What Does Belonging Really Feel Like?

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Belonging is one of those words that sounds simple until you really start talking about it.
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But we all want to feel that we belong somewhere in our families, our friendships, our workplaces, our communities.
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But what happens when belonging comes with conditions?
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When being accepted means changing the way you speak, the way you behave, the parts of yourself you show, or even the parts you learn to hide.
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And is that actually belonging?
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For this conversation, I brought together Aisha Thomas, Domini Chowdry, and Michael Earle to explore belonging through race, class, identity, education, work, family, and community.
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So what emerged was a really important distinction between belonging and fitting in.
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So today we're asking, what does belonging really feel like?
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This is the third conversation.
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Let's see where it takes us.
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So just to intro around the table, we've got Aisha Thomas, who has dedicated much of her work to championing equity, inclusion, and creating spaces where people feel seen, heard, and valued.
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And she brings a thoughtful perspective on identity, belonging, and community.
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So thank you for joining us today.
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We have Domini, who has spent years bringing communities together, celebrating culture and creating opportunities for people to feel represented.
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Her work is rooted in helping people find connection and belonging.
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So thank you, Dom.
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Thank you.
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And Michael, who has spent his career building relationships and supporting organisations and connecting people as well, bringing a perspective on belonging in both professional and personal life.
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So it's lovely to have you here.
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So I'm just going to start us off with a question now.
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Have there been times in your life where you felt you've had to change parts of yourself in order to belong?
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Where do we start?
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Are there times where you haven't had to?
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Probably should be the question.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, um, I'll start off local authority.
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Um as a social well, when I was a social worker, there was this um, how can I say there was sort of like a social work culture about not having lunch breaks and stuff, and I thought I was a bit weird.
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Um and I actually unfortunat I didn't actually um buy into it, I actually sort of pushed against it, but there was this pre-culture that, oh no, you know, social work because we're really hard, we don't go to lunch, and I just thought that's ridiculous.
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So there was that sort of preconception that, yeah, you know, you're gonna have to like fit if you're gonna get on, you're gonna have to fit in.
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Um, and then after that, as I sort of worked my way through and years of looking at the structure and seeing how things went, um, I realized that the management structure was again very sort of fixed, and I thought, and it's one of the reasons I didn't actually apply to be a manager because I knew that I could manage my team the way that they wanted to, so I didn't even bother to apply it to be a manager.
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I just thought that's not gonna work, we're gonna be, I'm not gonna last very long here because I don't manage the way I could see the way that the teams were being managed, and I thought, no, I don't do that.
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Yeah, so I thought there's no point.
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I could see it was really, really fixed, and there weren't many black faces up in management, but the higher you went up, the whiter it got.
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And I just thought, oh, okay.
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So I just kind of like I made a pre-decision and that I did not want to actually fit in, I couldn't fit in there, and it wasn't gonna work for me, so there was no point in me going that far.
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I stayed where I was, so I did what I could on that level, which is um front facing and working with the people directly.
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But I loved that, but I could see that the map the high you went up, it was really, really fixed, and I just thought, no, I'm not even gonna like attempt that.
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I didn't want to mould myself into that because um I couldn't function, so I didn't bother.
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For me, uh throughout most of my life, um, because I grew up in a town where we were the only family of colour, um, so I never felt like I really belonged there.
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So in throughout all my schooling, there were no other global majority children, um, so that was really difficult.
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Um, and then being of mixed heritage, belonging's always been a tricky thing for me because I've never felt that I fully belonged in either of my um parents' heritage.
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Um, and then when I moved to Bristol, that was another big shift and experience because um I was the at the time the only senior leader of colour in state education, and so I didn't feel that um I felt that I didn't really belong, and um uh I had quite a lot of imposter syndrome then, but also had comments about being different from colleagues.
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It's quite interesting because I think I've had it, and I'm I'm looking back and I'm going, there were probably two key moments.
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The first was school, yeah, but with good intention, my mum essentially shipped me out of the community.
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So she was like, you know, you need to go to a school where I think you would do academically um better if you weren't around your own community, and I didn't understand it at the time, so there's a lot of probably deep wounds that probably won't even fit into a podcast like this to discuss as to why that happened.
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But I went to a school in South Gloucestershire, so similar to DOM, I'm in an experience where I'm one of very few children from the global majority, but you don't realise that you're different, but you do realize because of the things that are said.
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So you walk down the corridor, here comes trouble.
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Um, it's PE, and I'm thinking I need to like wash and like moisturize my skin, and the teacher's like, hurry up, why are you doing that?
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Or there are certain things I would say, and it's like you know, you're not pronouncing your words properly, and I'm and I'm realising all of a sudden this environment that's supposed to make me belong in the future doesn't make me feel like I belong right now.
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Yeah, so I didn't know at the time it was racialized, I didn't have the language for it, so I'm making the meaning now as an adult, but at the time as an 11-year-old, you're just trying to work out why do I feel this feeling?
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I didn't really know.
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But you fast forward, and I'm um I go into law and I'm at a law firm, and then it wasn't so much race, it was class.
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So all of a sudden, everyone's oh you're you know, we're gonna go into Goldbrick House.
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I'm like, where's that?
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Yeah, and then you go and it's like, Oh, you have to buy a round.
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What's a round?
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And then the bill comes, and I'm like, So I have to pay for this, me on this little money, and I'm thinking the money you want to spend on one round of drinks, that's like a food shop, yeah.
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And and I'm being looked at like I'm losing it because I don't understand that this is the etiquette of the environment that you're in, and I'm going, I'm committing now to a profession that I'm not sure that I belong here.
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Academics is not enough, socially, politically, financially, I just was not aligning.
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So I'd probably say those were the two most poignant moments where I felt like I didn't belong, and yet these were spaces that were were hopefully going to provide me with future belonging, but in the moment it wasn't there.
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Yeah, that's quite interesting actually, because it goes along to the education side of things, and you know, you say how it changed almost from the racial belonging to the class, and that's something I've experienced through my career as well.
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I've come from single parent family working class, you know, all of those different things, and I've taught in an independent school, and never quite felt like I was good enough or educated enough to be because I didn't go to Oxford or Cambridge, and my degree was in art, and you know, it's like I'm like art teacher, you know, that kind of and you just think, well, actually, I'm still educating the same people, I'm still in the same place as you.
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Um, and it is interesting how belonging can be in so many different parts of our life and mean so many different things.
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Um, I hear what you said and actually had similar experiences, I think, but I think I've always known that my lack of belonging um or sense of belonging is racialized because um growing up the N-word was used a lot towards me and other slurs and so on, and um so I knew from a young age that that there was that racial element and it was really obvious, but then as I got older, it became more about microaggressions, um it was less overt, and then class did factor in because one of the things that really struck with stayed with me is when I was um on a um program, an advanced headship program to fast track to become a head teacher, and I was told by um an executive head of some trust that I would never make it as a head teacher because of the way I speak, because my speech was too working class, um, and so therefore I could never become a head teacher, and so I think class does play a huge factor in in in British society and making us feel like we don't belong.
