00:00:01
Speaker 1: The volume.
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Speaker 2: This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight Fire for Tuesday, August twenty second. Got some great topics today as we slowly get to the end of August, we're limping to the start of the NFL season inside three weeks to play. College football shockingly starts this weekend. So tomorrow we've got a great college football guest booked. He came on by demand. You guys asked for him last year. We gave it to you. He's good on college football. I'll save you the name, so we'll keep some suspense for tomorrow. And no great games this weekend. I saw Notre Dames in action, but they're playing somebody their favorite heavily over and the games don't start in earnest until Labor Day weekend. All right, let's quickly get to We got two topics that I love today. I'm just give a little warning and advance the second topic. It's near and dear to my heart because it's involving Steph Curry, and the other side of the coin is near and dear to rob GE's heart. He is a big Laker guy now I'm also a Laker guy. I'm just wondering it could get testy given some of the chatter before the podcast listen. Obviously, Rob and I like each other. I think the topic will be fun. But we got to start in the NFL with Joe Montana, who was, by many accounts of the greatest quarterback in NFL history until Tom Brady took that mantle from him. I don't know if Brady stole it with the Seattle Super Bowl where the Seahawks had the best defense in the league and Brady went the length of the field twice in the fourth quarter touchdowns. It might have been that comeback against the Falcons where they were getting smashed and they pull off an amazing comeback and win in overtime. But either way, Tom Brady eclipsed Montana as the greatest quarterback of all time. When I think Joe Montana, besides the Leonard Marshall hit that pretty much ended his career in San France and ended up sending him to the Chiefs, I think just Joe Montana, like making it look easy, drop back, clean pocket all the time. Jerry Rice John Taylor, who was the Titan Brent Selick now he might have been with the Steve Young teams. Who was that tight end Rob g a lumbering, large white guy with the Niners back in the day. Do you know his name?
00:02:27
Speaker 1: I do not, but I can look it up while you're talking.
00:02:29
Speaker 2: You look it up. So bottom line is Montana classic drop back guy. And then they.
00:02:33
Speaker 1: Pivoted Dwight and Clark.
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Speaker 2: Dwight Clark, thank you had the amazing catch against the Cowboys in the back of the end, zes whit Clark. But I think that Montana in the pocket quarterback era right in the eighties, you didn't have your quarterbacks running back then. The one outlier was like late eighties. I think maybe in the early nineties Randall Cunningham. He was just electric, taking crazy hits, elusive and you're like, Wow, this guy's amazing. And then the Niners ended up pivoting from Montana to Steve Young, and a little bit after that you had Michael Vick and then the floodgates kind of open and you've got this totally diverse set of skills at quarterback. Cam Newton with Carolina getting to a Super Bowl and now all the elite quarterbacks in the league not only win from the pocket, but really are dangerous because they're mobile, and that's just not something that happened in the Montana era. Phil Simms drop back in the court, three step drop, four step drop, boom boom, go through the progressions carving up these defenses. And Montana did an interview with USA Today this week promoting something or other with Joe Burrow, and of course because it was a promotional thing, you know, they got to hype up whatever they're promoting. They didn't pay us, so we're not promoting it. Buried at the end of the story, literally the last quote in the story, Joe Montana says quarterbacks that win consistently now win from the pocket. And it's one of those quotes that might be overlooked by a lot of people, but anyone who's been following the league for the last three years and watches trends and sees what's going on with the stats knows that that's just not factually correct. The best quarterbacks in the NFL right now consistently threatened teams with their feet. I don't know which website had the advanced stat that it was rob but it was essentially saying that the most effective play in the NFL. Is not a handoff, it's not a drop back. It's a quarterback running the football. Now, obviously there is massive variance with what's gonna be the outcome. Is the quarterback at a fumble, is he gonna take a massive hit and go down and get injured. But more often than not, these defenses are dropping back the too high shell. We're gonna drop back, and the quarterback, hey, I'm not gonna make a mistake. I'm gonna go ahead and take six, seven, eight yards. And then you're setting yourself up for like a second in three and on second three, the entire playbook is open, you know. And that's you want to set yourself up on first down with a throw so you can set up a lot of other options on second and short. You don't want to consistently hand off like Joe Montana did back in the day to Roger Craig, he gets stuffed on first down out second and nine, playbook shrinks considerably. Defense has an idea what's coming. You're most likely not running again on second now when it's second and eight, second and nine. So this is just the new advanced stats in the NFL. This is probably the last five six years now, and it's another reason running backs are slightly being devalued. I know a lot of people don't like that I put up the air quotes for devalue. But if you look at Patrick Mahomes, you can't just say, well, he's an outlier jay No, No, he's not. Josh Allen, who has not been to a Super Bowl but is tremendous and is a franchise quarterback and is one of the highest PAI players in the league and as an MVP candidate, is a massive threat because of the ability to run the football. Jalen hurts went from a running quarterback to oh, now I've got aj Brown. I come from the pocket and I can run. And Jalen Hurtson only won the MVP last year. Justin Herbert, if you're building a quarterback in a lab, that's what you want. Six or five can drop back, make any pass on the field to any place in the field. He'll make it rain into a bucket forty yards down the field in the window that the quarterbacks can't touch it. And oh, by the way, Justin Herbert is extremely long legged and fast and nimble and could take hits. Now he did take a hit last year in the Ribs, remember which kind of rattled their mid season, So you've got to be careful with that. But his ability to do both keeps defenses consistently guessing. You're not losing sleep at night when you're facing an at least in twenty twenty three, when you're just facing a pocket quarterback. Now you're like Jay name somebody. The problem is, I'm looking around the league and almost every quarterback in the top fifteen has a running element. If you're really looking at a guy who is mostly pocket, I would say, and maybe Ron could find a better example, is Kirk Cousins is the phos pocket quarterback out there? Now? Are you losing sleep if you're a defensive coordinator over Kirk Cousins or you more worried about Justin Jefferson going for twelve and two hundred yards and two touchdowns. I don't know. People are trying to make the case that Joe Burrow's extremely pocket. I kind of disagree with that. You know, you look at some of the playoff games. He's winning with his legs, some big third downs against the Bills in that playoff game. He had a great running game against the Chiefs, in the AFC Tititle game. I think he had four rushes thirty yards. This is the guy who was a point guard on his AU team and was like, maybe gonna be a college basketball like low d One guy like, I don't consider him just a pocket quarterback. He's about a scramble. His elusiveness Joe Burrow is amazing. What's been interesting is Montana's comments come kind of at the end of an era. Right. Look at these quarterbacks from the Oos and the teams I guess if you will, who were almost exclusive pocket quarterbacks and dominated the league. Eli Manning extremely pocket, Philip Rivers had no wheels whatsoever. Tom Brady obviously wins a lot of Super Bowls. Peyton Manning strictly pocket, Drew Brees strictly pocket a lot of success. The league has changed. You've got a lot of these quarterbacks now, Rob they you know, they weren't necessarily the best quarterback. They were the best maybe athlete in sixth grade. And then you're like, oh, well, this guy's already got the athletic component. Let's see how he can read a defense, Let's see what his arm is like. And that's when the quarterbacks make the jump to light speed. So in the seven on sevens, it's like you can see the guy isn't just a pocket quarterback, He's an athlete. The old adage used to be you want an alpha back there at quarterback. I think the you know, leader guy in the huddle. Obviously you still want that, but I think you want an athlete back there in an era when defensive ends are as big and fast, as strong as we've ever seen, you know, go back and look at the eighties some of those edge rushers, with the exception of like a Lawrence Taylor, they were larger guys three hundred pounds. Defensive ends now like twoin fifty and can bend and get to the quarterback extremely faster, lighter, faster, and just as strong or stronger. So you've got to have your quarterback who's nibbling able to get out of there. So Rob, I would just totally disagree with Joe Montana. And I know Montana obviously its one a lot more than I've won at the quarterback level, you know, and that includes my backyard quarterbacking back in the day where I was obviously undefeated. But Rob, I just I disagree with the overall sentiment, and I think if your quarterback doesn't have a running element, now you're in trouble. By the way, Trevor Lawrence, remember him against Clemson against Ohio State. One of the best seventy yard touchdown runs I've ever seen for a quarterback. That run gives me goosebumps. I love watching it. And oh, by the way, the quarterback coming out now, who's said to be the best running quarterback passing quarterback since like Andrew Luck or Lawrence is Caleb Williams, who is an excellent runner. So Rob this feels like, you know, old man Montana kind of yelling at a cloud.
