What Makes a Conversation Feel Safe?

WEBVTT
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:09.359
We talk a lot about creating safe spaces at work, in education, in our communities, even around the dinner table.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:15.199
We say we want people to be honest, to speak openly, to bring their whole selves into the room.
00:00:15.439 --> 00:00:21.199
But I've started wondering whether simply calling a space safe actually makes it safe.
00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:24.559
Because safe for me might not mean safe for you.
00:00:24.800 --> 00:00:30.239
And perhaps a conversation that feels uncomfortable isn't necessarily an unsafe one.
00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:35.039
For this conversation, I brought together Kirsty Lewis, Sanjay Truder, and Dr.
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:36.560
Claire Stuart Hall.
00:00:37.119 --> 00:00:46.560
Three people whose work involves creating, holding, and sometimes challenging spaces where people need to speak, listen, and navigate difference.
00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:51.359
And the question was: what makes a conversation feel safe?
00:00:51.840 --> 00:00:53.759
This is the third conversation.
00:00:53.920 --> 00:00:55.759
Let's see where it takes us.
00:00:56.079 --> 00:01:00.719
So just brief introductions, and I'll allow my guests to expand on that in a second.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:02.560
We are joined by Kirsty.
00:01:02.719 --> 00:01:11.760
Kirsty is the founder of the School of Facilitation and an experienced facilitator who has worked in organisations and brands across sectors.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:20.400
So her work is about designing the conditions in which groups can think, learn, and participate and not simply getting people through an agenda.
00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:23.439
So thank you for joining us this morning, Kirsty.
00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:24.719
Lovely.
00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:26.879
We've also got Sanjit.
00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:36.079
He is a public programmes manager at Bristol Museums, developing and overseeing exhibitions, interventions, and public programmes.
00:01:36.319 --> 00:01:45.200
His work often brings people together around culture, identity, history, and ideas that can be complex, contested, or deeply personal.
00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:49.519
So thank you, Sanjit, for joining us as well this morning.
00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:51.760
And then last but not least, we've got Claire.
00:01:51.920 --> 00:02:03.439
She's the founder of Equitable Vision, an inclusion specialist, researcher, coach and facilitator, whose work focuses particularly on race, equity, and leadership.
00:02:03.680 --> 00:02:15.280
She regularly works in conversations where discomfort, power, and accountability are part of the room, which makes the perspective on safety especially important in today's conversation.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:17.199
So welcome this morning, Claire.
00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:18.240
Really appreciate that.
00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:24.000
Kirsty, would you like to just start us off by kind of expanding a little bit on the space that you work within?
00:02:24.319 --> 00:02:25.680
So I work in two spaces.
00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:43.919
So I work either inter-organisations and global corporates, where we either work with leadership teams on their strategies andor work with leaders, trainers, HR on building their facilitation capability so that they can execute their learning programs.
00:02:44.080 --> 00:02:53.919
And then I also support other facilitators and trainers to develop, grow themselves both from a business and a delivery design perspective.
00:02:54.800 --> 00:02:55.199
Brilliant.
00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:56.400
Thanks, Kirsty.
00:02:56.560 --> 00:02:57.599
Um Sanjait.
00:02:58.080 --> 00:03:28.080
So a lot of the work that I do involves well, working across Bristol museums, certainly, and across the many sites that we have, with the many curators that we have, working across issues like collections, care and conservation, but also the interpretation of what those collections and how those collections are interpreted and how the um the objects that we hold on behalf of the uh the city are presented and understood by people.
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:33.439
That inevitably also involves working with communities in all of their diversity.
00:03:33.759 --> 00:03:37.120
Um and that is a huge challenge.
00:03:37.280 --> 00:04:10.159
Um there are multiple perspectives within communities, and I think you know, particularly as somebody who comes from a South Asian background as well, I'm very aware, and I am also an immigrant to this country, I'm very aware, for example, that um quite often, particularly more recently arrived, or perhaps communities that perhaps even arrived in the 60s and 70s, will hold on to a version of their own culture at that time, um, which can be quite different, perhaps, to the culture that their children or their grandchildren hold, um having been born here.
00:04:10.400 --> 00:04:24.959
And so sometimes when you're dealing with a family group, you don't get cohesive and singular responses to the story of um something that's held in our collections, or indeed the reasons why it's come into our collections as well.
00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:41.279
So um all of those aspects, the antecedents, the histories, the stories, there's that constant space of contest, challenge, and um it requires us really to every now and then just back and down the hatches and listen really, really carefully.
00:04:41.519 --> 00:05:09.920
But that can be a challenge in an organization that is built on the basis of telling people what things are rather than listening and understanding, and it's that constant tension between um learned expertise, if you like, on the one hand, and the living expertise and uh relationship to um things that are in our collection, um, which is uh an interesting challenge to manage.
00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:12.160
Thank you, Sanjay.
00:05:12.240 --> 00:05:18.160
Um that's really interesting, actually, the the that balance that you're saying, and uh having to challenge that as well.
00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:19.439
Um Claire.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:20.639
Hello everyone.
00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:21.439
Um I'm Dr.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:22.879
Claire Stewart Hall.
00:05:22.959 --> 00:05:34.639
Uh I'm a researcher and practitioner working around whiteness and all of its class sexuality and race intersections.
00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:45.279
Um so I I work from my organization, which I built um nearly 10 years ago called Equitable Vision, and I help mainly white groups.
00:05:45.360 --> 00:05:53.279
I've built programs around white leadership teams and trying to understand what keeps leadership teams white.
00:05:53.519 --> 00:05:55.279
So, does it matter?
00:05:55.360 --> 00:06:02.800
Uh, how do the dynamics of race um intersect and interact to create organisational culture?
00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:07.680
So, I my PhD focused on senior leadership teams in schools.
00:06:07.759 --> 00:06:24.079
I was a headteacher and tried every which way and every which policy to be able to uh create racial representation in the school, and for whatever reason it didn't stick and I couldn't work in it anymore because I just felt like it just didn't feel in my body, didn't feel good.
00:06:24.240 --> 00:06:52.480
Um, so after I had my children, I um undertook my PhD to try and understand it, and I I began trying to understand the voices of black and brown teachers and leaders, and then I suddenly realized that people who were talking uh about their experiences of working in majority white teams um and the kind of oppressive environments that that what majority white teams can create wasn't a methodological approach that could be able to kind of interrupt it.
00:06:52.560 --> 00:06:57.360
And so I've since then moved my all of my research to study whiteness.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:25.439
So, what happens between white people, how does race and a majority white group affect decision making, um, affect what feels good, affect levels of comfort or what feels safe or what feels comfortable, and how does that end up perpetuating organisational environments that to other people appear completely race neutral and actually are really set up and to advantage certain people through the door and to create kind of barriers for um for other people.