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But you know what the funny thing is about it, it's like the examples are there, but you don't necessarily have the language for it, and so I guess the race was always there, but I didn't know that that was what it actually meant, if that makes sense.
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So the way in which I can articulate it now and understand it from a systemic position, from an institutional interaction, I can I can intellectualize it and all that now.
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But at the moment, when a child says to you, you know, you can't come to my house because you're black, and that happens in school, I didn't know it was called racism.
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No, right, yeah, I know it happened, but I didn't know it was racism.
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Yeah, couldn't label it.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Like I didn't so the experiences were there, yeah, I just couldn't articulate why they were there or what they meant, and a lot of my meaning making came so much later, but I suppressed so much of it.
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Do you think kids nowadays would know that though, as well?
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So, say an 11-year-old was told you can't come to my house because you're black, do you think they would know that that was racism without going home and telling their parent and then them explaining it?
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We were talking earlier about how racism is taught in schools.
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And I honestly, as much as I'm educating my own children, I'm not sure they would pick that up.
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I don't think as quickly as race.
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I think some would, I think some wouldn't.
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I think it's all contextual, yeah.
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Depends on the child, their exposure, what they've been taught, what their parents all of those elements are, yeah.
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And you know, and I I just think it's not all down to the teachers because I've been one and I know there's there's a lot to be put on you as a teacher, but it is a lot on parents that we as a generation need to be educating our children as well on that, and learning the words to use because I know when I was growing up, I was never taught the right words that I should be using, and I still don't know.
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My parents' generation, they haven't got a clue about the right words, that's for sure.
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So it's it's you know how things are changing.
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That's a difference between like fitting in and belonging.
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Yes, that's yeah.
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That's actually the quote I use.
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I'm gonna read you this is my tagline for my business, yeah.
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Um, and it's something I really believe in, so that's why I came up with it.
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I said, belonging isn't about fitting in, it's about being fully seen in your authenticity and still invited to stay.
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Yeah, and to me that's really important because I always felt like the authentic version of who I am was never really accepted, and so many different spaces.
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I was having to code switch, actually.
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That's one of the main things.
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Um and actually now, as I got older, I I want to be me, yeah, and that has affected everything, it's affected my work, it's affected my relationships, my friendships, everything.
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Yeah, because now I'm done with not being the authentic version of me.
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Yeah, um, and it's either you accept the authentic version of me, yeah, or you go away because you're not gonna be part of my life, and and I'm so I'm almost creating my own belonging in that way.
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I think.
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Yeah, um, fitting in is damaging.
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Yeah, fitting in is damaging because, in order to fit in, either you have to squeeze something or cut something off for it to fit in.
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So any kind of fitting in is gonna damage you.
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That's that's actually a really good way to put it.
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That's a good way to put it though, and I think that's something that you know I've struggled with growing up as well.
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Is I'm very Domini knows very good at masking, fitting in, doing what you're told, those kind of things, and actually it that's a that's a really valuable insight of how you know we can define that because I it is now what makes it really hard is that, and I'm being guilty of this as a parent, if I'm being truthful, is that you are raised to believe that you have to do that in order to survive.
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So, you know, as a black child, even if it wasn't consciently, consciously or explicitly explained why that idea of you need to work harder, you need to behave in this particular way, you need to think about the way you pronounce your words, the way you dress, even when I used to chemically straighten my hair, like all of those elements were fitting in to try and have the best version of my life that I could have in proximity to perceivably what whiteness was, but they didn't necessarily know that that's what they were striving for overtly, but it was certainly an experience they were trying to achieve.
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And I'm talking about my parents at this point in time, um, and quite specifically my parents generated.
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I think my grandparents had a different plan to what my parents have had, and they're in that weird generation where they didn't come over with a plan, but they also didn't really understand what they would be doing now that they're here and born here, and what they now need to do with this experience.
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So, some of the lessons of the past, in order to get through and survive, have just been passed on but with no healing, yeah.
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Yeah, and I think you're right, there's a whole generation that came here, migrated here, and thought assimilation was the best way, yeah, and the only way.
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And I saw that in my parents' generation.
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Um, and it's don't stick your head above the parapet, don't open your let's not talk about this, let's not talk about that, you know, just get on and do the job.
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We're lucky that we're here.
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Be grateful, yeah.
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Be grateful, yeah.
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And and that I think has passed down, unfortunately.
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Um, you know, um, yeah.
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And I'm interested in you know what all of you do, you know, with regards to community and work and how that relates to the topic of belonging.
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So, Domini, you had your quote that you just mentioned, you know, what are you, you know, what what you're striving to do through your consultancy?
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Uh, I know you do a lot of work in education, you know, how does that resonate with the theme of belonging?
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Well, for me, um, I do a lot of work obviously around um anti-racism, but I also do a lot of work around children with special educational needs, and they're another group, um, whatever their heritage, where I feel society doesn't make them feel that they belong, um, and the more um high needs they are, the worse it is.
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Yeah.
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Um, and so it's really important to me that um we have the skills as a society to enable all children to feel like they belong, because I know what it's like to feel like you don't belong as a child, yeah.
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And so unfortunately, uh too often in schools, it is children with send who are let down because people haven't got the skills or the training to make sure everyone feels like they're belonging, yeah.
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If they're neurodiverse, for example.
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Um, so that's really important to me.
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But then, of course, there's um uh the work around race as well.
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That's really significant.
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Again, young people made to feel that um, and they don't like it's then like you said, Aisha, you can't quite articulate why, you know, and they can't quite articulate why, but they know that they're the ones that keep getting sent out of lessons, yeah.
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Um, you know, and they see that their peers are not being sent out of lessons, but they're constantly being sent out of lessons, told to sit outside and wait for somebody to come fetch them or being suspended or whatever, you know, and addressing those issues because the minute you suspend a child, you have rejected them, yeah.
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Yeah, you have rejected them.
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What does that do for that child's sense of belonging?
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Yeah.
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Um, so I do a lot of work around that, and then more recently, my community work is about South Asian heritage and the fact that you know, I've been told by hundreds of children in Bristol alone that they don't feel um that their heritage and culture is represented, so they don't feel that belonging, yeah, even though they've been born here, their parents actually were born here, and so that's the community work I do as well.
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Yeah, and it's all so important as well.
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Michael, what what kind of things are you doing with the theme of belonging?
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Because I know there's lots of different things that you're up to.
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Yeah, mainly um, I'm gonna focus on the mental health work that I do with Nilari.
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So I'm very blessed to be with them, with those guys against a black-led organisation.
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So it's funny we talk about belonging.
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It feels really good to be able to go to a work environment and just bring everything with you, just like not have to think, oh, I'm going to work now.
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And it's and I know it's not normal for everyone, but we're just it's just every now and again I have to say to myself, this is real privilege, you know.
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I know I can I I talk with my CEO every day.
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Yeah, my CEO makes me tea.
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Yeah.
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There are not many organisations that oh yeah, my CEO makes me tea.