00:10:05
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm going to say this with all due respect. Usually when someone says with all due respect, something super disrespectful is.
00:10:11
Speaker 1: About to follow.
00:10:12
Speaker 3: But everything that Joe Montana told USA today is wrong. It is no longer correct. That line of thinking has expired in today's NFL. You brought up a lot of salient points, and I'm just gonna give people numbers. I know a lot of our listeners are very analytical. They want the facts over the feelings, kind of arguing. We get that a lot in the comments, right, So if you take out Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson because they've kind of bridged the gap between the two generations. And even then, both of those guys are probably more known for their ability to move than just much of that, but to throw the football, you know, Russell Wilson obviously more so. But what made Aaron Rodgers so special in his prime was his ability to escape, make plays on the run, fifty yard flick rolling to his right, and that's what you know, separated him from a lot of other guys. But if you just look at the quarterbacks that you would classic as a quote unquote mobile quarterback in the classic sense of the word, Patrick Mahomes is forty eight games above five hundred as a starter, Josh Allen is twenty eight games, Jalen Hurts his twelve games, Lamar Jackson is twenty nine games, Dak Prescott is twenty five games above five hundred. On the flip side, if you look at guys who are considered quote unquote pocket quarterbacks, and will even include Joe Burrow just to give these guys some kind of ammunition in the argument, Joe Burrow, as great as he is, seven games over five hundred, justin Herbert again, will give them justin Herbert because he doesn't run all that often. He can, but he doesn't do that often. One game above five hundred. Kirk Couzin is the guy you brought up nine games over five hundred, Matthew Stafford twelve games below five hundred. Like this is unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look on it, unfortunate for Joe Montana. This is the way the league is skewing. When you say, if you want the team to win consistently, the quarterback has to play mainly in the pocket, that is factually incorrect. You're holding on to visions of yourself and Tom Brady who want a certain way that just does not apply anymore. Patrick Mahomes, almost by himself, has shattered the mold of what we thought a quarterback was supposed to do. If you watch him play, and if you're a quarterback coach, and we know a few of them have come on this show and we've talked to outside of the show, they say, there's so many things that he does that you coach not to do. The no look pass, the run and throw a c back across your body, the jump pass, all these different things that they say in a classic quarterback sense you are never supposed to do. He does at a high level, and that's what makes him special. So for Joe Montana to say that you have to win from the pocket, maybe in two thousand and two, maybe even as recent as you know, twenty and twelve, but in the year twenty twenty three, that is not true.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not crapping on pocket quarterbacks. I think we talked about with the Aid and O'Connell thing. Yesterday. Nick Foles went to a super Bowl. I'll be that he just played in the playoffs. He's a pocket guy. Matt Ryan and Atlanta pocket guy went to the Super Bowl, obviously Brady, and there was Jared Goff, who is not nimble. I guess he could escape if need be, but he's a pocket guy. He went to the Super Bowl with McVeigh, and of course McVeigh pipots off him to bring in Stafford, who's got the even better arm and is a little more elusive. I don't know, would you classify Stafford as a pocket guy. I think he would be more of a pocket guy than Joe Burrow. Is that fair?
00:13:30
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:13:30
Speaker 3: But even still historically says he has a losing record. Like if you want to say, well, well, if Joe Montana wants to wants to qualify a statement and say, if you want to win super Bowls, then you have to win from the pocket, that's a better argument for him because if you would just look at historically the teams that won the Super Bowl, because Tom Brady has wont so many of them, that like fits your argument. But if you're just talking about winning football games, the guys who move around win more in the regular season than the quote unquote pocket guys.
00:13:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're being a hard on Stafford losing record like he was in Detroit, the worst franchise in I don't I think the history of the league, I don't remember the last time they got a playoff win. And it's not all Stafford's fault, like he was surrounded by ineptitude. I don't know who it was, but somebody broke down the defensive DVOA ratings of all the Stafford teams, and they were all in Detroit. I think they were like one of them might have maybe won, was top ten and the rest were all just futrid. And the year they were top ten, I think called me on it, and if I'm wrong, that's fine. I think they went to the playoffs and lost to Dallas, and I remember because there was a questionable pass interference play or Detroit was driving in the fourth quarter and there's a questionable flag that didn't go their way and they ended up losing. But they didn't have any good defensive teams in Detroit. And let's not hammer Stafford. Although I don't know if you've seen any Rams robb Gie Rams reports about the offensive line already not looking good. I'm worried about Stafford bro I like him. I think he's got I think he's got plenty left in the tank. But this could be a long year for the Rams. All right, let's get to this NBA topic real quick. And again it is late August, so we're not doing a ton of NBA. Yesterday we had obviously the USA basketball Anthony Edwards, Austin Reeves. And today Steph Curry is in the news, and yes, some people are hammering him, and that's fine. That's my guy, Curry.
00:15:21
Speaker 1: You know that.
00:15:24
Speaker 2: Steph Curry is promoting something. This is what August is about, promotional stuff. And Gilbert Arenas said, oh, I'll promote it, so he flew his podcast to wherever Curry was. I guess northern California and Gilbert Arenas. Just a quick note on me and Gilbert Arenas. The first NBA jersey I bought and Warren public was Gilbert Arena's Washington Wizards. Was it bullets or Wizard?
00:15:50
Speaker 3: It was?
00:15:50
Speaker 2: It was Wizards like twenty fourteen fifteen? Oh no, no, no, no, no, no no no. This is like twenty two thousand and five six when he was like the Hibachi before the gun incident, when he was just a scoring machine. He was so fun. Big fan of Gilbert reads. Just in case he hears this or his people send it to him. I was a huge Gilbert Renas fan. Obviously the gun thing changed things, and on this pot I gave away that you were in a jersey. That being said, he asked Curry who's the greatest point guard of all time? And Steph Curry, knowing that whatever he says is gonna go viral, he's I think been asked this question about like who are the top five shooters or the top five point guards of all time? And he usually leaves himself out or top five players, whatever it is. He leaves himself out. This time, he's like, you know what, I'm gonna take the bait. And if you watch the video, Steph Curry's like just like thinking about it, and he's staring straight forward, and after three or four seconds he goes me and you just know when he says that it's it's gonna cause a kerfuffle. He goes on to explain like within seconds, it's got to be me or magic, right, And that's obvious. We've been on that early and I can still take claim to fame. Rob you know this. Twenty seventeen, your boy went on cow Herd show the clip they clipped it off. It did monster numbers, and I said Steph Curry was the second best point guard of all time. This was way early. I think it was. Yeah, twenty seventeen, might have been twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, but all these people were like, oh, come on, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Oscar Robert I said, bleep off, guys, it's Curry. Trust me, or as my son likes to say trust, he doesn't say trust me, he just says trust. So I've been early on this, and I will also admit, yes, Curry's my favorite player of all time. Before that, it was Magic Johnson. Asked my parents anytime I was in a basketball league, I demanded, begged for Jersey thirty two. I thought I was magic. I wasn't newsflast. I was not Magic Johnson, and he was my favorite player. I had like the Lakers pennant on my wall. I guess they did penance for NBA TA whatever. I had like Magic Johnson poster either trading cards. I was a magic guy. We've discussed this a lot. Who's the best point guard career?