00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:38.000
And so I build programs around that, I coach around that, and I offer leadership um strategic vision really that kind of embeds tries to make race easier to um easier to talk about.
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:40.639
And I do that in tons of lots of different ways.
00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:41.839
So it's great to be here.
00:07:41.920 --> 00:07:42.959
Thank you for inviting me.
00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:45.120
Yeah, no, thank you for joining us, Claire.
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:47.439
And it's a really fascinating space that you work in.
00:07:47.680 --> 00:07:51.920
I think, you know, particularly around what makes a conversation feel safe.
00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:58.079
Um it's really, you know, interesting to see your perspective on that as well.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:03.680
Um, Posty, I mean, when you're in your space, what can you tell?
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:10.639
I mean, often very quickly, that lets you know a group feels safe enough to genuinely participate rather than just comply.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:14.480
I think there's many factors that well, adults, that's one thing.
00:08:14.560 --> 00:08:47.919
So whoever is leading these conversations, you need to treat people like adults, not kids, which is sometimes the default behaviour because people come with a set of beliefs around how they should be should be having conversations and leading, but often the only example many people come with to begin with is like how it was when they were at school or at university and they just saw someone at the front of the room talking at, and it's not something that gets talked about in organisations that I work with, like on an ongoing basis, what does good look like when you're at the front of the room?
00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:50.639
So, how do you sort of lead from behind?
00:08:50.879 --> 00:08:55.200
The other thing I always notice as well is do people know why they're in that room?
00:08:55.360 --> 00:09:12.639
And so if there's no clear purpose and or outcomes expoused espoused and said, and people can buy into that, people often then just sit there and go, Oh, I don't understand why I'm here, what's going to happen as a consequence of any conversation I'm about to have or anything that I'm about to do.
00:09:12.799 --> 00:09:24.960
So for me, if people don't understand the why and the what from the very beginning, um, and just writing it down in a an invite or a meeting, a diary calendar invite is not enough.
00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:26.799
It needs to be talked at and named.
00:09:26.960 --> 00:09:31.919
So that you see people's physically relax when that gets discussed.
00:09:32.000 --> 00:09:33.120
Like, why are we here today?
00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:34.879
What are we looking to achieve?
00:09:35.200 --> 00:09:37.440
That that to me is a the start point.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.039
And I think Priya Parker talks about it quite well in her book, The Art of Gathering.
00:09:41.120 --> 00:09:49.039
She says, purpose is your bouncer, and without that purpose, you you people just won't they don't know why they're there.
00:09:49.120 --> 00:09:54.480
Even for a family wedding or a family barbecue, like you are there to host and gather people together.
00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:57.600
So so be clear what what what are we going to do here today?
00:09:57.840 --> 00:09:58.960
That's quite interesting, isn't it?
00:09:59.039 --> 00:10:04.159
Because it's it's all about that that purpose, that first five minutes as well is crucial, isn't it?
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:14.960
You know, whether that room is somewhere that they feel that they're safe to speak, but also they understand why they're there and why they need to speak and have those conversations as well.
00:10:15.279 --> 00:10:16.879
Thanks for that, Kirsty.
00:10:17.039 --> 00:10:24.159
Um, Claire, I mean, in conversations about race, power, and equity, sometimes discomfort can be necessary.
00:10:24.480 --> 00:10:32.639
You know, how how do we distinguish between a conversation being genuinely unsafe and a conversation simply being uncomfortable?
00:10:32.960 --> 00:10:51.600
I think I kind of veer away from terms like safety because I think safe for whom, you know, there can be uh, you know, in in in lots of ways we're kind of habitualized and socialized into ways of being that that kind of give the body a sense of comfort.
00:10:51.759 --> 00:10:58.559
And I think there's a big, you know, research demonstrates that there's a relationship between race and the body.
00:10:58.720 --> 00:11:06.799
So if I feel uncomfortable, I'm going to feel it in my body because it's deeply connected to who we are, our families, it's non-negotiable.
00:11:06.879 --> 00:11:09.200
Your kind of racial identity is non-negotiable.
00:11:09.279 --> 00:11:16.000
And I think we move in groups, we move in groups and we read different, we've already done it today.
00:11:16.080 --> 00:11:25.279
I'm reading Kirstney's background, I'm reading Sanjait's voice, and trying to place it, you know, we're already, we're already doing that as as humans.
00:11:25.440 --> 00:11:29.919
I think it becomes, it it depends on who you have in the room.
00:11:30.159 --> 00:11:42.399
And I think for me, when I'm talking about race or I'm talking about leadership, trying to make clear that that affects and influence, that's the weather of decision making.
00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:49.759
You know, the the timing and sequencing of when when we make decisions or which bits, even which bits of policy we draw on.
00:11:49.840 --> 00:11:56.639
You know, Sanjay and I and Kirsty could read the same policy, and based on our lived experiences, different bits would light up.
00:11:56.879 --> 00:12:06.080
And so the the notion or the idea that we're applying things or we come into spaces in neutral ways is um a myth is a myth, you know, it's mythologised.
00:12:06.399 --> 00:12:24.320
Where I think that the the space of connection is, and and the really kind of juicy space is how do I show up as me without shame, knowing where my areas are that I don't know anything about, and how do I take responsibility for those?
00:12:24.480 --> 00:12:35.360
And I don't I don't encourage people to wait for somebody to point them out, or how do I kind of own those and think that's part of my own human um evolution and development?
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:45.279
And I think that makes it a safe space so that we don't have kind of performative experts or a performative idea of somebody who's better or or or worse than somebody else.
00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:54.000
And I think those are kind of uh diffusion of power dynamics actually is what makes it a safe space, or at least being able to talk about them.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:54.639
Claire.
00:12:54.799 --> 00:12:58.879
How do you get people to actually acknowledge?
00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:15.360
No, no, how do you get them to recognize their preferred behaviors so that when they're coming into the conversations with you, they go, Oh, yeah, that's one of my triggers, or this is one of my preferences, and therefore, is that about to overshadow the conversation we want to have here?
00:13:15.679 --> 00:13:29.679
Um, I think I do it in lots and lots of different ways, um, through uh group talking, through contracting the space, first of all, um, and making it clear that it's welcome in the space.
00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:37.759
For example, I was in a meeting um in Hamburg um last week, and uh a woman was crying.
00:13:37.840 --> 00:13:41.360
Um she was uh really, really upset about something that had happened.
00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.240
It was an equity issue that had happened and it affected her deeply.
00:13:44.320 --> 00:13:46.080
She felt it really deeply.
00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:56.320
And she spent a long time apologizing for crying and saying, it's not that I'm unprofessional, it's it's not that I, you know, feel, you know, I can't control my emotions.
00:13:56.399 --> 00:14:03.679
I don't want you to get the wrong impression, which gave us a hint about what that culture, what that culture expected.
