Weekly Scrap #364 – Benjamin Martin: Intoxicated Leadership

WEBVTT
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Where like it matters what I say and how I say it.
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Your mom taught you that, right?
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So being thoughtful, being prepared, and not just shooting off the hip with someone when it's a serious moment.
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Um, and not trying to tell people how they feel.
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That's a big one.
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You know, this is no big deal, Coralie.
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That doesn't matter.
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Like it's little stuff like that that we're real sensitive to, whether we want to want to pretend we're big, bad boys and girls.
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Like it we revert to childlike behavior really quickly.
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And you know that if you've ever worked in Firehouse, right?
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Sat around a kitchen table.
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Firehouse Vigilance presents the weekly scrap, a podcast dedicated to the never-ending fight against complacency.
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Holy Moore, Firehouse Vigilance.
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It is weekly scrap number 364.
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My guest tonight is Benjamin Martin.
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Very recently retired.
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After more than 23 years in the fire service, he is Embrace the Resistance and a class I have thoroughly enjoyed.
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Intoxicated leadership.
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Ben loves to challenge the assumptions we've inherited about leadership, and it is his passion, helping firefighters recognize the hidden forces that shape culture, leadership, and performance.
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And that is a conversation we're gonna dive into this evening.
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It is his fourth time to come on the scrap.
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Welcome back, my brother.
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I'm I'm excited.
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Welcome back, Benjamin Martin, back for episode number 364.
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Welcome to the scrap.
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Dude, let's do this.
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I'm I'm psyched.
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One away from that green jacket.
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Um let's do this.
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I love it.
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Anything uh you want to add to the intro?
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Because I mean, there's so much to say, so much you've done.
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It's hard to condense it down, and I just try to keep it short and sweet.
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But anything you want to throw at the audience that they they they need to know?
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Uh no, I'd rather let my talk do the walking.
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Uh, bios are very indulgent, so we'll go that way.
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Fair enough.
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Audience, get your questions primed and ready.
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I know they're already flying in.
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Uh, get them ready for Benjamin and myself.
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It's going to have, we are going to have some fun with everything we're going to discuss.
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So, with all that being said, we will do the sponsors.
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We will get to the scrap.
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And right out the gate, brand new sponsor, UL Research Institutes, Fire Safety Research Institute.
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Anytime, anywhere.
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Head to fsri.org slash weekly scrap to get started.
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Fsri.org slash weekly scrap.
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Go there, check it out.
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Unbelievable resource, and every fire department out there needs to be taking advantage of it.
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And of course, the Vigilantes.
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If you're not a part of the Vigilantes, then you're not a part of the Vigilante Codex Project.
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I love each and every one of them.
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Thank you so much.
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And that means we're on to the scrap.
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Every week I send out an email saying, what do you want to talk about to my guest?
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And I know what Ben's Lane is, I know what his wheelhouse is.
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I know what we're going to discuss.
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But every time he sends back a list that is comprehensive and stuff that I'm dying to dig into.
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And the very first one, right out the gate, is he said, rethinking leadership.
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Why leaders shouldn't eat last.
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And I was like, wait a second, what's he talking about?
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So Ben, that's your lead-in.
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Go.
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Maybe.
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Hold on.
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We lost your audio, Ben.
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How about now?
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We got you back.
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Okay.
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Welcome back.
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Did you get the question?
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No, uh uh hit it, hit me with it.
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It is rethinking leadership, why leaders shouldn't always eat last.
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Everything about uh what you sent me in the topics, I kind of gave a preamble to that and said, This one has me very intrigued, and so go.
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And that's what I said was go.
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And then yeah, that's where and that's where we're at.
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So and then I was like, all right, I'm leaving.
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I'm leaving perfect.
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Um, so I'll start this up with a story.
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So when I was a younger firefighter, I worked at a two-company house.
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Um, we had two officers.
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Let's just say we had uh Scooter and we had Jason.
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Um, Jason was a truck company lieutenant and he'd been in the military.
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And I remember I would watch him in the kitchen, he'd let everybody go through.
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And uh the first probably few nights, he would make a big show out of letting everybody go.
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And when I asked him what that was about, he said leaders eat last.
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Uh, and he told me about his experience in the military, which is what they do.
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Um, and I watched Jason and I watched him for a good while.
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And what I came to realize was it it wasn't about him eating last because he cared about the guys.
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What he ended up doing was getting more food than all of us because he had learned from working with these guys for years, because I was the newest one, that they were mindful enough that they would leave enough for him.
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There was never a night where he didn't look up and go, hey, everybody get what they want.
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And then he would just crush that food and then take it all.
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And so what it came about was that, and and Simon Sneck writes about this in his book, is leaders are supposed to go first into the uncertainty, right?
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So if we're in the jungle and we don't know, we're not familiar with any of the food, and we got these bright red berries, and we have no idea if these things kill us or not.
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Leaders eat last, right?
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Or no, they go first.
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And so that's what Simon is talking about.
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And we've kind of distorted that with the idea of we've got this, uh, like we were talking earlier, this symbolic sacrifice, this performative leadership of like I'm doing this grand gesture.
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But the problem with Jason was that he didn't do any of the rest of his job, he didn't train, he let Scooter do that, he didn't do the reports, he didn't mentor the guys, like it was one big gesture in the trenches, so to speak, and then that was it.
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As a like as an opposite of that, let's talk about Scooter.
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So Scooter liked to play a game that was called uh screw your buddy.
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That's the PC version of that.
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And the way this worked is he'd set up a training scenario and he'd let the youngest tenured person go first, come up with a solution to do this.
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So maybe patient on the roof, and we got to get him off, right?
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So, you know, the rookie would pretty much fly the ladder almost every time, and then eventually it'd get more complex.
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We start setting up rope systems.
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Um, and the way it went is the person with the next most tenure would go second, and then eventually he would go last.
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And usually all the options that I knew of were almost always off the table.
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And he he would know something, and he was willing to sit and wait with the uncertainty of not knowing whether he was going to actually have the answer.
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Um, and that's that kind of uncertainty that I think that really is what leaders need to do is they need to carry that for folks.
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Like, what do we do next?
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It's the leader's job to be thinking about it.
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Like, what resources do we need?
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Um, it's nice when people get their hands dirty, but I I need them to be able to do their job.
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And if all they're doing is celebrating themselves with this grand gesture stuff, like it's not happening.
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So let me know what you think about about kicking that behave.
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No, absolutely the especially what you said about just performative, just just uh the motivation is all I'm always hesitant to assign motivation to people because uh to me that's a a road that can be tricky at times.
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Uh, you can look at the the results of what they do, but at the same time, it it's tricky.
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But what I do love about what you're saying is I think there's this rash of people standing around in firehouse kitchens holding their plates saying, I'm the leader, everybody eat last, everybody eat last.
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With actually no stake skin in the game or reason for understanding why they do it, other than I heard that they're supposed to do this.
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And yeah, firefighters, firefighters see absolutely right through that.
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You know, they they're not fooled by what do you what was the word you used, the sacrifice?
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The yeah, the symbolic sacrifice.
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Symbolic sacrifice, yes, you know, perfectly phrased.
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Yeah, I mean, like I said, Jason he never went hungry.
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There were there was no uncertainty.
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The guys were taking less through the line to make sure that he was taken care of and not the other way around.
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Um, and in that instance, he should have gone first and taken less.
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And one of my favorite books, uh, hands down, people I've I've answered this question many times Leaders Eat Last by Simon Sinek, one of my absolute favorite books, gets into the nerdy science of oxytocin, serotonin, and cortisol responses and all that kind of stuff that is behind why humans connect.
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And so I'm not downplaying the leaders eat last mantra that he is talking about in the sense that you said.
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But I I love what you said there about leaders have to go first into the uncertainty.
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Yeah.
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I mean, think about time you've ever sat around a table where somebody said something and you're looking like who's gonna be the first one to disagree?
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You know, who's gonna be the first one to risk getting upset?
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And then you you're hoping that senior uh firefighter, that officer, that leader is gonna be the one to go, I don't know.
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I don't like that that idea.
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And to be fair to Simon's book, it's the same thing, right?
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Simon would says in the book, like, I want people that are leading in uncertainty that have moral courage, is what he talks about, to actually do their job.
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Um, and he doesn't like big, showy, grand gestures, you know, like morale for the day, like today is the day we're gonna care, and then every other day.
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And it's just it's the stuff that you see come through emails and text messages, and you know, once in the blue moons.
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It's not the stuff that we build every day in the micro moments, you know, working with folks.
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Um, and I think that's what it means to, you know, leaders eat last.
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So yeah, you do, but you also need to go first.
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No, and and I think me and Candy talked about this either on the solo or on her on her scrap, or maybe both, which was the I don't was, I don't know the right word, perversion of servant leadership into what it's become or this it's it's turned into this uh uh and somewhat Jocko's extreme ownership, which I'm a huge fan of both servant leadership and extreme ownership.
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So I'm not downplaying, but over time they've morphed into this thing where the leader puts everything on their shoulders and says, Well, it's all my fault because I'm the leader, no bad teams, only bad leaders, you know.
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And and and instead of understanding the concepts behind it, the truths, I think truths is okay to use the the principles, the principles behind it, they abdicate the accountability and holding the standard because they just take it on themselves instead of saying, no, this is the what I need to hold you to, which is yeah.
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Uh so here's what's interesting to me about the extreme ownership stuff.
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I'm I'm sure somebody across 300 some episodes has talked about the fact that he led seals, the best of the best of the best of the best, you know, and not just the best of the best.
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Like, I mean, their their burn rate through you know that hell week is outrageous.
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And a lot of the guys on there have been through multiple times.
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And the rest of us are working with volunteers and people that are 400 pounds and don't want to be there and just collecting paycheck or just showing up to hang out because it's what they do on the weekend.
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So that parallel, I think, has been beat to death.
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So we'll talk about the other one.
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Let's say the fire doesn't go well, and I'm the company officer, and you messed up the throwing the ladder, you messed up stretching the hose, and we're sitting in the after action review, and I'm like, guys, it's it's my fault a hundred percent.
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Everybody else knows that's false.
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How's it make you feel?
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Because everyone's staring a hole in your head because they watched you trip in the yard trying to high shoulder that ladder and they watched the girth hitch, you know, pop off in the hose line.
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But I'm and instead of like letting you lean into the suck, which is like, I need to get better, I need to do this stuff, and there are people there that absolutely will go, all right, fine, it's Benjamin's fault.
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And then they're not gonna do that.
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I mean, if you talk to most people about accountability and responsibility, they're gonna argue with you about what happened, why it happened, what it means, who's accountable, who's responsible.
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Like, we're always looking for a pair of feet to lay this blame at.
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So, why would you make that even harder by saying, Yeah, I'll own this a hundred percent?
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So I'll talk about like my default is 51%.
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Like, if I'm exerting influence and I'm making decisions and that's what I'm doing as a leader, I'll I will by default own 51 and we can explore what happened, why it happened, what my thoughts were.
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And at the end of the day, it might be 100% and it might be 1%, but it's never zero percent.
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Because if I'm influencing you guys like in and out every day, and I'm gonna go, you know what, my hands are completely clean of this.
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I don't, I'm not buying that.
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So I don't think extreme ownership really, really holds up.
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And I think he talks about it in his second book.
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No, he talks about it quite a bit.
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No, no, the dichotomy.
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He walks about, yeah.
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But it sounds like and no, and the principle is solid in in in one, but there there's I think it's been taken in one aspect, which is you know, back to your example of the of the poorly thrown ladder and the and the uh hose line.
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If there is no accountability on that and you put it all on your shoulders, then it is a hundred percent your fault the next time it occurs because you allowed that to be the nor new norm and you set that bar at zero, and now that is on you.
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And so I do think that does apply if you allow it to continue, either by abdication or by uh misapplying what I think you know, taking too much on your shoulders.
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And I think a better way that we can say this, if we're gonna redefine it right now, so extreme ownership for me is it begins where your job responsibility ends, right?
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So what you get paid to do, what your description says, the basics, the fundamentals, like you're paid for that.
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That's your job.
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Do your job, right?
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When you go above and beyond, like when you're doing stuff outside your lane, outside your scope for people that don't necessarily report to you, you know, you're answering the phones weekends, nights, and you're given a shit.
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Like that's a lot of that stuff's not in your job description.
