:21.680
So those kind of questions to help me orient my marketing, which is the next step in the plan after I have a book together, but it's whatever you need help with.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:36.559
Some people like to ask specifically about certain characters and whether this character was relatable or like some some things that they have, I guess, doubts about or things that they're they've been focusing on and they want to make sure it comes across.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.559
Those are great questions to ask.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:47.200
A lot of the paid beta services, I will say, have their own questionnaire, but a lot of them also let you ask extra questions, which is where then Yeah.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:54.720
So I find that the way I've asked for beta feedback has changed.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.079
And and the specific feedback of Asport has changed as I've grown as a writer.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.799
Like in the beginning, I didn't ask any questions.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:03.920
I was just like, here you go.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.720
Wait, right.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.599
That's tell me what you think.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.279
Not great, right?
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:18.640
And as I went along, I learned to ask for specific questions of the things I was worried about.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.039
Like, is my character empathetic enough?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:25.200
Because I tend to write these characters that are not kind of great, right?
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.039
They're not they're not coddly and hugging puppies.
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.319
So I want to make sure the reader can invest in them, right?
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.960
For me, that's always been a big question for me.
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.039
Were you compelled by my character and why?
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.599
And then always plot.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.400
Like I was there anything that didn't make sense?
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.599
That's a really big question that has come up for me.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:52.160
Though I always like to ask, was there any place where you were confused and where?
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.640
And if why were you confused?
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.319
So I think that's helpful.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:59.599
And then where did you want to put the book down?
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.680
Where were you bored or tired?
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:07.599
And if it's a writer that I'm working with that's reading my manuscript, I can ask them why.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:12.000
And they can usually tell me I'm not invested in the character's motivation at this point.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.839
Or this is was out of the blue and I don't know where this came from.
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.920
Or this scene is just moving anything forward.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.359
So I'm gonna get that kind of feedback.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:25.839
If it's just a general reader, you say, I don't know.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.400
I just it's bored.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:36.880
It's and the other thing I like to ask is like for right, for example, the book that I'm gonna send to you, I've sent you a list of questions.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.440
So I really want to know, are these voices distinct enough?
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.960
Because that's a big worry.
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:50.640
And did did the balance of those POVs feel right to deliver an ending that's satisfying for both characters to the reader?
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.160
So those are the things on pigment.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:01.839
Now, I think everybody's gonna have kind of a different preference, but do you have your beta readers look at your questions that you send them first?
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:09.680
Or do you ask them specifically, like, hey, these are some questions I want you to address, but please read the manuscript first and then look at the questions?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:17.680
Much prefer my beta readers look at the questions first and then they know what they're looking for, particularly with those that aren't writers.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:24.640
I think this guides them a little bit in what I want them to focus on, because I don't always want them to focus on everything.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.960
I want them to look at my specific questions.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:32.240
So that's typically how I would prefer, but I could see the benefit though.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:37.200
I've never done it the other way, but I could see the benefit in asking the questions second.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.279
I think it's probably personal preference.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.119
I think it might be a good experiment.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:50.960
I don't, I've never done it, but just to have a batch of beta readers who read the manuscript first and then answer the questions, and a badge of beta readers who do it the other way and see see what comes out of it.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:27:03.440
And I think it's really important to note that when you're working with a beta reader, you definitely want to set a depth in like with you and I, like we're in communication, we're keeping each other updated where we're at, still waiting for me.
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:10.480
But we told each other ahead of time, like about how much time we expected things to take us, and that will turn those things around.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:15.680
So I think that's just made important to set expectations up for okay.
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:21.200
So now once you get the feedback, how do you decide what to listen to and what to ignore?
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.160
Or what do you do first once you get feedback?
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.119
What do you do?
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.319
I read it and then I put it away for a bit.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.000
And then I come back to it.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:36.480
Just usually at least a couple days to let myself marinate on it, particularly if it's pretty critical.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:42.079
But even if it's not, I think then you let it like meld a little bit in your mind and think it over.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:46.480
And then you can see, I think, some of those points where you're like, okay, this makes sense.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.680
And then, okay, this point doesn't actually make any sense at all.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:55.759
But most of the time you do get pr pretty good feedback if you go through a good source, of course.
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:07.359
But usually if it's something that maybe more than one reader picked up on, then I'm definitely gonna look at it with more of a fine-tooth comb and go through that section a little bit more.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.880
Because if it's more than one person picks up on it without really even prompting it, then that's definitely something I'm gonna look into.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:22.240
But if it's something that seems like maybe personal preference, I didn't like that these two characters didn't get together in the end.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.720
Then I'm not gonna listen to something like that.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:30.640
And maybe you will have good reads readers later that come back and complain about your characters.
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:42.319
But at that point, I think that you're the writer, so you can do whatever you want in that perspective in in terms of the creativity of your story and the drive of what you want people to feel at the end, that sort of thing.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.200
So those are my the way I approach it.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:50.160
Yeah, I definitely read it, put it away.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:55.119
Depends on what it's said, whether I fall under my desk or go lay out.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:00.480
Yeah, have you ever gotten feedback that just stung from a beta reader?
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:01.119
Absolutely.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:13.920
I have found that some of the best beta readers that I have are critical, but they also do provide because there's always, I think, nice things to say about a manuscript.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.000
I have a couple books under our belt.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.960
So there are definitely some nice things people can say.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:24.000
So I think some of the best feedback that I've gotten has been that's a a bit of a mix.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.119
So they say some nice things, but also give me critiques, and so then I don't feel bad about myself, but then I have things to work on.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:32.720
Those are the ones I try to shoot for.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:40.240
I think learning to take any type of feedback is a a learning experience, and it's also a skill.
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.279
So as you get better as you practice.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:53.680
So yeah, don't I think the big takeaway for me, and hopefully for anybody new out there, is that one, you don't have to listen to all feedback, right?
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.400
And sometimes it's not gonna make sense.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.559
Uh readers can make errors.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.160
Don't be disheartened.
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:07.039
And if you're beta reading for anybody out there, make sure to note the things that you like as well as the things that confuse you.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.440
Because you are handling somebody's heart and soul.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:19.200
Oh, specifically, do you have any tips for writers in the mystery or thriller genre?
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.359
Since that's where you write if they're going out to beta and they write in that genre.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.119
Anything specific that type of writer should be thinking about.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.079
I like to ask, did you guess the ending?
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:31.920
Well, where were the twists?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:33.519
Did you enjoy the twists?
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.119
Those kind of questions.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:41.599
Because I think those are very hard from a writer's perspective to see if you actually nailed or not.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:50.160
It's impossible because even if you're pantsing and you don't know, and at that point in the book, it's still to know later when you edit.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:50.720
Exactly.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:52.079
It's still really hard.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.640
So those are the big things that I would hit on in that space for sure.
