From caged Tigers...to hunter killers - a conversation with Barry Jones

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Well, first podcast of twenty twenty six and really looking
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up in a conversation because I'm really curious about this conversation.
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I'm joined by Barry Jones. Barry, welcome, Hi, how a
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you going. I'm good And judging by his initial hello,
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you would you'd understand that he's based in Australia but
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working in the field of ice hockey, which is not
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necessarily something that you associate with Australia particularly. But anyway, Barry,
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tell me your story, take me on the journey, because
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I'm curious and I know the audience will be.
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Yeah.
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Look, hockey has been a passion of mine since since
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I was a child of sort of bird and fourteen
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years of age started playing the game. I had a
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fairly good experience with the culture and the connection and
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sort of wanted to put something back, so sort of
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nineteen twenty became a sort of a hockey coach. I
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guess per se looking after I guess grassroots and things
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like that, trying to I guess pass on the information
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that the you know that the I guess the environment
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gave me at the time, which was which was good,
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And that sort of went through till about thirty years
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of age where I sort of I guess, you know,
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you have as.
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You get older and older, you have multiple versions of yourself.
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And so I sort of drifted away from the sport
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then and sort of started looking after people with disabilities.
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So that was something that I thought might be the
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next phase for me.
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So and I spent you know, three or four years
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working with people with disabilities and then sort of drifted off,
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got a family, spent a bit of time looking after
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the family, and sort of came back into the sport
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around twenty eighteen. So twenty eighteen, So it turned up
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I've done a little bit of coaching environmentally, so looking
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at differ in sports and seeing how they interacted and
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looked at how I guess I got this idea that
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people were different from when I worked with people with disabilities.
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It was one of those things that you.
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Sort of, you know, there's no Cookie Coulor style scenario
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for every person is slightly different. And it sort of
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got me on this journey of understanding where everyone is
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different and everyone sort of has different expectations and different needs.
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So I sort of came back into the coaching field
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at twenty eighteen and then sort of it just branched
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off from there.
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And so in terms of what you're doing now, what's
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the primary role.
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Many lives because hockey doesn't really pay the bills.
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At this stage coming out of you know where we
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are right now, sort of we have our season runs.
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Sort of your summer season would be our winter season.
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So we're in our summer season phase. So in our
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summer season phase, we have sort of developmental stuff, sort
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of what we call the travel.
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Teams generally play around this time.
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So part of the Inferno, which is a female travel team,
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So those things are happening at this stage. Generally, when
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the winter season comes around for us, that's when we
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start looking at sort of grassroots and things like that, right.
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And when you talk about travel, So this is obviously
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I'm very familiar with the ice hockey world in the
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US and the sports world in the US, where you
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have what they call WREC teams and travel teams. Wreck
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teams tend to play locally within cities or wherever it
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might be. Travel teams are traveling into state, is that right?
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Or within the state.
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Yeah, No, that's correct, that's corrector we're not an overly
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I mean, it's ice hockey in Australia. So I mean
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when you put those two together, like you thought, wow,
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that's intriguing. There's around sort of four and a half
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fight thousand people playing the sport in the country. We
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have eighteen to twenty rinks depending on what day it is,
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so that sort of gives you an idea of where
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we are with that travel.
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Teams are generally teams.
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That play you know, you might call it like a
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semi professional, but in the women's program it's still paid
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by the women, so it could be sort of it's
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called semi professional amateur program. And then in the men's
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you have a sort of a league which is more
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closer to us, sort of a semi professional program, and
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they would play in each of the states throughout sort
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of over a four to six month period and then
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have sort of a grand final towards sort of February March.
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And is the competition done on a kind of do
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you like play a certain number of matches home and
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or way in like a league or is it more
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conference based or how do you structure it?
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Yeah, it's a good question.
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So generally there's We've got a new team that started
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up this year, which is the Ducks, so Melbourne Ducks.
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So that sort of gave us enough teams to have
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sort of twenty games. We have two games a weekend,
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one Saturday, one Sunday, so we've got ten rounds.
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Twenty games.
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Gives us the ability to be able to sort of
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play sort of four at home and sort of six away.
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So that's four rounds at home, six six rounds away.
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So yeah, so.
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It's half the season runs prior to Christmas. In the
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second half runs straight after Christmas. So first you've got
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games coming back in January.
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And so you'll travel I'm really I don't know why
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I'm interested in the logistic, but now.
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A plane this.
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Little mud island you see, So you know, we just like, yeah,
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we live in a world where if you've got to
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travel more than nineteen minutes to a game is too far, right,
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So anyway, it's just.
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So the airport's forty five from US.
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Okay, So you would travel out what on the Friday,
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play two games, travel back, and then travel back on
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the Sunday night or Monday.
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Or well you would think so, you would think. So
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we went to.
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So we flew out at five a m Saturday morning,
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got into got into Melbourne at some stupid o'clock, staggered
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around for an hour and a half two hours, ate
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a lot of food, and then the girls run.
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The ice by five, so that would have been by three.
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That would have been by two o'clock Perth time, because
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we had time zone differences. Played a game, slept, played
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the next game back on the plane, and landed Sunday
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night at midnight.
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Back in at Perth. So it was it was rough.
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And the two games you play, is that against the
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same team or are you playing two teams in Melbourne?
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No, that's good. So yeah, so we play.
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So we'll fly in the Melbourne play the Melbourne team,
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We'll fly in the Brisbane played the Brisbane team.
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We'll fly into you know. So that's sort of how
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that works.
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We sort of fly into the into the state, play
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those that team twice sort of one Saturday, one Sunday,
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and then basically move forward from there and then come
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home and then train and then go back out and
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do it again.
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Have you noticed any sort of correlation in terms of results, like,
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for example, is your first game not that good a
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performance and then your second game is better because you've
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had a bit of time to get some sleep and
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rest and all that sort of stuff for is it
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is it just a complete missmash Okay?
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So I'm about a guy. I love data.
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So historically the twenty two, twenty three, twenty three, twenty four,
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when I wasn't involved with the team, thirty seven percent
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of the time that we'd win on a Sunday, sixty
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eight percent of the time that we'd win on a Saturday.
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Wow.
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So yeah, So that just meant that they ran pretty
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hard on the Saturday, and then by the time they
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got to the Sunday, the world was catching up and
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we play sort of so the girls didn't get the
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opportunity to sort of, I guess, experience.
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That game the way it should be played.
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So and one of the failings of the whole process
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is that finals are played on a Sunday. So if
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you're only winning Sundays thirty seven percent of the time,
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it's going to be you're going to struggle to win finals.
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So that was part of the identity I changed. I
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wanted to make sure that we played as well or
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if not better, on the Sunday than we did on
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the Saturday, because it's.
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Important long term, it's important.
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So from a conditioning perspective, from the way that we trained,
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From an identity perspective, how many lines we played, how
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we treated those lines, did we run anymore or any less?
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So from a tactical sort of diagnostic effect, we had
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to make sure that there was still enough fuel in
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the tank for Sundays.
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So what does the data give? What is the data
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giving you now? Then in terms of the results.
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So we played ten games, five rounds. So if I
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was allowed to remove the officials out of this because
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in one game the officials took goals off us because
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they didn't see them go in.
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Yes, exactly.
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We have video footage because it's all broadcast on Facebook
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and all those things, and you can see the goals going.
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It's just that we're not allowed to use that as
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a sort of there's no video review in Australian ice sucking.
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So at this stage, if I didn't include the officials
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taking games from us, we've done all ten games, we
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won all ten games. At this stage we're down to
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eight games. If I include the officials taking the goals
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from us.
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Interesting, yeah, So of course when you think of ice hockey,
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you either think we've obviously got the winter Olympics coming
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up where you most people will probably get there every
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four year diet of ice hockey. Probably somebody ever watch it.
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But then you've also got like the NHL, which is
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what other people might watch, where of course when the
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put crosses the line, a light goes off. Right, you
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don't have that technology, is that right?
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We haven't had the human technology to even point at
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it and say it was a goal. It's all guests work.
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I'm sure out there.
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A pound for every time I spoke to a coach
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and eventually drifted into officiating. It would be great, you
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know what.
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The reality is that it is part of the game,
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and part of part of my coaching identity is that
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those things don't FaZe me on the bench.
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I'm not a yellow and a screamer.
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It happens. I always had a belief that if they
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didn't see it, they didn't see it. I'm sure they weren't.
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You know, Oh, look, the goal is the puckers going
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down towards and then I'm going to look the other way.
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I'm sure that doesn't happen. So it just is what
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it is. So, you know, statistically, I can I can
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track those numbers without it happened to be sort of
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public knowledge where it comes to handy games with one
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and those types of things. It just tells me, what,
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whether I need to modify the environment for the games,
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whether I need to change the style of coaching that
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we're doing, whether I need to look at how much
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pressure I'm included in the in the session. So just
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it's it's more about the data for that, more and
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more than understanding that waving the flag and stayed with
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one in ten games.
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But you know, nonetheless you use that as an illustration
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to say that without those aberrations in terms of you know,
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you would have had one hundred percent record fundamentally correct correct.
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And it just just before we dive into the ins
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and outs of methodology and all those sorts of things,
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did you do did you change anything in terms of
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beyond the identity side of things and the kind of
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mentality and the focus, did you do anything else in
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terms of match preparedness that helped with bringing about that
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change of outcome. Yeah.
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So the team's quite a traditional based team, and their
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coaching staff in the prior have been very based, very
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coach sort of centered, very traditional sort of you know,
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the ownership is very much about the coach, and I'm
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very much a learner centered type coach. So one of
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the things I wrote a one of the things that
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were lacking was any type of real identity from a
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from a coaching perspective. So the first thing I did
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was sort of, you know, document what I wanted to do.
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I always believe that you should document what you're going
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to do, and it gives you a fairly good sort
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of map on whether you're tracking your you know, whether
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you're tracking those things. So there was a psychological safety,
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there was the identity, there was our the way I
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was going to coach that, which was going to be
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sort of an ecological dynamics, sort of a nonlinear approach.
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I was going to use themes as opposed to ice
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Hockey's very much a periodizational program where you know, you
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do this on a Tuesday, you do that on a Wednesday,
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you do this.
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On a Thursday. And it always has been.
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I'm lucky because I'm USA Hockey trained, and so they
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tend to shift towards more of an ecological approach. And
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I've watched you were on the USA webinars a few times,
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so you understand what I'm sort of talking with that.
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But I mean, if you do the research that it
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does feel that they've just sort of stolen the Golden rule,
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which was a UK thing which I saw a few
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years ago coming out of I think it was grass
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hockey a golden all because it's pretty much it's pretty
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much the same.
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I had a chuckle when I saw it.
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Sort of gave me the understanding of how big this
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process is.
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The golden thread.
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Is that what it is? Yes, Yes, the thread?
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Yes, and yeah, they they openly admit that they directly
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just they didn't. I don't think they necessarily got it
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from me, or it may be that I pointed them
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in its direction, but I know that Zach, who works
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in their coaching departments, stumbled across it somewhere and was like, oh,
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well this sounds pretty cool for us. Yeah, so and
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just yeah, yeah, just just for the audience, just to
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sort of help them know what I'm talking about. It's
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basically five kind of core principles of your session, which actually,
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for a period of time was a central point of
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coach education as well. Where things should be fun, they
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should look something like the game. There should be lots
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of goes, lots of touches. You should should be some
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decision making, and what's the fifth one? I always forget
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there's always a fifth one. Yeah, anyway, it'll come by
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to me later on. I'll probably say it in the
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middle of the next session. But yeah, so they're the
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sort of broad framework of how you would construct a session. Okay,
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so you adopted the golden thread and you brought that
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into these ideas as well.
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Yeah, well I think that's where I started. You know,
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the USA program is really good. I guess I was
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shopping for a better way sort of back in sort
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of twenty and nineteen twenty twenty. It was one of
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those things I thought to myself, you know, there must
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be a better way than the traditional way. And you know,
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this may sound this may sound odd, but COVID came
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through and created the digital world, and USA Hockey went
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completely digital and gave me an opportunity to be able
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to jump online and actually use their I guess the
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power of the digital at all their webinars and get
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involved with the sort of their coach programs and everything else.
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But I did. I did shop it around.
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I looked at the European programs, I looked at Canadian
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programs because I had the ability to.
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So I was lucky.
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I wasn't locked to anything because the fact is that,
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you know, I can choose whichever one I wanted to,
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And I went to the USA program, got it. I
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felt it fitted me better from an ecological perspective. I
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felt that some of the decisions they were making was
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more about the athlete than it was about the coach.
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So and and I've done I've done the Canadian program,
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I've done the Australian program, I've done the USA program,
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and I sort of, I guess I felt I felt
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comfortable and at home in the USA program.
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Had you had you already adopted a more ecological approach
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prior to engaging within the USA Hockey program or was
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it the USA Hockey program that kind of introduced you
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to ecological principles?
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No, I think that's a good I think that I
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was already sort of there, but I just didn't know
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what it was called. I just didn't know that it
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existed that way. I guess. Look, one of those things
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when you work with people with disabilities is that you
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can't just have the one solution. You know, and only
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having the one solution means that everyone else misses out
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by the one person that fits that solution. So that
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was one of the things that I felt twenty twenty,
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I sort of stepped up and helped out with a
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thing called sled hockey, so it's it's ice.
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Hockey for people who sort of it's sort of group
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of disabilities.
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And that was one of the biggest changes I felt,
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was seeing that the drills that we were running didn't
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make sense, and it didn't it didn't really give the
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practitioner that person that the learned and actually ability to
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be able to do that because it was just the
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one solution for everything. So that sort of made me
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think about changing and I changed it, and then all
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of a sudden, looking at the USA program, it made
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more sense that I should be thinking more about the
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individual in the team as opposed to one solution for all.
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Yeah, so this is interesting because you're I don't know
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that you're one of a number of people I've spoken to,
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either through this podcast or separately who has cited there
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were within adapted physical activity or disability sport as part
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of at least part of the reason why they have
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adopted a more learner or athlete centered approach because the
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recognition being that when you're greeted by an array of
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people with a broad differentiation in terms of their not
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only physical but sometimes intellectual sometimes you know, emotional responses,
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they you have to adopt the more individualized approach. You
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therefore can't use very coach centered, individualize my way or
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the highway types approaches because those athletes can't they can't
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respond to it. It's really counter productive and as a
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result of that, the search for alternative approaches emerges. It's
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interesting actually that the disability community. There's a there's a
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course run by the Major Disability Federation over here called
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Activity Alliance, and it's called Inclusive Activity Program and that
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course actually has constraints that approach baked into it. Without
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using the term constraints let approach.
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They just talk about the.
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Different constraints of space, task equipment, and people as you're
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sort of way of creating adaptability to meet the needs
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of a range of different audiences. And it strikes me
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that when you see that that's good for people with disabilities,
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you then begin to see, oh, actually, I've got a
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group of able bodied individuals here, but they're all different,
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they all have different capabilities and therefore I should treat
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them individually. So it's just a really interesting kind of
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observation that leads people in that direction.
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Yeah, I just I mean, I I from the you
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see the extremes a lot more. I think in a
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disability space, I had one young man with cerebral palsy
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and I had a young woman with one leg and blind.
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How do I how do.
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I give them the same solution, you know, so that
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they both have to solve problems differently. So where when
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I think when you look at say a thirteen U
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ice hockey team, you know generally, you know, if you
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look at that UNI asad, So we've got fifteen children
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in that team, that's thirteen years of age, probably only
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ten or fifteen percent of them are going through puberty,
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You're probably thinking yourself, they're all very similar, so you
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think that they're the same. I think the biggest change
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for me was understanding that the ecological dynamics is a language,
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and it's.
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The language that people struggle with that.
