A Chaplain’s Guide To Healthy Grieving After Loss - Kathy Gingrich

WEBVTT
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:12.800
The views and opinions expressed in this program are those of the speakers and do not necessarily reflect the opinions or positions of anyone at Innovative SIM Solutions or our sponsors.
00:00:12.800 --> 00:00:22.640
Welcome to The SIM Cafe, a podcast produced by the team at Innovative SIM Solutions, edited by Shelly Houser.
00:00:22.640 --> 00:00:37.679
Join our host, Deb Tauber, and co-host Jerrod Jeffries, as they sit down with subject matter experts from across the globe to reimagine clinical education and the use of simulation.
00:00:37.679 --> 00:00:47.520
So pour yourself a cup of relaxation, sit back, tune in, and learn something new from The Sim Cafe.
00:00:54.079 --> 00:01:12.000
Welcome to another episode of The Sim Cafe, and today we have Kathy Gingrich, who is a dear friend, and she's a chaplain, and I've known her for at least 25 years, I think.
00:01:12.000 --> 00:01:13.359
Don't you think?
00:01:13.359 --> 00:01:14.719
Probably.
00:01:14.719 --> 00:01:15.280
Yeah.
00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:15.760
Yeah.
00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:26.640
We met at Good Samaritan Hospital in the emergency department where she was a chaplain and she provided so much comfort to me through the years.
00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.599
And today we're gonna talk about grief.
00:01:29.599 --> 00:01:34.079
So, Kathy, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your experiences?
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:38.959
We'll talk about grief and simulation and how it can be helpful to people.
00:01:39.280 --> 00:01:40.640
Okay, well, good to see you, Deb.
00:01:40.640 --> 00:01:41.599
Nice to be with you today.
00:01:41.599 --> 00:01:43.680
Thank you for this opportunity.
00:01:43.680 --> 00:01:49.599
I've worked as a um addiction counselor, chaplain, social worker, and pastor.
00:01:49.599 --> 00:01:52.319
So that's some of the experience that I bring.
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.480
And grief's been a part of all that.
00:01:54.480 --> 00:02:04.319
Whether I was pastoring or working with alcoholics and addicts and their families, working in the emergency room, grief was pretty prevalent in my work experience.
00:02:04.319 --> 00:02:13.680
And I bring the belief that grief is a universal human experience, that very few people escape without experiencing grief.
00:02:13.680 --> 00:02:15.680
It's just universal.
00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:19.919
I think that cultural differences impact how we grieve.
00:02:19.919 --> 00:02:26.800
I think the circumstances of what we grieve impacts our response to grief.
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:31.680
But I do think that we grieve real and imaginary things, Deb.
00:02:31.680 --> 00:02:45.520
So it's real and imaginary things.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:49.120
Then it's people, places, pets, opportunities.
00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.840
I think we grieve all of that.
00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:54.080
Well, and I think it's interesting.
00:02:54.080 --> 00:03:00.400
Kath and I had talked about doing this podcast interview for years, to be honest.
00:03:00.400 --> 00:03:01.680
For years.
00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:08.560
And many of you listeners who are listeners may or may not know about my dog Maggie.
00:03:08.560 --> 00:03:21.439
And I lost Maggie this week, and I think that I grieved her loss, the her upcoming loss for years.
00:03:21.439 --> 00:03:35.039
And it was such a beautiful experience because I knew that I had appreciated her all along, but I knew that I wasn't going to get to keep her forever.
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:38.080
I think that's the thing about animals.
00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:46.560
So when I lost her, we went ahead and called the veterinarian to come in and put her to sleep at home.
00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.360
And she had had some bleeding.
00:03:49.360 --> 00:03:55.360
She was bleeding from five different sources when we finally called the veterinarian.
00:03:55.360 --> 00:04:02.879
And we were able to have her fall asleep in my arms while she was eating ice cream.
00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.080
And I remember her that way.
00:04:06.080 --> 00:04:13.280
And I think what I had been grieving had been a dramatic loss to Maggie.
00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:26.240
And for that, for anyone who doesn't know, Maggie was a 65-pound Brindle boxer that I was so blessed to have for 12 and a half years.
00:04:26.240 --> 00:04:29.360
A beautiful sweet dog, a great spirit.
00:04:29.360 --> 00:04:30.639
Thank you.
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:32.639
She really was.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:37.920
Now, Katha, do you think that grief ever really ends, or does it just change forms?
00:04:38.240 --> 00:04:42.000
You know, I I think we can assimilate grief.
00:04:42.000 --> 00:04:44.079
I think we can integrate grief.
00:04:44.079 --> 00:04:47.120
I think we can accommodate and adjust to grief.
00:04:47.120 --> 00:04:53.680
But I I think our grief experiences are part of us, or part of our story, part of our narrative.
00:04:53.680 --> 00:05:00.800
Um, so I I think, you know, I think grief and loss initially can be pretty disorienting.