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Um, she's really accessible.
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The staff that we work with, we have a very diverse team of people.
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So on the mental health side, getting back to your question, I'm sorry to stray it off a little bit there.
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It's about trying to make people, you know, global majority of people feel comfortable accessing mental health services because mental health is something that we don't like to talk about.
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It's like don't talk about mental health, you know, if you don't have emotions and stuff.
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So allowing people to actually come into a space where they can feel that they belong, seeing practitioners that look like them, sound like them is yeah, amazing, it's an amazing feeling.
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Um, I was dealing with a client yesterday, um, black male came in, and he was just able to talk and not be told to say, I don't understand you, or I can't understand your act because of what you you know, having people come back and say, What did you say?
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I didn't understand that.
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He was just able to talk and just get it all out, just like you know, just be himself and he was apologize.
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It's funny, he started with apologizing.
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I said, You have to apologize.
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This is how you feel.
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He said, Oh my sorry, and he kept it I'm sorry.
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So you can see how when they're accessing services that are not, you know, um prepared, that there's there was that thing, oh I've got to be careful I've got to be careful, I've got to hold back.
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Because if you don't you might get labelled as a black an angry black man, yeah.
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So all the stuff, and so you could see this, I don't know, no, no, it's it's okay, you can just be yourself here.
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And at the end of the session, you said he said thank you, and that's what we're here for.
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So it's creating that space where people can just be themselves and say what they need to say and understand that because when people say, Oh, you know, talking therapists, what's that about?
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It's like it's having a conversation, and the the biggest thing about the work that we do, and I've said it loads of times to our CEO and colleagues, is that people have a chance to literally that's like the first time they've been heard without somebody trying to jump in and say, Oh, well, you know, because you said that we're gonna do this.
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So it's it's it's such a simple thing, but it's really powerful, and there are so many, um I'm just discovering there are so many people who just have not been heard but had the chance to speak without being interrupted, which is being heard.
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That's a small definition.
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But it's it's quite frightening that people are accessing services and they're not being served heard or seen, which is the other one.
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When I'm when I mean seen, I mean by they're not being acknowledged as the person as in front of a black person or Asian person, um, someone with disabilities, they're not it's like they go into a service and there's like a pre-conceived right, you come in, you're a black man, no one to do with you.
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It's like that's already happened before they've said anything.
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And so if you keep getting experiences like that, you're gonna just think, what's the point?
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And so you're not gonna want to access services, and then you'd be labelled as hard to reach.
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I'll stop there.
00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:20.160
An earlier conversation we had was about why was asking for help so hard, and one key thing that came up was that because quite a lot of us, the first time you ask for help, you get shut down, so then you think, Well, why bother?
00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:30.799
And that is such a common theme, and like you say, that's that perception when you walk through the door is the first thing they're gonna look at, and that's you know, it's shocking, but it's true, isn't it?
00:21:30.880 --> 00:21:37.359
You know, and Aisha, you do lots of yeah, I mean, your um portfolio is great.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:38.640
What's going on with you at the moment?
00:21:38.720 --> 00:21:47.440
And why I do lots of different types of work, but I think probably the two most significant things I'm doing at the moment, which I talked to you about earlier, is one is my doctorate.
00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:59.680
So my doctoral studies at the moment is looking at the relationship between um racialization, education, and trauma, and recognize that the fact that this identity and meaning making that people are doing later.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:07.279
In life, actually, the vehicle of education is traumatizing people and it's not being recognized.
00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:19.759
So, unlike in policing or um social services, or even like uh the NHS, there is an element of recognizing some of the things that you will hear and learn professionally may impact your mental health and well-being.
00:22:20.240 --> 00:22:22.240
As an educator, that doesn't happen.
00:22:22.400 --> 00:22:31.839
So, the very nature that I am racialized as black and I might have to hold space for racial racism, I might have to deal with safeguard and disclosures, I may have to teach topics.
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:42.480
There is no precedent set that says this is how you therefore support educators who may, for the first time, activate trauma that's been laying dormant that they didn't even know was there.
00:22:43.359 --> 00:22:45.599
And so that's really what my research is about.
00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:53.599
And in recognizing that also people for the first time are realizing, therefore, where they're they even sit in the spectrum of racialized belonging.
00:22:54.000 --> 00:22:59.599
So this idea of being feeling like, am I black enough for the community that I'm trying to support?
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:06.559
Yeah, or am I too far away from what they expect me to be to be part of this sense of identity and community?
00:23:06.720 --> 00:23:18.000
So the second part of my work that relates to that is we've been running these sessions called Unload to Uplift, and they're primarily for marginalised individuals who feel they need to unload the thing they're carrying in order to uplift themselves.
00:23:18.079 --> 00:23:30.880
So I do it in partnership with an emotion coach, and the idea behind it is giving people space to be heard to say for the first time, I might be racialised as black, but I don't feel like I am because I don't fulfil these ideas of blackness.
00:23:31.039 --> 00:23:31.359
Yeah.
00:23:32.079 --> 00:23:47.279
And you'd be surprised at things that people therefore want to share and talk about, but felt that they couldn't because for fear of being cancelled or for fear of not feeling that they were a part of something that they should be a part of purely because they've got the same melanin in their skin.
00:23:47.440 --> 00:24:03.839
And so for me, this kind of avenue that I've been drawn down was never part of the original plan of the work of representation matters, but it's felt like a necessary evolution to hold people who have never been held in this type of conversation in this way.
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:15.200
Even though I haven't finished per se the work of change and shifting, it's completely changed my methodology, it's changed the way I train, it's changed the way I deliver, it's changed the way I speak, it's even changed the way I hold space.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:28.799
And one of the things I recently did for the NHS is I did this e-learning package for them on cultural humility because what sometimes happens for us, particularly as um professionals in the space, is we gain knowledge and we stop at this idea of we now have awareness.
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:32.960
I know this thing, I'm now literate in this thing, and I'm now going to apply it.
00:24:33.279 --> 00:24:44.640
But we forget that element of cultural sensitivity and humility to go back and recognize, but the person who's supposed to be benefiting from your new gained knowledge may not be just because you now feel like you know.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:25:02.640
Because this is more about you intellectually trying to demonstrate that you feel you've been on a journey, or is this to Michael's point actually allowing the person to be heard and not interrupted and even still challenge you on what you might be perceiving to be true because you've had some training at some point?
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:11.039
Yeah, yeah, and we all know that training can be very ineffective sometimes, so it's kind of taking that further.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:15.920
I mean we've talked about things that you might have had to change.
00:25:16.960 --> 00:25:24.720
What about like when you're actually with your family, when you are at home with your family, do you have that sense of belonging in your family?
00:25:24.880 --> 00:25:27.200
Do you do your children feel like they're belonging?
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:28.400
Is there things you know?
00:25:28.559 --> 00:25:32.880
Obviously, I don't know what your relationships are like at home.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:38.160
Um but thinking about family itself, do you get that sense of belonging there?
