Full Episode Mo Husseini
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Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [00:00:00] Um, so first of all, how are you today?
Mo Husseini: Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You-
Mo Husseini: know, uh, uh I've been, uh, um, struggling with, uh, uh, that, that, that, essay. Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The one you just sent me?
Mo Husseini: the, the one that I, sent you, uh, before, the super ridiculously l-long
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I noticed, I think you, did you take it down? I tried to access it again. Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, part of why I took it down actually, I mean, and, and that, that's what the piece that I just posted is about, is, uh, I'm tired of, of, of kind of like, uh, asking permission to, to, to narrate, to use, uh, um, Said's line. And, um, I think that, um, [00:01:00] you know, I, I worked on that essay and, uh, you know, it started to climb towards like 24,000 words, which is, you know, I mean, that, that's quarter of a book. And, um, that was just me just trying to kind of lay out where I stand on things.
Mo Husseini: And I realized that, that, that like, um, I began to question kind of like why I was doing it, i- if that makes sense. And I realized that I wasn't doing it to make me feel better. I, I was doing it to make other people feel better and, and that, uh, um Yeah
Mo Husseini: like the, it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What do you mean by that? Who, who are you, who are you making feel better?
Mo Husseini: I d-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Who is it
Mo Husseini: the wrong construct, but like, like, uh, uh, I was doing it to correct people's misconceptions of me, and, and I realized that that like I don't-- Like fundamentally, like if you don't give [00:02:00] a crap enough to engage with me to understand what I'm saying, then, then I don't know that I owe you a, uh a mini book, if that makes sense, that, that, that, that, that, um, that explains all of that, I guess.
Mo Husseini: I don't know. Uh, sorry, like this is super uninteresting to, to other people. Um, uh, but yeah, so, so that's, that's, that's what that piece that I just posted about, frankly, i-is about, is, is, is just about feeling tired about performing from the margins, which I feel like, um in many ways is, um, kind of the problem. Um, and, and what I mean by that is uh I think there's, uh, I think that kind of the, the mainstream [00:03:00] discourse has for decades insisted that, uh, Jewish pain and Jewish trauma the central text, right? Like, like, uh, um, that, uh, to be Talmudic about it
Mo Husseini: like the piece in the middle i- Jewish pain and Jewish trauma and Jewish loss and, and Jewish connection to the land and, and all of these things. um- Palestinian pain, Palestinian trauma, Palestinian connection to the land, Palestinian loss ha- has always, uh, and, and only been allowed in the margins. It's only been allowed as an asterisk to, um, to Jewish pain, to Jewish trauma. um That I think is, is, is, is very much what Said [00:04:00] was talking about, this idea that, that we have to ask for permission to be allowed onto the page. uh, you know, that, that, that even the act of us telling our own stories is, is gatekept from us. And, um, I think in a weird way, um, part of the dissonance for, uh, for, for some folks is, is realizing that their story is not central anymore, and that, uh That, that, that,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You're talking about for
Mo Husseini: yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: people? Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, you know, that, that, that, that, that... And, and, and to say that the story isn't central doesn't mean that the story isn't important. it's saying is that the story also must share space, right? And, and, and I think that, [00:05:00] um, I think that that is a really unnatural position for some folks who've never had to, to, to, to have that, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, and, I say that very carefully. Like, like this is not a statement that is designed to, um, minimize, uh, uh, Jewish pain or Jewish trauma or Jewish connection to the land, but rather to say that, yes, it's important, but it's also-- it's just as important as this other thing, right? Uh, and, and I think that that is where, um... I mean, that's the thrust of the piece that I just posted is, is, is really focusing on that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, and I would like to, I'd like to return to
Mo Husseini: Sorry.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: some things that you just said. No, no, this, that was a, this was a great cold open, I mean. Um, uh, [00:06:00] but I, I wanna, like, weave into that a little later 'cause I, I do have some thoughts on, on that. But, but, um, you just sent me this piece. Uh, I just started reading the first two paragraphs, so I don't know.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I was like, "Oh, I wish I'd, you'd sent me this
Mo Husseini: That's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: to at least have..." You know, I know you just...
Mo Husseini: what I was...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, you just, you just posted it. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: free-- If
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But,
Mo Husseini: take a beat, like I'm happy to drop
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but
Mo Husseini: restart in five or 10 or whatever, if that works for you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, if you think, actually maybe if you think it would be worth me, if you... Yeah, yeah, maybe. We don't even have to stop recording actually. I'll just, um, if you, I'll just like walk away or hit mute or,
Mo Husseini: You can hit pause and we can go from there
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, I'll, I'll keep recording just so I don't have to edit two pieces. It's easier. Um, but, uh, maybe I'll just... Yeah, you wanna j- how long is the piece? Should we do five minutes, 10 minutes?
Mo Husseini: it's totally fine. You, you should be able to [00:07:00] get through it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: more than 10
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: All right. Let's, uh, yeah, you wanna come back at t-
Mo Husseini: stay
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 10:18?
Mo Husseini: you're gonna keep
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, you'll stay on?
Mo Husseini: gonna mute and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Okay, cool. I'll just, I'll just do that, and I'll just, uh, I'll, I'll turn off my... Yeah, I'll just, I'll just m-[00:08:00] [00:09:00] [00:10:00] [00:11:00] [00:12:00] [00:13:00] [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00] [00:19:00] [00:20:00] [00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Hey
Mo Husseini: There we go. Okay
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Um, sorry, I guess I'm a slower reader than you might
Mo Husseini: all good. I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: have thought
Mo Husseini: I-- It's probably more likely that I'm a faster reader, uh, uh, when I obviously am reading my own shit since I know what's about to happen.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure.
Mo Husseini: Sorry about
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, Um, fant-- no, fantastic piece. I'm glad I got to read that. There's-- I was-- I clipped a bunch of quotes too that I feel like might be useful to hear you elaborate on or just speak, speak about. Um, but oh man, so let's see[00:26:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What, what I, I, what I would love to do is hear you... You know, the, the piece, the piece starts out with you kind of, um, well, here's, here, here's a quote. Uh, "I am Palestinian without a stranger arriving to dispute it, to explain to me that the noun is an invention, that the identity is an unfounded rumor, that I'm a rounding error holding a flag."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, oh, and preceding that you say, "I cannot even write the smallest true sentence I own." Uh, and, and you are talking about in the context of being a boy and asking, somebody asking in a room where you're from, and you saying, "I'm Palestinian," and pe- and, like, teachers or other students looking at you as if you made a mistake.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, "What i- that place doesn't exist. What are you talking about?" Can you explore that [00:27:00] idea and w- with, with also maybe giving us a little, um, a little insight into your background and where you came from and
Mo Husseini: uh, let me start with the easy part, uh, with, uh, my, my background. Um, I'm Palestinian. I'm, uh, uh, I'm Palestinian through and through. Um, you know, both sides of my family are Palestinian. My, father was born in a Palestinian Jerusalem in 1944. my, uh, mother was born in a Palestinian Nablus, um, a couple of years later. and, you know, that's what I grew up with. I grew up in a, um, in a very, uh, proud-to-be-Palestinian family. Um, and, uh, I, I continue to be proud of being Palestinian. But I think that, um [00:28:00] At least for me, um, one of the earliest kind of moments of dissonance was realizing as a child that I didn't have a Palestinian passport. Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What, what country is this, were you in?
Mo Husseini: we were living in Kuwait, but we carried, uh, Jordanian passports because, um, essentially that was what was available to my parents. My, my, my father had grown up in, in Cairo, but also in Jordan, and had, uh, carried a Jordanian passport since, um since having a passport and, and the same with my mother.
Mo Husseini: And, um, as a kid, I knew I wasn't Kuwaiti. Like, we were living in Kuwait, but, but I knew I wasn't Kuwaiti in the sense [00:29:00] that, um, um, you know, Kuwaiti people sounded different, right? Like a Kuwaiti accent is j- uh, i- is a Khaliji accent, which is quite different than a, um, than a Shami accent, which is what most, uh, Palestinians or Syrians or, uh, uh, Jordanians would have. Um- And, know, you know, you know you don't belong in Kuwait. It's not your place in, in quotes. And so growing up, uh, you know, you ask where, where are we from? And you're, you're told, "You're Palestinians." And, uh, you know, then you see your passport and you realize that you don't have a Palestinian passport.
Mo Husseini: You actually have a Jordanian passport. And then why don't I have a Palestinian passport? You know, everybody else gets to have their passports. And, you know, that, that's kind of the, the beginning of the dissonance. You, you realize that this ve-very [00:30:00] simple thing, this very simple question like, "Where are you from?" Um, answering that is in and of itself loaded. And, um, it's loaded a lot less when you answer it in, i-in the context of being in an Arab country, um, because people understand what you mean when you say, "I'm Palestinian." They understand that, that, that, that there is a, disjoint between the identity and the, and the legal framework that supports the identity.
Mo Husseini: Like, people are, are used to that. And so you can say, "I'm Palestinian," without people going like, "Hmm, what, what, what does that mean?" Um, but then, you know, at the age of 10 or 11, you're, you're suddenly in a boarding school in, um, in a, you know, fairly, homogenous group of kids who, you know, when they talk about where they're [00:31:00] from, they're talking about various cities in the UK, right? uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: This is in London
Mo Husseini: uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: or in the UK
Mo Husseini: north, closer to Cambridge, um, uh, up in the countryside, uh, in East Anglia. And, um, you know, the-those... Saying I'm Palestinian in that context, um, is either people not knowing what that is, um, uh, denying that it exists as a thing, right? Telling, you know... Which was the, the, the teacher's response that I mentioned in that article. You know, like somebody essentially like, "Oh, that doesn't exist." Like we're, you know... and, and, and, and I distinctly remember him like not even waiting for me to correct. He just kind of moved on. Like it didn't matter. Like whatever. Um-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: He wasn't even curious, like
Mo Husseini: think, I think
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: he, like to
Mo Husseini: know, I mean, [00:32:00] to put it in context, this is the, the early '80s, right? And in the UK, th- this was the era of, like, the petrodollar and, um, I think we were all just lumped in, in that kind of generic, like, you know, um... I think every Arab, uh, kid of that era has some version of, like, "How many camels do your parents have?" You know, "How many, how many mothers do you have?" Like, those kinds of particularly in the UK, where I think that the impact of, um Arab wealth was felt more clearly than, than it was in the US. Um, there, there was a lot of, uh, kind of friction with, you know, rich Gulf Arabs showing up in the UK with a lot of money and a lot of privilege that, that were hugely resented by, by the British and, um, know, and, and the [00:33:00] resulting, I think, racism that came out of that. And, and we were just kind of lumped into that generic, uh, Arab construct.
Mo Husseini: We are just rich people from Arabia. um, it's hard in that context to be like, "Hey, by the way, we're the poor Arabs," right? Like, "We're the ones that don't have oil."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: and, and, and in the list of poor Arabs, like Palestinians are down at the bottom of that list. Like not only do we not have oil, like we don't even have a country.
Mo Husseini: We don't even have our, our own passports. And, um, for me, the, the object lesson was like you don't even have the ability to simply say, "I am Palestinian," without, uh, without a question. And, um, you know, the anecdote that, that opens that essay continues to exist. Um, like I literally, um I've literally had comments on [00:34:00] posts that I've made online or, uh, know, where, where I might say something fairly anodyne, like not even like super controversial. Like, "Hey, as a Palestinian, I think X, Y, or Z." And, um, have literally had within minutes, like people jump on to go, "Well, that's not a real thing.
Mo Husseini: Like there, there, there's no such thing as Palestinians. Like you're all just Arabs. You're all just..." You know, like, like you can't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: w- it was invented by Arafat in '67
Mo Husseini: you literally, you, you cannot even give me the grace to tell you how I identify myself without challenging that, right? Like, like, like, like um, it, it's, it's, it's a very interesting kind of thing, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and to be clear, like changing, you know? And, and I, and I think that that, that that's a, a big part of [00:35:00] what I'm addressing in that, um, article that's changing, and I think that that change is uncomfortable for a lot of people. you know? Um, I, I think that that, uh, reframe, uh, permission structure that is allowing Palestinians to kind of step up and "I am Palestinian," without the challenge being acceptable, without the negation being acceptable, um, that's a fairly new thing. Um, and, and, and I've lived the spectrum of it and, um, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's a, it's an interesting, uh, it's an interesting time and, and I mean that in, in both a positive and a negative sense. Like, like I think that it is a, um, you know, on the, on, on the one, um- [00:36:00] In the non-official part of the conversation about Israel-Palestine, it's probably one of the better times in, um, in Palestinian, uh, uh, history and advocacy, right? Like, th- there's more of an acceptance, uh, for Palestinians to speak. There's more of an acceptance of a Palestinian narrative. more of an acceptance of a right to speak without challenge. And, know, ironically, it's, it, it's, it's also one of the worst times in history in terms of the destruction that has been just absolutely and, and ruthlessly wrought on, uh, the Palestinian people, both in Gaza and, and in the West Bank and, and within Israel proper, right? Like, like, the, the, the-- they are, um, they are distinctions of grade and not [00:37:00] distinctions of, uh, reality.
Mo Husseini: Like, yeah, your life in the West Bank is slightly better than it is in Gaza, but, like, that ain't saying much, like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: That's not at all, no
Mo Husseini: you're talking about toothpicks that are stacked above each other, if that makes sense. And, um, um, you know, so, so th- there's a weird kind of tension and irony of realizing that, uh, you know, on a, um- On a general political discourse level, thing, things are better than they have been. While in a material sense and in the sense of of how the, the Israeli government is acting and, uh, behaving with regards to Palestinians, I-i in many ways it's never been worse. Um, you know, with the possible exception of the stuff that was happening immediately, uh, uh, [00:38:00] you know, immediately around the, the Nakba, right?
Mo Husseini: Like the, and, and, and, you know, the scale of the destruction is, uh, uh, completely different in, in Gaza, et cetera.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I would love for you to, uh, share some about the s- some, some stuff about the work you've done in, um, either as a filmmaker or just as a, I don't know the best way to say it, activist organizer. Like, you've been involved in, like, dialogue with, you know. Like, what, what are some of the work you've done around Palestine and, and Israel and
Mo Husseini: I, mean, I mean, I, I think, I think for me it's, um It's interesting, like I come out of film a bit like, you know, with the, um, w- with of, uh, the work on "The Path Forward" that I did with, uh, Julie [00:39:00] very early on, uh, i-i-in the context of, uh, um, utter destruction that's been wrought on Gaza. Uh, um, I, I haven't really done a lot of film work, uh, Israel-Palestine.
Mo Husseini: Uh, most of my work has been, um, you know, writing and speaking with people and engaging in conversations. I, I get variously described as an activist every now and then. Um, I'm, I'm uncomfortable with the word, and I'm uncomfortable with the word not because I, I have a problem with activists. Uh, I'm uncomfortable with the word because I, I don't feel like I've earned that honor, if that makes sense. A- and, and I, and I, and I say
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure. Yeah
Mo Husseini: w- w- I, I say that w- with all honor appended to the [00:40:00] word, if that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: I I think activists
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, absolutely
Mo Husseini: do something very, um, very brave and, um, they are different creatures than me, if that makes sense. Like I, I'm, uh, I'm loud, but, but I'm an introvert. Uh, you know, like, like I don't like being in, in crowds. I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm, I'm not built for demonstrations. Uh, I, I'm not that guy. Um, but by the same token, I don't look at demonstrations or look at people who engage in those and go like, you know, "Fucking idiots," or whatever. Like, they are doing, uh, brave and necessary and critical work. I, I think that, um I think, uh, that the liberation movement, and, and that is really how I think about it.
Mo Husseini: And, and to be clear that I think that, I think that it is a liberation movement for both Arabs and Jews. [00:41:00] Because I think that, that the Jews, uh, uh, that Jews as well need to be liberated from this, uh, uh, fr-fr-from, from what exists, uh, now and the way that, uh, uh, Israel is, um, kind of set up and behaving. I think that it's a, uh You know, frankly, I think it's hard to divorce the idea of liberation, um, from anybody, right? Like, like I think that, that, that the Palestinian struggle is profoundly intertwined with, um, w-with the Black, uh, uh, experience, not just in the United States, but, but globally, um, w-with the issues of, uh, you know, the Southern Hemisphere, the Global South, um, with, with issues of, uh, trans rights, uh, with issues of, you know, LGBTQA, uh, QIA rights.
Mo Husseini: Uh, you know, I, I think nobody is free until everybody is free. And I, and [00:42:00] I think that, you know, and I, and I know that that sounds glib, but I also think it is profoundly true. Like I, I, I do not know how you can call yourself a, an ethical and moral person and, uh, claim freedom when, when anybody is being oppressed.
Mo Husseini: And, and, and that I think is the part where, um I, I think that that's the part that is really hard for, uh, for populations that have been centered historically, right? Like I, I think that, And, and, and, and to be clear, this is not a, a comment about, uh, um, Jewish folks, right? Like I think, I think white people have a problem with this when, you know, when, uh, when your response to the phrase Lives Matter is, "Well, actually all lives matter," right?
Mo Husseini: Like you don't fucking get it, Like that is literally-- Like you are showing with that [00:43:00] statement that you don't fucking get it, right? Because the statement, uh, the statement Black Lives Matter is not saying that all lives don't matter. It's saying that for too long you have ignored the fact that Blacks li- that, that Black lives matter, and therefore we must insist on the centrality of that statement, and you can't dilute it by trying to turn it into a, you know, kind of a, a, a, a, an anodyne like piece of pablum about, "But yeah, actually all lives matter."
Mo Husseini: It's like, well, no, now you're ignoring the problem again, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: that, um, I think that happens a-any time a centered, uh, uh, a centered majority is forced to kind of engage with, uh, uh, uh, w-with the oppressed, right? Like, and I think that, um, you know, once again, like, uh, when you ask me about what I do, like I work with [00:44:00] who is willing to understand that, who is willing to understand that, um There's no freedom in supremacy for anybody. no freedom in oppression for anybody. And that's, you know, uh, for, for me to say that Palestinian lives matter and you jumping in with, you know, the, the eq- the, the equivalent of all lives matter, um, i- once again, like, attempts to equalize a situation that is not equal, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, yes, absolutely Jewish lives matter, but, but Jewish lives are not threatened in the same way that Palestinian... And, and that's not to say that they aren't threatened, it's to say that they aren't threatened in the same way
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I feel like what I see in your writing, um, is, is, is what consistently shows up for me [00:45:00] is you navigating this tension, um, of wanting to... You know, you, you say things like, uh, "Trauma is symmetrical," or, "Pain is symmetrical, but power is not." Stuff like that. And I, I... "Grief is symmetrical, power is not," is, is your, your words.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I- but I, I feel like you I almost like, you know, in the piece I read and, and just now and in the piece I read earlier, the longer one, um, I almost feel like, um, you, you bring it up a lot. I feel like in real time almost I, I can hear you, like, going back and forth of, like, saying like, "Yes, I see your pain," speaking to J- the Jewish community, "And you need to see ours."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And but the- but also, like, being, being careful of saying [00:46:00] like-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: W- we are not coming from it from, from equal sides of the coin. Like, uh, you know, you had another, what I thought was such a brilliant line, um Let me find it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Maybe I didn't write it down. Um, oh, yeah. Even the word conflict draped over a man strapped to a chair stops describing anything and becomes a curtain. And printing both names in the same size type on the scoreboard is the oldest trick of the people who own the press. Um
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I, I'd like to, to explore more this tension that you hold, and I'll, I'll [00:47:00] do it by posing a question, which is I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday that I've been engaging with who... Somebody who would describe themselves as progressive Zionist. And it was-- I'd say this last exchange was, was frustrating for me for, for several different reasons.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Some of them I, I totally will put on the way that I communicated. But he was trying to explain the importance to me of why you need to-- why it's not okay to be anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian, why you need to be pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, and I just don't fully accept that premise, and particularly in the way that I think he might explain it.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And anyway, not to-- I know you don't know the context, you don't know the person, but when you hear somebody say something like that, what is your immediate reaction?
Mo Husseini: my, my, my, my [00:48:00] immediate reaction is like, look, I've said things that are similar. But, but, but, but once again, and I think that this is the problem, this is the problem that I have, Ezra, which is that I'm a writer, right? Like, and, and what I mean by that as a problem is that, the, the, that I spend, um, I spend literal hours obsessed about word choices, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and, and so, um, you know, to me they're, the, like a w- a word means a certain set of things and, and when I use that word, I use it to mean a certain set of things. And you, you and I have had discussions kind of in the lead up, up to this thing of like, you know, why I have troubles with using, uh, uh, certain words or, or not other words, not just because of what they mean, but also because of the, um, the, because of the reactions that they, that they provoke in other people.
Mo Husseini: And so as a writer, you're constantly making that decision, right? Like you're constantly engaged [00:49:00] in a, uh, for, for lack of a better description, a cost-benefit analysis of, of the words that you choose and the words that you deploy. And I've said things along the lines of like, look, I think it is absolutely necessary to be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian at the same time.
Mo Husseini: But what I mean by that is something very specific. And what I mean by that is, look, I am no fan of Hamas, right? Like as, as an organization and, and as a set of decisions that they, that they have made in terms of governance, very specifically in terms of how they treat the Palestinian people. And the same is true, uh, as well about my feelings about the PA.
Mo Husseini: But, but those feelings about Hamas, about the PA, about any of the various, uh, liberation organizations do not change my pro-Palestinian-ness. and so when I say like you can be pro-Palestinian, my focus there when you are, or when, when you are [00:50:00] using that term, when I am using that term, um, is, uh, is the people of Palestine The, the, the people, the people who are being killed and who are paying the price. and, and, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: S- yeah, so
Mo Husseini: same thing, I would say the same thing in terms of like, look, you want to be, uh, pro-Israel. That's fine. Be pro-Israeli, right? But, but, but be very clear that the Israeli government, as it exists, as it has, as it has existed for decades, an oppressive construct that is, uh, uh, that, that is actively trying eliminate a Palestinian presence on the land and engaging in, a- in what are by, by any neutral measure are war crimes, whether that's collective punishment, whether that is, uh, you know, blockade, whether that is the leveraging of hunger as a [00:51:00] tool, uh, uh, uh, of warfare, whether that's the creation of a, um, that's the creation of a, uh, uh, frankly discriminatory and oppressive legal system that treats Palestinians as less than, and, and in fact creates categories of Palestinians.
Mo Husseini: Oh, you're not as good as a '48 Palestinian. You're a, you know, e- e- et cetera. like I, I'm sorry, but like in that context, like yeah, I'm not pro-Israeli. Like I, I, I refuse to engage with that construct as being anything, uh, uh, that needs, uh, that needs to, uh, continue to, to kind of be supported, right? Like that, that's an oppressive contra- construct, sorry
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. I, and, and I guess that's, that's where my, I push back against that language, not necessarily in the way you use it, but just I'm still trying to [00:52:00] understand what anyone means when they say pro-Israeli, because to me, even in the most generous term, the most generous benefit of the doubt definition, if somebody, like for instance, the man I was speaking with yesterday, I know he's anti-occupation.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I know he has some vision of some binational or one state or confederate state. It's a little blurry to me what, you know, but that's besides the point. But, but I, I think where, I think, I think if I were to try to isolate the tension, I feel like he still feels like be- being Israeli entails Jews have some sort of- Exclusive rights or, or, or like s- at, at least e- even at the most, even if there's equal rights with Palestinians, like some sort of majority, uh, population.
Mo Husseini: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: and to me that is, that is [00:53:00] unacceptable. Like to me that, that still ends up kind of collapsing into a definition around Zionism that is inherently racist, because in order to maintain a Jewish majority state, you have to enact racialized policies that would limit immigration or, uh, f- from the people that live there, Palestinians, or, or limit birth, birth rates or something.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You know, so, uh, so it's just very hard for me to accept, like you should be pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because I, I can't find a definition of Israel or even Israeli that doesn't have inequality built into it.
Mo Husseini: think,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But may- maybe people would push back on me
Mo Husseini: the, uh, ironic, uh, for, for the ironic position of being a Palestinian de- defending, uh, a, a Israeli identity. Um, but I think that there's a distinction to be made about the idea of, of, of [00:54:00] specifically Israeli identity, and, and let me offer it to you this way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: in, in the, uh, in the '70s and '80s, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, we started this with me talking about my sense of identity, uh, as a child growing up and feeling the dissonance between, uh, the feeling of being Palestinian, uh, um, when put up and held up against the feeling of not having a passport that said Palestinian, right? And, and I think that it's important to recognize and understand that, that Israelis as well exist as a sense of a national, uh, uh, personal sense of identity, if that makes sense. um, they feel about themselves that they are not just, uh, uh, Jews, but that they are Jews and Israelis, right? Like, I think that, uh, uh, um- The, it is possible to have a national identity that is not necessarily [00:55:00] reflected by the country or by the decisions of the country or by the structure of the country or, uh, by the politics of the country.
Mo Husseini: I mean, I think that, um, we, all of us in the US, uh, for the next two, uh, years, a significant, uh, number of us do not feel, uh, represented by the country we live in, or by the politics of the government that we live in or by the perspectives on the world of the government that we live in. It doesn't make us any less American. And I think that that's where I would land that distinction, which is I think it is possible to be supportive of Israeli identity and Israeli nationality and an Israeli sense of being as an Israeli in the world without necessarily, uh, conflating that, um, with the positions of the state, right? Like I, uh, I know and have worked with [00:56:00] many Israelis who are far to the left of me, who consider themselves profoundly Israeli in their sense of, uh, connection to that as an identity that, that I would say, um, mirrors my connection, right?
Mo Husseini: Like to being Palestinian regardless of passport or identity. yet they are, um, profoundly antagonistic to what the state is doing in their name. And, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Would they, would they s describe themselves as anti-Zionist Israeli?
Mo Husseini: I would, uh, o- o- one thing that I've heard m- more and more of these days from people wanting to, um, uh, defang the term is post-Zionist
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, I hear that too, or non-Zionist.
Mo Husseini: I think that, I think that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I
Mo Husseini: they would describe themselves. I would say like, [00:57:00] look,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: like a few of them would actually describe themselves as anti-Zionist. And, and, and one that I can think
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: would describe themselves as a virulent a-anti-Zionist, um, as an Israeli, which I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: like, you know, i-i-infinitely entertaining.
Mo Husseini: But I would say that most of them would describe themselves as post-Zionist. One of the things that I've heard repeatedly from Israeli people is like, "Look, the, the, the, the, the case for Zionism ended in 1948," that everything since then is, is, is a national identity and, and problems with the state that have nothing to do with, uh, uh, the idea of Zionism per se, as far as they're concerned
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But, but, but even, even that statement I feel like legitimizes the idea of Zionism, uh, in 1948, which I would object to. And, and I d- I do wanna point out, like, uh, the irony here of, um, you know, as you alluded to of, like, the, myself [00:58:00] as a, a, a Jewish and I guess virulent anti-Zionist trying to... And then you as, like, a Palestinian trying to def- defend these more moderate Israeli or Zionist positions.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But I know that, I know that politically I, I... Because we've spoken so and I've... I, I don't think there's daylight between us politically, but I, I admire the, the care and the thoughtfulness of which you choose your language, and I think we actually, I, I think we actually are coming at it from different angles.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and I think it actually is our positionality of our identities that maybe allow it, where I think you tactically, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but, like, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I think you tactically kind of try, try to take a more cautionary approach without watering down the truth of, you know, like wanting to keep the door open for conversation with people that, you know, [00:59:00] not shut, not shut things down.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I think I actually, at least more recently in my life around this topic, um, I'm trying to take a deliberately more provocative approach, um, without shutting the door down completely, but basically being like, "No, no, no, this needs to be uncomfortable, and you need to experience cognitive dissonance." Um, so for instance, the, the...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: why I take issue with the idea of post-Zionist or non-Zionist is I think it is Potentially, or I, I, I think it is dangerous to divorce the term Zionism with the political ideology and, um, and history of asymmetrical power and settler colonialism and occupation that has [01:00:00] existed for the last 75 years under the term of Zionism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, I, I, I see it as, as similar, uh, similarly why it is not sufficient enough to just say you are not racist, um, or you are, uh, you know, while, but then, you know, having benefited from white supremacy. Like, I think Jews and Israelis that have benefited from this imbalance of power need to explicitly be anti-racist or anti-Zionist to go back against, uh, you know, fight against the systems of, um, vast power imbalance and inequality that have perpetuated.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So that's why I take issue because I think it softens the,
Mo Husseini: I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the term.