00:05:00.800 --> 00:05:05.199
And I think we can get reoriented and restabilized, but it becomes a part of it.
00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.120
Maggie's a part of your story, Dad.
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:08.319
Maggie's in your heart.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:18.079
She left her paw prints all across your heart, maybe fur in your house, but but her paw prints are on your heart forever, and that becomes part of your story.
00:05:18.079 --> 00:05:20.240
It's how Maggie was a part of your life.
00:05:20.240 --> 00:05:26.079
So we accommodate, we adjust, we assimilate, um, but they become a part of us.
00:05:26.079 --> 00:05:26.079
us.
00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:30.240
What does healthy grieving actually look like for from your perspective?
00:05:30.240 --> 00:05:37.839
From a perspective of chaplain, how do you believe if someone is grieving in a healthy way that that might look?
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:43.199
I think grief that is expressed in a healthy way is supported.
00:05:43.199 --> 00:05:47.519
I think the person or the situation or circumstances have support.
00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:58.079
I think the pain in the loss is acknowledged in such a way that we really listen and hear the story and the pain of the other person.
00:05:58.079 --> 00:06:06.959
And I think we do that without judging and analyzing and um lecturing the person or critiquing the person.
00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:18.560
Um grief needs an audience, and so for healthy grief to be worked through, I think that process involves support and acknowledgement.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:28.800
And telling the story is important, and the way you tell Maggie's story today, I promise you, Deb, will be different than how you tell that story six months from now.
00:06:28.800 --> 00:06:39.040
Um, because that story will evolve and your memories will evolve, and you will add things and you will subtract things from it, but that story kind of becomes a part.
00:06:39.040 --> 00:06:41.040
And so healthy grief is like that.
00:06:41.040 --> 00:06:43.199
It gets the story gets retold.
00:06:43.199 --> 00:06:49.600
You lit up when I told you about my assessment of Maggie as being a sweet spirited dog.
00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:51.360
You just got a smile to your face.
00:06:51.360 --> 00:06:55.920
I mean, so hearing those stories becomes part of the healthy grief too, I think.
00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:08.079
Um, and then when people can begin to share what they want and need, um, they can initiate activities again, they can initiate social contact again.
00:07:08.079 --> 00:07:16.639
Um, the sadness comes down a little bit and the the joy and happiness increases, is another way that healthy grief is expressed.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:23.040
Um, we find new outlets, new, we maybe learn something new, acquire new skills.
00:07:23.040 --> 00:07:31.120
Um I think we go we gain in self-esteem and strength because we we came through a tough time and we survived.
00:07:31.120 --> 00:07:33.759
We made it, we came to the other side of that.
00:07:33.759 --> 00:07:42.560
Um, and as a chaplain, I would say probably uh use a religious term or spiritual term on your bit, I think we kind of sanctify that experience.
00:07:42.560 --> 00:07:47.279
By that I mean we be begin to see them in a new light, in a in a new way.
00:07:47.279 --> 00:07:54.240
We release that love while we also acknowledge and give thanks for what we got and gave in that relationship.
00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:03.600
So there's an exchange that goes on that kind of makes that relationship more special, more holy, more a part of us, if you will.
00:08:03.600 --> 00:08:12.000
And I'm sure you have some bad memories of of Maggie too, maybe, and maybe when she puppy she chewed something or went potty somewhere, she won.
00:08:12.000 --> 00:08:20.639
There's probably some memory, but those begin to kind of dissipate, and we just see the the grief person or thing in a new light.
00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:23.120
And and we just cover them with love.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:24.800
That's healthy grief, I think.
00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:33.120
Now, in chaplaincy school, are they beginning to use simulation or have they been using it or how do they use it?
00:08:33.519 --> 00:08:38.960
It's been used somewhat, it's kind of called role-playing more in simulation, I think.
00:08:38.960 --> 00:08:42.240
But begin to act out scenes and how you might respond.
00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:45.440
And verbatims has always been a part of a chaplain experience.
00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:49.200
We've had to write verbatim and and have feedback on those.
00:08:49.200 --> 00:08:54.879
But I think the role-playing is another way that we get involved with um simulation.
00:08:55.200 --> 00:09:00.960
So in chaplaincy, they just simply call it role-playing, they don't really call it simulation.
00:09:01.279 --> 00:09:02.639
More role playing, I would say.
00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:06.159
Simulation's beginning to happen, but it's more role playing.
00:09:06.159 --> 00:09:06.799
Okay.
00:09:07.440 --> 00:09:12.960
Where do you feel like people struggle most spiritually when they're grieving?
00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.960
It depends on the circumstances of the of the death.
00:09:16.960 --> 00:09:23.279
I mean, there's so many different ways of dying and different ways we experience grief and loss.
00:09:23.279 --> 00:09:28.159
But I think one common reaction is the woulda, coulda, shoulda.
