IDF Opens Criminal Investigation Into Murder Of Hind Rajab

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Welcome to Navarra Live, coming up tonight. The IDF has
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opened a criminal investigation into the murder of five-year-old Hind Rajab,
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her family, and 15 other Palestinians in Gaza in 2025.
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Ed Miliband is talking tough on West Bank settlements, and
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an ITV investigation has uncovered a UAE mercenary operating in
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the UK. I'm Helena Akeeno, Justice MTG, and tonight I'm
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delighted to be joined by Barry Malone. How are you
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doing today, Barry?
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Hi, how are you?
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Hello from County Lowtham, Ireland, where I'm having a bit
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of a relaxing couple of weeks.
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For more than two and a half years, Israel has
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denied that its troops were anywhere near the Tel al-Hawa
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neighborhood of Gaza City when perhaps the most well-known and
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heartbreaking killing of the genocide took place. The horrific murder
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of five-year-old Hind Rajab and six of her relatives. Now
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Israel has admitted what the entire world already knew. It
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did in fact fire on a car Hind was traveling
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in with her family. The Israeli military also says in
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a statement that it had opened a criminal investigation. It's
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worth pausing to remind ourselves just how awful this atrocity was.
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In January 2024, Hind and members of her family packed
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into her uncle's Kia car after the Israeli army ordered
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Palestinians out of their neighborhood. As the car navigated the streets,
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it was hit by a barrage of 300 bullets. Hind
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was then trapped in the car, surrounded by the dead
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bodies of her family members, and was able to speak
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to Palestine Red Crescent Society workers on a mobile phone
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as they desperately tried to get help to her. Here's
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a reminder of some of that conversation from Middle East Eye. Warning,
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it's very distressing.
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How are you doing? Are you dead?
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Yes.
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And they sent you to the car?
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Yes.
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Where are you hiding now?
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Where are you hiding now?
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In the car.
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You're in the car, right?
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Not outside the car.
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Yes. Okay. Stay in the car, Omri.
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I'm going to open the.
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Line with you.
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I'm going to talk to you.
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I don't want.
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To close the phone, okay?
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Yes.
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The tank is next to me. Where is the tank?
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Next to.
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Me.
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The tank is next to you?
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Yes.
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Is it moving or is it standing?
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Is someone.
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Coming down from it?
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It's moving.
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It's moving?
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Is she moving next to the car or is she
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coming from.
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Behind the car or from in front of the car?
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From in front of the car. Is she coming to
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you from in front of the car?
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Yes.
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Is she.
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Very close? Very, very close.
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And is she walking?
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Yes.
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Okay, we don't want to be scared.
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She's with me.
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I'm with you, Amri. I'm with you. I'm with you.
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Until someone comes to pick you up. I don't want
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to leave you alone.
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When someone comes to pick you up, I don't want
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to leave you alone.
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What? When someone comes to pick you up.
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I don't want to leave you alone. No, I want
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to be with you.
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Until someone comes to pick you up.
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I don't want to leave you alone.
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Even if you come, God forbid, why?
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Don't talk to me.
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Leave the line open.
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I don't want to talk to you. I'm with you.
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Mom, don't bother me. I don't want to talk to you.
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What's up, Amri?
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I don't want to talk to you.
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I don't want to talk to you.
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I'm with you. I don't want to talk to you.
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I don't want to talk to you.
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I don't want to talk to you.
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What?
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I don't want to talk to you.
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I don't want to talk to you.
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I don't want to talk to.
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You. I don't want to talk to you.
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Hind later died of her injuries after a Red Cross
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ambulance on its way to rescue her was also bombed
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by Israel. Now, as we know, Israel's investigations into itself
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tend to go nowhere. And Hind's grandmother, Hind Hamada Rajab,
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told Al Jazeera this.
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The Indians were targeted by Israeli soldiers for their deliberate
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killing and targeting. Their killing was deliberate against the ears
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of the whole world. India is an innocent child. India
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was evacuated and targeted by a car. Everyone saw how
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the Indian student was saved. We were asked through the
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Red Cross to save her. As a family of Indians,
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we do not support the execution of the State of Israel.
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We hope that the execution.
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Barry, the murder of Hind Rajab is probably the most
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well-known of the Israel genocide in Gaza. Why do you
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think Israel is admitting this now? And is there any
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chance there'll be any justice in this case?
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I feel like I'll never, no matter how many times
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I listen to it, be able to cope with it.
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And I know that millions of people around the world
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who heard it also feel that way.
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And I just want to say that.
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Hindra Jab is the child who many of us know
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the intimate details of her murder. We've seen photographs of
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her and we've heard her voice pleading for help, which
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breaks everybody's hearts. But, you know, she's representative, I think,
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of 20,000 children who have been killed by Israel during
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the genocide.
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I mean, think about that for a second.
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Look at that girl. Look at that precious girl. Listen
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to that precious girl. And then try to even imagine
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that 20,000 children were also killed. I agree with her grandmother.
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I think her grandmother is absolutely spot on.
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Israel....
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Investigating itself is a joke.
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It's always been a joke.
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And we know that because we've seen time and time
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and time again over the years that when Israel investigates itself,
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guess what?
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It exonerates itself.
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I think there's an interesting clue today into how seriously
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it intends to take this investigation, which is we've seen
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that they agreed today to also investigate the Rafa paramedic massacre,
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which I'm sure people will remember because it was horrific
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in its kind of blatant deliberation and blatant premeditation. That
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was when 15 medical workers and there was UN there,
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there was Red Crescent there.
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There were some other organizations represented.
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They attacked the clearly marked ambulances that they were traveling in.
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they killed the entire team of 15 paramedics and some
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of those people were shot dead were shot in the
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head deliberately i remember there was there was one man
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because i know mobile phone footage was part of the
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way that um it was proven that this was a
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deliberate massacre and i remember that there was one of
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the paramedics was on his phone and he was uh praying,
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he was doing the Shahada and he was sending a
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message to his mother. And I remember he was sort
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of saying, forgive me, mother, forgive me for being a paramedic, essentially.
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And he was saying, I only chose this path to
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help others and asking his mother for forgiveness that he
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had become a paramedic.
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And that was how his life had ended.
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And then he was later found in the mass grave
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with a bullet in his head. That's what happened. It
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was a deliberate massacre. Now, they said that they're going
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to investigate that one too. But interestingly, they've rejected calls
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to investigate some other incidents, including.
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I think, by the way, they.
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Call these incidents operationally complex or, you know, something like that.
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There's some really, like... like cleansing word for it. Some really, um,
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sort of.
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Jargony word that they use for these massacres that they
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agreed to investigate. But the, the attack on the world
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central kitchen aid workers, which I think a lot of
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people will remember, I think there were seven aid workers
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who were killed. Again, they were hitting a strike in
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clearly marked vehicles, you know, marked as aid vehicles marked
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with world central kitchen logos. And on top of that,
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the World Central Kitchen was constantly sharing its coordinates with
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the IDF, constantly in contact.
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With the IDF to let the IDF.
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Know where it was and where it intended to go. Now,
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they've said that they're not going to investigate that, and
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they've blamed... effectively that coordination. They've said this was a
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problem with the coordination with the World Central Kitchen. As
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if to say, well, yeah, we messed up because they
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messed up the coordination. They weren't coordinating with us. And
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then the World Central Kitchen has come out today and said,
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that's utter nonsense. We gave them coordinates all along. We
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were in contact with them all through the day. Now,
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if you look at the specifics of the statement in
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which they say that they're going to investigate the Hindra
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Jaab killing and the killing of her six.
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Family members, they say that the issue was, again, the coordination.
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So they're pinpointing the coordination with the Palestinian Red Crescent, who,
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as you said in the intro, the ambulance went to
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rescue Hind Rajab and was bombed on the way. They've
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admitted that, yes, their soldiers were responsible for the more
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than 300 bullets that hit that car. But they've also
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said that this typical thing that the Israeli army says
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that the soldiers thought that the car posed.
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A threat, right? They always come up with this one.
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So it sounds to me like what they're actually going
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to investigate, especially because Hind Rajab died of her injuries
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after the attack on the car. I think what they
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intend to investigate is probably the coordination with the ambulance.
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And the fact that the ambulance was bombed.
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But you know, in a way also it's academic because they.
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Probably won't find any wrongdoing.
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And just before you come back, on the why, I
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think that for Israel, there's a feeling that this is
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moving into a different phase. Not quite coming to an end,
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but moving into a slightly different phase. And I do
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think they may be, although, you know, I think they've
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proven that they are in a way completely immune to
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international law. But I do think they may be trying
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to see off potential ICC prosecutions because there's a concept called.
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Complementarity.
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Which means that because the ICC is a court of
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last resort, the concept of complementarity means that if a
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government is seen to have investigated a potential war crime
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in good faith itself, then the ICC will not get involved.
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So I think that might.
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Be the play here, because I'll tell you this, and
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you know this, and our viewers know this, Israel doesn't
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care at all about killing Palestinian children.
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Yeah, I really don't believe when they claim that it
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was a problem of the coordinates of the emergency vehicles
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or the charitable vehicles in these cases. We know full
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well that Israel can do pinpoint strikes on individual apartments
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in Beirut. We know what happens when Israel cares about
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what they're targeting to target the right place. I don't buy,
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given all the technology that Israel prides themselves on, they
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can't notice World Central Kitchen vehicles when they see them.
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On kind of a more broader question here, You said
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that we're kind of moving into a different phase. I
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think that's right. Of course, there's still the kind of
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the sham of the ceasefire when we're still seeing airstrikes happening, people,
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civilians being killed in Gaza. There was a couple that
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have happened in the last few days, in the last
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few weeks as well. And that's on top of National
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Security Minister, Itamar Ben-Gavir, essentially coming out and saying that
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Israel should be just killing Palestinians essentially without rhyme or reason,
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just as a show of force. So that alongside a
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potential investigation to something that, again, has a lot of
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international attention, there seems to be a discordancy there.
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Yeah, I mean, as usual, Ben-Gavir was dismissed by several
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people Israeli supporters or Israel supporters as an extremist crank,
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despite the fact that he's a government minister. But yeah,
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I think that, I mean, look, the ceasefire.
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Is a nonsense.
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It's a quote unquote ceasefire. There has never been a ceasefire.
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They've been violating that ceasefire since day one, and they
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continue to violate that ceasefire. And They are doing so
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with complete impunity.
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And it's crazy to me.
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Because actually I wrote about this recently for Middle East Eye.
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So I have the quote, one of the quotes from
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the ceasefire agreement in my head, which is that it
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said that all military operations, including aerial bombardments or including
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aerial and artillery bombardments and targeting operations will be suspended.
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That's what it said in the deal. Israel has continued
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to attack Gaza on an almost daily basis, claiming that
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it's targeting Hamas operatives. Who did Israel sign the peace
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deal with? It signed it with Hamas. I mean, this
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is completely absurd. And yet the Western media and Western
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governments are acting like it's fine for them to target Hamas,
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even though they've signed the ceasefire with Hamas. And if
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you look at the amount of people who've been killed
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in October, I think the latest figure is It's about 1,275.
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The vast majority of those people, according to estimates, are civilians,
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a lot of them women, and again, a lot of
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them children. I mean, there was an incident in Gaza,
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I think two weeks ago, where they attacked a family home.
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The father, I remember, was called Firas al-Masri. His wife
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was called Sal Sabeel. And they had four children, three
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daughters and a son. There was a direct targeted strike
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on their home, which killed all of them. That's four children,
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a mother and a father.
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Israel claimed, as.
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Usual, without providing evidence, that it was targeting a Hamas operative. So,
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you know, we can conclude that Israel is saying that
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Firas al-Masri was in Hamas. If for sort of illustrative purposes,
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let's assume Firas al-Masri was in Hamas. Again, the ceasefire
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was signed with Hamas. And I think a key thing
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here is that shows that Israel was willing to kill
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four children and their mother in order to target this man,
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Firas al-Masri. Again, coming back to my point that Israel
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does not care a jot about killing Palestinian children. And
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that's how we know that the investigation into Hind Rajab's
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death is not an investigation because of morality, not an
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investigation because they want the Israeli army to be held
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to higher standards. It's as you say, it's an investigation
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because this is, you know, the most famous atrocity of
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the genocide.
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And I think because they're, they're trying to ensure.
