"Different Is Not Weakness": ADHD, Autism and Work with Billie Lawson - Part Two

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Welcome back to the second half of this episode.
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I don't think what you're saying is unreasonable, but I also don't think it's necessarily specific to neurodivergency.
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I'm neurotypical and a lot of the things you're saying I need.
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Right.
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Which is interesting because a lot of the issues that people take with providing accommodations is a common thing to hear is, well, if you get to do that, then everyone would um have to be able to do that.
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Yeah.
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But what's so bad about that?
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What is so terrible about people being more comfortable when they work?
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Well, I I just think expecting somebody, I mean we're in an office situation.
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Okay, sure, we we have other little bits and pieces that we get up and do.
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We might go and visit a client or have a client come in or might have a photo shoot, or you know, there's other things that happen.
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You don't necessarily always sit at your desk all day, but some days you do.
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And I don't think that's good for anybody.
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No matter what they've got going on or not going on.
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I I just think everybody needs to have the ability to maybe move around, maybe have like we've all got standing desks.
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This all happened before you were even here, right?
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We've all got desks that we can sit, stand, whatever.
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We've got barstools that if you want to kind of perch and be somewhere in between, you could do that.
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You can sit on your regular computer chair, you can sit on a on a Swiss ball if you want to.
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We have a separate office if someone needs to go and sit at like a board table or another desk, they can shut a door, they can do that.
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If someone wants to go and sit out on the balcony in the sunshine, they can do that.
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If they want to sit on the couch, if they want to go downstairs, if they want to come in here into the studio, we have all those options.
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Plus working from home, and that's just never been a question for me, as well as headphones.
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Everybody has a set of headphones.
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Yeah, it's some of those things, even if it's not for sensory output and input and um uh preventing exhaustion and meltdowns and shutdowns.
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Everyone can benefit from have getting more comfortable, taking a walk around.
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That's it.
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Sitting sitting somewhere differently, taking um a break from consuming too much.
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It's it it would benefit everyone.
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And so that argument of, well, you can't have that accommodation because then everyone would should be able to.
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I don't think that's a bad thing.
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Well, I think everybody should be able to.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think you'd get more efficiencies from everybody if you do that.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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Controversial opinion, perhaps, or not.
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Yeah.
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And you know, there's people with um higher needs in their autism and ADHD than me might need some an accommodation might be a bit of a longer break or being able to leave the off office for a break, which here is not a question.
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Um, but in previous places I've worked, you that's that's not an option.
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And I'll tell you why it's not a question here is because I've never measured our work based on the number of hours that someone puts in.
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It's actually measured on like completing a task or output.
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Like and the thing is that you're doing when you're actually putting your mind to doing something and you're focused, you're doing it faster anyway.
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So you're probably actually giving me more output by me giving you a longer break or the ability to do that or go home early or whatever it is.
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Like I get more out of you from doing that.
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So why would I not?
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You're gonna you're going to get higher quality work from employees who are well supported.
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Yeah.
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And that is the answer that like I can't believe so many people, uh, so many companies and employers, they don't see that.
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They don't see it that way and would prefer to work people to the bone.
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I I understand like there might be some jobs where maybe the things that we've spoken about are harder to achieve, right?
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I'm thinking something like, say, a supermarket or somewhere where you are like, you know, a restaurant, somewhere you are very customer focused and facing, and you know, you're doing something that um you don't have the ability to maybe alter um moving away from too often.
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But um m my argument to that would be is is actually find a workaround.
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Like let's just take a supermarket, for example.
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Could you maybe have that person working that checkout for a couple of hours and then switch them to a different one that's just slightly different, has faces a different way or has a different seat or um pop them onto doing another job for a couple of hours and then bring them back.
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Yeah.
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And it's up to I mean, a business should have their business model in such a way that they can do that to be able to get the best out of their team and and therefore have happy customers.
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If everything falls apart because you can't do things like that, it's probably not built very structurally sound.
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I would agree.
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I mean, I don't know anything about supermarkets, so my apologies to anybody who's listening who owns or runs or works at a supermarket, and um I'm sure you're extremely efficient and you do all of those things.
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But it was just it was just something that popped into my mind of of an idea.
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Yeah, my experience in workplaces like that, um, restaurants and supermarkets, is it was so much better when there was um balance for me.
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Um nobody, nobody wants to be on a till for 12 hours of their shift.
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Nobody does.
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Nobody can handle that.
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No.
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Um so we're not actually saying unreasonable things whatsoever.
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These are these are just normal things.
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Um it would get to a point for me in my first proper job at a restaurant.
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Um, six hours into being in the till, my I would start getting really panicky and like um trying to fight back a um bit of an involuntary emotional response of being like, I still can't I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel.
