Punching a Great White Shark in the Face ↣ James Eastman

James: He had a little joint in his hand and he walks up to me super casually as like I'm on the beach with blood and stuff and he offers me the joint and he just goes, Medicinal marijuana
Robin: Hello and welcome to the Wild Dispatch. I'm Robin, and I'm back with more skills and stories from the wild. We have an exceptionally wild story for you today. I'm excited to share this one. I've had it in my pocket for a little while, but first of all I wanna give a quick apology. I have been having far too much fun. This is a very English apology, I guess. Running around the woods having all kinds of amazing experiences, fishing, hunting, foraging, with great success. it is absolute prime time right now and I think for my own mental health it has been really healthy this year, rather than stressing about trying to hit deadlines all the time and get episodes out. I have been committed to making sure that I am chasing the adventures that I really enjoy that are kind of sum up who I am. So unfortunately that comes with a few consequences, which means that episodes are a little less frequent and maybe not always the exact day that they're supposed to be, but I've made peace with that. Today we have an amazing guest, James Eastman. Many of you will know that name who are from around this area, will know him as a dedicated teacher. Also, perhaps some of you will know his restless underlayer that drives him to get out there and do interesting stuff. That might be backpacking or fly fishing or punching a great white shark in the face. Yes, James Eastman is a survivor of a shark attack. He is a lifelong surfer and he has spent many, many, many days on the ocean. So Statistically, I guess you would say he's maybe more likely than others to get bitten, but we're gonna talk about that and the fact that he maybe even knew that this was gonna happen before it did We talk about a bunch of stuff in this episode, but something I want to bring up up front is a project that has come about from this attack. James' wife, Chloe, is an emergency room nurse and she, from this experience, has been motivated to create a new project. It's called the Minutes Matter project. It's an amazing thing that is now gaining a lot of momentum. Basically their idea is to provide emergency equipment at beaches where there are often surfers so that people who might be in a similar situation can quickly get the very important Things that they need to save lives, like tourniques and that kind of stuff, because ultimately, if you get bitten by a shark and you are bleeding out and you are on a beach with no signal and no one around, then you're gonna be in trouble. So this is a great idea, I'm gonna put some links down in the show notes. They have a website, MinutesMatterproject.org, and also you should follow them on Instagram so that you can get updates on how that's progressing. I believe that is Minutes Matter Project or at Minutes Matter Project on Instagram too. Right, Here's my fantastic conversation with James. Okay. And that's working. I'm trying to remember to keep an eye on that flashy light. James, welcome to the podcast dude.
James: Excited to be here.
Robin: Yeah, we just jump straight in. I mean you've heard me waffling enough for the last forty five minutes when I settled
James: pleasure to watch.
Robin: It's a performance piece. we were just talking well, we've been talking about a bunch of stuff, but I was curious to hear about your mountain line, your pet mountain line that you have here. You got a camera, so what so what's going on?
James: Well, yeah, so we first saw it in November on the cam. And we hadn't put the cam back up after that. we're really bad at recharging the batteries and getting it back out there, but yeah, we got one little video of it just walking down the path. And then the last week, on our back fence line I noticed just I saw a poop, you know? I was like, Ooh, that doesn't look like a bear, that doesn't look like a raccoon or a fox or anything. And so I like in my head I thought it was a mountain lion, took a picture and went on the AI and
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: And yeah, I was like, you know, poke it with a stick and see if there's deer hair in there. It's
Robin: Yeah.
James: like fatty and stuff like that. So I went out there. So it was Yeah,
Robin: Fresh then it was like wet.
James: yeah. And then so I noticed that poop and then like a couple of feet away I noticed that there was like another poop that was significantly drier and then I went The other direction I I noticed one that was like extremely fresh, like probably the night before. Okay. You know, so it it's been I don't know what it's been doing on that back fence line, but it's just been hanging out and pooping back there. Yeah,
Robin: It's a bathroom there.
James: yeah. Well, I put the trail cam back up, but I didn't make sure that it was actually working, so it
Robin: Yeah.
James: wasn't showing anything. I didn't get any recordings. But I gotta get it back out there and see if it's hanging out there on a nightly basis.
Robin: Yeah, I'm surprised that 'cause it's like I mean, I don't know a lot about mountain lions. Should probably interview someone about them I guess. But they they can be they have a huge range apparently. So they can only be they c it can often just be like a fleeting moment that they're in an area.
James: Right, I know. I thought it was really weird, but it was definitely like multiple days of poops. Yep.
Robin: Yeah, that is weird.
James: And something so don't know eventually we'll talk about the shark attack, but the fishing games guy came over here afterwards and he was telling us that mountain lions really don't like house cats. And well we don't, but we have these two for the last month or two we've had these two neighborhood cats in our yard. which kinda drives me crazy 'cause I'm kinda I love the birds and I don't want them to get the birds.
Robin: Yeah.
James: and but they've been here pretty much on a daily basis and now they're gone. Like gone, gone. Yeah.
Robin: Maybe gone, gone. Yeah. Yeah.
James: I don't know what happened to them, but we have we we were away, which is when I think the mountain lion was coming through, and ever since we've been back we have not seen the house cats. Mm. So I think The I don't know. The fish and games guys said they see it as like a territorial threat. Yes. And so they'll come and just try to like eliminate the threat. so maybe that's what was going down. I don't know. Yeah.
Robin: Yeah, it would make sense. You probably should check the the poops over there a little bit closer. You might see some cat fur in there.
James: Yeah.
Robin: No, they've got a rep for that, haven't they? Yeah, it's pretty wild man. Yeah, but it's incredible having them around, right?
James: I love yeah, yeah, I mean my attitude toward them is probably not a safe attitude. Like I love the Mount Lions. I just wanna see and I'm not scared of them for some reason, which I know I should be. my wife on the other hand is like absolutely terrified. And we have a one year old, so that's awesome.
Robin: Running around in the garden.
James: Who's running around in the garden, so that's not ideal either. But
Robin: Yeah, I can understand why that might be a concern.
James: Yeah.
Robin: I mean, you know, they I I often think about like how many times we're being watched walking through the the bush or the trees or wherever and they're just there on a tree just like watching us chilling. They don't need to bother.
James: I know. They they're yeah, I think about that a lot. How many times have we been close to some sort of like predatory animal and just have no idea?
Robin: Yeah.
James: And yeah.
Robin: It's just like kind of at the choice of the predator, whether it's the right moment or not, whether they've eaten a snack already. Yeah. All those things.
James: Yeah, or like what sort of vibe they're picking up from you or
Robin: Yeah, right. Like and I mean I guess my wife is also like gets the kind of shivers from the idea of mountain lines around I can understand, you know, she's smaller, like we're like big guys who kind of pride ourselves on being tough and that kind of thing. Maybe not that extreme, but you know what I mean? I think we project a different kind of thing potentially. So maybe it would make sense to
James: No, I I mean I my I think my attitude toward mountain lions is kinda dumb, you know. Like and it's totally at odds with my attitude toward sharks. Like I'm completely paranoid about sharks. Yeah. And Mountain Lions, I don't know, it just they they d it doesn't give me the same sort of I don't know, eerie, scary vibe for whatever reason.
Robin: So were you always paranoid about sharing.
James: Sharks. Always paranoid about sharks. Yeah.
Robin: So you did you did you think that you were gonna get hit by get hit by a shark before?
James: I've never had an encounter with a shark. I had one in Manhattan Beach when I was in my mid twenties probably, but it was just like like a six foot baby shark and it was just like doing little circles fifteen feet away from us and I mean we kinda panicked and went in when we saw it, but it wasn't a terrifying encounter.
Robin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
James: And you know, I've seen Not here, but I've seen like reef sharks and stuff like that diving other places and that didn't really freak me out either. but the idea of a great white like coming out of the of the deep and getting me as always terrified me. You know? And like I remember in high school we wa I took this marine biology class and we watched Jaws
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: in the class. And then the next day I went surfing, down in Huntington Beach and There was these buoys out in the water and I was terrified.
Robin: They're the same the same kind there on the
James: it was totally irrational, like the buoys were like completely still, you know, like not moving around at all, but I would not go near It's just like there there's gonna be a shark attack attached to that thing, it's gonna get me and yeah.
Robin: But it didn't stop you from surfing.
James: No.
Robin: Yeah, that's interesting. I mean it shows shows your love. Yeah. Your love for the sport. I'm just gonna adjust my levels here 'cause I am wait, which one am I? That one. Tell me, I'm I'm a little bit heavy. Hot and heavy on this. So Where to start? I guess it's curious. When I was talking to your friend Derek yesterday, I was surprised to hear that he said like of all people, James is the one who has been very conscious and very aware and kind of had a side eye about sharks in the past. So it's so strange that he's the one that got attacked.
James: Yeah. This sounds ridiculous, but I always kinda thought I would be attacked.
Robin: That's what I was kind of getting at with a question before. It's like did you imagine that you would like so
James: I don't know. It's sort of a weird thing and this is gonna sound totally crazy, but in the last few months, like it just seemed like a very real possibility. Like before Yeah, before it happened. I know that's sort of insane to say, but like I just it felt like there was like some sort of premonition. Like like this was going to happen. But I will ha I will say that on the day that it actually happened, I I it was not on my mind at all.
Robin: Okay.
James: We think of Big River as like the safest place around here, which is totally dumb, you know? It's still a river mouth. It's it's just completely vibes, you know.
Robin: And when you say it completely vibes, you mean there are traits of all river mouths that mean that it would be a good spot for sharks?
James: Yeah. So river mouths are notoriously sharky, like across the world. I was talking to a s shark researcher after the attack and he said that the main reason is that like things die up river and then the scent or or whatever like flows out of the river and so sharks are attack attracted to river mouths for that reason. There's also of course like seals and sea lions food flowing and salmon and steelhead and all that sort of stuff. so yeah, there's just like a a food flow there
Robin: Yeah.
James: and a death flow there that they're attracted to. yeah, so when I say vibes, I mean surfers always have kind of ideas about which places are sharky and which places aren't sharky. Uh-huh. and We all kind of agree around here that at least prior to the attack that Big River was a safe s safer place, whereas like a place like Blues or whatever up north that's like extremely sharky. And
Robin: Okay.
James: there was an attack there like over a decade ago. Not at Blues specifically, but very near there.
Robin: Was that where the guy who's dying for Avaloni?
James: Yeah, yeah. So that didn't happen at blues specifically, but only l like a mile or two away from there. but it's basically just, you know, Big River is close to town, there's people on the beach. It's like a little cove, you know. Right.
Robin: Yeah, it's holiday vibes.
James: Whereas blues is up north, it's more rugged, there's nobody there, it just has a much more wide open Deep ocean sort of vibe and yeah. So it feels a lot scarier.
Robin: So we're gonna jump into your story, like you everything you remember. But tell me the context of the attack, blues. Do you know that story? Do you know what happened there?
James: I don't know exactly what happened. I know that he was I think in either urchin or abalone diver
Robin: Okay.
James: and I'm he got de decapitated, which is pretty gnarly.
