Jessica Ballard: Changing Tables With Grace

Jeanette Hernandez: Hi, Jessica. Thank you so much for joining me today. I'm really, really excited about our conversation. Thank you so much for having me. Well, I I have been watching you and I reached out to you to have you come on on the show today because I've been so inspired ⁓ by your current search for a a new table. And some of your posts are sharing how even dramatically in the past few years, finding a job is not the same as what it used to be. Absolutely. So I I I wanted to start off by asking you, what are you learning differently, both from the process, but what what you're looking for in in your next employer. Absolutely. ⁓ so it's been about four years since I've been out on the job market. And it's really interesting because I was in a role where I spent a lot of time on the other side, a lot of time interviewing, hiring, helping to screen. And so depending on the organization you're at, you know what tools are out there or what you have access to. ⁓ and now that I'm on the flip side of this, I'm starting to learn and see this from a whole different perspective. And I really wish one, I would have changed some things that I did in the past. ⁓ but also just kind of looking at this just very differently moving forward. ⁓ in this current job searching, it's been, let's see, about the end of March is kind of when I started. I found a lot of things that are very different. ⁓ there's a lot of emphasis on AI in a lot of spaces, as all of us know. It's a big buzzword. It's a lot of things that are going on. ⁓ there are a lot of changes also to kind of qualifications and what companies are looking for that I have not seen ⁓ in the past. ⁓ I have predominantly spent most of my time in the insurance world and For the most part, things are pretty black and white there. Either you kind of have experience or they're looking for entry-level employees, or like I said, you're coming over with some form of experience. ⁓ but the requirements, the qualifications, some things that are kind of just written into the job description that in the past life you never would have asked maybe a director to do in a claims environment, ⁓ or a even like an adjuster to do in a claims environment ⁓ is very different. Apple. Processes are very different. ⁓ one of my posts, and it got a lot of traction probably about a week or so ago, is in relation to AI. ⁓ and just your job application. Like companies are out and we're publicly talking about how versed we want people to be in AI and how this is gonna change the world and be invited ⁓ into their company as a whole. But like you go to fill out a job application, I upload my resume and I still have to retype everything. Like the AI isn't in the job application process, but you're telling me crazy. Your company's running on AI and you need someone to like hone in and like make this thing better for you. on top of that, a lot of them have like these disclaimers as you're applying about we don't want you to use AI in the interview process. Well, the job is about how do I change your organization with AI. So if I can't give you an examples of how I would do that, or I can't use it in order to show you how I'm qualified to do so. How do you test what I'm actually good at or how I could implement these things in your company? ⁓ so definitely some challenges, some different things that I'm seeing and facing. They're all great learning experiences for me, ⁓ but definitely not something we saw four years ago. Four years ago was like you called people in your network, you reached out, you had some conversations, you kind of got a seat at a table. ⁓ and we all know, right? I can get you at the table, but it's your responsibility to show up and get the job and do all these things. ⁓ but it's just a very different market. It's hard. Companies are changing, roles are diversifying, stability is always in question now, especially with all these layoffs from all of these large companies. So I'm definitely seeing some very different things. And I'm pretty sure I have some follow-up questions to dig into those. Do you do you think that going through this process? I think that's an interesting perspective, just out of the gate, saying, you know, I I've always been on the hiring side of it. And now that I'm going through it, it's how how do you think it's gonna change you when you're in your next role and interviewing for for a position? It's changing me already. ⁓ I believe that one, I I've had a career in insurance and I've had a successful career. ⁓ and so I have always had the philosophy: if I've got one job, I can get enough. Like finding a job isn't the problem. now. Finding right job, right? Finding the right job is now it's like, okay, this is a little bit different for me. I think where it has changed is that as now I'm going through the hiring process, as much as we like to say that interview is about vetting the company as well, I'm also starting to look at it in the hiring perspective. So, like for instance, if you are looking for a particular role and I've been through some interviews and I've gotten final rounds and different things, like there will be a company who it's a three-step process. And you'll have another company. It's an eight-step process with a project, a case study. Then they want you to fly into the town and do different things. And what I'm finding is that people are going to start losing talent along the way. Like your high-end talent that is out there right now is not waiting seven or eight weeks for a job offer if they're actively looking. Someone is going to capture them along the way. So what I learned ⁓ one is as on the being on the other side of the table, be very transparent in that. Process and I could have done that like in my past, being more transparent about, hey, maybe there are some additional applicants that we're talking to. We're going to make a decision on this round by the state and we'll get back to you. But people aren't waiting around anymore. Like we are jumping in immediately. We are preparing for like what these interviews look like. We're doing a lot of work on the front end. ⁓ and especially when you're looking for more executive roles, right? These