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How long am I going to have to say the script repeatedly and talk to people and do the same thing and like there's all these lights and it's loud, and that's not a a neurotypical person would find it hard to sit stand there and talk for six hours.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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Um and you know, it may not look the result of that may not look like a complete meltdown, but I think if a neurotypical person can go to their employer and say that was too much for me, I need to be on something else and that's okay.
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Why is it that different when suddenly their reasoning is disability or autism or ADHD?
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Because I think when that's bought into it, there's this sudden defensiveness.
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Um Whereas most employers would probably understand if someone just said, Oh my god, I'm exhausted from being at a till that long.
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100%.
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When but if you say, um, because of my autism, I can't be, I can't stand being there that long, suddenly the the the goalposts moves.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um, I've found.
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Yeah, I can see what you mean by that.
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Yeah.
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And there's this there's this weird thing about people not deserving um accommodations.
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This weird thing of like, well, this is how life works and you have to deal with it.
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Um which is really, really hard to navigate as um a neurodivergent person in a workplace.
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Um where people who don't understand almost think you should be suffering.
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Which is a is a really way too much.
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It's a it's a rough way to put it, but I've that's from my prior experience, that's kind of how some people see it.
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Um this uh autism didn't exist back in my day.
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It's like it it did, but those people and those people couldn't cope, um and it went undocumented.
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Yeah.
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Um so this a very traditional idea that you shouldn't you don't deserve your accommodations because um you don't deserve more than neurotypical peers is really harmful because it's not it's not giving more.
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It's putting what people don't realize it's putting you on a level playing field.
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And if you're not willing to give those accommodations because you think that way, you're going to miss out on so much strength on your team.
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Well, I I guess other staff members alongside you would see that as a privilege and they think, oh, you're just being lazy.
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Yeah, yeah, exactly.
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I mean So So how do you deal with that?
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If have you ever had anybody say that to you or give you that impression, or like how would you deal with that?
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Um I I've had in the past uh forgetting to do silly little things like having a manager say, you forgot to to clock out yesterday on your shift, what time did you finish?
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And me going, oh my god, I'm so sorry.
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And then, you know, the second time that happens, um it's what is wrong with you?
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Yeah.
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Going, I'm so sorry.
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I can just be so forgetful, but I I know that I finished on time yesterday.
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Um And then I was told off once um saying, just because you have ADHD doesn't mean you don't have to try as hard as the rest of us to do these things.
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Which then, you know, receiving that sort of feedback from a manager immediately went, oh, you don't well, I'm not safe here and you don't get me.
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Right.
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Yeah, yeah, of course.
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Um walls immediately up with um that manager and desperately trying to explain that having ADHD isn't an excuse for doing those things.
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But it is an explanation and um I get that it's taken time out of your day to then ask me what time I finished.
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Um feeling but then I I I would walk away feeling quite defeated that I'm I'm bad at my job because I there are those small things that I'm falling short on.
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But other staff would make other mistakes during the day, other errors here and there, which could be equal, if not larger, mistakes.
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Are they pulled up for those?
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That's the thing is oh you there were I've had other people, neurotypical people do similar mistakes and workplaces and be told, oh, you were being silly, your mind must have been in another place, you must have been stressed or um got a lot going on at home or you're tired or your kids keep you up or what you know, brushing it off like, oh my god, what was going on with you yesterday?
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You forgot to do this.
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Yeah.
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And not having that same not having that same grace because um people automatically see me as see it as an excuse of sorts, which it never has been.
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Um it's just been knowing that about my t myself has just been a tool to understand myself and accommodate how I work to a world that's not built for me.
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Even a hiker doing a hike has poles for stability and for endurance.
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But they are physically capable of walking up that mountain without those poles.
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But think of the toll that it's gonna take on their body, how much quicker they're gonna exhaust themselves, how much more risk of slipping or injury there'd be without that stability.
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Um but just because they can physically do it doesn't mean they aren't allowed to take that hiking pole up the mountain to make sure that they have got the support they need to do it safely for themselves.
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Just because I need some time just because I am physically capable of showing up to work and going about the day like everyone else doesn't mean that I don't deserve to be able the opportunity to do the things I need to do to regulate myself to not cost um myself exhaustion and burnout and frustration and doing my work at a lower quality.
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Yeah.
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It's because at the end of the day, it doesn't actually um having those things, like we've said, doesn't actually make you your work less, it actually makes it more.
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Yeah.
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Okay, so I guess it's not a visible thing that people can see, right?
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So maybe that also is part of it and they think you don't deserve it because they can't see the thing, right?
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But if you had if you had a visible mobility issue or whatever it that may be, it's almost like they let those people have the accommodations they need because they can see it.
