The McMansion Problem, Insurers as Climate Enforcers & AI for Better Materials ft. Sonja Markovic

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Hello, hello internet friends.
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Um I've just got back after geez uh a month and a half of holidays in Sweden and Japan.
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Um so hence the delay in a couple of podcasts that haven't been posted, but uh they're gonna be rolling out over the next couple of weeks.
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So we've got four conversations that we've recorded.
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Um so yeah, I hope you enjoy the content.
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Um it's been really fun sort of stepping up our production quality and really trying to expand out our surface area of contact with new folks doing interesting things that's not just happening within our lab, um, but also exciting folks in and around the uh innovation space where we're trying to look at ways in which we can um solve complex problems and and challenges in a manner that is fit for purpose in an interconnected world.
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The first one of them off the ranks is going to be a conversation with Sonia from Evertat.
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So Evertat is a super exciting startup um that is essentially helping you find ways in which you can build using healthier and safer building materials, um, which are sustainable, circular, all this sort of stuff, which is really, really exciting.
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I've been a big fan for a while, so it's exciting to be able to sit down and have that conversation.
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Um, I hope you enjoy the conversation with Sonia.
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And as always, if there's anyone you think we should have a chat to or anything else of the likes, um let us know.
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Sonia.
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Welcome.
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Thank you for um making the time to come out and say hello to the Colabs crew and meet the team.
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It's um it's been a long time coming.
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I feel like I've seen you two dimensions on a screen.
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Um likewise, I'm sorry.
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Yeah, yeah.
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This is the first time in person, which is really exciting, and it's been nice to show you through the space and getting to bump into like, you know, Chloe off with the Pixies, Henry from Ropa, and obviously Twan as well.
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Um, yeah, curious what your thoughts are after that sort of like little meeting.
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Well, first of all, thank you for having me.
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Um I think we have been talking in the past plenty of times about collabs because um there's so many, I think, parallels in visions um and how we want to influence and move maybe sectors and even support actually that change as well.
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So thank you for for having me today.
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Um, and I was really impressed.
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Um, what I saw so far is probably um something that we always have been talking about, um, and of course we have um watched you guys um grow from step to step.
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And I think it's an incredible opportunity for for companies, for startups um to join and really get that support because we know how difficult it is out there to do it all by yourself, and even for established um companies, it's not easy, I think, to move into um developing a new product, and um because we know as we speak it takes nearly a village, I think, on support.
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And I think that's what I see a little bit in in collabs, and I think um there's one step even further.
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It needs to be the lines of the willingness, um, even beyond that, to to uh make that as a or to introduce it, introduce it to a market, um, and to find the people who then specify the products who really are using the products.
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And I'm talking probably through the lens of construction architecture and so on, but I know that you're supporting any other um it's a similar pattern and process, I think.
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Whether it's um you know, whether we're making biomaterials for the built environment, biotextiles, or even if it's a novel therapeutics or something like that that's trying to find a way to get to market, there is always an element of wayfaring and positioning and helping people figure out who's doing what, where are they, how do I make this happen.
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And I think that's to your point, that's the whole the vision behind what we're doing is like trying to take a systemic and an ecosystem-wide approach to addressing the multiple issues the innovation ecosystem is facing, and then how do we co-create and co-design interventions with members as they come through, figure out what's needed, and then we usually find out that there is a problem that five or six other people are also sharing, and then it's like, well, through collaboration, we can probably find a way to address that much better than in isolation.
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Um, so we call it collaborative advantage instead of competitive advantage.
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Um, and that that seemed to work really well for us so far.
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And um, yeah, I think you've you've been witnessing it the journey since when we first started with only a couple of different biomaterials like alt leather and stuff like that.
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And now, yeah, there's compound, there's ropa.
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Um, we're looking at spawning a whole bunch of other ones.
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We've just come off the back of a conversation um about like how we might partner with marine bioproducts CRC on ways to work with sea urchin waste and ways to work with kelp that's invasive.
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So, like looking at ways in which we can use these things that you know they're costing and could cost us, you know, billions of dollars in terms of environmental damage.
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I mean, how do you put a price on the environment?
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But you know, billions of dollars of damage if we can't find a way to remove them, like, and then to remove them, we have to be able to create a financial case.
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So it's like there's all of these interesting things that are happening that if we can bring people together into a place and we can harness that place to be able to support these initiatives to spawn off, that's kind of yeah, it's what we were always saying that we wanted to do, but now it's actually happening.
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And I think that for me is what's like the most exciting part about as we've shifted into being a little bit larger with I don't know, like maybe maybe 30, 40 plus companies.
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I haven't actually checked um how many we've got now.
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It's really allowed us to start playing more and start collaborating more, and that's um that's where I really think our I guess our strength will lie consistently is in how do we collectively coordinate?
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Because so many of the the issues we face with innovation are collective coordination failures, as you'd know.
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Um hey, look, we probably should start with a little bit of an intro, like who you are, where you've come from, how you're on this couch, and then um maybe from there um we can dive into some other questions.
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But um, yeah, that'll be great.
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I reckon before starting, the mic's already dropped a fair bit.
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So yep, that one there.
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So twist that one I think left loose, right, tight, yep, and then up, tighten.
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Sweet.
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Let's have a look and see how that sits.
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Great.
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Better?
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Much better.
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Yeah.
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It was just like slowly dipping on my oh no.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Um I can jump back to the like the tail end of that question, but essentially just like who you are as a person, um, whatever TAT is, and then um we can sort of see where it goes from there.
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Alright.
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Um, yeah, so Sonia, um I have been working properly in the intersections of digital product development um for more than two decades, um, but also had always a very strong interest in um the build environment.
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Um we have been working with um a startup 20 years, no more than 20 years back, um, in Germany, who then later became um one of the big um platforms across Europe for furniture um and fit art.
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So I think there was always um we we have been always working very interdisciplinary.
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That means we adapted very quickly to technologies and um but there was always that I think growing um idea to to utilize technology also for something that is meaningful.
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And I think that grew over time.
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There's a couple of tipping points.
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Um one was also our own experience.
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We have a house in Queensland and sitting really right in the pathway of some of these typical climate events.
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Um, so in when we moved here, um, we were told it doesn't really um had like a lot of exposure.
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Um, like cyclones um haven't gone through the area for at least 15 years or something.
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But since we moved then, it was pretty much every second year.
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And 2017 we had a really big one.
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Um we had some significant damage, um, not so much from the structural point, but there has been damage and we had to replace things.
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And in that moment, we thought, if we do have the money, why not investing in better choices, better decisions?
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And that um opened up the whole conversation around what is a better choice, what what criteria need to be applied?
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And we wanted to support local businesses if possible.
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We wanted to make sure that we support in um genuine, authentic, sustainable materials and so on.
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And it turned out to be an exercise that was incredibly tough to reach.
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Um, it was incredibly difficult.
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And not just on the say on on, I wouldn't even say it it wasn't only difficult to look into the market, but it was also very difficult to get that agency for the stakeholders involved.
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For example, in those kind of events, you do rely on the appointed builder to take some of these projects.
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Um and you need always to be a little bit um diplomatic because they usually have their relationships as well.
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But we uh intentionally wanted to go with some of the choices we made because we invested a lot of time to research these projects and products and also to investigate into transparency.
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And when we completed all our everything we had to fix and repair and everything, we thought why not starting sharing that not just experience as a use case, but the mechanisms that got us actually to making the decisions better.
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So, and that was to some degree, I think, um, an element where the idea of evitat um emerged stronger.
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Um we had some conversations prior to that as well, um, but I think that was one of the elements to dive deeper into what are these mechanisms, what are the criteria we would apply, and so on.
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And with COVID, um we maybe to to also mention we came from a very strong end-user perspective.
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And that created the idea of having a logbook for sustainable um homes and buildings so that every single decision gets captured and can be um presented to future buyers when a transaction happens on the property market.
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So that's the um I haven't heard the frame logbook, but is that the same as or similar to a materials passport?
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It's um so we are looking at material passports um as as a foundation data element to everything we have built now.
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Um and then that moves and transitions actually into a building passport.
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And I think the logbook was that initial concept which has now transitioned into a building passport that enables um every stakeholders to have agency, may it be on the mission side, the circularity side, or a combination of these co-benefits.
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Um often enough the the good material and product solutions in the market have a very rich co-benefits um set, and surfacing that early on um into project scopes, into conversations is a real um great mechanism to to build up that agency.
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And um and simply not to to slip into the risk of being subsidized um later on because no one understands the the materials and the way that they might play.
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So um coming back to the journey, um, we went then through the accelerator program, RNT accelerator program.
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What year did you go through?
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We went um right during COVID, and it was the only accelerator.
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I did we we did it during COVID as well.
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So I can we must have been like either side, like I think I have the feeling I need to look like it up because it's all displayed at RMIT.
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Yeah.
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Um either you've been prior us or after us.
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Um yeah, and um because I do have the feeling it was after.
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Um I think so as well.
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I feel like that that rings a bell, but um, it's just small world, right, going through it at the same time.
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So it's interesting to be able to watch both of our journeys through this.
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Um and I think you've been also involved in some of the workshops, the online workshops um run by small giants um that then created Region Melbourne.
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Region Melbourne and then Sustainable Builders Alliance as well.
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So I think there's been multiple interlinking weaving points of interest, as well as like you know, some of our members as well.