are not. standard conversations that you're having, even with the recruiter on the initial screen, right? We're doing our research, we're understanding what your problems are, we're coming to your interviews with solutions. And as you continue to do that over time, it gets taxing, right? And so as you move through the process, the scale and the time that it takes are very important, that communication is important. the second thing I would say is that just mere follow-up ⁓ is lacking and I get it. People are applying to jobs. I know when I was at Outdoor Z, right? I'd post a job and have 400 applications an hour. And so just getting back to candidates, sending out email responses, following up is getting way more difficult. And then on top of that. There are these bots out here and there are a lot of fake jobs that are posted and you start to talk to people and you're like, What? Like this isn't this can't really be a job. That's the worst when you send it and you get excited and and there's a there's 400 applicants and then it goes away the next day, and you're like, they were just they were fishing for candidates, right? Absolutely. And so it has taught me a lot about even when I get back into a role where I'm hiring the importance of very clear communication, very clear expectations about a role. And having an interview process that yes is challenging because you want people that are gonna be up for the challenge for your role, but also realistic and considerate of the time that they're spending, the fact that they're actively integrating with people and just treating them like humans in that process, giving them true feedback, right? ⁓ I've been the interviews with people that I know from my network, right? Who have introduced me in one way or another and I'll do maybe the first and second and get a canned response back. And these are people that I know and have spent time with, right? And I know that's not the intention, but the system is just moving so fast, right? So starting to slow down and starting to understand that we're in a different space now. People like and value quality feedback, even if it's in email form, providing them information so that they know what to do for the next step. So they don't get discouraged that they continue to move on. But this is definitely evolving and looking very different now. Yeah. And and and I think the communication part too, I I can't remember when it happened, but you used to be able to send a resume in, now you have to make sure you have the buzzwords because it gets fed through some software and if it doesn't match like you're not even considered. It doesn't matter who you are. And now couple that with automated responses to a first interview or second i it's it's important not just you're knowing what type of company. I mean that's a pretty good indicator, right? That's that's the impression first impression of a company. But someone might take the wrong job. Absolutely. Right. You you may love this job and you like everything went so well, but I got this canned response and now they're dragging their feet. And this other offer is sitting in front of me. So I'm gonna take it. And then you're like, and then a month later they go, We want you to come back in. And you're like, God took a job now, right? And so it is very different. Like the canned response, and this is the reality, the AI scoring, right? I seen a meme the other day and who knows if it was real or not, but ultimately it was a guy who Had applied to a job. He had already gone through the whole interview process and been accepted and been working there for a month. And he got a rejection email saying that he wasn't a good fit. And he's like, Well, what do you mean? You already hired me. And so that just those. It shows there's so much going on and it's going on so quickly that we don't even have time to be like, ⁓ you know what? I actually hired this person. Maybe they applied and then they got a referral and I worked off of the referral and I hired them. And now I'm sitting and can respond about How they don't qualify when he's actively doing the job, right? And so it just shows all of the crazy things like we're kind of just seeing out there. And don't get me wrong, I think recruiters and hire managers are having a really hard time. And it's not intentional that we're getting this form of communication. The market is just being bombarded. ⁓ as much as we like to talk about the greatness of AI, there are some challenges to it as well. So they're like, Fake resumes being recruited and they're trying to figure out if they're dealing with the human or with the bot that's applying for a role and people just using AI answers in an interview process. And so we are all kind of trying to work through what the challenges are in this space. ⁓ and so it's it's getting very interesting. Yeah, and I think I think that goes into at least for claims, the the struggle of adopting the AI. Because you just nailed it. It's the combination of the human element with the tech element. And if you're going into a company and there's a struggle, that might be indicative of where they are in the AI journey. So if you're if you are very fluent and and use AI frequently, that might not be the best selection for you. Because it's still about finding the right table. Right. I mean, we all have bills to pay and all of that, but jumping into another frying pan is is not always the, you know, the answer. And people People might be doing that because of the experience they're. Absolutely. I'm also finding kind of as I'm going through the interview process, I'm definitely interviewing a lot differently than I had in the past, right? Typically, you show up, you're prepared to have conversations, answer hard questions. ⁓ but I'm really coming into interviews with questions for the people interviewing me, push back on decisions, like, okay, you're making this role. What has got you to this point? Why do you guys think this is important for your organization? ⁓ what are you going to do to support this person when they get inside inside of this role? ⁓ because you're right, on surface level, things can look really great. ⁓ and again, there's a lot of change that's just going