Mo Husseini: be clear
Mo Husseini: though, uh, and, and, and explain kind of where, where I'm coming from. And, and, and, and, and, and to go back to that essay that we started, uh, talking about, um, [01:01:00] I don't believe it's anybody's place to define anybody else's identity And, and that's, that, that's where, that, that's where I get hung up, right? So, so if I, if, if I come to you and, and to go back to that statement, if I make the statement, "I am Palestinian," and your first response is to jump in and explain to me why I'm not Palestinian, or why that term doesn't exist, or why that nationality has, has, has no reality, uh, if you will, or, um, uh, uh, or salience or whatever.
Mo Husseini: Like, whatever critique you wanna make of my statement, "I am Palestinian," um- I, I can think of, you know, uh, I can, I can think of a hundred ways that I could respond to that, a-and, and I can't think [01:02:00] of m-more zero of them that would be positive i-in terms of my response, right? Like, like I-- by the very fact of you engaging with negation, right? Like, I'm gonna shut down. And you're like, "You know what?
Mo Husseini: Go fuck yourself." You know? And, and you may have a,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: may have a super nuanced argument, a-and that super nuanced argument may not be a negation of Palestinians. It may be talking about nation-state construction in, in the Ottoman Near East and blah, blah, blah. Like, it, it may be a completely different conversation, but by the very fact of you engaging from a negate-negating perspective i-initially, I've already shut down.
Mo Husseini: I'm not fucking listening to you. You're-- you, you've already classified yourself as a knee-jerk idiot, uh, in my math. I am wary of ever doing that to other people. I feel that, uh, uh, that, uh, people get to define who they are, [01:03:00] and so if someone comes to me and approaches me and says, you know, "I'm a Zionist," I, example, that term, like I have a very hard time with that term, and I, I talk about it repeatedly in my writing, which is I don't know what that means. Like, I, I don't know what that means, right? Because I, I've seen people define Zionism, it-- and, uh, talk about their Zionism and before you get more than two or three sentences in, you're like, "Oh, like, this is fucking racial supremacy, like what you're talking about." Like then you've just
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: name on it.
Mo Husseini: Like, th-this is fundamentally no different than, um, uh, uh, talking about Übermensch or, you know, talking about, you know, the purity of the white race. Y-you're, you're just, you're, you're using a different costume to have a very similar conversation. But I've also heard people define their own, quote-unquote, "sense of [01:04:00] Zionism," um, in language that I have z-zero objection to, where, where, where, where-- And, and let, and let me finish. A-a-and zero objection to in terms of the mechanics of what they mean by it. They mean it in, in much the same way, um, that I mean I am Palestinian, right? Like, I don't say I am Palestinian to say you are not a Jew or you don't belong or anything like that, or you have no connection to the land. I say that entirely about a statement about me and the people that I feel connected to, right? Now-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can, can you just, uh, articulate what that, what that definition would be that you are okay with?
Mo Husseini: So y- look I think it is delusional for non-Jews to engage with Jews and have a conversation with Jews that says, um, "Don't worry [01:05:00] And, and, and, and, and what I mean by that, uh, uh, specifically is that it's important to recognize that, uh, that, that, that there has been a shit ton-- Like, trauma is not imagined Right?
Mo Husseini: The oppression of Jews, the oppression of Jews is not an imag-- and, and let, let me finish.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: historically,
Mo Husseini: let, me
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah,
Mo Husseini: 'cause I think it's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry.
Mo Husseini: it,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: the, the historical oppression of Jews is not imagined, right? Antisemitism has existed for millennia, and it has been very real, and it has had very, uh, uh, very meaningful consequences and, and, and, and it has meant a shit ton of pain and suffering for the Jewish people historically, okay? Like I, I, I, and, and, and I, and I think that a, um [01:06:00] I think that the centering of the Jewish narrative is largely a reflection of the truth of that statement, right? Like, like i-in the context of, um, and, and this is a very specific and European context and a European frame. In the context of Europe, one has been oppressed more than, than Jewish people have in the context of Europe. Okay? Um, that falls apart when you start talking about, uh, uh, you know, Belgium and the Congo and, and, and all, all kinds of other things and the, and the, and, and the enslavement of, of, of Black bodies, et cetera, et cetera. Like that, like n- it is certainly not the central trauma of, of human existence, right?
Mo Husseini: But it is an important one, and it's an important one not to belittle, Like, I think that that's, that's a critical part. I think in the context of that trauma and in [01:07:00] the context of that historical Jewish trauma, um, uh, uh, there is an interpretation of Zionism that is tender from, from, you know, fr-from my perspective, and that, that is, uh, you know, I, I-- The language that I used in, uh, the essay I posted this morning is like, you know, it's the, uh, uh, it's the craving for the bed that can't be taken away.
Mo Husseini: It's the craving for the, for the door that locks from the inside of the house, and it's the conviction that, that, that no people, uh, um, no people should, uh, uh, should sleep, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No people should have ever paid... The price that no people should have ever paid, that there must be one place on earth where Jewish children sleep without packing. I just, I happened to write that down too.
Mo Husseini: I think that that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: tender and, and, and, and t- to me, uh, mirrored, uh, uh, Zionism, right? Like, that's a Zionism that matches up with my sense of Palestinianism, for lack of a better description, right? Like, it's like, hey, I want a [01:08:00] place that, that's home for me, that-- a door that I can lock, a place that I can be safe and not have to worry about packing, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I think as a Palestinian in the diaspora, similar, you know, it's a similar feeling that I've had Jewish friends explain to me is like, "Am I safe here?" Right? Like, will, you know, like, uh, uh, uh, certainly when it, when I see it in the context of Trump and what Trump is doing to brown people throughout this country, like even as an American citizen, I sit here and go like, "Am I safe here? Could this turn tomorrow," right? And now they're talking about, oh, we're gonna denaturalize people, and we're gonna, you know, like blah, blah, blah. And, and, and so there, that's my point, right? Like there's, there's in that definition of Zionism that is not a definition of Zionism that is built on the backs of Palestinians, that is not built on the backs of, of, uh, uh, of supremacy, that is not built on the backs of taking away from me in order to provide for you. [01:09:00] I don't have a problem with that. Now you as, as, as Ezra may look at that and go like, "That's not Zionism. That's, that's a Jewish, you know, sen- you know, desire for safety or whatever, and, and that's not how I'm defining Zionism." And I'm, I'm perfectly happy to stipulate, uh, to that. But my point is, I can't go to someone who tells me that that is Zionism, that tells me that that is their definition of Zionism, and tell them that it's not Zionism any more than I accept when people come and tell me that, "Oh, well, that's not Palestinian, that's being from the Levant," which is a term I fucking hate. Uh, right? Like, "Oh, you're not Palestinian, you're Levantine," or, "You're from, you know, peninsular Arabia, and you're also colonizers." I'm like, "Don't tell me what I am. I, I will tell you what I am,"
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: right? And, and, and if I'm not sure, or sorry, if you're not sure about what I mean when I tell you what I am, feel free to ask me.
Mo Husseini: I'm happy to explain it to you.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But here,
Mo Husseini: [01:10:00] yes.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: here's, here's perhaps a difference, which is, uh, okay. Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, and yeah, but I... But the people that are saying that to, to me and, and I imagine to you to at least some extent, like they are not, um, you know, and I'm making generalizations, but like th- they are not talking about... Th- they are equating historical trauma with modern-day trauma
Mo Husseini: ya.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: a-and, and antisemitism, which I think to, to a large part, not to say antisemitism does not exist, not to say anti-Jewish hate and sentiment does not exist, it certainly does.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Uh, I think Zion- a lot of it exists because of the actions of Israel and the defense of those actions, and the... That's a whole other topic maybe w- [01:11:00] I don't wanna get into right now. But, um, but systematically in the, in the West, Jews are not an oppressed group, like in a, in a legally structure, like i-i-in, in a, in an economic way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, there are no structural... There's not structural racism against Jews like there is structural racism, uh, a-about many other groups. Jews have done very well, generally speaking, as a demographic in the West. Um, they are, you know, one of the most privileged. Also, when people are talking about Zionism as just kind of defanging it, as like, "Well, it just has to do with Jewish children being able to sleep without packing," what I often find, 9 times out of 10, is they are, they are obscuring the reality of settler colonialism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: They are just saying, "Well, it is, we had ancestral roots here, [01:12:00] so therefore we did have some right, and maybe it didn't all go down perfectly. But, you know, ultimately, maybe it could have gone another way, and it was just, uh, you know, and, and there, there, it, there were imperfect actors making imperfect decision on both sides."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I feel like, uh, you know, the people that tell me they are progressive Zionism do not accept Zionism as a process of settler colonialism, which it absolutely was. And I think it is absurd to live in a reality where it doesn't acknowledge that. So, so that is why I take, I take problem. I, I, I've never met, uh, yeah, somebody who doesn't consider themselves an anti-Zionist that is willing to think about Zionism in the context of settler colonialism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Maybe that's the distinction
Mo Husseini: I have empathy [01:13:00] Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I do too.
Mo Husseini: well, no, no, no. Like I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I,
Mo Husseini: uh, like, like, like...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: uh, like, like
Mo Husseini: Sure.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: let me just say that it... No, okay.
Mo Husseini: please. Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I've said enough.
Mo Husseini: don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: go on, please. Well, like I, like it, it is not, and it's not to say I don't have empathy with the people I engage with dialogue in and argue with, um, or debate. Um, and it's not that I don't tell that they are suffering, that they are wrestling with questions, that they are trying to make sense of things.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But I think as a person who had to do a certain amount of deprogramming of an indoctrination of, of, I will name Zionist indoctrination, which I never was even that committed to, but still inherited so much, like I would say they genuinely are also confused. They genuinely are also not understanding the, the grave, the, the amount of injustice that's been perpetrated [01:14:00] from this, the project of Israel.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The am- the amount... They-- I don't think they are really understanding the psychosis of Israeli society, the, the intense racism of a vast majority of that society. Not everyone, but a vast majority. I don't think they are understanding the relevance to the genocide in Gaza happening right now with, uh, uh, on a, on a level of deep, just evil of, of the tar- the bombing of hospitals, the targeting of healthcare workers, the, the starvation of children, uh, deliberately, the, the targeting of children deliberately.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like I don't think they are seeing that in the same way. They are, they are... They will say things like, "Well, yes, there's..." You know, and this goes back to what you talked about, not using the word genocide, not because you don't think genocide is happening, but not wanting to shut down the conversation. Well, if someone cannot [01:15:00] see, like, uh, if, if they cannot eq- equate this on the level of the Shoah, of the Holocaust, the Nazi Holocaust, and, and, and see that it is the same
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Evilness, you know, to, for lack of a better term, like these, these same deliberate harm caused. This is not self-defense. This is deliberate collective punishment. It is deliberate starvation, deliberate blocking of, uh, food and medicine, d- trying to make the Palestinian people suffer deliberately so they leave or feel disempowered.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, like, a- and it is not the, it is not one bad regime. It is not one bad leader or three bad leaders. It is, it, like, this has been built into the project of Israel. Like, I d- I don't think that the people that are defending Zionism, that are refusing to use the [01:16:00] word genocide, are actually... They, they might be, um, reckoning with part of the reality, but I don't think they're reckoning with the whole reality, and that is why I push back, and that is why I say the things like Jewish Nazi and apartheid.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, because I need to be provocative, because the, like, the, like, I think people need to be... This is just where I'm coming from. People, like, Jews need to take more of a reckoning. Like, I think there is a lack of reckoning in the Jewish community that still considers themselves Zionists. And anyway, that's where I'm coming from
Mo Husseini: to, to, to go back to my statement and, and, and I, uh, just because I'm going back to my statement doesn't mean that I didn't listen to what you just said. I, I, I was actually listening to what you just said. It doesn't change my statement. And, and what that statement is, is I have empathy. And what I mean by that is I look at, um... So the-- let's, [01:17:00] let's take Israel and, and Palestine away from this conversation for the briefest of moments and, and talk about what we are dealing with in this country. Okay? We're dealing with, in this country, a, um, a significant percentage of, uh, of Americans who look at our own history and, um, and feel regret and feel shame about the things that we have done as a country uh, to our own indigenous population and, uh, to, uh, to the enslaved, uh, Black bodies that we built this nation with, that we profited with, that we, you know, that the families that we destroyed for financial gain.
Mo Husseini: Uh, uh, you know, the entire plantation structure. And let's not [01:18:00] blame this all on the South, man. like there is plenty-- you know, there's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: of racism i-in the North, you know. And, uh, uh, and I have Black friends who will tell you they prefer the racism in the South because the racism in the South is at least upfront and, and that the racism in the North is, is hidden.
Mo Husseini: It's not that there's an absence of racism where I live here in the Pacific Northwest, right? Like, it, it, it, there, there's plenty of it. So anyway, my, my point is that there exists a, uh, segment of the American population that is willing to look at that, uh, rationally uh, ethically and morally and, uh, atone for the mistakes that we made, as a nation and, and try to, uh, repair There is also a significant part of our population, and that is reflected by MAGA, [01:19:00] uh, and the people who support, uh, um, that part of, uh, uh, the political spectrum who are offended. Who are offended that they're even being asked uh, acknowledge those things. And, and you'll say... You, you'll hear things about, you know, like, "Well, I didn't enslave you, and I didn't..."
Mo Husseini: You know, like, uh, uh, that's all... It's like, know, it's like, bro, like I, I get that logically, and yet the advantages that you live with today and, and, and, uh, um, you know, the, the realities that your kids, live with today as advantages are built on the backs of that whether you did it or not, right?
Mo Husseini: Like I've seen some, uh, uh, uh, some horrifying statistics about, you know, how inherited wealth, um, e- even in the middle class, right? Like when you look at the average, uh, net worth of a, uh, successful middle-class Black family and a successful [01:20:00] middle-class white family, they're dramatically different because you have generational wealth
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: that, you know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes, of course
Mo Husseini: you the cabin by the lake, you know? And blah, blah, blah. Like all these things, like they, they, they accrue and, and let's remember that it is still within living memory that this country in, in the United States was, was actively debating whether Black human beings should have the right to vote or, or even have the right to, to go to schools. L- Right? Like these are not-- These are things
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: lifetimes. Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm
Mo Husseini: and yet we are struggling with it in, in a situation that, that is not an active war. So when I say that I have empathy, I have empathy for my, uh, uh, Israeli brothers and sisters who are struggling with the same things. Because I know many Israelis who are deeply ashamed, [01:21:00] of, um, the advantages that they have and that their lives are built on, and, uh, of the structures that created the state that, that allows them to have these privileges. And I know Israelis who respond to that by telling you to like to go F yourself, and the reason we did this was the Holocaust, and we needed a place, and to go back to that language of we needed a place where we could lock the door, where we could be in charge of our own safety, et cetera, et cetera. And, and my, my point is not to, um, to diminish or, or attack either of those. Like I, I still-- I continue to believe that there needs to be, on the Israeli side, a recognition of the, of the harms done and, and the advantages taken and the-- and, and, and, uh, uh, um, the c- the stuff that has been done to the Palestinian people in, in many of the same ways that I, that I think Palestinians owe that to Israelis [01:22:00] as well. But once again, to be critically clear, right? Um, that's not an equality. That's not a symmetry, right? The, the-- There have been harms that Palestinians have, have made to Israelis and to Israeli society, 100%. Like I, I, I, I would be, uh, it, it, it-- I would be dishonest if I claimed that that didn't exist. But, but the scale is completely, completely different.
Mo Husseini: Like, like you, you are talking about, um, you, you are talking about differences that, that, that don't even fit on the same graphs,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes. And, and, uh, and I'll add to that, which is also ongoing
Mo Husseini: Yeah. 100%.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: f- there's an ongoing genocide, and it is
Mo Husseini: look,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Palestinians are living it. Yeah. So
Mo Husseini: no-- And there's, like, a-- And, and even more, even more than that, [01:23:00] right? Like, like at least, at least in the United States, to, to go back to that analogy, at least in the United States, at a certain point, most people agreed that, hey, this whole thing where we enslaved people, like that was bad, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and I don't think that that has, um, uh, the, the, the, that the equivalent kind of realization in, in Israeli society has, has taken root, Like, I don't think that that is a majoritarian perspective in, in-- Like, I do think it is a significant perspective, right? And a, and a growing one in the context of Israel, uh, of Israeli society.
Mo Husseini: I think, uh, when you, when you talk-- When, at least for me, like I've, I've, I've met lots of Israelis, once again, who are, uh, you know, some version of post-Zionist or, or, or, or, or non-Zionist or, or anti-Zionist, right? Like who have deep problems with [01:24:00] what their state has wrought. You look at the people in Breaking the Silence, you look at the, the, you know-- There, there are a lot of organizations within civil society in Israel that are doing the work and are standing up to do the work.
Mo Husseini: I, I-- But I think it's important to, to your point, to, to be very clear that that's not a majority, right? That, that-- And, and it's certainly not a political voting majority, right? Like, like in, in, in the, in the context of, uh, Israel. But once again, like I, w- w- I go back to my term empathy and, and I think about Palestinians and Palestinian society and, and, and the understanding that Palestinians have about, um, kind of, uh, uh, uh, their role in, uh, um, what has been going on and, uh, uh, where they have made mistakes, et cetera, et cetera.
Mo Husseini: And once again, I just, like I, I have to continually say this [01:25:00] The verbal statements can sound like symmetry very easily because I'm, I'm saying them at the same volume and, and with the same cadences, right? That's not to imply symmetries. There are, there are, uh, there are ethical and moral symmetries that are completely different than, than the, than the real, uh, uh, power imbalances and, uh, the, the real scales of suffering that, that exist on the land today
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I agree. And I know, and I, yeah, I, I agree completely. I guess where I continue to have to push back is I don't think that-- I don't feel like that is acknowledged enough in
Mo Husseini: B-by, by whom?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I- b-b-by, by Jewish, by Jewish people. By, by, by pr- by [01:26:00] somebody who I would say a, is a progressive Zionist or a liberal Zionist. By, by the idea of a s- y- you know, may- maybe this is a good segue because y-
Mo Husseini: So, so
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: you write
Mo Husseini: question? And, and I, I, I genuinely don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Please,
Mo Husseini: to this is. So,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: w- when you look at, uh, T'ruah, for example, right? Like the, the--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't know much about that organization
Mo Husseini: Rabbi Jacobs, uh, and, and, and her work, like, uh... Or other liberal Zionist groups, for example, like I, I, I'm not sure that I can-- I-- like I honestly haven't dug too much into T'ruah.
Mo Husseini: Like I've, I've seen their events and stuff like that. I don't know how they describe themselves. But, um, I, I look at their kind of recognition of the harms that have been done and, and of their positions and of [01:27:00] the things that they understand about what's happening, uh, on the land. I-- I, I don't see them as shying away from that.
Mo Husseini: So I, I guess I'm trying to understand who-- like where are you pointing, uh, uh, that at?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. So the, yeah, that's, that's a good question. So somebody I'm thinking of that I... Is somebody who's, uh, like a supporter of J Street, and, um, but then they did mention the new Israel Fund, which I know you have some ties to. Um, but you know, th-this person w-who is a rabbi, um, has said something to me like, "Don't you think Hamas..."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, d- you know, "Don't you think there is a, it, you know, some percentage, maybe half, maybe [01:28:00] more than half, that Hamas is at fault for what's happening in Gaza?" The implication, even, even, even while acknowledging that the Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir regime is like psychopathic, like he would absolutely acknowledge that.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, he's like, you know, basically like, "Well, if you poke the beast, d-don't you think..." You know? And I, I'm just like You know? Like, okay, so if, if a... Y- I just feel like that's victim-blaming. I feel like if a, if a, you know... Would you say that if the, you know, a woman of a sexual assault,
Mo Husseini: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: drunk husband comes home, and she slaps him because he gets too close to her, and then he goes and stabs her, like, you're gonna blame the woman?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I j- I just, I j- I just feel like that sort of [01:29:00] thinking, while I understand it, I just feel like it, it really masks the power imbalance and, and who's at fault. And
Mo Husseini: I think that, that,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: um, yeah
Mo Husseini: I, I, I think you're calling out something that's really important, right? Like, and, and, and so Look, I look at it this way, right? Like, uh, uh, there's a, um, there's a thing-- You know, I, I do a lot of work in corporate narratives and, and, you know, working with businesses on change management and, and trying to help them tell their stories, right? Like, and there's a trick that, uh, comes out of a Japanese, uh, management philosophy.
Mo Husseini: Uh, it's called the Toyota Five Whys, and you just keep asking why, right? Like, like, the, the, the gag is, like, when someone says something to you, you ask why, and then when they answer, you ask why again, and then when they answer, you ask why. You know, you do that five times and, and, and it, it's not so [01:30:00] mechanical as you have to do it exactly five times.
Mo Husseini: It's basically, like, keep asking why until you get to the answer, right? And so,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Why?
Mo Husseini: yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, but my point is, my point is, is, like, look, it, it, it's possible to ask a series of whys that gets you to a blame of Hamas, right? But then you have to ask why Hamas Right? And that gets you, you further down the chain, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, you know, uh, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of people, particularly people who don't understand the history in the region and who don't understand, uh, the politics in the region and who don't understand, like, the frankly Machiavellian kind of ma- machinations that, that happen, uh, i- in the region, right?
Mo Husseini: Like where, um You know, the kind of people who, who, who can't grok when you say like, [01:31:00] "Well, just to be clear, Netanyahu's been supporting Hamas for, for, for decades because they're useful." And then they'll go--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Who can't gr- what did you say? Who can't grok?
Mo Husseini: they, they, they, can't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: okay
Mo Husseini: when you go like, "Well, yeah, no, okay, great, like you don't like Hamas, but then we don't like Hamas, why has Netanyahu been, been supporting Hamas?
Mo Husseini: Like by allowing the money through to Hamas and, and, and, and in fact working to make sure that they continue to get money," right? Like, like why? Well,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: n- you know, now we're starting to dig into reasons. And like at a certain point you are going to get to the original sin here. And the original sin happens before the state of Israel, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and the original sin is the decision that we will not share this land And,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: and, and, to be clear, that [01:32:00] decision happened on both sides, right? like But the-- Let me finish before you jump in, right? Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Yeah, I, yeah
Mo Husseini: both sides. Palestinians said like, "N-no, we don't wanna share this land."
Mo Husseini: And, and, and, and Jews said, "We..."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Did they say that
Mo Husseini: finish, please. Just one second.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, sorry.
Mo Husseini: because
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry.
Mo Husseini: a delicate point, right? Like, like Palestinians said
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: "W-we don't wanna share this land," and, and, and, uh, uh, uh, Jews said, "We don't wanna share this land." But it's important to understand how each of them said, don't wanna share this land." Because the Palestinian response, i-i-- if you go back to the Arab Higher Committee and the k- the kinds of conversations that were happening in the '20s and the '30s with the British, the Palestinians' response was there should be one state that is secular and democratic, and that everyone within that [01:33:00] state should have the same rights within that state, that y- that, that that is what we want. the other side, you had a set of people who were, who were coming fresh from trauma in Europe, wanted to create a European-looking state in the land that privileged Jews. That was the, that was the refusal on, on the Jewish side, and, and, and that was the refusal on the Palestinian side
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can I jump in or
Mo Husseini: Go ahead
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I wanna let you finish? Okay. So I, this doesn't add up for me because w- because what you're saying to me sounds like Jews said, "We don't wanna share the land," and Palestinians said, "We do wanna share the land." So I don't, I don't see how you get Palestinians saying, "We want democratic s- one democratic state with equal rights," and saying that means, I think that means exactly we wanna share the land[01:34:00]
Mo Husseini: that in the sense of like, I mean that in the sense of like we don't wanna partition the land, so i-i-i- is what I was getting at. Sorry. I, I, I s-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Oh, well that, but sh- but sharing and partitioning
Mo Husseini: it's a, it's a it's a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: is, are two different things.
Mo Husseini: what I'm
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: One is sharing and one is dividing. Yeah. Okay. So that, yeah. So to me, I fault, I fault the Zionists like that
Mo Husseini: I think you could, I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 'cause that is actually like an incredibly, like, the, the, what you're articulating is actually like not, not only is that I believe to be an equitable response, but it is an incredibly generous response.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So because I, I'd say the Palestinians could have very well said, "We don't want one democratic state. Get the fuck out of here. There's, you're, you're sending too many people. I'm sorry you're traumatized, but you should let, let the countries that you're coming from take you." You know? Like, so [01:35:00] to me it just like cements how, how generous and, and like the, the Palestinian people were at the time.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, yeah
Mo Husseini: this. Like, I, I don't wanna engage in hagiography of, uh, uh, of Palestinians and, and, uh, uh, you know, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: know what that word means
Mo Husseini: um, the, the making, creating a sainthood, uh, uh, you know. Like, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure. Okay. I don't either. Yeah, no
Mo Husseini: in the context of what was happening then, the, the, the, the Palestinians wanted to find a solution that was acceptable within the context of a British, uh, uh, political and military mandate that controlled the land, right?
Mo Husseini: So, so when you hear things like the Arab Higher Committee and, and, and the, and the k- the kinds of conversations around the, you know, the Peel white papers and all that other stuff, the Palestinian positions are, are, are, are not a function of like, "Oh my God, we're just, like, such lovely, awesome democratic people."
Mo Husseini: They're reacting within the context of a framework that says like, [01:36:00] "We believe that this is what is possible," right? I, I, I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Understood. Yeah
Mo Husseini: important to understand, uh, uh, that first of all, right? Like, so I don't wanna engage in like, "Oh my God, we were just, like, such awesome democratic, like, fantastic people."
Mo Husseini: Like, that, that's not what I'm saying on any level.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I appreciate that clarification yeah
Mo Husseini: calculations, uh, at that time that would've been different had a, uh, uh, a political entity that they controlled existed at that time, right? Like, the, I wanna put that on one side. I think on the other side, the part that Palestinian- where Palestinians really fucked up, really fucked up, and, and, and it's an irony, is that we did not understand the antisemitism of the West. And, and what I mean by that, that is, is, is, is that in many ways, to me, uh, the creation of the state, uh, of [01:37:00] Israel, uh, as it exists today, uh, is a function of, uh, Western antisemitism and the, uh, um, uh, the- brilliance, frankly, of early Zionists taking advantage of that, uh, antisemitism, right? Like, like if you look at the internal, um, writings of, uh, British politicians in the '20s and, and, you know, the, the early teens, like they're trying to, a- and, and I'm, I'm, I'm using their language, solve the Jewish problem, right?
Mo Husseini: They, they, they're not doing it out of a, a deep love for the Jews or, or a sense of Zionism or anything like that. Like, when you are...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. They're trying to get the Jews out of their country
Mo Husseini: Like, you, you are engaging with people who fundamentally continue to believe that the Jews are other, [01:38:00] right? Like that there is, that no, no matter how long you live in this country, whether you've been here since the, uh, 1100s or the 1200s, and, and no matter how, uh, English you are, you are still a Jew, and you will never be English enough.
