Breaking the Billable Hour: How Subscription Law Firms Are Changing Everything - with Mathew Kerbis

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Welcome to the Wellness Esquire Podcast.
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I'm Ariela, and I'm so excited for you to listen to this conversation with Matthew Kirkus.
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Matthew is a lawyer, entrepreneur, and creator of a subscription-based law practice built around the belief that the billable hour doesn't work for lawyers or clients, and that there is a better way.
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I happen to agree.
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We talk about Matthew's path to law school and how his experience billing by the hour led him to recognize that the model wasn't allowing him to build the kinds of client relationships he valued, and that the model wasn't good for his own well-being.
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One breaking point moment he shares his wedding, he realized that he had just mentally billed his own dad for a phone call.
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As Matthew shares, while he didn't create the concept of the subscription law practice, it's certainly become one of the things he's known for, and he has certainly inspired others to create similar models that work for their practices and their lives.
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Matthew and I also dig into the mechanics of his business model, how he uses technology and transparency to offer legal services starting at just around 20 bucks a month, and why he believes that lawyers who don't embrace AI and new tools will eventually be left behind.
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And again, I agree.
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This conversation is about redesigning the practice of law, questioning old assumptions, and creating a career that actually fits your life instead of consuming it.
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I'm so grateful to Matthew for sharing his story and showing us what else is possible for the legal profession.
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Thank you for listening and enjoy.
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Hello, Matthew.
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Hey, hey.
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How's it going?
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Going great.
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How are you doing today?
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Good.
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Good.
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How are you doing?
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Fantastic.
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We are currently in Hawaii.
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And uh so it it's this has been a strange time zone to be in, um, and not my favorite for having a lot of US conversations because I feel like my day is just starting when everyone else is like, yeah, I've been doing this all day.
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I prefer doing the inverse where I've been up for a while, and then everyone's like, and so I can feel ahead.
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Totally.
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Yeah.
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Yep.
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Well, I am delighted to chat with you.
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I think we were both on uh an Advos Pro event together.
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I think that's how I came across you, maybe um many months ago.
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And um and so I'm I'm thrilled to chat with you.
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I want to hear all about your story.
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And in uh sort of my awareness of lawyers working with the subscription model, I feel like you were one of the very, very first.
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And so I'm really excited to hear about how you got into it.
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Um but we've before we get into what you're doing now, I want to uh understand what led you to law school in the first place.
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Oh yeah, I I just um I want uh are we recording yet?
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Like I start and then we can edit it as well, but I find that when I don't record from the start, we lose magic, and then I'm like, wait, hold on, say that again.
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No, that that that's fine.
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No, I I I love it and sorry for for that uh for the editing and post.
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Yeah, so so uh no for sure.
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I I went uh apologies to them.
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I I went to uh I went to law school in part because I uh I I I really didn't know what I wanted to do, but I knew I wanted to study philosophy in college.
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I just didn't think you can.
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So I actually went I actually went to college undecided.
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And um and then I found out, oh, I could I could major in philosophy, I could go to law school, and like hey, hey, I think I I think you can make money as a lawyer.
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So um so I'm gonna go ahead and try that and see if that works out for me.
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Now it just so happens that that was a really bad reason to go to law school, but it ended up all working out because I really do like being an attorney.
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Okay, fantastic.
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So uh, all right, so law school worked out, and w how did you spend the first uh kind of chunk of your legal career?
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Yeah, so when I got started, I actually had started doing uh foreclosure defense work.
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I don't think anybody ever goes to law school saying, hey, you know what I want to do when I graduate?
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I want to do foreclosure defense work.
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Now, at least I was on the side of the homeowners, right?
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Like I was helped keeping a roof over people's heads.
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And what I didn't realize at the time, though, I was always business model curious, is my my boss, like the law firm owner, because it was, you know, law offices of Joe Schmoe, which were the first two style of law firms that I worked for, actually third, if you include when I was a law clerk in law school, but he just charged a fixed amount every month that we could keep people in their homes.
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So while he didn't think of it or describe it as the subscription model, that's what it was.
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Um, and I did that for just a couple years before leaving to do more of a transactional and litigation hybrid focused practice in the real estate market for legal services and pivoted that uh from there to insurance defense work, which I did for over five years, and that was where I was billing by the hour.
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And within just a year or two of that, I was like, okay, there has to be a better way.
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Of course, it took me like three years to figure out how to do what I'm doing now to get out of there and do my own thing.
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So when you were in that you know, model of billing by the hour and you were like, uh-uh, this does not work for me.
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What did what did your recognition of how much it wasn't a good fit for you, what did that look like?
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How did you feel?
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How did you feel like it you know impacted your clients, your service, your well-being?
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Yeah, yeah.
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And and you know, when I saw the the thrust of the of your podcast, it reminded me of an episode of Law Subscribed where I had an attorney on there, and we talked about the four pillars of health that are necessary for all people.
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And I I that I'm not the expert in that, right?
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That's great about having a podcast, as I'm sure you know, is you don't need to be the expert.
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You just have the experts on to talk about the stuff.
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Yeah, fun competitions.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And and and so anyway, I don't remember what they all were, you know, sleep, diet, exercise, and like fun or like something like that, right?
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And and so he's like, you can't get all four, you can barely get two on the billable hour.
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And so we called the episode the billable hours bad for your health.
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Yeah.
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And what's really nice about like having that context of having that episode.
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Now that was that was over a year into me having my own practice, but I sort of felt that intuitively, even within the first year of billing by the hour, that like, oh, this is this is not good for me.
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This is not good for my family, this is not good for my clients.
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Like, the only people it's good for are the lawyers at the top of the pyramid.
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And that's it.
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And I was like, this cannot work.
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This must not work.
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Um, and and and yeah, but I just didn't know like other options because we don't, we're not taught it in law school.
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There's not a lot of education out there, which is also one of the reasons why I decided to start my podcast, is you know, there's just not a lot of uh information about the business of law.
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There's like how to get clients, right?
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There's like what technology to use, but not like the actual business model of law.
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There was there was a dearth of information out there.
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Isn't that wild?
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It it's truly as if we as lawyers are led to believe that the practice of law is somehow not a business because we're operating.
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I mean, they are, of course, you and I know, their businesses, but we're not looking at them in that way.
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It's crazy.
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And then, you know, sometimes I think people are surprised when it doesn't seem to be working out.
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But if you look at what's going on, it's like, well, look at what we're doing.
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How can it be sustainable?
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Yeah.
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Not so secret, you know, it's not, it's not working out.
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So when you, you know, you went through this, you were working with the billable model, it wasn't working for you.
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Was there a breaking point where you were just like, I simply cannot do this anymore?
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When uh what was that process for you where you realized I I gotta get out, I've got to do my own thing, and here's what it's gonna be.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, uh, there wasn't really one single moment, right?
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I mean, it's like a series of events.
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Uh, but the first time I realized, oh, this is breaking me, is I had just gotten off the like a call with my father.
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I was like, okay, that's point three.
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And I'm like, gosh, what am I, what have I become?
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Right?
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Like, like even like talks with my with my father, and I'm I've come a long way since then.
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That was like that was a really long time ago.
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And I've come to like I don't assign a dollar amount uh like to like my time, right?
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But if I had to, like if I was forced to, it would be like, oh, well, you know, my time is worth like a million dollars an hour, right?
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And like the time that I spend with my family is worth 10 times that, right?
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So so like I just like but billing for it makes absolutely no sense.
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First of all, you're you're undercutting yourself, you're capping the amount of time that you could earn in a day or revenue you could generate for your firm.
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Billers, aka lawyers uh are expensive uh to hire.
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And so like your margins, what you could actually generate, if they actually bill, if the clients actually pay, right?
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Like, like it's all it's just a terrible business model when you start digging into it, which I which I started to do, which was also one of the things that was like, okay, this I have this this cannot work.
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And then the other side of it was my relationship with my clients.
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So like I would have clients who would not contact me until their problem was too big.
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Now, of course, that means I could bill a lot of time for that, but like also, what am I doing?
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I want to help people.
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And if they can't reach out to me until they have no other choice, I'm not really helping people.
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Uh, and then the and finally, like, there was moments where I my knowledge and expertise would help solve when they actually did call me before there was a problem, I would be able to solve it for them sometimes within a couple of minutes.
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And like just the time I would like we would have to pay the staff to open up the file, to bill the client, to bill the point two, or the point one, even, let's be real.
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It's like we will have lost money.
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So that as and like when that happened to me, I was like, what if they just paid me every month?
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And I can just answer questions like this, and I'm I'm providing value, I'm capturing some value from them.
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And then I really, really started to dig into the subscription model as a viable business solution.
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I couldn't give you an exact time frame on that, but I'd say around 2018 is where I really started to do my research on it.
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Your really spot-on description of how the billable model uh you know negatively impacts everybody involved is so well said that it it actually sounds comedic.
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Um and I think the sort of comedic side of it is, you know, anyone who's listening and who's done it is like, yep, it it's it's so sad, it's funny, and that's so spot on how absurd it is that we just have to look at it as you know something to laugh at once we can move on and and do it in a better way.
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Um so did you know anybody at the time that was billing in this way?
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Or did you have to look back at that first job that you have and realize, oh, that was a script subscription model?
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That's what I should do.
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You know, I I I probably go on 30 to 40 podcasts slash speaking engagements like throughout the year on this exact topic.
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And so I talk about it a lot.
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And in addition to like hosting a podcast about it, right?