00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:29.840
Is there more I could have said?
00:09:29.840 --> 00:09:31.600
Is there more I could have done?
00:09:31.600 --> 00:09:34.480
Is there where I could have been to that person?
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.679
Did I do enough?
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:41.039
Um when things feel unfinished that I didn't say or I didn't do something that I could have.
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:49.840
I think another part of that, depending on one's spiritual and religious outlook, but where was God when X happened?
00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:53.600
You know, where was God when so-and-so committed suicide?
00:09:53.600 --> 00:09:56.720
Where was God when my daughter was drowning in that pool?
00:09:56.720 --> 00:10:02.080
Where was God, or why didn't God stop XYZ from happening?
00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:04.559
I think that's another spiritual struggle.
00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:06.080
And then why me?
00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:06.879
Why now?
00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:12.240
I mean, those are pretty common questions people ask when they're initially grieving.
00:10:12.799 --> 00:10:21.440
Well, and I think you have in your experiences, I mean, how long did you do emergency medicine and chaplaincy?
00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:23.840
Uh well, I'm still doing chaplaincy a little bit.
00:10:23.840 --> 00:10:25.200
Um agree, agree.
00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:25.679
I know.
00:10:25.679 --> 00:10:26.799
So what has that been?
00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:29.279
Close to 30 years, Dev.
00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:46.720
So 30 years, and you don't call the chaplain in because it's well, sometimes you do for happy times, but many, many more times it's because people are in struggle, they're in pain, they're in, they're seeing something that they didn't expect.
00:10:46.720 --> 00:10:47.279
Right.
00:10:47.279 --> 00:10:52.399
And that's when, especially the the dabda, is that what they call it?
00:10:52.399 --> 00:10:56.480
The denial, anger, depression, bargaining, acceptance.
00:10:56.480 --> 00:10:58.720
That was Kluba Ross's take.
00:10:58.799 --> 00:11:01.279
Yeah, it was helpful in many ways.
00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:06.559
There are other theorists and and theories of grieving and the grief process.
00:11:06.559 --> 00:11:13.200
She was aimed at a specific time, and I think she did great work, and I appreciate the work that she did.
00:11:13.200 --> 00:11:20.080
But I think sometimes people get hung up that it's a linear process, and I do A and then B and then C and then D.
00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:21.360
And it's it's not that way.
00:11:21.360 --> 00:11:34.720
It's much more of a churning wave process where you go through the cycle and you come back, and you might have denial one day and bargaining another, and come back to denial that this isn't real and this isn't happening, and this can't be.
00:11:34.720 --> 00:11:41.759
So I I think it's helpful, but I wouldn't want people to just get stuck on Kuba Ross's model.
00:11:42.159 --> 00:11:45.200
Do you have a different model that you prefer?
00:11:45.519 --> 00:11:47.840
There's been, yeah, I've done the different ones.
00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:54.000
But I I also like the work of Granger Westburg in terms of the spiritual care side of it.
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:58.159
There's often initially a kind of a shock reaction to the news of a death.
00:11:58.159 --> 00:12:03.200
Even when we anticipate someone's death, like my mom was in hospice at the end.
00:12:03.200 --> 00:12:05.360
We knew her time was coming.
00:12:05.360 --> 00:12:10.639
But even when that person takes that last breath, and in my case, I was able to hold my mom's hand.
00:12:10.639 --> 00:12:13.279
My brother had one hand and I had the other.
00:12:13.279 --> 00:12:16.080
But there's still kind of a wave of, is this real?
00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.080
Is it was this really her last breath?
00:12:18.080 --> 00:12:19.840
Is this really the end?
00:12:19.840 --> 00:12:26.080
And then imagine if it's a child that gets hit on a bicycle or a drowning or a teenager commits suicide.
00:12:26.080 --> 00:12:29.200
The shock is just increased so much more.
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:32.080
But then he said there's kind of an emotional release.
00:12:32.080 --> 00:12:35.759
And sometimes there's just a physical release as well.
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:44.799
I I think of people who just fell out, they fell to the ground in the emergency room when the doctor and I came in and had to break bad news to them.
00:12:44.799 --> 00:12:48.639
Um so there's a physical and some cry and there's an utterance.
00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:53.200
He also talked about panic and guilt feelings that people feel when there's a death.
00:12:53.200 --> 00:12:54.480
Sometimes there's anger.
00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:56.559
You know, why why didn't the doctors do more?
00:12:56.559 --> 00:12:58.720
Why didn't the police say something?
00:12:58.720 --> 00:13:04.559
Um so and then he talked about people just can't return to their usual activities.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:06.559
And I think that's often true too.
00:13:06.559 --> 00:13:11.120
People need kind of a time to reset themselves, but they just have a hard time.
00:13:11.120 --> 00:13:19.679
And then he's Granger Westbrook that eventually people begin to see glimpses of hope and they adjust to the reality and and they find a way to go forward.
