What Does Done Mean?

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Hello, friends. Do you have a moment so that we
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may discuss our lord and savior, Menarche? No, seriously, I'm
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just kidding. Hi, my name's Rick Robinson. I am the
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general manager of klrmradio.com. We are probably the largest independent
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podcast network that you've never heard of. We have a
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little bit of everything, and by that, what I mean
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to tell you is we have news, pop culture, special events, entertainment,
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true crime... mental health shows, drama productions, and pretty much
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everything in between. So if you're looking for a new
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podcast home to grab a little bit of everything that
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you love all in one place, come check us out.
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You can find us on X under at KLRN Radio.
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You can find us on our Rumble and our YouTube
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channels under the same name. You can also find us
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at klrnradio.com and pretty much every podcast catcher known to man.
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So again, feel free to come check us out anytime
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you like at KLRN Radio.
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KLRN Radio has advertising rates available. We have rates to
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fit almost any budget. Contact us at advertising at klrnradio.com.
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The following program contains coarse language and adult themes. Listener
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discretion is advised. From red dirt roads to the Capitol steps,
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Rick's calling truth, no time for regrets. Fire in his voice,
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facts in his hand, talking sense to the heart of
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this land.
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It's the Rick Robinson Show, where the truth rides high.
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No spin, no script, just an eagle in the sky.
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From D.C.
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To Tulsa, he's calling it out.
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Uh-oh, guess what day it is. guess what day it
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is huh anybody it is wednesday my dudes otherwise known
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as chat lives matter day right here live on klr radio.com
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and actually i guess it's chat lives matter night sorry
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i'm used to doing this one in the daytime but
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we had a dishwasher delivered today so uh Feeling a
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bit more middle class around here these days. So anyway,
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without further ado, it is Chat Lives Matter Night. You
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know what that means. It is Wednesday. It is Hump Day.
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It is Chat Lives Matter Day. It's the one day
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out of the week we try to let you chatters
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know how much you matter to us. And it started
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as the reverse of a joke. Because Polita Bunny once
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upon a time used to scream, chat sucked all the
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time on her show. But you guys matter. You're the reason, well,
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I mean, I would do this no matter if anybody
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was listening or not. And have. So we know that's true. Anyway,
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so we're here. We're live. It's Wednesday already. I know.
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This week just feels really weird because this is kind
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of my Monday. Anyway, it's been a week. The good
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news is more and more things around the homes that
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are getting taken care of. We're not really going to
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spend the whole show talking about that, but it is
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nice to have a working dishwasher again because, yeah, it's
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been a minute. Anyway, so welcome to a special primetime
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edition of The Rick Robinson Show. We're going to Stop
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talking about my dishwasher now. So we're going to start
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tonight with a very simple question. Can somebody define what
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the word done actually means? Not winning, not succeeding, not
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sending a message, not degrading capabilities. Not all of the
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wonderfully flexible phrases Washington has collected over the years. Whenever
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somebody decides American military power needs to be applied someplace overseas.
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I mean done, like actually done. Because the United States
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and Iran... Well, yeah, it's a it's word hug day
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in Iran again. Some of you will get that joke.
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Others of you will not. So the latest round is
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being described as the largest exchange between the United States
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and Iran since July. American forces have struck Iranian military targets,
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including air defenses, radar systems, maritime assets, mine lane capabilities
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and communication sites. Iran has retaliated against American forces in
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the region, and President Trump says this renewed American campaign
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against Iran will not last, quote unquote, too long. Okay,
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so can we finally define done? Because if you know
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it isn't going to last very long, presumably you know
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what has to happen before it stops. And that is
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the part of this conversation I think matters most tonight.
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I'm not interested in doing the reflexive thing where one
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side says, Trump is starting World War III, because I
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hear that a lot. And the other side responds, how
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dare you question the commander in chief? All Americans are
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in harm's way. Neither one of those answers the questions.
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And the question we're asking tonight is what is done
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and what exactly are we trying to accomplish? That's not anti-Trump.
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That's not anti-military. That's not isolationist. It's quite literally the
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first question you ought to ask before committing American power anywhere.
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What does success actually look like? Now, according to the military,
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these latest strikes targeted things that have a very obvious
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military purpose. Air defense, radar, maritime capability, mine lane capability, communications. Okay, fine.
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Those are identifiable targets. Those aren't abstract concepts. But destroying
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targets and achieving a strategic objective are not necessarily the
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same thing. You can destroy every radar dish in the neighborhood...
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and still have absolutely no idea what political condition you're
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trying to create when the smoke clears. And that is
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where I think Americans have earned the right to be skeptical.
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Not because this is Donald Trump, because we've seen this
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movie before, under presidents from both parties. We have watched
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administrations begin with very narrow descriptions of American involvement. We're
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protecting shipping. We're protecting allies. We're destroying a particular capability.
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We're responding to an attack. We told them about the
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red line, and they crossed it, so now we're enforcing
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that red line. We're degrading a threat. And then six
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months later, somebody has to remind us what the original
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mission was. So tonight, before everybody divides into the usual
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political teams, I'd like to try something radical. Take the
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administration at its word. President Trump says this isn't going
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to last too long. Great. Then there ought to be
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a definable condition that allows him to say that. Does
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Iran have to stop attacking American positions? Does Iran have
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to stop threatening shipping through the Strait of Hormuz? Does
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some specific Iranian military capability have to be destroyed? Does
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Tehran have to return to negotiations? Is the objective containment?
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Is it capitulation? Regime behavior change? Some form of regime
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change in and of itself? Because those are very different missions,
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and they produce very different wars. There is an enormous
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difference between saying we're going to destroy the weapons being
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used against American personnel and saying we're going to keep
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applying military pressure until the Iranian government behaves differently. The
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first one has an endpoint you can probably put on
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a map. The second one has an endpoint you might
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spend 20 years looking for. And that's why the words
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we define and those definitions of those words, and that's
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why defining words like done matters. Here's something else that
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ought to concern everybody, regardless of party. Iran does not
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exist in a vacuum. Every missile fired, every ship threatened,
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every interruption around the Strait of Hormuz gets reflected somewhere else.
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Oil reacts. Shipping reacts. Insurance reacts. Markets react. Eventually, energy prices,
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transportation costs, inflation, and borrowing costs all get invited to
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the same party. There's this strange habit in Washington where
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foreign policy gets discussed as though the military consequences happen
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overseas and the economic consequences disappear into a spreadsheet. Problem is,
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and the reason they think that, ladies and gentlemen, is
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because that's what we've allowed them to do over and
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over and over again. The problem is these things don't
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disappear into a spreadsheet. Somebody always pays, usually several somebodies.
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And that brings us very neatly to the second story tonight,
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because while we're once again talking about American military operations abroad,
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the United States has crossed a number that ought to
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stop every fiscal conservative in the country dead in his
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or her tracks. $ 40 trillion with a T. That's where
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the national debt now stands. $ 40 trillion. And before somebody
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starts warming up the partisan flamethrower, save it. Yes, this
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administration owns what happens on its watch. So did the
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last administration. So did the administration before that and the
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one before that. For years, Republicans have campaigned like Calvin
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Coolidge and governed like somebody handed them dad's credit card. Democrats,
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they're not any better. They're generally just less embarrassed about
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admitting they want to spend the money. And perhaps that's
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the most frustrating part of this entire conversation. America does
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not have a debt problem because one political party discovered spending.
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America has a debt problem because both political parties discovered constituencies.
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Everybody wants government smaller until government reaches the program they like.
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Everybody wants spending cuts until you name the spending you
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actually plan on cutting. Everybody wants fiscal responsibility, provided responsibility
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begins immediately after their own check clears. And now we're
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at $ 40 trillion. Let me put the argument another way.
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If you genuinely believe Iran represents a threat serious enough
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to justify American military action, then you should also be
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serious enough to ask how we're paying for it. If
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you genuinely believe America needs stronger borders, stronger defense, better infrastructure,
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stronger social security, better veteran services, or any of the
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other things Washington promises every damned election cycle ad infinitum,
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then eventually there has to be some relationship between what
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the government promises and what the government can actually afford,
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because debt isn't imaginary money. Government debt is a claim
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on future taxpayers. And increasingly, just servicing that debt becomes
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its own enormous expense. That's the trap. Once the debt
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gets large enough, you aren't merely borrowing money to build
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things or fight wars or fund programs. Eventually, you start
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borrowing enormous amounts of money, partly to service the enormous
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amounts of money you already borrowed. Interest becomes a federal
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program nobody ever voted for. And unlike practically every other
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item in the budget, you don't get to hold a
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press conference and cancel it. The bill arrives. It always arrives.
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This is where fiscal politics gets really uncomfortable. Donald Trump
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has repeatedly talked about economic growth as part of the solution.
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And growth absolutely matters. If the economy gets larger, a
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given amount of debt becomes easier to carry. but will
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grow our way out of it cannot become Washington's equivalent
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of telling Visa the check is in the mail. At
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some point, the arithmetic still has to work. And unfortunately,
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in today's age, you can't really do what they used
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to do on the old Roseanne show back when it
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was cool, when I remember there was an episode where
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Roseanne was figuring out that they didn't have enough money
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to pay the bills. So they put the check that
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was supposed to go to the phone company in the
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electric bills envelope. They put the check that was supposed
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to go in. the electric bills envelope, in the phone
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company envelope, I think. Either way. So what happened was
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they swapped the electric bill and the phone bill and
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put them in the wrong envelopes to buy themselves probably
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about 7 to 10 days for them to, well, we tried,
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and hopefully not get things cut off. But again, at
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some point, the arithmetic still has to work. Right now,
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in America, the math isn't mathing anymore. Donald Trump had
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a huge press conference today talking about all of the
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money that is being reinvested in America. And that is
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awesome and it sounds great on paper, but it all
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dissolves and starts going away if we don't hold the midterms.
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Everyone talks about how we don't know what's going to
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happen this year because Donald Trump isn't on the ballot.
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The hell he's not. Donald Trump is always on the ballot.
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The president should always be considered on the ballot, even
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if they're a lame duck, especially if you agree with
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their policies. The scary thing is if Donald Trump would
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have the rest of the government just get out of
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his way and let him do his job, you know,
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the same way that Republicans do for Democrats ad infinitum. Oh,
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you want that person? to be nominated to the Supreme Court, sure,
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he's the president or she's the president. They should get
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whatever they want. That's how the Republicans used to govern.
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The only ones that have always brought knives into normal
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situations were Democrats. And now they're mad because we've started
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playing by those same rules, which has created the gridlock
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situation that we live in today. And the problem is
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the American voter still isn't sure who to trust. Which
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is why we keep going back to gridlock. Everyone says,
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I wish we could get things done in Washington. When
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you don't know who to trust, the best thing to
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do is to slam on the brakes and stop everybody.
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The problem is that can't work anymore. And I'm going
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to explain to you why. Because the Democrats have officially
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jumped the shark. They are now officially the party of socialism,
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whether they want you to believe they are or not.
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And whether you choose to believe them or not is
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irrelevant because they've already decided for you. If you don't
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believe me, look at everything that's playing out all across
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the country today. And it has been for the last
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several weeks. DSA candidates went from having footholds to now
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strongholds to now beachheads. This will be a foregone conclusion
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unless we wake up. Because it won't matter to them
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if it takes 20 years. It won't matter to them
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if it takes two years. It won't matter to them
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if it takes 10 years. It won't matter to them
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if it takes 50 years. Because they've seen this work.
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They've watched it work. It's taken over 100 years to
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do the damage to this country that has already been
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done by people that had the idea that this country
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needed to be fundamentally transformed. The transformation is almost done.
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The question is, are we going to wake up enough
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to realize that right now we still have to use
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the adage, the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
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I don't like that adage any more than you do.
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And it is very bad for long-term history. But it
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works great for short term things that absolutely have to
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be stopped. And that's where we are right now, because
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both parties spend like drunken sailors. The only difference is
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who gets the money. Both parties campaign on how they're
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going to rein everything in or they're going to make
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your life better by giving you all the things that
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you think you shouldn't have to ever pay for ever again,
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all for free. And it's just how we are. It's
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just how things go. But the problem is, now that
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we're $ 40 trillion in debt, how long do you guys
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think this is going to last? How long do you
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think this is going to be considered anything that can
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be sustainable? Especially when we have so many other countries
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that serve as so much of our debt. Look, I
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get how much we want to be the biggest, baddest
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guy on the block. I get that. I understand that.
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Nature likes strength. Always has. But the problem is, When
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all these people that were, I mean, and trust me,
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I'm not necessarily opposed to the fact that Donald Trump
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is pissing a lot of people off right now. Because
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they deserve it. They have had us over a barrel
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now for years, for decades in some cases. But we've
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allowed them to, is the scary part. We've allowed them to.
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What happens when these people that hold all these notes
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decide they don't want to hold them anymore? What happens
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to our currency? Because somewhere along the way, circa 1970s,
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we decided we weren't going to be a country that
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manufactured anything anymore. We were going to be the money
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changers of the world. Anybody remember what Jesus did to
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the guys in the temple that were the money changers? Yeah,
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me too. Didn't go very well. But for some reason,
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we decided that was a good idea. But this is
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where we are now, because with $ 40 trillion in debt,
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Markets notice, so does the cost to borrow more money.
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Bond buyers notice too. And eventually voters notice when higher
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government borrowing begins competing with the rest of the economy
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for capital. Then politicians begin arguing about why mortgages cost more,
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why business loans cost more, why interest rates stay stubbornly high,
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why the government suddenly has less room to respond when
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an actual emergency arrives. Well, $ 40 trillion might be part
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of the conversation. And this is where our first two
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stories tonight collide. President Trump says the renewed military campaign
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against Iran won't last too long. And I hope he's right.
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I genuinely do. But not too long isn't a strategy.
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And we can afford it isn't a budget. The American
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people should be able to ask two questions simultaneously. What
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are we trying to accomplish? And what is it going
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to cost? Those questions don't make you disloyal. They don't
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make you weak. They don't make you anti-military. They make
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you the person apparently assigned the increasingly rare job of
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remembering that government power has consequences. Sometimes those consequences arrive
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at a crater thousands of miles away. Sometimes they arrive
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as a number on the Treasury Department's books. Sometimes those
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two numbers are connected. So if Washington wants us to
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support another round against Iran, give us the mission. Give
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us the end point. Let us know the total cost
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on the tally sheet. And then make your case, because
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after $ 40 trillion, trust us, we got this, is getting
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more than a little bit expensive. We're going to take
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the break, but after the break, we're going to move
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from how Washington uses American military and financial power overseas
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to how Washington is preparing to use another kind of
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power right here at home. That's right. In case you
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missed it, the Justice Department is telling states that if
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their agencies know someone is in this country illegally and
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refuse to report it, billions of dollars in federal money
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could potentially be on the line. And that raises another
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very simple question. When Washington writes the check, how many
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strings is Washington allowed to attach to it? We're going
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to get into that next, right after this music, musical interlude.
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I just realized I don't have another one loaded. So
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hang on. Let me just go down here for a second.
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I don't usually do these kinds of breaks on the, on,
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The Wednesday shows, but it's me tonight. And it may
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be just me. I'm still waiting to hear from you.
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So anyway, one moment, please. And we haven't played this
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one in a while. Let's play this one. We'll be
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right back. Stay tuned. And welcome back in to a
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special primetime Chat Labs Matter Night edition of the Rick
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Robinson Show. I am Rick Robinson. Some of you were like, oh,
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thank God. He forgot to turn his camera back on.
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But now you just noticed it's back on. Anyway, so
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welcome back into the program. So we've been talking a
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little bit about the Iran thing. Look, I'm going to
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say this again. This is not a new war. So
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for everybody who thinks that I'm suddenly being super critical
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of Donald Trump because of the Iran thing, I'm really not.
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I'm being critical of Donald Trump because he refuses to
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accept what has to happen with the Iran conflict. I'm
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going to say this again. They do not view things
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the same way that we do. The West, at least until... 1970s,
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used to give off the idea that it protected life,
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that life was a cherished thing. Middle East never thought that.
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Life has always been hard. Life has always been about
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the struggle to survive. Life has always been the strongest win.
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The problem with when you have a group of people
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that feel like they're more enlightened and more compassionate, who
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come to blows with people who think compassion is weak,
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is this. It doesn't matter how many times you knock
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them down. It doesn't matter how many times you hit them.
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Because if they are able to get back up again,
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in their mind, they win. And that's the truth of it.