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:57.440
Yeah.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:10.559
I think and it's worth saying that once your manuscripts, like if you're writing mystery or thriller or suspense and you give it off to somebody to beta read, that beta reader can only read it once.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:15.279
Even if you change it really substantially, because they know those twists.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:16.160
They know.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.720
So it's gonna alter their experience.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.480
Yeah, that it makes it hard.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:24.079
You can't go back to them with the same book and say, Does this work now?
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:25.200
Are you more surprised?
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.559
Because it doesn't work.
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:27.119
Okay.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.920
This is the the heart of the podcast is getting at the pieces of the writing process that are hard.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:40.960
Not just on the technical side, but just hard because it's part of being a vulnerable human, right?
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:46.559
And we most people in general don't like to show where they bleed.
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.880
But I think it's really important that we do so and normalizes as the experience, right?
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.759
So that everybody understands that this is hard for everybody.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:00.640
So, in that light, sharing a manuscript with readers can be an incredibly vulnerable experience.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:07.279
So, what would you say to the writer who's terrified to let someone else read their work because they're afraid it's not gonna be good?
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:09.279
You have to do it.
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:17.279
If you want to actually get feedback and progress as a writer and get better, that's the way to do it.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.240
And it's tough love, I think, but it's what the only way to get better.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.720
You're not gonna get better just by yourself.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:32.960
And yeah, you'll become a little bit better of a writer and editor on your own, but that feedback's so important and I think it's really invaluable.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:46.079
We can always start with sending the first chapter to your best friend and having them tell you that it's great and build that confidence by just sharing pieces of your work with someone before you're ready to go in with the whole manuscript.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:48.960
And I think that was really helpful for me when I kind of first started.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:49.759
I did that.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.960
I also joined a writing circle and we would share a thousand words at a time.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:01.839
So it wasn't like I would read the whole thing, but it was something small, like a manageable piece that I was terrified the first time I did it.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.079
But now I'm not as scared to read a piece that I've written in front of people.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:07.359
It takes practice though.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:16.240
Even after multiple times doing it, it's still gonna be a little bit scary when you hit that send button and your manuscript is now off to somebody else.
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.720
So it gets easier, but I wouldn't say it never stops being hard.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.400
And I love that.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.440
So it's like tough love and take baby steps.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.319
And that's it so true because it's incredibly valuable.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:39.359
And I think the other thing is just understand that nobody just wakes up knowing how to do this, right?
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.680
So if you're new here, welcome.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:55.200
And I think if you one come into it with the spirit of I'm new here and I'm learning, so I instead of I'm standing up against and with people who are way better than me.
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.200
Everybody starts from ground zero at some point or time or another.
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:04.400
When you start at ground zero, it might be different than so-and-so over there, but everybody starts at the same levels.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:10.000
And then for writers that have been doing this for a while, we need to remember that everybody starts at ground zero.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:10.320
Right.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.840
And hold on to the memory so that we don't become not humble.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.920
But I think every book too kind of humbles you a little bit.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:18.079
Yeah.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.119
I feel like every time I send a new one, it humbles me.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:28.880
And then I feel a little better towards the end of having this manuscript and sending it out and finishing putting the final touches on it.
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.239
And then it starts all over again.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:37.360
And the fun part about writing, though, is you get to do something over and over again, but it's a different journey each time.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.280
So I think that's a lot of fun.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:39.760
Yeah.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:47.920
So if you're of the mindset that you're gonna nail it in one crack, this book is gonna be a painful ride for you.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.079
I'm gonna suggest your mindset.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:50.559
Yeah.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:35:02.960
So what's the one thing you think a writer who's considering using a beta reader can do today to start preparing either themselves or their manuscript for that experience?
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:14.639
Just getting comfortable with getting feedback and with sending pieces of your book to someone, I think is a great way to get your feet wet in that space.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:25.599
And then also just connecting with other writers, whether that's in person, whether that's on social media or whatever, so that you can start building that network too is also helpful.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.519
That way you can one find these people when you're ready for them.
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:34.480
But also you have the encouragement to get started when you're ready.
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:35.440
All right.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.440
Thank you so much.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.639
I think that's a great place to leave off today.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.880
So thank you so much for your time.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:47.039
And please let us know where listeners can connect with you.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:52.800
But also please let us know where we can find you online and what's coming next for you.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.800
Yeah, so my website is my author name, K-A Wild.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.239
That's W-I-L-D-E author.com.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:09.840
I'm also on X pretty active there at K-A-Wild Author, and then also on Instagram at k.a.wild.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:19.519
And so coming next for me, I have some uh or a manuscript in the beta space right now, out with some beta readers.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:24.239
So right now I'm distracting myself by starting my next manuscript.
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:25.360
It's been really fun.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.960
I'm writing a locked room mystery, maybe a thriller.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.719
We'll see how it comes together.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.519
I'm not quite sure yet, but so far it's been a lot of fun.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:44.079
So that's what I'm doing until I get the feedback back and then I'll start actually querying this thing, which will be exciting, of course, after my editing process, because I will have some edits.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:49.679
There's already things that I've thought of that I'm like, maybe I should add these little like sprinkles in here and there.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.960
I will have some edits and then yeah, hopefully get the package out.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:54.000
But Brandon.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.840
Make sure to list all of your connection links in the show notes.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.840
And thanks for joining us.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:02.480
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.880
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.400
And please leave a review.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:13.920
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.280
Let's lift each other up.
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.320
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:19.360
I'll see you soon.
00:00:00.239 --> 00:00:11.679
So when you're pretty much done with your manuscript, when you say, you know, I've edited to the extent that my ability will let me edit it too, which will change in your writing journey, of course.
00:00:11.679 --> 00:00:19.359
But once you've got it to that place where you're like, okay, I'm ready to either send it to an editor or send it to an agent, that's when you get your beta readers.
00:00:20.640 --> 00:00:22.879
Welcome to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:31.519
I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, a formerly repressed creative soul, turned fiction writer, story editor, and author accelerator certified fiction book coach.
00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:48.000
At Write It Scared, we tell the truth about why writing a novel is so hard by acknowledging that most writers grapple with two stories: the one they want to put on the page to the best of their ability, and the often subconscious internal story that prevents them from doing it.
00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:59.600
This show is designed to help you identify and rewrite the internal narrative holding you back while you discover and write the story you want to tell and learn all the tools to help you do that successfully.
00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:08.000
Join me bi-weekly for a new episode where we'll talk about writing to deepen our understanding of the craft and of ourselves as writers.
00:01:08.000 --> 00:01:11.519
Writing a novel is an inside job we do not do alone.
00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:13.280
Welcome to Write It Scared.
00:01:13.280 --> 00:01:14.400
I'm glad you're here.
00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:15.840
Let's dive in.
00:01:15.840 --> 00:01:19.439
Hi, writer.
00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:21.280
Welcome back to the Write It Scared Podcast.
00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:29.519
I'm your host, Stacey Fraser, and this is where we talk about the brave and the vulnerable act of writing our novels so that we can do it with more confidence, more clarity, and not feel so alone.
