Owain: TV Belie! Season two! season two. I'll be honest
Tim: Yes. Season two. Season two. Hey everybody.
Owain: with you. I am hello everyone. I am even more surprised to be here than I was to be at the end of season one. The fact that we finished the first season, that was impressive. The fact that we came back for a second season, that's that's nothing short of miraculous. You
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: know, I missed you, buddy. It's really good to be back. I f I feel
Tim: Yeah, likewise. Yeah.
Owain: like this I don't think I'm understating it when I say that this has been the summer of Mentalist. Have you felt that too? I mean, it's
Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Owain: I I I'm gonna I'm gonna nerd out a bit now and d and give some stats because I know that
Tim: Lay yeah, lay it on me.
Owain: the show came back in March of this year on Netflix internationally. And within three months, we were up to the top five globally, which for a show that finished 10 years ago is just extraordinary. I just want to say we are so here for it. Thank you. Thank you so, so much for the love, the support. it's wonderful for us to be interfacing with fans, to be hearing directly, either on social media or through the podcast, We are just so
Tim: Thank you very much.
Owain: thrilled and we are here. And we're so excited to get into season two of the TV police. The show has come back a little later than we wanted, but we're back, we're ready to go. And I think the cadence for this season, just in respect of everything that you and I have got going on, we decided to do a two week release, right? So it will be a new episode coming out every two weeks. Is that what we agreed on? But
Tim: Mm-hmm. yeah. That's
Owain: I mean, knowing us it'll
Tim: yeah.
Owain: that'll that'll likely change. So who knows?
Tim: season two, episode one, redemption, solidifying what we set up, and now there is no question about who these people are and what their mission is. And we're just now now it's off to the races in in a very big way. we have found our groove.
Owain: And it's interesting because we're Yeah, a hundred percent. I know we talked a lot about season one sort of finding out where we were, the ups and downs of different episodes that were sort of more on theme, some that weren't. This
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're off and running now. Yeah.
Owain: we're we are up and running and also a very confident start. I f I as I was looking back through records, fifteen point eight million people, I think, or
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: thereabouts tuned in for this episode, which
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: happened to air right around So 24th of September 2009. So goodness me, that is what? That's like, gosh, that's 15 years ago. I cannot believe it. Because, you know, not aside from the fact that I look the same, you know, maybe, maybe even younger, you know, and it it it really does feel like yesterday, doesn't it? I was very happy when I turned this episode on and I saw Terry Kinney come on. Because as you know, I had a few bromances on this show, none as lauded or venerable as obviously Chigsby. But Terry Kinney, well, he was, you know, Eric Winter, definitely one that was up there, you know.
Tim: Wow. Wow. Eric Winter. That was that was the yeah. Yeah.
Owain: but I I gotta say, in early guest stars. I I was I was very in love with Terry Kinney. He's
Tim: And and to me, Terry was in lot of films that I revered growing up. And
Owain: Me too.
Tim: so when I saw him and was and had a chance to work with him, it's quite a treat.
Owain: I think it it takes a certain kind of actor to come into a show when it's literally at the top of its game. I mean, we are now I believe that this was the year that Simon was either about to get nominated or was getting nominated for a Globe and an Emmy. So that first season
Tim: That scene with Simon, he did not miss a beat. It was so good.
Owain: and I can't tell you also how difficult that is as a guest actor. Do you know what I mean? And we'll come on to that in our analysis, but you and I have both guested i in shows, you know, and and
Tim: You've said that. Yeah. You've said that in in you said it in a very funny way last season, you know. Come on, be brilliant, and then FO You know what I
Owain: Yeah. Yeah, seriously. Simon, at that point, he needs a big actor to be able to push against him, because otherwise. You just get steamrolled by someone who is very confident, very assured in what they're doing, and has got all the momentum in the world. So, you know, I think it was a wonderful piece of casting. Also, an interesting thing, an interesting place to pick up, I thought, to be kind of throwing your main protagonist off the big case. Do you know what I mean? We've started in a way that is so not linear, which I I I really love. And I think that's that's Bruno's genius. We're gonna separate the Jane character and we're gonna have him be removed from the case, which is quite a bold thing to do after we've really, really lifted it up. Because episode 23 of season one was we're on the case now. We're deep into Red John. So you would have expected maybe to pick it up. I like that. I like that push and pull. I feel like that was a very smart way of doing it. Do you remember
Tim: Mm.
Owain: feeling any more or any less pressure coming into this season? We we've got the holy grail. Haven't we? We've got the hit show.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: You know you're getting picked up. You've been picked up. That's always a nice feeling. Never a nice feeling as an actor for the show to be picked up. And then I don't know if people know at home, but they always make you wait a minute before they pick you up as an actor too. So it's like, okay, the show's
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Owain: picked up. That's good. Am I picked up? good, I'm picked up too. Now we can celebrate. Good. So
Tim: Right.
Owain: how did that feel to you?
Tim: you asked this question in a different form because it was a different context for season one.
Owain: Yeah.
Tim: how did you feel about the character? Brand new, this is you know, one of the No,
Owain: Yeah, I'm just wondering season over season what what that felt like
Tim: there was never any doubt in this show I had doubts, will I get picked up? All that stuff that that that you just mentioned. But I didn't have any doubts about what we were actually doing. for me, it was the five of us were just hitting it on all we were we
Owain: Vibin'
Tim: were just on all thrusters. And so for me, I've given you my best. If the audience doesn't like it, if the numbers aren't great, I I can't do any more. So All that pressure is actually off of me now.
Owain: is there is a tendency
Tim: you know.
Owain: to dissect those things though, isn't there? And we and we did it regularly. Like, you know, a and and this is something that maybe people
Tim: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sure.
Owain: at home don't really appreciate that and and perhaps it's less now in network TV because you used to live and die so squarely by these big inflated numbers. Because especially pre-streaming, it it that was your main index. It was like, are you playing to X many millions? Do you have this many share of the TV audience?
Tim: Mm-hmm. To the right millions, uh-huh.
Owain: Exactly. And if you don't have those things, then it's game over or it's game over pretty quickly. Whereas nowadays you can perform to way less. You can make it up years later on, you know, streaming. I mean, you can have a show completely reinvent it. Our show now is having its in you know, its second sort of life because of streaming. So I I feel like that belonged to a moment. I do rem I do remember as a young actor jumping onto things like TV by the numbers dot com.
Tim: Yeah, yeah. No yeah, of course. Yeah.
Owain: Or T V line and you and like and and I would try and I think I was a little bit more agitated. You were always a bit more of a cool customer about these things,
Tim: Ha ha ha
Owain: but you're like, I don't know, maybe you were at home just like just as wound up about it as I was, but but by the time you came in, you're like, that's all good.
Tim: I wasn't. I I wasn't.
Owain: but no, I know you weren't. Iceman, see the Iceman. but I but I remember being like there was a real coup if you could get like, I've got the numbers, I've got the numbers, like and how how are they?
Tim: Right, right, of course. Yes, yes, yeah.
Owain: You know, and you're like, we'll we're gonna live another week. you'll notice the the expensive upgrades that we've had for season two, like our our scenery.
Crystal Watanabe: Plants love it.
Tim: what gets me was when we were doing our episode with Crystal last season, and I s I'm still kicking myself, was Crystal's reaction when I told her I've thrown away all my old scripts. Like she was like, Are you kidding me? Yeah.
Crystal Watanabe: We we we we talk about that all the time, you know. Like
Owain: Mm. Ugh what I would give now
Crystal Watanabe: in in Discord every everybody talks about it. We're like, Tim threw away all his scripts
Tim: To get those back. Yeah.
Owain: To get those back. I was just like, just can't have all this paper around. Just get rid of it. And you know,
Crystal Watanabe: Ha ha.
Owain: just two guys who are like on the scrap heap. Just forward,
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: onward. one thing that we noticed from your beloved episode last season, Crystal, was that there is no one with a finer understanding from a fan perspective and from a Redditor perspective of the things that sort of catch fans' attentions, the little nuggets of information that we're not as familiar with.
Crystal Watanabe: I have
Tim: Yes.
Crystal Watanabe: a fan favorite from the episode and that would be When Jane apologizes to Lisbon. Because you know, when he tells
Owain: Love that moment.
Crystal Watanabe: when he tells her that he has nothing else to do. It's it's
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Crystal Watanabe: really sad because it's part of his character, right? But then he gives her a big hug and he's often so dismissive of her concerns, But to see him so contrite and agreeable for once, it's it's a nice moment. And plus since she's not a hugger, watching him like tackle her like that is kinda cute.
Owain: Mm-hmm. I love that moment. I thought that was a genuine human connection. And at a point also where I don't think the show has made up its mind whether there's going to be a romance there. Do you know? I feel like Lisbon and Jane for the early shippers are still very much in fraternal mode.
Tim: So was
Owain: Love that.
Tim: the was his quitting in the at the top of the show just a big act? I mean, do you think that was just a knee jerk reaction to being taken off the case? But he had he had
Crystal Watanabe: I I think so, yeah.
Tim: no intention of leaving, right?
Crystal Watanabe: Mm. I mean I think maybe at first he was just like, you know, 'cause he's kind of a man child, right? So the first thing is when when yeah, yeah,
Tim: Right. He's pitching a bit. Yeah. He's Yeah.
Owain: Yeah, we we literally just talked about that, yeah.
Crystal Watanabe: yeah. So he's just like, whatever, I'm I'm leaving then. But when he actually stops and thinks about it, he's like, Well, actually I I don't wanna leave. Yeah. Yeah. Like like he said, he has nothing better to do. Yeah.
Tim: I don't have anything. Yeah. I don't know what to do. Yeah.