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:24.879
But I think he provided a little bit more depth to what Kubler Ross's model was.
00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.039
Um, so that that comes to mind.
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:27.519
to mind.
00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:32.399
Have you seen grief deepen someone's sense of meaning or purpose?
00:13:32.720 --> 00:13:33.600
Oh, absolutely.
00:13:33.600 --> 00:13:40.559
I mean, I I think about my work with perinatal loss and all those parents that are part of a share program.
00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:50.399
A lot of people take their loss and turn it into helping others, that they've been through an experience and they want a companion and journey with someone.
00:13:50.399 --> 00:13:54.639
I mean, think about the parents who have lost children to gun violence, Deb.
00:13:54.639 --> 00:14:05.679
And there's a number of groups that when there's a school shooting, they step up and they go be with those families, like in Uvaldi, that had lost children tragically and traumatically.
00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:08.879
They take their grief and turn it into helping other people.
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:20.799
Moms against drunk driving, mothers against drunk driving is one of those who, you know, they lost a loved one to someone's drinking or driving, and they're out there trying to educate and advocate.
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:25.360
So absolutely, I've I've seen people live more purposefully.
00:14:25.360 --> 00:14:30.399
Yeah, a lot a lot of charitable kind of things come out of people's loss.
00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:40.159
They want to find ways that you know, it's a club no one wants to be a part of, like when you lose a child to gun violence or a SID's death, no one wants to be a part of that club, Deb.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:48.159
But they find themselves in that group, in that place, and they begin to help each other and they find strength in helping each other, I think.
00:14:48.159 --> 00:14:56.080
And people put resources into founding organizations and charities that help other people cope with grief and loss.
00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:57.840
Have you seen some of that in your work?
00:14:58.960 --> 00:15:05.039
Oh, yeah, the grassroots, the grassroots people who've been affected by something.
00:15:05.039 --> 00:15:11.440
And I think civility is another, you know, situation where you've got, you know, how do we treat each other?
00:15:11.440 --> 00:15:15.919
I think that, you know, some of the work from Cynthia uh Clark, Dr.
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:28.240
Clark, and some of the work by you know, some of the other individuals who have who've done that and seen that in healthcare, and how do you prepare people for incivility?
00:15:28.240 --> 00:15:33.120
How we treat each other is at the end of the day, it's so important.
00:15:34.159 --> 00:15:39.360
Well, and it may be unfair of me to ask for a little too soon to ask, and I I want to be respectful about that.
00:15:39.360 --> 00:15:47.200
But do you see any way that Maggie's death is changing how you view the world or how you see your purpose right now in the world?
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:52.399
I think thanks for asking that, and thanks for being respectful of my feelings.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:57.759
I'm trying to, and I and I know that that I'm just trying to do this.
00:15:57.759 --> 00:16:12.879
I'm trying to look at her existence as having made me a better person to realize and recognize how much she gave me, how much she loved me, and what that unconditional love looked like.
00:16:12.879 --> 00:16:21.600
And earlier you said, you said you can remember when she was bad, when she was a puppy, there was so few times that I would be mad at her.
00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:26.480
For some reason, I found these things that she did funny and enduring.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:31.600
And she used to, you know, she'd run away sometimes and I'd have to catch her.
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:43.840
And you know, I just playing with the toilet paper, and yeah, and she actually, because boxers are known to be working dogs, that's what they're raised for, they're trained for.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:16:51.840
And so she would go and I used to have rose gardens, and she would pull my rose bushes out after we would plant them.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:17:03.279
And in my perspective, I can only look at her life was a gift to me, and that I was truly blessed to have her for as long as I did.
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:08.960
But I know in my heart and in my mind, I'll never find a replacement for her.
00:17:08.960 --> 00:17:10.880
There will never be, yeah.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:11.599
Right.
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:30.000
It was funny because the last year or so I um I joined a Facebook grieving pets page, and it was really depressing because some of these people really would not be able to move forward at all after the death of their pet.
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:44.480
And, you know, I think because animals love us when we're at our at our lowest point, when we might might consider ourselves ugly, our thoughts, and they don't they don't ever they don't ever treat us that way.
00:17:44.480 --> 00:17:47.519
They just look at us, look to us for, I don't know.
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:52.799
It's a magical experience to to be blessed to have uh an animal.
00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:55.359
Well, as you know, I had Izzy and Munchkin.
00:17:55.359 --> 00:18:00.240
Izzy was a poodle shutsu bishan mix potentially.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:01.599
She was a mixed dog in a rescue.
00:18:01.599 --> 00:18:07.359
Munchkin was a was a shihtsu, but they didn't care what kind of day I had in the ER at the hospital.
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:08.240
They really did care.
00:18:08.240 --> 00:18:10.480
They just were happy to see me when I came home.