00:18:10
Speaker 1: Magic?
00:18:11
Speaker 2: And Curry saying himself has rob gy'all worked into a lather. And I'm just gonna say, Gilbert Aarenas made a silly argument about when I go to the playground and when I go to AAU games, everybody's emulating Steph Curry, gil Bro, what are you doing? Like that has nothing to do with who the greatest failure of all time is? Like nobody emulates Michael Jordan at the playground, nobody emulates Shack. You can't. You can only emulate Curry because he shoots a billion three pointers from deep. Ultimately, this is gonna come down to how do I phrase this. This is gonna come down to awards and accolades, and it's gonna come down to a numbers game, and people are gonna say, well, Magic has him in titles five to four, has him in an MVPs three to two. Magic had been finals MVPs three to one. Where's Curry better? And I will just quickly add, if you're doing it that way, you're forgetting something massive. When it comes to Magic Johnson, he was drafted onto a team with one of the top four players in the history of the sport, Kareem abdul Jabbar, because of some draft luck wizardry. I still don't know how this happened. A few years later, they end up getting James Worthy in the draft a top was he top three or four pick, might have been number two overall? I don't even know, but he was an elite pick. So you're telling me Magic Johnson, Kareem abdul Jabbar, and James Worthy were the nucleus of a team that wrecked the eighties, and now all of a sudden, Magic's getting all the accolades for five titles. He did win Oh oh wait, no, he didn't. He didn't win a title without Jabbar interesting. I remember Michael Thompson was there, and I don't know if Eldon Campbell was in the Magic or that might have been like the post HIV Magic where Magic came back for like six games or whatever. So Magic has zero titles without Jabbar. His playoff resume after Kream Abdul Jabbar retired was swept by the Detroit Pistons. That was a series. I think Magic at Byren Scott got hurt. They lost in the second round, and then they lost in the finals to the Bulls, and then Michael Magic was done. I also looked at the MVPs. This is maybe only interesting to me. Nineteen ninety Magic won the MVP after Jabbar had left. So Magic, because Jabbar leaves Magic soaking up more accolades, more attention, more points, more everything, Magic accumulates an MVP award. When Charles Barkley led the league in first place votes for the MVP, Magic had more second and third. I would have to do more digging to find out why people would vote Barkley one but not two and three. And then in nineteen eighty nine it was a battle of Magic and Jordan, and Magic won out. Jordan, of course, this is before this. That was the year I think the final year Jordan got stuffed in by the Pistons. So if you take that stuff into account, like oh, teammates, I think it's much much closer than you would just on on who's winning that. Now, if you want to look at the numbers, like who's got more points, well, obviously Curry. Who's got more threes, well obviously Curry. Morris is obviously magic, he's six nine, He's gonna have more rebounds. And that's where it gets a little wonky. What's interesting is a question Rob that I don't know if there's an answer to on how many of those Lakers teams was Magic Johnson the best player? Because Worthy got Finals MVP one year. I believe it was eighty eighty at a triple double in Game seven. Jabbar obviously got a finals MVP. I think maybe a regular season MVP. But outside of a window where Kevin Durant showed up in Golden State and they won two titles, Sef Curry unequivocally was the best player on all those Warriors.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Teams, all of them.
00:22:17
Speaker 2: Like Andrew Wiggins had a couple of games, but it was Curry and from that vantage point and factoring in Curry's size, you know, six ' three below the rim in an era of freakish athletes versus six nine. And I think Curry has a strong case for himself despite not having the accolades, the same way Lebron for me is the goat over Jordan despite not having six rings and blah blah blah blah blah. The defense has rested. Rob Go ahead and tear it to shreds. I know you're champing at the bit.
00:22:53
Speaker 3: Look, all I'm gonna say is, before I get into the meat of the argument, is you keep letting that one time that you went to the gym doing a super set and Steph Curry walked up behind you gave you a spot, and You're like, this guy is the greatest thing since slice bread. He will now be my favorite player of all time. Look, Steph Curry is great and and and I don't want to make it seem like I'm disrespecting Steph Curry. I have him like borderline top. I think maybe like top ten or twelve, if I would have really break it out like Top twelve.
00:23:22
Speaker 1: By the way, No, no, not yet.
00:23:25
Speaker 3: I mean he is his story is still being written. He has a little bit more work to do, And everything you said about Steph Curry is accurate, right, He's the greatest shooter of all time. Extra points for basically building a dynasty out of thin air, because that Golden State Warriors team historically.
00:23:45
Speaker 1: Is just not a great franchise.
00:23:46
Speaker 3: I mean the fact that they still hang on to the we believe Warriors, which I believe won one playoff series and like that's like they're claim to fame and all these guys are on TV and podcast now because of it. Like that's what he resurrected as so he gets extra points for.
00:24:00
Speaker 1: That, of course.
00:24:02
Speaker 3: But as much as you don't want to talk about the counting stats, when you're discussing players of this caliber, you have to nitpick, and fortunately for me, you don't have to nitpick very hard to determine that Magic Johnson is still leaps and bounds ahead of Steph Curry all time. One more championship, two more finals, MVP, one more regular season MVP, five more all NBA First teams, three more All Star appearances. So the gap between Steph Curry and Magic Johnson is basically like another Hall of Fame career it's like Paul Pierce. Like you added Paul Pierce's career to Steph Curry, then maybe you get to Magic Johnson. And then if you look at just the raw numbers, which I know this is kind of boring for listeners, but outside of points where Steph Curry's head by about four thousand, Magic hasn't been and rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and they've played only like twenty games different.
00:24:57
Speaker 2: I think it's less than that well, depending regular season, in playoff, yeah, playoffs, think factors injuries early in his career.
00:25:04
Speaker 3: Exactly, and and and Magic's career was cut short due to AIDS. So we can only imagine if Steph Curry's healthy in the beginning, what his accolades look like. We can also only imagine if Magic never gets HIV, how many more all nbas, how many more cracks at the Apple? Does he get to win an NBA championship. So both of these guys are all time greats. It's just something that has bothered me going back now a couple of years, that it has become more prevalent with social media. Everybody likes to think that what they see now is better than anything that ever existed before, and that might be true in some instances because of technology, and you know, bigger, faster, stronger, and I get all of that, But that doesn't mean you can just go ahead and disrespect the guys that came before you because you prefer this style of play or the way this guy does things because you brought it up, Gilbert of Reenas is whole argument in favor of Steph Curry over Magic Johnson, which I'm glad you pointed out with stupid was well, I see more guys at the park and AAU play like Steph than Magic like because more guys play like Joel Embiid than they do like Shaq. That that means Shack's not better than Joel Embiid. No, it's just, you know, it's easier to duplicate that style of play because Shaq and Magic have freakish athleticism and size for their position, like that shouldn't be held against them. And so this is a roundabout way again of me saying Steph Curry's great is nowhere close to Magic Johnson nowhere close.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: So the all NBA thing, the all NBA thing was interesting, five different all NBA. I'm trying to think, who are the point guards that are getting all NBA over Curry in the last decade.
00:26:51
Speaker 3: In the Black world, didn't get first team if Lukadancic has been running.