Owain: Also, I think that, you know, the his whole reason for being is the pursuit of Red John. And, you know, yes, on a trivial level he has nothing to do, but the minute he severs that connection, he cannot be in pursuit of the person who killed his family.
Tim: There really is no, yeah.
Owain: So there really is no he does sort of end. And I think part of the Jane journey has been
Tim: Because staying with the team, at least he has sort of an oblique relation, right, to to the case or to to the investigation, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Owain: I think it's just that thing of distracting himself too, distracting himself as well. Do you know what I mean? I mean, like we we get this alluded to a little bit in the first season, the the mental hospital. I think
Tim: Mm.
Owain: if Jane is left in the in a moment where he's not occupied, it's just
Crystal Watanabe: Yeah.
Owain: a slow descent back into mental unwellness. Whereas this allows him to be buoyant, distracted, getting on with other things,
Crystal Watanabe: so shipper spotlight, so I know you just said that fraternal and there's the the whole brother sister camp but for the the actual hardcore shippers, we all think it was there from the beginning and he has to keep it at bay because he doesn't want to put her in danger And he also feels like he doesn't deserve her. so he struggles with self loathing and self worth But there's this one short moment It's right after they talk to the family. and then they get back together outside the house and Lisbon is talking to Van Pelt and Jane checks the time by like j lifting up her wrist and just checking the time on her on her watch. this is one of the early signs that they were familiar with each other, they were comfortable with each other. They're still in
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Crystal Watanabe: like the slow burn phase and he can't I I don't like I think it works for later when he has he struggles really hard to come to terms with how he feels about her. So and I think it's just compounded by little moments like this. You know, he he has
Tim: Mm.
Owain: I agree.
Crystal Watanabe: the I I think he has these feelings but he just denies them so hard that, you know, they don't really count, but they count.
Owain: I think it's about it's about layering, isn't it? You know, every we talked about this last year. Great TV shows are moments, great love stories are moments. And I think what we're setting up right now are those little moments. In the same way that we're seeing this growing proximity between Lisbon and Jane as a unit, Rigsby and Cho's bromance, we were talking about, is in full effect. We're now feeling comfortable as a team. I think you're absolutely right. season two, episode one, redemption, written by Bruno Heller, directed by Chris Long. Jane is livid when he's taken off the Red John case and it's transferred to Sam Bosco, who clearly has some history with Lisbon. the main plot, which investigates the murder of Monica Dunninger. Who is believed to have done a runaway with over a million dollars Only to find out that in fact she has been living in silence and keeping the secret and funding cancer treatment for her son and funnel the money back to her family in an incredible act of compassion. So diving straight into this episode was, you know, we got a lot of catch-up work to do, I think, to this feels again almost like a pilot, doesn't it? So you know, season
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: two, episode one. You have to there's that definitely that feeling of for those of you who didn't watch season one, here is what the mentalist is about. So
Tim: Here's the recap. Yeah.
Owain: here's the recap. And I think that, you know, what's interesting is that we have this device in the show where we start with what we call the Almost the overlap, the false murder, the the
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: the the dead case, the case that's not going anywhere. And that y
Tim: Just to remind you what what powers of observation our mentalist has, we will give you these first five
Owain: Exactly. We
Tim: minutes of showcasing his talents.
Owain: And I think that that was quite a a new device. I remember talking to Chris Long about this because the usually what most procedural shows and what no most network shows will do in the what's called the cold open is that they will set up the the case for the show. That's what makes sense. What's interesting about this is that the case for the show has nothing to do with the case that we're solving in the cold open. But what it
Tim: Right, right, right.
Owain: does do to your point is that it shows Jane in action. And it's for those of you who aren't familiar with the show. This is what the mentalist, or as the security guard calls him, Karnak. This is his sort of party tricks. This is what he does. And there was an awful lot of,
Tim: Police officer. Yeah.
Owain: yeah, this was an awful lot of throwback, I thought, to the themes that we were setting up in the pilot. Even when he's dancing with one
Tim: Loved it. Yeah.
Owain: of the, you know, the direction that was that was hailing back to the same kind of dance that he did with Van Pelt.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: What was interesting tonally, I thought, was did you feel like Jane was a little bit meaner coming into this season? I I was quite sort of it felt noticeably like there was a little bit of Grumpiness or petulance or something there that felt a little less warm than we'd seen. Right.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. absolutely. I think that was Simon kind of calibrating still, you know. Where is Patrick Jane going to live?
Owain: Yeah.
Tim: you know, he he's just kind of poking around because i if you will notice and you know, we will all will notice in the seasons to come, it's there's a bit more consistency.
Owain: Yes.
Tim: to to the way that Patr Patrick Jane is presented. this time you picked up on it. episode one, season two. There's a little bit more of an edge to him. I I I liked it actually. It it gave us a glimpse into it.
Owain: I I did too. And I thought I thought it sort of poked at the you know, Jane is a great channeler of energy. And I think that the, you know, when you've got that woman who who lords the do you know who my husband is? That that woman, you know,
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Owain: he hits her back with the sort of same i disrespectful energy. I I think it's It it's worth referencing, you know. You and I recently had the good fortune of reconnecting with Bruno Heller. We had a nice
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: Zoom with him and had a chat with him. And I remember something that he said was that there's an incredible deftness and skill to be able to play a character like Patrick Jane because there is something inherently antagonistic and mean about him. And so you have to be tremendously charming to carry that and still be likable, which Simon is, whilst you're needling and you're sort of Trying to consciously provoke people, because I think that's part of the mentalist act and the way the mentalist skills work, certainly in this opening interrogation scene. this is the kind of tonal shift that you will expect from this show. A guy who can be equal parts, charming and lovely and disarming with his smile, but also get under your skin and be needling and be mean and be a bit personal. And I think p to be able to calibrate that and carry both of those things, that's not easy.
Tim: Well, I think it's also the writing as well to this point, right? We've only got twenty-four episodes down to this point, right? As the writing also starts to get more confident and and the writers understand who these characters are as well, so go the performances. It was a situation dealing with the petulant lady. and so the only way that you're gonna be able to address that kind of a person is with that same energy, right? The
Owain: Sure. Yeah.
Tim: the easy smile charm is not gonna work on somebody like that, right?
Owain: Yep. Yep.
Tim: Now, I would argue that later on in the season and later seasons, Simon. Is comfortable taking that easy smile and charm and tackling even individuals like that. he will become confident in the character to be able to handle people like that with that easy smile and it will work in all situations. He won't let it get under his skin, is is is my observation.
Owain: Agreed, and I think that that's a defense mechanism, but I think what was interesting about this episode was that it really brought out the duality of Jane. You know, there is a there there is a problematic moral compass there. And I think you see it if we fast
Tim: But we don't but we don't see I'm saying we don't but we don't see this in a lot in subsequent seasons. We don't see this edgy sort of attitude because he's not put into those situations necessarily later on in later seasons, I'm saying.
Owain: I don't I don't know. I I think there's a sort of here's the thing, and this is why this episode is such a good like tipping off point for a discussion like this, is that
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Owain: i Jane is super motivated by one governing factor, and that is finding the serial killer that killed his family. And so, you know, the minute that that gets taken away from him. There is a side to him that is a little bit malevolent. I mean, like you fast-forward all the way to the end of the episode, what he's doing is damnright illegal when he's trying to, you know, pretend to be Bosco. And it it it would seem like at any cost and at any length, I am staying on this. And he's sort of one of those characters that when you keep him sweet and you give him what he wants, all good, you know? But when you don't
Tim: Well that's well that's what I'm saying is that is that we do keep him sweet. what I'm saying is he owns the CBI in season three, in season four, in season
Owain: Sure.
Tim: five, in season six. He's the boss of CBI, not Hightower, not Manelli. You know what I mean?
Owain: Mm-hmm.
Tim: He's always happy in seasons three, four, five, and six. That's what I'm saying, is that we don't see that. you take the lollipop away from the kid and the anger that comes from that because we never take the lollipop away from the kid anymore. This was the time we did that, is my point. Right?
Owain: Sure, sure. I and I actually really liked that because I I thought that that
Tim: I do too.
Owain: created an interesting tension. And I think that a as supporting cast members, we've often talked about the frustrations of having to be the anti-mentalists.
Tim: But
Owain: I thought from a from a team dynamic there was some interesting thing going things going on here outside of you
Tim: I loved it. Loved it.
Owain: know, I I really loved the way that we you know, I felt like the Chigsby engine was picked up very firmly. And and I loved the fact that in this, you know, most serious of moments, as we're chasing down the lover of the dead suspect, we're having that kind of side banter because. That is how I imagine real well, that's how I know real cops ch speak, you know. And
Tim: That is how it is. Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: the the
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: dual conversation between chasing down Bodie, finding him in this ridiculous situation in the container. Talking about your gang past with the Avon Park Playboys, which I just loved. I thought that was amazing. I I thought Bruno continued his wonderful trend of giving us some of the most incredible names. I mean, we had Bodie Andros.
Tim: Well, Miles Thorsen,
Owain: Miles Miles Thorsen, I wanted to speak about entirely separately because it's a whole device, as we've discussed with with with Ken. Yeah. Well, I'll be honest with you. I thought the I I thought the
Tim: Well the the device was awesome. but the name, come on. It's Bruno at his unique name finest. That's up there with Undine Kopecchi.
