Stutter With Vikesh - Australia & New Zealand

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We acknowledge and pay our respects to the traditional custodians of the lands on which we record, and especially to those who may also be living with a disability.
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Welcome to another episode where we will explore a variety of non-visible disabilities, the way in which people experience their disabilities, and discover the opportunities for society to make access and inclusion improvements that benefit everyone.
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Hi everyone, my name is James Dunn, and I'm your host.
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And like many of the guests on the Sunflower Conversations, I also live with disability, including myalgic encephalomyelitis, more commonly known as chronic fatigue syndrome, and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome.
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To catch through.
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On today's show, I'm joined by Vakesh Anand.
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Vakesh was born in New Delhi, in India, and was raised in New Jersey, in the United States.
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He now lives in Brisbane on the lands of the Turbal and Yagara peoples.
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Vakesh has over 30 years of experience in IT across the USA, Canada, and Australia, and currently works at the University of Queensland.
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Vakesh has a stutter and is dedicated to raising awareness of stuttering and creating a world in which people who stutter are given the confidence, space, time, and opportunity to speak.
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He is a TEDx speaker, founder of the Australian Stuttering Association, known as Stutter, a keynote speaker, and is a passionate advocate for anyone who has ever felt different.
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Bakesh Henan, welcome to the show.
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Thank you, James.
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Thanks for having me.
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So perhaps we might start um with the basics.
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If you could just explain for our audience what a stutter is and the different types of stutter and what causes it.
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Sure, thank you.
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So a stutter is, I guess the easiest way to explain it, it's a moment of disfluency, uh, interruption in sound when you're uh speaking.
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And there are different types of stutter in terms of the types of a physical block that you might have.
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So some of the types of blocks are you might but but but bounce on the word.
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Uh in some cases, you might slide on the word to try to get it out.
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Uh and in some cases, probably one of the more challenging is a silent block.
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And you can imagine if you're on a phone call and you're just trying to be quiet, um, you know, as a podcast listener would would understand like what just happened there, right?
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And that was me trying to get a sound out, but it's just a silent block.
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So those are the different types of blocks that occur.
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Um there are, I guess, uh, at a high level, two different types of uh people who stutter.
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So there's covert and overt.
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And so covert is really secretive.
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I'm gonna try to hide it as much as possible and try to portray myself as a fluent person.
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Um, over stutterer, it's fairly obvious.
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Uh, they're unable to really get over those sort of harder blocks, fit physical blocks.
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And um, and so it's it's it's more obvious to the listener that this is a stutter.
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Uh in terms of the cause, the cause is unknown.
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Uh and I'm not a researcher or scientist, but at the core level, it's just the way I'm wired.
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Right.
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Um, and there is no known cure uh at this time for stuttering as well.
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Great.
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Well, that's a really good explanation.
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And I think it's probably a good segue to jump into our our mythbuster question, which we normally do a bit later, but I think it it works now, um given what you've just said.
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So what is the biggest myth or misconception you find that people have about people with a stutter?
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And at the same time, we might ask a great question from our podcast community, which is connected to that, which is how do you deal with misconceptions and comments?
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Sure.
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So there are probably a small the number of continuing myths and pre-perceptions even until today in 2026.
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Uh one is that the person is lying.
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Um, two is that the person is less intelligent, and three is they're just unsure of what they want to say.
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Um, all three of which are untrue, by the way.
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Um But um, you know, I I I think the the the challenge we're stuttering is that fluent people are not fluent 100% of the time, right?
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Yep.
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Lots of people experience moments of dysfluency, whether it's a stressful situation, a job interview, etc.
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etc.
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And so they relate it back to their experience, right?
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I was nervous the last time I had a moment of dysfluency, so you must be nervous as well, right?
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And we're like, well, that's not the way it works.
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And then, and then of course you have people say, you know, oh, and you know, it's it's it's an opportunity to share that.
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No, actually, that's not what it is, it's just a stutter.
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And then you have the response of, oh, I have a stutter too.
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And I'm like, oh, I uh I don't think it's the same, you know, because again, I think people are are are are trying to be nice, right?
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But yeah, having a moment of dysfluency throughout your life is not the same as as having a stutter.
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So I think those are some of the um the most common myths that um that continue today.
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And and I guess um, you know, it's it's on us, right?
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It's upon our stuttering community to really bring awareness and educate the listener, right?
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And I'm not saying that I always bring out my PowerPoint slides and be like, let me show you what this is, but it's more about, hey, no, I didn't forget my name.
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No, I just I just have a stutter, right?
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And I'm not I'm not apologetic about it.
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Um sometimes that statement leads to an apology from the listener going, oh sorry, I didn't know, and we move on.
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And sometimes it leads to a deeper and more meaningful conversation because they go, Oh, actually, I have a friend, family, et cetera, that also has a stutter.
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And let's talk about it.
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Right.
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Um, and and because it is invisible, um, unless I'm wearing my t-shirt that says I stutter, it's it's not to be expected, right?
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And uh, and so I think people have an expectation to hear words come out a certain way, right?
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And because 99% of the the adult community is fluent and only 1% of adults in the adult community stutter, um, it's possible that they just haven't met someone who stutters yet, right?
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And and so I don't I don't give that of uh a reason for rudeness, and and I have never encountered anyone who's actually been rude about it.
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Um, I genuinely, if I think about it from the listener's perspective, they just haven't met anyone else who stutters, and it's my opportunity to provide some level of uh uh uh awareness.
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Great.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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And I guess going back to the beginning of your life, what was your earliest memory of realising
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that your speech was different?
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And was there a moment you realized that other people noticed it too?
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Yeah, good question.
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For for me, it was grade seven.
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Um, so I think around I'm trying to try to think of age groups, maybe 10, 11 or however old I was.
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Um, but for some reason I remember the first day of group grade seven, and and this was growing up, as you said, in the US.
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Um, and that first day of class, I immediately became aware that my words sounded differently than others.
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Now, I've had a stutter since I could talk.
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So I so I had always started up until that point, but I was unaware that that was happening.
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Uh, and as soon as grade seven started, and maybe it's the age, etc., uh, I was just like, oh, this this doesn't sound the same as others.