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But I don't do the talking.
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My guests do.
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That's what's nice about being a podcast host.
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You let the guests do the talking.
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But I um it was in one of those conversations where I was being interviewed about the model that it dawned on me, right?
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So, like, and and I've been interviewed about you know mentorship and teaching and stuff too.
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And and one of the things I've learned being a mentor and being a teacher is you learn stuff when you teach.
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It's not just you imparting your knowledge, but like you're also learning as you're teaching or mentoring or whatever.
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So it's why every lawyer, everybody should be a mentor, because you you learn a bit about yourself and from your mentees, right?
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But I was I was talking, I and that's where I realized, oh my gosh, like my first law firm job as a lawyer was the subscription model.
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It just had never occurred to me.
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And I was like a probably almost a year into having my own my firm subscription attorney LLC, right?
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And and uh, and so like like at the time though, like back in like 2018, I think it was maybe 2019, you'd still find it out there.
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There was an article published by the ABA Journal about alternative fees.
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And maybe three of the lawyers in there were doing subscription billing.
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Two of them, Kimberly Bennett and Jason Foscolo, have been on my podcast.
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And the other third guy who was quote unquote doing subscription billing was actually doing prepaid billable hours, which is not like really subscription billing.
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And we could go into why it's not if you want to.
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But um, so I reached out to Kim and I and I reached out to Jason and eventually had them on my podcast and learned from them.
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Uh, they were super generous with their time, you know, especially Kim.
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And uh, she does coaching and other things.
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Now she has a legal tech company, you know, that that helps with that stuff.
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And um, and and and so it was just like they they were so generous, and and obviously they're not billing by the hour, right?
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So like the way that they perceive time is different than than other lawyers.
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And and then I just I just kept deep diving uh on all other sort of subscription economy type stuff.
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So I've discovered Teen Joe and his book Subscribed.
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Uh now of course I've had Teen on the podcast too.
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He was episode 100, so that was like a major get for me.
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And um, and all the stuff Robbie Cumman Baxter has put out there and Ron Baker, they've both become you've been guests on the pod, and Ron's kind of become a friend over the last few years.
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Having he having discovered my podcast, looking for more stuff about subscription, which is just wild.
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And uh, and and and yeah, so I was just like consuming everything I possibly could about the subscription model and membership economy because there was I ran out, I ran out of stuff for legal stuff about hey, how are lawyers doing it?
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And so I just had to go to other industries and I learned about you know the SaaS startup world and and everything that I could about that.
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And I just extrapolate from that and I applied it to my own practice and and ultimately came up with a very different subscription model than all other attorneys who came before me.
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And and there were several, right?
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Like I found like dozens of attorneys, I've had them all on the podcast.
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Some have been doing subscription for over a decade.
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One has been doing it for like several decades, right?
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But he just keeps to himself and he like has a handful of clients and he's doing well, right?
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So, like, I'm definitely not the first.
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I'm just the first to claim the title of the subscription attorney.
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Um, I definitely stand on the shoulder of giants like Kim and Jason, and uh, and frankly, far more women attorneys and attorneys of color than attorneys who look like me.
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So um, so yeah, but I've I've really taken that tech style approach and applied it to my practice, which I really think has made my practice more sustainable and different from how I've seen it done.
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And I've had some attorneys straight up copy my model now, and I see that they're still using my model, which is great.
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I love that.
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I'm I have an abundance mindset.
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Let's go.
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So you mentioned tech.
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How do you incorporate tech and a really intentional, you know, set of processes and systems and tools uh into making your process work?
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Because I, you know, and part of the question about that is I think a lot of people would look at your pricing and think, how can that be done?
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How is that sustainable?
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So talk about that.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And I'll say my my pricing is at subscriptionattorney.com.
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It's public for clients, but also for lawyers.
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And so is my engagement agreement.
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If you scroll down to the bottom, there was a hyper hyperlink to my engagement agreement.
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And crazy FC.
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I know, I know.
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Uh who would have thought transparency was like a good thing.
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So I uh I charge$20 a month and$50 a page, right?
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Like that's like the starting pricing, right?
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And then my the subscriber benefits change as you go up the subscription level, and we stop counting pages as clients begin to pay me hundreds or thousands a month, right?
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And at the end of the day, like my fixed operating expenses are around$11,000 to$12,000 a year, right?
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I'm a virtual law firm, I have software subscriptions, I have malpractice insurance, I'm probably overinsured, but you know, I'm a risk-averse lawyer, what could you say?
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Uh and uh and so like I don't have a lot of overhead.
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So when you realize what your what your expenses are, what your fixed operating expenses are, and you figure out what do you want to pay yourself, right?
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And then you you add those two things together, okay, and then you figure out, okay, how many subs like what do I need to charge?
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What kind of what's my ideal client?
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And how many of those clients do I need?
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And I've actually taken out, I I've totally revamped over the years my my model based on people who actually hired me and like what they were actually willing to pay.
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So I didn't just set pricing and forget it.
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No, I I like I adapted, I evolved my model, right?
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I got rid of prices nobody paid, or like a few clients paid, but for a short time.
00:16:25.440 --> 00:16:30.879
I got rid of pricing that uh I just didn't get clients like who are freelancers and solopreneurs.
00:16:31.039 --> 00:16:33.120
They just didn't hire me or they didn't stay subscribed, no problem.
00:16:33.279 --> 00:16:37.200
I still have a few, but like the majority were like, no, this is this was not a good fit for them.
00:16:37.279 --> 00:16:38.320
That's fine, whatever.
00:16:38.480 --> 00:16:43.600
Um, I mean, and I just found that my best client were people clients were people who completely own their business.
00:16:43.759 --> 00:16:51.440
They have a few employees, so they get to make all the calls, they're the king or queen of their business, and they're already in the mindset of outsourcing because they have employees.
00:16:51.759 --> 00:16:56.480
And so many of these freelancers and solopreneurs, like they were still doing their own taxes on turbo tax.
00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.120
They haven't, they weren't even outsourcing to like a CPA.
00:16:59.279 --> 00:17:01.279
And so they just weren't in the mindset of outsourcing.
00:17:01.360 --> 00:17:04.960
So they weren't, they didn't make good clients for me, even though I think I provided really valuable services.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:06.960
So I've adapted my pricing significantly.
00:17:07.119 --> 00:17:11.759
But the point is, is like, okay, now people know what my operating expenses are.
00:17:11.920 --> 00:17:15.680
I've talked about it before uh publicly, which I'm happy to.
00:17:15.759 --> 00:17:18.880
Um, you could guess what I maybe want to pay myself, right?
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.359
Like, I'd like to pay myself six-figure salary, but it also doesn't need to be too high.
00:17:23.440 --> 00:17:26.960
It just needs to be enough to support and sustain the lifestyle that I want.
00:17:27.119 --> 00:17:28.960
So I don't burn out, right?
00:17:29.440 --> 00:17:37.920
Uh and and then, you know, like back in, how many clients do I need at$500 a month, a thousand a month, you know, two thousand a month.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:46.319
Even at$20 a month, if they're paying me$50 a page, I'll still like generate like two to two to five thousand dollars of income from that client over the over the year, right?
00:17:46.400 --> 00:17:47.279
Of revenue.
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:50.160
So you don't need a lot of clients.
00:17:50.319 --> 00:17:51.119
And that's the other thing.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:58.799
I get inbound all the time, and and feel free to interrupt me at any time, but but I get inbound all the time, like on LinkedIn and in emails.
00:17:58.960 --> 00:18:05.200
Oh, we can help you scale your business, we could help you bring in a bunch of clients and like help with your intake and marketing.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:09.839
I'm like, I just need like 20 to 40 really good clients.
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:25.119
Like, I'm not trying to grow, I'm trying to sustain and retain clients and get them up the subscription ladder to the extent it makes sense, and get them down the subscription ladder to the extent it makes sense so that they stay a client.
00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:35.759
So, like my whole like all this legal tech, all this marketing, all this, all these, you know, things that coaches teach lawyers, it just doesn't even apply in my world.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:38.319
Um, and the technology does play a big role.
00:18:38.480 --> 00:18:42.400
So there was a a long way to get around to not answering your question about technology.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:45.200
So I'll go ahead and let you ask it again.
00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:50.079
So I know that you're you're big on technology, which I love.
00:18:50.319 --> 00:18:58.720
And I love your your, you know, you're having discussions on LinkedIn and on your podcast and elsewhere about the role of technology and specifically the role of AI.
00:18:58.960 --> 00:19:01.519
And um, and I'm also very big on that.
00:19:01.599 --> 00:19:14.640
On on my view at this point is we're either already at or close to the point where lawyers and firms that don't figure out the responsible way to integrate AI are being irresponsible.
00:19:14.880 --> 00:19:18.640
But you know, the the focus has to be on you've got to use it responsibly.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:27.119
Um, so how how what is your approach to the responsible use of technology?
00:19:27.759 --> 00:19:28.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:28.480 --> 00:19:36.160
I I think that most jurisdictions have some version of Rule 1.5 on fees.
00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:41.440
And at least I think the model rules, it's comment five, but like every jurisdiction's got their own version of this comment.
00:19:41.519 --> 00:19:47.279
And essentially boils down to if you bill using wasteful procedures, you may be in violation of your ethics, right?
00:19:47.440 --> 00:19:54.400
And so my perspective on that, and I teach this in my CLEs, you know, not everything's for informational purposes only on this podcast.