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So it's worth more.
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Yeah, I guess I feel incredibly misunderstood by non neurodivergent people.
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Um because of masking as well.
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Nobody nobody sees who I am at the end of the day after you know, after I go home.
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Yeah.
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Nobody sees the consequences of overexerting myself or suppressing stimming or ignoring sensory overload until I can't take it anymore.
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No one's seeing the outcome of that.
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So nobody feels as though it's important.
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I mean, why should it be?
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It's it's not their problem, but if there are small things you can do to improve the quality of a neurodivergent individual's work day, why wouldn't you?
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You've mentioned stimming a couple of times.
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Can you explain what that is?
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Um stimming.
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Um stimming is repetitive behavior for um either emotional expression or regulation.
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So um there you have all the senses, you have um visual, which can look like blinking or watching something or staring into lights for some people.
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Um auditory, um, making sounds, humming, um, repeating sounds and words, um uh especially ones that other people have said, that's called echolalia.
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Um if someone says something that tickles your brain and then you just repeat it back, that's that can be a big one for me sometimes.
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Um tactile, touching textures, rubbing your skin, scratching, um uh then there's movement, um which is called vestibular and proprioceptive feedback.
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So um rocking, bouncing a knee, pacing, um, hand flapping, um, spinning um is a is a big one for autistic kids.
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Um and then in other instances for people, there's things like smelling things and tasting things.
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Um, the feeling of pain can be stimming as well.
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Um, in a lot of cases of people with higher needs, um like hitting yourself can be a stim or like whacking your hand against something.
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And so a stim is something that you need to do.
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Yeah, so um in terms of it, it's it can be pretty involuntary.
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You uh like in in cases where I'm asking, I do uh suppress it.
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Um but it comes out with uh emotional expression, being really excited about something um uh or really anxious about something, or sometimes there is too high or too low sensory input, and so I'm regulating that with output and um being like a few examples of that for me is when I'm I'm focusing, I have my clicky thing at my desk that I'm not convinced doesn't annoy everyone, but everyone swears it doesn't.
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Um I will, you know, have my elbows on the on my desk and like swivel my chair.
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Um the only time of the day that I can think is when I am at pole dance.
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Um and I am spinning repeatedly because it's so I can just blank out and not think and just feel like the force of the spin on my whole body.
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It's like a big hug.
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Um and just watching, and that's visual as well, watching everything just go past me.
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Um being excited, I am a big hand flapper.
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I I keep my uh hands balled and fists a lot.
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Yeah.
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Um one thing we haven't talked about is um like communication with other people, whether that be um, you know, with customers or and that could be written or on the phone or in person, but also like within a team, we have team meetings and we have obviously chats in the office and that kind of stuff and talking through projects or whatever we're doing.
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Um and we have uh the in any workplace there's always a range of different types of people who have different types of communication styles.
00:20:48.099 --> 00:20:50.659
So I don't think that's specific to you.
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It's it it's everybody, but um how do you cope with that?
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Is it is it an issue for you?
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Do you have any coping mechanisms?
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I definitely feel like there is a really big disconnect um between me and neurotypical peers in terms of communication.
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And that's not just at work, like that's in my own personal life, family members that are neurotypical as well, and not understanding um each other um in past relationships as well, having that issue.
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Yeah.
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Um I think there's the element of um things you guys tend to leave things really open-ended a lot, which I can't handle.
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I can't handle it.
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It's hilarious.
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I there is nothing that bugs me more when I ask how you want something done, and you say, just use your judgment.
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I literally did that yesterday to you.
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I turn around and I take a deep breath and I try not to lose my uh lose it over that.
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Yeah.
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Um so I tend to ask a lot of clarifying questions, and they tend to be very hyper-specific because if I don't, and if I just generally ask how you want something done, you'll respond.
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Use your judgment.
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But you actually coped with it really well yesterday.
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So to give context, I was like super behind on our social posting because at the moment um we are building a new product that we're about to launch, which is very exciting.
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Um, it may even very well be launched by the time this goes live.
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So you'll have to check out our socials to see it.
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Um, but what I asked you to do was hey, can you come up with something we can post on our socials?
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And we have like a a plan obviously around that, um, like the types of content that we do.
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Um And but I left it open for you to go and choose something and find something.
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Um and you handled that perfectly.
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I wouldn't have guessed that that was a struggle for you at all.
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Yeah.
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Well you said um you asked me to do a social post.
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Yeah.
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Like that's incredibly open-ended.
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Like, what kind of social post?
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On what platforms?
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When do you want it to go out?
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Like there's so many questions.
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Um and I I was I was so in what I was building and what I was doing.
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I didn't have like time or brain space to like have even thought through all of that stuff.