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That they've, that they've done this, this, this investigation because
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of the, the, uh, complementarity, um, um, a concept, but, um,
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you know, on, on, on where this is going.
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They're continuing to kill people every day.
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They're continuing to violate the, the, uh, uh, nonsense ceasefire
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that doesn't, um, And also they've recently rejected phase two
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of the ceasefire, which was put forward by Trump a
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couple of weeks ago. And then Netanyahu came out and
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said that they were going to reject it until Hamas disarms. Now,
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Hamas has already agreed to disarm. But according to phase
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two of the ceasefire, Hamas was supposed to disarm.
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At the same time.
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That Israel was going to withdraw from Gaza, from the
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70% of Gaza that it now occupies. But the Israelis
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seem to have attached a new condition, which is that
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Hamas has to disarm before they will withdraw so the
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israelis are moving the goalposts here and then on top
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of all that we had jared kushner visit israel uh
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i guess it was earlier this week or last week
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and say we will not start rebuilding gaza until hamas
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uh disarms and then there was this extraordinary thing where
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i think jared kushner had a meeting with um hamas
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officials um I imagine it was, I don't know how
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that happened, sorry, but he had a meeting with Hamas
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officials and he came out of it, he said, look,
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they said all the right things, but it's just so
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hard to trust the gang of terrorists who carried out
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the October 7th attack.
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You know what? That is pure and utter nonsense.
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How is it harder to trust Hamas than it is
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to trust the Israeli government?
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How is it harder.
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to trust Hamas, which has killed, I think, four soldiers
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since October, than the Israeli government, which has killed 1,275 people,
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mostly civilians, including a large number of children. How is
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it harder to trust Hamas than an Israeli government that
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has been found.
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To lie and lie and lie and lie again?
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Hamas is actually a much more trustworthy actor than Israel.
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And so all of this, all of this rhetoric, the
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rejection of phase two, the moving of the goalposts that
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Hamas disarmed before the withdrawal happens, it shows me that
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they're not serious about the ceasefire. And it shows me
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that they're intending to continue the genocide, to continue the
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ethnic cleansing, and to continue to push Palestinians further and
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further and further into a small strip of coastline in Gaza.
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Israel's E1 settlement plan has been decades in the making,
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a sprawling land area designated to build over 3,000 illegal
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homes between the long-standing legal settlement of Maale Adumim and
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occupied East Jerusalem. The settlement, if completed, would not only
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hem in the Palestinian population of East Jerusalem, giving even
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more freedom for further actions against the Palestinian population there,
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such as the evictions of families in Sheikh Jarrah, it
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would also prevent the formation of a contiguous Palestinian state,
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both in extricating the capital of Al-Quds from the rest
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of the West Bank and dividing the south of the
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West Bank from the north. Now these plans have been
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in limbo for the last 30 years, with every government
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pledging to see them through to completion, and suggesting preparations
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for initiating construction. But up until now, they've fallen short
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of putting the plans in motion under international pressure from
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the United States and the EU and other countries. But
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since Israel started their genocide in Gaza, Western threats to
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respond to Zionist expansion both in the West Bank and
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in Gaza have proven empty, meaning Netanyahu knows he can
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push as far as he wants. emboldened by the total
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impunity afforded to Israel by the West, the Israeli government
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opened up the tender process for the first 1,000 homes
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to be built in E1, a rubicon that no previous
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Prime Minister of Israel had previously crossed. It's also a
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potential Hail Mary for Netanyahu's governing coalition, who are currently
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trailing in the opinion polls ahead of elections in November.
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Up until now, the UK Foreign Office had taken all
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their cues from Washington, but with a change in personnel
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has come a change in tone towards Israel. and UK
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Foreign Secretary Ed Miliband has at last taken at least
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some initiative ahead of other states in response. Ed Miliband
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made this statement on the settlement plans. This Israeli government's
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publication of a tender for the E1 settlement project is
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an unacceptable and destructive act. E1 would cut across the
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heart of Palestine and risk separating the West Bank from
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East Jerusalem, which would endanger the viability of a two-state solution.
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The UK has been clear, privately and publicly, in our
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opposition to E1 and our support for a two-state solution
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as the only way to ensure long-term security and peace
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for both Palestinians and Israelis. All settlements damaged that prospect
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and are a flagrant breach of international law. Today, I
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made clear to the Israeli Foreign Minister Gideon Saar that
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the Israeli government must halt E1 plans immediately. retract the
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tender and stop all settlement expansion. Miliband then went on
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to detail the government's response should the settlement plan go ahead.
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Britain will not stand back and accept the destruction of
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the two-state solution. In the coming weeks, we will set
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out a comprehensive set of measures to respond to Israeli
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government policies, protect the viability of a Palestinian state, target
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sanctions at those who participate in legal settlement expansion, and
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support a just and lasting peace for Israelis and Palestinians. Now,
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what is interesting here is two things. First of all,
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they are opening the gates with potential actions that are
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going to be taken. They talk about strong actions that
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might potentially be taken. Now, whilst I'm not counting my chickens,
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that is at least further than has been before. When
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previously things like E1 were discussed, when David Lammy, for example,
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was Foreign Secretary, it was just, they should stop.
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Please stop. Strongly worded letter.
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This is actually something towards an actual threat to engage
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in real material actions which have been quite frankly long
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forthcoming given the fact that these expansion of settlements illegal
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settlements has been happening for decades and decades and decades
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e1 isn't a new thing it's connecting two existing settlements
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that are illegal already with each other and we should
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have been engaging in some levels of sanctions before now
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the problem comes in what do those sanctions look like
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and is an empty thread Plenty of empty threats have
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come towards the Israeli government previously. For example, you look
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at Joe Biden threatening to withhold support should they invade Rafah.
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They had invaded Rafah and then he still bypassed Congress
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to give them more support, for example, in the United States.
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So given we don't really have much of a track
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record on understanding Abedin's position, this would now be a
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time for him to showcase his mettle and actually go ahead.
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The issue, of course, comes with only sanctioning some people
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who support settlement. Well, The whole of Israel supports settlement.
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The government supports settlement, right? There have been much larger
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scale sanctions than what are being suggested here if it's
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actually going to material effect what's happening in Israel. We
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shouldn't be trading with the actual settlements themselves at all.
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But in terms of a broader sanctions package, we should
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be looking at the entire country and forcing the government's
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hand because they are all of people who support this project.
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And indeed, every prime minister up until now, from when
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they were proposed by Yitzhak Rabin in the 90s, they've
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all backed E1 to varying degrees. So the idea that
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only sanctioning certain pro-settlement politicians or the settlements themselves, that's
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not far enough in my opinion. Now, Israeli Foreign Minister
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Gideon Saar did not hold back in his response to Admiraband.
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I reject outright the statements of the UK Foreign Secretary
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and the patronising tone of his words. The Jewish people
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have a right to live throughout the land of Israel,
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just as the British have the right to live in
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London and throughout the United Kingdom. More than a century ago,
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the Balfour Declaration formally recognised the historic right of the
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Jewish people to re-establish their national home in the land
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of Israel, including in the area in question. The UK
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government's decision to damage the relationship between our countries is
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deeply unfortunate. But Israel will not be a passive victim
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of this policy. Israel will defend its rights, its interests
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and its people. Now, you don't actually have any rights
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to engage in illegal settlements. In fact, you don't have
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any right at all. In fact, you're engaging in illegality,
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you know, international crimes by engaging in the settlement plan.
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When it comes to the discussion of the right of
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people to live in Israel, even if you want to
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take the Balfour Declaration as read, obviously I don't as
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an anti-Zionist, right? But if you want to take the
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Balfour Declaration as read, it never said anything about the
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entirety of what the pro-Zionists would call Judea and Samaria.
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It just said a Jewish day. It also was explicit
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in not violating the civil rights of the people who
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already lived in Palestine at the time under the British Mandate.
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And on top of this, the idea that somehow that
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that means that you can just evict people from the lands,
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because there are still Bedouins who live in the current
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E1 area, is nonsensical. They're already trying to gain much further,
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much further incursions into Gaza to be able to gain
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more territory there. The idea that somehow we should accept
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even further incursions to the West Bank is nonsense to me. Barry,
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what did you make of the tit-for-tat there between Miliband
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and Nassar?
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I think it's interesting to hear Gideon Sarr calling somebody
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else patronizing. Wow, he's got some neck doing that. But no,
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I think you, you know, you're right. You nailed it
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when you said that this has been something of a
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taboo before, but it's something that everybody has wanted to
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do in Israel. And I think that it's so instructive
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when you say that You know, Netanyahu knows that there's
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an election coming up and that they're behind in the polls.
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And this is a sort of a Hail Mary to
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get support. That really sort of underlines the problematic extreme
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politics of the majority of Israeli society. That the majority
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of people in Israel would support... do support settlement expansion,
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but support settlement expansion even into the E1 area. It
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just says so much about where Israeli politics is right now.
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And I think that Netanyahu is trying to rush this
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through because this is his moment as well. This is
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his moment to achieve everything that he's ever wanted to
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achieve as a politician.
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We've seen that with Iran.
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We had president after president after president in the U.S.
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not you know, a bow to Netanyahu's kind of desire
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to go to war with Iran until Trump came along
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and he managed to push Trump into it.
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And look where Trump is now.
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It's the worst mistake he's probably made across his two terms.
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And he is now, I believe, at his lowest approval rating,
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certainly that he's had this term. And if you look
489
00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:02.069
at the answers to other polling questions that Americans were
490
00:26:02.210 --> 00:26:04.930
asked in that latest poll, it showed that Iran was
491
00:26:05.089 --> 00:26:09.230
actually the driver of his drop in popularity. So Netanyahu
492
00:26:09.269 --> 00:26:13.079
has pushed Trump into a disaster in Iran. I think
493
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:15.339
he knows that he has an open door to violate
494
00:26:15.400 --> 00:26:16.640
international law right now.
495
00:26:17.059 --> 00:26:19.720
And so it's like all the taboos are falling away.
496
00:26:19.740 --> 00:26:24.059
They can get away with anything because there's utter impunity
497
00:26:24.099 --> 00:26:30.000
to do whatever Israel wants. But, you know, the Miliband
498
00:26:30.019 --> 00:26:35.779
response is interesting to me. It's definitely a change in tone.
499
00:26:35.819 --> 00:26:38.809
I mean, it's a very... It's a very clear change
500
00:26:38.829 --> 00:26:41.390
in tone to what we had under the Starmer government
501
00:26:41.410 --> 00:26:46.529
or under Yvette Cooper or David Lammy. I want to
502
00:26:46.569 --> 00:26:50.369
say that I do not trust this government. I do
503
00:26:50.450 --> 00:26:54.079
not trust this Labour government. I do not trust this
504
00:26:54.160 --> 00:26:57.720
Labour cabinet. I think everything needs to be a wait
505
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.420
and see. So when you see these tough words, it's like,
506
00:27:00.460 --> 00:27:03.930
as you say, well, okay, but let's see something actually happen.
507
00:27:04.210 --> 00:27:08.009
Does this signal something that might happen? Does this signal
508
00:27:08.130 --> 00:27:14.200
an actual possible material change in UK policy towards Israel
509
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:16.839
in general? I do think it's interesting that he summoned
510
00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.660
a diplomat. I mean, that is a big move, usually.
511
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:23.750
I think that's usually seen as quite an aggressive step
512
00:27:23.970 --> 00:27:28.470
in diplomacy to summon a senior diplomat to talk about
513
00:27:28.490 --> 00:27:31.690
an issue. And, you know, they said that they have
514
00:27:31.710 --> 00:27:37.490
done that publicly, and I do think that is significant.
515
00:27:37.529 --> 00:27:39.630
I do want to say one thing on speaking out
516
00:27:40.309 --> 00:27:43.980
about the West Bank, though. I think it's easier for
517
00:27:44.019 --> 00:27:47.799
politicians to speak out, you know, politicians in countries like
518
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:51.019
Britain who are allies of Israel, who have spent the
519
00:27:51.059 --> 00:27:56.599
last almost three years backing Israelis' genocide materially and diplomatically,
520
00:27:57.039 --> 00:27:59.900
running cover for a genocide carried out by another country,
521
00:28:00.240 --> 00:28:02.519
I think it's easier for them to criticize things that
522
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:05.079
happen in the West Bank than it is things that
523
00:28:05.119 --> 00:28:07.700
happen in Gaza. Because in the West Bank, you can
524
00:28:07.819 --> 00:28:11.160
always blame the settlers, right? You can always say that
525
00:28:11.240 --> 00:28:15.079
settlers need to be sanctioned. We condemn settlement. And in
526
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:17.680
that way, you can sort of distance the Israeli government
527
00:28:17.720 --> 00:28:20.880
from what's happening. You know, you can paint the settlers
528
00:28:20.980 --> 00:28:24.210
as extremists or you can paint the settlers as rogue,
529
00:28:24.609 --> 00:28:26.329
you know, and you can ignore the fact that the
530
00:28:26.369 --> 00:28:30.369
Israeli government has sort of given tacit approval.