00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:46.799
What I would say is this it's all contextual, and I would say my family's split, and I think that's what makes it very difficult.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:51.519
Yeah, I would say there are parts of my family who let's just take what I do.
00:25:51.759 --> 00:25:54.559
There are parts of my family who think, well, it is absolute nonsense.
00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.440
Yeah, what on earth people pay you for that?
00:25:57.599 --> 00:25:59.279
Yeah, are you serious?
00:25:59.599 --> 00:26:05.599
Like they cannot even believe that it is a thing, and even in cases they've done the kind of but all lives matter thing.
00:26:05.839 --> 00:26:20.319
Like I've heard that from my own family members, but equally, I've got family members who go, This is like you're you're you're destined to do this, like you're doing in their mind, like God's work, like you're doing the thing that needs to be done to perhaps make things better for the next generation.
00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.680
But so I always feel there's this tension and pull in terms of belonging and identity and connection.
00:26:25.920 --> 00:26:32.880
But I think probably the thing that I will share that I found the hardest is me going on the journey to understand my true heritage.
00:26:33.119 --> 00:26:42.400
So I appreciate that I'm Jamaican heritage, and I spent a lot of time exploring Jamaica and connecting with that side of my family and wanting to understand that truth because even that was distant.
00:26:42.880 --> 00:26:45.759
My grandparents were happy to leave that behind, yeah.
00:26:46.480 --> 00:26:54.799
But also now understanding the African identity, and so I've spent a lot of time travelling around Africa trying to understand where those connection points are.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:26:59.359
I probably will never know truly where we come from, but I've tried to find connection and understanding.
00:26:59.599 --> 00:27:05.839
What's been really difficult is sometimes the rejection of my own community, almost going, Why are you doing that?
00:27:06.000 --> 00:27:07.759
Why are you doing that in the world?
00:27:07.839 --> 00:27:10.240
Why would you and I'm like, but do you not want to know?
00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:11.279
Do you not want to feel it?
00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:20.240
And for me, if I'm being really honest with you, I have felt my most sense of connection and belonging when I have been on the soil in Africa.
00:27:21.119 --> 00:27:31.839
Even though I couldn't tell you literally where I connect to, but when I'm on that soil and I'm there, that's when my nervous system just goes and I'm like, oh, I'm home.
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:32.319
Yeah.
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:42.000
Even though it's not literally my home, but it feels like home, and that's something I can't quantify or explain, but it's also something that they don't understand because it's not the work or the journey they've been on.
00:27:42.079 --> 00:27:48.559
So I often feel like yes, I belong to a family, but my experience is outside of their sense of what they believe belonging is.
00:27:48.799 --> 00:27:55.759
See, I I'm similar in that um my family, extended family, a lot of them don't get why I do what I do.
00:27:56.000 --> 00:28:03.599
Um, but also I think for me, um, I've never felt a sense of belonging because of being mixed heritage.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:15.599
Um, it's kind of really hard to realize that your extended family orientalize you and other you um because you aren't completely the same as them, yeah.
00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:19.200
Um, and I've spent my whole life navigating that.
00:28:19.440 --> 00:28:26.000
I've kind of accepted it now, but what I think is worse is that they don't recognise they're doing that, yeah.
00:28:26.240 --> 00:28:35.839
If they acknowledged it, um tried to work on it, maybe that would be different, but actually not recognizing it, I think, is harder.
00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:42.240
And when I then bring it up, oh, you're making a big deal out of nothing, no, that's not true, etc.
00:28:42.400 --> 00:28:42.799
etc.
00:28:43.200 --> 00:28:49.759
And it's again it's microaggressions, and getting microaggressions from your own family is really challenging.
00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:58.559
So it's like um when I manage to successfully communicate in Bengali, everyone is like eyes out the top of their head, you know.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:00.799
Why do you not think I can speak Bengali?
00:29:01.119 --> 00:29:07.839
You know, um, or if I cook a a dish that's very traditional, how did you learn to do that?
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:16.000
You know, these kinds of things, and you know, so that all those tiny little things, you know, they accumulate, don't they?
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:17.440
Me, right.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:20.880
I need to go back to my sibling stuff because I'm the youngest of six.
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:21.359
Wow.
00:29:21.519 --> 00:29:23.680
I know that was a busy house.
00:29:26.000 --> 00:29:30.000
Yeah, so yeah, there was, yeah, it's it's it's it's oh god.
00:29:30.160 --> 00:29:33.279
Yeah, there was a time where I think all six of us were going to high school.
00:29:33.519 --> 00:29:33.920
Wow.
00:29:34.079 --> 00:29:36.799
I know we lived in a terrace house in Grangetown.
00:29:38.319 --> 00:29:38.799
Yeah.
00:29:40.559 --> 00:29:54.960
It was um it was it was look looking back on it, it was like you know, because like we all do, like we look back and we laugh, but at the time it was like really quite it was like full on, you know, because if you've got to let you didn't get breakfast, it was last night it was just gone.
00:29:55.200 --> 00:29:59.759
And my lovely sister used to keep ages in the bathroom, you shall remain nameless.
00:30:00.240 --> 00:30:01.920
Um but yeah, all the stuff.
00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:03.920
So feel belonging, yeah.
00:30:04.000 --> 00:30:05.920
I I love my family, I'll kill for them, no problem.
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:07.039
Drop a hat.
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:13.920
Um, but because I was the youngest, what I had difficulties with, and maybe we identify with people now, is the being hurt thing.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:19.599
Because like by the time my opinion came into play, like it was all everything was all sorted, so I was like, who are you?
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:26.079
You know, and there was there's a five-year gap between my the last sister and me.
00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:31.920
So like there's this physical gap as well, because like they probably all thought it was gonna be five, and then oh, Michael comes along.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:35.839
So because my brother was saying, Oh, yeah, you've got you're like five like a five-year gap.
00:30:36.079 --> 00:30:43.359
So uh I come along at the end, and I really did have a struggle, sort of like being heard as I was growing up.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:30:48.079
It was quite I'm looking back at it now and thinking, oh yeah, okay, yeah, that was that was the thing for me.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:31:05.279
So belonging, yes, but being heard and having your opinion valued um was always an ongoing issue, and I even sometimes now with you know, even being 60, being the youngest, it's like that's a weird thing to get your head around.
00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:14.400
But it's like sometimes when we're having conversations, it's like I can hear some of the elders saying stuff, and I'm thinking, no, you're not gonna shut my opinion now.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:26.880
It's like you're getting into the sort of like you're the baby mode in the conversations we're having, yeah, and I find myself having to sort of assert and say, no, you're not gonna have to go down that road, no, no, let's let's like back it up a bit.
00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:38.480
So even now, at this age, it's still sort of like trying to find when it comes to being intellectual conversations and stuff, it's like, are you really seeing me for like who I have become?
00:31:38.880 --> 00:31:41.599
Or are you still looking at me as like, oh the baby brother?
00:31:41.759 --> 00:31:44.799
So I'm I still have to deal with that little bit of belonging.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:47.039
It's not a massive thing, but sometimes it can it flares up.