Owain: the the more challenging one for me was Ansel who had cancer. Because it for some reason that there was this weird rhyming thing. It was just like when Ansel had cancer. And and I was like, why would you of all the names you could pick, why would you do that? Like So many. I but I wonder
Tim: But you know what? There were so many of those, man. I mean we're gonna be talking Yeah. The rhyming? Cho Rigsby scene was my exhibit A. That was my favorite moment in the episode
Owain: yeah, I I I loved that too. I I I did love that. I
Tim: Yeah, that that was my vote for exhibit A. I felt like much like the rest of the episode, the bromance in full swing. you and I as actors coming into that scene. We know what we're doing, and we're gonna take that little isolated moment and and then just run with it for for the for the next few years and it's really fantastic.
Owain: W also I think I think you and I were just we we were we knew each other so much better. We'd spent a year working together. And I
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: think that ease just in our own lives was now pervading the characters. So it the beauty of a a show like that.
Tim: Yeah. But you know, I have to I have to mention this, there's certain people that you walk on to set and you just click. And you you were one of those people, right? It it there was it was easy. That's the best way to put it.
Owain: Likewise. Yeah. Likewise.
Tim: and and for for the for the people out there that aren't performers necessarily. You know, you you come into a scene, you're working with your scene partner. you throw your lines out there, and it's really akin to throwing a ball. And when you say your line, you throw the ball, I would throw the ball to Owen.
Owain: And I just bat it away. Not interested. Not interested.
Tim: Yeah, yeah, and ruin the scene. So you know, he would catch it and, you know, mess around with it and change it a little bit and do something cool with it and then throw it back to me. And that really c and and the idea in a scene is to kind of keep that ball in the air, right? And not bat it away. and so you know, that easy banter, that easy throwing the ball back and forth and and make and and it came alive. The scene came alive. So you know, you're you're you're you're the man, so
Owain: Agreed. I I I couldn't agree more, mate. Likewise, back at you. And it it's what we used to call in drama school yes and as opposed to no but. It it's
Tim: Yes.
Owain: a dream to be in a a scene with someone who takes what you're offering and says yes and this, as opposed
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: to going, No, but me you know. And goodness knows we've all worked with some of those people too. So it it's I I think we were very lucky not to have.
Tim: That just stops the everything, you know? Yeah. yeah. Then you're kinda sitting there going then then you're kinda sitting there going, All right, well what do I w w what do I do now? You know, yeah.
Owain: I thought Bodie, as ridiculous as he was, especially in California. We we know people like that. There are people like that. the bit where he's talking about her just saying, Yeah, she's just so into that kid, and when she was sick, and like and all the family stuff, and like. And it's a wonderful moment with you when you're
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: in the interrogation. I wonder if did you notice the presence of technology suddenly had been amped up? Like you made a big scene of having the camcorder in the interrogation room. We'd never done that before. And y
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: and there was two interrogations in this scene where camcorders were suddenly pre- present. Was there a big camcorder moment in 2009 or something?
Tim: Well no, no, no. I think that I think that was just a product of them trying to potentially use the camcorder screen as an insert. Just a fun
Owain: I think so too.
Tim: sort of interrogation insert. But you know, we did we didn't need it. We didn't need it. In fact, most of the interrogations and that kind of thing played in the other room, right? Observation. That's how we got our sort of fly on the wall moment is through the observation room. Rather than coming in close on the on the actual camcorder screen. so we didn't need it, yeah.
Owain: Yeah. But that's what I always appreciated about Chris Long. Chris Long, I think, was always looking for fun, inventive visual moments. And, you
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: know, kudos to him because I did notice that. I did notice an attempt to, you know, we haven't even talked about the I believe the opening credits for season two were new, right? We
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: dispensed with the whole mentalist a, you know, the definition. And now we're
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: into that kind of what I call the the more retro seventies, the saint, or you know.
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, right, right.
Owain: Like it it it felt very kind of like that I'm I can't remember how long that triptych sort of purpley, bluey, yellowy mentalist graphic lasted, but that was for a good good chunk of the whole show, right? That we used that that opening. So
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Owain: y there is definitely I I think probably from the creative team an attempt to want to keep all the things that are working. But at the same time, like you say, innovate, which is what we're trying to do with TV Police. What's working, great. Now, how do we just tweak it enough to keep the people who are coming back for that same thing? Don't want to make
Tim: Trees.
Owain: it too exactly. Add some fake trees, you know? I already I know that the people who the people who
Tim: Yeah. Spare no expense. Yeah.
Owain: love T V police are gonna be like, wait a second, those are new. I'm gonna watch just for that now. I mean
Tim: Wait, hang on, that's didn't see that last season.
Owain: I didn't see that last season. if nothing else, I want to know what this is about.
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: So, you know, we've we're we're we're gonna at least retain, I would say, 30, 40% of our audience just out of just out of plant curiosity. So, you know, that's maybe more. Maybe more. It i
Tim: Forty percent, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're being conservative. I think upwards of seventy, eighty on just on the plants alone. That's you know.
Owain: exactly. but the I I thought there were some wonderful moments for Van Pelt too. I thought Van Pelt.
Tim: Yes.
Owain: being given a little bit of agency, being able to be out in the field, you know, quite often
Tim: And I and I love that moment that Amanda played when she got off the phone with yeah, it was so so great. I was just like I s
Owain: Yes Yeah Yeah, it was so real. I loved that too.
Tim: I was smiling ear to ear, going, You go get go get you know, like
Owain: I was too. I was too. Because we don't get a lot of those moments or a lot of the listen, I mean, it's in many respects, and this is not to detract from any any lead performance, it it it's it can become a showcase and it's easy to be the show boat, but when you have little moments to be able to show, you know, and that for me was a like I I I was just so fondly watching that, thinking, you know, and it was it was sort of queuing up everything that I knew was coming. Like you felt like Van Pelt was now getting her feet under the table as the new agent. She was no longer the rookie, she was being trusted. Jane was still taking it away from her. Good instinct, probably wrong, but good instinct. You know, it's like you don't have to be that mean, you know. And
Tim: Right.
Owain: but there was I thought what was interesting also, and this is why I liked the Bosco device. With and God bless Manelli, you know, we've talked about how wonderful Greg is, Greg Itzin I think there is, and I wish that we'd seen a bit more of this throughout the seasons. Lisbon's really caught in a genuine conflict moment between the institution and Jane. And we don't see, I think, in later seasons enough of that. And you know, she tries to reframe it with By talking to him and saying, you know, maybe it's a good thing. Maybe we can't get the distance. Maybe you, you know, you are not the fresh set of eyes that this Red John case needs. And of course, you know, Jane being a dog with a bone doesn't listen. But
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: I I thought I would have loved to have seen a little bit more of that energy from Lisbon. Because I think that
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: that conflict to me, I because there was a moment when he's like, Well, I'm done then. I'm I'm I'm done with the Red John of it all, where I was like, This is ridiculous that we're now just keeping him on and allowing him to. It made sense with him as a consultant for a murder that he had maybe insight into. The fact that he was then saying, I'm done and I'm now just gonna tag along. For me, that that exposed a little bit of the absurdity of it. Do you know what mean? It it was a bit strange because
Tim: Bit of a reach. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Owain: it had me for the first time questioning: why on earth are we just basically bringing along. a street performer to solve these things. Cause I thought I think it also just undermines the agency.
Tim: Well, that's Bosco though. I think Bosco Bosco speaks for that ridiculous side of it, right? And addresses it. You're a you're a you're a you're a party performer, you're a clown, yeah. You're you're a victim. You're not a detective.
Owain: Right. Right. A clam. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: He so because and this is another brilliant Bruno move, he Brosco says it. Bosco says it. So he brings it out into the open. We're not trying to hide anything. We know he knows that Jane shouldn't be here. So that gives us license to have Jane here and and makes it okay. It's sort of a sleight of hand that happens,
Owain: But let's talk about Bosco because I think he is a wonderful way to I think towards the end of season one, we saw Jane getting so much of his own way, and I think a show can become At risk of becoming not boring, but samey, if you don't have viable and worthy adversaries. And I think
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: that Terry was so wonderfully cast in this role because he's disarmingly charming and funny. And what I loved about the way he came in to play Bosca was he's not on the high horse. In fact, he plays it a little bit on the back foot, like the way he and he
Tim: Well he play to me to me he alwa
Owain: He almost Jane's Jane, which I love.
Tim: Yeah, he well to me he was sort of the traditional old school like what while Jane has that showmanship and the polish and the presentation, he might wear shabby clothes But he's still that showman. Bosco to me, the way Terry came in with it was that sort of disarming Old school gumshoe, you know, kind of a schlub, kind of very non-threatening. But if you push him, and that's why when when Lisbon says, you're gonna go have a meeting with Bosco, good luck. he he will tear you a new one. And and he does. So
Owain: Well, I th I think and I think I think Jane really underestimates him. And what I mean is
Tim: Yes, yes.
Owain: is that, you know, underneath that sort of gumshoe exterior was a man who was very psychologically attuned. You know, he starts off with the whole,
Tim: Yeah, adapt, yes.
Owain: shouldn't be doing this, you know, basically committing adultery by having this hot dog, you know, we which is great. And even
Tim: Yeah right. Love that. Love that. Yeah.
Owain: the even the little off center things that I noticed as an actor lovely tricks like Terry turns around, tosses a bottle of water. That catches Patrick Jane. Like, those are the kind of things that Jane usually does to other people. there's this sort
Tim: Yeah. Off guard. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Lovely. Yeah.
Owain: of feeling of each other out. Jane puts the hand on the shoulder, it's mirrored, you know, Bosco
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: does it, then Jane does it. And then the sort of hubris of the showman comes out where he's like, I know who you are, but I think it's gonna take you a little while to figure out who I am. And then he just completely dismantles him and says, These are all the things. And what I loved about that was that it really did show. I think the shallowness of Jane's suitability to be on this journey. You know, yes, he has good instincts. Yes, he closes cases. But the truth of the matter is that he's driven by this really unhealthy and very personal connection to the case. And I think when you put that up against the logic of a decent cop, yeah.