531
00:28:29.990 --> 00:28:31.740
To settlers over the years.
532
00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:37.420
To undertake, as you say, their illegal acts, their illegal
533
00:28:37.740 --> 00:28:42.059
settlements of Palestinian land. So I do think it's an
534
00:28:42.240 --> 00:28:45.690
easier place for a government to go And it's a
535
00:28:45.849 --> 00:28:48.250
much harder place for them to go to criticize what's
536
00:28:48.269 --> 00:28:49.150
happening in Gaza.
537
00:28:49.190 --> 00:28:50.410
Because if you criticize what's.
538
00:28:50.289 --> 00:28:54.839
Happening in Gaza, you're directly criticizing the Israeli military. And
539
00:28:54.859 --> 00:28:58.000
you offer them no wriggle room, unlike the wriggle room
540
00:28:58.039 --> 00:29:02.059
that they get when the conversation is focused on the
541
00:29:02.119 --> 00:29:04.579
West Bank. So I do think that's interesting when you
542
00:29:04.619 --> 00:29:06.849
look at sort of the fact that Labour are also
543
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:08.829
engaged in some damage control, right, with.
544
00:29:10.009 --> 00:29:13.289
with Burnham's statement that he was sorry for Gaza.
545
00:29:13.349 --> 00:29:15.349
Although, again, if you look into what he was actually
546
00:29:15.390 --> 00:29:17.630
sorry for, he seemed to be sorry for two things.
547
00:29:17.690 --> 00:29:20.009
He seemed to be sorry that Stammer, when he was
548
00:29:20.049 --> 00:29:24.500
leader of the opposition, essentially supported a war crime, said
549
00:29:24.519 --> 00:29:28.019
it was OK to keep water and electricity out of Gaza.
550
00:29:28.279 --> 00:29:30.960
And he seemed to say that the UK should have
551
00:29:30.980 --> 00:29:32.599
called for a ceasefire sooner.
552
00:29:32.900 --> 00:29:34.329
That's it, by the way. That's it.
553
00:29:34.619 --> 00:29:36.789
I know that the headlines say that he said sorry
554
00:29:36.829 --> 00:29:40.220
for Gaza and news bulletins keep saying, well, Andy. Burnham
555
00:29:40.259 --> 00:29:42.740
said sorry for Gaza he didn't say sorry for Gaza
556
00:29:42.779 --> 00:29:45.859
he said sorry for two specific things that happened early
557
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.019
on so you know when you look at that and
558
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:50.279
then you look at Miliband speaking tough on the West
559
00:29:50.319 --> 00:29:52.079
Bank Is it real?
560
00:29:52.579 --> 00:29:53.519
Is it posturing?
561
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:56.599
Is it a way to be quote unquote tough on
562
00:29:56.680 --> 00:29:59.220
Israel without actually touching Gaza? But I do want to
563
00:29:59.269 --> 00:30:02.170
say also that it is the summertime and Burnham has
564
00:30:02.230 --> 00:30:05.559
only been in he's not even prime minister for a month.
565
00:30:05.579 --> 00:30:07.000
It feels like a lot longer. I think it's about
566
00:30:07.019 --> 00:30:09.460
exactly a month, actually. So Burnham has been in for
567
00:30:09.500 --> 00:30:12.059
a month. It's the summer. Things are kind of quiet.
568
00:30:12.400 --> 00:30:15.700
I would like to see what happens around conference season
569
00:30:16.160 --> 00:30:20.460
with where Miliband goes and where Labour goes with Israeli policy.
570
00:30:20.480 --> 00:30:24.190
So an interesting indication that there might be a change
571
00:30:24.470 --> 00:30:27.309
in stance from the British government, but wait and see
572
00:30:27.750 --> 00:30:28.349
is my take.
573
00:30:28.849 --> 00:30:31.549
My favourite part of Gideon Zah's statement there was trying
574
00:30:31.589 --> 00:30:35.849
to compare... like British citizens living within the territory of
575
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:40.029
the nation state of Great Britain with people living in Israel,
576
00:30:40.049 --> 00:30:43.950
like the entity in Palestine. And I'm like, okay, well,
577
00:30:43.970 --> 00:30:45.890
if you believe that people have the right to live
578
00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:47.130
in Israel, where's your borders?
579
00:30:47.589 --> 00:30:48.509
Where's your borders, Gideon?
580
00:30:48.670 --> 00:30:50.529
Because they won't tell you because they can't call it
581
00:30:50.549 --> 00:30:52.170
the armistice line because they believe they have the right
582
00:30:52.190 --> 00:30:54.529
to Judea and Samaria. But they also can't call it
583
00:30:55.049 --> 00:30:57.309
the Jordan River because that would then assume that all
584
00:30:57.329 --> 00:31:00.029
the people within that area are also then Israeli citizens too.
585
00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.779
They actually don't have a real set of borders here,
586
00:31:02.799 --> 00:31:03.980
which is one of the funny reasons why they say
587
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:06.119
they can't be a Palestinian state, that they're trying to
588
00:31:06.200 --> 00:31:08.950
nix with this particular plan here. When it comes to
589
00:31:09.009 --> 00:31:12.009
Burnham and Miliband, though, I think I agree with your
590
00:31:12.950 --> 00:31:14.990
statement there. What is interesting is that Ed Miliband is
591
00:31:15.029 --> 00:31:17.450
like the first European leader to be this kind of
592
00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:20.930
heavy-handed in terms of a response to E1. We might see,
593
00:31:20.950 --> 00:31:24.160
I think the French have also been potentially... looking at
594
00:31:24.180 --> 00:31:25.700
the same kind of things. I'll be interested to see
595
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:28.109
how it develops in terms of other EU and European
596
00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:30.430
states and how they respond to this. Because again, it's
597
00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:34.230
international pressure that stopped them expanding E1 before now.
598
00:31:34.289 --> 00:31:35.369
So that is encouraging.
599
00:31:35.789 --> 00:31:37.930
What's also interesting is that it seems like Andy Burnham's
600
00:31:37.970 --> 00:31:40.210
just not been involved in much of this decision making.
601
00:31:40.750 --> 00:31:42.650
Do you feel like that he is spending much more
602
00:31:42.690 --> 00:31:45.480
time delegating out these kinds of roles to foreign policy
603
00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:48.660
and other kind of Things, for example, the Home Secretary,
604
00:31:48.680 --> 00:31:50.779
Chimana Mahmood, she's got a lot of autonomy there. Does
605
00:31:50.819 --> 00:31:53.200
this show that he's really just kind of letting people
606
00:31:53.259 --> 00:31:55.980
do their jobs in ministerial posts and just focusing on
607
00:31:56.559 --> 00:31:57.549
domestic issues himself?
608
00:31:57.960 --> 00:31:59.410
I think when he came in, a lot of people
609
00:31:59.710 --> 00:32:02.210
theorised that. I think, you know, even before he became
610
00:32:02.250 --> 00:32:04.970
Prime Minister, people were saying or predicting that this is
611
00:32:05.029 --> 00:32:07.329
what he would be like because he's always come across
612
00:32:07.390 --> 00:32:12.559
as a politician who is very focused on domestic issues, right?
613
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.339
And even when you look back on his foreign policy record...
614
00:32:16.569 --> 00:32:19.289
he's always just gone with the flow on foreign policy.
615
00:32:19.309 --> 00:32:23.170
You know, he's never had different ideas on foreign policy.
616
00:32:23.230 --> 00:32:27.450
He's never spoken with any passion about foreign policy. It's always,
617
00:32:28.079 --> 00:32:31.880
he's always just done what's like politically expedient on foreign policy, right?
618
00:32:31.920 --> 00:32:34.779
So if it's good for him politically to support the
619
00:32:34.819 --> 00:32:36.720
war in Iraq, then he would support the war in Iraq.
620
00:32:37.160 --> 00:32:40.069
See also Afghanistan, et cetera.
621
00:32:40.109 --> 00:32:42.509
And I know that when he was running for the
622
00:32:42.549 --> 00:32:47.109
Labour Party leadership, He said that he didn't regret voting
623
00:32:47.150 --> 00:32:47.990
for the Iraq war.
624
00:32:48.089 --> 00:32:50.019
I remember that. I think Miliband....
625
00:32:52.380 --> 00:32:55.319
Said he did regret voting for the war at that time.
626
00:32:55.359 --> 00:32:58.740
You can correct me, Helena, with your encyclopedic brain. But
627
00:32:58.759 --> 00:33:04.559
then in 2024, Burnham said he in fact did regret
628
00:33:04.619 --> 00:33:06.769
voting for the Iraq war. So I've always felt like he,
629
00:33:07.140 --> 00:33:09.490
on foreign policy, he just kind of goes with the flow.
630
00:33:09.569 --> 00:33:11.730
He's not a man who's shown any real, as I say,
631
00:33:11.789 --> 00:33:14.819
creativity or passion or interest in it.
632
00:33:15.789 --> 00:33:18.910
But I do think that it's completely impossible to....
633
00:33:20.490 --> 00:33:24.819
To step away from foreign policy and like basically second
634
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:28.319
your foreign secretary to make all the decisions, especially because,
635
00:33:28.339 --> 00:33:30.940
you know, probably the only time I agreed with Keir
636
00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:34.970
Starmer is when just before he left office, it was
637
00:33:35.049 --> 00:33:37.930
put to him that Andy Burnham was somebody who would
638
00:33:37.950 --> 00:33:41.089
mainly focus on domestic issues and perhaps want to separate
639
00:33:41.250 --> 00:33:44.289
out domestic issues and foreign policy. And Stammer said, in
640
00:33:44.349 --> 00:33:46.500
my view, rightly, that it's impossible to do that, that
641
00:33:46.519 --> 00:33:48.380
you can't do that. I mean, because, you know, because
642
00:33:48.420 --> 00:33:53.019
foreign policy directly impacts things that happen in the UK.
643
00:33:53.160 --> 00:33:54.940
And we've seen that, I think, most clearly with the
644
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.619
straightforward moves. But of course, the straightforward moves directly affects
645
00:33:59.680 --> 00:34:02.670
the UK economy, and therefore it directly affects the money
646
00:34:03.150 --> 00:34:06.890
in people's pockets. And therefore it directly affects the thing
647
00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:10.469
that Burnham should be focusing on, And it's been good
648
00:34:10.489 --> 00:34:14.059
to see he's started his.
649
00:34:14.139 --> 00:34:16.480
Term in office focusing on, which is the cost of living.
650
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:19.579
Also Ukraine, you know, when the Ukraine war broke out,
651
00:34:19.780 --> 00:34:23.440
it immediately impacted economies all around the world. It pushed
652
00:34:23.539 --> 00:34:26.400
food prices up, it had other economic impacts. So you
653
00:34:26.420 --> 00:34:28.860
can say that Ukraine is not related to domestic issues.
654
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:30.199
Of course it is.
655
00:34:32.860 --> 00:34:36.769
So yeah, but look, if Miliband is a more proactive
656
00:34:37.010 --> 00:34:41.280
foreign secretary, than say Yvette Cooper or David Lamy was.
657
00:34:41.300 --> 00:34:43.420
Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing?
658
00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:46.039
Does it mean that there will be a more creative,
659
00:34:46.099 --> 00:34:51.599
perhaps more forthright foreign policy than if Burnham was very engaged,
660
00:34:51.679 --> 00:34:54.340
given what I said, which is that Burnham seems to
661
00:34:54.380 --> 00:34:58.679
be always quite conservative about his foreign policy and Miliband
662
00:34:58.699 --> 00:35:00.989
seems to be sort of a more creative player who
663
00:35:01.090 --> 00:35:05.050
has shown in the past a strong interest in in
664
00:35:05.090 --> 00:35:07.190
foreign policy. I think it's interesting to look at some
665
00:35:07.210 --> 00:35:11.750
of the media reports around foreign office staff as well,
666
00:35:11.929 --> 00:35:15.750
foreign office officials, because I mean, during the, you know,
667
00:35:16.070 --> 00:35:19.630
all throughout the genocide, we have seen foreign office staff
668
00:35:19.690 --> 00:35:24.550
speaking to the media to express their disquiet about British
669
00:35:24.829 --> 00:35:28.269
policy when it comes to Gaza. And we've seen resignations, right?