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It's that you know, you can give someone an instruction,
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you can give someone a problem to solve, but they
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don't understand the language.
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And I don't mean the ice hockey language or don't mean.
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This, it's just the way that they perceive the expectation
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of that.
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And I think that's one of those things that.
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You if you the problem as a coach you need
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to solve is to make sure everyone understands the problem
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they're trying to solve and then allow them to solve
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it their own way. And I think I think that's
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where coaches tend to struggle with that, with that understanding
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of sort of ecological dynamics and the traditional because traditional
399
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is so much easier, right, you know, you can go
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out there, you can spend ten minutes on a session,
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you know what you want to nail. I'm going to
402
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do passing today. We go out there, We're going to
403
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do some passing and make four drills, do some passing,
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go arounds on cons. All of a sudden, you know,
405
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everything looks perfect, and then we can move on. But
406
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you know that that never represented towards the game.
407
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Yeah, And like you say, you know, the individuals themselves,
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they have to come at their activity in their own
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way based on their own capabilities and being cognizant of
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those capabilities and allowing them to come and solve the
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problems themselves. You know, that's the only solution you have,
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not least of which you hardly because you know you
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don't have the lived experience that they have. So for
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you to come and say, I think you should do
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it this way without really without having any understanding of
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the way, you know, the way that their capabilities limit them,
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would be a terrible.
418
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Thing to do, right, I agree, And I think a
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lot of the time that I would and I guess
420
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this was that time where sort of the light bulb
421
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went on, and it was that I would say that
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this is what I'd like to do, but I don't
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know how you would solve this. So let's work together
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to see how you would solve this. Because I don't
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have the lived experiences. I'm not bound to a wheelchair,
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I'm not bound to the constraints that they have, so
427
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I don't know how to manipulate the constraints that they
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have because I don't have them. I can manipulate the
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constraints I have. I have legs, I have arms, I
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can stand. I mean, I can manipulate those in a
431
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sort of movement solution. But how do they do that?
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So it was that thing, I think that's where it
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started to become more an understanding about the learner. Okay, well,
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how would you solve this problem? And then we would
435
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spend time solving that problem and both of us, myself
436
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and the athlete would then learn from that. And that
437
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was That was quite an experience because you start to
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understand how somebody lives in the world and some of
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the constraints they have to live with and how they think.
440
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And I felt sometimes I was there to support them
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in the decisions they were making more than coaching.
442
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And then I realized that is coaching.
443
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It's interesting, you wouldn't be the first person who said
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that or as referred to the more individualized way of
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coaching as not coaching. So I'm just interested oversely do
446
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a lot of work with you as a hockey and
447
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still do. And I've been working with their coach development
448
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team to support their coach developers who then run those
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clinics what they call LINUX, which are the online things.
450
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I'm curious and then the digital experience that they provide,
451
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you know, and how they do that and all those
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sorts of things really cool, but I'm curious. You know,
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you mentioned earlier on just Circling Back that you you
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kind of came at it and you felt like that
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was the the one that you were more at home with,
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And I'd be interested. Did you go through the full
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journey all the way through to say what they call
458
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level five or have you sort of gone You're still
459
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on that journey, developing and taking time.
460
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Yeah, I'd like to say that I was allowed to cheat,
461
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but I wasn't, so so I had to do the one.
462
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So I'm at this stage, I'm level three.
463
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We also on our Level three international as well, so
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the Australian I got to spend the week with Bob
465
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men singing.
466
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You would know.
467
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Bob very well.
468
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Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, lovely man.
469
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Once again, I got to spend a week with Bob
470
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in Melbourne on the ice Hockey Australia flew Bob over
471
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for the Level three so and it was good. I was.
472
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I was excited to meet Bob and funny enough because
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as you can imagine, seventy five thousand US coaches, there
474
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aren't that many Australians and Bob was excited to meet me,
475
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which was I guess a nice feeling at the same
476
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time as well. So yeah, so but yeah, so I
477
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get to spend that time, but I just felt that
478
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they answered a lot of questions that I had without
479
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me having to ask the questions.
480
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I know that sounds that may sound.
481
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You know, you have you have all this noise spinning around,
482
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you have all these questions, and then they they as
483
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they're moving through, you're seeing the answers appear, and you
484
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think that makes more sense.
485
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That makes sense. Oh that's why I was thinking this way.
486
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Okay, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. That's similar
487
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to me. The more I delved into the ecological world,
488
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the more the questions I had were answered by that
489
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what is essentially a kind of almost like diametrically opposed
490
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paradigm from the traditional approach or what you might call
491
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the sort of traditionally educated approach, the linear approach. So anyway,
492
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so where the brief exchange on LinkedIn, you reached out
493
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.440
to me and sold me a bit by his story.
494
00:27:29.480 --> 00:27:31.799
I just love to know a little bit more about
495
00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:35.079
kind of the journey you've been on. And before we
496
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:37.079
do that, one question I had from earlier on actually
497
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:41.200
is did you get appointed into the role with the
498
00:27:41.279 --> 00:27:45.039
it's with the inferno you work with now you're right, yeah,
499
00:27:45.079 --> 00:27:54.559
did you get sorry because of your open ecological thing
500
00:27:54.680 --> 00:27:56.720
or did they just find that that was you and
501
00:27:56.799 --> 00:27:58.759
oh right, this is now how it's working.
502
00:27:59.839 --> 00:28:01.279
I would like to say yes.
503
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:03.640
I would like to say yes that that's what they
504
00:28:03.680 --> 00:28:05.759
thought to themselves, Wow, this is fantastic. We have an
505
00:28:05.759 --> 00:28:10.599
ecological coach and we're going to run with this. I'd
506
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:21.039
like to say yes. Yeah, I'm a I guess I'm
507
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:28.000
a coach that's interested in people at their core. So
508
00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:35.079
the understanding of that meant that I care. I don't
509
00:28:35.119 --> 00:28:38.440
know that that's that's I know that's not birth shattering
510
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:41.480
for most coaches, because we we coach because we care.
511
00:28:42.599 --> 00:28:45.519
But I think that's sort of what they were maybe
512
00:28:45.599 --> 00:28:49.400
looking for at the time, someone that that was different.
513
00:28:49.559 --> 00:28:52.000
And I'm not saying the coaches they had prior didn't care,
514
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:54.480
because they did. But it's just a different version of that,
515
00:28:54.599 --> 00:28:58.200
right you know you if that version didn't work, they're
516
00:28:58.240 --> 00:29:00.839
looking for a different version that may what they need with.
517
00:29:02.880 --> 00:29:05.759
And did was it the sort of thing where you
518
00:29:05.799 --> 00:29:10.480
know the host is is sort of advertised and you
519
00:29:10.519 --> 00:29:13.200
apply for it or did they approach you because they
520
00:29:13.279 --> 00:29:15.880
knew of you and what you were about.
521
00:29:16.119 --> 00:29:21.400
No, it's always so Australia has a standard EOI, which
522
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:25.519
is our expression of interest. It keeps everyone honest. So
523
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.440
the EOI goes out and then they I guess they
524
00:29:29.480 --> 00:29:33.960
shortlist the applicants and then they had meetings with those applicants,
525
00:29:34.039 --> 00:29:37.039
and then I guess they decide from those meetings whether
526
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.720
that's a whether that's the direction that they want to
527
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:43.480
travel in a coaching environment, and you were in that.
528
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:48.000
I'm interested in coach recruitment actually because it's it's fascinating
529
00:29:48.039 --> 00:29:52.000
to see how people get roles. It's very different in
530
00:29:52.039 --> 00:29:55.799
different places. And in a lot of amateur sports it's
531
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.880
who's around you know, who can we get, you know,
532
00:29:58.960 --> 00:30:01.519
to lead the team. But this sounded like it was
533
00:30:01.519 --> 00:30:04.960
a much more deliberate approach, which is good to hear in.
534
00:30:05.240 --> 00:30:08.000
So when you were going through that recruitment process, what
535
00:30:08.119 --> 00:30:10.359
did that look like? I mean, were you asked to
536
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:13.000
sort of put forward your ideas and your philosophy. Did
537
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:15.839
you do a session, were you observed? How did it work?
538
00:30:17.359 --> 00:30:17.599
Yeah?
539
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:20.200
So there, I guess there was a questionnaire that I
540
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:25.640
had to fill in. It was I guess it was
541
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:27.839
a questionnaire that said no more than two pages, and
542
00:30:27.880 --> 00:30:29.680
I think mine might have hit nine or ten.
543
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:31.000
Pages, which was a bit of a chuckle.
544
00:30:33.319 --> 00:30:36.079
I thought, hey, you know, if if they if they
545
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:38.319
don't want me here because I spent I spent a
546
00:30:38.359 --> 00:30:40.319
little bit more time on it, then that's a decision
547
00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.839
they make. So I outlined my expectations for the year.
548
00:30:44.920 --> 00:30:49.759
I put down what I believe the team would would
549
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:50.359
need to do.
550
00:30:51.400 --> 00:30:53.279
I look at I looked at the statistic site it.
551
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:55.720
Once again, I'm a data guy, so I looked a
552
00:30:55.759 --> 00:30:58.279
lot of the data and had a look at the
553
00:30:58.319 --> 00:31:00.799
way that they played, and I could see the game
554
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:05.960
shifting here in Australia where we're starting to see a
555
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:12.000
very fast game, and Australia usually has you have I
556
00:31:12.039 --> 00:31:16.920
have this concept. It's called environmental sports. So the sport
557
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:20.799
resembles the environment that it's in. So if you're in
558
00:31:20.960 --> 00:31:23.000
Canada and you're playing lots and lots of ice hockey,
559
00:31:23.000 --> 00:31:25.680
the sport represents ice hockey as part of its representation.
560
00:31:25.720 --> 00:31:29.799
But we have things like AFL and basketball and cricket
561
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:32.359
and all these other sports and they all have influences
562
00:31:32.400 --> 00:31:34.920
in the way that we play sport here. So it's
563
00:31:35.000 --> 00:31:38.200
like the flavor of the state or the flavor of
564
00:31:38.200 --> 00:31:41.359
the country. In Melbourne, play hockey differently to Perth, Brisbane
565
00:31:41.400 --> 00:31:44.400
play pocket differently to Sydney, because it's sort of a
566
00:31:44.440 --> 00:31:47.079
cultural environment that changes the way the game looks.
567
00:31:47.759 --> 00:31:50.240
So when I went back and looked at a lot
568
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:51.799
of video, I.
569
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:54.240
Watched the twenty three twenty four, twenty four to twenty
570
00:31:54.279 --> 00:31:57.839
five season, went through all the games, splice them all
571
00:31:57.920 --> 00:32:01.039
up into I guess chunks that I I could I
572
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:04.880
could understand what was happening. And then part of the
573
00:32:04.920 --> 00:32:08.079
proposal that I put in was to change the way
574
00:32:08.119 --> 00:32:09.839
that they looked at the game, and that I guess
575
00:32:09.839 --> 00:32:11.680
that's sort of what they were looking for at the time.
576
00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:16.319
And how now and now you've really got my curiosity going,
577
00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:20.000
what patterns did you see? What? What? What was it
578
00:32:20.039 --> 00:32:25.079
that you saw? As so sorry to two questions. First question,
579
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:30.799
I had James Vaughan on the show a while back,
580
00:32:31.240 --> 00:32:37.119
and his research is really interesting because he studied what
581
00:32:37.200 --> 00:32:40.200
the what you might call the socio what you've referred
582
00:32:40.200 --> 00:32:46.279
to as environmental sports, the socio cultural constraints that influence
583
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:51.640
the way coaching and teams play. And his observation was
584
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:56.839
that it's actually over in Waikato at the moment. James
585
00:32:56.920 --> 00:33:04.440
Vaughan actually working with Will Roberts and James had worked
586
00:33:04.440 --> 00:33:11.960
in Scandinavia, the UK, Spain, Portugal, and he noticed and
587
00:33:12.079 --> 00:33:15.799
his research looked at how the cult, the dynamic culture
588
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:21.880
of those countries and also areas within those countries influenced
589
00:33:22.240 --> 00:33:26.799
how people saw games and therefore how coaching and what
590
00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:30.039
was prized within those games. So the observation was, for example,
591
00:33:30.119 --> 00:33:37.000
that in Spain, where you know, creativity and generalizing and
592
00:33:37.039 --> 00:33:39.920
paraphrasing obviously, but you know, creativity and flair were very
593
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:43.039
much prized that influenced how the game was coached. And
594
00:33:43.079 --> 00:33:47.720
then in Scandinavia, where it's much more what you might
595
00:33:47.759 --> 00:33:54.519
call egalitarian, more sort of I guess, social democratic type model,
596
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:59.559
they were very much looking for team dynamics, cohesion, collaboration,
597
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:02.920
you know, no stars, that kind of thing, whereas in
598
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:05.960
say the UK, it's much more industrialized and you've got
599
00:34:06.000 --> 00:34:10.119
aspects of remnants of muscular Christianity and this notion of
600
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:13.719
you know, we don't like creativity and flair, we prize
601
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:16.400
work and thick and all those sorts of things. So
602
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:19.800
I'm kind of curious from your perspective how you would
603
00:34:20.360 --> 00:34:25.480
describe almost like the Australian approach to sport and what
604
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:29.199
you then sort of adopt within your flow. I've got
605
00:34:29.199 --> 00:34:30.920
my own views as how I see Australian sport, but
606
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:32.679
I'd be interested to city yours.
607
00:34:35.719 --> 00:34:42.079
I like to think that that our sport is the
608
00:34:42.320 --> 00:34:46.360
reality is that I feel that and the coaching that
609
00:34:46.719 --> 00:34:49.239
that people receive shape the way that they play.
610
00:34:51.119 --> 00:34:56.000
And historically in Australia, if you.
611
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.960
Have an accent, you generally get coaching gigs over people
612
00:34:58.960 --> 00:35:00.159
who don't have accents.
613
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:04.159
So predominantly.
614
00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:08.840
You know, twenty five thirty years of coaches with accents
615
00:35:09.239 --> 00:35:11.400
who we got here twenty five years ago and twenty
616
00:35:11.519 --> 00:35:13.800
years ago and fifteen years ago, who were still very
617
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:17.320
traditional based coaching have sort of changed the way that
618
00:35:17.400 --> 00:35:22.480
the sport is played here. One of a lot of
619
00:35:22.760 --> 00:35:25.159
so going through all the data, lots of things that
620
00:35:25.199 --> 00:35:30.800
I could see was the Western Australia did quite well
621
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.360
for the number of players we have playing in the state.
622
00:35:36.119 --> 00:35:41.320
We do quite well in the National League. I think
623
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:44.440
we're probably third in numbers, but most of the time
624
00:35:44.559 --> 00:35:47.599
we might be hitting second and first and sometimes there,
625
00:35:47.760 --> 00:35:51.320
but we sort of sit in the higher numbers where
626
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.920
we don't have the high numbers of players so I
627
00:35:54.920 --> 00:35:57.679
guess the benefit of that is that lots of the
628
00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:01.159
same people get lots of the ice time, and they
629
00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.360
get lots of turnover, and there's lots of those things,
630
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:06.079
and lots of what I call coach touches where they
631
00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:08.239
get to speak to coaches, they get involved a lot more.
632
00:36:08.719 --> 00:36:11.239
So I think that helps not having lots and lots
633
00:36:11.239 --> 00:36:13.400
of people from that perspective. But what it doesn't do.