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And that resulted in me sort of talking a whole lot less, um, and starting to really become self-conscious, really become fearful of like, what are people gonna think if they hear me stutter, what's my teacher gonna think if they ask me a question and I stutter because I know the answer, right?
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I I think I'm a pretty smart person.
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Like I know the answer, but they're gonna think I don't know the answer because uh the words aren't coming out immediately and fluently.
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Um, and so and so I think that that started the the journey for for me of really trying to hide my stutter and and go into this sort of secret agent covert lifestyle where I just I just had had decided, and and I think it's a it's a it's a societal challenge we have, right?
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Like in society, and if if you look at, for example, media, fluency is right and stuttering is wrong.
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And if in in if you look at the majority of films in in history, the person who stutters is the person who is nervous, is the person who is made fun of, is the person who is less intelligent, right?
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All of the myths that I said were untrue, but if you look at the media, you were like, oh no, that that must be true.
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That's me, right?
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That that must be what this is.
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And and I also grew up in a very fast-speaking state, which is New Jersey.
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So people always told me, calm down, slow down.
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And so I I believed them for a long time, right?
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I said, you know what, this is not stuttering, I'm anxious, and I talk fast.
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And so that's what this thing is.
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I and and and I convinced myself that if I do those things and if I try to change words on the fly and become covert, then I'll be fine.
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Um, and that is mentally exhausting, right?
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I I I distinctly remember, and the this is even all through university and then into the the the workforce and technology.
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I and the ironic part is that I've worked in sales for a long time, which is which is the ironic part of a person with a stutter working in sales.
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But I I used to deliver presentations, and I think, you know, be because of my stutter, I worked harder, right?
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I memorised things, I was I was aware of like these are the words I'm gonna avoid because these are the words that I might trigger on a stuttering block.
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But I would deliver these presentations only thinking about how do I hide my stutter.
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So I would I I remember delivering a presentation, and it was it was probably one of the bigger ones, 50 to 100 people.
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My colleague said that was a great presentation.
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And I honestly couldn't remember what I said.
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The only thought was, did anyone hear me stutter?
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Um, and as you can imagine, uh that can be emotionally and mentally draining having to go through that every day.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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That would be exhausting.
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And I can imagine that when you're in a conversation with people, you're kind of running this tactical operation almost about how to get through that conversation and and and almost a chess game, which must be really exhausting.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, no, it and it and it it it really is, like I'll I'll give you a very simplistic example, right?
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But if I wanted to say that I rode my bike to work today, but I knew that I would mu uh that I might have a problem on the B sound, I would, you know, like it's it's it's a feeling you get as you're speaking.
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So I could be like, I rode my cycle today, right?
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Or I rode in today.
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So I would just skip the word uh and in that context, it still sort of makes sense, but there would be times when I would switch the word and not make sense.
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But I would rather have sounded less intelligent than been found out that I had a stutter, right?
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And when I think about that, I was like, wow, that's like I I would rather have not made sense and people think I was a fluent person not making sense than have that phys physical stuttering block, which um which says a lot about the impact that it can have on someone's life.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So it sounded like your daily mission was to avoid those words and for people to to not think you had a stutter at all.
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That that was my daily mission and my daily recap at the end of the day.
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Um, most people try to relax before they they go to sleep.
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Me, it was the opposite, right?
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I was I basically replayed the entire day every night and going, what were the moments that I might have been caught out there?
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Was it ordering that coffee in the drive-thru?
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Was it this or that?
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And then how how do I plan for that for tomorrow?
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Uh, and repeat that every night.
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So in hiding your stutter, did you feel like people would not have accepted you as much with a stutter, or was it more about you not accepting yourself?
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It it's it's probably a combination of both, but but I think the fear of of judgment was the first thing.
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Uh, especially as I entered the the the workforce, and you know, I I really wanted to strive and move up the ladder and do all these things.
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And I was afraid that if my employers, if my colleagues found out that I had a stutter, that I would be treated differently, right?
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That they wouldn't provide me the opportunities that they were a fluent person.
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Um, they may think less of me.
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Um, so so so all those thoughts went through my mind.
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And of course, I wasn't accepting of my stutter at that time.
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Um, and and that that that that was also a challenge.
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And through those teenage years and early adult years, when you were still, as you say, being a secret agent of sorts, did you still speak less than you think you otherwise would have because of that?
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Like you said, when you were a child, you you didn't speak as much, but did that continue on into later years or I think as I became um older and you know, I guess in in university and beyond, I just became smarter.
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And so my vocabulary became broader.
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So I think I was more social than I was in primary school and high school.
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Um but uh and if it makes sense, like cautiously social, right?
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So I would choose the interactions of of which I decided to go, right?
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And and I think social environments, like I found it easier to present to a hundred people because that was structured words that I knew.
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I found it more challenging to go to a meal with friends because then you don't know what the next question is gonna be.
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Yeah, so and you know, and I went, but I was I was always very cautious, right?
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Um, I'll give you another example of that cautiousness is I typically ordered what was easier to say, right?
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So I ordered my meal based, and this is not uncommon, by the way.
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There are many people who stutter around the world, if they're listening to this, could probably relate.
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So going, there are many times that I wanted to order one thing, and I got up to the counter and I said, That's probably not gonna come out fluently.
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I'm gonna order something else.
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And then you you and then you know, you can just this is where I I I get emotional thinking about this, but you can imagine like I'm I'm eating a meal that I don't even want because of fear of judgment from a worker at a a place that I may never even see again, right?
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And that like yeah, it's um it's it's it's it's it's powerful.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And that level of adjustment is huge, right?
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Like that that you're going to to not put yourself in that situation where you have the starter and have to explain that.
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Did you feel some form of grief from constantly having to kind of edit yourself like that?
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Um I I don't know if I felt grief.
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I I genuinely felt that I was speaking the wrong way.
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Yeah.
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And and I felt that I had to make things right to fit into this fluent society that I lived in.
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Um and so it wasn't grief, it was more of shame.
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Guilt.
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Okay.
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Why me?
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You know, why am I the only one that that that speaks like this in the whole world?
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Um, embarrassment, you know.
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Um, and and the guilt parts is interesting, right?
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Because I felt guilty that people may have to wait a few extra seconds for me to finish my thought.
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Yeah.