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Uh, they actually call it job crafting and extra roles where people are doing uh pro social behaviors, like they're carrying the organization.
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I mean, it doesn't take long to look around and go, that person's doing more than their job.
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That's extreme ownership.
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Like, so where their responsibility ends and they keep going, that's the extreme ownership piece for me.
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That's that extra 10%.
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And you unfortunately, statistically, it's gonna be like a small percentage of the organization.
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So that's the stuff we need to nurture and create conditions for that more people want to do that stuff.
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No, I absolutely love it, absolutely love it, and people are already uh chiming in and kicking even more stuff to us.
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So I want to get to the uh questions right now.
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Give me one second, see if uh yeah, all right, coming at you from the hump man himself, one of the best at sending questions to the weekly scrap.
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We've got whoa, sorry, I'm on the road, so sometimes the computer doesn't want to comply.
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I'm sorry.
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This one's I'm going to Dennis Riley's question right now because I really like leaving this one off, coming off what we're talking about.
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:53.600
Because he says, a question for Ben any suggestions to help someone become a deep thinker?
00:15:53.840 --> 00:16:00.960
So if you want uh who can look at all sides of an issue and form an opinion that might not be popular.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:05.360
So I like I like that out of the out of the uh a different direction, right out the gate.
00:16:05.440 --> 00:16:06.639
So I wanted to throw that at you.
00:16:06.879 --> 00:16:10.159
Yep, and no surprise a guy like Dennis comes up with a question like that.
00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:16.799
Um, so I would say like probably the most important thing you can have is this idea of intellectual humility.
00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:23.519
So I think the best leaders don't fear being wrong, they fear staying wrong.
00:16:23.759 --> 00:16:30.320
So like as soon as I think I know something, as soon as I have that certainty that we talked about, I like it's a risk to me.
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:32.240
And I'm trying to prove myself wrong.
00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:34.000
That's where the training steps up.
00:16:34.159 --> 00:16:40.960
Like, we I can't remember the number of times on the engine company where after we were successful, we would engineer like failure.
00:16:41.120 --> 00:16:51.840
Like, hey, let's pretend somebody tripped and fell off the engine, or like let's purposely knock the hose line off, or let's disconnect the nozzle and pull the cross lay and like try to catch up from all those mistakes.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:57.120
Um, so we were always trying to prove our experience was still the experience we needed and challenge that piece.
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:03.200
So for the deep thinking piece, like, I mean, there's really four areas that I look at if you want to get technical.
00:17:03.360 --> 00:17:04.720
So the the first thing is me.
00:17:04.880 --> 00:17:06.720
Like, that's the extreme ownership piece.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:08.720
Like, so am I in the right headspace?
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:09.920
Am I do I have the right knowledge?
00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:11.119
Am I doing the right thing?
00:17:11.200 --> 00:17:13.920
And my values, my ethics, like all that stuff in the room.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.839
Like, it's hard to lead other people when you can't lead yourself, right?
00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:22.480
So if my life is a dumpster fire, if I'm a dumpster fire, like that's the first thing.
00:17:22.559 --> 00:17:28.799
Um, and I emphasize that because you're certainly carrying around a lot of like emotions yours and theirs.
00:17:28.960 --> 00:17:52.480
And I've made the mistake of allowing some of the moment to hit the guys and the girls, where like I truly was, and it wasn't like out of fire, like it was just hearing bad news that was like another stupid decision from headquarters that you're just like, son of a bitch, you know, and you're thinking out loud about how you're gonna make this work, and they can see it on your face, and even if you say, Hey, we'll figure this out, it's already landed.
00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:55.599
So it's it's that kind of stuff of just checking on yourself first.
00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:03.279
Um, and then it's being aware of a lot of the stuff I teach in the toxicity leadership class, it's that interpersonal piece where like it matters what I say and how I say it.
00:18:03.440 --> 00:18:05.119
Your mom taught you that, right?
00:18:05.200 --> 00:18:12.799
So being thoughtful, being prepared, and not just shooting off the hip with someone when it's a serious moment, um, and not trying to tell people how they feel.
00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:13.519
That's a big one.
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:15.440
You know, this is no big deal, Coralate.
00:18:15.519 --> 00:18:16.240
That doesn't matter.
00:18:16.319 --> 00:18:25.279
Like it's little stuff like that that we're real sensitive to, whether we want to want to pretend we're big, bad boys and girls, like it we revert to to childlike behavior really quickly.
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.200
And you know that if you've ever worked in a firehouse, right?
00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:28.640
Sat around a kitchen table.
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:32.240
Um, a big piece that I think I hear a lot is culture, right?
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:34.559
So culture is like this is what we do here.
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.559
So you got to evaluate what you know and what you're doing against that lens.
00:18:38.640 --> 00:18:43.519
Uh, because the right behavior and the right thing can be wrong in the wrong culture.
00:18:43.599 --> 00:18:48.000
Um, and so that always stands out and that always influences the assumptions piece about why you're doing what you're doing.
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:51.119
Uh and the last piece is uh a systems piece.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:59.119
Um, Jason Holliman's been writing about this a lot, and like it's only been around since the 90s when we like books have been written about it, and it's a huge, huge thing.
00:18:59.279 --> 00:19:12.559
And it's basically is as the world gets more complex, you have to have an understanding, and this really applies to headquarters that when you do something, there are ripple effects, and not just ripple effects, but ripple effects on ripple effects.
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:18.319
And then after the ripple effects on ripple effects happen, people are gonna go, okay, well, that happened.
00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:19.119
Now what do we do?
00:19:19.279 --> 00:19:25.680
And so many times you've seen it where like a policy gets changed, and people go, This is stupid, and they do something else completely.
00:19:25.759 --> 00:19:27.839
And they that's called the workaround, right?
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:30.240
Um, we joke about it being called a desired path.
00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:35.119
Like you can be a city planner, you can lay out all these beautiful sidewalks, and what do you see?
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:40.640
Like pass through the grass because people take the shortest route, they take the most efficient route, and those are shortcuts.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:46.960
Um, and so many times changes in an organization try to help something and then they end up breaking something else.
00:19:47.200 --> 00:20:03.279
And um, when you try to manage a fire department like you do a fire ground, where everybody admits what's on fire, everybody admits what the priorities are, everybody even knows the benchmarks, and here's a big one everyone's trained to do their job, which is not most headquarters, it's not most fire departments.
00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:05.119
Uh, we don't do a good job there.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:11.680
Then things like politics and agenda and bias show up, and it makes it hard for you to tell somebody what you know.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:17.359
So that goes back to that idea of like, you know, don't risk being wrong, risk staying wrong.
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:24.319
Like, and that intellectual humility piece is like uh I'm today, I'm gonna try to, you know, what my angelo, know better, do better.
00:20:24.480 --> 00:20:25.839
It's it's that kind of thing.
00:20:26.079 --> 00:20:28.160
Right on, no, so much.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:33.200
I wanted to interrupt along the the rant because there's some things I wanted to dig into and give examples.
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:42.480
Uh, the culture piece, A, B, the it no, it doesn't matter the intended consequences if you don't evaluate the second, third order consequences, unintended.
00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.200
Um, yes, yes, yeah.
00:20:45.519 --> 00:20:48.880
And why does it seem that the feedback loop is?
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:59.759
I don't know if this is I don't want to say especially true in the fire service, but I want to say that because I feel like it's especially true in the fire service, but it may just be my personal experiences, my biases uh sinking in.
00:21:00.079 --> 00:21:05.119
But why does it seem like the feedback loop is just so uh undesired?
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:10.400
Is that is that a misconception by me or is that is that uh just played right back to that ego bit?
00:21:13.680 --> 00:21:14.720
Mike check.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:17.279
Oh, we lost you.
00:21:17.440 --> 00:21:18.079
Oh, you're ready.
00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:18.640
You got it?
00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:20.079
I got you back.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:22.240
Um, so I did hear your question.
00:21:22.400 --> 00:21:25.680
So talking about feedback, it's it's complicated.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.440
That's like that's the the big thing.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:33.279
So why some people here don't hear feedback the the way they want to hear it, and why some people are willing to do it.
00:21:33.359 --> 00:21:46.559
Um, I think the easiest way that I try to tell people are you know pretend that you have information that I need and I'm in the club and I've got bouncers on the outside, and you're not on the guest list, right?
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:55.359
Only the VIPs, only my deputies, only you know, certain ranks, certain experience levels who I personally might believe are good firefighters and not, right?
00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.759
And so when you show up, you've got this mission critical stuff, like you know, you're right close.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:03.759
To the fire that this thing's affecting, you're not on the list, you're not getting in.
00:22:04.079 --> 00:22:06.960
And like that's cognitive dissonance, right?
00:22:07.039 --> 00:22:12.480
Like, I'm I'm not gonna hear what you're gonna have to say because it's like you were never even there.
00:22:12.799 --> 00:22:24.640
Um, but then let's say that you actually find a back door into this club, you know, like maybe you caught me in a hallway of headquarters, or I stopped at a station, like or you sent me whatever it is, like you found a way to give me this information.
00:22:24.799 --> 00:22:29.119
Uh, so now you've got this thing that uh it's called bias confirmation.
00:22:29.359 --> 00:22:35.279
And it's like, yeah, I heard you, but it's almost like I'm wearing noise-canceling headphones because it's not what I believe.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:39.839
And just the idea that it could be different than what I believe is automatically wrong.
00:22:39.920 --> 00:22:42.400
Uh, it's a little bit of Emperor's New Clothes, if you remember that.
00:22:42.880 --> 00:22:43.039
Yes.
00:22:43.200 --> 00:22:45.519
Oh, yeah, it's one of my favorites for yeah, right.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:23:05.200
So yes, yes, you know, for those not familiar, like the king paid this fee to this tailor, the tailor stole the money, pretended he made him clothes, and convinced the king that he was wearing clothes when he was naked, and the king's marching through the streets, and everyone's lauding the these clothes, and then a child is the one who goes, Oh, he's naked, and then everybody else goes, He is naked.
00:23:05.359 --> 00:23:10.400
And uh, there are lots of firefighters who are those children of like this is a bad plan.
00:23:10.559 --> 00:23:13.279
Um, and so that's that's difficult, you know.
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:24.400
And and I want to say, because Hans Christian, the the Emperor's news clothes, Hans Christian Anderson, one of my favorite leadership parallels, because my favorite part of that whole story is the kid at the end says, Hey, the king's naked.
00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:27.359
But one thing that people and and the kid points it out, right?
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:32.160
Because everybody else is if you if you're smart, that's the whole thing, is if you're smart, you can see the clothes.
00:23:32.240 --> 00:23:38.240
That's how this the scoundrel fooled everybody, and so everybody didn't want to admit they weren't smart, so they just pretended they could see the clothes.
00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:46.480
But the greatest part of that whole story is after the kid points it out, everybody stops and freezes and looks around, and then they carry on just like before.
00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:51.279
Like that and so that's the to me, that's the tragedy of the whole story.
00:23:51.599 --> 00:23:52.400
Yeah, yeah.
00:23:52.559 --> 00:24:01.519
Well, and maybe we get to it, maybe we don't like you know, I wrote an article for fire engineering, I'm waiting to come out that was called uh, you know, why your drive for excellence triggers resistance.
00:24:01.599 --> 00:24:15.519
And I came up with this idea of the high performance paradox where like, you know, excellence, and let's just say it's feedback, like your feedback, your your pursuit of excellence isn't at the end of the day, in my mind, punished for actually trying to make things better.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:22.559
What it is punished for is for what it reveals, you know, and sometimes excellence inspires and sometimes it exposes.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:24.160
And what does it expose?
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:31.119
Uh, things that people had agendas or biases and they hit, things that they were responsible for or accountable and didn't do.
00:24:31.279 --> 00:24:33.039
Um, where they stopped caring.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:40.400
Like that's a huge one, where they stopped giving, you know, and you're the bright light that's shown up and you you're casting light into darkness.
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:42.640
And a lot of times people don't like that.
00:24:42.720 --> 00:24:45.920
Um, now we could obviously talk about how you give feedback and the type of thing.
00:24:46.079 --> 00:24:49.759
And it's not just they don't just like it, they don't just dislike it.
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:57.039
It's uh I don't think that they can consciously admit that they don't like it.