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Minnelli says as much. Yeah, that's why he got yanked off the case. Manel Manelli says as much, yeah.
Owain: And and I think that for me i the introduction of Terry was a very worthy one. Not just you needed an actor of that status to be able to come in there and he filled those shoes, but also the way in which he did it I thought was very clever. It was very sort of
Tim: it's understated and then it just he hits you over the head with it. It's great. It's really
Owain: Yeah. Let's talk quickly about the Miles Thorsen device because this was something that Ken had mentioned last season. Do you remember? Yeah, when he was like,
Tim: I do remember. Yeah. This is what it is. Yeah.
Owain: This is a Miles Thorsen. So in the Oceans 11 style, we've got ourselves a Leon Spinks or a Miles Thorsen
Tim: Yeah. I liked it. I liked it. Yeah.
Owain: And I the Miles Thorsen device is a good one because it
Tim: I didn't realize what it was when Ken mentioned it. And then when
Owain: I didn't either. And I think the Miles Thorsen thing does work. It is one it is a play. Plant the seed
Tim: Yeah, plant that seed everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Owain: it's an amazing psychological piece. I was watching a one of those real life true crime things, and the the amount of times killers orbit the crime scene is really unnerving. Do you know? And
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: I guess it's just human nature to sort of want to try and know. So the device of what he calls in that lovely scene that you and Jane have together fishing, you know, like it is. It he's fishing. one of my favorite moments of this episode, my exhibit A's, aside from the lovely dynamic that we had, was the the interrogation that you have with Bodie and then you're just fresh out of ideas and you end it with, do you know who Miles Thorsen is? Cause I just love was that improvised or was that written?
Tim: Just what's that?
Owain: Did you improvise that line? The the it was because
Tim: No, no, no. That that line was there. That line was there.
Owain: it f it felt like something you'd improvised. You did it so well and it was so
Tim: No, that that line was there. but to me it was funny because, you know, the the straight and narrow Cho is just gonna take a flyer now, right? Like this like this guy,
Owain: I know and I love that. And and I thought what was interesting
Tim: this guy is a moron. do you know Miles Thorsen Like, let me just try that.
Owain: I well the the way you threw it away was just great. I and I did think what what was interesting was you know, Cho, who's been so by the book, you took a few flyers on this one. Like, you know, when we're
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: at the house. no, I th I think I heard someone in there. And it of all people, it took Rigsby to go, we're trespassing,
Tim: Well i that's what well
Owain: we're
Tim: that's what I that's what I thought was interesting because in the van you were saying, Hey boss, we need we need Jane, right? but then when push comes to shi
Owain: Yeah. was a sort of an about face.
Tim: when push comes to shove going into the house, Rigsby got cold feet, and the usually straight arrow cho goes, Yeah, I think I heard something in there. Let's go, you know, and and I'm on I'm on board with your shenanigans, you know. So
Owain: Well, what was nice was maybe Yeah, yeah. What was nice was that maybe this is a call back to the Avon Park Playboy in him. Do you know what I mean? And that's
Tim: Yeah, right. Right.
Owain: the the the do the duality that can live in show in all of these characters, but in that, that
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: that's something I always wanted to dig more into. working logically through the rest of the episode. I thought it was a hard job for the for the bereaved family. I think that those roles are always very difficult, aren't they? I thought the daughter was very real. what was her name? Kessie or Kelsey or something? yeah,
Tim: Cassie, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Owain: she was great. It it's very hard to make a lot of those those roles. You know what I mean? It's like you're the terminally ill kid who's recovered, you're the bereaving dad who's lost, like, and there's so much weight in those things, and you've got maybe three lines to show it, you know, and
Tim: Right.
Owain: I think that that is tremendously challenging. I also had a little bit of a hard time, and this is where sometimes I think the show can try and get a little bit. Too clever for its own good. Sometimes, for me at least, maybe I'm just a little bit slow on the pickup, there's almost one too many red herrings. So that by
Tim: Mm.
Owain: the time we got to it being the head of the the printing company, being the woman who was actually
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Owain: responsible, I I I'd done such mental gymnastics to get there. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it's the lover, it's not the lover, okay. Well then it's someone else, and then maybe it's the the accounting guy because the accounting guy seemed to have some motive and then it's not him. And then suddenly it was almost like that was a whole other layer. And because the Miles Thorsen trap had become almost more important than the actual suspect that it trapped, you almost forgot. Was that just me or did you feel like that too?
Tim: You forgot yeah, right. Forgot about. No, no, I picked up on I picked up on that too, and I'm glad you brought that up. Can you explain to me what the deal was with the the the ledger switcheroo? What what how did that happen? my question is, where did Jane discover that book? the history of the fax machine Where where did he where did he
Owain: It was in it was in her it was in her articles that were recovered. Do you remember Lisbon earlier in the episode says it says these are
Tim: It was in her articles that were recovered. Yes, yes, yes. So that's it. So that's it.
Owain: his these are her personal articles? And he actually says when he's sitting down with you, why would she be reading the history of the fax machine? I think the the tell is this book is
Tim: Yes. I forgot about that.
Owain: exactly what you said. This book is so not a book that anyone would read, go to my local library now and see if they have a history of the facts machine just to see if anyone has put anything
Tim: Right.
Owain: really cool or like, you know, like maybe I don't know, maybe there's a million dollars in there.
Tim: But I look, even though even though it is obscure and a little bit stretches the imagination, I think that's a cool sort of device. Yeah.
Owain: It's a great idea. Here's here's the thing, right? And it's interesting that Chris Long actually addresses it in the little featurette that he does Talks about our show doesn't talk down to the audience. It doesn't belittle our audience. It treats them as super smart. I think sometimes it i I was in the show. It's still a bit beyond me. You know, like we
Tim: It's too smart. Right, right.
Owain: know, we talk about this all the time. Bruno's a smart guy. He's a very clever
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: guy. And, you know, I think that I I To even now as we talk about it, I'm still not entirely sure we have the conceit. But I think the basic conceit is that she wanted to have a record for her redemption that showed what was really going on and that the corruption was taking place at the boss level and not for her. And I think then
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Owain: the boss why the boss let her get away with that, I'm not entirely sure. Or that it
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: was the boss that was cooking the books, not her. She made her take the fall for it and then said, I will pay for your son to have the treatment. You need to disappear. Here's your million bucks. So season two, episode one, redemption. A great
Tim: Yes, sir.
Owain: way to kick off, a lot of the scenes and themes that we saw in season one, kicking us off for a new season and reintroducing us, to all of the things that made the show the big hit that it was in season one. I think queuing up an awful lot of Wonderful things for us to be digging into as the show goes on. A complicated, duality-filled episode on many fronts, some new protagonists, some new antagonists. I think a lot for us to sort of dig into as the show goes on. And just before we sign off on season two, episode one, I just wanted to do my own callback to something from season one The s the one thing that we did leave, from last season was the knitting. Now, you know, there was some there was some doubt that I would ever be able to pull this off, you know. I I I I got slightly motivated by the the fugazi that you tried to pull on me when, you know, when you were like, I did some knitting. And then of course you just spoke to your neighbour, Crystal, who just threw something together for you. So what I did was I actually I templated a crocheting video, and I and I went to work over the summer. So may I introduce you to the TV police scarf that I have like and and and by the way. I this was probably I mean I would say it's it's almost as big as me. Like it it's yeah. Yeah. So I'm pretty proud of this.
Tim: Hang on, hang on, hang on, real quick. just let me know where where did you buy that?
Owain: I didn't buy this, I made this. I knitted it. I I literally with my own these hands are raw from from just
Tim: One one hundred percent you needed that.
Owain: One hundred percent. A hundred and ten percent. Cause I I thought to myself, you know what? The only way to clap back at Tim is to just get Yeah.
Tim: On let me let me see some evidence. I'm gonna need some evidence that Crystal
Owain: What
Tim: didn't just send that to you.
Owain: Can't believe how dare you? How dare
Tim: Well
Owain: you like look at this? This is this is man's work here. I mean, like, look at that. It's hours and hours of
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That no, it's it's impressive. It is impressive. Now my
Owain: Thank you. Thank you.
Tim: guess is that Crystal was at work for the past four or five months. In fact
Owain: Impossible.
Tim: I think I remember her saying she was doing something like that and then sent it to you. Is that not what happened?
Owain: No, that would well that would that would just feel like a bum repeat gag, you know, like why would I do that? Like you already did that,
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's amazing.
Owain: The really I'd only be I'd only be cheating myself, Tim, if I was if I was wearing this, claiming that I'd thank you, thank you. That's all I that's all I needed. That's
Tim: Yeah. That that's phenomenal. That's phenomenal. Yeah.
Owain: that and any resemblance that it bears to either the typeset or crochet pattern of the TV police that you had done by Crystal is purely coincidental. yeah. On that note, I think I think that that firmly wraps things up in a nice knitted bundle, right?
Tim: Yeah, so to so to speak. Join us next week when Owen is gonna still have the scarf on from today for
Owain: Yeah, I I I will still be wearing the scarf. And I'll also show you my I'll show you my blanket that that I also made.
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: So this is it's the tip of the iceberg.
Tim: Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
Owain: been a joy to reconnect and to do this again. And I can't wait to do it next week and and for the next twenty-three weeks.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Season season two, episode two, The Scarlet Letter. Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: Let's get at it. Until then, we have been the TV police.
Tim: Please
Tim: Yes. Season two. Season two. Hey everybody.