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Um, yeah, so I'm what I'm what I'm hearing and what I have found as well through looking at all of this sort of stuff is that there are so many barriers, whether it's like physical barriers, like infrastructure, social barriers, such as like the architecture, codes, or legal things, or what's the you know, fire resistance of this product, and then you know, there's also just cultural barriers, um, like well, we we we don't build with that here, or that's not that's not the way it's done, you know.
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Um there's so many different things, and even to your point of like, well, they have builders have their preferred providers or suppliers, and yeah, if you haven't worked with the material, oh it might take longer.
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So quote there's all of these things that are that are issues that you can face.
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Um but I mean that's that's only one scale of the problem, right?
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Like if I if we even pull back, right?
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Like we we don't even have like the material resources or capacity to build the way we're currently building for much longer.
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Like we're already running out of sand.
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Like concrete, we're not gonna be able to use it in the same way.
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Glass, like literally everything, like we're already hitting hard limits and it's not sustainable to keep building the way we are.
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Um, and it's kind of like a form of civilizational suicide in a way.
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And now you've been doing this for like, I don't know, five, five, six years now.
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Um, I'm super curious.
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Like, we build some of the biggest houses on on earth in one of the most climate uh most climate-sensitive places in the world.
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Um, I'm I'm really curious.
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Like, do you think that the people making decisions now are waking up to this and are and are aware of the fact that this is no longer viable to be able to do this long term?
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Or do you think that there is still an element of head beneath the sand trying to either ignore or wait until it's a problem and then address it?
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Um I'm really curious to to understand where you think the the ecosystem as a whole is at.
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It's a very good question.
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I think um in general I see there's a big conversation around um, and I would probably slice it up into there's the conversation around emissions, there's the conversation around circularity.
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And I think what we observed over the time is in general, there's a real strong appetite growing to uh um to get access, to understand that better, and also to to use it.
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The use of these material choices I think is even the strongest sometimes looking into the end user.
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Um that means even the decision makers um on single dwellings, the homeowners and so on.
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Um they sometimes take on that risk to say we absolutely believe change needs to happen, we invest in that.
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To do this on on larger scale project um involves a lot more rigor and um considerations around risk and especially in the commercial space.
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So, like when we fit this space out, when we fit out our one up in Everly as well, like you know, I was like, Can we use reclaimed timber here?
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Can we use mycelium panels here?
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Can we use this acoustic panel there?
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Um and you know, the issues of lead times when you're in Australia might be like six months to get a product over, or um, you know, no one's worked with it, how do we even use it?
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So, like I come up against so many issues or the cost, like ah, we can't do that, we have to do the the the most cost-effective thing for the budget that we've got um because there's so much volatility at the moment with supply chains.
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Um so I like even just experiencing that from someone who who knows all this sort of stuff, wants to build things in a certain way, but then can't because it's just like feels structurally impossible in some ways.
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That's probably also a little bit a very Australian um unique kind of um demand side.
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Um because in in Europe with a far larger market or in other territories as well, um, you might not face these same issues, these very particular issues, but um the cost to warehousing, for example, materials um is huge here.
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Um transport costs is huge.
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So availability of certain um solutions might not be readily available across all states, or at very different price points.
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Um and that dictates to some degree, of course, um the way how the products and the solutions end up really being specified.
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So um that is definitely um one of the many um issues I would say.
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Um the other one is how do we create an environment where we find a stronger willingness to specify, for example, under certain maybe project um opening up projects.
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Um I'm saying that intentionally with commercial spaces.
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When you're thinking, for example, in commercial sense, um how often fit outs get changed, how often modifications happen, um, then there should be a bit of an a door um really to open to allow maybe on on certain projects um a better access to to implement um some of these emerging products simply to to have something you know under commercial circumstances to showcase that um local manufacturing has um also a market in Australia instead of um leaving it actually.
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To the dynamics in the market.
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And I want to say that because what we forget sometimes is the dynamics in the market are not always organically grown.
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They often are incentivized by the systems we create.
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And that means a lot of the existing offers in the market are highly incentivized.
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And they only exist because of that.
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If we would have the same in incentivized mechanisms behind, you know, let's say biomaterials, we would have an amazing market.
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Yeah, we don't.
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Yeah.
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I mean that's also the I talk about this like quite often as like the dark matter of innovation, is that there are so many of these things behind the scenes that you don't see.
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And it's like the same with fossil fuel subsidies and all these sorts of things that mean that, well, any fossil fuel derived paint is going to be way cheaper than like a lime-based render or something like that.
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Um, on average, you know, obviously there's some people who probably figured it out and have it at price parity, but you're constantly going up aga up against folks with crazy amounts of subsidies and support, and also like probably 50 years of developing a product before it's even got to where it is now.
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Exactly.
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So it's it always feels a little bit unfair when you're like, well, it's not gonna be the same or as good as this, and it's like, well, yeah, because it's so long that these other ones have had, and so much support along the way.
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Yeah.
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And it does really feel like the oh, well, it's just not there yet, or it's not viable yet, and then let the market sort it out, it's never gonna end up sorting itself out.
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And to your point, it's like that's the I mean, this is where I feel like the role of government to step in is really important.
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I know like Mariana Mazakato has talked about mission economy and a couple of other ways in which governments can be a bit more entrepreneurial, but from what I can tell, I also believe overseas, like a way for a lot of these to get to market is governments will spec buildings have to be a certain standard, especially government buildings.
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And then it's like, well, great, well, let's find local suppliers to be able to build these buildings in this way.
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I'd be curious, like, have you seen any precedent for things like that that overseas that you think we could easily implement here to try and improve that?
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Um, I guess initial conditions for positive emergence of a biomaterials ecosystem in the built environment?
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Yes, we do see that, for example, in Europe.
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Um Europe has a very strong top-down kind of approach to everything.
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They come with policies first and then they try to figure out how what does it mean actually for the market.
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Um that creates on its own some problems often enough, but um what I do like is um in particular for the construction sector, um, they do have much more rigor around what they are implementing in terms of targets, for example.
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And as far as I know, they are also um rolling out certain targets, for example, around circularity that will enable the streams of materials.
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Um, and I've been talking with um various like designers, architects um across Europe around this.
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I know that France, for example, has um a good mechanism for reuse of um building products and materials, but also um they solved how do you get that, for example, working on a larger scale with um certifications and everything.
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So they don't leave it necessarily just to here is um maybe a slice of it, um, and then it dies off because no one knows how to adopt it.
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So I think the government has a very significant role to play in in all of this, and I what I could just encourage the government is really to think of being much more a leader in setting these targets within, for example, Australian scopes and considerations, and then leaving it really to the market to even work out how that can work, but incentivizing, for example, adoption from the bottom down, for example, for certain industries, to have a thriving um, let's say a bioregenerative material industry, we need um really the agricultural part to work much stronger, for example, with construction.
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There are brilliant crossovers.
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And while there's a really great appetite for it, I think um again it's hard to figure all of this out by yourself.
00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:27.119
Um and there has been um also capital flows in into the sector, but I think it's by far not enough.
00:27:27.359 --> 00:27:30.319
Yeah, and it needs, I think, also clarity.
00:27:30.480 --> 00:27:32.319
Where does government stand?
00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:38.240
Um, and I think it hasn't been very clear so far.
00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:44.960
Um, like this is not something you support for a couple of years and then you're dropping it.
00:27:45.359 --> 00:27:48.160
That's the issue, is the yeah, the need for patient capital.
00:27:48.319 --> 00:27:50.640
I'm glad that you brought like um ag into this.
00:27:50.799 --> 00:28:04.400
So um one of my friends, Mari Gray, who's the CEO at Sustainable Table, um, helped um collaborate with metabolic ventures back in the day to get their systemic venture studio off the ground focusing on food systems.
00:28:04.799 --> 00:28:15.039
Um but yeah, I don't I think you can't have a a thriving biomaterials economy without a thriving, you know, agricultural input for that to create.
00:28:15.119 --> 00:28:32.960
Like, yes, you can have um, you know, non-competitive feedstocks coming from the ocean, like the invasive pest species, but the reality is to do this consistently at scale, we're gonna need to be doing hemp farming, you know, we're gonna need to be exploring other forms of maybe local biomaterials that are maybe accessible.
00:28:33.039 --> 00:28:36.799
So, like combingi is another one that I've heard a lot of people working with.
00:28:37.119 --> 00:28:46.319
Um, we need to be able to cultivate that that like supply side and then working with them in unison.
00:28:46.640 --> 00:29:26.480
And to that point, it's like so hard to convince a farmer to swap out their regular crops for something else when they're already, you know, a lot of the time millions of dollars in debt just trying to keep the thing alive because it's like one of the most resource-intensive things ever, due to I guess the way in which the the farming ecosystem has been commercialized with seeds and with a with equipment and all this sort of stuff, and it's so far from what it was even 40 years ago that it's it's this weird perverse feedback loop where they're really just trying to keep their head above water, and then you throw in the mix, like, hey, do hemp, and they're like, I've never grown this before.
00:29:26.559 --> 00:29:34.240
Why like so it's I imagine there's an element of education on that front, but also like could we subsidize these farmers who are gonna prototype this?
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:45.440
Like, maybe there is some government support to subsidize that to then allow people to prototype to see if it if it would work out, and then maybe there is some way to get industry to support that as well.
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:48.000
It's like, how do you do like a blended finance approach?