00:26:56
Speaker 1: Through it pretty quickly.
00:26:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's putting one ridiculous stats. That's yeah, that's interesting. And I know people love to say Magic eight in the Jordan era and the Bird era. That's fine.
00:27:12
Speaker 3: That's Steph eight in the Lebron era, so that yeah, that counts for him too.
00:27:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Arenas didn't have much of an argument. And this is a very vague question because I don't know that there's like a concrete answer. But Rob, taking into by the way, the Lakers season two of that winning time just started last night, I recorded, I haven't seen it. Taking into account what Magic and Bird did in the eighties for the NBA and what Curry's impact has been on the league and basketball as a whole in the last fifteen years, who has had a bigger impact on basketball, not just the NBA basketball in their career Because I think most people would think Magic initially, but if you look at Curry, Oh, I don't even think it's close, dude.
00:28:04
Speaker 3: It's it's really tough because it's whether you value the globalization of the game, and you know, getting it on television the way Magic john'son Larry Bird did, and then Steph Curry just fundamentally changing the way people play basketball. Well, and it's just it's different. So it's kind of way you prefer.
00:28:23
Speaker 2: Well, it's the globalization is more dream team and I think that was technically Jordan's team. Magic was on it, but I would say getting the NBA on TV, getting it on the map Magic Johnson hands down. But it's again, I know people aren't gonna like putting Curry in the magic discussion, but the best thing to do ten years from now, Curry's been removed from the league for ten years, does magic And is does this discussion look different when you look at post career because Curry is still in it. People are not gonna want to give him credit. Oh is you know a story is still being written, But I don't know.
00:29:00
Speaker 3: It's absolutely gonna be different because Steph Curry, even in his advantage age and he's one of those guys whose game is aging gracefully because of how while he shoots, how while he keeps himself in condition. I don't if you saw the videos on social media, like Luka Doncez tried to do one of those Steph Curry workouts and it looked like me and you out there trying to do one of the Steph like he's just bent over. He can't bounce the ball anymore like he was.
00:29:24
Speaker 1: He was done.
00:29:25
Speaker 3: And Steph Curry is gonna add at least two to three more all NBA. I don't know if they'll be first team, but it'll definitely add at least two to three more all NBA teams. He's gonna be in the championship mix as long as he wants to be. I think in Golden State, and he's always going to be. To me in the NBA Mount Rushmore because of what he's done for the NBA and the way it's played, it's just.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: Rushmore.
00:29:51
Speaker 3: If he is, it's him and Bird together, I would say yes. So I would say yes. So.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: At thirty two years old, Curry averaged a league leading thirty two points per game, shot forty eight, forty two, ninety one at thirty two. At thirty two, Magic Johnson wasn't even in the league, right, Wasn't he done at thirty one?
00:30:11
Speaker 1: Right? But that's now fair compared.
00:30:13
Speaker 2: It's not fair, But I'm just saying the stuff Curry's doing fine. How about this thirty four years old? Last year, Curry averaged twenty nine points a game at thirty four. That's one of the highest marks of anyone that age. Ever, it's like Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, oh, Steph Curry, Like, centers aren't doing that, point guards aren't doing that. I don't know if Lucas gonna be doing that at thirty four. For him to average twenty nine, you know, it's not like he's even going down. I don't think Curry, if anything, he's at the plateau and he's just coasting. Like it's crazy what he's doing at this age. And I don't know how many more max years of superstardom does he have left one two?
00:30:53
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:30:54
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody thought Brady would be playing at forty five and winning a Super Bowl in his mid forties, Like, I don't know.
00:31:00
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, it's weird to say this, but he and Lebron James are very similar in that it seems like they can be All Star caliber players until they just decide they don't want to be anymore. Because of the like Lebron Thankfully, because the way his body is, he's able to transform from being a guy who plays on the wing to a guy who basically just plays at the rim. That's going to be what he does now, Steph Curry. So long as his ankles hold up, which they have now for over a decade, I don't see any signs of him slowing down. So to your point, ten years from now, he's going to have more accolades to put on his resume. That could make this a much, in my opinion, a much closer conversation than it is right now here in the middle.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: Of August twel I guess, I mean, I guess. To wrap it up, I would say, you know, if you ask, if you ask fifty people who are over the age of forty, I think most would say no. If you ask fifty people who were under the age of say thirty five, I bet most would say, Steph Curry, this is gonna be a complicated one because it's close when you look at that. Now you look at those counting stats. Where it gets real tricky, Rob is Let's say the Warriors pivot and get off Clay and add another guy and win another title. Okay, I think the same people who are saying, oh, Lebron only played with stars are gonna be like, whoa, whoa, woll Curry only tied Magic because they added, let's just say, Polo bank Caro. It's not him, he's not whatever, but a star. That's the only reason. And he had Kevin Durant. But wait a minute, Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul Jabbar and James Worthy for his entire prime. James Worthy is a top thirty player all time? Is that too generous?
00:32:52
Speaker 1: Definitely in there.
00:32:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jabbar is top five by everybody, anybody with a clue. Now, I mean like Magic had the I can't think of anyone who played on more stack teams than Magic Johnson. And I don't think the answer is Lebron. I think Magic played on more stack teams than anybody. Lebron never played for them.
00:33:11
Speaker 3: That's a good I never thought of it that way, but it's he's up there for sure. So I don't think he ever played with the team that didn't that wasn't loaded.
00:33:18
Speaker 2: Lebronlayed Wade his career, right, Lebron played with Wade, who's the top twenty guy all time, right, Yes, okay, played with Chris Bosh. I don't think Chris Bosh is in James Worthy territory.
00:33:28
Speaker 1: I'm sorry people.
00:33:29
Speaker 2: James Worthy was a Finals MVP with a triple double in game seven. Okay, Bosh is not there. It was Boston. James was Bosh top seventy five.
00:33:38
Speaker 1: I don't think so, I don't know.
00:33:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not. Okay, So then Lebron goes to play with Kyrie. Let's slow our role on Kyrie freaking Irving. Okay, it's not top fifty. I don't even know if he stops seventy five? And who's the other who's the third guy? Oh, Kevin Love? Stop Kevin Love's not top fifty, he's not. So then Lebron goes plays with ad Is he is he a top fifty all time? I don't know.
00:34:01
Speaker 1: He might finish his career.
00:34:02
Speaker 2: Fine, fine, if he's not top forty. I mean, you say, who's had a better career, James Worthy or Anthony Davis. And again, James Worthy played with stacked teams. Adies played with Drew Holliday and guys in New Orleans, Like, I mean, Anthony Davis didn't win a title with Kentucky like by himself. Well, no, he had a good team. I'm not buying something.
00:34:23
Speaker 3: Well, you know who else escapes this criticism which I hate to like spin it this way, Larry Bird needs to be if we were gonna say the loaded team, you know argument, Larry Bird always played on stacked teams and Michail if you just that decade was Hall of Fame roster versus Hall of Fame roster, and then just going at it and then oh, by the way, Isaiah Thomas's pistons come in and went to.
00:34:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and oh by the way, like twenty four teams in that league were garbage.
00:34:49
Speaker 3: Right.
00:34:50
Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, you're saying eighties basketball wasn't loaded. Interesting, That's another topic for another day. We'll close it on that. We college football tomorrow. We'll talk to you that
Speaker 1: The volume.