00:19:54.720 --> 00:20:01.119
Um I think that that is the rule that implies we must use technology.
00:20:01.519 --> 00:20:02.319
I agree.
00:20:02.960 --> 00:20:05.920
I I so so strongly agree.
00:20:06.400 --> 00:20:13.039
Yeah, and and so look, at the end of the day, uh, you know, technology does reduce billable hours, right?
00:20:13.279 --> 00:20:23.119
And and so I uh I came up with this framework called uh the visionary lawyers, the pragmatist lawyers, the conservative lawyers, and the skeptical lawyers, right?
00:20:23.279 --> 00:20:27.920
And so the visionary lawyers, we we ditched billable hours years ago, right?
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:34.799
The pragmatist lawyers are sort of realizing right now, hey, AI is disrupting our business model.
00:20:34.960 --> 00:20:37.279
You know, we have to do something about this, right?
00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:41.759
And then the conservative lawyers are like, well, you know, it's letting me take on more work.
00:20:41.839 --> 00:20:47.279
I can maybe increase my billable rate a little bit, but like they'll maybe wait for a couple of years.
00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:52.960
You know, they you know, they know it's gonna come, but like they're still they don't feel the er the need, as the pragmatist lawyers do.
00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:58.400
And then the skeptics are like, you know, oh, you know, maybe I'm pre I'm I'm getting ready to retire.
00:20:58.559 --> 00:21:01.759
Maybe like, no, I I still think the billable hour is not going anywhere.
00:21:01.839 --> 00:21:06.960
And like, and and but realistically, in five years, those lawyers will not be billing by the hour, right?
00:21:07.039 --> 00:21:08.319
Like it's just not going to happen.
00:21:08.559 --> 00:21:13.119
And and AI is is the the force behind that, I I think largely.
00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:15.839
And and for lawyers who think, oh, they get it wrong or or whatever.
00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:17.359
Well, it's not a calculator, right?
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:22.559
It's a probabilistic tool, which by the way, so are humans, right?
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:31.599
Like, like our brain is just like like what what's the like it boggles the mind that lawyers don't like AI because it's not perfect every time.
00:21:31.759 --> 00:21:34.400
When what does a lawyer say as an answer to every question?
00:21:34.799 --> 00:21:35.359
It depends.
00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:36.240
It depends.
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:39.680
That that is that means that that's a probabilistic answer.
00:21:39.839 --> 00:21:42.160
That means, okay, it depends on this, it depends on that.
00:21:42.240 --> 00:21:43.680
You know, it's a probability, right?
00:21:43.759 --> 00:21:46.000
And and and what are the factors and what's the context?
00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:51.279
Okay, now take that and apply it to AI and it becomes a superpower for us, right?
00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:56.000
Like, like it becomes our power tools and and like it's not gonna be perfect, it's not magic.
00:21:56.079 --> 00:22:05.039
And it doesn't make everything that we used to do uh Like just automated, but it takes the time that we used to do it significantly reduced.
00:22:05.200 --> 00:22:08.640
I mean, why do we hire associates coming from a solo practice attorney?
00:22:08.799 --> 00:22:10.880
But why do we hire associates or staff?
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:14.960
We hire them so that they could do the work first and we could just review it, right?
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:21.519
Well, one of the reasons I'm able to stay a solo is I have multiple AI tools doing the work and I review it.
00:22:21.599 --> 00:22:25.920
And it just doesn't take as long to review as it does to create stuff from scratch.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:34.880
And so whatever AI tools you use, I have my three preferences of my three favorite AI tools, but whatever tools the lawyer uses, just remember that.
00:22:35.039 --> 00:22:36.960
Treat it like you would treat an actual human.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:40.000
They're just going to do the work at super speed compared to a human.
00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:43.119
And you're going to get faster results.
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:46.799
Do you mind sharing your three favorite tools that you're using right now?
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:48.319
Yeah, absolutely.
00:22:48.480 --> 00:22:52.319
And so for legal specific things, I use Paxton AI.
00:22:52.400 --> 00:22:55.839
And Paxton, I've been using them for over two years.
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:05.200
This summer of 2025, they did become a sponsor of my podcast, but only because they were like, hey, people are signing up and they're saying like they heard about us from you.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:08.240
You know, maybe we want to sponsor your podcast to get more people to come.
00:23:08.319 --> 00:23:15.200
So like I was already talking about them anyway, but I think it's important I disclose I am a paying customer of them, and they are a sponsor.
00:23:15.279 --> 00:23:16.720
I still pay them every month.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.039
Um and look, and I'll be real too, right?
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.319
The reason I pay them every month is I might find a better tool and I want to be able to unsubscribe, right?
00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.640
And so I'm willing to pay a slight premium to just do a be a month-to-month subscriber.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:36.240
Um, I also use Perplexity, uh, Perplexity Pro as soon as, and and Paxton is 200 a month, by the way.
00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:38.720
Perplexity Pro is 200 a year.
00:23:38.960 --> 00:23:44.240
That was like the easiest renewal I've ever done for like the value I get from Perplexity Pro.
00:23:44.559 --> 00:23:45.920
It's been over a year now.
00:23:46.079 --> 00:23:52.559
I think it was October of last year that I really started to just use Perplexity instead of Google for finding answers.
00:23:52.960 --> 00:23:55.920
I don't do search, I don't use search engines, I use answer engines, right?
00:23:56.000 --> 00:23:59.599
So Perplexity Pro lets me do things like vibe with it.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:04.480
And I use the comment browser, which is the Perplexities uh uh AI-powered browser.
00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:14.079
So I could like vibe in the sidebar with the with the Perplexity AI assistant on like some new uh survey questions or something, and or or for some sort of Google form.
00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:17.039
And then I could say, great, now go make the form.
00:24:17.279 --> 00:24:18.640
And then I go off and do something else.
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:22.079
And I've got like an AI assistant, like anything you could do in your browser, it could do.
00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:24.960
Or like I went to this networking event, I got this spreadsheet.
00:24:25.039 --> 00:24:26.720
I could upload the spreadsheet and I could attach it.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.279
I could say, okay, go and do research on all of these companies.
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:32.880
Here's my ICP requirements, I ideal client profile requirements.
00:24:33.039 --> 00:24:35.920
Go do research and come back and let me know which ones would be good.
00:24:36.079 --> 00:24:40.319
Uh uh, you know, potential clients to outreach to do a follow-up one-on-one meeting.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.279
Okay, okay, great.
00:24:41.359 --> 00:24:42.160
It's these people here.
00:24:42.240 --> 00:24:51.519
I want you to prepare a draft email and create a custom one-click use calendarly link that they could each schedule 30 minutes and we could do a follow-up one-on-one meeting with them.
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:53.359
And it will like prepare all those draft emails.
00:24:53.440 --> 00:24:56.160
Now, I could also say send the emails, but I'm not going to.
00:24:56.240 --> 00:24:58.240
I'm still going to go in and review the email drafts.
00:24:58.319 --> 00:25:00.400
So, like, I just instruct it to do these things.
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:01.920
It goes off and does it.
00:25:02.240 --> 00:25:05.039
And and it's just it's amazing.
00:25:05.119 --> 00:25:06.400
I I love perplexity.
00:25:06.559 --> 00:25:07.440
Um, is it perfect?
00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:12.160
No, but like sometimes you just have to, just like a real human, you're just like you nudge it and you say, Oh, you know you missed something here.
00:25:12.240 --> 00:25:12.799
Can you fix that?
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.000
Or you stopped halfway through.
00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:14.799
Could you finish your work?
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:15.519
And then it will.
00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:16.559
You just have to pay attention.
00:25:16.640 --> 00:25:17.680
It's not magic, right?
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:19.839
And then the third one is notebook LM.
00:25:19.920 --> 00:25:22.880
And I do a lot of teaching and educating on Notebook LM.
00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:27.119
Uh, and I use the pro version because I'm in Google Workspace instead of Microsoft.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:36.240
And uh it, and I mean, I just I use it side by side with Paxton a lot when it comes to analysis of contracts or document data sets and other things like that.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:39.039
But then you could also do things like you could pull in YouTube videos, right?
00:25:39.119 --> 00:25:49.039
So, like if you're uh an IP attorney and you do copyrights and the the copyright office has released one of their like hour-long YouTube videos, you don't have to go and watch it, even at two times speed of 30 minutes.
00:25:49.119 --> 00:25:59.440
Instead, you could throw it into Notebook LM, you could tell it to give you the most important things related to your actual practice broken down, and it will do that in text, it will do that in audio, and it will do that in video, like a PowerPoint presentation.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:02.400
But instead of it being an hour, it's like five minutes, right?
00:26:02.480 --> 00:26:03.599
Or 10 minutes, right?
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:09.599
And and so like you could just get to understanding materials so much faster.
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:17.680
And if I was a student today, I would be using Notebook LM in everything I was learning about as a student, a hundred percent.
00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.680
I I mean, I and so I use these three tools almost on a daily basis.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:25.359
I don't always need to use Paxton, but I'm using Paxton multiple times weekly.
00:26:25.519 --> 00:26:30.960
I'm using Perplexity a hundred plus times a day, and I'm using Notebook LM every day.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:36.240
I don't really know quite how many times I'm using Notebook every day, but it is definitely every day.
00:26:37.519 --> 00:26:46.319
So now that you're you've been using this model for a a long time, how do you think about the value of your services?
00:26:47.359 --> 00:26:49.119
Meaning Yeah, go ahead.