Robin: Pretty gnarly. Yeah.
James: but that was the last attack, at least on this part of the coast, and that was I think fifteen years ago. Yeah. And then there was a you know, another one this year. A little bit further south than Wallala also. Was there? Yeah.
Robin: Interesting. What happened with that?
James: that one was gnarly. That was also at the river mouth.
Robin: Okay.
James: the Wa Wallala River. I think it was in January
Robin: Okay.
James: and mine was in March.
Robin: This was all while I was away in South Africa. So I I kinda missed some of this new
James: Yeah. So, it was a gnarly attack. I don't wanna, you know, tell his story, but he got really lucky as far as I can tell. and I think from what I know he was just sitting there on his board. I think he was out alone, but maybe there was a person on the beach that he was friends with that was you know, they were associated. and it was just a full committed attack and launched him out of the water and
Robin: Wow.
James: s broke his board and yeah it was broke his well I think the shark
Robin: Wow. The force of the hit. Yeah. Or the bite.
James: the bite I think the the board even got stuck in the the shark's mouth or something like that. again I don't I wanna tell his story but it sounded like a very violent attack.
Robin: Yeah.
James: and Yeah, but he survived. Okay. Yeah.
Robin: Yeah, it's I mean, it happens, It's it's a thing.
James: Yeah. And apparent I think it's gonna happen more and more.
Robin: Why do you say that?
James: All of the experts I've been talking to, or the fish in games, the shark researcher, there's just more sharks than there used to be. you know, we can't fish them anymore, that you can't kill them, obviously. Plus there's been a massive increase in seal and sea lion population through protection and stuff like that. So there's way more food than there used to be.
Robin: So then there's more animals.
James: So there's w a lot more animals.
Robin: A lot more than predators. There's more food for the predators. Yeah. I guess then a higher chance of something going wrong.
James: Yeah. So I think it's gonna be an interesting kind of near future with the shark attacks. I I think there could be more 'cause it just seems like there's a lot more sharks than there used to be.
Robin: Yeah. So let's talk about your attack.
James: Mm-hmm.
Robin: And I'm sure we'll hop around all over the place with some other things, but it's it's the it's such a I mean, I've got so many questions.
James: Yeah, yeah.
Robin: So let's describe Big River, just so that people have an idea the exact what we're looking at. I mean it's a river mouth. Yeah. And and jump in and add extra detail. As far as I understand, it's like it's it's Big River, it's a big it's a big river mouth. It's it's a sandy beach the area. There's a lot of like a lot of tourists going up and down. There's people who like swim that river mouth every week. There's like a open water kind of swimming club that swim up and down the river but not actually in the ocean. They don't go in the ocean. Yeah.
James: yeah, it's just right in town in in Mendocino. You know, Mendocino is a little tourist town.
Robin: Yeah.
James: for all the surfers out there, I just wanna say like most of the time Big River sucks, so just don't get any ideas that you know there's this No,
Robin: Just trying to protect your spot.
James: no, I'm j I'm just honest advice. Mendocino is not a good place to surf for the most part. You know, but I occasionally it does get good. and yeah, it's just depending on where the the water's flowing out, changes the wave a lot.
Robin: Okay.
James: So sometimes it flows out on the south side of the beach. It's in a little cove with rocks on both sides and if it flows out on the the south side it kind of creates like a little wedgie left and but if we get a lot of rain pushes the river mouth to the north side of the beach and then it becomes more rights. but again, most of the time it's really not a very good place to surf. It's just like it seems like it should be a lot better because river mouths can be really good, but for the most part it's just kinda like a fun place to next to town and then every once in a while it gets good.
Robin: Yeah.
James: But it hap like you know, I've been living here for ten years and I've seen it proper good where it's doing the thing that like you want it to do twice over ten years. So it's just a yeah.
Robin: Okay, two questions. Many questions, but two main questions. Why are you there if it's not very good? Yeah. And is it I'm guessing it's because of convenience?
James: Well, so I would just say that northern Mendocino County in general is just not a very good place to surf. Okay. Like I like and I'm not just saying that for all potential surfers out there. it's just a really difficult place to surf. you know, it's not like Santa Cruz or Southern California where you have kind of consistent setups.
Robin: Yeah.
James: And the the attraction for me, at least surfing up here, is just that like the waves aren't as good as they are in other places of California, but there's no there's nobody around. Yeah. It's uncrowded.
Robin: Okay.
James: so and as a person that I just can't deal with crowd surfing, that that's extremely important to me.
Robin: Is it?
James: Yeah. And it's not that big river is terrible, like it can be fun. And like I said, occasionally it does get really good. but it gets really good maybe once or twice every five years for for like a week, you know, or like some random day. You know, it's it's like it's the thing about surfing in Mendocino is we get just so much swell.
Robin: Yeah, yeah. I I see that regularly.
James: And it the s and we don't have points or reefs or anything like that. Mm-hmm. So it's just constant sand movement. So
Robin: Okay.
James: and so you have to be completely dialed into, you know, where is the sand good at this exact moment and you know, the winds and swell and all that sort of stuff. It's just like the surfing environment here just changes all the time. Interesting. Whereas, you know, in a place like Santa Cruz they have all these points and they have these reefs and stuff like that and consistent
Robin: Yeah.
James: setup. Whereas for us we kinda have to be like, Okay, here's good now, this is good now Just
Robin: Yeah.
James: kinda chasing things all over the coast.
Robin: So do you have like a community of surfers who are like constantly adding information so that people know what's going on? Or is it is it like a personal thing?
James: It's it's a mix. Okay. You know, because on the one hand, you wanna be in the loop so you kind of you share enough information so that other people keep you in the loop about where where where is good. Yeah. But also you don't want to like blow it up so that everybody shows up at that spot at that time. It's
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: a it's a fine balance of information sharing.
Robin: It's like you gotta you gotta donate, but you don't wanna donate all the good stuff.
James: Yes, yeah. And yeah, it's it it it's it feels bad when y your friends are scoring and and they didn't tell you and you're just like
Robin: Yeah, what did I what did I do wrong?
James: Crashing. But then also, you know, you've also been that person where you didn't say like, this spot's really good right now. so it's a it's a back and forth and a fine balance. But the the surf community here is is wonderful. It's very tight knit. Everybody knows each other and everybody's friendly and gets along for the most part and it's a good good community.
Robin: Yeah. So how did they react when they heard the news about the attack?
James: Yeah. So I have a funny story about that. Do you wanna hear the Yeah. Yeah. So after the attack everybody was at the beach pretty much.
Robin: Like present at the beginning.
James: Pretty much I would say like five or six like I would say the surf community is probably somewhere around like fifteen people. and I would say about half of them just happened to be at Big River that day. Wow. Not necessarily surfing with me, but they were on the beach. and then showed up afterwards also. and then the fish and games guy needed to collect my things. so he wanted my surfboard and stuff. I think that I guess at that time that was all he was gathering for DNA and testing and stuff like that. Okay.
Robin: Yeah.
James: and I I had already left in the ambulance, but my board was there and He I w I I don't even know who had it, but one of the boys had it and he went up to them and he's like, I I need to take the surfboard for testing and they were like, Well it's not even hit, like it didn't even get touched, you know, which was the remarkable thing. My surfboard didn't get touched. Yeah. and he's like, I know, I know, I know, but like I still need to take it and this other guy was like like I don't think you understand. Like this is James's favorite surfboard. Like if you take it and you ding it, he's gonna be pissed. And he's like, I know I get it. I promise I'll be very, very careful. And he's like, okay, I'll I'll give it to you. But you have to be careful. And he's like, okay. And and he's he takes in and what this other guy's like, like I don't think you understand, man. Like if you th if you look at that thing wrong, like you're gonna fuck it up. And then he's like I I get it, I get it, and I get it And he's like putting it in the tr the truck and they're like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. You can't just put it in the truck like that. Let me get you a bag. So one of the other guys like went and grabbed a board bag and like took his surfboard out and put it in his car and gave the fishing games guy a a bag to put my board in. He's like, Okay, can I take it now? And they're like, yeah, I guess so and then they're like, Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You don't need the fins. Like you don't need the fins on the board. Let us take the fins. And so they
Robin: The negotiation.
James: Yeah, they like unscrewed the fins and took the fins out and eventually like let the guy take the board but they just gave him such a hard time about it. Yeah.
Robin: That's brilliant.
James: which I appreciated. Yeah, I have it.
Robin: Do you have it back now? Back. Okay, good. Yeah.
James: So the board like like they said, there was nothing on the board. Uh-huh. but the the leash got hit. There was like a it looked like somebody just took a knife to the leash.
Robin: Just cut it. Yeah.
James: So they they kept the leash for and they They kept my wetsuit also for a while. But I have all of it back now. But
Robin: Okay.
James: yeah, so they took that for DNA testing.
Robin: Whoa, that's wild. Yeah.
James: But people were freak in the community like really freaked out afterwards. Yeah, I bet. we kind of thought of Mendocino as at least our part of the coast as pretty safe in comparison to other parts of Northern California 'cause there hadn't been attack here for so long. and there was kind of different at least w yeah, I I heard different theories about why we were safer than other places, but peep it definitely made people more aware and more concerned and Like we there's one local guy who's just like, I'm not surfing river mouths anymore and
Robin: Yeah. Yeah.
James: that sort of stuff. So but yeah, it it definitely sent ripples. People were painting like stripes and things on the bottom of their surfboard, which doesn't work but
Robin: Is that a thought that they can help?
James: There are there's various thoughts about like yeah, paint zebra stripes on the bottom of your board or have big eyeballs on the bottom of your board and I don't think those things actually do anything though.
Robin: Yeah. Interesting. I mean it's curious. So you were talking before we were we were going into the detail about like that day. Yeah if you're okay with like going through step by step. Okay, you were talking about the the wave structures and how it can change depending on how the river mouth is flowing. It was heading to the north side at that point, is that right? Yeah. Okay, so so that meant what was the kind of environment like where you were surfing?
James: Yeah, so I can do you want me to just tell you the kind of what happened that day? Please do. Yeah, okay. So I had an hour after school before I had to go pick up my kid from daycare. so I and I so I, you know, looked at the waves really click quick. It looked fun. I like rushed down, got my stuff on, ran out to the beach. and it was r it was fun. It was just kinda rights on the north side of the beach. and I had been surfing for about an hour. at the time there was only four other people out. Three of them were people I know, people I surf with all the time. two of them are off duty lifeguards. One was a former student of mine. Okay.
Robin: Okay.
James: And then one was this other guy that I didn't know at the time but would become important. Uhhuh. so I had to go. Like I I didn't have any more time. I really did not want to go 'cause the waves were getting better and better and better. It was actually really fun that day. And
Robin: So you're already running a bit late at that point.
James: I wasn't running late at that point, but if I had surfed any I if I had surfed any longer, I would have been late. So the other people I was kind of surfing with, they'd all caught a wave. and we kind of, you know, follow rotation when we're surfing and so it was my turn and I was kind of out by myself and I paddled north to get kind of deeper on the wave. Just kinda casually, just trying to put myself in a good position for the next wave. Uhhuh. And then And then I saw a wave coming and I was kind of too deep for it. So I I was paddling as hard as I could to the south, basically. And I think in hindsight, just knowing where the attack came from is I think I was paddling at the shark really calmly and then I think I bolted in the other direction. So I think it might have been like a prey response sort of thing.