670
00:35:28.289 --> 00:35:29.949
There's been a couple of people who resigned from the
671
00:35:29.989 --> 00:35:31.820
foreign office over.
672
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:33.780
Gaza policy.
673
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:38.289
And so I wonder if with Miliband, they have a
674
00:35:38.510 --> 00:35:42.349
foreign secretary, those people who they can work with to
675
00:35:42.389 --> 00:35:46.110
come up with a more robust policy towards Israel and
676
00:35:46.210 --> 00:35:50.099
a more humanitarian policy towards the Palestinian people. But again,
677
00:35:50.139 --> 00:35:51.900
I hate to keep saying it remains to be seen,
678
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:53.179
but I think it remains to be seen.
679
00:35:53.639 --> 00:35:55.920
What is interesting with Ed Miliband as an individual is
680
00:35:55.960 --> 00:35:59.000
that one of my biggest criticisms, it drives me absolutely
681
00:35:59.039 --> 00:36:00.699
mad when you look at governments in this country, is
682
00:36:00.739 --> 00:36:03.610
that they refuse to take a line that in any
683
00:36:03.630 --> 00:36:07.329
way diverts from the line that DC is going with,
684
00:36:07.349 --> 00:36:09.949
that's coming out of Washington. And Ed Miliband has a
685
00:36:10.010 --> 00:36:14.010
history of being able to diverge from that. Insofar as,
686
00:36:14.030 --> 00:36:16.860
I think it was John Kerry reported a few years
687
00:36:16.900 --> 00:36:20.489
back now, that It was only Ed Miliband whipping Labour
688
00:36:20.530 --> 00:36:23.289
MPs to vote against strikes in Syria, which then lost
689
00:36:23.329 --> 00:36:27.210
the vote for David Cameron in Parliament, that then made
690
00:36:27.510 --> 00:36:30.050
Obama decide not to intervene in the end. The embarrassment
691
00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:33.800
of being undermined by an ally because the government couldn't
692
00:36:33.820 --> 00:36:35.920
win a vote in the Commons was enough to stop
693
00:36:36.039 --> 00:36:39.219
US intervention in this case. So Miliband has previously got
694
00:36:39.300 --> 00:36:42.219
track record in not being entirely tied to what's coming
695
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.760
out of the State Department. One group in Labour who
696
00:36:46.059 --> 00:36:48.679
don't like this idea, though, are Labour Friends of Israel.
697
00:36:48.860 --> 00:36:50.769
They say a boycott of all trade with settlements is
698
00:36:50.849 --> 00:36:54.030
practically and politically impossible and risks becoming a de facto
699
00:36:54.050 --> 00:36:56.690
boycott of all of Israel. Israel votes on the 27th
700
00:36:56.710 --> 00:36:59.050
of October with opposition ahead in the polls. A ban
701
00:36:59.070 --> 00:37:01.030
will help the Israeli right and harm the centre and
702
00:37:01.050 --> 00:37:04.230
the left's push for international diplomacy. The Israel and Palestine
703
00:37:04.250 --> 00:37:06.690
economies are interlinked. With the West Bank economy already fragile,
704
00:37:06.789 --> 00:37:09.719
a ban could be catastrophic. An extensive Israel and British
705
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.019
commercial relationship creates significant legal, economic and practical complications. These
706
00:37:14.039 --> 00:37:17.360
may have unintended consequences for pharma, banking, higher education, charities,
707
00:37:17.380 --> 00:37:22.389
financial services and wider Israeli-British trade. So notwithstanding the idea
708
00:37:22.429 --> 00:37:24.610
that somehow we've just kind of got to accept the
709
00:37:24.710 --> 00:37:28.690
idea that we have these interlinked economy with a state
710
00:37:28.710 --> 00:37:32.869
that's been illegally occupying another for decades and decades and decades.
711
00:37:33.309 --> 00:37:36.090
But I will say, Might it turn into a de
712
00:37:36.110 --> 00:37:40.159
facto boycott of the whole of Israel based deal?
713
00:37:40.760 --> 00:37:41.230
I'll take it.
714
00:37:41.239 --> 00:37:41.630
I'll take it.
715
00:37:41.639 --> 00:37:42.019
That seems.
716
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:46.460
Absolutely fine to me. What did you make of LFI's statement.
717
00:37:46.159 --> 00:37:46.500
There, Barry?
718
00:37:46.780 --> 00:37:49.920
I couldn't quite see because I'm remote, but was that
719
00:37:50.019 --> 00:37:51.449
full of emojis?
720
00:37:51.530 --> 00:37:53.690
It was entirely full of emojis, yeah. By the way,
721
00:37:54.090 --> 00:37:56.309
this was from earlier in August in response to, I believe,
722
00:37:56.369 --> 00:38:01.289
more discussion around a more kind of strong policy against
723
00:38:01.389 --> 00:38:03.550
settlements and a potential boycott, but that was being discussed
724
00:38:03.869 --> 00:38:05.929
by people like Andy Bunham, but it's before the latest
725
00:38:05.989 --> 00:38:08.320
announcement from Ed Miliband, just for clarity.
726
00:38:08.340 --> 00:38:08.469
Yeah.
727
00:38:09.409 --> 00:38:12.650
I wonder if like, you know, do emojis represent panic?
728
00:38:12.949 --> 00:38:15.889
I don't know. You know, looking at the tweet, it
729
00:38:15.929 --> 00:38:17.329
looks slightly unhinged, right?
730
00:38:17.349 --> 00:38:19.250
It looks like the tweet you would see from somebody
731
00:38:20.409 --> 00:38:24.769
unhinged and chaotic on Twitter. But look, for me, if
732
00:38:24.849 --> 00:38:27.789
Labour Friends of Israel are angry, then yes, then that's
733
00:38:27.969 --> 00:38:31.889
a good thing. You know, the angrier they are, I
734
00:38:31.949 --> 00:38:33.210
think that clearly.
735
00:38:32.929 --> 00:38:38.760
The more, you know, the more moral and humane.
736
00:38:39.190 --> 00:38:42.769
And politically righteous the British government's policy probably is.
737
00:38:42.789 --> 00:38:45.610
I think you can directly measure that.
738
00:38:45.659 --> 00:38:51.300
The angrier LFI is, then the better British government policy is.
739
00:38:51.739 --> 00:38:56.659
I mean, it could be interesting if Miliband is a
740
00:38:56.699 --> 00:39:02.199
politician who is willing not to bend to LFI. It
741
00:39:02.239 --> 00:39:07.619
could be that LFI thinks that it's losing some influence, maybe, as.
742
00:39:09.900 --> 00:39:13.219
That as it has penetrated the Labour Party, it does
743
00:39:13.260 --> 00:39:16.320
seem to be panicking slightly.
744
00:39:17.400 --> 00:39:21.199
I think that... Yeah.
745
00:39:21.199 --> 00:39:23.460
I think it's super.
746
00:39:22.869 --> 00:39:29.039
Interesting what you said about about Trump and how Miliband,
747
00:39:29.920 --> 00:39:33.300
you know, essentially might have been personally responsible for that
748
00:39:33.360 --> 00:39:36.519
lack of intervention in Syria over the the red line
749
00:39:36.559 --> 00:39:37.380
and the chemical weapons.
750
00:39:37.760 --> 00:39:40.719
That's a hell of a thing to have on the CV.
751
00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:45.360
I mean, what a sort of a consequential thing to
752
00:39:45.420 --> 00:39:49.440
have done for geopolitics and something that is clearly still
753
00:39:49.500 --> 00:39:52.760
remembered in Washington. I also do find it interesting that,
754
00:39:53.039 --> 00:39:56.539
you know, the US administration made it pretty clear that
755
00:39:56.579 --> 00:40:00.719
it didn't want Miliband.
756
00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:00.969
As foreign secretary.
757
00:40:01.409 --> 00:40:04.949
So Burnham was able to take a decision that he
758
00:40:04.989 --> 00:40:09.559
knew would rile Trump and would rile the current leadership
759
00:40:09.619 --> 00:40:10.920
of the state department.
760
00:40:11.019 --> 00:40:12.340
And he made that anyway.
761
00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:17.079
Um, he has said, although always this remains to be
762
00:40:17.099 --> 00:40:19.679
seen because always people talk big on Trump before they
763
00:40:19.699 --> 00:40:22.079
come into office. He did say he was willing to
764
00:40:22.119 --> 00:40:24.019
stand against Trump. He did say he was willing to
765
00:40:24.079 --> 00:40:26.639
disagree with Trump. And what's interesting to me here is,
766
00:40:26.659 --> 00:40:28.579
you know, we we've, we've already had this quiet from
767
00:40:28.599 --> 00:40:32.380
the U S about Miliband and now here's Miliband. the
768
00:40:32.420 --> 00:40:35.940
government putting out a statement that we know will rile
769
00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:40.519
the americans further so it's like we've appointed a foreign
770
00:40:40.539 --> 00:40:46.380
secretary whose appointment immediately annoys the americans and then they've
771
00:40:46.480 --> 00:40:49.639
done something that will immediately annoy the americans a month
772
00:40:49.780 --> 00:40:52.610
in and so you know given that british foreign policy
773
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:53.969
and by the way i'm not saying that this is
774
00:40:54.170 --> 00:40:59.199
is has signif has has significantly changed or is likely
775
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:03.320
to significantly change, but how British foreign policy has always
776
00:41:03.360 --> 00:41:05.599
been or has been for a very long time linked
777
00:41:05.699 --> 00:41:11.260
to US foreign policy. And very rarely does the British
778
00:41:11.300 --> 00:41:17.269
government deviate from that shadowing, essentially, of US foreign policy.
779
00:41:17.289 --> 00:41:21.699
If this government is trying to get a little bit
780
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.500
of wiggle room. And if Ed Miliband is the kind
781
00:41:24.519 --> 00:41:25.320
of person.
782
00:41:25.019 --> 00:41:27.800
Who actually believes.
783
00:41:27.139 --> 00:41:31.780
In something, could it be that Ed Miliband actually believes
784
00:41:31.860 --> 00:41:34.699
in something? You know, because that's the other thing that
785
00:41:34.739 --> 00:41:37.920
we've seen with this Labour government, famously with Starmer, but
786
00:41:37.980 --> 00:41:39.960
also I think with other members of the government, like
787
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.900
they're rabid flip-floppers. And also Burnham has been a rabid
788
00:41:42.940 --> 00:41:45.139
flip-flopper in his career. So I think, you know, we've
789
00:41:45.159 --> 00:41:47.429
talked about this on the show ad nauseum, and it's
790
00:41:47.449 --> 00:41:50.489
definitely one of my bugbears where you get these career politicians,
791
00:41:50.670 --> 00:41:57.559
which Burnham also is, who don't seem to believe in
792
00:41:57.900 --> 00:41:59.760
anything beyond power.
793
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:03.159
Like, what was Starmer the prime minister for? Why did
794
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:04.699
he want to be prime minister?
795
00:42:05.000 --> 00:42:07.900
Like still, you know, a month after he's left, I
796
00:42:07.940 --> 00:42:10.900
have no idea what that man wanted to do as
797
00:42:10.940 --> 00:42:12.929
prime minister or why he wanted that job.
798
00:42:13.280 --> 00:42:15.230
I actually believe I'm going off on a tangent here.
799
00:42:15.489 --> 00:42:18.289
But I actually believe that politics has become just a
800
00:42:18.349 --> 00:42:21.750
profession for them. You know, so if they were in finance,
801
00:42:21.829 --> 00:42:23.690
they would do everything that they need to do to
802
00:42:23.730 --> 00:42:26.889
climb the slippery pole to the top. you know, if
803
00:42:26.929 --> 00:42:31.349
they were in law, the same, you know, whatever industry, journalism,
804
00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:34.369
they would, you know, stab their colleagues in the back
805
00:42:34.389 --> 00:42:35.469
to become editor in chief.
