Guest Host Anna & Kore Interviews Elizabeth Clemants

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.600 --> 00:00:03.680
Welcome to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
2
00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.839
I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
3
00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.039
those who've been impacted by trauma. A big thank you
4
00:00:11.080 --> 00:00:15.599
to our sponsors and our guests who are supporting this show. Hello.
5
00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.440
Everyone, We're delighted to be guest hosts for this Trauma
6
00:00:19.519 --> 00:00:23.120
Therapist podcast. We want to thank Guy for inviting us
7
00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:28.239
to take part in this series. I'm Anna White and
8
00:00:28.320 --> 00:00:33.399
I'm here with my professional partner, clinical psychologist, doctor Corey Glead.
9
00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:37.600
Corey and I started a mental health project four years ago.
10
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:41.280
It's called the Type see Personality. And this is actually
11
00:00:41.640 --> 00:00:45.560
the third time we've been on this particular podcast, the
12
00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:48.439
first time as guests and this is our second time
13
00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:50.039
as guest hosts.
14
00:00:51.520 --> 00:00:53.840
So for those listeners who don't know about the Type
15
00:00:53.880 --> 00:00:57.560
See project, Type CEE is a personality that is defined
16
00:00:57.640 --> 00:01:02.840
by an extreme need to please other people. Sorry, let
17
00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:05.480
me start that over because something okay. For those listeners
18
00:01:05.519 --> 00:01:08.280
who don't know about Type C, it's a personality defined
19
00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:12.159
by an extreme need to please other people, having extreme
20
00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.760
difficulty in feeling like you're worried about disappointing or letting
21
00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:16.640
other people down.
22
00:01:17.040 --> 00:01:18.519
Type sees avoid.
23
00:01:18.200 --> 00:01:22.879
Conflict at all costs and often feel disconnected from their emotions.
24
00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:24.480
They suppress a lot.
25
00:01:25.079 --> 00:01:28.200
Usually there were some dark forces in childhood that created
26
00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:32.519
type se trace. Often it was from some form of emotional, physical,
27
00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:35.359
or sexual abuse. Something bad happened in some way that
28
00:01:35.480 --> 00:01:38.599
led type cs to believe that their needs didn't matter
29
00:01:38.680 --> 00:01:43.359
and don't matter, that they really are lesser than This
30
00:01:43.439 --> 00:01:46.519
could have been outright physical abuse. There was a lot
31
00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:48.040
of ways that this can develop.
32
00:01:50.280 --> 00:01:53.159
So we've explored a lot of these type see roots
33
00:01:53.200 --> 00:01:57.120
on our own podcasts that today we're going to talk
34
00:01:57.120 --> 00:02:01.719
about sexual abuse and we are excited to have Elizabeth
35
00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:07.000
Clements as our guest. She is an expert on this topic.
36
00:02:07.879 --> 00:02:10.719
A little bit about Elizabeth. She wears a lot of
37
00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.599
different hats. She is a mediator, a conflict resolution trainer,
38
00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:19.120
and a shaman, which is how I was first introduced
39
00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:22.280
to her. Today, we're going to talk about an organization
40
00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:25.439
that she founded is called Hidden Water. It's a nonprofit
41
00:02:25.960 --> 00:02:30.800
and it uses a restorative justice model to work through
42
00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:36.319
child sexual abuse and the conflict that results in families.
43
00:02:37.319 --> 00:02:40.120
So this is obviously a very heavy and difficult topic,
44
00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:42.639
but we really feel it's a very important one. So
45
00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.319
we just want to caution anyone who has been a
46
00:02:45.400 --> 00:02:48.800
victim of any childhood physical or sexual abuse that this
47
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:51.039
episode could be a bit triggering, but we hope you'll
48
00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.479
stick around because we do think that it's very important. So,
49
00:02:54.719 --> 00:02:58.479
first and foremost, thank you so much Elizabeth for coming
50
00:02:58.520 --> 00:03:03.719
on the podcast together our guests. We are are very
51
00:03:03.719 --> 00:03:05.879
happy to have you here today. So we wanted to
52
00:03:05.919 --> 00:03:11.319
talk briefly. We wanted to just talk about about hidden water.
53
00:03:11.520 --> 00:03:14.439
What is it, how does it work, and what led
54
00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:15.280
you to found it?
55
00:03:17.039 --> 00:03:19.400
Yeah, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it.