00:29:48.319 --> 00:30:22.079
And that's sort of, I guess, like I was speaking to you off-camera about our desire to help co-create a like a venture studio, and then also look at finding ways in which we could do like a blended financing facility, ideally like a bioregional financing facility, but you know, the bioregion could be quite broad and encompass multiple different like food and bioproductive bowls throughout Victoria because there's so many, you know, like I think five of the top nine in Australia exist in Victoria, so there's so much potential locally, but it's like how do we finance and resource this?
00:30:22.319 --> 00:30:27.279
Because there are there are points at multiple places in the system that we need to address.
00:30:27.519 --> 00:30:31.920
I guess on that on that note of the system you know needs a support.
00:30:32.079 --> 00:30:45.759
You kind of uh describe yourself as a as a systems designer, um obviously also um an immigrant from Germany moving to Australia, um, and you know, entrepreneur third.
00:30:46.160 --> 00:30:56.559
Um is there anything that you think that outside of perspective has been like a benefit for you when coming here to look at how we do things?
00:30:57.119 --> 00:31:04.319
I think in general, if you if you so maybe to say I grew up in Germany also as an immigrant.
00:31:04.799 --> 00:31:14.000
So um I only became very relate um a German citizen and then we moved to Australia.
00:31:14.319 --> 00:31:23.119
So um I I do reflect often enough, um not just on the two sides.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:35.039
I know the pain points um, for example, immigrants face um within even government structures and and so on.
00:31:35.359 --> 00:31:49.039
But what I in a positive sense, what I refer often is that cultural and historical knowledge, um, which was readily shared when I grew up.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:57.440
And I refer that to um, for example, to to small stories.
00:31:57.599 --> 00:32:14.480
Um I had the opportunity to join um a larger group of um a lot of even architects or professionals from the architecture design um and sustainability um background.
00:32:14.640 --> 00:32:20.400
Um we did all together um like a week Lara Pinter.
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:21.759
Um beautiful.
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:23.599
And it was really, really nice.
00:32:23.759 --> 00:32:39.119
Um so and we were emerging in, you know, what actually the meaning of country really um like represents, um, reflected a little bit.
00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:53.839
And what I learned through through this um was um simply to to look really on what is that knowledge shared over time, and there's so much in in all of this.
00:32:54.000 --> 00:33:09.440
And in particular, when when you're looking into construction and buildings, um there used to be a lot of that knowledge transfer in in simple um relationships and simple interactions.
00:33:09.519 --> 00:33:22.160
And I have an old photograph of um my dad, and he was probably 15 or something, and um the the whole street was helping them build their house.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:32.079
So we see this as a concept, for example, emerging in um what's it called?
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:57.920
In um there's a there's a phrase, um, like for example, in um community and um also that collaborative kind of um building through sharing that knowledge, how to do it, and then also upskilling in in through that project, um, people actually on on opportunities.
00:33:58.400 --> 00:34:10.639
And um I think it teaches us um how we used to to actually be very sustainable.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:23.760
We uh we made much more um local and regional decisions on how to procure, for example, things, how to work with with local supply and so on.
00:34:23.920 --> 00:34:32.159
And a lot of these things used to be incredibly sustainable because they were locally sourced and and produced.
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:50.639
And then we replaced that um with global market solutions and everything, and a lot moved into the the concept that this is cheaper than what what you have.
00:34:50.880 --> 00:35:00.320
And again, it comes actually back that certain industries have been heavily subsidized and and also externalities are not accounted for.
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:00.880
Yes.
00:35:01.119 --> 00:35:10.400
Like so much of why it's cheaper is that you've shipped all the pollution and something elsewhere, and some other country has to deal with it who's not developed.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:14.400
I hate that phrasing, even of calling some country more or less developed.
00:35:14.480 --> 00:35:17.840
I don't think it's very developed to destroy your own environment.
00:35:18.079 --> 00:35:53.519
Um, but yeah, to that exact point, it's it's crazy how, like in living memory of some people, we were doing sustainable building, but then realistically, let's say it was probably the advent of the industrial revolution, let's say 250 years ago, something like that, where we really had the mechanization and reduction of um everything, you know, and then it really, really ramped up post-World War II when we had all of these like factories still able to produce things, but they didn't need to produce any um wartime equipment anymore.
00:35:53.599 --> 00:35:56.320
So then they're like, quickly, how do we retool and repurpose?
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:14.960
And like all of this change and development, you know, these things only are cheaper at scale, and it was only after we and then outsource it elsewhere to pay people way less than what they deserve to be able to then make it for us, and it's like now it's getting to the point in which that's just literally not possible anymore.
00:36:15.119 --> 00:36:25.760
But yeah, long term sustainability has to be connected to place, and if we can try and keep as many of the bits and atoms moving around within a local bioregion, the better.
00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:41.280
Um, I mean, when I was out on Corondirk Station um sometime last year helping them with some revegetation work, um, they're like, Oh, you know, the bricks from this building were were dug out just down the road by my ancestors, they were fired locally.
00:36:41.519 --> 00:36:48.239
Um, and just being able to have that provenance, I think, totally of something, you know, I was just like, that's that's crazy.
00:36:48.320 --> 00:37:00.159
Like, I mean, it's the same in Brunswick, like, you know, almost all of the bricks there came from where our first lab is, which is you know, now on the tip that that became afterwards, but it's not it's not that long.
00:37:00.239 --> 00:37:02.000
It's like one or two generations ago.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:15.920
We were building things hyper-local with resources that were there, and we're starting to see this begin to emerge again with like um passive house movement and like the the sustainable building biogenic homes.
00:37:16.400 --> 00:37:19.840
Um, is it beginning to be more mainstream now?
00:37:20.000 --> 00:37:22.480
Like, I guess I'd be curious to see how you're feeling.
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.199
Like, if I was ever going to build something, that's what draws me in.
00:37:25.280 --> 00:37:39.519
But you know, I've been interested in this for a while, so I don't know if that's just a bias or if you feel like are there more and more people coming to the website, really curious about how to build with less of a footprint and trying to incorporate local materials?
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:54.079
I think the appetite for um local materials for even handcrafted things is having a moment of revival to some degree, I think at least.
00:37:54.239 --> 00:38:08.000
Um the other part is um there is a growing awareness of um how to support um local mate things.
00:38:08.159 --> 00:38:17.440
Um that doesn't necessarily always means um it's in in the context of Australian mate.
00:38:17.920 --> 00:38:31.360
Um and as far as it could could be carried, um maybe you know, you order something that has at least a manufacturing plant here supporting local business.
00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:55.360
I think that idea has grown and had some also um maybe you know, through the labels of um even Australia made and in what we are looking at, um which is currently emerging, the remade Australia label has probably some trust around it or trust-building elements.
00:38:55.519 --> 00:39:38.480
Um however, um where I see um issues is what you tapped into is we are building the largest buildings and in particular for personal use, like for um the the broader community, like on average we are sitting at 240 square meters, and it's not really rare that way beyond that the the typical um custom build um are currently happening, you know, around 300, 350, 400 square meters.
00:39:38.880 --> 00:39:41.119
What do you think drives that culturally?
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:56.320
Um I guess it I think it's embedded into a little bit of a um marketing spin-off coming from the property market.
00:39:56.880 --> 00:40:10.800
Um I don't think there's real evidence that that size necessarily gets you more money when you are selling, for example, the property.
00:40:11.199 --> 00:40:11.760
Interesting.
00:40:12.079 --> 00:40:26.400
But a lot of the consultancy, like there's literally even people who are aiming to build for whatever reason, they consult um a real estate agent or someone from the reality.
00:40:26.480 --> 00:40:34.239
Who has like perverse incentives literally baked in from the onset where it's obviously they get more of a percentage for a bigger property because it sells for more.
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:35.119
So exactly.
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:36.880
It's yeah, that's so interesting.
00:40:37.280 --> 00:41:04.239
Why wouldn't you go to an experienced architect, you know, and have that conversation with that person um who has exactly that role to play, but instead they go somewhere else because it is so framed, um, like the properties are so framed around asset and resale value.
00:41:04.639 --> 00:41:10.960
It's this whole notion of like um property is the number one investment asset in Australia, right?
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:22.079
And I feel like that's why the housing prices are so crazy, why we have uh like just insane things constantly happening in this in this market is that people think that's the the best way to invest.
00:41:22.639 --> 00:41:31.679
Um it's just so fascinating to think that real estate agents are driving that decision rather than like what do I actually need as a person?
00:41:31.840 --> 00:41:39.119
Right, because like a bigger home, more cleaning, more upkeep, more like more resources long term, higher energy bills.
00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:42.320
Like, I just I've never I've never quite understood it.
00:41:42.400 --> 00:41:52.000
Like, I so from my point of view, like um my cousin builds passive houses, um, and I've always been fat and fascinated by the concept of like not a tiny home.
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:57.039
I think tiny home is maybe I love the concept, but I'm not tiny.
00:41:57.119 --> 00:42:02.079
But maybe like what is like a kind of tiny home look like, you know?
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:19.760
Just compare it even to European standards, you know, like the the average four-person family lives um s on average, somewhere between 120 square meter, 150 square meters, and it's absolutely um fine.
00:42:19.840 --> 00:42:34.800
Like I think that's because these buildings a lot of the time were built 100, 200, 300 years ago, so they've already got the proportions baked in, and then that has then shaped their perception of what is acceptable and normal or needed.