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Were there any people around you for whom you didn't feel you had to hide the stutter?
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Or was it everybody in your life in those sort of teenage and early adult years?
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It was everybody.
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Um Yeah, it was Full secret agent.
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There was not not even my not even my family.
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I I just I just convinced myself that this is not stuttering and I'm just going to change my words and not stutter.
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Aaron Powell And what level of um I guess that that vigilance what that you had to have, what impact did that have on your nervous system over over time?
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Yeah, I think it definitely increased my anxiety because I had this I was on a constant high, right?
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I was I was constantly elevated um 24-7.
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And um and it was exhausting, right?
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It it was it was definitely exhausting.
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And um yeah, I don't I some of and some of my sort of earlier e even childhoods are are sort of blanks in my memory because I actually don't remember like you know, I think my brain had decided just to block out some of those memories as as well.
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Yeah.
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So they were the teenage years and and early adult years, but how old were you when you decided to not hide your stutter anymore?
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And did something happen at that time of your life that that led you to that decision?
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Yeah, so I was 28 years old
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and I had lost my um one of my first tech jobs that I had been in for six years.
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So I had built a level of confidence in the company and in myself, and even though I was still covert, I still was you know have was gaining confidence in in myself.
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And I it was it was a company-wide um reduction in force.
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So it wasn't just me, it was like the majority of our office.
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Um and my speech really went back to pre-high school days.
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It really went from covert to overt.
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I was struggling to even to hide it anymore.
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Um, and and that's when I I reached out to a friend from uni who I knew was studying to be a speechy at the time.
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And they said, Have you heard of the the NSA?
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And no, this is not the national uh security agency, it's the National Stuttering Association in the US.
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And at the age of 28 years old, I actually went to my first stuttering support group meeting uh at the end of 2001, and that was the first time I had ever not only met other people who stuttered, but really spoke about my stuttering and spoke that was the first time I spoke without fear.
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Wow.
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Probably ever.
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What was scary about that first time about making a stutter visible?
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Um I I'll be honest, I didn't know if I belonged there, right?
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Some people's this disfluencies were a lot more apparent than mine.
00:20:59.390 --> 00:21:04.829
And because I was still in the covert over stage, I was, you know, I could sort of get by.
00:21:04.829 --> 00:21:08.269
And then I thought, is this do I belong here?
00:21:08.269 --> 00:21:09.869
Am I a person who stutters?
00:21:09.869 --> 00:21:11.470
Am I what do I do?
00:21:11.470 --> 00:21:18.109
Um but yeah, it was but it was it was a light bulb moment for me, right?
00:21:18.109 --> 00:21:22.509
Because prior to then I had thought, I'm the only person in the world that speaks like this.
00:21:22.509 --> 00:21:26.670
Um and and it was unbelievable, right?
00:21:26.670 --> 00:21:29.789
I uh I guess from an excitement perspective, yeah.
00:21:29.789 --> 00:21:32.349
They all had similar stories, right?
00:21:32.349 --> 00:21:41.069
Similar stories of the food or ordering something else, of drive-throughs, and just all similar experiences.
00:21:41.069 --> 00:21:46.269
And so that was yeah, uh like I think it it changed my life.
00:21:46.269 --> 00:21:47.069
Wow.
00:21:47.069 --> 00:21:48.029
That's awesome.
00:21:48.190 --> 00:21:50.190
And did you feel that was the same for other people there?
00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:56.029
You said that they had other conditions or maybe more severe forms, but did you sense it was life changing for some of those people too?
00:21:56.430 --> 00:21:59.390
Um, I mean uh I would think so.
00:21:59.390 --> 00:22:07.309
I mean, people I generally saw the the same people coming back uh usually e every month for for the meetings.
00:22:07.309 --> 00:22:17.069
Um so I think there's something to be said about when you find your like-minded community, your tribe.
00:22:17.069 --> 00:22:26.750
Um, you know, and when it comes to stuttering, and I I could tell you when I meet someone who stutters, we have this immediate connection, right?
00:22:26.750 --> 00:22:29.710
And it transcends anything else, right?
00:22:29.710 --> 00:22:33.549
Race, ethnicity, views, points around the world, it doesn't matter, right?
00:22:33.549 --> 00:22:47.230
Because we both have experienced life with this unique perspective and viewpoint, and unfortunately, probably bad experiences, but it it's that bond, right?
00:22:47.230 --> 00:23:00.430
And and it's it's hard to explain to someone who doesn't stutter what it's actually like to be in that moment of flight or fight, or you know, that tension, the block, the everything.
00:23:00.430 --> 00:23:09.710
But when you meet someone who stutters, you're like, it's like, you know, shoulders down, and I have I have nothing to hide anymore.
00:23:09.710 --> 00:23:35.390
Yeah, good question.
00:23:35.390 --> 00:23:38.990
I um so it was definitely a journey, right?
00:23:38.990 --> 00:23:43.230
And I say, I mean, that was 2001, and we're in 2026.
00:23:43.230 --> 00:23:46.509
So for 25 years, it's been a journey, right?
00:23:46.509 --> 00:23:55.309
And for some people who stutter, the journey goes longer, and for some people, the journey is shorter, and they immediately click and they f figure it all out, right?
00:23:55.309 --> 00:24:07.710
Um, for me, I could tell you, for the first six months, on the first Wednesday evening of every month, I lied to my roommate and I told him I was going to the Barnes and Nobles bookstore.
00:24:07.710 --> 00:24:17.950
Um, and then eventually, six months and six months of meetings, and I was like, okay, I gotta, you know, I'm trying to get this acceptance thing going, but this isn't good, right?
00:24:17.950 --> 00:24:23.230
Like I'm going through these meetings and I feel great, but I'm lying to one of my best friends and roommates, right?
00:24:23.230 --> 00:24:24.430
Of where I'm going.
00:24:24.430 --> 00:24:28.589
So I after six months, I said, Oh, I gotta tell you something.
00:24:28.589 --> 00:24:38.910
So, you know, on like the first Wednesday, I I go to the Bars of the Nobles, I was like, I'm imagining I go to a bookstore, I'm going to a support group meeting for people who stutter.
00:24:38.910 --> 00:24:45.150
And this is also where I get emotional because his question, his response was very interesting.