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I don't like that any more than you do. But
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it's time for us to face the reality. We have
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been told for years that if we do not trust
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Islam as a faith, because it isn't one, it is
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a political system, Wrapped in a religion that is used
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to dominate people. And that's just the truth of it.
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And if you don't like it, you don't have to listen.
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But the truth of this is, we don't have an
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irrational fear of Islam. These people have been telling us
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for 50 years or more that they want us dead.
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It started with cute little sayings like, first the Saturday people,
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then the Sunday people. And it took a while for
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us to figure out what they were talking about. And then...
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We decided it wasn't that big of a deal because
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they were half a world away. And then September the 11th,
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2001 happened. And we realized it didn't matter anymore that
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they were half a world away because with technology the
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way it was, even then, they could be on our
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doorstep and inflicting harm to us within a matter of hours.
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And they did. And we've learned nothing from it. That's
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the part that upsets me the most is somebody who
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has been basically cataloging this stuff. That wasn't the word
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I was looking for, but it'll work well enough. Cataloging
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this stuff since, you know, when did I start? 2010?
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2009?
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Well, 2009 on a Facebook page, 2010 on my first podcast.
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So I've been podcasting now for 15, 16 years. Or no,
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I'm sorry, 11 years, I think. Hang on, let me
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do the math. 15, 25, so yeah. So 10 would
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be 20. So 16 years. 16 years. That's a very
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long time. That is a very, very long time. And
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the scariest thing about all of that is this. We've
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learned nothing. If we really want them to not come
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after us anymore, We have to show them that they
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can't do the things that they've done in Great Britain.
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They can't do the things that they've done in Wales.
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They can't do the things that they're currently doing in Spain.
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But we've been letting them. I wonder if we've been
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letting them. Sorry, I almost read BZ's comment online. Yeah,
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in the chat. I mean, to me, that's a long time. Hey,
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we have an owl sighting. Good evening, sir. How's things?
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All right, so I'm going to get back into the
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notes before I go so far afield that I'm not
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really talking about the stuff I wanted to talk about anymore.
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But I am going to say this one more time.
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It's pretty simple. If you really, really want Islam to
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quit being the big bad bully on the block, you
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can't just give them a bloody nose. I've said this before.
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There is a very strategic reason we uncorked the sun
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on Japan twice, because ideologically we knew unless we showed
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them that we could annihilate them, that they would never stop.
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The problem is, these people know, because we've proven that
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we can, should we choose to annihilate them, but unlike
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the Japanese, they didn't get the memo. Because like I said,
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if there's one of them left standing, as far as
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they're concerned, they've won. So before the break, and before
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my little soliloquy coming out of the break, I asked
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a question. When Washington writes the check, how many strings
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is Washington allowed to attach to it? Because the Justice
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Department has just changed the answer to another question. If
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your state accepts certain federal welfare money, who inside your
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state government is responsible for reporting somebody known to be
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here illegally? And according to a new opinion from the
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Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel, the answer is potentially
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every agency. Not just the welfare office. Not just the
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agency actually administering the programs. The entire state government. Here's
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what's happening. Back in 1996, Congress passed the welfare reform
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law that created the modern temporary assistance for needy families program,
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commonly referred to as TANF. That law contains reporting requirements
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involving people state governments know are not lawfully present in
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the United States. For nearly three decades, the federal government
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operated under a 1998 Justice Department interpretation that read that
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requirement relatively narrowly. Essentially, If a particular state agency administered
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one of these covered federal programs, that agency had the
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reporting obligation. The rest of the state government wasn't automatically
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dragged in underneath it. The Trump Justice Department has now
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withdrawn that interpretation, and its Office of Legal Counsel says
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Congress used the word state much more broadly, meaning if Oklahoma,
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or shall we say Commie failure, or even New York, Illinois, Texas,
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anybody chooses to participate in TANF, or supplemental security income.
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Under these provisions, the reporting obligation does not stop at
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the door of the welfare agency. It applies across the
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state government. And that is a very significant difference because
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every state participates. The District of Columbia participates. Several territories participate.
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And TANF grants alone amount to more than $ 16 billion
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a year in federal funding. So this isn't Washington sending
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somebody a strongly worded letter. There is real money attached here.
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The Justice Department says states that fail to comply could
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face serious consequences, up to and including the loss of
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program funding. Now, before anybody gets ahead of the facts,
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there are two things we need to make very clear.
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Number one, this does not mean Washington announced today that
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it is immediately cutting billions of dollars from California or
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New York. Don't feel bad. I'm kind of sad about that, too.
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because that's not what they said. The new interpretation applies
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going forward, and the Justice Department specifically says states will
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not be punished retroactively for having relied on the old interpretation.
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And number two, this is the Justice Department's legal interpretation.
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It is not the Supreme Court handing down a decision saying, yep,
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case closed, every agency and every state has to do
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exactly what DOJ says. I suspect we're going to hear
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from judges eventually because if states resist this, does anybody
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really believe that states aren't going to resist this? We're
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going to run straight into one of the oldest arguments
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in American government. Washington has the money. The states, they
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want that money. How much control does taking the money
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buy in Washington? This is one of those situations where
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I think your answer should survive a change of president.
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That's usually my favorite quest or my favorite test for
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questions just like this. If Donald Trump can say you
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voluntarily accepted these federal dollars, Congress attached conditions, follow the conditions,
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would you be comfortable with President Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, otherwise known
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as the occasional cortex, someday saying you voluntarily accepted these
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federal dollars, Congress attached conditions, follow the conditions. Because the
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principle does not become good or bad depending on who
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gets to use it. Now, There is a powerful argument
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on the administration's side here. Congress does this all the time.
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Federal money comes with requirements, aka strings. States don't simply
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receive billions of dollars and then decide every federal condition
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attached to those dollars is optional. If Congress says this
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money is available, provided you follow these rules, the obvious
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response is, we shall follow the rules. And if you
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don't like the rules, don't take the money. That's the
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straightforward argument. And there's another part of this that I
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suspect a lot of listeners will find pretty persuasive. If
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somebody inside a state government actually knows an individual is
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unlawfully present in the United States, why exactly should the
472
00:29:28.509 --> 00:29:31.690
state government be entitled to conceal that information from the
473
00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:35.549
federal government responsible for immigration enforcement? Notice the word I
474
00:29:35.690 --> 00:29:39.339
use there. Knows, not suspects. not this guy has an
475
00:29:39.420 --> 00:29:44.859
accent not somebody called the hotline known to be unlawfully
476
00:29:44.900 --> 00:29:49.490
present that's an important distinction because otherwise this conversation gets
477
00:29:49.569 --> 00:29:54.390
ridiculous very quickly so from the administration's perspective the argument
478
00:29:54.450 --> 00:29:58.099
is basically congress created the requirement States willingly take the
479
00:29:58.140 --> 00:30:02.940
federal money. Federal immigration enforcement requires information. Therefore, states don't
480
00:30:02.960 --> 00:30:08.150
get to cash Washington's checks and then selectively ignore Washington's laws.
481
00:30:09.029 --> 00:30:14.369
That's not a crazy argument. But, much like there always is,
482
00:30:14.450 --> 00:30:18.289
there's another side. Because the federal government has spent decades
483
00:30:18.390 --> 00:30:25.430
using money to encourage and sometimes effectively compel state behavior. Highways. Education. Healthcare.
484
00:30:25.970 --> 00:30:30.700
Law enforcement. environmental policy, you name it, and eventually you
485
00:30:30.740 --> 00:30:33.660
can always refuse the money becomes a slightly strange thing
486
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.619
to say when the federal government collected the money from
487
00:30:36.660 --> 00:30:39.230
your taxpayers in the first place and your state has
488
00:30:39.269 --> 00:30:43.710
built entire programs around receiving it. Imagine Washington collects billions
489
00:30:43.750 --> 00:30:47.069
from Oklahomans. Washington then holds some of those billions out
490
00:30:47.190 --> 00:30:50.430
and says, you may have your taxpayers' money back provided
491
00:30:50.470 --> 00:30:53.779
your state government adopts our preferred policy. At some point,
492
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:56.799
that begins looking less like an incentive than and more
493
00:30:56.839 --> 00:31:02.039
like leverage. And courts have in fact recognized there are
494
00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:06.079
limits to this leverage. Washington generally has broad power to
495
00:31:06.119 --> 00:31:09.250
put conditions on federal spending, but that power is not
496
00:31:09.349 --> 00:31:15.170
literally unlimited. The conditions matter. How clearly Congress imposed them matters.
497
00:31:15.789 --> 00:31:18.609
How closely they're connected to the program matters. And at
498
00:31:18.650 --> 00:31:22.599
the extreme, whether Washington is effectively putting a financial gun
499
00:31:22.630 --> 00:31:26.700
to the state's head can matter. Which is why today's
500
00:31:26.769 --> 00:31:30.849
Justice Department opinion is a rather important one. The underlying
501
00:31:30.910 --> 00:31:33.730
statute is 30 years old. The federal government interpreted it
502
00:31:33.769 --> 00:31:37.049
in one way in 1998. Now the Justice Department has
503
00:31:37.069 --> 00:31:39.650
gone back, looked at the same word state, and said,
504
00:31:39.930 --> 00:31:45.349
we were reading this too narrowly all along. That, to
505
00:31:45.690 --> 00:31:50.230
paraphrase Mr. Spock, is fascinating. Because Congress didn't pass a
506
00:31:50.269 --> 00:31:54.430
brand new reporting law yesterday. The words, those were already there.
507
00:31:55.130 --> 00:31:58.509
What changed was the executive branch's interpretation of those words.
508
00:31:59.230 --> 00:32:01.890
And that gets us straight back into the larger conversation
509
00:32:01.910 --> 00:32:05.990
we're having tonight. Who decides? Congress wrote the statute. The
510
00:32:06.069 --> 00:32:10.190
executive branch interprets and then enforces it. States decide whether
511
00:32:10.210 --> 00:32:13.049
they're going to comply, and eventually courts may decide whether
512
00:32:13.089 --> 00:32:17.750
the executive branch has read the statute correctly and whether
513
00:32:17.789 --> 00:32:22.579
the funding consequences are lawful. That is the system. Messy
514
00:32:22.630 --> 00:32:26.150
as hell sometimes, but that's the system. And politically, I
515
00:32:26.170 --> 00:32:30.150
think this puts sanctuary jurisdictions in a very uncomfortable position
516
00:32:30.230 --> 00:32:33.069
because we won't help ICE sounds one way when you're
517
00:32:33.089 --> 00:32:36.009
talking about a city police department refusing to participate in
518
00:32:36.069 --> 00:32:38.950
an immigration raid. It sounds somewhat different when the question
519
00:32:38.990 --> 00:32:43.299
becomes your state government possesses information showing that someone is
520
00:32:43.359 --> 00:32:46.779
unlawfully in the country. Is the state entitled to deliberately
521
00:32:46.839 --> 00:32:51.259
keep that information from federal immigration authorities while continuing to
522
00:32:51.339 --> 00:32:54.380
accept federal money under a law containing a reporting requirement?
523
00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:59.769
That's a harder argument. But conservatives should be careful about
524
00:32:59.829 --> 00:33:04.329
celebrating the mechanism without thinking through the precedent. Because federalism
525
00:33:04.410 --> 00:33:09.650
doesn't mean Washington should leave Oklahoma alone, but absolutely crush California. Wait,
526
00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:16.170
that's not what it means. Damn it. Federalism means states
527
00:33:16.230 --> 00:33:19.369
retain meaningful authority, even when you dislike what they do
528
00:33:19.410 --> 00:33:23.589
with it. So my position here isn't particularly particularly complicated.
529
00:33:24.319 --> 00:33:28.680
If Congress clearly conditioned participation in these programs on reporting information,
530
00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:32.420
states do not get to pretend the condition doesn't exist.
531
00:33:34.259 --> 00:33:37.720
But if Washington is relying on an aggressive new executive
532
00:33:37.759 --> 00:33:41.910
interpretation to transform an error program requirement into a command
533
00:33:42.009 --> 00:33:46.150
binding every agency and state government, then states have every
534
00:33:46.170 --> 00:33:49.329
right to test that interpretation in court. That's not obstruction.
535
00:33:49.569 --> 00:33:52.009
That's exactly what courts are there for. Here's the part
536
00:33:52.049 --> 00:33:55.250
that might make this fight get very expensive very quickly.
537
00:33:56.390 --> 00:34:00.890
Everybody is already participating in every state. So nobody gets
538
00:34:00.930 --> 00:34:03.970
to watch this from the cheap sheets. I'm sorry, cheap seats.
539
00:34:04.470 --> 00:34:08.219
This is potentially a 50-state question. And I suspect the
540
00:34:08.260 --> 00:34:11.739
legal argument won't simply be, should illegal immigrants be reported?
541
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:14.980
The much bigger question will be, what did Congress actually
542
00:34:15.039 --> 00:34:18.199
require when it wrote the law? Because those are not
543
00:34:18.260 --> 00:34:21.300
always the same question. And that's why I keep coming
544
00:34:21.320 --> 00:34:24.519
back to language. We have gotten into this terrible political
545
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:27.719
habit of asking whether we like the policy outcome first
546
00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:30.900
and figuring out what the law says second. Flip that around.
547
00:34:31.099 --> 00:34:35.320
Read the law. Determine what Congress actually authorized. Apply it
548
00:34:35.360 --> 00:34:38.619
consistently and argue about whether Congress ought to change it
549
00:34:38.679 --> 00:34:42.760
or not. Because otherwise, every administration gets to discover brand
550
00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:46.980
new powers hiding inside 30-year-old sentences whenever those powers become
551
00:34:47.059 --> 00:34:50.880
politically convenient. And even if you like the side that's
552
00:34:50.900 --> 00:34:54.579
wielding that power today, Are you sure you're going to
553
00:34:54.599 --> 00:34:57.739
like it when the other side gets a turn? Because
554
00:34:57.760 --> 00:34:59.719
I don't care which party is doing it. That's a
555
00:34:59.900 --> 00:35:03.210
dangerous way to govern. So we'll watch what the states do.
556
00:35:03.590 --> 00:35:07.110
We'll watch whether federal agencies actually begin changing their funding agreements.
557
00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:10.690
And if somebody decides to challenge this thing, we'll watch
558
00:35:10.750 --> 00:35:15.030
what the courts say. But the political warning from Washington tonight,
559
00:35:15.530 --> 00:35:18.679
that's pretty clear. If your state takes money, the Trump
560
00:35:18.719 --> 00:35:22.320
administration says your entire state government takes the reporting obligation
561
00:35:22.380 --> 00:35:24.960
with it. And that brings us very neatly to another
562
00:35:25.030 --> 00:35:28.550
argument about the boundaries of government authority. Only this time
563
00:35:28.590 --> 00:35:32.429
we're going from Washington and the states to schools and parents.
564
00:35:33.090 --> 00:35:36.889
Because the Justice Department is now in court against, you're
565
00:35:36.909 --> 00:35:39.780
never going to believe this, a Kansas school district over
566
00:35:39.840 --> 00:35:45.139
policies involving transgender students. That's right, I said Kansas. You know,
567
00:35:45.360 --> 00:35:49.460
the place where Clark Kent was supposedly from. And information
568
00:35:49.539 --> 00:35:52.800
kept from their families. And underneath all of the political
569
00:35:52.860 --> 00:35:55.840
shouting is a question that is actually much bigger than
570
00:35:55.940 --> 00:35:59.960
transgender policies. Can a public school know something significant about
571
00:35:59.980 --> 00:36:03.940
your minor child and intentionally decide that you are not
572
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:11.920
entitled to know it? That's where we're going next. So,
573
00:36:12.340 --> 00:36:15.579
we've been talking all night about... A bunch of different things.
574
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.119
Who decides and who ultimately has the authority? That's the
575
00:36:19.159 --> 00:36:23.409
part we're in now, is who has authority? And who
576
00:36:23.449 --> 00:36:26.150
has authority about what happens when Washington says, you took
577
00:36:26.190 --> 00:36:28.829
the money, you follow the rules? Now let's move that
578
00:36:28.889 --> 00:36:31.710
argument down one level, because the Justice Department has filed
579
00:36:31.750 --> 00:36:35.670
what it calls a first-of-its-kind lawsuit against Kansas City, Kansas
580
00:36:35.710 --> 00:36:39.769
Public Schools. And underneath all of the noise around gender
581
00:36:39.789 --> 00:36:43.250
politics is a very basic question. Can a public school
582
00:36:43.309 --> 00:36:48.590
know something significant about your minor child and intentionally decide
583
00:36:49.090 --> 00:36:51.190
that you as the parent are not entitled to know it?
