WEBVTT
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00:00:04.160Welcome to season 4 of the Wayforward.tv podcast.
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00:00:09.519It's AJ, your host, and again we're diving deep into HR, DEI, and Change Management.
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00:00:13.439Before we begin, I'd like to speak about our sponsors, Pikware.io.
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00:00:18.879Pickware.io are a fair model recruitment agency that's reshaping how we recruit.
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00:00:29.920If you'd like to learn about how you could use AI, Martech, and unbiased analysis to outperform traditional recruitment, head to pickware.io slash next and access the complete label.
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00:00:32.719Mahesh, thank you so much for jumping onto the podcast.
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00:00:33.200Thank you.
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00:00:33.920Thanks for having me.
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00:00:34.880Pumped about this.
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00:00:35.840Awesome, awesome.
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00:00:39.359Before I go into, I guess, the nitty gritty of HR and all this sort of stuff.
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00:00:44.000Do you mind telling me your journey from how it all started to Canberra?
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00:00:44.640Yeah, sure.
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00:00:48.399So I came to New Zealand on my own when I was 14 from Singapore to India.
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00:00:51.600Born in uh Singapore uh I was born in India.
00:00:51.679 -->
00:00:53.119My early childhood was in Singapore.
00:00:53.439 -->
00:00:56.719Came to New Zealand on my own when I was 14.
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00:00:58.159This is 1994.
00:00:58.320 -->
00:01:01.119Went to Napier Boys High School, early years in Napier.
00:01:01.280 -->
00:01:05.439My most formative years were in Auckland on Queen Street.
00:01:05.599 -->
00:01:08.239Was one of the first bursters on Starbucks on Queen Street.
00:01:08.400 -->
00:01:13.040Came out of university with an organizational change degree and stats.
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00:01:15.840I think the New Zealand economy was going through a bit of a slump.
00:01:16.079 -->
00:01:17.439Struggled to find a gig.
00:01:17.599 -->
00:01:23.359I went to interview at Hudson recruitment in the Viaduct.
00:01:23.760 -->
00:01:26.799And they turned around and said, Hey, do you want to do you want a job?
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00:01:29.200And I had no clue what recruitment was.
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00:01:31.040They had really good training.
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00:01:37.280Uh and I was moved from I was put on the IT desk after one or two moves.
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00:01:49.359And Barclays Capital was hiring and building their premier tech team in Singapore.
00:01:49.760 -->
00:01:52.640And they were looking for top young people.
00:01:52.799 -->
00:01:57.519And somebody just passed it on to the IT team and said, Hey, I'll run with that.
00:01:57.680 -->
00:02:02.959And because I had some level of international background, I could imagine what this was like.
00:02:03.120 -->
00:02:06.640And I believed in it when most of my peers at Hudson didn't.
00:02:06.719 -->
00:02:09.759So I hustled, got on international calls.
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00:02:14.159This is straight out of university as a 23-year-old or something.
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00:02:17.680And they were charging, we were able to charge like 20-25% or something.
00:02:17.759 -->
00:02:18.240I can't remember.
00:02:18.400 -->
00:02:19.039Or 15%.
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00:02:22.400If it was something something high relative to what was happening.
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00:02:24.400And I made a whole bunch of placements.
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00:02:33.599And suddenly I was the Beasneys in Hudson, New Zealand, which was arguably the premier recruitment company in New Zealand back in the day.
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00:02:35.439Had a few more quarters that were really good.
00:02:35.520 -->
00:02:44.159And then I got headhunted for by Robert Walters for the Singapore team because I didn't do my military service in Singapore.
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00:02:51.439I wasn't granted a work visa, which was a shock to everybody as a Singapore resident from way back when you were I was obliged to do military service.
00:02:51.520 -->
00:02:57.840I didn't understand the fine print as a young teen, that therefore there would be challenges in getting a work visa.
00:02:57.919 -->
00:03:02.560And just like that, Robert Walters said, Hey, do you want to have a crack at Tokyo?
00:03:02.719 -->
00:03:05.439So then I ended up in Robert Walters, Tokyo for three years.
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00:03:07.520Uh paid off an 80K student loan.
00:03:07.759 -->
00:03:09.439Used to charge 30-35%.
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00:03:11.199Uh incredible.
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00:03:16.000I worked eight days a week, nine hours a day, lived in Japan for three years.
00:03:16.240 -->
00:03:18.879I was always going to come back home to New Zealand.
00:03:19.360 -->
00:03:23.439And en route, I stopped over in Sydney.
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00:03:38.400The GFC had a huge impact on my life, did an MBA, was in the top 1% in the scholarship exam, got into strategy consulting, did my own startup because I realized becoming an entrepreneur is one of the most powerful ways you can have sovereignty.
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00:03:43.840Did my did my startup in an HR platform, did okay, crazy stories there.
00:03:44.080 -->
00:03:50.960Was then invited by Melancliffe at Canva in Sydney when they saw the hustle I had to be one of the first leaders.
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00:03:56.400Came on board as a just a generalist doing a whole bunch of stuff, one of the first 25, and then took off.
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00:03:56.960Right.
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00:03:59.919When you said you did your own startup, you said you had crazy stories.
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00:04:03.039Do you mind mentioning one, which was probably the craziest according to you?
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00:04:05.520I know what it looks what it's like to be a founder.
00:04:05.759 -->
00:04:11.439I know what it's like to have huge anxiety in regards to this leap of faith that you're taking.
00:04:11.599 -->
00:04:17.040I know what it's like to seek and search for social validation, every single thing, because nobody understands what you're doing.
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00:04:18.480Everybody's growing, what are you doing?
00:04:18.639 -->
00:04:25.519I understand what it means to really understand the foundations of engineering, product, growth through all of those things.
00:04:25.600 -->
00:04:27.199I know what it means to be penniless.
00:04:27.439 -->
00:04:36.959And on that note, to make sure that some top companies, including Canva and Uber, started using our platform that we built, all I could afford was a three-piece packet of Tintems.
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00:04:42.480So I used to go, I went every day for a week outside the Uber office.
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00:04:48.160This is 15 years ago in Sydney, and left our sales pitch and a three-piece packet of Tintams.
00:04:48.399 -->
00:04:55.040And on the last day, the country manager of Uber, when they just launched in Sydney, gave me a call and said, Who are you?
00:04:55.199 -->
00:04:55.839What do you want?
00:04:56.000 -->
00:04:57.439And I said, Hey, blah, blah, blah.
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00:04:58.480Please use my platform.
00:04:58.639 -->
00:05:00.160And he said, Okay, we'll give it a crack.
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00:05:01.279Please don't come here again.
00:05:01.519 -->
00:05:04.639So there was like a, you know, like you mentioned as well that you did the MBA.
00:05:04.720 -->
00:05:08.879I my assumption is that that was before the time you started your startup.
00:05:09.199 -->
00:05:13.519When you do an MBA, you invest a lot in it, you've got maybe a student loan, or don't know how you did it.
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00:05:18.160Um, but your expectation, I guess, a lot of people's expectations are that they earn a certain amount.
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00:05:20.319Mentally, how did you deal with that?
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00:05:25.519Uh I when the GFC happened, I I'm fortunate, AJ, I'm not an angry person.
00:05:25.600 -->
00:05:27.920I don't have, I don't have the privilege of anger.
00:05:28.079 -->
00:05:36.560So when the GFC happened and it was made redundant, I was, I was, I was killing it in in in management, executive management, professional services, recruitment, right?
00:05:36.639 -->
00:05:38.240I was I was I was rocketing up.
00:05:38.480 -->
00:05:39.839And then the whole world stopped.
00:05:40.000 -->
00:05:47.600And as I started to understand what happened, and anybody has hasn't watched the big short they should, I was like, whoa, wait a second.
00:05:47.680 -->
00:05:49.040I thought the world worked this way.
00:05:49.199 -->
00:05:50.480If I did this, this happened.
00:05:50.720 -->
00:05:53.199What are all what what what is all of this stuff?
00:05:53.360 -->
00:05:55.360I didn't I didn't understand how the world worked.
00:05:55.519 -->
00:05:58.879So I was very clear about why I did the MBA.
00:05:59.040 -->
00:06:04.959I didn't understand how economics was connected to marketing, was connected to accounting, was connected to org structure and all of this stuff.
00:06:05.120 -->
00:06:07.680So I was very clear about why I did it.
00:06:07.839 -->
00:06:08.959I wanted to understand the levers.
00:06:09.600 -->
00:06:14.399I had some notions of moving into a more complex career.
00:06:14.560 -->
00:06:25.279So from recruitment, which is fundamentally sales and it's one-dimensional or it's less dimensional, to I had this notion that strategy consulting was going to be more complex and we're gonna discuss cool things.
00:06:25.439 -->
00:06:30.000And after the NBA, when I got into strategy consulting, I was like, this is kind of this is just the same BS.
00:06:30.240 -->
00:06:31.279Like, are you kidding me?
00:06:31.360 -->
00:06:34.160Like there's no real value add going on here, right?
00:06:34.399 -->
00:06:37.199In fact, recruitment from a sales perspective, there was more.
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00:06:40.560Like you're actually making a debt that someone has been placed in someone.
00:06:40.720 -->
00:06:47.759Strategy consulting is the stakeholders and doing a PowerPoint deck, like it's not, which is why then I I decided to be my own startup founder.
00:06:48.079 -->
00:06:53.199And so you went from there and then you got uh you know somewhat headhaunted by Canva.
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00:06:54.160What was it like?
00:06:54.319 -->
00:07:03.199And I guess uh if you were to look back at it, what would you say were the key learnings in terms of building a team from I guess that size?
00:07:03.519 -->
00:07:04.079Yeah, for sure.
00:07:04.240 -->
00:07:05.519So I joined when I was 25.
00:07:05.759 -->
00:07:08.480So connecting the docs backwards, right, and let's be clear.
00:07:08.560 -->
00:07:11.120So when I joined, we were 25 people who's worth 20 million.
00:07:11.199 -->
00:07:12.800Today it's 4,000 people worth 40 bill.