Mo Husseini: And in fact, if you, if you go and you look at, uh, some of the debates in Parliament about the Balfour Declaration and things like that, like some of the most principled kind of opposition to that is coming from Jewish people who i- in,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Montague
Mo Husseini: uh, who are coming, going like, "What the F are you doing here?"
Mo Husseini: You know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: I think that, a-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: that guy m- yeah, go on
Mo Husseini: and I think that it's important to recognize that, that, that, that, that there was an equivalent political calculation made by early Zionists to, that, that is equivalent to the political, uh, uh, calculation made by early, you know, Palestinians in that math, right? And I think that Palestinians [01:39:00] fundamentally underestimated the, uh, uh, um, the antisemitism of the West and the desire to solve the Jewish problem, and, um, I think they also fundamentally underestimated the, uh, colonial perspective of the colonial powers who saw this nascent state, y- in, from, you know, from an early, uh, uh, from an early perspective of European Jews installed in the land as, as, as a bastion for, uh, f- for European interests in the region, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I think that that was an Arab miscalculation, and I think that frankly, a- as a, a, as a political entity, early Zionists understood European politics. Like, you know, uh, uh, turn-of-the-century Palestinians were not playing with full information and with, with, with, w- were not playing with a, uh, [01:40:00] uh, with an unmarked deck, and, uh, early Zionists understood the math.
Mo Husseini: You know, they understood the, the, they understood the calculations in ways that Palestinians never understood it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Well, but let me ask, so what... You said Palestinians fucked up, to use your words. Like, what-- Had they understood that, what could they have done differently? Like,
Mo Husseini: don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: don't see what the error was
Mo Husseini: uh, I, I, I, I, I'm not sitting here blaming Palestinians. I, I really am not because I don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: was anything that Palestinians could have done to, to change the outcome. Certainly, I think that that was potentially possible before the rise of Hitler Right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like I think I, I...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. How?
Mo Husseini: Because I think that after World War II, th- there was going to be no conversation[01:41:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. But I mean, the, y- but '36 to '39, like the Arab Revolt, like the, it...
Mo Husseini: but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: feel like e- enough people could read the writing on the wall
Mo Husseini: to '39 is also, is also a, a... In Europe, you are seeing the rise of antisemitism as an organization. Like, it's not like Jews were fine till '39 in Europe, right? Like, there, there was already Jews trying to leave Europe and head to the United States and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: to, uh, uh, uh, you know, other places, including, uh, in- including Palestine. like, it, the writing was already on the wall in terms of what was already happening in Europe, right? Like, once what, once Hitler, uh, w- w- you know, once the Weimar Republic ends, really, like, you understand what's happening
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I guess I just don't understand where the, what, what the main fuck up is. Uh, but may- maybe it's not worth
Mo Husseini: my point.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: ex-
Mo Husseini: think there's a fuck-up. Like, [01:42:00] I, I don't think Palestinians had control of it, uh, beyond, um, beyond kind of the early days, if that makes sense. And, and even then, I don't think they had much control. Like There is no Palestinian agency, for fuck's sake, right? but, but, but but to be clear,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: there's no agency at all. Like, like, you know, like one of the things that, that I studied, uh, very deeply, uh, when I was at Berkeley was the history of Vietnam um, the history of that conflict and, and kind of engaging with that conflict and having, uh, having a, um, much deeper, like not like, "Oh, what happened in the 1960s?"
Mo Husseini: understanding of that conflict, right? Because you can go back and there's like a famous story about like Chi Minh getting his, uh, fingers, uh, trapped in the door at Versailles when they slammed the door on him [01:43:00] when he was like walking in to talk about what needed to happen with Vietnam after World War I, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and this is, this is in the teens, right? Like, this is before Ho Chi Minh is anybody that anybody in the West has heard of, right? Like at, at that point, um The Vietnamese person wanting to be in the room when the future of Vietnam was discussed had the door slammed on them because little brown and yellow and, and, and, and, uh, non-Christian people, don't trouble yourselves with these decisions.
Mo Husseini: We'll make them for you, right? Like, that's what Versailles was, right? Like, like it was a bunch of, a bunch of global powers, AKA white European powers that were, that were coming together to carve up the world, right? And that's where you end up with, uh, Mandate, [01:44:00] uh, Mandate Palestine. That's where you end up with countries like Iraq and Syria and all these things that are, you know, straight lines drawn across a map by people. Uh, not people in the region, right? Like people who are sitting in, in Whitehall and, uh, Quai d'Orsay and, and deciding, uh, uh, what the world should look like and dividing colonies a- amongst themselves and handing out like German territory to each other. Um, we were never involved in that conversation. We were not allowed to be in those rooms. Uh, when we were involved in those conversations, we, we were, uh, we were involved in those conversations on an, uh, "Well, why don't you give us... You know, we're gonna open public commentary, uh, for you." Like, "Oh, great. Well, we've listened to you and, and, and, and go fuck yourself now." And I think that, that Palestinians um, ab ovo, uh, disadvantaged in that conversation because we, y- [01:45:00] you know, this is, uh, this is a moment where you're talking about brown people and white people engaging with other white people, and there's a hierarchy of race and civilization.
Mo Husseini: And yes, Europe did not necessarily look at Jews as fully white, they looked at them as far more white and far more European than, you know, excuse my language, the fucking Arabs, right? Like, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: i- in a room where, um- Uh, i-i-in a room where members of the Arab Higher Committee want to come and talk to you, and a room where, uh, people from the World Zionist Congress want to come and talk to you, uh, one of those groups looks more like you. One of those groups, uh, knows where to put their pocket watch. Um, they--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yep. Yep
Mo Husseini: knows how to hold the teacup. Uh, you know, and, and I, I don't say those [01:46:00] things, uh, uh, lightly, right? Like, those things matter. We see it today. Like, we, we, we see it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: the gatekeeping and, and the kinds of shitty comments you get about, um, you know, uh, um, uh, Black American, uh, uh, dialect, right? Like, as, as being somehow less than, even though if you actually...
Mo Husseini: Like, for me as a writer, like, I look at, uh, I look at Black language and, and find it, like, beaut- like, deeply poetic and beautiful and amazing and informed by these, like, years of church and all this stuff. And yet today, in, in kind of modern, uh, modern, uh, w-w-white majority discourse, that's somehow looked down on, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, that the people who speak like that are less cultured or less smart or, or any of those things. And, and that's just, like, a human reality. And I think that, you know... So when I say that I think Palestinians made a mistake, I mean a mistake i-in the sense of, uh, uh, political framing. I don't mean a mistake in the sense [01:47:00] of impact, um, because I don't think we had any, uh, choice or agency at that time.
Mo Husseini: I, I think these were decisions being made in rooms far away from anything we were invited to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And just to be clear, do you think the early Zionists and the Jewish immigrants, the people from Europe coming over had agency and could have done it differently?
Mo Husseini: I think it depends who you're talking about. Um, uh, I, uh, I, I think that the vast majority of, uh, uh, of Jews coming to Israel in or, Palestine to, to, to create Israel in, in that era were just coming to get away from shit. Like, I, I, I don't think they came with, like, a, a, a burning Zionist zeal, if that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I think they came to get away from, uh, centuries if not [01:48:00] millennia of oppression in Europe. Um, I think that, uh, um, and I think that this is where, uh, you know, a lot of people get sideways. It's like, I-- look, I, I, I do not deny and have never denied, like, the sense of a Jewish connection to the land of Palestine, to the land of Israel, whatever you wanna call it, but to that land between the river and the sea. It's historic, it's ancient, it's lasted for millennia, and it's, it's spiritual. It's tied to their belief system. And, and don't, don't get me wrong, I, I, I don't think that that was the motivation for going there. I think that the motivation was like, "Look, get the fuck out of here. Let's go. Where should we go?"
Mo Husseini: You had a bunch of people who were like, "Let's go to the US," and the US said like, "Oh, fuck no. We don't want you here." Right? Like, that's, that's the data. When you look at, when you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: the US is like, "No, we don't want more Jewish immigrants." Same thing in the UK. [01:49:00] And yeah, like w- w- the British were saying like, "Well, why don't you go-- Why, why don't you go to Palestine?"
Mo Husseini: And even when they got there, they weren't letting them off the boats in, in, in many ways, right? Like, like this was, um... I think this was a place that was, uh, a good place to go for them. It also aligned with this historical kind of connection to the land, a sense of a connection to the land that I think has been, um, weaponized in, in modern times, if that makes sense, and, and, and, and inflated
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: what it ever was prior to, uh, uh, Zionism.
Mo Husseini: Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Great. And
Mo Husseini: from a spiritual connection into like, no, no, no, this has been long been a historic political yearning. And, and, and I think that, you know, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes
Mo Husseini: book, uh, on the Bund and, and all of the kinds of conversations that were actually happening when Zionism happened is that, you know, in fact, the majority of Jews did not view it as [01:50:00] like a long-held political ambition.
Mo Husseini: It was a spiritual connection. Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Thank you.
Mo Husseini: the same way Muslims feel about Mecca, Like, one of these days, I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: on a hajj, right? Like, it doesn't mean that that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. Whi- which is, which is different, like, because the, to have an idea even in a spiritual sense of the land is... And, and you can legitimately have that, but that is different than saying you are the indigenous people of that land, that worked that land, that know that land, that knew the native agriculture, the species of the land.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, and that is, I think, what drives me crazy when, you know, Zionists today will talk about this sort of historic spiritual longing for an idea of this land because it is talked about in the Torah and, and [01:51:00] equating it as, you know, the same as the continuity of presence that Palestinian people had, many of whom would have actually been the descendants from the Jews that lived there 2,000 years ago.
Mo Husseini: irony of it all, is that fundamentally what
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: with is i- if you, i- i- if you look at the, if you look at the way that humans behave throughout the world, Like uh, people who are conquered don't move They, they adapt to the, the, the conquering
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right.
Mo Husseini: you know, uh, when, uh, when Rome takes over France, the French don't leave. just become Gauls, right? Like, and, and they, they, they adopt Roman ways and they adopt Latin and, uh, all of a [01:52:00] sudden French becomes a Romance language because it's taking words from Latin. But those people aren't any less French for, for having been run by Italians from Rome.
Mo Husseini: There weren't enough fucking Romans to populate the Roman Empire, right? Um, I, I think the same is true in the Middle East, right? Like, another term I fucking hate but get trapped into using all the time, but, like, uh, if I say
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: al-Sham, uh, most, uh, Westerners get confused. But, um, I think if you look at, um, I, I think if you look at the Islamic, uh, uh, conquest, the, the, you know, the Muslims out of peninsular Arabia, they come and they basically say, like, "Here's the deal.
Mo Husseini: You can become Muslim or you can stay not Muslim. If you're not Muslim, here's the laws and, uh, you have to pay a tax," like the dhimmi, uh, uh, uh, kind of taxes, uh, uh, and things like that. uh, "We're, we're gonna leave some administrators here and we're going on to conquer [01:53:00] the next fucking thing," right? Like, and, uh, that's what the Romans did, that's what the Greeks did.
Mo Husseini: That's, like, every empire does this. That's how you extend it. That's what the British did. I mean, like, when you look at the East India Company taking over all of India, like, the number of people it takes in the army, uh, that take over all of India is like, it's comical how few people it is, right? Like, it, it's not like British people took over India. British people Anglicized India. They Anglicized, uh, uh, much of the culture and the politics there, but the people remained Indian, if that makes sense. And, and I think that, that there's no different. I think, I, I think that most Palestinians today who are Palestinian are, uh, uh, are, are the descendants of, of and Jews and, and, and, and others from that region who have just, like, adapted to whatever is running them now.
Mo Husseini: "Okay, we're-- I guess we're Roman now. Oh, I, I guess we're [01:54:00] Ottoman now. I guess we're..." You know, whatever, whatever math that happens to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: And, um, you know, the irony of it all is, like, I absolutely, you know, like, I absolutely believe that, that, that Jews have a connection to the land, but I just don't feel that anybody's connection to any land is, um, is a connection that can be used to oppress someone else's connection to that land.
Mo Husseini: That's, that's where I draw my lines, if that makes sense.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure, sure. Um, I, in the spirit of, um
Mo Husseini: Please
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Giving you permission to narrate freely as a Palestinian. Um, because I feel like a lot of, you know, I do feel like there's this irony and tension to this conversation where, like, I feel like I'm being like, "Say more mean things about Zionists," and you're like, "I'm not gonna."
Mo Husseini: Look, dude, like, don't get me wrong, and, and this
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but,
Mo Husseini: this is
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [01:55:00] no, I...
Mo Husseini: get trapped.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Wait, wait. No, no, no. Don't, don't, don't... Oh, sorry. But that's... Okay. I, what I want to say is you, you've been involved in lots of, like, dialogues with, with Israelis and Jews. Like, I ju- just for a moment, without having to explain yourself or, or, or defend empathy, which I know y- y- which was obvious you have in abundance.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I... Can you just articulate, like, what are the most frustrating things as a Palestinian, as somebody deeply familiar with the history? Like, what, what are just these things that you have in these conversations which you just feel like are, you know, you, you, you have a hard time with and you're frustrated with?
Mo Husseini: mean, I think that [01:56:00] I think there's a profound tragedy in, um and the Palestinian cause. And, and that profound tragedy is that our oppressors are Some of the most oppressed people in the world Historically, right? And, and it, and, and, and it makes, it makes any of our very real losses and our very real pains, uh, very easy for people to pull up into a scorecard, right? And, and you see it with the, you see it with the genocide conversation, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like a Palestinian cannot in all good faith say to, uh, say to the world like, "Look By this, according to this set of [01:57:00] rules that you all agreed to in 1950, when this, when, when the Palestinian, uh, des- uh, when the destruction of Gaza was not a live issue, what you agreed was genocide in 1950, these are the rules. I, I can print them out, I can look at them, and I can apply them to this situation and say like, "Dude, like, uh, explain to me how this is not what you wrote down in 1950." You can't say that without somebody going, "Well, about the Shoah? Are you comparing Gaza to the Shoah?" You know, and, and it very quickly, uh, because of the fact that our oppressors are historically so oppressed, um, because of the fact that our oppressors have historically had their story centered [01:58:00] with, with good reason.
Mo Husseini: Like, just to be clear, like this is not, is, this is, this is, this is-- No, no, just let, let me finish my statement,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah, sorry.
Mo Husseini: I understand why Jewish suffering is, has been centered after the Shoah, right? It makes it really hard to advocate for yourself, to advocate for the rights of your people in a way that does not sound like you are dismissing the suffering of Jews. And that's why I try to be as, um, uh, empathetic as I can. And I just wanna be very clear, like I'm not deferring to Jewish feelings. Like I'm not trying to s- continue to center their feelings by changing the way that I, uh, uh, that I advocate for Palestinians.
Mo Husseini: It's merely that, that, that I ha- that I insist upon a, a sensitivity about being [01:59:00] clear about what I'm saying because, because it's such a weaponized space, and because it's so easy to take people out of context and make them sound like they are anti-Semites, to make them sound like they are i- in some way, shape, or form advocating for the, for, for, for a continued oppression of Jews, which I'm not.
Mo Husseini: Like, look, to... I, and I, and I think that that's true for, uh, Palestinians. I, I think most, I don't think that, um Like I, like I, I know that there is a terror. Like I know that there is a terror in, in, in Jewish culture the Arabs are dying to like just take over and oppress all the Jews and, and kill all the Jews and kick them out and whatever, and like... [02:00:00] I, I know that that exists. Um, but to be clear, like that's what we're living with
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: That, that, that's what we see every day, uh, from ministers of the government that, that sits over us, who, who say things that in, in any other country of- in the world w- would be called out as racism, would be, would be called out as oppression and, and apartheid and, and war crimes.
Mo Husseini: And yet, um, there is, there is a dispensation given to the State of Israel that does not exist, uh, uh, for other states. And I, I think once again, that is a function of the Shoah, that is a function of this aboriginal, uh, um, uh, Western oppression of the Jews. And don't get me wrong, like I'm not saying like like, you know, uh, uh, Muslims were [02:01:00] awesome to, to Jews throughout history. Um, what I'm saying is that Muslims were way fucking better to, Jews than Europeans, Um, I, I don't think,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: have had a particular antipathy towards Jews any more than they have a particular antipathy towards, uh, uh, Christians, if that makes sense. Like, like, speaking, I'm not talking about what exists today as a function of the, the, the State of Israel and, and, and its behavior. I, I think historically, if you go back, like the perception of Jews is like, "Yeah, they're close." People of the Book where they're not quite, but, you know, close enough kind of thing. Um, did we, uh, you know, did, did, did, did, did Muslims treat, uh, um, Jews and Christians as absolutely 100% equal citizens?
Mo Husseini: Absolutely not. Like, I'm not here to pretend, uh, anything else. But we, we did not engage in the kinds of, uh, [02:02:00] industrial wholescale, uh, uh, massacres of Jews that, that existed, uh, uh, in Europe. But, but, but to, to kind of come back to it, I, I, I go back to my father, I go back to stories about my grandfather, I go back to stories about my great-grandfather, and, and these are stories that are, you know, written in books, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, uh, um, they had, uh, they had familial and social, uh, relationships with other Jewish Palestinian families, historically, and have always had them. Like we, uh, uh, we as a group, had to en- uh, e- engage in a society that was far more multicultural than most places in the world, right? Like, like the, the, like y- there weren't many places on the planet that had as many kind of Jews [02:03:00] and Christians and Arabs and Armenians and bl- like there was all kinds of people in the, in air
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: "Holy Land," right? And, and w- for the most part, the people who lived there figured it out. so when you ask me what I think the hardest part is, I, I think the hardest part, uh, the, the hardest part, like once again for me, like just comes down to this idea of like how do you advocate for your people when your opponent is, is somebody that you can look at, uh, uh, um And with all honesty say like, "Look man, I feel bad for you.
Mo Husseini: I feel bad for all the shit that you went through." Uh, uh, you know, be it the Holocaust, be it, be, be it, uh, Europe, be it, like you name it. Like, I feel bad for all of these historical traumas that, that have been, uh, uh, placed on the backs of Jewish people But none of those give you the right to do that to me And that turn, that, that turn, that little [02:04:00] pivot to say, "But none of that," the second you say but at the end of that statement, like you're already suspect Because for people, for people to whom that history is the largest thing in the rearview mirror, hearing the word but is like, "What do you mean but? Like, how dare you? My family was massacred at Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen," whatever, right? Like, like, you know, it sounds like a Even when it's not intended as a even when it's intended as
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: of, uh, uh, of empathy and sympathy and understanding, uh, and, and, and just as a like, "Hey man, I get this.
Mo Husseini: I understand this, but..." Right? Like, that but becomes weaponized, right? Like, it becomes like you're diminishing the Holocaust, you're diminishing Jewish trauma, you don't care about Jewish fears, blah, blah, blah, blah. And [02:05:00] even when you are coming from a place that, that isn't, that isn't that, it becomes hard to do that, especially in the context of a world that has plenty of bad faith actors
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Well, uh, uh, and I feel like th- this is obviously an issue of, th- this is just like a semantic thing, and I'm, I'm thinking out loud here, but it seems like
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It should be so obvious that the but could be a, "And that's why." Like, you know, a- as, as, you know, we've suffered, you know, like, w- may- could you perhaps not say, "You've suffered horrible historic trauma and injustice, and that's why you should understand how wrong it is to repeat that injustice on another people"?
Mo Husseini: can I, can I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, should [02:06:00] be able to say that, and you should be able to say that
Mo Husseini: you something? Like, A, partially that is true, which-- and, and, and it's true, uh, both in people like you who, who, who are Jewish and, and are seeing that, and it's also true in, in a lot of Israelis that I know. And, and I mean this genuinely, right? Like, I have conversations, uh, I have conversations with Israeli friends and, and their attacks on, uh, uh, Israeli culture and, and Jewish culture coming from the inside are even more-- They're like, they're beyond the point where I'm comfortable.
Mo Husseini: It's like, dude, I can't, like... Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, they are able to critique inside the family in a way that I am not w- w-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: with,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: But, but I think that the problem with your statement i- is not a problem with the statement itself, it's, it's a problem with human nature. And I think that, um, uh, that, that pivot from, from a but [02:07:00] to a and that is why, um, um presupposes that, uh, that, that trauma is easy to get over Right? And, and, and I think that that's part of the problem is, is, is, is look You know, in, in the longer piece that I haven't published and will not be publishing, like I talk about antisemitism and I talk about, uh, the weaponization of antisemitism and the weaponization of the weaponization of antisemitism, right? Because I th- I think that they're, th- they're connected, right? Like there's three things and they're connected, right?
Mo Husseini: Antisemitism is fucking real. It fucking exists. It's fucking toxic, and, and it, and it's killing people, okay? Um, and, and it, and, and, and it's doing it in a way that, that, [02:08:00] uh, anti-I-Islamic sentiment is as well, right? Like, like people are getting attacked in places of worship. People are getting attacked for wearing certain things, for believing certain things, and, and with no connection to their actual political views or anything like that.
Mo Husseini: Lit- literally for, uh, religious and visual and identity reasons, right? That exists. I am not minimizing it. And, and l- let's be super fucking clear, it's rising. It's increasing, And, uh, um, there are reasons it's increasing. I don't think, uh, the state of Israel's behavior is helping, uh, that de- decrease, to put it mildly. Um, but, but nonetheless, it exists, and I'm not here to justify it in any way, shape, or form. I think it's also true that the state of Israel and many others who support it have weaponized the charge of antisemitism and have, have, uh, um... And in fact, I, I think have made a strategic error by [02:09:00] like, uh, over-egging the pudding.
Mo Husseini: Like I, you know, like I might give you the benefit of the doubt on people that I've never heard of, but like when you're accusing like Ms. Rachel of being like one of the top 10 antisemites is like, I, I'm like, I'm sorr- like, what? Like, like y- you've jumped the shark
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: point, and like you've, you've,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: me permission to just fucking ignore you, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, like because
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: like I, I'm not an idiot and like I, uh, like I've seen this lady's TV shows and it's like I, I, I don't mean this dismissively. Like, they're-- it, it, it's like accusing Mr. Rogers of being a racist. like, huh? Like, what? Like, I, uh... Okay. But anyway, but, but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But the problem is...
Mo Husseini: Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: go on.
Mo Husseini: so you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: as kind of step two, which is like people are weaponizing antisemitism and, and in that process, what they're doing i-i-is, is they're cheapening the charge, right? Like I, I [02:10:00] think it was, uh, Bassem Youssef who was on a thing. He was like, "You know, if you're accusing, uh, uh, Ms.
Mo Husseini: Rachel of being an antisemite, you should accuse me too, because, like, I'm honored by the comparison to her," right? Like, uh, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm. Yeah
Mo Husseini: thing that you're accusing people of, like, doesn't fucking mean anything anymore, right? But I think that there's a terrible next step, which is the weaponization of the weaponization, which is like people-- a-and I see this in the pro-Palestine movement to some extent, who, because of the weaponization of antisemitism, have, like, started to drift into something like, well, antisemitism is not a thing, or, or like they, they, they begin to, uh, they begin to almost deprecate the realities of some very real antisemitisms and say like, "Oh, no.
Mo Husseini: Well, that's anti-Israelism." And it's like, look, dude, I would be the first person to tell you, like, uh, like, it is not to criticize the state of [02:11:00] Israel. Absolutely not. 100% not antisemitic to criticize the state of Israel. possible to criticize the state of Israel in ways that are antisemitic, and that is an important distinction, and it is, it, it, it is possible to engage in critiques of, uh, perspectives on Israel that are antisemitic.
Mo Husseini: And, um, the diminishing of the existence of antisemitism merely because the accusation is getting, uh, uh, bandied about by pro-Israel folks in ridiculous ways is, is also, is, is also an overcorrection in the wrong direction, if that makes sense. um- Because of all that, it just makes it a very, uh, uh, it makes it a very fraught discussion. it makes it a very hard place to, uh To have real [02:12:00] conversations between real people without, people stressing out about what they're saying and how they're saying it and, and, and how they're engaging with things. It's, it's why I'm, uh, uh, it's why I'm so obsessed with words and making sure that I use the right ones and, and, and, and, and, and not the wrong ones. Not because they change my argument, but because I'm trying to ensure that the conversation, stays focused on actually solving a problem and not a problem
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can we take a two-minute break?
Mo Husseini: as you want, brother
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. And are you...
Mo Husseini: can
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I d- I don't, I, we, I know we've already been going for a while. Okay. Um, yeah, let's just, I just have to, uh, do something real quick. Let's just take a two-minute break. I'll be,
Mo Husseini: gonna, I'm, I'm
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but I, yeah, I'm... Okay, great[02:13:00] [02:14:00] [02:15:00]
Mo Husseini: Hey,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: right. Um, hey
Mo Husseini: You
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fine. I'm fine. Um, I have, uh, sometimes I have, like, little tics I do that I've had my whole life if, if, if that's what you're
Mo Husseini: no. I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: referring to
Mo Husseini: you, you felt like I was tiring you out, and I apologize if that's the case
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Oh, no, no, you're not tiring me out. No, no, this is, this is getting, it's getting good. Um, y- you just said some [02:16:00] stuff that I would like to address, but I, I kind of wanna do it within the context, within... I, I think I could weave it into this context, which is I'd, I'd like to read something, a quote from your previous essay, if you don't mind.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, and maybe we could just dive into this idea for a little bit. Um Okay. These are your words. "I've spent the years since 9/11 being asked, 'Do you conden-- do you condemn?' As if my failure to denounce a thing I had nothing to do with quickly enough constituted in itself an admission of guilt. I lived through seeing the machinery of collective suspicion turn every Arab and Muslim in America into a category to be managed, surveilled, processed, deplaned, no-fly-listed, and occasionally invited to the FBI office for a chat with a [02:17:00] man whose name was unlikely to be his name.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I know what it feels like when an entire, when an entire society decides that you are individually That, that who you are individually matters less than which box you tick. I know what it feels like to stop being a person and start being a representative of a people you have no power over and no quarrel with.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I lived that in my body every day for twenty years, and now I'm watching the identical machinery, different nouns, but the same architecture and the same wiring and the same fucking trap being aimed at a Jewish people-- at Jewish people. Do you condemn Israel? The same rigid test or the same rigged test, the same endless queue of accusations where the moment you condemn one thing, the next charge is already loaded into the breach, and the moment you hesitate, the hesitation is, is itself the verdict.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I refuse it in both directions, not because the situations are morally equivalent. The power is not symmetrical, [02:18:00] the responsibility is not symmetrical, the suffering is not symmetrical, and I have never pretended otherwise. I refuse it because the machinery is identical, and the machinery is the enemy. So that's the quote.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I, I, I, I guess I, I would like to unpack this and, and potentially push back on it more and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The, the, the reason I wanna push back on it is not because of the first part. I, I do think the, the, the, you know, uh, uh, your lived experience as a member of the, quote, "Arab world" or, you know, somehow implicated as being a part, you know, 9/11, like I, I n- I don't at all agree that that is something that any Muslim or Arab person in this country should have had to go through.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [02:19:00] However, and, and maybe, maybe I have a contradiction, y- you know, which, which I'd be happy if, if you could point out. I'm, you know, I... Maybe my thinking isn't aligned. But, but I do feel like As Jewish people and as representatives and, and if someone today who is, who is, um, part of Jewish institutions, which are by and large Zionist institutions and organizations, I do feel like we should have to condemn, condemn what's happening on, in our name in Gaza and in Palestine.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, because we are the, is very much part of that machinery of, um, not in the machinery you speak of, but to use machinery in a different context. Like, yeah, [02:20:00] yeah. Like we miseducated our, we miseducate our children in our communities, and we are miseducated about the nature of, of Israel and Palestine. We send our youth, s- such as the program that I was in when I went to high school as 15, where I was, you know, just, it's, it's ostensibly a liberal arts Jewish program, but you spend a week going to the IDF learning how to ma- sh- sh- shoot a gun, and then are told, "You know, if you want to, you can make Aliyah in two years and do this for real."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, uh, we send kids on birthright trips that, you know, uh, uh, um, that teach propaganda. We send on March of the Living trips that weaponize Jewish trauma, historical trauma. Like, and, and those synagogues and those, the federations that host events where they send IDF soldiers and are marked as family events, like [02:21:00] th- this is, this is very much part of that machinery.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, I, I think it's actually a strategic error and a moral failing in some ways to, to say, to not hold up American Jews that are, that are part of any sort of Jewish institution, um, which are again, by and large Zionist organizations to say, um, "Do you condemn?" Like, I, I think we actually have to be asked this question.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't think we are trustworthy otherwise. And, but how do you see it?