Robin: Trigger.
James: Yeah. And so I'm paddling about as hard as I can south and getting into this wave so I have a bit of momentum going.
Robin: Yeah.
James: and all of a sudden I just feel this pressure on my feet. Like and at first I I I didn't understand what was happening as it was such an unusual, unexpected sensation. Yeah no
Robin: What you ever feel.
James: No, no, no, was just like it was almost like a bear trap, you know, it's just like this pressure on my leg.
Robin: But it wasn't like a sharp paint.
James: No, it was just like it was pressure. That was the main thing I felt. Then
Robin: Yeah.
James: of course I just like stopped in the water, you know. You I wasn't moving forwards anymore. Like I just came to a dead stop. And at that moment I reali I kind of realized what was happening, you know. I was like, this is it, this is this is a shark attack. The thing I've been worrying about for so long. and you know, I immediately it's amazing how time slows down at this sort of moment. like I just thought of my wife and kid and I was just like I I cannot die right now. Like this is a really bad time to die.
Robin: Emo emotionally, so you had that thought, Yeah, I know what's happening. Yeah, this is what I imagined could happen. Yeah. I kind of felt it was gonna happen. Yeah. Like as a premonition. Was it like a calm realization or were you feeling a lot of fear at that point?
James: point you don't have any time to be scared.
Robin: Yeah.
James: it's surprisingly not that scary in the
Robin: So you weren't like overwhelmed.
James: No. I was kinda I was very clear about what I needed to do.
Robin: Yeah.
James: so I'm, you know, lying on my surfboard
Robin: And I can find it
James: face down and I can feel this pressure on my f my legs and I know it's happening. Apparently at this point, which I don't remember, is I'm y yelling like fuck, fuck, fuck. Interesting. And I have no memory of that. Yeah. but I believe it. And then I turned around and the the shark was out of the water, like directly behind me, with my legs in its mouth.
Robin: Like its face fully up.
James: face fully out of the water, like I can see its whole head.
Robin: How big is its head? From what you're gesturing, seems big.
James: It was big. I talked talking to the shark researcher guy, he was like he asked me what I told him the story. He's he's like, Well could you see the eyes? And I said, No, I couldn't see the eyes. He's like, Well that means it was like a fairly large shark because if it was a smaller shark you would have been able to see the eyes on the side of the head.
Robin: The forwards.
James: Right. But if it's a a larger shark, the head is so wide and they're more to the side and you can't see the eyes. Wow. but I could see Like the visual of it was just I was surprised by how black it was. Like It was dark. It was really dark on top and then white on the bottom, you know. And how Yeah, like this probably.
Robin: Wide like so you're doing hand gesture like two and a half three feet like pretty much.
James: I don't know. Yeah, two two to three feet probably.
Robin: Wow.
James: and you can see the teeth and stuff and and I just you know, I knew in the back of my mind like I need to fight this thing.
Robin: Yeah.
James: Like so I ch turned around and it was really awkward 'cause I'm lying on my surfboard, kinda trying to hold my surfboard with one hand and like trying to fight this thing behind me with my other hand. I'm trying to like push its nose 'cause I you know, in the back of my mind I remember that that's a thing to Yeah,
Robin: Like punch its nose if you
James: and push it and try to get my legs free and that sort of stuff and But it was it was clamped. Yeah, I yeah.
Robin: Was it like biting was it biting or was it like just solid
James: It's just kinda like on it. Yeah. and I think later I talked to the shark researcher and he was like, they don't like legs because a leg immediately gives them the wrong sensation. Right? It's like when they're attacking a seal or whatever, they they go for the the stomach and the stomach on a seal is like fleshy and soft and but
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: a leg immediately gives them like hard bone. Mm-hmm. And they kind of immediately know, like, this isn't it. Yeah.
Robin: Yeah.
James: But it was still kind of on there and I was fighting it and my student, my former student that was out there, he saw the whole thing go down and he was like, it just looked like you wanted to fucking kill that thing. Like hi which it felt good 'cause in my mind I was like, I hope I'm not making this up to like make myself feel good that I've fought this shark, you know?
Robin: Yeah.
James: But he was like, No man, it looked like you were pissed and you just wanted to get out of there and kill that.
Robin: Given it yeah. Given it everything you have.
James: Yeah. And it let go. It like I I just you know, I got that like O free sensation. Like it let go. And how
Robin: Wha how long do you think that you were punching it fighting it for?
James: I think I t I it's hard to piece it all together because time slows down so much. But I
Robin: Yeah.
James: think from beginning to end I think this the attack was like five seconds. Wow.
Robin: How long did it feel like?
James: It felt I don't even know. It's like you enter another dimension. Yeah. It's like a a different time dimension and the amount of thoughts that you have I don't it it it's like outside of time. It's a very weird. I I can't even say. but yeah, so I got free and a a wave came immediately and I like, my god, thank God, you know, there's a wave coming. And I could kind of see the other people that I was surfing with, out there looking at me, kind of looking to see if I was gonna catch the wave and I realized that I was in a really bad position to to catch the wave. But I was just like, I have to catch it, like I don't have a choice. I was just like too deep. I was really late.
Robin: So you weren't in like a good stable position or
James: I wasn't it's like the wave was basically gonna break on me.
Robin: Like
James: so it
Robin: You're not exactly gonna be like, nah, I'm gonna wait for
James: was not like a ca no, no, no. And it wasn't gonna be a casual, easy drop in. It was I like in the moment I was like, there's a really good chance this is just gonna wipe me out. But I don't I feel like I have a choice. so I went for it and I caught the wave and somehow made it the drop and kinda as I'm going down I saw the shark again for like a a second.
Robin: In the way.
James: In like in the trough of the wave. Whoa. And I think there are things it's funny 'cause I remember a lot extremely clearly, but then there are other things that happen that the people out there said happen that I don't have any memory of. And some people out there said that it jumped at some point and like pushed me underwater. And I have no memory of that. But what I think happened and the shark researcher kind of corroborated this is that when it's when I was on the wave going at it after the attack is it probably like freaked out because they do not want to be attacked either.
Robin: Yeah.
James: and so I'm thinking that maybe it kinda like went through the wave and and jumped or splashed or did something dramatic. Yeah,
Robin: Try to get away.
James: to try to get away.
Robin: But it supposedly someone said it landed like on you after the attack.
James: Someone said it l like landed on me and pushed me underwater. Two people said that actually. Whoa. And I I I just don't I like I don't wanna say they're wrong, but I have either either they're wrong or I have zero memory of that.
Robin: Coincidentally did those two people talk to each other? Yeah.
James: Yeah, they're I mean they're good friends, so
Robin: So they would have shared that story with each other. Yeah. I mean y memory's weird, right?
James: Memory's weird and I I I do believe that I yelled like fuck fuck fuck. and I don't have any memory of that. Ironically, like while the attack was happening, I do remember yelling shark, shark, shark, which is like the most like obvious thing ever. But yeah, there's a shark right there.
Robin: Well there's worse things to shout. Yeah.
James: And then yeah, so I I rode that wave in on my belly and just tried to get to the sandbar as best as I could. Did to get as shallow as I could. and I made it into kind of like knee deep water. So
Robin: There's just like a spot a spot where the sand is collected and it's shallower, but it's not actually at the beach yet.
James: Yeah. 'Cause the river separates the beach from the sandbar. and yeah, so I got into knee deep water and at that point I I didn't even know if I had legs still. So I was like No, no, I hadn't looked.
Robin: hadn't looked. D was that a thought that you had? Like should I look?
James: No, my thought was just like, Well, I'm gonna try to stand now. I hope I have legs to stand on. so fortunately I was able to stand and walk and get onto the sandbar by myself and at that point everybody else out there, they all kinda caught that same wave that I caught. So they all kinda came in with me and they started helping me at that point. And yeah, and then I still had to cross the river. so somebody lent me their surfboard and they kinda I laid on it and they kind of pulled me across the river basically.
Robin: Yeah.
James: And then I got to the beach, and then so the other guy that was out there, he he was like, I'm a surgeon. I'm probably gonna be working on you later. let me take a look at your wounds. And in my head I was thinking like, Yeah, right, crazy guy, like you're not a surgeon. Like you just wanna feel important right now.
Robin: What did so what did you say to it?
James: I was just like, Okay, whatever. I mean, two of the other people I was surfing with were lifeguards too, so I was I felt like I was in relatively good hands, you know? And but he took a look at my wounds and he like, you know, I think I think you're gonna be okay. I'm gonna run ahead and I'll meet you at the ER. and yeah, he he actually ended up being my surgeon and he and another guy and then he also did my tendon repair, which we can talk about later. Yeah. so he ended up being a really important person for me, but in the moment I didn't know him. it was just like crazy coincidence. Ha. And yeah, so and then I was on the beach and you know, it was pretty clear that I didn't have any artery damage or anything like that. Like it was pretty clear I was gonna survive.
Robin: You weren't like shooting blood.
James: I wasn't shooting blood. No. Like there was plenty of blood
Robin: Yeah.
James: but I wasn't bleeding out and that was pretty obvious right away.
Robin: What do you do remember what your friends were saying to you when you got to the beach? Like can you remember anything that people were saying or interactions? Was there like humor in dire circumstances or was it like all super serious?
James: Yeah, so I'll t this is I won't name names but I'm
Robin: You can name names if you would.
James: not naming names. but this one guy on the beach who he's not he's a s he's a a person in the community that I'm not I don't really know but you know, I I know of him and I guess we're sort of acquaintances. And he was just on the beach and He had a little joint in his hand and he walks up to me super casually as like I'm on the beach with blood and stuff and he offers me the joint and he just goes, Medicinal marijuana
Robin: What did your surgeon recommend?
James: At that point. The the surgeon was I think gone at that point. But I was I I was just like, No man, I c I cannot that would freak me out right now.
Robin: Yeah, I can imagine.
James: So that was pretty funny. And then my former student, you know, I was supposed to be picking up my kid at this point, so
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: and my wife was working and so and she was working at the ER and I was like headed toward her sort of in a weird way. But I had my friend Abel, my former student, he I had him go call her. So he had to like run to my car and call her and I felt really bad for him later where 'cause he had to be like, Hi Chloe, this is Abel. you know, this isn't James, but James is okay, I promised, but he just got attacked by a shark. And she just apparently like crumpled in the in the ER.
Robin: She knew that you were heading over to her soon.
James: Yeah, yeah. And then I was able to call her. Another friend of mine, Holly, was on the beach and she came and like gave me some comfort, which was actually really appreciated in the moment and l let me use her phone to call Chloe. So I was able to call her pretty quickly afterwards and kinda let her know that I was okay. And then my friends that were the lifeguards, they started, you know, addressing my wounds and and then all of the different first responders showed up. Yeah. you know, as Mendocino Volunteer Fire Department and you know, state parks and all the people and then eventually the ambulance and stuff. And
Robin: So how long you say eventually? How long do you think you were at the beach?