00:26:49.599 --> 00:26:54.319
Just, you know, we we come from a training where we're not thinking about the value of our services.
00:26:54.400 --> 00:27:00.559
We're thinking about, you know, the the time every minute, how much money that minute is worth or six minutes.
00:27:00.799 --> 00:27:14.720
And, you know, for me, the shift to the subscription model, I started to really think it it was a thrilling shift for me to think about the actual value I'm giving to a client and not, oh God, how much time am I spending on this thing?
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:17.920
But how is this going to impact their business?
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:20.960
It feels so how do you think about that?
00:27:21.359 --> 00:27:21.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:27:22.000 --> 00:27:26.480
And and so I definitely just don't think about how long something's going to take, literally ever, right?
00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:30.480
Like I don't track my time, but I do control my time.
00:27:30.640 --> 00:27:33.039
So like I mentioned the calendarly links earlier, right?
00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:36.079
Like I whenever a client subscribes, I make a new calendarly link.
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:37.680
Really, I duplicate an old one.
00:27:37.759 --> 00:27:41.200
I could probably tell Perplexities assistant to just do this for me now.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:43.039
But um, you know, it takes like two minutes.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:46.880
Um so I duplicate an existing client link depending on which level they're subscribed at.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:48.319
They get a custom scheduling link.
00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:50.319
And if they ever unsubscribe, I just turn it off.
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:53.920
Like they can't get a hold of me, they can't get on my calendar again.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:04.079
And uh and you could set up limits like, oh, they can only schedule so many a month or whatever, but like realistically, like I want them scheduling time with me, right?
00:28:04.240 --> 00:28:11.440
Because when they schedule time with me, that means I'm helping them with a legal problem and they're bringing me business.
00:28:12.240 --> 00:28:14.640
Like, I so I'm not worried about them reaching out to me.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:25.519
And then some you know, when I I help teach lawyers and law firms how to like pivot from subscription, uh, from billable hours to subscription, and they'll be like, oh, well, what if this one thing takes longer than all the other cases?
00:28:25.839 --> 00:28:26.640
So what?
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:27.920
It doesn't matter.
00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:34.880
You're not trying to maximize revenue in the short term, you're trying to maximize revenue in the long term by providing ongoing value to your clients, right?
00:28:35.039 --> 00:28:36.720
So it becomes a long-term play.
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:44.079
And Robbie Kalman Baxter, her books do a really good job of like explaining this about the forever transaction and the membership economy.
00:28:44.160 --> 00:28:46.880
Those are her two books, highly recommend at a minimum.
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:57.279
You know, buy them or download them and uh scan it and upload it into Notebook LM and like have it like, you know, create some cont some easier to digest content from there.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:02.960
But Robbie also posts some great stuff on LinkedIn, so how she's she's a follow-all post person for sure.
00:29:03.279 --> 00:29:06.000
And and then you you get you just get out of that mindset, right?
00:29:06.079 --> 00:29:08.880
So like you're not looking at the weeds, you're looking at the forest.
00:29:09.200 --> 00:29:12.160
And you just want to cultivate and grow the forest.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:15.759
You don't care if there's some weeds growing out, or this one thing took a little bit longer.
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:16.559
Who cares?
00:29:16.720 --> 00:29:18.640
As long as you have capacity, that's all that matters.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:22.880
And these AI tools and automation tools just let us scale without more hiring.
00:29:23.039 --> 00:29:24.880
And and not to say that we don't hire.
00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:34.400
You will eventually need to hire if you want to scale or increase your pricing, but I could probably double my pricing, I'd lose some clients, and I'd make more money, but that's also not necessarily the point.
00:29:35.440 --> 00:29:39.200
So how does this model allow you to live your life?
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.279
Like what does a a standard week look like for you?
00:29:46.079 --> 00:29:50.960
Well, you know, look, the first year was not like all rainbows and sunshine, right?
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:52.000
Like starting a new business.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:29:55.200
Right.
00:29:56.799 --> 00:30:02.160
So my first client paid for my first year of operating expenses in the first like couple months, right?
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.880
So like at least like I knew, okay, I don't have to go into my savings, right?
00:30:07.359 --> 00:30:10.400
Like we're we're paying for operating expenses.
00:30:10.559 --> 00:30:15.680
And then I was able to start to get more and more clients and um and and built it up a little bit.
00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:25.920
And within the first like six months, I had made enough that at least for that year, we weren't gonna have to touch any sort of reserves that funds that we had, right?
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:29.119
Plus, my wife works a corporate gig and I'm on her benefits, right?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:31.759
Like, I mean, so there's there's something to that too, right?
00:30:31.839 --> 00:30:33.359
Like, like it's not magic.
00:30:33.440 --> 00:30:38.480
And and if she wasn't, I mean, I might have to start charging more on hiring and like doing some other things.
00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:45.759
But the reality is, is I'm the spouse that's available for the kiddo when she's sick and needs to be picked up early from school, right?
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:54.559
Or there's a holiday and the school's closed and uh, you know, I could still get some work done, but I block off that day for scheduled client calls, right?
00:30:54.960 --> 00:31:04.799
So uh so like I'm the available parent in the relationship so that my wife could focus on her work and her family time and not have to worry about anything else.
00:31:04.960 --> 00:31:07.839
You know, she works from home now too, but she didn't used to.
00:31:08.000 --> 00:31:11.200
And so I would also take care of most of the stuff at home, right?
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:27.039
And so, like not having to charge too much and not needing to get too many clients just to grow, grow, grow meant that I was able to steadily and sustainably start and grow a business to a reasonable threshold where I'm still able to sort of handle all these things.
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:39.359
Now, look, like we outsource things like lawn care and clean house cleaning and other things, because you know, it is still more valuable time for me to spend in my business during the day than like handling stuff like that, right?
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:42.720
So I think outsourcing even things like that can be valuable.
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:49.599
Um, because like I said, I don't value my time as a dollar amount, but I still want to preserve and protect and could and control my time.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:52.319
So those are some of the ways that I that I do that.
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:54.480
That's amazing.
00:31:54.799 --> 00:32:06.160
So I know that you you've been building this community of lawyers who, you know, they find out about this crazy idea of a subscription model, but then often are like, okay, but uh it sounds nice.
00:32:06.240 --> 00:32:07.119
How do I do it?
00:32:07.359 --> 00:32:20.880
And I think was it last night maybe you held your first in-person dinner or recently with bringing people together to actually kind of develop a community around how do how do we do this and support each other?
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:21.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:28.720
So we we had some interest in that, but it ended up not, we didn't have enough people to make it worth it.
00:32:28.799 --> 00:32:35.039
And and I will say part of it was the platform is called dinner, and they really want to do dinners on weeknights.
00:32:35.119 --> 00:32:38.480
And I was like, How about dinner for brunch on a weekend?
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.039
And like, because like I I can't go to the city on a weeknight.
00:32:43.200 --> 00:32:46.000
And they were like, Well, this is what we find works.
00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:53.839
I was like, Yeah, but like my audience is our like parents, small business owners, they're not living in the city, they're living in the suburbs.
00:32:53.920 --> 00:32:58.799
So I was like, I I think we should can I can I like hack the platform and do dinner for lunch?
00:32:58.880 --> 00:33:02.000
They're like, no, we really want to test this out and try to do it for dinner.
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:07.039
And we got like one person who registered and like six people who didn't complete the form.
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:16.000
I was like, I don't want to reach out to those six people and like make them uh you know complete the form if they're like they were like, oh, this doesn't make sense for me, right?
00:33:16.079 --> 00:33:18.640
Because like it does it wouldn't make sense for me personally.
00:33:18.960 --> 00:33:19.200
Sure.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:26.960
So so I was in part, I know the founder of the company, and I was I wanted to give, you know, let her tap into my community to see if it could work.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:37.920
And and the other successful like dinner club people on that platform, they all are like targeted towards young people or singles, right?
00:33:38.000 --> 00:33:44.960
So it's like a hack for dating, and I'm like, oh well, I wish I would have known that before I like partnered with you and did some advertising and stuff to my audience.
00:33:45.119 --> 00:33:45.920
But but that's okay.
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:47.440
Look, I there has been interest.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:34:01.839
I think dinner is not going to be something that we try again for my community, but I do also have a new tech company that um will probably be where I mostly try to push people towards if they really want to change their practice.
00:34:02.160 --> 00:34:02.480
Yeah.
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.880
Okay, so let's talk about that.
00:34:05.039 --> 00:34:13.519
So I know that you also you describe your law firm, which I I love and am delighted by as a tech company that happens to also be a law firm.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:14.159
Correct.
00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.440
We already talked about it.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:18.800
You're into you're into the you know tech and the role it can play.
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:20.239
So what are you building?
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:21.199
Yeah.
00:34:21.840 --> 00:34:22.880
What what's missing?
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.920
So why why are you filling what gap are you filling?
00:34:26.400 --> 00:34:26.800
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:26.960 --> 00:34:29.519
So what what I've learned, and I'm curious to get your perspective on this.
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:31.440
Actually, let me ask you some questions first.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:41.039
Um, for your tech stack, do you try to do everything with one technology solution, or do you still ultimately have like a bunch of different tech tools that do highly specialized things?
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:44.719
My husband is building me a new tech platform because what's out there doesn't work.
00:34:44.880 --> 00:34:50.320
So I am routinely, and I was a person raised on the value of the right tools.
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:53.440
So I I use a range of tools.