634
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:18.159
It doesn't help the long game. It helps the short
635
00:36:18.199 --> 00:36:20.840
game where you're thinking about today and tomorrow. That doesn't
636
00:36:20.840 --> 00:36:23.480
help the long game. And we're looking for athletes in
637
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:26.880
their nineteen, their twenties, their twenty five's, where we only
638
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:29.519
have three or four of those in each of the states,
639
00:36:29.519 --> 00:36:32.920
as opposed to know somewhere like the US and Canada
640
00:36:32.920 --> 00:36:37.800
where they have thousands in that age group. So that's
641
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.480
the thing I saw is very much an old based game,
642
00:36:41.679 --> 00:36:46.119
very traditional, the way they played very north south. The
643
00:36:46.199 --> 00:36:49.880
European game shifted towards more of an east west type game,
644
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:55.039
more the four roles, which is something that USA Hockey's
645
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:57.280
been sort of They don't push that until sort of
646
00:36:57.519 --> 00:37:01.440
a year year two and sort of more into year three,
647
00:37:01.480 --> 00:37:05.800
where you have instead of having sort of the old
648
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:08.840
technical term of F one, F two, F three, which
649
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.480
is forward one, forward two, forward three, we now have
650
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.360
sort of the puck carrier, the person who has the puck,
651
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:18.559
and then on his team who's supporting him. And then
652
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:20.719
you have who's the defender on the puck carrier, and
653
00:37:20.719 --> 00:37:23.000
then who's the defender off the puck carrier, so off
654
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:25.119
the puck. So they're the four roles and how they
655
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:27.639
transitioned through the game. And a lot of the time
656
00:37:28.599 --> 00:37:31.760
I wasn't seeing a lot of that. I was still
657
00:37:31.800 --> 00:37:35.639
seeing that that structured, rigid F one, F two, F three,
658
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:41.840
and then if that scenario didn't fit the environment at
659
00:37:41.880 --> 00:37:47.559
the time, a lot of teams struggled to, I guess,
660
00:37:47.719 --> 00:37:50.239
change and transition to what they needed to do. So
661
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:54.079
part of the fifty four page document that I wrote
662
00:37:54.119 --> 00:37:59.480
for for in once again always tend to Do More
663
00:37:59.519 --> 00:38:04.960
than less was identify these things so I understand how
664
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:07.719
their identity looked inside the four roles, what was the
665
00:38:08.960 --> 00:38:10.719
what were the themes we were going to run through
666
00:38:10.719 --> 00:38:14.800
trainings inside these four roles? How did how did we
667
00:38:14.840 --> 00:38:18.480
want to look what did the game look like for us?
668
00:38:18.519 --> 00:38:20.960
And how did we want to play around that game.
669
00:38:21.280 --> 00:38:25.360
So all these things were environmentally, you know, the psychological
670
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:27.679
understanding of what that looked like. What does it take
671
00:38:27.800 --> 00:38:30.360
to play at the level that we need to be
672
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:33.239
at to win this game, What does it take for
673
00:38:33.440 --> 00:38:37.719
us to understand our second effort? What type of pressure
674
00:38:37.760 --> 00:38:39.719
do we need to put on the puck and on
675
00:38:39.760 --> 00:38:42.840
the puck carrier if we're defending, and what type of
676
00:38:43.199 --> 00:38:45.239
support do we need to put on the puck if
677
00:38:45.280 --> 00:38:45.960
we have the puck.
678
00:38:46.320 --> 00:38:48.320
So those are all decisions that had.
679
00:38:48.159 --> 00:38:51.559
To be made prior to even stepping on the ice
680
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:55.400
because they shape, They shaped the way that you create
681
00:38:55.519 --> 00:38:59.239
environments to be able to have those things in there.
682
00:39:00.360 --> 00:39:01.760
And I think that's quite important.
683
00:39:03.360 --> 00:39:07.719
And it sounds to me like you had the players
684
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:13.480
pively involved in making the decisions around the best way
685
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:20.800
for you to activate those those roles and what happened
686
00:39:20.800 --> 00:39:25.239
within those roles, so that you built this shared understanding
687
00:39:27.360 --> 00:39:29.840
between the players. I'm assuming you didn't just do that,
688
00:39:31.440 --> 00:39:32.920
you know, in the kind of you know, with the
689
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:34.960
whiteboard and the video in the room. That would have
690
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:36.239
been some of that, but it was a lot of
691
00:39:36.239 --> 00:39:36.760
that on ice.
692
00:39:38.599 --> 00:39:46.760
Yeah, I'd like to say I did that well. That
693
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:51.679
once again, even coaches fail forward right. Part of the
694
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.840
process was developing some type of psychological safety so they
695
00:39:55.920 --> 00:39:59.079
knew that failure was part of the journey, not not
696
00:39:59.199 --> 00:40:01.159
something It wasn't I wasn't tied to a big stick
697
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:04.880
that you could be beaten with. So those are the
698
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.599
things that we spent a bit of time on sort
699
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:12.000
of getting an understanding that for us to explore different
700
00:40:12.480 --> 00:40:15.400
solutions to a problem, some of them aren't going to work.
701
00:40:16.480 --> 00:40:17.000
Those were the.
702
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:20.239
Conversations I had, and I did that through you know, documentation,
703
00:40:20.559 --> 00:40:25.559
like creating sort of Google documents for them to read.
704
00:40:26.840 --> 00:40:29.440
I had coaching staff that I had to develop as well,
705
00:40:29.559 --> 00:40:33.159
So I would end up sort of doing an athlete
706
00:40:33.320 --> 00:40:36.079
version of the coaching plan that they would get a
707
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:36.760
few days in.
708
00:40:36.719 --> 00:40:39.280
Advance, and then I would do a coach version of.
709
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:43.440
That, which would then break down the whole the methodology
710
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.760
behind each of the tasks and what they were doing
711
00:40:45.800 --> 00:40:47.880
and why we were doing them, and how we were
712
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:51.599
going to spotlight certain things and what outcomes we were
713
00:40:51.599 --> 00:40:54.960
looking for, and if those outcomes didn't sort of didn't eventuate,
714
00:40:55.000 --> 00:40:58.960
we would then you alter the constraints to suit those outcomes.
715
00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:01.960
Sort of we created I guess a global a global
716
00:41:02.320 --> 00:41:05.639
constraint based task around it. So that was the outcome.
717
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:07.719
We were after a two one two for instance, which
718
00:41:07.760 --> 00:41:12.360
is a Ford checking system, understanding that that's still part
719
00:41:12.400 --> 00:41:17.239
of the game, but allowing the athletes to I guess
720
00:41:18.280 --> 00:41:23.119
problems solve the role as opposed to being very scripted. So,
721
00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:27.599
and I've got to be honest, a lot of a
722
00:41:27.639 --> 00:41:33.480
lot of the athletes struggled with the autonomy. And it's
723
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:36.800
one of those things that I did a deep dive
724
00:41:36.840 --> 00:41:41.360
into sort of learner centered environments because I think that
725
00:41:41.480 --> 00:41:43.639
was probably the biggest learning thing I had to do,
726
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.960
was look at what staffolding look like, how you know
727
00:41:47.000 --> 00:41:50.599
what is holding you know, the the athlete, what was
728
00:41:50.599 --> 00:41:53.880
giving the athletes support? And it's it's tricky to do
729
00:41:53.920 --> 00:41:58.320
all that does a single coach with and the only
730
00:41:58.440 --> 00:42:00.519
person in the room that's ecological.
731
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:05.239
Yeah, I really hear you, and I relate to what
732
00:42:05.239 --> 00:42:08.400
you're saying, because not only are you trying to develop
733
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:10.800
the athletes, you're also trying to develop a coaching staff
734
00:42:11.159 --> 00:42:16.320
who are probably less versed in ecological thinking than you are,
735
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:20.079
and so to be able to rely on them to
736
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:25.079
relay your ideas is quite challenging. I find often as
737
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:26.480
well that you know, I find when I work with
738
00:42:26.519 --> 00:42:30.360
the coaches that I WinCE a bit because, like, you know,
739
00:42:30.400 --> 00:42:33.000
you're so for example, you're just using your really good
740
00:42:33.000 --> 00:42:36.079
example there of actually, and I've really experienced this myself,
741
00:42:36.119 --> 00:42:38.159
where when you are going to work in a more
742
00:42:38.199 --> 00:42:40.679
exploratory way and we are going to work from the
743
00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:45.719
individual backwards and just get them to understand more about
744
00:42:46.360 --> 00:42:50.119
how they approach a task or a challenge or a
745
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:54.679
situation or a puzzle or whatever it might be, there
746
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.360
is inevitably, as you rightly say, failure of some kind.
747
00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:03.199
You know's there's going to be things that happen, go wrong,
748
00:43:03.239 --> 00:43:05.400
and that's where the learning is and that's rich. But
749
00:43:05.519 --> 00:43:08.199
if you're with a group who are very used to
750
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:15.119
the coach being the arbiter of right and wrong and
751
00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:21.000
that feedback being provided continuously, they become very you know,
752
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:26.519
there's sort of almost that learned helplessness where they abdicate
753
00:43:26.679 --> 00:43:35.079
their own decision making and also of actively avoid mistakes errors,
754
00:43:35.199 --> 00:43:41.280
because that's something that either gets praise or admonishment and
755
00:43:41.559 --> 00:43:44.880
determines ice time and selections and all these sorts of things.
756
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:47.480
When you're in that I've got that cultural dynamic that
757
00:43:47.480 --> 00:43:50.239
you're trying to address, and you're taking a group on
758
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:52.559
a journey. And I call this like a periodization of
759
00:43:52.599 --> 00:43:56.159
methodology because it can be very destabilizing for a group
760
00:43:56.199 --> 00:44:00.679
to go from that to a more open explorer approach.
761
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:02.280
They feel quite what one.
762
00:44:04.559 --> 00:44:09.719
And that's exactly what happened, you know. Two. I mean,
763
00:44:11.119 --> 00:44:13.159
if if we're not into scripting, you scripted it.
764
00:44:13.199 --> 00:44:21.159
Well, the whole idea that the the you know, when
765
00:44:21.199 --> 00:44:23.679
you when you do a deep dive into autonomy for
766
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:28.400
children and autonomy for adult men and autonomy for women,
767
00:44:28.400 --> 00:44:31.559
they're all different. So what does autonomy look like for
768
00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:34.840
a twenty two year old man versus autonomy for a
769
00:44:34.880 --> 00:44:38.400
twenty five year old woman? And then those are those
770
00:44:38.440 --> 00:44:41.639
are things that you have to sort of, I guess
771
00:44:42.880 --> 00:44:47.760
understand what that looks like. And you know, and part
772
00:44:47.800 --> 00:44:50.239
of that autonomy is, you know, as as if you're
773
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.320
in the learner based application, part of your autonomy is
774
00:44:53.360 --> 00:44:56.960
how you how you control the noise when you do fail,
775
00:44:57.400 --> 00:45:01.400
how do you recover from failure? How do you chock
776
00:45:01.480 --> 00:45:05.039
that failure up to just it's just another go I
777
00:45:05.519 --> 00:45:08.079
have this term called sampling. It's one of these things
778
00:45:08.079 --> 00:45:11.039
that sort of it helps me in my mind. And
779
00:45:11.440 --> 00:45:14.920
I like it because it's like, you know, I consider
780
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.480
every every problem like a buffet. You know, you're gonna
781
00:45:17.519 --> 00:45:18.920
go up there and you're going to sample a few
782
00:45:18.920 --> 00:45:21.519
different versions until you actually sort of put a meal
783
00:45:21.559 --> 00:45:25.920
together you enjoyed. So sampling is one of those things
784
00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:27.719
that I like to talk about. So when I sort
785
00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:30.679
of talk about the task, I want them to sample
786
00:45:30.719 --> 00:45:35.599
different outcomes. And they and because they're very much coach centered,
787
00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:40.239
they want and it's not even a one you know,
788
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:43.840
and I use that word wrong. They they they need
789
00:45:43.960 --> 00:45:48.920
the feedback because they're not listening to what the environment
790
00:45:48.960 --> 00:45:49.440
tells them.
791
00:45:49.480 --> 00:45:49.679
Right.
792
00:45:50.639 --> 00:45:53.440
I wrote an article for the Coach's site and it
793
00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:58.280
talks about basically the three forms of feedback. And part
794
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:00.400
of that first of those of the environmental feed back.
795
00:46:00.719 --> 00:46:03.480
You know, you're getting feedback all the time the you know,
796
00:46:03.519 --> 00:46:06.000
the players on the ice, the position of where you are,
797
00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:07.159
how much time do.
798
00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:08.360
I have, what pressure do I have?
799
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:11.960
That's feedback, right, and then whether the whether the task
800
00:46:12.280 --> 00:46:14.039
did you succeed or did you fail?
801
00:46:14.239 --> 00:46:15.519
I mean that's feedback as well.
802
00:46:15.960 --> 00:46:17.639
You know, you don't need someone to tell you who
803
00:46:17.679 --> 00:46:20.559
failed when you actually failed. If I didn't score a goal,
804
00:46:20.599 --> 00:46:22.480
I don't need someone to tell me I didn't score
805
00:46:22.480 --> 00:46:26.079
a goal. So that's your feedback, and then you have
806
00:46:26.159 --> 00:46:29.119
that coach based feedback, which is what they're looking for.
807
00:46:29.159 --> 00:46:32.320
And I felt that a lot of athletes today who
808
00:46:32.320 --> 00:46:37.199
are very much coach centered, don't hear the environmental feedback,
809
00:46:37.199 --> 00:46:41.360
and they don't hear they don't hear the sort of
810
00:46:41.800 --> 00:46:44.559
that type of feedback from whether they succeeded or failed.
811
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:47.119
They're more looking for feedback from the coach to see
812
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:51.400
whether they succeeded in the coach's expectation as opposed to
813
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:52.960
being able to solve the problem.
814
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:56.039
And I feel that a lot.
815
00:46:55.880 --> 00:46:57.840
Of players they struggle with that, and I don't think
816
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:01.480
we do enough work and personally, I don't think we
817
00:47:01.559 --> 00:47:03.960
spend enough time even developing that with coaches.
818
00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:07.079
That the you can't you can't.
819
00:47:06.719 --> 00:47:11.440
Have a constraint let approach, you can't have ecological dynamics,
820
00:47:11.440 --> 00:47:15.800
you can't have nonlinear pedagogy. If you're leaving everyone out
821
00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:20.679
in the cold because you're asking for autonomy, but they
822
00:47:20.719 --> 00:47:23.920
don't have they don't understand what that autonomy means. You're
823
00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:27.239
asking for them to make decisions, but they're wanting you
824
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.920
to give them the solution to the problem. You're asking
825
00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:36.000
for them to explore, but they they're fearful of failure,
826
00:47:37.519 --> 00:47:41.239
so you're you're really you're setting them up to fail
827
00:47:41.320 --> 00:47:45.400
if you haven't that up any type of framework or scaffolding.
828
00:47:45.840 --> 00:47:48.480
And the reality of this is when you're one person,
829
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:52.079
and like I look after a development squad as well.
830
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:55.880
So Personferno comes with a development squad. So in the
831
00:47:56.000 --> 00:48:01.119
end I look after about forty women aged from fourteen
832
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:05.639
years of age up to forty five, and half of
833
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:07.920
those play in the Inferno, which is a travel team,
834
00:48:07.920 --> 00:48:10.239
and the other half of the development so looking after
835
00:48:10.280 --> 00:48:15.719
the whole women's program in Western Australia, and two completely different.
836
00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:16.880
Versions of what that looks like.
837
00:48:17.400 --> 00:48:20.159
So those are the things if I, if I, if
838
00:48:20.159 --> 00:48:23.800
you ask me what lesson I learned this year or
839
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:28.480
last year, it would be the understanding about learner centered
840
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:32.199
environments and how they can they can fail and how
841
00:48:32.599 --> 00:48:33.000
sort of.
842
00:48:34.760 --> 00:48:37.159
They're not If you don't structure them correctly, they fail.