James: I think on the beach I was probably on the beach for like fifteen or twenty minutes.
Robin: Yeah, 'cause I mean it's your ne the nearest hospital is a twenty minute drive away, right? Yeah.
James: But I would say that they in wave like they came in waves and the first wave of first responders was probably there within five to ten minutes. Well, okay. It was really quick. and they were giving me you know, they had I was cold, like that was the main thing, which I actually think helped maybe with the bleeding, but the water was freezing that day. And so I was cold and they were like taking off my wetsuits, so they gave me like those thermal blankets and little
Robin: Silver ones.
James: silver ones and they were, you know packing my wounds and all that sort of stuff and and then yeah they put me on this little like it was kinda like a four b four wheel golf cart basically. It was kind of cool. And it was like the strangest parade I've ever been a part of, you know, 'cause at that point, like I know I'm gonna survive. You know, I've just gone through this crazy experience. Like I am just like hyped out of my mind. Like
Robin: Adrenaline.
James: adrenaline like a full like drug experience basically just from the adrenaline and like the relief and you are
Robin: Happy at that point.
James: so happy. Yeah. And yeah, so I'm in this thing, this little cart going down the beach, and it's just like everybody I know. It's like, there's Greg. Like all yeah. I'm waving
Robin: The Queen.
James: Yeah. I'm waving like the queen basically and you know there's a group of my students and I like throw my students a shaka and I'm like Yeah and Yeah, and then there's you know, keep going and then there's like Geordie and Fossey and like all these people that I know. It's just like the strangest sort of thing. And then, you know, I get to the the the ambulance and that's more people I know. It's like there's Seneca, there's Tyler, that's like I
Robin: Sounds like a dream sequence from a movie.
James: was so weird. And at that point, like I said, I was in such high spirits 'cause I but I had survived and t the adrenaline was crazy and yeah, and then they they got me in the ambulance and that was my only ambulance ride ever and yeah. and there they addressed you know, took a closer look at my wounds and stuff. They had initially called a helicopter in case I had
Robin: It was more surgeon more urgent. Yeah.
James: And so, after the ambulance ride they we don't need the the helicopter, he's gonna be fine.
Robin: Did they tourniquet you at all? Or was it it was okay 'cause you weren't arterial.
James: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Robin: Man.
James: Yeah, and then I got to the hospital and my my wife was there, you know, working and so that was a nice relief also.
Robin: Was she allowed to work on you?
James: on me but you know, she made sure I was taken care of and stuff like that. But really I wasn't from the time of the attack until my first surgery was two hours. So everything happened extremely quickly. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, so within two hours I was, you know, completely knocked out and you know, getting stitched up and actually the more important thing was just getting cleaned out 'cause that's the The bigger danger is infection at that point.
Robin: I guess a shark's mouth isn't very clean.
James: It's yeah, it's really bad. I was on like every single antibiotic for like I I I was on like I think literally seven
Robin: Really? Yeah. For how long?
James: For about I think that it took like two weeks until I was like completely off the antibiotics.
Robin: Curious.
James: Yeah.
Robin: Side question. Yeah. Antibiotics can really like wipe out your gut biome. Yeah. Did you notice any changes kind of how you like interacted with food once you ate it afterwards? Not really. It was fine.
James: Yeah, I seem to have a pretty resilient stomach.
Robin: Yeah. Yeah. Or you just never had any gut biome in the first place.
James: Yeah, exactly, maybe. Yeah. Yeah,
Robin: yeah.
James: so yeah, and it was like I said, it was that guy that was at surfing with me that was one of my surgeons and Yeah. yeah, it was crazy.
Robin: Can you remember what your wife said to you when she first saw you?
James: I don't I don't remember what she said. but it was just like relief, you know. Like you know, gave her a kiss and you know, it's all gonna be okay and that's her stuff. And then You know, sh my mom actually had was had left that day from visiting us and she was on a plane. She like I got attacked basically when she was getting on like taking off. Okay. So she didn't know about it for a little while, but my she had my dad on the phone and my dad knows that I'm paranoid about shark attacks. So over my whole life he always teased me about like getting attacked by a shark, you know. And so the first thing I said when my dad was on the phone, he was like I was like, I just want you to know this is all your fault. Like all those jokes about getting attacked by a shark all these years and he was just like, You have no idea how guilty I feel So
Robin: Pretty. Yeah. You might as well milk it. Yeah.
James: exactly. Yeah.
Robin: so I'm gonna look at my notes a second 'cause I wrote like a bunch of things. I you I think you've c covered everything. But I just wanna make sure for a second. I think you've kind of answered this, but one thing I was wondering is w have you thought about or considered or maybe now is the time to think about it, what do you think would have happened if the luck of a surgeon being there or your lifeguard friends being there, do you think it would have been any different? I mean you s you were able to stand. So Yeah.
James: So yeah, I mean I think I would have been fine. I I This is adjacent I'm gonna this is a adjacent to your question. Okay. So after you get attacked by a shark, you know, people wanna mythologize it a little bit, you know? They like I cannot tell you how many times after the attack I've heard like, the man, the myth, the legend, blah blah blah blah blah. you know, my last name is Eastman and for my whole life and I do this, like just add a B to it and it becomes Beastman, you know? And I love that. But when you get attacked by a shark, people mythologize it and they they they want you to be this sort of like legend or whatever. And it it's really uncomfortable for me. 'Cause in answer to your question, like I think I would have been totally fine. Like even if I didn't fight it, I think I would have survived. Like I think I think there's a totally alternate universe where The shark attacks me. I do nothing. Uh-huh. It realizes like this is bone a bony leg. huh. This is not what I want. It spits me out. I don't even have to worry about catching that next wave. I could just like casually paddle in and it would just disappear. You know? I think That's a totally realistic version of the events. You know, the only thing that could have changed it is if it got an artery. Right? Like that's that's the only thing that matters, I think. Is did it get an artery or not? And if it doesn't get an artery, then you're probably gonna be fine 'cause it's gonna realize you're not like a delicious, tasty, fatty seal and spit you out and then it's not gonna come back for a second attack because It already knows what you are and you're fine. Yeah. And I think that's I don't I don't think that's true necessarily for all types of sharks, but I think that's true about gre great whites. Based on everything I've learned kind of since then.
Robin: Yeah. I'd love to talk to you about what you've learned 'cause it sounds like from some friends that I've spoken to that you've kind of gone into a bit of a deep dive, no pun intended, I guess. Of like understanding more about this whole area now. Yeah. But first do you mind if I run to the bathroom? 'Cause I've got like a pea bladder today. I don't know what's going on. Sorry to interrupt the flow, man. No, it's okay.
James: Again, your glass is about to fall over here.
Robin: We're going to interrupt this conversation for just one second so that I can politely remind you this is the perfect moment to make sure that you are following, subscribed, and doing all those things that people who enjoy podcasts do. It's really important. It means that it's going to get in your stream. So the next time you think, I could do with listening to a podcast right now, we're going to pop up with an another and another with another amazing. Person who's got fantastic stories just like James. Here's his story now. The deep dive that you you've now gone into. I think we're good.
James: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Robin: Excuse me. I mean I I can't imagine because I've not been in a situation even similar to this. But you said like the elation and the relief. Was part of that about your paranoia and the kind of premonition premonition that you knew you were gonna get hit by a shark? And so now you know that it happened and you're gonna be okay? Or was it just because it happened in that moment and you're like, Wow, this could've been a lot worse?
James: Yeah, I think I have a lot to say about that. you know, I haven't surfed yet, and that's not because I I don't want to. It's just because up until very recently I haven't been physically capable. Uh-huh. But there is an element of it where I feel like when I go surfing, I'm ho like I know I'm gonna have some sort of weird PTSD reactions to certain situations and stuff like that. But there is another element to it where it's like Now I know what a shark attack is. Like I part of the fear of the shark attack is the unknowing part of it, right? Like just something can come out of the deep and get you and what's that gonna be like? Mm-hmm. But now I know what it's like, you know, which is sort of a weird thing to say. Yeah. But like I know what it's like to have something come out of nowhere and grab you f from below and kinda have this violent experience or whatever. And it's not as scary as it is in your mind or how you imagine it to be, right? Like it in the moment you're just at least for me, like very logical, just like, okay, this is happening and this is what I need to do to get out of the situation and yeah you know, obviously my shark attack could have been a lot worse, in so many ways. Like I could've lost a limb or I could have it could have gotten artery or whatever. so I got extremely lucky in in that way. But as far as the general experience, like I kinda know what it is now.
Robin: It's like a horror movie, right? Like the scariest part of the horror movie is when you don't really know what the thing is. Exactly.
James: Exactly. Yeah. but then the elation and stuff, the other the mixed the emotional aspect of it, it's just so many different things. Like on on the one hand, it's just you know, like my friend Maurizio, who was who was out there and helped me, he you know, he was holding my chest at when he was we're c he was kind of escorting me across the river and stuff, and he was just like, Your heart was just like Boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom boom. You know. Yeah. It's just your body is in such a heightened state. so there's that kind of adrenaline aspect to it. there's the like I survived, like I'm gonna live reality, which is you know, kind of euphoric in a way. but then there's all these other things that are sort of strange to talk about, you know? Like it's It's probably the most spiritual experience I've ever had. Which is like an odd thing to say. You know, I think part of it is the fact that it kinda seems to happen outside of time. But then you also feel this like closeness to death, you know, like death is just like right there. Like you can like almost like reach out and touch it, you know? And to kinda like have that sort of encounter with with death or like the possibility of death and then to come back from it, like you you're just like it's kind of mind blowing and you're I don't know.
Robin: Is it like that you're more acquainted? Yeah. So it's like more comfortable. Yeah, exactly.
James: Exactly. It's like n I I feel like I have a better s understanding of like what death is now. Mm. And it it's not it is sort of weirdly comforting. It's not like obviously I don't want to die. You know, but like But we
Robin: But we all do.
James: all do and it and you know, it was just kinda like right it right there, you know, and it it's not as terrifying as I thought it was gonna be. Yeah. So you kinda it's almost like you cross a threshold or something, especially once you know you're okay again. It's like, okay, I've I've come back to this the real world or the not the real world but the normal world and I had this encounter with this other thing and and I'm okay and I'm gonna survive and like I'm gonna go see my wife and my kid and like look at all these people I love, you know, it's they were all there. Then they're all right there in the procession. And yeah, it's just it's just a very intense, complicated emotional experience. and then there's there's a whole emotional tale that is like a another thing, you know, but in the immediate aftermath of it it's it is sort of like weirdly euphoric.
Robin: Did that that experience then and the euphoria that happened I'm assuming speculation on my part, but it suddenly you have more gratitude for everything that you already have because you it could have got taken away so easily. Did
James: For sure.
Robin: that continue for a while? Did you feel that? Did it did it or was it just like you're kind of suddenly there were some other realities like medical treatment and pain and all those things to deal with that kind of pulled you away from that?