00:07:12.959 -->
00:07:18.319I have had the opportunity to be inside the black box and engine room of one of those TV shows.
00:07:18.639 -->
00:07:22.800You switch on Uber, you switch on Spotify, or these TV shows.
00:07:22.959 -->
00:07:24.319So I was in there, right?
00:07:24.399 -->
00:07:26.959I've I've seen what happens, I know what happens.
00:07:27.120 -->
00:07:34.399So connecting the dots backwards, there are a few key things I realized that I kind of was like, oh, something special is going on here.
00:07:34.560 -->
00:07:39.199And one of the biggest things is the founders' incredible levels of intentionality.
00:07:39.360 -->
00:07:47.759They were so intentional, or a layman's way of saying anal, about this should be this way, this should be this way, this should be this way, this should be this way.
00:07:47.920 -->
00:07:48.800I'll give you an example.
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00:07:55.600When a startup grows at the pace that Canva grows, and the technical definition of a startup is something that aims to grow 5% week on week.
00:07:55.680 -->
00:07:58.720When a startup grows at that pace and things are selling like hotcakes, right?
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00:08:00.079Like everything's breaking.
00:08:00.240 -->
00:08:03.839People, finance, org structure, investor relations.
00:08:04.000 -->
00:08:06.480Like it's just fires everywhere.
00:08:06.639 -->
00:08:09.680But the fires are fine because you're winning.
00:08:09.839 -->
00:08:12.800Because the customer in the market's like, I want more, I want more, I want more.
00:08:12.879 -->
00:08:13.519So that's okay.
00:08:13.759 -->
00:08:20.240So company re-orgs are just like a nearly fortnightly thing because we've got to look at the problem this way now.
00:08:20.319 -->
00:08:22.639We've got to focus on this now, we've got to focus, it's constantly changing.
00:08:22.720 -->
00:08:28.399So doing one of the reorgs, uh, I was asked to do the re-org, and I did it.
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00:08:31.040And I spent all weekend on a Sunday afternoon.
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00:08:37.919So I'd done the re-org and I'd worked out then the final output, which is where everybody's seating was going to change.
00:08:38.320 -->
00:08:41.600So I I spent all weekend, as I did.
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00:08:46.000Um, and the plan was for everybody to come in and take this stuff and move it around.
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00:08:46.320Right?
00:08:46.799 -->
00:08:48.559Mel walks in on Sunday.
00:08:48.879 -->
00:08:50.399Mel Limpekins, founder of Canva.
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00:08:53.519On Sunday on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday, yeah.
00:08:53.679 -->
00:08:54.159How then?
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00:08:54.720Right.
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00:08:56.399Like the founders of phase one.
00:08:56.639 -->
00:08:58.399A lot, most of the startups are seven days a week.
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00:08:59.519Yep.
00:08:59.679 -->
00:08:59.919Okay.
00:09:00.159 -->
00:09:01.759So employees as well.
00:09:01.840 -->
00:09:08.159Like those those that I mean early on, I'd say sub-15.
00:09:08.399 -->
00:09:09.600Yeah, seven days a week.
00:09:09.759 -->
00:09:11.519Not engineers, but everybody else.
00:09:12.080 -->
00:09:14.159Um, this is at true high growth.
00:09:14.320 -->
00:09:20.720Uh so she walks in and she's like, oh my gosh, she's an incredibly pleasant person, unbelievable competitor.
00:09:20.879 -->
00:09:22.799I trust Mel to never lose.
00:09:23.039 -->
00:09:25.440She she goes, so you've organized everything.
00:09:25.519 -->
00:09:27.840Oh, and we had like 50 or 40, 50 people.
00:09:28.000 -->
00:09:30.080She's like, Oh, we're gonna, we should move everything.
00:09:30.240 -->
00:09:31.360I'm like, what do you mean?
00:09:31.519 -->
00:09:34.799Like, we should move everything, we should move all the laptops and everything.
00:09:34.879 -->
00:09:38.639So they walk in to brand new, like amazing concierge experience.
00:09:38.799 -->
00:09:39.679I'm like, what?
00:09:40.240 -->
00:09:42.480Like, that's like five, six hours of work.
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00:09:43.519She goes, Yeah, I know.
00:09:43.679 -->
00:09:46.159But Mel, if they just come in, it's so much more efficient.
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00:09:50.480If they just come in and move by themselves, no, that's not the way we do it.
00:09:50.639 -->
00:09:54.080We've made sure that everybody comes in and has an incredible experience.
00:09:54.639 -->
00:10:11.200So for the next four to five hours, myself, Melanie Perkins, Cliff O'Brecht, and Zach Kitschke, who is effectively like the fourth or fifth founder of Canva, if you will, spent the next four or five hours moving every single desk, wiping the table, doing everything.
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00:10:25.600That is a founder, a CEO who's intentional, who's very clear about this is the way that my world is going to exist, this is the way things are gonna be, and I'm not gonna make any excuses about it.
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00:10:26.639This is my house.
00:10:26.799 -->
00:10:32.159It's that kind of intentionality that delivers incredible products and incredible growth.
00:10:32.639 -->
00:10:40.559That particular lesson, I guess, that I've understood from that is that of course, working within the business on the business, and then also treating it like a baby as well.
00:10:40.639 -->
00:10:46.399And then I guess like you seem to be quite inspired by that too, and also put your hands forward as well.
00:10:46.559 -->
00:10:59.759If you were to speak to other, you know, startup founders or even just managing directors of small companies out there in New Zealand, that in this day and age, particularly with the current financial situation, they do some of them kind of do need to do six to seven days.
00:10:59.840 -->
00:11:05.440How do you inspire others to also come on the same page too when sentiment out there is rather negative?
00:11:05.759 -->
00:11:06.720Yeah, that's a good question.
00:11:06.879 -->
00:11:09.279Look, it helped that I'd been a founder before, right?
00:11:09.600 -->
00:11:21.519And I finally was working for and with two other founders who were as like mission-driven and obviously more mission-driven than I am, right?
00:11:22.000 -->
00:11:28.480And um there was a huge sense of salvation for me in regard to finally.
00:11:28.559 -->
00:11:30.320Well, I was doing my own thing, I was very clear.
00:11:30.480 -->
00:11:34.240Now I'm part of a team and leaders who are like not beating around the bush.
00:11:34.399 -->
00:11:35.840We're here to get something done.
00:11:36.000 -->
00:11:40.960There's purpose and meaning and clarity to my time and how I spend my time.
00:11:41.200 -->
00:11:45.279So your question was how do founders, entrepreneurs inspire?
00:11:45.440 -->
00:11:55.440I think one of the biggest gaps that most people make, most entrepreneurs and CEOs, the era, and and I want to be very clear, if you have your own business, right?
00:11:55.759 -->
00:12:01.600Because you can tell the culture of a company by looking at the CEO's compensation letter.
00:12:01.759 -->
00:12:11.039If it is a mature public company, you are measured on short-term results, month on month, week on week, annual results.
00:12:11.360 -->
00:12:15.679Your salary and bonus is measured by those results.
00:12:15.840 -->
00:12:21.840And therefore, the CEO and consequently the executive team is going to be incentivized to maintain that frame.
00:12:22.000 -->
00:12:27.759If you are the founder entrepreneur, this is your life's work and the compensation.
00:12:27.840 -->
00:12:29.279You have equity, so much equity.
00:12:29.360 -->
00:12:32.320And not just financial equity, but cultural equity, right?
00:12:32.399 -->
00:12:34.559This is this is you as an extension of you.
00:12:34.720 -->
00:12:36.399That's a different set of incentives.
00:12:36.559 -->
00:12:40.080So it's important, and there's no right or wrong, but it's important to understand.
00:12:40.240 -->
00:12:46.559Like people just behave, and culture just is a secondary effect of the incentives that are there.
00:12:46.720 -->
00:12:52.639So I think entrepreneurs, CEO entrepreneurs have to acknowledge, hey, what am I looking to achieve here?
00:12:52.799 -->
00:12:53.679First and foremost.
00:12:53.840 -->
00:12:59.919And a lot of small, medium-sized enterprise entrepreneurs are usually looking for an exit or something.
00:13:00.080 -->
00:13:04.480So they have some story in their mind around, hey, this is how my life should be.
00:13:04.639 -->
00:13:10.559So Mel, with Canva, with that scale of imagination, you're looking to actually change the world.
00:13:10.720 -->
00:13:12.799She donated, I think,$12 billion last.
00:13:13.360 -->
00:13:17.519This is completely intentional on her side from when she started Canva.
00:13:17.679 -->
00:13:25.840She had an image and a vision in regards to, hey, one day I'm going to be able to positively affect problems in society because of the success of Canva.
00:13:26.080 -->
00:13:34.960Small, medium-sized entrepreneur might be, hey, I want enough financial freedom for my family, for my friends, which is probably a five to ten million dollar exit.
00:13:35.120 -->
00:13:47.919Having that story very clear and then articulating, therefore, this goal, therefore this goal, and making sure that your team members' incentives are aligned to that is very powerful.
00:13:48.159 -->
00:13:54.799The mistake or the gap that most entrepreneurs make is they don't make that personal mission.
00:13:55.039 -->
00:14:00.559Forget about the company, the personal mission, what I'm trying to get out of this, explicit to themselves.
00:14:00.720 -->
00:14:07.360And I realize they don't do that because they're nervous that if they do that, what if they don't hit it?
00:14:07.519 -->
00:14:08.480But you've got to.
00:14:08.720 -->
00:14:11.440Because like there's a point with this whole project, right?
00:14:11.600 -->
00:14:21.360Like, okay, so that's the point that therefore this, therefore this, therefore this, therefore, hey guys, need to come in seven days a week because I'm planning a$20 million exit and I want you to have a cut out of it, right?
00:14:21.519 -->
00:14:23.039Then it it's connected.
00:14:23.279 -->
00:14:24.159I hope that makes sense.
00:14:24.399 -->
00:14:26.159It does, because there's a clear incentive.
00:14:26.320 -->
00:14:27.039Like correct.