00:00:09
Speaker 2: This is Straight Fire with Jason McIntyre. What is up Straight Fire, fam, It's me Jason McIntyre. Straight Fire for Tuesday, August twenty second. Got some great topics today as we slowly get to the end of August, we're limping to the start of the NFL season inside three weeks to play. College football shockingly starts this weekend. So tomorrow we've got a great college football guest booked. He came on by demand. You guys asked for him last year. We gave it to you. He's good on college football. I'll save you the name, so we'll keep some suspense for tomorrow. And no great games this weekend. I saw Notre Dames in action, but they're playing somebody their favorite heavily over and the games don't start in earnest until Labor Day weekend. All right, let's quickly get to We got two topics that I love today. I'm just give a little warning and advance the second topic. It's near and dear to my heart because it's involving Steph Curry, and the other side of the coin is near and dear to rob GE's heart. He is a big Laker guy now I'm also a Laker guy. I'm just wondering it could get testy given some of the chatter before the podcast listen. Obviously, Rob and I like each other. I think the topic will be fun. But we got to start in the NFL with Joe Montana, who was, by many accounts of the greatest quarterback in NFL history until Tom Brady took that mantle from him. I don't know if Brady stole it with the Seattle Super Bowl where the Seahawks had the best defense in the league and Brady went the length of the field twice in the fourth quarter touchdowns. It might have been that comeback against the Falcons where they were getting smashed and they pull off an amazing comeback and win in overtime. But either way, Tom Brady eclipsed Montana as the greatest quarterback of all time. When I think Joe Montana, besides the Leonard Marshall hit that pretty much ended his career in San France and ended up sending him to the Chiefs, I think just Joe Montana, like making it look easy, drop back, clean pocket all the time. Jerry Rice John Taylor, who was the Titan Brent Selick now he might have been with the Steve Young teams. Who was that tight end Rob g a lumbering, large white guy with the Niners back in the day. Do you know his name?
00:02:27
Speaker 1: I do not, but I can look it up while you're talking.
00:02:29
Speaker 2: You look it up. So bottom line is Montana classic drop back guy. And then they.
00:02:33
Speaker 1: Pivoted Dwight and Clark.
00:02:34
Speaker 2: Dwight Clark, thank you had the amazing catch against the Cowboys in the back of the end, zes whit Clark. But I think that Montana in the pocket quarterback era right in the eighties, you didn't have your quarterbacks running back then. The one outlier was like late eighties. I think maybe in the early nineties Randall Cunningham. He was just electric, taking crazy hits, elusive and you're like, Wow, this guy's amazing. And then the Niners ended up pivoting from Montana to Steve Young, and a little bit after that you had Michael Vick and then the floodgates kind of open and you've got this totally diverse set of skills at quarterback. Cam Newton with Carolina getting to a Super Bowl and now all the elite quarterbacks in the league not only win from the pocket, but really are dangerous because they're mobile, and that's just not something that happened in the Montana era. Phil Simms drop back in the court, three step drop, four step drop, boom boom, go through the progressions carving up these defenses. And Montana did an interview with USA Today this week promoting something or other with Joe Burrow, and of course because it was a promotional thing, you know, they got to hype up whatever they're promoting. They didn't pay us, so we're not promoting it. Buried at the end of the story, literally the last quote in the story, Joe Montana says quarterbacks that win consistently now win from the pocket. And it's one of those quotes that might be overlooked by a lot of people, but anyone who's been following the league for the last three years and watches trends and sees what's going on with the stats knows that that's just not factually correct. The best quarterbacks in the NFL right now consistently threatened teams with their feet. I don't know which website had the advanced stat that it was rob but it was essentially saying that the most effective play in the NFL. Is not a handoff, it's not a drop back. It's a quarterback running the football. Now, obviously there is massive variance with what's gonna be the outcome. Is the quarterback at a fumble, is he gonna take a massive hit and go down and get injured. But more often than not, these defenses are dropping back the too high shell. We're gonna drop back, and the quarterback, hey, I'm not gonna make a mistake. I'm gonna go ahead and take six, seven, eight yards. And then you're setting yourself up for like a second in three and on second three, the entire playbook is open, you know. And that's you want to set yourself up on first down with a throw so you can set up a lot of other options on second and short. You don't want to consistently hand off like Joe Montana did back in the day to Roger Craig, he gets stuffed on first down out second and nine, playbook shrinks considerably. Defense has an idea what's coming. You're most likely not running again on second now when it's second and eight, second and nine. So this is just the new advanced stats in the NFL. This is probably the last five six years now, and it's another reason running backs are slightly being devalued. I know a lot of people don't like that I put up the air quotes for devalue. But if you look at Patrick Mahomes, you can't just say, well, he's an outlier jay No, No, he's not. Josh Allen, who has not been to a Super Bowl but is tremendous and is a franchise quarterback and is one of the highest PAI players in the league and as an MVP candidate, is a massive threat because of the ability to run the football. Jalen hurts went from a running quarterback to oh, now I've got aj Brown. I come from the pocket and I can run. And Jalen Hurtson only won the MVP last year. Justin Herbert, if you're building a quarterback in a lab, that's what you want. Six or five can drop back, make any pass on the field to any place in the field. He'll make it rain into a bucket forty yards down the field in the window that the quarterbacks can't touch it. And oh, by the way, Justin Herbert is extremely long legged and fast and nimble and could take hits. Now he did take a hit last year in the Ribs, remember which kind of rattled their mid season, So you've got to be careful with that. But his ability to do both keeps defenses consistently guessing. You're not losing sleep at night when you're facing an at least in twenty twenty three, when you're just facing a pocket quarterback. Now you're like Jay name somebody. The problem is, I'm looking around the league and almost every quarterback in the top fifteen has a running element. If you're really looking at a guy who is mostly pocket, I would say, and maybe Ron could find a better example, is Kirk Cousins is the phos pocket quarterback out there? Now? Are you losing sleep if you're a defensive coordinator over Kirk Cousins or you more worried about Justin Jefferson going for twelve and two hundred yards and two touchdowns. I don't know. People are trying to make the case that Joe Burrow's extremely pocket. I kind of disagree with that. You know, you look at some of the playoff games. He's winning with his legs, some big third downs against the Bills in that playoff game. He had a great running game against the Chiefs, in the AFC Tititle game. I think he had four rushes thirty yards. This is the guy who was a point guard on his AU team and was like, maybe gonna be a college basketball like low d One guy like, I don't consider him just a pocket quarterback. He's about a scramble. His elusiveness Joe Burrow is amazing. What's been interesting is Montana's comments come kind of at the end of an era. Right. Look at these quarterbacks from the Oos and the teams I guess if you will, who were almost exclusive pocket quarterbacks and dominated the league. Eli Manning extremely pocket, Philip Rivers had no wheels whatsoever. Tom Brady obviously wins a lot of Super Bowls. Peyton Manning strictly pocket, Drew Brees strictly pocket a lot of success. The league has changed. You've got a lot of these quarterbacks now, Rob they you know, they weren't necessarily the best quarterback. They were the best maybe athlete in sixth grade. And then you're like, oh, well, this guy's already got the athletic component. Let's see how he can read a defense, Let's see what his arm is like. And that's when the quarterbacks make the jump to light speed. So in the seven on sevens, it's like you can see the guy isn't just a pocket quarterback, He's an athlete. The old adage used to be you want an alpha back there at quarterback. I think the you know, leader guy in the huddle. Obviously you still want that, but I think you want an athlete back there in an era when defensive ends are as big and fast, as strong as we've ever seen, you know, go back and look at the eighties some of those edge rushers, with the exception of like a Lawrence Taylor, they were larger guys three hundred pounds. Defensive ends now like twoin fifty and can bend and get to the quarterback extremely faster, lighter, faster, and just as strong or stronger. So you've got to have your quarterback who's nibbling able to get out of there. So Rob, I would just totally disagree with Joe Montana. And I know Montana obviously its one a lot more than I've won at the quarterback level, you know, and that includes my backyard quarterbacking back in the day where I was obviously undefeated. But Rob, I just I disagree with the overall sentiment, and I think if your quarterback doesn't have a running element, now you're in trouble. By the way, Trevor Lawrence, remember him against Clemson against Ohio State. One of the best seventy yard touchdown runs I've ever seen for a quarterback. That run gives me goosebumps. I love watching it. And oh, by the way, the quarterback coming out now, who's said to be the best running quarterback passing quarterback since like Andrew Luck or Lawrence is Caleb Williams, who is an excellent runner. So Rob this feels like, you know, old man Montana kind of yelling at a cloud.
