Intergenerational Theology: Asking Better Questions, with Tanya Yuen S4E34

WEBVTT
00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:03.647
What if the biggest challenge to intergenerational church isn't finding the
00:00:03.647 --> 00:00:09.217
right program, rhythm or resources, but rethinking what it means to be the church?
00:00:10.193 --> 00:00:15.527
I'm Melanie Cave and today I'm speaking with Tanya Ewan, a doctoral researcher
00:00:15.527 --> 00:00:19.917
based in Canada, about how churches include children and whether children are
00:00:19.917 --> 00:00:24.502
truly able to participate, belong and shape the life of their church community.
00:00:25.367 --> 00:00:29.477
Drawing on her research and experience in church leadership and children and
00:00:29.477 --> 00:00:33.577
family ministry, Tanya explores the gap between what church leaders believe
00:00:33.577 --> 00:00:36.890
about children and what their churches actually practice.
00:00:37.720 --> 00:00:42.741
Together we ask how assumptions about teaching, hierarchy, worship and belonging
00:00:42.991 --> 00:00:45.638
shape the way churches engage people of all ages.
00:00:46.271 --> 00:00:50.707
We also discuss what genuine participation can look like, why intergenerational
00:00:50.707 --> 00:00:54.967
ministry is more than activities or special services, and how churches might
00:00:54.967 --> 00:00:57.759
reflect on whether their practices match their beliefs.
00:00:58.877 --> 00:01:02.877
Along the way, Tanya shares examples of children contributing to worship and
00:01:02.877 --> 00:01:08.270
considers the richness and challenges of bringing generations and languages together in church.
00:01:08.746 --> 00:01:11.846
Thanks for joining us on the Roots for Churches podcast. Here we go.
00:01:14.441 --> 00:01:17.738
Welcome, Tanya, to the Roots for Churches podcast. Great to have you.
00:01:18.331 --> 00:01:20.229
Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
00:01:20.944 --> 00:01:25.229
So, can you give us a little bit of background about you? I was a pastor for
00:01:25.229 --> 00:01:31.359
several years, an associate pastor, and so that meant everything from children
00:01:31.359 --> 00:01:33.123
to youth to young adults.
00:01:33.274 --> 00:01:40.509
But children were always being put to me as well. And so that led me into learning
00:01:40.509 --> 00:01:46.109
more about kids, more about the life of discipleship, starting much earlier
00:01:46.109 --> 00:01:47.510
than I had been assuming.
00:01:47.957 --> 00:01:50.977
And so eventually that brought me to the role that I hold now,
00:01:51.287 --> 00:01:57.369
which is a children and family ministries associate with the Canadian Baptists of Ontario and Quebec.
00:01:57.369 --> 00:02:01.659
And so all of that over the last number of years, the questions churches have
00:02:01.659 --> 00:02:04.765
been asking me have really shown me that...
00:02:05.695 --> 00:02:09.931
We're not asking the best questions. We're asking questions about how to do
00:02:09.931 --> 00:02:13.368
ministry, how to be effective with kids, curriculum.
00:02:13.732 --> 00:02:17.985
But I think there's different questions that need to be asked.
00:02:18.327 --> 00:02:23.121
And so that's brought me to the point of where I entered doctoral studies to
00:02:23.121 --> 00:02:29.051
research and to look into what it means for all ages to be part of the church.
00:02:29.051 --> 00:02:33.221
But then in particular, what does it mean for the youngest among us to actually
00:02:33.221 --> 00:02:36.711
be included in the life of the church? And I know when we've talked before,
00:02:36.711 --> 00:02:40.811
we've often said it feels like the sticking point with intergenerational ministry
00:02:40.811 --> 00:02:43.874
is the senior pastor, is the vicar, the minister.
00:02:44.205 --> 00:02:48.091
They hold the decision making or the strategic direction. And so if they're
00:02:48.091 --> 00:02:53.211
not convinced that intergenerational is good, then it just doesn't really happen in the church.
00:02:53.211 --> 00:02:57.881
So what I understand of your research is that you went and interviewed lots
00:02:57.881 --> 00:03:00.651
of senior pastors and said, tell me about your church.
00:03:00.651 --> 00:03:03.651
Tell me what you think about children. Tell me what you think about intergenerational.
00:03:03.651 --> 00:03:06.941
And we were trying to figure out, is there a sticking point?
00:03:06.941 --> 00:03:10.599
Is there is there something that makes this work? Is there something that doesn't
00:03:10.808 --> 00:03:14.021
that means pastors refuse this or just don't want to engage with it?
00:03:14.121 --> 00:03:17.269
Tell me tell me what came out of your research. Did anything surprise you?
00:03:18.019 --> 00:03:23.394
Yeah, yeah, actually. So I went into this research with an assumption that the
00:03:23.394 --> 00:03:25.114
biggest problem was that senior
00:03:25.114 --> 00:03:29.584
pastors don't have a theology of the child that they can articulate.
00:03:29.584 --> 00:03:34.094
They don't really see children as part of their church. That's for the children's
00:03:34.094 --> 00:03:38.748
pastor or the children's workers to worry about. And so that was my assumption.
00:03:39.068 --> 00:03:44.554
But as I interviewed and asked questions, I was surprised by these beautifully
00:03:44.554 --> 00:03:48.936
well-articulated theologies of the child that senior pastors have.
00:03:49.342 --> 00:03:54.424
And so that was a surprise to me, a pleasant surprise, but also it made me go
00:03:54.424 --> 00:04:00.174
back and think more than, okay, if they have this theology of the child.
00:04:00.929 --> 00:04:02.834
What is the missing piece then?
00:04:02.834 --> 00:04:07.940
And why does this not get reflected in how the church is?
00:04:08.422 --> 00:04:12.414
Why does this mean we continue to separate out ages?
00:04:12.414 --> 00:04:17.745
It's really hard to kind of help this intergenerational vision really get established
00:04:18.076 --> 00:04:20.584
and for pastors to see how this works.
00:04:20.584 --> 00:04:25.624
And, you know, I've even heard from pastors, you know, just show me a church where this works.
00:04:25.624 --> 00:04:29.114
And so that was something that really surprised me. And that's what brought
00:04:29.114 --> 00:04:33.944
me into a different place in my research. And I suppose maybe we need to pause
00:04:33.944 --> 00:04:36.896
for a moment there and say, does intergenerational work?
00:04:37.694 --> 00:04:40.834
Is there evidence, is there research that says intergenerational is a better
00:04:40.834 --> 00:04:46.195
way to see faith formation happen in children and in adults?
00:04:46.387 --> 00:04:48.169
And if that is true, then...
00:04:48.993 --> 00:04:52.291
Why is it not happening universally? Well, I think there is.
00:04:52.291 --> 00:04:57.407
There has been a lot of research done that shows just what happens when intergenerational
00:04:57.547 --> 00:05:02.391
church community is embraced, and there's different expressions of it in different ways.
00:05:02.391 --> 00:05:06.811
But I think what I've discovered, at least in the churches I've been working
00:05:06.811 --> 00:05:09.581
with, why this doesn't happen, because that has been a question.
00:05:09.581 --> 00:05:14.271
If this is so good, if it's engaging, and my own experience as a pastor when
00:05:14.271 --> 00:05:16.431
I would lead intergenerational services.
00:05:16.431 --> 00:05:20.901
I would have so much feedback from adults in particular about how meaningful
00:05:20.901 --> 00:05:23.441
it was and how much they experienced.
00:05:23.441 --> 00:05:28.571
I think for me, what I've come to is that there's this gap from our assumptions
00:05:28.571 --> 00:05:34.791
or theology to our practice, and that there's this missing piece that we're,
00:05:35.291 --> 00:05:41.701
not considering or reflecting on, thinking through deeply enough that moves
00:05:41.701 --> 00:05:48.420
this from just an assumption or a theological belief to actually the practice of being who we are.
00:05:48.769 --> 00:05:53.101
And so that really brought me into looking at the question of ecclesiology and
00:05:53.101 --> 00:05:54.957
what does that mean to be the church?
00:05:55.790 --> 00:05:59.666
The way we think about the church, our practice of being the church.
00:05:59.666 --> 00:06:03.776
So it's just, that's really its most simple definition, I think,
00:06:03.776 --> 00:06:09.320
is who we are as the church in how we're embodying that church community.
00:06:10.081 --> 00:06:14.916
And so maybe can you give me some examples of some different ecclesiologies
00:06:14.916 --> 00:06:18.435
or different ways of thinking about ecclesiology that would then shape our practice?