56
00:03:21.120 --> 00:03:25.319
I found it. So I was running the community mediation
57
00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:28.800
center in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and we would get lots
58
00:03:28.840 --> 00:03:32.599
and lots of cases where you know, neighbor disputes or
59
00:03:32.719 --> 00:03:36.919
family disputes or you know, maybe even criminal disputes. Hous
60
00:03:36.960 --> 00:03:41.000
it certainly housing conflicts, and so often we would get
61
00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.199
to the bottom, you know, get into the conflict, the
62
00:03:43.280 --> 00:03:46.120
concrete part, and if you stayed in it long enough,
63
00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:49.800
you'd kind of come upon a child sexual abuse situation
64
00:03:50.199 --> 00:03:54.759
from maybe decades earlier. But that how that dynamic from
65
00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:59.520
way back having been unaddressed, was causing current day conflicts
66
00:03:59.520 --> 00:04:04.039
among the adults, and I realized, you know, sometimes we
67
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:07.000
would have very direct conflicts about that, you know, foster
68
00:04:07.120 --> 00:04:10.199
mom and the kid against the mom who was harmed
69
00:04:10.199 --> 00:04:12.919
by the stepdad kind of thing. But a lot of
70
00:04:12.919 --> 00:04:17.800
times it was just housing disputes, you know, our you know,
71
00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:21.399
financial disputes or different types of things. And so that
72
00:04:22.079 --> 00:04:25.720
I realized this is not a great venue for discussing
73
00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:28.839
that in this mediation that's supposedly about this sort of
74
00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:33.399
concrete issue, but really all this stuff was underneath it,
75
00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:37.680
and a different concrete issue would just keep emerging, you know,
76
00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:41.560
because you're not really addressing the underneath. So that is
77
00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:45.079
what led me to look for a different process that
78
00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.800
would be able to actually directly address the child sexual
79
00:04:48.800 --> 00:04:53.759
abuse history, and oftentimes families have generations of that, and
80
00:04:53.879 --> 00:04:57.360
so I found Restorative Justice and started Hidden Water in
81
00:04:58.079 --> 00:04:59.920
you know, our first circles were in two thousand and six,
82
00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.199
and we started to see that, you know, I started
83
00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.800
to realize even in the mediation that like one person
84
00:05:06.800 --> 00:05:09.920
against the other is not a great way to address
85
00:05:09.959 --> 00:05:13.079
this because it's actually a systemic issue. Often you know,
86
00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:15.079
either in the family on the family level or in
87
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.240
the community level, and you can't really address it, you know,
88
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:23.079
just letting those concrete conflicts bubble to the surface. You
89
00:05:23.160 --> 00:05:25.040
have to really get under it, and you can't do
90
00:05:25.160 --> 00:05:27.480
it the way the court does it, like this person
91
00:05:27.519 --> 00:05:30.399
against that person, because you're not really getting to the
92
00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:34.160
impact that happens to all people, whether you're the offender
93
00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:37.120
or the victim. All the people that are sort of
94
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:42.079
in the blast radius I sometimes say, are impacted, you know, indirectly,
95
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:48.759
but impacted, and they also perpetuate the dynamic going forward.
96
00:05:48.360 --> 00:05:53.240
Are people willing to participate in this process? It seems
97
00:05:53.279 --> 00:05:56.759
like the victim, of course, would want to be able
98
00:05:56.800 --> 00:06:01.079
to address these issues, but the perpetrate or I would think,
99
00:06:01.079 --> 00:06:03.279
would have a really hard time coming to the table,
100
00:06:03.319 --> 00:06:05.720
and maybe the other people that enabled it. So can
101
00:06:05.759 --> 00:06:08.000
you just maybe talk a little bit about that and
102
00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:10.439
how you can get everybody involved?
103
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:11.959
Right?
104
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.759
So, we initially, or at least my idea initially was
105
00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.480
to bring the whole family together, but then we realized
106
00:06:17.519 --> 00:06:20.920
that so much work, internal work has to be done
107
00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.079
before you're even going to be able to have a
108
00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.759
conversation inside the family system. That that sort of next level,
109
00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:29.959
that's like the advanced glass, and so we set up
110
00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.279
circles for people who were harmed under the age of
111
00:06:33.319 --> 00:06:36.839
twenty five, people who cause harm to someone under the
112
00:06:36.879 --> 00:06:40.439
age of twenty five, the non offending caregivers or parents,
113
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.680
and then the other people other loved ones, which are
114
00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:47.160
usually spouses, you know, who weren't around when it happened,
115
00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:51.079
but they're certainly in the blast radius. Now other siblings
116
00:06:51.079 --> 00:06:53.480
who may not have been harmed, or adult children who
117
00:06:53.560 --> 00:06:56.600
are being impacted by their parents not having dealt with us.
118
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.920
So we have these four different groups do circles with
119
00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.519
them alone so that they get the support and they
120
00:07:04.519 --> 00:07:07.959
get the understanding and they can sort of explore how
121
00:07:08.040 --> 00:07:10.480
this event impacted them, you know. So a lot of
122
00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.319
times the non offending parents or other loved ones show
123
00:07:13.399 --> 00:07:16.399
up to say what can I do for the victim right?
124
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:20.240
Or what can I do if my child calls harm?
125
00:07:20.879 --> 00:07:23.439
But it's really about how did it impact you? How
126
00:07:23.519 --> 00:07:26.439
is it impacting you today? Like how where are you
127
00:07:26.959 --> 00:07:32.439
being a negatively changed by this and how are you
128
00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:35.160
playing in in ways that are negatively impacting other people?