on in our industry right now as a whole. And so asking these questions, seeing how as much as we like to say, like we like internal conflict a little bit and we have liking we liked having hard conversations. See what that challenge is like in an interview setting, right? When you're starting to push back and ask them, why are you making these decisions? Have you considered doing these things? Seeing how the people that you are going to work with respond to that type of collaboration in an interview setting. And so I've been starting to approach them a little bit differently, and I've learned a lot. There have been people that are like digging into it are like, you know what, we didn't consider these things. ⁓ or we didn't think about it from that perspective. And that's something like we're gonna look into. And then I've had others have been like, no, this is just kind of what it is. But then like the biggest line as far as what they need is someone who's willing to collaborate and is humble in their role. Right. And so I'm like, ⁓ this probably isn't a good fit for me. Right. ⁓ and so just approaching it different, definitely being prepared in a completely different manner. But willing to have hard conversation, push back on some decisions of what maybe they want this person to do in this role and kind of talk to the company about you said you need it, but why do you need it? Why is it important? And then how are you gonna help this person be successful in this role? Cause it's a two way street. You are an asset to a company when they hire you, but it's also important that you get something back from them. whether it be an additional skill set that you grow in some type of area, whether it be professional or personal. And so I think starting to ask those hard questions and making that more of a two-way street versus those can, well, what is the salary? And how does the bonus structure work? And how's the culture? Are we gonna have a pizza party every Friday? Like leave that on the like if there's a important thing, it's like I get it. ⁓ but really starting to have hard conversations, starting to add some hard questions so that you really get to learn about an organization before you join it. I think you bring up such an incredibly important point for people listening because we all say that. Ask anybody that you know do you do you interview the company as much as they're interviewing? ⁓ yes, I do. But do you really ask hard questions? Because I know so many people That don't. They might ask a couple of questions, but they don't ask questions that are representative of them, especially as a leader. And then they get in the job and they're like, This is not the culture I was Well, did you ask the question? It's hard because you you may ask the question like you did on a couple of those companies, and they come back and they're like, This is just the way it is. And you're okay, okay, then it's not for me. And that's okay. Like I recently did an interview and when I was talking with the hiring manager, I said this may sound a little unorthodox. ⁓ But why the do you mind sharing why the last person left and how long they had been with the company before? Cause like this is a very important role for you. So are you adding a second role to this to kind of split your regions and how you're working? Or is this person who was in this role now departing? And then like really following up with her and asking, like, okay, well, what do we learn from that departure? What would you say you would want to hire differently for in this role? Now that you know what skill sets that person brought to the table, what are you looking for in addition to those? ⁓ and this is the thing, it may be uncomfortable and the company may not be willing to answer the questions. And then you have to make a decision for yourself. Do I still want to continue moving forward in this process? Is there a different way I can learn the answer to some of these questions? Maybe phrasing it a little bit differently or asking it as I get further and further through the process. ⁓ but I think it's really important to address right now. When we are looking for jobs and we're starting to talk about new companies and again with AI and stability and just everything that's just changing in our space, I think is so important to have a very good understanding of what you are getting to. And I will say, like when I was interviewing people, I always was very transparent about things. ⁓ I came from a startup world. And so I would tell people who are coming like from a progressive or an all state that knowledge base should have all those great things. Where we got where every like you can click a button and it answer all your questions does not exist. I'm looking for the people who are gonna help me build those things. What do those things look like? Because that's a huge transition from going where there's a knowledge base where you can get all the information you need and everything. And then you asking me a question about a total loss that I'm like, huh, I don't really know if we owe taxes in that state. Give me a minute, let me do some research. Or call this person. It's a big shift in work, right? And so being transparent, learning what you can about a company, and sometimes From an executive perspective. We are we have to dig and ask the questions to get that information is not as transparent. And so I'm learning to do that as I'm approaching this and looking for a new table. That's that's another important point that we talk a lot about on the show is making sure that you're doing what's right for you. Right. You're finding a seat. It's not the same seat, it might be by title, but you evolve with each position, right? And so what you want. What you want now isn't probably what you wanted four years ago because you've evolved as a leader. Absolutely. And and as a leader, if you're not if you're not personally satisfied, then it's really hard to step into a role and be your authentic self. It just it just is, unless the company embraces Absolutely. And I think even now, like as I'm looking, ⁓ I have to ask myself the questions, right? I've had a lot of responsibilities at my old role. Am I looking for something