843
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:43.559
Yeah, makes I very have a lot of similar experiences,
844
00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:50.199
I think, And again your points about autonomy are really
845
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.480
good one. So I've not really thought about it in
846
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:54.880
those terms, but yeah, you're right in the sense that
847
00:48:55.199 --> 00:48:59.159
and again this is generalizing, but what I've noticed is,
848
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:01.960
and what make what you made me think about was
849
00:49:02.400 --> 00:49:06.199
I worked for a period of time in one of
850
00:49:06.199 --> 00:49:11.840
the national age group academies for gb field Hockey, and
851
00:49:12.199 --> 00:49:14.840
they did a bit of an experiment where they brought
852
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:23.400
together multiple age groups U sixteen U eighteen with boys
853
00:49:23.400 --> 00:49:28.519
and girls together, mixed and not a lot of guidance
854
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:32.679
really around the way you run the academy. But we
855
00:49:32.679 --> 00:49:34.679
were there, you know, and we had about forty athletes,
856
00:49:34.719 --> 00:49:37.119
so significant number one pitch. You know, you've got quite
857
00:49:37.159 --> 00:49:39.320
got to do quite a lot. And we have worked
858
00:49:39.599 --> 00:49:43.119
lots of different ways of sort of mixing up the group.
859
00:49:43.480 --> 00:49:47.400
Sometimes it was different ages together, sometimes it was, you know,
860
00:49:47.480 --> 00:49:50.639
we play positions, this sort of stuff. One of the
861
00:49:50.639 --> 00:49:56.400
things I noticed, though, was how the boys, often because
862
00:49:56.440 --> 00:50:02.039
their notion of autonomy was and interestingly it was also
863
00:50:02.079 --> 00:50:06.320
interesting to notice their biography and the biography became going
864
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:11.000
back to our point earlier about individualization, their biography very
865
00:50:11.039 --> 00:50:15.960
often was quite determinant in the way they approached what
866
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:20.719
was a more kind of exploratory no, right, and wrong
867
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:24.639
athlete led to a certain extent or certainly athlete more
868
00:50:24.639 --> 00:50:28.320
athlete centered approach. And I noticed some really struggled boys
869
00:50:28.320 --> 00:50:32.199
and girls. But the boys particularly, I could almost tell
870
00:50:32.280 --> 00:50:36.440
you just by the way they approached the activities. I
871
00:50:36.480 --> 00:50:38.559
could almost tell you what type of school they went to,
872
00:50:39.159 --> 00:50:43.400
And I could almost tell you which school they went to,
873
00:50:43.400 --> 00:50:45.440
to the point where I could tell if, for example,
874
00:50:45.480 --> 00:50:47.440
they went to an independent school versus if they were
875
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:50.559
state educated or more club club activity led. And I
876
00:50:50.559 --> 00:50:54.119
could also pretty much tell you the kind of school,
877
00:50:54.239 --> 00:50:56.400
or I couldn't definitely say which school, but I could
878
00:50:56.440 --> 00:50:58.239
had a rough idea of which school it was, because
879
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:02.079
you could sort of see how they approached certain things
880
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:05.079
and on the difference beween boys and girls. And it's
881
00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:09.039
just by way of an illustrative story, I remember distinctly,
882
00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:12.480
we had a we were playing a sort of a
883
00:51:12.480 --> 00:51:16.519
fairly big ish game, and one of the female players
884
00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:20.880
picked up the ball in attack and was basically one
885
00:51:20.960 --> 00:51:27.159
VW one against this giant under eighteen six foot two
886
00:51:28.519 --> 00:51:33.599
boy man. Right, And she was about fifteen or something, right,
887
00:51:33.639 --> 00:51:37.039
but of real had a lot of potential, and she
888
00:51:37.159 --> 00:51:41.159
went right, I'm gonna I'm gonna have him. I'm gonna
889
00:51:41.199 --> 00:51:43.559
go for it. And you saw her do it, right,
890
00:51:43.800 --> 00:51:48.920
And this guy, she just absolutely turned him inside out
891
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:51.800
and was just about to go through one goal and
892
00:51:51.840 --> 00:51:55.960
he managed by virtue of his physicality to reach out
893
00:51:56.039 --> 00:52:00.280
and just about nick the ball. And he walked way
894
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:02.519
like he was the king of the North, and you know,
895
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:04.800
and he just had it all and she was sort
896
00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:07.920
of a bit crestfallen. And I called her to me
897
00:52:08.880 --> 00:52:11.800
and I said, I said, to it, talk me through that.
898
00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:14.719
And she said, oh, maybe I should have held it
899
00:52:14.800 --> 00:52:17.480
up and passed or dot it. And it was basically
900
00:52:17.559 --> 00:52:19.679
she desired in her own mind. She designed that as
901
00:52:19.719 --> 00:52:22.440
a failure. And we done a lot of work to
902
00:52:22.440 --> 00:52:24.280
try and design the idea that this is what we're
903
00:52:24.320 --> 00:52:27.360
looking for. Will and I and I was saying to it,
904
00:52:27.440 --> 00:52:29.239
I said, oh, it's interesting that you see it that way.
905
00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:32.280
For me, I thought it was the best thing I've
906
00:52:32.320 --> 00:52:35.280
seen this this evening. And the reason I felt it
907
00:52:35.320 --> 00:52:37.039
was the best thing I saw this evening was because
908
00:52:37.400 --> 00:52:40.400
you had to go You bought into the idea that
909
00:52:40.440 --> 00:52:42.719
we're gonna think, we're gonna have a go at things
910
00:52:42.960 --> 00:52:45.920
so that we can learn from them and develop them,
911
00:52:46.000 --> 00:52:48.159
but the biggest thing you did was to go there,
912
00:52:48.280 --> 00:52:49.960
so I you know, and that was the sort of
913
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:52.639
discussion we had. I'm paraphrasing the conversation, but the point
914
00:52:52.639 --> 00:52:54.920
I'm trying to make about that is is that what
915
00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:57.880
I was taking from this was this notion of autonomy
916
00:52:57.920 --> 00:53:01.599
and how she came at the session was hugely influenced
917
00:53:01.599 --> 00:53:05.159
by her life experiences, and as life experiences are taught
918
00:53:05.199 --> 00:53:09.360
her that actually there's a lot of risk you carry
919
00:53:09.760 --> 00:53:13.360
when you take when you become an individual and you
920
00:53:13.480 --> 00:53:16.000
break away from the group and you have a go
921
00:53:16.159 --> 00:53:19.679
at things, and for a female in a particular environment
922
00:53:19.719 --> 00:53:21.800
that she'd grown up in and all that sort of stuff,
923
00:53:22.000 --> 00:53:25.920
loads of risk, loads of risk, and therefore it's very
924
00:53:25.920 --> 00:53:29.280
difficult sometimes to encourage a group or even offer the
925
00:53:29.360 --> 00:53:32.639
opportunity for a group to take those kinds of risks,
926
00:53:32.679 --> 00:53:34.960
to break free, to be a little bit more individual,
927
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:37.920
to do things a little bit differently. And it's just
928
00:53:37.920 --> 00:53:39.119
something I just took away as a bit of a
929
00:53:39.159 --> 00:53:42.159
learning experience. That's a really long winded explanation, so apologies
930
00:53:42.159 --> 00:53:42.679
for the story.
931
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:44.440
And also from.
932
00:53:46.639 --> 00:53:49.639
If we looked at a male autonomy versus the female autonomy,
933
00:53:49.719 --> 00:53:52.440
they would tend to be more team oriented. They would
934
00:53:52.480 --> 00:53:56.880
tend to spend more time in sharing in the outcome.
935
00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:59.920
They would want to bring people along for the journey.
936
00:54:00.159 --> 00:54:04.880
They care that they're the athletes that are around them
937
00:54:04.920 --> 00:54:08.000
are succeeding as well. These are all sort of very
938
00:54:08.039 --> 00:54:12.000
strong objectives that you need to understand. And then in
939
00:54:12.000 --> 00:54:17.960
a male version of that, I scored the goal, Yes, so,
940
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:25.639
and you can. You can really, you know, I've coached
941
00:54:25.679 --> 00:54:30.360
mixed teams where the girls. My belief, and it's my belief,
942
00:54:31.400 --> 00:54:36.119
is that most most female athletes when they're playing in
943
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:38.440
a mixed environment, tend to be at the back, not
944
00:54:38.480 --> 00:54:41.519
at the front. They don't tend to get as much
945
00:54:41.840 --> 00:54:44.440
coach time as the boys do.
946
00:54:45.440 --> 00:54:50.599
So traditionally, the by default or by accident, the.
947
00:54:50.599 --> 00:54:54.880
Coaching has been creating them into believing that that the
948
00:54:54.960 --> 00:54:56.800
coach will tell them what to do when they when
949
00:54:56.840 --> 00:55:00.000
it's needing to be done, as opposed to giving them
950
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:05.679
an opportunity to try something different, and you know, laugh
951
00:55:05.800 --> 00:55:09.599
when we fail, because you know we've got another you know,
952
00:55:10.000 --> 00:55:11.639
I always talk to people about it and they say,
953
00:55:11.920 --> 00:55:13.480
but I failed, And I said, well that's great, and
954
00:55:13.519 --> 00:55:14.719
they well, that makes no sense.
955
00:55:14.800 --> 00:55:17.519
I said, well, that's that's one less thing.
956
00:55:17.440 --> 00:55:19.199
We have to think about when we try and solve
957
00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:22.440
the problem the next time, you know so, and and
958
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:25.039
then part of that that sort of global constraint is
959
00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:28.119
trying to reduce as many solutions as you possibly can
960
00:55:28.639 --> 00:55:32.360
so they they find the solution to the problem you
961
00:55:32.480 --> 00:55:36.199
created from scaling and you know, adjusting the numbers and
962
00:55:36.400 --> 00:55:39.320
basically the way that ecological dynamics talks about, how you
963
00:55:39.599 --> 00:55:44.639
how you guide the athlete to to a solution that
964
00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:49.320
suits the way that they would solve the problem in
965
00:55:49.400 --> 00:55:52.400
the shortest distance of time without scripting the outcome.
966
00:55:52.599 --> 00:55:54.679
And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
967
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:58.000
It sounds to me like you're having some success. Now
968
00:55:58.000 --> 00:56:01.320
this might be just by chanting, of course, but it
969
00:56:01.440 --> 00:56:05.320
seems to me that the athletes are responding well and
970
00:56:05.440 --> 00:56:11.119
you're seeing some results better than were happening previously. Expand
971
00:56:11.199 --> 00:56:14.239
on that. Feel free to, you know, pig it all up.
972
00:56:14.400 --> 00:56:15.920
Who knows, but I'm just interested.
973
00:56:20.360 --> 00:56:22.639
I would I would like to say that.
974
00:56:24.199 --> 00:56:27.440
I'm the hero in this story, but that's probably not
975
00:56:27.559 --> 00:56:31.440
the case. I think the reality of this is that
976
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:38.360
they there are certain ways you need I believe that
977
00:56:40.559 --> 00:56:43.519
everything is about the psychology of the game. It's never
978
00:56:43.559 --> 00:56:46.920
really about the the skill of the game per se.
979
00:56:48.800 --> 00:56:53.519
So you know, I have this real belief on not
980
00:56:53.599 --> 00:56:57.079
just the psychological safety, but how we use psychology. Is
981
00:56:57.239 --> 00:57:00.239
hockey is a very simple sport. It's time and space,
982
00:57:00.719 --> 00:57:03.639
and inside that time and space, it's how you work
983
00:57:03.719 --> 00:57:06.639
with the psychology, what pressures do you use. So when
984
00:57:06.679 --> 00:57:10.039
we started to when I started to create environments based
985
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:12.920
around that, I created environments that suited the game that
986
00:57:12.960 --> 00:57:15.920
I wanted them to play. So every task that we
987
00:57:16.039 --> 00:57:18.800
did was based around the games I wanted to play. Now,
988
00:57:18.840 --> 00:57:22.840
this didn't match the game that they were playing. This
989
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:25.679
matched a different game, a game that I wanted them
990
00:57:25.719 --> 00:57:29.400
to be the I guess articulate in for them to
991
00:57:29.559 --> 00:57:34.239
understand what those psychological pressures are, what time constraints they have,
992
00:57:34.400 --> 00:57:38.119
what space constraints they have. So from a task design
993
00:57:38.320 --> 00:57:42.400
using ecological dynamics, I would say one hundred percent built
994
00:57:42.440 --> 00:57:45.320
around the environment that I wanted them to play. In
995
00:57:45.800 --> 00:57:49.000
ecological dynamics ticked every box the way I wanted to do.
996
00:57:49.760 --> 00:57:53.400
Most of the athletes wanted to do. Flow drills flowed
997
00:57:54.880 --> 00:57:57.159
it's your fear as well. Flow drills is where you
998
00:57:57.199 --> 00:57:59.519
have five people standing around and as they're doing is
999
00:57:59.519 --> 00:58:03.000
station repassing and one person out of the forties skating
1000
00:58:03.039 --> 00:58:05.119
around in circles and then has a shot on net.
1001
00:58:06.360 --> 00:58:11.719
I feel drill flow at all. The only thing that
1002
00:58:11.800 --> 00:58:16.440
was flowing was Yeah, it's the reality is that it's
1003
00:58:16.559 --> 00:58:17.880
just not a great space.
1004
00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.400
And I didn't feel that it was where we wanted
1005
00:58:20.440 --> 00:58:26.480
to be. But it's hard because you know, we would
1006
00:58:26.519 --> 00:58:30.400
spend and only having forty five minutes a week to train.
1007
00:58:31.679 --> 00:58:33.480
So very much.
1008
00:58:33.960 --> 00:58:38.960
How do I how do I change their their understanding
1009
00:58:39.079 --> 00:58:41.199
of the game to suit a game that they've never
1010
00:58:41.239 --> 00:58:48.320
played before in forty five minutes. And that's that's the
1011
00:58:48.519 --> 00:58:51.039
task that I set for myself because you know, if
1012
00:58:51.639 --> 00:58:54.119
if I feel that like and I BLib this belief
1013
00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:57.239
that if that if I think the athlete has to learn,
1014
00:58:57.280 --> 00:59:00.679
they have to be uncomfortable. If they're if they're comfortable
1015
00:59:00.679 --> 00:59:02.480
in what they're doing, they're not really learning anything. It's
1016
00:59:02.519 --> 00:59:05.920
just rehearsing something. Right, If they're comfortable in standing around
1017
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:08.440
doing flow drills, they're not learning anything. They're just rehearsing
1018
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:11.119
something that may may or it may never happen. We're
1019
00:59:11.119 --> 00:59:13.880
never going to be invited to the stage to be
1020
00:59:13.960 --> 00:59:17.719
in this play that somebody has invented. We're playing a
1021
00:59:17.760 --> 00:59:21.440
live a live game, so I had to basically make
1022
00:59:21.480 --> 00:59:23.960
sure that the environment played a game that they had
1023
00:59:23.960 --> 00:59:27.159
never played before. So every task was a battle game.
1024
00:59:27.480 --> 00:59:31.079
Every task was you are either a one on one,
1025
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:34.119
a two on one, a two on two, a three
1026
00:59:34.239 --> 00:59:37.920
on two, and everything had time constraints. When the offense
1027
00:59:37.960 --> 00:59:40.440
picked up the puck, they had three seconds to score.
1028
00:59:40.719 --> 00:59:42.960
When the defense picked up the puck, they had five
1029
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:45.920
seconds to clear. They weren't allowed to throw the puck away.