129
00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:37.920
So it's really about like that internal work. And then
130
00:07:37.959 --> 00:07:40.279
we find that if each person in a family, not
131
00:07:40.399 --> 00:07:42.240
each person. It could just be two people in a
132
00:07:42.279 --> 00:07:47.439
family system three for do this work. The system changes
133
00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:50.759
even if you don't put them all together. But I
134
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:52.480
do want to say one thing about like, we don't
135
00:07:52.560 --> 00:07:54.680
use that word perpetrator. We say you know a person
136
00:07:54.720 --> 00:07:57.680
who calls harm in part because over fifty percent of
137
00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:01.240
people who cause harm caused it when they were also miners,
138
00:08:01.759 --> 00:08:04.319
and they do not only like two percent or three
139
00:08:04.360 --> 00:08:06.800
percent of the cases do those people grow up to
140
00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.160
harm sexually as adults.
141
00:08:08.480 --> 00:08:09.160
So there is a.
142
00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.120
Huge, huge, huge group of people who harmed as children
143
00:08:12.439 --> 00:08:15.319
are not at risk of harming in adulthood. They want
144
00:08:15.360 --> 00:08:18.040
and they're usually have harmed you know, their cousin or
145
00:08:18.040 --> 00:08:21.680
their sibling, somebody like that, and they are desperate to
146
00:08:22.040 --> 00:08:25.360
repair and they want they want any way to be
147
00:08:25.480 --> 00:08:30.279
able to repair, and they need to be supported because
148
00:08:30.399 --> 00:08:32.759
it's not an easy it's not an easy path to
149
00:08:32.840 --> 00:08:37.440
walk to figure out how to be accountable and make
150
00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.360
amends to somebody you love who probably loves you too,
151
00:08:41.360 --> 00:08:44.200
and so not that we you know, most of the
152
00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:45.440
people who come to Hidden.
153
00:08:45.159 --> 00:08:48.120
Water are the people who are harmed, that's for sure.
154
00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.960
But they that seems like a given to me because
155
00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:53.279
they always have to do their work or they're not
156
00:08:53.320 --> 00:08:56.600
going to make it, you know. But so often the
157
00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:59.799
rest of the people in the family system want a
158
00:08:59.799 --> 00:09:02.159
part anticipate, but there aren't a lot of places for
159
00:09:02.279 --> 00:09:04.600
them to know how to do that. And so we
160
00:09:04.679 --> 00:09:08.840
have two hundred people on our waiting list at every season,
161
00:09:09.039 --> 00:09:13.080
and so it's not an issue of like we can't
162
00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:14.960
give people to come to the table, we don't have
163
00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.039
enough resources to serve all the people that want to
164
00:09:18.039 --> 00:09:18.840
come to the table.
165
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.720
Wow, this is just so amazing to hear you say.
166
00:09:22.759 --> 00:09:27.559
So the beginning of my career I actually did. I worked.
167
00:09:29.240 --> 00:09:31.720
With ADULTSOO childhood physical and sexual abuse, and then went
168
00:09:31.759 --> 00:09:34.879
on to work in New York City hospitals and predominantly
169
00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:36.960
a Medicaid population for fifteen years.
170
00:09:37.039 --> 00:09:39.120
And there's just a lot of trauma.
171
00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:43.759
And I think what you're talking about is so important
172
00:09:43.759 --> 00:09:50.240
because obviously the act of trauma is extremely you know,
173
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.240
influential in a person's life, but it's also a family
174
00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:58.519
member who you may have wanted to talk to and
175
00:09:58.679 --> 00:10:03.320
did talk to, and how that experience was went went down.
176
00:10:03.399 --> 00:10:07.200
Basically that can almost make the trauma just as challenging
177
00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.120
because a lot of times things were brushed on the
178
00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:13.840
rug or family members didn't know how to respond, and
179
00:10:13.840 --> 00:10:19.799
that invalidating environment really exacerbates the traumatic response. And so
180
00:10:20.480 --> 00:10:27.240
I think that providing an environment where families are coming together,
181
00:10:27.600 --> 00:10:31.039
maybe not the person, what was the language you use?
182
00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:35.080
The person, the person who caused harm, the person aparts harm.
183
00:10:35.240 --> 00:10:37.720
You know, maybe they're not always, you know, depending on
184
00:10:37.759 --> 00:10:41.360
the situation, able or willing to be present. But I
185
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.919
think there are so many family members who don't know
186
00:10:43.960 --> 00:10:46.279
the language, don't know what to say, don't really know,
187
00:10:46.480 --> 00:10:50.840
they feel guilty themselves and don't know how to support
188
00:10:50.879 --> 00:10:54.559
this other person. So you're you're, You've talked a lot
189
00:10:54.639 --> 00:10:56.480
about this, but I would actually just love to hear
190
00:10:56.519 --> 00:10:59.320
a little bit more specifics, like what does this look like?
191
00:11:00.720 --> 00:11:03.399
Is it virtual? Is it in person? Where are you?
192
00:11:03.480 --> 00:11:03.559
Like?
193
00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:04.639
What is this circle?