00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:12.480
I didn't know the organisation very well, but it really revealed to me, okay, what what are the kind of conditions of this space, and to try and verbalise them.
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:14.240
So I have various different ways.
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:23.039
And there's a brilliant um activity called Hot Buttons, which is by uh a woman called Kathy O'Bear, who's a practitioner based in Denver.
00:14:23.279 --> 00:14:29.759
Um, and and she and it's basically a list, she likes lists, these behaviours, rate yourself out of 10.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:32.399
In in and people love to do that.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:55.120
But I guess if I if I take myself as an example, uh as a lesbian going into spaces where where a facilitator might say something to me or ignore me or make assumptions about me, that's probably you know the hundredth time this this year, this month that that has happened.
00:14:55.279 --> 00:15:00.799
So sometimes my reaction is going to be weightier than somebody else's reaction.
00:15:00.879 --> 00:15:21.440
So when I do a hot buttons activity, for example, lots of people who align in majority groups who are, you know, cisgendered, uh white heterosexual men who are middle class don't really have many hot buttons because they haven't had they spaces are created for them, the spaces are built around them.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:22.799
So they don't have any conflict.
00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:31.360
And even if somebody says, Oh, could you've interrupted Anthony, uh, they'll go, oh, fair enough, you know, sometimes because that had that hasn't happened a hundred times before.
00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:36.720
So we all come into different spaces, but I guess it's making clear what the conditions are.
00:15:36.879 --> 00:15:43.519
So I try really hard to explicate as much as I can what's what's enabled in this space, what this space is for.
00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:48.000
So a bit like Kirsty said, this is a space to talk about what's happening now.
00:15:48.240 --> 00:15:50.080
I often talk about how I'm feeling.
00:15:50.399 --> 00:15:54.480
So I say I'm I'm really far from home and I'm feeling really nervous.
00:15:54.559 --> 00:15:58.000
Or when I asked that question, I felt a real intake of breath in this room.
00:15:58.159 --> 00:16:00.080
It's is that me or is that really?
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:11.679
So I try and kind of support people to think, oh, hang on, let's just slow down a minute and bring the body into the room because it's it's data, it's telling you, it's telling you um things.
00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:16.080
And if if that's how you build to me, that's how you build teams.
00:16:16.240 --> 00:16:23.840
Because otherwise, people go offline and then they're just expected to assimilate into a set of conditions that were built not for them.
00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:28.000
I think that's so powerful and so absolutely on the button.
00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:45.919
Um, one of the things that that that I'm passionate about, and it does take time, um, and um is is is this whole idea of going back to what Kirsty was saying about um um having purpose, um, but also at the same time, you know, your points about safety, you know, safe for whom?
00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:48.480
Um, on what terms are we talking about here?
00:16:48.639 --> 00:17:01.360
And for that to be something that works for everybody in any conversation, it's almost as though what you actually need to do as a precondition to any discussion is say, what is the purpose of this discussion?
00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:09.759
Let's have a shared understanding and arrival of what that purpose is, um, and then let's set the ground rules for that again together.
00:17:10.000 --> 00:17:25.599
Um, this is hard work, it means that you end up having a lot of meetings, but it is always time well spent because then, exactly as you're saying, Claire, that sense of ownership, that sense of investment, that sense of buy-in is so much more complete.
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:43.039
And you as a facilitator or as somebody who's part of holding that conversation in some way, shape, or form, whether as a convener or a facilitator or whatever, or observer, um, um, or somebody just gathering data, as it were, um, are much more engaged and are getting something much richer.
00:17:43.359 --> 00:17:57.440
And I think also, particularly in terms of, you know, well, it probably won't be news to anyone, and I'm I'm sure I'm not telling tales out of school, but you know, being an Arts Council England funded organization, data is enormously important to us.
00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:14.240
However, so much of that data is quantitative, and that's fine, but that tells us something, but actually the the the meat of it is actually in the qualitative aspects of people's relationships to everything that we are doing, the engagement, the stories we're telling, how we're telling them.
00:18:14.400 --> 00:18:22.720
And it's that that value, if you like, in that data that can only be arrived at by that level of deep engagement and that deep investment.
00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.880
And it's a challenge in times when money is scarce and money is tight.
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:35.119
And I think, you know, particularly in the funded sector and in in the sort of culture space, um, that's a it's it's it's incredibly difficult.
00:18:35.200 --> 00:19:00.160
And I think sometimes some of the informal discussions that take place can be really valuable places for gathering that kind of data because, in many ways, the terms have already been set by the people who are the subjects of that conversation, and that's another really powerful um um sort of uh for me certainly another sort of powerful uh route to go down.
00:19:01.039 --> 00:19:15.039
Just um listening to you all, um it reminds me we use a model, and you've just all said these words, um, we use a model called pose, and it the pillars are purpose, ownership, safety, and engage.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:24.640
And I really buy into this premise that any facilitated or training space needs to have those four conditions for people to fully show up and participate.
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:26.640
So the purpose is what we've discussed already.
00:19:26.720 --> 00:19:27.680
Why am I here?
00:19:28.000 --> 00:19:35.119
How do we create ownership for the individuals that they own the conversation, the outcomes, their learning, their participation?
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.200
We can't make people do it.
00:19:37.599 --> 00:19:45.920
Safety, I think, is um a build on all of these things, it's an output, and you can't, we all know you can't just go, this is a safe space because it's so contrived.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:52.559
And then the engagement piece that's the way you build trust, is like how do people engage in these conversations?
00:19:52.880 --> 00:19:59.359
And one of the things we'll always do as people arrive into a room is is connection before content.
00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:06.799
It's like you need the human connection, you can't dive into the the deep conversation that needs to be had, even though you know it's there.
00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:15.039
But how I think that's our responsibility as the convener, the host, the facilitator, is we're drawing connections for people.
00:20:15.200 --> 00:20:19.279
So connection from me to you, we help the group connect.
00:20:19.359 --> 00:20:24.319
You can't just assume that because they're all in that room together, they're gonna connect with one another.
00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:28.640
Um, and and it's through these these steps.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:32.880
So um I agree as well with Claire in terms of how do we contract?
00:20:32.960 --> 00:20:34.559
Like, what are we gonna talk about?
00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:38.640
And I was just thinking as well, and I was curious to hear what Sanjay and Claire think.
00:20:38.720 --> 00:20:41.920
Um, I think the environment is part of this as well.
00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:44.640
Like, where do we have these conversations?
00:20:44.799 --> 00:20:46.160
What's the room like?
00:20:46.480 --> 00:20:56.640
Are we back in a stuffy old conference room with a static table that just reminds people of this is a place of power, blah blah blah blah.