00:31:47.119 --> 00:31:49.519
It's like oh we saw probably doing this.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:53.440
So yeah, it it's an interesting dynamic.
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:59.039
It doesn't happen very often, we don't get together all loads, but when we do, it kind of like its head up again.
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:09.680
Yeah, I guess it it links into that representation of you representing yourself and you know being her, being you know, representing myself, I'm in my family.
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.200
Yeah, but why am I having to look at it?
00:32:11.359 --> 00:32:13.039
And especially now, like I'm an adult.
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:17.039
I'm a grown up now, you know.
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.119
It's a weird dynamic, yeah.
00:32:19.200 --> 00:32:20.160
It is a weird dynamic.
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:24.559
Family, I mean, families are a whole can of worms a lot of the time.
00:32:24.720 --> 00:32:32.960
I mean, mine is another story as well, but like I don't really have any contact with any of my extended family, so I don't actually know a lot.
00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:39.200
You know, I know I was born in Bristol, I knew my parents grew up in Kingswood and you know, things like that.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:41.839
But apart from that, that's all I really know.
00:32:42.799 --> 00:32:46.799
Um yeah, families are definitely a different one.
00:32:47.039 --> 00:32:52.720
But thinking about that representation, with your um work that you do for representation matters.
00:32:52.880 --> 00:32:57.440
What's the kind of main focus that you you know that you drive for with that?
00:32:58.079 --> 00:32:59.680
It's it's changed, it's evolved.
00:32:59.759 --> 00:33:11.039
But I think when I first started, it literally was we need the representation, like there isn't the visual manifestation of people's lived experiences, particularly from an education lens.
00:33:11.279 --> 00:33:17.359
I really felt that there was like one example, and you have to be the example for all every community, and and that's what you had to do.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:26.559
And you know, to Dom's point, being you know, the only leader at a time, Dom's then trying to represent everyone else's community as well as her own, like it's ridiculous.
00:33:26.720 --> 00:33:29.599
So I think initially it was almost a bit of a numbers game.
00:33:29.759 --> 00:33:39.839
Can we physically just get more people in the profession and can we recognise that more children need to have that um lived experience and have those role models and real models in front of them?
00:33:40.160 --> 00:33:54.160
But what became quite clear and quite apparent, as we know, a saying that we talk about is that skin folk don't make kin folk, so just because somebody looks like you, you cannot assume that your values and the behaviours that sit under your values are now aligned.
00:33:54.640 --> 00:34:05.599
And so that's where the work really had to evolve, yeah, because it could no longer be about representation alone, that sometimes actually could create inequity and inequality.
00:34:05.839 --> 00:34:11.119
What you actually needed to recognise is yes, there's representation, but actually, is it authentic?
00:34:11.280 --> 00:34:14.559
Actually, how is it affecting an individual's mental health and well-being?
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:22.480
And do they genuinely feel like they have a sense of um being heard and connected and valued for who they are beyond ticking a box for somebody else?
00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:24.960
Yeah, were they a pawn for somebody?
00:34:25.039 --> 00:34:28.159
You know, how are they really being utilized in the space?
00:34:28.239 --> 00:34:32.880
So I would say our work now is about stretching you and holding you to account.
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:37.840
Yeah, and so we talk to people a lot about this idea of people having intellectual tantrums.
00:34:38.000 --> 00:34:44.079
So when you really hold people to things, because you know, someone said to me earlier, you know, what's your biggest barrier to the work you do?
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:45.519
I said it's disbelief.
00:34:46.000 --> 00:35:05.199
I cannot do the work I do if you don't believe that this exists as a truth, even if it's not your truth, if you do not believe that there is a space, a time where what I'm talking about actually exists, then that's the biggest barrier because we can't even begin to get into the discussion points and where we're we're starting from because you don't believe that this is real.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:32.960
Yeah, so then you're having an intellectual tantrum because your brain's going, no, no, no, no, no, I don't believe in what you're saying, and then you've got your amygdala's kicking in because you're perceiving threats, so you're spending all of your time trying to defend your position, then just being open and considering that this is an experience that I'm having right now doesn't make you a bad person because it's not yours, but let's just be open, and so a lot of our work now has actually had to go backwards, if I'm honest with you.
00:35:33.760 --> 00:35:40.000
It you know, it used to feel in 2020 our work was a little bit like um a sprint.
00:35:40.400 --> 00:35:45.840
Come in and do anti-racism work, and you just go straight in, you there's no warm-up, just go in, get it done.
00:35:45.920 --> 00:35:47.840
And it felt like people were better prepared for that.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:56.480
Now, to use that same analogy, people are getting a stitch because they've not done the work beforehand to be ready to run, so that pain is there, the stretch isn't there.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:06.559
So now I feel like a lot of our work, to some people's disappointment and frustration, is back to are you even ready for the conversation?
00:36:06.880 --> 00:36:07.119
Yeah.
00:36:07.280 --> 00:36:10.800
So I've now gone back to the art of can we converse?
00:36:10.880 --> 00:36:14.320
Yeah, what does it mean to talk, disagree, and still be okay on the other side?
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:23.599
Yeah, and so whilst I am arguably peasing carroting in anti-racism work, I wouldn't say it's always overtly commissioned as anti-racism now.
00:36:23.840 --> 00:36:42.400
That's really interesting, actually, and that links really well to kind of my thoughts behind starting this podcast was that encouraging that conversing, and that is what people need to do more in order to understand, to learn, to develop, to you know, build communities that matter.
00:36:42.559 --> 00:36:48.239
And I love that saying that you said a minute ago about what was it, kinship oh, skin folk and make info, yeah.
00:36:48.480 --> 00:37:06.320
Like you cannot rely purely on, and that's for you know, I'm talking about race, but that could be for sexuality, gender, mental health experience, whatever it is, is we cannot make assumptions because we've had a similar quote unquote experience that it's going to be the same because it probably isn't.
00:37:06.559 --> 00:37:10.960
Yeah, and that's where people get frustrated and upset with each other.
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:21.039
We can both have a struggle, but the struggle manifests itself differently, and also how we handle that struggle is often down to who we are, not necessarily the experience in itself.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:43.679
Yeah, see that really rings true for me with my work because um I, for the last 20 years that I've been in Bristol, have almost felt like I've done a lot more work around anti-racism with the black community because my own South Asian communities have not been open to it, um, and those conversations have just gone on a dead end, you know.
00:37:43.920 --> 00:38:05.519
Whereas um, you know, working in the schools that I've worked in, I've engaged a lot with parents and um children and so on, and community organizations that represent the black community, um, um, with Bristol um being the demographic it is, and um, and that's been felt felt actually quite a welcoming space.
00:38:05.679 --> 00:38:17.760
Um, I've built relationships and felt that I um could be in those spaces, but now I'm reaching a point where I'm I'm feeling like it shouldn't be me.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:35.280
Um, and actually my focus should be more on the South Asian communities, and that's why you know I've done the whole South Asian Heritage Month and created that program, and um, and now I'm starting to find people that want to have that conversation and sit with me.