00:24:45.150 --> 00:24:47.069
He's like, Why'd you lie?
00:24:47.069 --> 00:24:49.470
I said, Because I have a stutter.
00:24:49.470 --> 00:24:54.829
And he said, He said, But I've always known you stuttered.
00:24:54.829 --> 00:24:56.190
So why'd you lie?
00:24:56.190 --> 00:24:59.549
And it it was uh it was profound, right?
00:24:59.549 --> 00:25:04.269
Because here I thought that I was the best secret agent in the world.
00:25:04.269 --> 00:25:12.430
And the more people I told, the more I realized that I would never get a job at the CIA because I had failed, right?
00:25:12.430 --> 00:25:35.390
I had failed in the sense that everyone that I came out to, and that was my best friend and roommate, then I um I actually spoke to my mom, who I didn't realize at the time, had felt guilty that she was the cause of my stutter because my parents are separated, and and she thought that's why I stuttered.
00:25:35.390 --> 00:25:51.309
So she had had carried all this guilt until that that moment that I spoke to her, like, hey, by the way, I've been going to support groups, and you know, I stutter, and she's like, and so that was uh that was an amazing moment to be able to tell her it's not your fault, it's just the way I'm wired.
00:25:51.309 --> 00:25:57.230
But the more people I told, uh, I spoke to my brother, he obviously already knew.
00:25:57.230 --> 00:26:10.829
Um, and then I spoke to people at work eventually, again, like a few years later, and they said, Yeah, I I I remember going into my boss's office, and this is when the King's speech had won the Oscars.
00:26:10.829 --> 00:26:12.829
And I said, I went in, I was like, Oh, do you have a minute?
00:26:12.829 --> 00:26:16.509
Said, Yeah, you know, the king and I have something in common.
00:26:16.509 --> 00:26:20.349
No, it's not that, you know, I'm royalty, it's that we both have a stutter.
00:26:20.349 --> 00:26:23.629
And he and he said, Yeah, uh, I know.
00:26:23.629 --> 00:26:25.309
Is there anything I can help you with?
00:26:25.309 --> 00:26:27.470
I was like, You you already know?
00:26:27.470 --> 00:26:29.470
Yeah, yeah, I've I've I've always known.
00:26:29.470 --> 00:26:33.309
He said, Oh, oh, can I tell my boss, my vice president?
00:26:33.309 --> 00:26:34.269
Yep, you can tell him.
00:26:34.269 --> 00:26:35.549
Told him, yep, I know.
00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:36.910
Is there anything else I can help you with?
00:26:36.910 --> 00:26:44.190
I don't tell you, and so the more people I told, I was like, I'm I'm really a bad secret agent, but but no one cared.
00:26:44.190 --> 00:26:46.990
Yeah, no one ever cared.
00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:51.869
Um no one ever brought it up because I never brought it up, right?
00:26:51.869 --> 00:26:55.629
And it was like, well, if I'm not comfortable talking about it, they weren't gonna bring it up.
00:26:55.629 --> 00:27:00.670
Um but it was it was amazing, right?
00:27:00.670 --> 00:27:02.750
I I I don't even know how to explain it.
00:27:02.750 --> 00:27:22.430
Just the more people I told, the less self-conscious I became, the less I cared about what people thought, the more I just said, you know what, it's okay to have a stutter and say what you want to say, regardless of how the words come out.
00:27:22.750 --> 00:27:26.589
That's awesome that you felt that all those people that were in your life did accept it.
00:27:26.589 --> 00:27:28.430
And a lot of them already knew it.
00:27:28.430 --> 00:27:42.750
Um as you said that you know makes you uh not not the secret agent you thought you were, but um, it would have been nice to to to know that they knew it and you know accepted you through all those years, even if it was so challenging, it was so challenging for all those years.
00:27:42.750 --> 00:27:46.509
But it would have been nice to reflect on that knowing that they were so supportive.
00:27:46.910 --> 00:27:57.710
Yeah, no, it was it was an un it was a it was a very amazing experience, I think that that whole part of my journey.
00:27:57.710 --> 00:28:09.549
Uh I I I remember going to my one one of my first conferences for people who stutter, and that was around 2004-2005, and so about 600 people at the conference.
00:28:09.549 --> 00:28:18.829
And the interesting part about a stuttering conference is that we become the 99% and fluent people become the 1%.
00:28:18.829 --> 00:28:21.470
And I can't even explain it.
00:28:21.470 --> 00:28:22.190
Right?
00:28:22.190 --> 00:28:34.750
It's just I was like, wait, this is so it was that support group meeting amplified on such a scale that I can't even explain.
00:28:34.750 --> 00:28:38.430
And I met people from all walks of life at these conferences, right?
00:28:38.430 --> 00:28:47.069
People um were lawyers and judges and this, and and and and because I I really thought, you know, am I limited to what I can do?
00:28:47.069 --> 00:28:55.710
And then you go to these conferences and you meet people from all around the world that are doing what they want, irrespective of their stutter.
00:28:56.029 --> 00:29:03.950
That must have been incredibly uplifting to be around a full room, as you say, of people who are stuttering in the f fluent people, the old ones out.
00:29:08.430 --> 00:29:15.789
I haven't been to a conference in a few years, and I am looking forward to trying to get to one soon.
00:29:16.190 --> 00:29:16.910
Absolutely.
00:29:16.910 --> 00:29:25.230
So obviously there were a lot of challenges with this through your childhood, teenage years, early adult years, and I'm sure still to this day.
00:29:25.230 --> 00:29:30.750
But do you think that your starter has shaped your personality in positive ways as well?
00:29:31.309 --> 00:29:33.710
I think it has made me a great listener.
00:29:33.710 --> 00:29:34.750
Yep.
00:29:34.750 --> 00:29:38.589
Um, because for a lot of times I just listened.
00:29:38.589 --> 00:29:42.509
I I I I I didn't speak my mind.
00:29:42.509 --> 00:29:48.670
And I and I know while that sounds bad, I I think it has uh allowed me to become a great listener.
00:29:48.670 --> 00:29:59.069
It has, I think, allowed me to be more is the word empathetic, but I'm I'm I'm more accepting of anyone that has a difference.