00:20:56.880 --> 00:21:02.799
Or are we actually getting a bit creative, even ourselves, and going, actually, we're gonna do this a different way?
00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:09.759
So I always have circles of chairs now, even if I'm in a corporate space, I'm like, I do not want to be in a fixed table room.
00:21:10.000 --> 00:21:13.759
Give me a give me a room with daylight, because we're not mushrooms.
00:21:14.000 --> 00:21:17.039
Like, we need we need to see daylight.
00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:23.359
It gives us energy, and then I always have a circle of chairs to represent, you know, we're all equal here.
00:21:23.440 --> 00:21:25.920
Even me, I'm part of your group.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:29.599
I'm not I'm not other, I'm not outside of this.
00:21:29.920 --> 00:21:30.640
I love that.
00:21:30.799 --> 00:21:45.200
I have a background in theatre, and I think one of the things that that theatre does incredibly well is is exactly that those circles of trust, that that ability to create um uh a shared space um where where everyone's on the level.
00:21:45.359 --> 00:21:52.400
Um, but I think also one of the things that that that theatre taught me was the power of play and the clues in the in the name, I guess.
00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:53.839
You know, what do you do in theatre?
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:55.039
You put on a play.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:21:59.440
Play allows adults, particularly, licensed to be children again.
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:07.839
And to be creative and to think in ways that are unguarded, perhaps, in a good way.
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:29.119
Unguarded also in the sense of being much more open to the stimuli and the um the unspoken communication that often that that that we share as human beings, be it in terms of physicality, tone of voice, gesture, all of those sorts of things, we just start to read each other in a very, very different way.
00:22:29.440 --> 00:22:42.400
Because if we sort of step back, and you know, I don't have children, but I am an uncle, uh, I am a godparent, and when I see children play, they're doing that all the time.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:23:12.240
They're reading each other in very kind of subconscious and unconscious ways that are and and that's telling them about the other person or the group or the diversity of the group that they're in in a way that um I think as adults we train ourselves not to, because we go into be it corporate spaces or workspaces or the idea of what professional looks like, which again becomes quite antithetical to this idea of bring your whole self to work.
00:23:12.400 --> 00:23:24.079
I mean, I whenever I read that in an HR policy or statement, I I I usually have to suppress laughing out loud in a fairly ugly way because I'm kind of like, what does that mean?
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.839
You know, I'm a gay man, occasionally I can be quite flamboyant.
00:23:28.000 --> 00:23:38.240
I have been known to drop the odd F bomb sometimes, you know, um, when something kind of happens, like, oh ah, you know, um, but it's just a normal reaction for for me.
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.599
Usually it elicits um um humour and a laugh.
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:46.640
That's me bringing my whole self to work in a sense, not having to be as guarded.
00:23:46.799 --> 00:23:49.119
Um, but for some people that can be a real challenge.
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:51.759
It's it can read as unprofessional, you know.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:57.680
Again, we're going back to that whole idea of Claire, you were talking about who writes the rules, what does that look like?
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:13.359
So I guess um for me, a lot of the ways of creating that sense of um equality um but also equanimity um is about play and just generating that sense of lightness.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:24.160
So we might be discussing something serious for sure, and this probably doesn't apply, for example, in you know, if you're about to put someone on a performance improvement plan, that's probably not the space for play.
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:42.720
But, you know, in a situation where we're talking about a facilitated conversation, perhaps with communities, or we're talking about sort of um embarking on a path of developing a strategy, perhaps a theory of change, um, perhaps um um you know a a corporate reimagining of one sort or another.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:24:52.640
Power of play, I think, really has such a it's such a generous way, that's the word I'm looking for, such a generous way of unlocking potential.
00:24:53.279 --> 00:25:01.200
But how I'm just kind of thinking, um few of you obviously deliver online um facilitation, you know.
00:25:01.519 --> 00:25:03.599
How does that feel different online?
00:25:03.839 --> 00:25:11.119
You know, because you've got that lack of physical cues changing slightly, you know, we've got cameras, chat, muting.
00:25:11.680 --> 00:25:12.480
I disagree.
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.319
I think it could be the same as in-person.
00:25:14.400 --> 00:25:17.519
I think it's the mindset of the facilitator and the host.
00:25:17.680 --> 00:25:26.559
If if they believe that there's a barrier and a difference, that will trans transcend through their language, through how they design.
00:25:26.720 --> 00:25:33.519
I'm about to literally teach class on how to design virtually, and my attitude is be the DJ, firstly.
00:25:33.920 --> 00:25:36.079
So think listen listen to the radio.
00:25:36.160 --> 00:25:37.279
How do how do DJs?
00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:41.359
We feel like we have a connection with the DJ because of the way they speak, the way they show up.
00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:49.359
I do think people give us clues visually when we're in in on here, like, and you can pick those up.
00:25:49.519 --> 00:26:02.319
It's I think it's we have to do some relearning because we were so like we're all of a generation whereby in person was just how we learned in the corporate world in an organization.
00:26:02.559 --> 00:26:11.200
Um I think I do think you can create good connection um through the through the lens of a camera.
00:26:11.359 --> 00:26:13.680
I think you have to be more explicit though.
00:26:13.920 --> 00:26:17.920
So, what I mean by that is definitely more breakout rooms.
00:26:18.079 --> 00:26:28.480
The number of times people would try and have a convene a conversation in a meeting with eight people on screen and never use a breakout room and then wonder why no one will speak.
00:26:28.799 --> 00:26:32.000
Because you need to give some time to build that trust.
00:26:32.240 --> 00:26:38.640
I think also getting people to interact every few minutes and do not hide behind the bloody um PowerPoint.
00:26:38.960 --> 00:26:48.000
Turn the PowerPoint off and bring everybody back into plenary and show people how to put the whole group on the screen and not just the person who's speaking.
00:26:48.160 --> 00:26:50.240
Those small things will make the big difference.
00:26:50.559 --> 00:26:53.759
In my humble opinion, I will get off the soapbox.
00:26:54.720 --> 00:26:56.240
No, what about you, Claire?
00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.720
I mean, you do facilitation, you know, face to face, online.
00:27:01.359 --> 00:27:02.960
Do you find any differences?
00:27:03.279 --> 00:27:12.079
I think it's I mean, most of my work is is is online, mainly for cost, I think, and access.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:37.279
So I think, you know, if COVID taught us anything, we can provide things, you know, in this very kind of busy, you know, the conditions that I've described in research, it's described as a white supremacist environment where there are certain characteristics, you know, and Tema Oaken and Jones have talked explicitly about it, about the kind of entrenched ways and expectations that we're that we're meant to how we're meant to behave.
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:43.519
And I think online and access is one way of kind of interrupting that.
00:27:43.839 --> 00:27:47.519
So I I think people can show up differently online.
00:27:47.599 --> 00:27:50.480
I think it can be a very, very accessible space.