00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:01.599
There are a few, or there are some things that I like well enough, but nothing gives me exactly what I need, which is why we're building something new.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:07.599
Because it it's it becomes inefficient and things get slowed down, and uh I don't like that.
00:35:08.559 --> 00:35:21.840
And in my experience, things like your your legal practice, law practice management platforms that try to do everything for you, they they also slow you down because they have seven out of ten tools, not 10 out of 10 tools, right?
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:35.280
And so like Calendly integrates with a lot of things, but even if it didn't integrate with anything, I would still use Calendly because it's easy to use, it's super affordable, I get way outsized value for it, and it just works.
00:35:35.440 --> 00:35:39.360
And all the automations I could set up, right, where people could easily reschedule things.
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:41.840
Um, you know, I could I really could really control my calendar, right?
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:48.000
So like there is no start your subscription or offer your subscription services.
00:35:48.480 --> 00:35:50.320
That's like the calendarly, right?
00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:50.719
Of that.
00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:52.239
It's like this is all it does.
00:35:52.400 --> 00:35:55.360
It's not trying to replace your whole tech stack.
00:35:56.159 --> 00:35:59.519
And uh you know, look like I mentioned Ken Bennett, she is a company Fadoo.
00:35:59.599 --> 00:36:00.320
Fidu's great.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:06.719
I I tried it, it just didn't work for me because again, it's trying to replace my whole tech stack, and I like my best of re tools.
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:09.119
For some lawyers, if that's what they want, fine, go for it.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:10.000
That's your option.
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:17.599
But I I think there's even if lawyers think they want an all-in-one solution, I think they're left dissatisfied and left wanting.
00:36:18.079 --> 00:36:22.880
Um I know because my most popular episodes are about technology on my podcast, right?
00:36:23.119 --> 00:36:25.039
Um, that's why I have a focus on that.
00:36:25.199 --> 00:36:38.960
And and so I you know, I I believe and I've gotten a lot of interest that that like that like we just need a tool that we don't worry about coaching, we don't worry about mindset, we don't worry about all these extra things replacing all your tech stack.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.320
No, it's just like okay, in five minutes, you're gonna have subscription billing and you can start generating recurring revenue, right?
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:47.679
And so that's what I I think we've successfully built.
00:36:47.760 --> 00:36:54.400
So I partnered with uh uh an ex-Google um software developer to develop the thing.
00:36:54.559 --> 00:36:59.760
And it's only been a few months, but um but the product works.
00:36:59.920 --> 00:37:02.880
It's not everything we want it to be, but it works.
00:37:03.199 --> 00:37:05.519
And I have some clients through the platform.
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:10.480
Oh, it's out of well, it's in it's in early beta, right?
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:15.199
And so like you know, part of me is like, oh, do I give you the the link publicly to share?
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:26.719
It's like, well, you know, if we get too many people that come into it, because we're you know, we're fit we're finding we're finding things and we're fixing bugs and we're making it more user-friendly, right?
00:37:26.800 --> 00:37:28.159
And and like it it works though.
00:37:28.239 --> 00:37:31.280
Like that's like the main thing is it definitely works from what it's supposed to do.
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:32.639
That's so exciting.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:33.440
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:33.599 --> 00:37:35.280
And and so we are letting some folks in.
00:37:35.360 --> 00:37:40.320
I mean, I don't know, you tell me, do you want me to share it with you publicly or privately?
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:41.280
How many people do you think?
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:42.719
It's entirely up to you.
00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:55.440
I mean, so I this is I'm launching the the podcast in a couple of weeks, and um, you know, and it's possible by the time we we put out your episode, and you can have a say in you know where to bring you out.
00:37:56.079 --> 00:38:00.239
Um, great.
00:38:00.320 --> 00:38:00.719
Let's go.
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:02.400
I'll I'll share it with you.
00:38:02.480 --> 00:38:06.960
And then you could you you can maybe even sign in and play around with it and set up your subscriber benefits and all that stuff.
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:07.840
Amazing.
00:38:08.079 --> 00:38:20.400
Um and it's so yeah, yeah, because then it in a what from what we're learning, and and and you know, to lawyers, this might be bumbo jumbo, but in the software development world, it's like you do you have what are called sprints.
00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:21.440
We have admired.
00:38:21.760 --> 00:38:24.400
I only know about this because my husband's in tech.
00:38:24.880 --> 00:38:25.280
Yeah.
00:38:25.599 --> 00:38:31.280
And so it we have my founder and I right now, we're we're we're doing my co-founder and I we're doing week-long sprints.
00:38:31.360 --> 00:38:34.480
And so we meet up every Wednesday and like, okay, what did we accomplish last week, right?
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:38.480
So we're making improvements pretty rapidly at this stage because we're also still very small, right?
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:42.400
And the product is very minimum viable product, although it does very much work.
00:38:42.559 --> 00:38:53.760
Um, and so the next big thing we're working on is having some default subscriber benefits put in, because right now it's you come in, our earliest users, they're already using the subscription model.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:59.760
And so they're easy that they could just sort of copy and paste from their website or their engagement agreement, which makes it easier for them.
00:39:00.000 --> 00:39:08.159
But um, but for other folks who are coming in that that they are not already doing it, they're not an advanced subscription users.
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:16.800
We found that, okay, we need to give them default subscription pricing to at least have something to start with and default subscriber benefits.
00:39:16.960 --> 00:39:18.639
And so we're working on that right now.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:21.440
And so by the time this episode comes out, hopefully that's out there.
00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:30.639
But if it's not, my advice is go to Perplexity, go to Gemini, go to ChatGee, like go to one of your favorite AI tools and be like, here's all the services I offer.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:34.639
Um, I want to offer subscriber benefits and subscription pricing.
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:39.280
Give me 10 recommendations on what I should offer and then what's subscription tiers, right?
00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:47.519
Give me good, better, best pricing, or give me done, done, uh, do it yourself, done with you, done for you style pricing, three-tiered pricing.
00:39:47.679 --> 00:39:54.639
And and so go in there, and and we're we're coming out with these like just PDF guides of like how to come up with your subscription pricing while we build this out.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:58.320
So maybe by then we'll at least have the guides, maybe even the tech built out.
00:39:58.480 --> 00:39:59.199
So okay, all right.
00:39:59.280 --> 00:40:03.039
That that's enough hold holding back on the URL.
00:40:04.800 --> 00:40:05.679
Thank you for sharing that.
00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:07.039
And and congratulations.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:08.960
That's it's really exciting.
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:18.880
And um, you know, uh I I never would have thought that you know, building tech would be part of my career.
00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:23.840
Did you ever anticipate that that would be part of your career?
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:27.440
I I mean, even still, like I'm not really building it, right?
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:29.519
My co-founder is he's the technical one.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:32.480
Yeah, but it wouldn't he be doing it without you?
00:40:32.639 --> 00:40:36.639
You wanted to and you're the one with the expertise.
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:43.119
You're the one who knows this is how the business needs to operate, the model you know, needs to operate, this is what lawyers want.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:44.639
He can't build this without you.
00:40:44.800 --> 00:40:46.719
So I hate to tell you that you're building tech.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:49.519
Yeah, no, I I I know, I know, no, I I I agree.
00:40:49.599 --> 00:41:00.480
And and definitely being on the Wellness Esquire podcast, it's like um, you know, yeah, all I needed was one more, you know, hat to wear, you know, co-founder, CEO of a of a tech startup.
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:05.280
So uh so the web the website is it's it's called the the company.
00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:09.840
We're still like in like stealth mode, which means like we're not like publicly marketing or whatever.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:11.840
The website gives away the brand, but that's okay.
00:41:12.000 --> 00:41:14.800
I'm still not gonna post it on LinkedIn probably for several months.
00:41:14.960 --> 00:41:18.000
Um, but your early listeners of your podcast will will learn it then.
00:41:18.079 --> 00:41:18.880
It's called Practi.
00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:19.840
Practice.
00:41:20.320 --> 00:41:23.280
As in practice, but you cut you stop at the I before the CE.
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:25.679
So practice.ai is the URL.
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:26.960
And you could just sign up.
00:41:27.119 --> 00:41:30.719
You could sign up right now, and it's you know, we're calling it our early beta.
00:41:30.880 --> 00:41:37.599
We we did have a wait list originally, but then we were just like, you know what, we're not advertising, let's just put it out there on the main website.
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:42.000
And so it's yeah, P-R-A-C-T-I.ai, and you just you could sign up.
00:41:42.079 --> 00:41:52.719
And if you if you don't hesitate, you could have subscription billing and benefits set up in less than five minutes, and you can start generating recurring revenue for your law firm.
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:54.800
I mean, you know, the rest is still on you, right?
00:41:54.880 --> 00:42:09.920
Like you got to make sure you reach out to your client after they subscribe, you got to make sure you do a conflict check, you got to make sure you have them sign an engagement agreement or do something that like we're still building out the platform, everything else is still on you as the law firm owner, but you probably already have those in place anyway.
00:42:10.400 --> 00:42:14.800
And and so all we're doing is we're replacing your invoicing, your billing, your time tracking.
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:18.880
Like those are usually one piece of software or one tool in a soft in a stack.
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:20.480
Yeah, that's amazing.
00:42:20.559 --> 00:42:24.719
And I mean, to me, you know, the the the role of technology is to make your life easier.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:30.880
And so, you know, everything you just described that goes into this or the main pieces, that can be such a hurdle.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:43.119
And if that process is so, you know, just challenging for you to navigate through that it takes you two hours to do, you're either not going to do it or it's gonna take up more of your day than is reasonable.