584
00:36:52.550 --> 00:36:54.610
That's the question I want to stay with because the
585
00:36:54.650 --> 00:36:58.469
lawsuit alleges that the district maintained an internal guidance allowing
586
00:36:58.610 --> 00:37:03.230
school staff to help students socially transition at school, including
587
00:37:05.110 --> 00:37:10.659
the use of names, pronouns, and other identity-related accommodations. while
588
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:15.000
in some circumstances withholding that information from their parents. The
589
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:19.619
Justice Department says that violates federal parental rights protections under
590
00:37:19.860 --> 00:37:25.909
FERPA and the Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment. The district
591
00:37:25.949 --> 00:37:29.469
disputes that, and it disputes that it has violated federal
592
00:37:29.489 --> 00:37:32.710
law at all. So again, we have allegations, we have
593
00:37:32.750 --> 00:37:36.409
a lawsuit. We do not yet have a final court
594
00:37:36.469 --> 00:37:40.639
ruling declaring the district's policies unlawful. We've got to keep
595
00:37:40.659 --> 00:37:44.039
those lanes clean. But if the government's allegations are accurate,
596
00:37:44.079 --> 00:37:46.820
the underlying issue is much bigger than whether you agree
597
00:37:46.860 --> 00:37:50.179
with the Trump administration's position on transgender students or not.
598
00:37:50.760 --> 00:37:53.269
Because I think parents ought to ask themselves something much
599
00:37:53.329 --> 00:37:57.809
more basic. Who exactly has primary responsibility for my child?
600
00:37:59.010 --> 00:38:03.389
The school, the counselor, the teacher, the district administrator, or
601
00:38:03.449 --> 00:38:06.170
the parent? Because somewhere along the way, portions of our
602
00:38:06.210 --> 00:38:10.130
education system seem... to have adopted the idea that the
603
00:38:10.170 --> 00:38:13.789
relationship between a child and a public school can occasionally
604
00:38:14.550 --> 00:38:17.769
supersede the relationship between a child and his or her parents.
605
00:38:18.469 --> 00:38:21.789
And I'm not sure when we voted on that. Now,
606
00:38:21.809 --> 00:38:24.230
there is an argument on the other side. Advocates for
607
00:38:24.269 --> 00:38:28.110
these confidentiality policies will tell you that there are children
608
00:38:28.150 --> 00:38:32.070
who do not feel safe discussing gender identity or sexuality
609
00:38:32.110 --> 00:38:35.150
with their families. They will tell you disclosure could expose
610
00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:39.429
some children to punishment, abuse, or some things as serious
611
00:38:39.480 --> 00:38:43.380
as homelessness or other consequences. You don't have to agree
612
00:38:43.440 --> 00:38:46.400
with every policy conclusion that comes from that concern to
613
00:38:46.460 --> 00:38:50.260
admit the concern itself can be real. There are, unfortunately,
614
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:54.039
some people that we would consider bad parents. There are
615
00:38:54.079 --> 00:39:00.460
abusive parents. There are dangerous homes. Nobody serious about any
616
00:39:00.500 --> 00:39:04.690
of this should pretend otherwise. But here's my problem with
617
00:39:04.710 --> 00:39:07.070
that argument. And this is where I think the argument
618
00:39:07.110 --> 00:39:12.230
becomes even more slippery. Most of the time, in my experience,
619
00:39:12.289 --> 00:39:14.389
and I have to use that qualifier, a lot of
620
00:39:14.429 --> 00:39:17.269
these kids that claim that they are either non-binary or
621
00:39:17.329 --> 00:39:20.969
transgender are doing so because it's being foisted upon them
622
00:39:21.030 --> 00:39:25.050
in all the school activities and everything else. And just
623
00:39:25.110 --> 00:39:27.530
like a lot of– remember all the things we used
624
00:39:27.550 --> 00:39:29.889
to be told when we were kids about peer pressure? Yeah.
625
00:39:30.019 --> 00:39:34.739
guys don't think peer pressure is still a thing? So
626
00:39:35.019 --> 00:39:37.539
while I do agree that there may be a small
627
00:39:37.619 --> 00:39:41.579
percentage of people that do in fact have gender dysphoria,
628
00:39:42.760 --> 00:39:47.019
which is a diagnosed problem and it is a mental disorder...
629
00:39:47.429 --> 00:39:50.250
on the spectrum of mental disorders, a lot of these
630
00:39:50.309 --> 00:39:52.989
other kids are doing it because it's the cool thing
631
00:39:53.110 --> 00:40:00.159
to do. So in my estimation, that is when the
632
00:40:00.219 --> 00:40:03.219
parents tend to kind of lose their handle on all
633
00:40:03.239 --> 00:40:06.800
of this because they're looking at it going, dude, you
634
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:09.219
don't act this way at home. You don't say these
635
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:11.840
kind of things at home. We don't ever talk about
636
00:40:11.880 --> 00:40:14.030
these kind of things. Now, all of a sudden, you're
637
00:40:14.070 --> 00:40:16.639
telling me that you want to start playing with Barbies
638
00:40:16.699 --> 00:40:24.659
and painting your nails. That's not normal. And the simple
639
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:27.889
fact of the matter is, the parents are the ultimate
640
00:40:28.050 --> 00:40:32.070
authority when it comes to their children. That is, I mean,
641
00:40:32.110 --> 00:40:35.909
it's not outlined in the Constitution or in our Declaration
642
00:40:35.949 --> 00:40:39.059
of Independence, but it is basically enshrined in our common
643
00:40:39.099 --> 00:40:42.340
law practices. So the fact that the state keeps trying
644
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.440
to step in over and over and over again and
645
00:40:45.539 --> 00:40:48.039
take over for parents, if you want to know why
646
00:40:48.079 --> 00:40:50.980
the DSA has managed to get such a hold, there's
647
00:40:51.019 --> 00:40:54.699
part of it. Your education system that you've been paying
648
00:40:54.760 --> 00:40:57.780
for has been teaching your children to hate this country.
649
00:40:58.940 --> 00:41:02.320
They've been teaching your children to hate you. They've been
650
00:41:02.360 --> 00:41:05.599
teaching your children to think that you are outdated, out
651
00:41:05.619 --> 00:41:11.619
of touch. unable to understand the way society works today,
652
00:41:12.039 --> 00:41:14.260
and that's why they keep being told to come back
653
00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.519
to the school or, shall we say, come back to
654
00:41:17.559 --> 00:41:23.440
the state because the state always knows better. So here's
655
00:41:23.480 --> 00:41:25.760
the other problem, though. The existence of bad parents does
656
00:41:25.800 --> 00:41:28.780
not create a general presumption that parents are dangerous until
657
00:41:28.820 --> 00:41:32.320
the state determines otherwise. And again, in a lot of instances,
658
00:41:32.380 --> 00:41:35.019
this is where I feel the schools are coming down
659
00:41:35.059 --> 00:41:36.940
on the wrong side of this argument. That turns the
660
00:41:36.980 --> 00:41:40.469
relationship back If there's evidence of abuse, we already have
661
00:41:40.510 --> 00:41:44.659
systems designed to deal with abuse. Teachers are mandatory reporters.
662
00:41:44.840 --> 00:41:49.300
Child protective services exist for a reason. Courts exist. Law
663
00:41:49.340 --> 00:41:54.800
enforcement agencies exist. There are mechanisms for circumstances where a
664
00:41:54.840 --> 00:41:58.900
parent genuinely poses a danger to a child. But that's
665
00:41:58.940 --> 00:42:01.599
very different from saying, we don't know that you're dangerous,
666
00:42:01.639 --> 00:42:04.300
but your child told us something significant, and we have
667
00:42:04.340 --> 00:42:07.460
decided that you don't need to know. That's not child
668
00:42:07.500 --> 00:42:12.989
protection anymore. That's institutional substitution. And I think that distinction
669
00:42:13.030 --> 00:42:17.599
matters enormously. Let's talk about FERPA for a second. Because
670
00:42:17.639 --> 00:42:20.320
people hear an acronym and their eyes roll backward into
671
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.780
their skull. And everybody starts looking like Homer Simpson daydreaming
672
00:42:23.980 --> 00:42:28.699
about donuts at his console. FERPA is largely about parents
673
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:33.179
and students' rights involving education records. Parents generally have the
674
00:42:33.219 --> 00:42:36.099
right to inspect and review their minor child's education records.
675
00:42:36.659 --> 00:42:39.860
The Justice Department's argument is that a district cannot create
676
00:42:39.920 --> 00:42:44.179
practices that effectively hide information by keeping one reality inside
677
00:42:44.219 --> 00:42:47.019
the school building and presenting another one to the parents.
678
00:42:47.539 --> 00:42:50.719
The government is also invoking the Protection of Pupil Rights Amendment,
679
00:42:51.320 --> 00:42:55.840
arguing that some practices involving sensitive student information may trigger
680
00:42:55.929 --> 00:43:00.550
separate parental consent protections. Again, the district gets to respond.
681
00:43:01.030 --> 00:43:03.989
The courts get to decide whether those statutes actually cover
682
00:43:04.050 --> 00:43:07.570
what DOJ says they cover. But from a policy standpoint,
683
00:43:07.619 --> 00:43:10.650
I think the instinct here is pretty simple. The school
684
00:43:10.949 --> 00:43:15.030
works for the family. The family does not work for
685
00:43:15.090 --> 00:43:19.070
the school. Public education is not the government temporarily borrowing
686
00:43:19.110 --> 00:43:21.670
your child from you between 8 and 3. It is
687
00:43:21.710 --> 00:43:25.349
supposed to be a partnership. Teachers know things parents don't know.
688
00:43:25.809 --> 00:43:29.070
Parents know things teachers don't know. Good schools function because
689
00:43:29.110 --> 00:43:32.929
those two groups communicate. The fastest way to destroy that
690
00:43:32.989 --> 00:43:37.230
relationship is for either side to begin deliberately keeping significant
691
00:43:37.250 --> 00:43:40.690
information from the other. And schools should be especially cautious
692
00:43:40.730 --> 00:43:45.280
because they are exercising public authority over someone else's child.
693
00:43:46.510 --> 00:43:48.860
That's where this connects directly to the argument we just
694
00:43:48.900 --> 00:43:54.019
had about Washington and the states. Power creates responsibility. If
695
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:57.360
you possess authority, you also acquire an obligation to explain
696
00:43:57.420 --> 00:44:01.389
how you're using said authority. If a federal agency shouldn't
697
00:44:01.429 --> 00:44:04.250
get to say, because we control the money, we don't
698
00:44:04.289 --> 00:44:07.230
have to justify the condition, and the school shouldn't get
699
00:44:07.269 --> 00:44:09.829
to say, because your child is in our building, we
700
00:44:09.849 --> 00:44:12.489
get to decide which parts of your child's life you're
701
00:44:12.530 --> 00:44:16.150
entitled to know. Maybe the school is right in an
702
00:44:16.610 --> 00:44:21.030
individual case. Maybe disclosure genuinely would endanger a student. But
703
00:44:21.070 --> 00:44:23.849
if you're going to override a parent's normal role in
704
00:44:23.869 --> 00:44:26.760
their own child's life, then the standard ought to be
705
00:44:26.820 --> 00:44:30.360
higher than, well, it's our policy. There should be a reason.
706
00:44:30.960 --> 00:44:34.440
There should be evidence. There should be accountability. Because otherwise,
707
00:44:34.500 --> 00:44:38.199
the state quietly becomes the final authority over family relationships
708
00:44:38.679 --> 00:44:42.239
simply because the state happens to employ the counselor. And
709
00:44:42.280 --> 00:44:45.099
I don't think most Americans signed up for that. Here's
710
00:44:45.139 --> 00:44:49.570
another problem. Once parents believe schools are deliberately hiding things
711
00:44:49.619 --> 00:44:54.809
from them, trust doesn't collapse only around gender policy. The
712
00:44:54.869 --> 00:44:58.610
rot spreads. Now the parent starts wondering, what else aren't
713
00:44:58.630 --> 00:45:02.159
you telling me? What happened in the classroom? What books
714
00:45:02.219 --> 00:45:06.539
are being used? What counseling is taking place? What disciplinary
715
00:45:06.579 --> 00:45:09.639
problem didn't I hear about? What survey did my kid
716
00:45:09.679 --> 00:45:13.199
fill out? What information are you actively collecting? And suddenly
717
00:45:13.320 --> 00:45:18.139
every interaction becomes adversarial. That's terrible for schools. It's terrible
718
00:45:18.179 --> 00:45:22.280
for teachers. And mostly it's terrible for parents and ultimately
719
00:45:22.340 --> 00:45:26.239
for their kids. So whatever your position on transgender policy,
720
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:29.599
I think the principal ought to survive the politics. If
721
00:45:29.659 --> 00:45:32.079
a public school is going to keep significant information about
722
00:45:32.119 --> 00:45:35.280
a minor child from that child's parents, the burden should
723
00:45:35.300 --> 00:45:38.679
be on the institution to have to explain why, not
724
00:45:38.739 --> 00:45:41.869
on the parents to discover that it happened. The Justice
725
00:45:41.889 --> 00:45:45.630
Department says Kansas City, Kansas public schools crossed that line.
726
00:45:46.110 --> 00:45:49.369
The district says it did not violate federal law. Now
727
00:45:49.409 --> 00:45:51.670
a federal court gets to sort through exactly what the
728
00:45:51.690 --> 00:45:55.139
policy said, how they were applied, and what FERPA and
729
00:45:55.360 --> 00:46:00.260
PPRA actually require. And that's good in my opinion. That's
730
00:46:00.300 --> 00:46:02.519
what the courts are for, and we don't typically use
731
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:05.380
them for what they're for anymore. But the larger question
732
00:46:05.420 --> 00:46:09.599
isn't going away. The larger question of who actually raises
733
00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:12.619
the child. And when the school and the parent disagree
734
00:46:12.659 --> 00:46:17.199
about something, this is fundamental. Who starts with the presumption
735
00:46:17.219 --> 00:46:21.760
of authority? I think parents do. Not absolute authority, not
736
00:46:21.820 --> 00:46:24.909
authority to abuse, not authority immune from the law, but
737
00:46:24.989 --> 00:46:28.369
primary authority. Because if the government wants to replace that
738
00:46:28.429 --> 00:46:31.639
presumption with something else, it had better have a very
739
00:46:31.679 --> 00:46:36.159
good reason. And when we come back, we're coming back
740
00:46:36.199 --> 00:46:39.059
to Oklahoma because two people are dead after an explosion
741
00:46:39.099 --> 00:46:43.010
at a marijuana extraction facility near Sand Springs. A business
742
00:46:43.070 --> 00:46:46.369
owner now faces two counts of first-degree murder, and the
743
00:46:46.389 --> 00:46:50.690
case raises an uncomfortable question about regulation. If the government
744
00:46:50.750 --> 00:46:54.260
inspected the business and didn't see the dangerous operation, how
745
00:46:54.300 --> 00:46:59.760
did the dangerous operation end up happening anyway? So before
746
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:01.559
we get into the Oklahoma story, let me tell you
747
00:47:01.579 --> 00:47:04.739
about something I've actually been using. And that's my new
748
00:47:04.800 --> 00:47:07.940
nectar bed. And I know normally when somebody starts talking
749
00:47:07.980 --> 00:47:10.300
about a mattress on the radio, this is where you
750
00:47:10.340 --> 00:47:12.980
assume I'm about to read you 17 bullet points somebody
751
00:47:13.019 --> 00:47:16.559
handed me. Nope. I've actually been sleeping on this thing.
752
00:47:17.099 --> 00:47:19.940
And more importantly for somebody like me, I've been working
753
00:47:20.000 --> 00:47:23.739
from it too. Because apparently my solution to workaholism was
754
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:25.639
not to work less. It was to get a bed
755
00:47:25.679 --> 00:47:30.760
that makes working too much easier. considerably more comfortable. The
756
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:33.360
adjustable base is probably the feature I've ended up using
757
00:47:33.420 --> 00:47:35.840
more than I expected. You can raise the head, raise
758
00:47:35.860 --> 00:47:38.679
the feet. It even has a setting for zero gravity,
759
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:41.070
which is pretty damn cool. You get yourself into a
760
00:47:41.090 --> 00:47:43.150
position where you're not trying to prop yourself up against
761
00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:47.050
six pillows while you're working, reading, or watching something. And yes,
762
00:47:48.030 --> 00:47:50.610
it has a massage feature, which means I have now
763
00:47:50.690 --> 00:47:53.650
reached the stage of life where I'm lying in bed
764
00:47:54.190 --> 00:47:58.079
answering emails while the furniture gives me a massage. I've
765
00:47:58.119 --> 00:48:01.239
become everything younger Rick would have wanted. My old bed
766
00:48:01.300 --> 00:48:03.400
was also getting pretty close to the point where I
767
00:48:03.440 --> 00:48:07.110
wasn't sure whether I owned a mattress or an archaeological site.