00:14:27.200 -->
00:14:29.200You know, some employees there be like, what am I doing here?
00:14:29.440 -->
00:14:30.960Like, what the F am I here for?
00:14:31.200 -->
00:14:31.600Correct.
00:14:31.840 -->
00:14:34.000But then when it's clear as to what we're aiming for.
00:14:34.159 -->
00:14:39.519And then I guess the other part here is kind of rationalizing that pathway to them.
00:14:39.679 -->
00:14:42.000Because I guess like with startups, it's never linear, right?
00:14:42.080 -->
00:14:47.519It's usually product fit for the next three months and then all of a sudden capped or something's changing or whatever it may be.
00:14:47.600 -->
00:14:54.559And that kind of could lead to a lot of confusion within the team because you've got your dev team working on a particular feature and then it becomes dormant.
00:14:54.720 -->
00:14:58.000And that's sometimes for three years or two years, and it's all over the place.
00:14:58.159 -->
00:15:04.399In in situations like that, I assume Canva may have had some things like that, like Airtaska 2.
00:15:04.559 -->
00:15:13.759How would you deal, I guess, with team morale and then you know, staying on the same page and aligned with you know the overall mission, which is to reach that particular level?
00:15:14.000 -->
00:15:21.120Yeah, and it's it's um here my journey with phase one has illuminated things even more for me.
00:15:21.600 -->
00:15:23.600Um phase one is early stage.
00:15:23.759 -->
00:15:30.320Uh, found a community that I nurtured over the last four or five years in New Zealand.
00:15:30.480 -->
00:15:33.120There's a fund that's adjacent to it.
00:15:33.600 -->
00:15:39.12085% of the companies that we've invested into and nurtured have raised global institutional venture.
00:15:39.279 -->
00:15:42.080That conversion rate is better than anything YC has produced.
00:15:42.240 -->
00:15:43.919So something extraordinary happened.
00:15:44.159 -->
00:15:45.360I can touch on that later.
00:15:45.519 -->
00:15:46.399It is important.
00:15:46.720 -->
00:15:51.679Different startup types actually require different levels of irrationality.
00:15:51.919 -->
00:15:58.639What is the thing that keeps a person more sticky and makes a positive culture and a happy place to work?
00:15:58.799 -->
00:16:00.720It is if the business is winning.
00:16:00.799 -->
00:16:08.879And a startup's winning when you have a loved product and you've worked out a strong acquisition rate and then it's just gone, right?
00:16:09.039 -->
00:16:11.600And then you have really good people who are helping to go.
00:16:11.679 -->
00:16:11.840Okay.
00:16:12.080 -->
00:16:14.559But the key thing is it's got to win, right?
00:16:14.799 -->
00:16:16.960Wow, I'm a member of the All Blacks.
00:16:17.120 -->
00:16:19.200Wow, I'm a member of Real Madrid.
00:16:19.279 -->
00:16:21.440Wow, I'm oh my god, my team's great.
00:16:21.600 -->
00:16:24.320And I come in and I do work and it delivers results.
00:16:24.559 -->
00:16:29.840The core piece of why someone comes to work is just so fulfilled.
00:16:30.000 -->
00:16:31.200That is the most important thing.
00:16:31.360 -->
00:16:35.279Different types of startups take different lengths of time to deliver this.
00:16:35.440 -->
00:16:43.840A B2B SaaS startup, the likes of Zero, the likes of Employment Hero, Safety Culture, Tracksuit, Halter, CODIS.
00:16:44.240 -->
00:16:52.159A B2B SaaS product is a lot more easier to get going than a B2C startup.
00:16:52.320 -->
00:16:53.039Why is that?
00:16:53.360 -->
00:16:58.399Because a business, unlike a consumer, is a rational construct.
00:16:58.720 -->
00:17:01.600A business wants to make money, save money, stay out of jail.
00:17:01.759 -->
00:17:10.079One of those three things in a core function of recruitment, procurement, finance, and then it's one little thing and it's for a certain size, for a certain market.
00:17:10.240 -->
00:17:14.160Okay, solve this problem, solve it really well with a love product, go.
00:17:14.319 -->
00:17:20.480And you can build, you so you can maintain a level of, okay, we got this, guys, we got this, we got this, we got to stay in the game.
00:17:20.640 -->
00:17:27.920It takes about two years after that first funding round to build that love product and just start to go max, right?
00:17:28.559 -->
00:17:37.839A B2C product, it takes about four to five years because building a loved product for a B2C startup is crazy hard.
00:17:38.000 -->
00:17:41.359Like crazy hard because a consumer is irrational.
00:17:41.599 -->
00:17:43.680I want to go to the gym, put a chocolate bar in front of me.
00:17:43.759 -->
00:17:45.359Oh, well, I won't go to the gym anymore.
00:17:45.599 -->
00:17:52.240And that requires about so for three to four years, the startup founder has to just hold that team together.
00:17:52.400 -->
00:17:56.000So depending on what is required, right?
00:17:56.079 -->
00:17:58.640Like it just takes longer with B2C.
00:17:58.720 -->
00:18:00.319And so you have to invest even more time.
00:18:00.400 -->
00:18:05.359So the likes of Uber, Airbnb, all of these kind of places, the stories are famous.
00:18:05.599 -->
00:18:10.400It's so much harder to hold that early team together.
00:18:10.559 -->
00:18:16.640But if you can, then the upside for B2C is way bigger than B2B.
00:18:16.799 -->
00:18:20.88030% of global GDP is business, 70% of global GDP is consumer.
00:18:21.039 -->
00:18:22.079Again, I hope that makes sense.
00:18:22.400 -->
00:18:23.039It does, it does.
00:18:23.279 -->
00:18:25.440I wonder dive deeper into it.
00:18:25.519 -->
00:18:30.880So would you consider, I guess, AirTasker, would you consider it as a B2C or B2B?
00:18:31.119 -->
00:18:32.240B2C, for sure.
00:18:32.480 -->
00:18:33.359B2C, right?
00:18:33.440 -->
00:18:35.279And marketplaces are crazy hard.
00:18:35.599 -->
00:18:40.319Because you've got two, again, you've got to have um supply and then of course demand at the same time, too.
00:18:40.559 -->
00:18:43.359Yeah, the the one thing is, and it's a spectrum, right?
00:18:43.440 -->
00:18:44.640It's become a spectrum.
00:18:44.799 -->
00:18:50.319They're not discrete situations anymore, like a consumer in a business, because you have pro users, right?
00:18:50.480 -->
00:19:03.759Or prosumers, I think they're called, where it's actually one people teams, so kinda like a consumer, but it's they're using the product not like Spotify, but to do it, get a job done.
00:19:03.920 -->
00:19:05.279So that makes it rational.
00:19:05.519 -->
00:19:07.519So Canva is in that middle spectrum.
00:19:07.599 -->
00:19:09.839And AirTask is also in that middle spectrum.
00:19:10.079 -->
00:19:13.519Like Spotify, YouTube originally weren't in that middle spectrum.
00:19:13.680 -->
00:19:16.319So um so there's a bit of a spectrum there.
00:19:16.640 -->
00:19:26.079So when we go back to, I guess, founders, even managing directors, um, you know, holding their fort uh, you know, either for three years or five years.
00:19:26.319 -->
00:19:34.960The example that I emailed earlier, like, say for example, you might just have a subdivision consultant company or property development company at the moment that just provides advice.
00:19:35.119 -->
00:19:37.599And then all of a sudden they tap into AI.
00:19:37.839 -->
00:19:42.559Won't be specific into it, or I'll get gunshots of how wrong I am with what I'm talking about.
00:19:42.799 -->
00:19:52.640Let's just say that they've come up with a solution that pretty much automates 80% of it, as in like your drawings, your concepts, your RC, your BC, EPAs, pretty much a lot of it.
00:19:52.720 -->
00:20:05.680And all of a sudden they're moving from your typical uh 1980s agency or company to I I wouldn't call it software, I'd call it again, AI or something, something.
00:20:05.839 -->
00:20:06.880I don't know what to call it.
00:20:07.039 -->
00:20:09.359I mean, I don't even what would you call that?
00:20:09.519 -->
00:20:13.039That transition, what sort of advice would you have for people like that?
00:20:13.119 -->
00:20:20.240Because you've been in so many different companies, you've been through also a lot of transitions to, and also brought transition to those companies as well.
00:20:20.400 -->
00:20:25.119What essentially would you advise to New Zealanders and even Australians that are dealing with this change?
00:20:25.359 -->
00:20:27.119With the um advance of AI?
00:20:27.440 -->
00:20:55.839Advance of AI and then also business as well, because there would be, I believe, and I might be wrong, I believe 10, 15 years from now, your companies that do a lot of manual work today to in order to produce what they need to produce, say, for example, drawings for civil or architecture, whatever it may be, would kind of get sucked up by other companies that embrace AI technology to automate a lot of that, but probably even partner up with the council directly to produce certain things and really speed things up.
00:20:56.000 -->
00:20:58.880So it might just be that the irrelevant could be that.
00:20:58.960 -->
00:21:05.279But like if a company is going through that transition, we can even go into a topic as in like you know, the person going through transition to work rules.
00:21:05.680 -->
00:21:05.920Sure.
00:21:06.079 -->
00:21:07.039I think there are three things.
00:21:07.279 -->
00:21:10.559One, like I said earlier, what do you want to get out of this?
00:21:10.799 -->
00:21:14.079And you could argue that there are three swim lanes.
00:21:14.240 -->
00:21:23.119You would either want personal financial freedom for you and your family, two, you want to make regional level change, three, you want to change the world.
00:21:23.359 -->
00:21:27.759The property agency that you talked about is very likely swim lane one.
00:21:27.839 -->
00:21:32.319And it's very important to note that none of the swim lanes are better or worse than the other, right?
00:21:32.480 -->
00:21:34.319It doesn't make you any cooler, et cetera.
00:21:34.400 -->
00:21:43.920Like Manley Perkins is not cooler than the entrepreneur who started a recruitment company or a dairy or whatever.