00:42:35.039 --> 00:42:44.719
Because I first they've they've come up against the space is a is an enabling constraint thing because Europeans have been building over there for thousands of years, right?
00:42:44.880 --> 00:42:48.400
Whereas here, um, you know, that's more of a recent thing.
00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.519
So I imagine that also shapes some of the perception.
00:42:51.599 --> 00:42:55.440
It's like well, it's difficult.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:05.519
I think um you see tendencies in Europe as well that the spaces they build are actually becoming bigger.
00:43:05.760 --> 00:43:19.760
So um, but what I find really strange is we we are talking about a crisis that has so many multifacets.
00:43:20.079 --> 00:43:26.400
Um and it's of if it affects construction as well.
00:43:26.639 --> 00:43:30.159
Construction costs have massively increased.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:57.360
So if that's um a barrier to to larger scale adoption because people don't have the money, um so why do we stick with that idea that only a large home will basically fulfill this um, you know, idea of having a good asset?
00:43:58.000 --> 00:43:59.760
This is just manufactured demand.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:15.920
Like if you think about I can't remember if it was Edward Bernays, like the father of PR or um someone else in the psychological literature, but the whole point was, you know, their whole thing was we need to turn America from like a a a needs-based society to a wants-based society.
00:44:16.079 --> 00:44:17.760
And I feel like this is all that as well.
00:44:17.920 --> 00:44:43.360
It's like like limbically hijacking people or like playing with our like evolutionary psychology where they know that you know you want to be perceived as providing or supporting, and so like like actively using that to make people feel like, well, if I don't do this, maybe I'm a bad person, or so that taps into um a theory I also put forward, um, and again, uh that's just my thoughts, you know.
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:55.440
Yeah but I was wondering how much of this is also using, for example, the migrant background, and we are not talking in the Australian lands necessarily about the European migrants here.
00:44:55.599 --> 00:45:15.039
We are talking about um large proportions of migrants, for example, coming from um Asia, India, all that, um, where, for example, the gathering of um family means this is not necessarily 20 people.
00:45:15.280 --> 00:45:19.280
We are talking here about 100, 200 or more people.
00:45:20.880 --> 00:45:32.559
And putting forward a sales pitch to them, that their ideal home is the 400 square meters because they can host these kinds of gatherings.
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:33.039
Yeah.
00:45:33.280 --> 00:45:48.000
And it taps into that, and I find it's um really critical because you see that in particular on the outskirts in in these um e-states, so-called, you know, the McMahon homes.
00:45:48.480 --> 00:46:13.280
The big homes, you know, and how often you come, even in Facebook groups like my electric efficient home and other groups, you know, across plans that have been submitted by people where you can see these come from most likely from these kinds of development projects, where they are asking, oh, you know, like this is what we have built.
00:46:13.519 --> 00:46:19.519
Um how can we make it more efficient because we are drowning in builds, literally.
00:46:19.599 --> 00:46:20.159
Yeah.
00:46:20.559 --> 00:46:28.079
And you are looking at the plan and you're thinking, oh my god, you know, there's like every single there's like two levels.
00:46:28.159 --> 00:46:32.559
Um all the bedrooms are upstairs, every bedroom has an ensuite.
00:46:32.800 --> 00:46:37.440
Um a massive um hallway with a huge staircase.
00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:40.159
So it's all representative, you know.
00:46:40.719 --> 00:46:43.199
But is it purposeful?
00:46:43.440 --> 00:46:44.159
Not at all.
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:49.199
Yeah, it it didn't even consider um orientation or whatsoever.
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:51.199
It's just big, yeah.
00:46:51.440 --> 00:46:58.639
Yeah, it's this this is the one thing about so I'm not gonna name names of of builders and places that do this.
00:46:58.800 --> 00:47:05.360
It's pretty self-evident when you go and look, but it is, you know, and and I guess in a way, like I'm not trying to blame anyone, right?
00:47:05.440 --> 00:47:09.519
They're just doing what they do based on their incentive structures, right?
00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:27.599
So it's like, oh well, we need to make more money, oh well, we need to, I need to sell more properties, or I need to do but it's like all of those things when they add up, they add up to a non-functioning system which actively like cannibalizes its own longevity as well as like undermining the livability of the place that we all share.
00:47:27.840 --> 00:47:48.719
And and I do wonder how long and how bad it has to get before we come to that realization, or if it really just has to like the wheels have to fall off, and then we almost have to learn how to build local using sustainable materials because it's actually the cheapest, most effective way possible, and we have to build smaller.
00:47:48.960 --> 00:48:04.320
Um, because it like we can't afford to build large unless we do, you know, off-grid or solar or passive house, or because it does feel like we're almost going to get to a point pretty soon where it's like you just do the passive house and then you don't have to pay the energy bills and it's gonna be cheaper.
00:48:04.559 --> 00:48:09.920
Like it really does feel like that inflection point will have to happen at some point.
00:48:10.000 --> 00:48:14.239
But yeah, whether it's demand-driven, supply-driven.
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:15.440
Yeah.
00:48:15.920 --> 00:48:26.320
Well, we we have conversations with um some of the the architects who are on on our platforms, um, architects designers, passive house experts.
00:48:26.639 --> 00:49:03.360
There's some brilliant um candidates who have dived deep into um the business models, um, the supply side, um, who are putting forward um concepts and solutions into the market that incorporate um both sides of things, um highly efficient, low maintenance um projects and and solutions, and then they do intentionally also look into that they don't um necessarily become huge.
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:12.400
So it's it's all worked through through a business model where they make up the numbers but in a decent size.
00:49:12.480 --> 00:49:21.440
So it's not necessarily that these buildings um have a hundred square meter per person or even more.
00:49:21.679 --> 00:49:28.079
Um so they are intentionally offered to the market as a different approach.
00:49:28.880 --> 00:49:30.000
Does it work?
00:49:30.159 --> 00:49:32.719
Um I'm hoping it works.
00:49:33.519 --> 00:49:37.280
It needs that support, I think.
00:49:37.360 --> 00:49:49.679
Um and it needs um that engagement also across the industry to to make that um a good solution and to to talk about that.
00:49:49.840 --> 00:50:10.400
Um because I don't think Australia can be in any terms sustainable um or even talk about you know low carbon emissions if every single building is now like on average a minimum of 100-150 square meter per person.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:15.440
Like this is insane, um literally, and I find this really weird, yeah.
00:50:15.760 --> 00:50:21.440
Um and and many of the projects are heading towards um that scale.
00:50:21.519 --> 00:50:26.000
Um it's it's I I can't make heads up to tell us.
00:50:26.159 --> 00:50:36.800
Like I I can you can understand, you can look at it and analyze and be like, okay, I can see how these patterns are playing out, but it's still like surely there's people who are like, yeah, maybe not.
00:50:36.880 --> 00:50:43.840
But I don't know, maybe it is, as I said, maybe we just have to wait for a crisis to hit before people actually change.
00:50:44.079 --> 00:51:03.280
Um, this is the the worldview piece is such a hard thing to to tinker with uh unless something really apocalyptical happens, and I mean that in the sense of like an unveiling, and you're like, oh, okay, we've been doing this from a perspective that really does not acknowledge biophysical limits.
00:51:03.440 --> 00:51:11.760
We've been doing this from a perspective of like literally greed and making money, or social signalling and status signaling.
00:51:12.079 --> 00:51:48.639
Um, and whether or not people like own up or acknowledge that or admit that, it's like uh I I wonder how much we just have to wait for the the break to happen, whether the market just has to collapse under its own weight, for then there to be the capacity to reorganize and hopefully create a more sustainable and resilient system, or whether there is the potential to bring a collection of these people together and be like, all right, guys, like we all know this has to happen, you know, or is it just gonna keep being a collective coordination failure, which is seems to be like the case a lot of the time.
00:51:49.119 --> 00:51:50.559
Yeah, it's a it's a good point.
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:58.559
Um I I do think um insurances are putting already pressure points into the market, um, to be honest.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:01.920
I I don't believe it's finance.
00:52:02.559 --> 00:52:06.159
Um there's too much stake in in the market.
00:52:06.719 --> 00:52:14.719
Um and cheap money um is to some degree what we see at the moment happening.
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:33.280
But insurance is if if you're thinking, you know, like um climate events are far away, they are happening, you know, occasionally here's uh like a fire or some somewhere, you know, um a cyclone or something.
00:52:33.840 --> 00:52:41.840
But insurance is distributive, like that risk is distributed on every single um home insurance in the end.
00:52:42.159 --> 00:52:55.760
That means also if a fire happens in like what we saw um more than 12 months ago in LA, that will have impact in the end on all the insurances we pay.
00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:58.960
It's already becoming uninsurable in so many places in Australia.
00:52:59.199 --> 00:52:59.519
Exactly.
00:52:59.840 --> 00:53:05.039
And you know, I I wonder then how that could impact it, you know.
00:53:05.119 --> 00:53:07.039
Like, are people just gonna stop building?
00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:11.920
Is it gonna mean that people try and adopt like more sustainable materials?
00:53:12.079 --> 00:53:14.880
How do how do we get these biomaterials?
00:53:15.360 --> 00:53:24.880
Um uh like how do you m inform insurers that if you build with hemp creep, it's gonna be better for like a fire resistance perspective?
00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:28.400
You know, do we just have to get the stats to show these people the the information?
00:53:28.480 --> 00:53:35.119
It's um I think insurances could play a really interesting role in all of this.