where I want the same level of responsibility? Do I want to hone in on one particular skill set? Do I want to go to traditional insurance? Do I want to stay in an insure tech world? Do I want to go to a service provider or a vendor who is revolutionizing what claims and insurance look like? Right. And so there are a lot of options out there. And it's really important, like as I'm looking to find what is a good fit for me, not only from just a compensation perspective, but Where can I be myself authentically? Where can I truly be a leader? Where do I have the abilities to teach leadership and not just run an organization? Like those things are very, very important to me. ⁓ I really care about the three Ps and someone that I used to work with at Root taught me this, people, process, and performance. And so for me, it's really important in an organization that they understand that. I care about the relationships with the people that work on my team. I care about when we make decisions about what the return to office looks like and the people who went down in one car because we've changed the way that life works in our space, right? And so always believe there's a fair compromise in these things. And sometimes decisions have to be made. But I want to work for an organization who puts those people first and understands that perspective, right? And then the performance and the process and all those things will follow. But I want to be able to show up and be authentically me, lean into the things that I love and that bring me pleasure and joy, and still also be able to contribute to your organization while also investing in those individuals. I I think that's a really important point because if you if you know your kind of foundation, those three Ps. And you ask that in an interview and one of them doesn't resonate, then you go, it's probably not the place for me, right? Exactly. Yeah. I I I shared with you too. ⁓ the I normally I struggle with like what what creative topic and title are we gonna come up for the episode? And I usually leave it to the editor, but yours, it it hit me right away, and that's changing tables with grace. That's what we're gonna call this. Because ⁓ as I mentioned earlier, A, you're doing art auth authentically, you're putting yourself out there, but It's an interesting thing that once you get through, you know, halfway through or whatever point of your career, definitely by the end, no one, and I mean I have yet to meet anybody, goes through their whole career without selecting to leave a table. Absolutely. ⁓ getting laid off or getting fired. And there's this taboo about it. And it because you get fired, it doesn't represent you. You could have had a terrible boss. It could have been a terrible there's so many scenarios. And I think your authenticity shows who you are as a leader as well. So if someone said, I'm gonna work with Jessica, if she's being this upfront about a topic that's so personal, I want to work with her. And and you just never know who you inspire when you're putting yourself out there. So I I think it's amazing, but I wanted to ask you, did you consciously choose to be public and and share the experience for a reason? Or is it just you kind of sharing with your network this is what I'm doing? You know what? ⁓ for me, one, I'm always I'm so used to working and doing something, right? I when I first got laid off, I tried for a second just to be like, ⁓ okay, I'm like, I'm gonna do the say ⁓ stay home mom thing. I'm gonna like Cook breakfast, lunch, and dinner. And I was like, ⁓ this is not that fun. I don't appreciate this as much. I appreciate and respect all the women that do it. But like by 10 o'clock, I was like, I've prepped dinner, I've washed all the clothes, I put some patio furniture together. Like, I've been drive myself crazy if I don't find something else to do. And so I've always been a person who believes in being vulnerable. One I think is probably in the top five of what makes you a good leader. Just being And being able to have hard conversations with people, being vulnerable about what is going on, how you're feeling, how to move forward, et cetera. And so getting on LinkedIn and sharing the journey for me was very easy. But what I got out of it that I didn't expect, Jeanette, is that people that I had worked with over the years, like going back to like my start of leadership, like reached out. put time on my calendar, talked about how great a leader I was today and how it influenced their career and how like they would still love to work with me again. And that wasn't the intention, right? The intention was truly to be like, ⁓ I'm going through something like what I need some space. I need to be able to get these words out. I need to be able to bring my network in to tell people like, hey, you're not in this space alone. And as I started to like talk to that, it kind of reinforced What I knew, but you kind of lose as you start applying to jobs, right? Because you get these auto rejections and maybe you have conversations and you're like, Man, like, did I suck? Like, what is going on? Like, what am ⁓ I saying? Like, what it and but they reinforce, like, no, like this is just the space we're in as a world and everything that is going on. It's really hard to get in front of people. And they just help solidify, like, hey, you are a good leader. You're gonna find the right day, you're gonna find the right company, it's all gonna work out. And so if even if I do not get a job based on my LinkedIn posts and all these things, I got to reconnect with people that I was able to help advance their career and move them to the next phase, people who had used my leadership style and made it some of their own and it has made them move through their career. And I've reconnected with a lot of people that I lost connections with. ⁓ we try not to in this space, but the reality of it is is that things move fast. You're busy all the time, you find yourself working 24-7 sometimes. And so it did that for me. So that was the first thing. The second thing was just it's okay to ask for help. I think it's just like a big thing. And whether it be like I've had people that I sat on boards with, ⁓ I'm a big part of marketplace