00:21:44.000 -->
00:21:44.960Like it's not, right?
00:21:45.039 -->
00:21:50.640Like you respect entrepreneurs for stepping out and having a crack, whoever they are, whatever they're doing.
00:21:50.799 -->
00:21:55.359But what is cool is being conscious about what do I want to get out of this.
00:21:55.759 -->
00:21:57.680So say it's at last family.
00:21:58.000 -->
00:21:58.240Okay.
00:21:58.400 -->
00:22:09.279You could make it regional level change, but you're looking at an exit listing on the stock exchange or through a merger and acquisition, and you're going to walk away with about five to ten mil.
00:22:09.519 -->
00:22:14.640Or if you want to set it up as like a New Zealand, Australia thing, maybe it's about 20 to 30 mil.
00:22:15.039 -->
00:22:18.240The first one is five to seven years of incredible hard work.
00:22:18.480 -->
00:22:21.200The second one is about seven to ten years of incredible hard work.
00:22:21.359 -->
00:22:24.880So depending on which story you have in your head about what's my outcome.
00:22:25.039 -->
00:22:30.559And if you want a more outlier outcome, I would say aim for overseas customers.
00:22:30.720 -->
00:22:32.079Aim for premium customers.
00:22:32.240 -->
00:22:33.359New Zealand's a small market.
00:22:33.440 -->
00:22:42.960Now, unless you want to take on the New Zealand market completely, but like a property company, okay, like there's a certain limitation, right, in regards to the number of my high margin customers.
00:22:43.119 -->
00:22:44.400Can I have a crack at Dubai?
00:22:44.559 -->
00:22:46.480Can I have a crack at a small area in the US?
00:22:46.640 -->
00:23:00.720Can I have a crack at can I, instead of trying to play a higher value game in New Zealand, can I find customers overseas who have higher value problems and they need the problem solved?
00:23:00.960 -->
00:23:10.480To identify those customers and address their problems is probably one and a half times the effort required to, you know, get going with the New Zealand customer.
00:23:10.640 -->
00:23:25.279But once you do that, once you crack the Dubai market, which is probably a cost space of about a year to a year and a half, or two years worth of like, hey, I'm going to pay down two years worth of cost to really understand the market, suddenly you're playing at a higher game, a higher margin play.
00:23:25.440 -->
00:23:26.400So that's number two.
00:23:26.640 -->
00:23:30.319Go global, play with more higher margin businesses.
00:23:30.559 -->
00:23:39.519Third thing is if you are not getting working extensively to become AI literate, you are going to get left behind.
00:23:39.599 -->
00:23:40.960There is no denying this.
00:23:41.200 -->
00:23:54.400So either get on that bandwagon and start training, talking about AI tools, doing all of that, or accept that your business and effectively your skills and experience is going to become less valuable.
00:23:54.559 -->
00:24:00.640And it's not because jobs are going to go away, it's just that other people are going to be able to do so much more with these tools.
00:24:00.799 -->
00:24:10.880So then effectively, a value of your skills and experience, just because there are X number of people who know how to use these tools and are comfortable, then your value is going to be diminished.
00:24:11.039 -->
00:24:14.319So go out of your way to play around with these tools.
00:24:15.119 -->
00:24:23.279Would you say that like being someone who's very good with, say, for example, all these AI tools, you'd kind of say that they're kind of like a GP, doctor wise.
00:24:23.440 -->
00:24:30.799And then someone who's very skilled or a lot got a lot of experience with say a certain industry or whatever it may be are specialists with those tools.
00:24:30.960 -->
00:24:35.680So they shouldn't feel too, you know, too much discomfort with their role and the capability.
00:24:35.839 -->
00:24:43.680You know, would you say that that might change in the world, you know, in the world too and we kind of need to upskill ourselves even much more heavily?
00:24:43.920 -->
00:24:47.519Yeah, I think what what's going to happen is not anything new.
00:24:48.000 -->
00:25:00.160You know, there is uh there is a marketing bell curve around you have your early innovators who try stuff, and then you have, like I think, I can't remember the next segment, and then you have the normal, the big broad, and then you have the laggards.
00:25:00.240 -->
00:25:05.039There's a bell curve in regards to how people try new things and and new products.
00:25:05.200 -->
00:25:07.359And I think the same bell curve will happen.
00:25:07.599 -->
00:25:13.680The issue is the delta of how much more valuable and powerful you are use these tools.
00:25:13.839 -->
00:25:16.240The delta is going to be so big, right?
00:25:16.400 -->
00:25:18.240Those who end up using these tools.
00:25:18.400 -->
00:25:22.319So my suspicion is amongst doctors, there's a normal bell curve, you know.
00:25:22.559 -->
00:25:25.359Amongst, I don't know, bakers, there's a normal bell curve.
00:25:25.519 -->
00:25:30.960That's it's nearly like each person's own risk tolerance to try something new, you know.
00:25:31.200 -->
00:25:43.839And the issue with this technological curve or step change is the the delta between those who are AI literate and those who are a bit slower.
00:25:44.000 -->
00:25:50.559Like it's because you're so much more powerful and so much more capable with these tools.
00:25:50.720 -->
00:25:55.200And it's growing at such a fast rate that you just don't want to get left behind.
00:25:55.359 -->
00:25:55.680True.
00:25:55.839 -->
00:25:58.160They were saying Moore's Law, was it every three years?
00:25:58.319 -->
00:25:59.119It speeds up.
00:25:59.279 -->
00:26:03.039But I feel like we're in a place where there's no such thing as Moore's Law anymore.
00:26:03.119 -->
00:26:06.160We're much quicker than Moore's Law itself, which is pretty cool.
00:26:06.240 -->
00:26:07.519Like that's how quick things are changing.
00:26:07.599 -->
00:26:09.920And it might be a bit, I guess, you know, kind of hard to fathom.
00:26:10.160 -->
00:26:22.559One thing I wanted to ask about specifically when it came to, you know, how you mentioned B2B business owners, two or three years to bring it to a certain level of stability or scalable growth, and then you know, four to six years if it's a B2C or whatever it may be.
00:26:22.720 -->
00:26:23.519Leadership debt.
00:26:23.680 -->
00:26:29.039How do you maintain, manage, and track that while you are trying to keep everything on track in those periods?
00:26:29.279 -->
00:26:29.599Wow.
00:26:29.839 -->
00:26:30.559Good question.
00:26:30.720 -->
00:26:32.559That's a that's a really good question.
00:26:32.799 -->
00:26:34.960Okay, so let's define leadership debt.
00:26:35.359 -->
00:26:42.880So leadership debt is basically a startup founder is getting more and more sophisticated about a whole range of things.
00:26:43.039 -->
00:26:51.920They have to they've got to learn how to build loved product, how to speak to customers, how to build a powerful customer acquisition channel.
00:26:52.079 -->
00:27:00.799They've got to learn how to deal with investors, they've got to learn how to deal with all the complex people problems, personaged problems, they've got to understand legal.
00:27:00.880 -->
00:27:01.920So there's a lot going on.
00:27:02.079 -->
00:27:03.359They've got to learn how to communicate.
00:27:03.599 -->
00:27:16.799So leadership debt happens when you make decisions that while you're evolving as a leader, and even and if you are perfect, you're going to make decisions that require every decision is a compromise.
00:27:17.039 -->
00:27:18.880Every decision is a compromise.
00:27:19.039 -->
00:27:23.359So every decision, I'd argue, professionally and in life, debt forms.
00:27:23.519 -->
00:27:27.200The only way you don't form debt, even if you don't make a decision, debt forms, right?
00:27:28.079 -->
00:27:32.960So so leadership debt is when I make a decision and it's five steps forward, two steps back.
00:27:33.279 -->
00:27:38.480The only way you get past this is if you have a valuable business.
00:27:38.640 -->
00:27:40.799If you have a business and a venture that's winning.
00:27:40.960 -->
00:27:53.759So if you have something that customers want and the market wants, then that poll earns you the right to keep accruing debt of all sorts, including leadership debt.
00:27:53.920 -->
00:27:57.839So the single most important thing is hey, what is the point of our existence?
00:27:58.000 -->
00:27:59.680The point of existence is all the customer problems.
00:27:59.839 -->
00:28:00.960Do we do that really well?
00:28:01.279 -->
00:28:02.799Do we do that exceptionally well?
00:28:02.960 -->
00:28:19.759Like the number of organizations I've seen and been part of that all kinds of surface level sticky tape, clusters, things, programs get rolled out when the core value proposition hasn't been addressed.
00:28:20.000 -->
00:28:26.079That's actually what's not that we need to go back to what are we doing here, who are we serving, what's the difference we're making.
00:28:26.319 -->
00:28:31.920Yeah, but like the employment scheme, employment benefit scheme is not gonna change that, you know.
00:28:32.640 -->
00:28:33.200Right.
00:28:33.680 -->
00:28:37.440And so you've got to go back to the core.
00:28:37.920 -->
00:28:46.400And far few, far too many leaders don't do that, don't have that honest conversation around like, are we winning?
00:28:47.119 -->
00:28:49.119What what's what's the core customer?
00:28:49.359 -->
00:28:51.359So that's how you deal with leadership.
00:28:51.759 -->
00:28:57.519Suppose like um in Canva when you you know joined the team and you started participating in people and operations.
00:28:57.680 -->
00:29:00.400How would you help the founder with this?
00:29:00.559 -->
00:29:06.400And what advice would you give to other HR leaders out there that are joining the founder today or even you know NMD call with this?
00:29:06.640 -->
00:29:08.720Yeah, so I I was fortunate, right?
00:29:08.799 -->
00:29:10.480Like it's unusual in my background.
00:29:10.799 -->
00:29:12.559And in Canva was interesting.
00:29:12.720 -->
00:29:15.279We had some early members that were just unusual.
00:29:15.440 -->
00:29:21.920Alexi Mitko, who was my partner in crime and finance, who as a 24-year-old I was 31 when I joined.
00:29:22.079 -->
00:29:24.640I I saw him and Cliff do like incredible things.