1030
00:59:46.119 --> 00:59:49.159
They had to either pass the puck or create soft dice,
1031
00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:51.559
which means they had to support their own player. They
1032
00:59:51.559 --> 00:59:53.840
had to look for environments that they could move the
1033
00:59:53.840 --> 00:59:58.440
puck around. Every task we did was based around this.
1034
00:59:58.800 --> 01:00:00.760
We would start off with a small area game, we
1035
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:02.440
would go to a mid ice game, we would go
1036
01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:04.559
to a three quarter game, and then we would finalize
1037
01:00:04.559 --> 01:00:06.599
at the end of the forty five In a full
1038
01:00:06.679 --> 01:00:10.320
ice game, there'd be no stops or starts, no whistles,
1039
01:00:10.360 --> 01:00:13.440
the game was flowing because really, the girls have to
1040
01:00:13.480 --> 01:00:16.559
be able to skate for two minutes for a game
1041
01:00:16.559 --> 01:00:19.920
that last forty five seconds, So those are things that
1042
01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:21.679
we had to do because that was the type of
1043
01:00:21.719 --> 01:00:23.719
game that I wanted them to play, a game that
1044
01:00:23.719 --> 01:00:30.639
they'd never seen before. Ecological dynamics, the sort of nonlinear pedagogy,
1045
01:00:31.039 --> 01:00:36.800
the constraint leads approach, they are built for this. If
1046
01:00:36.880 --> 01:00:40.960
you did nothing else but understand the game that you
1047
01:00:41.039 --> 01:00:44.320
want to play, you actually have to train that way.
1048
01:00:44.920 --> 01:00:48.199
And then you can't do that in a basic grill.
1049
01:00:48.320 --> 01:00:50.599
You can't do that in a in something that you
1050
01:00:50.639 --> 01:00:55.320
can't control the environment. So if you did nothing else,
1051
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:57.320
and if you didn't believe in anything else, if you
1052
01:00:57.360 --> 01:00:59.480
wanted your team to play the way you want them
1053
01:00:59.519 --> 01:01:02.519
to play, is the only way you could do it.
1054
01:01:02.519 --> 01:01:05.960
It's interesting, I am got there's so much to unpack.
1055
01:01:10.920 --> 01:01:13.960
It strikes me that it's just at its most basic level.
1056
01:01:14.920 --> 01:01:21.800
You took a group who were previously focused on their
1057
01:01:21.840 --> 01:01:28.920
attention was drawn towards movement execution because they were doing
1058
01:01:28.960 --> 01:01:31.159
what you describe as flow drills, which were much more
1059
01:01:31.199 --> 01:01:34.159
focused on how do I execute acute movements that are
1060
01:01:34.159 --> 01:01:36.559
going to be more or less effective in given situations,
1061
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:38.960
not even in given situations, just more or less effective
1062
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:42.159
in terms of outcome, And you took the attention from
1063
01:01:42.199 --> 01:01:49.800
that towards an attention on interaction. How do we interact
1064
01:01:49.800 --> 01:01:53.039
with each other and our opponents in order to achieve
1065
01:01:53.840 --> 01:01:58.360
something in a semi coordinated way, and a shared understanding
1066
01:01:58.400 --> 01:02:01.159
of how we interact and horrent actions. And you just
1067
01:02:01.239 --> 01:02:03.920
placed focus from one to the other by virtue of
1068
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:07.920
a different, entirely different practice paradox. That's how I interpreted
1069
01:02:07.960 --> 01:02:08.639
what you just told me.
1070
01:02:09.840 --> 01:02:10.760
And that's exactly right.
1071
01:02:11.559 --> 01:02:15.760
I still got, you know, week five, and understand that
1072
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:18.239
we played small area games, and there would be it
1073
01:02:18.280 --> 01:02:20.760
wouldn't be one person, there would be six people on
1074
01:02:20.800 --> 01:02:22.599
the ice, would be eight people on the ice. We'd
1075
01:02:22.639 --> 01:02:25.480
be playing in one zone, so one zone might be
1076
01:02:25.519 --> 01:02:27.039
from the goal line to the blue line.
1077
01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:29.800
We'd be playing end to end. We'll be doing this.
1078
01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:32.599
And I don't know how many times I got asked
1079
01:02:32.599 --> 01:02:34.559
whether we were going to practice passing.
1080
01:02:37.239 --> 01:02:39.800
Even though they'd been like eighty odd plasses just happened
1081
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:41.079
in the last five minutes.
1082
01:02:40.840 --> 01:02:45.480
Plus, just in the last five minutes, and what that was?
1083
01:02:46.480 --> 01:02:50.920
Those were there, and and you know, and I expected that, right,
1084
01:02:50.960 --> 01:02:56.000
I did expect that because their perception and this is
1085
01:02:56.079 --> 01:02:57.880
and that's one of the other things that you know,
1086
01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:02.039
when you're coaching, people try to think to themselves that
1087
01:03:02.360 --> 01:03:07.000
everything has to be perfect. Now I think it just
1088
01:03:07.039 --> 01:03:10.199
has to be efficient. It doesn't have to be perfect
1089
01:03:10.679 --> 01:03:15.599
because it's not adaptable. If it's perfect, if it's efficient,
1090
01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:20.039
I can adapt it. So you know, they would get
1091
01:03:20.079 --> 01:03:22.760
upset when I wouldn't pull them up on passes that
1092
01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:24.360
never made you know.
1093
01:03:24.480 --> 01:03:26.639
It wasn't a tape to take pass. It wasn't perfect.
1094
01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:31.440
But we went from traveling at fifteen pays an hour
1095
01:03:31.480 --> 01:03:36.440
to twenty two k's now, so the environment's changed. Of course,
1096
01:03:36.840 --> 01:03:39.559
stationary passing backwards and forwards would be really great if
1097
01:03:39.800 --> 01:03:44.679
we're all standing around passing, but the passing became less.
1098
01:03:46.039 --> 01:03:50.039
I guess perfect because the environment changed and they struggled
1099
01:03:50.079 --> 01:03:53.079
with that. They struggled with I haven't practiced backwards skating.
1100
01:03:53.440 --> 01:03:56.400
We need to practice backward skating. Or we played for
1101
01:03:56.639 --> 01:04:00.480
ice five on five at some point you must have
1102
01:04:00.519 --> 01:04:05.039
skated backwards in that In that environment, you didn't think
1103
01:04:05.079 --> 01:04:08.559
about skating backwards. It was just the most efficient movement
1104
01:04:08.599 --> 01:04:12.519
solution at the time, so you didn't need to spend
1105
01:04:12.559 --> 01:04:13.920
time thinking about practicing it.
1106
01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:14.639
You just did it.
1107
01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:18.280
And then because because it suited the type of game
1108
01:04:18.320 --> 01:04:21.440
that were wanting to play. It then became efficient for
1109
01:04:21.480 --> 01:04:23.559
what you needed in the game, and if it didn't,
1110
01:04:23.639 --> 01:04:27.840
it failed. And then you you had that environmental feedback
1111
01:04:27.880 --> 01:04:29.800
to tell you that I need to do something different,
1112
01:04:29.840 --> 01:04:31.760
I need to transition earlier, I need to spend more
1113
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:33.320
time on this, I need to work out what that
1114
01:04:33.360 --> 01:04:33.760
looks like.
1115
01:04:34.079 --> 01:04:35.960
So there's living feedback.
1116
01:04:36.039 --> 01:04:39.000
There's feedback from the game, there's feedback from the ice,
1117
01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:42.119
there's feedback from the decisions you made way before. You
1118
01:04:42.159 --> 01:04:43.679
need to get to the bench, and the coach is
1119
01:04:43.679 --> 01:04:46.440
saying you should have probably skated a bit harder. You
1120
01:04:46.440 --> 01:04:50.480
know that that internal skate a bit harder where you
1121
01:04:50.519 --> 01:04:53.840
know that's the That's the thing that I think hurts
1122
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:56.400
people the most is the language we use. You know,
1123
01:04:56.800 --> 01:05:01.360
close the gap is better than skate faster? What the
1124
01:05:01.400 --> 01:05:02.440
escape faster mean?
1125
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:03.119
You know?
1126
01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:05.719
Do I move my legs quicker, do I go for
1127
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:09.880
my arms faster? Or what am I actually trying to do?
1128
01:05:10.000 --> 01:05:12.960
Am I trying to catch the puck carrier? So I'm
1129
01:05:13.000 --> 01:05:16.719
closing the gap? So those are the conversations that they
1130
01:05:17.119 --> 01:05:20.840
struggled with because they were still looking at that perfect
1131
01:05:20.880 --> 01:05:24.920
pass and there's a lot of There's also it's such
1132
01:05:24.960 --> 01:05:28.679
a traditional environment that we live in that if you
1133
01:05:28.760 --> 01:05:32.559
looked from the outside in and didn't see anyone standing
1134
01:05:32.599 --> 01:05:35.800
around sort of passing, then you would think that we
1135
01:05:36.840 --> 01:05:41.639
didn't have any intent on them becoming better passes. But
1136
01:05:41.679 --> 01:05:44.559
the reality is I needed to create passes that could
1137
01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:47.039
pass in an environment that was traveling at twenty two
1138
01:05:47.119 --> 01:05:50.159
ks an hour. I always have this thing that people
1139
01:05:50.199 --> 01:05:52.559
ask me about what that looks like, and I always
1140
01:05:52.599 --> 01:05:55.039
say to them, well, okay, so you want to learn
1141
01:05:55.079 --> 01:05:58.960
to cross the road. So there are no cars on
1142
01:05:59.000 --> 01:06:01.559
the road, I walk back goods and forwards. I can dance,
1143
01:06:01.679 --> 01:06:03.920
I can sing, I can do whatever I want. And
1144
01:06:03.960 --> 01:06:06.159
now the cars are traveling at fifty k's an hour.
1145
01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:10.480
Can I dance? Can I sing? No, I'm running for
1146
01:06:10.559 --> 01:06:13.559
my life. So it's a different environment that I've learned on.
1147
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:17.000
So I need to make sure that they understand that
1148
01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:21.719
the skills that they need are suited to the environment
1149
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:23.760
that we want to play. And the only way that
1150
01:06:23.840 --> 01:06:27.239
you can really, I guess, attract those skills. The only
1151
01:06:27.280 --> 01:06:30.039
way you can actually turn those into things that I
1152
01:06:30.039 --> 01:06:32.760
can use is actually do the space and do the
1153
01:06:32.800 --> 01:06:35.960
time and have the pressure how much time and pressure
1154
01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:38.280
do I have? If I increase the pressure, reduce the
1155
01:06:38.320 --> 01:06:41.079
amount of time, reduce your amount of space, You've now
1156
01:06:41.119 --> 01:06:44.239
got to make decisions. So that means now you've got
1157
01:06:44.280 --> 01:06:46.559
to start thinking about the game a bit more. You've
1158
01:06:46.559 --> 01:06:48.800
got to start wondering how I protect the puck, how
1159
01:06:48.880 --> 01:06:52.239
I look at these things. So without me spending half
1160
01:06:52.280 --> 01:06:55.159
an hour showing somebody how to protect the puck, they
1161
01:06:55.159 --> 01:06:58.079
are now involved in doing that themselves, working it out.
1162
01:06:58.159 --> 01:06:59.840
And sometimes it won't work, and sometimes it.
1163
01:06:59.760 --> 01:07:02.559
Will, And then I'll ask the question, how what were
1164
01:07:02.599 --> 01:07:06.079
the decisions that you made, How did they impact the
1165
01:07:06.159 --> 01:07:09.840
last thirty seconds? What did you do differently that we
1166
01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:12.239
were able to get that puck out? And you know,
1167
01:07:12.320 --> 01:07:14.920
those just those questions about them having to go back
1168
01:07:14.920 --> 01:07:16.920
and rewind and have a look at what they did
1169
01:07:17.280 --> 01:07:20.320
and then explore some of those things. And then I
1170
01:07:20.400 --> 01:07:23.199
tried getting them to and and once again it didn't
1171
01:07:23.239 --> 01:07:27.960
always work because some people are looking for that how
1172
01:07:27.960 --> 01:07:28.360
did I do?
1173
01:07:28.440 --> 01:07:30.360
Coach? How did they do? Did I do it right?
1174
01:07:31.199 --> 01:07:34.280
And and that's the struggle, right because you've got to.
1175
01:07:34.280 --> 01:07:38.000
Try and be that you're trying to be one version
1176
01:07:38.000 --> 01:07:42.719
of a coach, But you're you're you also have to
1177
01:07:42.760 --> 01:07:46.119
try and think about the safety of those people not
1178
01:07:46.239 --> 01:07:48.880
getting feedback, and there's only so much you can give
1179
01:07:48.920 --> 01:07:53.880
without it sort of you know, breaking the the methodology
1180
01:07:53.920 --> 01:07:56.840
that you're trying to create and then you're giving mixed
1181
01:07:56.840 --> 01:08:00.199
signals all the time. So it's that's the hard as
1182
01:08:00.199 --> 01:08:02.320
part of the coaching when you move to a sort
1183
01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:06.280
of an athlete or a learner centered environment, is how
1184
01:08:06.360 --> 01:08:09.159
much feedback should I give them? And am I just
1185
01:08:09.320 --> 01:08:12.679
pulling them back into that coach centered environment or am
1186
01:08:12.679 --> 01:08:16.520
I leaving them out to sort of flounder and panic
1187
01:08:16.600 --> 01:08:19.000
in a in a space where they feel that nobody's
1188
01:08:19.039 --> 01:08:22.239
giving them any real environment, in any real feedback. So
1189
01:08:22.600 --> 01:08:27.960
and not having the support staff that understand the concepts
1190
01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:32.560
of ecological dynamics and concepts of athletes sended environments that
1191
01:08:32.600 --> 01:08:35.680
didn't help as well. So that's that's always been a struggle,
1192
01:08:35.920 --> 01:08:39.479
and that's I think that's why coaches tend to move
1193
01:08:39.520 --> 01:08:42.720
away from this environment because they don't have the support
1194
01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:44.720
in the back end for all these things.
1195
01:08:45.680 --> 01:08:49.279
Did you inherit the your assistant coaches?
1196
01:08:51.199 --> 01:08:56.000
So that's a that's a very good question. So my
1197
01:08:56.359 --> 01:09:02.399
assistant coach so I sort of I do. I do.
1198
01:09:02.960 --> 01:09:05.319
I have an ice hockey academy as well.
1199
01:09:05.359 --> 01:09:07.560
So it's called down RG Ice Hockey, and what we
1200
01:09:07.640 --> 01:09:13.039
do in there is we develop movement solutions. So and
1201
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:17.760
one of my athletes by nice Canadian kid eighteen years
1202
01:09:17.760 --> 01:09:21.079
of age. I always chuckle because his dad sent him
1203
01:09:21.119 --> 01:09:24.000
to Australia to learn. He was playing in a house
1204
01:09:24.079 --> 01:09:27.640
league on third line. He came over to Australia to
1205
01:09:27.640 --> 01:09:29.680
see his dad because his dad worked at the university,
1206
01:09:30.399 --> 01:09:32.439
spent some time with When he went back, became the
1207
01:09:32.479 --> 01:09:35.960
captain of that team after spending a summer with me.
1208
01:09:36.079 --> 01:09:38.760
So I always joke that we're sending Canadians to Australia
1209
01:09:38.760 --> 01:09:49.319
to learn how to play hockey. Yes, so Kay's through
1210
01:09:49.359 --> 01:09:51.600
our seventeen year program because Kai's used to.
1211
01:09:52.560 --> 01:09:54.520
I like to think that Kai's used to my madness.
1212
01:09:55.800 --> 01:10:00.960
And he understands the He understands that that there's a.
1213
01:10:01.079 --> 01:10:03.640
Why in everything we do, and everything is intentional.