risk. People reach out. with like jobs I never would even consider doing. But they were like, hey, I've heard you talk and I know like you're good in this subject. Have you considered doing these things? And it made me do some research and be like, ⁓ I don't have to stay in this box. This table that I go sit at could look very different than what I figured before. Like I can go be a principal consultant for someone. I can go, you know, run a Call center if I want to. Like there's all these different things that I could do. And people are like, Yeah, no, this isn't really like your thing. But because of I heard you speak, because I've spent time with you, like you'd be great at this thing. And I know the person to talk to about this thing with you. Right. ⁓ and so it just also just opened up some connections. I've had people reach out and just say, like, hey, I'm in the same journey. You know, if you need to talk or vent, I'm here kind of just to support you. And then me being able to offer the same to them. And so, like if you go search my LinkedIn, my calendar is out there. It's very open and very public. And I get a little bit of everything from people who I've worked with before to individuals who are trying to go on the leadership and like my leadership style and vulnerability to people and recruiters who have job postings who are like, hey, I just want to talk to you and see if you have something that you're interested in. ⁓ so it's been a great experience. And so I would encourage people who are actively looking, be vulnerable, put yourself out there. ⁓ put out content. I do not want to be a content creator in no way, shape, or form. Right. ⁓ just so y'all know. But put out content, like put things out there, talk about how you're feeling, talk about your leadership skills, talk about the things that you are interested in in your space or outside of another space, because you never know who will see it, who will make the connection, and what will move you to the next step. I I think that's really important because traditionally, especially in flames. It was so linear. ⁓ yeah. And it was and and that box, even I mean, I've seen through the years, if you were personalized and you went to go get a specialty job, ⁓ no, no, no, because specialty so different, or vice versa. Or and and for me, I can say one of the best decisions I made, and it was mindful because my very first job was State Farm. And literally back then, you had to wait for somebody to retire or die to get promoted. It was it was impossible. I was like, I'm never going to learn or advance. I I loved the company, but I I was an agent. I worked for a vendor. So I have this breadth and depth of the industry, not just a job, that I think has helped me when I chose or had to change my table and and and and and it let me be open to more opportunities. And I think when you're saying the job process is different, what you just said, most people are not doing. So you you think networks, I privately sit and call someone. Well, if you connected with 600 people or a thousand people over your career, you never know which one is the one in your network that's going to give you a hand. So you kind of have to use the platform of social media in a different way because it it a it enforces the network. Cause I'm sure you haven't talked to some people in years. You're like, ⁓ my gosh, I forgot how amazing this is, right? And then, like you said. Or I get somebody who just saw me and said, I think you'd be great at this job. Absolutely. And I don't see enough people using it in that way. You might do the I'm I'm hiring or I'm looking for someone, right? Sir job search or whatever they title it on LinkedIn. But I think that's a really not just the vulnerability part, but it also lets prospective employers see who you are and who your network is and really what you're about, which hopefully shortens that. really long painful cycle of of being higher. Yeah, absolutely. And I would also say that for the people who are watching this who are in the insurance space, do different things. Like Jeanette was saying, like she did a little bit of everything. And so now when you're looking for work, you can remember like, ⁓ I don't have to stay in this box. Like I've spun up an estimatics team from the ground up. Do I want to work in metal? Right. Probably not. But if like that was the only option on the table, I can do it. I can write an estimate. I understand how this process works. I understand how salvage works. Like I understand all the vendors in this space. And so sometimes we kind of put ourselves in this box of, well, this is what I did last. This is the only thing I could do. And that's absolutely not true. Like I ran a operations team ultimately. Maybe I want to go be an operations person somewhere. And it doesn't necessarily have to be an insurance, or I want to run the customer experience journey. That does not have to be in an insurance space. It can be in a new call center or company that's just up and coming and starting. Those skills are very transferable. And as much as we talk about that, I don't see a lot of people apply it. And I think why people don't apply it is it does take a little bit more work. How I write my resume, how I address this cover letter, how I show up in this space, the amount of research I have to do in this company and with the The area of business in which they focus. They are a little bit more challenging, but you are able to do it into crossover. You just have to be willing to put in a little bit more work to do it. ⁓ the other thing I would say about that. I think that scares people. ⁓ it does, right? You invest 15 years in insurance and you're like, okay, I'm gonna go into retail. You can transfer your skills, but you don't know anything about the industry. So I think it's just scary. It is being unemployed and then going somewhere new, but The benefits you you you test yourself. Because as a as a lead, if if it's really about being a leader and taking those skills, you can go into anything. And so just like you're going through the process, it's going to make you a better leader leader when you get into your new role and you build your team. Absolutely. ⁓ what I'm also