00:06:18.870 --> 00:06:23.616
One might be the church's job is to teach people, and then we shape our practice
00:06:23.616 --> 00:06:31.126
around learning or education or preaching or Sunday school, that kind of thing.
00:06:31.486 --> 00:06:32.921
Is that how you're understanding? Yeah.
00:06:33.589 --> 00:06:38.546
Yes. Yes. And I think that the one thing I want to say is that it's not that
00:06:38.546 --> 00:06:41.367
I'm saying there's better ways to do things.
00:06:42.466 --> 00:06:46.976
I think there's different ways. And I think often what I'm seeing is that we've
00:06:46.976 --> 00:06:50.011
just made assumptions about what it means to be the church.
00:06:50.284 --> 00:06:54.636
And so that example of that teaching, maybe we've made the assumption that being
00:06:54.636 --> 00:06:57.029
the church is about teaching faith.
00:06:57.668 --> 00:07:02.646
And so when it comes to kids or young people, they're at a different place.
00:07:03.166 --> 00:07:09.260
They don't know as much about what it means to be a follower of Jesus or what it means to have faith.
00:07:09.527 --> 00:07:13.689
And so we teach them. And so we structure Sunday schools. We put them in age
00:07:13.962 --> 00:07:19.320
segregated places where they can be at the same kind of level of learning,
00:07:19.593 --> 00:07:22.710
and that's how we do things. So we teach faith.
00:07:23.447 --> 00:07:30.106
Not necessarily a bad thing, but that's not what it means to be the church and participate fully.
00:07:30.606 --> 00:07:34.496
I think that's what it comes down to, is what does it mean to participate,
00:07:34.496 --> 00:07:41.806
to belong, to be a part of God's family, to be a part of this wider church community,
00:07:41.806 --> 00:07:44.874
not just learn about God or learn about faith.
00:07:45.776 --> 00:07:51.137
Okay. So tell me more about participation, because I think we're saying it's
00:07:51.137 --> 00:07:54.817
not just about learning, but it's actually about participating,
00:07:54.817 --> 00:07:58.687
doing, being engaged, having a role, perhaps.
00:07:58.687 --> 00:08:01.857
What's the difference between sort of welcoming children in your church and
00:08:01.857 --> 00:08:05.397
then the children participating? And how would I know if in my church they're
00:08:05.397 --> 00:08:07.676
actually participating versus just there?
00:08:08.164 --> 00:08:13.657
Yeah, I think that's a really good question. And I want to be careful not to
00:08:13.657 --> 00:08:17.997
critique churches that are trying different ways of having children participate.
00:08:17.997 --> 00:08:21.487
I don't want to come across and say, well, that's good, but actually it's still
00:08:21.487 --> 00:08:26.867
not good enough. But I do think that this is something we have to look at,
00:08:26.867 --> 00:08:28.817
and this is where—so this is,
00:08:29.377 --> 00:08:32.580
why I started with the question of we need a better theology of the child.
00:08:33.607 --> 00:08:38.937
If we go back to that, if we believe, for example, that children bear the image
00:08:38.937 --> 00:08:40.867
of God, if we believe that,
00:08:41.347 --> 00:08:44.897
the Holy Spirit is active in them, and the children's spirituality movement
00:08:44.897 --> 00:08:48.265
would say that children are spiritual right from the beginning,
00:08:48.625 --> 00:08:54.980
participation then means they can participate in who they are at the age that they are, not,
00:08:55.771 --> 00:09:02.656
in the way that we say as adults they should participate. And so that's something, too, that I think,
00:09:03.659 --> 00:09:09.442
for me, the intergenerational experiences of church can sometimes still miss
00:09:09.756 --> 00:09:15.679
allowing everyone to participate fully in who they are, because we still structure
00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.139
what that participation looks like.
00:09:18.139 --> 00:09:22.469
So, you know, a child participating, well, what does it mean for a child to
00:09:22.469 --> 00:09:24.132
bring forward their prayers?
00:09:24.312 --> 00:09:28.169
Obviously, there's a place we have to teach as well. We teach what it means
00:09:28.169 --> 00:09:31.371
to offer a prayer to God. There's different ways to do that.
00:09:31.783 --> 00:09:37.799
But is there opportunity for people to come forward and participate in connecting
00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:44.687
with God in who they are at the age that they are or where they are in their faith journey?
00:09:45.233 --> 00:09:49.359
Can they bring those offerings to the community, to the worshiping community?
00:09:49.359 --> 00:09:53.529
So I was recently doing a podcast about friendship and we talked about one of
00:09:53.529 --> 00:09:57.419
the values of friendship is about equality and mutuality, that.
00:09:58.594 --> 00:10:02.909
There is not a power dynamic that is different, where one person has way more
00:10:02.909 --> 00:10:04.523
power and the other person has less.
00:10:04.872 --> 00:10:08.894
Or there's not one person who's the helper and the other person's the receiver
00:10:09.057 --> 00:10:12.958
that actually helps and is given and received.
00:10:13.959 --> 00:10:17.341
That power, it can't ever be perfectly level, but that power,
00:10:17.712 --> 00:10:22.719
those who have maybe structurally or through age or money or whatever else who
00:10:22.719 --> 00:10:26.639
may have more power make themselves vulnerable or humble themselves to level
00:10:26.639 --> 00:10:28.426
it, to allow real friendship to grow.
00:10:28.960 --> 00:10:34.269
And I think there's a lot of overlap into intergenerational ministry there in
00:10:34.269 --> 00:10:38.468
order for intergenerational worship, ministry,
00:10:39.404 --> 00:10:45.714
you know, church life to grow, there needs to be some equality, some mutuality.
00:10:46.271 --> 00:10:50.223
And churches tend to be a bit more hierarchical.
00:10:50.432 --> 00:10:54.503
They tend to have the church leader or the adults or the key volunteers or the
00:10:54.503 --> 00:10:58.013
whoever, they're the people who know and they lead everything and everybody
00:10:58.013 --> 00:11:01.843
else is on the receiving end and they are helped or they are led.
00:11:01.843 --> 00:11:06.973
Sometimes you can help by serving, but you never quite get to the level that
00:11:06.973 --> 00:11:12.549
the church leader is at, who is somehow above. There is just this sense of hierarchy.
00:11:12.932 --> 00:11:16.703
And whether we actually structure it that way and think of it that way,
00:11:16.703 --> 00:11:21.293
or whether that's how it works in practice, perhaps there is an assumed theology
00:11:21.293 --> 00:11:24.123
of the church, again, that there's a hierarchy in this.
00:11:24.123 --> 00:11:27.703
So I wonder if you could just speak to maybe part of the problem that we've
00:11:27.703 --> 00:11:30.357
got is that we have a great theology of the child,
00:11:30.891 --> 00:11:35.181
but our structures or our picture of the church has a hierarchy innate in it
00:11:35.309 --> 00:11:40.237
which means that they can never fully give or the adults really don't.
00:11:41.195 --> 00:11:47.874
Receive from them in the same way yes yeah it feels either token or isn't that cute,
00:11:48.565 --> 00:11:54.603
yes yes and so they participate and they get up and they lead a song or they
00:11:54.603 --> 00:11:58.493
pray from the front and they do the bible reading or there's a presentation
00:11:58.493 --> 00:12:02.015
or even a drama or puppets or all of these things and children young people do it,
00:12:02.654 --> 00:12:06.677
but it's very performative and it can minister to people and it can,
00:12:07.489 --> 00:12:12.852
it can have impact but it doesn't somehow it doesn't always feel equal and mutual and I don't know how.
00:12:13.722 --> 00:12:18.225
How we get to that. Because in another church, the same thing could happen and
00:12:18.225 --> 00:12:21.585
it would feel somehow mutual and people would receive it differently.
00:12:21.585 --> 00:12:25.845
So to me, it's very hard. You can't just say, well, you need to do more dramas.
00:12:25.845 --> 00:12:29.555
You need to have more children reading Bible verses. You can't tell people what to do.
00:12:30.015 --> 00:12:34.382
That doing of it doesn't change how it is received necessarily.
00:12:34.667 --> 00:12:39.405
So I think there's something underneath all of that, a theology of how church
00:12:39.405 --> 00:12:43.495
is structured or how we receive from other people in church that needs examining
00:12:43.495 --> 00:12:46.275
and challenging perhaps for intergenerational to really flow.
00:12:47.037 --> 00:12:51.795
Yeah, yeah, I would agree with all of that. And actually, in one of my interviews,
00:12:52.135 --> 00:12:54.715
one of the pastors raised something.
00:12:54.715 --> 00:12:59.015
This is a pastor who is on a journey learning about intergenerational.