00:29:59.069 --> 00:30:02.910
Because if the whole world was the same, how boring would it be?
00:30:02.910 --> 00:30:03.230
Right?
00:30:03.230 --> 00:30:08.430
Like we we are all unique and we all have something to contribute.
00:30:08.430 --> 00:30:13.309
And and and and I think I am the person I am because of my stutter.
00:30:13.710 --> 00:30:19.069
So your interest in other people who are different uh is probably a good segue into your advocacy work.
00:30:19.069 --> 00:30:28.190
So when did you go beyond that point of being comfortable with your stutter to then being really open about it and actually advocating for others?
00:30:28.589 --> 00:30:33.230
Yeah, so there was um as but anything, there's always ups and downs.
00:30:33.230 --> 00:30:43.309
So there was a a moment in time, it was I could tell you the exact day probably, which is not which which is so impactful that it affected me.
00:30:43.309 --> 00:31:03.789
Uh but December 2012 was when uh we were were moving from Toronto, Canada to Brisbane, Australia, and the moving company came and the it was early in the morning, I opened the door, and the person introduced themselves, and I said, I'm the Vikesh.
00:31:03.789 --> 00:31:05.309
And and I studied on my name.
00:31:05.309 --> 00:31:08.670
By the way, I still stutter on my name today, it's just the way I'm wired.
00:31:08.670 --> 00:31:15.470
So I stuttered on my name, and the person said, which I I think is the worst question in the world, did you forget your name?
00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:20.109
And in that moment, even though, again, this is 2012, right?
00:31:20.109 --> 00:31:27.789
I had gone to my first work remaining in 2001, I had been to some conferences, so I thought I was fairly acceptance of my stutter, and I lied.
00:31:27.789 --> 00:31:29.629
I said, No, I'm just tired.
00:31:29.629 --> 00:31:39.470
And it was that moment, and then I arrived at Australia, and I'm like, why did I lie to someone that I'm never gonna see again?
00:31:39.470 --> 00:31:40.109
Right.
00:31:40.109 --> 00:31:54.190
So I still, even though I was along this road of acceptance, I still had this fear, and that's when I I realized that I also need to build confidence in in myself as a person, as a human.
00:31:54.190 --> 00:32:03.629
And so I I really went down the the path of building confidence, and I've done things like join Toastmasters along the way.
00:32:03.629 --> 00:32:13.150
Um, you know, my physical health became a lot more important to me because, you know, the better I felt about myself, the more confident I could feel.
00:32:13.150 --> 00:32:25.470
And then and then uh it was around that time that I I decided, you know what, I also want to um share what I'm I'm I'm learning and my journey.
00:32:25.470 --> 00:32:38.589
So I so so I actually started to become a presenter at some of these same conferences that I had been attending over the years as an attendee and share some of that story and and journey as well.
00:32:38.910 --> 00:32:39.390
That's great.
00:32:39.390 --> 00:32:49.069
So it sounds like it is like a lot of people with um some kind of health condition or or challenge, I guess, of any kind, it can often be a long journey.
00:32:49.069 --> 00:32:52.430
And it was a bit of a two steps forward, one step back type journey for you.
00:32:52.430 --> 00:32:59.789
And that experience with with the removalist must have really hit you because I mean it seems like a completely nonsensical response from that person.
00:32:59.789 --> 00:33:03.390
And I can see how that would have you know really hit you hard.
00:33:03.390 --> 00:33:06.910
And I guess you have those knocks along the way, but you keep pushing forward.
00:33:06.910 --> 00:33:09.549
And you and you've done your advocacy, which is great.
00:33:09.549 --> 00:33:18.430
It sounds like your advocacy and your acceptance of the stutter are kind of intertwined, like it's not like you fully accepted yourself before you did the advocacy.
00:33:18.430 --> 00:33:21.629
The advocacy is helping you with the continued acceptance.
00:33:21.629 --> 00:33:22.349
Is that right?
00:33:22.349 --> 00:33:23.390
Are they sort of intertwined?
00:33:23.629 --> 00:33:26.190
Yeah, that's a that's that's an i interesting statement.
00:33:26.190 --> 00:33:28.750
Yeah, I I would agree, right?
00:33:28.750 --> 00:33:46.670
The more I speak about stuttering, the more I meet other people who stutter through, you know, uh through Australian Stuttering Association, um, also not stutter, the the the more I do that, I always feel better, right?
00:33:46.670 --> 00:33:50.589
Because I don't think I can just sit back and relax, right?
00:33:50.589 --> 00:33:54.190
I think I I I have a voice, right?
00:33:54.190 --> 00:33:57.789
And for a long time I didn't use it, right?
00:33:57.789 --> 00:34:03.549
I I I I tell people because some people will tell you I I speak too much.
00:34:03.549 --> 00:34:08.030
And I'll say yes, because I have a lot of time to make up for, right?
00:34:08.030 --> 00:34:11.789
Because for a lot of my life, I didn't speak my mind.
00:34:11.869 --> 00:34:12.110
Yeah.
00:34:12.269 --> 00:34:21.150
And I think if I have a voice and and an opportunity um to help others along the way, why wouldn't I?
00:34:21.470 --> 00:34:22.110
Absolutely.
00:34:22.110 --> 00:34:26.110
So, what sort of work are you doing with Stutter to help people?
00:34:26.510 --> 00:34:32.510
So I started Stutter with a few other people that that helped me um almost three years ago now.
00:34:32.510 --> 00:34:40.750
And the main thing we do is that we have a monthly online um chat and it's called Speak Freely.
00:34:40.750 --> 00:34:47.950
And as the the word implies, as the words imply, uh, people who stutter can join and speak as they want, right?
00:34:47.950 --> 00:34:56.430
Some people are joining because they really want to practice some sort of um speech therapy technique that they're working on.
00:34:56.430 --> 00:34:57.870
That's completely fine.
00:34:57.870 --> 00:35:02.510
Some people join and just want to speak as they are, that's completely fine.
00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:05.310
And some people join and do a hybrid of both, right?
00:35:05.310 --> 00:35:08.590
Um, so for for us, it's a judgment-free zone.
00:35:08.590 --> 00:35:14.350
Um, and we don't necessarily even talk about stuttering the whole time, right?