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:47.760
Um because so far they have built up their data, um like backtracing, you know, with models to project what what's ahead.
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:59.519
Um but there was always um traditionally maybe um a passive um player within that sector.
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:35.039
But I think that is flipping because we see um some concepts even in the US where insurances um intentionally put forward in the market and collaborate with builders, for example, to provide um insurable um kind of retrofit concepts to obtain then maybe a level um where you can enter insurance again, or you qualify for a subsidized insurance policy.
00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:42.800
Um what would be the benefits for the insurer of hey, we're gonna use more circular sustainable sources?
00:54:42.960 --> 00:54:50.719
Is that when they look at it because that's gonna reduce the likelihood of negative impacts due to emissions and climate change?
00:54:50.880 --> 00:54:54.719
Or like I'm so curious what the justification is for the insurer as to the case.
00:54:55.039 --> 00:54:56.559
I think there's two two ways.
00:54:56.719 --> 00:55:05.440
One is to like directly de-risking the property exposure to climate effects.
00:55:05.920 --> 00:55:23.199
Um that's highly dependent on the locality of it, um, but also the availability of um, for example, in an event when something happens, this is not just one building, like we've seen that at scale.
00:55:23.599 --> 00:55:38.320
Um and we're talking here about like vast areas um where um you would have hundreds, if not thousands, cases immediately popping up.
00:55:39.039 --> 00:55:56.800
The what happens in in that case is you need to mobilize builders who can serve that um market and who can take on these insurance cases, which is a struggle in itself.
00:55:57.199 --> 00:56:12.079
It's also a struggle if things don't go right, because then you create either a complete write-off or you need to pay again for to fix what wasn't fixed in the first place.
00:56:12.480 --> 00:56:20.719
So there's a direct cost, and insurances traditionally will most likely try to avoid that cost.
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:24.320
So think of mold, for example.
00:56:24.880 --> 00:56:43.440
It's like a build better to then reduce the likelihood of these costs or issues happening by specifying these materials which may be more fire resistant, more mold resistant, better thermal um thermal wrap to then reduce your likelihood of mildew or anything else.
00:56:43.519 --> 00:57:04.719
So it's like in a way you're saying all of these things reduce your capacity to have to claim on insurance, and that if that is enough of an incentive structure and the insurance people can then look at bringing that into like into play, then that creates some form of incentive structure for people to try and build better rather than just the cheapest.
00:57:04.880 --> 00:57:06.239
Or okay.
00:57:07.119 --> 00:57:08.639
I think yes, exactly.
00:57:08.800 --> 00:57:10.559
That that's one side of things.
00:57:10.719 --> 00:57:24.559
The other side of things is of course um insurance um has to to deliver on on their climate commitments um as a corporate um entity.
00:57:25.199 --> 00:57:31.440
So there could be these double effects, um, vice versa.
00:57:32.159 --> 00:57:41.599
And I'm not saying necessarily they need to have that as a set criteria, um, but it could be tied together.
00:57:41.760 --> 00:57:55.760
Um and I guess to some degree we we have seen um certain um developments in in that sector through um the Resilience Council and and so on.
00:57:56.079 --> 00:58:04.079
But again, um what does it mean actually at scale um for the different events that can happen?
00:58:04.239 --> 00:58:14.880
Um and it can be something in combination, even you know, um a cyclone will always um bring in floods and and so on, mold risk.
00:58:15.039 --> 00:58:22.079
Um like that's what we have seen across all the damages um in the area.
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:38.400
The mold actually created in in the aftermath more damage um to some of these properties exposed to rain and moisture over the period of time than fixing them in the first place.
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:54.400
So the cost to to fix them and not doing it right created then mold, and in some cases it was a major um either write-off or they had basically to rebuild the whole thing.
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:55.039
Yeah.
00:58:56.079 --> 00:59:06.800
So it's a it's an interesting um, and that requires probably also um yeah, financial models and and so on.
00:59:07.039 --> 00:59:38.400
But I think there's definitely something in it um to to consider um what role, for example, materials are playing and how resilience within materials um can help actually supporting these pathways um to to create resilience buildings, yeah, without necessarily um creating a bunker, you know, just because um a steel and concrete is so resilient, yeah.
00:59:40.000 --> 00:59:55.760
So I'm curious like what would what would you think what would you think the role of your AI platform could be for supporting stuff like this?
00:59:55.920 --> 01:00:15.840
Is it are you thinking is it is it primarily going to be for specification for like a consumer looking at specifying materials, or are you hoping that this database can be used to help inform decision making for um let's say investors who are maybe building properties or for the insurance industry or for the government?
01:00:16.079 --> 01:00:21.119
Or are you looking to try and build it in a way that it can support all of those?
01:00:21.840 --> 01:00:36.239
So it's um Evitat is built now um on really bringing the stakeholders within a project together and building up agency around material decisions and choices.
01:00:36.400 --> 01:00:52.639
Um that also means we have a built-in workspace that is currently rolling out as a full agentic version where they can run through their material schedules on upfront emissions, emission reporting.
01:00:52.800 --> 01:01:05.599
They can also analyze um, for example, other criteria on maybe um water or energy efficiency, um, healthy building standards.
01:01:05.760 --> 01:01:51.599
Um, like if you know, for example, and you're collaborating with a client that has mentioned, you know, allergies, asthma, and so on, you you can actually analyze that even across the material schedule and put forward some recommendations or at least putting forward um a weighting within that schedule to say, hey, we have intentionally um specified certain materials for let's say bedrooms, you know, because they, for example, manage moisture really well, they um are vapopermeable, they really create a very healthy environment for night sleeps.
01:01:51.760 --> 01:01:54.320
And yeah, so so things like this.
01:01:54.480 --> 01:02:36.400
I know, for example, in in Europe I grew up with a very strong intention on healthy environments, um, in particular for for kids' um environments, like um their kids' bedrooms, um, or wherever um like even there's a couple of companies um in in particular in Germany that are supporting have a very strong tradition in um healthy like even like play um equipment and and see the toys, there's been a massive revival of this sort of thing.
01:02:36.559 --> 01:02:37.440
Exactly, yeah.
01:02:37.760 --> 01:03:14.400
And um and I'm saying that of course we we had in the 80s um a strong push to everything plastic and and so on, but in Germany it was traditionally always seen, you know, the the wooden things, the natural things have quality in it because it doesn't expose actually children to to that early um exposure around chemicals, um pieces that might, you know, fall off and be picked up by by children and consumed in a way.
01:03:14.880 --> 01:03:16.880
There's also a cultural thing there, right?
01:03:16.960 --> 01:03:21.119
Like so I know Sweden is big on it as well, um Germany's big on it too.
01:03:21.360 --> 01:03:29.599
A lot of that um Nordic and I guess Germany and around there, like you have a culture of a forester, of someone who manages their land.
01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:29.840
Yes.
01:03:30.159 --> 01:03:33.920
There is way more people who are actively involved in woodworking.
01:03:34.400 --> 01:03:40.159
You know, it's like most grandparents had a woodworking shed and they would make butter knives or they would make the kids' toys.
01:03:40.239 --> 01:03:59.360
So it also feels like culturally there is a there feels like that's still quite alive, and so probably that's another part of why that was kept or maintained or sustained, because yeah, it's just not not something you see as much here um as over in Europe, but it does feel like it is coming back a lot more.
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:15.280
There's so many new toy shops popping up that it's all wooden things, and I think you know we've had that pendulum swing of plastic fantastic to oh no, this is like um fundamentally toxic, and we probably shouldn't be putting in kids' toys that they're putting in their mouths.
01:04:15.440 --> 01:04:18.400
Um, so it does feel like it's coming back, and it is the same with the health.
01:04:18.960 --> 01:04:19.360
Absolutely.
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:23.519
I I think there's um again a growing awareness.
01:04:23.679 --> 01:04:45.119
Um, I don't want necessarily to pull it too um too strongly to only one side of things because um we have also international standards, you know, we don't need to catastrophize everything, every little um bit and like benchmark or something.
01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:51.760
Um often enough, these things are thrown around with no knowledge what is actually the benchmark.
01:04:51.920 --> 01:05:05.840
Like um, and this is for me, you know, where I grew up with a um fairly critical mindset um with parents constantly questioning things.
01:05:06.000 --> 01:05:22.800
Um, but that also created um a solid approach, you know, when I hear, for example, my marketing jargon, um, I can differentiate, you know, how far does it go and what questions are still unanswered.
01:05:23.199 --> 01:05:31.519
Um so for example, if someone says, oh, healthy material, you know, for me that immediately triggers like what does it mean?
01:05:32.239 --> 01:05:33.119
How do you define health?
01:05:33.440 --> 01:05:34.480
How do you define it?
01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:39.440
You know, what what do you measure that against, for example, yeah?
01:05:39.920 --> 01:05:56.960
And um and I don't necessarily like I'm saying that intentionally, I don't want to see um the material space all of a sudden to become, you know, this scientific only scientific thing, um similar to to building science.
01:05:57.119 --> 01:05:59.199
There's also a material science.
01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:04.480
And Both combined can create incredible buildings.
01:06:04.639 --> 01:06:16.639
And I think when they combine in we see and have the evidence of these buildings that last not just decades, they they last for centuries.
01:06:16.800 --> 01:06:23.119
Um which is quite impressive and they can be often enough very simple.
01:06:24.079 --> 01:06:41.280
But um I do want also to say, like with materials, for example, I would really like to that people can make decisions um on a set of maybe um questions they have.