00:12:59.875 --> 00:13:05.039
Trying out things and trying to move the congregation in ways that are more
00:13:05.271 --> 00:13:09.038
mutual, as you speak of, like not this performative base.
00:13:09.236 --> 00:13:11.766
They've had excellent children's and youth ministries.
00:13:12.010 --> 00:13:15.511
They've had those performances, those ways that kids get involved.
00:13:15.894 --> 00:13:20.925
But this pastor is trying to move this congregation in a different way as a community.
00:13:20.925 --> 00:13:25.275
And what they kind of offered in their response that I'm still,
00:13:25.739 --> 00:13:30.215
looking at and reflecting on, so I don't have a lot of kind of positions or
00:13:30.215 --> 00:13:33.947
thoughts on it, but this pastor raised Trinitarian theology,
00:13:34.069 --> 00:13:37.483
which was the first time I had heard this kind of be expressed.
00:13:37.808 --> 00:13:42.996
But just saying that this pastor's thinking was, or wondering was,
00:13:43.615 --> 00:13:50.185
the problem that we have, the underlying kind of theology is that we don't actually
00:13:50.185 --> 00:13:52.812
understand or have a good theology of the Trinity.
00:13:53.085 --> 00:13:58.153
We don't have that understanding of the Trinity as this mutual relationship.
00:13:58.665 --> 00:14:06.171
We almost default a hierarchy in the Trinity. And so then that then gets enacted in how we do church.
00:14:06.583 --> 00:14:11.744
And so if we see the Trinity as hierarchical, then it's almost like,
00:14:11.744 --> 00:14:18.064
well, then that's why kids are seen as they need to be taught more or led more because.
00:14:19.244 --> 00:14:22.506
We see Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as a hierarchy.
00:14:22.808 --> 00:14:29.646
Whether we articulate it or not, That's kind of the assumption we kind of bring into church life.
00:14:29.988 --> 00:14:34.302
We have men, women, children. This is what the pastor was expressing.
00:14:34.458 --> 00:14:40.524
That could lead to why we think of things in that way, and we assign value or
00:14:40.524 --> 00:14:42.984
roles to people that way.
00:14:42.984 --> 00:14:46.064
And so that's something that's really got me thinking about what does it mean
00:14:46.064 --> 00:14:50.704
that the Trinity, if we understand the Trinity as God, three in one,
00:14:50.704 --> 00:14:54.544
mutual, but different, there's different ways, like
00:14:54.984 --> 00:15:00.604
obviously the Son is different from the Father, who's different from the Holy Spirit, but one.
00:15:01.044 --> 00:15:05.724
So this is a lot that I'm still kind of thinking through, but it certainly got
00:15:05.724 --> 00:15:12.384
me thinking about how does that underlying theology then, how do we wrestle
00:15:12.384 --> 00:15:15.442
with that? And how does that then influence theology?
00:15:16.358 --> 00:15:22.215
How we are as the church and moving away from this hierarchical structure where
00:15:22.511 --> 00:15:26.862
children's participation means they do, they participate in the ways that we
00:15:26.862 --> 00:15:31.277
say they should participate or the ways that we teach them to participate.
00:15:31.602 --> 00:15:35.427
So we teach them how to get up and read scripture like an adult would.
00:15:35.984 --> 00:15:42.322
Well, what if a child's way of participating might be something different that they bring?
00:15:42.322 --> 00:15:46.702
What if they connect with God or they express their worship in a different way
00:15:46.702 --> 00:15:51.140
and they want to offer that and lead people in that way?
00:15:51.628 --> 00:15:57.352
What would that mean? What would that look like? But I do recognize the pushback
00:15:57.352 --> 00:16:01.912
on that is, well, then you have, what could worship be? It could be anything
00:16:01.912 --> 00:16:05.612
goes then. If kids are like youth, like we do have to learn.
00:16:05.798 --> 00:16:10.962
So I think it's not an easily answered question, but I do think it's something
00:16:10.962 --> 00:16:13.182
we have to wrestle more deeply with.
00:16:13.182 --> 00:16:19.172
And also, when it comes to being intergenerational, it is more than just saying,
00:16:19.172 --> 00:16:24.062
well, that means having dramas or ways that kids and youth and adults and seniors
00:16:24.062 --> 00:16:27.462
all participate in a structured kind of way.
00:16:28.342 --> 00:16:32.962
So, maybe, can you think of some examples where children have genuinely influenced
00:16:32.962 --> 00:16:35.682
a church's thinking, worship, or leadership.
00:16:36.169 --> 00:16:40.512
So turn the tables. It's often like the adults inviting children's participation,
00:16:40.512 --> 00:16:44.172
but as you say, then it's limited by the adult's imagination or the pathways
00:16:44.172 --> 00:16:46.009
we already have in our existing structures.
00:16:46.953 --> 00:16:50.391
Have you got examples where children have come forward and said,
00:16:50.391 --> 00:16:54.561
I want to do this, and it was released, or where they've influenced the thinking
00:16:54.561 --> 00:16:56.317
and the worship and the leadership in a different way?
00:16:57.047 --> 00:17:03.291
Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, one example that comes to my mind was in a church that
00:17:03.291 --> 00:17:07.589
I was part of, that I was a pastor at. We really valued prayer and prayer ministry.
00:17:08.041 --> 00:17:12.732
We had a prayer space during the worship services. Anyone could go back and receive prayer.
00:17:13.016 --> 00:17:17.391
And then after the service, you could go to the prayer space and be prayed for
00:17:17.391 --> 00:17:18.705
by one of our prayer teams.
00:17:19.111 --> 00:17:23.231
I do remember a time when there was someone in our church had recently been
00:17:23.231 --> 00:17:27.731
diagnosed with cancer, and she came for, she wanted to be prayed for.
00:17:27.731 --> 00:17:34.319
And this eight-year-old child went and surrounded, people were invited to pray around this woman.
00:17:34.621 --> 00:17:38.911
And this eight-year-old came and laid hands on her and prayed a beautiful prayer.
00:17:39.207 --> 00:17:44.021
She wasn't invited she wasn't there was no no instruction you can't who can
00:17:44.021 --> 00:17:48.621
do this who can't do this but the the culture of the community was
00:17:49.041 --> 00:17:53.691
was such that she felt like when there was an invitation for people to pray
00:17:54.016 --> 00:17:58.351
she belonged she was part of it she could participate and she could offer her
00:17:58.351 --> 00:18:00.053
prayers in the way that she prayed
00:18:00.459 --> 00:18:04.064
which was the words that she used to pray over this woman,
00:18:04.569 --> 00:18:07.901
and so I think that was meaningful for me and I thought that's.
00:18:08.692 --> 00:18:13.002
You can't structure that. It wasn't like someone said, anyone can come and pray,
00:18:13.002 --> 00:18:17.208
or kids come and pray and surround them, or whatever age you are, you can pray.
00:18:17.429 --> 00:18:21.912
It was just, this is what we do as part of our time together,
00:18:21.912 --> 00:18:26.647
and that child felt led to go up and pray for that woman.
00:18:27.199 --> 00:18:31.933
So that was something that it's hard to kind of put a structure on it,
00:18:32.293 --> 00:18:37.982
but it was because of the way we were as the church and the way that participation
00:18:37.982 --> 00:18:41.024
meant you could participate.
00:18:41.703 --> 00:18:44.002
Where you wanted to participate.
00:18:44.600 --> 00:18:50.212
And then I think of other examples of kids kind of coming forward and expressing
00:18:50.212 --> 00:18:56.413
their worship through dance or through bringing up little tambourines or different things like that.
00:18:56.703 --> 00:18:59.022
Again, that's just how they did it.
00:18:59.382 --> 00:19:02.812
We didn't say, okay, that's not right up in beat, or you can't do it,
00:19:02.812 --> 00:19:06.212
or you can't go over to this spot. We just let people express.
00:19:06.212 --> 00:19:07.722
And it wasn't just children who did that.
00:19:08.214 --> 00:19:15.569
All ages, actually, were welcome to express themselves. It wasn't the kids' kind of worship style.
00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:21.102
It was, this is some instruments, these are flags, these are ways you can worship.
00:19:21.775 --> 00:19:28.242
And so I think that there are different ways that are less structured.
00:19:28.242 --> 00:19:32.482
You know, I think even in worship services, we have a liturgy,
00:19:32.482 --> 00:19:37.418
whatever church tradition we come from, we have a way of doing a worship service.