00:29:24.799 -->
00:29:26.880I remember like I guess 24, right?
00:29:28.319 -->
00:29:36.319And um I'd finished my MBA 31, 32, and career, you know, venture and investment and all this is still kind of new to me.
00:29:36.720 -->
00:29:38.480I thought, you know, those are what investment bankers do.
00:29:38.720 -->
00:29:52.240And I saw this 24 year old kid and a university dropout, which is clear correct, like close VCs on massive amounts of money and go through all the regulations, stipulations.
00:29:52.400 -->
00:29:54.240I'm like, what is going on?
00:29:54.640 -->
00:30:03.119And and it was a kind of environment which pulled people would Who were keen and desired to do extraordinary things.
00:30:03.359 -->
00:30:12.480But how was so so one of the big pieces that I was able to pull in from a people perspective is I was commercial.
00:30:12.640 -->
00:30:18.319The point of every part of the organization has to be to deliver value for the customer.
00:30:18.559 -->
00:30:19.119That's the point.
00:30:19.279 -->
00:30:19.920That's the point.
00:30:20.000 -->
00:30:21.039What we're all here for.
00:30:21.200 -->
00:30:25.599And because I had a career and I had my startup founder and stuff like that, I was like, okay.
00:30:25.680 -->
00:30:28.000And Alexi in finance got that too.
00:30:28.240 -->
00:30:34.880It wasn't to build a powerful people function or a powerful finance function.
00:30:35.200 -->
00:30:35.680The point.
00:30:35.920 -->
00:30:37.920My point of existence is to make sure.
00:30:38.079 -->
00:30:40.240Oh, and the people function, where is it scoped?
00:30:40.400 -->
00:30:46.559In making sure that we have incredible people that are clear about their goals so that we can deliver value to the customers.
00:30:46.799 -->
00:30:48.240It was never for the function itself.
00:30:48.319 -->
00:30:49.680It was always to deliver value.
00:30:49.839 -->
00:30:56.000So then, because you and you have that orientation and clear understanding of, sorry, why are we bringing this person on board?
00:30:56.079 -->
00:31:06.319It's for this, for this, for this, far few people leaders do not allow themselves or give space for themselves to really own the commerciality of the business, right?
00:31:06.559 -->
00:31:18.400If you are a people leader, you are actually responsible, usually, for the most expensive and dynamic and powerful thing in the business, which is um people.
00:31:18.720 -->
00:31:19.680Do you understand that?
00:31:19.839 -->
00:31:20.559Do you understand?
00:31:20.640 -->
00:31:25.680Do you look at the salary like that's it's a cost and it's delivering incredible value?
00:31:25.839 -->
00:31:27.440Do you understand the commerciality of this?
00:31:27.599 -->
00:31:28.559You don't understand how dynamic.
00:31:29.119 -->
00:31:31.519Because the founders, that's 100%.
00:31:32.000 -->
00:31:40.559Like they, they, they get it, but they are not able to meet people leaders who have that orientation.
00:31:40.720 -->
00:31:48.960Unfortunately, most people leaders, in my experience, come from a much more HR administration, risk management, mitigate risk background.
00:31:49.200 -->
00:31:50.160Completely understand.
00:31:50.400 -->
00:31:52.880That's classical from a mature point of view.
00:31:53.119 -->
00:31:55.119We're in the business of creating value here.
00:31:55.279 -->
00:31:55.599Okay.
00:31:55.759 -->
00:32:04.720So taking that ownership, and then if you can be a partner in crime to the founders around, hey, people just people are complex things, right?
00:32:04.960 -->
00:32:12.720So in behavioral economics, there is Daniel Kahneman as a Nobel Prize winner, put forward the notion of type one, type two thinking, right?
00:32:12.799 -->
00:32:16.960That all human beings, when they make a decision, basically falter into two types of thinking.
00:32:17.119 -->
00:32:18.960Type one is fight or flight thinking.
00:32:19.119 -->
00:32:20.960Something scary comes at me, bam.
00:32:21.119 -->
00:32:24.240Type two thinking is hey, let's get the Excel sheet out, let's think through it slowly.
00:32:24.480 -->
00:32:30.160Unfortunately, most human beings, when they make thinking, give people decisions, they use type one.
00:32:30.240 -->
00:32:33.200I see that person, oh, I think, yeah, we're gonna be a great match.
00:32:33.279 -->
00:32:34.799Oh, I don't think this person's a good fit.
00:32:34.960 -->
00:32:39.440This person, one of the terms I really detest is this person's not a cultural fit.
00:32:39.599 -->
00:32:40.559What does that even mean?
00:32:40.640 -->
00:32:42.079Like, do you know your culture inside out?
00:32:42.160 -->
00:32:42.880Do you have a framework?
00:32:42.960 -->
00:32:43.759Did you make an assessment?
00:32:43.839 -->
00:32:45.359Do you know what this person's culture is?
00:32:45.519 -->
00:32:46.160What is culture?
00:32:46.240 -->
00:32:47.759Like, what kind of assessment did you make?
00:32:47.839 -->
00:32:49.039No, they're not a cultural fit.
00:32:49.119 -->
00:32:49.279Okay.
00:32:49.599 -->
00:32:50.960You mean you don't like the person?
00:32:51.119 -->
00:32:51.519Sure.
00:32:51.680 -->
00:32:52.319No problem.
00:32:52.480 -->
00:32:53.920It's a good reason not to hire someone.
00:32:54.079 -->
00:32:55.119Don't say cultural fit.
00:32:55.200 -->
00:32:56.640Like, what kind of complex thing is that?
00:32:56.880 -->
00:33:02.799So if you can be a partner in crime to founders around, hey, let's just slow down on this people decision.
00:33:02.960 -->
00:33:09.359Let's write a strategy document about why this person's not working, what the context is, what happened, why?
00:33:09.599 -->
00:33:11.039This, this, this.
00:33:11.440 -->
00:33:12.400Slow it down.
00:33:12.559 -->
00:33:16.400That's nearly the most powerful thing that a people leader can do.
00:33:16.559 -->
00:33:16.799Right.
00:33:16.960 -->
00:33:18.000So two things.
00:33:18.160 -->
00:33:19.359One, what are we here to do?
00:33:19.440 -->
00:33:20.240What are the outcomes?
00:33:20.480 -->
00:33:22.480Commercial mission outcomes we're looking at achieve.
00:33:22.559 -->
00:33:25.759How does that connect to talent acquisition team engagement and vibe?
00:33:25.839 -->
00:33:28.960The three verticals in the people space, in my opinion.
00:33:29.119 -->
00:33:39.519And then, okay, in each of those verticals, how do we make sure that there is type two thinking happening where we're, you know, there is we're going through this in a very intentional way.
00:33:39.680 -->
00:33:40.480I'll do the work.
00:33:40.640 -->
00:33:48.640And I've built my the teams that I've built, and I'm still very proud of that early core team in Canva is still there.
00:33:48.960 -->
00:33:51.680The people team is still there, delivering incredible value.
00:33:51.920 -->
00:33:57.200The first person I hired as a recruiter in Manila is now the country manager of Canada Manila.
00:33:57.440 -->
00:34:06.559And I I I had the opportunity to coach and mentor them and inculcate so much of this thinking and so forth.
00:34:06.799 -->
00:34:11.519Um so I'm very proud of how those frameworks and those that thinking has worked out.
00:34:11.760 -->
00:34:14.559You mentioned Manila, which is obviously another country.
00:34:14.800 -->
00:34:22.559From a lot of your posts, I see you know push for globalization in terms of tapping into global tenant, global customers, as clubs as we can.
00:34:22.719 -->
00:34:28.480I guess like uh, you know, working with people in different cultures and societies where things are very different over there.
00:34:28.880 -->
00:34:34.559What sort of tips would you give to other founders, child managers, or just teams out there, you know?
00:34:34.880 -->
00:34:49.280Yeah, look, I think you need to start off from a place of humility that it's very easy, especially from a Western perspective, and once education kicks in, and supposedly the Enlightenment in the 1800s in Europe occurred.
00:34:50.320 -->
00:35:03.039That this notion of hey, we have science and we we we we we we use the scientific process to break things down, and um that is the best way, and it arguably it is the best way, right?
00:35:03.280 -->
00:35:12.639But other cultures look at problems differently, they are in different stages of maturity, they are in different geographies, they have different political environments.
00:35:12.800 -->
00:35:14.079Um I'll give you an example.
00:35:14.239 -->
00:35:24.000So we were rolling out our HR policy in Canva, and Australia is a progressive country, and so Canva is a highly progressive company.
00:35:24.239 -->
00:35:29.360We wanted to make sure that parental leave allowed for same-sex relationships.
00:35:29.519 -->
00:35:40.079And I was just about to roll out to other countries, and fortunately I just checked with the other countries that hey, one of the countries that we're rolling out to, hey, we have this clause.
00:35:40.159 -->
00:35:40.800What do you think?
00:35:40.960 -->
00:35:49.519And I was fortunate that I had enough about me to just like this seems to be this is a delicate thing, and let me just check how this would go down, right?
00:35:49.679 -->
00:35:56.159And then listen to them and and meet people where they're at, maybe more advanced, maybe less advanced, whatever it is.
00:35:56.400 -->
00:35:59.280Meet a culture and a people where they're at.
00:35:59.440 -->
00:36:08.239So I think it's staying humble and open to different cultures and different frames of reference without coming from a top-down perspective.
00:36:08.480 -->
00:36:09.519That goes a long way.
00:36:09.679 -->
00:36:23.599Understanding that people look at hierarchy, communication styles, compensation, relationships at work, as in professional relationships at work, they perceive the uh hierarchy of where work kicks in differently.
00:36:23.760 -->
00:36:25.599All of these things are different, right?
00:36:25.760 -->
00:36:42.000And the ideal thing is to identify a leader or a group of leaders in the overseas country who are powerful bridges across cultures, and so that they understand, hey, this is the culture we have, say in Canvas at Tascos.
00:36:42.159 -->
00:36:45.679Yeah, and this is the intention of the culture.