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:39.359
Today is our first guest episode of the season, and I'm delighted to be joined by Mystery and Thriller author and beta reader Kay Wilde to talk about all things beta reading.
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:53.040
We're going to break down what beta readers actually do, when your manuscript is ready for them, and how to find the right readers, what questions to ask, and maybe most importantly, how to sort through the feedback you get without feeling like you have to change everything.
00:01:53.040 --> 00:01:59.840
We'll also talk about why sharing your work can feel so vulnerable and how to make that process a little easier.
00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:07.920
I'll give you KA's bio and introduce her properly in just a minute, but first it's time for this week's Courage File.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.159
And it comes from a writer named Stacy.
00:02:12.159 --> 00:02:27.520
Stacy writes, After almost 10 years of not moving forward in my writing, I let the joy of curiosity take my hand and moving through doubt and fear, have just cracked the 75k mark on my current work in progress.
00:02:27.520 --> 00:02:33.439
I have worked diligently through illness, work, life, and all the unknowns being thrown at me.
00:02:33.439 --> 00:02:40.240
Sometimes it hasn't been pretty, but the daily reminder of progress over perfection has kept me coming back to the story.
00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:55.360
Not only am I using this courageous moment to stroke my creative fires, I am able to redirect it into the classroom as a middle school language arts teacher, where I am firsthand showing them that goals can be achievable through hard work, consistency, and overcoming fear.
00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:59.919
As we all know, quote, feelings are not facts, end quote.
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I love that.
00:03:01.039 --> 00:03:04.080
And I'm able to talk about these things with them.
00:03:04.080 --> 00:03:11.039
I've also reached out to some colleagues who have become my biggest supporters and cheerleaders, literally reading my work as I'm writing it.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:16.479
I've channeled my joy of writing to overcome my fear, and it has paid off more than I could have imagined.
00:03:16.479 --> 00:03:19.520
I've learned so much throughout this process, I couldn't ask for more.
00:03:19.520 --> 00:03:26.080
No matter what happens with my novel, I've already won every award that matters acceptance and belief in myself.
00:03:26.080 --> 00:03:40.159
Stacy also shared that it was an early episode on this podcast about procrastination that helped them return to a 500-word scene that they'd abandoned and they got curious and wrote one sentence and then another.
00:03:40.159 --> 00:03:46.000
And eventually that scene became the first chapter of this 75,000-word manuscript.
00:03:46.000 --> 00:03:55.759
So if I had to guess, I would bet that podcast episode was from season one, episode three, titled Out Smart Procrastination and Other Forms of Resistance.
00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.400
Thank you, Stacy, for sharing this with us.
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:09.039
It just lights me up inside to witness other people making good on their goals and their dreams and being able to be a small part of it is phenomenal.
00:04:09.039 --> 00:04:17.360
And I'm so excited for you and for your classroom and for the pay it forwardness that is going on here.
00:04:17.360 --> 00:04:23.040
So, writer, if you have a writing win or a moment when you did the scary thing anyway, I want to hear about it.
00:04:23.040 --> 00:04:33.439
You can submit your story to the Courage Files using the link in the show notes, and then you'll be entered into our quarterly drawing for a free 10-page editorial assessment and 30-minute book coaching session with me.
00:04:33.439 --> 00:04:40.480
And with your permission, I'll read your courage file on the show notes, and we can use that to encourage each other to keep going.
00:04:40.480 --> 00:04:44.480
Okay, now let me introduce you to KA Wilde.
00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:54.319
KA Wilde is the pen name of a corporate attorney and thriller writer who loves a fast-paced murder mystery in any medium and dogs more than people.
00:04:54.319 --> 00:05:02.800
She writes psychological thrillers and commercially engaging characters for busy readers who love pacy stories and being kept on their toes.
00:05:02.800 --> 00:05:09.600
When she's not writing, she enjoys providing beta reading services to writers in the mystery, thriller, and horror genres.
00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:16.000
And I have to apologize in advance for the interview portion of the episode.
00:05:16.000 --> 00:05:22.240
KA sounds fantastic, but my side, I was having trouble with my audio and I was also a little sick that day.
00:05:22.240 --> 00:05:26.160
So again, kind of a sound like a little squeaky squirrel.
00:05:26.160 --> 00:05:28.480
But regardless, we endeavor to persevere.
00:05:28.480 --> 00:05:29.600
So onward.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:31.120
Hi, Katie.
00:05:31.120 --> 00:05:33.759
Thank you so much for coming onto the Write At Scared Podcast.
00:05:33.759 --> 00:05:35.759
I'm really excited to have you here.
00:05:35.759 --> 00:05:45.199
Even though I gave you a bit of an introduction with your bio, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself, your writing journey, and how you ended up writing the mystery thriller suspense, Jonavis?
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Sure.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:48.399
So I'm an attorney and also an author.
00:05:48.399 --> 00:05:50.720
I'm writing under the pen name K-A Wild.
00:05:50.720 --> 00:05:52.720
That's W-I-L-D-E.
00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.720
And so I write mysteries, thrillers in that space.
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I also do some beta reading as well.
00:05:58.959 --> 00:06:02.319
I have beta readish services in that same space.
00:06:02.319 --> 00:06:04.879
Back in college, I took a screenwriting class.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:09.199
And it was my favorite class in college by far that I've ever taken.
00:06:09.199 --> 00:06:12.480
And so I dabbled in screenwriting for a bit.
00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.519
And then I went to law school and fell off a little bit.
00:06:15.519 --> 00:06:19.920
I eventually picked up writing and I said, I'm gonna write a novel.
00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:21.360
I don't know if I'm gonna finish it.
00:06:21.360 --> 00:06:22.800
I don't know if it's gonna be any good.
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.519
I don't know what genre it's gonna be, but I'm gonna write something.
00:06:25.519 --> 00:06:27.600
And so I did, and that was my first book.
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And now I just haven't stopped writing since I'm currently drafting my fourth one now.
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That's awesome.
00:06:33.199 --> 00:06:36.000
Okay, well, backstory here for listeners.
00:06:36.000 --> 00:06:39.439
The reason that we're here today is to talk about beta reading.
00:06:39.439 --> 00:06:46.079
Katie has a beta reading service, and she and I are actually swapping beta services right now.
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:55.120
So let's define what a beta reader is and in comparison to a critique partner, an alpha reader, a sensitivity reader.
00:06:55.120 --> 00:06:57.759
Yeah, so why don't you jump in and then I'll share my thoughts.
00:06:58.079 --> 00:07:02.079
Your alpha reader, that's gonna come earlier in your writing process.
00:07:02.079 --> 00:07:13.519
Typically, you're gonna be looking for someone at that point to read, maybe in terms of plot, if you have any questions about maybe a direction that you're going in.
00:07:13.519 --> 00:07:18.560
Typically, your manuscript isn't going to be as polished when you send them to your alpha readers.
00:07:18.560 --> 00:07:22.879
So these are your trusted people to get kind of your initial insights in.
00:07:22.879 --> 00:07:24.319
And there's some debates.