00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:52.480
I will say there's a generational difference though, so it is people that are younger than me that want to do that work, and you know, um, but and so that's the challenge, and yet the people that are younger they're passionate, but they don't necessarily have the influence.
00:38:52.880 --> 00:39:03.360
The older people um have the influence, they're the civic leaders, the community leaders, and so on, and it has been harder sometimes to engage them.
00:39:03.679 --> 00:39:09.760
So definitely um my work has evolved in that sense as well.
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.440
Yeah, what about you, Michael?
00:39:11.519 --> 00:39:14.719
Because I know that you hold a lot of spaces for men's groups as well.
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:19.280
How do you is there any themes around belonging within that?
00:39:19.519 --> 00:39:27.119
There is, and I'm gonna look at the point from having men's groups because they're they're not there's not many spaces for men.
00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:34.480
So, what I've what we've been trying to do at Nilari and and myself is actually try to do lots of collaborations with other organisations as well.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:38.159
So we started something up with Trinity and we called it Men's Space.
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:59.760
We did a little pilot which has ended, but it was just literally creating it was three hours in the afternoon where men could just come, men, any men of any background could come together, I'm gonna show 18 outwards, and just spend some time doing sort of um going out in nature, you know, looking at trees and stuff, and just connecting, connecting and talking, and it worked really, really well as a little pilot.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:12.800
So it's about just trying to find um more or provide more spaces where men can just come together and just be because I don't think there's a lot of that for men, you know, it's just like there's lots of lady stuff as well.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:14.320
Hey, can't get me wrong, it's great.
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:28.480
But for men, it's just like nothing for us, and so what usually happens is that as I say to some of the clients over, they men seem to go from one event or one crisis to another, they just like you know, becoming torture.
00:40:28.719 --> 00:40:29.760
Oh, this happened, that happened.
00:40:29.840 --> 00:40:51.440
It's like wow, it's like and it's all be well, part of it is because what's what is really there available for men, apart from you know the pubs and the other places, but nothing creative, and so it's about trying to provide creative spaces for men, you know, for so men can actually discover that yeah, I'm there's things that I can do, I am creative.
00:40:51.519 --> 00:40:58.639
So all that stuff is laying dormant in them, it's not being explored, it's not being tapped into, and again getting labels, you know.
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:14.400
Oh, they're lazy, they're just hanging around, they're just and so we're trying to sort of like no, let's we've let's actually re-redress this, you know, and so just change the labels because men are like walking around with lots of posting notes on loads of labels on, you know, they'll do this that are.
00:41:14.639 --> 00:41:18.400
Do you have many men that are willing to join?
00:41:18.719 --> 00:41:27.119
Because I I do find like in the the a lot of the men I know that would really benefit from going to a lot of those communities wouldn't go.
00:41:27.199 --> 00:41:27.440
Yeah.
00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:27.920
Right.
00:41:28.000 --> 00:41:29.599
No, now this is the challenge.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:29.840
Yeah.
00:41:30.079 --> 00:41:30.960
This is the challenge.
00:41:31.039 --> 00:41:38.880
And I think what is what I'm discovering is that because there haven't been the spaces in the past, when they're presented now, it's like, oh, what's this?
00:41:38.960 --> 00:41:40.719
It's like not used to this.
00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:41.599
This is a bit.
00:41:41.760 --> 00:41:44.239
So we're having to at the moment push past that.
00:41:44.320 --> 00:41:46.400
We had to have to keep we have to keep presenting it.
00:41:46.719 --> 00:41:49.440
It's like trying to get someone used to something they've never seen before.
00:41:49.519 --> 00:41:53.599
You have to keep presenting it to them, presenting it, presenting it before they even have a little look.
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:57.679
So we're in that stage of saying, yeah, this is men's face just for does anyone else say?
00:41:57.760 --> 00:41:58.400
No, it's just for men.
00:41:58.559 --> 00:42:00.000
And so you can talk about anything you like.
00:42:00.239 --> 00:42:01.599
Talk about it, you can have a cup of tea.
00:42:01.760 --> 00:42:03.039
I haven't got it, no, it's free.
00:42:03.199 --> 00:42:08.719
So it's like you've got to like re-sort of you know, present and say, Yeah, this this is for you.
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.920
Because like it's just not it's not been around, so it's not used to it.
00:42:12.400 --> 00:42:20.239
So it's we're on that journey of letting men know that yeah, there is there are spaces for you, there are people that want to listen to you, there is time.
00:42:20.639 --> 00:42:24.079
So it's it's a great journey, but it's the beginning of that journey.
00:42:24.159 --> 00:42:30.239
Um, but yeah, there are there are men out there who are taking it up, so it's like gotta keep going.
00:42:30.559 --> 00:42:37.920
There's another group in the society who where I question how much they feel a sense of belonging, and I think that's the elderly.
00:42:38.159 --> 00:42:47.039
Um I I don't know that in this society that we make our elderly feel like they really belong.
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:53.199
Um, you know, I don't think they're given much purpose or much credibility, you know.
00:42:53.360 --> 00:42:58.480
Um, and I think they can offer a huge amount um wisdom and so on.
00:42:58.559 --> 00:43:06.559
But when you go to say, I don't know, more traditional societies, you see that you see a totally different way in which the elderly are treated.
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:12.639
But here they're almost seen a bit like a drain on society, but also they're with community.
00:43:12.800 --> 00:43:29.920
So having been to Jamaica in the last um couple of months, what's been so interesting is you know, you're going into the community, and that what we perceivably say is elderly here isn't considered to be elderly, we don't use that language, but they're also sat with the young people, we're all sat together, there is no kind of hierarchy.
00:43:30.079 --> 00:43:39.599
Whereas I couldn't imagine like my nan being sat at the same event as my son unless it was forced, like a family forced, we're going to this, yeah.
00:43:39.760 --> 00:43:43.199
But that was normal, there was no particular event, it's just what you do.
00:43:43.519 --> 00:43:46.320
Yeah, eat together, laugh together, yeah, exactly.
00:43:46.639 --> 00:43:52.400
And it's just normal, like that's completely normalized, but also it helps to keep them young.
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:59.599
So, you know, one of my cousins who's like 75, the way this woman flew up the hill, and I'm like, You're 75.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.480
But it's because the role doesn't stop.
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:02.800
Yeah.
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.199
There isn't like retirement in that regard.
00:44:05.519 --> 00:44:10.880
So you're still going out and picking mango and collecting water and doing this, so your role doesn't.
00:44:11.440 --> 00:44:11.760
Yeah.
00:44:12.000 --> 00:44:13.280
So there is no stop point.
00:44:14.000 --> 00:44:18.559
But the rates of loneliness amongst the elderly are astronomical in this country.
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:19.920
It's horrible to see.
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:26.239
And then with that comes all kinds of dangers because maybe no one's checking in on them.
00:44:26.480 --> 00:44:26.880
Vulnerabilities.