Mo Husseini: I, ethically I reject that.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: I, reject it, I reject it on strictly ethical grounds. And, and I reject it on strictly ethical grounds because I think it's a, it, it's a conflation of the individual and the identity. and, and for me, it becomes about choice. And, and, and, and I mean that very specifically, which is, um [02:22:00] Look, one of the things that, that I've, I've taught my, my son and, and it's one of the things that, that I, uh, stick to is, um, I don't comment on things that people can't, uh, uh, that, that, that people did not have a hand in choosing. And, and what I mean by that is, like for example, um If someone posts a picture of themselves, like, and I wanna compliment them, I don't say, "You're beautiful," or, "You're handsome," or, or whatever. Like, I comment on choices that they've made, right? Like, "I love that dress." Like, "I love your hair." Like, the-- those are, those are affirmative decisions that somebody has made, that, that, that, that, that they have made to distinguish themselves or to categorize themselves. And, um, [02:23:00] I think that those kinds of things are open to critique, those kinds of things are open to assumption. So, for example, if you come to me and you say to me that, uh, I'm a Republican, right? Like, I, I feel exactly zero compunction about, about criticizing your decision to be a Republican, about criticizing your, your beliefs, your political da, da, da, da, da, you name it, and on and on and on and on, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I don't have any problem with that. Um, I do have a problem with, uh, going to someone and going like, "Well, your, your Blackness Means I need you to Kanye West Right? Or I need you, I, because of your Blackness, I need [02:24:00] you to denounce, uh, the Reverend Wright and his, uh, uh, uh, his positions on the American state. Or because of your Blackness, um, I need you to have an opinion on, uh, what 2 Live Crew is, uh, is saying in, uh... or NWA or any of these things. It's like, dude, I didn't, I didn't choose to be Black, and your assumption that my Blackness connects me to these people in, in some way, shape, or form is in and of itself racist, right?
Mo Husseini: So it-- L-let me continue that. So if someone comes to me and says, like, "I'm a Likudnik," "I support Netanyahu," or, "I think what Smotrich is doing..." Like, sure, absolutely. Like, you can have any, uh, critique of those positions that, that, that, that leap to mind, depending on who you are and, and what [02:25:00] your critiques are. The-- Where I draw the line is the assumption that because you are Jewish, you somehow support Smotrich, because you, uh, uh, because your last name is Cohen, that, that that says anything about your perspective on Palestinian rights or, uh, uh, who should have a, um, uh, who should be able to return to the land. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, that-that's where I draw my line
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I understand. Yeah, I understand, but, and, and maybe we're not saying things that are contradictory because I feel like the, the people that I'm trying to implicate here are the people involved in the organizations that are actively choosing to align with Israel and Zionism right now
Mo Husseini: like, to me, that would be a fair distinction. Like, look, uh, I think, I think if you wanna go and challenge J Street on their, uh, uh, uh, on their, uh, support of a two-state solution that is not a [02:26:00] two-state solution, that is, like, a one state plus a Bantustan, like, we, uh, that's-- To me, that's fully above board.
Mo Husseini: Like, I don't have a problem with that. Where, where,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: S-
Mo Husseini: have a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, but so I guess...
Mo Husseini: a problem is
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: I'd like to introduce you to my friend, uh, you know, Mike Cohen." I'm like, "Oh, Cohen. Fucking, you know, that guy's Jewish." And, "Okay. Uh, what's your position on, you know, what's happening in Gaza?
Mo Husseini: What's your..." You know, like, it's like I'm making assumptions right off the bat that I wouldn't make uh, you know, Susie Smith walked into the room. And that, that's where it turns for me because I've been, I've been on the other side of that. I've been at the fucking dinner tables where I'm getting the looks and it's like, "Well, what do you think about Bin Laden and what's going on?" It's like, dude, I, like I, I got n- I have nothing to fucking do with Bin Laden. Like, this guy would, you know...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [02:27:00] Yeah.
Mo Husseini: but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, I, I g- I get it. I gu- I guess where, where I'm trying to say is, like, I t- I think w- we're at risk. I, like, it, it is my assessment that the vast majority of Jewish institutions are fundamentally acting immoral right now because they are, they are not speaking out, and they are continuing to center the...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: At, at, at, at, you know, they're... At best, they have tepid, uh, sign of b- both sidesy, like, oh, maybe th- they'll... The, the most liberal of a synagogue will host some sort of Palestinian Is- J- Jewish-Israeli dialogue night, or they'll, you know, sh- But, like, the, the, uh... But the, the vast majority are not, are not speaking out in a way that feels like they are meeting the moment
Mo Husseini: I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: of [02:28:00] genocide in any substantive way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and at worst, like, th- I've spoken about this before on the show, like, federations are hosting events with IDF soldiers,
Mo Husseini: look, I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: in-
Mo Husseini: get me wrong, like, I think, I think an like, like holding institutions to account is very different than holding individuals to account, right? Like, and, and I, and I make a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But the individuals are a part of those institutions, and they are making decisions, and they are... Yeah
Mo Husseini: that many of those individuals are trying to change those institutions as well, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like I've dealt with, look, I- I've dealt with people engaging with, um, uh, you know, to, to, to, to use your language, with their liberal, progressive, you know, Zionist shul that is, that is still kind of like, uh, Jewish supremacy light. Um, you know what I mean? And, and these people want a way to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: to change the conversation with their shuls and [02:29:00] within their shul and, and, and to bring a different perspective and all of those kinds of things.
Mo Husseini: And, and I honor those people, and I think those people are doing the work. And I think, look, much of that same work is happening in, in Palestinian culture, right? Like, um- Uh, like I, I, I think actually a, a salient example is BDS, Like, like, y- y- you know, I believe strongly in, in, uh, in, in boycotts. I, I believe strongly in, in, in the act of divestment, and I, and I believe strongly that, that Israel should be sanctioned. Uh, um, but I believe that that's true for any country that is acting in ways where we are trying to change the behavior of the country. It's not pointed at Israel. I honestly think, like, we should be boycotting, divesting, and sanctioning more countries. Like I, I, I don't like what E- Egypt is doing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Mo Husseini: Like, well, you know, we, we do it to Russia with, uh, without a second thought, or [02:30:00] we do it to many other countries without a second thought. I think it is an, uh, uh, if we claim to be non-violent, I think those are the kinds of things that we should be doing, right? But even as somebody that supports, uh, boycotts, divestments, and sanctions, I have my issues with the organization.
Mo Husseini: And to be clear, my issues with the organization are minimal, right? They're about where they draw the line on certain organizations and certain types of engagements that are happening or, or not happening, right? And, um, that is a, that is a disagreement within the family that, that aligns with kind of a greater mission, but, but still fundamentally, like I can look at BDS and go like, like there are, there are problematic aspects to the ways that, uh, this is sometimes applied without negating kind of the, the bigger part of, of what I believe about that. Um, I think that's certainly true for many Jews involved in organizations. They're trying to figure out a way to kind of engage with their, uh, organization, with their, uh, religious [02:31:00] affiliation or whatever it may be, and to negotiate it towards a better place, if that makes sense. So once again, like I don't, like I don't, I don't, I don't think it's across...
Mo Husseini: Like I don't think it is a racist, um, a, a or, uh, or prejudicial thing to critique an organization, right? Like I think if a, a, a, a person in good faith, uh, wants to critique J Street, a person in good faith wants to critique, uh, NIF, in good faith wants to, uh, critique BDS, that's fair game, right? And, and, and f- and in fact, like I think it's absolutely okay to critique people once they have expressed those opinions, right? Like, like I'm not saying individuals are, uh, uh, immune from critique. What I'm saying is that individuals have the right to speak without being challenged before they speak.
Mo Husseini: That's all I'm getting at, right? [02:32:00] Like, it-- that's what I lived through, right? Like, I, I lived through the assumption that because my first name is Mohammed and my, uh, you know, my, my last name is Al-Hussaini, and I look like what I look like, and, uh, uh, I carry the passport that I carry, that, that, that I am in some way, uh, a terrorist, uh, someone who's trying to kill, you know, white people or Jews or hates American culture or whatever the hell it is set of assumptions were created after 9/11. Um, that's before I spoke.
Mo Husseini: That's before I said a fucking word. That's before I expressed a single opinion. You were just looking at me and making a set of decisions that were a function of an identity that I did not choose. I-- and, and to be clear, when I say did not choose, I'm not saying not proud of. plenty proud of it.
Mo Husseini: You're just approaching that identity in a way that [02:33:00] assumes a certain set of, of beliefs and political, uh, uh, um, uh, perspectives a-and approaches that, in my experience, aren't true. Like, I, y- y- I, I think, um I, I, I think it is, it is one thing to engage with reality. I think it is another thing to engage with identity, and that is the thing that I push back on.
Mo Husseini: Like, I don't think that, um, I don't think that Jewish people any more than Muslim people, any more than Black people, any more than, than gay people are responsible for making you feel okay giving them humanity and full respect. I think that should be given first. You can lose that, to be clear, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, and that's my point. Like, I can engage... Like, I can be a, a... It is possible to be a perfectly awful and toxic Muslim person, [02:34:00] right? Like, I'm not saying they don't exist. Uh, I'm saying that the assumption that they are that before engaging w-with them to understand that they are that is what I have a problem with, right?
Mo Husseini: The assumption that, that someone
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: understand. Yeah
Mo Husseini: you know, Smotrich, uh, style z- supremacy Zionist i-is where I draw the line. Like, I'm-- Like, you can tell me that that's what you believe. Great. Now I've got a fucking problem with you, but that problem is not a function of the fact of your, uh, Hebrew name or, or your passport Does that, does that distinction
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: you? You, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: it do- it does.
Mo Husseini: make sure like that it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, no, it, it does make sense, and I don't think we have a fundamental disagreement. I think, I think maybe just a few things I'm noticing is I think you might have more patience than me,
Mo Husseini: I'm just older, man
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: in general. And you, you think so? You think that's what it is?
Mo Husseini: uh, I, I [02:35:00] think, I do think that, that, that that's what it is on some level. I th- I think that there's a reason that, that, that peace tends to be negotiated by older people, that's not because, uh, older people are better. It, it's, it, it's in fact probably the opposite. Uh, older people are usually worse, um, because you have the idealism burned out of you and, and you begin to realize that, I think that, that, that time is finite that, um, it's, uh, i- it, it's important to kind of engage with things, uh, with a slightly more pragmatic and slightly less idealistic lens. And that's not to say that you give up on your beliefs. You just adjust yourself to the realities of the world a little bit differently. And, and I don't say that dismissively. Like I, I, I wish that that wasn't true on some level
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're pr- you're probably right, and I hate that,
Mo Husseini: You know, uh, there's a [02:36:00] really
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: what, it means, what, what that means is that you, like, maybe aren't as... Like, j- justice is not as complete as it could be
Mo Husseini: I think that that's always true throughout the world and, and not just on this issue. I, I think that, um, I, I think that people compromise all the time in order to move forward and, and sometimes those compromises are good, and sometimes those compromises are fucking terrible. Um, I, I think the United States is a great example of a fucking terrible compromise.
Mo Husseini: Um, I think, um, I think after the Civil War This nation made a decision gloss over, um, the horrors of, uh, enslavement, [02:37:00] um, and, uh, rehabilitate the South um, political reasons that had nothing to do with morals or ethics. And, uh, we're paying that price today. I think that, that, that, that in a lot of ways, what we are dealing with in the United States is a, is a shitty compromise about political unity over justice, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and I, um, I tend to prefer compromises that center justice because I think that justice is the longer term, uh, stable, uh, lighthouse to guide yourself by. I think that, for all its failures, and there are many failures that South Africans will tell you about, uh, you know, the peace and, uh, peace and reconciliation, uh, approach that was taken in South Africa was, um, was good. You [02:38:00] know, I think it was a, it, it was a solution that looked at pragmatic political realities on the ground and what could and could not be done and centered justice for victims, right? Acknowledgement and confession punishment. And, and many people did not like that and still don't like that and, and still feel that, uh, you know, some folks got away scot-free and never paid for their sins.
Mo Husseini: But I think in the long term, that's the kind of, compromise that makes sense. think the compromise that America made, uh, after the Civil War, especially rolling back reconstruction and, and all of those things is, is a sin we are still living with and, and still paying the price of
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, I think we should, we should, um, start to wrap up, and this has been so lovely. But o- one, one pa- one last question if we could just... And, and I apologize 'cause we didn't, we [02:39:00] didn't discuss your movie,
Mo Husseini: we don't have to discuss the movie.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: which I,
Mo Husseini: it's a year and a half old
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But, but, but, well, I'll just, I'll just say, you know, uh, but, like, in the spirit of everything we're talking about, what is the path forward?
Mo Husseini: Look, The Path Forward was really, uh, uh, it was a movie made in the moment, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: N- oh, no, no, actually, I mean, sorry. I mean that in a more existential,
Mo Husseini: Yeah, yeah. What
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: what it, like not...
Mo Husseini: look, I, I, I think the, the grand tragedy of, of the conversation between, um, Israelis and Palestinians is, um There's almost a, uh, Pavlovian response And that, uh, Pavlovian response is [02:40:00] negation, right? And, and when I talk about the fact that I can't even type the sentence, "I am Palestinian," without immediately getting, you know, uh, comments or questions or, "Yeah, well, that didn't exist," or, "Yasser Arafat invented that in 1967 with the KGB," or whatever.
Mo Husseini: Like, like, that is, That is not an unusual reaction, right? Like, I wish I could say it was. Like, it has certainly become less of an unusual reaction over the past, uh, uh, three or four years. But, um, it has not, uh, historically in my life, uh, w- with the exception of, uh, the recent past, been an unusual reaction. I think that that-- w- what that does is it, it, it in Palestinians similar responses. And, and so, um, you know, when, [02:41:00] um When Jewish people talk about a spiritual connection to the land, there's, uh, there's an, an equivalent kind of pro-Palestinian response that is like, well, you know, the... I mean, I, I, I, um, that, that attempts to negate, uh, Jewish connection or Jewish feelings or a sense of Jewish spirituality or whatever.
Mo Husseini: And, and to go back to a question that you asked me all the way at the beginning of this conversation, um, that's about kind of defining another person's identity for them. Like, I think that, that it's created kind of a toxic, uh, cycle between the people where, um, people feel like the need to make their point is, um, is built on a foundation of negating [02:42:00] the other And, um, engaging in that way a sure recipe for not getting anything done, for never moving.
Mo Husseini: If, if we start from you're not real, which at its essence is, is what people say to each other, um, we're never gonna move forward. And so when you ask me what the path forward is, it's-- to me, it's an acknowledgement. And, and I think that, that, that there's acknowledgements that have to happen that a-about, the, um We may not agree, but we need to at least see each other, right?
Mo Husseini: Like I, I, I don't have to, I don't have to agree with your definition of Zionism, right? I, I don't have [02:43:00] to with, uh, or you don't have to agree with my definition of Palestinian national identity or, or whether that exists or doesn't exist or whatever. All you have to agree with is that it exists for me Right? And, uh, because to me, moving forward is about ceasing the process of attempting to negate each other and figuring out how we can live together. by live together, I mean as equals. I mean as people equally privileged on the land. I, I, I mean as people who are, uh, um, equally protected under the law without distinction based on, uh, anything else. the structures of that, like I don't give a shit what that looks like. It doesn't, it doesn't matter to me if those things are true. Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: what [02:44:00] Like how The, the, the question that, that I struggle with, and, and, and I don't have the answer to this, Ezra, like just to be abundantly clear, like I, I, I don't have the answers to a lot of things. I just have, uh, opinions. H-how do we get to a place where we live boring lives? That, that's it, right? Like, the, the, the, the vast majority of people live boring lives. And, and I say that not as a judgment, right? Like, that's a good thing,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. I get it. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: it's like me as a, uh, uh, as a person that does not like the current American regime is like, you know, joking with my friends of like, "Dude, I would love to just wake up and not check the fucking news," because I know the president is boring and he's, you [02:45:00] know,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: great,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: some new economic
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: Like, whatever, I don't care, right? Like, that's what I mean. Like, how do we get to a place of boredom between Israelis and Palestinians? And, and, and my, um, my fundamental position is that we will never get to a place of boredom between Israelis and Palestinians until Israelis and Palestinians figure out how to live next to each other as equals, not as, not as
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: state and vassal state, not as we're in charge and you do what we tell you on, on, on either side, where, where people feel like they are respected and human and whole on the land. And, um, I don't know how we get there by starting from a place of negation I do know how we get there by starting from a place of like, um, [02:46:00] I guess the politest way to put it is like let's agree to disagree. Like y-y-you continue to have your Zionist perspective, and I'll continue to have my Palestinian, you know, nationalist perspective.
Mo Husseini: But as long as we agree that those things are not controlling beliefs, then we can move forward, right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: Does that answer your question?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It, it does answer my question. I, I, I, I share your vision, I think to a large extent. I think, uh, I, I think there's still some tension for me in the way you're framing it, which I don't think we need to, uh, resolve. I don't think we're going to or need to resolve in the rest of this conversation. But I, you know, I would love to stay in to touch and have more conversations with you 'cause I really enjoy it.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Um, but I'll just name, I'll just name the tension 'cause, 'cause I think it's a legitimate tension. I, I think it's, it's, it's a tension that I [02:47:00] experience and I, I'm still navigating in my own conversations with people. 'Cause I agree with you that starting from negation will be ultimately ineffective.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, where some tension creeps in is how to negate-- how to not automatically negate someone or negate their identity or their, how they think about themselves or how they define certain terms in their lives without Giving credence to narratives that are not fully historically legitimate or weighting things in ways that add more weight than perhaps most, you know, a, a, a lot of people might feel like is, [02:48:00] is necessary.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, so I feel like that is the tension. I- does that make sense?
Mo Husseini: I guess I'll put it this way. Like I It's important to me to understand whether the belief is controlling or just a belief
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What do you mean by controlling?
Mo Husseini: So I think everybody is racist Right. And, and what I mean by that i- is very specific, once again, I'm being a writer guy and, and, and like super nuanced, is, uh, I, I think we're all afraid of people that are different from us Right. But [02:49:00] That's a, uh, for lack of a better description, that's a, that's a, an evolutionary survival thing, right? Like, uh, uh, animals that are wary survive longer, right? Like, like, like, you know, like, like brave animals
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: right? Like, you know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: um, uh, there's a great, um, there's a great example of this of, uh, uh, uh, that, that my mentor once pointed out to me.
Mo Husseini: Like I, I, I do a lot of work in the kind of design of experiences, and he goes like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you a test. Um, go to a sports bar and don't look at the screens." Because you can't do it. And the reason you can't do it is not that you're dumb or you're really into sports or whatever. Um, we [02:50:00] have evolved as, as humans to notice difference and to notice motion. So when you're in a static field where something is moving off in the corner, i.e., the TV screen, your eye will be drawn to it, right? Like, you are drawn to difference. It's the reason camouflage works, right? Like, like when things blend in, we don't notice them. When things stick out, stick out, we do notice them. there's a lot of these things that are just innate. They're, they're not a function of anything except a, a, a, an evolutionary, uh, um, thing that has been kind of bred into us by just surviving To me, the difference is not whether you see difference, right? Like, it, it, it's why I'm so offended when people say, "Well, I don't see color." Of course you fucking see color. Like, don't be ridiculous. Like, of
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: you see color.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: The question isn't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: color, it's what you do with that perception Right? [02:51:00] So to me, that, that's what I mean by is it a belief or is it a controlling belief, right? So if you come to me and, and you say like, "Hey, uh, uh Uh, I believe Muslims are the greatest people ever, and blah. Like, you know, you, you, you, you, you spout some version of a, a religious sho- uh, chauvinism that centers Islam and, uh, Islam as the, the, the one true path and all this other stuff, and, and you lay that all out, and I go, "Great." My next question is, is mentally, not what I'm asking you, right? Is, is to understand whether that belief of yours is a belief or a controlling belief. Do you then go to the next step, which is to say, "And I... And therefore I..." As opposed to that but, and you know, uh, when we were talking earlier. The pivot at the end of that statement, um, is it, "And therefore I choose to live my [02:52:00] life a certain way," or is it, "And therefore I believe that I have the right to tell everybody how to live their lives?" Right? Then it becomes a controlling belief as opposed to a, a just a belief. Um, and, and that's where like, to me, uh, don't need to agree. Like, if, if this is your definition of Zionism for you, fantastic. Like, I- it doesn't affect my life one way or another. What affects my life is the controlling aspect of that.
Mo Husseini: What do you think that that means beyond that? Does your vision of Zionism that you should be privileged over others on the land? And like, yeah, we fucking fundamentally disagree. Like, we're not going to, uh, we're not going to agree to disagree on this one, right? Like, like you are now, um, you are now moving from the idea of, uh, well, Islam is the one true faith and is the right [02:53:00] faith for me, to the idea of like Islam is the one true faith, and anyone who doesn't believe this is subhuman and, and should be killed or whatever.
Mo Husseini: I, I don't see a difference in, in terms of any kind of supremacy that's expressed. Um, and that's, that's what I mean about, uh- Acknowledging, right? Like, I think if people have, uh, philosophical or political or religious, uh, perspectives that differ from mine, we're fine. Like I-- we don't have a problem. We don't have a problem until you make your position my problem, right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: Um, it's that, uh, i-it's that statement, you know, uh, uh, you're free to swing... Yeah, your right to, uh, your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose, right? Like, do whatever the fuck you want, but the second it starts to affect me, we've got a problem. And that's where, you know, that's where I have a problem with [02:54:00] conversations about a-an, an, uh, a, a Jewish connection to the land, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, okay, great. Like I, I don't have a problem with you having a connection to the land. I have a problem with is you saying that your connection to the land supersedes and negates my connection to the land. When you tell me that, that, that, that your connection to the land is more important than the fact that, you know, I, I can go to Jerusalem and, and walk the line of my, uh, ancestors' graves, you know, back through the centuries i-in Jerusalem.
Mo Husseini: Like it's not a, a... And that-that's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: That's like, that's like a real thing that, that, that, that, that I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: And for you to tell me that your connection to the land somehow says that, oh, we don't belong here, [02:55:00] that this land that has, held the bodies of my ancestors for centuries, for millennia is, is, is some-- fake, then now we've got a problem. And I think that that's what I mean by the difference between a belief and a controlling belief. Does that make sense?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It does make sense. And just I'm, I'm, I'm realizing just in case I wasn't clear, because I, I, I, I think it's, it's so clear in my mind that I, I'm just, for you or for anyone listening, when I talk about unresolved tension, I'm, I'm only thinking of it in the context of Jewish claim. I'm actually not at all questioning the Palestinian legitimacy or connection to the land in any way in e- either, in...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, so I, I'm, I'm really just thinking of it in the context of, like, [02:56:00] the most generous interpretation of what someone might say progressive Zionism, which I still
Mo Husseini: Sure
Mo Husseini: Yeah, yeah.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: have unresolved tension, which I... So I, I just wanna make that clear, like I'm, I'm not at all coming at it from
Mo Husseini: I think it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the, the, the critique that you are more familiar with of, of somebody cl- um, questioning your Palestinian legitimacy
Mo Husseini: but this is my point. Like, I think that... Look, I think it's a specious...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and I have to pick, I have to go to pick up my son in two minutes, I should, I should say.
Mo Husseini: I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: a, bit of a specious argument when, when we engage in, uh, uh, in conversations particularly about connection to,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What's, what's specious?
Mo Husseini: stupid, right? Like, like i-i-it, it's not a real argument.
Mo Husseini: It's kind of like you're making an argument to make an argument. Like, look, none of us are indigenous Like not, Like, uh, uh, uh, but, but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but there's people that,
Mo Husseini: let me
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: eh...
Mo Husseini: statement. right? like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, okay, okay,
Mo Husseini: it, it all depends on where you drop the pin, [02:57:00] right? Like if you, if you drop the pin, uh, uh, 300,000 years ago, we're hominids in the Greater Rift Valley, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and that's the only fucking place we exist, right? And, and then if you drop the pin in the, uh, you know, in the, uh, 20,000 years ago, uh, y- Neanderthals exist and what... Like it, it, it starts to get really stupid. And, and so my position on it is you have a connection to the land if you claim to have a connection to the land, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and, and I mean that in the spirit... Like the, let me finish.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But,
Mo Husseini: I mean that in a s- it,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: okay, okay.
Mo Husseini: that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry,
Mo Husseini: sense, and I also mean that in the sense that it doesn't fucking mean anything. And I don't mean that in like to, to, once again, like to carry on with my like nerdy word guy thing.
Mo Husseini: When I say it doesn't mean anything, I mean it's not dispositive. Like, like you claiming that you have a connection to a land that someone else has lived on for 2,000 years is like all good and well. You wanna come and live here too? Great. [02:58:00] Come and live here. But don't come and live here and kick me out of my home
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. And, and I guess what I was just gonna say is I do think there is a difference between Mohammed El-Kurd's family
Mo Husseini: percent.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the Brooklyn Jewish settlers that moved into house,
Mo Husseini: A thousand
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: of their hou- home and stayed there. Yeah. Um, we should really wrap this up,
Mo Husseini: Go pick up your son. If you wanna do
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 'cause yeah, but,
Mo Husseini: let, uh, let me know anytime. It's, it's been a fucking
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: to you, Ezra. Like, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It's, been so great, and I, yeah,
Mo Husseini: I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I've, so enjoyed,
Mo Husseini: you. Like, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, no, no, no. I, I think you're awesome. Um, I would love to continue. I, I really enjoyed speaking with you, and I look forward to doing it more, um, you know, offline or whatever.
Mo Husseini: I I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: like
Mo Husseini: would
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: so glad to have met you and connected with you.
Mo Husseini: want. Just, just like say the word.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Great
Mo Husseini: let me know when you're gonna post this, and I'll push it as [02:59:00] much as I can
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Thank you, Mo. Um,
Mo Husseini: I need to do
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I'm gonna stop re- so let me check. Let me just see. I'm gonna stop recording. It usually
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Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [00:00:00] Um, so first of all, how are you today?
Mo Husseini: Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You-
Mo Husseini: know, uh, uh I've been, uh, um, struggling with, uh, uh, that, that, that, essay. Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The one you just sent me?
Mo Husseini: the, the one that I, sent you, uh, before, the super ridiculously l-long
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I noticed, I think you, did you take it down? I tried to access it again. Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, part of why I took it down actually, I mean, and, and that, that's what the piece that I just posted is about, is, uh, I'm tired of, of, of kind of like, uh, asking permission to, to, to narrate, to use, uh, um, Said's line. And, um, I think that, um, [00:01:00] you know, I, I worked on that essay and, uh, you know, it started to climb towards like 24,000 words, which is, you know, I mean, that, that's quarter of a book. And, um, that was just me just trying to kind of lay out where I stand on things.