00:18:10.480 --> 00:18:12.960
They didn't care if I was in a good mood, bad mood.
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.920
They just were there feed me, love me, play with me, walk me, all those kind of things.
00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:23.200
And I don't know about you, but there were some days I liked my dogs better than I liked some people.
00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:40.480
And so uh they just kind of helped help uh ground me sometimes, and uh I think they made me a better person too, because I wanted to be who they thought I was and take good care of them and feed them and love them and walk them and gave them the best medical care I could till the end.
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:53.920
And so, and we're not been ready to get another dog yet, but one way I've kind of channeled that is I've been doing some pet sitting for some neighbors and friends, and I might get close to having another dog again thinking about it.
00:18:53.920 --> 00:19:02.000
But I I just feel I don't know, it just feels so good to have a pet in our lives, and so we have a cat still, and uh we spoil him.
00:19:02.000 --> 00:19:06.960
But yeah, grief, grief changes us, and they touch our lives, those pets.
00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:13.440
But people also grieve loss of jobs, loss of spouses, I mean loss of opportunities.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.599
There are a lot of things that people grieve.
00:19:15.599 --> 00:19:34.880
I think I had told you earlier that uh part of my job as a chaplain was to visit patients on the psych unit, and almost everyone I listened to had a grief loss trauma story somewhere earlier in their childhood, and they were still coping with that and dealing with that and trying to make sense of that grief experience.
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.519
I don't know if time to say how do you help them with that?
00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.640
How do you how describe the what that looks like?
00:19:40.640 --> 00:19:54.319
My side of it would have looked like was to listen and to not try to talk too much, but just sort of hold space for their storytelling and their pain and and ask that how that's a part of their lives now.
00:19:54.319 --> 00:19:59.039
What do you still want to say or need to do about that experience?
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:04.160
If they had any indication that they were people of faith, where is God for you in that?
00:20:04.160 --> 00:20:07.200
How has that affected your relationship with God?
00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:10.079
Um, some of those conversations came out of that.
00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:10.559
out of that.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:17.359
Now, what do you think some of the most helpful things people can say or not say to someone who is grieving?
00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:26.960
I think the tendency that I've seen with a lot of people is when people are grieving, there's a silence and people want to speak and fill the silence.
00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:39.200
And because of that intense raw moment of grief and the discomfort that many people feel in trying to respond to it, they tend to talk too much and they say too much.
00:20:39.200 --> 00:20:50.880
And so I think unintentionally many times, but they say things that aren't helpful, like, well, you shouldn't feel that way, or when it's a child death or a perinatal loss.
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:52.880
Well, do you have other children at home?
00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.799
You know, Dad, that's not the point.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:21:05.119
I can have other children at home, but I just lost this child, my unique relationship with this child, or um, you know, a perenatal loss.
00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:07.440
Well, you and your husband can have other children.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:16.720
Maybe, maybe not, but again, that so disrespects the moment and the loss of this hoped-for child.
00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:21.200
So I think filling the space, trying to talk too much is part of it.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:26.079
People try to talk about themselves and one up, well, you lost a child, I've lost two children.
00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:32.720
Again, it's not time to one up the person that's grief, or well, this was God's plan.
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:36.000
God needed another flower in the garden of heaven.
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:49.920
I mean, things people say, and I really do think they mean well, but they're they're painful words, and they're words that stick with people kind of like a thorn sometimes, or adds adds to the scar that is forming in a way.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:58.559
I think helpful things to say are I can't even imagine what this is like for you right now, or how hard this might be.
00:21:58.559 --> 00:21:59.759
Um, please tell me.
00:21:59.759 --> 00:22:02.880
I know you weren't expecting this.
00:22:02.880 --> 00:22:06.400
Is there someone I can call to come and be with you at this time?
00:22:06.400 --> 00:22:11.039
So offering support, acknowledging that they might have someone else they want.
00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.359
Sometimes words aren't even needed.
00:22:13.359 --> 00:22:21.200
You know, just sit down in a chair beside the person, or if they're open to gentle touch or a hug, if it seems appropriate.
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:26.880
Sometimes it's not the words, it's just being present in the moment and not being afraid.
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:31.359
In in CPE, clinical pastoral education, we called it getting in the muck with people.
00:22:31.359 --> 00:22:36.480
You know, you're not afraid to stand in the painful dark place with people.
00:22:36.480 --> 00:22:38.559
I don't have to go away from that.
00:22:38.559 --> 00:22:40.480
I will stay here with you.
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:46.240
And I think trying to avoid why questions, because why gets us into our head.
00:22:46.240 --> 00:22:50.079
And this is an emotional, intense experience.
00:22:50.079 --> 00:22:52.640
So why do you think this happens?
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:54.640
Those questions aren't helpful.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:22:57.039
How can I be with you in this moment?