1214
01:10:04.079 --> 01:10:08.720
Whether he understands the why, that's something that he will
1215
01:10:08.800 --> 01:10:11.000
learn as he gets sort of older and spends more
1216
01:10:11.039 --> 01:10:14.199
time sort of exploring this space. But he understands that
1217
01:10:14.239 --> 01:10:16.960
there is an intent and he understands there is a
1218
01:10:17.000 --> 01:10:20.319
why to everything. So Kai helped me out with the
1219
01:10:20.359 --> 01:10:24.039
seventeen YU program, and then Kai was an assistant coach
1220
01:10:24.079 --> 01:10:26.560
with me on one of the state teams, so I
1221
01:10:26.640 --> 01:10:29.039
sort of made sure that And he is the Kay's
1222
01:10:29.079 --> 01:10:32.680
a lovely kid, and one of the things he brings
1223
01:10:32.800 --> 01:10:37.239
is that eighteen year old enthusiasm. A fifty five year
1224
01:10:37.239 --> 01:10:41.319
old man does not do that, so he brings that along.
1225
01:10:41.479 --> 01:10:42.840
So that worked really well.
1226
01:10:42.680 --> 01:10:44.520
In my favor from that perspective as well.
1227
01:10:45.119 --> 01:10:48.520
But once again, he only has he only has the
1228
01:10:48.560 --> 01:10:50.600
ability to be able to do what he can do,
1229
01:10:50.680 --> 01:10:54.119
and that's that's not a reflection on him, that's just
1230
01:10:54.199 --> 01:10:56.199
the time that he's spent doing this.
1231
01:10:58.399 --> 01:11:01.159
Yeah, so that's the reality of that.
1232
01:11:02.439 --> 01:11:06.560
You know, I documented what I wanted to do the
1233
01:11:06.680 --> 01:11:07.920
I don't think anybody read it.
1234
01:11:08.880 --> 01:11:12.760
I got asked for the for the one page version.
1235
01:11:12.960 --> 01:11:15.279
It's very difficult to turn a fifty four page document
1236
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:21.640
in a one page I ended up making a podcast
1237
01:11:22.399 --> 01:11:26.000
for them, so I created a podcast out of it,
1238
01:11:27.079 --> 01:11:29.119
and then they were allowed to listen to the podcast
1239
01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:31.000
in their car, which gave them the ability to be
1240
01:11:31.039 --> 01:11:33.840
able to listen to the approach as opposed to having
1241
01:11:33.920 --> 01:11:36.359
to read the approach and that got quite good feedback.
1242
01:11:36.359 --> 01:11:39.279
So we did quite a few different sort of AI
1243
01:11:39.359 --> 01:11:43.000
based podcasts that would tear out the information and give
1244
01:11:43.039 --> 01:11:45.760
them the understanding of what ecological dynamics was, what the
1245
01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:49.079
pathway was, what was the methodology in those things.
1246
01:11:49.279 --> 01:11:50.159
I think that helped.
1247
01:11:51.760 --> 01:11:55.399
Yeah, So sort of leveraging technology was something that sort
1248
01:11:55.439 --> 01:11:57.319
of we looked at from that perspective to be able
1249
01:11:57.359 --> 01:11:59.680
to assist athletes that weren't probably going to read a
1250
01:11:59.680 --> 01:12:02.199
fifty four page Men notebook.
1251
01:12:02.279 --> 01:12:03.119
LM.
1252
01:12:04.079 --> 01:12:06.720
Yes, one hundred percent. I would swear by. That's The
1253
01:12:06.840 --> 01:12:08.760
podcast version is just to die.
1254
01:12:08.680 --> 01:12:12.640
For, absolutely amazing. They've got a new feature actually which
1255
01:12:12.680 --> 01:12:17.520
I was using recently. They create really really high quality
1256
01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:20.119
infographics and also slide debts.
1257
01:12:20.560 --> 01:12:26.640
So I did some studio version as well. Yeah, yeah, awesome.
1258
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:31.159
I've I've just done some stuff for youiously Hockey actually
1259
01:12:31.319 --> 01:12:34.840
which around task decomposition versus task simplification, because they were
1260
01:12:34.880 --> 01:12:37.199
running a clinic and they reached out to me to say,
1261
01:12:37.199 --> 01:12:38.800
I have you've got anything on this, and I was like, yeah,
1262
01:12:38.800 --> 01:12:41.159
I could probably put some into gel the Bungo there
1263
01:12:41.199 --> 01:12:43.640
it is, Wow, look at this slide sent them across.
1264
01:12:44.760 --> 01:12:46.960
But yeah, I mean the way it actually creates stuff
1265
01:12:46.960 --> 01:12:52.199
from relatively short prompts really quite powerful anyway. So what
1266
01:12:52.319 --> 01:12:56.680
Kai doesn't realize, of course, is he's actually now getting
1267
01:12:56.800 --> 01:12:59.800
probably one of the best coaching apprenticeships that you're ever
1268
01:12:59.880 --> 01:13:03.319
like to get without realizing, right being involved in the madness.
1269
01:13:03.359 --> 01:13:05.039
So just as you, as you rightly say.
1270
01:13:05.800 --> 01:13:08.880
Yeah, well it is, everyone just thinks you're a lunatic
1271
01:13:08.960 --> 01:13:13.119
sometimes you know, you haven't. Yeah, you know, but I'm
1272
01:13:13.119 --> 01:13:15.159
just letting the animals out and they're just kicking the
1273
01:13:15.199 --> 01:13:17.920
puck around on one end, and on alls I'm doing
1274
01:13:17.960 --> 01:13:19.640
is making sure no one gets hurt. I think that
1275
01:13:19.760 --> 01:13:22.560
was that was certainly one of the things that a
1276
01:13:22.680 --> 01:13:25.239
parent said to me. Once you you are I mean,
1277
01:13:25.439 --> 01:13:27.720
if you're doing anything, you're at least making sure they don't.
1278
01:13:27.520 --> 01:13:33.319
Get hurt, right, Yes, that's the only reason I'm here.
1279
01:13:36.680 --> 01:13:39.520
Well, the the interesting thing I would just just to
1280
01:13:39.520 --> 01:13:44.479
sort of reflect on that a little bit is how
1281
01:13:45.600 --> 01:13:47.880
having a fifty four page document in the first place,
1282
01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:53.319
you know whatever, just as an articulation of your philosophy,
1283
01:13:53.760 --> 01:13:58.960
and from the get go making that explicit and clear
1284
01:13:59.039 --> 01:14:03.640
to the athletes is a really interesting area. I've noticed
1285
01:14:03.680 --> 01:14:09.720
this with ecological practitioners that I speak to is there's
1286
01:14:09.720 --> 01:14:16.439
a need to be explicit about the method because it's
1287
01:14:16.479 --> 01:14:22.199
it's what's the word, it's seen as being sort of
1288
01:14:22.319 --> 01:14:27.039
quite avant garde or quite different, and therefore people come
1289
01:14:27.079 --> 01:14:30.079
in it and can sometimes look a little bit sideways
1290
01:14:30.119 --> 01:14:32.319
at it, and you know that what's going on here
1291
01:14:32.359 --> 01:14:34.039
this is a bit So there's a need to be that.
1292
01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:37.159
But equally, I think whether or not you were coming
1293
01:14:37.159 --> 01:14:40.479
from an ecological perspective or not, I imagine you would
1294
01:14:40.520 --> 01:14:43.520
have someone of that because of your belief in the
1295
01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:48.239
need for the learner to understand the why. As you
1296
01:14:48.319 --> 01:14:51.039
quite rightly say, you know, I often used to refer
1297
01:14:51.119 --> 01:14:55.640
to selling the why, but it's the learner being actively
1298
01:14:55.840 --> 01:15:00.199
an active learner. They have to genuinely understand where or
1299
01:15:00.239 --> 01:15:04.680
coming from in their journey. Otherwise they can actually feel
1300
01:15:05.079 --> 01:15:08.520
like they're being Again, it goes back to that point
1301
01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:11.600
about destabilization. They can feel cut adrift, like they're in
1302
01:15:11.600 --> 01:15:16.239
the wilderness and they're struggling along and it feels really uncomforted,
1303
01:15:16.319 --> 01:15:21.319
so uncomfortable to them that it's actually almost I'm not
1304
01:15:21.319 --> 01:15:23.840
gonna say trauma is an overused word, but it can
1305
01:15:23.880 --> 01:15:25.439
be feel a little traumatic to them.
1306
01:15:25.479 --> 01:15:27.119
No, I agree, I agree. I think it is that.
1307
01:15:27.159 --> 01:15:28.239
I think it is the right word.
1308
01:15:28.359 --> 01:15:31.880
I think it's a measure of how they feel at
1309
01:15:31.920 --> 01:15:36.720
the time, and and they feel helpless, and that's that happens.
1310
01:15:36.880 --> 01:15:40.720
You know, we won, We won a game ten mil
1311
01:15:40.800 --> 01:15:48.239
and I had three girls leave the bench crying. Yeah, well,
1312
01:15:48.680 --> 01:15:51.840
and that that's something that was new to me.
1313
01:15:53.960 --> 01:15:56.119
Uh, that was something that was new.
1314
01:15:57.039 --> 01:15:59.560
And then I had to try and navigate that to
1315
01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:03.560
understand and that and that's just emotion. And that's not
1316
01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:05.840
being able to regulate your emotion. And I don't think
1317
01:16:05.840 --> 01:16:10.840
they were crying from winning. They were, you know sometimes
1318
01:16:11.279 --> 01:16:13.119
So I have this belief roll when you play in
1319
01:16:13.159 --> 01:16:15.119
a team, not everyone.
1320
01:16:14.800 --> 01:16:18.439
Is the scorer, right, It's not everyone's a striker, right.
1321
01:16:18.520 --> 01:16:21.760
We know this, But in a.
1322
01:16:21.760 --> 01:16:26.560
Game where the only measure you really have is bus
1323
01:16:26.560 --> 01:16:30.520
and minuses goals for and goals against, some people feel
1324
01:16:30.520 --> 01:16:33.359
that they don't put any you know, they're not involved,
1325
01:16:33.920 --> 01:16:37.159
even though you look at their their structure and they
1326
01:16:37.239 --> 01:16:39.159
didn't have any goals scored on them. And then it's
1327
01:16:39.199 --> 01:16:42.640
such a fast based game, it's such a chaotic game.
1328
01:16:42.680 --> 01:16:44.399
It's very easy to score a goal.
1329
01:16:44.479 --> 01:16:47.600
If the team is not not aware, if their intent
1330
01:16:47.760 --> 01:16:50.439
is not to if their intent isn't to stop you,
1331
01:16:50.439 --> 01:16:53.199
you're scoring goals. That's that's just the nature of this game,
1332
01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:56.079
how fast it plays, the small ice that we're on,
1333
01:16:56.720 --> 01:17:01.600
the amount of distance you cover in such very short times.
1334
01:17:02.079 --> 01:17:06.159
If your intent is is not to stop goals being scored,
1335
01:17:06.239 --> 01:17:10.279
you score goals. So and they didn't understand this, So
1336
01:17:10.319 --> 01:17:12.680
they felt that they failed the team because of the
1337
01:17:12.720 --> 01:17:16.640
fact is that they didn't have they weren't scoring, they
1338
01:17:16.680 --> 01:17:20.079
weren't on the board. So and that was the pressure
1339
01:17:20.079 --> 01:17:22.640
that they put themselves in. And that's the that's the
1340
01:17:23.079 --> 01:17:25.680
feeling that they had, and that's the emotion that came
1341
01:17:25.720 --> 01:17:29.319
out that they were distressed from this. They felt they'd failed,
1342
01:17:29.680 --> 01:17:31.880
They felt that they weren't being heard. They didn't feel
1343
01:17:31.920 --> 01:17:34.840
they got feedback enough. And maybe the feedback that I
1344
01:17:34.840 --> 01:17:39.000
could have given them would have changed the course of
1345
01:17:39.039 --> 01:17:42.000
the game. And they may have scored more goals because
1346
01:17:42.039 --> 01:17:44.359
of feedback that I may or may not have given them.
1347
01:17:45.039 --> 01:17:47.560
If I'd structured it more and told them what to do,
1348
01:17:47.600 --> 01:17:50.159
they may have been able to score more goals. So
1349
01:17:50.199 --> 01:17:52.159
these are the things that they go through from that
1350
01:17:52.479 --> 01:17:57.239
sort of that learner based sort of psychological understanding. And
1351
01:17:57.720 --> 01:18:01.600
once again I don't feel we do enough in educating
1352
01:18:01.680 --> 01:18:06.039
coaches in that space. We certainly there were some new
1353
01:18:06.079 --> 01:18:08.239
things that I learned there. And it doesn't matter how
1354
01:18:08.319 --> 01:18:10.079
much research you do, It doesn't.
1355
01:18:09.880 --> 01:18:12.039
Matter how much you know reading you do.
1356
01:18:12.159 --> 01:18:15.520
This is something that happens, and it's something that you know,
1357
01:18:15.600 --> 01:18:18.960
you've got to manage. And when you have no support staff.
1358
01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:20.640
And it's not that I didn't have support stuff. I
1359
01:18:20.680 --> 01:18:24.680
didn't have support stuff that understood what was happening. That happens,
1360
01:18:24.800 --> 01:18:27.399
and then you've got to try and navigate that as well.
1361
01:18:27.720 --> 01:18:32.600
So yeah, it's it's different from coaching the women to
1362
01:18:32.720 --> 01:18:36.279
coaching STAY seventeen. You where you know predominantly or boys,
1363
01:18:38.199 --> 01:18:43.439
your structures different. They're not after, they're not after feedback,
1364
01:18:43.479 --> 01:18:47.439
per say. What they want is information. They want more information.
1365
01:18:48.159 --> 01:18:50.319
I know, what did that look like? What else could
1366
01:18:50.359 --> 01:18:53.520
I have done? And then you can interact with them differently.
1367
01:18:53.560 --> 01:18:58.439
They're asking you questions. I feel sometimes in the women's
1368
01:18:58.439 --> 01:19:01.119
teams they don't want to ask questions because they're terrified
1369
01:19:01.119 --> 01:19:03.760
of the answer they may be given, or that that
1370
01:19:04.159 --> 01:19:08.479
question might show that they don't understand or that question
1371
01:19:08.680 --> 01:19:10.600
may put them in a position where the coach may
1372
01:19:10.640 --> 01:19:13.680
be disappointed in the question. And I feel that's something
1373
01:19:13.760 --> 01:19:17.239
that coaches need to learn that that's if we pre
1374
01:19:17.279 --> 01:19:19.720
had an environment that that's how they feel, we will
1375
01:19:19.760 --> 01:19:21.640
never get anyone becoming autonomous.
1376
01:19:21.920 --> 01:19:25.000
They'll just be robots and we'll just be controlling them
1377
01:19:25.000 --> 01:19:25.560
from the bench.
1378
01:19:26.920 --> 01:19:30.359
There's there's going back to your point earlier on there's
1379
01:19:30.399 --> 01:19:33.640
safety in not having a la, in having a lack
1380
01:19:33.680 --> 01:19:38.680
of autonomy. When when when you are purely and simply
1381
01:19:39.199 --> 01:19:44.239
the you know an object to be utilized by another,
1382
01:19:44.960 --> 01:19:47.279
then actually you don't have to get too emotionally involved
1383
01:19:47.279 --> 01:19:50.520
in it, and you can you can just almost like
1384
01:19:50.680 --> 01:19:54.800
outsource some of your emotion to the controller. And I
1385
01:19:54.840 --> 01:20:02.439
can understand how somebody who is very of enculturated to
1386
01:20:02.560 --> 01:20:07.520
that way of being would find becoming more emotionally invested
1387
01:20:08.359 --> 01:20:13.159
and psychologically invested in an activity would raise their awareness
1388
01:20:13.239 --> 01:20:16.720
of whether they feel like they're making the right contribution
1389
01:20:16.880 --> 01:20:19.119
or making enough of a contribution or not, which would
1390
01:20:19.159 --> 01:20:23.199
then lead to emotional overload. I bet it was a
1391
01:20:23.520 --> 01:20:26.880
surprising to them as it was to you that that happened.