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I'm like, just go, just go, go, go surprise me.
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Which I was I could pick up on that and I could tell that um that was the case.
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So um uh getting those not being able to do those clarifying questions looked a bit different.
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It looked like doing each step and then being like, any red flags?
00:23:48.659 --> 00:23:49.699
Cool, next step.
00:23:49.859 --> 00:24:02.739
Any red flags like coming from you and getting it that way because um you were so in something and I and I couldn't it um I couldn't have interrupted that because then at that point, like you might as well have done it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um so I I had to internalize that little freak out, and I turned around and I faced my screen and took a few deep breaths and went, okay.
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Everything's fine.
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And you masked that perfectly because I had no idea.
00:24:24.419 --> 00:24:30.819
Um yeah, so it it um you want to know what?
00:24:31.059 --> 00:24:32.739
I haven't even looked at the post.
00:24:33.139 --> 00:24:34.500
I don't even know what your post is.
00:24:34.659 --> 00:24:35.139
Fair enough.
00:24:35.299 --> 00:24:35.859
I have no idea.
00:24:36.099 --> 00:24:36.579
Fair enough.
00:24:36.739 --> 00:24:38.179
I'm sure it's perfect.
00:24:38.659 --> 00:24:47.539
It's fine, it's pretty basic, but um yeah, so so things like that I have my mini panics about.
00:24:47.619 --> 00:24:50.500
And, you know, that wasn't too big of a deal.
00:24:50.899 --> 00:24:58.419
But um, you know, in terms of learning new skills, that that is quite difficult.
00:24:58.579 --> 00:25:01.059
I found that um learning from you in photography.
00:25:01.539 --> 00:25:08.339
Um I asked a lot of questions, very specific questions about the process of things and how to do things.
00:25:08.579 --> 00:25:21.779
And if the answer wasn't specific enough for me to wrap my head around it, I would either panic and hyperfixate on it till I found out, or I'd need to ask more questions.
00:25:22.419 --> 00:25:29.139
Which um, you know, I get a bit in my head about being too irritat irritating in that case.
00:25:29.539 --> 00:25:40.500
See, I I love that you did that with photography though, because uh whilst the example from yesterday was me being very un-detail-oriented, I actually am really detail-oriented in general.
00:25:40.739 --> 00:25:45.299
So the fact that I mean, photography is both an art and a science.
00:25:45.459 --> 00:25:48.819
And if you don't get the science right, you can't even start on the art.
00:25:49.139 --> 00:25:57.539
And so the fact that that was important to you, I loved because it would make me really nervous if someone was like, oh, I'll just, you know, point and shoot and hope.
00:25:57.699 --> 00:26:01.139
Like doesn't work that way for for that particular type of work.
00:26:01.379 --> 00:26:11.139
Yeah, which which is very well coincides with the way I work because unless I'm an expert at something, I don't consider myself someone who can do that thing.
00:26:11.379 --> 00:26:12.019
Sure, yeah.
00:26:12.259 --> 00:26:31.859
Um so needing to know exactly how everything worked and uh know exactly what I was doing, you know, I couldn't even begin to think about um playing around with it till I knew every day detail of what there is to play around with.
00:26:32.659 --> 00:26:43.219
Um so thankfully that's worked um with me and you but some some people find that incredibly annoying.
00:26:43.539 --> 00:27:12.099
Um but are the communication differences, um things, uh how literal something is, not um not getting like I feel like there's so many times that jokes go around the office and they go over my head because I'm just missing something from the puzzle, and then it's like it's not funny by the time I ask why everyone's laughing.
00:27:12.259 --> 00:27:13.539
So I just like well sometimes.
00:27:14.019 --> 00:27:14.979
What happens to the best of us?
00:27:15.219 --> 00:27:19.699
But sometimes I'll just like giggle and move on and like pretend I got it.
00:27:19.939 --> 00:27:23.379
So are there like sayings and stuff like you mentioned before about the whole wombs thing?
00:27:23.459 --> 00:27:28.179
Like, are there sayings that you've like come across now that you're like, oh my god, like I had no idea.
00:27:28.500 --> 00:27:42.179
Yeah, I um I've learned recently that I didn't get I didn't sleep last night doesn't actually mean that you haven't slept.
00:27:42.899 --> 00:27:44.259
Ha, that's so interesting.
00:27:44.419 --> 00:27:48.419
And people go, oh my god, I barely like I didn't get any sleep at all last night.
00:27:48.659 --> 00:27:50.179
They didn't pull an all-nighter.
00:27:50.579 --> 00:27:56.899
They're actually just meaning it was of poor quality, or they woke up a couple of times, or took them a while to get to sleep or whatever.