James: yeah.
Robin: Builds, I can imagine.
James: Yeah, it's You immediately get sucked back into reality. Uhhuh. I think especially with a shark attack because For and I I understand why, like for so many people a shark attack is just like a nightmare experience. Mm-hmm. And it produces this emotional response in people and then people want your attention and they like want things from you. and a lot of it is like beautiful, you know, but like the the two or three days after the attack in the hospital, like I counted like over a hundred individuals reached out to me. and so you kinda go from this intense emotional experience and then all of a sudden like you're just enmeshed with people again. Right? Like I I think like the second day in the hospital, like I was literally on my phone, like the entire day just like responding to people or talking to people or so you kinda you just get sucked back into reality and then Yeah. Like you don't really it's kind of a regret I have, like I just should have turned off my phone, you know? But you don't get the opportunity to just kinda dwell in it as much as maybe would have been ideal. and then you know it it is It's weird 'cause it seems to happen to everybody that goes through this sort of thing, is like you do kind of have like a PTSD response and it doesn't necessarily settle in immediately, you know, but for whatever reason, and I don't really know why, like it does set off this kind of like chain reaction of emotional responses, which are not all positive. Well it's it's like an evolving thing. It's Yeah, like and it and it comes and goes, but yeah, the emotional side of it is has been difficult, I would say. I think my my wife can attest. is well first of all there's the dr the the nightmares, you know?
Robin: So that's that's coming, you're getting nightmares. Yeah.
James: fortunately for me I don't seem to have as many as other people do. but yeah, starting about like a week or so after the attack, I had all and a lot of them were more metaphorical than specific to a shark. It was just like like I'm in my house and there are people outside of my house and I'm like frantically trying to like patch every little gap in the wall or like close the windows and like lock every door. And that sort of stuff. But and and then some of are really specific, you know, like I had a dream the other night where I was fishing in this like muddy river and I caught a fish and it was like, I was like, this is a big fish and I reel it in and I get it right next to the beach. I'm like, Holy shit, this is like a massive shark. And I'm like, how do I get the hook out of the shark's mouth? And I'm trying to do that and like as I get the hook out, this kid sees the shark and freaks out and then jumps into the river and then the shark is just like trailing the kid and I just like woke up like heart pounding, just freaking out, you know. And so there's like those sorts of things and the one that I've really And I haven't talked to anyone. I one Shark Attack survivor reached out to me and has helped me a little bit, but other than that I like haven't talked to anybody. But like I'm so much more angry now than I used to be, which I don't really get why.
Robin: Just like a shorter fuse.
James: Shorter fuse, like way shorter fuse. Yeah. And
Robin: Yeah. What did the Shark Attack guy who approached you did you talk to him about that?
James: I haven't talked to him about that specifically. I talked to him I need to talk to him again, but yeah. He reached out kind of in the immediate aftermath and we he just kinda told me like he basically was like, It's gonna be hard. He's like he's like d don't don't worry. Don't feel like you're failing in some way or whatever. He's just like, You're gonna have You're probably gonna have PTSD from this and like it's gonna be difficult. so yeah, it's weird 'cause on the one hand you do feel very grateful for things. Yes. And then on the other hand, there's this like whole emotional tale that kind of is continually unwinding and is sort of hard to make sense of. Mm-hmm. It's just like why can't I hold on to these positive aspects that I felt and that I like I know are true when like why do these n these negative things why are these negative things so inherent to the process? Yeah. and why like it just doesn't really make sense to me that they should be, right? Like I just wonder is it that so many people say that you have PTSD after, so then that becomes sort of Yeah,
Robin: Yeah.
James: solidifies it. Or is it just a natural reaction to something like this and why? You know, it's just it's it's really strange.
Robin: I wonder if 'cause we were gonna talk about some of your research after this. Yeah. if any of that's involved like the psychological side of things. Have you have you spoken to any therapists?
James: No I have it.
Robin: Okay. So I mean it might be worth Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
James: No, I know I should. I just like I'm r I'm really
Robin: Another step, right? That you're already doing a lot of stuff. Yeah.
James: And I'm just like I'm just resistant to that sort of stuff in general. Like I've never talked to a therapist in my whole life, you know, it's just like not my style. and But yeah, I probably should.
Robin: I mean everyone's different, right? I've spoken to a few in my in my years and they've really helped me. Yeah. it it it's almost like the barrier, the idea of the thing, is harder than the reality.
James: What do you mean by that?
Robin: Like you said, th you've kinda like it's not your thing, therapy is not your thing, or like the idea of doing it. The act of actually having a session with someone is a big step, weirdly. Like I've been in some really dark times and I've had arguments with my wife where she's like, I think you need to talk to someone. Yeah. Even when I've had therapists in the past. Yeah. And we're just going on a rabbit hole now. Yeah. No
James: no no.
Robin: Yeah. But but the that that step is kinda harder than
James: Right.
Robin: once that once that bridge is open, then that's actually much easier than if you're having if you're having some difficulty to then know it really knowing that it's there is helpful as well because it's like if I get to a point where I like need to talk to someone and you know, you've got your like bless my wife, she's put up with a lot in the past. I've had some less than of my my finest moments, should we say. Yeah. I'm very glad that she's stayed with me. Yeah. but I think she said it herself, like she's not a professional. Right. She doesn't know exactly how to interpret or help all the time. But then it's like that if they're your person, right. Right, you it's easy to lean on them a lot, right? Yeah.
James: No, I'm I think there's definitely truth to right, like making that first step is probably hard. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I guess
Robin: this is not me pressing.
James: no I get that. I guess the other part of it for me is like I'm really I get really worried about how stories become part of your identity. Mm-hmm. You know? And I really don't want this to become like part of my s story, if that makes any sense.
Robin: You mean part of your story in the terms of like your your identity? Yeah, my You're not like, James, you're the sharp guy. Yeah
James: I my identity. 'Cause I think like I mean
Robin: You don't wanna from an external way or you mean like from an internal way? Both. Okay. Both.
James: and in a lot of ways I don't have control over that, you know? Like I am the shark guy now, which which kind of drives me crazy. but I also don't want that to like have you know, take up too much space as far as how I think of myself. so that's yeah, I don't know, that's part of my worry. But it's a f
Robin: Fair worry. Yeah. How do you so okay. How do you think of yourself without the shark?
James: without the shark, how do I think of myself? That's such a complicated question.
Robin: No, I know. But you set me you set me up to ask.
James: I I think of myself as like Hmm like temperamentally like pretty mellow you know a mellow I I'll so much my identity is built around the things I do, you know? So a mellow, kind of dedicated teacher who has kind of like a an attraction who it has kind of like a a restless underlayer that like needs to get out into nature and like do do stuff. Do stuff. You know? Yeah. whether that's surfing or backpacking or fishing or whatever, like there's like there's like the teacher me, the like kind of studious bookish art artistically driven sort of side of myself. And then there's like this restless kind of underlayer where I just like, I can't be in the house all day, I gotta get out of here. You know? Come by.
Robin: There's just some days where you're like, I just can't be here right now. Yeah. Gotta go do an adventure of some kind. Yeah.
James: I got the itch.
Robin: Yeah. Well, I mean I can completely understand where that fear would come from. Of course. You know, it's it's been a big moment in your life right now. Mm-hmm. But in the scale of things, it's a small moment, I guess, overall. Yeah.
James: And it's just like some random thing that happened to me. Mm-hmm. You know? It's just and I was lucky. It's a r it's a r an extremely unlucky thing that happened that's random in which I was extremely lucky, you know. And I I don't know. Other things that would fit that category, they wouldn't become such big parts of one's identity because people wouldn't care so much about it. Right, but because it's a shark attack, like people really care about it. And and so it takes on a a much bigger role than maybe I would have liked.
Robin: I think we have jaws to thank for that maybe
James: Proud, yeah.
Robin: But it's true, it's so true what you're saying. Like people narrowly escape car accidents exactly every day. Yeah. Every day. Every day. It's this ter this incredibly dangerous thing that we face every day. And I
James: No.
Robin: drove over here and risking my life to come here. Right. But you don't think about it at all. And people have near misses moments, sometimes quite bad crashes or just dings. Mm-hmm. But we don't give them the weight that they probably deserve
James: They're not gonna receive a hundred calls from a hundred, you know, individuals, you know. That's just not
Robin: A reaction if I get one call.
James: Right. Exactly. You get lucky if your wife calls Right.
Robin: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
James: It's yeah, and and I get it 'cause you know, if it wasn't me that got attacked, I would be extremely curious and have a million questions and yeah. So I I understand where it comes from, but it's it's it's an interesting thing to be on this side of, you know.
Robin: Yes. Did the guy who reached out to you who had who had been hit by a shark before? Did he explain that it's a thing that there's a community of people? 'Cause I remember hearing at some point that there is like this community. It's kind of like considered a thing where people reach out. You will get reached out to if you get if you get attacked by a shark.
James: And there's also, it's funny I ha I haven't joined it, but my wife has. There's this thing on Facebook called the Bite Club.
Robin: Okay, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
James: And yeah, a and it's kinda it kinda has rigorous standards in order to to enter into it, you know. It's
Robin: Really? Yeah.
James: there's like a selection process and and everything. they take it very seriously. But it's it's also I haven't participated in it firsthand just through my wife. But it is a very supportive community and you know, people are very honest on it and You know, 'cause I think there there is an element where it's like if you go through something like that, the people that understand it best are people that have also gone through it. So and it is weird in the way that it seems to produce like the same sorts of reactions, right? Like it's
Robin: Yes.
James: you know, we all think we're so different, you know, but I I just things like this show me that we're really just the same, you know, 'cause they go through the same sorts of emotions and the same sorts of processes and Yeah. You know, it just sets off a chain reaction and and the chain is pretty similar for a lot of people. It's Yeah.
Robin: It's like programming. Weird. Yeah. It's curious 'cause it I mean I guess like identity, at least for me and I I get the feeling you as well. It's important to have that. Yeah. That thing like the thing that makes you you. Yeah. don't tell me that I'm gonna react the same as everyone.
James: And that's that's actually been a frustrating thing for me, is like I wanna defy the chain reaction, you know, but it so far I haven't really been able to. I'm gonna keep trying, yeah.
Robin: You're gonna keep trying. Okay. So we were gonna talk about something
James: that w what I've learned about the sharks? Yeah.
Robin: Yeah. Yeah.
James: Yeah, it's really interesting. so I talked to this guy, Dr. Chris Lowe, who's at Cal State Long Beach. He's kind of the California's biggest shark dude, you know? Okay. and he was great. We talked for probably an hour and a half or so. and he just kind of broke everything down for me. so Yeah, I mean where to start. I'm I mean I learned things as random as like shark attacks tend to happen from the direction of the sun, right? Like they like line up with the like they
Robin: So you have the sun in your eyes.
James: So that actually didn't happen for me. Okay. mine actually came from so on the day of my attack the sun would have been southwest.
Robin: Yeah.
James: And my attack came from the north, I think. The northwest.
Robin: So the northwest, yeah.