00:24:57.119 --> 00:25:07.599
So then they they build up these, they don't even realize they're false narratives, they're defenses that fire to say why it's not true because they can't even accept what they're what what what's being exposed.
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:13.119
And that's oh yeah, and so you're up against this whole self-deception nightmare.
00:25:13.680 --> 00:25:14.079
Yeah.
00:25:14.319 --> 00:25:23.119
And I I think that like the job that you've got to do is you've got to try to carry yourself in a way where you're obviously not gonna get your way.
00:25:23.279 --> 00:25:31.839
And um, where I struggled early was, you know, if I disagreed with you, I was just gonna tell you and I was gonna say it how I was gonna say it, and you know, screw you if you didn't like it.
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.519
And that doesn't build relationships, it doesn't build influence, you know.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:42.400
And once I started working around people where I was like, you know what, they've got information I want and need, but I don't I don't enjoy being around them.
00:25:42.480 --> 00:25:48.559
Like I don't enjoy how they make me feel, they make me feel stupid, or like there's just no room for what I believe.
00:25:48.720 --> 00:25:52.079
I just stopped being around them, and I was like, man, I'm doing the same thing.
00:25:52.240 --> 00:25:54.880
So, you know, everybody deserves dignity.
00:25:55.039 --> 00:25:58.160
Everybody, like every asshole has a mother.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:26:00.240
So, like, that's somebody's child.
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:02.480
You need to be respectful in a way.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:07.359
Doesn't mean you can't disagree passionately, it just means that on the other end of that conversation, it's a human being.
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:12.079
Um, and if you carry yourself that way, then I think a lot of times people will allow you to circle back.
00:26:12.240 --> 00:26:14.640
And a lot of times you've got feedback ahead of the moment.
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:19.759
You know, sometimes it it lands and it's perfect, and sometimes the moment just hasn't come yet.
00:26:20.000 --> 00:26:28.240
And a lot of people who are really in this job are ahead of like they see the pattern to know it's gonna flash, and the other person doesn't.
00:26:28.319 --> 00:26:30.160
And it's there's only so much you can say.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:33.599
Um, and we could talk all day about that, but I'll let's move on.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:36.799
No, no, I get back to Hub's question now that I can see it.
00:26:36.960 --> 00:26:48.400
Hump's question was you often discuss emotional intelligence in the fire service, and you're one of the people that you're one of the I I feel like in the fire service, one of the tips of the spear when it came to emotional intelligence and its importance.
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:56.559
But how do you help firefighters see that it's not about being soft, but about becoming a better firefighter, officer, and teammate?
00:26:57.519 --> 00:26:58.960
Oh, yeah, that's a good one.
00:26:59.119 --> 00:27:03.039
Um, so the the big thing is there's lots of definitions of emotional intelligence.
00:27:03.119 --> 00:27:12.880
The one that that I'll use for this is uh it's just about your ability to regulate your own emotions and help others regulate theirs, help influence theirs, right?
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:16.240
So it's almost like the thermostat in a room.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:20.400
If it gets too hot, too much energy, too much negativity, you want to cool it off.
00:27:20.559 --> 00:27:26.319
But at the same time, if it gets too complacent, too cold, too disengaged, you got to kind of heat that up.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:29.599
And a thermostat chases that temperature all day.
00:27:29.759 --> 00:27:34.240
Um, and what's interesting about a thermostat now that I think about it is you can program that thing.
00:27:34.400 --> 00:27:38.160
Like once you have the habits and routines of your house, you can save some energy.
00:27:38.240 --> 00:27:39.359
Like, and you don't have to do that.
00:27:39.440 --> 00:27:46.160
And that's kind of what I think leaders do when they don't understand it is they're chasing things way too much instead of kind of letting them play out.
00:27:46.400 --> 00:27:50.160
So I think the the biggest thing you could do is just model it.
00:27:50.400 --> 00:27:59.440
Like I worked with uh an officer who if he held the coffee cup in his left hand in the morning, that was gonna be a bad day.
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:06.880
That was not the day that you challenged thing, it was not the day you asked to train, like it, whatever was going on in his personal life, it was just a bad day.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:13.119
Literally, if he was drinking with the right hand in the morning, all fun, laughable, like it was great.
00:28:13.359 --> 00:28:18.880
But the uncertainty of until you figured that out, and you had to remember it obviously in the moment too.
00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.559
But one day you could take him stuff that was small and he would chew your head off.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:28.480
The other day you could take him stuff that was big and he'd sit with you and be patient, and like people were fallible that way.
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:32.960
Uh, so the biggest thing is like you've got to go first there, you've got to model it, right?
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:38.640
So you're gonna have to do things that are unpopular, and it it very much is not about being soft.
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:55.119
Like, I we always talk about like accountability in the long term is always the kinder thing, always like unfortunately, a lot of times we we try to duck things because we think we're being kind and we're not like best case scenario, yeah, yeah, and we just can't do that.
00:28:55.200 --> 00:29:02.720
Um, so emotional intelligence is just about helping others to see, at least for me, that like you matter what you say and do here matters.
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:16.480
It matters to me, it matters to you, it matters to this team, it matters to this organization, and like the values on your shirt, the values on your patch, like that tells us how we do the mission, the mission is what we do, and how you do that, including the values and what you do.
00:29:16.640 --> 00:29:20.240
Like, I'm gonna hold you to that standard, but I go first, right?
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.559
And the intellectual humility piece of like, hey, call me out when I'm and give grace because I'm gonna have some bad days too.
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:30.160
Like, it's not about being perfect, it's about being prepared, like for those moments.
00:29:30.240 --> 00:29:30.480
I think.
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:31.200
I love that.
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:39.279
No, I love that, and I love the thermostat analogy, uh, constantly chasing the temp, the current temperature.
00:29:39.359 --> 00:29:43.039
That's that's the biggest thing because you have to be you have to be present to even know what the current temp.
00:29:43.359 --> 00:29:48.720
There's so many analogies you can draw from that and build the you can build a whole segment of a class based on that.
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:50.400
And leadership's about seasons.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:58.000
You don't think your organization doesn't have seasons of like when you're promoting a lot of people, when you have a lot of retirements, when rookie schools are in, like when morale is high and low.
00:29:58.079 --> 00:29:59.759
Like there are patterns all over the place.
00:30:00.000 --> 00:30:05.440
So when I walk into my house out of the winter, it's gonna be a little bit warmer than it would be in the summer, where I want it a little bit cooler.
00:30:05.599 --> 00:30:12.240
So a lot of times in the firehouse, you're also chasing the temperature of what's happening outside, you know.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:18.400
So when morale is low and everything is like, you know, real agitated outside, I want to cool it off inside.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.720
And at the same time, like I worked on the B shift, on the Bravo shift.
00:30:22.880 --> 00:30:28.160
And if it's like uh in Oklahoma, like it was here, man, it's like it's everything they say it is.
00:30:28.319 --> 00:30:31.119
And I was like, this is like third world country firefighting.
00:30:31.200 --> 00:30:33.440
I was like, I cannot believe you guys don't train.
00:30:33.599 --> 00:30:35.680
Like, I just could not believe it.
00:30:35.839 --> 00:30:41.359
Um, so that was cold outside, and I needed to heat up the firehouse a little bit and get people going.
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:43.839
And it's just again, it's chasing that kind of stuff.
00:30:43.920 --> 00:30:50.160
And uh oh, we'll see if he's coming back.
00:30:50.720 --> 00:31:03.039
They are having massive storms in the Virginia area, so we he we were warned of this before the show started that it may be and he's back.
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:05.440
He was probably making a great point, too.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.920
Probably the best point of the evening.
00:31:08.640 --> 00:31:09.839
Can you hear us, Piff?
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:10.640
Yeah, I got you.
00:31:10.720 --> 00:31:11.119
Can you hear me?
00:31:11.279 --> 00:31:12.160
Okay, okay, yeah, yeah.
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:13.200
I was making sure.
00:31:13.359 --> 00:31:16.000
Until you talked, I wasn't sure you were actually back.
00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:17.440
Starlink.
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:23.680
So the uh just to pull it back full circle, the uh emotional intelligence.
00:31:23.759 --> 00:31:28.559
I had a before the lockup, I had a great little bow to put on it, and and my squirrel brain struck.
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:29.359
So I'll let it go.
00:31:29.440 --> 00:31:32.000
And if I think of it, I'll go, oh, oh, oh, but never mind.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:35.440
I will move on to Kyle, man, uh Kyle Piverall.
00:31:36.240 --> 00:31:39.440
Why is it so hard for more people to give a shit?
00:31:39.680 --> 00:31:44.160
Why is the one doing more the outlier as opposed to the norm?
00:31:47.279 --> 00:31:57.119
So I to answer that question, I think excellence is not as much an outcome as it is a daily decision.
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:09.119
Like it is a daily decision that today you're gonna do more, like you're gonna be excellent, and it is work about like it's work, and not everybody wants to work, like surprise.
00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:19.680
And I say that as somebody that is all in on this job, and the majority of my conflict throughout like all my time in public safety was people who didn't give a shit.
00:32:19.839 --> 00:32:31.200
And uh it took me a long time to to have that emotional intelligence piece to actually let's put it this way um you know, water once come out of a hose line and it would prefer a nozzle not be there.
00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:32.160
Is it useful?
00:32:32.400 --> 00:32:32.880
Not at all.
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:34.000
Is it dangerous even?
00:32:34.160 --> 00:32:34.480
Yes.
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:38.720
And so the emotional intelligence piece is like that's the nozzle.
00:32:38.880 --> 00:32:47.039
That is putting a little bit of back pressure on what might come out, which is everything, and actually letting something come out which has some reach and penetration and purpose.
00:32:47.200 --> 00:32:49.039
And there's an on and off, imagine that, right?
00:32:49.119 --> 00:32:52.240
And it allows you to get in position where it's not just flowing the whole time.
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:55.359
It actually makes it easier to do your job if you think about it that way, right?
00:32:55.519 --> 00:32:57.119
And so that's the whole thing.
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:01.680
And so, like this idea of excellence, I mean, it's personal.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:10.000
And uh, you know, we've got these five questions at the end, and I don't want to jump ahead too far, but when I was thinking about it, um, you know, your decisions are your decisions.
00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:14.559
And I always try to tell young firefighters like, if you're waiting for somebody else, don't.
00:33:14.880 --> 00:33:19.200
And if your effort depends on what everybody else is doing, that's the wrong kind of motivation.
00:33:19.359 --> 00:33:23.839
Like your daily decisions, your habits, your routines, that's what builds excellence.
00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:25.680
And it's I mean, it's cliche, right?
00:33:25.759 --> 00:33:27.519
Like, the harder I work, the more luck I have.
00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:29.599
Like, that's the other way of saying that.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.480
Out excellence is not an outcome, it is a it is daily decisions, yeah.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.799
That's my daily decisions, and the Pareto principle, the 80-20, whatever you want to call it.
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:42.880
I love what you said in there that it's also the daily decisions are hard work.
00:33:43.119 --> 00:33:45.279
And yeah, and I I firmly believe this.
00:33:45.440 --> 00:33:47.359
The 80% don't like to work.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:48.880
That's why it's there.
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:53.680
I think that there uh 80-20.
00:33:53.759 --> 00:33:57.440
I don't even know if that's even fair to say there's 20% that were willing to do the work.
00:33:57.519 --> 00:34:04.079
I think that's a that's a i it folds in on itself, and I think you can get to the actual number uh at some point in there.
00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:13.599
But the point is, it's like how many people are out of the fire service or tuning in on a Tuesday night to be live and ask questions because that takes effort, that takes a commitment.
00:34:13.679 --> 00:34:18.159
And I'm not talking about just the scrap, I'm just talking about that as an example because that's what we're currently doing.
00:34:18.320 --> 00:34:19.679
It's it's rare.
00:34:19.840 --> 00:34:20.880
Yeah, it's rare.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.960
People who are willing to work is rare.
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:28.239
Yeah, so well, and and I would add this to uh for Kyle's question and anybody else that's listening.
00:34:28.400 --> 00:34:33.440
Um you know, when you if you look at somebody, like let me back up.
00:34:33.760 --> 00:34:40.559
When I was a rookie, I could not believe anybody that I came across with that had anything bad to say about this job.
00:34:40.800 --> 00:34:42.000
I mean, it just blew my mind.