00:42:43.280 --> 00:42:49.760
So if you every piece of technology just you know gives you energy back, that's a win.
00:42:50.480 --> 00:42:59.360
Yeah, look, and and in the future, you know, we'll we'll look into integrating into other platforms and and probably Calendly integration is is high up on that list, right?
00:42:59.679 --> 00:43:03.199
But um but we're we're very early stages, right?
00:43:03.280 --> 00:43:11.760
Like we were started, you know, like really my like it was it was really started this summer, but the company was not founded until the fall, right?
00:43:11.840 --> 00:43:13.599
And we're at the end of fall right now.
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:20.079
So it's still very, very early, but we're building such a specific product that it didn't take long to build it.
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:23.440
Nobody's built this specific of a product in the history of legal tech.
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:30.400
What do you think is the challenge with legal tech?
00:43:30.719 --> 00:43:32.239
The question is coming from this place.
00:43:32.400 --> 00:43:39.440
When I launched my firm, one of the things I was most excited about was having total control with the tech that I use.
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:44.559
Because up until that point, I spent a lot of time wanting to throw my computer out the window.
00:43:44.800 --> 00:43:53.679
And and just feeling like I was wasting so much time and energy with whatever I was being made to use, because it it either made my life, it it sucked.
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:54.559
It just sucked.
00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:56.639
And then I started, you know, I launched my own firm.
00:43:56.719 --> 00:44:01.360
I was so excited, I tried a few things, and I was like, this is not the Doing what I want it to do.
00:44:01.519 --> 00:44:02.320
This is so hard.
00:44:02.400 --> 00:44:08.880
And then especially because my husband's been in tech his whole career, he would look at some of these platforms and be like, why did they do that?
00:44:09.039 --> 00:44:10.960
They've got six different product managers.
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:12.000
They're not talking to each other.
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:13.440
Why are these products distinct?
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:14.320
This doesn't make any sense.
00:44:14.480 --> 00:44:15.280
These don't go together.
00:44:15.440 --> 00:44:16.239
What is happening?
00:44:16.400 --> 00:44:18.159
And I would just say, I don't know.
00:44:18.400 --> 00:44:19.280
Help me.
00:44:20.159 --> 00:44:22.079
So so I have real answers for you.
00:44:22.159 --> 00:44:27.199
And by the way, they don't like the answers also don't offer a real solution, right?
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:34.159
But um the first is you have lawyers building tech for lawyers.
00:44:34.719 --> 00:44:41.679
And if the lawyer owns the product, then it's going to be terrible because we don't know product, right?
00:44:42.000 --> 00:44:43.440
I think I happen to know product.
00:44:43.599 --> 00:44:47.360
And by product, it's I it's a very technical term in the software development space.
00:44:47.440 --> 00:44:49.119
But my husband's been in product.
00:44:49.199 --> 00:44:50.960
Again, the only reason I know what you're talking about.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:51.599
Right.
00:44:51.760 --> 00:44:55.679
And and and so like when lawyers design products, they're just awful.
00:44:55.840 --> 00:44:56.800
Like they're just really bad.
00:44:56.960 --> 00:45:04.159
So it's like whenever I see on a legal tech platform site like made by lawyers for lawyers, I'm like, okay, this is gonna, this is gonna not be good.
00:45:04.320 --> 00:45:07.440
So we're definitely not advertising that at practice, right?
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:15.440
Um and and I very much one of the reasons I picked my co-founder is he's very good at what he does on the software development product side.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:24.159
Now I have a million product ideas, right, and things that I think will work, but I don't exercise control over what it needs to look like or what the interface should be.
00:45:24.320 --> 00:45:26.719
And so I'm I'm you know, lesson learned, right?
00:45:26.800 --> 00:45:28.320
So like I'm trying to solve that problem.
00:45:28.480 --> 00:45:42.239
And now the other reason legal tech sucks, although I think Paxton has avoided this largely, and I and I'll tell you how I think they managed to do it, is when you have people who are outside of legal, designed for legal, then it's not purpose built.
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.199
And so it's not like something that lawyers want to adopt, right?
00:45:45.840 --> 00:45:57.119
Now, what Paxton did is like one of I think like one of their very early hires, one of their first like five or six employees, was a in-house counsel and head of legal product, right?
00:45:57.360 --> 00:46:04.480
And so like like they they realized they needed to make a legal hire early, and and I don't know if he's considered a co-founder or not.
00:46:04.559 --> 00:46:07.920
I I don't I don't know that, but he was a very early hire.
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.760
And he's also something that is almost unheard of.
00:46:12.000 --> 00:46:15.360
A Harvard grad who had a solo practiced firm.
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:18.960
I mean, like they all go into you know big law education, right?
00:46:19.119 --> 00:46:23.519
And so like they just found a diamond in the rough, I think, with him, with Eddie.
00:46:23.760 --> 00:46:26.239
Um, so like I think they managed to avoid it.
00:46:26.320 --> 00:46:34.960
And then the other place that I think is avoided it largely in legal AI tech is GCAI, Chichilia Zaninti, the founder of GCAI.
00:46:35.519 --> 00:46:42.000
She was an in-house attorney for the vast majority of her career, and she built a product for in-house attorneys.
00:46:42.159 --> 00:46:45.920
So she is the ultimate expert, and I really like their product as well.
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:56.639
I think it's a little overpriced for social practice law firms, but then that's the other big flaw of legal tech, is they think, oh, it's lawyers, so we could charge ever anything and everything that we want.
00:46:57.360 --> 00:47:10.639
But what's great about these deep research tools, these AI deep research, and I like to use Perplexity's version of that, is you could actually do comprehensive analysis on what lawyers make at what type of law firm that they're at.
00:47:10.800 --> 00:47:13.599
Because there is a lot of data, though it's all disaggregated, right?
00:47:13.840 --> 00:47:19.280
So what I found is um of and and this this number varies, right?
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:26.400
Like it's either somewhere between 300 and 500,000 of the 1.3 million US lawyers are solo or small firm attorneys, right?
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:28.239
So it's like it's a little bit of a range there.
00:47:28.400 --> 00:47:39.760
But what I did find a lot of evidence that supported was 37% of solo lawyers make like they have like income of less than$150,000.
00:47:41.119 --> 00:47:45.280
And so first of all, that's you could you could live an okay life on that, right?
00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:50.239
And realistically, your spouse, if you're married, you know, probably has a similar income, right?
00:47:50.320 --> 00:47:57.920
So you could live a good, you know, lower upper class or very high upper middle class life with dual income at that amount.
00:47:58.159 --> 00:48:05.760
But if you're making$150,000 a year, that may I didn't ask, I need to ask if that's like just revenue or income, right?
00:48:06.239 --> 00:48:09.280
Um because if it's just revenue, then they're making even less, right?
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:11.679
But that's before taxes income.
00:48:12.239 --> 00:48:16.719
Let's assume you can't charge more than one or two hundred dollars a month for technology.
00:48:16.880 --> 00:48:17.440
You just can't.
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:21.519
And because especially if you're not going to be the only tech solution they subscribe to.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:29.039
And so in talking with like venture capitalists building a legal tech company now, like this is something I have to explain to them all the time.
00:48:29.199 --> 00:48:31.039
And it's like, no, this is the market we're trying to serve.
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.199
And they're like, well, can't you sell into big law?
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:49.920
Well, because Harvey is an anomaly, and and big law has the long sales cycle, and big law is less likely to adopt the subscrip subscription billing because they have institutional clients and they're a big giant boat, and it's easier to turn a small boat than it is a big one.
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.320
And then they're like, Oh, yeah, yeah, okay, that makes sense.
00:48:52.480 --> 00:49:01.679
So, like, like legal tech venture capitalists who are investing in all these legal tech companies, like like literally like a billion, over a billion dollars was invested in legal tech in 2024.
00:49:02.000 --> 00:49:02.559
Wow.
00:49:03.039 --> 00:49:09.039
And and like they they just they think like lawyers have a lot of money because they just don't know.
00:49:09.599 --> 00:49:11.440
But the reality is they don't.
00:49:11.599 --> 00:49:12.400
They're constrained.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:18.719
And so one of the reasons that even though we're not charging a lot, it's because we want to help lawyers make more money, right?
00:49:18.960 --> 00:49:20.960
And have a more balanced life.
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:27.920
Um, and and help them serve clients that they've never that have never been served by lawyers before because that these clients they need pricing certainty.
00:49:28.239 --> 00:49:28.559
Right.
00:49:28.800 --> 00:49:29.840
Absolutely.
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:40.480
I I love the way you're thinking about all this, and and we're we have a very similar approach with what we're building, is you know, uh when I was looking at all these options, because I didn't want to build something up.
00:49:40.800 --> 00:49:41.840
I do plenty.
00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:42.559
Oh yeah.
00:49:42.800 --> 00:49:43.920
I wasn't bored.
00:49:44.079 --> 00:49:56.719
Um, but you know, when you look at anything that's out there, and then you know, there are there are a number of platforms out there that have good reviews that people like, but you know, is it the right fit for a a solo or small firm?
00:49:56.960 --> 00:49:58.159
Often it's not.
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:08.000
Um and you know, pricing wise, but also if it's if it's just built for something that's massive and you're not that yet, or you don't plan to be, it's also likely not to be the right product.
00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:12.559
So I'll I'll tell you a tool I think looks really interesting and I'd really love to use it.