768
00:48:08.150 --> 00:48:10.130
So the timing worked out pretty well. If you've been
769
00:48:10.170 --> 00:48:13.090
thinking about replacing yours, we're going to get a QR
770
00:48:13.130 --> 00:48:14.610
code up on the screen here in just a minute.
771
00:48:14.889 --> 00:48:18.699
Use it and you'll get an additional $ 100 off what
772
00:48:18.739 --> 00:48:22.000
is already an amazing deal in my opinion. That's the
773
00:48:22.039 --> 00:48:25.340
whole call to action. Scan the QR code. Take the
774
00:48:25.420 --> 00:48:29.639
extra $ 100 off. Maybe stop waking up angry at your mattress.
775
00:48:29.659 --> 00:48:31.800
Because I didn't realize how angry I was at my
776
00:48:31.840 --> 00:48:36.039
mattress until I got a new one. And the QR
777
00:48:36.059 --> 00:48:37.539
code is up on the screen. We'll leave it up
778
00:48:37.559 --> 00:48:39.159
for a few minutes while we move on to the
779
00:48:39.199 --> 00:48:41.400
next segment for anybody who wants to check it out.
780
00:48:43.079 --> 00:48:46.050
And I do, like I said, I don't promote things
781
00:48:46.110 --> 00:48:50.389
I don't use. And this thing has changed my life
782
00:48:50.530 --> 00:48:54.239
in a lot of good ways. All right. So now, again,
783
00:48:54.280 --> 00:48:56.800
we're going back home here in Oklahoma, and this story
784
00:48:57.440 --> 00:48:59.320
is an ugly one, and I know technically we're already
785
00:48:59.360 --> 00:49:00.860
past the top of the hour. We're still going to
786
00:49:00.880 --> 00:49:03.820
get through this anyway. Two people are dead after an
787
00:49:03.889 --> 00:49:08.570
explosion at a marijuana extraction facility near Sand Springs. 35-year-old
788
00:49:08.630 --> 00:49:11.650
Ryan Bassam has been charged with two counts of first-degree
789
00:49:11.690 --> 00:49:14.730
murder in connection with the deaths of two employees, Michael
790
00:49:14.789 --> 00:49:18.769
Newman and Stephen Scott. Those are charges. He's entitled to
791
00:49:18.809 --> 00:49:22.760
the presumption of innocence. But what investigators say they found
792
00:49:22.880 --> 00:49:26.039
afterward is where this story becomes much bigger than the
793
00:49:26.059 --> 00:49:30.860
criminal case against one man. Authorities allege hazardous chemical manufacturing
794
00:49:30.900 --> 00:49:35.099
was taking place illegally inside the facility. Investigators found large
795
00:49:35.139 --> 00:49:39.139
quantities of liquid propane and other dangerous materials. One of
796
00:49:39.179 --> 00:49:42.489
the victims reportedly told paramedics after the explosion that poor
797
00:49:42.530 --> 00:49:47.250
ventilation and the unplugging of a device contributed to what happened.
798
00:49:47.929 --> 00:49:50.489
And here's the part that immediately jumped out at me.
799
00:49:51.469 --> 00:49:55.159
According to state regulators, the Oklahoma Medical Marijuana Authority had
800
00:49:55.219 --> 00:49:59.320
inspected the business previously. OMMA says that during its most
801
00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:04.530
recent inspection, the facility appeared to be non-operational and inspectors
802
00:50:04.570 --> 00:50:08.369
found no evidence of illicit activity. The agency says that
803
00:50:08.429 --> 00:50:11.769
if inspectors had identified dangerous or illegal operations, it would
804
00:50:11.789 --> 00:50:15.489
have shut the operation down and pursued an administrative case.
805
00:50:16.380 --> 00:50:19.340
I believe them. OMMA says it has done that in
806
00:50:19.380 --> 00:50:23.880
at least 4,000 other cases. Let's say that again, 4,000
807
00:50:23.880 --> 00:50:27.679
other cases. So this isn't me sitting here saying OMMA
808
00:50:27.719 --> 00:50:32.159
doesn't inspect anybody, because apparently it does. And if 4,000
809
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:35.699
other cases are in any indication, they do so quite aggressively.
810
00:50:36.340 --> 00:50:40.340
Oklahoma has also dramatically reduced the number of licensed marijuana businesses.
811
00:50:41.179 --> 00:50:45.989
At the industry's peak, there were roughly 13,000. Today, OMA
812
00:50:46.050 --> 00:50:48.650
says there are fewer than 4,000. So the state has
813
00:50:48.710 --> 00:50:51.429
clearly been trying to clean up what became, for a while,
814
00:50:52.050 --> 00:50:58.030
the wild, wild west. But here's the uncomfortable part. Two people, yeah,
815
00:50:58.070 --> 00:51:01.630
they're still dead. And the alleged dangerous activity was not
816
00:51:01.710 --> 00:51:05.349
identified during the inspections we knew about. So what does
817
00:51:05.489 --> 00:51:08.150
regulation actually mean if the thing you're regulating can look
818
00:51:08.210 --> 00:51:11.909
compliant on inspection day and become dangerous the moment everybody leaves?
819
00:51:12.909 --> 00:51:18.860
That's not necessarily an indictment of the regulator. Sometimes people
820
00:51:18.889 --> 00:51:23.539
break the law. Sometimes businesses conceal what they're doing. Sometimes
821
00:51:24.079 --> 00:51:26.400
an inspector can walk through the front door on Tuesday
822
00:51:26.460 --> 00:51:29.900
and somebody can roll the propane tanks back in on Wednesday.
823
00:51:30.380 --> 00:51:33.320
Government cannot physically occupy every business 24 hours a day
824
00:51:34.960 --> 00:51:37.500
Nor should it. Looking at you, flock cameras, don't get
825
00:51:37.559 --> 00:51:41.000
any idea. But that's exactly why enforcement systems have to
826
00:51:41.019 --> 00:51:45.159
be designed around reality rather than paperwork. A license hanging
827
00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:48.199
on the wall doesn't make a dangerous operation safe. An
828
00:51:48.260 --> 00:51:51.679
inspection report doesn't magically prevent somebody from doing something illegal
829
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.059
after the inspector leaves. And this is especially important when
830
00:51:55.090 --> 00:51:58.769
we're talking about extraction. This isn't somebody growing marijuana plants
831
00:51:58.809 --> 00:52:03.610
in a greenhouse. Extraction can involve volatile materials, including things
832
00:52:03.650 --> 00:52:08.940
like propane. butane, other chemicals, a lot of different various equipments,
833
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:13.360
the need for serious ventilation, some electrical systems are almost
834
00:52:13.440 --> 00:52:17.679
always involved. One mistake can become everybody's problem very quickly,
835
00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:20.460
which is exactly what appears to have happened here. And
836
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:23.659
there was another warning sign. Neighboring business owner reportedly had
837
00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:30.309
previously raised concerns about hazardous conditions inside that very facility.
838
00:52:30.809 --> 00:52:33.489
Now that's where my ears go up. Because one of
839
00:52:33.550 --> 00:52:36.929
the most important questions investigators need to answer is this.
840
00:52:37.670 --> 00:52:40.190
Who knew? What did they know? And when did they
841
00:52:40.210 --> 00:52:44.550
know it? Was that complaint made to a regulator? Was
842
00:52:44.610 --> 00:52:47.369
it made to law enforcement? Was it informal? Was it
843
00:52:47.409 --> 00:52:52.420
a documented complaint? Was that complaint ever investigated? What did
844
00:52:52.480 --> 00:52:55.679
anybody ever actually see? Because there's an enormous difference between
845
00:52:55.739 --> 00:52:58.880
saying a neighboring business owner thought something looked dangerous and
846
00:52:58.960 --> 00:53:02.340
saying a government agency received a specific warning about illegal
847
00:53:02.380 --> 00:53:07.059
hazardous activity and ignored it. We don't yet have evidence
848
00:53:07.119 --> 00:53:10.500
establishing the second one. So we're not going to jump there.
849
00:53:10.800 --> 00:53:14.429
But we absolutely should find out because that's accountability. And
850
00:53:14.469 --> 00:53:16.750
this story also gives us a pretty good example of why.
851
00:53:17.289 --> 00:53:20.869
I get irritated when politicians talk about regulation as though
852
00:53:20.889 --> 00:53:25.019
the word itself means safety. The left sometimes treats regulation
853
00:53:25.059 --> 00:53:28.599
like magic. Write enough rules and nobody gets hurt. The
854
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:32.699
right sometimes responds by treating regulation like nothing but useless bureaucracy.
855
00:53:33.320 --> 00:53:38.550
Neither one of these takes is particularly intelligent. Some activities
856
00:53:38.590 --> 00:53:41.760
are dangerous enough that rules make perfect sense. If you're
857
00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:45.039
storing large quantities of volatile materials and using it to
858
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:49.599
manufacture concentrated products next door to another business, yes, somebody
859
00:53:49.639 --> 00:53:51.300
ought to be making sure you're not about to blow
860
00:53:51.340 --> 00:53:55.719
the neighborhood up. That's not tyranny, that's civilization. But the
861
00:53:55.780 --> 00:54:00.969
rule isn't the protection. Enforcement, that's the protection. Competent inspection
862
00:54:01.050 --> 00:54:05.030
is the protection. People actually following the law is the protection.
863
00:54:05.530 --> 00:54:09.869
And consequences for deliberately evading the rules are also part
864
00:54:09.909 --> 00:54:13.210
of said protections. Otherwise, you've just created a very expensive
865
00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:16.730
filing cabinet, and apparently Oklahoma learned some painful lessons during
866
00:54:16.769 --> 00:54:21.630
the explosion of the medical marijuana industry. We had licenses everywhere.
867
00:54:21.650 --> 00:54:27.980
Girl operations everywhere. Foreign ownership questions. Illegal operations hiding behind
868
00:54:28.019 --> 00:54:33.300
legal licenses. Law enforcement chasing operations across rural Oklahoma. Communities
869
00:54:33.360 --> 00:54:36.849
wondering what exactly had opened down the road. And over time,
870
00:54:36.889 --> 00:54:40.380
the state tightened things considerably. That's probably one reason we
871
00:54:40.420 --> 00:54:44.699
have fewer than 4,000 licensed businesses now instead of 13,000.
872
00:54:44.699 --> 00:54:49.150
But reducing the number doesn't necessarily eliminate the problem. It
873
00:54:49.190 --> 00:54:53.130
simply makes the remaining enforcement mission more manageable. And according
874
00:54:53.329 --> 00:54:56.949
to the probable cause affidavit, prosecutors say the alleged illegal
875
00:54:56.989 --> 00:55:01.219
manufacture of a controlled dangerous substance was a felony because
876
00:55:01.239 --> 00:55:03.900
the two men died during the alleged commission of that felony.
877
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:09.659
Prosecutors are pursuing first-degree murder under a federal law. felony
878
00:55:09.929 --> 00:55:13.150
murder theory. Again, the state still has to prove that case.
879
00:55:14.309 --> 00:55:18.769
Bassam is proved innocent, unless and until it does. But
880
00:55:18.809 --> 00:55:23.329
Michael Newman and Steven Scott, they're dead. And whatever happened
881
00:55:23.369 --> 00:55:27.570
inside that building deserves considerably more than, well, they had
882
00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:30.610
a license. Because if there's one thing tonight's stories keep
883
00:55:30.670 --> 00:55:34.690
reminding us, it's this. Government can create rules. As a
884
00:55:34.710 --> 00:55:38.199
matter of fact, it loves to create rules. And it
885
00:55:38.239 --> 00:55:40.860
can also create programs. It tends to love to do
886
00:55:40.900 --> 00:55:44.139
that too. And it absolutely loves to issue licenses because
887
00:55:44.159 --> 00:55:48.150
you have to pay for those. Government can attach conditions,
888
00:55:48.230 --> 00:55:50.530
but eventually somebody still has to make the system work
889
00:55:50.570 --> 00:55:55.369
in the real world. And when it doesn't, saying, well,
890
00:55:55.409 --> 00:55:57.949
we had a policy for that, isn't much comfort to
891
00:55:57.989 --> 00:56:00.780
the people who paid the price. This is where we'll
892
00:56:00.820 --> 00:56:03.199
leave hour one officially. When we come back, we're going
893
00:56:03.219 --> 00:56:06.519
to reset the board with something Congress decided everybody needed
894
00:56:06.559 --> 00:56:10.659
to put their name on. A vote condemning socialism. Sounds
895
00:56:10.699 --> 00:56:14.599
simple enough, right? Except because this vote happened in Washington,
896
00:56:14.619 --> 00:56:16.900
there's a wrinkle in what members were actually voting on.
897
00:56:17.460 --> 00:56:21.320
We'll sort that out when the Rick Robinson Show returns.
898
00:56:21.889 --> 00:56:32.679
Hour two, coming back in just a few minutes. Stay tuned. Uh-oh.
899
00:56:33.059 --> 00:56:36.730
Guess what day it is. Guess what day it is.
900
00:56:37.909 --> 00:56:38.349
Anybody?
901
00:56:38.710 --> 00:56:46.610
It is Wednesday, my dudes. Otherwise known as Chat Lives
902
00:56:46.650 --> 00:56:49.309
Matter Day right here live on Oklahoma City. Well, live
903
00:56:49.349 --> 00:56:53.030
here in Oklahoma City on KLR Radio, Oklahoma's home for
904
00:56:53.050 --> 00:56:57.639
a new talk. I am Rick Robinson, general manager, klrradio.com.
905
00:56:57.880 --> 00:57:01.349
And yeah. Sorry about that. I stepped out of the
906
00:57:01.369 --> 00:57:03.429
room and realized I had one of the sliders down,
907
00:57:03.469 --> 00:57:05.590
so some of the auto-ads didn't play. Those of you
908
00:57:05.630 --> 00:57:07.670
that are listening to the replay later have no idea
909
00:57:07.690 --> 00:57:09.449
what I'm talking about because the dead air will be
910
00:57:09.510 --> 00:57:13.610
edited out for you. You're welcome. Anyway, yeah, we're back.
911
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:18.059
We're live. Suddenly hearing some clicking and popping, so I
912
00:57:18.099 --> 00:57:20.800
may have to reset my port soon. Not sure what
913
00:57:20.840 --> 00:57:27.360
happened while I left the room for like four minutes. Anyway.
914
00:57:29.250 --> 00:57:31.309
All right, so I did just find out that Amish
915
00:57:31.349 --> 00:57:34.190
is a no-go for the night. So I guess here
916
00:57:34.210 --> 00:57:37.800
in about 40 minutes or so, we'll officially be done. Because, yeah.
917
00:57:38.590 --> 00:57:41.119
I still have lots more to talk about, though. So
918
00:57:41.159 --> 00:57:47.960
hang on. I don't know. I lost some of my
919
00:57:48.039 --> 00:57:58.550
stuff here, though. One moment, please. All right. I think
920
00:57:58.590 --> 00:58:00.769
my computer went a little nuts while I was in
921
00:58:00.809 --> 00:58:08.889
the other room, too. Go figure. Go figure. Go figure.
922
00:58:10.949 --> 00:58:13.900
And yes, Zelda, I am very focused because I know
923
00:58:13.940 --> 00:58:16.219
you love to troll me. And you're welcome for the
924
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:20.440
Minerkey ad, too, by the way. You're welcome. You're welcome.
925
00:58:21.460 --> 00:58:30.150
You're very, very, very, very, very, very welcome. Alright, so
926
00:58:30.170 --> 00:58:31.929
hang on, I'm trying to get back to where I
927
00:58:31.989 --> 00:58:39.409
was in my notes. I have too many variations of
928
00:58:39.469 --> 00:58:53.099
my notes here. Alright, so we're almost there. Sad thing
929
00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:54.739
is I have so many notes I'm not even sure
930
00:58:54.760 --> 00:58:56.179
we're going to get through all of them. We're going
931
00:58:56.199 --> 00:59:00.380
to go until What would be, I guess, what, 10
932
00:59:00.380 --> 00:59:05.409
o'clock Eastern? So maybe a little bit over since I
933
00:59:05.449 --> 00:59:07.590
do have some dead air to edit out. All right.