00:07:24.319 --> 00:07:27.040
You don't always need an alpha reader, but they're great.
00:07:27.040 --> 00:07:34.000
If, again, if you have any sort of like plot issues that you want to work through or some initial things you'd like to work through with a reader.
00:07:34.240 --> 00:07:38.480
A friend of mine, her sister, reads in the genre that she writes in.
00:07:38.480 --> 00:07:50.720
And so her sister gets to see everything first from the notes of the conception of the idea to the really crappy, maybe it's a first chapter, maybe not.
00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:56.560
I'm not sure where this is going, and helps her brainstorm things, everything from plot to title.
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That's awesome.
00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:57.680
Yeah.
00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.959
That's awesome when you can find someone like that already in your life.
00:08:00.959 --> 00:08:03.199
But I would say they're very special people.
00:08:03.199 --> 00:08:06.959
So critique partners, typically these are going to be other writers.
00:08:06.959 --> 00:08:10.160
And typically they'll be someone that you swap pages with.
00:08:10.160 --> 00:08:13.199
And it's not always the entire manuscript.
00:08:13.199 --> 00:08:22.000
A lot of times it's really just a couple of chapters or a section, and they're there to bounce ideas off each other as writers from that writer perspective.
00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:24.879
And they can come at any stage in the process.
00:08:24.879 --> 00:08:31.519
I don't think they necessarily have to come at the beginning, although you probably would see them more so in the initial drafting phase.
00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:42.240
But so those are your critique partners, and then of course, your beta readers are towards the end of this process, and you do your kind of target market trial almost.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:43.360
They're like your trial readers.
00:08:43.360 --> 00:08:52.399
Does it so these are gonna be your more so readers than writers, although it's great to have a writer in the mix of your beta readers?
00:08:52.399 --> 00:09:00.080
I always like to have a mix more readers than writers, usually, but a mix is great for some kind of diverse feedback, if you will.
00:09:00.240 --> 00:09:08.960
I I think the takeaway here is that a beta reader is someone who's reading for the experience of a finished product.
00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:21.919
And so you're testing that product, knowing that it's probably got some bugs in it, knowing that there's things that you have not seen that you can't see because you and yourself are the author and you hold bias, right?
00:09:21.919 --> 00:09:31.759
So you're hoping that most of it is great, but willing to accept that some of it's probably problematic and you want to know where those problems are for one final polish.
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:32.320
Okay.
00:09:32.320 --> 00:09:33.679
Did we touch everything?
00:09:33.679 --> 00:09:35.279
Oh, sensitivity readers.
00:09:35.279 --> 00:09:55.679
So sensitivity readers, usually these people are paid, and it's someone who is reading the manuscript with a specific lens in mind, trying to make sure that what's represented in the pages is accurate considering whatever culture or identity or experience you're trying to represent, if the writer doesn't come from that particular background.
00:09:55.679 --> 00:10:01.679
So, what do you think some of the biggest misconceptions that writers might have about beta readers?
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:06.240
That beta readers aren't editors, they're gonna tell you how they feel about the manuscript.
00:10:06.240 --> 00:10:09.039
They're also not typically writers, too.
00:10:09.039 --> 00:10:13.440
So sometimes they don't know how to express what might be wrong.
00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:15.519
They might just be able to pick out the problem.
00:10:15.519 --> 00:10:18.320
So that's a big kind of difference there.
00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:29.120
Another thing is I think a lot of people, when they get beta readers and they get the feedback back, they think that they have to take every suggestion that they see on the page.
00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:32.480
And that's not necessarily something that you have to do.
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.960
It's something to definitely take into consideration.
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:36.720
Uh how to handle feedback.
00:10:36.720 --> 00:10:37.279
Exactly.
00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:37.840
Absolutely.
00:10:37.840 --> 00:10:38.399
Yeah.
00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:41.200
So I think that's another big misconception.
00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:50.720
So we said that you want the manuscript in the best shape that you can get it, that your skill level at this moment in time allows it to be.
00:10:50.720 --> 00:10:56.720
But that doesn't necessarily mean it's perfect, but it should not be littered with text.
00:10:56.720 --> 00:10:59.440
Do your best to clean it up.
00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:11.440
Get the plot set, make it make sense, make it read as well as you can make it read, and then go back and fix any spelling or grammar errors as it had are glaring and obvious.
00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:17.440
And the reason being is because you don't want anything to distract your reader from the story.
00:11:17.440 --> 00:11:20.879
That kind of stuff will pull them out of the experience of reading the story.
00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:25.039
And that is the information you're trying to get is what was their experience.
00:11:25.039 --> 00:11:26.159
So, okay.
00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:27.759
Now we talked about what they are.
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:28.960
Let's talk about finding them.
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.679
And you said something interesting that I wanted to ask you about.
00:11:31.679 --> 00:11:36.159
You said, Do you like a mix of writers and readers?
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:38.639
You like to have at least one writer in there.
00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:39.679
Why is that?
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.759
I may get different feedback from different perspectives.
00:11:43.759 --> 00:11:47.360
A writer also can help you with a plot point.
00:11:47.360 --> 00:11:53.360
If they do give you feedback on something that they say this isn't really working, you could say, hey, so how would you change it?
00:11:53.360 --> 00:12:00.399
Or at least ask their perspective on that in a different way that with readers, they might not necessarily be able to do that.
00:12:00.399 --> 00:12:04.879
And I also just think that writers' brains just think differently than readers sometimes.
00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:08.720
Although we are readers too, we think in a very different way.
00:12:08.720 --> 00:12:13.200
So there are some things that a writer will pick up that a reader will not, but vice versa too.
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:19.759
I think that sometimes writers review on more of a granular level than very analytically.
00:12:19.759 --> 00:12:20.639
Exactly.
00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:24.080
Than the reader or a typical reader of the genre might.
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.919
So you get kind of a variety of feedback, and I just personally like that.
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:32.080
So you've used beta readers and you said you found them in a lot of different avenues.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:37.360
What do you think is the most helpful way for a writer to go about hiding beta readers that are appropriate?
00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:42.799
I kind of take a bunch of different approaches, even now that I've taken all these different avenues.
00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:44.080
I still use different avenues.
00:12:44.080 --> 00:12:50.159
So, of course, there's the always the free beta readers versus paid beta reader debate.
00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:52.240
Should you use paid beta readers?
00:12:52.240 --> 00:12:53.840
I like to go for a mix.
00:12:53.840 --> 00:13:04.240
I like to have some that I find are people that I know that might be interested in the genre, but not friends and family, which I'll get to in a second.
00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:10.960
But usually other sometimes that's where I find my other writers that I like to have in that mix.
00:13:10.960 --> 00:13:15.519
And then I have the paid beta readers, which I'll find through different sources.
00:13:15.519 --> 00:13:16.559
Woody is it?
00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:17.279
He has to say.
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:20.879
I'll have to look it up in a second because I can't remember what it's called.