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:48.480
Talk with somebody 20, 25 years in job, and like you would just hear the grievances, and it's just like, how could you not love this?
00:34:48.559 --> 00:34:55.039
They're paying us for this, or like, you know, like I used to be upset if I slept all night.
00:34:55.199 --> 00:35:02.480
You know, I worked at core companies the majority of my career running at least 10 to 15 to 20 calls a day because I hated sitting still.
00:35:02.639 --> 00:35:10.079
Um, but man, you kick the tires down the road for 20, 23 years, like some shit happens, right?
00:35:10.159 --> 00:35:13.360
Like I got some disappointments, like I got some grievances.
00:35:13.519 --> 00:35:21.519
I've been screwed over, like I've been kicked in the teeth, and like not all the things that I hoped for this job played out the way that they did.
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:28.159
So I started realizing that probably five or six years ago when I I started really maturing, and and kids help me with this too.
00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:33.760
It's like, oh, I I get the Tuesday night because they're they're not here on the scrap with us because they're putting the kids to bed.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.239
Sure.
00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:39.360
Or, you know, they're working overtime at the at the corehouse to make money to take the family on vacation.
00:35:39.440 --> 00:35:42.800
And you start seeing how life mixes with the career.
00:35:42.960 --> 00:35:58.480
Um, and I just say that, you know, because we're all carrying something, and uh some of the my favorite conversations and moments were actually when I when I learned to just listen to people who weren't as into the job as I did, because they could add a lot of value to the job.
00:35:58.639 --> 00:36:02.320
So we're all entitled to love the job a little bit differently, and that's not a bad thing.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:06.880
Um, but that like I'm happy for your excellence, and I and I hope you'll continue to pursue that daily.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:10.800
Daily, because it is hard work, and most people won't do it.
00:36:11.280 --> 00:36:12.960
Work is the solution.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:15.280
And I love what you said about cliches.
00:36:15.360 --> 00:36:17.039
Uh, it sounds cliche when you say it.
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:21.360
And I heard this the other day, uh, Chris Williamson, one of my favorite podcasters, I love listening to him.
00:36:21.440 --> 00:36:28.159
But he was doing an interview, and I don't remember if the guest or he said it, I don't remember, but it said you learn these life lessons in life as you grow older.
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:34.800
But when you try to explain them to someone who's younger, they just come out sounding like cliches, but it doesn't change their value, you know.
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:41.199
And I was like, I was like, holy, because it is, you know, sometimes yeah, I explain something to someone younger, and like, yeah, it's that's simple.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:46.880
Yeah, because we don't need uh revelation, we just we need reminders more than we need understanding.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:49.280
Most of us understand it, it's it's the reminder.
00:36:49.599 --> 00:36:49.920
Yeah.
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:55.760
So you know, it's it's like you know, your parents get smarter as you get older, even though they're not necessarily learning anything.
00:36:55.840 --> 00:36:58.480
Like, you're like, oh, that's why they I mean the same thing in the organization.
00:36:58.639 --> 00:37:00.880
Oh, that's why the lieutenant made that decision with the chief.
00:37:00.960 --> 00:37:12.480
Like, once you start seeing the constraints and the pressures and the limitations and stuff, like you start realizing that there's no answer to if only I was a fire chief, then I could do whatever I want because it doesn't happen.
00:37:12.639 --> 00:37:16.239
Um, and I think that's like that's important for what we're talking about.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.280
It is like a lot of times people doing the best they can.
00:37:19.440 --> 00:37:24.800
They really are, they're not bad people, they might be bad leaders, but they're not they're not necessarily bad people.
00:37:24.880 --> 00:37:28.639
Um, and that humility piece can be more than just intellectual.
00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:45.920
McGinn coming at you says, How can a newly promoted officer who holds the and he puts it in quotation marks, cheater bar of rank, but he recognizes humbly that they haven't mastered foundational leadership tools.
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:49.199
How do they build trust and avoid breaking the door?
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:56.239
So um, I think he's I think you're ahead of the curve because of asking a question like that.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:37:58.079
That is, yeah, that's a great point.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:37:59.760
So, yeah, let's talk about this.
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:00.800
Thank you for this question.
00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.519
Um, I talk about this intoxicated leadership.
00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:06.480
Leadership for me is is a is a tool.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:09.920
So I think about it very much like a halligabar.
00:38:10.320 --> 00:38:18.239
If you give someone rank, can they quite literally force open doors and opportunities for other people to walk through that were previously closed to them?
00:38:18.320 --> 00:38:19.519
And my answer is yes.
00:38:19.760 --> 00:38:31.679
Now that said, if you've ever watched a fire, whether it was training or real, does it become very quickly evident that the person working the tool has no idea what they're doing?
00:38:31.840 --> 00:38:35.920
You're like they're, you know, maybe if they gap the door, they're trying to set the tool and keep slipping.
00:38:36.079 --> 00:38:45.119
So now they're looking at the forks and they're trying to figure out bevel to the bevel to the frame, bevel to the door, and they're flipping it over and they keep setting the tool and it keeps slipping, and they they don't know their job, right?
00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:47.280
And it's the same thing is true for leadership, I believe.
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:55.360
Like, you know, a lot of times people will define it or they don't know how to define it, but we can all usually watch a behavior and go, that's not leadership.
00:38:55.760 --> 00:38:56.239
That's not it.
00:38:56.639 --> 00:38:58.719
Yeah, yeah, that is it's very visual, right?
00:38:58.800 --> 00:39:10.800
Like it's it's instantly recognizable, which going back to that first question is why I think a lot of this performative leadership is taking hold because people don't know what to do with the tool, so they're like, I've got the halligan, and they're just holding it.
00:39:10.960 --> 00:39:11.760
Nice now.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:16.480
Here's the problem with that culturally, in my fire department, you know who carries the halligan bar?
00:39:16.559 --> 00:39:18.239
You know who works that tool in the door?
00:39:18.480 --> 00:39:26.159
And I don't know how it is in Oklahoma or the majority of the fire departments across the United States, it ain't me, it's not the company officer, it's the rookie.
00:39:26.320 --> 00:39:29.119
I'm carrying some sort of axe or mall, right?
00:39:29.199 --> 00:39:30.800
I'm carrying the striking tool.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:37.840
And so I think when you're talking about having this cheater bar, like, you know, just think about you having the striking tool.
00:39:38.079 --> 00:39:45.679
Any opportunity, if that person, that firefighter can work that tool to get that door open for themselves, who gets the credit for that?
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:46.719
Who feels good for that?
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:49.199
Like that's like that's competence and credibility.
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:50.239
You want that.
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:59.280
No, that takes patience because if you've ever been on a fire where that person is struggling to get on the other side of whatever their problem is or force that door open, do we take the tool from them?
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:00.800
You know, do we micromanage?
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:01.599
Do we say I'll show you?
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:02.639
No, no, no.
00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:10.800
Um, and a lot of times what ends up happening is the leverage for that tool is far away.
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:15.679
It's the perspective, it's the idea of what seeing the force through the trees, right?
00:40:15.920 --> 00:40:27.440
And a lot of times when that tool would slip, people would try to put their hand and shove it in, and they get right up on the edge of that halligan bar, and then they try to force from there and they don't take the time to come back and see.
00:40:27.519 --> 00:40:39.519
And I think a lot of times, like good officers will come into the weeds, get some context, come out, work that tool, you know, and obviously there's only so much time on the fire ground, but how much time you got in the firehouse to let people work through their problems?
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:42.239
And it's not by themselves, right?
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:45.280
You're there, you're coaching, you're guiding, you're supporting.
00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:51.679
Because if you've ever tried to set a tool and you're looking around for the striking tool and nobody's there to help you, right?
00:40:51.920 --> 00:40:54.320
It's like that's the majority of our experiences, right?
00:40:54.400 --> 00:40:55.920
I've been disappointed by leadership a lot.
00:40:56.000 --> 00:40:59.039
It's like, where the hell is the striking tool to try to get this thing?
00:40:59.119 --> 00:41:00.559
Um, so I hope that makes sense.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:04.239
You know, think about leadership as a tool, but a different tool than the one you're talking about.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:10.400
Um, but you're where you need to be, you know, maximizing the leverage by putting your rank on top of the work they're already doing.
00:41:10.559 --> 00:41:12.239
That's how you force multiply.
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:13.119
No, I love it.
00:41:13.199 --> 00:41:20.559
I love the analogy, a lot of forcible entry analogies in that, in that from begin's question all the way through the answer, and beautiful, beautiful analogies.
00:41:20.719 --> 00:41:29.679
Uh, one of the things I loved what you said the most was right at the beginning, and you said the fact that you're asking that question, you know, is one of the best indicators that you're on the right track.
00:41:29.840 --> 00:41:36.800
Because I get questions like that so often, so often they're like, hey, I'm a newly promoted officer or I'm I'm new to this crew.
00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.119
How do I make sure I'm not that guy?
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:41.679
What do I need to do to be aware of?
00:41:41.840 --> 00:41:48.239
And I and you you just man, the fact that you're asking that question is one of the best indicators you could have.
00:41:48.320 --> 00:41:52.480
It's that red blinking light that lets you know you're at least you're at least aware.
00:41:52.719 --> 00:41:57.679
Yeah, well, and to put a bow on this, you know, I was making fun of B Shift.
00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:00.320
My introduction to B Shift was live fire exercises.
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:11.519
I'd been on the shift for about three weeks as a brand new company officer, and I watched a squad company fiddle fart around with the door for about 10 minutes, force one trip, 10 minutes.
00:42:11.599 --> 00:42:17.679
And we ended up stretching up a ladder to the second division, coming back down the division one because I was tired of waiting, right?
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:22.480
And three weeks later, we're going back up for the second rotation of live fire.
00:42:22.559 --> 00:42:24.159
And guess what's gonna be there, Corley?
00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:25.840
That door, right?
00:42:26.000 --> 00:42:27.679
And guess who got the door assignment?
00:42:27.760 --> 00:42:29.840
And you know damn well who's gonna get the door assignment, right?
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:31.760
Because we want to make sure that wasn't a fluke.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:38.960
Um, 12 minutes, 12-ish minutes, longer than the first time, same exact crew.
00:42:39.039 --> 00:42:42.000
And I remember I just I was floored.
00:42:42.079 --> 00:42:44.480
I was like, how could you not, after that embarrassment?
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:51.840
After that, yeah, why would every freaking day and work that tool until there was no way this door was gonna beat you?
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:53.920
And they just didn't.
00:42:54.000 --> 00:43:02.480
And so finally, what ended up coming up was another truck company walked up, they married two Halligan bars together, extending their leverage, and they were boom, boom.
00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:08.079
They had an outward door and an inward door set back to back, and they were through that thing in like both doors in two minutes.
00:43:08.239 --> 00:43:15.119
And it was that example, and everybody watching at peer pressure where that squad company the next Saturday was up there working on that door.
00:43:15.280 --> 00:43:20.079
They couldn't like they wouldn't do it for themselves, like they had to like just feel the shame of it.
00:43:20.159 --> 00:43:25.360
And a lot of times people walk around with gaps in their knowledge, but they don't have the shame yet that comes with failing.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:29.920
Uh, so again, the fact that you asked that question like means you're working the tool, so that's good.
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:41.119
Zashcraft says, What is your response to firemen that say you take this job too seriously when you're trying to promote a culture of do better?
00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:43.440
Yeah, maybe.
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:44.719
Maybe.
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:53.679
I uh so what's funny is um what's funny is so the this is how leadership development works, right?
00:43:53.760 --> 00:43:55.199
This is why you make no mistakes.
00:43:55.360 --> 00:44:03.440
Um, in my department, we actually had access to leadership development, uh, but you could Get to it until after you were promoted.
00:44:03.760 --> 00:44:09.440
So when I finally got promoted and I went and I did a like I did the disc assessment, right?
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:12.000
So, like, you know, how you work with others, how they see you.
00:44:12.159 --> 00:44:16.079
And I've got this civilian lady, uh, her name is Nancy, means a lot to me.
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:17.440
She's sitting there and we don't know each other.
00:44:17.599 --> 00:44:18.400
It's our first meeting, right?
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:21.440
So she's gonna be my mentor for like the next five years through this program.
00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:25.039
And she's got this report, and it is, I mean, it's it's robust.