Mo Husseini: And I realized that, that, that like, um, I began to question kind of like why I was doing it, i- if that makes sense. And I realized that I wasn't doing it to make me feel better. I, I was doing it to make other people feel better and, and that, uh, um Yeah
Mo Husseini: like the, it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What do you mean by that? Who, who are you, who are you making feel better?
Mo Husseini: I d-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Who is it
Mo Husseini: the wrong construct, but like, like, uh, uh, I was doing it to correct people's misconceptions of me, and, and I realized that that like I don't-- Like fundamentally, like if you don't give [00:02:00] a crap enough to engage with me to understand what I'm saying, then, then I don't know that I owe you a, uh a mini book, if that makes sense, that, that, that, that, that, um, that explains all of that, I guess.
Mo Husseini: I don't know. Uh, sorry, like this is super uninteresting to, to other people. Um, uh, but yeah, so, so that's, that's, that's what that piece that I just posted about, frankly, i-is about, is, is, is just about feeling tired about performing from the margins, which I feel like, um in many ways is, um, kind of the problem. Um, and, and what I mean by that is uh I think there's, uh, I think that kind of the, the mainstream [00:03:00] discourse has for decades insisted that, uh, Jewish pain and Jewish trauma the central text, right? Like, like, uh, um, that, uh, to be Talmudic about it
Mo Husseini: like the piece in the middle i- Jewish pain and Jewish trauma and Jewish loss and, and Jewish connection to the land and, and all of these things. um- Palestinian pain, Palestinian trauma, Palestinian connection to the land, Palestinian loss ha- has always, uh, and, and only been allowed in the margins. It's only been allowed as an asterisk to, um, to Jewish pain, to Jewish trauma. um That I think is, is, is, is very much what Said [00:04:00] was talking about, this idea that, that we have to ask for permission to be allowed onto the page. uh, you know, that, that, that even the act of us telling our own stories is, is gatekept from us. And, um, I think in a weird way, um, part of the dissonance for, uh, for, for some folks is, is realizing that their story is not central anymore, and that, uh That, that, that,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You're talking about for
Mo Husseini: yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: people? Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, you know, that, that, that, that, that... And, and, and to say that the story isn't central doesn't mean that the story isn't important. it's saying is that the story also must share space, right? And, and, and I think that, [00:05:00] um, I think that that is a really unnatural position for some folks who've never had to, to, to, to have that, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: um, and, I say that very carefully. Like, like this is not a statement that is designed to, um, minimize, uh, uh, Jewish pain or Jewish trauma or Jewish connection to the land, but rather to say that, yes, it's important, but it's also-- it's just as important as this other thing, right? Uh, and, and I think that that is where, um... I mean, that's the thrust of the piece that I just posted is, is, is really focusing on that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, and I would like to, I'd like to return to
Mo Husseini: Sorry.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: some things that you just said. No, no, this, that was a, this was a great cold open, I mean. Um, uh, [00:06:00] but I, I wanna, like, weave into that a little later 'cause I, I do have some thoughts on, on that. But, but, um, you just sent me this piece. Uh, I just started reading the first two paragraphs, so I don't know.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I was like, "Oh, I wish I'd, you'd sent me this
Mo Husseini: That's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: to at least have..." You know, I know you just...
Mo Husseini: what I was...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, you just, you just posted it. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: free-- If
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But,
Mo Husseini: take a beat, like I'm happy to drop
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but
Mo Husseini: restart in five or 10 or whatever, if that works for you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, if you think, actually maybe if you think it would be worth me, if you... Yeah, yeah, maybe. We don't even have to stop recording actually. I'll just, um, if you, I'll just like walk away or hit mute or,
Mo Husseini: You can hit pause and we can go from there
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, I'll, I'll keep recording just so I don't have to edit two pieces. It's easier. Um, but, uh, maybe I'll just... Yeah, you wanna j- how long is the piece? Should we do five minutes, 10 minutes?
Mo Husseini: it's totally fine. You, you should be able to [00:07:00] get through it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: more than 10
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: All right. Let's, uh, yeah, you wanna come back at t-
Mo Husseini: stay
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 10:18?
Mo Husseini: you're gonna keep
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, you'll stay on?
Mo Husseini: gonna mute and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Okay, cool. I'll just, I'll just do that, and I'll just, uh, I'll, I'll turn off my... Yeah, I'll just, I'll just m-[00:08:00] [00:09:00] [00:10:00] [00:11:00] [00:12:00] [00:13:00] [00:14:00] [00:15:00] [00:16:00] [00:17:00] [00:18:00] [00:19:00] [00:20:00] [00:21:00] [00:22:00] [00:23:00] [00:24:00] [00:25:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Hey
Mo Husseini: There we go. Okay
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Um, sorry, I guess I'm a slower reader than you might
Mo Husseini: all good. I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: have thought
Mo Husseini: I-- It's probably more likely that I'm a faster reader, uh, uh, when I obviously am reading my own shit since I know what's about to happen.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure.
Mo Husseini: Sorry about
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, Um, fant-- no, fantastic piece. I'm glad I got to read that. There's-- I was-- I clipped a bunch of quotes too that I feel like might be useful to hear you elaborate on or just speak, speak about. Um, but oh man, so let's see[00:26:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What, what I, I, what I would love to do is hear you... You know, the, the piece, the piece starts out with you kind of, um, well, here's, here, here's a quote. Uh, "I am Palestinian without a stranger arriving to dispute it, to explain to me that the noun is an invention, that the identity is an unfounded rumor, that I'm a rounding error holding a flag."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, oh, and preceding that you say, "I cannot even write the smallest true sentence I own." Uh, and, and you are talking about in the context of being a boy and asking, somebody asking in a room where you're from, and you saying, "I'm Palestinian," and pe- and, like, teachers or other students looking at you as if you made a mistake.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, "What i- that place doesn't exist. What are you talking about?" Can you explore that [00:27:00] idea and w- with, with also maybe giving us a little, um, a little insight into your background and where you came from and
Mo Husseini: uh, let me start with the easy part, uh, with, uh, my, my background. Um, I'm Palestinian. I'm, uh, uh, I'm Palestinian through and through. Um, you know, both sides of my family are Palestinian. My, father was born in a Palestinian Jerusalem in 1944. my, uh, mother was born in a Palestinian Nablus, um, a couple of years later. and, you know, that's what I grew up with. I grew up in a, um, in a very, uh, proud-to-be-Palestinian family. Um, and, uh, I, I continue to be proud of being Palestinian. But I think that, um [00:28:00] At least for me, um, one of the earliest kind of moments of dissonance was realizing as a child that I didn't have a Palestinian passport. Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What, what country is this, were you in?
Mo Husseini: we were living in Kuwait, but we carried, uh, Jordanian passports because, um, essentially that was what was available to my parents. My, my, my father had grown up in, in Cairo, but also in Jordan, and had, uh, carried a Jordanian passport since, um since having a passport and, and the same with my mother.
Mo Husseini: And, um, as a kid, I knew I wasn't Kuwaiti. Like, we were living in Kuwait, but, but I knew I wasn't Kuwaiti in the sense [00:29:00] that, um, um, you know, Kuwaiti people sounded different, right? Like a Kuwaiti accent is j- uh, i- is a Khaliji accent, which is quite different than a, um, than a Shami accent, which is what most, uh, Palestinians or Syrians or, uh, uh, Jordanians would have. Um- And, know, you know, you know you don't belong in Kuwait. It's not your place in, in quotes. And so growing up, uh, you know, you ask where, where are we from? And you're, you're told, "You're Palestinians." And, uh, you know, then you see your passport and you realize that you don't have a Palestinian passport.
Mo Husseini: You actually have a Jordanian passport. And then why don't I have a Palestinian passport? You know, everybody else gets to have their passports. And, you know, that, that's kind of the, the beginning of the dissonance. You, you realize that this ve-very [00:30:00] simple thing, this very simple question like, "Where are you from?" Um, answering that is in and of itself loaded. And, um, it's loaded a lot less when you answer it in, i-in the context of being in an Arab country, um, because people understand what you mean when you say, "I'm Palestinian." They understand that, that, that, that there is a, disjoint between the identity and the, and the legal framework that supports the identity.
Mo Husseini: Like, people are, are used to that. And so you can say, "I'm Palestinian," without people going like, "Hmm, what, what, what does that mean?" Um, but then, you know, at the age of 10 or 11, you're, you're suddenly in a boarding school in, um, in a, you know, fairly, homogenous group of kids who, you know, when they talk about where they're [00:31:00] from, they're talking about various cities in the UK, right? uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: This is in London
Mo Husseini: uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: or in the UK
Mo Husseini: north, closer to Cambridge, um, uh, up in the countryside, uh, in East Anglia. And, um, you know, the-those... Saying I'm Palestinian in that context, um, is either people not knowing what that is, um, uh, denying that it exists as a thing, right? Telling, you know... Which was the, the, the teacher's response that I mentioned in that article. You know, like somebody essentially like, "Oh, that doesn't exist." Like we're, you know... and, and, and, and I distinctly remember him like not even waiting for me to correct. He just kind of moved on. Like it didn't matter. Like whatever. Um-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: He wasn't even curious, like
Mo Husseini: think, I think
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: he, like to
Mo Husseini: know, I mean, [00:32:00] to put it in context, this is the, the early '80s, right? And in the UK, th- this was the era of, like, the petrodollar and, um, I think we were all just lumped in, in that kind of generic, like, you know, um... I think every Arab, uh, kid of that era has some version of, like, "How many camels do your parents have?" You know, "How many, how many mothers do you have?" Like, those kinds of particularly in the UK, where I think that the impact of, um Arab wealth was felt more clearly than, than it was in the US. Um, there, there was a lot of, uh, kind of friction with, you know, rich Gulf Arabs showing up in the UK with a lot of money and a lot of privilege that, that were hugely resented by, by the British and, um, know, and, and the [00:33:00] resulting, I think, racism that came out of that. And, and we were just kind of lumped into that generic, uh, Arab construct.
Mo Husseini: We are just rich people from Arabia. um, it's hard in that context to be like, "Hey, by the way, we're the poor Arabs," right? Like, "We're the ones that don't have oil."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: and, and, and in the list of poor Arabs, like Palestinians are down at the bottom of that list. Like not only do we not have oil, like we don't even have a country.
Mo Husseini: We don't even have our, our own passports. And, um, for me, the, the object lesson was like you don't even have the ability to simply say, "I am Palestinian," without, uh, without a question. And, um, you know, the anecdote that, that opens that essay continues to exist. Um, like I literally, um I've literally had comments on [00:34:00] posts that I've made online or, uh, know, where, where I might say something fairly anodyne, like not even like super controversial. Like, "Hey, as a Palestinian, I think X, Y, or Z." And, um, have literally had within minutes, like people jump on to go, "Well, that's not a real thing.
Mo Husseini: Like there, there, there's no such thing as Palestinians. Like you're all just Arabs. You're all just..." You know, like, like you can't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: w- it was invented by Arafat in '67
Mo Husseini: you literally, you, you cannot even give me the grace to tell you how I identify myself without challenging that, right? Like, like, like, like um, it, it's, it's, it's a very interesting kind of thing, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and to be clear, like changing, you know? And, and I, and I think that that, that that's a, a big part of [00:35:00] what I'm addressing in that, um, article that's changing, and I think that that change is uncomfortable for a lot of people. you know? Um, I, I think that that, uh, reframe, uh, permission structure that is allowing Palestinians to kind of step up and "I am Palestinian," without the challenge being acceptable, without the negation being acceptable, um, that's a fairly new thing. Um, and, and, and I've lived the spectrum of it and, um, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's a, it's an interesting, uh, it's an interesting time and, and I mean that in, in both a positive and a negative sense. Like, like I think that it is a, um, you know, on the, on, on the one, um- [00:36:00] In the non-official part of the conversation about Israel-Palestine, it's probably one of the better times in, um, in Palestinian, uh, uh, history and advocacy, right? Like, th- there's more of an acceptance, uh, for Palestinians to speak. There's more of an acceptance of a Palestinian narrative. more of an acceptance of a right to speak without challenge. And, know, ironically, it's, it, it's, it's also one of the worst times in history in terms of the destruction that has been just absolutely and, and ruthlessly wrought on, uh, the Palestinian people, both in Gaza and, and in the West Bank and, and within Israel proper, right? Like, like, the, the, the-- they are, um, they are distinctions of grade and not [00:37:00] distinctions of, uh, reality.
Mo Husseini: Like, yeah, your life in the West Bank is slightly better than it is in Gaza, but, like, that ain't saying much, like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: That's not at all, no
Mo Husseini: you're talking about toothpicks that are stacked above each other, if that makes sense. And, um, um, you know, so, so th- there's a weird kind of tension and irony of realizing that, uh, you know, on a, um- On a general political discourse level, thing, things are better than they have been. While in a material sense and in the sense of of how the, the Israeli government is acting and, uh, behaving with regards to Palestinians, I-i in many ways it's never been worse. Um, you know, with the possible exception of the stuff that was happening immediately, uh, uh, [00:38:00] you know, immediately around the, the Nakba, right?
Mo Husseini: Like the, and, and, and, you know, the scale of the destruction is, uh, uh, completely different in, in Gaza, et cetera.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I would love for you to, uh, share some about the s- some, some stuff about the work you've done in, um, either as a filmmaker or just as a, I don't know the best way to say it, activist organizer. Like, you've been involved in, like, dialogue with, you know. Like, what, what are some of the work you've done around Palestine and, and Israel and
Mo Husseini: I, mean, I mean, I, I think, I think for me it's, um It's interesting, like I come out of film a bit like, you know, with the, um, w- with of, uh, the work on "The Path Forward" that I did with, uh, Julie [00:39:00] very early on, uh, i-i-in the context of, uh, um, utter destruction that's been wrought on Gaza. Uh, um, I, I haven't really done a lot of film work, uh, Israel-Palestine.
Mo Husseini: Uh, most of my work has been, um, you know, writing and speaking with people and engaging in conversations. I, I get variously described as an activist every now and then. Um, I'm, I'm uncomfortable with the word, and I'm uncomfortable with the word not because I, I have a problem with activists. Uh, I'm uncomfortable with the word because I, I don't feel like I've earned that honor, if that makes sense. A- and, and I, and I, and I say
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure. Yeah
Mo Husseini: w- w- I, I say that w- with all honor appended to the [00:40:00] word, if that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: I I think activists
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, absolutely
Mo Husseini: do something very, um, very brave and, um, they are different creatures than me, if that makes sense. Like I, I'm, uh, I'm loud, but, but I'm an introvert. Uh, you know, like, like I don't like being in, in crowds. I'm, I'm not, uh, I'm, I'm not built for demonstrations. Uh, I, I'm not that guy. Um, but by the same token, I don't look at demonstrations or look at people who engage in those and go like, you know, "Fucking idiots," or whatever. Like, they are doing, uh, brave and necessary and critical work. I, I think that, um I think, uh, that the liberation movement, and, and that is really how I think about it.
Mo Husseini: And, and to be clear that I think that, I think that it is a liberation movement for both Arabs and Jews. [00:41:00] Because I think that, that the Jews, uh, uh, that Jews as well need to be liberated from this, uh, uh, fr-fr-from, from what exists, uh, now and the way that, uh, uh, Israel is, um, kind of set up and behaving. I think that it's a, uh You know, frankly, I think it's hard to divorce the idea of liberation, um, from anybody, right? Like, like I think that, that, that the Palestinian struggle is profoundly intertwined with, um, w-with the Black, uh, uh, experience, not just in the United States, but, but globally, um, w-with the issues of, uh, you know, the Southern Hemisphere, the Global South, um, with, with issues of, uh, trans rights, uh, with issues of, you know, LGBTQA, uh, QIA rights.
Mo Husseini: Uh, you know, I, I think nobody is free until everybody is free. And I, and [00:42:00] I think that, you know, and I, and I know that that sounds glib, but I also think it is profoundly true. Like I, I, I do not know how you can call yourself a, an ethical and moral person and, uh, claim freedom when, when anybody is being oppressed.
Mo Husseini: And, and, and that I think is the part where, um I, I think that that's the part that is really hard for, uh, for populations that have been centered historically, right? Like I, I think that, And, and, and, and to be clear, this is not a, a comment about, uh, um, Jewish folks, right? Like I think, I think white people have a problem with this when, you know, when, uh, when your response to the phrase Lives Matter is, "Well, actually all lives matter," right?
Mo Husseini: Like you don't fucking get it, Like that is literally-- Like you are showing with that [00:43:00] statement that you don't fucking get it, right? Because the statement, uh, the statement Black Lives Matter is not saying that all lives don't matter. It's saying that for too long you have ignored the fact that Blacks li- that, that Black lives matter, and therefore we must insist on the centrality of that statement, and you can't dilute it by trying to turn it into a, you know, kind of a, a, a, a, an anodyne like piece of pablum about, "But yeah, actually all lives matter."
Mo Husseini: It's like, well, no, now you're ignoring the problem again, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: that, um, I think that happens a-any time a centered, uh, uh, a centered majority is forced to kind of engage with, uh, uh, uh, w-with the oppressed, right? Like, and I think that, um, you know, once again, like, uh, when you ask me about what I do, like I work with [00:44:00] who is willing to understand that, who is willing to understand that, um There's no freedom in supremacy for anybody. no freedom in oppression for anybody. And that's, you know, uh, for, for me to say that Palestinian lives matter and you jumping in with, you know, the, the eq- the, the equivalent of all lives matter, um, i- once again, like, attempts to equalize a situation that is not equal, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, yes, absolutely Jewish lives matter, but, but Jewish lives are not threatened in the same way that Palestinian... And, and that's not to say that they aren't threatened, it's to say that they aren't threatened in the same way
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I feel like what I see in your writing, um, is, is, is what consistently shows up for me [00:45:00] is you navigating this tension, um, of wanting to... You know, you, you say things like, uh, "Trauma is symmetrical," or, "Pain is symmetrical, but power is not." Stuff like that. And I, I... "Grief is symmetrical, power is not," is, is your, your words.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I- but I, I feel like you I almost like, you know, in the piece I read and, and just now and in the piece I read earlier, the longer one, um, I almost feel like, um, you, you bring it up a lot. I feel like in real time almost I, I can hear you, like, going back and forth of, like, saying like, "Yes, I see your pain," speaking to J- the Jewish community, "And you need to see ours."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And but the- but also, like, being, being careful of saying [00:46:00] like-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: W- we are not coming from it from, from equal sides of the coin. Like, uh, you know, you had another, what I thought was such a brilliant line, um Let me find it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Maybe I didn't write it down. Um, oh, yeah. Even the word conflict draped over a man strapped to a chair stops describing anything and becomes a curtain. And printing both names in the same size type on the scoreboard is the oldest trick of the people who own the press. Um
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I, I'd like to, to explore more this tension that you hold, and I'll, I'll [00:47:00] do it by posing a question, which is I was having a conversation with somebody yesterday that I've been engaging with who... Somebody who would describe themselves as progressive Zionist. And it was-- I'd say this last exchange was, was frustrating for me for, for several different reasons.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Some of them I, I totally will put on the way that I communicated. But he was trying to explain the importance to me of why you need to-- why it's not okay to be anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian, why you need to be pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian, and I just don't fully accept that premise, and particularly in the way that I think he might explain it.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And anyway, not to-- I know you don't know the context, you don't know the person, but when you hear somebody say something like that, what is your immediate reaction?
Mo Husseini: my, my, my, my [00:48:00] immediate reaction is like, look, I've said things that are similar. But, but, but, but once again, and I think that this is the problem, this is the problem that I have, Ezra, which is that I'm a writer, right? Like, and, and what I mean by that as a problem is that, the, the, that I spend, um, I spend literal hours obsessed about word choices, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and, and so, um, you know, to me they're, the, like a w- a word means a certain set of things and, and when I use that word, I use it to mean a certain set of things. And you, you and I have had discussions kind of in the lead up, up to this thing of like, you know, why I have troubles with using, uh, uh, certain words or, or not other words, not just because of what they mean, but also because of the, um, the, because of the reactions that they, that they provoke in other people.
Mo Husseini: And so as a writer, you're constantly making that decision, right? Like you're constantly engaged [00:49:00] in a, uh, for, for lack of a better description, a cost-benefit analysis of, of the words that you choose and the words that you deploy. And I've said things along the lines of like, look, I think it is absolutely necessary to be pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian at the same time.
Mo Husseini: But what I mean by that is something very specific. And what I mean by that is, look, I am no fan of Hamas, right? Like as, as an organization and, and as a set of decisions that they, that they have made in terms of governance, very specifically in terms of how they treat the Palestinian people. And the same is true, uh, as well about my feelings about the PA.
Mo Husseini: But, but those feelings about Hamas, about the PA, about any of the various, uh, liberation organizations do not change my pro-Palestinian-ness. and so when I say like you can be pro-Palestinian, my focus there when you are, or when, when you are [00:50:00] using that term, when I am using that term, um, is, uh, is the people of Palestine The, the, the people, the people who are being killed and who are paying the price. and, and, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: S- yeah, so
Mo Husseini: same thing, I would say the same thing in terms of like, look, you want to be, uh, pro-Israel. That's fine. Be pro-Israeli, right? But, but, but be very clear that the Israeli government, as it exists, as it has, as it has existed for decades, an oppressive construct that is, uh, uh, that, that is actively trying eliminate a Palestinian presence on the land and engaging in, a- in what are by, by any neutral measure are war crimes, whether that's collective punishment, whether that is, uh, you know, blockade, whether that is the leveraging of hunger as a [00:51:00] tool, uh, uh, uh, of warfare, whether that's the creation of a, um, that's the creation of a, uh, uh, frankly discriminatory and oppressive legal system that treats Palestinians as less than, and, and in fact creates categories of Palestinians.
Mo Husseini: Oh, you're not as good as a '48 Palestinian. You're a, you know, e- e- et cetera. like I, I'm sorry, but like in that context, like yeah, I'm not pro-Israeli. Like I, I, I refuse to engage with that construct as being anything, uh, uh, that needs, uh, that needs to, uh, continue to, to kind of be supported, right? Like that, that's an oppressive contra- construct, sorry
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. I, and, and I guess that's, that's where my, I push back against that language, not necessarily in the way you use it, but just I'm still trying to [00:52:00] understand what anyone means when they say pro-Israeli, because to me, even in the most generous term, the most generous benefit of the doubt definition, if somebody, like for instance, the man I was speaking with yesterday, I know he's anti-occupation.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I know he has some vision of some binational or one state or confederate state. It's a little blurry to me what, you know, but that's besides the point. But, but I, I think where, I think, I think if I were to try to isolate the tension, I feel like he still feels like be- being Israeli entails Jews have some sort of- Exclusive rights or, or, or like s- at, at least e- even at the most, even if there's equal rights with Palestinians, like some sort of majority, uh, population.
Mo Husseini: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: and to me that is, that is [00:53:00] unacceptable. Like to me that, that still ends up kind of collapsing into a definition around Zionism that is inherently racist, because in order to maintain a Jewish majority state, you have to enact racialized policies that would limit immigration or, uh, f- from the people that live there, Palestinians, or, or limit birth, birth rates or something.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: You know, so, uh, so it's just very hard for me to accept, like you should be pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian because I, I can't find a definition of Israel or even Israeli that doesn't have inequality built into it.
Mo Husseini: think,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But may- maybe people would push back on me
Mo Husseini: the, uh, ironic, uh, for, for the ironic position of being a Palestinian de- defending, uh, a, a Israeli identity. Um, but I think that there's a distinction to be made about the idea of, of, of [00:54:00] specifically Israeli identity, and, and let me offer it to you this way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: in, in the, uh, in the '70s and '80s, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, we started this with me talking about my sense of identity, uh, as a child growing up and feeling the dissonance between, uh, the feeling of being Palestinian, uh, um, when put up and held up against the feeling of not having a passport that said Palestinian, right? And, and I think that it's important to recognize and understand that, that Israelis as well exist as a sense of a national, uh, uh, personal sense of identity, if that makes sense. um, they feel about themselves that they are not just, uh, uh, Jews, but that they are Jews and Israelis, right? Like, I think that, uh, uh, um- The, it is possible to have a national identity that is not necessarily [00:55:00] reflected by the country or by the decisions of the country or by the structure of the country or, uh, by the politics of the country.
Mo Husseini: I mean, I think that, um, we, all of us in the US, uh, for the next two, uh, years, a significant, uh, number of us do not feel, uh, represented by the country we live in, or by the politics of the government that we live in or by the perspectives on the world of the government that we live in. It doesn't make us any less American. And I think that that's where I would land that distinction, which is I think it is possible to be supportive of Israeli identity and Israeli nationality and an Israeli sense of being as an Israeli in the world without necessarily, uh, conflating that, um, with the positions of the state, right? Like I, uh, I know and have worked with [00:56:00] many Israelis who are far to the left of me, who consider themselves profoundly Israeli in their sense of, uh, connection to that as an identity that, that I would say, um, mirrors my connection, right?
Mo Husseini: Like to being Palestinian regardless of passport or identity. yet they are, um, profoundly antagonistic to what the state is doing in their name. And, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Would they, would they s describe themselves as anti-Zionist Israeli?
Mo Husseini: I would, uh, o- o- one thing that I've heard m- more and more of these days from people wanting to, um, uh, defang the term is post-Zionist
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, I hear that too, or non-Zionist.
Mo Husseini: I think that, I think that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I
Mo Husseini: they would describe themselves. I would say like, [00:57:00] look,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: like a few of them would actually describe themselves as anti-Zionist. And, and, and one that I can think
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: would describe themselves as a virulent a-anti-Zionist, um, as an Israeli, which I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: like, you know, i-i-infinitely entertaining.
Mo Husseini: But I would say that most of them would describe themselves as post-Zionist. One of the things that I've heard repeatedly from Israeli people is like, "Look, the, the, the, the, the case for Zionism ended in 1948," that everything since then is, is, is a national identity and, and problems with the state that have nothing to do with, uh, uh, the idea of Zionism per se, as far as they're concerned
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But, but, but even, even that statement I feel like legitimizes the idea of Zionism, uh, in 1948, which I would object to. And, and I d- I do wanna point out, like, uh, the irony here of, um, you know, as you alluded to of, like, the, myself [00:58:00] as a, a, a Jewish and I guess virulent anti-Zionist trying to... And then you as, like, a Palestinian trying to def- defend these more moderate Israeli or Zionist positions.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But I know that, I know that politically I, I... Because we've spoken so and I've... I, I don't think there's daylight between us politically, but I, I admire the, the care and the thoughtfulness of which you choose your language, and I think we actually, I, I think we actually are coming at it from different angles.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and I think it actually is our positionality of our identities that maybe allow it, where I think you tactically, and I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but, like, so correct me if I'm wrong. But I think you tactically kind of try, try to take a more cautionary approach without watering down the truth of, you know, like wanting to keep the door open for conversation with people that, you know, [00:59:00] not shut, not shut things down.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I think I actually, at least more recently in my life around this topic, um, I'm trying to take a deliberately more provocative approach, um, without shutting the door down completely, but basically being like, "No, no, no, this needs to be uncomfortable, and you need to experience cognitive dissonance." Um, so for instance, the, the...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: why I take issue with the idea of post-Zionist or non-Zionist is I think it is Potentially, or I, I, I think it is dangerous to divorce the term Zionism with the political ideology and, um, and history of asymmetrical power and settler colonialism and occupation that has [01:00:00] existed for the last 75 years under the term of Zionism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, I, I, I see it as, as similar, uh, similarly why it is not sufficient enough to just say you are not racist, um, or you are, uh, you know, while, but then, you know, having benefited from white supremacy. Like, I think Jews and Israelis that have benefited from this imbalance of power need to explicitly be anti-racist or anti-Zionist to go back against, uh, you know, fight against the systems of, um, vast power imbalance and inequality that have perpetuated.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So that's why I take issue because I think it softens the,
Mo Husseini: I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the term.