learning is that not only is it making me a better leader, but it's making helping me to realize like, ⁓ I have some skill sets I didn't even think I had or knew I had. Right. ⁓ so it it is harder to kind of cross over into that space, but I do think it's worth it, especially if you're looking for something different, not just to kind of put yourself in a box, see what spaces that you can work in. ⁓ so, like for instance, if you are a call center F O L director, like that translates over to most customer service things that happen. If I order something in Nike and they lost my hat or my shoes, essentially that contact is filing a claim. Right. What does that look like and how do you move that along? And so a lot of those things are transferable, but like you said, it does take a little bit more work and it does make you uncomfortable. What I will say though now that I am looking is I'm almost looking for that challenge. Right. I don't want to sit in a role where I can kind of I won't say do it my eyes closed, but where it's just that same routine things over and over. I'm looking for roles and companies where they are trying to challenge the status quo. They are trying to do something different. They're going to force me to think outside of the box and think of some different ways to implement, whether it be process, strategy, operations, customer experience, AI integration. Like I am looking for something where I'm actually going to get a challenge and not so much of a, ⁓ you've done this before, so I know you can do it again type space. No. Right. If the right opportunity comes of something that I've done or I have experience in, yes, I'm definitely going to consider it. But the jobs that I'm finding the most interesting right now that had are the ones where I'm like, ⁓ this is different. And I'm doing the research and I'm starting, but like, ⁓ this company is interesting. And this is how kind of these things correlate to claims and what I was doing at Outdoorsy. And so like they're like, ⁓ trust and safety. I'm like when I talk to people, I'm like, it's underwriting for marketplaces. 'Cause I talk to a lot of insurance people. But when you say trust and safety, you're like, Well, well, what is that? What do mean? It's it's literally it's underwriting because you speak insurance. And they're like, ⁓ yeah, I can run a trust and safety team because it's literally underwriting. Right. I can do these things. And so it's just really kind of thinking outside the box, being creative. ⁓ I would say interacting with people on there. Cause it also can get discouraging, right? You're scrolling and you're typing and they're like, ⁓ congratulations on your new job. Congratulations on your new job. I just took a new job here. And I'm learning to be like, applaud, put a comment on there, support people. Cause it's gonna be you one day. Your time will come, your opportunity will come. And so support people, be there for them. Cause they probably just went through the same journey as you. And they like they're getting a breather now. And so I would say stay interactive, be positive. And understand it is hard out there right now. And we're all feeling it. What do you think it coming out of a four year position, w what is maybe you said the three Ps, but for you personally, what besides being challenged, what are you really looking at at the next table as a leader? Are you looking for a a big team to run? Is it is it more about the leadership or are you in a place in your career where you also want to maybe I'm hearing a lot of growth? And you want to grow and have some new skills. Cause I think there I think those are a trade-off. Like you were saying, I don't want to have a job where I know how to do everything, but you almost need a position that's comfortable with your skill set to to become a better leader. Absolutely. Right. Or to work on your leadership skills. Cause you can't work on you and your s and your team at the same time from the lead. It's it's a lot of ⁓ For me right now, I think that I haven't made a final decision on that, right? As I am looking and interviewing, I have not put myself in a box to say, ⁓ I'll only take a job where I have a span of control of a hundred plus people, or I'll only take a job as an individual contributor. I am really taking this time to interview the company. And I just feel when the right one comes, I will know. And I will know if it means like, okay, in this space right now. It is meant for me to teach and develop in this space right now. It's meant for me to be stretched. Right. ⁓ and so I just feel as I'm having these conversations, when the right one comes, I will just know in my heart, like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to be doing in this space. So I'm not limiting myself to any of the above. I think that I'm just being open to ⁓ the skill sets that I have and just knowing when the right time is for me to utilize them. Because you're absolutely right. It is very, very hard. And as much as leaders we like to say, I'm gonna grow myself and I'm gonna grow my it it's a challenge. It's only eight hours in a day. And let's be real, the company hired you to move the numbers. Your job End of the day is you need the KPIs. The relationships that you build and the environments that you foster, they're extra, right? That is extra things and time and commitment that you're putting through because you want that on a more personal level versus a professional level. And so there is like the doing the job, and then there is the extra that you just stole in because it's important to you, right? And so it is very hard to run an organization. build relationships with people and then also expand your skill set or grow in a certain area. And so I agree with you a thousand percent. I do think it's gonna come down to I'm going to have to make a choice, but I'm not set right now on what that choice is. I'm just open and I think for the right company, I'm gonna get the opportunity to do both as I progress through my career. So it may be in the beginning that I do have to invest more in building leaders, especially if I go to a startup, right? We take all our A players in a startup, we promote them, and then we realize, ⁓ all