00:44:25.199 --> 00:44:27.119
And she's looking at it, she's hemming and hawn.
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:32.400
And I'm like, Nancy, we don't know each other yet, but we're gonna just say what you need to say.
00:44:32.639 --> 00:44:34.400
And she goes, Okay, fine.
00:44:34.639 --> 00:44:37.519
Um, has anybody ever called you intense?
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:39.760
And I said, uh, yeah, maybe.
00:44:39.840 --> 00:44:42.320
She's like, has anybody ever told you that you care too much?
00:44:42.559 --> 00:44:43.920
Um, yes.
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:47.679
She's like, has anybody ever told you that you're wrong?
00:44:47.920 --> 00:44:50.639
And I was like, well, they're wrong if they said that, kind of jokingly.
00:44:50.800 --> 00:44:55.280
And right, and like I said, yeah, all of those things, Nancy, all of those things.
00:44:55.440 --> 00:44:57.280
And you know who asks that question all the time?
00:44:57.599 --> 00:44:57.920
Me.
00:44:58.320 --> 00:44:59.920
Every day, is this too much?
00:45:00.079 --> 00:45:00.800
Is it just right?
00:45:00.880 --> 00:45:02.400
It's like the Goldilocks and the porch.
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:04.320
Like, I'm just trying to find just right.
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:10.639
Um, and to answer your question, like, you know, what's too much for Corley and us here on this podcast?
00:45:10.880 --> 00:45:15.519
It's gonna be a freaking lot higher than somebody that's gonna be on the B shift, just kidding.
00:45:15.599 --> 00:45:17.440
It's gonna be, you know, that C and D player.
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:20.320
Like, it's just gonna be a little bit of effort where they're gonna say that's too much.
00:45:20.480 --> 00:45:26.239
So, right is right all the time, not some of the time, which doesn't mean that you don't yield.
00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:31.039
Because I can remember a Sunday where my crew was like, hey, we were up all night, Friday night.
00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:36.079
A lot of us went out Saturday, we didn't get a lot of sleep, we're tired, we trained all cycled.
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:37.599
Can we have some downtime?
00:45:37.840 --> 00:45:45.119
And I remember looking at him, the senior guy, and he's the one who went into the uncertainty first and uh and brought it up to me privately.
00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:47.280
I was like, Why would you not want to go train?
00:45:47.440 --> 00:45:49.519
It's a wonderful, it's beautiful day to go train outside.
00:45:49.599 --> 00:45:50.800
It's fall, let's go do it.
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:52.559
And I could feel the energy was off.
00:45:52.639 --> 00:45:56.559
And that was the last time that senior firefighter ever offered me that feedback.
00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:02.719
And I regret not yielding that, which doesn't mean I'm sacrificing my my values.
00:46:02.880 --> 00:46:15.199
Like the thing that I think we lose sight of a lot of times is we understand that conditions drive tactics on the fire ground, and we could do one of a million things, and we've got our defaults, but we can always pivot, we can always adjust based on what we're seeing.
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:15.599
Sure.
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:18.159
Why can't why can't you do that at the firehouse?
00:46:18.400 --> 00:46:21.360
You know, why can't today this be the default, this be the goal?
00:46:21.519 --> 00:46:26.960
And then you see your crews tired or you see that something's affecting them, and then you pivot, right?
00:46:27.199 --> 00:46:54.400
Um and the idea here is that nobody I'll say this way nobody likes a light shine in their face, especially if you're in the dark, like you know, when the call comes in, the bunkhouse would just blint like like like like like like like like like like like like like uh oh and he's back maybe possibly light shined in your face and go light shined in your face he's frozen again.
00:46:54.480 --> 00:46:55.199
Wait, no audio.
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:56.960
No, no, no audio.
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:04.159
Benjamin hates him like check one, two, monazu.
00:47:04.559 --> 00:47:04.960
You're back, dude.
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:08.719
You're back, check light shining in your face, light shining in your face.
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:09.440
Nobody likes it.
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:09.920
Go.
00:47:10.239 --> 00:47:10.960
They don't like it.
00:47:11.039 --> 00:47:12.239
What they do like is a lantern.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:15.760
A lantern is a soft light, a lantern is light that people can gather around.
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:17.920
It's portable, it can go where it needs to go.
00:47:18.079 --> 00:47:20.239
Um, and it usually serves a purpose.
00:47:20.400 --> 00:47:21.119
It's inviting.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:25.039
So people will come out of the darkness, you know, to actually see what's going on.
00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:26.800
And that's the way I try to lead training.
00:47:26.880 --> 00:47:28.400
That's the way I tried to have conversations.
00:47:28.480 --> 00:47:36.559
I could shine a light in your face, you know, you don't know what you're talking about, you're an idiot, you're a failure, set them up, have them fail, like doing a training drill.
00:47:36.719 --> 00:47:38.079
That's a flashlight, you know.
00:47:38.159 --> 00:47:41.920
And sometimes your example can be a flashlight without you realizing it, right?
00:47:42.000 --> 00:47:51.760
Because if you're showing people this idea of extreme ownership that I can do more, even though they're not paying me, then that is a threat to them because it shows that more can be done, right?
00:47:51.840 --> 00:47:56.559
And even if you're not inviting them, even if you're not ordering them to do it, they know that they could be doing more.
00:47:56.639 --> 00:47:58.079
And a lot of times they don't like how that feels.
00:47:58.159 --> 00:47:59.920
And that goes back to that cognitive dissonance.
00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:11.119
And it's easier for them to tell themselves that you're wrong, that you care too much, that you're too much into the job, than it is for them to say, maybe I'm not in the job enough, maybe I'm wrong.
00:48:11.199 --> 00:48:15.840
And so it it's that's the negotiation that we're having as leaders with communication that we've got to do.
00:48:16.000 --> 00:48:16.719
So I love it.
00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:17.920
Let me ask that helps.
00:48:18.079 --> 00:48:20.719
No, no, it's a great, it's a great, great point you made.
00:48:20.880 --> 00:48:29.519
And but what I want to ask you is this, because this is one of the struggles I had, which is the everything you said about adjusting yourselves to the tactics on the fire ground.
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:31.280
You need to adjust your tactics at the firehouse.
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:43.920
But one of the struggles I had was keeping remaining in my own life, remaining consistent, but also I want to remain consistent for them so they can they can know what the expectations are for the day, so they can have a set expectation.
00:48:44.320 --> 00:49:02.480
And the the struggle is when you start adjusting your tactics depending on, I don't want to say their mood or or their their their their current whatever's currently going on is you risk that erosion of the standard or whatever you want to call it.
00:49:02.559 --> 00:49:03.760
And so how do you balance that?
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.719
That's the balancing act that I seem to struggle with personally.
00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:11.039
Yeah, I think it goes back to to actually being very thoughtful.
00:49:11.199 --> 00:49:14.480
Um, that that throwing the pebble in the pond, right?
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:20.159
So, like if we cancel today's training or we cut today's training short, what does it cost for downstream?
00:49:20.239 --> 00:49:21.199
Like, what does it affect?
00:49:21.280 --> 00:49:29.119
Like, does it improve morale and buy-in, or does it you know, give them what they wanted, which is means they're just gonna ask for more of it next time, and then it's just gonna kind of drift.
00:49:29.280 --> 00:49:34.239
Um, so what you have to have an idea for is like, are we drifting or are we steering?
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:36.800
So one's intentional, one's unintentional.
00:49:36.960 --> 00:49:42.719
So if if I've listened to their concerns, and I always try to tell them my thinking too, like I don't hide the why and the why not.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:51.199
So, hey guys, I you know, I heard you say that you wanted like what I wish I would have said to that guy was you're right, you guys have earned you've earned this.
00:49:51.360 --> 00:49:56.400
I value the fact that every day, almost every day, I don't have to push you guys.
00:49:56.559 --> 00:49:58.960
You're already there, you're you're pulling your own weight.
00:49:59.119 --> 00:50:04.000
Um, I appreciate the fact that you came and you told me this because it matters what you think as a senior firefighter.
00:50:04.079 --> 00:50:09.119
I like the fact that the men and women feel comfortable going to you to be the mediator between this.
00:50:09.280 --> 00:50:14.559
Um, I want more of this because I'm sure there's other places where we could be steering this together to do it.
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:18.000
So, with that said, um, yeah, what do you want to do instead?
00:50:18.159 --> 00:50:20.079
Because we can do team building watching a movie.
00:50:20.239 --> 00:50:26.960
Now, if if that conversation happens on the Sunday and we haven't trained Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Monday, Friday, we're drifting.
00:50:27.119 --> 00:50:28.480
Like, and that's a different thing.
00:50:28.559 --> 00:50:35.280
Um, but I always like letting them know like this this is what I'm thinking uh and why I want this to go forward or not, you know.
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:39.199
And a lot of times we get we're we're getting better about the why.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:41.199
I think another Simon Seneck book, right?
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:42.239
Start with why.
00:50:42.400 --> 00:50:47.360
Um, but I don't think we give the why not enough to because every decision is a fork in the road.
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:47.599
Sure.
00:50:47.760 --> 00:50:52.639
So one way you can go, this is why we're going this way, this is why we're not going this way.
00:50:52.719 --> 00:50:55.119
Um, and it goes back to people working their own tools.
00:50:55.199 --> 00:50:58.000
Like I want them when they come to the next fork in the road, which guess what?
00:50:58.159 --> 00:50:59.119
Won't be a month from now.
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:01.519
It's probably gonna be an hour or sooner.
00:51:01.679 --> 00:51:10.000
I want them to have as much of the conversation in their head that I would have out loud if I as if I was there to help them make their own decision because that feels better.
00:51:10.079 --> 00:51:12.719
That's more autonomy, like that's more ownership piece of that.
00:51:12.800 --> 00:51:14.239
Um beautiful.
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:15.840
No, it's good stuff.
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:18.800
Hump come there's just questions and questions and questions.
00:51:18.880 --> 00:51:21.599
I love and and the depth that they're bringing out in your answers.
00:51:21.679 --> 00:51:22.400
I'm really loving.
00:51:22.480 --> 00:51:24.000
Uh Hump coming at you once again.
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:30.480
Jeremy Humphrey says, in your opinion, what's the biggest threat to a healthy firehouse culture today?
00:51:32.320 --> 00:51:38.960
I like these pick one answers because you know, yeah, uh I like I like the way your brain works on them.
00:51:39.760 --> 00:51:41.119
It's it's scary.
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:46.800
Um, I think uh it's something that I've started kind of calling the accountability trap.
00:51:47.039 --> 00:52:03.519
One of the nice things about being retired now, and uh and especially getting to teach with people like Mark Van Abney and Candace Ashby is like my mind is just going crazy because all these different perspectives are colliding and I'm I'm watching and listening and interacting, and then I have time, I have time to write.
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:12.000
So I was actually even thinking when you were talking about the questions, um, I'll do my best to go through the chat and try to write, even if it's just a couple paragraphs.
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:18.719
Uh I'll do my best to try to address all those over the next few months um and figure out a way to share those, whether it's on the embrace resistance page or on the new website.
00:52:18.880 --> 00:52:21.679
Um all right, so that said, what was the question?
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:25.280
Because I've completely I pulled up a mark, it happened to drift it here.
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:27.360
Um, accountability.
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:29.039
I can't, yeah, the one thing that causes it, right?
00:52:29.119 --> 00:52:29.679
The uh the drift.
00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:32.800
No, uh the biggest threat, biggest threat to a healthy firehouse culture.
00:52:32.880 --> 00:52:34.159
You said the accountability trap.
00:52:34.239 --> 00:52:34.480
Yes.
00:52:34.719 --> 00:52:35.840
So the accountability trap.
00:52:36.079 --> 00:52:43.039
Um, so it's hard being a leader because it's hard being unpopular and and risk being unliked.
00:52:43.119 --> 00:52:47.119
Like we all have the like it sucks getting picked last for kickball or dodgeball.
00:52:47.360 --> 00:52:49.039
Like we want to feel like we belong.
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:54.639
So when somebody does something, that's a behavior that drifts from the standard, what do you do?
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:55.119
Right?
00:52:55.280 --> 00:52:58.079
So now there's this this moment where like, are you gonna do something?
00:52:58.159 --> 00:52:59.440
You're gonna say something, and what are you gonna do?