00:10:05
Speaker 3: Yes, and I'm going to say this with all due respect. Usually when someone says with all due respect, something super disrespectful is.
00:10:11
Speaker 1: About to follow.
00:10:12
Speaker 3: But everything that Joe Montana told USA today is wrong. It is no longer correct. That line of thinking has expired in today's NFL. You brought up a lot of salient points, and I'm just gonna give people numbers. I know a lot of our listeners are very analytical. They want the facts over the feelings, kind of arguing. We get that a lot in the comments, right, So if you take out Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson because they've kind of bridged the gap between the two generations. And even then, both of those guys are probably more known for their ability to move than just much of that, but to throw the football, you know, Russell Wilson obviously more so. But what made Aaron Rodgers so special in his prime was his ability to escape, make plays on the run, fifty yard flick rolling to his right, and that's what you know, separated him from a lot of other guys. But if you just look at the quarterbacks that you would classic as a quote unquote mobile quarterback in the classic sense of the word, Patrick Mahomes is forty eight games above five hundred as a starter, Josh Allen is twenty eight games, Jalen Hurts his twelve games, Lamar Jackson is twenty nine games, Dak Prescott is twenty five games above five hundred. On the flip side, if you look at guys who are considered quote unquote pocket quarterbacks, and will even include Joe Burrow just to give these guys some kind of ammunition in the argument, Joe Burrow, as great as he is, seven games over five hundred, justin Herbert again, will give them justin Herbert because he doesn't run all that often. He can, but he doesn't do that often. One game above five hundred. Kirk Couzin is the guy you brought up nine games over five hundred, Matthew Stafford twelve games below five hundred. Like this is unfortunately or fortunately, depending how you look on it, unfortunate for Joe Montana. This is the way the league is skewing. When you say, if you want the team to win consistently, the quarterback has to play mainly in the pocket, that is factually incorrect. You're holding on to visions of yourself and Tom Brady who want a certain way that just does not apply anymore. Patrick Mahomes, almost by himself, has shattered the mold of what we thought a quarterback was supposed to do. If you watch him play, and if you're a quarterback coach, and we know a few of them have come on this show and we've talked to outside of the show, they say, there's so many things that he does that you coach not to do. The no look pass, the run and throw a c back across your body, the jump pass, all these different things that they say in a classic quarterback sense you are never supposed to do. He does at a high level, and that's what makes him special. So for Joe Montana to say that you have to win from the pocket, maybe in two thousand and two, maybe even as recent as you know, twenty and twelve, but in the year twenty twenty three, that is not true.
00:12:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not crapping on pocket quarterbacks. I think we talked about with the Aid and O'Connell thing. Yesterday. Nick Foles went to a super Bowl. I'll be that he just played in the playoffs. He's a pocket guy. Matt Ryan and Atlanta pocket guy went to the Super Bowl, obviously Brady, and there was Jared Goff, who is not nimble. I guess he could escape if need be, but he's a pocket guy. He went to the Super Bowl with McVeigh, and of course McVeigh pipots off him to bring in Stafford, who's got the even better arm and is a little more elusive. I don't know, would you classify Stafford as a pocket guy. I think he would be more of a pocket guy than Joe Burrow. Is that fair?
00:13:30
Speaker 1: Yeah?
00:13:30
Speaker 3: But even still historically says he has a losing record. Like if you want to say, well, well, if Joe Montana wants to wants to qualify a statement and say, if you want to win super Bowls, then you have to win from the pocket, that's a better argument for him because if you would just look at historically the teams that won the Super Bowl, because Tom Brady has wont so many of them, that like fits your argument. But if you're just talking about winning football games, the guys who move around win more in the regular season than the quote unquote pocket guys.
00:13:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I think you're being a hard on Stafford losing record like he was in Detroit, the worst franchise in I don't I think the history of the league, I don't remember the last time they got a playoff win. And it's not all Stafford's fault, like he was surrounded by ineptitude. I don't know who it was, but somebody broke down the defensive DVOA ratings of all the Stafford teams, and they were all in Detroit. I think they were like one of them might have maybe won, was top ten and the rest were all just futrid. And the year they were top ten, I think called me on it, and if I'm wrong, that's fine. I think they went to the playoffs and lost to Dallas, and I remember because there was a questionable pass interference play or Detroit was driving in the fourth quarter and there's a questionable flag that didn't go their way and they ended up losing. But they didn't have any good defensive teams in Detroit. And let's not hammer Stafford. Although I don't know if you've seen any Rams robb Gie Rams reports about the offensive line already not looking good. I'm worried about Stafford bro I like him. I think he's got I think he's got plenty left in the tank. But this could be a long year for the Rams. All right, let's get to this NBA topic real quick. And again it is late August, so we're not doing a ton of NBA. Yesterday we had obviously the USA basketball Anthony Edwards, Austin Reeves. And today Steph Curry is in the news, and yes, some people are hammering him, and that's fine. That's my guy, Curry.
00:15:21
Speaker 1: You know that.
00:15:24
Speaker 2: Steph Curry is promoting something. This is what August is about, promotional stuff. And Gilbert Arenas said, oh, I'll promote it, so he flew his podcast to wherever Curry was. I guess northern California and Gilbert Arenas. Just a quick note on me and Gilbert Arenas. The first NBA jersey I bought and Warren public was Gilbert Arena's Washington Wizards. Was it bullets or Wizard?
00:15:50
Speaker 3: It was?
00:15:50
Speaker 2: It was Wizards like twenty fourteen fifteen? Oh no, no, no, no, no, no no no. This is like twenty two thousand and five six when he was like the Hibachi before the gun incident, when he was just a scoring machine. He was so fun. Big fan of Gilbert reads. Just in case he hears this or his people send it to him. I was a huge Gilbert Renas fan. Obviously the gun thing changed things, and on this pot I gave away that you were in a jersey. That being said, he asked Curry who's the greatest point guard of all time? And Steph Curry, knowing that whatever he says is gonna go viral, he's I think been asked this question about like who are the top five shooters or the top five point guards of all time? And he usually leaves himself out or top five players, whatever it is. He leaves himself out. This time, he's like, you know what, I'm gonna take the bait. And if you watch the video, Steph Curry's like just like thinking about it, and he's staring straight forward, and after three or four seconds he goes me and you just know when he says that it's it's gonna cause a kerfuffle. He goes on to explain like within seconds, it's got to be me or magic, right, And that's obvious. We've been on that early and I can still take claim to fame. Rob you know this. Twenty seventeen, your boy went on cow Herd show the clip they clipped it off. It did monster numbers, and I said Steph Curry was the second best point guard of all time. This was way early. I think it was. Yeah, twenty seventeen, might have been twenty sixteen or twenty seventeen, but all these people were like, oh, come on, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Oscar Robert I said, bleep off, guys, it's Curry. Trust me, or as my son likes to say trust, he doesn't say trust me, he just says trust. So I've been early on this, and I will also admit, yes, Curry's my favorite player of all time. Before that, it was Magic Johnson. Asked my parents anytime I was in a basketball league, I demanded, begged for Jersey thirty two. I thought I was magic. I wasn't newsflast. I was not Magic Johnson, and he was my favorite player. I had like the Lakers pennant on my wall. I guess they did penance for NBA TA whatever. I had like Magic Johnson poster either trading cards. I was a magic guy. We've discussed this a lot. Who's the best point guard career?