01:06:41.519 --> 01:07:02.079
And what we introduce to to Evitat is that agentic part that you can um talk and and question these materials at any point, um even evening time when you're thinking, Hang, hang on, you know, like if if I share this um schedule with my client, what would they maybe um come back with?
01:07:02.239 --> 01:07:07.440
And why not letting them ask these questions straight away?
01:07:07.599 --> 01:07:15.679
Yeah, and having a substantial way actually on evidence behind it, and it can answer most of these questions.
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:21.519
And where it doesn't have evidence, it will basically return like I don't have that.
01:07:21.679 --> 01:07:33.440
Um so you either talk to the manufacturer directly and ask if if that's actually available or not, or the the architect can do this on on their behalf.
01:07:33.760 --> 01:07:49.519
But what I mean by that is um I do think we need to start understanding a little bit better and um and simply valuing some of these um materials differently.
01:07:49.679 --> 01:07:58.239
Like it's not just about the one single indicator of a price point that should drive the decision.
01:07:58.400 --> 01:08:18.319
Yeah, we should really be able to look at it from various lenses, and if for whatever reason you know material is not available and you need to subsidize it, um be aware you know what that original decision was supporting.
01:08:18.479 --> 01:08:28.000
Like it might have supported um a material decision that would last centuries, yeah, um, with no maintenance.
01:08:28.319 --> 01:08:34.319
It would maybe have supported fire resistance and and other resist.
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:45.520
A lot of these materials come with incredible abilities to um manage, for example, moisture to mitigate mold buildup.
01:08:45.680 --> 01:08:51.119
Yeah, it's one of the the biggest problems um buildings have in Australia.
01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:52.960
Okay, cool.
01:08:53.119 --> 01:09:02.560
So if what I'm hearing correctly is the introduction of the agentic AI element essentially helps across a like a multiple different ways, right?
01:09:02.640 --> 01:09:14.079
So, first of all, it acts as like an aggregator of data and information, but then it also helps with the demystifying, de-risking, helping people understand why something was specified.
01:09:14.159 --> 01:09:25.600
So, and then it's like, well, if something does change, it's like, okay, well, if you change that, you know, this was originally specified for this because that might help someone um breathe easier in their bedroom.
01:09:25.760 --> 01:09:38.239
So you essentially have created this to remove that collective coordination failure or issue that I was mentioning, where you have like architect specifies something because someone asked for it, then the builder has a supplier that they want to use.
01:09:38.560 --> 01:09:47.359
I've literally gone through this firsthand with building Colab, so I can I can see I can see how that could be like an immensely valuable thing to do.
01:09:48.000 --> 01:09:58.000
One thing that I'm really curious about like, do you have to feed that data into the AI in a way in which it's legible for it to be able to understand?
01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:10.079
Like, are there are there is there a standardization that you go through to be able to ensure that it's clean, the data's neat, it's understandable, it's legible, or can you kind of feed anything into this and it can figure it all out along the way?
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:12.000
A good question.
01:10:12.239 --> 01:10:29.600
Um no, we we do structure a fair bit, and um we have an genetic data infrastructure in the back um that enables LMMs to retrieve that um in in a good sense.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:39.520
Um we have intentionally worked out um a couple of layers around this, also to keep it economically.
01:10:39.600 --> 01:10:46.800
Um and that said is we are not rolling it out with a massive price point.
01:10:47.039 --> 01:11:07.439
Um we wanted to make it always accessible for even a small practice to have that access point, and then simply based on the project scope to decide do I need maybe you know this reporting feature or another one to make that decision.
01:11:07.760 --> 01:11:20.640
So the data infrastructure behind is structuring um when we onboard the the material specifications or specifics um specs and and so on.
01:11:20.960 --> 01:11:31.680
We also look into um a quick evaluation on sustainability claims and then adding the evidence behind it.
01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:44.720
So, but this is exactly where it's not stopping, like on retrieval and the way how we present that, it um feels very humanized again.
01:11:45.199 --> 01:11:53.119
And it's not a blank table of data points where you as an architect need necessarily to make sense of it.
01:11:53.279 --> 01:11:54.800
How do you read that?
01:11:55.039 --> 01:12:01.119
What are, for example, the benchmarks against um what I'm looking at, even yeah.
01:12:01.359 --> 01:12:04.560
So you can ask these questions directly.
01:12:04.800 --> 01:12:22.880
Um, and we have been partnering also with um some of the um leading certifiers in in that sector or industry organizations who also supply um research data and so on, and all of that gets added.
01:12:23.039 --> 01:12:26.079
We we have we call it training hub.
01:12:26.560 --> 01:12:46.720
Um it's accessible to us as super admins, where we add and assign that even to specific categories, specific products or ranges, and then it becomes a very sophisticated way of looking and being able actually to answer some of these questions.
01:12:48.399 --> 01:12:49.680
Okay, that makes sense.
01:12:49.920 --> 01:12:50.800
That makes sense.
01:12:51.439 --> 01:12:56.239
Um yeah, it's uh it's wild right.
01:12:58.640 --> 01:13:04.399
There's so much positive and negative talk around the use of AI and how it can be incorporated.
01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:13.840
And like I've got um like friends who are AI tech ethicists who are like, you know, it's this is literally atrophying our brains.
01:13:14.159 --> 01:13:27.680
It's not like great in that sense, it's like actively negative, but for things like this, you know, to me it feels like a really viable and valid use case to be able to help with that collective coordination failure.
01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:41.119
So I'm so curious from your perspective about like the ethics of the AI integration, like because people might say, Oh, well, you're just trying to replace the job of an architect or a I don't know, I'm I'm insert job role here, right?
01:13:41.279 --> 01:13:47.760
So I'm curious how you feel about that whole integration of AI, how you relate to it.
01:13:48.000 --> 01:13:57.600
Um, I guess it is one of those things that you know there's always going to be a triage with everything you do, everything's gonna have a uh like an energetic footprint, a material footprint.
01:13:57.760 --> 01:14:17.359
Um, but it must be something where you've kind of looked at it and you've gone, I think the benefits of using this outweigh the costs when you look at like the longevity of the buildings, the costs that can be saved, and also the capacity that it helps people to relate to one another to be able to ensure that we can deliver on um buildings that are actually going to be fit for purpose.
01:14:17.760 --> 01:14:18.399
Yeah.
01:14:18.880 --> 01:14:24.079
Um that's a great question.
01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:28.399
So um let me approach it through two angles.
01:14:28.960 --> 01:14:54.720
Um one is I think there's a bit of um we we see there's either an open engagement with um AI also across that industry, or there's a part, you know, on a stairway, you know, sustainability and I don't need that.
01:14:54.960 --> 01:15:19.439
Um so first of all, in our case, we uh using AI to remove some of that complexity, and I think that's really critical um for sustainability, for even regeneration in that sector, to be able actually to survive in in the bigger scale.
01:15:19.680 --> 01:15:26.560
I think it's really under threat um of adoption, of being understood.
01:15:26.800 --> 01:15:50.159
Um and it could be also a way to maybe bring together knowledge on harmonization of that knowledge to some degree, at least to bring the the stakeholder um onto the same level and the same plate when they have these conversations.
01:15:50.319 --> 01:15:58.560
Because I think there's a bit of you know, like we we need to look into how these decisions are made here in Australia.
01:15:58.800 --> 01:16:14.319
A lot of that um like I wouldn't necessarily see um the agency always coming from the designer um side of things where it should happen.
01:16:15.119 --> 01:16:17.600
It should happen early on.
01:16:18.000 --> 01:16:25.359
If it happens too late, it it will fall automatically under this is very expensive.
01:16:25.840 --> 01:16:31.039
And if we change something, it has like it's near impossible.
01:16:31.279 --> 01:16:31.680
Yeah.
01:16:32.159 --> 01:16:58.000
So having an access way to evaluate early on, um based on on the project requirements is I think the way actually to to influence change and to make maybe based on the project scope requirements um some profound decisions, you know, what what is a better choice or not.
01:16:58.960 --> 01:16:59.600
Yeah, that makes sense.
01:17:00.000 --> 01:17:15.680
And having that discussion or ability to discuss this um on on a shared knowledge level, but also to to be able actually to understand what do I measure that against.
01:17:15.840 --> 01:17:34.239
Like and I want to point that out because um I don't think we we should always look at simplifying it to the point where it's simply just exchangeable um and it becomes meaningless then.
01:17:34.720 --> 01:17:50.720
Um but I also want to to say that I come across um these conversations from a knowledge point that is fairly thin as well.
01:17:50.880 --> 01:18:04.560
Um in particular when it comes to materials, there's assumptions, there's a lot of assumptions how to uh think about materials and and so on, but there's a huge gap in actually truly understanding it.
01:18:04.640 --> 01:18:09.760
And it the the reason for this is it's heavily complex.
01:18:10.159 --> 01:18:16.399
Working through that on one for one particular material is a huge effort.
01:18:16.640 --> 01:18:19.439
And I totally get the the business point.
01:18:19.760 --> 01:18:30.479
I can't, you know, afford as a smaller studio or even as a large studio, you know, to put a team, you know, to do all that research for months in some cases.
01:18:30.880 --> 01:18:31.119
Right.
01:18:31.199 --> 01:18:46.800
And so that's where the justification for the AI tool comes in is it can do all of this scoping work initially and give you like it might go get you from here to here, and then there might be the need to utilize human, like a human to be go, okay, cool, and we might be able to apply that in this.