934
00:59:07.730 --> 00:59:11.329
So even though clocks all kinds of weird. for various reasons,
935
00:59:11.989 --> 00:59:15.530
supposedly new hour and new argument. And Congress has apparently
936
00:59:15.570 --> 00:59:19.050
decided that what America really needed this week was an
937
00:59:19.110 --> 00:59:22.489
official vote on socialism. The House passed a resolution yesterday
938
00:59:23.030 --> 00:59:26.860
condemning and denouncing socialism in all of its forms. The
939
00:59:26.920 --> 00:59:31.730
final vote was 220 to 192, with two members voting present.
940
00:59:32.010 --> 00:59:36.130
Every Republican who voted supported it. Eight Democrats voted yes.
941
00:59:36.570 --> 00:59:40.889
One Independent voted yes. And 192 Democrats said, give us
942
00:59:40.969 --> 00:59:44.780
that socialism, baby, because they all voted no. Now, if
943
00:59:45.000 --> 00:59:47.420
you stop reading there, you can already hear the campaign ad.
944
00:59:47.500 --> 00:59:51.599
Hundreds of Democrats refused to condemn socialism. And politically, that's
945
00:59:51.659 --> 00:59:55.800
obviously why Republicans wanted the vote. Put people on their records.
946
00:59:56.380 --> 01:00:00.179
the question. Make them choose a side. But here's the wrinkle.
947
01:00:00.800 --> 01:00:05.119
This was not simply a one-line resolution saying socialism is bad, okay?
948
01:00:05.619 --> 01:00:09.119
The resolution did more than simply condemn socialism. It also
949
01:00:09.159 --> 01:00:13.199
took aim at Democratic Socialist of America positions and tied
950
01:00:13.579 --> 01:00:17.599
the resolution to election security language, including support for the
951
01:00:17.639 --> 01:00:20.500
Save America Act. So, if you're going to tell people
952
01:00:20.519 --> 01:00:26.739
that 192 Democrats voted for socialism... While that would make
953
01:00:26.800 --> 01:00:29.929
a cool campaign ad, it's kind of too cute by half.
954
01:00:30.639 --> 01:00:34.010
They voted against a resolution that bunched condemnation of socialism
955
01:00:34.030 --> 01:00:38.110
together with support for election legislation many Democrats oppose. But
956
01:00:38.150 --> 01:00:40.369
we still never really asked ourselves the question as to
957
01:00:40.389 --> 01:00:44.989
why the Democrats oppose it. The problem is, those are
958
01:00:45.030 --> 01:00:47.840
not identical statements, so the fact that the Democrats have
959
01:00:47.860 --> 01:00:51.030
been on record... going against the Save America Act and
960
01:00:51.110 --> 01:00:54.239
never really having to explain why all of a sudden
961
01:00:55.420 --> 01:00:58.940
having to show ID is a terrible thing because everybody
962
01:00:59.059 --> 01:01:06.539
remember your vaccine passports in 2020? Anybody? Anybody? Bueller? Maybe? Yeah,
963
01:01:06.760 --> 01:01:08.980
they wanted to do that, but having to show ID
964
01:01:09.000 --> 01:01:13.820
to vote and prove that you're a citizen is too hard. Anyway.
965
01:01:16.760 --> 01:01:18.480
So I think we should be honest enough to say
966
01:01:18.519 --> 01:01:21.889
that before we start swinging that, you know, this for
967
01:01:21.909 --> 01:01:23.730
a lot of the Democrats likely had more to do
968
01:01:23.949 --> 01:01:26.429
with the Save America Act. But again, I feel like
969
01:01:26.449 --> 01:01:28.289
they get way too much of a soft pedal on that,
970
01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:33.050
especially since they wanted COVID passports. I know I already
971
01:01:33.070 --> 01:01:34.809
mentioned that earlier, but I feel like that was worth
972
01:01:34.849 --> 01:01:42.400
reporting and repeating. So just because we're willing to admit
973
01:01:42.420 --> 01:01:45.579
that There may have been a rider attached that stopped
974
01:01:45.639 --> 01:01:48.679
some of the Democrats from voting for no socialism. It
975
01:01:49.340 --> 01:01:52.380
doesn't actually make the vote politically meaningless, though, either. Quite
976
01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:56.510
the opposite. Because once you've acknowledged the wrinkle, the question
977
01:01:56.530 --> 01:01:59.369
gets better. Why are so many Democrats unwilling to vote
978
01:01:59.409 --> 01:02:02.590
for a resolution condemning socialism, even when they know exactly
979
01:02:02.650 --> 01:02:05.170
how that vote is going to be used against them?
980
01:02:05.670 --> 01:02:10.590
That's the political story. Republicans clearly believe the label has value.
981
01:02:12.110 --> 01:02:15.940
They believe socialism is becoming sufficiently visible inside the Democratic
982
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:19.599
coalition that forcing a vote helps them. And they're not
983
01:02:19.679 --> 01:02:22.980
making that up out of thin air. The resolution itself
984
01:02:23.039 --> 01:02:25.780
spends quite a bit of time talking about the Democratic
985
01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:30.119
Socialists of America and their political growth. It points to
986
01:02:30.139 --> 01:02:34.219
DSA-affiliated candidates running in races around the country. Hell, the
987
01:02:34.280 --> 01:02:38.860
occasional cortex just re-upped her DSA registration and she'd let
988
01:02:38.900 --> 01:02:44.619
it lapse for seven years. Wonder why that is. It
989
01:02:44.659 --> 01:02:48.849
points to, well, it also attacks DSA positions on voting,
990
01:02:49.190 --> 01:02:52.989
the Senate, rigged choice voting, and the entire two-party system.
991
01:02:53.409 --> 01:02:57.550
And it argues that socialism is fundamentally incompatible with American
992
01:02:57.610 --> 01:03:03.429
constitutional government. So yes, much like Islam, socialism is also
993
01:03:03.570 --> 01:03:10.659
fundamentally incompatible with American constitutional government. That is a political argument,
994
01:03:10.760 --> 01:03:14.949
but it's also a rather factually based one. It's a
995
01:03:14.989 --> 01:03:19.510
political argument Republicans apparently want Democrats answering before November. And
996
01:03:19.570 --> 01:03:23.409
here's where Democrats have a problem. For years, portions of
997
01:03:23.449 --> 01:03:26.239
the left have played a game with the word socialism.
998
01:03:26.719 --> 01:03:30.880
When Republicans attack socialism, we're told, that's not socialism, that's
999
01:03:30.980 --> 01:03:35.739
just universal health care. Or, that's not socialism, that's just
1000
01:03:35.820 --> 01:03:41.619
stronger labor policy. Or, that's not socialism, that's just Scandinavian-style
1001
01:03:41.739 --> 01:03:46.679
social democracy. Okay, fine. Then if socialism itself is not
1002
01:03:46.719 --> 01:03:51.550
what you're abdicating, why is condemning socialism so damn difficult?
1003
01:03:52.570 --> 01:03:57.369
That's the question Republicans want hanging there. Now, Democrats will argue, fairly,
1004
01:03:57.429 --> 01:04:00.690
that this resolution wasn't drafted neutrally. Of course it wasn't.
1005
01:04:01.869 --> 01:04:06.690
It was drafted by Republicans. It contains Republican election policy priorities.
1006
01:04:07.159 --> 01:04:12.210
It contains Republican interpretations of what DSA represents. It was
1007
01:04:12.269 --> 01:04:16.510
designed to create a politically uncomfortable vote. For those of
1008
01:04:16.530 --> 01:04:19.550
you that are new around here, welcome to Congress. Nobody
1009
01:04:19.630 --> 01:04:23.030
writes a trap resolution and then apologizes because somebody fell
1010
01:04:23.070 --> 01:04:26.760
into said trap resolution. But if you're a Democrat who
1011
01:04:26.820 --> 01:04:30.800
voted no, you still have to explain why. Maybe your
1012
01:04:30.860 --> 01:04:33.500
answer is, I oppose socialism, but I also oppose the
1013
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:36.019
Save America Act, and I'm not voting for a resolution
1014
01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:40.340
that bundles the two together. Okay, that's an actual answer,
1015
01:04:40.659 --> 01:04:44.139
so say that. Not sure it's a valid answer, but
1016
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:47.260
it is an answer. Or maybe your answer is, I
1017
01:04:47.280 --> 01:04:53.719
don't believe Congress should spend its time passing symbolic ideological resolutions. Um,
1018
01:04:54.239 --> 01:04:58.380
I kind of agree with that one. Fine, say that, though.
1019
01:04:59.699 --> 01:05:03.559
Maybe your answer is I don't contend democratic socialism. Also
1020
01:05:03.619 --> 01:05:06.079
fine to say that. What I don't think works anymore
1021
01:05:06.099 --> 01:05:10.679
is pretending voters are too stupid to distinguish the difference
1022
01:05:10.860 --> 01:05:13.579
in those positions. Put your name on the thing you believe.
1023
01:05:15.099 --> 01:05:18.539
That's what votes are for. And this is where symbolic
1024
01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:23.579
resolutions occasionally become useful, despite being mostly theater. They don't
1025
01:05:23.639 --> 01:05:28.070
change much law. This resolution doesn't suddenly outlaw socialism. It
1026
01:05:28.110 --> 01:05:31.449
doesn't rewrite election rules by itself. What it does is
1027
01:05:31.510 --> 01:05:36.010
force members to create a record. And records matter, especially
1028
01:05:36.070 --> 01:05:40.630
in an election year, because politicians love ambiguity. They love
1029
01:05:40.690 --> 01:05:43.570
being one thing in Washington and another thing back home.
1030
01:05:44.389 --> 01:05:48.070
They love saying, my opponent is misrepresenting me. All right,
1031
01:05:48.769 --> 01:05:52.489
then here's the roll call. Explain your vote. That's a
1032
01:05:52.570 --> 01:05:56.340
healthier argument than everybody pretending the vote never happened. Now,
1033
01:05:56.400 --> 01:05:59.159
let me also say something to Republicans. If you're going
1034
01:05:59.199 --> 01:06:03.630
to use the vote, use it honestly. Don't say 192
1035
01:06:03.630 --> 01:06:08.670
Democrats voted to abolish capitalism. Because that may be what
1036
01:06:08.690 --> 01:06:12.050
you think they said, but that's not necessarily what they said.
1037
01:06:12.530 --> 01:06:16.610
Don't say 192 Democrats endorsed the Democratic Socialists of America.
1038
01:06:18.099 --> 01:06:21.280
That's not what a no vote necessarily means, especially since
1039
01:06:21.320 --> 01:06:25.119
you didn't pass it as a clean resolution. Say exactly
1040
01:06:25.159 --> 01:06:29.960
what happened. The House considered a resolution that condemned socialism,
1041
01:06:31.019 --> 01:06:34.809
criticized DSA positions, and called for an enactment of the
1042
01:06:34.849 --> 01:06:41.289
Save America Act. 192 Democrats voted against it. Then ask
1043
01:06:41.369 --> 01:06:44.150
them why. You don't need to embellish a vote that's
1044
01:06:44.230 --> 01:06:48.349
already politically uncomfortable. The truth does plenty of lifting here.
1045
01:06:49.650 --> 01:06:52.389
And there's another reason I think this matters. Words are
1046
01:06:52.429 --> 01:06:56.369
changing faster than political institutions know how to deal with
1047
01:06:57.039 --> 01:07:00.559
Those words and their changes. For an older generation of Americans,
1048
01:07:00.619 --> 01:07:07.190
socialism carries images of centralized economic control, shortages, communist regimes,
1049
01:07:07.869 --> 01:07:12.210
government ownership, lines for toilet paper. Oh, wait, that was COVID.
1050
01:07:13.050 --> 01:07:16.079
I guess it still kind of counts. For younger voters,
1051
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:20.019
some of whom identify positively with democratic socialism, the word
1052
01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:24.760
can mean something closer to government health care, college subsidies.
1053
01:07:25.389 --> 01:07:30.260
Higher taxes on the wealthy, strong unions, public housing, more
1054
01:07:30.340 --> 01:07:36.500
aggressive redistribution. Those are not necessarily the same ideological system.
1055
01:07:37.079 --> 01:07:41.340
But politically, they're now sharing a word. Which means politicians
1056
01:07:41.400 --> 01:07:45.260
can spend an entire campaign arguing over the label without
1057
01:07:45.329 --> 01:07:48.710
ever reaching the actual policy. I'd rather reach the policy.
1058
01:07:49.250 --> 01:07:52.170
Do you want government ownership in major industries? If you do,
1059
01:07:52.250 --> 01:07:55.099
say so. If you don't, say that. Do you want
1060
01:07:55.139 --> 01:07:58.440
a larger welfare state inside a market economy? If so,
1061
01:07:58.840 --> 01:08:02.530
say so. Do you want worker ownership? Then say so.
1062
01:08:02.610 --> 01:08:06.769
Do you want higher taxation and redistribution? If so, say so.
1063
01:08:07.190 --> 01:08:10.789
Do you want capitalism with a larger social safety net?
1064
01:08:11.250 --> 01:08:15.329
If so, say that. Then we can have an intelligent argument,
1065
01:08:15.389 --> 01:08:20.199
because screaming socialist that everything government does makes the word meaningless,
1066
01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:24.479
much like how none of us really bat an eyelash
1067
01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:26.810
anymore when somebody on the left calls us a Nazi,
1068
01:08:27.350 --> 01:08:30.090
even though they're the ones that are creating Jewish hate
1069
01:08:30.149 --> 01:08:36.310
right now. And before anybody says, well, the alt-right's doing
1070
01:08:36.329 --> 01:08:39.250
it too, what's the alternative to the right, ladies and gentlemen?
1071
01:08:41.229 --> 01:08:43.210
I mean, I know we're taking things back to binary,
1072
01:08:43.229 --> 01:08:46.010
which nobody likes to talk about anymore, but the alternate
1073
01:08:46.109 --> 01:08:50.000
or the opposite of right is left in direction. So
1074
01:08:50.180 --> 01:09:03.500
the alt-right would in fact be The left. Just saying. So,
1075
01:09:03.819 --> 01:09:07.100
by the same token, though, pretending socialism has no historical
1076
01:09:07.159 --> 01:09:12.800
meaning because you want cheaper college, that's equally as unserious.
1077
01:09:13.579 --> 01:09:17.930
Words matter. Policies matter more. But elections require people to
1078
01:09:17.989 --> 01:09:22.090
know what they're voting for. So, yes, Yesterday, Republicans put
1079
01:09:22.170 --> 01:09:25.899
Democrats on the record. The vote was real. The political
1080
01:09:25.939 --> 01:09:29.659
trap was also real. The Save America Act wrinkle is real.
1081
01:09:30.119 --> 01:09:33.359
And all three things can be true simultaneously. That is
1082
01:09:33.420 --> 01:09:38.270
considerably more interesting than Democrats love socialism. Now, let's leave
1083
01:09:38.319 --> 01:09:40.949
Congress for a minute and talk about another case where
1084
01:09:41.029 --> 01:09:44.890
labels are getting ahead of reality. Because schools and police
1085
01:09:44.909 --> 01:09:47.510
departments around the country are dealing with a bizarre social
1086
01:09:47.529 --> 01:09:52.199
media trend involving... The cat in the hat. Damn it,
1087
01:09:52.340 --> 01:09:56.899
leave Dr. Seuss alone. If that sentence sounds ridiculous to you, good,
1088
01:09:57.039 --> 01:10:00.560
because it should. Except some of those posts are naming
1089
01:10:00.680 --> 01:10:05.710
actual schools, actual students, and actual communities. The artificial intelligence
1090
01:10:05.729 --> 01:10:11.310
has made producing convincing fake threat imagery so easy that
1091
01:10:11.350 --> 01:10:14.890
schools now have to spend real time determining whether a
1092
01:10:14.930 --> 01:10:18.239
cartoon character on TikTok is a joke or not. or
1093
01:10:18.310 --> 01:10:21.170
if it's something they need to treat as a possible threat.
1094
01:10:22.949 --> 01:10:27.789
That's next. Right here on the Rick Robinson Show. I
1095
01:10:27.829 --> 01:10:30.270
know it was a weird set because of timing, but
1096
01:10:30.289 --> 01:10:33.350
we're going to go ahead and take the final music
1097
01:10:33.390 --> 01:10:38.569
break of the show here in just a second. Wow,
1098
01:10:38.899 --> 01:10:42.880
I have been talking this whole time and not on camera. Okay,
1099
01:10:43.159 --> 01:10:46.800
we'll get this out of the way. Alright, alright, alright.