00:52:59.519 --> 00:53:04.559
You're gonna coach, you're gonna counsel, like are you gonna delay and think about it?
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:06.000
And who knows?
00:53:06.159 --> 00:53:08.880
Like, the crew knows, and they're wondering the same thing.
00:53:08.960 --> 00:53:18.000
And whether you do or don't, and how you do what you do, that is what either reinforces or allows the culture to continue to drift.
00:53:18.079 --> 00:53:27.440
Um, the way I talk about it is imagine we're all rowing a boat and uh Corley's in the boat up front, and he starts standing up and acting the fool, and he threatens to tip over the boat.
00:53:27.599 --> 00:53:28.800
I'm in the back steering.
00:53:29.119 --> 00:53:34.400
So the rest of the crew that's on the team is gonna look to me to go, well, what are you gonna do about this check, you know, the jack leg?
00:53:34.639 --> 00:53:37.119
And if I don't do anything, what does that what does that do?
00:53:37.280 --> 00:53:37.599
Right?
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:42.800
And so the idea here is that I want a culture that tells Corley to sit his ass down.
00:53:42.960 --> 00:53:44.239
I don't even have to say anything.
00:53:44.480 --> 00:53:47.920
Even better, I've got Corley who knows not to stand up in the first place.
00:53:48.079 --> 00:54:02.400
But whatever that is, um the opportunity for leadership is you've got to have a conversation away that gets Corley sitting back down and puts the paddle back in his hand and gets him rowing and not rowing too hard or too slow with the boats kind of drifting all over the place.
00:54:02.639 --> 00:54:03.679
And that's work.
00:54:03.840 --> 00:54:11.360
And that's why a lot of times I don't think leaders do is we we get into this um this ambiguity of like, I really don't know what I should do here.
00:54:11.440 --> 00:54:13.679
And to be fair, do we give a lot of leadership training to people?
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:15.599
Do we give a lot of coaching and mentoring?
00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:20.480
Like when I started, the battalion chief didn't come by the station every day, even though I invited him, once a week.
00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:24.559
And now, to be fair, that was his way of showing respect if the company was running well.
00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:27.280
But the only time he showed up was when things weren't going well.
00:54:27.360 --> 00:54:29.760
And there were periods where he showed up a lot.
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:32.800
Um, and as soon as he did, people knew something was wrong.
00:54:32.880 --> 00:54:33.360
We were in trouble.
00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:34.559
Something's off.
00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:35.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:54:35.679 --> 00:54:45.199
Um, and it's not that everything needs to be addressed, there are things that are small, and the more that you do this job, the more you'll learn the small things versus the big things.
00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:58.559
Um, but the amount of work that you have to do, let's just say the rowing, if everybody's rowing, everybody's nitpicking the culture and maintaining it and preventing it from drifting, like the left side of the boat feels the boat start to drift to the left, so they know they need to paddle a little harder.
00:54:58.639 --> 00:55:02.000
And the right goes, ah, we'll slack a little bit, and that's what pulls it back.
00:55:02.239 --> 00:55:03.280
You don't have to do that.
00:55:03.440 --> 00:55:13.599
But if you have a young team, maybe you have a dysfunctional team and you have a team that doesn't want to, you know, work, then you're gonna have to paddle some and you're gonna have to change which side you paddle on, and that can be exhausting.
00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:19.760
Uh, but that's your job, that's why you're paid more, that's why you get the the the big bucks, as I'm sure everybody else got in their race, right?
00:55:20.000 --> 00:55:20.239
Right.
00:55:20.400 --> 00:55:23.280
Um but that's why we seek out that opportunity, right?
00:55:23.440 --> 00:55:28.400
Because we want people at the end of our time together to be better for us having been there.
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:31.199
You know, I think that's that's the goal.
00:55:31.840 --> 00:55:32.719
Oh, I love it, man.
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:33.840
I'm looking through the questions here.
00:55:33.920 --> 00:55:35.280
There's quite uh I love this one.
00:55:35.360 --> 00:55:37.119
Kyle Piverall coming back at you.
00:55:37.280 --> 00:55:44.079
So many good questions, but why is accountability and ownership considered a punishment in the fire service?
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:52.079
I think one of the reasons why that is, is, and I noticed this in our organization.
00:55:52.239 --> 00:55:59.280
If I'd sit in a meeting and something went wrong, it was really interesting to watch leaders try to hold people accountable.
00:55:59.519 --> 00:56:03.679
And that conversation would go, you know, for however long it went.
00:56:03.760 --> 00:56:09.679
And a lot of times, especially at a high level, it was, well, it wasn't my fault because of this, or it wasn't my fault because of that.
00:56:09.840 --> 00:56:14.480
And what they were doing was they were actually debating the responsibility of whatever it was.
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:18.000
And it sounds small, but we didn't have updated job descriptions.
00:56:18.159 --> 00:56:24.800
Like a lot of the positions outside of firefighter didn't actually have any onboarding or offboarding on the administrative side of stuff.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:27.119
They didn't have any career development.
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:32.559
I mean, we had career development, which was like you take some classes and we give you points, and that's your that's your money that you get.
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:38.000
But it wasn't like true, this is what we do here, this is culture-based, this is how like our department gets better.
00:56:38.159 --> 00:56:40.079
So we're going to train you for that kind of thing.
00:56:40.400 --> 00:56:48.400
So, with that, like a lot of times we're not necessarily debating accountability as much as we are responsibility.
00:56:48.559 --> 00:56:55.360
And if an organization has locked in pretty tightly, like this is what we expect from people, like we have this on the fire ground.
00:56:55.519 --> 00:57:04.159
Like the first engine in my department is responsible for water supply, it's responsible for establishing command and a mode and doing a 360 and giving an initial assignment.
00:57:04.320 --> 00:57:07.679
It's not responsible for everything else downstream of that, right?
00:57:07.920 --> 00:57:14.639
And we're resource-rich, so you're not going to have command of that for more than a few minutes, likely five, 10 minutes most.
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:19.920
Um, but administratively, like something would come up, whose problem is this?
00:57:20.079 --> 00:57:22.320
And then you have this that lack of systems thinking.
00:57:22.400 --> 00:57:24.239
Somebody breaks something and then it goes downstream.
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:32.239
So, really, is I think at the end of the day, it's just about like we're negotiating the responsibility of who is supposed to be doing what.
00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:38.000
And it's not fair because I either wasn't told or I didn't know, or it's changed and nobody told me.
00:57:38.079 --> 00:57:47.599
Um, and there's just so many outs because we're not maintaining the I would say the administrative competence that matches our operational competence.
00:57:47.679 --> 00:57:52.719
Uh, and if we did a better job there, I think you would probably see more accountability piece.
00:57:53.360 --> 00:57:56.079
No, that makes yeah, I love the I love the breakdown.
00:57:56.159 --> 00:58:00.000
Uh debating the responsibility because it hasn't been clearly defined.
00:58:00.239 --> 00:58:00.559
Yeah.
00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:02.800
Which I mean, to be fair, Terry, go ahead.
00:58:02.960 --> 00:58:03.199
Go ahead.
00:58:03.280 --> 00:58:03.760
No, no, no.
00:58:04.000 --> 00:58:10.639
The ambiguity of expectation is just I I it almost always seems to come back to that in some way, shape, or form, whether we're talking yeah.
00:58:10.880 --> 00:58:12.559
So uh yeah, I love it.
00:58:12.639 --> 00:58:13.920
I absolutely love the analysis.
00:58:14.159 --> 00:58:21.119
Yeah, well, I'll give you um a quick story that'll talk about systems thinking, but it also maybe it'll talk about this as well.
00:58:21.280 --> 00:58:34.719
I remember sitting in a meeting where I was listening to a deputy chief, Lambast, a company um that was in the part of the county that does rural water, and they had gone somewhere, I think it was to the store, and they didn't take their tanker, their tender.
00:58:34.880 --> 00:58:43.440
Um, and he's sitting in the meeting, like, hey, they know the expectation is that that tender tanker goes like wherever they are.
00:58:43.679 --> 00:58:48.800
And so a few minutes later, I'm sitting there and I'm like, hey, uh, let me ask you something.
00:58:48.960 --> 00:58:50.880
Do you have battalion chiefs, right?
00:58:51.039 --> 00:59:01.199
People in charge of multiple stations in charge of multiple company officers, you know, 40, 50, 60 men and women who have never worked in this part of the county, who have never had tender tanker training.
00:59:01.440 --> 00:59:02.159
Do you know that?
00:59:02.400 --> 00:59:05.119
Because you have the same thing as captains and lieutenants as well.
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:07.599
Obviously, you have firefighters that never worked in there.
00:59:07.760 --> 00:59:09.679
Where's the policy that says that?
00:59:10.000 --> 00:59:11.599
And I just stopped there.
00:59:11.920 --> 00:59:13.840
Well, I I have given expectations.
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:14.559
I'm like, when?
00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:16.480
10 years ago when you took the position?
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:18.400
Like, when did you give them?
00:59:18.559 --> 00:59:22.719
Uh and we went through a series of questions which he didn't particularly enjoy and nothing changed out of it.
00:59:22.800 --> 00:59:30.559
But what we ended up finding was it was ambiguity of like at one point, at some time, he did tell people, and then people moved and transferred.
00:59:30.639 --> 00:59:34.000
And now we have rookies that have to have a certain amount of driving hours.
00:59:34.159 --> 00:59:43.519
So, like when we drive away from the station, do you leave the uh tender tanker if you need to go up to the office to headquarters or you need to go to central automotive maintenance to get those driving hours?
00:59:43.679 --> 00:59:47.039
Or do you leave it so it can serve the district and another company will pick it up?
00:59:47.119 --> 00:59:50.320
Uh, where's the process that says that, the decision tree that guides me on that?
00:59:50.480 --> 01:00:02.719
And so I told him I'm like, hey, until you work all that out, which is your job, until you help them understand if this, then that, for little things, before the emergency even hits, um, then I'm not sure you can hold them accountable.
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:05.280
And that's a that's that's a good thing in your organization.
01:00:05.360 --> 01:00:08.960
Like, you don't want organizations trying to hold people accountable if they haven't written the rules of the game.
01:00:09.119 --> 01:00:12.239
Like, I can't imagine if you didn't know 10 yards was a first down in football.
01:00:12.400 --> 01:00:16.880
If that wasn't in the rule book, and so sometimes three yards was a first down, and sometimes 15 yards wasn't.
01:00:17.039 --> 01:00:20.559
Like that's how a lot of departments are running their accountability, and it obviously isn't fair.
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:26.719
Like, um, so I think that's probably the challenge, but that's also systems effects in there, too, right?
01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:39.440
We're gonna make these rookies drive so many hours on the tanker, and now we're taking these tankers outside of their assigned coverage because we need to get them like a 40-minute trip to the office is a great time to get an hour worth of driver training because we're gonna round up.
01:00:39.599 --> 01:00:43.920
We just need to think about the ripple effects on the ripple effects and then what people do around that kind of thing.
01:00:44.239 --> 01:00:45.119
No, absolutely.
01:00:45.280 --> 01:00:55.599
And and um the uh institutionalized learning, some of the stuff that's just it's always been there, but it's not like and you get this as you grow older in the organization.
01:00:55.679 --> 01:00:58.159
It's like, man, I was taught this by my captain when I got here.
01:00:58.320 --> 01:01:07.599
Of course, now it's 15 years ago, and I don't know why a new person who came on board would un would even know it, other than the fact that I expected him to know it because I did, you know?
01:01:07.679 --> 01:01:15.840
Yeah, and and and that that institutionalized learning just becomes uh again, a big, giant gray cloud of ambiguity.
01:01:16.000 --> 01:01:18.239
And then someone comes along and says, We need accountability.
01:01:18.400 --> 01:01:21.039
And so I think that's part of the reason why it gets a bad rap.
01:01:21.440 --> 01:01:22.880
Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:26.400
Like we want like accountability protects the standard.
01:01:26.559 --> 01:01:28.000
So who doesn't want that?
01:01:28.159 --> 01:01:33.440
Like, if you mess up, like you don't want your performance to affect everybody else.
01:01:34.000 --> 01:01:44.320
Like, imagine if I missed a hydrant uh on fire, ran out of water, couldn't put the fire out, and instead of holding me accountable, the command staff was like, you know what, then made a mistake.