00:19:38.836 --> 00:19:44.884
But to invite kids into that, to lead parts of it, it involves teaching them,
00:19:45.122 --> 00:19:49.022
but then where is the place for, if they're invited to lead a prayer,
00:19:49.022 --> 00:19:53.482
for example, in a congregational service, can they write their own prayer?
00:19:53.638 --> 00:19:58.592
Or do they need to memorize whatever an adult provides for them or read off
00:19:58.592 --> 00:20:05.173
of a sheet? Like there's there's that's some of what I think it looks like to invite more audience.
00:20:06.003 --> 00:20:11.373
More participation from people in the ways that they can offer their worship
00:20:11.738 --> 00:20:12.999
or in the life of the church.
00:20:13.579 --> 00:20:16.659
Worship service is just one aspect of the life of the church.
00:20:16.659 --> 00:20:21.399
So I wonder if, I feel like what we're asking is, the question isn't really
00:20:21.399 --> 00:20:24.956
about how do we do intergenerational, how do we do.
00:20:25.825 --> 00:20:31.932
Even participation better. The question is more around what assumptions do we
00:20:31.932 --> 00:20:36.652
have about church that has become the framework that we use.
00:20:36.652 --> 00:20:40.282
And goodness me, we so need a framework. Doing something every week or more
00:20:40.282 --> 00:20:43.667
than once a week, if you didn't have a framework, you'd spend your entire life
00:20:43.800 --> 00:20:47.282
planning and creating and creating new iterations.
00:20:47.282 --> 00:20:50.072
And it would be stressful. People wouldn't know what to expect.
00:20:50.072 --> 00:20:53.962
You can create more participation by having a framework so there's no nothing
00:20:53.962 --> 00:20:57.193
in me saying don't use a framework don't have a structure in your church,
00:20:57.820 --> 00:21:01.362
liturgy makes us all feel kind of safe like this this is the order you know
00:21:01.362 --> 00:21:04.037
whether your church does three hymns and a sermon and.
00:21:04.882 --> 00:21:08.612
Then everybody sits i want to pause on that for a minute because i just part
00:21:08.612 --> 00:21:10.282
of my research is also to do,
00:21:10.782 --> 00:21:15.392
focus groups with children and ask them questions and i just did one a couple
00:21:15.392 --> 00:21:19.774
weeks ago where a child actually that was their response which was
00:21:20.064 --> 00:21:24.942
it was fascinating to listen this child said they were explaining the structure
00:21:24.942 --> 00:21:29.276
we sing these two songs we do this prayer and then i know that this is my time
00:21:29.606 --> 00:21:35.162
to go and talked about how they liked that there was this pattern that helped them to know
00:21:35.582 --> 00:21:39.932
how how to worship and how much that was meaningful and that was unprompted
00:21:39.932 --> 00:21:45.512
that just came out in they were talking i asked them about church and how they feel like they belong
00:21:45.913 --> 00:21:48.962
and that came out so i think you're right that kind in a liturgy,
00:21:48.962 --> 00:21:52.554
that format is important for people and for kids as well,
00:21:53.221 --> 00:21:57.198
to have that safety of like knowing, okay, I can know to expect.
00:21:57.610 --> 00:22:00.692
This is what it means. This is where I get to offer something.
00:22:01.110 --> 00:22:07.312
And so that's not necessarily a bad thing then for kids to know that this is
00:22:07.312 --> 00:22:09.342
their place to go forward.
00:22:10.092 --> 00:22:13.709
And I suppose the question we're getting to is the idea of.
00:22:14.802 --> 00:22:22.484
Not doing church, but being church. And in doing church, you go somewhere and things happen.
00:22:23.415 --> 00:22:28.024
And maybe you participate in that you follow along or you sing or you read along
00:22:28.024 --> 00:22:33.774
the words with some prayers that have been written or you know when to sit down and stand up.
00:22:33.774 --> 00:22:39.054
And it could be the exact same service, but you feel like somehow my prayer is now an offering.
00:22:39.054 --> 00:22:43.414
Somehow my participation matters to the person standing next to me now that
00:22:43.414 --> 00:22:49.276
could all just be in the orientation that you have to church it's not in,
00:22:49.879 --> 00:22:53.674
however creative or wacky or how many crafts you have or whether you have it
00:22:53.674 --> 00:22:58.604
around tables like it's actually about your orientation to the service do I
00:22:58.604 --> 00:23:00.880
feel like my being here matters,
00:23:01.414 --> 00:23:06.128
that that's my worship is added to the worship that is happening here.
00:23:06.453 --> 00:23:12.464
If I don't sing, if I'm not here, if I don't pass the piece or greet the person
00:23:12.464 --> 00:23:16.124
next to me or whatever it is in your tradition that you do, if I'm not here,
00:23:16.124 --> 00:23:19.189
it matters. I think that's what's fundamentally part of belonging.
00:23:20.156 --> 00:23:23.634
But also that my voice matters. Like if I want to contribute something that's
00:23:23.634 --> 00:23:29.205
a bit different, somebody will hear me and listen to me and value my contribution.
00:23:29.865 --> 00:23:36.725
How do we keep that idea of being church and contributing as core and central,
00:23:37.395 --> 00:23:40.460
when it's so easy to default to doing church?
00:23:41.216 --> 00:23:45.874
Yeah, and that's a great question. And I think that's the one I'm really wrestling
00:23:45.874 --> 00:23:49.273
with as well in my research is because,
00:23:49.981 --> 00:23:53.814
What happens when it's not working, what we're doing, or when families stop
00:23:53.814 --> 00:23:59.274
coming, or kids are not interested in being there, or whatever it might be?
00:23:59.714 --> 00:24:04.724
This is back where theology matters. So we have to go back to our theology,
00:24:04.724 --> 00:24:09.354
our assumptions, but then think through, okay,
00:24:09.914 --> 00:24:15.844
let's actually take some time to discern through, does our practice reflect what we believe?
00:24:15.844 --> 00:24:18.377
And what I've seen is that that's the gap.
00:24:18.935 --> 00:24:22.964
So at the beginning, I said I went into my research assuming pastors didn't
00:24:22.964 --> 00:24:27.462
have a well-articulated theology of the child. But they do.
00:24:27.944 --> 00:24:32.174
But then to ask more questions, what I continued to hear was,
00:24:32.174 --> 00:24:36.264
but we just don't know how we could do this better. How do we include kids?
00:24:36.264 --> 00:24:40.114
I kept pushing questions on more, like, what does that mean beyond just the
00:24:40.114 --> 00:24:42.602
programmed piece that you've set?
00:24:43.153 --> 00:24:45.744
And they couldn't answer. And they're like, well, I actually don't know.
00:24:45.744 --> 00:24:50.784
And that, for me, is where we have to get to, is we have to go back then and
00:24:50.784 --> 00:24:53.954
look at, okay, let's think through.
00:24:53.954 --> 00:24:59.308
And so I came up with a way to, kind of a tool to kind of process, to discern this.
00:25:00.894 --> 00:25:07.604
If this is what we believe about a child, for example, then looking at the practice, does that match?
00:25:07.807 --> 00:25:09.647
What's the gap area in there?
00:25:10.354 --> 00:25:13.461
If this is what we're doing, this is how we're doing church,
00:25:13.966 --> 00:25:18.353
what does that say about what we actually believe about children?
00:25:18.818 --> 00:25:22.952
So if we took the example of children are made in the image of God,
00:25:23.179 --> 00:25:26.348
they can fully participate in worship as they are.
00:25:26.853 --> 00:25:32.234
But then we look at our practice, which is kids only participate in this way
00:25:32.234 --> 00:25:38.225
by coming forward to be prayed and sent out to children's church or Sunday school or whatever.
00:25:38.858 --> 00:25:42.358
Does that practice match what we say?
00:25:42.805 --> 00:25:47.118
What would it mean, then, if our theology—.
00:25:47.930 --> 00:25:52.568
Kind of was reflected in our practice? What would we need to change in our practice then?
00:25:53.276 --> 00:25:57.480
Kids going out to a kid's church or a Sunday school or a learning space is not
00:25:57.480 --> 00:26:01.775
necessarily bad because they need to learn things about faith.
00:26:02.193 --> 00:26:09.170
But is the timing of it, like, is the way we do it, what does that say about them?
00:26:09.550 --> 00:26:13.181
Do they fully belong to the worshiping community or the body?
00:26:13.715 --> 00:26:18.330
Is the way we're structuring church one of efficiency and convenience,
00:26:18.794 --> 00:26:23.444
or is it reflecting what we believe about who we are as the church?
00:26:24.100 --> 00:26:31.042
And so I think that's part of it, is we have to go back and kind of think through
00:26:31.286 --> 00:26:34.760
how we're doing church, and then what we believe about church,
00:26:34.760 --> 00:26:36.620
and then look at that reflected there.