Mo Husseini: be clear
Mo Husseini: though, uh, and, and, and explain kind of where, where I'm coming from. And, and, and, and, and, and to go back to that essay that we started, uh, talking about, um, [01:01:00] I don't believe it's anybody's place to define anybody else's identity And, and that's, that, that's where, that, that's where I get hung up, right? So, so if I, if, if I come to you and, and to go back to that statement, if I make the statement, "I am Palestinian," and your first response is to jump in and explain to me why I'm not Palestinian, or why that term doesn't exist, or why that nationality has, has, has no reality, uh, if you will, or, um, uh, uh, or salience or whatever.
Mo Husseini: Like, whatever critique you wanna make of my statement, "I am Palestinian," um- I, I can think of, you know, uh, I can, I can think of a hundred ways that I could respond to that, a-and, and I can't think [01:02:00] of m-more zero of them that would be positive i-in terms of my response, right? Like, like I-- by the very fact of you engaging with negation, right? Like, I'm gonna shut down. And you're like, "You know what?
Mo Husseini: Go fuck yourself." You know? And, and you may have a,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: may have a super nuanced argument, a-and that super nuanced argument may not be a negation of Palestinians. It may be talking about nation-state construction in, in the Ottoman Near East and blah, blah, blah. Like, it, it may be a completely different conversation, but by the very fact of you engaging from a negate-negating perspective i-initially, I've already shut down.
Mo Husseini: I'm not fucking listening to you. You're-- you, you've already classified yourself as a knee-jerk idiot, uh, in my math. I am wary of ever doing that to other people. I feel that, uh, uh, that, uh, people get to define who they are, [01:03:00] and so if someone comes to me and approaches me and says, you know, "I'm a Zionist," I, example, that term, like I have a very hard time with that term, and I, I talk about it repeatedly in my writing, which is I don't know what that means. Like, I, I don't know what that means, right? Because I, I've seen people define Zionism, it-- and, uh, talk about their Zionism and before you get more than two or three sentences in, you're like, "Oh, like, this is fucking racial supremacy, like what you're talking about." Like then you've just
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: name on it.
Mo Husseini: Like, th-this is fundamentally no different than, um, uh, uh, talking about Übermensch or, you know, talking about, you know, the purity of the white race. Y-you're, you're just, you're, you're using a different costume to have a very similar conversation. But I've also heard people define their own, quote-unquote, "sense of [01:04:00] Zionism," um, in language that I have z-zero objection to, where, where, where, where-- And, and let, and let me finish. A-a-and zero objection to in terms of the mechanics of what they mean by it. They mean it in, in much the same way, um, that I mean I am Palestinian, right? Like, I don't say I am Palestinian to say you are not a Jew or you don't belong or anything like that, or you have no connection to the land. I say that entirely about a statement about me and the people that I feel connected to, right? Now-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can, can you just, uh, articulate what that, what that definition would be that you are okay with?
Mo Husseini: So y- look I think it is delusional for non-Jews to engage with Jews and have a conversation with Jews that says, um, "Don't worry [01:05:00] And, and, and, and, and what I mean by that, uh, uh, specifically is that it's important to recognize that, uh, that, that, that there has been a shit ton-- Like, trauma is not imagined Right?
Mo Husseini: The oppression of Jews, the oppression of Jews is not an imag-- and, and let, let me finish.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: historically,
Mo Husseini: let, me
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah,
Mo Husseini: 'cause I think it's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry.
Mo Husseini: it,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: the, the historical oppression of Jews is not imagined, right? Antisemitism has existed for millennia, and it has been very real, and it has had very, uh, uh, very meaningful consequences and, and, and, and it has meant a shit ton of pain and suffering for the Jewish people historically, okay? Like I, I, I, and, and, and I, and I think that a, um [01:06:00] I think that the centering of the Jewish narrative is largely a reflection of the truth of that statement, right? Like, like i-in the context of, um, and, and this is a very specific and European context and a European frame. In the context of Europe, one has been oppressed more than, than Jewish people have in the context of Europe. Okay? Um, that falls apart when you start talking about, uh, uh, you know, Belgium and the Congo and, and, and all, all kinds of other things and the, and the, and, and the enslavement of, of, of Black bodies, et cetera, et cetera. Like that, like n- it is certainly not the central trauma of, of human existence, right?
Mo Husseini: But it is an important one, and it's an important one not to belittle, Like, I think that that's, that's a critical part. I think in the context of that trauma and in [01:07:00] the context of that historical Jewish trauma, um, uh, uh, there is an interpretation of Zionism that is tender from, from, you know, fr-from my perspective, and that, that is, uh, you know, I, I-- The language that I used in, uh, the essay I posted this morning is like, you know, it's the, uh, uh, it's the craving for the bed that can't be taken away.
Mo Husseini: It's the craving for the, for the door that locks from the inside of the house, and it's the conviction that, that, that no people, uh, um, no people should, uh, uh, should sleep, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No people should have ever paid... The price that no people should have ever paid, that there must be one place on earth where Jewish children sleep without packing. I just, I happened to write that down too.
Mo Husseini: I think that that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: tender and, and, and, and t- to me, uh, mirrored, uh, uh, Zionism, right? Like, that's a Zionism that matches up with my sense of Palestinianism, for lack of a better description, right? Like, it's like, hey, I want a [01:08:00] place that, that's home for me, that-- a door that I can lock, a place that I can be safe and not have to worry about packing, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I think as a Palestinian in the diaspora, similar, you know, it's a similar feeling that I've had Jewish friends explain to me is like, "Am I safe here?" Right? Like, will, you know, like, uh, uh, uh, certainly when it, when I see it in the context of Trump and what Trump is doing to brown people throughout this country, like even as an American citizen, I sit here and go like, "Am I safe here? Could this turn tomorrow," right? And now they're talking about, oh, we're gonna denaturalize people, and we're gonna, you know, like blah, blah, blah. And, and, and so there, that's my point, right? Like there's, there's in that definition of Zionism that is not a definition of Zionism that is built on the backs of Palestinians, that is not built on the backs of, of, uh, uh, of supremacy, that is not built on the backs of taking away from me in order to provide for you. [01:09:00] I don't have a problem with that. Now you as, as, as Ezra may look at that and go like, "That's not Zionism. That's, that's a Jewish, you know, sen- you know, desire for safety or whatever, and, and that's not how I'm defining Zionism." And I'm, I'm perfectly happy to stipulate, uh, to that. But my point is, I can't go to someone who tells me that that is Zionism, that tells me that that is their definition of Zionism, and tell them that it's not Zionism any more than I accept when people come and tell me that, "Oh, well, that's not Palestinian, that's being from the Levant," which is a term I fucking hate. Uh, right? Like, "Oh, you're not Palestinian, you're Levantine," or, "You're from, you know, peninsular Arabia, and you're also colonizers." I'm like, "Don't tell me what I am. I, I will tell you what I am,"
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: right? And, and, and if I'm not sure, or sorry, if you're not sure about what I mean when I tell you what I am, feel free to ask me.
Mo Husseini: I'm happy to explain it to you.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But here,
Mo Husseini: [01:10:00] yes.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: here's, here's perhaps a difference, which is, uh, okay. Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, and yeah, but I... But the people that are saying that to, to me and, and I imagine to you to at least some extent, like they are not, um, you know, and I'm making generalizations, but like th- they are not talking about... Th- they are equating historical trauma with modern-day trauma
Mo Husseini: ya.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: a-and, and antisemitism, which I think to, to a large part, not to say antisemitism does not exist, not to say anti-Jewish hate and sentiment does not exist, it certainly does.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Uh, I think Zion- a lot of it exists because of the actions of Israel and the defense of those actions, and the... That's a whole other topic maybe w- [01:11:00] I don't wanna get into right now. But, um, but systematically in the, in the West, Jews are not an oppressed group, like in a, in a legally structure, like i-i-in, in a, in an economic way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, there are no structural... There's not structural racism against Jews like there is structural racism, uh, a-about many other groups. Jews have done very well, generally speaking, as a demographic in the West. Um, they are, you know, one of the most privileged. Also, when people are talking about Zionism as just kind of defanging it, as like, "Well, it just has to do with Jewish children being able to sleep without packing," what I often find, 9 times out of 10, is they are, they are obscuring the reality of settler colonialism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: They are just saying, "Well, it is, we had ancestral roots here, [01:12:00] so therefore we did have some right, and maybe it didn't all go down perfectly. But, you know, ultimately, maybe it could have gone another way, and it was just, uh, you know, and, and there, there, it, there were imperfect actors making imperfect decision on both sides."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I feel like, uh, you know, the people that tell me they are progressive Zionism do not accept Zionism as a process of settler colonialism, which it absolutely was. And I think it is absurd to live in a reality where it doesn't acknowledge that. So, so that is why I take, I take problem. I, I, I've never met, uh, yeah, somebody who doesn't consider themselves an anti-Zionist that is willing to think about Zionism in the context of settler colonialism.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Maybe that's the distinction
Mo Husseini: I have empathy [01:13:00] Uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I do too.
Mo Husseini: well, no, no, no. Like I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I,
Mo Husseini: uh, like, like, like...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: uh, like, like
Mo Husseini: Sure.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: let me just say that it... No, okay.
Mo Husseini: please. Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I've said enough.
Mo Husseini: don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: go on, please. Well, like I, like it, it is not, and it's not to say I don't have empathy with the people I engage with dialogue in and argue with, um, or debate. Um, and it's not that I don't tell that they are suffering, that they are wrestling with questions, that they are trying to make sense of things.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But I think as a person who had to do a certain amount of deprogramming of an indoctrination of, of, I will name Zionist indoctrination, which I never was even that committed to, but still inherited so much, like I would say they genuinely are also confused. They genuinely are also not understanding the, the grave, the, the amount of injustice that's been perpetrated [01:14:00] from this, the project of Israel.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The am- the amount... They-- I don't think they are really understanding the psychosis of Israeli society, the, the intense racism of a vast majority of that society. Not everyone, but a vast majority. I don't think they are understanding the relevance to the genocide in Gaza happening right now with, uh, uh, on a, on a level of deep, just evil of, of the tar- the bombing of hospitals, the targeting of healthcare workers, the, the starvation of children, uh, deliberately, the, the targeting of children deliberately.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like I don't think they are seeing that in the same way. They are, they are... They will say things like, "Well, yes, there's..." You know, and this goes back to what you talked about, not using the word genocide, not because you don't think genocide is happening, but not wanting to shut down the conversation. Well, if someone cannot [01:15:00] see, like, uh, if, if they cannot eq- equate this on the level of the Shoah, of the Holocaust, the Nazi Holocaust, and, and, and see that it is the same
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Evilness, you know, to, for lack of a better term, like these, these same deliberate harm caused. This is not self-defense. This is deliberate collective punishment. It is deliberate starvation, deliberate blocking of, uh, food and medicine, d- trying to make the Palestinian people suffer deliberately so they leave or feel disempowered.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, like, a- and it is not the, it is not one bad regime. It is not one bad leader or three bad leaders. It is, it, like, this has been built into the project of Israel. Like, I d- I don't think that the people that are defending Zionism, that are refusing to use the [01:16:00] word genocide, are actually... They, they might be, um, reckoning with part of the reality, but I don't think they're reckoning with the whole reality, and that is why I push back, and that is why I say the things like Jewish Nazi and apartheid.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, because I need to be provocative, because the, like, the, like, I think people need to be... This is just where I'm coming from. People, like, Jews need to take more of a reckoning. Like, I think there is a lack of reckoning in the Jewish community that still considers themselves Zionists. And anyway, that's where I'm coming from
Mo Husseini: to, to, to go back to my statement and, and, and I, uh, just because I'm going back to my statement doesn't mean that I didn't listen to what you just said. I, I, I was actually listening to what you just said. It doesn't change my statement. And, and what that statement is, is I have empathy. And what I mean by that is I look at, um... So the-- let's, [01:17:00] let's take Israel and, and Palestine away from this conversation for the briefest of moments and, and talk about what we are dealing with in this country. Okay? We're dealing with, in this country, a, um, a significant percentage of, uh, of Americans who look at our own history and, um, and feel regret and feel shame about the things that we have done as a country uh, to our own indigenous population and, uh, to, uh, to the enslaved, uh, Black bodies that we built this nation with, that we profited with, that we, you know, that the families that we destroyed for financial gain.
Mo Husseini: Uh, uh, you know, the entire plantation structure. And let's not [01:18:00] blame this all on the South, man. like there is plenty-- you know, there's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: of racism i-in the North, you know. And, uh, uh, and I have Black friends who will tell you they prefer the racism in the South because the racism in the South is at least upfront and, and that the racism in the North is, is hidden.
Mo Husseini: It's not that there's an absence of racism where I live here in the Pacific Northwest, right? Like, it, it, it, there, there's plenty of it. So anyway, my, my point is that there exists a, uh, segment of the American population that is willing to look at that, uh, rationally uh, ethically and morally and, uh, atone for the mistakes that we made, as a nation and, and try to, uh, repair There is also a significant part of our population, and that is reflected by MAGA, [01:19:00] uh, and the people who support, uh, um, that part of, uh, uh, the political spectrum who are offended. Who are offended that they're even being asked uh, acknowledge those things. And, and you'll say... You, you'll hear things about, you know, like, "Well, I didn't enslave you, and I didn't..."
Mo Husseini: You know, like, uh, uh, that's all... It's like, know, it's like, bro, like I, I get that logically, and yet the advantages that you live with today and, and, and, uh, um, you know, the, the realities that your kids, live with today as advantages are built on the backs of that whether you did it or not, right?
Mo Husseini: Like I've seen some, uh, uh, uh, some horrifying statistics about, you know, how inherited wealth, um, e- even in the middle class, right? Like when you look at the average, uh, net worth of a, uh, successful middle-class Black family and a successful [01:20:00] middle-class white family, they're dramatically different because you have generational wealth
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: that, you know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes, of course
Mo Husseini: you the cabin by the lake, you know? And blah, blah, blah. Like all these things, like they, they, they accrue and, and let's remember that it is still within living memory that this country in, in the United States was, was actively debating whether Black human beings should have the right to vote or, or even have the right to, to go to schools. L- Right? Like these are not-- These are things
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: lifetimes. Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm
Mo Husseini: and yet we are struggling with it in, in a situation that, that is not an active war. So when I say that I have empathy, I have empathy for my, uh, uh, Israeli brothers and sisters who are struggling with the same things. Because I know many Israelis who are deeply ashamed, [01:21:00] of, um, the advantages that they have and that their lives are built on, and, uh, of the structures that created the state that, that allows them to have these privileges. And I know Israelis who respond to that by telling you to like to go F yourself, and the reason we did this was the Holocaust, and we needed a place, and to go back to that language of we needed a place where we could lock the door, where we could be in charge of our own safety, et cetera, et cetera. And, and my, my point is not to, um, to diminish or, or attack either of those. Like I, I still-- I continue to believe that there needs to be, on the Israeli side, a recognition of the, of the harms done and, and the advantages taken and the-- and, and, and, uh, uh, um, the c- the stuff that has been done to the Palestinian people in, in many of the same ways that I, that I think Palestinians owe that to Israelis [01:22:00] as well. But once again, to be critically clear, right? Um, that's not an equality. That's not a symmetry, right? The, the-- There have been harms that Palestinians have, have made to Israelis and to Israeli society, 100%. Like I, I, I, I would be, uh, it, it, it-- I would be dishonest if I claimed that that didn't exist. But, but the scale is completely, completely different.
Mo Husseini: Like, like you, you are talking about, um, you, you are talking about differences that, that, that don't even fit on the same graphs,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes. And, and, uh, and I'll add to that, which is also ongoing
Mo Husseini: Yeah. 100%.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: f- there's an ongoing genocide, and it is
Mo Husseini: look,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Palestinians are living it. Yeah. So
Mo Husseini: no-- And there's, like, a-- And, and even more, even more than that, [01:23:00] right? Like, like at least, at least in the United States, to, to go back to that analogy, at least in the United States, at a certain point, most people agreed that, hey, this whole thing where we enslaved people, like that was bad, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and I don't think that that has, um, uh, the, the, the, that the equivalent kind of realization in, in Israeli society has, has taken root, Like, I don't think that that is a majoritarian perspective in, in-- Like, I do think it is a significant perspective, right? And a, and a growing one in the context of Israel, uh, of Israeli society.
Mo Husseini: I think, uh, when you, when you talk-- When, at least for me, like I've, I've, I've met lots of Israelis, once again, who are, uh, you know, some version of post-Zionist or, or, or, or, or non-Zionist or, or anti-Zionist, right? Like who have deep problems with [01:24:00] what their state has wrought. You look at the people in Breaking the Silence, you look at the, the, you know-- There, there are a lot of organizations within civil society in Israel that are doing the work and are standing up to do the work.
Mo Husseini: I, I-- But I think it's important to, to your point, to, to be very clear that that's not a majority, right? That, that-- And, and it's certainly not a political voting majority, right? Like, like in, in, in the, in the context of, uh, Israel. But once again, like I, w- w- I go back to my term empathy and, and I think about Palestinians and Palestinian society and, and, and the understanding that Palestinians have about, um, kind of, uh, uh, uh, their role in, uh, um, what has been going on and, uh, uh, where they have made mistakes, et cetera, et cetera.
Mo Husseini: And once again, I just, like I, I have to continually say this [01:25:00] The verbal statements can sound like symmetry very easily because I'm, I'm saying them at the same volume and, and with the same cadences, right? That's not to imply symmetries. There are, there are, uh, there are ethical and moral symmetries that are completely different than, than the, than the real, uh, uh, power imbalances and, uh, the, the real scales of suffering that, that exist on the land today
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I agree. And I know, and I, yeah, I, I agree completely. I guess where I continue to have to push back is I don't think that-- I don't feel like that is acknowledged enough in
Mo Husseini: B-by, by whom?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I- b-b-by, by Jewish, by Jewish people. By, by, by pr- by [01:26:00] somebody who I would say a, is a progressive Zionist or a liberal Zionist. By, by the idea of a s- y- you know, may- maybe this is a good segue because y-
Mo Husseini: So, so
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: you write
Mo Husseini: question? And, and I, I, I genuinely don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Please,
Mo Husseini: to this is. So,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: w- when you look at, uh, T'ruah, for example, right? Like the, the--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't know much about that organization
Mo Husseini: Rabbi Jacobs, uh, and, and, and her work, like, uh... Or other liberal Zionist groups, for example, like I, I, I'm not sure that I can-- I-- like I honestly haven't dug too much into T'ruah.
Mo Husseini: Like I've, I've seen their events and stuff like that. I don't know how they describe themselves. But, um, I, I look at their kind of recognition of the harms that have been done and, and of their positions and of [01:27:00] the things that they understand about what's happening, uh, on the land. I-- I, I don't see them as shying away from that.
Mo Husseini: So I, I guess I'm trying to understand who-- like where are you pointing, uh, uh, that at?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. So the, yeah, that's, that's a good question. So somebody I'm thinking of that I... Is somebody who's, uh, like a supporter of J Street, and, um, but then they did mention the new Israel Fund, which I know you have some ties to. Um, but you know, th-this person w-who is a rabbi, um, has said something to me like, "Don't you think Hamas..."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, d- you know, "Don't you think there is a, it, you know, some percentage, maybe half, maybe [01:28:00] more than half, that Hamas is at fault for what's happening in Gaza?" The implication, even, even, even while acknowledging that the Netanyahu, Smotrich, Ben-Gvir regime is like psychopathic, like he would absolutely acknowledge that.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, he's like, you know, basically like, "Well, if you poke the beast, d-don't you think..." You know? And I, I'm just like You know? Like, okay, so if, if a... Y- I just feel like that's victim-blaming. I feel like if a, if a, you know... Would you say that if the, you know, a woman of a sexual assault,
Mo Husseini: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: drunk husband comes home, and she slaps him because he gets too close to her, and then he goes and stabs her, like, you're gonna blame the woman?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I j- I just, I j- I just feel like that sort of [01:29:00] thinking, while I understand it, I just feel like it, it really masks the power imbalance and, and who's at fault. And
Mo Husseini: I think that, that,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: um, yeah
Mo Husseini: I, I, I think you're calling out something that's really important, right? Like, and, and, and so Look, I look at it this way, right? Like, uh, uh, there's a, um, there's a thing-- You know, I, I do a lot of work in corporate narratives and, and, you know, working with businesses on change management and, and trying to help them tell their stories, right? Like, and there's a trick that, uh, comes out of a Japanese, uh, management philosophy.
Mo Husseini: Uh, it's called the Toyota Five Whys, and you just keep asking why, right? Like, like, the, the, the gag is, like, when someone says something to you, you ask why, and then when they answer, you ask why again, and then when they answer, you ask why. You know, you do that five times and, and, and it, it's not so [01:30:00] mechanical as you have to do it exactly five times.
Mo Husseini: It's basically, like, keep asking why until you get to the answer, right? And so,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Why?
Mo Husseini: yeah, exactly. Uh, uh, but my point is, my point is, is, like, look, it, it, it's possible to ask a series of whys that gets you to a blame of Hamas, right? But then you have to ask why Hamas Right? And that gets you, you further down the chain, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, you know, uh, uh, a lot of, um, a lot of people, particularly people who don't understand the history in the region and who don't understand, uh, the politics in the region and who don't understand, like, the frankly Machiavellian kind of ma- machinations that, that happen, uh, i- in the region, right?
Mo Husseini: Like where, um You know, the kind of people who, who, who can't grok when you say like, [01:31:00] "Well, just to be clear, Netanyahu's been supporting Hamas for, for, for decades because they're useful." And then they'll go--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Who can't gr- what did you say? Who can't grok?
Mo Husseini: they, they, they, can't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: okay
Mo Husseini: when you go like, "Well, yeah, no, okay, great, like you don't like Hamas, but then we don't like Hamas, why has Netanyahu been, been supporting Hamas?
Mo Husseini: Like by allowing the money through to Hamas and, and, and, and in fact working to make sure that they continue to get money," right? Like, like why? Well,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: n- you know, now we're starting to dig into reasons. And like at a certain point you are going to get to the original sin here. And the original sin happens before the state of Israel, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and the original sin is the decision that we will not share this land And,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: and, and, to be clear, that [01:32:00] decision happened on both sides, right? like But the-- Let me finish before you jump in, right? Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. Yeah, I, yeah
Mo Husseini: both sides. Palestinians said like, "N-no, we don't wanna share this land."
Mo Husseini: And, and, and, and Jews said, "We..."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Did they say that
Mo Husseini: finish, please. Just one second.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, sorry.
Mo Husseini: because
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry.
Mo Husseini: a delicate point, right? Like, like Palestinians said
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: "W-we don't wanna share this land," and, and, and, uh, uh, uh, Jews said, "We don't wanna share this land." But it's important to understand how each of them said, don't wanna share this land." Because the Palestinian response, i-i-- if you go back to the Arab Higher Committee and the k- the kinds of conversations that were happening in the '20s and the '30s with the British, the Palestinians' response was there should be one state that is secular and democratic, and that everyone within that [01:33:00] state should have the same rights within that state, that y- that, that that is what we want. the other side, you had a set of people who were, who were coming fresh from trauma in Europe, wanted to create a European-looking state in the land that privileged Jews. That was the, that was the refusal on, on the Jewish side, and, and, and that was the refusal on the Palestinian side
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can I jump in or
Mo Husseini: Go ahead
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I wanna let you finish? Okay. So I, this doesn't add up for me because w- because what you're saying to me sounds like Jews said, "We don't wanna share the land," and Palestinians said, "We do wanna share the land." So I don't, I don't see how you get Palestinians saying, "We want democratic s- one democratic state with equal rights," and saying that means, I think that means exactly we wanna share the land[01:34:00]
Mo Husseini: that in the sense of like, I mean that in the sense of like we don't wanna partition the land, so i-i-i- is what I was getting at. Sorry. I, I, I s-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Oh, well that, but sh- but sharing and partitioning
Mo Husseini: it's a, it's a it's a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: is, are two different things.
Mo Husseini: what I'm
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: One is sharing and one is dividing. Yeah. Okay. So that, yeah. So to me, I fault, I fault the Zionists like that
Mo Husseini: I think you could, I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 'cause that is actually like an incredibly, like, the, the, what you're articulating is actually like not, not only is that I believe to be an equitable response, but it is an incredibly generous response.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So because I, I'd say the Palestinians could have very well said, "We don't want one democratic state. Get the fuck out of here. There's, you're, you're sending too many people. I'm sorry you're traumatized, but you should let, let the countries that you're coming from take you." You know? Like, so [01:35:00] to me it just like cements how, how generous and, and like the, the Palestinian people were at the time.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, yeah
Mo Husseini: this. Like, I, I don't wanna engage in hagiography of, uh, uh, of Palestinians and, and, uh, uh, you know, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: know what that word means
Mo Husseini: um, the, the making, creating a sainthood, uh, uh, you know. Like, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure. Okay. I don't either. Yeah, no
Mo Husseini: in the context of what was happening then, the, the, the, the Palestinians wanted to find a solution that was acceptable within the context of a British, uh, uh, political and military mandate that controlled the land, right?
Mo Husseini: So, so when you hear things like the Arab Higher Committee and, and, and the, and the k- the kinds of conversations around the, you know, the Peel white papers and all that other stuff, the Palestinian positions are, are, are, are not a function of like, "Oh my God, we're just, like, such lovely, awesome democratic people."
Mo Husseini: They're reacting within the context of a framework that says like, [01:36:00] "We believe that this is what is possible," right? I, I, I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Understood. Yeah
Mo Husseini: important to understand, uh, uh, that first of all, right? Like, so I don't wanna engage in like, "Oh my God, we were just, like, such awesome democratic, like, fantastic people."
Mo Husseini: Like, that, that's not what I'm saying on any level.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I appreciate that clarification yeah
Mo Husseini: calculations, uh, at that time that would've been different had a, uh, uh, a political entity that they controlled existed at that time, right? Like, the, I wanna put that on one side. I think on the other side, the part that Palestinian- where Palestinians really fucked up, really fucked up, and, and, and it's an irony, is that we did not understand the antisemitism of the West. And, and what I mean by that, that is, is, is, is that in many ways, to me, uh, the creation of the state, uh, of [01:37:00] Israel, uh, as it exists today, uh, is a function of, uh, Western antisemitism and the, uh, um, uh, the- brilliance, frankly, of early Zionists taking advantage of that, uh, antisemitism, right? Like, like if you look at the internal, um, writings of, uh, British politicians in the '20s and, and, you know, the, the early teens, like they're trying to, a- and, and I'm, I'm, I'm using their language, solve the Jewish problem, right?
Mo Husseini: They, they, they're not doing it out of a, a deep love for the Jews or, or a sense of Zionism or anything like that. Like, when you are...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. They're trying to get the Jews out of their country
Mo Husseini: Like, you, you are engaging with people who fundamentally continue to believe that the Jews are other, [01:38:00] right? Like that there is, that no, no matter how long you live in this country, whether you've been here since the, uh, 1100s or the 1200s, and, and no matter how, uh, English you are, you are still a Jew, and you will never be English enough.