00:27:50.640 --> 00:27:58.799
Um, sometimes people don't turn their camera on, sometimes people, you know, people have got all sorts of things that are happening in their lives.
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:00.960
And of course that's happening at home.
00:28:01.039 --> 00:28:06.880
They've just schlepped into work and are probably quite resentful for it.
00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:13.680
So my own, I I do, I start usually um my divest whiteness program.
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:22.720
I've I've learned to start it with with a specialist mindfulness practitioner who comes in and soothes the body before we begin to talk about race.
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:23.599
And that works.
00:28:23.680 --> 00:28:35.119
It's a very kind of simple, it's an additional cost for me, but I think it's a very, very simple way of kind of encouraging bringing people together in in body and in some kind of engagement.
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:39.279
And certainly in any race work, I would, I would, I would do that.
00:28:39.519 --> 00:28:49.680
That in person, the difficulty of in person is people, I'm I'm people ring me up and say, Claire, we've got a 15-minute slot on Tuesday.
00:28:49.759 --> 00:28:51.599
Can you come and talk about colourism?
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:54.880
And I say, no, no, I can't.
00:28:55.039 --> 00:29:00.240
Because that because because I would rather have three hours online or two hours online.
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:01.200
There's no point.
00:29:01.279 --> 00:29:06.559
You know, I'm at this stage, I'm 51, I'm at the stage of saying, don't do it.
00:29:07.039 --> 00:29:08.559
Don't do it badly.
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:10.480
I would rather you didn't do it.
00:29:10.640 --> 00:29:13.039
You're not ready to talk about this.
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:14.400
You know, you're not ready.
00:29:14.480 --> 00:29:20.079
You could do something that's around, you know, very soft inclusion, call it inclusion, call it belonging, whatever.
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:28.640
But don't traips into a conversation around race because what you're going to do is you you there is no investment in it.
00:29:28.799 --> 00:29:31.359
And actually, I would rather have two hours with people online.
00:29:31.759 --> 00:29:37.200
Give me four people who you really think want to invest or understand or learn.
00:29:37.359 --> 00:29:44.000
You can inject knowledge and information into an organization really easily, and we can develop a program outside of that.
00:29:44.160 --> 00:29:50.319
But it's a work, don't think that because I show up in person for 20 minutes, I'm going to somehow impart something.
00:29:50.400 --> 00:29:51.839
It's it again, it's a mythology.
00:29:52.079 --> 00:30:01.759
So you have to kind of think about the conditions in which you're working, which are, you know, conflict averse, um, colour evasive, they don't really want to talk about race.
00:30:01.920 --> 00:30:04.960
Um, they don't want people, there is a power structure.
00:30:05.119 --> 00:30:11.680
I mean, in many, I went to a really big conference of, I don't know, 15,000, 16,000 people.
00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:18.480
And at the time, they, you know, as as it continues, a genocide is happening in the world.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:23.359
And people, researchers who were researching genocide wanted to come in and talk about it.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:29.680
And the facilitator said, we know there are things going on in the world, leave them at the door.
00:30:30.160 --> 00:30:31.440
Leave them at the door.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:40.559
And I think probably 80% of the room heaved a sigh of relief and went, Oh, thank God we don't have to talk about that, because it didn't impact people's lives.
00:30:40.720 --> 00:30:45.759
And that was an in-person space, and you could physically feel the room change.
00:30:46.079 --> 00:30:49.519
And actually, it would have been, and it was hugely challenging.
00:30:49.599 --> 00:31:01.920
It's a big national um education organization that happens, um, an international one, and that sends a really, really big signal about what's allowed into the room and what and what isn't.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:20.319
So I think for me, there's a kind of perception that in-person events are more connective or and they can be, you know, I agree with Kirsty, they can really be, if facilitated in a way that brings in the body and allows us to be ourselves and connect.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:22.720
And there are lots of unintended outcomes, aren't they?
00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:28.079
You know, people fall in love, people fall out, people share lunch, people need the loo at the same time.
00:31:28.240 --> 00:31:30.079
All sorts all of those things happen as well.
00:31:30.160 --> 00:31:32.559
And there are brilliant outcomes from that.
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:41.359
But also, people feel in a different way in the space, and unless you're prepared to manage that, there's a there's a temptation to shut it down.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:52.640
Because we're all talking idealistically about spaces and what we would really like them to be for the best, you know, for for because we're committed to equity and we're committed to, you know, really brilliant practice.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:58.880
But there are organizations I work in who say, oh, for God's sake, don't talk about neurodivergence, or can you just not mention it?
00:31:59.039 --> 00:31:59.920
Just don't mention it.
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:02.799
Because we don't want people to bring their whole selves to work.
00:32:03.039 --> 00:32:03.680
We don't.
00:32:03.839 --> 00:32:07.599
We want them to shut up and listen and comply with what we're saying.
00:32:07.759 --> 00:32:17.599
And I think that's a reality, you know, and so sometimes my job is to go in and kind of manage not the people in the organization, the people in the organisation are ready, the people in the room are ready.
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.720
It's the actual people who've commissioned me that aren't ready.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:22.319
So I'm influencing back.
00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:24.559
A bit like Sanjay said earlier.
00:32:24.799 --> 00:32:37.599
You, you know, city councils are city councils, they come with legacies, and sometimes our job is to influence them in order to let groups be freer, you know?
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:38.079
Yeah.
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:38.880
Thanks, Claire.
00:32:38.960 --> 00:32:40.720
Kirsty, you wanted to add something.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:45.440
I was just gonna say, um, none of us have named it, but I think Claire, you just demonstrated it.
00:32:45.519 --> 00:32:59.200
Uh, our language makes or breaks safety in a room, and how the words that are chosen, the tonality of voice, even the body language, especially, I just noticed and I sometimes it's unintentional.
00:32:59.359 --> 00:33:00.480
I think it's really unintentional.
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:06.799
I mean, how many of us stop and truly think about what we're going to say and how we're going to say it in the moment?
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:09.359
And I think it's really important.
00:33:09.440 --> 00:33:21.279
So listening to both of you talk very eloquently, so oh yeah, like we need to have that consideration when we're working with these groups, like, what am I going to say?
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:33.039
Because if I choose even just one wrong word, to your point, Claire, it really like impacts people, and you can you can see the exhalation or the opposite like that, all my life.
00:33:33.279 --> 00:33:44.880
And and Sanjay, just like you, I have been known to drop the odd swear word, and and I don't mind doing that, but uh you can see some people sort of because that's like their upbringing.
00:33:45.279 --> 00:33:49.119
I mean I never would in a room full of South Asian aunties, for example.
00:33:49.279 --> 00:33:52.720
I just wouldn't, because my goose would be cooked for you know forevermore.