194
00:11:04.759 --> 00:11:07.639
Can you talk a little bit more about the details,
195
00:11:07.639 --> 00:11:08.840
like what would this look like?
196
00:11:10.399 --> 00:11:11.639
Yeah, so it hidden?
197
00:11:11.720 --> 00:11:14.720
Or do we have a twelve week We call it
198
00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:18.120
a season and the circle meets for an hour and
199
00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:20.759
a half once a week and it's all virtual, almost
200
00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:26.639
all virtual. Since COVID, we pushed everything online, partly because
201
00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:29.159
people who've been harmed might show up in New York
202
00:11:29.200 --> 00:11:32.000
City in person, but their family members are all over
203
00:11:32.039 --> 00:11:34.519
the world, you know, because it's very common to move
204
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:37.200
away from a family when you have that kind of dysfunction,
205
00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:40.200
and so we've always had to be online. So it's
206
00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:44.200
pretty easy to be online, and there's you know, there's
207
00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:47.039
other benefits that we realize. So it's eight people who
208
00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:51.600
all identify with that experience, not people that know each other.
209
00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:55.080
And so, you know, let's just take non offending parents
210
00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:59.080
for example. They come to this circle, there's eight of them.
211
00:11:59.559 --> 00:12:00.519
They may be the.
212
00:12:00.519 --> 00:12:03.159
Parent of someone who was harmed, someone who cause harm,
213
00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:05.519
or both because of very common for a sibling to
214
00:12:05.559 --> 00:12:09.679
harm a sibling, and they sit with other parents who
215
00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:14.440
have that same circumstance and they're you know, what you
216
00:12:14.559 --> 00:12:16.440
said is absolutely right. I just want to go on
217
00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:20.159
a little tangent here, which is that so many adults
218
00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:22.519
look back and they say, I don't even care about
219
00:12:22.519 --> 00:12:24.480
the person who harm me, especially if they're outside of
220
00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:26.879
the family. It's like, I don't even care about that.
221
00:12:26.960 --> 00:12:29.639
I care that my mom believes me, or you know,
222
00:12:29.720 --> 00:12:32.840
something like that. And so the real harm over time,
223
00:12:33.039 --> 00:12:35.879
not the real harm, but this secondary harm over time
224
00:12:36.559 --> 00:12:40.200
is the way the family shows up and they and
225
00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:43.519
I used to feel very contemptuous about that, having coming
226
00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:46.159
from a five generations of child sectribues of my family,
227
00:12:46.559 --> 00:12:48.639
I used to feel like, why don't these parents show
228
00:12:48.679 --> 00:12:51.279
up like this? But actually, why would they know how
229
00:12:51.360 --> 00:12:54.399
to No one has ever taught anyone.
230
00:12:54.320 --> 00:12:56.120
On a societal level, on.
231
00:12:56.039 --> 00:12:59.639
A you know, school community level, on a family level,
232
00:12:59.639 --> 00:13:01.919
on a person a little no one has ever explained
233
00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:04.679
how to deal with this. So everyone just says, just
234
00:13:04.720 --> 00:13:06.440
don't talk about it, brush it under the rug.
235
00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:07.360
And tell people to forgive.
236
00:13:09.440 --> 00:13:12.120
And so these twelve week circles all have a curriculum
237
00:13:12.240 --> 00:13:14.720
and you go around three times, everyone gets to speak.
238
00:13:14.919 --> 00:13:18.080
There is no therapist, there is no social worker. There's
239
00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:21.440
just people who have that as a personal experience, and
240
00:13:21.440 --> 00:13:25.120
we've trained them to run the curriculum and we start
241
00:13:25.200 --> 00:13:29.320
to unpack whatever the issue is depends. You know, there's
242
00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:31.879
sort of common issues in each of the four groupings,
243
00:13:33.639 --> 00:13:37.000
and we just start to unpack. Like non offending parents
244
00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:39.080
are often saying, like, just tell me how to fix it,
245
00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:40.799
Just tell me what hoop to jump through. It's like
246
00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.519
that there is no hoop to jump through, and you
247
00:13:42.519 --> 00:13:45.480
can't fix it. But what can you do? You know,
248
00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.440
And so there's there's sort of that unpacking of your
249
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:52.919
own personal experience until you sort of come to this
250
00:13:53.000 --> 00:13:55.200
place where you realize, oh, okay, I know what's my
251
00:13:55.360 --> 00:13:57.840
role and how I should show up, what's not my role,
252
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:00.360
and how I shouldn't show up. And then they just
253
00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:03.679
go back into the family and start, you know, responding differently,
254
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:06.279
and that makes a big difference. So I don't know
255
00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.559
if I answered your question, but there's eight people in
256
00:14:08.639 --> 00:14:12.600
a grouping for twelve weeks an hour and a half,
257
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:15.639
and we had a curriculum, and that when we do
258
00:14:15.720 --> 00:14:19.039
that season twice a year, I would.
259
00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:21.759
Just be interested if it's not too challenging, just to
260
00:14:21.879 --> 00:14:27.759
briefly mention, like, are there overall topics that get addressed
261
00:14:27.919 --> 00:14:28.840
in the curriculum?