1392
01:20:28.000 --> 01:20:35.000
Yes, yes, and that's that's one hundred percent. When you're autonomous,
1393
01:20:35.600 --> 01:20:39.079
you wear the failure personally.
1394
01:20:39.640 --> 01:20:44.159
Yeah, when you're being controlled by another, that failure is
1395
01:20:44.199 --> 01:20:48.640
somebody else's. Yes, they told me to do it, yes so.
1396
01:20:50.600 --> 01:20:52.640
And that's where you've got to start looking at. How
1397
01:20:52.640 --> 01:20:55.439
do you teach athletes to self regulate their emotions, How
1398
01:20:55.439 --> 01:20:58.079
to understand what failure looks like, how to understand what
1399
01:20:58.239 --> 01:21:02.760
safety looks like in failure, how to understand that I'm
1400
01:21:02.800 --> 01:21:06.079
happy to walk away in a game, whether we win
1401
01:21:06.159 --> 01:21:09.960
or we lose, but I'm not happy to walk away
1402
01:21:09.960 --> 01:21:13.319
from a game that nobody sort of tried, that nobody
1403
01:21:13.359 --> 01:21:17.239
put the you know, their second effort in that nobody
1404
01:21:17.279 --> 01:21:21.720
put they didn't, they didn't try and explore. Those are
1405
01:21:21.720 --> 01:21:25.079
the things that we as coaches are really looking for.
1406
01:21:25.399 --> 01:21:29.119
That's what I look for. The scoreboard just tells me,
1407
01:21:29.560 --> 01:21:31.520
you know, it just tells me a number. That's all
1408
01:21:31.520 --> 01:21:35.399
it does. The intent on how we played is the
1409
01:21:35.399 --> 01:21:38.640
most important part to me. And like I said, I
1410
01:21:38.640 --> 01:21:41.399
wouldn't care if we lost every game. It's an indicator,
1411
01:21:41.439 --> 01:21:43.359
that's all it is. It's just numbers for me. It
1412
01:21:43.479 --> 01:21:47.520
just tells me whether my partway, whether the trainings match
1413
01:21:47.640 --> 01:21:49.920
the game that we want to play. It does nothing
1414
01:21:49.960 --> 01:21:53.159
else but give me feedback on whether I need to
1415
01:21:53.560 --> 01:21:56.680
change the environment, whether I need to adjust for different things,
1416
01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.199
whether I have to think about different things. That's all
1417
01:21:59.199 --> 01:22:01.199
the scoreboard does for me. In the games like this,
1418
01:22:02.880 --> 01:22:04.960
The most important part for me is to develop a
1419
01:22:05.039 --> 01:22:08.840
team through the through the twenty weeks before we get
1420
01:22:08.880 --> 01:22:12.680
to finals, that is prepared and ready to play the
1421
01:22:12.760 --> 01:22:15.960
game that we want to play. So that's that's the
1422
01:22:16.039 --> 01:22:18.479
reality of this. And I know, and I know that
1423
01:22:18.520 --> 01:22:21.279
may sound you know, at a high level coaching, that
1424
01:22:21.359 --> 01:22:24.479
may sound odd, But once again, I'm looking for data.
1425
01:22:24.520 --> 01:22:27.720
I'm looking for feedback. I'm looking for information from the environment.
1426
01:22:28.000 --> 01:22:31.319
And that means whether was the intent? Did we score goals?
1427
01:22:31.359 --> 01:22:33.199
Did we not score goals? Why didn't we score goals?
1428
01:22:33.239 --> 01:22:35.239
Was it our pressure? Were we fast enough?
1429
01:22:35.359 --> 01:22:35.560
Was that?
1430
01:22:35.920 --> 01:22:38.079
What were the things that were our rate limiters in
1431
01:22:38.159 --> 01:22:40.600
this that I can then look at from a developmental
1432
01:22:40.600 --> 01:22:45.720
pathway and start creating environments, start creating tasks that expose
1433
01:22:45.920 --> 01:22:50.199
those problems for us to then find solutions for so
1434
01:22:50.239 --> 01:22:53.119
then when those problems arise again, they'll have solutions for
1435
01:22:53.159 --> 01:22:54.359
them when they step back on the ice.
1436
01:22:56.279 --> 01:23:03.600
It seems to me that that sort of emotional overload
1437
01:23:05.039 --> 01:23:10.159
would be an indicator that you're doing something right. If
1438
01:23:10.159 --> 01:23:13.199
you didn't get that, you maybe ask yourself, am I
1439
01:23:13.920 --> 01:23:17.640
you know? Am I doing it right? Because you I
1440
01:23:17.640 --> 01:23:20.520
guess to a certain extent, I'm just reflecting allowed really
1441
01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:24.640
that you would if you haven't got people emotionally and
1442
01:23:24.680 --> 01:23:30.119
psychologically invested in the learning process and they are disassociated,
1443
01:23:30.359 --> 01:23:33.720
then you they wouldn't have that kind of emotional response
1444
01:23:33.720 --> 01:23:35.840
to the fact you're getting some of that should be
1445
01:23:36.079 --> 01:23:38.520
I think an indicator, as much as it's difficult to
1446
01:23:38.560 --> 01:23:41.680
deal with that. Actually, we're on a good journey here.
1447
01:23:42.079 --> 01:23:44.199
People are starting to buy into this. People are starting
1448
01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:48.640
to feel something about it, which is an interesting view
1449
01:23:49.119 --> 01:23:50.079
or observation.
1450
01:23:50.159 --> 01:23:55.239
Perhaps, yeah, it is, And that's generally what you know
1451
01:23:56.000 --> 01:23:59.239
because once again I've gone data driven. So I go
1452
01:23:59.319 --> 01:24:01.279
back to and and I read about it, and I
1453
01:24:01.359 --> 01:24:03.560
make sure that I understand it, and I make sure
1454
01:24:03.600 --> 01:24:06.840
that I'm prepared because that's a problem I need to
1455
01:24:06.880 --> 01:24:10.279
solve right. And even as a coach, I have to
1456
01:24:10.319 --> 01:24:13.840
think about this ecologically as well. I have to create
1457
01:24:13.920 --> 01:24:16.600
environments of safety, but I also have to create environments
1458
01:24:16.640 --> 01:24:20.399
where they struggle. I have to create environments where they're challenged.
1459
01:24:20.439 --> 01:24:22.319
I have to create environments where they're going to have
1460
01:24:22.439 --> 01:24:24.560
to think their way out of this. I'm going to
1461
01:24:24.600 --> 01:24:27.239
have to create environments that are going to show up
1462
01:24:27.279 --> 01:24:29.680
in the type of game that we want to play,
1463
01:24:29.720 --> 01:24:34.079
and I need them to be prepared. And in doing that,
1464
01:24:36.479 --> 01:24:40.399
you get tears and you get emotions, and you get frustration,
1465
01:24:40.760 --> 01:24:44.520
and you get those things because the reality is they
1466
01:24:44.600 --> 01:24:47.319
bought in and they care, so those are things that
1467
01:24:47.319 --> 01:24:49.920
they care that they fail. And I guess that we
1468
01:24:50.039 --> 01:24:53.520
don't as coaches, we probably don't understand enough about that.
1469
01:24:54.000 --> 01:24:54.640
I think if.
1470
01:24:56.119 --> 01:24:58.720
I was to do a coaching course and it was
1471
01:24:58.800 --> 01:25:03.199
going to be on sort of nominear, I was going
1472
01:25:03.279 --> 01:25:06.079
to say, that's the umbrella name for all these different
1473
01:25:06.119 --> 01:25:09.880
philosophies and sort of pedagogy under this one thing. Part
1474
01:25:09.920 --> 01:25:11.840
of that would be I would probably start in a
1475
01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:14.880
very linear process, which is sad, but I would start
1476
01:25:14.920 --> 01:25:17.680
with an athlete centered environment and what that looks like,
1477
01:25:18.000 --> 01:25:20.079
because how can you and I've said this before, how
1478
01:25:20.079 --> 01:25:23.199
can you ask someone to be autonomous when they don't
1479
01:25:23.199 --> 01:25:24.920
know what that looks like, when they don't know what
1480
01:25:24.960 --> 01:25:26.880
that's supposed to feel like, well, they don't know what
1481
01:25:27.520 --> 01:25:30.720
their expectation is. They don't know what your expectation is.
1482
01:25:31.960 --> 01:25:36.359
How can you ask someone to explore when exploration in
1483
01:25:36.399 --> 01:25:42.039
the past has been beaten out of them. They're being
1484
01:25:42.079 --> 01:25:43.640
told what to do, and now they're going to an
1485
01:25:43.680 --> 01:25:45.479
environment where no one is telling them what to do
1486
01:25:45.520 --> 01:25:48.760
in the in the moment. Those are the things that
1487
01:25:48.840 --> 01:25:52.159
I would focus on. And I've got a you know,
1488
01:25:52.520 --> 01:25:54.199
I haven't done my Level four and I haven't done
1489
01:25:54.239 --> 01:25:57.760
my Level five with USA Hockey. Hopefully they're going to
1490
01:25:57.760 --> 01:26:00.119
be talking about what a learner environment looks like, and
1491
01:26:00.119 --> 01:26:02.720
hopefully they're they're going to be that, because I think
1492
01:26:02.760 --> 01:26:05.359
that's the biggest thing that as a coach I struggled
1493
01:26:05.359 --> 01:26:10.239
with from that perspective is understanding the safety nets, the
1494
01:26:10.319 --> 01:26:14.199
scaffolding and the and the who's going to protect the
1495
01:26:14.279 --> 01:26:16.239
athletes from themselves in this space?
1496
01:26:16.279 --> 01:26:17.159
Who's going to give.
1497
01:26:17.039 --> 01:26:21.399
Them the I guess that that belief that everything is
1498
01:26:21.399 --> 01:26:25.439
on track other than myself, and and I'm the guy
1499
01:26:25.479 --> 01:26:27.199
creating all the all the madness.
1500
01:26:29.079 --> 01:26:33.079
So it's it's it's like taking a cage tiger from
1501
01:26:33.119 --> 01:26:35.159
a zoo and putting them in the jungle and going
1502
01:26:35.199 --> 01:26:41.680
now you're free. That's just that's just it's just as
1503
01:26:41.760 --> 01:26:44.199
dangerous to that individual has the other way around.
1504
01:26:45.000 --> 01:26:46.520
And I couldn't put it better myself.
1505
01:26:46.560 --> 01:26:51.239
That is exactly exactly how it is, you know, and
1506
01:26:51.880 --> 01:26:56.079
that that should be a course in itself. It should
1507
01:26:56.119 --> 01:26:59.840
be a course in itself. You know, you've got to
1508
01:26:59.840 --> 01:27:01.920
tea You've got to teach that line to hunt again.
1509
01:27:02.600 --> 01:27:05.880
Yeah, you know, yeah, I actually think that is You're right.
1510
01:27:05.920 --> 01:27:08.039
I think that is a course in itself for people
1511
01:27:08.439 --> 01:27:13.119
who are attracted towards a more non linear approach towards
1512
01:27:13.239 --> 01:27:17.840
or athlete athlete centered approach towards environment design, et cetera,
1513
01:27:17.880 --> 01:27:23.560
et cetera. Understanding what it takes to take a group
1514
01:27:24.199 --> 01:27:28.279
who are cage tigers, so to speak, and let them
1515
01:27:28.720 --> 01:27:30.840
move into that sort of jungle experience in the process
1516
01:27:30.880 --> 01:27:34.000
you go through to enable them to become hunter killers
1517
01:27:34.560 --> 01:27:37.520
is a big, big area that needs a lot of exploration.
1518
01:27:37.600 --> 01:27:39.760
I don't think there's I don't think it's a course necessarily,
1519
01:27:39.800 --> 01:27:42.359
but it's the sort of thing that we could actively
1520
01:27:42.399 --> 01:27:46.279
work towards. Interestingly enough, actually, it's a central conversation, a
1521
01:27:46.319 --> 01:27:50.079
recurring conversation within the learning group that I have which
1522
01:27:50.159 --> 01:27:52.520
I call the guild. We talk about this stuff a
1523
01:27:52.520 --> 01:27:56.239
lot because most people are experiencing this and it's the
1524
01:27:56.359 --> 01:28:00.000
journey that actually we're learning from each other on. You know,
1525
01:28:00.039 --> 01:28:02.520
I sort of facilitate the conversation, but it's generally speaking
1526
01:28:02.560 --> 01:28:04.960
to tend to be the theme that it emerges quite often.
1527
01:28:07.600 --> 01:28:08.159
Yeah, it's.
1528
01:28:09.560 --> 01:28:14.439
It was certainly, it's certainly eye opening. You know, you
1529
01:28:14.479 --> 01:28:17.079
think you're doing a lot, but you don't. Sometimes you're
1530
01:28:17.079 --> 01:28:19.600
not just doing enough. I created a I created an
1531
01:28:19.640 --> 01:28:22.800
environment where that line gets to where the tiger gets
1532
01:28:22.840 --> 01:28:25.760
to learn to hunt. I created an environment where they
1533
01:28:25.760 --> 01:28:27.680
get to hunt in an environment that I am setting
1534
01:28:27.680 --> 01:28:29.720
out for them. I get to teach them all this,
1535
01:28:30.159 --> 01:28:32.239
but I don't get them. I don't give them an
1536
01:28:32.279 --> 01:28:35.720
opportunity to understand what the safety of that looks like
1537
01:28:35.800 --> 01:28:38.119
and where they feel safe to themselves and are they
1538
01:28:38.159 --> 01:28:41.560
lonely in that one singular space and that is everybody
1539
01:28:41.560 --> 01:28:45.439
else thinking that. So those are things that we really
1540
01:28:45.439 --> 01:28:46.960
need to sort of spend more time in. And I
1541
01:28:46.960 --> 01:28:49.039
think that's you know, when you look at what the
1542
01:28:50.319 --> 01:28:53.159
national programs, USA Hockey and all these guys do, they
1543
01:28:53.159 --> 01:28:55.520
teach you about constraint that approach. They teach you about
1544
01:28:55.520 --> 01:28:58.600
the golden thread, they teach you about constraint that approach,
1545
01:28:58.960 --> 01:29:04.359
and I feel that you can't really get the true constraint,
1546
01:29:04.399 --> 01:29:06.920
that the con true cla, the con true, that the
1547
01:29:06.920 --> 01:29:09.680
true exploration, the true of these things with people are
1548
01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:13.399
doing these things and still wondering what failure and fear
1549
01:29:13.439 --> 01:29:17.399
looks like. And I don't know whether that's something that
1550
01:29:18.199 --> 01:29:21.399
will change with time. The more people doing the sort
1551
01:29:21.399 --> 01:29:24.680
of the cla, the more people looking at the nonlinear approach,
1552
01:29:24.760 --> 01:29:27.840
the more people involved in this, maybe that conversation becomes
1553
01:29:28.399 --> 01:29:33.199
more a sort of a conversation between many as opposed
1554
01:29:33.199 --> 01:29:34.520
to a conversation between few.