806
00:42:35.780 --> 00:42:37.719
I think that's how a lot of these politicians are
807
00:42:37.780 --> 00:42:38.179
these days.
808
00:42:38.219 --> 00:42:39.519
I think it's just, this is my job and I'm
809
00:42:39.539 --> 00:42:40.639
going to go to the top and I'm going to
810
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:42.840
do anything that I can to go to the top
811
00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:46.079
and principles, forget them. Anyway, that's the end of my tangent.
812
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.539
But the question I'm asking is, could Miliband actually believe
813
00:42:49.559 --> 00:42:51.679
in something? If we have a foreign secretary who believes
814
00:42:51.719 --> 00:42:53.880
in something, and we have a government that's willing to
815
00:42:53.940 --> 00:42:56.110
stand up to the United States a little bit more,
816
00:42:56.530 --> 00:42:59.210
then that could be a clue that we may see
817
00:42:59.409 --> 00:43:05.030
some changes on policy towards Israel. But please, you know,
818
00:43:05.389 --> 00:43:08.510
to the listeners and viewers, don't think that I'm a
819
00:43:08.550 --> 00:43:09.510
true believer in this.
820
00:43:09.889 --> 00:43:11.480
I'm watching and waiting.
821
00:43:11.940 --> 00:43:13.920
Yeah, I think the big issue there comes down to
822
00:43:13.960 --> 00:43:17.429
the fact that the big thing that Andy Burnham believes
823
00:43:17.469 --> 00:43:20.079
in is being the cost of living prime minister, right?
824
00:43:20.440 --> 00:43:22.139
And you can't claim to be the cost of living
825
00:43:22.159 --> 00:43:26.480
prime minister whilst helping facilitate America's actions in Iran by
826
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:29.659
use of our military bases, which is directly impacting the
827
00:43:29.699 --> 00:43:31.789
cost of living. We're seeing, I think it was news
828
00:43:31.849 --> 00:43:34.949
this week, that inflation's already gone up higher than expected
829
00:43:34.989 --> 00:43:37.090
because of the fallout because of the closure of the
830
00:43:37.130 --> 00:43:40.400
Strait of Hormuz. So, like, that's all one big mess,
831
00:43:40.659 --> 00:43:43.559
and we have yet to see the governments change their
832
00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:44.880
position from what they previously had.
833
00:43:44.900 --> 00:43:46.539
Do you want to go to one of your comments here?
834
00:43:46.559 --> 00:43:48.619
So, thank you, first of all, Amber, for the two dollars.
835
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:51.880
And Minty with the two pound asks, why does the
836
00:43:51.980 --> 00:43:54.909
UN Council call it the State of Palestine? So, the
837
00:43:55.969 --> 00:43:59.030
State of Palestine is an observer, non-member state, if I
838
00:43:59.030 --> 00:44:01.269
remember correctly. I believe that's the reason why that they
839
00:44:01.409 --> 00:44:03.769
are called the State of Palestine, because they're an observer,
840
00:44:03.949 --> 00:44:04.750
non-member state.
841
00:44:05.289 --> 00:44:05.449
So.
842
00:44:06.210 --> 00:44:09.179
I mean, they are indeed recognised by some countries but
843
00:44:09.199 --> 00:44:11.480
not others. Thankfully, they are now recognised by the UK
844
00:44:11.500 --> 00:44:14.960
at the very least. An extraordinary investigation by Rohit Kachru,
845
00:44:15.019 --> 00:44:18.269
the global security editor for ICV News, today revealed a
846
00:44:18.349 --> 00:44:20.989
plot funded by the United Arab Emirates to follow and
847
00:44:21.030 --> 00:44:24.989
potentially assassinate a British Iraqi activist in London. The story
848
00:44:25.030 --> 00:44:27.199
is perhaps another example of something we've discussed on the
849
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.300
show before, the willingness of the UAE, a close UK ally,
850
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:33.380
to make things difficult for the British government. The ITV story,
851
00:44:33.420 --> 00:44:36.619
which drew on witness testimony, emails, text messages and confidential
852
00:44:36.659 --> 00:44:39.889
Emirati records, show that a team of mercenaries for hire
853
00:44:40.210 --> 00:44:43.809
ran a surveillance operation on Anas Altakriti, chief executive of
854
00:44:43.829 --> 00:44:47.750
the Cordoba Foundation, a think tank based in London in 2016.
855
00:44:47.750 --> 00:44:50.579
The covert team was led by a man named Abraham Golan,
856
00:44:50.960 --> 00:44:54.780
a dual Hungarian-Israeli citizen based in the U.S., Galan was
857
00:44:54.820 --> 00:44:57.670
a former French Foreign Legion soldier who had worked as
858
00:44:57.690 --> 00:44:59.909
the head of a mercenary unit for the UAE in Yemen,
859
00:45:00.369 --> 00:45:06.110
targeting perceived Emirati enemies, including senior politicians for assassination. Galan's
860
00:45:06.130 --> 00:45:09.400
team in the UK compiled photographs of Al-Takriti's house in London,
861
00:45:09.699 --> 00:45:12.280
mapped his route to work, and even pinpointed the door
862
00:45:12.320 --> 00:45:14.800
he used to enter his office building. Here is Rohit
863
00:45:14.820 --> 00:45:17.019
Katru showing Al-Takriti some of the evidence.
864
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:21.090
Ten years on, I'm revealing to their target the operation
865
00:45:21.219 --> 00:45:21.730
against him.
866
00:45:23.070 --> 00:45:32.050
I feel a little bit physically sick. Yeah, it's disorienting,
867
00:45:32.329 --> 00:45:32.909
I have to say.
868
00:45:33.329 --> 00:45:37.170
We're showing Anas Al-Takriti some of the messages that Golan
869
00:45:37.230 --> 00:45:39.650
sent about him during his time in London.
870
00:45:40.090 --> 00:45:44.449
My local mosque, my activities in terms of where I've
871
00:45:44.489 --> 00:45:45.969
attended and spoken.
872
00:45:46.860 --> 00:45:50.820
Over WhatsApp, Golan sent a request to a potential researcher
873
00:45:50.900 --> 00:45:53.880
for a brief on Al-Takriti. He wanted a list of
874
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:57.000
addresses for his home, his office, his mosque. And he
875
00:45:57.059 --> 00:46:02.119
offered $ 100, 000. The fee could be a life changer, he said.
876
00:46:03.139 --> 00:46:07.980
Clearly they were following my movements around London. It's quite
877
00:46:08.000 --> 00:46:12.610
incredible what kind of emotions it invokes.
878
00:46:12.929 --> 00:46:15.750
The motive for the UAE targeting Al-Takriti appears to be
879
00:46:15.789 --> 00:46:18.170
his links to the Muslim Brotherhood, one of the Arab
880
00:46:18.210 --> 00:46:22.780
world's largest and most influential Islamist organisations. Anas Al-Takriti's father,
881
00:46:22.840 --> 00:46:26.179
Osama Al-Takriti, had once been head of the Iraqi Islamic Party,
882
00:46:26.219 --> 00:46:29.280
which has links to the Brotherhood. Al-Takriti told ITV News this,
883
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:32.059
I have good relations because my father is my father.
884
00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:34.719
I understand the ideology. I studied the ideology of the
885
00:46:34.760 --> 00:46:36.989
Muslim Brotherhood. I believe the Muslim Brotherhood to be a
886
00:46:37.010 --> 00:46:39.449
valid ideology for people who are seeking to free themselves
887
00:46:39.469 --> 00:46:42.039
from the clutches of oppression. However, I'm a Brit. I
888
00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:43.780
grew up in Britain. In my life, I have never
889
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:47.780
done anything wrong whatsoever. Now, the Muslim Brotherhood connection is important.
890
00:46:48.019 --> 00:46:50.460
The UAE views the group as an existential threat and
891
00:46:50.500 --> 00:46:52.380
has been pushing the British government to prescribe it as
892
00:46:52.420 --> 00:46:55.840
a terrorist organisation for years, something the government has resisted.
893
00:46:56.599 --> 00:46:59.980
Abu Dhabi has, of course, prescribed the Brotherhood, but in
894
00:46:59.980 --> 00:47:02.469
2014 it released a new list of prescribed groups that
895
00:47:02.510 --> 00:47:05.610
raised eyebrows in Whitehall. That's because on the list, alongside
896
00:47:05.730 --> 00:47:09.489
ISIS and Al-Qaeda, was Al-Takriti's Cordoba Foundation and two other
897
00:47:09.530 --> 00:47:13.679
mainstream groups. Islamic Relief, and the Muslim Association of Britain, again,
898
00:47:13.780 --> 00:47:16.179
because the Emiratis claimed that they were Muslim Brotherhood linked.
899
00:47:16.989 --> 00:47:20.769
ICV also spoke to an anonymous source, who they called Victor. Victor,
900
00:47:20.869 --> 00:47:23.929
a strategist and researcher, said he had been called by Golan,
901
00:47:24.289 --> 00:47:26.349
who he had worked with before, and met with him
902
00:47:26.369 --> 00:47:28.309
in a former US Navy SEAL in a London pub.
903
00:47:28.909 --> 00:47:31.199
But Victor got cold feet when he believed he had
904
00:47:31.239 --> 00:47:32.760
figured out the operation's ultimate aim.
905
00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:33.639
Take a look.
906
00:47:33.980 --> 00:47:38.380
Golan's follow-up messages became increasingly urgent. He demanded to know
907
00:47:38.460 --> 00:47:43.159
personal details. His team was ready, he said. At one point,
908
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:46.119
he suggested Victor should pretend to be an author writing
909
00:47:46.179 --> 00:47:49.469
about the Muslim Brotherhood and persuade Al-Takriti to grant him
910
00:47:49.510 --> 00:47:54.369
an interview somewhere outdoors. But it was during another meeting
911
00:47:54.670 --> 00:47:58.349
when Golan's colleague, the former Navy SEAL, was much clearer.
912
00:47:59.429 --> 00:48:01.510
The final nail in the coffin was when he said
913
00:48:01.550 --> 00:48:05.409
to me, what would happen if Al-Takriti was... and then
914
00:48:05.449 --> 00:48:08.809
made a slicing motion across his neck. which suggested that
915
00:48:08.849 --> 00:48:13.150
the possible objective of that operation was to assassinate Al-Takriti.
916
00:48:13.469 --> 00:48:16.329
Al-Takriti said police later visited him at his home and
917
00:48:16.389 --> 00:48:18.409
informed him that his life was in danger, but refused
918
00:48:18.449 --> 00:48:21.289
to give him any details. The UAE has refused to
919
00:48:21.329 --> 00:48:23.929
comment on the ITV story, and a spokesperson for the
920
00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:27.070
Home Office said, it is our long-standing policy not to
921
00:48:27.130 --> 00:48:30.090
comment on security and intelligence matters. Barry, we're going to
922
00:48:30.130 --> 00:48:32.349
talk about the wider story of the UAE interference in
923
00:48:32.369 --> 00:48:34.489
the UK and elsewhere in a minute. But first, what's
924
00:48:34.510 --> 00:48:35.550
your reaction to this story?
925
00:48:35.949 --> 00:48:37.949
It's insane. It's crazy.
926
00:48:37.980 --> 00:48:41.400
I saw it this morning and I couldn't believe it.
927
00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:45.610
Although let me clarify, I can believe that the UAE
928
00:48:46.429 --> 00:48:50.349
would try something this outrageous. But when I read the
929
00:48:50.409 --> 00:48:54.989
details of it, it was still completely shocking to me.
930
00:48:55.570 --> 00:48:57.539
I mean, think about it.
931
00:48:57.989 --> 00:49:02.190
It's a foreign government, but that's a really close ally
932
00:49:02.449 --> 00:49:08.860
of the UK sending a mercenary group into London to
933
00:49:08.880 --> 00:49:11.639
hunt down and potentially assassinate.
934
00:49:11.659 --> 00:49:13.559
A British citizen.
935
00:49:14.199 --> 00:49:18.090
Now, we know that states will you know, go after
936
00:49:18.179 --> 00:49:21.869
dissidents around the world or go after critics around the world.
937
00:49:22.210 --> 00:49:24.750
We've seen that before. We've seen Russia do it.
938
00:49:24.789 --> 00:49:28.730
We've seen Saudi Arabia infamously do it with Jamal al-Kashoggi,
939
00:49:29.030 --> 00:49:32.590
who they dismembered with a bone saw in the Saudi
940
00:49:32.639 --> 00:49:34.079
embassy in Turkey.