262
00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:31.240
You know? Is it almost like a table of contents?
263
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.480
Is there are there some bigger, broader topics that you
264
00:14:34.519 --> 00:14:36.320
address during those weeks?
265
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.000
Yeah, so I can give you like the quick overview
266
00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.360
of the first week we do you know, what we
267
00:14:42.399 --> 00:14:45.399
can call container building. You know, we're introducing ourselves, we're
268
00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:47.759
getting to know each other. The second week we talk
269
00:14:47.840 --> 00:14:51.559
about what are sort of our group norms and guidelines
270
00:14:51.600 --> 00:14:54.080
for how we want to interact with one another. And
271
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:56.440
then I am in my book that I wrote, there's
272
00:14:56.480 --> 00:14:59.200
the pasty Healing from Harm, which is like the core
273
00:14:59.279 --> 00:15:04.639
curriculum for Hidden Water, and we explain the you know,
274
00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:06.519
the sort of we call it the Paths of Healing
275
00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:10.360
from Harm, and it's three phases, and we try to
276
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:12.960
start to identify where we are, and you're on you know,
277
00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:15.559
it's not linear, of course, but it's it's sort of
278
00:15:15.559 --> 00:15:20.440
a grounding framework for sort of understanding what are these
279
00:15:20.480 --> 00:15:23.279
different phases that we kind of bounce around in and
280
00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.720
just accepting all three phases, but knowing that you're trying
281
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:29.159
to move in this direction, not stay stuck in the
282
00:15:29.159 --> 00:15:32.639
first one. And then the rest of the weeks, each
283
00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:36.759
person takes a turn to talk for ten minutes about
284
00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:40.519
this one question we ask, which is what is the
285
00:15:40.639 --> 00:15:43.879
edge of your healing? And we realize that, like, you
286
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:46.919
don't have to just regurgitate the harm story over and
287
00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:50.200
over again. You actually have to say, in what way
288
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:53.360
today is that harm that happened to me or in
289
00:15:53.399 --> 00:15:56.519
my family or I cause impacting my life right now?
290
00:15:57.360 --> 00:15:59.720
And so you know, for some people that's addiction. For
291
00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:04.879
some people, that's people pleasing, caretaking, you know, dissociating, having
292
00:16:04.919 --> 00:16:08.240
conflict with everyone, not having conflict with anyone, you know,
293
00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:11.519
like all the ways in which those symptoms that grew
294
00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.919
out of the harm are playing out and disorienting your
295
00:16:14.919 --> 00:16:17.600
life right now. And so some people do want to
296
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:21.000
tell the story, but that's not the question. The question
297
00:16:21.159 --> 00:16:23.279
is like, how do you see it in current day
298
00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:28.960
wreaking havoc on your life or on your relationships. And
299
00:16:29.000 --> 00:16:31.480
so then each person has a chance to take a
300
00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.320
week and kind of do a deeper dive into what
301
00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:36.679
that is for them. And we always say that like,
302
00:16:36.720 --> 00:16:40.120
you're not healing from talking, you're actually healing from listening.
303
00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:43.399
And so when somebody shows up to do what we
304
00:16:43.480 --> 00:16:47.440
called their share and you hear yourself in their share,
305
00:16:47.919 --> 00:16:50.639
that's when you start to feel less isolated, less alone.
306
00:16:50.720 --> 00:16:53.559
You realize things that might have taken you one hundred
307
00:16:53.639 --> 00:16:56.279
years in therapy to realize, but that person came up
308
00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:57.960
with it and you were like, oh, I would have
309
00:16:58.000 --> 00:17:00.879
never thought of that, But that's me too, you know.
310
00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.640
And so it seems that the group dynamic is what
311
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:09.359
is healing, not, you know, because there's so much isolation
312
00:17:09.480 --> 00:17:12.240
in child sexual abuse, and so to hear yourself reflected
313
00:17:12.240 --> 00:17:16.519
in someone else's different story is very healing.
314
00:17:16.720 --> 00:17:25.400
Yeah, you mentioned forgiveness, and we've been writing a book
315
00:17:25.400 --> 00:17:29.640
about type SE and we did a little bit about forgiveness,
316
00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:32.400
and it's a kind of a complicated topic.
317
00:17:32.920 --> 00:17:36.039
So I'm very curious on like, how do you think
318
00:17:36.039 --> 00:17:38.839
about forgiveness when it comes to child sex abuse.
319
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.440
Yeah, I'm surprised I mentioned it because we always say
320
00:17:42.440 --> 00:17:47.400
in Hendwater's forgiveness is a swear word, you know, because
321
00:17:47.400 --> 00:17:50.680
it gets so weaponized by that other people in the family.