00:27:57.059 --> 00:27:57.219
Yeah.
00:27:57.379 --> 00:28:01.219
It doesn't actually mean they didn't sleep at all, which I thought that's what that meant.
00:28:01.299 --> 00:28:03.619
I only recently like figured that one out.
00:28:04.019 --> 00:28:06.179
That that's what people mean.
00:28:06.419 --> 00:28:07.859
How did you figure it out?
00:28:08.099 --> 00:28:15.379
Um, honestly, someone asking about it online, uh a neurodivergent person being like, Do you guys not meet?
00:28:15.539 --> 00:28:20.419
And I saw that post and I looked at the comments, I was like, oh my God, that's so funny.
00:28:20.979 --> 00:28:23.699
And there's a lot of things I've found out that way.
00:28:23.859 --> 00:28:24.259
Yeah.
00:28:24.419 --> 00:28:28.899
Um, through online community that it doesn't mean what I thought it did.
00:28:28.979 --> 00:28:29.299
Uh-huh.
00:28:29.539 --> 00:28:42.500
Um, something that has gotten in between like me and family or um stuff in the past is when someone says something needs doing, they're not, it's not a statement.
00:28:42.739 --> 00:28:44.099
That's them telling you to do it.
00:28:44.259 --> 00:28:48.500
So if someone says the dishwasher needs doing, I go, yeah, it does need doing.
00:28:48.579 --> 00:28:49.699
That's statement.
00:28:51.379 --> 00:28:53.859
I've had to learn the hard way by getting in trouble.
00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:56.019
Is that that's someone asking me to do something?
00:28:56.259 --> 00:28:58.819
Is that just a failure of the English language, do you think?
00:28:59.139 --> 00:29:02.019
But why would you why would you do that by not asking?
00:29:02.179 --> 00:29:07.859
And it is often I I clarify, like you say, we need a DJ.
00:29:08.179 --> 00:29:12.179
And then I go, does that is that you asking me to put on music?
00:29:12.500 --> 00:29:12.979
Of course.
00:29:13.139 --> 00:29:14.019
I do that all the time.
00:29:14.259 --> 00:29:16.500
And I always ask you if that's what you meant.
00:29:16.659 --> 00:29:17.059
Yeah.
00:29:17.299 --> 00:29:22.339
Um, because I'm like, why would you why would you tell me to do something by not telling me to do it?
00:29:22.579 --> 00:29:23.699
That is such a valid point.
00:29:23.939 --> 00:29:26.659
I'm gonna pull myself up on stuff like that going forward.
00:29:26.979 --> 00:29:27.139
Yeah.
00:29:27.299 --> 00:29:38.019
Uh yeah, it has gotten me in a lot of trouble with uh chores, uh, probably uh more times than my mum would have liked, has had to tell me off for not doing things.
00:29:38.099 --> 00:29:38.500
Yeah.
00:29:38.659 --> 00:29:42.339
Um, because apparently she told me to do them, and I'm like, when was that?
00:29:42.819 --> 00:29:45.939
And then she thinks you're just being like selective hearing, right?
00:29:46.019 --> 00:29:49.219
But actually you just didn't understand because there was no directive.
00:29:49.459 --> 00:29:49.699
Yeah.
00:29:49.859 --> 00:29:50.179
Yeah.
00:29:50.419 --> 00:29:52.259
Um there's a few other things.
00:29:52.419 --> 00:29:53.459
Where did I put it?
00:29:53.619 --> 00:29:54.659
Oh, yeah.
00:29:55.299 --> 00:30:00.099
Um I guess one is see you later.
00:30:00.819 --> 00:30:04.899
Um, people just say that um as a casual goodbye.
00:30:05.059 --> 00:30:05.299
Yeah.
00:30:05.459 --> 00:30:05.939
Of course.
00:30:06.179 --> 00:30:17.699
Um but it always makes me stop and panic because I'm like, did we have plans later in the day that I'm supposed to, and I always like have a moment where I'm like, have I forgotten something?
00:30:17.939 --> 00:30:18.579
Oh my gosh.
00:30:18.819 --> 00:30:21.699
And then it's and I realize I'm just saying goodbye.
00:30:21.779 --> 00:30:26.899
But it always causes like an initial panic of like, wait, I'm supposed to see you like later today.
00:30:27.139 --> 00:30:28.500
Because it's so literal.
00:30:28.579 --> 00:30:28.739
Yeah.
00:30:28.979 --> 00:30:29.459
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:29.539 --> 00:30:37.379
So people say it, you know, after when they're leaving work and instead of like see you tomorrow.
00:30:37.459 --> 00:30:37.859
Uh-huh.
00:30:38.500 --> 00:30:41.219
And I go, oh my god, was there something on today?