00:36:45.920 -->
00:36:56.559How do we, for these reasons, how do we translate that intentionality and that output and behavior in the country that you're leading?
00:36:56.719 -->
00:37:03.280And the way that happens is by flying them over, spending time, going for walks, breakfasts, etc.
00:37:03.679 -->
00:37:06.719Do you understand me and us and who we are?
00:37:06.880 -->
00:37:08.559And you're part of us, great.
00:37:08.639 -->
00:37:09.440You're bought in.
00:37:09.840 -->
00:37:14.159Okay, go and extend, and let's have an open channel to keep learning.
00:37:14.239 -->
00:37:15.760And you know what would be even cooler?
00:37:15.920 -->
00:37:23.039If I came over too, so that when you tell me, hey, this is how this needs to look in wherever, I'm like, ah, yeah, I get you.
00:37:23.199 -->
00:37:23.760I understand.
00:37:24.000 -->
00:37:24.800Right, right.
00:37:25.119 -->
00:37:35.199Essentially, it's it's going deeper, actually investing your time, effort, uh, into learning more about them, aligning with them, and putting yourself in their shoes too.
00:37:35.519 -->
00:37:45.679GFC is something I remembered you mentioned, and we kind of call today something similar to it, because there's a recession, um, technically, uh in some places.
00:37:45.840 -->
00:37:52.079Uh, and so what I've observed, it's just an observation, so it might not be entirely true.
00:37:52.320 -->
00:38:04.719But I feel like a lot of companies during COVID when there was no recession during that particular time, companies weren't really focused on return on investment, rather growth at all at all cost.
00:38:05.360 -->
00:38:13.119And now they're a lot more commercially driven, which has led to layoffs, which has led to tougher decisions when it comes to hiring.
00:38:13.280 -->
00:38:22.559I guess when it comes to lessons you may have learned from GFC, any similarities, because we're in a place where there's a massive amount of uncertainty.
00:38:22.639 -->
00:38:27.440You've got Trump there who could smash a tariff, you've got a potential war that could be happening XYZ.
00:38:27.519 -->
00:38:34.320And then you look at the US dollar right now, it's one NZD is about 66, which is the lowest in how long?
00:38:34.480 -->
00:38:36.559Ten years ago, it was 80 something.
00:38:36.800 -->
00:38:43.760So there's a lot of uncertainty in a lot of places for probably a lot of founders and a lot of you know uh you know company owners too.
00:38:44.000 -->
00:39:02.400So if you were to kind of like compare the two and give any advice for people that are either going through layoffs or having to do it and reluctantly having to do it because commercial, like you mentioned, at the end of the day, a business is supposed to provide value to the end user at the end of the day, whatever maybe group of end users, whatever it may be.
00:39:02.559 -->
00:39:04.320How would you guide them to go through all that?
00:39:04.639 -->
00:39:06.320Yeah, look, it's a really good question.
00:39:06.480 -->
00:39:15.039I've been in this situation before where it's just like we've spent, we've blown money and and and then create what it runway so short.
00:39:15.199 -->
00:39:16.159Uh it goes back.
00:39:16.239 -->
00:39:20.639The the way to prevent it is to have founders who are customer and problem focused.
00:39:20.719 -->
00:39:26.320And all the phase one founders, we it was it was merely attrition.
00:39:26.480 -->
00:39:39.039If you didn't believe in that, you just couldn't be, you just you would struggle to be part of phase one community, which is the reason why they're winning so much is because they all know that salvation for them is found in the customer.
00:39:39.360 -->
00:39:45.519That's that's the only person who's gonna really truly solve your problems because that's the point of existence.
00:39:45.760 -->
00:39:56.000So I'd say that if if you have a venture or a startup that isn't where the founders aren't customer problem obsessed, you're probably gonna have an issue.
00:39:56.159 -->
00:39:58.159Like there's like no ways around this.
00:39:58.320 -->
00:40:05.519Like you're nearly better off if you're looking at the business or you're joining the business, like just take a win and get out.
00:40:05.599 -->
00:40:11.199Because you're not like you're gonna make decisions that aren't relevant to the customer and market.
00:40:11.679 -->
00:40:17.760So every single human being in my well, the vast majority of human beings want to empire build.
00:40:17.920 -->
00:40:18.800What do I mean by that?
00:40:18.880 -->
00:40:20.800Well, if I have one more of this, I'll be better.
00:40:20.880 -->
00:40:22.000If I have one more of this, better.
00:40:22.079 -->
00:40:23.519If I have two more people, I'll be better.
00:40:23.599 -->
00:40:25.599If I'll just but there's this work needs to be done.
00:40:25.679 -->
00:40:26.320That works needs to be.
00:40:26.480 -->
00:40:31.119I feel I just feel more and more secure with this five more people in design.
00:40:31.199 -->
00:40:34.239I feel more secure if six more people are in marketing.
00:40:34.320 -->
00:40:36.719I feel more secure if we have that much more engineers.
00:40:36.960 -->
00:40:38.559So two things.
00:40:38.719 -->
00:40:42.400If you have founders, a customer problem obsessed and market obsessed.
00:40:42.639 -->
00:40:49.119If they're not, okay, it's nearly binary in regards to how things are gonna work out, in my opinion, in my experience.
00:40:49.360 -->
00:40:52.480But people, if you have founders who aren't, win, get out.
00:40:52.559 -->
00:40:54.719Like get out, like get the win, get out.
00:40:54.800 -->
00:41:02.880Because you can't actually build something that kind of works and kind of love for a certain period of time and it just kind of surges for a bit, but it's hard to keep sustaining it.
00:41:02.960 -->
00:41:07.360Like Mel and Cliff, Mel is customer and problem obsessed.
00:41:08.320 -->
00:41:12.079She is she will keep solving problems, right?
00:41:12.159 -->
00:41:14.079She's desperate to keep delivering.
00:41:14.320 -->
00:41:17.599So the second point is everybody wants to empire build.
00:41:17.760 -->
00:41:20.079Every person, every leader, every manager, right?
00:41:20.400 -->
00:41:22.559Not everyone, but let's assume they want to.
00:41:22.719 -->
00:41:23.920So just check that.
00:41:24.079 -->
00:41:35.280And as you scale and become bigger, probably only 20% of your venture at any given point is truly creating value, and 80% is supporting it, and it's a little bit of fluff.
00:41:35.440 -->
00:41:37.119And that's just the way it's going to be.
00:41:37.280 -->
00:41:40.960So cultivating a culture of leanness is very powerful.
00:41:41.119 -->
00:41:41.760I'd say, yeah.
00:41:41.920 -->
00:41:43.360So just those two things.
00:41:43.519 -->
00:41:46.320Um, and this is one huge advantage for New Zealand.
00:41:46.480 -->
00:41:52.639New Zealand businesses, naturally, because we're an island nation, are culturally lined up to be lean.
00:41:52.800 -->
00:41:58.400The issue with that initial orientation is it means we also aren't we can take big bets.
00:41:58.559 -->
00:42:06.480So the ideal circumstance is so I back Kiwi founders who end up in the US playing a global game because oh wow, big market.
00:42:06.559 -->
00:42:07.440Oh, we're lean.
00:42:07.599 -->
00:42:08.000Amazing.
00:42:08.239 -->
00:42:09.679Would you just opinion?
00:42:09.760 -->
00:42:11.039And it's totally off topic.
00:42:11.119 -->
00:42:21.840There's America, which is, again, like a market which has got a decent salary, but let's just say you've got markets like India, China, Indonesia, where a certain group have got a decent median salary.
00:42:22.000 -->
00:42:28.000If we were to target that and try and understand their customers, what sort of advice would you give to founders out there?
00:42:28.320 -->
00:42:29.199Yeah, good question.
00:42:29.360 -->
00:42:34.000You either have to go there or you need a senior leader or partner from that country.
00:42:34.159 -->
00:42:35.199That's pretty simple.
00:42:35.360 -->
00:42:36.639Like it's one of those two things.
00:42:36.880 -->
00:42:44.800You don't understand a country's and a culture's priorities until you spend time with them and you go.
00:42:44.960 -->
00:42:46.320Like I remember this.
00:42:46.480 -->
00:42:58.639So during my NBA uh class, you'd have the Germans and the northern Europeans, Scandinavians, they would come five to ten minutes early for every meeting.
00:42:58.719 -->
00:43:05.760And you'd have people from tropical environments like India and other places come to a meeting three to five minutes late.
00:43:05.920 -->
00:43:08.079And they would always argue, right?
00:43:08.320 -->
00:43:11.920Because the the Europeans would be like, you don't value me.
00:43:12.079 -->
00:43:13.519Like, you don't value my time.
00:43:13.679 -->
00:43:17.199And the Indians would be like, like, you don't value me.
00:43:17.280 -->
00:43:18.639Uh don't we have a relationship?
00:43:18.800 -->
00:43:20.480Why are you making this such a big deal?
00:43:20.639 -->
00:43:27.760And I realized when I actually did a stint in Mumbai for six months, Mumbai chewed me up and spit me out.
00:43:27.840 -->
00:43:33.679Okay, I was like, okay, I'm not Indian and I don't know how like I have some I have strong cultural values, but like far out, man.
00:43:33.920 -->
00:43:36.079Like, I do not understand how this thing works.
00:43:36.320 -->
00:43:38.480You can't get to anywhere on time in India.
00:43:38.639 -->
00:43:39.360You can't.
00:43:39.519 -->
00:43:40.559You just can't.
00:43:40.800 -->
00:43:44.079Like, there's monsoons, there's potholes, there's the infrastructure's crap.
00:43:44.159 -->
00:43:51.280I was like, this is where people are late because like they are like behaviorally, they're like, we can't get to anywhere on time.
00:43:51.360 -->
00:43:55.840So as long as I know you and you know me and we know each other, and like I got you, right?
00:43:56.079 -->
00:44:07.039While in temperate climates in Europe where it's discreet for whatever reason, because of weather, etc., good roads have been built, resources you can get to everywhere out.
00:44:07.519 -->
00:44:08.800There is no reason.