00:22:57.039 --> 00:23:01.839
I think that can help people think about it, but maybe get back to a feeling level.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:07.359
Well, I need a I need a water, I need to call my husband, I need someone to pick my child up from school.
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:10.640
You know, all those kind of things then come to their minds.
00:23:11.039 --> 00:23:21.119
And I think you touched upon something that that I didn't really think about, but when even when someone's given a diagnosis, they start a grief process then.
00:23:21.119 --> 00:23:32.400
Whether it be mental health diagnosis, a cancer diagnosis, a cardiac diagnosis, arthritis, the way we change.
00:23:32.799 --> 00:23:38.799
Because it alters how it alters how we see ourselves and it alters how we see the future.
00:23:38.799 --> 00:23:40.880
I have a cancer diagnosis.
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:42.799
Now I'm feeling very vulnerable.
00:23:42.799 --> 00:23:47.119
People may even feel betrayed by my body's letting me down right now.
00:23:47.119 --> 00:23:49.920
Or I I really worked hard to be physically fit.
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:51.599
How can I have a heart issue now?
00:23:51.599 --> 00:24:04.559
So I mean, all of those things trigger a grief response or an anticipatory grief response that my life is somehow going to be changed or diminished in a way that I didn't expect or anticipate.
00:24:04.559 --> 00:24:05.279
Yeah.
00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.759
So that could start the process too.
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:15.759
I think for those of us who work in healthcare or or work around a lot of death, have to remember that each death is unique.
00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:21.119
I mean, Deb, there were days I saw four, five, eight deaths on the same day.
00:24:21.119 --> 00:24:27.119
And I know people that have never seen a death or never been present when someone died.
00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:31.599
And so those are vastly different experiences in how we view life.
00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:36.720
But it no death is the same, no person is the same, no pet is the same.
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:45.119
And so how we experience that, we have to remember in this moment at this time and just stay in the place right now.
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:45.279
now.
00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:49.279
How do you carry all those stories without becoming overwhelmed?
00:24:49.599 --> 00:24:52.480
I think rituals of self-care are really important.
00:24:52.480 --> 00:25:02.000
Massages, exercise, going for walks, uh, eating well, make sure you don't overindulge in substances that are harmful.
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:04.559
Prayer was a part of that for me.
00:25:04.559 --> 00:25:08.240
And I think I've told you before that, but I had this ritual.
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:13.440
We had a house up on Lake Michigan that we would go to every every few weeks.
00:25:13.440 --> 00:25:18.240
And I would go down by the lake and I would sit there and I would extend my hands.
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:28.240
And the the traumas and the deaths and the painful things that I was still holding on to as a chaplain, I would imagine putting them into Lake Michigan.
00:25:28.240 --> 00:25:31.920
And I would ask God to take those experiences.
00:25:31.920 --> 00:25:36.880
And to me, Lake Michigan is a little bit like an ocean, it's got waves and current too.
00:25:36.880 --> 00:25:47.920
And give those experiences to the lake, to God, and ask God to take them and give back to me what I still needed to work on or carry or learn from.
00:25:47.920 --> 00:25:58.160
But I got rid of a lot of stuff that I was carrying just by that ritual of release and accepting what God wanted to give to me.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:08.640
I also think when you have the opportunity in healthcare, which we often did, debriefings and diffusings were really important to in that moment to get to put together the story.
00:26:08.640 --> 00:26:15.599
I think of one time when one of the nurses was really upset because she didn't think the patient had been anointed.
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.359
And I actually had arranged for a priest to come and do the anointing.
00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:27.839
But she was carrying with her the belief that that had not happened and that was disruptive for her and that the patient's care had been neglected.
00:26:27.839 --> 00:26:34.559
But because I had been part of that story, I could say, no, no, the priest was here and anointed and provided that before the patient died.
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:43.039
So had we not sat down together for a diffusing, she wouldn't have known that part of the story, and I wouldn't have known how much pain she was carrying.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:48.319
But because we came together in a diffusing, we could talk about that stuff together.
00:26:48.319 --> 00:26:59.359
So I think that's another way of doing it, to be able to talk about it and what each person brought and contributed to that experience, what their role was and what they're still carrying from it.
00:26:59.359 --> 00:27:09.039
I was really surprised in my career, but a generation or two ago, doctors were taught that if the patient died, they failed.
00:27:09.039 --> 00:27:11.839
And I just couldn't believe that.
00:27:11.839 --> 00:27:21.279
But they, a couple of different doctors, assured with me that that was true, and that back then they weren't taught how to help people cope with end-of-life conversations.
00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:31.680
I remember one doctor who refused to ever write hospice orders for his patients who were clearly imminently dying, but it just wasn't his belief system to have that happen.
00:27:31.680 --> 00:27:40.160
And so I think we have to have realistic expectations about who we are and what we can and can't provide.
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:47.839
We can't help everybody all of the time, but we can help some of the people some of the time, and I think we have to do that.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:50.960
So I think that's how I cope with carrying that.