00:26:36.620 --> 00:26:40.550
Or is there a gap there between what we believe and say about what it means
00:26:40.550 --> 00:26:46.832
to be the church versus how we do church. Yes, there's a lot to chew on there.
00:26:47.053 --> 00:26:51.319
And I think on the surface, it might look like, oh, we've got success now.
00:26:51.592 --> 00:26:56.220
We're keeping families. They're coming. And so we focus on the fruit of,
00:26:56.220 --> 00:27:00.567
well, people are showing up and they're engaging different ages.
00:27:01.246 --> 00:27:06.110
It's not a bad thing, but it's not going to be lasting because it's not rooted
00:27:06.110 --> 00:27:09.160
in who we are as the church.
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:13.710
It's not rooted in a theology that's deeper than just what's happening,
00:27:14.130 --> 00:27:16.150
the way you're structuring things.
00:27:16.150 --> 00:27:21.143
So there might be success for a while, but are you really intergenerational
00:27:21.462 --> 00:27:24.730
or are you just doing intergenerational things right now?
00:27:24.910 --> 00:27:29.730
So you're saying there are activities, resources, probably even curriculum.
00:27:29.730 --> 00:27:34.990
There are things that you can do as a leader and facilitate that allow people
00:27:34.990 --> 00:27:38.420
to talk to each other, build relationship, hear from each other,
00:27:38.420 --> 00:27:41.832
receive from each other, participate, have more voices heard.
00:27:42.927 --> 00:27:46.464
You do kind of need to do those. Yes, yes. Otherwise, it's very,
00:27:46.464 --> 00:27:52.720
very hard to build relationships across generations and hear other voices and allow participation.
00:27:53.604 --> 00:27:58.424
But you could do the activities and it not fundamentally change your theology,
00:27:58.424 --> 00:28:02.264
and then you would just revert back to the way you did things before.
00:28:02.264 --> 00:28:05.650
That was nice. That was novel. We do that once a month in our all-age service.
00:28:06.072 --> 00:28:11.414
But really, it's better when we do this, because then I meet with God. And,
00:28:14.264 --> 00:28:21.114
that back and forth that we do, to me, reveals the underlying experience that
00:28:21.114 --> 00:28:27.454
our theology at the root is one of doing church rather than being church.
00:28:28.453 --> 00:28:32.854
How can we check ourselves as church leaders to make sure that we've not just
00:28:32.854 --> 00:28:39.124
fallen into a pattern and a structure and have forgotten about being rather than doing?
00:28:39.124 --> 00:28:41.964
And I guess the other question I've got is, so it's like, how do we as church
00:28:41.964 --> 00:28:44.900
leaders keep that front and center?
00:28:45.457 --> 00:28:49.890
But how do we also help our congregation to keep asking that question?
00:28:50.401 --> 00:28:54.074
Because if just the church leader is centered on that, I don't think it will
00:28:54.074 --> 00:28:57.210
work. We need everybody to know that it matters when I turn up.
00:28:57.663 --> 00:29:00.984
I can't just be passive in church. I need to connect. I need to engage.
00:29:00.984 --> 00:29:05.965
I need to give my contribution. So it has to be a theology that we all hold.
00:29:06.647 --> 00:29:11.204
Yes, yes, that's right. And it's not easy. I think that's the challenge because
00:29:11.204 --> 00:29:18.144
we're really working against a culture of individuality, a culture of consumerism,
00:29:18.144 --> 00:29:21.560
a culture of busyness. So we only have so much time to give.
00:29:21.821 --> 00:29:25.084
So I want to go to the church that's going to be the way that I want to have
00:29:25.084 --> 00:29:26.720
church. It's a challenge.
00:29:27.244 --> 00:29:33.221
But I think we have to keep in the struggle. For me, the passage in Corinthians,
00:29:33.221 --> 00:29:39.585
the body passage that Paul writes about, is my powerful vision for intergenerationality.
00:29:39.742 --> 00:29:43.361
Do we really, like you said, if I'm not there, am I even noticed?
00:29:43.361 --> 00:29:48.141
Am I missed? Is my contribution missed? That's what Paul gives us in Scripture,
00:29:48.141 --> 00:29:52.809
is that picture of the body that we're not all the same. We're not all one part.
00:29:53.181 --> 00:29:56.838
But if one part's suffering, we all suffer.
00:29:57.111 --> 00:30:02.141
Does my church community really suffer when I'm not there for months and months
00:30:02.141 --> 00:30:08.251
at a time? Or do they notice? And I think that's the question everybody is asking in some way.
00:30:08.671 --> 00:30:12.422
Does it matter if I'm at church or not? And I think in a lot of our churches,
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:14.442
it actually probably doesn't matter.
00:30:14.790 --> 00:30:18.541
So even if you show up for the intergenerational service and they do it once
00:30:18.541 --> 00:30:21.333
a month and you're there and everyone's relating and kidding.
00:30:21.710 --> 00:30:25.451
Well, the other three weeks of the month, if nobody reaches out and says,
00:30:25.451 --> 00:30:28.601
hey, I didn't see you at church last week, like, is everything okay?
00:30:28.601 --> 00:30:33.181
Are you doing well? Or when someone comes to express that, oh,
00:30:33.181 --> 00:30:37.391
it's so, worship is so much richer because you're here and you're contributing
00:30:37.391 --> 00:30:41.471
and in the ways that you can offer your worship or,
00:30:42.111 --> 00:30:44.100
your presence in community.
00:30:44.771 --> 00:30:49.661
I think that is something that we have to keep struggling and keep bringing
00:30:49.661 --> 00:30:55.271
before us and keep that vision before us as God's people.
00:30:55.271 --> 00:31:01.154
Because it is so easy to just get into a comfortable, like, well, this is how we do church.
00:31:01.304 --> 00:31:06.271
Yep, it is. But also, how do we continue to be God's people to one another and
00:31:06.271 --> 00:31:07.881
to the community around us?
00:31:07.881 --> 00:31:12.421
And how do we keep reminding ourselves and challenging ourselves?
00:31:12.421 --> 00:31:17.471
And what does it look like to be uncomfortable, but to be together as God's
00:31:17.471 --> 00:31:23.903
people and to learn and struggle together and to know that this is the community
00:31:24.037 --> 00:31:27.331
that will suffer when you're suffering and that you can come,
00:31:27.831 --> 00:31:30.179
and bring and lean on for strength.
00:31:30.701 --> 00:31:34.948
Or the community that, you know, when you're doing well, someone else can come
00:31:34.948 --> 00:31:37.448
and receive that strength of faith.
00:31:37.448 --> 00:31:41.428
And that's where I love intergenerationality for young people,
00:31:41.428 --> 00:31:44.877
for kids and for teenagers, especially in young adults, is.
00:31:45.728 --> 00:31:50.028
When they have relationship with older adults who have lived 30,
00:31:50.028 --> 00:31:53.410
40, 50 years, faithful lives following Jesus.
00:31:53.898 --> 00:31:59.528
They need that because they need to see what it looks like, what it means to
00:31:59.528 --> 00:32:03.295
continue to follow Jesus even when so many hard things are happening.
00:32:03.968 --> 00:32:08.322
That's why we need to be intergenerational, because we need to see that.
00:32:09.044 --> 00:32:13.378
And it doesn't have to be an age thing. The new Christian who comes to faith
00:32:13.378 --> 00:32:18.788
at 45 needs to see what it means now to live their life as a faithful follower.
00:32:18.788 --> 00:32:23.868
And they need to see people who've lived lives into their 70s and 80s and how
00:32:23.868 --> 00:32:27.469
they can continue to live that life of faith.
00:32:28.163 --> 00:32:32.758
Yeah. And it goes the other way. The joy, the first answered prayers,
00:32:32.758 --> 00:32:37.448
the first time somebody, I don't know, sings or shares or preaches or something
00:32:37.448 --> 00:32:39.094
like that, the energy that.
00:32:39.845 --> 00:32:43.385
Flows from children and young people as they participate and discover things.
00:32:43.565 --> 00:32:48.030
We need to be reminded of. We need it. But it energizes the rest of us, doesn't it?
00:32:48.170 --> 00:32:52.585
Yeah. And that excitement of discovering something in Scripture for the first
00:32:52.585 --> 00:32:55.015
time or that sort of thing.
00:32:55.015 --> 00:32:59.455
Yeah. Or seeing Scripture in a new way that, you know, I love when I go,
00:32:59.455 --> 00:33:03.625
I've gone to churches now because I'm not a pastor of one church.