00:30:41.539 --> 00:30:42.419
Oh wow.
00:30:42.659 --> 00:30:48.579
Um and it yeah, it gives me anxiety that I've forgotten something.
00:30:48.739 --> 00:30:51.539
But that doesn't actually mean that they'll see you later.
00:30:51.699 --> 00:30:54.179
Which I'm like, why would you say that if that's not the case?
00:30:54.419 --> 00:30:54.819
Yeah, for sure.
00:30:55.059 --> 00:30:56.099
It's incredibly frustrating.
00:30:56.339 --> 00:30:56.739
I bet.
00:30:57.139 --> 00:31:03.379
Um People saying, um, like we should catch up sometime.
00:31:03.539 --> 00:31:03.939
Mm-hmm.
00:31:04.579 --> 00:31:13.379
Um, and in my head, that means that it is um that's an act of invitation that needs to be scheduled.
00:31:13.619 --> 00:31:14.179
Yes.
00:31:14.500 --> 00:31:16.819
But it's just politeness.
00:31:17.139 --> 00:31:19.539
I reckon that one could go both ways though.
00:31:19.699 --> 00:31:22.739
Like I've been in circumstances where I'm like, what do they mean by that?
00:31:23.059 --> 00:31:26.899
Yeah, but the fact that you have to question that is annoying, right?
00:31:27.139 --> 00:31:27.619
It is annoying.
00:31:27.859 --> 00:31:28.419
It is annoying.
00:31:28.500 --> 00:31:28.579
Yeah.
00:31:28.819 --> 00:31:29.459
Like 100%.
00:31:30.099 --> 00:31:33.379
Is this something that needs to be scheduled?
00:31:33.459 --> 00:31:34.899
Should I ask you when you're free?
00:31:35.219 --> 00:31:36.899
Or sometimes I do, and that's not what they want.
00:31:37.219 --> 00:31:46.500
Well, if I because I've I I would say that to people sometimes, but the reason I would say that would be like, because I want to like v gauge whether they want to catch up or not.
00:31:47.139 --> 00:31:47.939
Like, yeah.
00:31:48.179 --> 00:31:48.500
Yeah.
00:31:48.659 --> 00:31:50.819
So that's I would be trying to be polite.
00:31:50.899 --> 00:31:54.259
That would be my way of being polite of like, well, I want to see what you think.
00:31:54.979 --> 00:31:55.619
Yeah.
00:31:56.099 --> 00:32:01.299
Um it it confuses me because it can be so open-ended because it's used in so many ways.
00:32:01.379 --> 00:32:01.859
Yeah.
00:32:02.099 --> 00:32:06.579
Um same with like, I'll just be a minute.
00:32:07.299 --> 00:32:09.459
That could mean 10 minutes.
00:32:09.619 --> 00:32:10.899
That could mean 20 minutes.
00:32:11.139 --> 00:32:12.579
Yeah, that one annoys me as well.
00:32:13.699 --> 00:32:16.899
No rule on how much time that is.
00:32:17.139 --> 00:32:18.259
Or I'll just be a sec.
00:32:18.500 --> 00:32:19.059
Hold on a sec.
00:32:19.299 --> 00:32:20.099
Hold on a sec.
00:32:20.819 --> 00:32:21.939
What the heck does that mean?
00:32:22.179 --> 00:32:23.459
What the heck does that mean?
00:32:23.779 --> 00:32:27.299
It and it's never consistent between each person and each situation.
00:32:27.459 --> 00:32:34.819
There's no, there's no and and that's what I don't like about it is because a lot of my social cues rely on me learning rules.
00:32:34.979 --> 00:32:35.379
Yeah.
00:32:35.459 --> 00:32:39.139
Uh and observing people and learning the rules of how I should be.
00:32:39.699 --> 00:32:45.939
And when there is something that doesn't stick to one rule, it's incredibly frustrating and I can never put my finger on it.
00:32:46.019 --> 00:32:48.339
And I'm seeing always lost.
00:32:48.659 --> 00:32:52.819
Um and open-ended things like calling something casual.
00:32:52.979 --> 00:32:58.179
If the dress code is casual, that means a million different things.
00:32:58.500 --> 00:33:00.739
Uh see, I'm with you on a lot of these things.
00:33:00.819 --> 00:33:01.059
Yeah.
00:33:01.219 --> 00:33:02.339
I really, I really am with you.
00:33:02.659 --> 00:33:04.500
I mean, it all makes sense when you point them out, right?
00:33:04.579 --> 00:33:07.059
Because they are all open-ended things that don't mean one thing.
00:33:07.459 --> 00:33:08.179
Absolutely.
00:33:08.500 --> 00:33:11.059
But be specific on those things, though.