00:27:50.960 --> 00:28:02.240
And sometimes just personally for me, imagining Jesus taking that person the rest of the way to God or coming and intervening, you know, with it for me as a Christian.
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:07.519
Um, but I acknowledge that there are other faith traditions and just as valid, valid and valuable as well.
00:28:07.519 --> 00:28:09.039
But for me, God was a part of that.
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:09.440
of that.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:10.640
Thank you.
00:28:10.640 --> 00:28:15.839
So what would you recommend for someone who feels like they're stuck in grief?
00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:17.680
How long have they been stuck?
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:20.319
Are they aware of what where they're stuck?
00:28:20.319 --> 00:28:24.079
Again, I think we have to set real expectations about grief.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:33.200
You know, in our culture, you get three days off when a spouse or a parent or a child dies, we're still in shock and denial the first three days of a death often.
00:28:33.200 --> 00:28:42.960
And so, you know, there's not ABC linear way to death here, and it's not like I'm gonna do this week one and week two, and by week six everything will be hunky-dory again.
00:28:42.960 --> 00:28:47.119
I mean, I think I think we have to normalize the experience.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:29:01.599
I think if they're not eating, sleeping, that kind of thing, and it's been an extended period of time, then I think they would want to talk with their doctor, their practitioner, a mental health counselor, clinician to see if there's some things that might help.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:04.880
Because if you don't get good sleep, then it's hard to do other things as well.
00:29:04.880 --> 00:29:06.880
So is medication needed?
00:29:06.880 --> 00:29:14.000
That would be outside of my realm of experience, but doctors or other healthcare practitioners can have those conversations.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:17.920
Are there things that they can do to journal about the experience?
00:29:17.920 --> 00:29:20.400
Are they part of a grief support group?
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:22.880
Are they willing to go to a grief support group?
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:34.880
Is there someone in their faith community at the mosque, the synagogue, the temple, the parish that they would want to talk with about that grief to be in trying to unpack the parts where they feel stuck?
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:51.039
I mean, I think if people aren't supported, then grief does get derailed and they form unhealthy relationships with food, alcohol, drugs, other people, because they're looking for something that fills a hole that is not the right thing to fill that hole for them, in my opinion.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:53.119
So I think I think that's part of it.
00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:55.519
No, I think that's very helpful.
00:29:55.519 --> 00:30:03.119
And if any of our listeners are looking for places to join grief groups or support groups, where can they go for those kinds of resources?
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:08.160
A lot of funeral homes and hospice organizations offer grief support groups.
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:10.799
You can probably Google that for a lot of places.
00:30:10.799 --> 00:30:14.640
And even if you live in rural areas, things are done on Zoom.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:23.519
I know in our area we have grief support groups that are done on Zoom for people that they can still participate even if they can't physically go and be present.
00:30:23.519 --> 00:30:26.720
So that would be one place I would suggest.
00:30:26.720 --> 00:30:30.559
And there's very specialized teenagers that are grieving support groups.
00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:35.279
There are support groups for people that lost pets, survivors of suicide situation.
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:39.359
I mean, there's all kinds of specialized support groups out there.
00:30:39.359 --> 00:30:55.359
Um but I think acknowledging that one is stuck, that that's you know, initially we can see people overreacting perhaps in our point of view, but really they're just reacting normal to the abnormal event, right?
00:30:55.359 --> 00:30:57.359
Right, right, right, right, right.
00:30:57.359 --> 00:31:15.519
So, but when it becomes like a prolonged, extended thing and it's affecting my activities of daily living, it's affecting my ability to socialize and engage normally, to eat, drink, to eat, sleep, all that kind of stuff, then I then I need an intervention, I need help, I need I need a companion to walk me through that.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:27.359
I it's interesting, I've had several friends recently diagnosed with breast cancer in different healthcare systems, and they have reported that they've been assigned a navigator or someone to journey with them through that.
00:31:27.359 --> 00:31:30.400
And I think how cool, that wasn't there a number of years ago.
00:31:30.400 --> 00:31:31.359
Right.
00:31:31.359 --> 00:31:33.440
And nurse navigators.
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:38.480
Yeah, and so I think you know, some funeral homes offer support groups as well.
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:42.720
So if they've been involved with funeral homes, that might be another place to go.
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:43.839
Thank you.
00:31:43.839 --> 00:31:54.079
Thank you so much for being part of this conversation and sharing your thoughts and insights and experiences with our listeners and especially with me.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:31:56.720
I'm so very grateful for our friendship.
00:31:57.039 --> 00:31:59.680
Can I talk a little bit more about simulation with you, that?
00:31:59.680 --> 00:32:02.640
Because we talked about how this ties into simulation.
00:32:02.640 --> 00:32:04.079
Absolutely.
00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:09.200
I think part of what that can do is help to normalize the experience.