James: but it was a foggy day. The sun wasn't out that day.
Robin: So it's less of a less of an element. Yeah.
James: So that was one just like a one tiny little interesting thing I learned. another thing is like there are kind of two types of shark attacks, basically. Mm-hmm. there's like the f the f at least with Great Whites, the fully committed attack, where, you know, the shark comes from deep and builds a lot of speed and just like hits the thing as hard as it possibly can and the ideally in the torso and you know, will launch out of the water 'cause it has so much speed.
Robin: The target flies out of the water. okay, just like
James: The target and the shark will f you know come out. Yeah. Like that's that's the fully committed hunting attack. Uh-huh. but then there's kind of the investigatory attack. and I guess the way this normally happens is, you know, somebody will be on a surfboard or whatever with their limbs dangling into the ocean and the shark will kind of come up and just take a bite, you know. See what it is, you know. interestingly mine was kinda like neither of those. and I was talking to him about that and he was kind of s saying, you know, there might have been other elements going on that prevented it from making a full attack. First of all, like I was going pretty fast when it happened because I was paddling quickly. I was in the wave, like I had wave momentum as well. Yeah. But I was also in really shallow water, right? So it couldn't speed it couldn't really build up speed in the same way.
Robin: Gonna ask about how deep the water was.
James: Well, I think, you know, 'cause when the when I was surfing there was a ton of sand on the north side of the beach. maybe the most sand I've ever seen. and I think my guess is that like where the actual attack happened is that it was very shallow, probably less than five feet of water. Wow. but it probably initiated the attack in slightly deeper water, but then was like very quickly in shallow water. 'Cause I think it was just like a steep sandbar
Robin: Yeah.
James: drop off.
Robin: Interesting. So it
James: Like
Robin: can't keep going in a way. If it kept if it kept going full speed it could put itself into shallow water.
James: Well yeah, I think it would have like the direction of the attack was kind of like on the outer edge of the sandbar that was out there. but yes, it was the actual attack was in relatively shallow water. And I think the reason I saw it again is because at that point it was in like extremely shallow water. Like it didn't have room really to dive deep. because the sandbar there was very shallow, probably like, you know, less than chest deep.
Robin: Yeah. but it's like four foot or something. Yeah.
James: yeah. So it was my attack was kinda like somewhere in between a fully committed one and an investigatory one. but the one that got hit in Walla, that was like a fully committed attack.
Robin: Well,
James: yeah, and you know, like I said earlier, I in some ways was lucky that it bit my legs. he said they really don't like legs, because they're it's just like immediate bone sensation on their teeth and they just know that's not what they want. and that it was probably a good thing for me. they like to hit like the the torso. and that's why you know like surfers have a much better survival rate than swimmers. probably For that reason, for one, like their torso is protected to some extent by the board. But the board
Robin: gets bitten quite often, right? Like
James: will get the board will get hit a lot. But yeah. And kind of relatedly, I thought was interesting. I guess in California we have a much higher s survival rate than in like South Africa or Western Australia. and part of that is the infrastructure that we have here. You know, like cellphone towers and close h hospitals and that sort of stuff. But
Robin: Lots of helicopters around and
James: Well, that was the other thing he was saying, which I thought was really interesting. He's like, it's just kinda weird how whenever there's a shark attack in California, there's always somebody with like first responder training of some kind, whether it's like an off duty lifeguard or a fireman or you know, in my case I had three. I had two off duty lifeguards and a surgeon, you know?
Robin: Yeah.
James: for whatever reason we just have a he he said it's just always how it goes in California. There's always somebody there that knows what they're doing.
Robin: It's interesting, like not even just like shark attacks, like a accidents in general. There's c so often there's like and then just so happened someone who was off duty doctor was there or you know, like it's it's curious how that happens so often, isn't it? In the kind of survival stories that you hear.
James: Yeah. Yeah. another interesting thing I learned which is kind of I don't want to say frustrating, but kind of funny to think about is apparently sharks are primarily here from like October to April. Yeah.
Robin: Through the winter.
James: Okay. Which I kinda knew. but apparently in April Like they they book it out to this place. I think they call it like the Shark Cafe. and it's in the middle of nowhere. It's between here and Hawaii. middle of the ocean, like blue desert. They don't really know why they go there, but they assume it has something to do with mating. but yeah, so apparently starting in April they just kinda go out into the middle of the ocean. Obviously not every single one of goes, but like a lot of go. which was kind of, you know, ironic for me 'cause I got attacked on March eighteenth, you know. So it's like if it had been just like a week and a half later, would they have been around? I don't know. But apparent I don't know if you heard, but apparently a local person I know, and I haven't talked to them directly, I just heard second hand, watched seal or a sea lion get attacked in that same spot like a week or two ago at Big River. So they're obviously not completely gone.
Robin: Wow, so another attack happened right there.
James: Yeah. On that north side of Big River. Yeah.
Robin: So I guess there aren't that many people surfing there right now. Are there?
James: Well, people are still surfing. Yeah. I don't think so. There
Robin: Are the signs still up? Because there were signs.
James: were signs, yeah. Yeah.
Robin: B
James: so I don't know. That's just some of the stuff I learned.
Robin: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We talked about like emotional recovery. Mm-hmm. Tell me a bit about the physical recovery that you've had to do. Derek, our mutual friend, told me that you had to have a second surgery.
James: Yeah. So initially I just had like a bunch of cuts and punctures and stuff on my legs. It's really n like surprisingly not that bad, you know? yeah, I've healed up pretty fast. So how
Robin: I it look you've healed up really far. What was it like three three months ago?
James: Yeah, it was three months ago. It was March eighteenth. Yeah,
Robin: Okay, so it's slightly more than three months.
James: I guess it's closer to four months now. Three
Robin: Three and a half months.
James: and a half months, yeah. Yeah, and so they just like I said before, they put me under and I think I was in surgery for like two hours. and they just cleaned me out really, really good. and sewed me up. There was kind of, you know, subdermal stitches and then stitches on on the top. Okay. yeah.
Robin: So they're stitching like your muscles together.
James: Stitching underneath and stuff. Yeah. Mm-hmm. and they didn't notice it at the time, but the perineal tendons on my right ankle were just sliced. Like someone took a knife to them basically. it's like
Robin: So talk me through where that is.
James: it's like Kind of like the back side of the ball of your ankle. Yeah.
Robin: The outside. The outside back. Yeah. And then that runs down.
James: Yeah. And I think it comes d down like kind of around the ankle ball. I'm not exactly sure. but they didn't notice that at first. and honestly after the attack I was doing really well physically. Like if you saw me walking down the street, you might not think anything. Like I kind of had a gangster ling lean going on for a little while, but you know, after the initial recovery period, maybe like two weeks I could walk and then kinda by three wake three weeks I could walk pretty well and by the time I was about to have the surgery like I could walk well. I couldn't run or anything, but I could walk fine. Mm-hmm. but I went to the surgeon to have a, you know, post op check sort of thing and I had no strength in kind of moving my foot outward. I I couldn't do it. Yes. Like a rotation out. Yeah, I couldn't do that at all. and then I told him how sometimes I would be walking and I'd be on an uneven surface and my foot would just like flop over. Your
Robin: Roll yeah.
James: ankle. Like rolling my ankle basically. Like you know, if you had intact tendons, like it would be a rolled angle. But there was no muscle resistance at all. It would just flop over and then flop back.
Robin: Sounds like uncomfortable, but also like could give you like a
James: It was just kind of shocking. It it was just it was strange. so I told him that and he was like, that's that's not good. That's not a good sign.
Robin: Okay.
James: so I was able to get an MRI pretty quickly and you know, they they did the thing and the guy was like, Look like I'm not a doctor and I can't diagnose things, but like it looks pretty clear to me any kind of showed me on the screen and the you know how normally when you have imaging done you're just like what is this? Like Or or Yeah,
Robin: Don't tell you anything. They don't tell me anything.
James: well they don't tell you anything but also when you look at it you're just like this looks like nothing. Yeah it's a blob. It's a blob Yeah. Yeah. But even I could see like that's the tendon and it's just like completely sliced. Oof. You know, it's it was just obvious. And so
Robin: So you're kind of already on your way to healing at that point. Apart from this
James: Apart apart from that one thing. Yeah. So how many weeks? So that was a month.
Robin: It was a month after.
James: Yeah. and yeah, so then my surgeon was like, Yeah, that's a you know, your perineal tendons are sliced, we're gonna have to fix those up. and then he was able to get me into surgery just a couple of days later. And yeah, and that actually was really not good for my emotional state 'cause at that point I was almost healed and And then I was gonna have to go not even like back to where I began, but several steps further, you know? Like recovering from a severed tendon was a lot worse than what I initially thought my wounds were. so yeah, that was about two and a half months ago, I think, at this point. and
Robin: So it's just a slower thing to recover. 'Cause
James: It's a much slower thing.
Robin: like tendons and
James: Yeah, I was in a cast for a little while, like plaster cast style. and then I was in a boot for six weeks.
Robin: Like a moon boot thing.
James: Yeah, moon boot thing. Yeah. and or crutches, you know, if I wasn't using the boot. no, I f it's funny how like some you forget so much. I was on one of those like ridiculous little scooters for yeah that you put your knee. Go-go. So I was on that for I think a month. Wow. yeah, and then I was just walking with the boot. and then
Robin: So were you you weren't working at this point, were you? You weren't like pushing around the halls of
James: No, I was, yeah, I was working. You were. Yeah. But the I took off three weeks after the attack and then but they weren't even as far as missing s I'm a teacher, a high school teacher.
Robin: Yeah.
James: I had basically like a week and a half of real teaching that I missed. And then we had our AE week, which is like our alternative education. I was supposed to do surfing in jujitsu with my friend Eric. Which I ended up having to skip. And then we had to leave Yeah. And then we had spring break. So I kinda missed two weeks. Two we two of those three weeks were kinda like not crazy important. and then for the surgery I missed the surgery was on a Wednesday and I missed Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and then I went back to work on Monday. So I was like scooting around school and stuff. The school was actually like an easier place for me to be than home 'cause everything's ADA there, so
Robin: that means like accessible and
James: Yeah, accessible. There's like little ramps and things and I had wide open spaces to ride my scooter around. Yeah, and the the kids obviously got a kick out of the scooter. But yeah, so I I was working. Yeah. And then after the boot I've been I w when I leave the house still I wear it, I wear just like a little ankle brace. Uhhuh. and It's only been in kind of the last two weeks or yeah, two weeks that like I feel good ish moving around. stable.
Robin: Like more state.
James: More stable, more endurance, more confident. I still can't run or anything like that. I can't I like I said before, I haven't surfed. But I can walk around and I can bike a little bit now and Okay, cool. that sort of stuff.
Robin: What kind of biking do you like do?
James: do a tiny bit of mountain biking. Okay. Yeah. that's great. I kind of obviously I live in a great place for mountain biking. I kind of put it off for a long time. I would do it here and there. like I did AE week with Derek, where we just take kids mountain biking for the week. Okay. but once we moved into this house and we have the trails like right there. Yeah. I was
Robin: It's literally you're f less than five minutes away, right?