00:33:03.625 --> 00:33:05.246
I get to go into lots of churches.
00:33:05.607 --> 00:33:09.579
And I love when I invited to preach an intergenerational service, and
00:33:09.909 --> 00:33:14.865
I had one last year where this older man came up to me after the service and
00:33:14.865 --> 00:33:19.125
told me all these—because I invited questions and invited us to wander through
00:33:19.125 --> 00:33:24.253
a passage, he came up and shared all these things he's thought about and wondered about since he was a kid
00:33:24.579 --> 00:33:26.623
about this passage and about how things work.
00:33:26.896 --> 00:33:30.117
And it was so delightful to hear that.
00:33:30.454 --> 00:33:36.465
But imagine if he had been allowed as a child to raise those wonderings and
00:33:36.465 --> 00:33:43.205
those questions when he was a kid and what that would have done for the community there.
00:33:43.205 --> 00:33:48.575
And so, yes, I think that we need to allow the expression of the young and the
00:33:48.575 --> 00:33:53.225
new and the new discoveries and the energy that young people can bring.
00:33:53.225 --> 00:33:58.365
And we need the faithfulness and the stories of those who are older in their
00:33:58.365 --> 00:34:01.007
journey or further along in their journey of faith. Yeah.
00:34:01.838 --> 00:34:05.164
I want to touch on intercultural church.
00:34:05.630 --> 00:34:10.979
So your setting in Canada, there are quite a lot of Chinese Baptist churches,
00:34:10.979 --> 00:34:15.346
often worshipping in Mandarin or Cantonese in an English service.
00:34:15.783 --> 00:34:19.559
And then you've got parents who've immigrated or maybe even grandparents at this point.
00:34:19.768 --> 00:34:25.049
Then you have children and grandchildren who, again, how much Chinese they speak,
00:34:25.049 --> 00:34:28.790
how much English they speak, whether they feel Canadian, whether they feel Chinese.
00:34:29.301 --> 00:34:34.349
There's all sorts of layers of cultural belonging and then on top of that doing
00:34:34.349 --> 00:34:38.609
church I feel like there's an extra layer of challenge with intergenerational
00:34:38.609 --> 00:34:42.180
when the different generations speak different languages yes,
00:34:42.897 --> 00:34:46.639
so I know with at the conference we were both at in Toronto they were talking
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:50.969
about this very real challenge of some of the older people really only speak
00:34:50.969 --> 00:34:54.389
one language and they're actually in a different service because of translation
00:34:54.389 --> 00:34:56.803
and things like that. How do we bring those people together?
00:34:57.849 --> 00:35:01.261
And then the cultural differences, the longer you've been living in Canada,
00:35:01.523 --> 00:35:03.729
the maybe more Western your worldview is.
00:35:04.280 --> 00:35:07.757
Can you just speak to your experience of,
00:35:08.622 --> 00:35:13.195
the intersection of intercultural and intergenerational and maybe where it's
00:35:13.195 --> 00:35:17.910
working rather than we can we can all imagine the challenges of like oh gosh that's,
00:35:18.438 --> 00:35:22.785
I thought I had it hard now you've made that you've factor of 100 you know to
00:35:22.785 --> 00:35:24.255
make it more complicated but
00:35:24.255 --> 00:35:27.732
where is it working and where is it bringing life that we wouldn't expect,
00:35:28.458 --> 00:35:34.755
yeah yeah I think it is working in places where they've realized that language
00:35:34.755 --> 00:35:36.855
doesn't have to be the dividing point,
00:35:37.723 --> 00:35:40.544
where there's been recognition that.
00:35:41.775 --> 00:35:48.885
We can find a new way to worship together that creates space regardless of the
00:35:48.885 --> 00:35:50.355
language that you speak.
00:35:50.355 --> 00:35:54.881
I think, again, finding those ways where you can connect relationally,
00:35:55.096 --> 00:35:58.795
where you can serve together. There's churches that I'm seeing that are finding
00:35:58.795 --> 00:36:02.585
ways to do that, even if they can't speak the same language.
00:36:02.585 --> 00:36:05.162
You don't have to be divided because of your language.
00:36:05.823 --> 00:36:10.355
It's not easy, and obviously there's spaces where it's helpful,
00:36:10.355 --> 00:36:11.915
where you can understand.
00:36:11.915 --> 00:36:17.465
Again, in a teaching setting, that's helpful that you can understand what you're being taught.
00:36:17.465 --> 00:36:21.475
So having different language opportunities is not the problem,
00:36:21.475 --> 00:36:25.435
but I think there is a place as a church to say that, you know,
00:36:25.435 --> 00:36:29.675
age doesn't divide us, language doesn't divide us, we're worshipping the same God.
00:36:29.675 --> 00:36:34.595
So what does it look like for our community of different languages that are
00:36:34.595 --> 00:36:36.755
spoken to worship together?
00:36:37.115 --> 00:36:42.125
What does it mean for us to have relationship if we can't actually speak fully
00:36:42.125 --> 00:36:46.207
the same language in a way that we both understand each other?
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:50.655
And so I think where I've seen it working so well is,
00:36:51.195 --> 00:36:55.170
those places where they've realized we can still serve alongside each other
00:36:55.419 --> 00:36:59.555
without talking verbally and still work together in mission,
00:36:59.555 --> 00:37:04.109
or we can celebrate and come around a fellowship table together.
00:37:04.782 --> 00:37:09.591
Together and have different languages spoken, but we can still actually listen.
00:37:10.361 --> 00:37:11.811
And celebrate with each other.
00:37:12.851 --> 00:37:17.681
Or we can come together in a worship service and express our worship in the
00:37:17.681 --> 00:37:22.111
language that we speak, but to do it together. So I think those are the ways,
00:37:22.964 --> 00:37:25.117
that I've seen it working beautifully.
00:37:25.303 --> 00:37:27.991
I think of the different things that are learned.
00:37:28.691 --> 00:37:32.311
In some communities with younger people who've been born in Canada,
00:37:32.311 --> 00:37:36.701
they're Chinese, but they've been born in Canada, You know, I think of times
00:37:36.701 --> 00:37:41.911
where I've seen those teens come to a place where they want to learn more about
00:37:41.911 --> 00:37:43.280
their cultural background.
00:37:43.576 --> 00:37:48.241
And so they're speaking English and they're talking or they're trying to learn
00:37:48.241 --> 00:37:52.731
and understand, but they're learning things. And so I think of the beauty of
00:37:52.731 --> 00:37:56.869
how that cultural kind of piece can be expressed.
00:37:57.711 --> 00:38:03.771
But I think what's happened is that if we don't recognize that beauty,
00:38:03.975 --> 00:38:08.931
what we end up doing is we allow the things like language to become bigger dividers.
00:38:08.931 --> 00:38:13.458
And we say, okay, because we speak a different language, we have to do everything separately.
00:38:13.748 --> 00:38:18.121
We have to do our worship services separately. We need to have our own Bible
00:38:18.121 --> 00:38:23.425
studies, fellowship groups, our own celebrations, because language is the most important thing.
00:38:24.046 --> 00:38:27.631
And so I think where I've seen it work well is where they've said language is
00:38:27.631 --> 00:38:29.044
not the most important thing.
00:38:29.300 --> 00:38:33.431
Being a family, being a community is the most important thing.
00:38:33.431 --> 00:38:36.870
And we'll figure out how to communicate without the same language.
00:38:37.652 --> 00:38:44.597
Yeah. Wow. And here's the thing. It's never quite as neatly divided.
00:38:44.597 --> 00:38:47.796
There will be people who speak both languages. There will be people who can translate.
00:38:48.162 --> 00:38:51.517
There will be children who understand but can't really say it.
00:38:51.976 --> 00:38:55.177
There's a lot of blurred edges, isn't there?
00:38:55.177 --> 00:38:58.677
And that's the same with intergenerational. There are people who can translate.
00:38:58.677 --> 00:39:05.567
There are people who can step in the gap, who can introduce people, who can help us connect.
00:39:05.567 --> 00:39:11.225
And as you say it's like what what have we made the main thing and if church is about,
00:39:11.933 --> 00:39:14.917
primarily about teaching then language does become a main thing,
00:39:15.552 --> 00:39:20.184
and probably age and stage becomes a thing because we have well this is how you would learn,
00:39:20.655 --> 00:39:24.857
but if that isn't the main thing and that's the question that underlines this
00:39:24.857 --> 00:39:28.947
what does it mean to be church is worshiping the main thing is connecting with
00:39:28.947 --> 00:39:33.147
each other and serving our community is communion the main thing like,
00:39:33.611 --> 00:39:36.026
yeah there's a lot of questions for churches to wrestle with,
00:39:36.676 --> 00:39:38.967
yeah yeah hmm.