00:33:11.139 --> 00:33:11.699
They're important.
00:33:11.859 --> 00:33:12.819
Well, they're important to me.
00:33:12.979 --> 00:33:15.299
I some people they're probably not important too.
00:33:15.459 --> 00:33:21.619
But like, I need to know am I gonna be under-dressed, overdressed, or on point.
00:33:22.099 --> 00:33:30.659
Well, this is the thing, is somebody might hear that the dress code is casual and then use the context clues of the event and prior experience to be like it's this level of casual.
00:33:30.819 --> 00:33:31.139
Uh-huh.
00:33:31.539 --> 00:33:38.819
Whereas I I can never seem to connect those dots, and I and I doubt it constantly.
00:33:38.979 --> 00:33:44.979
Like, well, if I showed up in sweatpants, you know, then you could be like, oh my god, what are you doing?
00:33:45.219 --> 00:33:46.579
Yeah, and see and casual.
00:33:46.819 --> 00:33:51.299
And then for me, like the lowest level of casual I would see is jeans.
00:33:52.979 --> 00:33:55.219
I never would have considered sweatpants.
00:33:55.699 --> 00:34:03.139
See, this is why things need rules and clear definitions and boundaries, because I have no clue what these things mean to different people.
00:34:04.179 --> 00:34:10.500
And then comes all the clarifying questions, and then I often get like, oh, I don't know, I haven't even figured out what I'm gonna wear it.
00:34:10.659 --> 00:34:12.820
It's like, but what what ballpark is it?
00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:16.260
Help! Like you must have some idea of what it's gonna be like.
00:34:16.659 --> 00:34:21.940
Yeah, like are we talking in sweatpants or like ball dress or somewhere in between?
00:34:22.260 --> 00:34:31.539
Yeah, because um, like there's so many levels to casual, but they're yeah.
00:34:32.099 --> 00:34:44.980
And there's also the element of taking things literally in a way of not like knowing what they mean, but I always imagine the first thing in my head I imagine is the visual of it.
00:34:45.139 --> 00:34:51.139
Like, um uh that's a hill I will die on.
00:34:51.300 --> 00:34:57.460
Immediately in my head, I can picture that person on a hill dead and or dying.
00:34:57.619 --> 00:34:59.139
And like I know that's not what they mean.
00:34:59.219 --> 00:35:06.900
I I I I know they don't mean they're gonna go up on a hill and die on something, but but like I picture it.
00:35:07.139 --> 00:35:12.179
Like it's raining cats and dogs, and immediately I get a visual of cats and dogs falling from the sky.
00:35:12.339 --> 00:35:17.460
And it sounds really silly, but I can't I can't not.
00:35:18.019 --> 00:35:19.859
I'm kind of jealous, to be honest.
00:35:20.019 --> 00:35:21.619
I wish I could imagine stuff like that.
00:35:21.699 --> 00:35:23.779
Well, not the hellbet, but the cats and dogs for sure.
00:35:23.940 --> 00:35:26.259
I have a very vivid imagination.
00:35:26.420 --> 00:35:26.739
Do you?
00:35:27.139 --> 00:35:29.299
Some people can't see.
00:35:30.980 --> 00:35:31.139
Yeah.
00:35:31.299 --> 00:35:32.500
Yeah, that blows my mind.
00:35:32.739 --> 00:35:38.099
I used to put myself to sleep as a kid by watching movies in my head.
00:35:38.659 --> 00:35:44.099
And I and I didn't realize that people can't visualize their concepts.
00:35:44.339 --> 00:35:44.579
Yeah.
00:35:44.819 --> 00:35:46.420
But I'm like, it's like here.
00:35:46.900 --> 00:35:49.219
There's like a there's like a movie screen here.
00:35:49.380 --> 00:35:50.819
How are you, how are you not?
00:35:51.299 --> 00:36:04.900
I don't know if I could describe it for me that specifically, but I can just if someone says like visualise, they often I I think online you read like they say visualize an apple, that's like the one they always go to.
00:36:05.699 --> 00:36:06.739
Like a red star or something.
00:36:06.819 --> 00:36:07.699
How vivid is the star?
00:36:08.179 --> 00:36:11.299
Yeah, mine's all glittery and sparkly and like Yeah.
00:36:11.460 --> 00:36:11.940
Yeah.
00:36:12.739 --> 00:36:17.139
Like I can and I can see detail and all that straight away in my version of it.
00:36:17.299 --> 00:36:31.139
But I don't know how someone um could uh function and think without seeing things, but that goes to say some people have an internal like monologue, but like they talk to themselves in their head.
00:36:31.219 --> 00:36:32.420
I'm not talking to myself.