01:01:44.480 --> 01:01:46.639
We don't really care if you guys catch hydrants anymore.
01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:49.119
And we're like, you know, if you do, that's great, but no big deal.
01:01:49.280 --> 01:01:51.360
And it's like, no, you hold his ass accountable.
01:01:51.440 --> 01:01:52.239
Like, I need that.
01:01:52.400 --> 01:01:58.079
Now I might not like it at the time, but that's the medicine, you know, and we all need medicine to grow up healthy.
01:01:58.320 --> 01:01:59.599
So that's what you got to do.
01:01:59.840 --> 01:02:05.920
And I think I high performers especially crave accountability, they crave uh knowing when they hit and knowing when they missed.
01:02:06.000 --> 01:02:06.800
I really do.
01:02:07.039 --> 01:02:10.880
So, but no, so many great questions, so many great points have been made.
01:02:10.960 --> 01:02:13.519
We've been at it over uh yeah, already over an hour.
01:02:13.599 --> 01:02:16.800
So I'm gonna transition to book or books that you think firefighters should be reading.
01:02:16.880 --> 01:02:17.920
What are your what are you?
01:02:18.000 --> 01:02:20.880
I don't want to ask what you're reading right now, but what do you think firefighters should read?
01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:24.159
It doesn't have to be firefighting books, but what do you think they should be reading?
01:02:24.639 --> 01:02:28.320
Um so if you haven't read John Norman's book, read John Norman's book.
01:02:28.400 --> 01:02:29.360
Like everybody should read that.
01:02:29.440 --> 01:02:29.840
I don't really care.
01:02:30.079 --> 01:02:32.320
You're talking about working with giants or handbook of tactics?
01:02:32.480 --> 01:02:34.400
I'm just oh sorry, handbook, handbook attack.
01:02:34.480 --> 01:02:41.280
Okay, like making sure I didn't know if you were referencing the new one or yeah, yeah, no, and yeah, and I'm sure it's fantastic.
01:02:41.360 --> 01:02:42.559
I haven't had a chance to read it.
01:02:42.639 --> 01:02:51.599
Um, like every day at uh when I was on the job, I tried to touch something tactical, uh, and I tried to touch something organizational, and I tried to touch something leadership.
01:02:51.679 --> 01:02:54.880
So the way I kind of looked at it was like, what's gonna make me better on the fire ground?
01:02:55.039 --> 01:02:57.199
What's gonna make me better on the firehouse or in the battalion?
01:02:57.280 --> 01:03:00.159
And then what's gonna help me understand the the bigger picture?
01:03:00.320 --> 01:03:03.599
So whether it was books or whether it was articles, like that was where my reading went.
01:03:03.679 --> 01:03:19.119
I tried to do at least an hour, and I mean you can see behind me, I I enjoy reading because for freaking 10 bucks, I can get a book like you know what you talked about, the that John Norman wrote, and I get 20, 30, 40 years of lived wisdom for 10 bucks.
01:03:19.199 --> 01:03:21.760
Socks, sock, sock, sock, sock, socks sock, sock, sock, socks sock.
01:03:22.000 --> 01:03:22.400
He's going.
01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:24.079
Oh, welcome back.
01:03:24.159 --> 01:03:24.880
Come on.
01:03:25.760 --> 01:03:26.960
And he's back.
01:03:28.239 --> 01:03:30.639
That was a nice max headroom that you did.
01:03:31.119 --> 01:03:33.440
I don't know if everybody got enjoyed that, or just me.
01:03:33.519 --> 01:03:34.159
Yeah, you're back.
01:03:34.239 --> 01:03:34.960
Come on.
01:03:35.280 --> 01:03:36.960
Sam is earning his keep tonight.
01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:37.920
Sorry, buddy.
01:03:38.079 --> 01:03:39.920
Um, you gotta keep him on a show.
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:43.599
Ben, that's what Ben's goal was tonight, was to keep Sam jumping.
01:03:43.920 --> 01:03:44.400
Yeah.
01:03:44.639 --> 01:03:54.320
So I I think uh, like if if you haven't read it, the one book that I'm just I can't say enough of um is Quiet Leadership by David Rock.
01:03:54.480 --> 01:04:02.559
And it he just like I this idea of rethinking leadership, he just challenges a lot of uh you know authority norms of like just do what I say because I said it.
01:04:02.719 --> 01:04:05.199
And it really tries to meet people where they are.
01:04:05.360 --> 01:04:09.679
Um, and if I told you like what it was about, you'd be like, there's no way I'm reading that.
01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:20.559
But I could tell you, like, when you combine this idea of like it matters how Corley feels after I leave a conversation with him, which doesn't mean a whole bunch of self-determination theory?
01:04:20.719 --> 01:04:22.880
Is it or is it has he moved past that or is it is it?
01:04:23.280 --> 01:04:27.599
Yeah, so so that's yeah, so that's in there because he's the same guy that wrote that.
01:04:27.760 --> 01:04:36.880
Um what he's doing is he's talking about how do we have a conversation where we move forward, where you don't instantly go, no, no, like I don't I don't want to talk about this.
01:04:37.039 --> 01:04:42.079
Like, and even if I don't put my hands up and you don't know that, I'm thinking it, I'm resisting what you're saying.
01:04:42.239 --> 01:04:47.199
Like it's an invitation to have this conversation away that you do leave with some ownership of what comes next.
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:47.599
Okay.
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:49.440
Uh so it's a real simple framework.
01:04:49.599 --> 01:04:51.519
It's you know, it's easy enough to do it.
01:04:51.679 --> 01:04:53.840
So, like, that's one that I I really love.
01:04:54.000 --> 01:04:55.840
Um, and that's quiet leadership.
01:04:56.000 --> 01:04:57.119
Yeah, quiet leadership.
01:04:57.199 --> 01:04:57.840
That's a good one.
01:04:58.000 --> 01:05:10.480
Now, if you are a battalion chief or a bob, if you're managing multiple teams, multiple departments, multiple stations, um then the uh it's Peter Sands' book, what's it, the fifth discipline?
01:05:10.719 --> 01:05:11.840
The fifth discipline.
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:18.159
It's uh about systems and it it shows you cause and effect of stuff and it talks about those first, second, third order effects.
01:05:18.320 --> 01:05:32.079
Um, it's not a book that you're gonna sit around and talk to your family about how much you're enjoying, but it is one that I absolutely could see you sitting around headquarters and going, shit, like okay, like now I'm starting to see some of some of these things.
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:36.159
Um, so that's those are the two that I would just leave people with if they haven't read on those.
01:05:36.400 --> 01:05:37.519
Right on, right on.
01:05:37.599 --> 01:05:38.159
Oh, I love it.
01:05:38.239 --> 01:05:45.119
I love I love the uh wide array that you you presented there.
01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:46.719
So absolutely love it.
01:05:46.880 --> 01:05:48.639
Which takes us to one of my favorite parts of the scrap.
01:05:48.719 --> 01:05:50.239
It is the five questions for firefighters.
01:05:50.320 --> 01:05:59.039
It's not the first time you've been exposed to this, and you get to answer them once more, some of them again, and but I always enjoy it.
01:05:59.119 --> 01:05:59.760
There is no right.
01:06:00.159 --> 01:06:04.320
Answer only your opinion, and your opinions are allowed to change over time.
01:06:04.480 --> 01:06:08.000
It's called growth and sometimes the opposite.
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:12.239
But uh, for the lack of that being said, there uh the points are arbitrary, passed out by me.
01:06:12.320 --> 01:06:16.719
So, Benjamin Martin, are you ready for the five questions for firefighters once again?
01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:17.679
Let's do it.
01:06:17.760 --> 01:06:18.880
Pending internet connection.
01:06:19.039 --> 01:06:19.599
Let's do it.
01:06:19.840 --> 01:06:25.440
All right, you have a time you have a time machine, but it can only be used for one thing.
01:06:25.599 --> 01:06:29.440
You can go back in time and give young Benjamin one piece of advice.
01:06:29.599 --> 01:06:31.119
What would that advice be?
01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:33.280
You know, it's funny.
01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:35.519
I think I ask this question every day.
01:06:35.679 --> 01:06:37.440
Um, because I've got two girls.
01:06:37.519 --> 01:06:42.320
You know, I've got Ayla who's getting ready to turn 15, and Camille who just turned 13.
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:48.480
Um, I mean, I and literally every day their mom and I are talking about like, what do we wish we knew?
01:06:48.639 --> 01:06:52.480
Like, how do we give them the leg up that every parent wants wants to give them?
01:06:52.639 --> 01:07:02.159
Um, and so when I was thinking about this question for the fire department, you know, instantly there's, oh man, there's so many mistakes, you know, tactical mistakes, personnel mistakes.
01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:06.639
Um, and I certainly would love to give a younger version of myself a heads up on that.
01:07:06.880 --> 01:07:17.199
But I think like the one thing that I centered on, and and I don't know if it's because I recently retired and I wasn't necessarily happy with you know a few years before I retired.
01:07:17.440 --> 01:07:31.840
Um, but I think if I could tell my younger self something, that I would say that it's okay that if something matters to you, that it doesn't necessarily matter as much to somebody else, which sounds super simple.
01:07:32.079 --> 01:07:36.239
Like investing in firefighters makes sense to me, so everybody should support that.
01:07:36.400 --> 01:07:38.239
Um leadership development matters to me.
01:07:38.320 --> 01:07:41.679
So low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low, low.
01:07:42.000 --> 01:07:42.559
And he's gone.
01:07:43.199 --> 01:07:43.920
He's back.
01:07:49.119 --> 01:07:50.320
He's fighting through it.
01:07:50.480 --> 01:07:51.440
We're almost there.
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:52.000
Go ahead.
01:07:53.760 --> 01:08:03.280
Um, I I would tell myself to be patient with people and and just know that like my path is my path, and it's gonna have highs and lows.
01:08:03.440 --> 01:08:05.760
Uh, and there's there's another side to it.
01:08:05.840 --> 01:08:07.760
Like, you'll come out on the other side.
01:08:07.840 --> 01:08:14.960
Um, whether I would change anything specifically or not, like who I am and what I've done is is a result of who I am and what I've done.
01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:16.720
Uh, and that's not necessarily a bad thing.
01:08:16.800 --> 01:08:19.520
And just to give him a little bit more confidence that it'll be okay.
01:08:19.760 --> 01:08:20.319
I love it.
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:20.800
I love it.
01:08:20.960 --> 01:08:21.279
Okay.
01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:23.840
Uh, max points out the gate.
01:08:24.000 --> 01:08:26.560
Number two, it's job town, it's time.
01:08:26.880 --> 01:08:32.720
That scene from backdraft where he slaps that cassette tape into that cassette deck for those who know what those things are.
01:08:32.960 --> 01:08:36.560
And uh what song are you playing while we're out?
01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:43.840
So I've got a tradition with Corley that every time I'm on, I always send it to him uh as his homework since he gives me some homework.
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:48.960
Uh so this time I I picked Shine Down Devil, uh, because that thing just hits hard.
01:08:49.119 --> 01:08:55.359
Um, like yeah, I mean it starts off hard and then it just it just stays hard throughout.
01:08:55.520 --> 01:09:11.119
So like uh it was actually the first year we had the Fireground Commander Conference, um, when I did the intro for the whole three-day event, that was a song that was playing in the background, um, where I was you know stealing videos from YouTube trying to you know slice in firefighters doing cool stuff.
01:09:11.199 --> 01:09:12.800
So uh yeah, that's a good one.
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:14.319
Encourage you to listen to it.
01:09:14.560 --> 01:09:18.239
It is added to the Spotify playlist now, which has grown immensely.
01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:22.960
And it's a very uh diverse selection of music at this point.
01:09:23.199 --> 01:09:27.199
I've had uh number three, cold weekend at the station.
01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:33.199
Rig checks are done, training is done, PT is done, food is cooking and simmering in the crock pot, whatever.
01:09:33.279 --> 01:09:36.159
It's a lazy day, but you're not being lazy, is my point.
01:09:36.399 --> 01:09:48.720
And you're in the day room and you're clicking through with the remote, and you come across that movie that you've seen it 40 times before, and it doesn't matter what point in the movie it is, you're gonna finish the movie.
01:09:48.800 --> 01:09:50.399
What movie is that for you?
01:09:52.399 --> 01:09:53.920
Maybe, maybe.