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:23.039
It's not spanyarn, is it?
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:23.919
Oh, okay.
00:13:23.919 --> 00:13:26.399
Um, but they seemed pretty reputable.
00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:29.600
So we'll see how the feedback comes back from them.
00:13:29.600 --> 00:13:32.799
But so it's always fun to try these different avenues, too.
00:13:32.799 --> 00:13:33.679
I think personally.
00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:37.120
That's the joy of the writing process, is getting to try new things.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:42.399
And then, of course, you have your typical fiber readers that you can find on there.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:46.879
I've also found through social media there are a lot of people advertising those kinds of services.
00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:51.279
Sometimes it gets tricky because you want to make sure you're not gonna fall for any scams or anything like that.
00:13:51.279 --> 00:13:56.559
But a lot of times you can see from somebody's profile whether or not they're gonna be a good reader.
00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:03.600
A lot of times, too, they'll have samples that you can look at of beta reader reports that you can see, okay, like their style.
00:14:03.600 --> 00:14:06.240
I think they'll do a good job with my book, or maybe not.
00:14:06.240 --> 00:14:09.919
So I think that's the the two avenues you can take.
00:14:09.919 --> 00:14:13.279
The free option can get a little bit trickier, I think, sometimes.
00:14:13.279 --> 00:14:20.720
But like I said, I usually find people that I know that read the genre and but try to stay away from the friends and family.
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.840
Although I don't think they're always a bad beta reader.
00:14:23.840 --> 00:14:27.200
I think sometimes you can find a great beta reader in that mix.
00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.759
They love it, not give you any kind of critique.
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:30.720
Exactly.
00:14:30.720 --> 00:14:34.080
But I do have some, like my boyfriend's aunt, for example.
00:14:34.080 --> 00:14:40.480
I gave her the book, not thinking I do my own friends and family read as another layer of reading.
00:14:40.480 --> 00:14:46.559
And basically that's literally just for my own confidence to put it out there and see that people like it.
00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:52.799
But it gives you a little bit of confidence to go into than the beta reader stage or any other stage you're gonna be going through after that.
00:14:52.799 --> 00:15:01.039
But anyway, so I had sent her this book and she gave me some of the best critiques that I have ever gotten from sending my book out to someone.
00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:04.399
And I was like, okay, I'm gonna use you next time as a beta reader.
00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:07.279
So you can find them also in your personal network as well.
00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:13.120
I would just stray away from maybe your parents and very close, significant others and that sort of thing.
00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:19.360
The way it worked for me is my first beta readers were people that I found through writing groups, right?
00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:23.759
And then on some of those were like online Facebook groups and things like that.
00:15:23.759 --> 00:15:25.600
And it worked out.
00:15:25.600 --> 00:15:32.000
And then as I progressed along my writing journey, I started to get more specific because at first I was anybody.
00:15:32.000 --> 00:15:34.080
And then I started to get more specific.
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:51.200
And I'm like, no, I want a very specific reader, someone who reads what I write, because I learned my lips sentence that don't give your book to someone who does not really read that genre, unless it's like you said, with your family or your friends, and you're honestly just reading to receive praise.
00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:57.519
There's nothing wrong with handing it like I just gave mine to my mother-in-law, and she will come back and tell me she loves it.
00:15:57.519 --> 00:16:00.720
And she will also catch a bunch of a bunch of typos for me.
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:03.840
But she's not gonna, she's not gonna be critical.
00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:05.360
And I need that too.
00:16:05.360 --> 00:16:10.320
So I need to know what I do just as well, just as much as the things that are working.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:11.919
I've used fiber too.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:20.799
I use fibers very specifically to find sensitivity readers and beta readers because I didn't know anybody in that space that I was writing in.
00:16:20.799 --> 00:16:23.440
This was a male-male romance that I worked on.
00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:33.039
And some of the best people that I found was like if I reached out to somebody on Fiverr and they said, you know, I don't have any space for it, but why don't you go talk to sewing?
00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:40.080
So that word of mouth was actually how I found the beta reader and sensitivity readers that I used.
00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.039
And I paid for that.
00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:42.320
It was well worth it to me.
00:16:42.320 --> 00:16:43.279
Well worth it.
00:16:43.279 --> 00:16:53.360
And then I'm trying something new, and I don't know if you've heard about this, but the shit nobody told you about writing podcast with the host Bianca Mars, I think that's how you pronounce her name.
00:16:53.360 --> 00:16:58.240
She has a beta reading matchup service that is like 25 bucks.
00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.080
And you send 3,000 words of your novel.
00:17:00.159 --> 00:17:01.759
So I'm gonna give that a shot and see.
00:17:01.759 --> 00:17:03.519
So I did that, did you?
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:06.319
So a while ago, and it worked really well.
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:15.599
We didn't stay together, but I feel like if we tried a little bit harder, like I could have found like a forever beta reader or critique partner in that group.
00:17:15.599 --> 00:17:17.359
I thought it was a great experience.
00:17:17.359 --> 00:17:24.160
I was also very young in my writing journey back when I did this a couple years ago.
00:17:24.160 --> 00:17:28.079
So it was a little bit of a different perspective that I was going in with.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:30.960
But you definitely have people from different levels too.
00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:32.079
So I think that's nice.
00:17:32.079 --> 00:17:41.519
I think it's always good to see where people are in their journey and to be able to help people but also learn from people is the best situation to be in.
00:17:42.079 --> 00:17:42.880
Absolutely.
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:45.200
There's another one called Spun Yarn.
00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:50.400
I don't know if you've heard of it, but it is a paid beta reading service and it's expensive.
00:17:50.400 --> 00:18:03.920
And I don't know anything, I have never used it, but and you get th three beta readers that are matched up with your specific genre and an age category.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:06.319
Apparently they're vetted and all these things.
00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:17.279
So if anybody out there has used Penny Art, please send me an email and let me know what your experience has been like because I'm highly interested to know.
00:18:17.279 --> 00:18:23.759
And the other thing, once a friend of mine has off of her mailing list, she just has some some super fans.
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:28.319
And they have become beta readers of her books before they go out.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:37.200
Once you get a little farther along and you start publishing and people are liking what you put out, sometimes you can latch onto one of those fans and be like, hey, you want to be an early reader?
00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.519
They're like so the one that I'm using is called Beta Side.
00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:46.960
So they sent me a spreadsheet with all of the beta readers that they found for me.
00:18:46.960 --> 00:18:52.400
So they basically I give them the blurb and they advertise it, and then the readers pick.
00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.559
And it was a paid service, of course.
00:18:54.559 --> 00:19:03.279
And they have, I think they have nine for me or something crazy, which they only guaranteed five, I think, five or six.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:06.799
And they said they give you nine, but sometimes you'll have people that bail.
00:19:06.799 --> 00:19:13.440
Well, I'm wondering if that's why they give you the nine, and then they figure they'll guarantee that at least six of them will respond.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:14.799
So we'll see how it goes.
00:19:14.799 --> 00:19:15.599
I'm hopeful.