Owain: with you. I am hello everyone. I am even more surprised to be here than I was to be at the end of season one. The fact that we finished the first season, that was impressive. The fact that we came back for a second season, that's that's nothing short of miraculous. You
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: know, I missed you, buddy. It's really good to be back. I f I feel
Tim: Yeah, likewise. Yeah.
Owain: like this I don't think I'm understating it when I say that this has been the summer of Mentalist. Have you felt that too? I mean, it's
Tim: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah.
Owain: I I I'm gonna I'm gonna nerd out a bit now and d and give some stats because I know that
Tim: Lay yeah, lay it on me.
Owain: the show came back in March of this year on Netflix internationally. And within three months, we were up to the top five globally, which for a show that finished 10 years ago is just extraordinary. I just want to say we are so here for it. Thank you. Thank you so, so much for the love, the support. it's wonderful for us to be interfacing with fans, to be hearing directly, either on social media or through the podcast, We are just so
Tim: Thank you very much.
Owain: thrilled and we are here. And we're so excited to get into season two of the TV police. The show has come back a little later than we wanted, but we're back, we're ready to go. And I think the cadence for this season, just in respect of everything that you and I have got going on, we decided to do a two week release, right? So it will be a new episode coming out every two weeks. Is that what we agreed on? But
Tim: Mm-hmm. yeah. That's
Owain: I mean, knowing us it'll
Tim: yeah.
Owain: that'll that'll likely change. So who knows?
Tim: season two, episode one, redemption, solidifying what we set up, and now there is no question about who these people are and what their mission is. And we're just now now it's off to the races in in a very big way. we have found our groove.
Owain: And it's interesting because we're Yeah, a hundred percent. I know we talked a lot about season one sort of finding out where we were, the ups and downs of different episodes that were sort of more on theme, some that weren't. This
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We're off and running now. Yeah.
Owain: we're we are up and running and also a very confident start. I f I as I was looking back through records, fifteen point eight million people, I think, or
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: thereabouts tuned in for this episode, which
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: happened to air right around So 24th of September 2009. So goodness me, that is what? That's like, gosh, that's 15 years ago. I cannot believe it. Because, you know, not aside from the fact that I look the same, you know, maybe, maybe even younger, you know, and it it it really does feel like yesterday, doesn't it? I was very happy when I turned this episode on and I saw Terry Kinney come on. Because as you know, I had a few bromances on this show, none as lauded or venerable as obviously Chigsby. But Terry Kinney, well, he was, you know, Eric Winter, definitely one that was up there, you know.
Tim: Wow. Wow. Eric Winter. That was that was the yeah. Yeah.
Owain: but I I gotta say, in early guest stars. I I was I was very in love with Terry Kinney. He's
Tim: And and to me, Terry was in lot of films that I revered growing up. And
Owain: Me too.
Tim: so when I saw him and was and had a chance to work with him, it's quite a treat.
Owain: I think it it takes a certain kind of actor to come into a show when it's literally at the top of its game. I mean, we are now I believe that this was the year that Simon was either about to get nominated or was getting nominated for a Globe and an Emmy. So that first season
Tim: That scene with Simon, he did not miss a beat. It was so good.
Owain: and I can't tell you also how difficult that is as a guest actor. Do you know what I mean? And we'll come on to that in our analysis, but you and I have both guested i in shows, you know, and and
Tim: You've said that. Yeah. You've said that in in you said it in a very funny way last season, you know. Come on, be brilliant, and then FO You know what I
Owain: Yeah. Yeah, seriously. Simon, at that point, he needs a big actor to be able to push against him, because otherwise. You just get steamrolled by someone who is very confident, very assured in what they're doing, and has got all the momentum in the world. So, you know, I think it was a wonderful piece of casting. Also, an interesting thing, an interesting place to pick up, I thought, to be kind of throwing your main protagonist off the big case. Do you know what I mean? We've started in a way that is so not linear, which I I I really love. And I think that's that's Bruno's genius. We're gonna separate the Jane character and we're gonna have him be removed from the case, which is quite a bold thing to do after we've really, really lifted it up. Because episode 23 of season one was we're on the case now. We're deep into Red John. So you would have expected maybe to pick it up. I like that. I like that push and pull. I feel like that was a very smart way of doing it. Do you remember
Tim: Mm.
Owain: feeling any more or any less pressure coming into this season? We we've got the holy grail. Haven't we? We've got the hit show.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: You know you're getting picked up. You've been picked up. That's always a nice feeling. Never a nice feeling as an actor for the show to be picked up. And then I don't know if people know at home, but they always make you wait a minute before they pick you up as an actor too. So it's like, okay, the show's
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Owain: picked up. That's good. Am I picked up? good, I'm picked up too. Now we can celebrate. Good. So
Tim: Right.
Owain: how did that feel to you?
Tim: you asked this question in a different form because it was a different context for season one.
Owain: Yeah.
Tim: how did you feel about the character? Brand new, this is you know, one of the No,
Owain: Yeah, I'm just wondering season over season what what that felt like
Tim: there was never any doubt in this show I had doubts, will I get picked up? All that stuff that that that you just mentioned. But I didn't have any doubts about what we were actually doing. for me, it was the five of us were just hitting it on all we were we
Owain: Vibin'
Tim: were just on all thrusters. And so for me, I've given you my best. If the audience doesn't like it, if the numbers aren't great, I I can't do any more. So All that pressure is actually off of me now.
Owain: is there is a tendency
Tim: you know.
Owain: to dissect those things though, isn't there? And we and we did it regularly. Like, you know, a and and this is something that maybe people
Tim: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Sure.
Owain: at home don't really appreciate that and and perhaps it's less now in network TV because you used to live and die so squarely by these big inflated numbers. Because especially pre-streaming, it it that was your main index. It was like, are you playing to X many millions? Do you have this many share of the TV audience?
Tim: Mm-hmm. To the right millions, uh-huh.
Owain: Exactly. And if you don't have those things, then it's game over or it's game over pretty quickly. Whereas nowadays you can perform to way less. You can make it up years later on, you know, streaming. I mean, you can have a show completely reinvent it. Our show now is having its in you know, its second sort of life because of streaming. So I I feel like that belonged to a moment. I do rem I do remember as a young actor jumping onto things like TV by the numbers dot com.
Tim: Yeah, yeah. No yeah, of course. Yeah.
Owain: Or T V line and you and like and and I would try and I think I was a little bit more agitated. You were always a bit more of a cool customer about these things,
Tim: Ha ha ha
Owain: but you're like, I don't know, maybe you were at home just like just as wound up about it as I was, but but by the time you came in, you're like, that's all good.
Tim: I wasn't. I I wasn't.
Owain: but no, I know you weren't. Iceman, see the Iceman. but I but I remember being like there was a real coup if you could get like, I've got the numbers, I've got the numbers, like and how how are they?
Tim: Right, right, of course. Yes, yes, yeah.
Owain: You know, and you're like, we'll we're gonna live another week. you'll notice the the expensive upgrades that we've had for season two, like our our scenery.
Crystal Watanabe: Plants love it.
Tim: what gets me was when we were doing our episode with Crystal last season, and I s I'm still kicking myself, was Crystal's reaction when I told her I've thrown away all my old scripts. Like she was like, Are you kidding me? Yeah.
Crystal Watanabe: We we we we talk about that all the time, you know. Like
Owain: Mm. Ugh what I would give now
Crystal Watanabe: in in Discord every everybody talks about it. We're like, Tim threw away all his scripts
Tim: To get those back. Yeah.
Owain: To get those back. I was just like, just can't have all this paper around. Just get rid of it. And you know,
Crystal Watanabe: Ha ha.
Owain: just two guys who are like on the scrap heap. Just forward,
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: onward. one thing that we noticed from your beloved episode last season, Crystal, was that there is no one with a finer understanding from a fan perspective and from a Redditor perspective of the things that sort of catch fans' attentions, the little nuggets of information that we're not as familiar with.
Crystal Watanabe: I have
Tim: Yes.
Crystal Watanabe: a fan favorite from the episode and that would be When Jane apologizes to Lisbon. Because you know, when he tells
Owain: Love that moment.
Crystal Watanabe: when he tells her that he has nothing else to do. It's it's
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Crystal Watanabe: really sad because it's part of his character, right? But then he gives her a big hug and he's often so dismissive of her concerns, But to see him so contrite and agreeable for once, it's it's a nice moment. And plus since she's not a hugger, watching him like tackle her like that is kinda cute.
Owain: Mm-hmm. I love that moment. I thought that was a genuine human connection. And at a point also where I don't think the show has made up its mind whether there's going to be a romance there. Do you know? I feel like Lisbon and Jane for the early shippers are still very much in fraternal mode.
Tim: So was
Owain: Love that.
Tim: the was his quitting in the at the top of the show just a big act? I mean, do you think that was just a knee jerk reaction to being taken off the case? But he had he had
Crystal Watanabe: I I think so, yeah.
Tim: no intention of leaving, right?
Crystal Watanabe: Mm. I mean I think maybe at first he was just like, you know, 'cause he's kind of a man child, right? So the first thing is when when yeah, yeah,
Tim: Right. He's pitching a bit. Yeah. He's Yeah.
Owain: Yeah, we we literally just talked about that, yeah.
Crystal Watanabe: yeah. So he's just like, whatever, I'm I'm leaving then. But when he actually stops and thinks about it, he's like, Well, actually I I don't wanna leave. Yeah. Yeah. Like like he said, he has nothing better to do. Yeah.
Tim: I don't have anything. Yeah. I don't know what to do. Yeah.
Owain: Also, I think that, you know, the his whole reason for being is the pursuit of Red John. And, you know, yes, on a trivial level he has nothing to do, but the minute he severs that connection, he cannot be in pursuit of the person who killed his family.