1555
01:29:35.359 --> 01:29:38.760
Yeah, as good as the coach education program that you
1556
01:29:38.760 --> 01:29:40.800
woul say, Hockey provide, and it is good, It is
1557
01:29:40.880 --> 01:29:44.079
really good. You know. I've said this to them before
1558
01:29:44.119 --> 01:29:45.560
that you know, I think they're one of the world
1559
01:29:45.600 --> 01:29:49.800
leading organizations when it comes to this. They also recognize
1560
01:29:49.840 --> 01:29:53.840
that coach education is limited in terms of its utility
1561
01:29:53.880 --> 01:29:57.439
because you're learning, you're getting knowledge about something, not necessarily
1562
01:29:57.520 --> 01:30:01.079
knowledge of something. You're you've taken your knowledge about it,
1563
01:30:01.359 --> 01:30:03.560
applied it to your context, and now you're gaining the
1564
01:30:03.640 --> 01:30:07.640
knowledge of as you as you explore what the utilization
1565
01:30:07.840 --> 01:30:09.720
is with this cohort group. It's one of the reasons
1566
01:30:09.760 --> 01:30:12.640
I advocate a lot in my work in coach development
1567
01:30:12.840 --> 01:30:17.439
for more people to have access to people who have
1568
01:30:17.560 --> 01:30:20.039
more of an understanding of their context, because then you've
1569
01:30:20.039 --> 01:30:23.479
got somebody giving you guidance and support based on your
1570
01:30:23.479 --> 01:30:26.880
own experiences, because that's the one thing coach education can
1571
01:30:26.920 --> 01:30:30.039
never do. It can never understand your context fully, and
1572
01:30:30.079 --> 01:30:32.479
that's where the real power comes in. So I'd like
1573
01:30:32.520 --> 01:30:37.000
to see a coach education paradigm shift which take which goes, yes,
1574
01:30:37.039 --> 01:30:38.560
we'll give you the knowledge of, but we're also going
1575
01:30:38.560 --> 01:30:41.079
to give you the knowledge in, sorry, not the knowledge about,
1576
01:30:41.079 --> 01:30:42.680
as well as the knowledge of and the knowledge.
1577
01:30:42.399 --> 01:30:43.760
In because we will we will.
1578
01:30:43.840 --> 01:30:46.840
We will help you on a learning journey that's focused
1579
01:30:46.880 --> 01:30:48.279
around your context.
1580
01:30:49.760 --> 01:30:52.840
I think with I think with the USA Hockey there
1581
01:30:53.560 --> 01:30:57.079
their belief is that you're going to take that information
1582
01:30:57.159 --> 01:30:58.880
and you're going to explore it yourself. I guess that
1583
01:30:59.199 --> 01:31:03.119
you know there is they're promoting coaches are teaching exploration.
1584
01:31:03.319 --> 01:31:07.239
They would probably hope that their coaches are exploring I
1585
01:31:07.279 --> 01:31:10.600
mean it's yeah, I mean, you can't be the tour
1586
01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:13.840
guide and not actually see what you're touring around. So
1587
01:31:13.880 --> 01:31:15.800
you get to actually see all those things and you
1588
01:31:15.840 --> 01:31:18.159
get to understand those things. And I guess that was
1589
01:31:18.199 --> 01:31:22.399
something that I enjoyed a lot. I felt that starting
1590
01:31:22.479 --> 01:31:24.680
using that as a platform to work forward from an
1591
01:31:24.760 --> 01:31:27.439
understanding where that could take me, it would allow me
1592
01:31:27.520 --> 01:31:29.640
to explore that more.
1593
01:31:29.720 --> 01:31:30.640
And I feel that.
1594
01:31:32.640 --> 01:31:36.600
Having that expectation and exploring the process more and having
1595
01:31:36.600 --> 01:31:39.199
it more of an understanding, and I sort of moved,
1596
01:31:39.840 --> 01:31:42.239
and I joke about this, but I moved from being
1597
01:31:42.319 --> 01:31:47.119
a coach to more being a scientist where I made
1598
01:31:47.439 --> 01:31:50.960
multiple versions of the same thing in different scenarios to
1599
01:31:51.000 --> 01:31:55.239
see which one would trigger events, which one would change outcomes,
1600
01:31:55.279 --> 01:31:59.720
which one would work differently, And then I'm looking for
1601
01:32:00.199 --> 01:32:03.720
that environmental feedback to tell me, well, did I get
1602
01:32:04.159 --> 01:32:04.760
a better.
1603
01:32:04.600 --> 01:32:05.319
Outcome with this?
1604
01:32:05.479 --> 01:32:08.239
Did I see them more towards the sort of the
1605
01:32:08.279 --> 01:32:09.840
spotlighting that I was looking for.
1606
01:32:10.159 --> 01:32:12.000
So I feel that's sort of what I do a
1607
01:32:12.000 --> 01:32:12.319
lot of.
1608
01:32:12.399 --> 01:32:15.000
I do a lot of sort of you know, run
1609
01:32:15.039 --> 01:32:17.800
two teams, had one team, there's a different version, one
1610
01:32:17.800 --> 01:32:21.119
team's traditional, the other teams ecological. Run them together and
1611
01:32:21.159 --> 01:32:23.000
see what that what that looks like and see which
1612
01:32:23.039 --> 01:32:25.319
one worked, which one didn't work, and do a lot
1613
01:32:25.359 --> 01:32:28.119
of those things because that's exploration. And I think coaches
1614
01:32:28.159 --> 01:32:30.680
have to feel uncomfortable in their learning as well, otherwise
1615
01:32:30.680 --> 01:32:33.680
they're just doing the same thing they did yesterday.
1616
01:32:33.840 --> 01:32:36.039
I mean, that's a perfect example. I think that's exactly
1617
01:32:36.079 --> 01:32:38.279
how I think of it as well. You're essentially where
1618
01:32:38.279 --> 01:32:40.880
every time you run a practice, you're testing a hypothesis,
1619
01:32:41.279 --> 01:32:44.039
and in the session you might make adjustments because you're
1620
01:32:44.039 --> 01:32:46.720
getting sort of experimental data that's coming back. It isn't
1621
01:32:47.159 --> 01:32:50.079
corresponding with what your hypothesis was, so you tweak it
1622
01:32:50.079 --> 01:32:52.359
and you amend it live in the session, and then
1623
01:32:52.439 --> 01:32:55.439
over time, session to session to session, activity to activity
1624
01:32:55.479 --> 01:32:58.800
to activity, you're refining what is your original hypothesis and
1625
01:32:58.840 --> 01:33:01.880
your original experiment to improve it, make it better, and
1626
01:33:02.000 --> 01:33:04.800
sometimes because of the variability of humans, you have to
1627
01:33:04.880 --> 01:33:07.239
make adjustments even though you reckon you've got the recipe
1628
01:33:07.319 --> 01:33:08.199
rate in the first.
1629
01:33:07.920 --> 01:33:12.319
Instance, well, and you could have the recipe right on Tuesday,
1630
01:33:12.800 --> 01:33:18.279
but in four tuesdays time they've evolved, pressure has changed,
1631
01:33:18.760 --> 01:33:21.359
the environment's changed, they've worked, they've worked out how to
1632
01:33:21.439 --> 01:33:26.960
cheat the constraint. I have one athlete Olivia del Basso.
1633
01:33:27.439 --> 01:33:32.479
She is a brilliant player. She just she is an
1634
01:33:32.479 --> 01:33:38.399
outstanding player, and she will break a constraint within the
1635
01:33:38.439 --> 01:33:42.319
first five seconds. I will set a constraint where they
1636
01:33:42.359 --> 01:33:45.079
have to sort of, you know, we do this task.
1637
01:33:45.119 --> 01:33:47.279
I call it the Olivia del Basso because I name
1638
01:33:47.359 --> 01:33:50.159
them all the tasks after the girls. So each each
1639
01:33:50.199 --> 01:33:52.399
girl has two or three tasks each right, and the
1640
01:33:52.439 --> 01:33:55.439
tasks are based around what they do really well. So
1641
01:33:55.680 --> 01:33:59.279
it allows me to be able to share their knowledge
1642
01:33:59.279 --> 01:34:01.199
in a task, but everyone else gets to play it
1643
01:34:02.239 --> 01:34:04.119
and then they get to watch Olivia do it because
1644
01:34:04.119 --> 01:34:05.920
that's what Olivia does well, and then they get to
1645
01:34:05.960 --> 01:34:08.279
replicate that, so they not only get to see the
1646
01:34:08.319 --> 01:34:10.880
feedback live, they get to see what that could be
1647
01:34:10.920 --> 01:34:11.680
done a different way.
1648
01:34:11.720 --> 01:34:13.199
They get to explore and experiment.
1649
01:34:13.720 --> 01:34:16.800
So this one task is that you two people, so
1650
01:34:16.880 --> 01:34:18.600
one v one, you skate up, you grab the puck,
1651
01:34:18.800 --> 01:34:21.880
and then you actually have to You have opposite tracks,
1652
01:34:21.880 --> 01:34:24.319
so you've got to break into the ice to you
1653
01:34:24.359 --> 01:34:26.479
and you've got two opposite players. So that means that
1654
01:34:26.520 --> 01:34:30.039
if I go this way, I'm attacking a defender. So
1655
01:34:31.359 --> 01:34:33.279
that's all you got to do. Quick pass gad to puck,
1656
01:34:33.399 --> 01:34:36.319
skate in, beat the outside, past to the middle, get
1657
01:34:36.319 --> 01:34:38.800
the puck. It's a pretty simple task. It rolls pretty well,
1658
01:34:39.239 --> 01:34:42.159
it's nice and fast. There's lots of changes, lots of
1659
01:34:42.199 --> 01:34:44.760
stick movement, lots of movements, so there's lots of variability
1660
01:34:44.760 --> 01:34:48.039
in the task. Every goes different. So live sets up.
1661
01:34:48.119 --> 01:34:50.399
First time she goes, she has a go, does it perfectly,
1662
01:34:50.439 --> 01:34:53.520
looks great. Second time she goes, she passes to the
1663
01:34:53.600 --> 01:35:00.399
opposite side of her defense. Completely different. Task, wasn't grip did,
1664
01:35:00.520 --> 01:35:04.920
wasn't discussed, wasn't even had a conversation that defense. Did
1665
01:35:04.920 --> 01:35:07.199
a cross ice transfer, put the puck straight in deep
1666
01:35:07.239 --> 01:35:08.840
she skated and picked the puck up and shot on.
1667
01:35:09.479 --> 01:35:12.159
Nothing like the way that I designed the task. Now,
1668
01:35:12.159 --> 01:35:14.039
I don't draw little lines, I don't tell them where
1669
01:35:14.039 --> 01:35:17.359
to go. I create spaces for them to basically explore. Well,
1670
01:35:17.399 --> 01:35:21.439
she just created this whole new onset from this task,
1671
01:35:21.479 --> 01:35:24.800
and I thought, she's just broken those constraints completely.
1672
01:35:24.880 --> 01:35:26.359
She looked at the task differently.
1673
01:35:26.640 --> 01:35:28.920
She decided that she didn't like the way that I'd
1674
01:35:28.960 --> 01:35:30.760
set it up and did it completely different.
1675
01:35:31.239 --> 01:35:35.279
That is exploration, That is what I look for.
1676
01:35:35.479 --> 01:35:37.680
That is the you know, I would be happy if
1677
01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:40.079
everyone broke every constraint that I did.
1678
01:35:40.119 --> 01:35:43.920
Everyone broke every task I did because they decided that
1679
01:35:43.960 --> 01:35:46.239
it could be done better or it could be done differently.
1680
01:35:46.640 --> 01:35:50.640
So and that and I actually even named.
1681
01:35:50.319 --> 01:35:53.279
That task before she broke it the Olivia del Bassett task,
1682
01:35:53.279 --> 01:35:56.439
because that's what Live does. She crashes the puck. She
1683
01:35:56.600 --> 01:35:58.760
forces everyone wide, and then she drives to the middle.
1684
01:35:58.800 --> 01:36:01.199
That's what she does and is fantastic. Edit.
1685
01:36:01.479 --> 01:36:03.439
I mean, she'd be the best in the country at it.
1686
01:36:03.960 --> 01:36:06.319
So yeah.
1687
01:36:06.399 --> 01:36:09.359
So, and she broke it the second time, and then
1688
01:36:09.399 --> 01:36:13.359
I had to try and sort of hold my excitement
1689
01:36:14.560 --> 01:36:18.439
and my dismay at the same time, because then I
1690
01:36:18.479 --> 01:36:20.600
had ten girls not having a blue about how the
1691
01:36:20.680 --> 01:36:22.000
stars wreaks.
1692
01:36:23.760 --> 01:36:32.319
Hand relate. I can relate, particularly to the conflicting moment
1693
01:36:32.560 --> 01:36:43.439
of joy and and begrudgement whatever. Oh so brilliant, and
1694
01:36:43.560 --> 01:36:45.279
you're it.
1695
01:36:47.199 --> 01:36:49.760
And this was perfect up until about five minutes ago.
1696
01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:55.600
Hey, listen, that's a great way to sort of wrap
1697
01:36:55.720 --> 01:36:59.079
up the conversation. I want to be respectful of time
1698
01:36:59.159 --> 01:37:04.640
given you'll get into your evening. Listen. Honestly, that's been
1699
01:37:04.680 --> 01:37:06.920
a fantastic conversation. I'm so glad you reached out to me.
1700
01:37:08.199 --> 01:37:11.840
I loved everything you were talking about. I know my
1701
01:37:12.039 --> 01:37:14.800
colleagues at USA Hockey are going to be over the
1702
01:37:14.800 --> 01:37:18.239
moon to hear how their education program has shaped you
1703
01:37:18.319 --> 01:37:23.840
and is shaping what you're doing over there. And yeah,
1704
01:37:23.960 --> 01:37:25.680
I know people might be interested in might want to
1705
01:37:25.720 --> 01:37:28.000
reach out and find out a bit more about what
1706
01:37:28.039 --> 01:37:29.920
you do. So what's the best way for them to
1707
01:37:29.920 --> 01:37:30.439
get in touch?
1708
01:37:31.479 --> 01:37:32.680
And you can find me on LinkedIn?
1709
01:37:32.840 --> 01:37:35.600
I am and if you're if you're a hockey coach,
1710
01:37:35.960 --> 01:37:38.439
I'm I sort of I've got sort of, like said,
1711
01:37:38.520 --> 01:37:41.640
sixty or seventy publications on the coach's side already and
1712
01:37:41.680 --> 01:37:44.000
sort of talking about sort of leadership and how this
1713
01:37:44.039 --> 01:37:46.520
looks like and how the ecological approach works and things
1714
01:37:46.560 --> 01:37:51.039
like that. So you can just typing Barry Jones into LinkedIn,
1715
01:37:51.119 --> 01:37:52.159
you'll find me pretty quickly.
1716
01:37:52.159 --> 01:37:54.439
It's a sort of very ecological.
1717
01:37:54.399 --> 01:37:58.600
Amazing, amazing, amazing. And by the way, the fifth element
1718
01:37:58.720 --> 01:38:01.800
of the Golden thread is stretch. Has to be a
1719
01:38:01.800 --> 01:38:04.359
bit of stretch, doesn't it. It came back from me
1720
01:38:04.399 --> 01:38:08.560
earlier on Barry really appreciate you joining me. Really fantastic
1721
01:38:08.560 --> 01:38:11.880
conversation all the best with what you're doing and look
1722
01:38:11.920 --> 01:38:13.520
forward to the rest of your season, and I'm going
1723
01:38:13.560 --> 01:38:17.199
to be tracking the Inferno and your results and obviously
1724
01:38:17.279 --> 01:38:20.119
your onward march towards the finals and the rest.
1725
01:38:21.199 --> 01:38:21.800
That's the plan.
1726
01:38:22.960 --> 01:38:23.720
Appreciate it by