00:39:40.038 --> 00:39:44.028
Um I want I want to touch on again like,
00:39:44.899 --> 00:39:49.277
we said that question of when it's not working then we start trying new things
00:39:49.277 --> 00:39:51.917
don't we usually out of desperation and that's when we start,
00:39:52.632 --> 00:39:58.177
questioning usually our methods but not usually our theology yes it's not working
00:39:58.177 --> 00:40:01.038
let's change our methods because our theology you can't possibly be wrong.
00:40:02.799 --> 00:40:06.537
If someone's listening to this and they're like, oh, I'd like to try intergenerational,
00:40:06.537 --> 00:40:10.937
but, or they're thinking we've been doing intergenerational and it's not working,
00:40:10.937 --> 00:40:14.531
or we're doing what we normally do and it's not working.
00:40:15.235 --> 00:40:18.477
Instead of going, well, let's pick up the latest issue of Roots and try and
00:40:18.477 --> 00:40:22.184
do intergenerational, or let's pick up a new curriculum for this.
00:40:23.008 --> 00:40:27.867
What are some helpful questions that you would think would be good to sit with,
00:40:27.867 --> 00:40:34.131
you know, to go with God, sit with your leadership team to pray into that help you unpick.
00:40:34.983 --> 00:40:38.646
Like, what's underneath all this? What's my theology? What does God want to say?
00:40:39.315 --> 00:40:44.865
Yeah, yeah. I think that is what's really important. Whether something's working
00:40:44.865 --> 00:40:48.115
or not, I think we need to do this. But especially when it's not working,
00:40:48.115 --> 00:40:50.531
naming what is it that's not working?
00:40:50.907 --> 00:40:56.515
So what is happening in this practice? So what are you doing that is not working,
00:40:56.515 --> 00:41:01.435
that you want to examine, or what is it that's being experienced?
00:41:01.435 --> 00:41:05.635
And then to say, to look at what are the assumptions that are shaping this?
00:41:05.635 --> 00:41:12.206
What is the theology behind this? Like, what are we assuming will happen in this practice?
00:41:12.863 --> 00:41:19.525
What do we believe about this? And then discern, do those assumptions match
00:41:19.525 --> 00:41:21.365
the practice or how you're doing it?
00:41:21.805 --> 00:41:27.903
And then to reimagine what might it look like if we addressed whatever gap might exist there.
00:41:28.414 --> 00:41:32.268
And so if you're doing intergenerational and it's not working,
00:41:32.847 --> 00:41:41.125
then my guess is there is something missing between your theology and your practice of how you're doing it.
00:41:41.125 --> 00:41:46.865
And it's not just the methodology, but it's what's actually shaping why you're doing that.
00:41:46.865 --> 00:41:52.685
And so, if you're doing intergenerational because you want to try and get all
00:41:52.685 --> 00:41:56.613
the ages back, you're trying to address this retention issue,
00:41:56.881 --> 00:41:59.057
bring people in, then...
00:41:59.747 --> 00:42:03.741
It's not going to work. It won't. Eventually, it won't work.
00:42:03.741 --> 00:42:08.576
And so, then you have to go back and say, okay, but what do I believe about people in this?
00:42:08.768 --> 00:42:12.471
What do I believe about children in the place of worship? What do I believe
00:42:12.471 --> 00:42:15.693
about teenagers or seniors or adults?
00:42:16.001 --> 00:42:20.241
So, I think that's what it is, is sitting with those questions of looking at
00:42:20.241 --> 00:42:22.444
what is the practice. So, just naming that.
00:42:22.589 --> 00:42:26.606
What are the assumptions? What do you believe about whatever it might be?
00:42:26.717 --> 00:42:29.581
If you're looking at your children's Sunday school, you know,
00:42:30.381 --> 00:42:35.342
what is the assumption about children? What is the theology of children that you have?
00:42:35.899 --> 00:42:40.261
What is your practice of Sunday school? Where does it match up or not match up?
00:42:41.251 --> 00:42:44.801
So then maybe that's how you figure out, okay, then we need to change our Sunday
00:42:44.801 --> 00:42:50.742
school. We really have to name what's going on and then name our theology, really think about it.
00:42:50.980 --> 00:42:55.721
You know, when I did a workshop on this and had people choose practices and
00:42:55.721 --> 00:42:57.031
then start to think about.
00:42:57.031 --> 00:43:01.301
And what I actually discovered and what I discover of myself is we don't actually
00:43:01.301 --> 00:43:05.901
spend the time to think through our theology, to think through our assumptions
00:43:05.901 --> 00:43:09.771
in something. We're just doing something, and we do it while it works.
00:43:10.137 --> 00:43:13.782
And then when it doesn't work, then we think, then let's do something different.
00:43:14.282 --> 00:43:16.534
But what we need to do is stop and say.
00:43:17.224 --> 00:43:23.082
Let's look at what we believe, what we're doing, and where's the disconnect there.
00:43:23.697 --> 00:43:26.985
So that's something I think we have to do better.
00:43:26.985 --> 00:43:30.255
And I would say even when something's working, we should be doing this.
00:43:30.255 --> 00:43:34.465
But it's easier to just, when we're having success, it's easier to just keep
00:43:34.465 --> 00:43:39.451
going with what's working. I think that's just a good ongoing kind of practice
00:43:39.839 --> 00:43:42.411
we should have in our communities of faith.
00:43:42.986 --> 00:43:47.995
What do we believe? What are we doing? Does it match up? Does it line up with
00:43:47.995 --> 00:43:52.785
what we're doing? And that's certainly what I found in my research is pastors
00:43:52.785 --> 00:43:57.806
said wonderful, beautiful things about who children are and their place in the church.
00:43:58.305 --> 00:44:01.485
But then as soon as I ask more questions and poke at things,
00:44:01.485 --> 00:44:03.395
you find out that the way that,
00:44:03.895 --> 00:44:08.165
the church is structured doesn't actually allow that beautiful theology of the
00:44:08.165 --> 00:44:13.695
child to be embodied because our practices don't line up with our beliefs,
00:44:13.695 --> 00:44:15.540
our theology, our assumptions.
00:44:16.214 --> 00:44:21.675
Yeah. And some of that's because we've inherited a structure or a pattern that
00:44:21.675 --> 00:44:23.232
somehow got baptized, as it were.
00:44:23.737 --> 00:44:28.705
And that's just how we do it. And that becomes as holy as the Bible and everything else.
00:44:29.775 --> 00:44:35.975
I think the other piece is that it's about what we measure and what we consider
00:44:35.975 --> 00:44:37.915
success. So this question of
00:44:37.915 --> 00:44:41.421
like, when it's not working, that's when we reevaluate and throw it out.
00:44:42.697 --> 00:44:47.330
Again, how do we evaluate, is it working? Like, how do you know if discipleship
00:44:47.330 --> 00:44:50.880
or formation is working? How do you know if worship is working?
00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.849
How do you know if preaching is working?
00:44:53.164 --> 00:44:56.090
How do you know if your Sunday school is working? Now, some people would say,
00:44:56.090 --> 00:44:59.311
well, the school is on the doors. You know, if they're not coming, it's not working.
00:44:59.983 --> 00:45:04.192
If there's nobody in the church, something's wrong. And possibly that is true.
00:45:04.981 --> 00:45:08.040
But, you know, it could be all sorts of things. Maybe your pews are really uncomfortable.
00:45:08.040 --> 00:45:11.940
Maybe it's freezing in your building. Maybe you're meeting at a time when there's
00:45:11.940 --> 00:45:13.723
no buses that get people to where you are.
00:45:13.995 --> 00:45:17.600
So sometimes it can be really practical things. So it isn't always,
00:45:17.600 --> 00:45:20.980
well, we're preaching the wrong thing or we've got the wrong model of church.
00:45:20.980 --> 00:45:28.640
But I do think we quite regularly try to measure everything by attendance. Yes.
00:45:29.761 --> 00:45:33.320
I mean, they're concrete metrics, aren't they? Yes.
00:45:33.737 --> 00:45:38.690
If you were trying to distinguish success or measure, is this working?
00:45:38.690 --> 00:45:44.082
Can you give any ideas of what you would be looking for as like measures of, is this working?
00:45:44.803 --> 00:45:48.536
Yeah, yeah. I think that is an important area. What I look at is,
00:45:48.536 --> 00:45:52.151
are you faithfully being who God's called you to be?