00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:18.319
I'm really interested to see how your experience is.
00:19:18.319 --> 00:19:18.960
Oh, let's just know.
00:19:18.960 --> 00:19:20.799
Yes, keep me posted.
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:31.519
And I'll make sure that we hit all of these names in the show notes so I and links if I can find them so that other people can go explore.
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.279
So it's nine beta readers.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:35.119
Okay, so that brings up a really good question.
00:19:35.119 --> 00:19:37.680
Do you think there's too much there's such a thing as too many?
00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.480
I think nine is probably too many, but I am not expecting that many back.
00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:43.920
So I think it's gonna be okay.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.720
And I think trying out this service was worth it.
00:19:46.720 --> 00:19:48.400
So we'll see how it goes.
00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:52.000
But I think generally three to six is what I shoot for.
00:19:52.000 --> 00:19:58.880
Six can be a little much, but again, if I'm trying something new and I don't know if it's gonna be good, then usually I'll go for the higher number.
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:03.119
But if it's people that I know and that I've used before, then I'll shoot for the three.
00:20:03.119 --> 00:20:05.200
So definitely depends.
00:20:05.200 --> 00:20:08.799
And with my last book, I did two rounds of beta reading.
00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:10.000
So that's also an option.
00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:12.799
You don't have to put all your eggs in one basket at one time.
00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:19.279
You can have one or two people read it and then decide, hey, I need more feedback, and then have more people read it.
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:27.839
And in that time, I made some tweaks, some edits, not substantial, I would say, to the story, but based on some of the advice that I'd gotten in my first round.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:29.680
So the second round was a little bit different.
00:20:29.680 --> 00:20:32.720
And so I got a little bit of some different feedback.
00:20:32.720 --> 00:20:34.799
So that's all also always an option.
00:20:35.039 --> 00:20:36.880
Yeah, fair and a smart idea.
00:20:36.880 --> 00:20:38.400
And I've done the same thing too.
00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:47.440
It's like you have taken what feedback I wanted to add in that first round, incorporated it, and then went kicked it off to a couple different people, how it landed.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.559
And if I seem to solve the issues that were present in the first.
00:20:52.559 --> 00:20:55.680
So three of five is typically what I do.
00:20:55.680 --> 00:21:02.000
Let's just briefly go over what would make someone a good beta reader for your work.
00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:08.160
So I know you already mentioned, but somebody that reads the genre pretty frequently at least.
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:18.160
You also want someone that's going to not be afraid to give you some critiques to actually not just better you up, but maybe actually tell you what.
00:21:18.160 --> 00:21:19.519
Be honest.
00:21:19.519 --> 00:21:20.960
Be honest, yeah.
00:21:20.960 --> 00:21:23.839
So I think those are the two big points there.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:26.400
So just a repeat here.
00:21:26.400 --> 00:21:28.880
They need to be an avid reader of your genre.
00:21:28.880 --> 00:21:33.279
They need to be a reliable person who's not gonna drop off the edge of the earth.
00:21:33.279 --> 00:21:37.359
If it's a paid service, then they need to be a reputable person, right?
00:21:37.359 --> 00:21:40.720
And they need to be willing to give you honest feedback.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.799
And also, I would say honor the feedback that you're requesting.
00:21:44.799 --> 00:21:53.440
And you don't want them, if they come at you with you need to change everything, that's not the person you want to listen to.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:59.839
I definitely had some people that have come to me in my service that are saying, I have not finished lineup.
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:00.640
Editing yet.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:03.279
Don't tell me anything that has to do with line edits.
00:22:03.279 --> 00:22:04.720
I want to know everything else.
00:22:04.720 --> 00:22:06.480
But I'm not quite there yet.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.200
And that was something I had to take into consideration.
00:22:09.200 --> 00:22:13.279
And I think she appreciated it that I did and I focused on the other stuff.
00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:21.519
Not that typically you're going to focus on the line edit as much in a beta read, but that was something she explicitly wanted me to kind of steer clear from.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:27.359
Let's talk about how to control what kind of feedback you're getting and how to use it.
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:32.000
So, what do you think writers want to ask their betas to focus on?
00:22:32.400 --> 00:22:35.279
Is pretty personal in some respects.
00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:38.400
I think there are the general questions that you want to ask.
00:22:38.400 --> 00:22:41.440
Were there elements of the book that you really enjoyed?
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:43.680
Were there things that raised an eyebrow?
00:22:43.680 --> 00:22:51.279
I don't like to ask more than one or two general questions before I get into like the niche questions that'll actually give me more usable feedback.
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:59.759
One of the things I personally love to ask is about the market and about what are some other books that you have seen in this genre?
00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:02.079
Just because I am terrible at comps.
00:23:02.079 --> 00:23:03.200
And so this helps me.
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.119
Now, what does my book remind you of?
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:07.119
What other books did my book remind you of?
00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:07.839
Is that a question?
00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:08.240
Yeah.
00:23:08.240 --> 00:23:09.519
That's a great question.
00:23:09.519 --> 00:23:21.680
So those kind of questions to help me orient my marketing, which is the next step in the plan after I have a book together, but it's whatever you need help with.
00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:36.559
Some people like to ask specifically about certain characters and whether this character was relatable or like some some things that they have, I guess, doubts about or things that they're they've been focusing on and they want to make sure it comes across.
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:38.559
Those are great questions to ask.
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:47.200
A lot of the paid beta services, I will say, have their own questionnaire, but a lot of them also let you ask extra questions, which is where then Yeah.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:54.720
So I find that the way I've asked for beta feedback has changed.
00:23:54.720 --> 00:24:00.079
And and the specific feedback of Asport has changed as I've grown as a writer.
00:24:00.079 --> 00:24:02.799
Like in the beginning, I didn't ask any questions.
00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:03.920
I was just like, here you go.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:04.720
Wait, right.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:07.599
That's tell me what you think.
00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.279
Not great, right?
00:24:09.279 --> 00:24:18.640
And as I went along, I learned to ask for specific questions of the things I was worried about.
00:24:18.640 --> 00:24:21.039
Like, is my character empathetic enough?
00:24:21.039 --> 00:24:25.200
Because I tend to write these characters that are not kind of great, right?
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:29.039
They're not they're not coddly and hugging puppies.
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.319
So I want to make sure the reader can invest in them, right?
00:24:32.319 --> 00:24:34.960
For me, that's always been a big question for me.
00:24:34.960 --> 00:24:39.039
Were you compelled by my character and why?
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:41.599
And then always plot.
00:24:41.599 --> 00:24:44.400
Like I was there anything that didn't make sense?
00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:47.599
That's a really big question that has come up for me.
00:24:47.599 --> 00:24:52.160
Though I always like to ask, was there any place where you were confused and where?
00:24:52.160 --> 00:24:54.640
And if why were you confused?
00:24:54.640 --> 00:24:56.319
So I think that's helpful.
00:24:56.319 --> 00:24:59.599
And then where did you want to put the book down?