01:18:47.359 --> 01:18:47.680
Exactly.
01:18:47.760 --> 01:18:55.520
We are not going to say, hey, or the AI won't say, hey, I recommend you this particular material.
01:18:55.760 --> 01:18:56.239
Yeah.
01:18:56.640 --> 01:19:00.319
So this is still a decision a human needs to make.
01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:01.119
Yeah.
01:19:01.439 --> 01:19:09.199
Um, and I think there's value in all of this because uh nothing is 100% always perfect.
01:19:09.279 --> 01:19:17.920
It's not about um, and this is where I see, for example, sometimes you know the ambitions is like, oh, we need to make that perfect decision.
01:19:18.000 --> 01:19:19.279
It's not about that.
01:19:19.520 --> 01:19:25.840
Um it's at the moment when it's really critical to make um a good decision.
01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:28.000
Uh it's not the perfect decision.
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.399
Like we we can't make that.
01:19:31.039 --> 01:19:32.800
There's no such thing as perfect decisions.
01:19:33.119 --> 01:19:33.359
Yeah.
01:19:34.319 --> 01:19:42.239
And um and then um there's always different lenses to to evaluate that.
01:19:42.479 --> 01:20:11.760
If we make it easier to look through these various lenses, what does it mean, for example, for us um to consider um, you know, like would we subsidize a material um easily just because of the price point, or are there other benefits actually out of that material that create a weight in the decision making?
01:20:12.239 --> 01:20:14.479
Why not looking at that?
01:20:14.800 --> 01:20:22.560
But if that pathway to look at it is so complex that it's near impossible, no one will do this, yeah.
01:20:22.800 --> 01:20:36.079
So the whole effort for a manufacturer, you know, to talk about all of this, you know, it's it's resistant against this and that, and you can use it and it lasts 150 years or so, whatever.
01:20:36.159 --> 01:20:44.560
Yeah, all of this all of a sudden falls short if it's not surfaced at the right moment of decision making.
01:20:45.600 --> 01:21:07.920
And and I think um so there's a couple of hypotheses in in our concept when when designers are able to collaborate with other decision makers, might be a client, might be someone else involved, and they can surface that early on, they can build up a different agency.
01:21:09.760 --> 01:21:10.720
That makes sense.
01:21:10.960 --> 01:21:13.199
No, I can see I can see the value in that.
01:21:13.279 --> 01:21:36.159
And to that point, it's like um if you can f create that frame up front early on, then that the overton window for what's possible is is wider or or more, maybe there's more potential once you can speak to these things rather than if you've already locked things in to your point it's gonna cost more to change it, or someone's already got an uh a perceived idea or notion around what they're gonna build.
01:21:36.479 --> 01:21:38.159
So that that checks out.
01:21:38.399 --> 01:21:57.520
Um I'm curious, like you know, we've used the term like measurement, and um I guess that then makes me think of like impact, and then like how do you position what you're doing to investors to be able to try and raise funds, and how do you speak to like impact that you're having?
01:21:57.680 --> 01:22:02.319
And you know, you've said how do I measure this, how do we prove this, how what how do we know what's sustainable?
01:22:02.560 --> 01:22:08.479
Well, like, what does impact look like for you, and how do you want to look at measuring that?
01:22:10.000 --> 01:22:11.199
It's a good point.
01:22:11.359 --> 01:22:37.279
Um, so first of all, because we are um moving into that agentic phase, um, and I want to reference um one of our um um like basically we we we are uh consulted um by by the um advisors we have.
01:22:37.680 --> 01:22:52.960
And there was one um um reframing um and the person was saying, you know, we we used to to come actually from the analog um space into digital, but now we are moving from digital into agentic.
01:22:53.600 --> 01:23:01.920
And the agentic space is still very undefined, um, but it opens up a lot of of these doors.
01:23:02.079 --> 01:23:07.600
And we are aware and we are talking about what footprint it creates.
01:23:07.920 --> 01:23:18.560
So we want to be transparent on that side, so we are looking not just into what cost it creates, but what compute it creates as well.
01:23:19.039 --> 01:23:50.479
And our ambitions for the last um would say 10 months was to dive deep into how can we create um a data structure that is um that doesn't actually cost too much compute and um still actually delivers on on the quality of of retrievable information in a very humanized way so that AI becomes a purposeful tool.
01:23:51.520 --> 01:23:58.640
I can see, and as well because it's such a bounded context, like I don't know, let's say 2,000 materials, I think, in the database at the moment.
01:23:58.960 --> 01:24:08.079
Yeah, we have we have like two and a half thousand are um visible and um we are reaching three and a half in the back end.
01:24:08.239 --> 01:24:11.199
Um not all of it is currently published.
01:24:11.840 --> 01:24:23.520
Yeah, and I can imagine there's some ways in which you can communicate with the AI to reduce its need to you know search the whole thing, and there's certain architectures that you can do to make it way more energy efficient.
01:24:23.680 --> 01:24:44.399
I've been I have been tracking like there's people who are also exploring setting up like instead of one big thing, you have multiple little agents who oversee different parts, and each of them has their lane, and it's like the words that you might use might trigger that lane, which can then ensure that okay, we only need to use this resource and this then this person to draw on this, and that can bring the costs down.
01:24:44.479 --> 01:24:48.640
But yeah, in your context, it's such a like you're working with known knowns, right?
01:24:48.720 --> 01:25:02.159
So I can imagine it could be much much easier to handle all of that, and I think this is the real place to me, I feel like where AI can shine is is where where it is a bounded context for it to play within.
01:25:02.319 --> 01:25:16.720
Um and then I think it's the you know the human human side coming in with the unbounded or the the nuance or the complexity that you know these agents may cultivate over the next couple of years, but it's still a little bit lackluster, let's say.
01:25:16.800 --> 01:25:19.840
But in this sort of context, that to me that makes so much sense.
01:25:20.079 --> 01:25:23.359
Um and maybe to yeah, exactly.
01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:30.319
I think um that's absolutely the the pathway we we are um structuring everything.
01:25:30.479 --> 01:25:55.359
So we think of um there's trigger points um for for certain tasks, and um in the back there's uh like a whole set of requirements um where certain even parts of it get um analyzed, get retrieved, um, how that gets even calculated and so on.
01:25:55.520 --> 01:26:03.600
And not everything runs through AI, but how it gets orchestrated and presented, that's definitely then AI.
01:26:03.840 --> 01:26:13.520
The other part is also to look um even in the technicality of warehousing and and so on.
01:26:13.680 --> 01:26:31.760
Um, we are investigating, for example, um some emerging solutions across Europe where um intentionally the the warehouses are set up to power entire little towns and villages.
01:26:32.079 --> 01:26:38.720
And and that's currently happening in conversations with councils as well and and so on.
01:26:38.800 --> 01:26:42.640
There's a couple of pilot projects um in Germany.
01:26:42.800 --> 01:27:28.399
There's also something happening in Switzerland, um, which is of in my opinion a really um great approach and we should put that on every single um my opinion on every single um warehouse solution um for like on on AI, for example, needs to to have certain criteria to utilize, for example, the generated um offsite energy to bring that back um to purposeful use instead of just creating that waste um in terms of energy um but also water usage and and so on.
01:27:28.479 --> 01:27:35.600
I think there's a huge opportunity also for entrepreneurs to to find better um systemic solutions.
01:27:35.760 --> 01:27:36.000
Yeah.
01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:46.479
Yeah, I think that's the whole like um uh if you can treat a data center like an ecosystem, you know, and how to all of the how do you close the loops on all of the the resources.
01:27:46.560 --> 01:27:53.920
And there's also people who are figuring out ways to do compute which alleviate the need for the data centers in the way that they're kind of currently going up.
01:27:54.079 --> 01:27:58.560
And I do I'm very curious about like the distributed approach, you know, to that point.
01:27:58.640 --> 01:28:05.840
It's like what if Um, you know, all new warehouses or business parks had an integrated room to be able to do this.
01:28:05.920 --> 01:28:08.479
Sort of like are you getting solar popping up all over the place?
01:28:08.640 --> 01:28:15.439
Could we do something similar to that, which can keep it at a at a scale that it's not offensive?
01:28:15.520 --> 01:28:26.159
Um because yeah, there's obviously so much um and and it's also maybe just when we when we are looking at data centers, I think there's um it's the current view.
01:28:27.119 --> 01:28:39.600
But I'm assuming that the race around AI, and we do see these tendencies already happening, is also on how to make it more efficient.
01:28:39.840 --> 01:28:43.920
So it's not necessarily what we only see from one side.
01:28:44.079 --> 01:28:51.600
There's a lot actually happening also in China, for example, on making them in a fraction of the computer.
01:28:52.079 --> 01:28:53.840
It has to, it has to end up that way.
01:28:54.159 --> 01:28:58.079
I also do I uh I always worry though with this.
01:28:58.159 --> 01:29:07.680
It's like um I don't know if you've come across Jevon's paradox, but it's this concept that you know the more efficiencies we we eke out, then the more we use a thing, you know, energetically speaking.
01:29:07.760 --> 01:29:14.479
So like we still use more coal around the world than ever before, even though we've got all of our renewables, and I and I do worry that it's the same thing with AI.
01:29:14.560 --> 01:29:18.159
It's like, oh, it just means that it'll we'll just use more of it and use more energy.