Mo Husseini: And in fact, if you, if you go and you look at, uh, some of the debates in Parliament about the Balfour Declaration and things like that, like some of the most principled kind of opposition to that is coming from Jewish people who i- in,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Montague
Mo Husseini: uh, who are coming, going like, "What the F are you doing here?"
Mo Husseini: You know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: I think that, a-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: that guy m- yeah, go on
Mo Husseini: and I think that it's important to recognize that, that, that, that, that there was an equivalent political calculation made by early Zionists to, that, that is equivalent to the political, uh, uh, calculation made by early, you know, Palestinians in that math, right? And I think that Palestinians [01:39:00] fundamentally underestimated the, uh, uh, um, the antisemitism of the West and the desire to solve the Jewish problem, and, um, I think they also fundamentally underestimated the, uh, colonial perspective of the colonial powers who saw this nascent state, y- in, from, you know, from an early, uh, uh, from an early perspective of European Jews installed in the land as, as, as a bastion for, uh, f- for European interests in the region, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I think that that was an Arab miscalculation, and I think that frankly, a- as a, a, as a political entity, early Zionists understood European politics. Like, you know, uh, uh, turn-of-the-century Palestinians were not playing with full information and with, with, with, w- were not playing with a, uh, [01:40:00] uh, with an unmarked deck, and, uh, early Zionists understood the math.
Mo Husseini: You know, they understood the, the, they understood the calculations in ways that Palestinians never understood it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Well, but let me ask, so what... You said Palestinians fucked up, to use your words. Like, what-- Had they understood that, what could they have done differently? Like,
Mo Husseini: don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: don't see what the error was
Mo Husseini: uh, I, I, I, I, I'm not sitting here blaming Palestinians. I, I really am not because I don't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: was anything that Palestinians could have done to, to change the outcome. Certainly, I think that that was potentially possible before the rise of Hitler Right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like I think I, I...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. How?
Mo Husseini: Because I think that after World War II, th- there was going to be no conversation[01:41:00]
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. But I mean, the, y- but '36 to '39, like the Arab Revolt, like the, it...
Mo Husseini: but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: feel like e- enough people could read the writing on the wall
Mo Husseini: to '39 is also, is also a, a... In Europe, you are seeing the rise of antisemitism as an organization. Like, it's not like Jews were fine till '39 in Europe, right? Like, there, there was already Jews trying to leave Europe and head to the United States and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: to, uh, uh, uh, you know, other places, including, uh, in- including Palestine. like, it, the writing was already on the wall in terms of what was already happening in Europe, right? Like, once what, once Hitler, uh, w- w- you know, once the Weimar Republic ends, really, like, you understand what's happening
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I guess I just don't understand where the, what, what the main fuck up is. Uh, but may- maybe it's not worth
Mo Husseini: my point.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: ex-
Mo Husseini: think there's a fuck-up. Like, [01:42:00] I, I don't think Palestinians had control of it, uh, beyond, um, beyond kind of the early days, if that makes sense. And, and even then, I don't think they had much control. Like There is no Palestinian agency, for fuck's sake, right? but, but, but but to be clear,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: there's no agency at all. Like, like, you know, like one of the things that, that I studied, uh, very deeply, uh, when I was at Berkeley was the history of Vietnam um, the history of that conflict and, and kind of engaging with that conflict and having, uh, having a, um, much deeper, like not like, "Oh, what happened in the 1960s?"
Mo Husseini: understanding of that conflict, right? Because you can go back and there's like a famous story about like Chi Minh getting his, uh, fingers, uh, trapped in the door at Versailles when they slammed the door on him [01:43:00] when he was like walking in to talk about what needed to happen with Vietnam after World War I, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and this is, this is in the teens, right? Like, this is before Ho Chi Minh is anybody that anybody in the West has heard of, right? Like at, at that point, um The Vietnamese person wanting to be in the room when the future of Vietnam was discussed had the door slammed on them because little brown and yellow and, and, and, and, uh, non-Christian people, don't trouble yourselves with these decisions.
Mo Husseini: We'll make them for you, right? Like, that's what Versailles was, right? Like, like it was a bunch of, a bunch of global powers, AKA white European powers that were, that were coming together to carve up the world, right? And that's where you end up with, uh, Mandate, [01:44:00] uh, Mandate Palestine. That's where you end up with countries like Iraq and Syria and all these things that are, you know, straight lines drawn across a map by people. Uh, not people in the region, right? Like people who are sitting in, in Whitehall and, uh, Quai d'Orsay and, and deciding, uh, uh, what the world should look like and dividing colonies a- amongst themselves and handing out like German territory to each other. Um, we were never involved in that conversation. We were not allowed to be in those rooms. Uh, when we were involved in those conversations, we, we were, uh, we were involved in those conversations on an, uh, "Well, why don't you give us... You know, we're gonna open public commentary, uh, for you." Like, "Oh, great. Well, we've listened to you and, and, and, and go fuck yourself now." And I think that, that Palestinians um, ab ovo, uh, disadvantaged in that conversation because we, y- [01:45:00] you know, this is, uh, this is a moment where you're talking about brown people and white people engaging with other white people, and there's a hierarchy of race and civilization.
Mo Husseini: And yes, Europe did not necessarily look at Jews as fully white, they looked at them as far more white and far more European than, you know, excuse my language, the fucking Arabs, right? Like, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: i- in a room where, um- Uh, i-i-in a room where members of the Arab Higher Committee want to come and talk to you, and a room where, uh, people from the World Zionist Congress want to come and talk to you, uh, one of those groups looks more like you. One of those groups, uh, knows where to put their pocket watch. Um, they--
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yep. Yep
Mo Husseini: knows how to hold the teacup. Uh, you know, and, and I, I don't say those [01:46:00] things, uh, uh, lightly, right? Like, those things matter. We see it today. Like, we, we, we see it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: the gatekeeping and, and the kinds of shitty comments you get about, um, you know, uh, um, uh, Black American, uh, uh, dialect, right? Like, as, as being somehow less than, even though if you actually...
Mo Husseini: Like, for me as a writer, like, I look at, uh, I look at Black language and, and find it, like, beaut- like, deeply poetic and beautiful and amazing and informed by these, like, years of church and all this stuff. And yet today, in, in kind of modern, uh, modern, uh, w-w-white majority discourse, that's somehow looked down on, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, that the people who speak like that are less cultured or less smart or, or any of those things. And, and that's just, like, a human reality. And I think that, you know... So when I say that I think Palestinians made a mistake, I mean a mistake i-in the sense of, uh, uh, political framing. I don't mean a mistake in the sense [01:47:00] of impact, um, because I don't think we had any, uh, choice or agency at that time.
Mo Husseini: I, I think these were decisions being made in rooms far away from anything we were invited to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And just to be clear, do you think the early Zionists and the Jewish immigrants, the people from Europe coming over had agency and could have done it differently?
Mo Husseini: I think it depends who you're talking about. Um, uh, I, uh, I, I think that the vast majority of, uh, uh, of Jews coming to Israel in or, Palestine to, to, to create Israel in, in that era were just coming to get away from shit. Like, I, I, I don't think they came with, like, a, a, a burning Zionist zeal, if that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I think they came to get away from, uh, centuries if not [01:48:00] millennia of oppression in Europe. Um, I think that, uh, um, and I think that this is where, uh, you know, a lot of people get sideways. It's like, I-- look, I, I, I do not deny and have never denied, like, the sense of a Jewish connection to the land of Palestine, to the land of Israel, whatever you wanna call it, but to that land between the river and the sea. It's historic, it's ancient, it's lasted for millennia, and it's, it's spiritual. It's tied to their belief system. And, and don't, don't get me wrong, I, I, I don't think that that was the motivation for going there. I think that the motivation was like, "Look, get the fuck out of here. Let's go. Where should we go?"
Mo Husseini: You had a bunch of people who were like, "Let's go to the US," and the US said like, "Oh, fuck no. We don't want you here." Right? Like, that's, that's the data. When you look at, when you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: the US is like, "No, we don't want more Jewish immigrants." Same thing in the UK. [01:49:00] And yeah, like w- w- the British were saying like, "Well, why don't you go-- Why, why don't you go to Palestine?"
Mo Husseini: And even when they got there, they weren't letting them off the boats in, in, in many ways, right? Like, like this was, um... I think this was a place that was, uh, a good place to go for them. It also aligned with this historical kind of connection to the land, a sense of a connection to the land that I think has been, um, weaponized in, in modern times, if that makes sense, and, and, and, and inflated
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: what it ever was prior to, uh, uh, Zionism.
Mo Husseini: Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Great. And
Mo Husseini: from a spiritual connection into like, no, no, no, this has been long been a historic political yearning. And, and, and I think that, you know, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yes
Mo Husseini: book, uh, on the Bund and, and all of the kinds of conversations that were actually happening when Zionism happened is that, you know, in fact, the majority of Jews did not view it as [01:50:00] like a long-held political ambition.
Mo Husseini: It was a spiritual connection. Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Thank you.
Mo Husseini: the same way Muslims feel about Mecca, Like, one of these days, I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: on a hajj, right? Like, it doesn't mean that that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. Whi- which is, which is different, like, because the, to have an idea even in a spiritual sense of the land is... And, and you can legitimately have that, but that is different than saying you are the indigenous people of that land, that worked that land, that know that land, that knew the native agriculture, the species of the land.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, and that is, I think, what drives me crazy when, you know, Zionists today will talk about this sort of historic spiritual longing for an idea of this land because it is talked about in the Torah and, and [01:51:00] equating it as, you know, the same as the continuity of presence that Palestinian people had, many of whom would have actually been the descendants from the Jews that lived there 2,000 years ago.
Mo Husseini: irony of it all, is that fundamentally what
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: with is i- if you, i- i- if you look at the, if you look at the way that humans behave throughout the world, Like uh, people who are conquered don't move They, they adapt to the, the, the conquering
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right.
Mo Husseini: you know, uh, when, uh, when Rome takes over France, the French don't leave. just become Gauls, right? Like, and, and they, they, they adopt Roman ways and they adopt Latin and, uh, all of a [01:52:00] sudden French becomes a Romance language because it's taking words from Latin. But those people aren't any less French for, for having been run by Italians from Rome.
Mo Husseini: There weren't enough fucking Romans to populate the Roman Empire, right? Um, I, I think the same is true in the Middle East, right? Like, another term I fucking hate but get trapped into using all the time, but, like, uh, if I say
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: al-Sham, uh, most, uh, Westerners get confused. But, um, I think if you look at, um, I, I think if you look at the Islamic, uh, uh, conquest, the, the, you know, the Muslims out of peninsular Arabia, they come and they basically say, like, "Here's the deal.
Mo Husseini: You can become Muslim or you can stay not Muslim. If you're not Muslim, here's the laws and, uh, you have to pay a tax," like the dhimmi, uh, uh, uh, kind of taxes, uh, uh, and things like that. uh, "We're, we're gonna leave some administrators here and we're going on to conquer [01:53:00] the next fucking thing," right? Like, and, uh, that's what the Romans did, that's what the Greeks did.
Mo Husseini: That's, like, every empire does this. That's how you extend it. That's what the British did. I mean, like, when you look at the East India Company taking over all of India, like, the number of people it takes in the army, uh, that take over all of India is like, it's comical how few people it is, right? Like, it, it's not like British people took over India. British people Anglicized India. They Anglicized, uh, uh, much of the culture and the politics there, but the people remained Indian, if that makes sense. And, and I think that, that there's no different. I think, I, I think that most Palestinians today who are Palestinian are, uh, uh, are, are the descendants of, of and Jews and, and, and, and others from that region who have just, like, adapted to whatever is running them now.
Mo Husseini: "Okay, we're-- I guess we're Roman now. Oh, I, I guess we're [01:54:00] Ottoman now. I guess we're..." You know, whatever, whatever math that happens to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: And, um, you know, the irony of it all is, like, I absolutely, you know, like, I absolutely believe that, that, that Jews have a connection to the land, but I just don't feel that anybody's connection to any land is, um, is a connection that can be used to oppress someone else's connection to that land.
Mo Husseini: That's, that's where I draw my lines, if that makes sense.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sure, sure. Um, I, in the spirit of, um
Mo Husseini: Please
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Giving you permission to narrate freely as a Palestinian. Um, because I feel like a lot of, you know, I do feel like there's this irony and tension to this conversation where, like, I feel like I'm being like, "Say more mean things about Zionists," and you're like, "I'm not gonna."
Mo Husseini: Look, dude, like, don't get me wrong, and, and this
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but,
Mo Husseini: this is
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [01:55:00] no, I...
Mo Husseini: get trapped.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Wait, wait. No, no, no. Don't, don't, don't... Oh, sorry. But that's... Okay. I, what I want to say is you, you've been involved in lots of, like, dialogues with, with Israelis and Jews. Like, I ju- just for a moment, without having to explain yourself or, or, or defend empathy, which I know y- y- which was obvious you have in abundance.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, I... Can you just articulate, like, what are the most frustrating things as a Palestinian, as somebody deeply familiar with the history? Like, what, what are just these things that you have in these conversations which you just feel like are, you know, you, you, you have a hard time with and you're frustrated with?
Mo Husseini: mean, I think that [01:56:00] I think there's a profound tragedy in, um and the Palestinian cause. And, and that profound tragedy is that our oppressors are Some of the most oppressed people in the world Historically, right? And, and it, and, and, and it makes, it makes any of our very real losses and our very real pains, uh, very easy for people to pull up into a scorecard, right? And, and you see it with the, you see it with the genocide conversation, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like a Palestinian cannot in all good faith say to, uh, say to the world like, "Look By this, according to this set of [01:57:00] rules that you all agreed to in 1950, when this, when, when the Palestinian, uh, des- uh, when the destruction of Gaza was not a live issue, what you agreed was genocide in 1950, these are the rules. I, I can print them out, I can look at them, and I can apply them to this situation and say like, "Dude, like, uh, explain to me how this is not what you wrote down in 1950." You can't say that without somebody going, "Well, about the Shoah? Are you comparing Gaza to the Shoah?" You know, and, and it very quickly, uh, because of the fact that our oppressors are historically so oppressed, um, because of the fact that our oppressors have historically had their story centered [01:58:00] with, with good reason.
Mo Husseini: Like, just to be clear, like this is not, is, this is, this is, this is-- No, no, just let, let me finish my statement,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah, sorry.
Mo Husseini: I understand why Jewish suffering is, has been centered after the Shoah, right? It makes it really hard to advocate for yourself, to advocate for the rights of your people in a way that does not sound like you are dismissing the suffering of Jews. And that's why I try to be as, um, uh, empathetic as I can. And I just wanna be very clear, like I'm not deferring to Jewish feelings. Like I'm not trying to s- continue to center their feelings by changing the way that I, uh, uh, that I advocate for Palestinians.
Mo Husseini: It's merely that, that, that I ha- that I insist upon a, a sensitivity about being [01:59:00] clear about what I'm saying because, because it's such a weaponized space, and because it's so easy to take people out of context and make them sound like they are anti-Semites, to make them sound like they are i- in some way, shape, or form advocating for the, for, for, for a continued oppression of Jews, which I'm not.
Mo Husseini: Like, look, to... I, and I, and I think that that's true for, uh, Palestinians. I, I think most, I don't think that, um Like I, like I, I know that there is a terror. Like I know that there is a terror in, in, in Jewish culture the Arabs are dying to like just take over and oppress all the Jews and, and kill all the Jews and kick them out and whatever, and like... [02:00:00] I, I know that that exists. Um, but to be clear, like that's what we're living with
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: That, that, that's what we see every day, uh, from ministers of the government that, that sits over us, who, who say things that in, in any other country of- in the world w- would be called out as racism, would be, would be called out as oppression and, and apartheid and, and war crimes.
Mo Husseini: And yet, um, there is, there is a dispensation given to the State of Israel that does not exist, uh, uh, for other states. And I, I think once again, that is a function of the Shoah, that is a function of this aboriginal, uh, um, uh, Western oppression of the Jews. And don't get me wrong, like I'm not saying like like, you know, uh, uh, Muslims were [02:01:00] awesome to, to Jews throughout history. Um, what I'm saying is that Muslims were way fucking better to, Jews than Europeans, Um, I, I don't think,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: have had a particular antipathy towards Jews any more than they have a particular antipathy towards, uh, uh, Christians, if that makes sense. Like, like, speaking, I'm not talking about what exists today as a function of the, the, the State of Israel and, and, and its behavior. I, I think historically, if you go back, like the perception of Jews is like, "Yeah, they're close." People of the Book where they're not quite, but, you know, close enough kind of thing. Um, did we, uh, you know, did, did, did, did, did Muslims treat, uh, um, Jews and Christians as absolutely 100% equal citizens?
Mo Husseini: Absolutely not. Like, I'm not here to pretend, uh, anything else. But we, we did not engage in the kinds of, uh, [02:02:00] industrial wholescale, uh, uh, massacres of Jews that, that existed, uh, uh, in Europe. But, but, but to, to kind of come back to it, I, I, I go back to my father, I go back to stories about my grandfather, I go back to stories about my great-grandfather, and, and these are stories that are, you know, written in books, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, uh, um, they had, uh, they had familial and social, uh, relationships with other Jewish Palestinian families, historically, and have always had them. Like we, uh, uh, we as a group, had to en- uh, e- engage in a society that was far more multicultural than most places in the world, right? Like, like the, the, like y- there weren't many places on the planet that had as many kind of Jews [02:03:00] and Christians and Arabs and Armenians and bl- like there was all kinds of people in the, in air
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: "Holy Land," right? And, and w- for the most part, the people who lived there figured it out. so when you ask me what I think the hardest part is, I, I think the hardest part, uh, the, the hardest part, like once again for me, like just comes down to this idea of like how do you advocate for your people when your opponent is, is somebody that you can look at, uh, uh, um And with all honesty say like, "Look man, I feel bad for you.
Mo Husseini: I feel bad for all the shit that you went through." Uh, uh, you know, be it the Holocaust, be it, be, be it, uh, Europe, be it, like you name it. Like, I feel bad for all of these historical traumas that, that have been, uh, uh, placed on the backs of Jewish people But none of those give you the right to do that to me And that turn, that, that turn, that little [02:04:00] pivot to say, "But none of that," the second you say but at the end of that statement, like you're already suspect Because for people, for people to whom that history is the largest thing in the rearview mirror, hearing the word but is like, "What do you mean but? Like, how dare you? My family was massacred at Auschwitz or Bergen-Belsen," whatever, right? Like, like, you know, it sounds like a Even when it's not intended as a even when it's intended as
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: of, uh, uh, of empathy and sympathy and understanding, uh, and, and, and just as a like, "Hey man, I get this.
Mo Husseini: I understand this, but..." Right? Like, that but becomes weaponized, right? Like, it becomes like you're diminishing the Holocaust, you're diminishing Jewish trauma, you don't care about Jewish fears, blah, blah, blah, blah. And [02:05:00] even when you are coming from a place that, that isn't, that isn't that, it becomes hard to do that, especially in the context of a world that has plenty of bad faith actors
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Well, uh, uh, and I feel like th- this is obviously an issue of, th- this is just like a semantic thing, and I'm, I'm thinking out loud here, but it seems like
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It should be so obvious that the but could be a, "And that's why." Like, you know, a- as, as, you know, we've suffered, you know, like, w- may- could you perhaps not say, "You've suffered horrible historic trauma and injustice, and that's why you should understand how wrong it is to repeat that injustice on another people"?
Mo Husseini: can I, can I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, should [02:06:00] be able to say that, and you should be able to say that
Mo Husseini: you something? Like, A, partially that is true, which-- and, and, and it's true, uh, both in people like you who, who, who are Jewish and, and are seeing that, and it's also true in, in a lot of Israelis that I know. And, and I mean this genuinely, right? Like, I have conversations, uh, I have conversations with Israeli friends and, and their attacks on, uh, uh, Israeli culture and, and Jewish culture coming from the inside are even more-- They're like, they're beyond the point where I'm comfortable.
Mo Husseini: It's like, dude, I can't, like... Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, they are able to critique inside the family in a way that I am not w- w-
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: with,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: But, but I think that the problem with your statement i- is not a problem with the statement itself, it's, it's a problem with human nature. And I think that, um, uh, that, that pivot from, from a but [02:07:00] to a and that is why, um, um presupposes that, uh, that, that trauma is easy to get over Right? And, and, and I think that that's part of the problem is, is, is, is look You know, in, in the longer piece that I haven't published and will not be publishing, like I talk about antisemitism and I talk about, uh, the weaponization of antisemitism and the weaponization of the weaponization of antisemitism, right? Because I th- I think that they're, th- they're connected, right? Like there's three things and they're connected, right?
Mo Husseini: Antisemitism is fucking real. It fucking exists. It's fucking toxic, and, and it, and it's killing people, okay? Um, and, and it, and, and, and it's doing it in a way that, that, [02:08:00] uh, anti-I-Islamic sentiment is as well, right? Like, like people are getting attacked in places of worship. People are getting attacked for wearing certain things, for believing certain things, and, and with no connection to their actual political views or anything like that.
Mo Husseini: Lit- literally for, uh, religious and visual and identity reasons, right? That exists. I am not minimizing it. And, and l- let's be super fucking clear, it's rising. It's increasing, And, uh, um, there are reasons it's increasing. I don't think, uh, the state of Israel's behavior is helping, uh, that de- decrease, to put it mildly. Um, but, but nonetheless, it exists, and I'm not here to justify it in any way, shape, or form. I think it's also true that the state of Israel and many others who support it have weaponized the charge of antisemitism and have, have, uh, um... And in fact, I, I think have made a strategic error by [02:09:00] like, uh, over-egging the pudding.
Mo Husseini: Like I, you know, like I might give you the benefit of the doubt on people that I've never heard of, but like when you're accusing like Ms. Rachel of being like one of the top 10 antisemites is like, I, I'm like, I'm sorr- like, what? Like, like y- you've jumped the shark
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: point, and like you've, you've,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: me permission to just fucking ignore you, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, like because
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: like I, I'm not an idiot and like I, uh, like I've seen this lady's TV shows and it's like I, I, I don't mean this dismissively. Like, they're-- it, it, it's like accusing Mr. Rogers of being a racist. like, huh? Like, what? Like, I, uh... Okay. But anyway, but, but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But the problem is...
Mo Husseini: Like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: go on.
Mo Husseini: so you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: as kind of step two, which is like people are weaponizing antisemitism and, and in that process, what they're doing i-i-is, is they're cheapening the charge, right? Like I, I [02:10:00] think it was, uh, Bassem Youssef who was on a thing. He was like, "You know, if you're accusing, uh, uh, Ms.
Mo Husseini: Rachel of being an antisemite, you should accuse me too, because, like, I'm honored by the comparison to her," right? Like, uh, uh,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm. Yeah
Mo Husseini: thing that you're accusing people of, like, doesn't fucking mean anything anymore, right? But I think that there's a terrible next step, which is the weaponization of the weaponization, which is like people-- a-and I see this in the pro-Palestine movement to some extent, who, because of the weaponization of antisemitism, have, like, started to drift into something like, well, antisemitism is not a thing, or, or like they, they, they begin to, uh, they begin to almost deprecate the realities of some very real antisemitisms and say like, "Oh, no.
Mo Husseini: Well, that's anti-Israelism." And it's like, look, dude, I would be the first person to tell you, like, uh, like, it is not to criticize the state of [02:11:00] Israel. Absolutely not. 100% not antisemitic to criticize the state of Israel. possible to criticize the state of Israel in ways that are antisemitic, and that is an important distinction, and it is, it, it, it is possible to engage in critiques of, uh, perspectives on Israel that are antisemitic.
Mo Husseini: And, um, the diminishing of the existence of antisemitism merely because the accusation is getting, uh, uh, bandied about by pro-Israel folks in ridiculous ways is, is also, is, is also an overcorrection in the wrong direction, if that makes sense. um- Because of all that, it just makes it a very, uh, uh, it makes it a very fraught discussion. it makes it a very hard place to, uh To have real [02:12:00] conversations between real people without, people stressing out about what they're saying and how they're saying it and, and, and how they're engaging with things. It's, it's why I'm, uh, uh, it's why I'm so obsessed with words and making sure that I use the right ones and, and, and, and, and, and not the wrong ones. Not because they change my argument, but because I'm trying to ensure that the conversation, stays focused on actually solving a problem and not a problem
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Can we take a two-minute break?
Mo Husseini: as you want, brother
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay. And are you...
Mo Husseini: can
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I d- I don't, I, we, I know we've already been going for a while. Okay. Um, yeah, let's just, I just have to, uh, do something real quick. Let's just take a two-minute break. I'll be,
Mo Husseini: gonna, I'm, I'm
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but I, yeah, I'm... Okay, great[02:13:00] [02:14:00] [02:15:00]
Mo Husseini: Hey,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: right. Um, hey
Mo Husseini: You
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm fine. I'm fine. Um, I have, uh, sometimes I have, like, little tics I do that I've had my whole life if, if, if that's what you're
Mo Husseini: no. I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: referring to
Mo Husseini: you, you felt like I was tiring you out, and I apologize if that's the case
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Oh, no, no, you're not tiring me out. No, no, this is, this is getting, it's getting good. Um, y- you just said some [02:16:00] stuff that I would like to address, but I, I kind of wanna do it within the context, within... I, I think I could weave it into this context, which is I'd, I'd like to read something, a quote from your previous essay, if you don't mind.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, and maybe we could just dive into this idea for a little bit. Um Okay. These are your words. "I've spent the years since 9/11 being asked, 'Do you conden-- do you condemn?' As if my failure to denounce a thing I had nothing to do with quickly enough constituted in itself an admission of guilt. I lived through seeing the machinery of collective suspicion turn every Arab and Muslim in America into a category to be managed, surveilled, processed, deplaned, no-fly-listed, and occasionally invited to the FBI office for a chat with a [02:17:00] man whose name was unlikely to be his name.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I know what it feels like when an entire, when an entire society decides that you are individually That, that who you are individually matters less than which box you tick. I know what it feels like to stop being a person and start being a representative of a people you have no power over and no quarrel with.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I lived that in my body every day for twenty years, and now I'm watching the identical machinery, different nouns, but the same architecture and the same wiring and the same fucking trap being aimed at a Jewish people-- at Jewish people. Do you condemn Israel? The same rigid test or the same rigged test, the same endless queue of accusations where the moment you condemn one thing, the next charge is already loaded into the breach, and the moment you hesitate, the hesitation is, is itself the verdict.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I refuse it in both directions, not because the situations are morally equivalent. The power is not symmetrical, [02:18:00] the responsibility is not symmetrical, the suffering is not symmetrical, and I have never pretended otherwise. I refuse it because the machinery is identical, and the machinery is the enemy. So that's the quote.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And I, I, I, I guess I, I would like to unpack this and, and potentially push back on it more and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: The, the, the reason I wanna push back on it is not because of the first part. I, I do think the, the, the, you know, uh, uh, your lived experience as a member of the, quote, "Arab world" or, you know, somehow implicated as being a part, you know, 9/11, like I, I n- I don't at all agree that that is something that any Muslim or Arab person in this country should have had to go through.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [02:19:00] However, and, and maybe, maybe I have a contradiction, y- you know, which, which I'd be happy if, if you could point out. I'm, you know, I... Maybe my thinking isn't aligned. But, but I do feel like As Jewish people and as representatives and, and if someone today who is, who is, um, part of Jewish institutions, which are by and large Zionist institutions and organizations, I do feel like we should have to condemn, condemn what's happening on, in our name in Gaza and in Palestine.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, because we are the, is very much part of that machinery of, um, not in the machinery you speak of, but to use machinery in a different context. Like, yeah, [02:20:00] yeah. Like we miseducated our, we miseducate our children in our communities, and we are miseducated about the nature of, of Israel and Palestine. We send our youth, s- such as the program that I was in when I went to high school as 15, where I was, you know, just, it's, it's ostensibly a liberal arts Jewish program, but you spend a week going to the IDF learning how to ma- sh- sh- shoot a gun, and then are told, "You know, if you want to, you can make Aliyah in two years and do this for real."