00:35:14.350 --> 00:35:22.190
It's just it's just an opportunity for one hour, and it used to be once a month, and now we've increased it this year to twice a month.
00:35:22.190 --> 00:35:33.710
Um, and it's just an opportunity to build that community, meet other people without any pressures that they may feel and we may feel in our day-to-day lives, right?
00:35:33.710 --> 00:35:39.150
So we can just talk without fear of like, am I gonna be judged?
00:35:39.150 --> 00:35:40.590
Should I change my words?
00:35:40.590 --> 00:35:48.510
No, just come as you are, and um and I think it's yeah, it's it's been a it's been a great journey.
00:35:48.830 --> 00:35:49.230
Absolutely.
00:35:49.230 --> 00:35:55.470
And it sounds like that would be an incredibly positive environment for people and would be uplifting and people would leave with confidence.
00:35:55.790 --> 00:36:04.830
Yeah, and and that really is one of my main sort of goals and messages is to help people build confidence in themselves, right?
00:36:04.830 --> 00:36:12.270
Because I I I think stuttering is too unique to have like a one size fits all as it relates to therapy if someone wanted it, right?
00:36:12.270 --> 00:36:22.110
So I I always tell people like you you have to try to build confidence in yourself, and that that may involve speech modification tools.
00:36:22.110 --> 00:36:24.190
It it may not, right?
00:36:24.190 --> 00:36:34.110
It's just you know, get to a point in your life where you you're ordering the food you want to order, you're saying what you want to say without fear of that judgment.
00:36:34.510 --> 00:36:35.230
Yeah, that's great.
00:36:35.230 --> 00:36:44.990
And I do think that those forums are so beneficial for so many different types of um challenges that people have in life because you can hear what other people do.
00:36:44.990 --> 00:36:49.390
Because as you said, for for a lot of conditions, there isn't a one size fits all.
00:36:49.390 --> 00:36:51.150
Probably probably none.
00:36:51.150 --> 00:36:57.470
So hearing other people's experiences, you can take those elements of what you think might work for you.
00:36:57.470 --> 00:37:00.510
And it sounds like that works really well um for stuttering.
00:37:01.070 --> 00:37:03.390
No, it it it definitely does.
00:37:03.390 --> 00:37:10.510
And and people can come with specific questions of, you know, I I I had this or what should I do?
00:37:10.510 --> 00:37:13.470
I'm I'm I'm practicing for a job interview, for example.
00:37:13.470 --> 00:37:14.590
That's that's quite common.
00:37:14.590 --> 00:37:18.670
Job interviews are always a stressful situation for anyone.
00:37:18.670 --> 00:37:19.150
Yeah.
00:37:19.150 --> 00:37:23.150
And if you have a stutter, then that just sort of amplifies it a bit more as well.
00:37:23.470 --> 00:37:23.950
Yeah.
00:37:23.950 --> 00:37:29.390
So connecting to the sunflower, how has wearing the sunflower helped you?
00:37:30.190 --> 00:37:32.590
So I um I'll start off by
00:37:32.590 --> 00:37:37.630
saying that I I learned about the Hidden Disability Sunflower probably recently in the last couple of years.
00:37:37.630 --> 00:37:47.950
And so at the University of Queensland at UQ, there was a morning tea um about the Hidden Hidden Disability Sunflower that was organized by someone else.
00:37:47.950 --> 00:38:02.670
And I went to the morning tea and I was immediately drawn to the similarities that I and stuttering uh has and had with other uh hidden disabilities.
00:38:02.670 --> 00:38:16.910
Um, and I immediately I I I couldn't believe that one, I had never heard of it, but as soon as I heard of it, I'm like, this is an amazing opportunity to um help the broader sense, right?
00:38:16.910 --> 00:38:21.790
So including people who stutter, but just um so many people with hidden disabilities.
00:38:21.790 --> 00:38:29.550
And and I think from my perspective, what it brings to me is confidence.
00:38:29.550 --> 00:38:44.510
Like I'm pretty confident, but it just adds to my confidence because wearing the the lanyard around my workplace uh is an indication that hey I have uh a hidden disability.
00:38:44.510 --> 00:38:50.910
This interaction may take slightly longer, but all you need to do is wait.
00:38:50.910 --> 00:38:51.470
Right?
00:38:51.470 --> 00:38:56.830
And and and I think um so many people also ask, hey, what does this mean?
00:38:56.830 --> 00:38:59.870
So it's it's an opportunity for awareness as well.
00:38:59.870 --> 00:39:12.750
Um, we as the as as UQ are a member of the Hidden Space Sunflower program, but um because I hadn't heard about it back then, I'm like, hey, how do we bring more awareness?
00:39:12.750 --> 00:39:14.030
Like I never even knew.
00:39:14.030 --> 00:39:27.230
What would so I I spoke to a few people and fast forward after a student staff partnership where we engage with um two other colleagues and four students, and the students did most of the work.
00:39:27.230 --> 00:39:47.390
Um, and then we launched, we've sort of had an official launch on on all of our campuses and uh almost all of our digital screens now have uh an image that was approved by uh both brand teams, UQ brand as well as Hidden Disabilities brand team.
00:39:47.390 --> 00:39:55.470
Um and it just shows that we are um a member and we are a community that is accepting.
00:39:55.470 --> 00:40:03.630
And I think the most powerful place that I've seen the screen is at Student Central here on our main campus.
00:40:03.630 --> 00:40:15.390
Um, because Student Central, even though the word says Student Central, everyone that needs to get, like every staff member even that needs to get a staff ID has to go to Student Central.
00:40:15.390 --> 00:40:19.390
So anyone who starts as a student has to go to Student Central.
00:40:19.390 --> 00:40:34.750
So we're talking, you know, I think we're at 59,000 students and 15,000 staff, like it's a large cohort of people that are experiencing the sign and experiencing this this opportunity.
00:40:34.750 --> 00:40:46.270
Imagine coming to a campus and and and if if you already know about the hidden disability sunflower, and then you see that image, you're like, I've come to a place that will accept me for who I am.
00:40:46.510 --> 00:40:47.790
Yeah, that is fantastic.
00:40:47.790 --> 00:40:55.390
It sounds like it is a really inclusive community there at the university, which must make going to work a lot easier and and enjoyable.