01:09:54.319 --> 01:09:56.079
Um, here we go.
01:09:56.239 --> 01:09:57.359
Uh, this one's pretty easy.
01:09:57.439 --> 01:09:58.399
The notebook.
01:09:58.720 --> 01:09:59.680
No, I'm just kidding.
01:09:59.840 --> 01:10:01.039
Um, not the notebook.
01:10:01.199 --> 01:10:03.439
I just wanted to see, I just wanted to see your face.
01:10:03.680 --> 01:10:10.960
Um, so I've always worked at busy company, so like I've I don't know if I've ever been able to watch a movie all the way through.
01:10:11.119 --> 01:10:15.680
Uh and when I was thinking about this, like I just there's something about a firehouse.
01:10:15.760 --> 01:10:18.000
Uh and comedies for me were always the thing.
01:10:18.079 --> 01:10:34.159
And there's one uh movie with Will Farrell and I think John Riley is the other guy's name, Step Brothers, where it's just it just feels like a freaking firehouse, you know, where you can, you know, and the number of times like I don't know if I like this guy, and then all of a sudden, like, did we just become best friends?
01:10:34.239 --> 01:10:41.680
You know, and I never teabagged anybody's drum set, but like the the calls would bring you together, the training would bring you together, and like that's how we became best friends.
01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:46.399
Um, and so many different personalities that you know I never would have come across in life.
01:10:46.479 --> 01:10:51.199
Um, that I really enjoyed getting to know, like, and that's the that's the extended family, so it's been neat.
01:10:51.520 --> 01:10:52.239
No, I love the answer.
01:10:52.399 --> 01:10:53.600
Step Brothers, great one.
01:10:53.680 --> 01:10:55.119
Uh yeah, I love it.
01:10:55.279 --> 01:10:58.000
Uh, Max point so far, one, two, and three.
01:10:58.239 --> 01:11:06.479
Number four, what is the one habit that you believe separates average firefighters from exceptional firefighters?
01:11:10.960 --> 01:11:13.680
So I think it goes back to that excellence piece.
01:11:13.840 --> 01:11:23.840
Um, when I would do interview prep for folks, especially when they were going from that firefighter position to that frontline supervisor position, we would have a list of core competencies the county had given us.
01:11:23.920 --> 01:11:28.000
Um, and they would have like behavioral things you were supposed to look at for people's appraisals.
01:11:28.079 --> 01:11:34.720
And so, as a supervisor, I was supposed to look and go, Corley's doing these things, and that means he gets a five out of five and gets a race this year.
01:11:34.800 --> 01:11:43.760
Um, so when we do interview prep, I would ask them, like, look at the differences, because there were two sets, one for firefighters and one for everybody else in a leadership position.
01:11:43.840 --> 01:11:47.520
And the fire chief had the same one as a company officer.
01:11:47.680 --> 01:11:53.199
And what you would notice is the language shifted to an active tense, right?
01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:59.199
So a firefighter participates in training, an officer creates the opportunity to train.
01:11:59.359 --> 01:12:10.000
And I think that's the same thing for what you're talking about with average and exceptional is like average firefighters participate in the experiences and the culture of the job.
01:12:10.239 --> 01:12:13.199
And we need average firefighters, we have to staff trucks, right?
01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:19.039
Exceptional firefighters build the culture and they create the experiences that others participate in.
01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:24.560
And I think it goes back to the excellence piece of like it's work, it's daily work, right?
01:12:24.640 --> 01:12:28.560
Um, but that's the beauty of it is you don't need a leadership position to be doing that.
01:12:28.720 --> 01:12:37.600
And those are always the people that hit the ground running as a company officer, and in then, and then and then and then in and then and then and then and then and then and then run in, run in, run in, run in, run in, run in.
01:12:37.840 --> 01:12:38.720
I'll add to it.
01:12:38.880 --> 01:12:41.520
We're almost there, we're almost to the finish line.
01:12:42.079 --> 01:12:45.439
Almost, I'm waiting to see if his mic's coming back.
01:12:45.680 --> 01:12:46.560
Listeners, I hope.
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:48.159
No audio yet, Benjamin.
01:12:48.319 --> 01:12:48.800
No audio.
01:12:48.960 --> 01:12:49.359
Keep it coming.
01:12:49.600 --> 01:12:50.399
It's coming back.
01:12:50.640 --> 01:12:51.279
There we are.
01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:51.920
All right.
01:12:53.840 --> 01:12:57.439
Your great point was ruined by the lack of audio there at the end, but that's okay.
01:12:57.600 --> 01:12:59.279
You still got max points for what you said.
01:12:59.439 --> 01:13:00.079
Number five.
01:13:01.279 --> 01:13:04.800
Never, it's uh not a new question to you.
01:13:04.880 --> 01:13:05.840
You've answered it many times.
01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:07.680
Heavy fire in searchable space.
01:13:07.920 --> 01:13:12.159
Would you rather be assigned to the nozzle or first in on VES?
01:13:13.680 --> 01:13:16.399
So uh it's the same as last time.
01:13:16.479 --> 01:13:19.520
I'm I'm taking the nozzle, that's where I spent all my time.
01:13:19.680 --> 01:13:23.359
Um, but I'm gonna expand on the reason I said last time.
01:13:23.600 --> 01:13:30.479
Um in my department, so many times a company officer on the engine is the one who set the stage for everything else.
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:39.760
And when I talk acting officer, and when I talk uh just anybody teaching the ride up front, um I talked about like your job is not to do everything, your job is to set the table.
01:13:39.920 --> 01:13:43.920
Like you've got what we talked about before, like water supply and on-scene report, stuff like that.
01:13:44.079 --> 01:13:50.960
Your job is to set the table in a way that people can come to it and it doesn't look like shit and people want to actually eat off of it.
01:13:51.119 --> 01:13:52.960
Um, and I took a lot of pride in that.
01:13:53.039 --> 01:13:56.720
Of like I wanted to be the guy that would show up and I wanted to set the stage.
01:13:56.880 --> 01:14:00.800
Maybe you've heard it this way, as the first line goes, so goes the fire.
01:14:01.039 --> 01:14:08.800
Like I wanted to be, yeah, I wanted to be the one that people could depend on that everything was gonna get better downstream, right?
01:14:08.960 --> 01:14:20.399
Like, no matter how it turned out, like no matter which way it was going, like they had hope that if I marked on on scene in command, that that was gonna be a well-run fire and we were gonna have a chance to do our best to make the difference.
01:14:20.479 --> 01:14:31.359
Um, you know, and the question is like you're saving a life either way, whether you're actually pulling the person out and you get the celebrity photo up, or you're holding you know the space for those people doing it and you're putting the wet stuff on the red stuff.
01:14:31.439 --> 01:14:35.680
Like you you made the save, and like that's the whole point of it.
01:14:37.039 --> 01:14:38.000
Good breakdown.
01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:38.880
Good breakdown.
01:14:38.960 --> 01:14:40.720
But nozzle's still your answer.
01:14:40.960 --> 01:14:42.159
Yeah, oh yeah.
01:14:42.479 --> 01:14:43.760
Right on, right on.
01:14:43.840 --> 01:14:45.359
Uh, it's one of the reasons I love the question.
01:14:45.439 --> 01:14:48.159
There is no wrong answer to it because, like you said, making the save is making the save.
01:14:48.239 --> 01:14:51.279
There is no wrong answer, it's just which one, and I love hearing the why.
01:14:51.359 --> 01:14:52.720
I love hearing the why behind it.
01:14:52.880 --> 01:14:56.800
Uh I'm just happy we got dispatched on the call.
01:14:57.199 --> 01:14:58.800
I just want to be on fire.
01:14:59.439 --> 01:15:05.279
And with those answers, it officially puts 364 scraps in the books.
01:15:05.600 --> 01:15:12.399
Benjamin Martin, a thank you for sharing your evening with us despite the storms, weathering through the audio issues.
01:15:12.560 --> 01:15:16.000
Which, listeners, I hope you enjoyed the Max Headroom impersonations.
01:15:16.239 --> 01:15:20.000
If someone wants to get a hold of you for more info, best way to do so.
01:15:20.720 --> 01:15:23.439
Uh, the website, embrace resistance.com.
01:15:23.520 --> 01:15:31.039
Uh, soon we'll be transitioning to rethinkingleadership.com, uh, Facebook, uh, my email, Benjamin at rethinkingleadership.com.
01:15:31.119 --> 01:15:33.039
Um, and it's certainly anywhere I'm speaking.
01:15:33.199 --> 01:15:36.319
Just uh, you know, love to talk with you.
01:15:36.399 --> 01:15:38.319
I genuinely enjoy talking leadership.
01:15:38.399 --> 01:15:39.680
So hit me up.
01:15:40.000 --> 01:15:40.399
Love it.
01:15:40.560 --> 01:15:41.279
I absolutely love it.
01:15:41.439 --> 01:15:45.359
All right, housekeeping for me, go to patreon.com slash the vigilantes.
01:15:45.680 --> 01:15:46.720
Discord's up and running.
01:15:46.800 --> 01:15:55.199
It's an amazing place to, if you're not a part of it, man, it's like all the best parts of social media, minus the limbic hijack and all the worst parts of social media.
01:15:55.279 --> 01:15:58.000
It's a phenomenal place to get your cup refilled.
01:15:58.159 --> 01:15:59.199
I absolutely love it.
01:15:59.359 --> 01:16:01.920
Uh, and I if you're not a vigilante, why not?
01:16:02.000 --> 01:16:04.000
Go to patreon.com and sign up.
01:16:04.079 --> 01:16:08.000
Uh, be part of the vigilante codex project, be part of everything else that's going on.
01:16:08.159 --> 01:16:11.680
All right, coming up next week on the scrap, return of Dr.
01:16:11.840 --> 01:16:12.960
Chief Candace Ashby.
01:16:13.119 --> 01:16:13.279
Dr.
01:16:13.439 --> 01:16:14.319
Doctor, back to back.
01:16:14.479 --> 01:16:16.560
Uh Candace Ashby coming on the show.
01:16:16.720 --> 01:16:19.840
And I'm completely independent of you guys teaching together.
01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:22.560
It's just happenstance that you guys are back to back right now.
01:16:22.720 --> 01:16:25.840
If I would have thought it's I'd have got all three, I'd have got Von Oppen at the end.
01:16:25.920 --> 01:16:27.359
So, but not the point.
01:16:27.920 --> 01:16:30.319
So, you know, she will be speaking her mind next week.
01:16:30.399 --> 01:16:34.319
Then two weeks from tonight, one of my favorite people, the incomparable Dan Shaw.
01:16:34.479 --> 01:16:37.840
So you talk about leadership, leadership, leadership, culture, culture, culture.
01:16:38.000 --> 01:16:44.880
It's it's gonna be that that's a that's a triple header lineup for this summer of 2026 as it continues to be locked and loaded.
01:16:45.039 --> 01:16:47.359
All right, enough jabbering from me.
01:16:47.520 --> 01:16:49.359
Let's get to the after party.
01:16:49.520 --> 01:16:59.920
Thank you once again, Benjamin Martin, for sharing your evening with us and your knowledge and your insight and for being a phenomenal guest, all the above.
01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:00.960
Well, thank you.
01:17:01.039 --> 01:17:01.920
It's always my privilege.
01:17:02.079 --> 01:17:03.439
Thanks to everybody for being here.
01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:06.399
Audience, you make the scrap magical each and every week.
01:17:06.479 --> 01:17:11.680
You show up, you bring your questions, you put in the work, and thank you so much for tuning in live.
01:17:11.760 --> 01:17:16.159
Without you and your questions, it would just be me and Ben talking about things we're passionate about.
01:17:16.319 --> 01:17:19.439
All that being said, I would enjoy it, but I love you guys showing up.
01:17:19.520 --> 01:17:21.199
Remember, mutts don't scrap.
01:17:21.279 --> 01:17:24.319
I hope the tone stays silent unless it is burning.
01:17:24.479 --> 01:17:26.159
This job will never be safe.
01:17:26.239 --> 01:17:28.479
So stay smart out there.
01:17:30.319 --> 01:17:32.560
Thanks for listening to the weekly scrap.
01:17:32.640 --> 01:17:34.560
Please subscribe and please share.
01:17:34.800 --> 01:17:36.880
We'll see you at the next episode.