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:01.680
Where were you bored or tired?
00:25:01.680 --> 00:25:07.599
And if it's a writer that I'm working with that's reading my manuscript, I can ask them why.
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:12.000
And they can usually tell me I'm not invested in the character's motivation at this point.
00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.839
Or this is was out of the blue and I don't know where this came from.
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:21.920
Or this scene is just moving anything forward.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.359
So I'm gonna get that kind of feedback.
00:25:23.359 --> 00:25:25.839
If it's just a general reader, you say, I don't know.
00:25:25.839 --> 00:25:28.400
I just it's bored.
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:36.880
It's and the other thing I like to ask is like for right, for example, the book that I'm gonna send to you, I've sent you a list of questions.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:39.440
So I really want to know, are these voices distinct enough?
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:40.960
Because that's a big worry.
00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:50.640
And did did the balance of those POVs feel right to deliver an ending that's satisfying for both characters to the reader?
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:52.160
So those are the things on pigment.
00:25:52.160 --> 00:26:01.839
Now, I think everybody's gonna have kind of a different preference, but do you have your beta readers look at your questions that you send them first?
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:09.680
Or do you ask them specifically, like, hey, these are some questions I want you to address, but please read the manuscript first and then look at the questions?
00:26:10.000 --> 00:26:17.680
Much prefer my beta readers look at the questions first and then they know what they're looking for, particularly with those that aren't writers.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:24.640
I think this guides them a little bit in what I want them to focus on, because I don't always want them to focus on everything.
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:26.960
I want them to look at my specific questions.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:32.240
So that's typically how I would prefer, but I could see the benefit though.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:37.200
I've never done it the other way, but I could see the benefit in asking the questions second.
00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:39.279
I think it's probably personal preference.
00:26:39.519 --> 00:26:41.119
I think it might be a good experiment.
00:26:41.119 --> 00:26:50.960
I don't, I've never done it, but just to have a batch of beta readers who read the manuscript first and then answer the questions, and a badge of beta readers who do it the other way and see see what comes out of it.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:27:03.440
And I think it's really important to note that when you're working with a beta reader, you definitely want to set a depth in like with you and I, like we're in communication, we're keeping each other updated where we're at, still waiting for me.
00:27:03.440 --> 00:27:10.480
But we told each other ahead of time, like about how much time we expected things to take us, and that will turn those things around.
00:27:10.480 --> 00:27:15.680
So I think that's just made important to set expectations up for okay.
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:21.200
So now once you get the feedback, how do you decide what to listen to and what to ignore?
00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:24.160
Or what do you do first once you get feedback?
00:27:24.160 --> 00:27:25.119
What do you do?
00:27:25.359 --> 00:27:28.319
I read it and then I put it away for a bit.
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:30.000
And then I come back to it.
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:36.480
Just usually at least a couple days to let myself marinate on it, particularly if it's pretty critical.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:42.079
But even if it's not, I think then you let it like meld a little bit in your mind and think it over.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:46.480
And then you can see, I think, some of those points where you're like, okay, this makes sense.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:49.680
And then, okay, this point doesn't actually make any sense at all.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:55.759
But most of the time you do get pr pretty good feedback if you go through a good source, of course.
00:27:55.759 --> 00:28:07.359
But usually if it's something that maybe more than one reader picked up on, then I'm definitely gonna look at it with more of a fine-tooth comb and go through that section a little bit more.
00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.880
Because if it's more than one person picks up on it without really even prompting it, then that's definitely something I'm gonna look into.
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:22.240
But if it's something that seems like maybe personal preference, I didn't like that these two characters didn't get together in the end.
00:28:22.240 --> 00:28:24.720
Then I'm not gonna listen to something like that.
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:30.640
And maybe you will have good reads readers later that come back and complain about your characters.
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:42.319
But at that point, I think that you're the writer, so you can do whatever you want in that perspective in in terms of the creativity of your story and the drive of what you want people to feel at the end, that sort of thing.
00:28:42.319 --> 00:28:45.200
So those are my the way I approach it.
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:50.160
Yeah, I definitely read it, put it away.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:55.119
Depends on what it's said, whether I fall under my desk or go lay out.
00:28:55.119 --> 00:29:00.480
Yeah, have you ever gotten feedback that just stung from a beta reader?
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:01.119
Absolutely.
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:13.920
I have found that some of the best beta readers that I have are critical, but they also do provide because there's always, I think, nice things to say about a manuscript.
00:29:13.920 --> 00:29:16.000
I have a couple books under our belt.
00:29:16.000 --> 00:29:18.960
So there are definitely some nice things people can say.
00:29:18.960 --> 00:29:24.000
So I think some of the best feedback that I've gotten has been that's a a bit of a mix.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:31.119
So they say some nice things, but also give me critiques, and so then I don't feel bad about myself, but then I have things to work on.
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:32.720
Those are the ones I try to shoot for.
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:40.240
I think learning to take any type of feedback is a a learning experience, and it's also a skill.
00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:43.279
So as you get better as you practice.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:53.680
So yeah, don't I think the big takeaway for me, and hopefully for anybody new out there, is that one, you don't have to listen to all feedback, right?
00:29:53.680 --> 00:29:56.400
And sometimes it's not gonna make sense.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.559
Uh readers can make errors.
00:29:58.559 --> 00:30:00.160
Don't be disheartened.
00:30:00.160 --> 00:30:07.039
And if you're beta reading for anybody out there, make sure to note the things that you like as well as the things that confuse you.
00:30:07.039 --> 00:30:11.440
Because you are handling somebody's heart and soul.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:19.200
Oh, specifically, do you have any tips for writers in the mystery or thriller genre?
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:23.359
Since that's where you write if they're going out to beta and they write in that genre.
00:30:23.359 --> 00:30:27.119
Anything specific that type of writer should be thinking about.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:30.079
I like to ask, did you guess the ending?
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:31.920
Well, where were the twists?
00:30:31.920 --> 00:30:33.519
Did you enjoy the twists?
00:30:33.519 --> 00:30:35.119
Those kind of questions.
00:30:35.119 --> 00:30:41.599
Because I think those are very hard from a writer's perspective to see if you actually nailed or not.
00:30:41.599 --> 00:30:50.160
It's impossible because even if you're pantsing and you don't know, and at that point in the book, it's still to know later when you edit.
00:30:50.160 --> 00:30:50.720
Exactly.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:52.079
It's still really hard.
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:56.640
So those are the big things that I would hit on in that space for sure.
00:30:56.880 --> 00:30:57.440
Yeah.
00:30:57.440 --> 00:31:10.559
I think and it's worth saying that once your manuscripts, like if you're writing mystery or thriller or suspense and you give it off to somebody to beta read, that beta reader can only read it once.
00:31:10.559 --> 00:31:15.279
Even if you change it really substantially, because they know those twists.
00:31:15.279 --> 00:31:16.160
They know.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:18.720
So it's gonna alter their experience.