00:33:52.960 --> 00:33:55.200
That would be it, that would be it, you know.
00:33:55.359 --> 00:33:57.839
Um context, of course, matters.
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:15.679
Um, but I think in a room of of of um uh shall we say you know in a in a in a kind of professional space, um um sometimes it can be a real icebreaker and it can be part of giving people permission to actually just drop some of that guardedness.
00:34:15.840 --> 00:34:18.880
Um and you've just got to judge it, it's all about judging it, isn't it?
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:34.480
And and and so much of that comes down to how you read the room, and so much of that also comes from the sense of how you have been part of defining that purpose and how you intend to hold that space so that people can be free to speak as well.
00:34:34.639 --> 00:34:37.440
It's it's it's it's a it's a it's a finely judged thing.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:47.039
I mean, so far, touch wood, I don't think I've got it wrong, or if I have, I've managed to kind of row back from it somehow reasonably successfully, that may happen yet.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:47.840
Who knows?
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:58.000
But I think you're saying that as well, Sanjay, is even if you think you've got it wrong and you've managed to row it back, that is the sign of being a good facilitator.
00:34:58.239 --> 00:35:05.199
Because, you know, and through the education system that I've worked in in the past, it's knowing your audience.
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:12.079
And, you know, every hour I had a different audience as as those young people kind of came through the door.
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:28.239
And it's but it's knowing how to respond to that situation and what needs, what you know, what language you can use, what you're trying to, you know, like Kirsty was saying, what is the purpose of this and how you facilitate that space based around that.
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:37.519
And if you do make a mistake, because we're human beings, no again, it's that knowing that skill of how you can then address that and bring it back.
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:55.840
Sometimes what happens, and I think it's uh uh to me is a sign of really high quality and experience facilitation, is the notion or the idea that as a facilitator you're not immune to those practices or power dynamics working through you.
00:35:56.320 --> 00:35:59.280
I call it kind of whiteness might work through me.
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:07.840
Um, for example, uh I spend a lot of time in an in in in LGBTQ spaces, plus spaces.
00:36:08.000 --> 00:36:18.159
Um I spend a lot of time, or I'm the only white person in a group of black and brown people from from uh different cultural backgrounds, the my own socialization.
00:36:18.639 --> 00:36:24.800
And and sometimes I'm in spaces where I will misspeak.
00:36:25.039 --> 00:36:26.800
For example, I might misgender someone.
00:36:26.880 --> 00:36:43.599
That's what I did um last uh uh last year, um, and I misgendered someone in a in a room, and somebody stopped the session and said, um, I'm I'm sorry, but their pronoun is they, it's they them, and you said she.
00:36:44.159 --> 00:36:57.599
And and it was a really useful moment because I was I had kind of used this uh person as an example um because they'd identified as LGBTQ quite early on in the in the group.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:02.719
And so I had you I felt safe to use uh use them as an example, but I used she.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:05.760
And so in the moment, that told me a couple of things.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:21.440
One is I was really used to working online, and it had been a few months, I think, since I'd done something in person, and I was really reliant on seeing he, him or she to guide me all the time, and I just didn't check.
00:37:21.599 --> 00:37:45.519
I just didn't check, I just assumed so that shifted my practice, but also that probably happened because I was in that organization and I was you absorb, whether you're conscious of it or not, you absorb the norms of that organization, you absorb the practices of that organization, and it turned out that it happened to them a number of a number of times whenever they were in that building.
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:58.079
And so it's it was obviously an awful moment for me, in that, but there's there's a sense that things can work through you in the moment and you can't, you don't notice it.
00:37:58.239 --> 00:37:59.599
You just don't notice it happening.
00:37:59.760 --> 00:38:11.519
So one of the strategies that I've started to use, I used with a school, was that I would set some a discussion in person and I and I said, these are some of the things that might happen when we discuss this.
00:38:11.760 --> 00:38:18.639
People might feel really cross, people might really disagree, some people might just look away and check their emails.
00:38:18.800 --> 00:38:23.599
Um, so I put an observer on each table, which is a kind of teachery thing to do, Fern, isn't it?
00:38:25.119 --> 00:38:28.079
So, and then I asked the observers to feed back.
00:38:28.480 --> 00:38:29.519
What did they notice?
00:38:29.679 --> 00:38:32.400
What did they notice happens when we talk about this as a group?
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:42.960
What are the things that are um and they said things like, well, I noticed that when we talked about the race question, everybody looked at the black or brown person in the in the group.
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:48.880
It's a really helpful observation about labor who's expected to speak to issues around race.
00:38:49.039 --> 00:38:54.559
So that you can find out kind of lots of, I think it's all data gathering.
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:58.880
All of it is data gathering, and there isn't any person in the organization who's immune.
00:38:58.960 --> 00:39:03.840
You can kind of transmute and pick up data as you're, you know, as you're going.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:14.320
So I think sometimes the after discussion or uh, you know, of what happened and why, people kind of want something summative and they want it by the end of the facilitated session.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:26.800
But actually, some of the really useful outcomes about not about what we're doing, but why we're doing it and what might be the potential barriers, you know, how are we gonna, how are we gonna bring this about and what's the right strategy?
00:39:26.880 --> 00:39:29.920
Because anybody can say, oh, we want an inclusive environment.
00:39:30.159 --> 00:39:30.639
Great.
00:39:30.960 --> 00:39:46.239
But the how is going to be different for each each organization because each organization's got a different group of people with a different set of socialization, and knowing your organization isn't just the um paper, the data that Sanjay talked about earlier.
00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:51.679
We're really good at kind of reading an organization through quantitative data, but it's also what's happening now.
00:39:51.840 --> 00:40:01.039
How do people talk about risk, or how do they talk about what happened two years ago, or what are the kind of milestones that mean that we can understand this organization now?
00:40:01.119 --> 00:40:11.519
Because that tells you the how, how we're gonna have to move a particular group of people, or we're gonna maybe if we work in this way or that way, it isn't just training, training, training and the belief that that would happen.
00:40:11.599 --> 00:40:15.920
It's also being really specific and strategic about who needs the work.
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:19.840
So, for example, I'll just say one more example and then I'll stop talking.
00:40:20.159 --> 00:40:30.719
For example, when I'm talking about racial representation in an organization, what they say is, oh, we need some really good global majority leaders programs to try and kind of support people.
00:40:30.960 --> 00:40:32.800
And I say, why?
00:40:33.440 --> 00:40:33.920
Why?
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:37.119
Why would because those people are ready to lead.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:42.239
They have plenty of experience, you know, plenty of, they've already done leadership programs.
00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:43.760
That's not the block.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:47.679
The block is not the professionalism of the black and brown people in this organization.
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:50.239
Those people already have qualifications.
00:40:50.400 --> 00:40:53.679
The block is actually the gatekeepers who were letting it in.