00:50:12.639 --> 00:50:18.719
It's called Lawmatics, but they have minimum pricing of three seats, you know, at their lowest skew.
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:21.920
And it's like, why am I gonna pay for two seats that I don't need?
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:22.880
Right.
00:50:23.440 --> 00:50:33.440
It it it feels to me that a lot of people, you know, the way that a lot of people just assume, oh, you graduate law school and all of a sudden you're making, you know, a shit ton of money, and that's just not how it is for most people.
00:50:33.599 --> 00:50:46.800
Um, there's uh the stereotype that we just lawyers are walking around making a lot of money, that everyone can just, you know, that there's no financial challenges and you know, oh, it's minimum three seats, so just buy three seats, try it out.
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:50.400
It's just not practical for for most people.
00:50:51.360 --> 00:51:03.360
And this is one of the reasons why, and I don't want to turn this into an ad, but uh we say it like on the website of Practice your first client you sign up to the platform is free, like minus process payment processing fees, right?
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:05.599
If you take credit card or ECH payments or whatever, right?
00:51:05.679 --> 00:51:13.840
It's like it's like you we we want you to start generating money from the platform before we start charging you anything.
00:51:14.159 --> 00:51:15.599
Like that's the goal, right?
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:20.239
And while we're in beta, that second client and beyond is just$20 a month.
00:51:20.480 --> 00:51:27.440
Well, if you have two clients at$20 a month, one of them's paying for your practice subscription, you know.
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:38.719
I I love the way you're thinking about this because I I think you you and I share it in general um a vision of really transforming the legal industry.
00:51:38.960 --> 00:51:48.000
And you know, my angle is you're very focused on this, you know, I think the subscription model and what that means and and why it's better for both the lawyers and the clients.
00:51:48.159 --> 00:51:49.519
And I share that view.
00:51:49.679 --> 00:51:57.679
And in and in a you know, my my angle comes more from well-being and then therefore incorporates a subscription in the tech.
00:51:58.239 --> 00:52:03.760
Um and uh, you know, to me, okay, great,$20 a month.
00:52:03.920 --> 00:52:05.519
That means more people can do it.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:14.639
The more people we can actually help develop uh, you know, careers that fit who they are, that feel better, that are sustainable, that work for them.
00:52:16.480 --> 00:52:20.079
You know, a million people, 20 bucks a month, that adds up.
00:52:20.639 --> 00:52:21.679
It it it does.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.679
And and even then, it's like like we're not trying to sign up a million lawyers, right?
00:52:25.840 --> 00:52:29.840
Like our target to hit revenue goals is 12% of the market, right?
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:31.760
Like, like that's really all we need.
00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:41.039
Yeah, but it it you know, the the point can be about, well, let's reach the people who want us and want to do it this way and otherwise couldn't, otherwise wouldn't know how.
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:42.320
And so let's help them out.
00:52:42.719 --> 00:52:52.639
And and look, I I think more players in this space the better, because then all of the marketing that we're all doing sort of helps just increase awareness that this is even an option, right?
00:52:52.880 --> 00:53:13.840
Like I I've had Fadoo on the podcast, I'd had Kim Bennett on the podcast once, and then I had her and her co-founder on the podcast as Fadoo, and I asked them, this was like years ago now, I was like, are you upset that Rally, which is now known as Spellbook, pivoted from helping law firms do subscriptions to a legal AI contract analysis and drafting tool.
00:53:14.320 --> 00:53:22.719
And they were like, Yeah, like we miss having competition because competition is like it just helps increase awareness, right?
00:53:22.880 --> 00:53:23.920
Like that's what it does.
00:53:24.079 --> 00:53:27.679
And it helps you bring out your best, like when there's competition.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:40.719
And look, there's you know, there's there's Nike, Adidas, you know, Puma, there's uh um, you know, Coke, Pepsi, and I think they bought all their competitors, but you know, there's like there's always room for at least two players, right?
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:46.800
Like Apple and Microsoft, you know, you know, Google and Amazon, you know, Amazon and uh and Walmart, right?
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.599
Like there's you know, there's you know, and then you've got your targets, right?
00:53:49.760 --> 00:54:01.280
And and as a as a as a law firm owner, I'm like, I want to be like the target or the Walmart, not necessarily at the scale, but at like the like, oh, it's a no-brainer to like go get your legal services at an affordable rate, right?
00:54:01.519 --> 00:54:24.559
So I think that there's huge market opportunity there for lawyers and also for providers of what I'm trying to do with Practice, and what Kim is trying to do with Vadoo, and whatever you know platform you're working on, if if subscriptions are part of it, what what the the what Gwen and um um Whitney Whitney are, you know, and Whitney's been on Lost Subscribe, but Gwen and Whitney are trying to do over at at Advos.
00:54:24.960 --> 00:54:27.519
Um, like I I have an abundance mindset.
00:54:27.599 --> 00:54:31.599
I think there's there's so much opportunity for all of us that the more of us doing it, I think the better.
00:54:31.920 --> 00:54:41.360
Oh yeah, and I think all of us knowing each other, the better, because we're we're all kind of moving in a in a the same, if not, you know, similar direction, and we just boost each other up.
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:43.920
So you're doing lots of things.
00:54:44.239 --> 00:54:56.400
How do you uh, you know, then the subscription model helps you to to kind of have more control over your time and and your energy, um, but you're also you it seems very clear that you love what you do.
00:54:56.480 --> 00:55:09.599
It's meaningful for you, and it can be very easy to uh have a, you know, for it to it can be hard to put hard stops when you're actually really into what you're doing in a different way than when you're just doing the bill of hour and you have to keep going.
00:55:09.760 --> 00:55:11.599
This just feels fun, and then you don't stop.
00:55:11.840 --> 00:55:16.320
So, how do you take care of yourself with all this excitement and activity?
00:55:16.800 --> 00:55:17.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:55:17.920 --> 00:55:19.599
Really excellent question.
00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.719
Um, I try to always get at least eight hours of sleep.
00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:32.320
Like, like when if my kid is like putting up a fight and like my wife and I are like having trouble getting her to sleep, like I'll I'm like when she's finally in her bed.
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:34.079
I mean, she's almost five, so she's good.
00:55:34.159 --> 00:55:36.320
Her delay tactics now are more like, read me another book.
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:38.400
And like, what do I not want to read my kid another book?
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:38.800
Right.
00:55:38.960 --> 00:55:42.480
Um, so you know, or I forgot the stuffy in the car, you know.
00:55:42.559 --> 00:55:46.320
Oh, okay, like you want me to go to the car to get the stuff you left that there on purpose.
00:55:46.480 --> 00:55:49.440
Um, I will like go to bed like right after her, right?
00:55:49.519 --> 00:55:52.480
So like nine o'clock at the latest that that kid's getting to bed.
00:55:52.639 --> 00:55:56.000
And even sometimes when we get her to bed at eight o'clock, I'm like, I'm going to sleep.
00:55:56.159 --> 00:55:56.400
Right.
00:55:56.480 --> 00:56:02.239
And so like I try I I some of my most productive hours are from like 8 p.m.
00:56:02.400 --> 00:56:03.039
to 11 a.m.
00:56:03.199 --> 00:56:04.559
or to 11 p.m.
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:12.480
But um but I just I really think just getting sleep is like one of the things that everything else depends on how much sleep did I get last night.
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:15.599
I drink buckets of water throughout the day.
00:56:15.760 --> 00:56:26.159
I mean, if folks are watching, I don't know if a video podcast is available, but like I've been like drinking like a you know 25 ounce water bottle here, and that's like my seventh one of the day at almost 4 p.m.
00:56:26.400 --> 00:56:27.280
central time, right?
00:56:27.440 --> 00:56:31.920
So like I'm I'm getting lots of sleep, I'm drinking a ton of water, which kind of makes everything else easier.
00:56:32.079 --> 00:56:35.199
And then with my schedule, I just I time block like crazy.
00:56:35.280 --> 00:56:39.039
I've standing meetings with clients, I've standing meetings with my technical co-founder.
00:56:39.119 --> 00:56:46.880
I I try to now what I do is I just sort of brain dump into a Google Doc, and then I have Gemini and or like my comet browser.
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:51.679
Comet's really good at Gemini is good at reorganizing my mind dump of things I need to do.
00:56:51.760 --> 00:56:58.239
And then I use comet browser to go in and be like, okay, now time block this on my calendar for me, right?
00:56:58.400 --> 00:57:02.079
And so time blocking is like crucial to controlling my time.
00:57:02.159 --> 00:57:13.440
And I only time block at the end of every day for my next day because I let my clients book time with me, not within a 24-hour period.
00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:19.840
And so I know at the end of every day, all my scheduled calls from clients will be booked already tomorrow.
00:57:20.000 --> 00:57:25.679
So now I can schedule the remaining open space with other things I need to get done.
00:57:25.920 --> 00:57:30.639
And so the time blocking of it all like cannot be understated how valuable it is.
00:57:30.800 --> 00:57:32.480
And look, I'm a company of one.
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:35.119
Like, do I always do exactly what I've time blocked?
00:57:35.360 --> 00:57:35.679
No.
00:57:36.159 --> 00:57:37.679
But I try to, right?
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.800
And like what I want is I want that AI accountability buddy.
00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:48.880
I want an email every day at the end of my day when I'm about to do my time blocking that says, hey, did you get all these, did you get all this stuff done today?
00:57:49.039 --> 00:57:54.880
And I could like click like I still want the things I still need to do, and then it will automatically time block the next day.