1100
01:10:46.819 --> 01:10:50.260
Welcome in to the final moments of the primetime edition
1101
01:10:50.279 --> 01:10:52.079
of the Rick Robinson Show. We'll be back on Friday.
1102
01:10:52.100 --> 01:10:55.479
I think hopefully tomorrow night there will be a June
1103
01:10:55.500 --> 01:10:58.260
and Rick. I am off most of tomorrow though. I
1104
01:10:58.300 --> 01:11:01.380
have some out of office things I have to deal
1105
01:11:01.420 --> 01:11:03.159
with and then I got to get caught up on
1106
01:11:03.199 --> 01:11:06.659
my writing again. I think once I'm done here because
1107
01:11:06.699 --> 01:11:08.659
I did just find out Amish is not going to
1108
01:11:08.680 --> 01:11:14.890
be joining us tonight because he's had another barn raising emergency. So, yeah,
1109
01:11:14.909 --> 01:11:17.430
it's just me. So this will be the end here
1110
01:11:17.449 --> 01:11:21.689
in just about 20 minutes or so. However, I may
1111
01:11:21.770 --> 01:11:24.069
actually retire to my room and start working on some stories.
1112
01:11:24.890 --> 01:11:31.010
At least trying to find some things to earmark for tomorrow. Maybe. Potentially. Possibly.
1113
01:11:31.029 --> 01:11:38.470
I don't really know. It's been a day. What can
1114
01:11:38.529 --> 01:11:44.449
I say? It's been a day. Hang on. I realized
1115
01:11:44.550 --> 01:11:49.130
I don't think I'm... There we go. Sorry. Anyway. So,
1116
01:11:51.069 --> 01:11:54.590
welcome back into the program. This and probably one more
1117
01:11:54.630 --> 01:11:56.409
story will be about all we have time for, but
1118
01:11:56.949 --> 01:11:58.350
I definitely want to talk about this one because I
1119
01:11:58.930 --> 01:12:01.270
haven't heard anybody else talk about it yet. You guys
1120
01:12:01.310 --> 01:12:03.149
heard about this whole cat in the hat thing? Because
1121
01:12:03.210 --> 01:12:05.529
apparently the cat in the hat, you know, that cute
1122
01:12:05.630 --> 01:12:09.289
little Dr. Seuss book? Apparently, the character from the cat
1123
01:12:09.310 --> 01:12:13.680
in the hat is threatening schools now. So, uh, Welcome
1124
01:12:13.699 --> 01:12:17.810
to 2026, y'all. Schools and police departments across the country
1125
01:12:17.819 --> 01:12:20.670
have been warning families about a viral social media trend
1126
01:12:20.710 --> 01:12:25.050
featuring creepy images and videos of the Dr. Seuss character,
1127
01:12:25.130 --> 01:12:27.869
the cat in the hat. Some are AI-generated, some are
1128
01:12:27.909 --> 01:12:31.029
digitally manipulated. The basic format is pretty simple. The cat
1129
01:12:31.069 --> 01:12:35.609
appears somewhere creepy, outside a house, near a school, at night,
1130
01:12:36.229 --> 01:12:39.210
maybe looking through a window. And then text appears saying
1131
01:12:39.270 --> 01:12:42.470
something along the lines of, I'm coming for you. Sometimes
1132
01:12:42.529 --> 01:12:46.319
it names a town. Sometimes a school. Sometimes it names
1133
01:12:46.420 --> 01:12:49.760
actual students. And that is where the stupid internet joke
1134
01:12:49.819 --> 01:12:54.699
becomes a real public safety problem. Now, let me make
1135
01:12:54.739 --> 01:12:58.479
something very clear up front. Authorities investigating many of these
1136
01:12:58.539 --> 01:13:05.100
posts have found no credible underlying threat. And that's important. Luckily,
1137
01:13:05.119 --> 01:13:07.699
we don't seem to or appear to be dealing with
1138
01:13:07.739 --> 01:13:13.060
an army of homicidal Dr. Seuss characters. We're dealing with
1139
01:13:14.699 --> 01:13:18.520
Primarily what one would call a viral hoax trend. But
1140
01:13:18.560 --> 01:13:20.579
the fact that something is fake does not mean its
1141
01:13:20.619 --> 01:13:24.680
consequences are also fake. That's the part I think matters.
1142
01:13:25.960 --> 01:13:31.020
In Sleepy Eye, Minnesota, police say both of their local
1143
01:13:31.060 --> 01:13:33.779
schools went into a soft lockdown after a TikTok threat
1144
01:13:34.260 --> 01:13:38.020
connected with a cat in the hat account was uncovered.
1145
01:13:38.100 --> 01:13:41.010
Police later said there was no credible threat to either
1146
01:13:41.069 --> 01:13:44.329
school or the public. But an adult male student was
1147
01:13:44.369 --> 01:13:47.909
taken into custody and criminal charges were being considered. Think
1148
01:13:47.949 --> 01:13:52.649
about that sequence. Somebody posts something online. Nobody knows immediately
1149
01:13:52.670 --> 01:13:55.939
whether it's real or not. A citizen reports it. Police
1150
01:13:56.000 --> 01:14:02.140
investigate it. Schools respond. Administrators communicate with parents. Officers get diverted.
1151
01:14:02.439 --> 01:14:07.920
Kids sit through a lockdown. Parents panic. And eventually, everybody discovers, apparently,
1152
01:14:07.939 --> 01:14:15.760
this was a hoax. Well, isn't that loving? except every
1153
01:14:15.859 --> 01:14:21.810
step before hoax still happened. And AI makes this worse.
1154
01:14:22.550 --> 01:14:24.930
You guys know that I'm not usually one of the
1155
01:14:25.010 --> 01:14:28.149
ones harping on AI. Not as much as some of
1156
01:14:28.170 --> 01:14:32.060
the folks in my field, anyway. But in my opinion,
1157
01:14:32.300 --> 01:14:34.960
AI makes this worse because the amount of technical skill
1158
01:14:35.020 --> 01:14:39.319
required to create believable fake imagery, that's not a thing anymore.
1159
01:14:39.399 --> 01:14:42.079
You can basically just get it to do almost anything
1160
01:14:42.699 --> 01:14:45.180
you wanted to do with a prompt, especially if you
1161
01:14:45.279 --> 01:14:48.020
try to make it innocuous enough and know how to
1162
01:14:48.090 --> 01:14:52.310
assemble it on your own later. Ten years ago, if
1163
01:14:52.350 --> 01:14:55.750
you wanted a convincing fake photograph of a recognizable character
1164
01:14:55.810 --> 01:14:58.510
standing outside your school at midnight, you needed at least
1165
01:14:58.689 --> 01:15:02.470
some ability with the ancient program some of you kids
1166
01:15:02.529 --> 01:15:06.859
may know called Photoshop. Now, you describe it with a
1167
01:15:06.880 --> 01:15:10.939
few words. AI generates it, then you post it, and
1168
01:15:10.960 --> 01:15:15.569
then you're done. That changes the economics of stupidity. And
1169
01:15:15.630 --> 01:15:18.770
I do, in fact, mean that quite literally. The cost
1170
01:15:18.810 --> 01:15:22.439
of producing convincing fake information has dropped almost to zero.
1171
01:15:22.939 --> 01:15:26.260
The cost of responding to it has not. Police still
1172
01:15:26.300 --> 01:15:30.439
cost money. School security responses, those still cost money too.
1173
01:15:31.140 --> 01:15:36.069
Investigations still burn dozens and dozens of man hours normally.
1174
01:15:36.210 --> 01:15:39.130
Parents still have to leave work to deal with lockdowns.
1175
01:15:39.609 --> 01:15:43.689
Administrators still have to communicate. And real threats still have
1176
01:15:43.729 --> 01:15:48.270
to be distinguished from fake ones. That's the asymmetric problem.
1177
01:15:48.850 --> 01:15:52.109
One idiot with a phone can consume the attention of
1178
01:15:52.109 --> 01:15:56.010
50 adults. And that gets more dangerous when you're talking
1179
01:15:56.069 --> 01:15:59.350
about schools, because schools do not have the luxury of saying,
1180
01:15:59.930 --> 01:16:04.170
it's probably fake, ignore it. Imagine being the superintendent who
1181
01:16:04.189 --> 01:16:08.010
does that. You receive an image naming your school and
1182
01:16:08.050 --> 01:16:12.159
specific kids. It looks ridiculous. So you ignore it. Then,
1183
01:16:13.189 --> 01:16:15.399
because this is the one time you chose to ignore it,
1184
01:16:15.890 --> 01:16:20.789
something actually happened. Good luck explaining. Well, most of those
1185
01:16:20.829 --> 01:16:24.689
are hoaxes. Schools have to treat threats seriously. There is
1186
01:16:24.750 --> 01:16:27.649
no the boy who cried wolf when you're dealing with schools.
1187
01:16:28.489 --> 01:16:33.090
Police also have to investigate. And everybody creating these things,
1188
01:16:33.529 --> 01:16:36.750
they all know that. Which means part of the entertainment
1189
01:16:36.789 --> 01:16:41.189
value for the person making the hoax is watching institutions react.
1190
01:16:41.539 --> 01:16:45.260
to said hoax. That's why authorities are begging people not
1191
01:16:45.340 --> 01:16:52.390
to repost the material. Because sharing it doesn't merely spread information.
1192
01:16:52.739 --> 01:16:56.329
It amplifies the disruption. And in this one instance, I
1193
01:16:56.390 --> 01:17:06.529
can honestly say sharing is not caring, kids. Kanawha County
1194
01:17:06.569 --> 01:17:09.609
Schools in West Virginia issued a notice today because one
1195
01:17:09.649 --> 01:17:13.880
of these videos referenced Kanawha County, and a specific date.
1196
01:17:14.420 --> 01:17:17.760
The district emphasized that no school had been specifically threatened,
1197
01:17:18.220 --> 01:17:21.539
schools were operating normally, and law enforcement was monitoring the situation.
1198
01:17:21.939 --> 01:17:25.640
That's exactly the kind of careful response you want. Don't panic,
1199
01:17:25.859 --> 01:17:30.119
but don't dismiss it either. Verify, report, but don't amplify.
1200
01:17:30.920 --> 01:17:34.970
And Arkansas schools have issued similar warnings. Some districts say
1201
01:17:35.010 --> 01:17:40.149
state education officials notified schools about AI-generated and altered cat-in-the-hat
1202
01:17:40.210 --> 01:17:45.699
content after a post referenced actual schools, towns, and students. Again,
1203
01:17:45.720 --> 01:17:50.380
no known credible or imminent threat in the warnings that
1204
01:17:50.399 --> 01:17:53.090
we've seen or that we're talking about, but schools still
1205
01:17:53.119 --> 01:17:55.550
have to monitor it. And here's where I want to
1206
01:17:55.590 --> 01:17:58.550
connect this to our broader AI conversation without turning it
1207
01:17:58.609 --> 01:18:03.909
into AI is evil. AI didn't invent school threats. AI
1208
01:18:03.970 --> 01:18:09.640
didn't invent teenagers doing stupid things. AI didn't invent hoaxes.
1209
01:18:10.380 --> 01:18:13.500
If you've ever met a teenager, you know humanity was
1210
01:18:13.579 --> 01:18:17.720
perfectly capable of all three without machine assistance. And if
1211
01:18:17.760 --> 01:18:20.579
you don't believe me, just remember how often we used
1212
01:18:20.619 --> 01:18:23.500
to prank call people before the invention of caller ID
1213
01:18:24.180 --> 01:18:30.750
and star 69. What AI changed is scale and plausibility.
1214
01:18:30.890 --> 01:18:33.550
You can create more and you can do it faster.
1215
01:18:33.670 --> 01:18:37.630
You can do it cheaper and sometimes more convincingly. And
1216
01:18:37.649 --> 01:18:40.630
that matters. We spent the first couple of years of
1217
01:18:40.710 --> 01:18:44.119
the generative AI debate worrying that students would use it
1218
01:18:44.199 --> 01:18:48.569
to write term papers. Turns out the more difficult problem
1219
01:18:48.590 --> 01:18:52.020
may be that anybody can now manufacture evidence of an
1220
01:18:52.060 --> 01:18:55.880
event that never actually happened. A person at a location,
1221
01:18:56.199 --> 01:18:59.579
a weapon that wasn't there, a threatening message, a fake voice,
1222
01:19:00.100 --> 01:19:03.460
a fake video, a fake screenshot. And once that enters
1223
01:19:03.520 --> 01:19:06.479
a school ecosystem, somebody has to determine whether the thing
1224
01:19:06.560 --> 01:19:10.449
on the screen corresponds to reality or not. And that's
1225
01:19:10.550 --> 01:19:13.270
a skill we're going to have to teach. Not eventually.
1226
01:19:13.289 --> 01:19:17.850
We're going to have to teach it now. Media literacy
1227
01:19:17.970 --> 01:19:21.329
used to mean don't believe everything you read on the internet. Unless,
1228
01:19:21.369 --> 01:19:25.170
of course, Abe Lincoln put it there. That sentence is
1229
01:19:25.210 --> 01:19:29.750
almost quaint now. Now it has to mean do not
1230
01:19:29.810 --> 01:19:35.079
assume an image proves the event pictured actually occurred. That's
1231
01:19:35.119 --> 01:19:40.880
a much harder psychological adjustment. Because humans trust pictures. especially
1232
01:19:40.939 --> 01:19:45.260
male humans. Male humans process information at the visual spectrum
1233
01:19:45.319 --> 01:19:52.649
about 10 times more than female humans do. We trust
1234
01:19:52.829 --> 01:19:57.449
video even more, though. Our brains treat visual evidence as
1235
01:19:57.489 --> 01:20:03.319
something closer to direct observation, but generative AI is severing
1236
01:20:03.359 --> 01:20:08.149
that relationship. Seeing isn't necessarily believing anymore. And kids need
1237
01:20:08.170 --> 01:20:11.350
to understand something else. Creating a fake threat because you
1238
01:20:11.380 --> 01:20:14.880
think it's funny doesn't guarantee the law will share your
1239
01:20:14.899 --> 01:20:18.319
sense of humor. Police departments around the country are explicitly
1240
01:20:18.359 --> 01:20:23.739
warning that threats, even hoaxes, can bring criminal consequences. If
1241
01:20:23.779 --> 01:20:26.960
your joke causes people reasonably to believe a school may
1242
01:20:27.000 --> 01:20:30.579
be attacked, but it was AI, it's not necessarily a
1243
01:20:30.640 --> 01:20:35.060
magic eraser. And neither is, I didn't mean it. Intent
1244
01:20:35.159 --> 01:20:40.560
matters legally. depending upon the charge. Context matters. The specific
1245
01:20:40.600 --> 01:20:44.979
words matter. State laws matter. But once you're naming actual
1246
01:20:45.050 --> 01:20:49.449
schools or actual students, you have left harmless meme territory.
1247
01:20:49.810 --> 01:20:52.630
So here's my advice to parents tonight. If your kid
1248
01:20:52.710 --> 01:20:55.689
sees one of these things, don't have them repost it
1249
01:20:56.250 --> 01:21:01.029
to ask, is this real? Screenshot it if necessary. Report
1250
01:21:01.069 --> 01:21:05.210
it to the authorities and contact the school. Then stop
1251
01:21:05.229 --> 01:21:09.789
spreading it. Because viral hoaxes depend upon everybody becoming an
1252
01:21:09.989 --> 01:21:15.189
unpaid distribution network. And here's my advice to teenagers. Please
1253
01:21:15.470 --> 01:21:18.149
don't make the FBI explain to your parents that the
1254
01:21:18.189 --> 01:21:20.619
reason you're sitting in an interview room is because you
1255
01:21:20.640 --> 01:21:25.619
thought Murder Cat was hilarious. Murder Cat and Lol Cat,
1256
01:21:25.680 --> 01:21:29.659
not the same, kids. There are easier ways to disappoint
1257
01:21:29.699 --> 01:21:33.460
your mom. But beneath the joke is something we actually
1258
01:21:33.500 --> 01:21:37.369
need to take seriously. Our institutions are entering a world
1259
01:21:37.489 --> 01:21:42.149
where producing fake evidence is becoming radically easier, while verifying
1260
01:21:42.590 --> 01:21:48.050
reality remains rather costly. That gap is going to affect
1261
01:21:48.130 --> 01:21:56.989
more than schools. It could affect things like elections, wars, crime, markets, reputations,
1262
01:21:57.250 --> 01:22:00.909
emergency response, pretty much any situation where people have to
1263
01:22:00.930 --> 01:22:04.979
make decisions quickly based on information arriving through a screen.