Tim: There really is no, yeah.
Owain: So there really is no he does sort of end. And I think part of the Jane journey has been
Tim: Because staying with the team, at least he has sort of an oblique relation, right, to to the case or to to the investigation, right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Owain: I think it's just that thing of distracting himself too, distracting himself as well. Do you know what I mean? I mean, like we we get this alluded to a little bit in the first season, the the mental hospital. I think
Tim: Mm.
Owain: if Jane is left in the in a moment where he's not occupied, it's just
Crystal Watanabe: Yeah.
Owain: a slow descent back into mental unwellness. Whereas this allows him to be buoyant, distracted, getting on with other things,
Crystal Watanabe: so shipper spotlight, so I know you just said that fraternal and there's the the whole brother sister camp but for the the actual hardcore shippers, we all think it was there from the beginning and he has to keep it at bay because he doesn't want to put her in danger And he also feels like he doesn't deserve her. so he struggles with self loathing and self worth But there's this one short moment It's right after they talk to the family. and then they get back together outside the house and Lisbon is talking to Van Pelt and Jane checks the time by like j lifting up her wrist and just checking the time on her on her watch. this is one of the early signs that they were familiar with each other, they were comfortable with each other. They're still in
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Crystal Watanabe: like the slow burn phase and he can't I I don't like I think it works for later when he has he struggles really hard to come to terms with how he feels about her. So and I think it's just compounded by little moments like this. You know, he he has
Tim: Mm.
Owain: I agree.
Crystal Watanabe: the I I think he has these feelings but he just denies them so hard that, you know, they don't really count, but they count.
Owain: I think it's about it's about layering, isn't it? You know, every we talked about this last year. Great TV shows are moments, great love stories are moments. And I think what we're setting up right now are those little moments. In the same way that we're seeing this growing proximity between Lisbon and Jane as a unit, Rigsby and Cho's bromance, we were talking about, is in full effect. We're now feeling comfortable as a team. I think you're absolutely right. season two, episode one, redemption, written by Bruno Heller, directed by Chris Long. Jane is livid when he's taken off the Red John case and it's transferred to Sam Bosco, who clearly has some history with Lisbon. the main plot, which investigates the murder of Monica Dunninger. Who is believed to have done a runaway with over a million dollars Only to find out that in fact she has been living in silence and keeping the secret and funding cancer treatment for her son and funnel the money back to her family in an incredible act of compassion. So diving straight into this episode was, you know, we got a lot of catch-up work to do, I think, to this feels again almost like a pilot, doesn't it? So you know, season
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: two, episode one. You have to there's that definitely that feeling of for those of you who didn't watch season one, here is what the mentalist is about. So
Tim: Here's the recap. Yeah.
Owain: here's the recap. And I think that, you know, what's interesting is that we have this device in the show where we start with what we call the Almost the overlap, the false murder, the the
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: the the dead case, the case that's not going anywhere. And that y
Tim: Just to remind you what what powers of observation our mentalist has, we will give you these first five
Owain: Exactly. We
Tim: minutes of showcasing his talents.
Owain: And I think that that was quite a a new device. I remember talking to Chris Long about this because the usually what most procedural shows and what no most network shows will do in the what's called the cold open is that they will set up the the case for the show. That's what makes sense. What's interesting about this is that the case for the show has nothing to do with the case that we're solving in the cold open. But what it
Tim: Right, right, right.
Owain: does do to your point is that it shows Jane in action. And it's for those of you who aren't familiar with the show. This is what the mentalist, or as the security guard calls him, Karnak. This is his sort of party tricks. This is what he does. And there was an awful lot of,
Tim: Police officer. Yeah.
Owain: yeah, this was an awful lot of throwback, I thought, to the themes that we were setting up in the pilot. Even when he's dancing with one
Tim: Loved it. Yeah.
Owain: of the, you know, the direction that was that was hailing back to the same kind of dance that he did with Van Pelt.
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: What was interesting tonally, I thought, was did you feel like Jane was a little bit meaner coming into this season? I I was quite sort of it felt noticeably like there was a little bit of Grumpiness or petulance or something there that felt a little less warm than we'd seen. Right.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. absolutely. I think that was Simon kind of calibrating still, you know. Where is Patrick Jane going to live?
Owain: Yeah.
Tim: you know, he he's just kind of poking around because i if you will notice and you know, we will all will notice in the seasons to come, it's there's a bit more consistency.
Owain: Yes.
Tim: to to the way that Patr Patrick Jane is presented. this time you picked up on it. episode one, season two. There's a little bit more of an edge to him. I I I liked it actually. It it gave us a glimpse into it.
Owain: I I did too. And I thought I thought it sort of poked at the you know, Jane is a great channeler of energy. And I think that the, you know, when you've got that woman who who lords the do you know who my husband is? That that woman, you know,
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Owain: he hits her back with the sort of same i disrespectful energy. I I think it's It it's worth referencing, you know. You and I recently had the good fortune of reconnecting with Bruno Heller. We had a nice
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: Zoom with him and had a chat with him. And I remember something that he said was that there's an incredible deftness and skill to be able to play a character like Patrick Jane because there is something inherently antagonistic and mean about him. And so you have to be tremendously charming to carry that and still be likable, which Simon is, whilst you're needling and you're sort of Trying to consciously provoke people, because I think that's part of the mentalist act and the way the mentalist skills work, certainly in this opening interrogation scene. this is the kind of tonal shift that you will expect from this show. A guy who can be equal parts, charming and lovely and disarming with his smile, but also get under your skin and be needling and be mean and be a bit personal. And I think p to be able to calibrate that and carry both of those things, that's not easy.
Tim: Well, I think it's also the writing as well to this point, right? We've only got twenty-four episodes down to this point, right? As the writing also starts to get more confident and and the writers understand who these characters are as well, so go the performances. It was a situation dealing with the petulant lady. and so the only way that you're gonna be able to address that kind of a person is with that same energy, right? The
Owain: Sure. Yeah.
Tim: the easy smile charm is not gonna work on somebody like that, right?
Owain: Yep. Yep.
Tim: Now, I would argue that later on in the season and later seasons, Simon. Is comfortable taking that easy smile and charm and tackling even individuals like that. he will become confident in the character to be able to handle people like that with that easy smile and it will work in all situations. He won't let it get under his skin, is is is my observation.
Owain: Agreed, and I think that that's a defense mechanism, but I think what was interesting about this episode was that it really brought out the duality of Jane. You know, there is a there there is a problematic moral compass there. And I think you see it if we fast
Tim: But we don't but we don't see I'm saying we don't but we don't see this in a lot in subsequent seasons. We don't see this edgy sort of attitude because he's not put into those situations necessarily later on in later seasons, I'm saying.
Owain: I don't I don't know. I I think there's a sort of here's the thing, and this is why this episode is such a good like tipping off point for a discussion like this, is that
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Owain: i Jane is super motivated by one governing factor, and that is finding the serial killer that killed his family. And so, you know, the minute that that gets taken away from him. There is a side to him that is a little bit malevolent. I mean, like you fast-forward all the way to the end of the episode, what he's doing is damnright illegal when he's trying to, you know, pretend to be Bosco. And it it it would seem like at any cost and at any length, I am staying on this. And he's sort of one of those characters that when you keep him sweet and you give him what he wants, all good, you know? But when you don't
Tim: Well that's well that's what I'm saying is that is that we do keep him sweet. what I'm saying is he owns the CBI in season three, in season four, in season
Owain: Sure.
Tim: five, in season six. He's the boss of CBI, not Hightower, not Manelli. You know what I mean?
Owain: Mm-hmm.
Tim: He's always happy in seasons three, four, five, and six. That's what I'm saying, is that we don't see that. you take the lollipop away from the kid and the anger that comes from that because we never take the lollipop away from the kid anymore. This was the time we did that, is my point. Right?
Owain: Sure, sure. I and I actually really liked that because I I thought that that
Tim: I do too.
Owain: created an interesting tension. And I think that a as supporting cast members, we've often talked about the frustrations of having to be the anti-mentalists.
Tim: But
Owain: I thought from a from a team dynamic there was some interesting thing going things going on here outside of you
Tim: I loved it. Loved it.
Owain: know, I I really loved the way that we you know, I felt like the Chigsby engine was picked up very firmly. And and I loved the fact that in this, you know, most serious of moments, as we're chasing down the lover of the dead suspect, we're having that kind of side banter because. That is how I imagine real well, that's how I know real cops ch speak, you know. And
Tim: That is how it is. Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: the the
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: dual conversation between chasing down Bodie, finding him in this ridiculous situation in the container. Talking about your gang past with the Avon Park Playboys, which I just loved. I thought that was amazing. I I thought Bruno continued his wonderful trend of giving us some of the most incredible names. I mean, we had Bodie Andros.
Tim: Well, Miles Thorsen,
Owain: Miles Miles Thorsen, I wanted to speak about entirely separately because it's a whole device, as we've discussed with with with Ken. Yeah. Well, I'll be honest with you. I thought the I I thought the
Tim: Well the the device was awesome. but the name, come on. It's Bruno at his unique name finest. That's up there with Undine Kopecchi.
Owain: the the more challenging one for me was Ansel who had cancer. Because it for some reason that there was this weird rhyming thing. It was just like when Ansel had cancer. And and I was like, why would you of all the names you could pick, why would you do that? Like So many. I but I wonder
Tim: But you know what? There were so many of those, man. I mean we're gonna be talking Yeah. The rhyming? Cho Rigsby scene was my exhibit A. That was my favorite moment in the episode
Owain: yeah, I I I loved that too. I I I did love that. I
Tim: Yeah, that that was my vote for exhibit A. I felt like much like the rest of the episode, the bromance in full swing. you and I as actors coming into that scene. We know what we're doing, and we're gonna take that little isolated moment and and then just run with it for for the for the next few years and it's really fantastic.