322
00:17:50.920 --> 00:17:53.160
Like I've said, I'm sorry so many times. I was
323
00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:56.359
a kid too. Why can't you just forgive? Or God
324
00:17:56.440 --> 00:17:59.400
teaches us to forgive, or you know, like a lot
325
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.480
of the people in the systems think if you could
326
00:18:01.519 --> 00:18:03.839
just forgive, we could all go back to normal, right,
327
00:18:04.039 --> 00:18:06.480
And so that's why we say forgiveness is a for word,
328
00:18:06.559 --> 00:18:11.279
because it's not really forgiveness. It's like we want you
329
00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:14.319
to stop talking about this so we can stop having.
330
00:18:14.160 --> 00:18:17.160
To worry about it kind of thing. But of course
331
00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:18.599
that's not how healing works.
332
00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:19.119
And so.
333
00:18:20.839 --> 00:18:22.839
You know, we we spend a fair amount of time
334
00:18:23.480 --> 00:18:26.039
in the other circles, not the not the one with
335
00:18:26.079 --> 00:18:28.759
the victims, but the other one's saying forgiveness is not
336
00:18:28.839 --> 00:18:32.400
the end goal, Like the person who is harmed, thriving
337
00:18:32.440 --> 00:18:34.279
in their life and the way they want is the
338
00:18:34.359 --> 00:18:38.000
end goal. And that may for some people be you know,
339
00:18:38.119 --> 00:18:42.200
reconciling with their siblings that harm them. It also may
340
00:18:42.240 --> 00:18:45.720
be like going to court and finally taking that stepfather,
341
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:50.319
you know, to account in a legal system. It may
342
00:18:50.359 --> 00:18:52.920
be saying I'm never you know, I will not be
343
00:18:52.960 --> 00:18:55.519
going to family events with that uncle or that aunt
344
00:18:55.680 --> 00:18:56.839
or that grandparent.
345
00:18:57.440 --> 00:18:58.160
Uh, you know.
346
00:18:58.240 --> 00:19:00.279
So it's really about what do you What is the
347
00:19:00.319 --> 00:19:02.720
person who is harm need and how can the rest
348
00:19:02.720 --> 00:19:05.279
of the people support that so they can thrive. It's
349
00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:08.440
not really about forgiveness. And the other thing we always
350
00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:11.640
say about forgiveness is forgiveness finds you. It's you don't
351
00:19:11.640 --> 00:19:14.920
idea have to decide that you forgive. You could say, okay, fine,
352
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.920
I forgive you, But if you're still feeling resentful, you're
353
00:19:17.920 --> 00:19:21.480
still getting triggered, and you're still feeling unseen, then you
354
00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.119
probably didn't even if you said so. So so often
355
00:19:25.200 --> 00:19:28.359
like I forgive you is okay, I agree, I won't
356
00:19:28.359 --> 00:19:29.240
talk about it again.
357
00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:31.000
But like true.
358
00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:34.160
Forgiveness is like letting it go and you know, and
359
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:36.519
that can happen, but it's not the goal.
360
00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:44.079
Anna.
361
00:19:44.920 --> 00:19:47.680
I would love just to hear because we have this
362
00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:54.000
type see project how you how many complicated people pleasers
363
00:19:54.039 --> 00:19:55.839
you do run across in your circles?
364
00:19:57.039 --> 00:19:58.359
You know, we went out and interviewed a lot of
365
00:19:58.359 --> 00:20:00.559
people for our book and there was the theme of
366
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.799
child sex abust with some of our interviewee. So it's
367
00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:10.400
it's definitely a contributor to this need to focus on
368
00:20:10.440 --> 00:20:13.599
everyone else other than yourself. So if you have, you know,
369
00:20:13.640 --> 00:20:20.279
anything that you want to you know, I guess say,
370
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:22.720
when it comes to people pleasers, we'd love to hear it.
371
00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:33.359
Wait, Elizabeth, we cannot hear you. Did you press mute
372
00:20:33.359 --> 00:20:34.000
by accident?
373
00:20:40.160 --> 00:20:40.839
You can't hear me?
374
00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:48.960
So good now, okay, I'm sorry, let me Is there
375
00:20:49.000 --> 00:20:51.640
a better way to ask that question? I'm happy to
376
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:52.240
do that again.
377
00:20:53.640 --> 00:20:55.559
Well, I think, I mean, I think the the main
378
00:20:55.640 --> 00:20:58.200
question is just oh now we can't hear you again?
379
00:21:08.160 --> 00:21:08.920
Can you hear me now?
380
00:21:09.519 --> 00:21:09.759
Yes?
381
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:10.279
Yes?
382
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:13.799
Okay, all right, sorry with that.
383
00:21:18.440 --> 00:21:22.720
Sorry, My question is really just uh, you know, obviously
384
00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:28.039
there can be so many different trauma responses. Particularly in
385
00:21:28.640 --> 00:21:32.400
the work that I did, we talked a lot about,
386
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.279
you know, the aggressive and then the passive, Like oftentimes,
387
00:21:36.720 --> 00:21:38.759
you know, you want to protect yourself, how do you
388
00:21:38.799 --> 00:21:41.759
do that? You can become overly aggressive to protect yourself.