00:45:54.206 --> 00:46:00.800
Are you seeking and discerning with the Holy Spirit what it means to be your community?
00:46:01.027 --> 00:46:06.203
Are you asking all the questions you need to be asking? What are the things you're missing?
00:46:06.615 --> 00:46:10.576
Is it too cold? Is it the time? We never ask questions like that.
00:46:11.016 --> 00:46:12.966
We don't ask people why they're coming away.
00:46:13.442 --> 00:46:16.976
We just assume it's our preaching, it's our program, it's our structure,
00:46:16.976 --> 00:46:19.756
or we don't have kids' things so families won't come.
00:46:20.176 --> 00:46:24.736
And we make all these assumptions instead of asking different questions and
00:46:24.736 --> 00:46:29.406
instead of saying, my measure of success is going to be am I faithfully preaching
00:46:29.406 --> 00:46:34.222
the gospel in a way that is accessible to everyone who comes.
00:46:34.600 --> 00:46:39.146
I think that's a hard thing, too, to look at, because we want to do things the
00:46:39.146 --> 00:46:40.939
way we think they should be done.
00:46:41.455 --> 00:46:46.337
But are we checking it with God and saying, is this the best way for us to be
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:48.114
your church in this community?
00:46:48.479 --> 00:46:53.409
Do we need, when I look around the Canadian landscape and our communities and churches.
00:46:54.996 --> 00:47:00.588
What was once a very vibrant church in a community, because of who they are,
00:47:00.820 --> 00:47:06.672
that's now kind of dwindled down to, well, the community is still around them, but it's different.
00:47:07.101 --> 00:47:13.110
So has the church asked the new question, what does it mean to be the church now in this community?
00:47:13.458 --> 00:47:18.176
You know, am I being faithful to where the Holy Spirit is at work already around me?
00:47:18.629 --> 00:47:23.546
Because I see God still at work everywhere. And I see people who want to know,
00:47:23.546 --> 00:47:28.997
who are spiritually hungry, may not know that, you know, what that hunger is.
00:47:29.403 --> 00:47:35.026
But we as the church are still doing a way of church that doesn't actually address
00:47:35.026 --> 00:47:37.762
the gap there, that doesn't, because we're assuming...
00:47:38.424 --> 00:47:41.282
Our way of doing church is the way we should do it.
00:47:41.282 --> 00:47:44.592
And if people would just come back, if kids weren't in sports,
00:47:44.592 --> 00:47:51.764
if people weren't so busy, if all these kinds of things, instead of saying,
00:47:52.205 --> 00:47:55.152
no, am I actually really listening to the Holy Spirit?
00:47:55.152 --> 00:47:59.782
Am I discerning with God the way to be? Am I asking the right questions?
00:47:59.782 --> 00:48:04.680
Am I being faithful with the ministry calling I've been invited into?
00:48:05.162 --> 00:48:08.522
And not be so concerned about the results. And I know that's hard.
00:48:08.522 --> 00:48:12.191
It's easy for me to say when I don't have to worry about, you know,
00:48:12.453 --> 00:48:16.872
filling a church with people or answer to boards, that why are people showing up?
00:48:16.872 --> 00:48:21.762
But I do think if we just focus on those questions, we will continue to just
00:48:21.762 --> 00:48:25.321
look at the methodologies, the next thing that will work.
00:48:26.252 --> 00:48:31.272
That instead of saying, is it something about who we are as the church?
00:48:31.272 --> 00:48:37.112
Is it something about our theology of what it means to be God's people in this
00:48:37.112 --> 00:48:39.482
world today, given the reality?
00:48:39.482 --> 00:48:44.922
The world may not change. People are not going to get less busy or there's not
00:48:44.922 --> 00:48:49.743
going to be less competing values and all those things.
00:48:50.068 --> 00:48:54.979
So what does it mean then for us to continue to communicate this message of
00:48:55.246 --> 00:49:01.472
our unchanging God in a way that can be received by the community around us?
00:49:02.092 --> 00:49:07.702
And how do we, as God's people, say it's not enough for us to just be comfortable
00:49:07.702 --> 00:49:12.028
in our way of worship, in our way of being the church? We have to be more,
00:49:12.689 --> 00:49:17.914
expansive in our imagination of what it means to be the church and to be God's
00:49:17.914 --> 00:49:20.536
people in today's world and reality.
00:49:21.127 --> 00:49:26.514
Why being faithful? Because it's not my job to change people or to make people
00:49:26.514 --> 00:49:31.130
become Christians or to make sure that they're showing up to worship every week.
00:49:31.303 --> 00:49:38.034
It's my job to be faithful and to faithfully listen and change and respond and trust that.
00:49:39.692 --> 00:49:43.964
That will bear fruit if we stay close to where the Holy Spirit is already at
00:49:43.964 --> 00:49:47.401
work and where the Holy Spirit's leading us as a community.
00:49:47.575 --> 00:49:50.814
It's encouraging, because ultimately we're called to faithfulness, aren't we?
00:49:50.970 --> 00:49:54.395
And we're not called to any particular model of church. We're called to be God's
00:49:54.739 --> 00:49:56.814
people. We're called to be the body of Christ. Yeah.
00:49:57.594 --> 00:50:00.858
Yeah, and we're called to be faithful and to be led by God. And I think God
00:50:00.858 --> 00:50:01.855
is always doing a new thing.
00:50:02.301 --> 00:50:07.730
Not that we have to change what we do constantly, but God is creating.
00:50:08.095 --> 00:50:09.947
He is creator, but he is still creating.
00:50:11.094 --> 00:50:14.752
And he's creating new stuff in us and doing new stuff in us and in our churches.
00:50:15.441 --> 00:50:20.788
And it's often slow and iterative and we get it wrong. But yeah,
00:50:20.788 --> 00:50:22.471
God is always doing a new thing as well.
00:50:22.952 --> 00:50:27.108
So I think it is that how are we being rather than doing, coming back to those
00:50:27.108 --> 00:50:31.578
questions. And again, it's a slippery topic. It's hard to get your head around it and hold on to it.
00:50:32.310 --> 00:50:35.378
We would love concrete measurables, a tick list, tick, tick,
00:50:35.378 --> 00:50:39.009
tick. I've done everything God asked. I'm doing church well. Yay.
00:50:40.798 --> 00:50:43.158
I've done everything it's been asked of me. And then, you know,
00:50:43.158 --> 00:50:45.161
if they build it, they will come, that kind of thing.
00:50:45.586 --> 00:50:50.388
And it just, it doesn't work like that. It's like God teaches us faithfulness
00:50:50.388 --> 00:50:53.765
through adversity, teaches us patience through hard times.
00:50:54.247 --> 00:50:58.967
We have to keep trusting the Holy Spirit and God leads us in ways that we don't know.
00:50:59.610 --> 00:51:05.048
Yes. And he's constantly nudging and trying to unpick some of our theology where
00:51:05.048 --> 00:51:10.278
it's got a bit stale or we're leaning too heavily one way. And he's just like, you got off balance.
00:51:10.938 --> 00:51:14.375
You need to come back over here and acknowledge this truth as well.
00:51:15.328 --> 00:51:18.578
So leading church is movement.
00:51:18.578 --> 00:51:22.138
It's not static. I think this research is going to be fantastic when you bring it out.
00:51:22.138 --> 00:51:25.878
And I love the fact that by asking all these questions, you're learning and
00:51:25.878 --> 00:51:31.278
coming up with more questions. So thank you for helping us find even more questions
00:51:31.278 --> 00:51:33.978
to ask and asking better questions, I hope. Thank you, Tanya.
00:51:33.978 --> 00:51:36.231
Yes, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
00:51:38.569 --> 00:51:43.666
I hope this conversation with Tanya Ewan has encouraged you to ask fresh questions
00:51:43.666 --> 00:51:46.736
about how children and people of every generation can belong,
00:51:46.736 --> 00:51:51.236
participate and help shape the life of church.
00:51:52.083 --> 00:51:55.125
At Roots, we want to help churches put these ideas into practice.
00:51:55.764 --> 00:51:59.826
You'll find intergenerational resources and a series of articles to inspire
00:51:59.826 --> 00:52:04.680
reflection and help you explore what it means to grow as a church community across generations.
00:52:05.539 --> 00:52:09.636
Visit rootsforchurches.com to explore the resources take out a subscription
00:52:09.636 --> 00:52:13.686
or start a free trial and if this episode gave you something to think about
00:52:13.686 --> 00:52:16.866
please share it with a friend or someone in your church who might appreciate
00:52:16.866 --> 00:52:19.611
the conversation Together we can grow.