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:17.920
Like I said, these are normal reactions to an abnormal event, and we can help people by helping them prepare and anticipate what is to come.
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:26.160
You were part of a grief support group with pet loss, so you were anticipating some things that were going to come with Baggy's end times.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:28.559
So that got you a little bit more ready.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:33.599
And I think we can do that in our practice conversations with people and in simulation.
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.960
You know, your loved one's breathing is going to slow down.
00:32:36.960 --> 00:32:38.799
No, I can't give them a drink.
00:32:38.799 --> 00:32:43.039
I can't give your dad a drink anymore, but I can put a wet washcloth on his face.
00:32:43.039 --> 00:32:47.440
I mean, there's things you can begin to do to help people prepare.
00:32:47.440 --> 00:32:53.279
I had a neighbor who's dog, she had to have the dog euthanized, and she said, Kathy, will you go with me?
00:32:53.279 --> 00:32:55.039
I I can't be in the room.
00:32:55.039 --> 00:32:57.759
I I know it's time, but I just can't be in the room.
00:32:57.759 --> 00:33:03.519
And I said, Absolutely, I will go with you, I will stay in the room, I will hold Toby's paw till the end.
00:33:03.519 --> 00:33:12.480
And by the time we got through the process, she was able to stand in the doorway while the while the vet and I were with Toby.
00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:20.480
But Deb, I would not have judged her if she didn't come in the room because we all deal with grief differently and we all have different levels of tolerance.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:26.799
I was so glad for her that she could be in the room and see that it was a peaceful process.
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:39.279
Um, the other thing I think in simulations, we can help people learn to say, thank you, and I'm sorry, and I love you, and I'm gonna miss you, and thank you for teaching me XYZ.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:50.480
I think in simulations too, if there's something that we can give back to that person, you know, a prayer, a word of comfort, a scripture, a reading, a video, a picture.
00:33:50.480 --> 00:34:00.000
I know sometimes we have cut like a lock of hair or a fingerprint or a thumbprint or a handprint or a footprint, start a memory box.
00:34:00.000 --> 00:34:02.720
Uh, we've given children blankets or stuffed animals.
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:13.280
If there's some little tangible thing that we can give people, um, not I don't mean hokey thing, I mean a real genuine something that we can help them in that moment.
00:34:13.280 --> 00:34:16.639
I think simulation helps us prepare for that.
00:34:16.639 --> 00:34:25.360
I don't, I don't want people to lie, but learning to say, you did everything you could, you called 911, you gave them the best chance possible.
00:34:25.360 --> 00:34:30.400
If they really weren't in pain when they died or were dying, you know, they they were peaceful.
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:37.599
I mean, I think there's things we can say and do in those moments to help prepare people for the pain and loss that is to come.
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:45.280
I used to say that I was with people in the worst days of their lives, you know, the worst day of their life when their child died or their spouse died.
00:34:45.280 --> 00:34:51.920
But really, I think some of the worst moments are when you come home and the house is empty, they're not at the table anymore.
00:34:51.920 --> 00:34:55.360
You know, you look down at Maggie's bed and she's not on her bed anymore.
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:59.599
But if we can prepare people for that loss, is there someone that can go home with you?
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:01.199
Is there someone that will can be there?
00:35:01.199 --> 00:35:03.920
Do you want to go to someone else's home for tonight?
00:35:03.920 --> 00:35:08.079
Uh you know, just helping people, because grief is so disorienting.
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:12.880
And if we can help them reorient a little bit, that's a gift we can give to people.
00:35:12.880 --> 00:35:13.679
But thank you.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:14.320
I thank you.
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:18.880
I didn't No, I'm really glad that you added that because you're 100% right.
00:35:18.880 --> 00:35:22.800
I know I have a a little shrine set up with Maggie's things.
00:35:22.800 --> 00:35:28.800
I have a her collar and I have her bell that she used to ring, and I haven't been able to move the beds yet.
00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:31.840
There's still five beds around the house.
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:35.119
My husband moved the dog bowls, the toys are still there.
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:37.280
It's a process.
00:35:37.280 --> 00:35:38.639
It's a process.
00:35:41.599 --> 00:35:43.280
Not a timeline, not linear.
00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:44.159
No.
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:45.119
All right.
00:35:45.119 --> 00:35:46.000
Well, thank you.
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.280
Thank you for the opportunity.
00:35:47.280 --> 00:35:50.159
And happy simulating.
00:35:57.519 --> 00:36:00.639
Thanks for joining us here at the SIM Cafe.
00:36:00.639 --> 00:36:02.480
We hope you enjoyed.
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:07.840
Visit us at www.innovative simsolutions.com.
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:13.599
And be sure to hit that like and subscribe button so you never miss an episode.
00:36:13.599 --> 00:36:20.000
Innovative Sim Solutions is your one stop shop for your simulation needs.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:22.239
A turnkey solution.