00:40:55.390 --> 00:41:01.070
And I can definitely r relate to your experience with first coming across the sunflower.
00:41:01.070 --> 00:41:07.790
I sort of didn't know it, and then I sort of saw it kind of everywhere and and it it really resonated with me because it's so simple.
00:41:07.790 --> 00:41:13.230
It's just that conversation starter and it just helps people to feel comfortable.
00:41:13.230 --> 00:41:14.990
And it's great that you've experienced that.
00:41:14.990 --> 00:41:26.270
And I can see how people with a starter would definitely benefit from it because, like you said, it just allows a little bit more time and for people to be a little bit more curious, I guess, which is helpful.
00:41:26.590 --> 00:41:27.230
Exactly.
00:41:27.230 --> 00:41:36.510
And you know, I have I've I've certainly noticed more and more people are wearing the sunflower lanyard around campus.
00:41:36.510 --> 00:41:41.710
I I was going for a coffee yesterday and and I saw a couple other people that had it on.
00:41:41.710 --> 00:41:50.030
Um, I think, and you know, hopefully I've helped with also trying to build build confidence in some of these people as well, right?
00:41:50.030 --> 00:41:56.750
So I've organized, so after after that morning tea, I said I'm gonna organize the morning teas in the buildings that I support as well.
00:41:56.750 --> 00:42:06.590
And and and and I remember um we've had people that have initially asked for a bracelet, you know, um, uh, or the sorry, the the armband.
00:42:06.590 --> 00:42:08.110
Is this what's called armband?
00:42:08.110 --> 00:42:14.350
And um, and then they've come back sort of a couple of months later like, okay, I'm ready now for the for the lanyard, right?
00:42:14.350 --> 00:42:22.990
So they have in themselves built up the confidence saying, you know what, I I I had this on my arm, but I'm ready now for the for the for the lanyard.
00:42:22.990 --> 00:42:28.350
And that's that's amazing to see that growth just within our own community.
00:42:28.670 --> 00:42:29.950
Yeah, that's that's great.
00:42:29.950 --> 00:42:46.670
And it sounds like because you're now sort of going beyond just your starter community in terms of your support and advocacy to to everyone with non-visible disabilities, you can probably sense that a lot of people have also been a secret agent in their lives, either their whole life or for parts of their lives.
00:42:46.670 --> 00:42:48.670
So that's an experience you could relate to.
00:42:48.990 --> 00:42:52.110
Yeah, for for uh definitely, definitely.
00:42:52.110 --> 00:43:01.870
I mean, the the fact that there's over 800 hidden disabilities on the hidden disabilities website will just show you the breadth of how wide this goes.
00:43:01.870 --> 00:43:09.710
And yeah, there there are people that have come to these morning tees and these the these morning tees, I mean, I call them a morning tea.
00:43:09.710 --> 00:43:12.750
They're really like a support group meeting, right?
00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:18.030
Because people will come and share things like that they have never shared before.
00:43:18.030 --> 00:43:36.270
Um, and then what's what's also amazing is that we have you know, leadership people will come, group leaders, directors that are really interested in in some cases, also sharing their hidden disabilities, which you know that the higher you go, I think they always feel like I don't know if I can.
00:43:36.270 --> 00:43:43.150
So, so that's been I think very amazing and and um and and I appreciate them for doing that.
00:43:43.150 --> 00:43:50.110
But then also other people come and um with their employees and just really wanting to learn.
00:43:50.110 --> 00:43:57.870
I, you know, I don't have a hidden disability, and they've told me, but I've come to learn how can I support this person that does, or this staff member or my team.
00:43:57.870 --> 00:43:59.870
And and that's amazing as well, right?
00:43:59.870 --> 00:44:08.270
Is that we also have people not only wearing the green lanyards, but we have also people wearing the white lanyards indicating that, hey.
00:44:08.270 --> 00:44:09.150
Hey, you know what?
00:44:09.150 --> 00:44:15.310
I don't have a hidden disability, but I uh understand and appreciate and support people with hidden disabilities.
00:44:15.630 --> 00:44:16.190
Absolutely.
00:44:16.190 --> 00:44:27.390
I mean, the the success of the initiative relies on the continued growth of those people who are the supporters um who are aware of the initiative because they're the ones who are often going to be providing the help.
00:44:27.390 --> 00:44:31.710
So the work you're doing there is great too, um particularly at UQ.
00:44:31.710 --> 00:44:37.870
Um so just coming back to your situation with the um stutter and how people might be able to help.
00:44:37.870 --> 00:44:44.670
So what are some of the most helpful and least helpful ways that people respond to you when when you stutter?
00:44:45.070 --> 00:44:46.830
I'm gonna tell you the number one tip.
00:44:46.830 --> 00:44:49.390
And I'm gonna tell you your listeners the number one tip.
00:44:49.390 --> 00:44:56.190
And as much as you may think you're being helpful, please don't finish our sentences.
00:44:56.190 --> 00:44:59.870
Please, please, please do not finish our sentences.
00:44:59.870 --> 00:45:04.990
And I'm gonna sort of give an example of I can see the intention why.
00:45:04.990 --> 00:45:05.630
Right?
00:45:05.630 --> 00:45:12.350
If I see someone that is at a crosswalk and I think they may need assistance to cross the street, right?
00:45:12.350 --> 00:45:15.390
So I can go by, hey, would you like me to help you?
00:45:15.390 --> 00:45:21.950
So they can either respond with, get away from me, you creep, or they can say, Yes, I appreciate the assistance.
00:45:21.950 --> 00:45:27.310
So I think the intention of completing our sentences is always genuine, right?
00:45:27.310 --> 00:45:29.150
I don't think people are trying to be rude.
00:45:29.150 --> 00:45:35.790
I think they see someone who is either struggling, stumbling, or they're trying to think of what they want to say.
00:45:35.790 --> 00:45:37.310
Let me help them out.
00:45:37.310 --> 00:45:37.870
Right.
00:45:37.870 --> 00:45:46.750
And in our case, it's very demoralizing, it's very deflating um to have that happen to us, right?
00:45:46.750 --> 00:45:52.110
So I think for for me, please don't finish our sentences, right?
00:45:52.110 --> 00:45:55.150
And just give us the time to to finish.