00:18:10
Speaker 1: Magic?
00:18:11
Speaker 2: And Curry saying himself has rob gy'all worked into a lather. And I'm just gonna say, Gilbert Aarenas made a silly argument about when I go to the playground and when I go to AAU games, everybody's emulating Steph Curry, gil Bro, what are you doing? Like that has nothing to do with who the greatest failure of all time is? Like nobody emulates Michael Jordan at the playground, nobody emulates Shack. You can't. You can only emulate Curry because he shoots a billion three pointers from deep. Ultimately, this is gonna come down to how do I phrase this. This is gonna come down to awards and accolades, and it's gonna come down to a numbers game, and people are gonna say, well, Magic has him in titles five to four, has him in an MVPs three to two. Magic had been finals MVPs three to one. Where's Curry better? And I will just quickly add, if you're doing it that way, you're forgetting something massive. When it comes to Magic Johnson, he was drafted onto a team with one of the top four players in the history of the sport, Kareem abdul Jabbar, because of some draft luck wizardry. I still don't know how this happened. A few years later, they end up getting James Worthy in the draft a top was he top three or four pick, might have been number two overall? I don't even know, but he was an elite pick. So you're telling me Magic Johnson, Kareem abdul Jabbar, and James Worthy were the nucleus of a team that wrecked the eighties, and now all of a sudden, Magic's getting all the accolades for five titles. He did win Oh oh wait, no, he didn't. He didn't win a title without Jabbar interesting. I remember Michael Thompson was there, and I don't know if Eldon Campbell was in the Magic or that might have been like the post HIV Magic where Magic came back for like six games or whatever. So Magic has zero titles without Jabbar. His playoff resume after Kream Abdul Jabbar retired was swept by the Detroit Pistons. That was a series. I think Magic at Byren Scott got hurt. They lost in the second round, and then they lost in the finals to the Bulls, and then Michael Magic was done. I also looked at the MVPs. This is maybe only interesting to me. Nineteen ninety Magic won the MVP after Jabbar had left. So Magic, because Jabbar leaves Magic soaking up more accolades, more attention, more points, more everything, Magic accumulates an MVP award. When Charles Barkley led the league in first place votes for the MVP, Magic had more second and third. I would have to do more digging to find out why people would vote Barkley one but not two and three. And then in nineteen eighty nine it was a battle of Magic and Jordan, and Magic won out. Jordan, of course, this is before this. That was the year I think the final year Jordan got stuffed in by the Pistons. So if you take that stuff into account, like oh, teammates, I think it's much much closer than you would just on on who's winning that. Now, if you want to look at the numbers, like who's got more points, well, obviously Curry. Who's got more threes, well obviously Curry. Morris is obviously magic, he's six nine, He's gonna have more rebounds. And that's where it gets a little wonky. What's interesting is a question Rob that I don't know if there's an answer to on how many of those Lakers teams was Magic Johnson the best player? Because Worthy got Finals MVP one year. I believe it was eighty eighty at a triple double in Game seven. Jabbar obviously got a finals MVP. I think maybe a regular season MVP. But outside of a window where Kevin Durant showed up in Golden State and they won two titles, Sef Curry unequivocally was the best player on all those Warriors.
00:22:17
Speaker 1: Teams, all of them.
00:22:17
Speaker 2: Like Andrew Wiggins had a couple of games, but it was Curry and from that vantage point and factoring in Curry's size, you know, six ' three below the rim in an era of freakish athletes versus six nine. And I think Curry has a strong case for himself despite not having the accolades, the same way Lebron for me is the goat over Jordan despite not having six rings and blah blah blah blah blah. The defense has rested. Rob Go ahead and tear it to shreds. I know you're champing at the bit.
00:22:53
Speaker 3: Look, all I'm gonna say is, before I get into the meat of the argument, is you keep letting that one time that you went to the gym doing a super set and Steph Curry walked up behind you gave you a spot, and You're like, this guy is the greatest thing since slice bread. He will now be my favorite player of all time. Look, Steph Curry is great and and and I don't want to make it seem like I'm disrespecting Steph Curry. I have him like borderline top. I think maybe like top ten or twelve, if I would have really break it out like Top twelve.
00:23:22
Speaker 1: By the way, No, no, not yet.
00:23:25
Speaker 3: I mean he is his story is still being written. He has a little bit more work to do, And everything you said about Steph Curry is accurate, right, He's the greatest shooter of all time. Extra points for basically building a dynasty out of thin air, because that Golden State Warriors team historically.
00:23:45
Speaker 1: Is just not a great franchise.
00:23:46
Speaker 3: I mean the fact that they still hang on to the we believe Warriors, which I believe won one playoff series and like that's like they're claim to fame and all these guys are on TV and podcast now because of it. Like that's what he resurrected as so he gets extra points for.
00:24:00
Speaker 1: That, of course.
00:24:02
Speaker 3: But as much as you don't want to talk about the counting stats, when you're discussing players of this caliber, you have to nitpick, and fortunately for me, you don't have to nitpick very hard to determine that Magic Johnson is still leaps and bounds ahead of Steph Curry all time. One more championship, two more finals, MVP, one more regular season MVP, five more all NBA First teams, three more All Star appearances. So the gap between Steph Curry and Magic Johnson is basically like another Hall of Fame career it's like Paul Pierce. Like you added Paul Pierce's career to Steph Curry, then maybe you get to Magic Johnson. And then if you look at just the raw numbers, which I know this is kind of boring for listeners, but outside of points where Steph Curry's head by about four thousand, Magic hasn't been and rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, and they've played only like twenty games different.
00:24:57
Speaker 2: I think it's less than that well, depending regular season, in playoff, yeah, playoffs, think factors injuries early in his career.
00:25:04
Speaker 3: Exactly, and and and Magic's career was cut short due to AIDS. So we can only imagine if Steph Curry's healthy in the beginning, what his accolades look like. We can also only imagine if Magic never gets HIV, how many more all nbas, how many more cracks at the Apple? Does he get to win an NBA championship. So both of these guys are all time greats. It's just something that has bothered me going back now a couple of years, that it has become more prevalent with social media. Everybody likes to think that what they see now is better than anything that ever existed before, and that might be true in some instances because of technology, and you know, bigger, faster, stronger, and I get all of that, But that doesn't mean you can just go ahead and disrespect the guys that came before you because you prefer this style of play or the way this guy does things because you brought it up, Gilbert of Reenas is whole argument in favor of Steph Curry over Magic Johnson, which I'm glad you pointed out with stupid was well, I see more guys at the park and AAU play like Steph than Magic like because more guys play like Joel Embiid than they do like Shaq. That that means Shack's not better than Joel Embiid. No, it's just, you know, it's easier to duplicate that style of play because Shaq and Magic have freakish athleticism and size for their position, like that shouldn't be held against them. And so this is a roundabout way again of me saying Steph Curry's great is nowhere close to Magic Johnson nowhere close.
00:26:38
Speaker 2: So the all NBA thing, the all NBA thing was interesting, five different all NBA. I'm trying to think, who are the point guards that are getting all NBA over Curry in the last decade.