Amaz. Like, ⁓ you just knew how to do this job at your eyes closed, but you can't explain to anybody else. Like, okay, let's teach how to be a leader. Let's show you how to do some of these skills. So if I end up in a startup world, it's probably going to be more of that. If I end up at more of a fortune 500 company, it's probably going to be like, yes, I'm bringing my skill set to the table, but I'm going to learn a lot from the people that are around me. ⁓ so which I'm just gonna go with right now, whatever feels right when we're time comes. I I think that's another change too for for people in general when they're looking for a job. One, I think a lot of people are afraid to take a step back. I'm a s vp, I'm a VP, I have this leadership title. And if you take a a director or an A V P somehow people think you're less than. So first is you gotta not care what other people think. And if if you if you chose to go through like I left claims and became an agent and it didn't didn't last long because I realized I didn't want to do that. But I think it's important to say exactly what you're doing right now. It's my job. It's it's a it's about me. And where am I? Where where do I want to show up and and how do I want to present myself in this company? And I I think you ⁓ ultimately always do both, right? We're always leading and always learning. But there are certain times where it becomes more personal. Hey, I I want to get a different I want to be an ops or I want to learn tech or I want and you might have to step down temporarily, but then when you go back up to the other role, if you interview again, you just say, I did this for this reason. There's always an explanation. There isn't a fear. And as much as I tell people when I when I mentor them, never ever, ever jump for a job or more money, if that's all it is, because there's always something tied to it. Every time it never fails. Right. Never fails. It you're gonna lose something. You're gonna get more money, but you're gonna lose something. ⁓ I agree with you on that a thousand percent. And actually what I'm finding is typically the applicant is willing to take the step. But the problem you run into is as you go through the interview, you're interviewing with people who are like, ⁓ you could do my job. And how correct are they with that, right? How comfortable are they? With having a leader who is underneath that that they know has the capability and the worry of are we gonna butt heads? Are you going to go against decisions I make because you understand how this works on a higher level or you understand the bigger picture, right? And so I feel like it is more on the hiring company that kind of places some ⁓ stigmas around that versus the individual who is applying, right? So, like for me, I've always been the type of person, I don't really care what The title is as long as the check clears. Like you can't I'm always like you can call me James. You can call me whatever you want to call me as long as the check clears at the end of the day. As long as you hold up your end of the commitment, I hold up my end, I could care less what you call me. But I also have learned that it's not important because as I've led in different spaces, I think it's really important that everyone in your org knows that you're accessible. And so, like for me, the title has not meant anything because I don't mind hopping on the phone with the IC and helping them because their manager is busy. I don't mind having a one-on-one with them because they just kind of want to express some frustration. So I've always kind of steered away from what the title is because at the end of the day, I've always considered the people that report to me, these are my customers. Like, yes, I have external customers that have to deal with, but these are my internal customers. And if I keep these customers happy, like I have security in my job. They have security in their job. And so I've never been a big person about the title. It's more of so, what do you want me to do in this role? And what do you want me to accomplish in this particular space? ⁓ and so for me the title has not been important throughout my career. Like again, you can call me whatever. That's fine. As long as again, what we agreed you pay me is the same with the check guns. Yes. But ⁓ it it does make it challenging, right? And so like even when you're doing things like writing your resume, you're like, ⁓ do I dumb this down a little bit? Like I yeah, it's overqualified, underqualified. How do I fit in? Exactly. Even though you're like, hey, like, I actually want To take the step back. I understand what a director does, and that's the space I'm in right now. That's the capacity in which I want to contribute to your organization. It's hard to convince people that you are willing to do that. And then on the flip side, like, I get it. They may be like, listen, you're just gonna take this job in a six months, you're gonna find another A VP or SVP job and you're just gonna leave us high and dry. And so there is some risk there. And I think that's where it's important for the hiring team for that company to ask those hard questions, really understand what this person's end goal and intention is. Sometimes we have reasons for stepping back, whether it be like changing family life or just, you know, needing to take a break from a mental capacity point, right? And so it it's hard on both individual side, but I think the applicants from here are willing. To take those changes than what some hiring teams are willing to accept at this point. And so it does make looking for roles hard. And it's almost like you said, it's stay far. Like another VP role doesn't come around until someone grows. Like no one's leaving, right? They're pensioned, they're vested. Like they are going to stay there forever. So VP roles don't just post on a daily basis. And so as you're looking for roles, you have to truly consider: is that title that important to me? How do I want to show up for this next company that I'm going to work for? And what is truly important to me? Because what you just came from may not be readily available as you're looking. And so you have to be open. You have to be creative. Like I said, you