00:57:54.960 --> 00:57:58.320
So I'm seriously looking for like a well-designed time blocking tool.
00:57:58.400 --> 00:58:01.920
And if I wasn't already building a software solution, I would love something like that.
00:58:02.000 --> 00:58:04.320
And I've paid for some that said they do that, and none of them do that.
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:05.280
None of them do.
00:58:05.360 --> 00:58:15.519
And that's actually part of this like suite that we're building because uh I I use Morgan, which does that okay, but not to the extent that I want.
00:58:15.679 --> 00:58:20.800
Um, so if you haven't tried Morgan, you might it might give you a little of what you're looking, but not entirely.
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:24.079
And uh yeah, stay tuned because I feel the same.
00:58:24.719 --> 00:58:34.000
But here my advice is I think that somebody building just that tool will always build it better than somebody who's building a suite of tools.
00:58:38.320 --> 00:58:46.400
Because you only have so many hours in a day, and you can only develop so many products and make them so good so much and do iteration.
00:58:46.800 --> 00:59:01.679
What I have started to feel is that um there are so many pieces to running a business and also running a set of businesses, because my husband and I both have we've got a few things going on.
00:59:02.079 --> 00:59:16.079
And the more every the more each um each product can then fit into the next, not everyone's gonna need the next, but if you do need it, you want it to actually work smoothly.
00:59:16.880 --> 00:59:21.840
There is a product called Sweet Dash that does that does everything.
00:59:22.960 --> 00:59:24.800
And I've I I used it for years.
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:26.559
I still have some legacy clients on it.
00:59:27.280 --> 00:59:28.880
And it is so mediocre.
00:59:29.519 --> 00:59:31.840
It is just so mediocre because it does everything.
00:59:31.920 --> 00:59:36.159
But it does like if you want one thing to feed into the next, to feed into the next, to feed the next, it does it.
00:59:36.639 --> 00:59:38.239
And it's it's not expensive.
00:59:38.559 --> 00:59:41.519
And and you could turn on HIPAA compliant uh settings.
00:59:42.000 --> 00:59:57.360
And so just from what I've experienced as a uh consultant to legal tech companies over the last few years, too, is whenever you start to expand your product offerings, everything else starts to suffer and hurt.
00:59:57.599 --> 01:00:00.320
And so you focus, it's like the 80-20 principle, right?
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:04.320
It's like 20% of your product will offer 80% of the value.
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:09.280
So just develop that product and let the rest go away.
01:00:09.599 --> 01:00:14.639
Because there is another product that's going to do it better in the market than what you're doing, possibly.
01:00:14.800 --> 01:00:18.320
I mean, we we don't believe that we don't believe that product exists.
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:19.519
That's why we're starting Practi.
01:00:20.079 --> 01:00:24.719
But like Google and Microsoft offer calendarly comp uh uh features, right?
01:00:25.039 --> 01:00:28.639
A side of your your mic's called Microsoft Bookings and I think Google appointments.
01:00:28.800 --> 01:00:31.039
I've tried them, they are terrible.
01:00:31.280 --> 01:00:34.400
I mean, and I know they're terrible because I've used Calendly.
01:00:35.199 --> 01:00:37.920
And so that's just look, I mean, you do whatever you guys have to do.
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:45.039
I'm just saying I think if you're still early in development, pick, get some user feedback and see what's the most valuable thing that you're building.
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:50.000
And frankly, if you just build a time blocking tool that's better than Morgan, I would subscribe to that, right?
01:00:50.079 --> 01:00:51.119
I would at least give it a shot.
01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:52.480
I'll keep you posted.
01:00:52.559 --> 01:00:55.519
I mean, the value of the way we build is it's us.
01:00:55.760 --> 01:00:57.519
So, you know, we're not hiring anyone.
01:00:57.599 --> 01:00:59.199
It's my husband doing most of the build.
01:00:59.280 --> 01:01:03.199
And so, you know, it's as we identify, oh God, this is so annoying.
01:01:03.360 --> 01:01:04.239
What if it did it better?
01:01:04.320 --> 01:01:04.960
We play around.
01:01:05.039 --> 01:01:05.840
If it's good, it's good.
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:08.719
If it's not, we put it aside.
01:01:09.199 --> 01:01:09.679
Yeah, yeah.
01:01:09.760 --> 01:01:10.639
Well, uh, absolutely.
01:01:10.800 --> 01:01:14.400
And it sounds like you're early, which is the only reason why I'm even bringing it, I'm bringing it up.
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:14.639
Yeah.
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:21.199
It's really, and it's, you know, and look, for some of these things, if we find something better, again, we got plenty to do.
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:22.800
It's fun to do stuff.
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:26.880
And also, as you said about the mentoring, you learn as you go.
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:30.880
So if something we're building, we're like, oh, actually, we found something and it does exactly what we need.
01:01:31.039 --> 01:01:32.320
All right, let's stop what we're doing.
01:01:32.400 --> 01:01:33.440
We don't need to anymore.
01:01:33.679 --> 01:01:34.239
Fantastic.
01:01:34.400 --> 01:01:35.360
Let's move on.
01:01:35.599 --> 01:01:40.559
Um, anything, anything you want to cover that we haven't gotten to?
01:01:40.719 --> 01:01:56.320
Anything about your approach to subscription, anything about your your sort of well-being-oriented um practices that that keep you able to, you know, do this work and feel like you can do it in a sustainable way that continues to feel meaningful?
01:01:57.360 --> 01:02:07.760
Yeah, so I I intentionally choose subscription pricing and member benefits where my clients don't even think of me as the put-out fires lawyer.
01:02:08.239 --> 01:02:10.000
I do not want to be in that space.
01:02:10.079 --> 01:02:11.360
So I choose not to be.
01:02:11.920 --> 01:02:19.840
For lawyers who don't mind being in that space, I think subscription is still an option for you, but charge a premium for something like that.
01:02:20.559 --> 01:02:27.280
Like I think if clients want to be able to call you or text you and you pick up your phone every time, I don't even offer that premium of subscription.
01:02:27.440 --> 01:02:31.920
I could, I have clients who would pay me for that, but I don't want to deal with that.
01:02:32.159 --> 01:02:32.480
Okay.
01:02:32.880 --> 01:02:36.960
So I choose to forego that revenue to forego that stress.
01:02:37.679 --> 01:02:47.679
But for lawyers, that they that doesn't empty their cup, that fills their cup, then just make sure you're charging the right monthly price for that.
01:02:48.559 --> 01:03:02.480
I love your point about that, because the the way I hear that is you're very aware of how you operate best as a human, what stresses you, what energizes you, what drains you, and how do you want your practice to look, and how do you want your engagements with your clients to look.
01:03:02.639 --> 01:03:08.719
And I think, you know, law school doesn't teach lawyers to think about those things, but it's so critical.
01:03:08.880 --> 01:03:12.400
And everyone's, you know, you can have a bunch of people doing the same subscription model.
01:03:12.480 --> 01:03:16.719
And I know you mentioned you've got a bunch of people who have just copied exactly what you do, which is amazing.
01:03:16.880 --> 01:03:23.599
But there's so many versions of it that can work for you depending on your practice area and the kind of clients that you want to work with.
01:03:23.920 --> 01:03:30.000
And first you got to tune into yourself and and recognize, you know, how do I want my days to look?
01:03:30.079 --> 01:03:31.280
How do I want my year to look?
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:33.440
How do I want my relationships to look?
01:03:33.599 --> 01:03:34.960
And and then go from there.
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:38.719
So that's I think that's really, really valuable insight.
01:03:39.119 --> 01:03:42.480
Yeah, and then if people want to reach out, uh LinkedIn's the best way to get in touch.
01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:44.559
That's where we uh connected for the pod.
01:03:44.800 --> 01:03:50.320
And so um, yeah, Matthew Kerbis or search the subscription attorney on LinkedIn and folks should find and follow me there.
01:03:50.719 --> 01:03:51.360
Amazing.
01:03:51.519 --> 01:03:52.559
Thank you so much.
01:03:52.719 --> 01:03:56.880
Thank you for taking the time to hang out with me and and have this conversation.
01:03:56.960 --> 01:04:03.119
And I'm I'm really excited to stay in touch and uh check out practic what is it called?
01:04:03.519 --> 01:04:03.920
Practi.
01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:10.000
Practi, check out practi, and uh yeah, and just to keep in touch and and support each other.
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:10.559
Amazing.
01:04:11.119 --> 01:04:11.599
Sounds good.
01:04:11.760 --> 01:04:12.800
Thanks so much for having me.
01:04:13.199 --> 01:04:14.239
Thanks so much.
01:04:15.119 --> 01:04:16.079
Thanks for listening.
01:04:16.239 --> 01:04:24.559
I hope you got a ton of value from this conversation, and that you will check out the links in the description to learn more about the guest and the wellness esquire.
01:04:24.719 --> 01:04:28.320
And I hope you take even just one minute to do something for yourself today.
01:04:28.639 --> 01:04:29.440
Maybe right now.
01:04:29.599 --> 01:04:37.440
Drink more water, say no, call a friend, do something that makes you happy, have a 30 second dance party, find something to make you happy.
01:04:37.760 --> 01:04:41.199
Also, be sure to subscribe and send the podcast to a colleague.
01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:44.639
And if we're not yet connected on LinkedIn, please fix that.
01:04:44.719 --> 01:04:45.599
I'd love to know you.
01:04:46.159 --> 01:04:47.119
See you next time.