941
00:49:35.280 --> 00:49:37.139
But I think what's interesting here is that.
942
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:41.500
The UAE has effectively violated the sovereignty of a very
943
00:49:41.559 --> 00:49:45.250
key ally in the UK. And The UK and the
944
00:49:45.369 --> 00:49:50.550
UAE have a close relationship that has been getting closer
945
00:49:50.670 --> 00:49:54.230
and closer and actually grew a lot closer over the
946
00:49:54.250 --> 00:49:57.590
last decade and was growing closer just before this happened.
947
00:49:57.630 --> 00:50:01.650
Because this, according to the ITV News report, happened in 2016.
948
00:50:01.630 --> 00:50:03.289
It was 2016 when this mercenary, Abraham Golan, died.
949
00:50:08.780 --> 00:50:14.000
Was tracking Anas Tikriti around London. When you look into
950
00:50:14.019 --> 00:50:17.099
the detail, they're mapping his route to work. They have
951
00:50:17.199 --> 00:50:20.570
photographs of his car. They have photographs of his house.
952
00:50:20.590 --> 00:50:22.639
They want to know what corner shop he goes to.
953
00:50:22.929 --> 00:50:25.230
They want to know what mosque he prays at. They
954
00:50:25.250 --> 00:50:27.869
want to know exactly which door, because apparently there were
955
00:50:27.909 --> 00:50:30.590
several different doors into the office building that he worked in.
956
00:50:30.849 --> 00:50:33.429
They wanted to know exactly which one he walked in
957
00:50:33.469 --> 00:50:33.789
and out.
958
00:50:34.110 --> 00:50:38.010
Now, ITV News have that one source, Victor, who was
959
00:50:38.230 --> 00:50:40.300
asked to get involved in the plot as a researcher
960
00:50:40.360 --> 00:50:42.940
or a strategist and then said, I think they're actually going.
961
00:50:42.860 --> 00:50:43.199
To kill him.
962
00:50:43.539 --> 00:50:47.719
I mean, it's circumstantial, but if they want to know
963
00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:52.530
the exact door the man walks into in his office building,
964
00:50:52.969 --> 00:50:54.769
if they want to know what shop he goes to,
965
00:50:55.170 --> 00:50:58.349
if they wanted Victor to lure him out into the open...
966
00:50:59.019 --> 00:51:01.179
I mean, it's hard not to conclude that the ultimate
967
00:51:01.300 --> 00:51:03.420
aim here was to assassinate the guy on British soil,
968
00:51:03.699 --> 00:51:06.780
which again, I want to say is a violation of
969
00:51:06.920 --> 00:51:10.699
UK sovereignty. And what's really interesting is that at the
970
00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:15.429
same time this was happening, the UK was courting the
971
00:51:15.510 --> 00:51:19.269
UAE because, look, we know that the UAE.
972
00:51:19.090 --> 00:51:21.869
Is important to the UK for financial reasons, right? We have,
973
00:51:22.150 --> 00:51:22.730
the UAE.
974
00:51:22.550 --> 00:51:27.019
Has billions and billions of of pounds in investments in
975
00:51:27.039 --> 00:51:28.909
the UK. And then also, I think the UK sees
976
00:51:28.929 --> 00:51:31.530
it as an important security ally in the Gulf. So
977
00:51:31.570 --> 00:51:34.329
the UK, I think, is often willing to close its
978
00:51:34.489 --> 00:51:37.909
eyes to the nefarious activities of the UAE. So again,
979
00:51:37.929 --> 00:51:40.349
we're looking at a potential assassination of a British citizen
980
00:51:40.650 --> 00:51:43.539
on British soil. And what's also really interesting from the
981
00:51:43.659 --> 00:51:46.000
ITV news piece is apparently Britain.
982
00:51:45.800 --> 00:51:46.550
Found out about it.
983
00:51:47.119 --> 00:51:52.059
So Anas Tikriti was visited by police who told him,
984
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.539
twice they visited him, who told him, that his life
985
00:51:55.579 --> 00:51:58.699
was in danger, but refused to give him any detail
986
00:51:58.719 --> 00:51:59.079
about that.
987
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:02.909
None, he says, none whatsoever. Your life is in danger.
988
00:52:02.929 --> 00:52:04.409
I think it's because they give you, the police give
989
00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:06.889
you an Osman notice when your life is in danger.
990
00:52:06.909 --> 00:52:09.289
So they went to him, they said, your life's in danger. Effectively,
991
00:52:09.309 --> 00:52:11.650
someone's trying to kill you. Here's an Osman notice. Who's
992
00:52:11.670 --> 00:52:13.489
trying to kill me? Can you give me any more details? No, sorry,
993
00:52:13.510 --> 00:52:15.699
it's a national security matter. Can you imagine, can you
994
00:52:15.739 --> 00:52:18.099
imagine police coming to your house and telling you someone's
995
00:52:18.119 --> 00:52:19.780
trying to kill you and then refusing to give you
996
00:52:19.920 --> 00:52:22.539
any detail whatsoever on who's trying to kill you? although
997
00:52:22.559 --> 00:52:24.760
he probably had quite a good guess. But it shows
998
00:52:24.820 --> 00:52:28.300
that the intelligence services knew. It shows that the intelligence
999
00:52:28.320 --> 00:52:31.050
services at some point found out about this plot, went
1000
00:52:31.090 --> 00:52:36.039
and warned him, But then what? Continued to develop this
1001
00:52:36.219 --> 00:52:39.179
close relationship with the UAE. At the same time as
1002
00:52:39.219 --> 00:52:43.090
he was being tracked around London, then Prince Charles and
1003
00:52:43.110 --> 00:52:45.849
Camilla went to the UAE for a big sort of
1004
00:52:46.289 --> 00:52:48.610
UK loves the UAE jamboree.
1005
00:52:49.230 --> 00:52:51.929
So they were hanging out in the UAE.
1006
00:52:51.969 --> 00:52:56.460
At swish balls while the UAE had a British citizen
1007
00:52:56.539 --> 00:52:59.340
being tracked around London.
1008
00:52:59.539 --> 00:53:01.000
I mean, it's crazy.
1009
00:53:01.360 --> 00:53:03.550
Now, as we said, this is just the latest example
1010
00:53:03.570 --> 00:53:06.789
of questionable Emirati dealings in the UK and elsewhere. We
1011
00:53:06.829 --> 00:53:09.449
discussed the civil war in Sudan on Novara Live last month.
1012
00:53:10.030 --> 00:53:12.090
In that segment, we covered the fact that the Rapid
1013
00:53:12.110 --> 00:53:15.409
Support Forces, or RSF, the paramilitary group, which has been
1014
00:53:15.429 --> 00:53:18.320
accused of carrying out genocidal acts during the war, has
1015
00:53:18.340 --> 00:53:21.719
been using British military equipment, including small arms target systems
1016
00:53:21.739 --> 00:53:23.400
and engines for armoured personnel carriers.
1017
00:53:24.019 --> 00:53:25.920
And where did it get it from? You guessed it,
1018
00:53:25.960 --> 00:53:26.559
from the UAE.
1019
00:53:27.429 --> 00:53:30.230
But according to official data, the government approved more weapons
1020
00:53:30.309 --> 00:53:32.750
exports to the UAE in the months after the UN
1021
00:53:32.769 --> 00:53:36.630
Security Council received information about British arms being in RSF hands.
1022
00:53:37.190 --> 00:53:39.550
And our government has been, well, very quiet about all
1023
00:53:39.570 --> 00:53:43.199
of this. Another intriguing situation involving the UAE is its
1024
00:53:43.260 --> 00:53:46.239
relations with hard-right figures such as Tommy Robinson and Nigel Farage.
1025
00:53:46.880 --> 00:53:49.860
Robinson has developed a very keen interest in politics involving
1026
00:53:49.880 --> 00:53:52.460
the UAE, weighing in on things that never really seemed
1027
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:54.940
to bother him before. Here's a bizarre Twitter post from
1028
00:53:54.980 --> 00:53:58.039
September last year. A new report by the United Nations
1029
00:53:58.079 --> 00:54:01.119
has shed light on a troubling reality. Turkish-made weapons are
1030
00:54:01.159 --> 00:54:03.909
fueling the conflict in Sudan and South Sudan, despite an
1031
00:54:03.929 --> 00:54:07.690
international arms embargo in place since 2018. The findings, presented
1032
00:54:07.710 --> 00:54:10.289
to the UN Security Council in July, highlight a pattern
1033
00:54:10.309 --> 00:54:14.409
of weak export oversight, diversion of arms, and resulting destabilization
1034
00:54:14.429 --> 00:54:18.199
of one of Africa's most fragile regions. Beyond small arms,
1035
00:54:18.380 --> 00:54:23.280
the use of Turkish drones, particularly Bayratkar TB2 and Akintsi models,
1036
00:54:23.659 --> 00:54:27.239
alongside electronic warfare systems, has been reported in the Sudanese conflict.
1037
00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.840
These advanced weapon systems have shaped the battlefield, worsening the
1038
00:54:30.880 --> 00:54:34.820
humanitarian crisis, displacing thousands and deepening instability in the region.
1039
00:54:35.440 --> 00:54:38.030
Erdogan has been nothing but a sly dog, yet still
1040
00:54:38.070 --> 00:54:42.730
rubs noses with European leaders. Does that sound like Tommy
1041
00:54:42.769 --> 00:54:46.150
Robinson to you? Well, this next one's even weirder. In
1042
00:54:46.190 --> 00:54:50.289
Yemen's fractured landscape, true unity starts with southern Yemen's cohesion,
1043
00:54:50.650 --> 00:54:53.639
from Hadhramout to al-Mahra, as a cornerstone for regional peace.
1044
00:54:54.110 --> 00:54:57.820
Yet the parliament's recent statement exposes its flaws. Largely inactive
1045
00:54:57.860 --> 00:55:00.539
with members abroad and no real oversight, it lacked democratic
1046
00:55:00.559 --> 00:55:04.719
legitimacy to issue warnings. Politicised by Muslim Brotherhood Islam agendas,
1047
00:55:05.059 --> 00:55:08.030
it targets local actors while weaponising unity for factional gain,
1048
00:55:08.429 --> 00:55:12.329
ignoring civilian cries for salaries, services and security. Worse, it
1049
00:55:12.369 --> 00:55:15.630
sidesteps the Houthi menace. Backed by Iran, failing to condemn
1050
00:55:15.650 --> 00:55:18.730
their sieges and attacks, Southern unity isn't division, it's the
1051
00:55:18.769 --> 00:55:22.250
path to stability, countering extremism and fostering genuine peace.
1052
00:55:22.730 --> 00:55:24.550
Barry, what's going on here?
1053
00:55:24.869 --> 00:55:28.800
How extensively is the UAE interfering in British politics? Why
1054
00:55:28.840 --> 00:55:31.719
is the government so quiet? And why is Tommy Robinson
1055
00:55:31.739 --> 00:55:32.539
talking about al-Mahra?
1056
00:55:32.880 --> 00:55:35.860
Sorry, I'm still laughing at those tweets. They're completely bizarre.
1057
00:55:36.179 --> 00:55:39.000
Just picture Tommy Robinson sitting down.
1058
00:55:41.059 --> 00:55:44.780
In Yemen's fractured landscape. In Yemen's fractured landscape.
1059
00:55:44.820 --> 00:55:48.360
Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, it's absolutely bizarre. And it
1060
00:55:48.420 --> 00:55:51.519
couldn't be clearer that he didn't write those tweets. And,
1061
00:55:51.659 --> 00:55:53.940
you know, oh my God, could they try and hide
1062
00:55:53.980 --> 00:55:56.400
it just a touch? Just a little, guys?
1063
00:55:56.440 --> 00:55:57.599
Can you not be so obvious?
1064
00:55:58.119 --> 00:56:01.460
But Tommy Robinson is clearly part of what's actually a
1065
00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:07.139
very extensive UAE sort of influence operation across social media. And,
1066
00:56:07.340 --> 00:56:13.889
you know, where the UAE is effectively contracting non-Emiratis to
1067
00:56:14.090 --> 00:56:16.369
talk about its foreign policy. Now, this has been well
1068
00:56:16.409 --> 00:56:20.329
reported to talk about its foreign policy goals or to
1069
00:56:20.409 --> 00:56:24.289
paint its foreign policy activities in a positive light. And
1070
00:56:24.309 --> 00:56:29.139
there's also a huge network of Emirati influencers on TikTok,
1071
00:56:29.280 --> 00:56:33.039
on YouTube, on Twitter, who speak in English.