00:36:32.819 --> 00:36:36.420
That's an interesting one, and it's I believe that's quite common of ADHD.
00:36:36.980 --> 00:36:59.779
I'm well like I I can't hear one internal monologue but I it is so interesting because sometimes I do get into it and I imagine thinking things through, but they come through more of imagining conversations.
00:37:00.019 --> 00:37:00.259
Yes.
00:37:00.339 --> 00:37:01.059
Yeah, I do that.
00:37:01.219 --> 00:37:05.699
As opposed to like like if you're like run well, generally I do it like after the fact.
00:37:05.779 --> 00:37:10.739
I'm like, oh, but if the conversation had gone this way, then I would have said this and I could have said this and Yeah.
00:37:10.900 --> 00:37:11.139
Yeah.
00:37:11.380 --> 00:37:23.059
But that it that's different to when people refer to their internal monologue and they're um thinking about what they're gonna have for dinner.
00:37:23.139 --> 00:37:24.259
They're everyday task.
00:37:26.019 --> 00:37:28.739
What am I going to have for dinner tonight?
00:37:29.059 --> 00:37:30.259
I'm not thinking that.
00:37:30.420 --> 00:37:30.579
No.
00:37:30.980 --> 00:37:36.420
I'm not, it's not that far, but I am picturing a movie in my head of how of me cooking it.
00:37:36.900 --> 00:37:37.380
You know?
00:37:37.699 --> 00:37:38.420
That's cool.
00:37:38.900 --> 00:37:39.539
I'm kind of jealous.
00:37:39.779 --> 00:37:41.460
It's really interesting how brains work, isn't it?
00:37:41.619 --> 00:37:42.179
Yeah, it really is.
00:37:42.339 --> 00:37:47.380
Yeah, I don't know how you could um how you could function like that.
00:37:48.099 --> 00:38:06.099
Okay, so if you were to give some advice to um neurotypical people in the workplace on the things that um would help them dealing with neurodivergent people, what kind of advice would you give to neurotypical people?
00:38:06.420 --> 00:38:31.059
You don't necessarily need to understand the in and outs of a neurodivergent employee and how their brain works, but you can have the understanding that a difference in uh support needs, in behavior, in learning approaches, um, does not they're not weaknesses.
00:38:31.539 --> 00:38:48.500
Um and if you think those things can dictate someone's capability just because it is different, um I I would go as far as to say that that's maybe a narrow-minded view on what intelligence can be.
00:38:48.659 --> 00:38:48.980
Yeah.
00:38:49.219 --> 00:39:16.739
And if you allow people to work the way that they need to, um, because nobody knows themselves better than themselves, especially someone who's had to go through a whole journey of finding out uh that they are neurodivergent, and then having to relearn their place in society and what that looks like and their relationships with others, they know what they need.
00:39:17.619 --> 00:40:19.299
And um just having that understanding that just because they're different and there's a different accommodation of process um of what completing something looks like doesn't take away from the value of that employees or colleague or peer that those things are not mutually exclusive, and someone can be different to you without um lacking the same value as you do, which sounds self-explanatory and like common sense to a lot of people, but there is such a stigma around these things and what people actually believe to be intelligence and um this idea that that not normal is equal to um weakness.
00:40:20.659 --> 00:40:23.539
That is incredibly good advice, Billy.
00:40:23.779 --> 00:40:47.859
Um you are um full of so much information about this, and I am sure that so many people from whatever direction they're coming at this from, whether they align with everything that you've said and understand you because they have similar things going on for themselves, or or if they are um someone more like me who is maybe an employer um or even a colleague of someone, I think you have covered all the bases.
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:51.539
So thank you so much for being so open and willing to share.
00:40:52.099 --> 00:40:52.819
Thank you.
00:40:52.980 --> 00:41:04.099
Um it's a bit scary, but you know, every neurodivergent person is full of knowledge about themselves and um knows themselves very well.
00:41:04.339 --> 00:41:10.739
And if you want to have a conversation with these sorts of people in your own life, I'm sure you'd learn so much.
00:41:11.139 --> 00:41:23.299
Yeah, and don't be afraid to ask questions because you very well may find out that um actually just a couple of tiny adjustments here and there might make all the difference to their lives and to yours.
00:41:23.460 --> 00:41:27.699
So yeah, thanks again, and um yeah, this has been awesome.
00:41:27.940 --> 00:41:28.819
Thank you for having me.
00:41:29.219 --> 00:41:29.779
Very welcome.
00:41:30.019 --> 00:41:34.819
Thanks so much for joining the Visual Marketing Podcast brought to you by CI Marketing.
00:41:34.980 --> 00:41:38.819
I'm your host, Liz, and I can't wait to share more episodes with you.