1264
01:22:06.270 --> 01:22:09.489
And the technology isn't going backwards, so the answer cannot
1265
01:22:09.569 --> 01:22:14.569
simply be bad AI. Because the tools, they're already here.
1266
01:22:15.810 --> 01:22:18.869
The answer has to include learning how to authenticate information,
1267
01:22:19.529 --> 01:22:23.970
teaching kids how consequential false content can be, and punishing
1268
01:22:24.029 --> 01:22:30.020
people appropriately when they deliberately weaponize hoaxes against actual communities.
1269
01:22:32.859 --> 01:22:37.039
Because Murder Cat will eventually disappear. Some other stupid trend,
1270
01:22:37.420 --> 01:22:43.899
that'll replace it, though. The underlying capability stays. Now, what
1271
01:22:43.939 --> 01:22:47.579
happens when institutions have to separate actual danger from noise?
1272
01:22:50.939 --> 01:22:54.699
In Britain, authorities weren't dealing with an AI-generated threat. They
1273
01:22:54.739 --> 01:22:59.539
were dealing with real victims, real offenders, real warnings, and
1274
01:22:59.579 --> 01:23:03.819
years of arguments over what the institutions knew, what they counted,
1275
01:23:04.229 --> 01:23:07.189
and what they were willing to say publicly. The grooming
1276
01:23:07.229 --> 01:23:11.449
gang scandal is back in the news, folks. And some
1277
01:23:11.510 --> 01:23:14.350
previously closed cases are now being sent back to police
1278
01:23:15.010 --> 01:23:20.859
for another look. And that's next. Right here on the
1279
01:23:20.880 --> 01:23:22.979
Rick Robinson Show. Like I said, this will probably be
1280
01:23:23.439 --> 01:23:25.840
the last bit we get to. So before we get
1281
01:23:25.880 --> 01:23:28.000
into this, I do want to remind you of our
1282
01:23:28.060 --> 01:23:30.270
new friends at Nectar Bed. Since I never changed it,
1283
01:23:30.279 --> 01:23:35.510
the QR code should still be up on the screen.
1284
01:23:36.050 --> 01:23:39.569
Now look. I know you guys get podcasters all the
1285
01:23:39.609 --> 01:23:42.069
time talking to you about things that they're told to
1286
01:23:42.109 --> 01:23:44.250
talk to you about this, that and the other. I'm
1287
01:23:44.310 --> 01:23:46.229
not saying I don't get a little bit of a
1288
01:23:46.250 --> 01:23:48.270
kickback if you guys order the bed. That's not what
1289
01:23:48.300 --> 01:23:50.420
I'm saying. What I am saying is I slept on
1290
01:23:50.460 --> 01:23:53.180
a thing for almost 10 days before I started officially
1291
01:23:53.319 --> 01:23:55.220
really talking to you about it other than a few
1292
01:23:55.260 --> 01:23:57.600
dry rooms to see if I could get used to
1293
01:23:57.619 --> 01:24:01.840
doing live reads. Now, this thing is absolutely amazing. And
1294
01:24:01.899 --> 01:24:03.649
for what you're going to pay for it, it's worth
1295
01:24:03.710 --> 01:24:06.710
every penny. Mainly, and the one thing I haven't really
1296
01:24:06.750 --> 01:24:12.399
talked about tonight, is their 365-night trial on the mattress.
1297
01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:14.260
So even if you're just looking for a new, more
1298
01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:16.840
comfortable mattress, they're probably going to be one of the
1299
01:24:17.039 --> 01:24:19.800
best options you can go for. Because if you don't
1300
01:24:19.840 --> 01:24:21.659
like it, you get to test it out for a
1301
01:24:21.699 --> 01:24:23.720
year before you say, never mind, I want my money back.
1302
01:24:23.739 --> 01:24:25.760
That gives you a year to find a better one.
1303
01:24:26.479 --> 01:24:28.560
Why would you not take them up on that? And
1304
01:24:28.729 --> 01:24:31.609
even if you get the base like I've got, I
1305
01:24:31.630 --> 01:24:36.340
think you get a 180-night trial on that. Not to
1306
01:24:36.380 --> 01:24:41.890
mention that most of these beds are typically somewhere between $ 5, 000
1307
01:24:40.489 --> 01:24:43.390
to $ 7, 000 by the time you get all the little
1308
01:24:43.409 --> 01:24:46.010
extra bells and whistles. I will tell you there are
1309
01:24:46.109 --> 01:24:50.529
some additional bells and whistles, but the base model typically
1310
01:24:50.609 --> 01:24:53.840
for the bed to get even just the regular adjustable
1311
01:24:53.880 --> 01:24:56.739
base and the standard mattress is below $ 2, 000 right now.
1312
01:24:57.939 --> 01:25:00.239
And that QR code gives you an extra $ 100 off.
1313
01:25:01.920 --> 01:25:04.710
So I'm not telling you to buy it, but I'm
1314
01:25:04.729 --> 01:25:07.550
telling you, If I can sleep on it, and some
1315
01:25:07.609 --> 01:25:09.630
of you know how much sleep I didn't used to get,
1316
01:25:09.649 --> 01:25:13.100
that should tell you something. All right, so before the break,
1317
01:25:13.140 --> 01:25:15.920
we were talking about a world where institutions have to
1318
01:25:15.960 --> 01:25:19.039
figure out whether a threat is real. And as we
1319
01:25:19.079 --> 01:25:21.739
get back into the show, just again, if you are
1320
01:25:21.779 --> 01:25:24.180
interested at all, make sure you scan that QR code.
1321
01:25:24.539 --> 01:25:26.479
It'll take you straight to the Nectar website. You can
1322
01:25:26.500 --> 01:25:28.140
check out what they're offering, and if you like it,
1323
01:25:28.500 --> 01:25:33.060
you get an extra $ 100 off. So in Britain, the
1324
01:25:33.079 --> 01:25:35.720
problem was almost the opposite, because the victims were real.
1325
01:25:35.979 --> 01:25:38.199
The abuse was also real, and so were the warnings.
1326
01:25:38.770 --> 01:25:41.670
And for years, one of the most disturbing questions has
1327
01:25:41.689 --> 01:25:45.770
been whether the institutions responsible for protecting children were willing
1328
01:25:45.829 --> 01:25:52.409
to describe honestly what they were seeing. This, ladies and gentlemen,
1329
01:25:52.470 --> 01:25:55.069
is the grooming gang scandal, and we've talked about it before.
1330
01:25:55.619 --> 01:25:57.420
I want to be very careful with the language here
1331
01:25:57.479 --> 01:25:59.720
because this is one of those subjects where people on
1332
01:25:59.899 --> 01:26:03.329
every side have spent years either exaggerating what the evidence
1333
01:26:03.390 --> 01:26:06.609
proves or pretending the evidence doesn't exist at all. Neither
1334
01:26:06.649 --> 01:26:10.270
helps the victims. Here's what we actually know. Britain's National
1335
01:26:10.310 --> 01:26:17.680
Crime Agency created Operation Beaconport to review previously closed group-based
1336
01:26:17.739 --> 01:26:21.840
child sexual exploitation cases. This isn't some blogger reopening old
1337
01:26:21.899 --> 01:26:26.880
newspaper clippings. The NCA describes it as an extraordinarily broad
1338
01:26:26.960 --> 01:26:31.579
national review. The cases being examined generally involve two or
1339
01:26:31.619 --> 01:26:37.619
more suspects, physical contact, sexual offenses, living suspects, and investigations
1340
01:26:37.659 --> 01:26:40.979
where police previously decided to take no further action. By
1341
01:26:41.020 --> 01:26:46.180
last November, 1,273 investigations from 23 police forces had been
1342
01:26:46.239 --> 01:26:51.500
referred into the review. 236 were prioritized because they involved
1343
01:26:51.560 --> 01:26:55.529
rape allegations. And in June, the NCAA announced that reviewers
1344
01:26:55.590 --> 01:26:59.340
had already identified closed cases from eight police force areas
1345
01:26:59.439 --> 01:27:03.060
where there may still be a viable line of inquiry.
1346
01:27:03.479 --> 01:27:07.539
Those files were sent back to local forces for possible reinvestigation.
1347
01:27:08.520 --> 01:27:11.060
Let's stop there for a second. These aren't allegations nobody
1348
01:27:11.100 --> 01:27:15.020
ever reported. These are closed cases. Somebody looked at them before.
1349
01:27:15.579 --> 01:27:18.479
Somebody made a decision before. And now a national review
1350
01:27:18.560 --> 01:27:21.319
is saying maybe there was more investigative work to do.
1351
01:27:22.659 --> 01:27:26.279
crumb muncher that does not mean every original decision was
1352
01:27:26.359 --> 01:27:31.899
corrupt corruption and idiocy are not necessarily the same thing
1353
01:27:32.420 --> 01:27:34.710
it does not mean every closed case will produce a
1354
01:27:34.750 --> 01:27:37.510
charge it does not mean every allegation will prove to
1355
01:27:37.550 --> 01:27:42.090
be true but when you're reopening previously closed cases especially
1356
01:27:42.489 --> 01:27:45.880
child sexual exploitation cases because lines of inquiry may have
1357
01:27:45.899 --> 01:27:48.920
been missed the obvious question is why were they missed
1358
01:27:48.960 --> 01:27:52.859
the first time and that question It's much uglier when
1359
01:27:52.899 --> 01:27:56.130
you look at what official British inquiries have been saying
1360
01:27:56.210 --> 01:28:00.329
for years. The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse found
1361
01:28:00.470 --> 01:28:04.630
that exploitation by organized networks was not rare and was
1362
01:28:04.710 --> 01:28:09.050
not confined to a handful of notorious towns. It also
1363
01:28:09.130 --> 01:28:12.590
found that police and local authorities often had lousy data
1364
01:28:13.130 --> 01:28:16.979
about the networks they were dealing with. And when it
1365
01:28:17.020 --> 01:28:22.109
came to ethnicity, in the areas that The inquiry examined,
1366
01:28:22.399 --> 01:28:27.640
none consistently collected ethnicity data for both victims and alleged perpetrators.
1367
01:28:29.520 --> 01:28:33.189
Let's pause right there and just think about how absurd
1368
01:28:33.239 --> 01:28:37.369
that is. For years, Britain had a politically explosive national
1369
01:28:37.470 --> 01:28:40.930
argument over whether particular ethnic patterns exist in these crimes,
1370
01:28:41.409 --> 01:28:44.029
and the government's answer too often amounted to, we don't
1371
01:28:44.060 --> 01:28:46.760
have good enough data to tell you. Well, why not?
1372
01:28:47.720 --> 01:28:50.560
If the public is asking the question... If the police
1373
01:28:50.600 --> 01:28:54.340
are investigating the crimes, if courts are prosecuting defendants, if
1374
01:28:54.399 --> 01:28:57.680
local authorities are interacting with victims, why are you not
1375
01:28:57.760 --> 01:29:01.560
collecting the information necessary to answer the question accurately? That's
1376
01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:05.939
not bigotry. That's data. And if the data proves there
1377
01:29:06.010 --> 01:29:10.430
is no meaningful pattern, good. Then collect the data and
1378
01:29:10.520 --> 01:29:14.210
say so. If the data, however, proves, much like I
1379
01:29:14.250 --> 01:29:16.770
think it would, which is why they never collected it,
1380
01:29:16.810 --> 01:29:19.489
that there is a meaningful pattern in a particular place,
1381
01:29:20.060 --> 01:29:24.710
or type of offending, then say that too. The answer
1382
01:29:24.750 --> 01:29:27.890
cannot be, we were afraid somebody might misuse the information,
1383
01:29:27.930 --> 01:29:30.449
so we decided not to collect it, because we thought
1384
01:29:30.489 --> 01:29:35.130
it was better not to know. Because ignorance, ladies and gentlemen,
1385
01:29:35.229 --> 01:29:39.829
doesn't protect children. Now, Britain commissioned another major review under
1386
01:29:40.949 --> 01:29:44.770
Baroness Louise Casey, and the Casey audit reached a conclusion
1387
01:29:44.789 --> 01:29:48.260
that is almost unbelievable, considering how long this argument has
1388
01:29:48.300 --> 01:29:53.439
been going on. The national data is still inadequate, particularly
1389
01:29:53.720 --> 01:29:57.970
the ethnicity data. The audit says ethnicity was not recorded
1390
01:29:58.020 --> 01:30:03.090
for roughly two-thirds of perpetrators in some national data sets.
1391
01:30:03.909 --> 01:30:13.050
Say that again. Two-thirds. So after Rothram, after Rochdale, after Telford,
1392
01:30:13.710 --> 01:30:19.029
after Oxfordshire, after years of public outrage, after multiple investigations,
1393
01:30:19.670 --> 01:30:25.600
After parliamentary debate, after previous recommendations saying collect better data,
1394
01:30:26.079 --> 01:30:29.640
Britain still could not give the public a definitive national picture.
1395
01:30:30.199 --> 01:30:34.760
That's not a small administrative problem. That's an institutional failure
1396
01:30:35.359 --> 01:30:38.760
at a basic level. And the Casey audit says exactly
1397
01:30:38.819 --> 01:30:43.149
that in more polite language. It calls the continuing lack
1398
01:30:43.289 --> 01:30:47.850
of reliable data a failure of public policy over many years. Now,
1399
01:30:47.930 --> 01:30:50.649
here's where we need to be equally careful in the
1400
01:30:50.720 --> 01:30:54.119
other direction. Poor national data does not mean we know nothing.
1401
01:30:55.159 --> 01:30:59.800
Casey's audit found that in police areas where ethnicity data
1402
01:30:59.840 --> 01:31:05.390
was collected more completely, including Greater Manchester, South Yorkshire, and
1403
01:31:05.409 --> 01:31:11.649
West Yorkshire, there was disproportionately in group-based child sexual exploitation
1404
01:31:11.710 --> 01:31:16.619
offending involving men of Asian ethnicity. That is an official
1405
01:31:16.890 --> 01:31:20.750
government audit saying. But the same audit also says the
1406
01:31:20.789 --> 01:31:24.029
national data remains too incomplete to make a definitive statement
1407
01:31:24.090 --> 01:31:28.050
about the ethnic profile of offenders across the entire country.
1408
01:31:29.630 --> 01:31:33.069
Both facts matter, because this subject has been poisoned by
1409
01:31:33.130 --> 01:31:37.069
people demanding one of two conclusions. Either ethnicity has absolutely
1410
01:31:37.109 --> 01:31:40.010
nothing to do with anything, anyone asking is a racist
1411
01:31:40.090 --> 01:31:46.739
because everything is racist, or... All grooming gangs are Pakistani Muslims.
1412
01:31:48.880 --> 01:31:51.680
Neither is supported by the evidence, even if the evidence
1413
01:31:51.720 --> 01:31:53.909
is a bit light in a few cases. What the
1414
01:31:53.970 --> 01:31:59.430
official evidence supports is more complicated. Some notorious local networks
1415
01:31:59.550 --> 01:32:04.270
have shown very significant over-representation of men from Pakistani or
1416
01:32:04.329 --> 01:32:09.050
broader Asian backgrounds. Better local data sets in several force
1417
01:32:09.350 --> 01:32:14.380
areas continue to show disproportionate offending among Asian men. but
1418
01:32:14.449 --> 01:32:18.199
Britain failed for years to collect enough consistent national information
1419
01:32:18.239 --> 01:32:21.460
to tell us precisely how large that pattern is nationally.
1420
01:32:22.079 --> 01:32:26.550
That's the scandal. Not because ethnicity is the only relevant characteristic,
1421
01:32:27.050 --> 01:32:31.369
because it isn't. The overwhelming majority of perpetrators are male.
1422
01:32:31.829 --> 01:32:36.130
Victims are often vulnerable girls. Children in care have been
1423
01:32:36.189 --> 01:32:40.819
particularly vulnerable. Online grooming has changed how offenders find victims.
1424
01:32:41.439 --> 01:32:47.199
Poverty levels matter. Family instability also matters. Institutional competence, that
1425
01:32:47.260 --> 01:32:51.500
definitely matters. There are offenders from multiple racial and ethnic backgrounds.
1426
01:32:52.060 --> 01:32:55.489
All of that can be true. But you cannot improve
1427
01:32:55.590 --> 01:33:00.970
prevention by deciding beforehand which facts are socially acceptable to measure.