00:40:53.840 --> 00:41:00.880
So how how do you need what what happened needs to happen to the existing leadership team in order to change the culture?
00:41:01.039 --> 00:41:06.719
And and in my in my PhD, people found that that that was the block.
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:14.079
It wasn't that people that that people didn't want to lead, it wasn't that there wasn't a pipeline of teachers.
00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:23.920
The the block was the existing organization and how much was it able to flex or feel threatened by somebody by having its kind of comfort disturbed.
00:41:24.320 --> 00:41:27.280
Um anyway, that I I hope that's of use.
00:41:28.800 --> 00:41:31.679
Just what you were saying there, Claire, I think resonated so much.
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:46.960
In part, I'm sure, because I'm a person from a global majority background and have probably experienced some of this, that sense of constantly being emerging, not quite there yet, held in these streams of development programs.
00:41:47.199 --> 00:41:47.760
Exactly that.
00:41:47.920 --> 00:41:49.199
I don't need them, thanks.
00:41:49.280 --> 00:41:53.920
You know, um, um, I have done the work, I do know what I'm doing, I do know what I'm talking about.
00:41:54.000 --> 00:42:06.960
And in a sense, those models can become systems of containment um for because of the challenge that that person or that way of thinking or that approach represents.
00:42:07.119 --> 00:42:29.920
And sometimes it can be quite unconscious and it can be well-intentioned, but misapplied, or you know, um, so I'm sort of wary of condemning that kind of work necessarily, but but I do completely hear what you're saying, and and and actually, you know, yes, in terms of a lived experience, that too has been part of my lived experience, and I'm sure I'm not alone in having experienced that.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:52.559
I think I also agree with you that actually, you know, fundamentally, if we're saying why aren't there uh people from global majority backgrounds, um, people who are um um lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer, whatever the definition might be, um um more women as well, you know, in in in in leadership positions.
00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:53.440
Why is that?
00:42:53.599 --> 00:42:58.480
Well, fundamentally, it's because leadership isn't a safe place to be.
00:42:58.960 --> 00:43:05.199
Because ultimately those leaders also respond to and are managed by other leaders.
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:11.039
Um, so we're talking about this whole sort of systemic hierarchy that's been built up over time.
00:43:11.360 --> 00:43:25.280
Um, and one of the joys of working in the museums is that you immediately understand the concept of museum time, you know, from prehistory um and the Neolithic and way beyond, you know, from from the Big Bang, even, you know, right the way through to today.
00:43:25.440 --> 00:43:35.199
But the important thing in my mind that we also need to do as museums is to think about our place in being part of shaping what the future can be.
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:59.840
And I think once you start to kind of make that pivot as an organization, in the way that you think and approach um um what you do, you do consciously start to think about what leadership changes need to happen because you're thinking much more about the future and what you want that to look like rather than what came before.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:04.639
And I think sometimes it's that's what can sometimes be the cause of the tension.
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:13.599
Yeah, and and that actually links back to um one of Kirsty's comments in the chat, actually, um, which I was gonna ask if she doesn't mind expanding.
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.079
I mean, she was relating to swearing at one point.
00:44:16.239 --> 00:44:29.360
That's one of the reasons why she left corporate, but um do you think that what Sanjay's saying, Kirsty, kind of also links to one of the reasons why you left that kind of corporate life, so to speak, and started working for yourself?
00:44:29.679 --> 00:44:31.280
I didn't realise I was gonna leave.
00:44:31.519 --> 00:44:35.440
I uh accident I went to a workshop for a friend and they said you need an outcome.
00:44:35.519 --> 00:44:36.639
We're working on outcomes.
00:44:36.719 --> 00:44:40.800
And I just made a bold statement that in two years' time I'd be a facilitator.
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:43.760
And I worked on that premise for literally a day.
00:44:44.000 --> 00:44:47.039
And by the time I left, I was like, I do want to do this.
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.599
I was already in the learning and development space uh in a big global corporate.
00:44:51.920 --> 00:44:55.920
Um, and I wonder, I didn't know any of this stuff back then.
00:44:56.000 --> 00:45:02.960
And what I mean by stuff, I mean like the personal development, the the self-awareness, my values, and that all sort of came after.
00:45:03.119 --> 00:45:09.440
Um, but I now go, some people go, I've been out, I've been out, I've been out of corporate for 19 years.
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:14.320
Um, and I sometimes I get asked, would you go back?
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:17.199
I said, I'm just I would just be a nightmare.
00:45:17.360 --> 00:45:18.320
I am chaos.
00:45:18.480 --> 00:45:20.800
I don't want to be in that space.
00:45:21.039 --> 00:45:29.440
Like I would I would be that person who would now just go straight to the person who needs to answer my question versus playing the game of hierarchy.
00:45:29.599 --> 00:45:37.519
I got so many told so many times, Fern, you know, um think about how you manage your stakeholders, think how you manage upwards.
00:45:37.679 --> 00:45:41.679
Um, you you just need to just sort of shape yourself a little bit more.
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:51.360
And and maybe I was getting all these messages in my sort of 20s that yeah, I wasn't the right shape, but back in the 90s, that was the expectation.
00:45:51.599 --> 00:45:58.159
Uh, and when I did finally leave mid-naughties, everyone was like, Oh my god, you're what what is this?
00:45:58.239 --> 00:45:59.199
You've left Corporal.
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:02.079
This this language of freelance did not exist.
00:46:02.719 --> 00:46:04.480
Um, it was fascinating.
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.159
So um, I think that's one of the things I did I have noticed as well, Claire.
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:17.360
I think there's this whole thing as well about the system of the organization as well, holds lots of information and holds the history, holds the energy.
00:46:17.519 --> 00:46:20.800
And and Sanjay, you're saying, I think that's what you're saying as well.
00:46:20.880 --> 00:46:28.480
And and sometimes we forget that, and it's not just the people in the room that we need to talk to, it's how do we include the system?
00:46:28.719 --> 00:46:38.480
And if you have come or your listeners have come across the sort of language of systemic constellations or systemic practices, I I think that shows us a lot of information as well.
00:46:38.639 --> 00:47:12.480
And we should never forget that that it's not just about the people, like what has happened in this business, and I think that's why sometimes change at the senior levels that you're talking we're all talking to is really hard because some of those organizations sort of 200 year years old plus and have been run by white men for the majority of that time, and and the system has potentially a perceived notion that it's under threat because suddenly people are suggesting it's not just the men that can run these operations that there are other people here who have a lot to offer.
00:47:12.559 --> 00:47:16.719
And I wonder whether there's some that's where the the work needs to be done.
00:47:17.039 --> 00:47:25.920
Absolutely, and I think with with museums that we're at a really interesting time um where museums have always been quite static spaces.