00:45:55.150 --> 00:46:01.310
I I think that's that's probably the number one tip I can give.
00:46:01.710 --> 00:46:03.630
That is a fantastic tip, Vagesh.
00:46:03.630 --> 00:46:07.230
And I think when people hear that, I'm sure they will do that.
00:46:07.230 --> 00:46:17.230
And as you say, um people probably do have good intentions, um, but when you know the impact it has on someone and it is demoralizing, as you say, then you know, people won't do that.
00:46:17.230 --> 00:46:21.230
And so hopefully everyone listening will take that on board.
00:46:21.230 --> 00:46:22.350
I I certainly have.
00:46:22.350 --> 00:46:40.030
So in addition to those examples you've already provided, our final question is always around change and what's one small change that individuals or organizations could make tomorrow to improve the lives of people with a stutter or any other life-changing non-visible illness or health condition?
00:46:40.430 --> 00:46:43.470
I'm gonna say um probably two things.
00:46:43.470 --> 00:46:46.510
I know I I know you said say one, but I'm a rule breaker.
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:56.030
So uh one is if your organization hasn't heard about the Hidden Disabilities initiative, uh sign up.
00:46:56.030 --> 00:46:56.670
Right?
00:46:56.670 --> 00:47:00.030
Like it's not like in the big scheme of things, it's not that much money.
00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:10.910
Um and and and and I think number two is you know, it's it's one thing to talk about being inclusive.
00:47:10.910 --> 00:47:14.830
To me, you can really show that, right?
00:47:14.830 --> 00:47:22.510
You can really uh empower people by bringing awareness of something like hidden disabilities, right?
00:47:22.510 --> 00:47:28.670
I you know, I think I mentioned earlier, like the challenge with hidden disabilities, and I love the tagline, right?
00:47:28.670 --> 00:47:31.070
Making the invisible visible, right?
00:47:31.070 --> 00:47:42.910
Is that you know people aren't going to immediately come out and share their vulnerability if they don't feel confident that leadership is on board to accept that, right?
00:47:42.910 --> 00:47:44.430
So it's a two-way street.
00:47:44.430 --> 00:47:52.990
Uh so I would encourage organizations um to really show that support, inclusiveness from the top down, right?
00:47:52.990 --> 00:47:54.990
It's not gonna start from the bottom.
00:47:54.990 --> 00:48:04.190
No one's gonna walk in with a lanyard um and and and you know, hope and hope that everything is fine, right?
00:48:04.190 --> 00:48:13.630
They're you know, I I have a level of confidence, so I have worn it around, and I know that my leadership have been extremely supportive of my initiatives, right?
00:48:13.630 --> 00:48:18.750
But I've also met colleagues who haven't been as comfortable or confident, right?
00:48:18.750 --> 00:48:27.390
And that's where I have challenged sort of leaders within the university, going, hey, I know you, you know, we talk a good game about being inclusive.
00:48:27.390 --> 00:48:32.430
Did you know that you have people in your team that aren't really feeling that that comfortable, right?
00:48:32.430 --> 00:48:37.070
So it's I think it's an opportunity um to really show that, right?
00:48:37.070 --> 00:48:38.910
Lead by example.
00:48:39.310 --> 00:48:39.710
Absolutely.
00:48:39.710 --> 00:48:40.510
I think you're right.
00:48:40.510 --> 00:48:50.430
The leadership in an organization is incredibly important to setting the tone and seeing the culture and through that, the level of um inclusiveness in an organization.
00:48:50.430 --> 00:49:03.710
So I think we're getting a lot of organizations joining the initiative, which is fantastic, and their leadership is on board, and it just makes it so much easier for everyone else if you're in a in an organization where everyone understands and is on board, which is great.
00:49:03.710 --> 00:49:07.230
Okay, it's been fantastic to chat with you today.
00:49:07.230 --> 00:49:08.510
Um, it's been really interesting.
00:49:08.510 --> 00:49:16.350
I've certainly learned a lot about um stuttering and what it's like to to live with a stutter, and it's been really uplifting too.
00:49:16.350 --> 00:49:21.150
You've you've got so many positive stories, um, which I'm sure our listeners have loved listening to.
00:49:21.150 --> 00:49:25.550
And thank you also for the work that you're doing, both in your stuttering community.
00:49:25.550 --> 00:49:33.230
It sounds like that's making a really big difference to people, but also with the Sunfire and the broader uh inclusive initiative that the Sunfire is.
00:49:33.230 --> 00:49:39.230
Sounds like the University of Queensland is a really uplifting, inclusive place to work, and you've been a big part of that.
00:49:39.230 --> 00:49:41.870
So thank you so much and and all the best.
00:49:42.190 --> 00:49:46.350
Thank you very much, James, and thanks, thanks again for the opportunity, right?
00:49:46.350 --> 00:49:51.790
I I truly believe that um we have to advocate and educate.
00:49:51.790 --> 00:49:53.870
It's not going to happen on its own, right?
00:49:53.870 --> 00:49:55.230
It's it's just not, right?
00:49:55.230 --> 00:49:59.550
So as as as a community, it's it's it's on us.
00:49:59.550 --> 00:50:06.110
So thank you for um allowing me this time and and and space as well to speak.
00:50:06.430 --> 00:50:08.990
Thank you for joining us for another Sunflower Conversation.
00:50:08.990 --> 00:50:25.550
Please keep the conversation going via our website, hdsunflower.com forward slash AU, on Facebook at Hidden DisabilitiesANZ, on Instagram at hidden disabilities underscore ANZ, and on LinkedIn at Hidden Disabilities Sunflower-Australia and New Zealand.
00:50:25.550 --> 00:50:31.710
You can also visit our website if your organisation or an organisation you know is interested in becoming a Sunflower member.
00:50:31.710 --> 00:50:41.470
If you would like to submit a question for one of our guests to answer on a future episode, please direct message us on socials or email us at hds events at Bailey House.
00:50:41.470 --> 00:50:46.510
That's B-A-Y-L-E-Y-H-O-U-S E.org.au.
00:50:46.510 --> 00:50:54.990
Please help, have patience, show kindness to others, and join us again soon, making the invisible visible with the Hidden Disability Sunflower.