Owain: W also I think I think you and I were just we we were we knew each other so much better. We'd spent a year working together. And I
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: think that ease just in our own lives was now pervading the characters. So it the beauty of a a show like that.
Tim: Yeah. But you know, I have to I have to mention this, there's certain people that you walk on to set and you just click. And you you were one of those people, right? It it there was it was easy. That's the best way to put it.
Owain: Likewise. Yeah. Likewise.
Tim: and and for for the for the people out there that aren't performers necessarily. You know, you you come into a scene, you're working with your scene partner. you throw your lines out there, and it's really akin to throwing a ball. And when you say your line, you throw the ball, I would throw the ball to Owen.
Owain: And I just bat it away. Not interested. Not interested.
Tim: Yeah, yeah, and ruin the scene. So you know, he would catch it and, you know, mess around with it and change it a little bit and do something cool with it and then throw it back to me. And that really c and and the idea in a scene is to kind of keep that ball in the air, right? And not bat it away. and so you know, that easy banter, that easy throwing the ball back and forth and and make and and it came alive. The scene came alive. So you know, you're you're you're you're the man, so
Owain: Agreed. I I I couldn't agree more, mate. Likewise, back at you. And it it's what we used to call in drama school yes and as opposed to no but. It it's
Tim: Yes.
Owain: a dream to be in a a scene with someone who takes what you're offering and says yes and this, as opposed
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: to going, No, but me you know. And goodness knows we've all worked with some of those people too. So it it's I I think we were very lucky not to have.
Tim: That just stops the everything, you know? Yeah. yeah. Then you're kinda sitting there going then then you're kinda sitting there going, All right, well what do I w w what do I do now? You know, yeah.
Owain: I thought Bodie, as ridiculous as he was, especially in California. We we know people like that. There are people like that. the bit where he's talking about her just saying, Yeah, she's just so into that kid, and when she was sick, and like and all the family stuff, and like. And it's a wonderful moment with you when you're
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: in the interrogation. I wonder if did you notice the presence of technology suddenly had been amped up? Like you made a big scene of having the camcorder in the interrogation room. We'd never done that before. And y
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: and there was two interrogations in this scene where camcorders were suddenly pre- present. Was there a big camcorder moment in 2009 or something?
Tim: Well no, no, no. I think that I think that was just a product of them trying to potentially use the camcorder screen as an insert. Just a fun
Owain: I think so too.
Tim: sort of interrogation insert. But you know, we did we didn't need it. We didn't need it. In fact, most of the interrogations and that kind of thing played in the other room, right? Observation. That's how we got our sort of fly on the wall moment is through the observation room. Rather than coming in close on the on the actual camcorder screen. so we didn't need it, yeah.
Owain: Yeah. But that's what I always appreciated about Chris Long. Chris Long, I think, was always looking for fun, inventive visual moments. And, you
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: know, kudos to him because I did notice that. I did notice an attempt to, you know, we haven't even talked about the I believe the opening credits for season two were new, right? We
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: dispensed with the whole mentalist a, you know, the definition. And now we're
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: into that kind of what I call the the more retro seventies, the saint, or you know.
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, right, right.
Owain: Like it it it felt very kind of like that I'm I can't remember how long that triptych sort of purpley, bluey, yellowy mentalist graphic lasted, but that was for a good good chunk of the whole show, right? That we used that that opening. So
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Owain: y there is definitely I I think probably from the creative team an attempt to want to keep all the things that are working. But at the same time, like you say, innovate, which is what we're trying to do with TV Police. What's working, great. Now, how do we just tweak it enough to keep the people who are coming back for that same thing? Don't want to make
Tim: Trees.
Owain: it too exactly. Add some fake trees, you know? I already I know that the people who the people who
Tim: Yeah. Spare no expense. Yeah.
Owain: love T V police are gonna be like, wait a second, those are new. I'm gonna watch just for that now. I mean
Tim: Wait, hang on, that's didn't see that last season.
Owain: I didn't see that last season. if nothing else, I want to know what this is about.
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: So, you know, we've we're we're we're gonna at least retain, I would say, 30, 40% of our audience just out of just out of plant curiosity. So, you know, that's maybe more. Maybe more. It i
Tim: Forty percent, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think you're being conservative. I think upwards of seventy, eighty on just on the plants alone. That's you know.
Owain: exactly. but the I I thought there were some wonderful moments for Van Pelt too. I thought Van Pelt.
Tim: Yes.
Owain: being given a little bit of agency, being able to be out in the field, you know, quite often
Tim: And I and I love that moment that Amanda played when she got off the phone with yeah, it was so so great. I was just like I s
Owain: Yes Yeah Yeah, it was so real. I loved that too.
Tim: I was smiling ear to ear, going, You go get go get you know, like
Owain: I was too. I was too. Because we don't get a lot of those moments or a lot of the listen, I mean, it's in many respects, and this is not to detract from any any lead performance, it it it's it can become a showcase and it's easy to be the show boat, but when you have little moments to be able to show, you know, and that for me was a like I I I was just so fondly watching that, thinking, you know, and it was it was sort of queuing up everything that I knew was coming. Like you felt like Van Pelt was now getting her feet under the table as the new agent. She was no longer the rookie, she was being trusted. Jane was still taking it away from her. Good instinct, probably wrong, but good instinct. You know, it's like you don't have to be that mean, you know. And
Tim: Right.
Owain: but there was I thought what was interesting also, and this is why I liked the Bosco device. With and God bless Manelli, you know, we've talked about how wonderful Greg is, Greg Itzin I think there is, and I wish that we'd seen a bit more of this throughout the seasons. Lisbon's really caught in a genuine conflict moment between the institution and Jane. And we don't see, I think, in later seasons enough of that. And you know, she tries to reframe it with By talking to him and saying, you know, maybe it's a good thing. Maybe we can't get the distance. Maybe you, you know, you are not the fresh set of eyes that this Red John case needs. And of course, you know, Jane being a dog with a bone doesn't listen. But
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: I I thought I would have loved to have seen a little bit more of that energy from Lisbon. Because I think that
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: that conflict to me, I because there was a moment when he's like, Well, I'm done then. I'm I'm I'm done with the Red John of it all, where I was like, This is ridiculous that we're now just keeping him on and allowing him to. It made sense with him as a consultant for a murder that he had maybe insight into. The fact that he was then saying, I'm done and I'm now just gonna tag along. For me, that that exposed a little bit of the absurdity of it. Do you know what mean? It it was a bit strange because
Tim: Bit of a reach. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Owain: it had me for the first time questioning: why on earth are we just basically bringing along. a street performer to solve these things. Cause I thought I think it also just undermines the agency.
Tim: Well, that's Bosco though. I think Bosco Bosco speaks for that ridiculous side of it, right? And addresses it. You're a you're a you're a you're a party performer, you're a clown, yeah. You're you're a victim. You're not a detective.
Owain: Right. Right. A clam. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Tim: He so because and this is another brilliant Bruno move, he Brosco says it. Bosco says it. So he brings it out into the open. We're not trying to hide anything. We know he knows that Jane shouldn't be here. So that gives us license to have Jane here and and makes it okay. It's sort of a sleight of hand that happens,
Owain: But let's talk about Bosco because I think he is a wonderful way to I think towards the end of season one, we saw Jane getting so much of his own way, and I think a show can become At risk of becoming not boring, but samey, if you don't have viable and worthy adversaries. And I think
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: that Terry was so wonderfully cast in this role because he's disarmingly charming and funny. And what I loved about the way he came in to play Bosca was he's not on the high horse. In fact, he plays it a little bit on the back foot, like the way he and he
Tim: Well he play to me to me he alwa
Owain: He almost Jane's Jane, which I love.
Tim: Yeah, he well to me he was sort of the traditional old school like what while Jane has that showmanship and the polish and the presentation, he might wear shabby clothes But he's still that showman. Bosco to me, the way Terry came in with it was that sort of disarming Old school gumshoe, you know, kind of a schlub, kind of very non-threatening. But if you push him, and that's why when when Lisbon says, you're gonna go have a meeting with Bosco, good luck. he he will tear you a new one. And and he does. So
Owain: Well, I th I think and I think I think Jane really underestimates him. And what I mean is
Tim: Yes, yes.
Owain: is that, you know, underneath that sort of gumshoe exterior was a man who was very psychologically attuned. You know, he starts off with the whole,
Tim: Yeah, adapt, yes.
Owain: shouldn't be doing this, you know, basically committing adultery by having this hot dog, you know, we which is great. And even
Tim: Yeah right. Love that. Love that. Yeah.
Owain: the even the little off center things that I noticed as an actor lovely tricks like Terry turns around, tosses a bottle of water. That catches Patrick Jane. Like, those are the kind of things that Jane usually does to other people. there's this sort
Tim: Yeah. Off guard. Yeah, yeah. It's great. Lovely. Yeah.
Owain: of feeling of each other out. Jane puts the hand on the shoulder, it's mirrored, you know, Bosco
Tim: Mm-hmm.
Owain: does it, then Jane does it. And then the sort of hubris of the showman comes out where he's like, I know who you are, but I think it's gonna take you a little while to figure out who I am. And then he just completely dismantles him and says, These are all the things. And what I loved about that was that it really did show. I think the shallowness of Jane's suitability to be on this journey. You know, yes, he has good instincts. Yes, he closes cases. But the truth of the matter is that he's driven by this really unhealthy and very personal connection to the case. And I think when you put that up against the logic of a decent cop, yeah.