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, uh, we send kids on birthright trips that, you know, uh, uh, um, that teach propaganda. We send on March of the Living trips that weaponize Jewish trauma, historical trauma. Like, and, and those synagogues and those, the federations that host events where they send IDF soldiers and are marked as family events, like [02:21:00] th- this is, this is very much part of that machinery.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: So I, I, I think it's actually a strategic error and a moral failing in some ways to, to say, to not hold up American Jews that are, that are part of any sort of Jewish institution, um, which are again, by and large Zionist organizations to say, um, "Do you condemn?" Like, I, I think we actually have to be asked this question.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I don't think we are trustworthy otherwise. And, but how do you see it?
Mo Husseini: I, ethically I reject that.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay
Mo Husseini: I, reject it, I reject it on strictly ethical grounds. And, and I reject it on strictly ethical grounds because I think it's a, it, it's a conflation of the individual and the identity. and, and for me, it becomes about choice. And, and, and, and I mean that very specifically, which is, um [02:22:00] Look, one of the things that, that I've, I've taught my, my son and, and it's one of the things that, that I, uh, stick to is, um, I don't comment on things that people can't, uh, uh, that, that, that people did not have a hand in choosing. And, and what I mean by that is, like for example, um If someone posts a picture of themselves, like, and I wanna compliment them, I don't say, "You're beautiful," or, "You're handsome," or, or whatever. Like, I comment on choices that they've made, right? Like, "I love that dress." Like, "I love your hair." Like, the-- those are, those are affirmative decisions that somebody has made, that, that, that, that, that they have made to distinguish themselves or to categorize themselves. And, um, [02:23:00] I think that those kinds of things are open to critique, those kinds of things are open to assumption. So, for example, if you come to me and you say to me that, uh, I'm a Republican, right? Like, I, I feel exactly zero compunction about, about criticizing your decision to be a Republican, about criticizing your, your beliefs, your political da, da, da, da, da, you name it, and on and on and on and on, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, I, I don't have any problem with that. Um, I do have a problem with, uh, going to someone and going like, "Well, your, your Blackness Means I need you to Kanye West Right? Or I need you, I, because of your Blackness, I need [02:24:00] you to denounce, uh, the Reverend Wright and his, uh, uh, uh, his positions on the American state. Or because of your Blackness, um, I need you to have an opinion on, uh, what 2 Live Crew is, uh, is saying in, uh... or NWA or any of these things. It's like, dude, I didn't, I didn't choose to be Black, and your assumption that my Blackness connects me to these people in, in some way, shape, or form is in and of itself racist, right?
Mo Husseini: So it-- L-let me continue that. So if someone comes to me and says, like, "I'm a Likudnik," "I support Netanyahu," or, "I think what Smotrich is doing..." Like, sure, absolutely. Like, you can have any, uh, critique of those positions that, that, that, that leap to mind, depending on who you are and, and what [02:25:00] your critiques are. The-- Where I draw the line is the assumption that because you are Jewish, you somehow support Smotrich, because you, uh, uh, because your last name is Cohen, that, that that says anything about your perspective on Palestinian rights or, uh, uh, who should have a, um, uh, who should be able to return to the land. Do you understand what I'm saying? Like, that-that's where I draw my line
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I, I understand. Yeah, I understand, but, and, and maybe we're not saying things that are contradictory because I feel like the, the people that I'm trying to implicate here are the people involved in the organizations that are actively choosing to align with Israel and Zionism right now
Mo Husseini: like, to me, that would be a fair distinction. Like, look, uh, I think, I think if you wanna go and challenge J Street on their, uh, uh, uh, on their, uh, support of a two-state solution that is not a [02:26:00] two-state solution, that is, like, a one state plus a Bantustan, like, we, uh, that's-- To me, that's fully above board.
Mo Husseini: Like, I don't have a problem with that. Where, where,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: S-
Mo Husseini: have a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, but so I guess...
Mo Husseini: a problem is
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: I'd like to introduce you to my friend, uh, you know, Mike Cohen." I'm like, "Oh, Cohen. Fucking, you know, that guy's Jewish." And, "Okay. Uh, what's your position on, you know, what's happening in Gaza?
Mo Husseini: What's your..." You know, like, it's like I'm making assumptions right off the bat that I wouldn't make uh, you know, Susie Smith walked into the room. And that, that's where it turns for me because I've been, I've been on the other side of that. I've been at the fucking dinner tables where I'm getting the looks and it's like, "Well, what do you think about Bin Laden and what's going on?" It's like, dude, I, like I, I got n- I have nothing to fucking do with Bin Laden. Like, this guy would, you know...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: [02:27:00] Yeah.
Mo Husseini: but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, I, I g- I get it. I gu- I guess where, where I'm trying to say is, like, I t- I think w- we're at risk. I, like, it, it is my assessment that the vast majority of Jewish institutions are fundamentally acting immoral right now because they are, they are not speaking out, and they are continuing to center the...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: At, at, at, at, you know, they're... At best, they have tepid, uh, sign of b- both sidesy, like, oh, maybe th- they'll... The, the most liberal of a synagogue will host some sort of Palestinian Is- J- Jewish-Israeli dialogue night, or they'll, you know, sh- But, like, the, the, uh... But the, the vast majority are not, are not speaking out in a way that feels like they are meeting the moment
Mo Husseini: I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: of [02:28:00] genocide in any substantive way.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and at worst, like, th- I've spoken about this before on the show, like, federations are hosting events with IDF soldiers,
Mo Husseini: look, I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: in-
Mo Husseini: get me wrong, like, I think, I think an like, like holding institutions to account is very different than holding individuals to account, right? Like, and, and I, and I make a
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But the individuals are a part of those institutions, and they are making decisions, and they are... Yeah
Mo Husseini: that many of those individuals are trying to change those institutions as well, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like I've dealt with, look, I- I've dealt with people engaging with, um, uh, you know, to, to, to, to use your language, with their liberal, progressive, you know, Zionist shul that is, that is still kind of like, uh, Jewish supremacy light. Um, you know what I mean? And, and these people want a way to
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: to change the conversation with their shuls and [02:29:00] within their shul and, and, and to bring a different perspective and all of those kinds of things.
Mo Husseini: And, and I honor those people, and I think those people are doing the work. And I think, look, much of that same work is happening in, in Palestinian culture, right? Like, um- Uh, like I, I, I think actually a, a salient example is BDS, Like, like, y- y- you know, I believe strongly in, in, uh, in, in boycotts. I, I believe strongly in, in, in the act of divestment, and I, and I believe strongly that, that Israel should be sanctioned. Uh, um, but I believe that that's true for any country that is acting in ways where we are trying to change the behavior of the country. It's not pointed at Israel. I honestly think, like, we should be boycotting, divesting, and sanctioning more countries. Like I, I, I don't like what E- Egypt is doing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
Mo Husseini: Like, well, you know, we, we do it to Russia with, uh, without a second thought, or [02:30:00] we do it to many other countries without a second thought. I think it is an, uh, uh, if we claim to be non-violent, I think those are the kinds of things that we should be doing, right? But even as somebody that supports, uh, boycotts, divestments, and sanctions, I have my issues with the organization.
Mo Husseini: And to be clear, my issues with the organization are minimal, right? They're about where they draw the line on certain organizations and certain types of engagements that are happening or, or not happening, right? And, um, that is a, that is a disagreement within the family that, that aligns with kind of a greater mission, but, but still fundamentally, like I can look at BDS and go like, like there are, there are problematic aspects to the ways that, uh, this is sometimes applied without negating kind of the, the bigger part of, of what I believe about that. Um, I think that's certainly true for many Jews involved in organizations. They're trying to figure out a way to kind of engage with their, uh, organization, with their, uh, religious [02:31:00] affiliation or whatever it may be, and to negotiate it towards a better place, if that makes sense. So once again, like I don't, like I don't, I don't, I don't think it's across...
Mo Husseini: Like I don't think it is a racist, um, a, a or, uh, or prejudicial thing to critique an organization, right? Like I think if a, a, a, a person in good faith, uh, wants to critique J Street, a person in good faith wants to critique, uh, NIF, in good faith wants to, uh, critique BDS, that's fair game, right? And, and, and f- and in fact, like I think it's absolutely okay to critique people once they have expressed those opinions, right? Like, like I'm not saying individuals are, uh, uh, immune from critique. What I'm saying is that individuals have the right to speak without being challenged before they speak.
Mo Husseini: That's all I'm getting at, right? [02:32:00] Like, it-- that's what I lived through, right? Like, I, I lived through the assumption that because my first name is Mohammed and my, uh, you know, my, my last name is Al-Hussaini, and I look like what I look like, and, uh, uh, I carry the passport that I carry, that, that, that I am in some way, uh, a terrorist, uh, someone who's trying to kill, you know, white people or Jews or hates American culture or whatever the hell it is set of assumptions were created after 9/11. Um, that's before I spoke.
Mo Husseini: That's before I said a fucking word. That's before I expressed a single opinion. You were just looking at me and making a set of decisions that were a function of an identity that I did not choose. I-- and, and to be clear, when I say did not choose, I'm not saying not proud of. plenty proud of it.
Mo Husseini: You're just approaching that identity in a way that [02:33:00] assumes a certain set of, of beliefs and political, uh, uh, um, uh, perspectives a-and approaches that, in my experience, aren't true. Like, I, y- y- I, I think, um I, I, I think it is, it is one thing to engage with reality. I think it is another thing to engage with identity, and that is the thing that I push back on.
Mo Husseini: Like, I don't think that, um, I don't think that Jewish people any more than Muslim people, any more than Black people, any more than, than gay people are responsible for making you feel okay giving them humanity and full respect. I think that should be given first. You can lose that, to be clear, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, like, uh, and that's my point. Like, I can engage... Like, I can be a, a... It is possible to be a perfectly awful and toxic Muslim person, [02:34:00] right? Like, I'm not saying they don't exist. Uh, I'm saying that the assumption that they are that before engaging w-with them to understand that they are that is what I have a problem with, right?
Mo Husseini: The assumption that, that someone
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: understand. Yeah
Mo Husseini: you know, Smotrich, uh, style z- supremacy Zionist i-is where I draw the line. Like, I'm-- Like, you can tell me that that's what you believe. Great. Now I've got a fucking problem with you, but that problem is not a function of the fact of your, uh, Hebrew name or, or your passport Does that, does that distinction
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: you? You, you
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: it do- it does.
Mo Husseini: make sure like that it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, no, it, it does make sense, and I don't think we have a fundamental disagreement. I think, I think maybe just a few things I'm noticing is I think you might have more patience than me,
Mo Husseini: I'm just older, man
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: in general. And you, you think so? You think that's what it is?
Mo Husseini: uh, I, I [02:35:00] think, I do think that, that, that that's what it is on some level. I th- I think that there's a reason that, that, that peace tends to be negotiated by older people, that's not because, uh, older people are better. It, it's, it, it's in fact probably the opposite. Uh, older people are usually worse, um, because you have the idealism burned out of you and, and you begin to realize that, I think that, that, that time is finite that, um, it's, uh, i- it, it's important to kind of engage with things, uh, with a slightly more pragmatic and slightly less idealistic lens. And that's not to say that you give up on your beliefs. You just adjust yourself to the realities of the world a little bit differently. And, and I don't say that dismissively. Like I, I, I wish that that wasn't true on some level
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I think you're pr- you're probably right, and I hate that,
Mo Husseini: You know, uh, there's a [02:36:00] really
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: what, it means, what, what that means is that you, like, maybe aren't as... Like, j- justice is not as complete as it could be
Mo Husseini: I think that that's always true throughout the world and, and not just on this issue. I, I think that, um, I, I think that people compromise all the time in order to move forward and, and sometimes those compromises are good, and sometimes those compromises are fucking terrible. Um, I, I think the United States is a great example of a fucking terrible compromise.
Mo Husseini: Um, I think, um, I think after the Civil War This nation made a decision gloss over, um, the horrors of, uh, enslavement, [02:37:00] um, and, uh, rehabilitate the South um, political reasons that had nothing to do with morals or ethics. And, uh, we're paying that price today. I think that, that, that, that in a lot of ways, what we are dealing with in the United States is a, is a shitty compromise about political unity over justice, right?
Mo Husseini: And, and I, um, I tend to prefer compromises that center justice because I think that justice is the longer term, uh, stable, uh, lighthouse to guide yourself by. I think that, for all its failures, and there are many failures that South Africans will tell you about, uh, you know, the peace and, uh, peace and reconciliation, uh, approach that was taken in South Africa was, um, was good. You [02:38:00] know, I think it was a, it, it was a solution that looked at pragmatic political realities on the ground and what could and could not be done and centered justice for victims, right? Acknowledgement and confession punishment. And, and many people did not like that and still don't like that and, and still feel that, uh, you know, some folks got away scot-free and never paid for their sins.
Mo Husseini: But I think in the long term, that's the kind of, compromise that makes sense. think the compromise that America made, uh, after the Civil War, especially rolling back reconstruction and, and all of those things is, is a sin we are still living with and, and still paying the price of
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, I think we should, we should, um, start to wrap up, and this has been so lovely. But o- one, one pa- one last question if we could just... And, and I apologize 'cause we didn't, we [02:39:00] didn't discuss your movie,
Mo Husseini: we don't have to discuss the movie.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: which I,
Mo Husseini: it's a year and a half old
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But, but, but, well, I'll just, I'll just say, you know, uh, but, like, in the spirit of everything we're talking about, what is the path forward?
Mo Husseini: Look, The Path Forward was really, uh, uh, it was a movie made in the moment, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: N- oh, no, no, actually, I mean, sorry. I mean that in a more existential,
Mo Husseini: Yeah, yeah. What
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: what it, like not...
Mo Husseini: look, I, I, I think the, the grand tragedy of, of the conversation between, um, Israelis and Palestinians is, um There's almost a, uh, Pavlovian response And that, uh, Pavlovian response is [02:40:00] negation, right? And, and when I talk about the fact that I can't even type the sentence, "I am Palestinian," without immediately getting, you know, uh, comments or questions or, "Yeah, well, that didn't exist," or, "Yasser Arafat invented that in 1967 with the KGB," or whatever.
Mo Husseini: Like, like, that is, That is not an unusual reaction, right? Like, I wish I could say it was. Like, it has certainly become less of an unusual reaction over the past, uh, uh, three or four years. But, um, it has not, uh, historically in my life, uh, w- with the exception of, uh, the recent past, been an unusual reaction. I think that that-- w- what that does is it, it, it in Palestinians similar responses. And, and so, um, you know, when, [02:41:00] um When Jewish people talk about a spiritual connection to the land, there's, uh, there's an, an equivalent kind of pro-Palestinian response that is like, well, you know, the... I mean, I, I, I, um, that, that attempts to negate, uh, Jewish connection or Jewish feelings or a sense of Jewish spirituality or whatever.
Mo Husseini: And, and to go back to a question that you asked me all the way at the beginning of this conversation, um, that's about kind of defining another person's identity for them. Like, I think that, that it's created kind of a toxic, uh, cycle between the people where, um, people feel like the need to make their point is, um, is built on a foundation of negating [02:42:00] the other And, um, engaging in that way a sure recipe for not getting anything done, for never moving.
Mo Husseini: If, if we start from you're not real, which at its essence is, is what people say to each other, um, we're never gonna move forward. And so when you ask me what the path forward is, it's-- to me, it's an acknowledgement. And, and I think that, that, that there's acknowledgements that have to happen that a-about, the, um We may not agree, but we need to at least see each other, right?
Mo Husseini: Like I, I, I don't have to, I don't have to agree with your definition of Zionism, right? I, I don't have [02:43:00] to with, uh, or you don't have to agree with my definition of Palestinian national identity or, or whether that exists or doesn't exist or whatever. All you have to agree with is that it exists for me Right? And, uh, because to me, moving forward is about ceasing the process of attempting to negate each other and figuring out how we can live together. by live together, I mean as equals. I mean as people equally privileged on the land. I, I, I mean as people who are, uh, um, equally protected under the law without distinction based on, uh, anything else. the structures of that, like I don't give a shit what that looks like. It doesn't, it doesn't matter to me if those things are true. Um,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: what [02:44:00] Like how The, the, the question that, that I struggle with, and, and, and I don't have the answer to this, Ezra, like just to be abundantly clear, like I, I, I don't have the answers to a lot of things. I just have, uh, opinions. H-how do we get to a place where we live boring lives? That, that's it, right? Like, the, the, the, the vast majority of people live boring lives. And, and I say that not as a judgment, right? Like, that's a good thing,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. I get it. Yeah.
Mo Husseini: it's like me as a, uh, uh, as a person that does not like the current American regime is like, you know, joking with my friends of like, "Dude, I would love to just wake up and not check the fucking news," because I know the president is boring and he's, you [02:45:00] know,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: great,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: some new economic
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: Like, whatever, I don't care, right? Like, that's what I mean. Like, how do we get to a place of boredom between Israelis and Palestinians? And, and, and my, um, my fundamental position is that we will never get to a place of boredom between Israelis and Palestinians until Israelis and Palestinians figure out how to live next to each other as equals, not as, not as
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: state and vassal state, not as we're in charge and you do what we tell you on, on, on either side, where, where people feel like they are respected and human and whole on the land. And, um, I don't know how we get there by starting from a place of negation I do know how we get there by starting from a place of like, um, [02:46:00] I guess the politest way to put it is like let's agree to disagree. Like y-y-you continue to have your Zionist perspective, and I'll continue to have my Palestinian, you know, nationalist perspective.
Mo Husseini: But as long as we agree that those things are not controlling beliefs, then we can move forward, right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: Does that answer your question?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It, it does answer my question. I, I, I, I share your vision, I think to a large extent. I think, uh, I, I think there's still some tension for me in the way you're framing it, which I don't think we need to, uh, resolve. I don't think we're going to or need to resolve in the rest of this conversation. But I, you know, I would love to stay in to touch and have more conversations with you 'cause I really enjoy it.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Um, but I'll just name, I'll just name the tension 'cause, 'cause I think it's a legitimate tension. I, I think it's, it's, it's a tension that I [02:47:00] experience and I, I'm still navigating in my own conversations with people. 'Cause I agree with you that starting from negation will be ultimately ineffective.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, where some tension creeps in is how to negate-- how to not automatically negate someone or negate their identity or their, how they think about themselves or how they define certain terms in their lives without Giving credence to narratives that are not fully historically legitimate or weighting things in ways that add more weight than perhaps most, you know, a, a, a lot of people might feel like is, [02:48:00] is necessary.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Um, so I feel like that is the tension. I- does that make sense?
Mo Husseini: I guess I'll put it this way. Like I It's important to me to understand whether the belief is controlling or just a belief
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What do you mean by controlling?
Mo Husseini: So I think everybody is racist Right. And, and what I mean by that i- is very specific, once again, I'm being a writer guy and, and, and like super nuanced, is, uh, I, I think we're all afraid of people that are different from us Right. But [02:49:00] That's a, uh, for lack of a better description, that's a, that's a, an evolutionary survival thing, right? Like, uh, uh, animals that are wary survive longer, right? Like, like, like, you know, like, like brave animals
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah, that makes sense.
Mo Husseini: right? Like, you know?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah,
Mo Husseini: um, uh, there's a great, um, there's a great example of this of, uh, uh, uh, that, that my mentor once pointed out to me.
Mo Husseini: Like I, I, I do a lot of work in the kind of design of experiences, and he goes like, "Okay, I'm gonna give you a test. Um, go to a sports bar and don't look at the screens." Because you can't do it. And the reason you can't do it is not that you're dumb or you're really into sports or whatever. Um, we [02:50:00] have evolved as, as humans to notice difference and to notice motion. So when you're in a static field where something is moving off in the corner, i.e., the TV screen, your eye will be drawn to it, right? Like, you are drawn to difference. It's the reason camouflage works, right? Like, like when things blend in, we don't notice them. When things stick out, stick out, we do notice them. there's a lot of these things that are just innate. They're, they're not a function of anything except a, a, a, an evolutionary, uh, um, thing that has been kind of bred into us by just surviving To me, the difference is not whether you see difference, right? Like, it, it, it's why I'm so offended when people say, "Well, I don't see color." Of course you fucking see color. Like, don't be ridiculous. Like, of
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: yeah
Mo Husseini: you see color.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: The question isn't
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: color, it's what you do with that perception Right? [02:51:00] So to me, that, that's what I mean by is it a belief or is it a controlling belief, right? So if you come to me and, and you say like, "Hey, uh, uh Uh, I believe Muslims are the greatest people ever, and blah. Like, you know, you, you, you, you, you spout some version of a, a religious sho- uh, chauvinism that centers Islam and, uh, Islam as the, the, the one true path and all this other stuff, and, and you lay that all out, and I go, "Great." My next question is, is mentally, not what I'm asking you, right? Is, is to understand whether that belief of yours is a belief or a controlling belief. Do you then go to the next step, which is to say, "And I... And therefore I..." As opposed to that but, and you know, uh, when we were talking earlier. The pivot at the end of that statement, um, is it, "And therefore I choose to live my [02:52:00] life a certain way," or is it, "And therefore I believe that I have the right to tell everybody how to live their lives?" Right? Then it becomes a controlling belief as opposed to a, a just a belief. Um, and, and that's where like, to me, uh, don't need to agree. Like, if, if this is your definition of Zionism for you, fantastic. Like, I- it doesn't affect my life one way or another. What affects my life is the controlling aspect of that.
Mo Husseini: What do you think that that means beyond that? Does your vision of Zionism that you should be privileged over others on the land? And like, yeah, we fucking fundamentally disagree. Like, we're not going to, uh, we're not going to agree to disagree on this one, right? Like, like you are now, um, you are now moving from the idea of, uh, well, Islam is the one true faith and is the right [02:53:00] faith for me, to the idea of like Islam is the one true faith, and anyone who doesn't believe this is subhuman and, and should be killed or whatever.
Mo Husseini: I, I don't see a difference in, in terms of any kind of supremacy that's expressed. Um, and that's, that's what I mean about, uh- Acknowledging, right? Like, I think if people have, uh, philosophical or political or religious, uh, perspectives that differ from mine, we're fine. Like I-- we don't have a problem. We don't have a problem until you make your position my problem, right?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Mm-hmm.
Mo Husseini: Um, it's that, uh, i-it's that statement, you know, uh, uh, you're free to swing... Yeah, your right to, uh, your right to swing your fist ends at the tip of my nose, right? Like, do whatever the fuck you want, but the second it starts to affect me, we've got a problem. And that's where, you know, that's where I have a problem with [02:54:00] conversations about a-an, an, uh, a, a Jewish connection to the land, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, okay, great. Like I, I don't have a problem with you having a connection to the land. I have a problem with is you saying that your connection to the land supersedes and negates my connection to the land. When you tell me that, that, that, that your connection to the land is more important than the fact that, you know, I, I can go to Jerusalem and, and walk the line of my, uh, ancestors' graves, you know, back through the centuries i-in Jerusalem.
Mo Husseini: Like it's not a, a... And that-that's
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: That's like, that's like a real thing that, that, that, that, that I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah.
Mo Husseini: And for you to tell me that your connection to the land somehow says that, oh, we don't belong here, [02:55:00] that this land that has, held the bodies of my ancestors for centuries, for millennia is, is, is some-- fake, then now we've got a problem. And I think that that's what I mean by the difference between a belief and a controlling belief. Does that make sense?
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It does make sense. And just I'm, I'm, I'm realizing just in case I wasn't clear, because I, I, I, I think it's, it's so clear in my mind that I, I'm just, for you or for anyone listening, when I talk about unresolved tension, I'm, I'm only thinking of it in the context of Jewish claim. I'm actually not at all questioning the Palestinian legitimacy or connection to the land in any way in e- either, in...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Like, so I, I'm, I'm really just thinking of it in the context of, like, [02:56:00] the most generous interpretation of what someone might say progressive Zionism, which I still
Mo Husseini: Sure
Mo Husseini: Yeah, yeah.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: have unresolved tension, which I... So I, I just wanna make that clear, like I'm, I'm not at all coming at it from
Mo Husseini: I think it
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the, the, the critique that you are more familiar with of, of somebody cl- um, questioning your Palestinian legitimacy
Mo Husseini: but this is my point. Like, I think that... Look, I think it's a specious...
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: And, and I have to pick, I have to go to pick up my son in two minutes, I should, I should say.
Mo Husseini: I,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah
Mo Husseini: a, bit of a specious argument when, when we engage in, uh, uh, in conversations particularly about connection to,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: What's, what's specious?
Mo Husseini: stupid, right? Like, like i-i-it, it's not a real argument.
Mo Husseini: It's kind of like you're making an argument to make an argument. Like, look, none of us are indigenous Like not, Like, uh, uh, uh, but, but
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: but there's people that,
Mo Husseini: let me
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: eh...
Mo Husseini: statement. right? like,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay, okay, okay,
Mo Husseini: it, it all depends on where you drop the pin, [02:57:00] right? Like if you, if you drop the pin, uh, uh, 300,000 years ago, we're hominids in the Greater Rift Valley, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and that's the only fucking place we exist, right? And, and then if you drop the pin in the, uh, you know, in the, uh, 20,000 years ago, uh, y- Neanderthals exist and what... Like it, it, it starts to get really stupid. And, and so my position on it is you have a connection to the land if you claim to have a connection to the land, right?
Mo Husseini: Like, and, and, and I mean that in the spirit... Like the, let me finish.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: But,
Mo Husseini: I mean that in a s- it,
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: okay, okay.
Mo Husseini: that
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Sorry,
Mo Husseini: sense, and I also mean that in the sense that it doesn't fucking mean anything. And I don't mean that in like to, to, once again, like to carry on with my like nerdy word guy thing.
Mo Husseini: When I say it doesn't mean anything, I mean it's not dispositive. Like, like you claiming that you have a connection to a land that someone else has lived on for 2,000 years is like all good and well. You wanna come and live here too? Great. [02:58:00] Come and live here. But don't come and live here and kick me out of my home
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Right. And, and I guess what I was just gonna say is I do think there is a difference between Mohammed El-Kurd's family
Mo Husseini: percent.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: the Brooklyn Jewish settlers that moved into house,
Mo Husseini: A thousand
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: of their hou- home and stayed there. Yeah. Um, we should really wrap this up,
Mo Husseini: Go pick up your son. If you wanna do
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: 'cause yeah, but,
Mo Husseini: let, uh, let me know anytime. It's, it's been a fucking
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Okay.
Mo Husseini: to you, Ezra. Like, and
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: It's, been so great, and I, yeah,
Mo Husseini: I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I've, so enjoyed,
Mo Husseini: you. Like, uh
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: No, no, no, no. I, I think you're awesome. Um, I would love to continue. I, I really enjoyed speaking with you, and I look forward to doing it more, um, you know, offline or whatever.
Mo Husseini: I I
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: like
Mo Husseini: would
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: so glad to have met you and connected with you.
Mo Husseini: want. Just, just like say the word.
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Great
Mo Husseini: let me know when you're gonna post this, and I'll push it as [02:59:00] much as I can
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: Yeah. Thank you, Mo. Um,
Mo Husseini: I need to do
Ezra Lipp - The Thin Veil: I'm gonna stop re- so let me check. Let me just see. I'm gonna stop recording. It usually