00:44:08.960 -->
00:44:13.440And in fact, the weather's pretty crappy, so I want to make sure of whatever time I have.
00:44:13.599 -->
00:44:15.599I don't want to, I don't want to fool around with this.
00:44:15.840 -->
00:44:21.920We make a meeting, so my time, I have enough sunlight or thing with my family or whatever it is, it's precious.
00:44:22.079 -->
00:44:27.360So, and you don't understand that until you spend time, you're like, that's true.
00:44:27.599 -->
00:44:29.840This is why you're behaving this way, right?
00:44:30.000 -->
00:44:36.320It's not a surface level judgment, it's a deeper level of understanding of why you're behaving this way.
00:44:36.639 -->
00:44:42.880Makes a lot of sense as to why you should be in the place, again, aligning with your customers, stepping to their footsteps.
00:44:43.039 -->
00:44:49.679But one thing I wanted to tap into, which would, you know, uh a level of product is I assume something which is a strong product market fit.
00:44:49.840 -->
00:44:51.440Throughout the years, things change.
00:44:51.599 -->
00:44:53.360It might be a level of product today.
00:44:53.599 -->
00:45:02.960Maybe the customers might not exist at all two years from now, three years from now, completely abolished because it's probably, you know, trying to think of an example.
00:45:03.039 -->
00:45:06.480I'm not able to think of an example right now, but I think you kind of get my point.
00:45:06.639 -->
00:45:09.679What do you suggest companies to do at that particular time?
00:45:09.760 -->
00:45:19.679And then at the same time, the founder kind of has to go and pitch not to new customers, or maybe any product to the same customers, but also to their team as well, to get that confidence back.
00:45:20.079 -->
00:45:22.639Hey, we're building something and there there is alignment.
00:45:22.800 -->
00:45:24.719What kind of suggestions would you have for that?
00:45:24.960 -->
00:45:26.719Yeah, uh, I've mentioned this.
00:45:26.800 -->
00:45:32.079So I don't make judgments on this customer is worth that, that customer is worth that.
00:45:32.239 -->
00:45:35.280I make an assessment if a founder is customer obsessed.
00:45:35.519 -->
00:45:45.360Do they show behavior of customer obsession when they could pick and choose between where they spent their time, do they want to go spend time with the customer and listen to their problems, solve their problems?
00:45:45.599 -->
00:46:03.199Because once you pick up that behavior, and once you trust that that is the most powerful orientation as a leader you can have culturally, whether the way you talk, the way you act, the way you behave, the way you put your resources, it is so that we can do a better job for the customer.
00:46:03.440 -->
00:46:07.760Once an a leader has built that orientation, I trust that.
00:46:08.000 -->
00:46:19.119So it doesn't matter if the customer changes, it doesn't matter if the customer transforms, because their framework, internal framework, is understand a customer, like obsess about a customer.
00:46:19.360 -->
00:46:20.400Okay, customers change.
00:46:20.480 -->
00:46:21.199Okay, fine.
00:46:21.360 -->
00:46:25.280I've got to put in a year and a half, two years on the choir, maybe not winning.
00:46:25.440 -->
00:46:28.000If I spend time, I truly believe that.
00:46:28.480 -->
00:46:44.079In in everything I do, like the only thing that I trust, not the only thing, the thing that I trust and that I'm willing to build something on, whether it be in the private sector or in the public sector and the political pieces, what do what do people want?
00:46:44.239 -->
00:46:45.920Like understand that foundation.
00:46:46.079 -->
00:46:48.719Do you have a rock solid foundation on that?
00:46:48.960 -->
00:46:50.559Then okay, that's good.
00:46:50.719 -->
00:46:55.840Because say things change, I don't go make a change here, I go make a change here in my connections.
00:46:56.559 -->
00:46:58.639You need to go find another customer, go find another customer.
00:46:58.719 -->
00:47:00.480Oh, but we don't know that it's gonna take two years.
00:47:00.639 -->
00:47:01.840Okay, it's gonna take two years.
00:47:02.000 -->
00:47:02.480Makes sense.
00:47:02.639 -->
00:47:14.000And then I I guess like when it comes to like still the employees, like, say, for example, your engineers and um, you know, probably your product managers, marketing managers too, because you're changing direction when you change your set of ICPs.
00:47:14.159 -->
00:47:17.119So when that's done, there's a bit of chaos at that particular time.
00:47:17.280 -->
00:47:29.280So how do you calm the storm, even though the founder might have strong conviction and they believe wholeheartedly because they've, again, they've had the one-on-ones with customers, they've also gone through their shoes and really understand it left center according to them.
00:47:29.440 -->
00:47:38.159But then you've also got to, you know, sell it to your team as well and sort of get them in alignment as well, instead of just pitching, but rather, you know, bring them to be a part of it.
00:47:38.320 -->
00:47:45.840Because you mentioned two years, two years of probably no wins, but rather development of what it may be for that particular time.
00:47:46.079 -->
00:47:49.360How how do you keep that team in alignment?
00:47:49.760 -->
00:47:51.760Not alignment, but how are you gonna keep the team together?
00:47:51.840 -->
00:47:52.000Right?
00:47:52.320 -->
00:47:53.039That's what's wrong, yeah.
00:47:53.119 -->
00:47:53.280Yep.
00:47:53.440 -->
00:47:53.679Yeah.
00:47:53.920 -->
00:47:55.440You're not, you're not going to.
00:47:55.679 -->
00:48:02.719Unless like Elon Musk can, Steve Jobs could have, Mark Zuckerberg can, Melanie Perkins can, because they have a track record.
00:48:02.880 -->
00:48:09.199Peter Beck can, like when he says something and he says something a little bit different, and he gets he gets it done.
00:48:09.360 -->
00:48:10.000He delivers.
00:48:10.320 -->
00:48:11.840Okay, I'll take a bet on that.
00:48:12.000 -->
00:48:14.000If you don't have that, you're gonna lose people.
00:48:14.239 -->
00:48:23.039And that's just the way it is, because it is a precious privilege to ask people, team members, to trust their lives with you.
00:48:23.199 -->
00:48:27.920And different people have different constraints, and not everybody's gonna be able to do that.
00:48:28.079 -->
00:48:31.599I've got a mortgage to pay, I've got this, I've got kids, I've got that one, right?
00:48:31.760 -->
00:48:35.920And I can't, I can't, I can't take this risk.
00:48:36.159 -->
00:48:38.559There's an opportunity cost in regards to what I'm doing.
00:48:38.639 -->
00:48:39.280How do I know?
00:48:39.440 -->
00:48:41.760You communicate extremely well.
00:48:41.920 -->
00:48:44.880You understand that you can never communicate enough.
00:48:45.039 -->
00:48:48.159That is a truism that people are gonna misunderstand.
00:48:48.320 -->
00:48:55.199You make sure that you're super clear and you have high conviction, and that what you say, you say you'll do, you follow through.
00:48:55.280 -->
00:48:58.239And even then, there are many things you're not gonna be able to follow through.
00:48:58.320 -->
00:49:03.679And when you're not able to follow through, you own it, you apologize, you can't do it too much, but it'll happen.
00:49:03.760 -->
00:49:08.880And even after doing all of that, people are like, hey man, like, nah, I can't, like, can't.
00:49:09.039 -->
00:49:12.480So you're gonna lose people, and then you're gonna have to build back up from ground zero.
00:49:12.719 -->
00:49:17.840Yeah, I assume accepting that and going with the flow is probably the best, the best way.
00:49:18.239 -->
00:49:18.880Yeah, yeah.
00:49:18.960 -->
00:49:28.480And and obviously you can mitigate this significantly with clarity, conviction, and incredible levels of communication.
00:49:28.719 -->
00:49:29.679And you have to.
00:49:29.840 -->
00:49:30.400You have to.
00:49:30.559 -->
00:49:34.320It is the least these team members who are following you deserve.
00:49:34.480 -->
00:49:36.880But the truth is, there'll be many who'll be like, no.
00:49:37.039 -->
00:49:39.280And in many ways, that's not a bad thing.
00:49:39.440 -->
00:49:43.599Because then those who carry on with you, they have an irrational connection.
00:49:43.760 -->
00:49:46.400They're able to take the changes even more.
00:49:47.119 -->
00:49:48.000Makes a lot of sense.
00:49:48.159 -->
00:49:59.199And I guess when it comes to slightly bigger companies, like you know, with with an employee count, I guess, of 40, 30 less, you might be able to know everyone one-to-one as a founder or all that.
00:49:59.280 -->
00:50:05.760But slightly larger companies, like, say, for example, how you took, you know, a tasker from its count to 200.
00:50:06.000 -->
00:50:19.760In a situation like that, when you're at that level and you're needing to do a change, suppose not big, but it does require, um, you know, not require, but rather gives the illusion that there is a big change happening and the entire company's changing.
00:50:19.920 -->
00:50:25.519In a situation like that, what recommendations would you have for the entire team, not just the founder?
00:50:25.840 -->
00:50:30.960Look, if you join a high-growth startup, and people are more mature about this, they're definitely mature about this in the US.
00:50:31.199 -->
00:50:34.400Certainly they they have more maturity in New Zealand's a few steps back.
00:50:34.559 -->
00:50:38.000A startup's something that integral 5% can look changes part of the game.
00:50:38.159 -->
00:50:39.199And I think so.
00:50:39.280 -->
00:50:42.320One when more and more people in the market get that, sure.
00:50:42.559 -->
00:50:44.639Why why why is that kind of change okay?
00:50:44.800 -->
00:50:45.840Because you're gonna grow, right?
00:50:45.920 -->
00:50:47.840You're gonna try things, you're gonna experiment, you're gonna learn.
00:50:48.000 -->
00:50:57.039So you're compromising a level of stability, not stability, a bit a a level of status quoness to for growth.
00:50:57.280 -->
00:50:57.599Right.
00:50:58.400 -->
00:51:00.960Um, so it's one, it's that lesson.
00:51:01.039 -->
00:51:03.519Two leaders communicating, hey, things are gonna change.