James: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So at that point I had to buy a bike and I've been biking.
Robin: That's great.
James: but I always put it off 'cause I just seemed like a great way to get injured and I just hate being injured. Yeah,
Robin: Yeah, and spend a fortune on it.
James: exactly. I was like I have a like all these surfboards I need to buy, I can't be buying mountain bikes so
Robin: I'm I'm under str I I've been wanting to get a mountain bike for years, but I I haven't been able to sell one of my other bikes first. I need to I can't own more bikes. I'm I'm not saying that, my wife is saying that.
James: Yeah.
Robin: But it is pretty amazing around here. I mean there's a ton of other amazing stuff to do in this wilderness area, right? Like which so so when did you when did you first come here? 'Cause you came from s Southern California. Mm-hmm. Okay. So that How long ago was that? You said ten years ago. Okay.
James: Ten years ago. Yeah.
Robin: Was that a big change? Okay, this is my last interruption to this fantastic conversation with James Eastman. Again, if you haven't followed or subscribed already, just give that button a little tap and it will mean that you can get more great conversations like this one. Also make sure that you check out the Minutes Master project. Go to the website, follow them on Instagram. It's going to make a big difference and it's going to save a lot of lives. So If you can help, get involved any way you can, I don't know whether that's gonna be donating or I'm sure there's other ways that you can help, then every little bit is gonna make a difference and save people's lives. Right, back to our conversation.
James: Yeah, it was a big What brought you here? I just I I I'm from Long Beach and you know, I went to school in LA and I studied abroad in Paris. So I like most of my childhood was in cities. Yeah. But I'm not really a city person. Like I'm very much like a country mouse sort of temperament. Uhhuh. And I just wanted to get out of the city and live in a beautiful place. Yeah. And I had been up here as a kid. And so I knew about it and yeah that I just got extremely lucky with getting a job up here. Okay. and then that brought me up here. Yeah.
Robin: Nice. So what was that?
James: Transition light.
Robin: transition like 'cause I mean I remember living in Southern California and then coming up here and it's like you have to relearn fun stuff to do in a way, slightly. It's just a different world
James: yeah, for sure. Yeah. it's really funny. I I tell this story a lot, but I w I wanted to move up here, you know, when I got the job, but I had some hesitations. Okay. Just going from you know, when you live in a city you're anonymous. Mm-hmm. but here you're not anonymous at all, especially if you're a teacher, you know.
Robin: Yeah.
James: so that aspect of it made me nervous. And you know, I think I didn't say that out loud, but somehow the principal at the time intuited that and She was like, I think you need to talk to Jim. And Jim was the teacher that I ended up eventually replacing at the school that I'm currently at. Okay. and he was just like a legendary dude. classic hippie, you know, like white beard. Fearless, just did not care, would like say anything, do anything kind of guy. interestingly, his son was an Olympic runner and and stuff, and he actually just lived up the road.
Robin: Yeah.
James: But he he calls me up and he's like, Hey, you know, I I hear you have some trepidation about moving up into such a small little community and he's like, I just want to tell you you don't have to worry about it. He's like, If you party, that's great. If you drink, that's great. If you smoke weed, that's cool. He's like he's like, just don't get a DUY. And then he's like Actually totally fine if you get a DUI. Yeah, he's like, just don't sleep with a student, you'll be okay.
Robin: the rule.
James: Yeah, that's the rule. I was like, okay. but yeah, it's a transition. But honestly, like the things I like doing, like I I just like being out in the w the woods. I like being in the ocean. I I love surfing with like one or two people. Mm-hmm. I I hi I couldn't deal with the crowds in Southern California anymore. They were just too much.
Robin: Was it getting worse worse?
James: I I think it's gotten worse and it's definitely gotten worse since COVID, I think.
Robin: Okay.
James: but I just much prefer surfing with a couple people that I know well who are gonna, you know, respect the rules and I'm gonna be able to get a bunch of waves and I don't know, I feel like the whole nature experience of surfing is more intact when it's like that as well. When it's not just like a bunch of mm people
Robin: I can see that. Rather
James: Yeah.
Robin: than it just being about like posturing and rules and who's supposed to be doing what and
James: Right. Yeah.
Robin: like worrying about human interaction. Yeah.
James: Yeah, exactly. And and up here it's just a more beautiful place to surf. It's like you look in and it's like stunning landscape and
Robin: Yeah.
James: you know, it's much more rugged and open. It's much more of like a wilderness experience surfing up here than it is down there.
Robin: Yeah. Do you have a yet go on.
James: Yeah, so it was it was a transition and there were you know, I missed like I don't wanna talk too much trash, but like you know, I missed the the delicious Mexican food of Southern California. Like we have Mexican food here, but it's it's not as good as it is in LA, I'll tell you that. so like that that was tough for me. I will say that I think it it has gotten a little better recently, but Yeah. So like there are little things I missed, but this sort of lifestyle suits me so much more than yeah, living in a city.
Robin: Yeah, you make certain sacrifices, don't you? It's funny I talk about that with my wife a lot. It's like certain things like eating out or Yeah, there's just a bunch of stuff, isn't there? But then also then you have access to all this incredible nature and interactions with the wilderness here and
James: Yeah, it's like I can sit on my deck and, you know, just look at birds. Yeah. And that's that's wonderful for There's a lot of There's a lot of and they're cool, you know. I like that.
Robin: You said you were gonna tell me about a mountain lion encounter.
James: Alright.
Robin: But we didn't talk about it yet, did we?
James: No. I can tell you about that. So Go on. Yeah. There's a wave north of here on the Lost Coast that you have to backpack to. and I have you backpacked the the Lost Coast? Yeah. Yeah. So you know that you can only do certain stretches at low tide. It's tidal, yeah. Yeah. So I was gonna go with some people. You actually do you know Danny Aragwin? Okay.
Robin: I don't think so.
James: He mountain bikes a little bit and he has a son, Elijo Elihio, who is a good surfer, who lives in the bay. and I was gonna go with them, but the timing worked out where I couldn't walk with them. I couldn't do the hike with them out there. so they went out the day before me and the way the tides were at that time I basically had to start my hike at at sunset basically.
Robin: Okay.
James: so you know, it got dark quickly and I was all by myself and it was extremely foggy that day. Like so foggy that I couldn't use my lamp because Yeah, it's yeah,
Robin: So bright.
James: it's just shining right back in my eyes. Yeah.
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: So and it's like a a four or five hour hike to the spot and so I'm doing the whole thing in complete darkness by myself, you know, and just looking at the ground in front of me and yeah and walking, you know.
Robin: Yeah.
James: Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, I I I like I lost my glasses somewhere along the way and well, in that five hours. Yeah. Yeah. Like it was kind of a disaster and you know, I was soaking wet. But for the most part it was fine. You know, like I I didn't have any difficulties and I was able to get to my destination and and I was okay, you know? And it was it was kind of a cool experience just hiking that thing in dark in the darkness. and then You know, I looked back down the beach or whatever, down the trail, and you know, there's two lamps also coming down and they ended up being like twenty minutes behind me or something like that. And they were also surfers.
Robin: Okay.
James: and when they got to the campsite, we connected for a moment and they were like, Yeah, so when you were when you were walking, like were there any footprints or anything on the beach? And And I was like, no, you know, I think I was the first person after the the tide, so it was clean slate. Completely clean slate. Yeah, you know? Yeah, yeah. and they were like, interesting. They were like, After one of the creek crossings, two sets of mountain lion tracks came down and walked in your footsteps for two miles. Whoa. And And they must have it must have been very close because like the gap between myself and those two guys w it was only like twenty minutes. Yeah. Like distance. So there was between the two of us there was these two mountain lions just like I mean, I don't know what they were doing.
Robin: Yeah, yeah.
James: Like it maybe stalking me, maybe just like watching and being curious. I don't know. But you know, when I heard that I I like got the chills, you know.
Robin: Sure.
James: but I was also like like I said earlier like kinda pissed that I didn't just randomly turn around and see Like I I probably would have been terrified. But I wanna s I've never seen one and I wanna see one so bad and it's kind of baffling to me that I haven't seen one given how much time I spend in
Robin: Yeah.
James: these sorts of places, you know.
Robin: It'll happen.
James: Yeah. Really often. I I kinda have a funny story about not seeing one also another time. Okay. So Derek, you know. Yeah. It was COVID time, like it was twenty twenty one or something like that, but it was when we were kinda like just allowed to do stuff again. And we always go up to the McLeod River to fly fish.
Robin: Okay.
James: have you have you ever been up there? It's amazing. It's so beautiful. It's like it's just such an epic river. Where
Robin: Whereabouts is that?
James: it's by Shasta sorta. Okay, okay. kinda east of Shasta. in the mountains and it's gorgeous and Because of COVID, and I actually had COVID at the time. I was like on day five or day six or something like that. Yeah.
Robin: But you weren't feeling too bad.
James: I was feeling okay. And Derek was fine with us still doing the trip. But we drove separately. Mm-hmm. and we stopped at this little gas station in McLeod. There's like a little town there to get like ice and things like that. And I had only been in there like once or twice before, so I let Derek go ahead of me
Robin: Yeah.
James: onto the their dirt roads. And as he's kind of pulling out in front of me, I'm thinking like there's gonna be a mountain lion and he's gonna see it because he's in front of me and his car is gonna spook it and I'm not gonna be able to see it. And we're driving up on these dirt roads and they're pretty rugged, and then all of a sudden Derek like slams on his brakes. like p pushes his door open and just looks back at me like like huge eyes, like huge mouth. and of course he saw a freaking mountain lion. Like it just ran acr like right in front of his car. I was so mad. I was just like I was so mad.
Robin: Yeah.
James: I knew it was gonna happen too. I d I was like some sort of weird premonition. Yeah. Yeah.
Robin: Seems like if you have another feeling about
James: I know, I know, I know. I know, I know exactly. I know. I was I was so mad.
Robin: Man. how we doing for time? How you are you are you good? I'm fine, yeah. Yeah? Okay, good. Let me have a look. Two things are wow, I guess we didn't go back that much. Okay. And I'd love to talk a little bit if that's all right with you. Yeah. About you saying you got tired of the crowds down down in SoCal. Mm-hmm. But what was it like growing up there? I mean you you were surfing from a young age?
James: Yeah. I mean, I've been obsessed with surfing for as long as I can remember.
Robin: When was the first time you remember it like arriving on your radar?
James: I remember watching like Endless Summer Two or something like that. And that's a movie. That's a movie. It's like a classic surf surf movie. Okay. there's Endless Summer and Endless Summer Two and It's kind of, you know, the the romance of surf travel kind of thing. But also with some humor. And I don't know, I was probably young, like six or seven, I don't know, five or six, I don't know. And it just seemed like the coolest thing to me. and still I think getting barreled is like it blows my mind that other people don't think it's the most amazing thing that can happen.
Robin: Wait, what is getting barrel?
James: Getting barreled is like when you're inside of the wave. And it's
Robin: Curling.