00:26:51
Speaker 3: In the Black world, didn't get first team if Lukadancic has been running.
00:26:56
Speaker 1: Through it pretty quickly.
00:26:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's putting one ridiculous stats. That's yeah, that's interesting. And I know people love to say Magic eight in the Jordan era and the Bird era. That's fine.
00:27:12
Speaker 3: That's Steph eight in the Lebron era, so that yeah, that counts for him too.
00:27:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, the Arenas didn't have much of an argument. And this is a very vague question because I don't know that there's like a concrete answer. But Rob, taking into by the way, the Lakers season two of that winning time just started last night, I recorded, I haven't seen it. Taking into account what Magic and Bird did in the eighties for the NBA and what Curry's impact has been on the league and basketball as a whole in the last fifteen years, who has had a bigger impact on basketball, not just the NBA basketball in their career Because I think most people would think Magic initially, but if you look at Curry, Oh, I don't even think it's close, dude.
00:28:04
Speaker 3: It's it's really tough because it's whether you value the globalization of the game, and you know, getting it on television the way Magic john'son Larry Bird did, and then Steph Curry just fundamentally changing the way people play basketball. Well, and it's just it's different. So it's kind of way you prefer.
00:28:23
Speaker 2: Well, it's the globalization is more dream team and I think that was technically Jordan's team. Magic was on it, but I would say getting the NBA on TV, getting it on the map Magic Johnson hands down. But it's again, I know people aren't gonna like putting Curry in the magic discussion, but the best thing to do ten years from now, Curry's been removed from the league for ten years, does magic And is does this discussion look different when you look at post career because Curry is still in it. People are not gonna want to give him credit. Oh is you know a story is still being written, But I don't know.
00:29:00
Speaker 3: It's absolutely gonna be different because Steph Curry, even in his advantage age and he's one of those guys whose game is aging gracefully because of how while he shoots, how while he keeps himself in condition. I don't if you saw the videos on social media, like Luka Doncez tried to do one of those Steph Curry workouts and it looked like me and you out there trying to do one of the Steph like he's just bent over. He can't bounce the ball anymore like he was.
00:29:24
Speaker 1: He was done.
00:29:25
Speaker 3: And Steph Curry is gonna add at least two to three more all NBA. I don't know if they'll be first team, but it'll definitely add at least two to three more all NBA teams. He's gonna be in the championship mix as long as he wants to be. I think in Golden State, and he's always going to be. To me in the NBA Mount Rushmore because of what he's done for the NBA and the way it's played, it's just.
00:29:48
Speaker 2: Rushmore.
00:29:51
Speaker 3: If he is, it's him and Bird together, I would say yes. So I would say yes. So.
00:29:57
Speaker 2: At thirty two years old, Curry averaged a league leading thirty two points per game, shot forty eight, forty two, ninety one at thirty two. At thirty two, Magic Johnson wasn't even in the league, right, Wasn't he done at thirty one?
00:30:11
Speaker 1: Right? But that's now fair compared.
00:30:13
Speaker 2: It's not fair, But I'm just saying the stuff Curry's doing fine. How about this thirty four years old? Last year, Curry averaged twenty nine points a game at thirty four. That's one of the highest marks of anyone that age. Ever, it's like Karl Malone, Michael Jordan, oh, Steph Curry, Like, centers aren't doing that, point guards aren't doing that. I don't know if Lucas gonna be doing that at thirty four. For him to average twenty nine, you know, it's not like he's even going down. I don't think Curry, if anything, he's at the plateau and he's just coasting. Like it's crazy what he's doing at this age. And I don't know how many more max years of superstardom does he have left one two?
00:30:53
Speaker 1: I don't know.
00:30:54
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody thought Brady would be playing at forty five and winning a Super Bowl in his mid forties, Like, I don't know.
00:31:00
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean, it's weird to say this, but he and Lebron James are very similar in that it seems like they can be All Star caliber players until they just decide they don't want to be anymore. Because of the like Lebron Thankfully, because the way his body is, he's able to transform from being a guy who plays on the wing to a guy who basically just plays at the rim. That's going to be what he does now, Steph Curry. So long as his ankles hold up, which they have now for over a decade, I don't see any signs of him slowing down. So to your point, ten years from now, he's going to have more accolades to put on his resume. That could make this a much, in my opinion, a much closer conversation than it is right now here in the middle.
00:31:46
Speaker 2: Of August twel I guess, I mean, I guess. To wrap it up, I would say, you know, if you ask, if you ask fifty people who are over the age of forty, I think most would say no. If you ask fifty people who were under the age of say thirty five, I bet most would say, Steph Curry, this is gonna be a complicated one because it's close when you look at that. Now you look at those counting stats. Where it gets real tricky, Rob is Let's say the Warriors pivot and get off Clay and add another guy and win another title. Okay, I think the same people who are saying, oh, Lebron only played with stars are gonna be like, whoa, whoa, woll Curry only tied Magic because they added, let's just say, Polo bank Caro. It's not him, he's not whatever, but a star. That's the only reason. And he had Kevin Durant. But wait a minute, Magic Johnson had Kareem Abdul Jabbar and James Worthy for his entire prime. James Worthy is a top thirty player all time? Is that too generous?
00:32:52
Speaker 1: Definitely in there.
00:32:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jabbar is top five by everybody, anybody with a clue. Now, I mean like Magic had the I can't think of anyone who played on more stack teams than Magic Johnson. And I don't think the answer is Lebron. I think Magic played on more stack teams than anybody. Lebron never played for them.
00:33:11
Speaker 3: That's a good I never thought of it that way, but it's he's up there for sure. So I don't think he ever played with the team that didn't that wasn't loaded.
00:33:18
Speaker 2: Lebronlayed Wade his career, right, Lebron played with Wade, who's the top twenty guy all time, right, Yes, okay, played with Chris Bosh. I don't think Chris Bosh is in James Worthy territory.
00:33:28
Speaker 1: I'm sorry people.
00:33:29
Speaker 2: James Worthy was a Finals MVP with a triple double in game seven. Okay, Bosh is not there. It was Boston. James was Bosh top seventy five.
00:33:38
Speaker 1: I don't think so, I don't know.
00:33:39
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not. Okay, So then Lebron goes to play with Kyrie. Let's slow our role on Kyrie freaking Irving. Okay, it's not top fifty. I don't even know if he stops seventy five? And who's the other who's the third guy? Oh, Kevin Love? Stop Kevin Love's not top fifty, he's not. So then Lebron goes plays with ad Is he is he a top fifty all time? I don't know.
00:34:01
Speaker 1: He might finish his career.
00:34:02
Speaker 2: Fine, fine, if he's not top forty. I mean, you say, who's had a better career, James Worthy or Anthony Davis. And again, James Worthy played with stacked teams. Adies played with Drew Holliday and guys in New Orleans, Like, I mean, Anthony Davis didn't win a title with Kentucky like by himself. Well, no, he had a good team. I'm not buying something.
00:34:23
Speaker 3: Well, you know who else escapes this criticism which I hate to like spin it this way, Larry Bird needs to be if we were gonna say the loaded team, you know argument, Larry Bird always played on stacked teams and Michail if you just that decade was Hall of Fame roster versus Hall of Fame roster, and then just going at it and then oh, by the way, Isaiah Thomas's pistons come in and went to.
00:34:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, and oh by the way, like twenty four teams in that league were garbage.
00:34:49
Speaker 3: Right.
00:34:50
Speaker 2: Oh wait a minute, you're saying eighties basketball wasn't loaded. Interesting, That's another topic for another day. We'll close it on that. We college football tomorrow. We'll talk to you that