have to use your network and you have to have a plan for what this looks like for you. Do you have six months worth of finances to kind of work through this process and get some different jobs or different things? Or is it something like, I need insurance immediately? Like I need a job. For my family. Like there are different values to this for each person and different things that are important. So it's really about sitting down, figuring out what you need. And you know, if you need to make some life changes, we all don't need Netflix, Hulu, ESPN, Disney. This $200 a month. Like, ⁓ you could say that by doing some changes and making some things so you can find some balance. But again, it's all individual based and it goes back to what you said. You can't care what people think. You have to understand what you want. What is going to make you happy and how you're gonna move in that space right now? Do you think also I I I think when you were talking about ⁓ the different types of companies, whether it's insurance or it's another industry, but also within our our own industry, as a leader, when you know you're going through this process, so it's gonna give you a different perspective when you have direct reports again. ⁓ if you go and you work on the vendor side. You you will have a newfound relationship with those service providers when you go back on the claim side. I think it expands you as a leader not just from a personal perspective and growth because it's it's going to be different, but it also gives you a broader perspective in the industry. Absolutely. ⁓ and so as I've like just been looking at roles and different things, ⁓ it does. It gives you one. A way to kind of be a SME in a certain area versus like Jack of All Trades, right? And so let's say I went to work for Copart and I truly learned like, okay, this is what salvage looks like, this is what selling looks like. ⁓ this is how auctions are handled. This is truly how you get a protocol, right? Then yes, you do at some point, if you're interested, have the ability to go back into the insurance space and maybe lead a medal team if that's something that you hadn't done before, but you're interested in, right? And then where the value is to Copart is. They need people to work for them who speak insurance. So that when the state farms and the Liberty Mutuals show up in the room, they can speak to the things that are important to this insurance company or two in their business. So I think there are benefits of going to vendors and learning a specific skill set and broadening your skills across the board. Cause you can ultimately transition back to where you came from. If that's not something that you're interested in, but you're coming back with a skill set that is way more refined, you understand this process. You're Better at the negotiation table when you're looking at partners and different things and you start to learn about who else is in this space. Like maybe you work for a company, you can only use this vendor for this long. Then you go work for another vendor, you learn, ⁓ there's better technology out there that could be applied to insurance, but because no one out here knew insurance, they didn't even kind of pitch to that market or they haven't even presented themselves. So you become an asset, you learn. ⁓ in more tech in a tech space and then you could always transition back to insurance and bring that knowledge back with you. And I can say now, you know, I'm in a place where I do consulting and I I like doing it for the insure tech companies. Not only do they not know the language of claims and underwriting or insurance in general, but the fact that I have bought and sold in the industry, I I can help them in such a different way. Where great great to educate them about what the claims process is if that's who you're selling to. But from a buying perspective, you got it all wrong. Most of them want to, they're like, I want to go for the top 10. I'm like, out of the gate, they will eat you. You don't have the infrastructure to have that. Right. And so there's insights they would never think of. And so I think depending on where your career journey is and where you want to go, these are all building blocks. They're just as a leader, they're building blocks. And sometimes I I can tell you, I have been in places where I'm like, I'm not sure why I'm taking this, but there's a reason for it. And then 10 years later, that skill set that I learned, and I'm like, there it is. Absolutely, absolutely. ⁓ they do, and it comes back. And again, even something like I seen as I was looking like lemonade today, is looking for literally just a vendor manager. That's all they want this person to do. I just want you to manage all these partnerships and these relationships and these contracts, right? And who better than a person who already learned insurance, went to work for a vendor? Understand how those contracts work, understand how this process works. You come back into this space and now you speak both languages on both sides of the table. And you can help a company and advance them so much further. So sometimes leaving and learning these skill sets and kind of going outside of this box definitely gets you an advantage for sure. Agreed. All right. Well, again, I'm gonna end on the note. You are doing this with grace and authenticity. And it's it's just I've known you and you always walk the walk and talk the talk, but but to actually watch you go through the process, it's it's it's it really something to watch and I'm I'm so glad that you're sharing it with the listeners. Well, thank you. Thank you so much again for having me. And maybe when I land my next job, we'll come back and we'll talk about it some more. I think we should do a part two. All right. Maybe sooner than later. We'll see if we can wrap it up pretty soon. There we go. Sooner rather than later. We'll definitely have some more conversations about how that experience went maybe and why I chose to watch ours. So we'll see. Sounds good. Sounds good. Thanks, Jessica. Thanks for listening to the table. If you like this episode, please follow us and subscribe so that others can find us. Until next time, go out and find a seat at your table.