James: get into space like that and like be surrounded by water. Yeah. but my parents wouldn't let me I did like surf camps and things during the summers. So I'd get a little I get my, you know, a taste here and there. but my parents wouldn't let me surf on my own until I did junior lifeguards. And so I think I did junior lifeguards when was like eleven or something like that. and then after that point, like I would I just surfed all the time. in Orange County. Like Long Beach is not Orange County. Long Beach is LA County, but Long Beach doesn't have good waves because they built a massive break wall
Robin: they did.
James: for the for the port during World War Two, I think, is when that happened. So it used to be a great surf spot but now there's no waves there. so we'd surf anywhere between Seal Beach and Newport Beach. Yeah, and I was just obsessed. and would surf as much as I possibly could. and, you know, I hadn't my friends surfed as well. and then yeah, in high school I was on like our high school had a surf team and I was on the high school surf team. and we would just compete against other high schools in the area.
Robin: Which I can imagine it's probably hot competition given the area that you're
James: Yeah, and my school was not a good school. Like our team kinda sucked in comparison to like we competed against Huntington High. Okay.
Robin: Were they the were they the top dog?
James: they were the top dogs. Like when I when I was a s a student in high school, Huntington High had Brett Simpson and Brett Simpson went on to you know, compete on the championship tour, which is like the highest possible level that you can be as a surfer. Traveling all over the world, you know, com like competing for a world title and that sort of stuff. so yeah, that was like they're they're a whole other level to us. We did though in my high school we we did win the California Inland Division one year for the state, which was cool.
Robin: So but wait, sorry. Inland surfing doesn't sound like it's gonna involve much water.
James: I know, it was like a it was basically a way to separate like the good teams from the bad teams. Okay, okay. like the teams like Huntington High or San Clemente or Newport Harbor or something, you know, like the schools that are right next to well known surf spots. yeah. So like our school was you know twenty to thirty minutes from a surf spot, so I guess that made it inland. Yeah.
Robin: Okay, okay, now I understand.
James: so we weren't great. We weren't that good, but we were competent, you know. Uhhuh. and it was fun to just, you know, get to surf for a high school sport. you know, we'd be at the beach either at six or six thirty, depending on if it was like a regular day or a competition day. it was fun, it was great. And every summer our s our surf coach would take us to Costa Rica. if we wanted to. Like it wasn't like a You didn't
Robin: have to go.
James: no. If like we were willing to pay to go, basically. Yeah, yeah. so we'd get a little surf travel in and stuff like that.
Robin: Is it very different?
James: yeah. It I mean the surf is better in Costa Rica. it's funny 'cause in our minds at the time, like Costa Rica was this amazing surf destination, but and Costa Rica does have good waves, like Pavones is a really well known left, one of the longest lefts in the world. But there are much better surf destinations than Costa Rica. You know, like Mexico is a much better destination, at least in my opinion. Yeah. But there are good waves there and we had a a blast going down there and, you know, high school shenanigans and that sort of stuff. It was fun.
Robin: What were the shenanigans? Did you get into trouble?
James: I didn't. I was a goody goody and you were a goody goody. Yeah, but all my friends weren't. I don't know, just like I mean one funny thing, our our surf teacher, he was he was great and I love him and I don't wanna disparage him, but he he was a little bit spacey at times and one time we showed up to LAX to go down there. huh. And he had left all of the plane tickets at his house in Huntington Beach, which is like an hour and a half away or something like that. Yeah. So he another parent like frantically w went down there, got the tickets, and somehow we were able to still get on the plane and make it. But then when we got to and that year we were going with another high school, Milliken High School. and you know Boys will be boys, we had these hats and we put like little notes and duct tape on them and straw hats
Robin: Sun hats or
James: or what? Like no, just like a baseball hat. Okay, okay. And we were I can't even remember what we were writing, but we were like writing like anti Millikan stuff on them, which was like not a big deal. But Marion, our surf coach, found out and he got pissed, like so mad. But we he didn't know at the time that we had also taken his hat and put a duct tape on it and written like what tickets question mark, you know? And giving it back to him and he was like pissed at us and like wearing this hat that said what tickets and he had no idea. And after he was done yelling at us, we were like, my God, we gotta get this hat back. Like we he cannot know about this hat. Yeah. So we like some I can't even remember how, but we somehow were like, Hey Marion, like do you mind if we see your hat for a moment? And he was like, yeah, sure, okay. And so we took it and like ripped the duct tape off and gave it back to him and he had no idea. You know. So it was like that level of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. but you know, there I'm sure there was other stuff going on too, but I was I I'll
Robin: That you didn't know about.
James: I'm just gonna be i ignorant. I'll plead plead innocence. Yeah. Yeah.
Robin: Yeah. Nice. I think man, I mean like we've been we've been chatting for quite a
James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a lot.
Robin: thank you dude. I think we should maybe wrap it up this time. I'd love to get you on again at some point and yeah, chat more. But Thanks for sharing your story. I'm glad that you're doing good. Yeah. And speedy recovery, man. Is there any I mean you seem like a pretty private person in terms of social and all that kind of stuff, but is anywhere but I was wondering, is there anything you want to say to
James: Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's actually
Robin: Any way you want to send people?
James: there's actually something that's important that I almost like completely forgot. so after the attack, my wife know, she's a emergency room nurse and and and everything and she just got passionate about trying to help this problem, like prevent bad things like this fr from becoming truly terrible. So she has created this non profit called the Minutes Matter project. Okay. it's kind of in the early days of of getting started, but basically what it is is she's working with state parks to put these little emergency boxes together to prevent hemorrhage, basically, f from to prevent people from bleeding out because Right, like if you get attacked by a shark or some other really bad thing happens at one of these remote beaches, especially like blues or something like that. Yeah. like you need to have tourniquets and other things like that available immediately. Like
Robin: Yeah. Make bleed stop or whatever that powder stuff is as well. Or maybe tourniquet at the
James: More Yeah. Yeah. so she's working with state parks to put these little boxes together that will be all up and down Mendocino Coast and who knows, maybe it will grow from there. But I'm
Robin: Does it have a name? Did you say?
James: Yeah, the Minutes Matter Project. Yeah. And Yeah,
Robin: Is there a place where people can go to find
James: I think she just created an Instagram. I think it's the Minutes Matter Project. Okay.
Robin: Put a link in the show notes.
James: yeah, I just wanna make sure I'm saying everything I'm supposed to say about that. 'cause otherwise she'd be pissed. But yeah, the idea is just basically you have everything you need there in case like something bad happens. You can just run to the box and Go grab the things and help your friend out and 'cause really like it's all about the arteries. Like if if one of those gets hit, like it it just could be over within minutes, you know. So you need to have those things there as soon as soon as possible. Yeah. Yeah,
Robin: That's great idea. Remote areas.
James: and she's been working really hard at it and State Parks is on board and I think there's the other thing is there's also gonna She's also gonna I think teach some classes about preventing blood loss and like how to actually like use a tourniquet and pack wounds and and that sort stuff. so I yeah. For me personally, like I don't really do social media or Instagram or anything like that. But I I do think there is an Instagram now and I think she's working on a website. so yeah, people should check that out.
Robin: Yeah, watch this space. I'll update the show notes with things as they happen. Just send me a message and I'll put it make sure
James: Yeah. And I guess just I guess Australia has something like this and Okay. Just recently it like saved some woman's life. She got attacked by a shark and there was a one of these boxes near and they went and got it and she definitely would have died if they didn't have that stuff, so it's important.
Robin: Yeah. Well yeah. There you go.
James: Yeah. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.
Robin: There's one more thing I was gonna ask you about and we can cut this out if it's not something that you're
James: Not.
Robin: or if you were interested in talking about, but I know that there was a go fund me. I don't
James: yeah.
Robin: know I mean I know that that necessarily wasn't something that you set up or or
James: Yeah, but that was
Robin: what I know that there a lot of people wanted to help you.
James: Yeah. we don't need any more money.
Robin: Yeah.
James: if people wanna donate money, they can donate money maybe eventually to the Minutes Matter thing 'cause that will need money and we're actually yeah, I guess I'm glad you asked. We are gonna use t money from the GoFundMe in order to kinda like buy the materials and stuff. for these boxes. Like that's kind of like the kind of like the initial investment or whatever the fundraising that we're using for this project because we didn't end up needing all the money that we got. from
Robin: Yeah, that was a big outpouring.
James: the community, right? Yeah. And the whole thing, like I'm I'm extremely grateful, but like you said, like I didn't set it up, you know, and when they were setting it up, it was kind of two different people set them up for us. Kind of made me uncomfortable. I was like, I'm not sure We need this, but
Robin: I can understand. I mean it it seems like in your nature it's an a it's a kind of Yeah, I could e I could see why it might be an uncomfortable thing. But also, I mean, coming from England, outside perspective, in a world that we live in here where medical care certainly isn't free. You know? Even with insurance. 'Cause
James: Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Robin: I don't know if people even understand that really, who people who are listening who aren't in America. It's like you you're paying for insurance but you s it things are gonna cost you money still.
James: Yeah. No, I a and people people talked me into it basically. Like they're like, It's okay, I promise. And and that was kind of always the thinking that we had, like, whatever surplus we have, we can just e we didn't have the minutes matter thing on our mind yet, but we were like we can give it to Shark Research or Yeah some other thing if we don't need all of it. that was kind of always in the back of our mind. So yeah, that's what we're doing. We're just whatever money we have from the GoFundMe that's left over we're just gonna use to fund this this project.
Robin: couldn't think of a better thing to put it to. Yeah. Like if you can help other people who might experience something similar to what you have.
James: Yeah, it feels good. It's like we received so much love from the community after the shark attack and it feels good to give some back.
Robin: You know? Yeah. Yeah. Well, James, good luck with everything. And
James: Thank you.
Robin: good luck with the fly fishing in a week.
James: Yeah, I can't wait. That's gonna be a good adventure.
Robin: Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Awesome dude. Well
James: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Okay, good. I was I was nervous.
Robin: Everyone's that is another episode done and dusted. Thank you, James, for sharing your time and your incredible story and for just being so brutally honest about the whole experience and then the after effects and everything like that. I send my Best wishes, man. I really hope that everything is going well. And a huge thank you to Chloe as well for starting the Minutes Master project. I know it's gonna make a huge difference. Again, everyone, if you can get over to the website and follow them on Instagram and support them in whatever way you can. It will make a huge difference to people who enjoy being outdoors just like you and me. Also, while I'm at it, I want to say a huge thank you to everyone who is listening along to these episodes. It is fantastic that you are here on the journey. Thank you. If you could make sure that you are following and subscribed, also five-star reviews go a long way. The algorithmy gods really treat us kindly and make sure that the stories like this one with James get out to more and more people. Right, I gotta get out and I think I have some more adventures to chase. Or to be honest, I have some admin, I've got to process some meat, some mushrooms, some fish, I g that hard work to do now, so I'm gonna get on with that stuff. I hope that everyone is in a similar similar boat with adventures in the future and food in the fridge and freezer from the wild. But that's enough from me for now. Thanks everyone for listening. And until next time.