00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.480
Yeah, that it makes it hard.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:24.079
You can't go back to them with the same book and say, Does this work now?
00:31:24.079 --> 00:31:25.200
Are you more surprised?
00:31:25.200 --> 00:31:26.559
Because it doesn't work.
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:27.119
Okay.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:33.920
This is the the heart of the podcast is getting at the pieces of the writing process that are hard.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:40.960
Not just on the technical side, but just hard because it's part of being a vulnerable human, right?
00:31:40.960 --> 00:31:46.559
And we most people in general don't like to show where they bleed.
00:31:46.559 --> 00:31:50.880
But I think it's really important that we do so and normalizes as the experience, right?
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.759
So that everybody understands that this is hard for everybody.
00:31:53.759 --> 00:32:00.640
So, in that light, sharing a manuscript with readers can be an incredibly vulnerable experience.
00:32:00.640 --> 00:32:07.279
So, what would you say to the writer who's terrified to let someone else read their work because they're afraid it's not gonna be good?
00:32:08.240 --> 00:32:09.279
You have to do it.
00:32:09.279 --> 00:32:17.279
If you want to actually get feedback and progress as a writer and get better, that's the way to do it.
00:32:17.279 --> 00:32:22.240
And it's tough love, I think, but it's what the only way to get better.
00:32:22.240 --> 00:32:24.720
You're not gonna get better just by yourself.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:32.960
And yeah, you'll become a little bit better of a writer and editor on your own, but that feedback's so important and I think it's really invaluable.
00:32:32.960 --> 00:32:46.079
We can always start with sending the first chapter to your best friend and having them tell you that it's great and build that confidence by just sharing pieces of your work with someone before you're ready to go in with the whole manuscript.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:48.960
And I think that was really helpful for me when I kind of first started.
00:32:48.960 --> 00:32:49.759
I did that.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:32:54.960
I also joined a writing circle and we would share a thousand words at a time.
00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:01.839
So it wasn't like I would read the whole thing, but it was something small, like a manageable piece that I was terrified the first time I did it.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:06.079
But now I'm not as scared to read a piece that I've written in front of people.
00:33:06.079 --> 00:33:07.359
It takes practice though.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:16.240
Even after multiple times doing it, it's still gonna be a little bit scary when you hit that send button and your manuscript is now off to somebody else.
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:20.720
So it gets easier, but I wouldn't say it never stops being hard.
00:33:20.720 --> 00:33:22.400
And I love that.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.440
So it's like tough love and take baby steps.
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:30.319
And that's it so true because it's incredibly valuable.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:39.359
And I think the other thing is just understand that nobody just wakes up knowing how to do this, right?
00:33:39.359 --> 00:33:41.680
So if you're new here, welcome.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:55.200
And I think if you one come into it with the spirit of I'm new here and I'm learning, so I instead of I'm standing up against and with people who are way better than me.
00:33:55.200 --> 00:33:59.200
Everybody starts from ground zero at some point or time or another.
00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:04.400
When you start at ground zero, it might be different than so-and-so over there, but everybody starts at the same levels.
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:10.000
And then for writers that have been doing this for a while, we need to remember that everybody starts at ground zero.
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:10.320
Right.
00:34:10.320 --> 00:34:13.840
And hold on to the memory so that we don't become not humble.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.920
But I think every book too kind of humbles you a little bit.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:18.079
Yeah.
00:34:18.079 --> 00:34:21.119
I feel like every time I send a new one, it humbles me.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:28.880
And then I feel a little better towards the end of having this manuscript and sending it out and finishing putting the final touches on it.
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:30.239
And then it starts all over again.
00:34:30.239 --> 00:34:37.360
And the fun part about writing, though, is you get to do something over and over again, but it's a different journey each time.
00:34:37.360 --> 00:34:39.280
So I think that's a lot of fun.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:39.760
Yeah.
00:34:39.760 --> 00:34:47.920
So if you're of the mindset that you're gonna nail it in one crack, this book is gonna be a painful ride for you.
00:34:47.920 --> 00:34:50.079
I'm gonna suggest your mindset.
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:50.559
Yeah.
00:34:50.559 --> 00:35:02.960
So what's the one thing you think a writer who's considering using a beta reader can do today to start preparing either themselves or their manuscript for that experience?
00:35:03.519 --> 00:35:14.639
Just getting comfortable with getting feedback and with sending pieces of your book to someone, I think is a great way to get your feet wet in that space.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:25.599
And then also just connecting with other writers, whether that's in person, whether that's on social media or whatever, so that you can start building that network too is also helpful.
00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:29.519
That way you can one find these people when you're ready for them.
00:35:29.519 --> 00:35:34.480
But also you have the encouragement to get started when you're ready.
00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:35.440
All right.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:37.440
Thank you so much.
00:35:37.440 --> 00:35:40.639
I think that's a great place to leave off today.
00:35:40.639 --> 00:35:42.880
So thank you so much for your time.
00:35:42.880 --> 00:35:47.039
And please let us know where listeners can connect with you.
00:35:47.039 --> 00:35:52.800
But also please let us know where we can find you online and what's coming next for you.
00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:56.800
Yeah, so my website is my author name, K-A Wild.
00:35:56.800 --> 00:36:00.239
That's W-I-L-D-E author.com.
00:36:00.239 --> 00:36:09.840
I'm also on X pretty active there at K-A-Wild Author, and then also on Instagram at k.a.wild.
00:36:09.840 --> 00:36:19.519
And so coming next for me, I have some uh or a manuscript in the beta space right now, out with some beta readers.
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:24.239
So right now I'm distracting myself by starting my next manuscript.
00:36:24.239 --> 00:36:25.360
It's been really fun.
00:36:25.360 --> 00:36:28.960
I'm writing a locked room mystery, maybe a thriller.
00:36:28.960 --> 00:36:30.719
We'll see how it comes together.
00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:33.519
I'm not quite sure yet, but so far it's been a lot of fun.
00:36:33.519 --> 00:36:44.079
So that's what I'm doing until I get the feedback back and then I'll start actually querying this thing, which will be exciting, of course, after my editing process, because I will have some edits.
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:49.679
There's already things that I've thought of that I'm like, maybe I should add these little like sprinkles in here and there.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:52.960
I will have some edits and then yeah, hopefully get the package out.
00:36:52.960 --> 00:36:54.000
But Brandon.
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.840
Make sure to list all of your connection links in the show notes.
00:36:57.840 --> 00:36:59.840
And thanks for joining us.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:02.480
Thank you for listening to the Write It Scared podcast.
00:37:02.480 --> 00:37:06.880
If you enjoyed today's show, please make sure to hit the follow button so you never miss an episode.
00:37:06.880 --> 00:37:08.400
And please leave a review.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:13.920
Reviews help other writers like you find the voices and messages they need to hear to continue to write their stories.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:15.280
Let's lift each other up.
00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:18.320
Remember, you can be scared and still be unstoppable.
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:19.360
I'll see you soon.