389
00:21:41.759 --> 00:21:44.960
You can become overly passive to protect yourself. And obviously
390
00:21:45.039 --> 00:21:47.880
there's a lot of connections between that and the types
391
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.319
of personality, right, I mean, the types of personality really
392
00:21:50.480 --> 00:21:57.480
is coping mechanism for staying safer later on, and just
393
00:21:57.880 --> 00:22:02.559
wondering do you see that frequently in your circles and
394
00:22:02.680 --> 00:22:07.160
also do you specifically address that in any way? Like
395
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:10.960
you know, obviously addiction is a behavior that could.
396
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:13.240
Come out of it's a trauma response.
397
00:22:14.440 --> 00:22:16.359
What are you know, if you have any thoughts or
398
00:22:16.359 --> 00:22:18.880
words of wisdom or sort of guidance for you know,
399
00:22:18.960 --> 00:22:21.319
things that you've learned or helped people with over the
400
00:22:21.400 --> 00:22:24.680
years when they are struggling with that passive what other
401
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:26.400
people's needs first to.
402
00:22:26.440 --> 00:22:30.519
The extreme version, right, Yeah, I mean.
403
00:22:30.440 --> 00:22:32.839
We could have a whole nother podcast about just that.
404
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.880
But I mean I was going to say too that, Yeah,
405
00:22:35.920 --> 00:22:38.880
I agree with you that there you know, the the
406
00:22:38.920 --> 00:22:40.039
through three phases of.
407
00:22:39.960 --> 00:22:42.880
The path, the healing from harm. The first one is coping.
408
00:22:43.640 --> 00:22:47.759
And you know, initially after harm we say denied to flect, minimized, justify,
409
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.519
blame the victim, defend the offender.
410
00:22:49.599 --> 00:22:50.279
That's sort of like.
411
00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:53.279
Those initial But then what happens if you stay stuck
412
00:22:53.359 --> 00:22:56.559
in that phase, Then the long term symptoms start to
413
00:22:56.559 --> 00:22:59.839
come online. And we divide those up into physical, emotion,
414
00:23:00.279 --> 00:23:06.519
relational adulting, and addiction. And I would agree with you
415
00:23:06.640 --> 00:23:09.279
when it comes to relational you're either going to be
416
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.640
aggressive or you're going to be passive.
417
00:23:12.079 --> 00:23:14.519
And for people who have caught who have been harmed,
418
00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:19.079
they often come up against this one fundamental question, which is,
419
00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:21.279
let's say if you were harmed in your family, or
420
00:23:21.319 --> 00:23:23.319
even if you weren't harmed in your family, depending on
421
00:23:23.359 --> 00:23:27.440
how your family is dealing with your harm, You're either
422
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:30.920
going to want to stay in the family, in which
423
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:33.759
case you almost have to become a people pleaser. You
424
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:35.880
have to set you have to get good at setting
425
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:41.039
your needs aside and prioritizing other people. Or the other
426
00:23:41.160 --> 00:23:44.720
choice is leave the family system, you know, reject them
427
00:23:44.759 --> 00:23:47.720
in some way, uh, and then try to do your
428
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:51.519
healing work outside of that. You know, that layer of
429
00:23:51.880 --> 00:23:54.799
sort of dysfunction, but you might just recreate it in
430
00:23:54.839 --> 00:23:57.640
a different place too, because then you get into a
431
00:23:57.720 --> 00:23:59.920
relationship and you have your own family or et cetera,
432
00:24:00.119 --> 00:24:02.039
and now you feel also like you have to people
433
00:24:02.039 --> 00:24:04.519
please and keep it together or you'll be have to
434
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.680
abandon that system.
435
00:24:06.240 --> 00:24:11.319
So people pleasing, you know, is very very very common here.
436
00:24:12.759 --> 00:24:16.759
I would say that, you know, it's it's part of
437
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:19.480
the trauma too, though, you know, it's like some you know,
438
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:22.319
you're trying to take care of everyone, and then you
439
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.000
come up against something and.
440
00:24:23.920 --> 00:24:27.799
You explode, like nobody cares about me. I'm totally alone.
441
00:24:28.000 --> 00:24:31.119
Nobody thinks about me? What about me? You know? And
442
00:24:31.119 --> 00:24:31.440
and so.
443
00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:36.240
There's this sort of vacillating between feeling so alone, which
444
00:24:36.279 --> 00:24:40.519
is one of the fundamental core problems in child sexual bees,
445
00:24:40.920 --> 00:24:44.680
or I have to play along or I will be abandoned,
446
00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:47.039
you know. And so if those are your choices, and
447
00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:49.920
those are your choices often if your family isn't doing
448
00:24:49.920 --> 00:24:53.000
the work, those are your choices, and I don't you know,
449
00:24:53.920 --> 00:24:56.960
they're both bad in some ways, and you know, and
450
00:24:57.400 --> 00:24:59.960
it's not so conscious as I'm making it sound obvious,
451
00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:03.440
like people are doing it unconsciously, but if you really
452
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.000
think about when we get down into our circles, we
453
00:25:06.119 --> 00:25:10.880
often see that pattern that and this is why we
454
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:15.039
think about the family system as the as the thing
455
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.799
that needs to be healed, not the individual, because if
456
00:25:17.839 --> 00:25:20.640
the family system doesn't heal, then the one who is
457
00:25:20.720 --> 00:25:25.279
harmed is up against this. Yeah no, I mean I
458
00:25:25.279 --> 00:25:28.839
think that the types of personality is all woven in
459
00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:29.480
the whole thing.