Tim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Minnelli says as much. Yeah, that's why he got yanked off the case. Manel Manelli says as much, yeah.
Owain: And and I think that for me i the introduction of Terry was a very worthy one. Not just you needed an actor of that status to be able to come in there and he filled those shoes, but also the way in which he did it I thought was very clever. It was very sort of
Tim: it's understated and then it just he hits you over the head with it. It's great. It's really
Owain: Yeah. Let's talk quickly about the Miles Thorsen device because this was something that Ken had mentioned last season. Do you remember? Yeah, when he was like,
Tim: I do remember. Yeah. This is what it is. Yeah.
Owain: This is a Miles Thorsen. So in the Oceans 11 style, we've got ourselves a Leon Spinks or a Miles Thorsen
Tim: Yeah. I liked it. I liked it. Yeah.
Owain: And I the Miles Thorsen device is a good one because it
Tim: I didn't realize what it was when Ken mentioned it. And then when
Owain: I didn't either. And I think the Miles Thorsen thing does work. It is one it is a play. Plant the seed
Tim: Yeah, plant that seed everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Owain: it's an amazing psychological piece. I was watching a one of those real life true crime things, and the the amount of times killers orbit the crime scene is really unnerving. Do you know? And
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: I guess it's just human nature to sort of want to try and know. So the device of what he calls in that lovely scene that you and Jane have together fishing, you know, like it is. It he's fishing. one of my favorite moments of this episode, my exhibit A's, aside from the lovely dynamic that we had, was the the interrogation that you have with Bodie and then you're just fresh out of ideas and you end it with, do you know who Miles Thorsen is? Cause I just love was that improvised or was that written?
Tim: Just what's that?
Owain: Did you improvise that line? The the it was because
Tim: No, no, no. That that line was there. That line was there.
Owain: it f it felt like something you'd improvised. You did it so well and it was so
Tim: No, that that line was there. but to me it was funny because, you know, the the straight and narrow Cho is just gonna take a flyer now, right? Like this like this guy,
Owain: I know and I love that. And and I thought what was interesting
Tim: this guy is a moron. do you know Miles Thorsen Like, let me just try that.
Owain: I well the the way you threw it away was just great. I and I did think what what was interesting was you know, Cho, who's been so by the book, you took a few flyers on this one. Like, you know, when we're
Tim: Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: at the house. no, I th I think I heard someone in there. And it of all people, it took Rigsby to go, we're trespassing,
Tim: Well i that's what well
Owain: we're
Tim: that's what I that's what I thought was interesting because in the van you were saying, Hey boss, we need we need Jane, right? but then when push comes to shi
Owain: Yeah. was a sort of an about face.
Tim: when push comes to shove going into the house, Rigsby got cold feet, and the usually straight arrow cho goes, Yeah, I think I heard something in there. Let's go, you know, and and I'm on I'm on board with your shenanigans, you know. So
Owain: Well, what was nice was maybe Yeah, yeah. What was nice was that maybe this is a call back to the Avon Park Playboy in him. Do you know what I mean? And that's
Tim: Yeah, right. Right.
Owain: the the the do the duality that can live in show in all of these characters, but in that, that
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: that's something I always wanted to dig more into. working logically through the rest of the episode. I thought it was a hard job for the for the bereaved family. I think that those roles are always very difficult, aren't they? I thought the daughter was very real. what was her name? Kessie or Kelsey or something? yeah,
Tim: Cassie, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Owain: she was great. It it's very hard to make a lot of those those roles. You know what I mean? It's like you're the terminally ill kid who's recovered, you're the bereaving dad who's lost, like, and there's so much weight in those things, and you've got maybe three lines to show it, you know, and
Tim: Right.
Owain: I think that that is tremendously challenging. I also had a little bit of a hard time, and this is where sometimes I think the show can try and get a little bit. Too clever for its own good. Sometimes, for me at least, maybe I'm just a little bit slow on the pickup, there's almost one too many red herrings. So that by
Tim: Mm.
Owain: the time we got to it being the head of the the printing company, being the woman who was actually
Tim: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Owain: responsible, I I I'd done such mental gymnastics to get there. Do you know what I mean? Maybe it's the lover, it's not the lover, okay. Well then it's someone else, and then maybe it's the the accounting guy because the accounting guy seemed to have some motive and then it's not him. And then suddenly it was almost like that was a whole other layer. And because the Miles Thorsen trap had become almost more important than the actual suspect that it trapped, you almost forgot. Was that just me or did you feel like that too?
Tim: You forgot yeah, right. Forgot about. No, no, I picked up on I picked up on that too, and I'm glad you brought that up. Can you explain to me what the deal was with the the the ledger switcheroo? What what how did that happen? my question is, where did Jane discover that book? the history of the fax machine Where where did he where did he
Owain: It was in it was in her it was in her articles that were recovered. Do you remember Lisbon earlier in the episode says it says these are
Tim: It was in her articles that were recovered. Yes, yes, yes. So that's it. So that's it.
Owain: his these are her personal articles? And he actually says when he's sitting down with you, why would she be reading the history of the fax machine? I think the the tell is this book is
Tim: Yes. I forgot about that.
Owain: exactly what you said. This book is so not a book that anyone would read, go to my local library now and see if they have a history of the facts machine just to see if anyone has put anything
Tim: Right.
Owain: really cool or like, you know, like maybe I don't know, maybe there's a million dollars in there.
Tim: But I look, even though even though it is obscure and a little bit stretches the imagination, I think that's a cool sort of device. Yeah.
Owain: It's a great idea. Here's here's the thing, right? And it's interesting that Chris Long actually addresses it in the little featurette that he does Talks about our show doesn't talk down to the audience. It doesn't belittle our audience. It treats them as super smart. I think sometimes it i I was in the show. It's still a bit beyond me. You know, like we
Tim: It's too smart. Right, right.
Owain: know, we talk about this all the time. Bruno's a smart guy. He's a very clever
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: guy. And, you know, I think that I I To even now as we talk about it, I'm still not entirely sure we have the conceit. But I think the basic conceit is that she wanted to have a record for her redemption that showed what was really going on and that the corruption was taking place at the boss level and not for her. And I think then
Tim: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Owain: the boss why the boss let her get away with that, I'm not entirely sure. Or that it
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: was the boss that was cooking the books, not her. She made her take the fall for it and then said, I will pay for your son to have the treatment. You need to disappear. Here's your million bucks. So season two, episode one, redemption. A great
Tim: Yes, sir.
Owain: way to kick off, a lot of the scenes and themes that we saw in season one, kicking us off for a new season and reintroducing us, to all of the things that made the show the big hit that it was in season one. I think queuing up an awful lot of Wonderful things for us to be digging into as the show goes on. A complicated, duality-filled episode on many fronts, some new protagonists, some new antagonists. I think a lot for us to sort of dig into as the show goes on. And just before we sign off on season two, episode one, I just wanted to do my own callback to something from season one The s the one thing that we did leave, from last season was the knitting. Now, you know, there was some there was some doubt that I would ever be able to pull this off, you know. I I I I got slightly motivated by the the fugazi that you tried to pull on me when, you know, when you were like, I did some knitting. And then of course you just spoke to your neighbour, Crystal, who just threw something together for you. So what I did was I actually I templated a crocheting video, and I and I went to work over the summer. So may I introduce you to the TV police scarf that I have like and and and by the way. I this was probably I mean I would say it's it's almost as big as me. Like it it's yeah. Yeah. So I'm pretty proud of this.
Tim: Hang on, hang on, hang on, real quick. just let me know where where did you buy that?
Owain: I didn't buy this, I made this. I knitted it. I I literally with my own these hands are raw from from just
Tim: One one hundred percent you needed that.
Owain: One hundred percent. A hundred and ten percent. Cause I I thought to myself, you know what? The only way to clap back at Tim is to just get Yeah.
Tim: On let me let me see some evidence. I'm gonna need some evidence that Crystal
Owain: What
Tim: didn't just send that to you.
Owain: Can't believe how dare you? How dare
Tim: Well
Owain: you like look at this? This is this is man's work here. I mean, like, look at that. It's hours and hours of
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That no, it's it's impressive. It is impressive. Now my
Owain: Thank you. Thank you.
Tim: guess is that Crystal was at work for the past four or five months. In fact
Owain: Impossible.
Tim: I think I remember her saying she was doing something like that and then sent it to you. Is that not what happened?
Owain: No, that would well that would that would just feel like a bum repeat gag, you know, like why would I do that? Like you already did that,
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. That's amazing.
Owain: The really I'd only be I'd only be cheating myself, Tim, if I was if I was wearing this, claiming that I'd thank you, thank you. That's all I that's all I needed. That's
Tim: Yeah. That that's phenomenal. That's phenomenal. Yeah.
Owain: that and any resemblance that it bears to either the typeset or crochet pattern of the TV police that you had done by Crystal is purely coincidental. yeah. On that note, I think I think that that firmly wraps things up in a nice knitted bundle, right?
Tim: Yeah, so to so to speak. Join us next week when Owen is gonna still have the scarf on from today for
Owain: Yeah, I I I will still be wearing the scarf. And I'll also show you my I'll show you my blanket that that I also made.
Tim: Yeah.
Owain: So this is it's the tip of the iceberg.
Tim: Yeah, I know, I know, I know.
Owain: been a joy to reconnect and to do this again. And I can't wait to do it next week and and for the next twenty-three weeks.
Tim: Yeah. Yeah. Season season two, episode two, The Scarlet Letter. Yeah. Yeah.
Owain: Let's get at it. Until then, we have been the TV police.
Tim: Please