1072
00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:35.079
You know, that's so key.
1073
00:56:35.400 --> 00:56:38.199
So you have people from the UAE, young people from
1074
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:42.800
the UAE, who are influencers, who talk about Emirati politics
1075
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.849
in English. Who's that aimed at? We know who that's
1076
00:56:47.070 --> 00:56:50.530
aimed at. It's not aimed at Emiratis. And so they
1077
00:56:50.969 --> 00:56:55.710
are very, they're very across, you know, maintaining or controlling
1078
00:56:56.090 --> 00:57:01.000
how they're perceived. And, you know, we can't prove it,
1079
00:57:01.190 --> 00:57:05.909
but those posts from Tommy Robinson do look very, very odd.
1080
00:57:06.289 --> 00:57:09.659
We've also seen the UAE cozying up to Nigel Farage.
1081
00:57:10.440 --> 00:57:12.739
You know, I remember a few years ago, Farage had
1082
00:57:12.820 --> 00:57:17.920
called the UAE sort of a, um, like a, like
1083
00:57:17.960 --> 00:57:22.800
an autocratic, uh, royal dictatorship or something. He, he'd come
1084
00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:26.619
out with a, with a statement about the UAE, essentially, uh, yeah,
1085
00:57:26.679 --> 00:57:29.980
essentially calling it sort of a, an authoritative dictatorship. And
1086
00:57:30.039 --> 00:57:33.110
now he talks about his great friends in the UAE
1087
00:57:33.190 --> 00:57:36.369
and travels to the UAE, which by the way, Robinson
1088
00:57:36.409 --> 00:57:39.510
has also traveled to the UAE several times. And there
1089
00:57:39.530 --> 00:57:43.530
was one meeting recently where Farage went to meet politicians
1090
00:57:44.110 --> 00:57:47.030
in the Emirates and it was almost like they were
1091
00:57:47.070 --> 00:57:49.250
treating him like a prime minister and waiting.
1092
00:57:49.309 --> 00:57:49.489
Right.
1093
00:57:49.530 --> 00:57:51.900
It's like when. You know, when you know.
1094
00:57:51.659 --> 00:57:56.289
That a government is about to change and representatives of
1095
00:57:56.309 --> 00:57:58.869
that party go to meet an ally, like.
1096
00:57:58.789 --> 00:57:59.769
We see that happening, right?
1097
00:57:59.789 --> 00:58:02.070
We've seen where if the Labour government is coming in,
1098
00:58:02.110 --> 00:58:04.789
Kirsten will go and have a meeting with, you know,
1099
00:58:04.889 --> 00:58:08.929
the state department or something because they're getting their ducks in.
1100
00:58:08.909 --> 00:58:09.369
A row, right?
1101
00:58:09.630 --> 00:58:12.469
And it felt like that with Farage and one of
1102
00:58:12.510 --> 00:58:15.019
the trips that he did to the Emirates recently. And
1103
00:58:15.079 --> 00:58:20.099
it's very obvious what the Emiratis are trying to do Again,
1104
00:58:20.159 --> 00:58:23.139
when you look at the Muslim Brotherhood and you look
1105
00:58:23.760 --> 00:58:28.289
at the fact that they sanctioned all of those organisations
1106
00:58:28.329 --> 00:58:31.449
who they believe, or sorry, proscribed all of those British
1107
00:58:31.510 --> 00:58:35.110
organisations who they believe are related to the Muslim Brotherhood, which,
1108
00:58:35.170 --> 00:58:37.440
by the way, is not a terrorist organisation.
1109
00:58:38.090 --> 00:58:41.429
And if the UK, thankfully, has resisted.
1110
00:58:41.210 --> 00:58:44.670
So far, was to prescribe the Muslim Brotherhood as a
1111
00:58:44.710 --> 00:58:47.369
terrorist organization, it would be absurd and it would be
1112
00:58:47.409 --> 00:58:51.260
something that they had done completely at the behest of
1113
00:58:51.550 --> 00:58:56.000
the Emiratis. But you can see where the intersection with
1114
00:58:56.059 --> 00:59:02.639
Robinson and Farage comes in because Robinson and Farage can...
1115
00:59:03.489 --> 00:59:08.530
their Islamophobia can be weaponized by the Emiratis for the
1116
00:59:08.630 --> 00:59:12.650
Emiratis to you know, to succeed with their policy goals
1117
00:59:12.769 --> 00:59:15.739
in the UK. So for example, there was a nonsense
1118
00:59:15.800 --> 00:59:18.610
story that the Telegraph and other people picked up on
1119
00:59:19.449 --> 00:59:23.739
that British university students were being radicalized by the Muslim
1120
00:59:23.760 --> 00:59:26.599
Brotherhood in university, on university campuses.
1121
00:59:26.940 --> 00:59:28.940
And the UAE absurdly.
1122
00:59:28.599 --> 00:59:31.480
Said that Emirati students couldn't come to the UK anymore
1123
00:59:31.519 --> 00:59:34.300
because they would be radicalized by the Muslim Brotherhood, offering
1124
00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:36.099
no proof, of course. I mean, the whole thing was
1125
00:59:36.280 --> 00:59:39.210
utter nonsense, but it was, you know, manna from heaven
1126
00:59:39.309 --> 00:59:42.190
for the Telegraph and the Times and whoever else wanted
1127
00:59:42.230 --> 00:59:43.429
to push that agenda.
1128
00:59:43.449 --> 00:59:46.250
So again, just being weaponized by the Emirates.
1129
00:59:46.650 --> 00:59:49.909
And then, you know, you look at other intersections with
1130
00:59:49.949 --> 00:59:52.420
British policy, which again, Sudan, like we talked about it
1131
00:59:52.500 --> 00:59:54.679
on the show, last month.
1132
00:59:55.320 --> 00:59:57.400
And again, like you said in the intro there.
1133
00:59:57.880 --> 01:00:02.340
British weaponry has been found to have been in the
1134
01:00:02.380 --> 01:00:06.719
hands of the RSF, a paramilitary group in Sudan that
1135
01:00:06.900 --> 01:00:12.519
has committed genocidal acts. Nathaniel Raymond, a Yale researcher, appeared
1136
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:17.570
before a parliamentary committee recently and said bluntly that the
1137
01:00:17.730 --> 01:00:23.710
UK had not intervened in the In what we knew
1138
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:26.550
was going to be a slaughter in the town of
1139
01:00:26.639 --> 01:00:29.659
El Fasher, as it was surrounded by the RSF militia,
1140
01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.840
it was surrounded by the militia for 18 months. Everybody
1141
01:00:32.880 --> 01:00:35.699
knew that if they got in, that they would commit
1142
01:00:35.719 --> 01:00:38.039
genocidal acts. So in effect, you can argue that there
1143
01:00:38.059 --> 01:00:42.099
was 18 months there to call off the UAE, which
1144
01:00:42.199 --> 01:00:45.679
is key to backing the RSF. And the UK sells
1145
01:00:45.719 --> 01:00:47.639
weapons to the UAE, which.
1146
01:00:47.539 --> 01:00:48.469
Then go to the RSF.
1147
01:00:48.570 --> 01:00:50.389
I mean, you can see the problem and the UAE
1148
01:00:50.530 --> 01:00:53.230
and the UK has never spoken out about the UAE. Sorry,
1149
01:00:53.250 --> 01:00:55.769
what this all goes to show is that when it
1150
01:00:55.809 --> 01:00:58.150
comes to the United Arab Emirates, it seems like there
1151
01:00:58.210 --> 01:01:02.269
is nothing too nefarious that they can do that would
1152
01:01:02.329 --> 01:01:06.369
make the UK government speak out. They can try to
1153
01:01:06.429 --> 01:01:09.369
assassinate a British citizen in London.
1154
01:01:10.090 --> 01:01:10.989
They can use.
1155
01:01:10.849 --> 01:01:15.400
British weapons to perpetrate genocidal acts in Sudan.
1156
01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:18.519
And yet the British government stays silent.
1157
01:01:18.780 --> 01:01:21.840
More than that, the British government is what's called the
1158
01:01:21.900 --> 01:01:24.989
penholder for Sudan at the UN Security Council.
1159
01:01:25.300 --> 01:01:28.380
What that effectively means is when there is... you know,
1160
01:01:28.449 --> 01:01:29.599
a big issue or.
1161
01:01:29.559 --> 01:01:31.900
Emergency that the Security Council is dealing with on an
1162
01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:35.820
ongoing basis, one country takes the responsibility to sort of
1163
01:01:35.940 --> 01:01:40.659
administratively handle that situation, which also involves like drafting resolutions,
1164
01:01:40.780 --> 01:01:44.610
calling meetings, holding meetings, chairing meetings. So with the UK
1165
01:01:44.650 --> 01:01:47.510
being the penholder for Sudan on the Security Council, that
1166
01:01:47.570 --> 01:01:50.690
Yale researcher, Nathaniel Raymond, said it actually puts the UK
1167
01:01:51.170 --> 01:01:55.119
in quite a uniquely influential position on the Sudan war,
1168
01:01:55.420 --> 01:01:59.099
on the Security Council. But couple that with the close relationship,
1169
01:01:59.679 --> 01:02:03.590
and you can see that the UK... does have levers,
1170
01:02:04.349 --> 01:02:08.369
but it's sit back and let that massacre in al-Fasher
1171
01:02:08.809 --> 01:02:11.090
happen anyway. The other thing that I do want to
1172
01:02:11.130 --> 01:02:15.429
say is that the UAE is currently involved in an
1173
01:02:15.469 --> 01:02:19.070
imperial project. You know, the UAE is involved in a
1174
01:02:19.110 --> 01:02:23.610
colonial project in the Horn of Africa across the Sahel.
1175
01:02:24.130 --> 01:02:27.050
You know, it's backing the RSF in Sudan. And we
1176
01:02:27.070 --> 01:02:30.670
always call the war in Sudan a civil war. which yes,
1177
01:02:30.690 --> 01:02:33.469
it is on the surface. But the more I see
1178
01:02:33.849 --> 01:02:36.510
about the UAE involvement in this war, the more I
1179
01:02:36.550 --> 01:02:39.349
actually think it's probably more accurate to call it a
1180
01:02:39.449 --> 01:02:43.909
war between Sudan and the UAE. I mean, this is
1181
01:02:43.949 --> 01:02:46.570
not like some kind of a light proxy war. Experts
1182
01:02:46.590 --> 01:02:50.090
say that if the UAE was to withdraw its support
1183
01:02:50.110 --> 01:02:53.440
from the RSF, the RSF could be defeated within a month.
1184
01:02:53.940 --> 01:02:56.639
So I'm increasingly seeing this as an actual war between
1185
01:02:56.659 --> 01:03:00.960
the Emiratis and the Sudanese, the Ethiopian government, propped up
1186
01:03:01.360 --> 01:03:07.300
by UAE support, a government that has also committed genocidal
1187
01:03:07.380 --> 01:03:10.800
acts in a civil war, accused of committing genocidal acts in.
1188
01:03:10.780 --> 01:03:11.380
A civil war.
1189
01:03:11.659 --> 01:03:17.449
They're propping up Mohammed Deby in Chad, another questionable leader.
1190
01:03:17.789 --> 01:03:20.010
And I think that what's happened in Africa.
1191
01:03:19.769 --> 01:03:23.269
Actually is it's the biggest geopolitical change in terms of
1192
01:03:23.530 --> 01:03:28.429
influence in African countries that we've seen since China came
1193
01:03:28.530 --> 01:03:32.079
in and started to eat the West's lunch a little
1194
01:03:32.119 --> 01:03:35.199
bit in its relations with Africa. So I just want
1195
01:03:35.219 --> 01:03:37.400
to put sort of an overarching point on that, which
1196
01:03:37.500 --> 01:03:40.820
is that I feel like the UAE is one of
1197
01:03:40.860 --> 01:03:45.010
the most nefarious actors on the world stage at the moment,
1198
01:03:45.090 --> 01:03:46.670
diplomatically and militarily.
1199
01:03:47.309 --> 01:03:48.989
It slips under the radar.