460
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:30.559
Yeah.
461
00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.759
Well, Lizabeth, I wish we could talk all day.
462
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:34.400
I me too.
463
00:25:35.039 --> 00:25:36.440
I think we have to round.
464
00:25:36.519 --> 00:25:40.039
We have a we have a hard stop with with timing.
465
00:25:40.279 --> 00:25:43.599
So we just want to really thank you. But also.
466
00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.599
Where can people find you if people are interested in
467
00:25:48.680 --> 00:25:52.039
learning more about this maybe our listeners would love to
468
00:25:52.079 --> 00:25:54.920
hear it. Just your you know, your website if you're
469
00:25:54.920 --> 00:25:56.119
on Instagram that company.
470
00:25:56.880 --> 00:25:58.599
Yeah, so uh.
471
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:02.880
Hidden Water is a free resource, although we certainly you know,
472
00:26:03.240 --> 00:26:06.000
appreciate donations because we don't have any formal funding.
473
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:07.440
We're running the whole thing.
474
00:26:07.480 --> 00:26:10.839
It's we always say, the community, you know, healing itself,
475
00:26:11.319 --> 00:26:14.319
and so it's really people inside the Hidden Water, but
476
00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:20.720
you know outside, we have circles. Our website is www.
477
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:27.599
Hidden Watercircles dot org. And in July and in January,
478
00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:30.200
you can sign up for circles. Sometimes you have to
479
00:26:30.240 --> 00:26:32.200
be on the waiting list for a whole season though,
480
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:34.799
before you're going to actually get a spot, so please
481
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:35.480
be aware of that.
482
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:36.799
But we're you know.
483
00:26:36.799 --> 00:26:40.000
You're welcome. And then I do want to just plug
484
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:45.079
my book called Healing Together, a Family Guide to Healing
485
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:48.920
from Sexual Harm. And I wrote this book for the
486
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:52.880
other three groups, you know. You know that so often
487
00:26:52.960 --> 00:26:56.759
the person who is harmed and what is up against
488
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.880
their family system and they're having to do their own
489
00:26:58.920 --> 00:27:01.240
work and till they put people in the family how
490
00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.039
to behave, And so the book is really for those
491
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:06.599
other people in the family to be able to read
492
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:09.759
what the person who was harmed is going through, what
493
00:27:09.920 --> 00:27:12.880
the different people in the different positions in the family
494
00:27:12.920 --> 00:27:15.200
are going through, and how can you think about this
495
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:18.200
differently so that you can be a value add as
496
00:27:18.279 --> 00:27:22.839
opposed to neutral or you know, taking away from or
497
00:27:23.119 --> 00:27:26.839
causing inadvertent harm by behaving in ways. So you can
498
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:30.039
find that book on my website Elizabeth Clemens dot com
499
00:27:30.839 --> 00:27:32.480
or Planning Change dot com.
500
00:27:32.680 --> 00:27:34.359
And that book.
501
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:37.519
Is so often sent to the people in the family,
502
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:40.799
you know, because it's a really nice way to orient
503
00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:44.240
yourself about how you're thinking in a way that's actually
504
00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:48.759
causing more harm. Thank you for having me. I really
505
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:50.880
appreciate all your great work, both of you.
506
00:27:51.759 --> 00:27:55.160
Well, I just I think this conversation is so important
507
00:27:55.160 --> 00:27:58.319
for so many people. And I think that your family
508
00:27:58.519 --> 00:28:02.960
work is crucial because, as I said, it is obviously
509
00:28:03.000 --> 00:28:08.119
the traumatic experience is traumatizing, but how the family deals
510
00:28:08.119 --> 00:28:11.880
with it at that moment and moving forward is such
511
00:28:11.880 --> 00:28:15.200
a huge component of the trauma response. And I think
512
00:28:15.640 --> 00:28:20.519
creating opportunities to help the family because they don't know
513
00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:20.920
what to do.
514
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:22.480
As you said, your very good point.
515
00:28:22.519 --> 00:28:26.000
These are people lacking in skills because this is not
516
00:28:26.279 --> 00:28:33.240
a vocabulary or emotional regulation that techniques that they have.
517
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:38.759
And I think your book is very important, So we
518
00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:40.559
really hope people will go check it out. We hope
519
00:28:40.599 --> 00:28:43.640
people will check out our website, the Types of Personality
520
00:28:43.759 --> 00:28:47.960
dot com and listen to the podcast. So thank you
521
00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:50.799
so much for everyone being here today, Thank you for
522
00:28:50.839 --> 00:28:51.759
having me to you