00:44:27.119 --> 00:44:28.000
Vulnerabilities.
00:44:28.159 --> 00:44:28.480
Yeah.
00:44:28.639 --> 00:44:38.639
But also if they lose their partner, you know, then they then maybe go not long afterwards because you know, and it's just it doesn't have to be like that.
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:42.960
And because of the the isolation aspect, that belonging gets lost.
00:44:43.039 --> 00:44:43.199
Yeah.
00:44:43.760 --> 00:44:54.639
Especially, you know, people that go into uh elderliness, shall we say, with their partner, and that partner's suddenly gone, their unit is gone.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:55.599
What have you got?
00:44:55.760 --> 00:45:03.599
And then it goes back to education because actually, how do we educate children in this country about the respects and value of the elderly community?
00:45:04.239 --> 00:45:11.360
I I don't think we do a very good job at how we value, how we respect, how we connect with.
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:14.239
I don't think we do anything at all to encourage that.
00:45:14.320 --> 00:45:23.519
I can't even think, I'm thinking back now to anything we taught in schools that really spoke, except for from looking at a different community and doing a comparison.
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:25.760
I I I can't think.
00:45:26.079 --> 00:45:36.559
The only thing I can think of is when my kids were in nursery, there was a a nursing home next door, and they used to go in once a week and sing songs, and that was the only connection I can remember.
00:45:37.039 --> 00:45:57.760
But I think the the rhetoric around the elderly that's um peddled by politicians and so on isn't helpful, you know, because and I know we've got a huge problem with social care in this country, but you know, the language you hear about it is it makes it positions the elderly as a massive drain on society, you know.
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:16.880
Um, and you know, even I would argue that there are some previous politicians who have almost presented um um a eugenics model of society, you know, that and certainly they keep pushing the limit for retirement, official retirement, and so on.
00:46:17.039 --> 00:46:23.119
Just this idea that you know they're not useful to society, um, you know, the elderly.
00:46:23.599 --> 00:46:36.000
Yeah, and I and I I don't know what I've noticed in the UK there's a care home culture which is really horrible, which which actually um pushes that thing of separating them, putting them over there.
00:46:36.159 --> 00:46:38.559
You just get put you over there, yeah.
00:46:38.960 --> 00:46:42.239
And that separation, that's like you know, what's to live in a care home?
00:46:42.320 --> 00:46:44.239
And then again, we've heard all the stories of what's going on.
00:46:44.880 --> 00:46:47.440
So it's almost like an adult prison for a crime you haven't committed.
00:46:48.000 --> 00:46:55.519
Right because you can't leave, you're subject to people visiting you, and it takes all of your financial resources, and dignity, right?
00:46:55.760 --> 00:46:58.719
And yeah, we're not gonna we've we've all heard the story.
00:46:59.199 --> 00:47:04.480
Yeah, and but then I also think as a country we're not prepared for anything else.
00:47:04.960 --> 00:47:16.559
I I wasn't brought up in a community that was expected that I would look after my parents, so I've got you know a fairly reasonable sized house, but I filled every room with kids.
00:47:16.880 --> 00:47:22.320
You know, I haven't got that element that expectations.
00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:35.440
Yeah, when I go back to Bangladesh and I see like if there's an elderly person, it's like a village, and you know, like they say it takes a village to raise a child, it takes a village to look after your elderly, yeah.
00:47:35.599 --> 00:47:37.119
And that it doesn't exist here.
00:47:37.280 --> 00:47:49.119
We're not the community focus has left, has gone now in this country, and I think that's where then our most vulnerable in society are then uh the ones that are suffering for that.
00:47:49.360 --> 00:48:05.679
And it's sad because COVID gave us a glimpse, yeah, a glimpse of what it could be like to have that again, in the sense of like my nan said when she grew up and grew up my dad and my aunts and uncle, it was normal to leave your front door open and you just shared.
00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:23.599
So my nan was like with like do like nursing, she's like two to ten or whatever, and so it's like you'd cook and then you'd put on food, and the kids from each person on rotation would go in each other's houses and help each other and care for each other, like that was so normalized, and you'd do that for the the elderly or the sick in the community.
00:48:23.760 --> 00:48:24.960
That's just normal, yeah.
00:48:25.039 --> 00:48:31.440
Yeah, now they can go days with no visitor if nobody is able to make that commitment.
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:38.239
What's happening now, just trying to choose my words carefully, is that we're almost getting used to going to people's houses and finding them dead.
00:48:38.400 --> 00:48:43.440
Yes, because they haven't heard from anyone for a couple of days or a lot of people.
00:48:46.400 --> 00:49:03.039
Growing up, I lived in a community where the neighbours would knock on each other's doors and help each other out, and we live I'm very lucky that I live on a cul de sac and there's children all of a similar age, and you know, when the kids are out playing, all the doors are open and they're going in and out, and it'll be like, Oh, I'm just getting nipped into the shock, you watch so and so.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:07.360
Yeah, fine, and we feed them all and everything, but that's not normal.
00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:14.400
Normal no, it's because we're very fortunate we live on a little road in a little village, and that's I don't know my neighbours.
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:17.760
I've lived there for nine years, and I don't know my neighbours, yeah.
00:49:17.920 --> 00:49:18.400
It's different.
00:49:18.639 --> 00:49:29.840
My children would then have a shock when they see when they kind of go to other people's houses and go like, oh, you don't know your neighbours, or you know, it's because they have a sense of belonging even at home.
00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.960
Yeah, imagine going home to where you should have belonging and you don't even feel like you belong on the street that you live on.
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:35.840
Yeah, exactly.
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:37.599
So you just want to quickly shut your front door, yeah.
00:49:37.760 --> 00:49:40.400
So then you're trying to cultivate a bit of belonging inside your home.
00:49:40.559 --> 00:50:09.519
But when if you don't have children or you don't have a partner or you don't have family, all of a sudden you're now looking for belonging everywhere else, and I think that's where social media is quite interesting, how vulnerable that makes people because now I'm trying to find connection because on my phone I can create this quasi you know 24-hour connection with somebody anywhere in the world, something is something if I cannot get it in the human sense, uh physical sense.
00:50:10.159 --> 00:50:27.440
But I think that might be hindering actual belonging, yeah, because yeah, it's not real, and then they're just on that all the time, and for some young people, that is the only sense of belonging they have, you know, is what's on the other side of their screen.
00:50:27.760 --> 00:50:30.079
They think it's young people's like elderly too.
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:32.079
Like my man, I went to her house the other day, she's on TikTok.
00:50:32.480 --> 00:50:33.519
What are you on TikTok for?
00:50:34.559 --> 00:50:39.119
But it's connection for her because she's like, because there's always another video, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:43.840
And so she's just like watching these videos to see the outside world, and she's going, no, no, no, no.
00:50:43.920 --> 00:50:50.639
I'm like, but then I was talking to I met one of my ex-students the other day who's now early 20s, and she's got a partner.
00:50:50.719 --> 00:50:51.760
I said, Oh, how did you meet?