00:47:26.079 --> 00:47:45.599
Um, engagement with communities or communities being invited in or having some sense of ownership of those spaces um is is is quite a challenge because you know conservation rules mean that humidity, sound levels, um, um, you know, light exposure, all these sorts of things are are paramount.
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:48.880
It's all about preserving the integrity of the object.
00:47:48.960 --> 00:47:50.639
You know, it's very laudable.
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.559
I'm not I'm not doing that down.
00:47:52.719 --> 00:47:59.199
I completely understand why, um, because we do have a duty of care to maintain that object in a stable condition.
00:47:59.760 --> 00:48:21.039
Um but we also have this duty to open our doors and to um um have engagement with people that in my view it should always be on their terms rather than on our terms, because that's when it becomes something valuable and interesting and sustainable and trustworthy in every sense of that word on both sides.
00:48:21.280 --> 00:48:48.079
And it's really interesting that that we're now in this kind of point where museums, the the the um International Council on Museums has also redefined what they think a museum should be, and it's that real journey from this kind of static position of this is how we've done it for 200 or 250 years, to this is how we could do it by engaging with communities and listening more and opening our doors in different ways.
00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:55.920
Um, and the art funds um uh a prize, it's I think it's the world's largest prize for museums, the museum of the year.
00:48:56.000 --> 00:49:04.320
Um it's£120,000, um, which actually, in the great scheme of things, isn't that much money if you think about it, but you know, it is the world's largest prize for a museum.
00:49:04.480 --> 00:49:11.280
Um, it was awarded to the Plymouth Box um in I think this year 2026, yeah.
00:49:11.519 --> 00:49:25.760
Um, and pretty much all the other museums that were in the running, with the exception perhaps of um VA VNA East and Storehouse, um, were all what I would describe as perhaps more kind of traditional institutions, the National Gallery, the Fitzwilliam, etc.
00:49:26.239 --> 00:49:33.920
Um, what was really revealing was that the box was the one that had said we're putting communities first, everything else is second.
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:48.800
And that signaled, in my mind, a real shift in the way that potentially funders who could be in positions of influencing change in leadership and in structures and in practice could think.
00:49:49.119 --> 00:50:01.440
I think it's really interesting that we're now, you know, if you look at funders like Esme Fairbairn, for example, you know, which is a big funder in the cultural and particularly in the community spaces and that intersection between culture and communities.
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:10.079
Um really interesting how they're prioritizing community involvement from the very start from defining the purpose.
00:50:10.480 --> 00:50:17.679
You know, so so it's just like don't come to us with a bid until you've proved that you've involved the community in making that bid.
00:50:17.840 --> 00:50:22.400
And if you need to, we will give you the seed funding to develop that bid before you come to us.
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:27.679
That's such an intelligent way of approaching how you fund projects.
00:50:27.840 --> 00:50:39.519
Um, and I think that seed change, that shift again is what can lead into this dynamic of how we address leadership and how we facilitate change.
00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:49.840
Um, and it's almost as though it needs to happen as a kind of a um um, I guess a kind of a working coalition across every single part of the ecosystem.
00:50:50.000 --> 00:50:54.639
And the hard part is getting to that that that state, if you like.
00:50:54.960 --> 00:50:55.760
It's really interesting.
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:10.559
I love the fact that you said, you know, that the funding, the the prize winning was based around community, and that comes from conversations, that comes from people developing their awareness through these conversations that we're we're trying to embed within our society.
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:15.360
I'm really conscious of time um here, um, because I know you've given up your mornings.
00:51:15.519 --> 00:51:18.719
So I will bring um this morning's conversation to a close.
00:51:19.039 --> 00:51:23.039
So, having had this conversation, what makes a conversation feel safe?
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:26.000
I think we've actually expanded on this beautifully.
00:51:26.079 --> 00:51:28.159
And it's not just about safety.
00:51:28.320 --> 00:51:51.840
And the word safe can mean so many different things to the facilitator, but also to the people in the room, be that online, in person, how we can build rapport, how we can, you know, make each other at ease, but also like you were saying, um, about kind of leaving the the other stuff at the door and whether we want that to be left at the door or whether we want to be bringing that in as well.
00:51:52.000 --> 00:51:55.519
So I end all of my podcast just with a completing the sentence.
00:51:55.679 --> 00:52:02.559
I've written it around the word safe, um, but it'd be interesting to see where each of you kind of take this sentence.
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.119
Um so if you don't mind, Claire, I'll ask you first.
00:52:05.199 --> 00:52:07.840
Um I know a conversation is safe when.
00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:13.119
Everyone feels able to bring themselves, their whole selves, into the space.
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:15.280
Kirsty, uh, how about you?
00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:23.199
Um, when we all understand the purpose of our time together and also generous listening.
00:52:23.440 --> 00:52:25.360
Yeah, listening is so important.
00:52:25.679 --> 00:52:26.880
Um, thank you, Kirsty.
00:52:26.960 --> 00:52:28.480
And last but not least, Sanjay.
00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:29.199
Gosh.
00:52:29.519 --> 00:52:34.719
When we can be generous and unguarded enough to laugh together.
00:52:35.039 --> 00:52:37.599
It's about that comfort, isn't it?
00:52:37.760 --> 00:52:46.320
That again, you know, bringing your whole self, knowing your purpose, and being able to enjoy the session as well.
00:52:46.480 --> 00:52:57.360
No matter, you know, we've do have some very deep conversations um in some of our spaces, but being able to bring your personality to the table without feeling scared to.
00:52:57.760 --> 00:53:02.159
I think I came into this conversation thinking that safety was something we could create.
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.440
And I've come away wondering whether it's actually something we have to keep paying attention to.
00:53:07.760 --> 00:53:13.679
So who feels able to speak, who feels heard, and whose discomfort are we protecting?
00:53:13.840 --> 00:53:18.800
And who is having to leave part of themselves at the door in order to stay in the room.
00:53:19.280 --> 00:53:22.880
Because perhaps a good conversation doesn't always feel comfortable.
00:53:23.039 --> 00:53:34.079
Sometimes we need to be challenged, sometimes we need to hear something we weren't expecting, and sometimes we need to recognise that the room feels very different depending on who is sitting in it.
00:53:34.239 --> 00:53:45.039
What seems to matter is whether we've created the conditions where people can show up, listen, get things wrong, take responsibility, and still remain part of the conversation.
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:51.519
And thank you to Kirsty, Sanjay, and Claire for helping me think much more deeply about this one.
00:53:51.760 --> 00:53:53.360
And thank you for listening.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:54:00.880
Perhaps continue this conversation by asking who feels safe here and what are the conditions making that possible?
00:54:01.119 --> 00:54:02.960
This is the third conversation.
00:54:03.199 --> 00:54:06.480
The conversations that change us rarely happen first.