01:29:18.319 --> 01:29:24.000
So there is there are some real issues that I feel like doesn't matter what we do, it's gonna be a struggle to address.
01:29:24.079 --> 01:29:28.640
But I think that then it's like it's the same with like using lithium in batteries.
01:29:28.800 --> 01:29:32.079
It's like better to use that for an iPad or a phone than a car.
01:29:32.239 --> 01:29:34.399
It's like, you know, maybe it's the same with AI.
01:29:34.479 --> 01:29:37.840
It's like, well, in this context, this is a really beneficial outcome.
01:29:38.000 --> 01:29:47.680
So, you know, we look at integrating that and we're we're aware of the use cases where it makes sense to use these resources in an effective and efficient way.
01:29:48.159 --> 01:30:08.640
Um, so it's good to hear that you're like considering that and trying to think about that sort of stuff long term, because that's obviously such a big thing with anyone who's working with agentic AI, is the is the energy and cost associated, which we can assume will come down, but um it's still like a bit of an elephant in the room if it's not spoken about or addressed.
01:30:08.800 --> 01:30:20.560
Um absolutely, and I think it should be um at the moment, it seems to be uh literally like the elephant in the room, you know, we see data centers popping up here and there and there.
01:30:20.720 --> 01:30:27.680
And then they create um a lot of also fractions within, you know, communities and everything.
01:30:28.560 --> 01:30:55.279
But um yeah, I think we need to talk about it to actually also introduce innovations in the same way we are looking at materials for construction, you know, and we we know that some of these uh resources are pretty much much at the the yeah at the edge of being inaccessible in future.
01:30:55.520 --> 01:31:00.640
So we need to rethink the the systems to find better solutions.
01:31:00.880 --> 01:31:08.960
And I think on on the data center side it's the same story um with a lot of things.
01:31:09.279 --> 01:31:18.640
And looking at Australia, while we are building so big, you know, we are absolute pioneers in um solar energy.
01:31:18.720 --> 01:31:25.600
Um and that's not necessarily coming from um the commercial side and installs.
01:31:25.680 --> 01:31:30.479
Um it is coming through homeowners who make that decision.
01:31:30.560 --> 01:31:31.119
Yeah.
01:31:31.439 --> 01:31:46.319
So I want, you know, I find this really powerful um in the way to to look at it, um, where people's power also um exists and and what it can create.
01:31:46.640 --> 01:31:52.000
It's one of the probably best explored um markets.
01:31:52.159 --> 01:31:59.600
Um, but that agency has been building up over time because people see so much value in in all of this.
01:31:59.680 --> 01:32:00.319
Yeah.
01:32:00.720 --> 01:32:21.920
So I'm hoping that can be a seed for for many other, you know, kind of um ways to to think, you know, how can we make better decisions around how how we utilize that and um how we move forward with with better choices?
01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:22.479
Yeah.
01:32:23.439 --> 01:32:27.279
And I guess on that note, um maybe like a final question.
01:32:27.840 --> 01:32:35.439
Um of those seeds, let's say, like, are there any that when you look at them they give you hope for the future?
01:32:37.840 --> 01:32:50.560
Um yes, I I think I'm in general um a person who looks more on the positives and the hopeful sides of things and the negatives.
01:32:50.720 --> 01:33:32.640
Um where I want to see um much stronger, even um collaboration and support enablement is in the general, and this is where also collabs I think plays such a significant role to support actually um that early emerging of innovation because I think it's really critical, and it needs every single moment of support because um it's literally going against really established everything.
01:33:32.960 --> 01:34:03.199
Everything everything exactly, so it's incredibly hard, and um having these conversations with manufacturers on the ground, but also with suppliers who believe in the products they are backing, and even if if that means they have to import them, all of them have their dreams that they can actually turn that maybe into homegrown manufacturing one day.
01:34:03.600 --> 01:34:18.800
But it always comes back to the market needs to adapt to it, the market needs to specify it, to uh to say these products and and to to adapt.
01:34:19.680 --> 01:34:28.000
Um and if if we can't get to to that first step, um I think it will it will it will be incredibly hard.
01:34:28.079 --> 01:34:28.640
Yeah.
01:34:28.960 --> 01:34:44.079
So I find a lot of purpose in um being one of these supporting elements um and actually creating a solution into the market that is readily accessible to many.
01:34:44.880 --> 01:35:22.239
So I want even the smallest studio to be able to run through an emission assessment and also to point out what is maybe particularly uh great for families, you know, what is a great choice for my families, or if it's a commercial project, really to be uh to have that rigor, you know, early on to run assessments through and to cut out that enormous research waste as well, and really to think how can we make that project really outstanding?
01:35:22.479 --> 01:35:23.119
Yeah.
01:35:23.439 --> 01:35:30.239
Um, I think we we waste a lot of time and energy on a lot of noise, often enough.
01:35:30.640 --> 01:35:42.560
Um, and that hopefully brings back um the designers and the architects to not necessarily the drawing board, but to the designs they create.
01:35:42.800 --> 01:35:53.119
So we are not um or rolling out anything around the design itself, but we want to support the decision makings around it.
01:35:53.600 --> 01:35:56.079
Yeah, I see it more of as enabling constraint.
01:35:56.159 --> 01:35:56.319
Yeah.
01:35:56.479 --> 01:36:02.880
So it's like, you know, working with this material palette of the future, which is sustainable, better for people on the planet.
01:36:03.039 --> 01:36:08.239
How might you then design or build, you know, what you perceive to be the perfect home?
01:36:08.399 --> 01:36:12.720
Um, so coming at it from that side, I think, is um foundational.
01:36:13.840 --> 01:36:14.000
Yeah.
01:36:14.880 --> 01:36:25.279
Well, and this is why I, you know, see all of us, like even Collabs, um us and many other players.
01:36:25.520 --> 01:36:33.439
I think the the strength is really if if we bond together and have that uh shared voice um out there as well.
01:36:33.840 --> 01:36:37.920
Yeah, we always say it's the collaborative advantage, not a competitive advantage.
01:36:38.159 --> 01:36:38.560
Exactly.
01:36:38.720 --> 01:36:46.239
And I think that beautifully said it's so nascent, all of these ecosystems, that only through supporting and helping each other can we make any of this work.
01:36:46.319 --> 01:36:48.239
And the rising tide lifts all both.
01:36:48.399 --> 01:36:53.039
So um yeah, thank you for coming on the podcast and for sitting down.
01:36:53.119 --> 01:36:57.600
Um apologies about the sun constantly tracking you wherever you've gone.
01:36:57.920 --> 01:37:05.279
Um, but I think we've we've we've managed to to make it work despite multiple variables um attempting to get in the way.
01:37:05.359 --> 01:37:06.319
So absolutely.
01:37:06.479 --> 01:37:07.520
No, thank you, Sam.
01:37:07.840 --> 01:37:09.359
Thank you for the invite.
01:37:09.600 --> 01:37:14.159
Um really glad that we made it work um after such a long time.
01:37:14.479 --> 01:37:15.119
Yeah, yeah.
01:37:15.359 --> 01:37:33.680
Um and yeah, I'm I'm very much looking forward um to see how we can strengthen that um in the market and be you know collaborative support to all the merging and also to to those ones who want to pioneer that segment.
01:37:34.079 --> 01:37:42.640
Yeah, I think there's a lot of scope for for working together on projects, so we'll we'll definitely keep bouncing those ideas off each other and hopefully something can emerge sooner rather than later.
01:37:42.960 --> 01:37:43.439
Absolutely.
01:37:43.600 --> 01:37:43.920
Thank you.
01:37:44.159 --> 01:37:45.439
Awesome, thank you.
01:37:46.000 --> 01:37:46.800
Cool.
01:37:47.680 --> 01:37:51.199
Thanks so much for tuning in to another episode.
01:37:51.279 --> 01:37:52.640
I hope you enjoyed it.
01:37:52.800 --> 01:37:59.680
Um it was a really fun conversation despite being uh completely enshrined in sun for half of it.
01:37:59.920 --> 01:38:11.439
Um yeah, I hope you I hope you found the conversation valuable and I look forward to sharing the next one with you soon.
01:38:23.920 --> 01:38:26.560
Thanks so much for tuning into the conversation.
01:38:26.800 --> 01:38:28.239
Um I hope you've enjoyed it.
01:38:28.399 --> 01:38:42.239
Uh there's a lot of things happening at the moment here at Colabs, so if you're curious about what we get up to, um yeah, we've got uh the impact program and Kinesis, a pre-accelerator, that are kicking off soon.
01:38:42.399 --> 01:38:52.079
So if you're curious about the pre-accelerator or are interested in challenge-led innovation but might not know where to start, I will encourage you to check out Kinesis.
01:38:52.560 --> 01:38:59.439
So we'll be doing challenge-led innovation there, um, where you'll be getting access to lab space to be able to bring your idea to life.
01:38:59.600 --> 01:39:01.359
So be sure to check that one out.
01:39:01.520 --> 01:39:02.640
Um, it's on our website.
01:39:02.800 --> 01:39:12.560
There's going to be a lot more from us where we talk about challenge led innovation and ways in which we can try and do a systemic approach to addressing the major challenges of our time.
01:39:12.640 --> 01:39:14.960
So, if that's what you're interested in, stay tuned.
01:39:15.119 --> 01:39:19.199
There's a lot more that we have in the tank to share with you on that topic.