00:50:51.920 --> 00:50:53.199
And she said, Oh, on Tinder.
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:56.079
And I was like, But you're young, surely just older people go into it.
00:50:56.159 --> 00:50:59.280
Because I just take it for granted that I met my husband in a pub.
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:03.360
Yeah, you know, I went out and I spoke to him in the real world.
00:51:03.679 --> 00:51:10.559
I do wonder about people, and especially children, um being so socially awkward because of that.
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:22.000
And there is there are studies now emerging that that is the case, yeah, that they're really struggling with social um etiquette and knowing how to interact.
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:23.519
And we saw it with COVID.
00:51:23.599 --> 00:51:24.079
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:24.400 --> 00:51:31.199
We saw it when the kids came back to school after COVID, like it's like their social skills had gone backwards, yeah.
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:35.599
And they'd miss, you know, after all the lockdowns, they just didn't know how to interact with each other.
00:51:35.840 --> 00:51:42.639
I remember that time because my youngest she just turned one the week that we went into lockdown.
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:51.760
And so the other parents that had babies the same age that was their only child really struggled with their child with the communication and all of that.
00:51:51.840 --> 00:52:02.719
Whereas she had two older brothers, she still had interaction and play, and because as parents, you know, parents are working away the whole time during COVID online.
00:52:03.039 --> 00:52:19.840
So if you had a little baby that you know, and I'm not parents have to do what they had to do to survive, you know, but they are finding that they are a little bit behind at school or they do struggle with their emotional and social development really um was hindered during COVID.
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:25.519
Um, there's a lot of studies that have now shown that, um, that generation of children.
00:52:25.760 --> 00:52:33.199
So yeah, but you are right, and I keep in my kids assist them, go and ask the customer service assistant.
00:52:33.440 --> 00:52:35.599
No, what do you mean, no?
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:37.199
If you don't ask, you're not gonna get.
00:52:37.360 --> 00:52:43.199
But this idea of social anxiety, yeah, they'll you know, they'd quite happily DM them or put a comment.
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.480
It's not just kids.
00:52:44.719 --> 00:52:48.159
If someone rings me, I stare at the phone and I don't want to answer it.
00:52:48.239 --> 00:52:50.800
Yeah, I'm like, like, why are you ringing me?
00:52:50.960 --> 00:52:52.480
Just message me, just text me.
00:52:52.800 --> 00:52:58.079
It's wild to me that I am a chatty patty, like I can do like four hours on the phone all day long.
00:52:58.400 --> 00:53:00.000
But yeah, I I am the worst on message.
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:12.559
You'd think I'm being rude because I'm quite blunt because I'm just like I don't that's not a form of communication that I enjoy, but I see it in my children, and I'm going, boys, you have to learn the art of communication.
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:14.079
That creates belonging.
00:53:14.159 --> 00:53:19.119
Because if you don't, if you can't converse, you're gonna find life really difficult.
00:53:19.599 --> 00:53:25.760
I've definitely got worse as my so my mobile use has gotten more, you know, and I definitely have got worse.
00:53:25.840 --> 00:53:28.400
If if that phone rings, I freak out.
00:53:29.039 --> 00:53:33.760
I'm gonna start ringing you all at that all of us.
00:53:35.920 --> 00:53:37.199
That's so funny.
00:53:37.440 --> 00:53:38.639
That's really, really interesting.
00:53:38.719 --> 00:53:54.079
But I saw this um image yesterday, and I think what what I also think is that people you can have a lot of people around you and perceivably believe that you have belonging, but it's not a true reflection of your reality.
00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:59.599
It depends on, I guess, what you quantify as true connection, yeah.
00:53:59.840 --> 00:54:10.480
And so this image I saw on social media yesterday was a person who sat on the floor in the middle, and then it was like, This is what it looks like if you had a hundred people following you, a thousand people, a hundred thousand, a million.
00:54:10.559 --> 00:54:17.440
And it was this idea of going, wow, you can have all these people watching you around you, but how many people are you truly connected to?
00:54:17.840 --> 00:54:21.119
How many could you pick up the phone and have an actual conversation with?
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:25.920
How many, if you were having a crisis, that would be the person you would you would turn to?
00:54:26.159 --> 00:54:28.800
How many would cook you a meal if you were sick?
00:54:28.960 --> 00:54:42.320
Yeah, and it's just really recognising that I think we have a lot of superficial connection, absolutely, but isn't deeply fulfilled these relationships, and so I think people will say, I've got friends, I've got family, I've got this, and I've got that.
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:44.079
But do you really?
00:54:44.559 --> 00:54:55.519
Yeah, and I that's really interesting comment because recently my mum passed away, and that it was a very small cluster of people that showed up.
00:54:55.760 --> 00:55:12.480
You you get the messages from everyone, and they were lovely messages, but you know, someone that turned up with a chicken pie, someone that turned up with flowers or cake, or you know, all those different things, bringing things for the kids, and that's that was probably 10 people in total.
00:55:12.800 --> 00:55:13.599
Do you know what I mean?
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:23.920
And yet I would probably have had text messages from 50, so to speak, and it like a hundred people might have liked a picture of it on social media.
00:55:24.239 --> 00:55:47.199
But then interestingly, when I had the celebration of life, there were people from the community, from the school community that came because they found and it was a real I owe because it was it's a bit of a weird one, but I just didn't know if it was gonna be two people turn up or 50 people turn up, and that's when you really know your worth and your belonging, isn't it?
00:55:47.280 --> 00:55:53.599
And it's not just showing up for her, but showing up for me, my children, and the community.
00:55:53.840 --> 00:55:56.639
But yeah, it's really valid the point that you're saying there.
00:55:56.960 --> 00:56:02.480
There's something from this conversation that I keep coming back to that belonging and fitting in are not the same thing.
00:56:03.039 --> 00:56:14.239
Because if belonging requires us to make ourselves smaller, change the way we speak, hide where we come from, or remove parts of ourselves so that everybody feels, you know, everybody else feels comfortable.
00:56:15.199 --> 00:56:17.760
Perhaps we never really belonged there in the first place.
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:28.800
What I heard around this table was how deeply our sense of belonging can be shaped by race, class, family, education, work, and the places we find ourselves in.
00:56:29.440 --> 00:56:39.119
But I also heard something hopeful that as we understand ourselves better, perhaps we can become more intentional about the spaces we create for ourselves and for other people.
00:56:39.440 --> 00:56:49.840
Spaces where being different doesn't mean being outside, where being heard matters, and where we don't have to mould ourselves into somebody else's version of acceptable just to be invited to stay.
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:54.800
Thank you to Aisha, Domini, and Michael for trusting this conversation with their experiences.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:56.320
And thank you for listening.
00:56:56.559 --> 00:57:02.079
Maybe continue this one with someone in your world and ask them where do you feel most able to be completely yourself?
00:57:03.360 --> 00:57:04.559
This is the third conversation.
00:57:05.280 --> 00:57:08.079
The conversations of the changes rarely happen first.