00:51:03.599 -->
00:51:05.840Things are gonna break, things are gonna especially early on.
00:51:06.079 -->
00:51:07.840The more mature it is, the less things change.
00:51:07.920 -->
00:51:11.440Let's less more, more, more, more anti-fragile a businesses.
00:51:12.000 -->
00:51:16.400Um, and then people should join startups because they want to grow and learn.
00:51:16.800 -->
00:51:18.960If you don't want that, then don't.
00:51:19.360 -->
00:51:20.159And there's nothing wrong.
00:51:20.320 -->
00:51:22.000You're not a better person, you're a worse person.
00:51:22.079 -->
00:51:22.719No, none of that.
00:51:22.800 -->
00:51:29.679Like if if for you you don't want to take those kind of risks and have that kind of volatility in your life, don't.
00:51:29.840 -->
00:51:34.239Uh uh a job at BNZ is great, perfect, it's a good life, etc.
00:51:34.480 -->
00:51:36.880Being part of Canva and AirTask and all these other things.
00:51:36.960 -->
00:51:37.679It's hectic.
00:51:37.840 -->
00:51:38.159Right.
00:51:38.320 -->
00:51:43.039And I have definitely paid a price for it, but it's conscious.
00:51:43.119 -->
00:51:47.760And I've learned and I've grown and I understand how things work because of the experiences that I have.
00:51:48.079 -->
00:51:54.400When you say it's conscious, I guess the reason why I want to bring it up is suppose we've got other people that want to join startups too.
00:51:54.559 -->
00:52:12.639And sometimes they misinterpret it because they watch a movie or they hear about Silicon Valley where there's like awesome rooms and all that, and everyone's having a lot of fun and it's awesome culture, but then there's also, you know, a lot of negativity at times, and then sometimes times where you need to just pull it together, or you know, things are all over the place.
00:52:12.960 -->
00:52:18.159When you said you consciously understood, what sort of advice would you give to those employees that are taking a punt on a startup?
00:52:18.400 -->
00:52:24.960I mean, i i hopefully a theme that's been consistent through this conversation is grappling with your why.
00:52:25.119 -->
00:52:29.679It's very hard as university students and and mentor students and young people.
00:52:29.920 -->
00:52:33.280And it's definitely a challenge to grapple with your why.
00:52:33.440 -->
00:52:42.239And the paradoxical thing is that the more optionality and resource you have around you, the less you have to grapple with your why.
00:52:42.480 -->
00:52:49.519When you become very clear about what it is you're about and what you're trying to achieve when you don't have resources.
00:52:49.760 -->
00:52:52.320Because I've got X amount of resources, I've got one shot.
00:52:52.480 -->
00:52:53.760I have to be super clear.
00:52:54.000 -->
00:53:11.440I would urge any person joining a startup to have gone through some story in their lives where leanness and significant constraints and a lack of optionality has occurred because that allows like internal clarity.
00:53:11.840 -->
00:53:13.039That's what I'm here to achieve.
00:53:13.199 -->
00:53:18.719One of the, like I said, paradoxical things of people who are highly skilled, highly educated is they have optionality.
00:53:18.880 -->
00:53:24.159And optionality is a surefire way of optionality distracts from clarity.
00:53:24.800 -->
00:53:25.119Do I do this?
00:53:25.199 -->
00:53:25.599Do I do this?
00:53:25.840 -->
00:53:26.320No, no, no.
00:53:27.519 -->
00:53:28.000What do you want?
00:53:28.159 -->
00:53:29.199Oh, I don't know what I want.
00:53:29.280 -->
00:53:30.960Well, why don't you form a hypothesis?
00:53:31.360 -->
00:53:32.000But I could do this.
00:53:32.079 -->
00:53:32.719No, no, no, no.
00:53:32.880 -->
00:53:33.679Just no, no.
00:53:33.920 -->
00:53:35.440It's all gonna end at some point.
00:53:36.079 -->
00:53:37.84070-80, what's the story?
00:53:37.920 -->
00:53:38.079Okay.
00:53:39.280 -->
00:53:39.840What's the story?
00:53:40.000 -->
00:53:41.039Okay, what's the story?
00:53:41.199 -->
00:53:42.000What's the story?
00:53:42.239 -->
00:53:45.039Have a hypothesis around this.
00:53:45.360 -->
00:53:46.079Makes a lot of sense.
00:53:46.320 -->
00:53:46.800Certainly does.
00:53:46.880 -->
00:53:57.199And like you mentioned, there's some people who want a certain exit or want to earn a certain amount of money, but then when you ask them why do you want to earn that certain amount of money, it's to have a certain lifestyle or be somewhere.
00:53:57.280 -->
00:53:57.840That why?
00:53:57.920 -->
00:53:59.280Again, makes a lot of sense.
00:53:59.519 -->
00:54:02.880Would you it's it's probably gonna be a silly question, but I'll ask anyway.
00:54:02.960 -->
00:54:04.559The so-called culture-fit interviews.
00:54:04.719 -->
00:54:10.800Would you previously can other companies, even suggest other companies as well, to ask that question?
00:54:10.960 -->
00:54:11.840What's your why?
00:54:12.159 -->
00:54:17.440No, I I mean I don't I definitely don't ask it to form an assessment on their why.
00:54:17.599 -->
00:54:19.519I ask it yeah, it's a good point.
00:54:19.679 -->
00:54:23.519I ask it seeking whether you're grappling with it.
00:54:23.599 -->
00:54:25.599And if you're grappling with it, that's kind of good enough.
00:54:26.079 -->
00:54:26.960That makes a lot of sense.
00:54:27.119 -->
00:54:32.000Um so you're talking about phase one, which you started um a couple of years ago.
00:54:32.159 -->
00:54:47.360You know, before we end this podcast, I'd love to learn a little bit more about it, and I guess like things you've learned, you know, building that community, investing in startups and all that, and you know, what you think other New Zealand businesses out there could sort of entail and also do within their companies.
00:54:47.599 -->
00:54:47.840Yeah.
00:54:48.079 -->
00:54:50.000A phase one was starting in the living room.
00:54:50.159 -->
00:54:52.960Like many things I do, I like grassroots.
00:54:53.039 -->
00:54:55.519I don't go top down, I go bottom up.
00:54:56.079 -->
00:54:57.519Because I trust bottom-up.
00:54:58.480 -->
00:55:03.519Um, in a living room, I used to get a whole bunch of founders together and just give them advice and guidance and support.
00:55:03.599 -->
00:55:05.679And and I did it for free for five years.
00:55:05.840 -->
00:55:18.559And around these principles of customer obsession and market obsession above everything else, it nearly all I did was, hey guys, I kinda know how to help you out with all the problems you're facing, but the one thing, go to the customer.
00:55:18.800 -->
00:55:19.679Mahesh, blah blah blah blah.
00:55:19.760 -->
00:55:20.480No, no, no, customer.
00:55:20.559 -->
00:55:23.119Mahesh, what about this no no no no no no customer?
00:55:23.280 -->
00:55:23.519Right.
00:55:23.679 -->
00:55:25.199That's pretty much all I did.
00:55:25.519 -->
00:55:37.920And I I I think because it I was very clear about my why and what I was doing this for, it pulled together founders who were up for a certain level of growth and success.
00:55:38.079 -->
00:55:41.840And then that community just pulled in other people of that community.
00:55:41.920 -->
00:55:44.320So I was very clear from day one why I was doing it.
00:55:44.400 -->
00:55:48.320I've been on public record saying I expect six unicorns to come from phase one.
00:55:48.480 -->
00:55:49.440And I absolutely do.
00:55:49.599 -->
00:55:53.360People are starting to be conscious about the success of the phase one community.
00:55:53.519 -->
00:56:02.079But in about, I'd say two, three years, my hope and my expectation is that there will be a multitude of articles talking about wait, what what happened?
00:56:02.239 -->
00:56:06.320What is what what is this like thing that has delivered so much growth?
00:56:06.559 -->
00:56:17.119You've got to be US first if you want to build a powerful startup or any large one single cohesive market like China idea, US legislation and legalities, legalities rather, work.
00:56:17.280 -->
00:56:22.719Um, US first is best, customer obsessed, problem obsessed, is the founder grappling with their why?
00:56:22.880 -->
00:56:29.119Do they understand that the investor and VC game is a completely separate game that requires its own like year and a half of tutelage?
00:56:29.280 -->
00:56:29.440Yeah.
00:56:29.599 -->
00:56:35.920If you do those things and you're willing to spend two to three, two years grinding to really understand the customer.
00:56:36.079 -->
00:56:36.239Okay.
00:56:36.480 -->
00:56:37.039Good to go.
00:56:37.280 -->
00:56:37.599Right.
00:56:37.840 -->
00:56:38.320Right.
00:56:38.559 -->
00:56:40.079No, that sounds awesome.
00:56:40.239 -->
00:56:47.440And uh I guess the best way to solve economy crisis is to generate more jobs, and that's done by again exporting ourselves.
00:56:47.599 -->
00:56:49.760We don't want to export humans, we want to export value.
00:56:50.000 -->
00:56:50.880That's exactly right.
00:56:51.039 -->
00:56:52.800I uh I couldn't have said it better.
00:56:52.960 -->
00:56:54.639But that was the point of all of this.
00:56:54.800 -->
00:56:58.239I mean, to be fair, when I started it, I didn't know if it would work.
00:56:58.320 -->
00:57:04.239Like, you know, I had my stories and experience and first principles that I picked up as a founder, Canva, air task, all of this stuff.
00:57:04.320 -->
00:57:05.519So I'm like connecting the dots.
00:57:05.599 -->
00:57:07.760I'm like, I think this is what I should do.
00:57:07.920 -->
00:57:10.800So I'm glad that my hypothesis has worked out.
00:57:10.960 -->
00:57:11.440It's awesome.
00:57:11.679 -->
00:57:14.079Ash, thank you so much for coming onto the podcast.
00:57:14.159 -->
00:57:15.599Um, letting me pick your brain.
00:57:15.920 -->
00:57:17.039Thank you so much for the opportunity.