1200
01:03:49.449 --> 01:03:52.079
And I think this is another example of the British
1201
01:03:52.119 --> 01:03:58.909
government staying close and staying quiet to a rogue state
1202
01:03:59.769 --> 01:04:02.289
in the same way as it does with Israel. I mean,
1203
01:04:02.369 --> 01:04:05.090
the UAE's actions in the world are getting so extreme.
1204
01:04:05.429 --> 01:04:09.349
They're not at the Israeli level. But conceptually, you know,
1205
01:04:09.849 --> 01:04:12.909
it's another rogue state that the British government will allow
1206
01:04:12.969 --> 01:04:15.409
to do anything as long as it can maintain its
1207
01:04:15.449 --> 01:04:16.219
relationship with it.
1208
01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:18.400
I want to pick up on that kind of comparison
1209
01:04:18.420 --> 01:04:21.619
with Israel there. You're talking about the links between Islamophobes
1210
01:04:21.659 --> 01:04:24.840
in the UK and the UAE in terms of sharing
1211
01:04:24.880 --> 01:04:26.820
support and things like that. Of course, there was a
1212
01:04:26.860 --> 01:04:29.989
statement made by somebody, on account of a Hasbro minister
1213
01:04:30.159 --> 01:04:33.769
in Israel, talking about how, well, Europeans don't care about anti-Semitism,
1214
01:04:34.070 --> 01:04:37.309
but they do care about Islamophobia. So they're pushing Islamophobia,
1215
01:04:37.369 --> 01:04:41.070
Israel are, in terms of European politics. They're essentially trying
1216
01:04:41.090 --> 01:04:45.019
to sow societal discord to move Europe forward. closer towards
1217
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:47.440
Israel and of course that's very similar to the kind
1218
01:04:47.480 --> 01:04:49.619
of tactics that the UAE are doing there as well
1219
01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:53.070
in trying to evoke kind of a moral panic about
1220
01:04:53.110 --> 01:04:55.469
the Muslim Brotherhood to try and get support for the
1221
01:04:55.590 --> 01:04:59.570
UAE as well for loads of different reasons too and
1222
01:04:59.630 --> 01:05:01.250
Israel and the UAE are now linked by the Abraham
1223
01:05:01.289 --> 01:05:04.090
Accords they actually have a really kind of cordial relationship
1224
01:05:04.150 --> 01:05:07.989
now And we're seeing broader destabilization in countries across, not
1225
01:05:08.010 --> 01:05:09.989
just North of Africa and the Horn of Africa, but
1226
01:05:10.050 --> 01:05:12.489
also in the Gulf as well, too. So in that
1227
01:05:12.530 --> 01:05:15.989
Tommy Robinson tweet, he mentions two governors of Yemen, which
1228
01:05:16.050 --> 01:05:18.969
is Hadjibut and al-Mahra. And those two places were places
1229
01:05:19.010 --> 01:05:21.280
that were coveted by the UAE in terms of supporting
1230
01:05:21.679 --> 01:05:26.380
the STC, who were a third paramilitary organization in the
1231
01:05:26.400 --> 01:05:29.539
Yemen civil war, there to be able to bog down
1232
01:05:29.820 --> 01:05:32.159
the Saudi efforts to try and deal with the Houthis,
1233
01:05:32.199 --> 01:05:34.179
try and turn it into a more of a kind
1234
01:05:34.199 --> 01:05:37.139
of a, a more long-term conflict to make sure that
1235
01:05:37.159 --> 01:05:39.829
the Saudis didn't spend time trying to gain influence in
1236
01:05:39.849 --> 01:05:42.269
the region, influence in the whole of Africa, who is, again,
1237
01:05:42.309 --> 01:05:44.170
one of the other parties that are involved here in
1238
01:05:44.210 --> 01:05:48.550
trying to maintain that kind of level of regional power broker, right?
1239
01:05:49.869 --> 01:05:53.429
And that is propaganda that's being spread. It seems to be,
1240
01:05:53.530 --> 01:05:56.920
I can't confirm that or quash that, but it seems
1241
01:05:56.960 --> 01:05:58.460
to be the case if we're seeing these kind of
1242
01:05:58.480 --> 01:06:01.500
tweets coming out from Tommy Robinson, in the interests of
1243
01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:05.440
what is essentially a fight for, UAE and Israeli domination
1244
01:06:05.480 --> 01:06:06.039
over that region.
1245
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:07.860
Yeah, absolutely. You nailed it.
1246
01:06:08.199 --> 01:06:13.869
And, you know, the Yemen story is most often portrayed,
1247
01:06:13.909 --> 01:06:17.969
I mean, partly rightly, as a power struggle between Iran
1248
01:06:18.250 --> 01:06:18.969
and the Saudis.
1249
01:06:19.329 --> 01:06:20.989
But the UAE is all over it too.
1250
01:06:21.139 --> 01:06:22.880
And the UAE has been all over it for a
1251
01:06:22.920 --> 01:06:28.420
long time. And UAE-Saudi competition has played out in Yemen
1252
01:06:28.739 --> 01:06:32.460
significantly and continues to play out in Yemen significantly, which is.
1253
01:06:32.440 --> 01:06:35.719
Probably why they... allegedly.
1254
01:06:35.659 --> 01:06:40.079
Maybe wanted Tommy Robinson to send that weirdly detailed tweet
1255
01:06:40.159 --> 01:06:43.699
about Yemen. But of course, the competition for influence in
1256
01:06:43.739 --> 01:06:49.260
Yemen is intimately related to the competition for influence in
1257
01:06:49.280 --> 01:06:54.250
the Horn, right? Because they're all very sort of close geographically.
1258
01:06:54.289 --> 01:06:56.710
And the key point is the ports. The key point
1259
01:06:56.789 --> 01:07:00.010
is the Red Sea ports. You know, competition for Red
1260
01:07:00.050 --> 01:07:06.539
Sea port access has just exploded in recent years, exploded.
1261
01:07:06.659 --> 01:07:08.940
And I think it's only going to become more and
1262
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:09.840
more fierce.
1263
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:11.900
I mean, when we look at what the UAE is
1264
01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:14.739
doing in Sudan and supporting the RSF, I mean, there
1265
01:07:14.780 --> 01:07:18.500
are several reasons why they're supporting the RSF. I mean,
1266
01:07:18.579 --> 01:07:20.980
gold is a huge one. You know, they're already taking
1267
01:07:21.019 --> 01:07:23.599
gold out of Sudan. I mean, they're not waiting for
1268
01:07:23.619 --> 01:07:26.099
the RSF to get into power. They're already pulling all
1269
01:07:26.139 --> 01:07:29.780
the gold out. I mean, there was actually essentially an
1270
01:07:29.960 --> 01:07:33.889
RSF heist on a gold mine at some point in
1271
01:07:33.909 --> 01:07:37.489
the early days of the war where they essentially launched
1272
01:07:37.550 --> 01:07:40.090
a heist on a gold mine controlled by the government,
1273
01:07:40.110 --> 01:07:42.969
stole about $ 100 million worth of gold. And it's well
1274
01:07:43.010 --> 01:07:45.150
reported where that gold went. It went out on planes
1275
01:07:45.190 --> 01:07:48.199
to the UAE. So the UAE is involved effectively in
1276
01:07:48.380 --> 01:07:52.079
stealing gold from Sudan. So there's that, there's agriculture, but
1277
01:07:52.099 --> 01:07:56.099
there's also the big prize, the big glittering jewel, which
1278
01:07:56.579 --> 01:07:59.820
is access to Port Sudan. And so I think that
1279
01:08:00.219 --> 01:08:03.869
the port question is going to become a massive thing. And,
1280
01:08:03.889 --> 01:08:05.969
you know, when you look at your point about Israel
1281
01:08:06.269 --> 01:08:11.090
and the UAE being in lockstep in this, again, colonial project,
1282
01:08:11.449 --> 01:08:14.380
to gain influence over the Horn, over Yemen, over the
1283
01:08:14.409 --> 01:08:14.840
Red Sea.
1284
01:08:15.110 --> 01:08:16.260
Also look at Somaliland.
1285
01:08:17.000 --> 01:08:23.020
Somaliland is a breakaway region of Somalia that Somalia doesn't
1286
01:08:23.060 --> 01:08:27.100
recognize as an independent state. In fact, nobody recognized as
1287
01:08:27.140 --> 01:08:29.880
an independent state for a very, very long time. despite
1288
01:08:29.899 --> 01:08:33.020
the fact that it has effectively been functioning as an
1289
01:08:33.060 --> 01:08:33.859
independent state.
1290
01:08:33.739 --> 01:08:37.149
And functioning quite successfully as an independent state.
1291
01:08:38.350 --> 01:08:43.010
You know, a mostly functioning democracy since it broke away
1292
01:08:43.050 --> 01:08:46.529
from Somalia also. And no country in the world had
1293
01:08:46.670 --> 01:08:51.270
officially recognized Somaliland until very recently when Israel did.
1294
01:08:51.770 --> 01:08:53.510
So Israel has recognized Somaliland.
1295
01:08:54.340 --> 01:08:58.590
But also the UAE is intimately involved in Somaliland and
1296
01:08:58.649 --> 01:09:03.619
is building very deep financial links with Somaliland and has
1297
01:09:03.800 --> 01:09:06.119
access to Somaliland's port.
1298
01:09:06.460 --> 01:09:09.079
So yes, it's a.
1299
01:09:09.100 --> 01:09:12.729
Fight for regional dominance. I think it's only going to
1300
01:09:12.770 --> 01:09:17.789
get more intense. The UAE is in lockstep with Israel,
1301
01:09:17.989 --> 01:09:20.270
which I would contend are both rogue states, and they're
1302
01:09:20.329 --> 01:09:22.510
both rogue states who the UK government seems in.
1303
01:09:23.090 --> 01:09:24.609
seems intent on letting.
1304
01:09:24.369 --> 01:09:26.380
Get away with anything as long as they stay cozy
1305
01:09:26.420 --> 01:09:26.859
to the UK.
1306
01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.600
And ultimately, I think that the way in which they're
1307
01:09:29.619 --> 01:09:32.699
gathering their power is through destabilization. Like one of the
1308
01:09:32.739 --> 01:09:35.939
main kind of tenets of current nation states in Africa
1309
01:09:36.300 --> 01:09:39.380
is that no one countenances any kind of border changes
1310
01:09:39.420 --> 01:09:42.060
given the history of conflict in the region, right? That's
1311
01:09:42.079 --> 01:09:45.100
been the biggest reason why Samar Land has never been recognized.
1312
01:09:45.399 --> 01:09:49.689
If it's all the Montevideo stipulations for a new state,
1313
01:09:49.869 --> 01:09:51.609
but no one wants to change the borders of Africa
1314
01:09:51.649 --> 01:09:53.510
because of what happens if you unleash that can of worms.
1315
01:09:53.789 --> 01:09:55.909
We see destabilization in Yemen. We see it in Sudan.
1316
01:09:56.189 --> 01:09:56.789
We see Egypt.
1317
01:09:56.970 --> 01:09:59.210
They're not doing anything particularly strong at the moment. That's
1318
01:09:59.510 --> 01:10:01.970
not a particularly stable country. Now we're seeing destabilization in Syria,
1319
01:10:02.229 --> 01:10:06.149
destabilization in Lebanon. It's all happening around so that all
1320
01:10:06.170 --> 01:10:07.689
the other countries are having no time to be able
1321
01:10:07.729 --> 01:10:10.489
to gain a foothold whilst the UAE and Israel, with
1322
01:10:10.560 --> 01:10:14.199
Western money and Western support, continue to gain power and prominence.
1323
01:10:14.479 --> 01:10:17.720
And that has been incredibly... It's going to be very.
1324
01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:21.659
Unstable region of the world, even more so than it
1325
01:10:21.680 --> 01:10:23.560
has been up until now. Thank you very much, Barry,
1326
01:10:23.579 --> 01:10:24.239
for joining me tonight.
1327
01:10:24.550 --> 01:10:25.109
Thanks, Elena.
1328
01:10:25.989 --> 01:10:27.869
Absolute pleasure, as always. And thank you, everyone at home,
1329
01:10:27.890 --> 01:10:30.329
for tuning in too. Come back tomorrow for another live
1330
01:10:30.350 --> 01:10:33.000
stream from 6pm. For now, you've been watching Novara Media.
1331
01:10:33.239 --> 01:10:33.539
Good night.