1428
01:33:01.989 --> 01:33:05.449
And this is where the allegations of political correctness enters
1429
01:33:05.510 --> 01:33:11.369
the story. There have been repeated claims from survivors, investigators, journalists,
1430
01:33:11.489 --> 01:33:16.199
and officials that authorities sometimes hesitated to confront particular offenders
1431
01:33:16.600 --> 01:33:21.239
because they feared accusations of racism or damage to community relations.
1432
01:33:22.020 --> 01:33:25.739
You have to evaluate those claims case by case. Do
1433
01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:29.399
not convert that into every police officer knew and covered
1434
01:33:29.420 --> 01:33:33.479
it up because of political correctness. While that may wind
1435
01:33:33.520 --> 01:33:36.739
up being an accurate statement. We don't necessarily know that yet,
1436
01:33:37.310 --> 01:33:40.270
so jumping to that conclusion now would be considered sloppy.
1437
01:33:40.689 --> 01:33:44.390
But it is equally sloppy to pretend fear of racial
1438
01:33:44.449 --> 01:33:50.060
tension played no role anywhere. British inquiries have documented institutional reluctance,
1439
01:33:50.619 --> 01:33:55.420
failures to share information, victim-blaming poor leadership, and inadequate understanding
1440
01:33:55.460 --> 01:33:58.140
of the offending. And here's the part that should make
1441
01:33:58.199 --> 01:34:02.640
everybody furious. Some of those girls weren't merely ignored. they
1442
01:34:02.659 --> 01:34:05.680
were treated as though they were participating in their own abuse.
1443
01:34:06.479 --> 01:34:11.010
For years, authority used language like child prostitute. Think about
1444
01:34:11.050 --> 01:34:15.369
the moral inversion contained in that phrase alone. Child prostitute.
1445
01:34:16.289 --> 01:34:20.109
An adult man exploits a vulnerable child, and somehow the
1446
01:34:20.149 --> 01:34:24.750
child gets assigned an occupation. Britain eventually corrected that thinking.
1447
01:34:25.329 --> 01:34:29.750
Children are victims of sexual exploitation. But changing the terminology
1448
01:34:29.850 --> 01:34:33.029
after the fact doesn't give anybody those years back. And
1449
01:34:33.069 --> 01:34:37.659
now Britain has created a statutory independent inquiry into grooming games.
1450
01:34:38.720 --> 01:34:44.680
Baroness Ann Longfield chairs it. The stated purpose is to
1451
01:34:44.739 --> 01:34:50.510
investigate systemic failures in how institutions responded to group-based child
1452
01:34:50.550 --> 01:34:55.449
sex exploitation and abuse. Good. Do the inquiry. Collect the evidence.
1453
01:34:55.550 --> 01:35:00.029
Subpoena what needs subpoenaing. Listen to the survivors. Follow the records.
1454
01:35:00.489 --> 01:35:03.739
And wherever the facts lead, go there. Because we have
1455
01:35:03.800 --> 01:35:07.640
reached the point where another inquiry that produces another recommendation
1456
01:35:07.699 --> 01:35:11.000
saying agencies should share information better and collect more complete
1457
01:35:11.039 --> 01:35:15.399
data would almost be parody at this point. And how
1458
01:35:15.420 --> 01:35:17.699
many times does a government get to discover that it
1459
01:35:17.770 --> 01:35:20.899
should know what is happening before we ask why it
1460
01:35:20.930 --> 01:35:24.649
didn't bother finding out? And there's an independent report floating
1461
01:35:24.689 --> 01:35:28.970
around this story as well. Independent MP Rupert Lowe published
1462
01:35:29.010 --> 01:35:32.760
his own rape gang inquiry report in June. It contains
1463
01:35:32.819 --> 01:35:37.880
survivor testimony, recommendations, and very aggressive claims about institutional cover-up
1464
01:35:38.439 --> 01:35:46.989
and defender demographics. It is worth reading, but I would
1465
01:35:47.029 --> 01:35:50.810
suggest you have a strong stomach. Lowe's report is not
1466
01:35:50.869 --> 01:35:56.989
the official statutory inquiry, however. In one number from that report,
1467
01:35:57.189 --> 01:35:59.300
an estimate of roughly 250,000 victims should not be repeated
1468
01:35:59.319 --> 01:36:04.479
as though The British government has established it as fact
1469
01:36:04.529 --> 01:36:08.380
because it hasn't. That figure is an extrapolation. The government's
1470
01:36:08.500 --> 01:36:11.960
own Casey audit says the national scale cannot currently be
1471
01:36:12.399 --> 01:36:17.029
quantified reliably because the underlying data is inadequate. And frankly,
1472
01:36:17.069 --> 01:36:20.270
we don't need to exaggerate this story. The established facts
1473
01:36:20.310 --> 01:36:24.550
are horrifying enough. Children were exploited. Authorities repeatedly failed the
1474
01:36:24.609 --> 01:36:28.600
victims of that exploitation. Institutions failed to share information that
1475
01:36:28.640 --> 01:36:31.920
could have protected the children of that exploitation. Data was
1476
01:36:31.960 --> 01:36:37.069
badly collected, misused, mishandled, and again, if collected properly, could
1477
01:36:37.090 --> 01:36:41.250
have helped children who were being exploited. Previously closed investigations
1478
01:36:41.289 --> 01:36:45.250
were being reviewed again, and after years of national controversy,
1479
01:36:45.289 --> 01:36:48.680
the government still says it cannot provide a definitive national
1480
01:36:48.720 --> 01:36:52.939
demographic picture. You don't need a speculative quarter million number
1481
01:36:53.470 --> 01:36:57.090
to make that scandalous. The first scandal is the abuse.
1482
01:36:57.609 --> 01:37:00.930
The second scandal is that the institutions responsible for protecting
1483
01:37:01.010 --> 01:37:04.850
children spent years arguing over whether naming the pattern was
1484
01:37:04.909 --> 01:37:08.489
more dangerous than allowing the pattern to continue. And maybe
1485
01:37:08.550 --> 01:37:12.729
that's the lesson. You don't protect minority communities by refusing
1486
01:37:12.770 --> 01:37:16.609
to identify criminals who happen to come from those minority communities.
1487
01:37:17.029 --> 01:37:20.939
You don't protect social cohesion by leaving children with the
1488
01:37:21.000 --> 01:37:25.739
impression that some offenders are politically inconvenient to discuss, and
1489
01:37:25.800 --> 01:37:29.390
in some cases to the children appear untouchable. And you
1490
01:37:29.439 --> 01:37:32.850
certainly don't fight racism by allowing entire communities to be
1491
01:37:32.909 --> 01:37:36.869
judged through rumor because government refused to collect enough information
1492
01:37:37.310 --> 01:37:41.350
to replace rumor with facts. Transparency is the antidote to that.
1493
01:37:41.649 --> 01:37:46.439
Measure it. Publish it. Put the denominators next to the numerator.
1494
01:37:47.930 --> 01:37:53.760
Explain what the data can in fact prove. Explain what
1495
01:37:53.800 --> 01:37:59.659
it can't prove. And prosecute offenders as actual offenders. Because
1496
01:37:59.739 --> 01:38:02.640
a child being raped is not a diversity management problem.
1497
01:38:02.680 --> 01:38:06.159
It's a crime. And the identity of the defender should
1498
01:38:06.239 --> 01:38:10.060
never become more institutionally important than the safety of the victim.
1499
01:38:10.560 --> 01:38:13.979
Britain has another opportunity now to finally get this right.
1500
01:38:14.649 --> 01:38:17.960
The NCA is reviewing the old files. The statutory inquiry
1501
01:38:18.000 --> 01:38:21.260
is examining systemic failures. The case he uttered has already
1502
01:38:21.359 --> 01:38:24.420
identified the data problem. So let's see whether this time
1503
01:38:24.539 --> 01:38:27.869
Britain counts the thing and says that it says it
1504
01:38:27.909 --> 01:38:31.119
wants to stop and actually gets it right. Because we
1505
01:38:31.140 --> 01:38:34.760
didn't know becomes considerably less convincing after somebody has told
1506
01:38:34.800 --> 01:38:44.409
you the same thing for 20 odd years. Now, after that,
1507
01:38:44.850 --> 01:38:47.369
and as we close, I'm going to say this. I'm
1508
01:38:47.390 --> 01:38:49.369
going to try to give everybody a blood pressure minute.
1509
01:38:49.729 --> 01:38:52.020
But the next story I'm about to talk about, while
1510
01:38:52.060 --> 01:38:53.720
I'm only going to do a brief hit, probably isn't
1511
01:38:53.739 --> 01:38:55.020
going to do much for it because we're going to
1512
01:38:55.039 --> 01:38:59.899
come back across the Atlantic. And Lindsey Clancy, that jury's
1513
01:38:59.920 --> 01:39:06.720
still deadlocked. So I can envision there being a biography
1514
01:39:06.779 --> 01:39:11.470
written about this at some point. And I'm pretty sure
1515
01:39:11.689 --> 01:39:16.770
the title of. the biography or the, if it's a
1516
01:39:16.789 --> 01:39:18.810
story about the trial, I don't necessarily know who we
1517
01:39:18.850 --> 01:39:21.649
call the biography. But as far as the trial itself,
1518
01:39:21.869 --> 01:39:23.720
the title of the book, because I'm assuming at some
1519
01:39:23.729 --> 01:39:26.520
point there will be a book about it, will probably be,
1520
01:39:27.140 --> 01:39:33.659
this is what happens when your peers are retarded. The
1521
01:39:33.720 --> 01:39:38.850
Lindsay Clancy trial. The judge has given them basically what's
1522
01:39:38.859 --> 01:39:41.670
the judicial version of, go back there and try again.
1523
01:39:42.229 --> 01:39:45.850
Apparently that wasn't enough courtroom drama because a spectator has
1524
01:39:45.890 --> 01:39:48.930
now been charged with allegedly filming the jurors. Because of
1525
01:39:49.010 --> 01:39:51.689
course she has. And that's what we're going to talk
1526
01:39:51.729 --> 01:39:56.979
about in closing. In Massachusetts, where Lindsay Clancy trial has
1527
01:39:57.020 --> 01:40:00.300
now reached that stage where everybody involved probably wakes up
1528
01:40:00.359 --> 01:40:03.739
wondering what fresh layer of insanity the day intends to provide.
1529
01:40:03.779 --> 01:40:06.460
The jury has been deliberating now for five days, and
1530
01:40:06.520 --> 01:40:10.210
as of tonight, still no verdict. They have now told
1531
01:40:10.289 --> 01:40:14.340
Judge William Sullivan twice, that they are deadlocked. So today,
1532
01:40:14.399 --> 01:40:16.920
the judge gave them what's known in Massachusetts as a
1533
01:40:17.939 --> 01:40:22.250
Tui Rodriguez instruction. Other places sometimes call this kind of
1534
01:40:22.310 --> 01:40:27.130
thing an Allen charge, or rather dramatically, a dynamite charge. Basically,
1535
01:40:27.170 --> 01:40:31.069
go back, talk to each other, re-examine your positions. Listen
1536
01:40:31.109 --> 01:40:34.000
seriously to the people who disagree with you, but don't
1537
01:40:34.319 --> 01:40:39.020
surrender an honestly held belief simply because everybody would like
1538
01:40:39.060 --> 01:40:41.609
to go home. which is pretty much the judicial version
1539
01:40:41.649 --> 01:40:45.630
of every family Thanksgiving I've ever attended. The jury goes
1540
01:40:45.689 --> 01:40:51.210
back Thursday, interestingly enough, and if they still cannot reach
1541
01:40:51.250 --> 01:40:53.630
a unanimous verdict, eventually the judge may have to declare
1542
01:40:53.689 --> 01:40:56.970
a mistrial. Then the prosecutors get to decide whether they're
1543
01:40:56.989 --> 01:41:00.289
doing this entire thing again. Remember what's actually being decided.
1544
01:41:00.369 --> 01:41:04.810
Lindsay Clancy does not dispute that she killed her three children. Cora,
1545
01:41:04.869 --> 01:41:09.229
who was five, Dawson, who was three, and Colin, eight
1546
01:41:09.270 --> 01:41:13.869
months old. The central dispute is criminal responsibility. She claims
1547
01:41:13.909 --> 01:41:17.029
she has none because the voices or the voice told
1548
01:41:17.090 --> 01:41:20.590
her to do it. However, the voice didn't come up
1549
01:41:21.170 --> 01:41:23.909
in any interviews or anything else until much, much later.
1550
01:41:24.470 --> 01:41:28.649
Here's my problem with all of this. First of all,
1551
01:41:28.989 --> 01:41:32.989
there are nine women on this jury. I think that's
1552
01:41:33.029 --> 01:41:37.170
taking jury of your peers a little too literally. Because
1553
01:41:37.210 --> 01:41:39.090
when is the last time you got nine women to
1554
01:41:39.149 --> 01:41:46.600
agree on anything? Just saying. Just saying. And look, even
1555
01:41:46.659 --> 01:41:49.779
if you can't, I mean, look, I don't even understand
1556
01:41:49.819 --> 01:41:52.939
why this is taking this long. I get it in Massachusetts.
1557
01:41:52.979 --> 01:41:57.300
It's weird because legally the prosecution has to prove that
1558
01:41:57.340 --> 01:42:00.369
she was in possession of her faculties for the whole
1559
01:42:00.850 --> 01:42:03.939
insanity plea not to work. Which is back ass words.
1560
01:42:04.079 --> 01:42:06.090
It's almost as back ass words as the fact that
1561
01:42:06.149 --> 01:42:10.050
it took until today in Utah to finally decide, hey,
1562
01:42:10.090 --> 01:42:12.210
we're going to have that trial about that guy that
1563
01:42:12.350 --> 01:42:15.649
shot that other guy after all. A year later. And yes,
1564
01:42:15.710 --> 01:42:18.430
I'm talking about Charlie Kirk. I'm not going to mention
1565
01:42:18.470 --> 01:42:21.729
the other ass ass name. Primarily because I don't like
1566
01:42:21.750 --> 01:42:27.939
the fact that he has my last name. Anyway. Anyway. Anyway,
1567
01:42:28.239 --> 01:42:30.100
but yeah, this thing is just nuts. So I'm not
1568
01:42:30.119 --> 01:42:32.310
going to talk about it too much because the show's
1569
01:42:32.350 --> 01:42:34.390
almost done and I'll be ticked off if I talk
1570
01:42:34.430 --> 01:42:36.010
about it too much longer. But I did want to
1571
01:42:36.029 --> 01:42:38.750
talk about the children for a second. They didn't deserve
1572
01:42:38.829 --> 01:42:44.310
any of this. Children are angels sent to Earth. My
1573
01:42:44.350 --> 01:42:47.989
children changed my life in ways that I still cannot
1574
01:42:48.069 --> 01:42:53.130
quantify to this day. So the fact that someone could
1575
01:42:53.189 --> 01:42:56.949
be blessed with that gift, not once, not twice, but thrice.
1576
01:42:57.810 --> 01:43:00.109
And then suddenly decide one day that she was going
1577
01:43:00.140 --> 01:43:02.300
to take them out and take herself out at the
1578
01:43:02.319 --> 01:43:07.260
same time. That's my problem with the whole insanity defense.
1579
01:43:07.920 --> 01:43:10.199
If she really believed the world was going to be
1580
01:43:10.239 --> 01:43:12.479
better off without her children in it and they were
1581
01:43:12.500 --> 01:43:15.069
going to be safer because they weren't in it, why
1582
01:43:15.109 --> 01:43:16.949
did she feel the need to try to take her
1583
01:43:16.970 --> 01:43:24.210
own life too? Just saying. This whole trial is a
1584
01:43:25.609 --> 01:43:27.229
And the reason I'm not talking about it too much
1585
01:43:27.289 --> 01:43:31.260
is I'm pretty sure Front Porch Forensics is back next
1586
01:43:31.340 --> 01:43:33.899
week or this coming Saturday. And I think they plan
1587
01:43:33.939 --> 01:43:36.220
on talking about it. So I'll let them do the
1588
01:43:36.260 --> 01:43:38.779
true crime thing. I'm just going to tell you that
1589
01:43:38.800 --> 01:43:40.300
as somebody that used to wear a badge and a
1590
01:43:40.340 --> 01:43:45.659
gun under the jail or hanging from a lamppost are
1591
01:43:45.699 --> 01:43:48.039
the only two options I have for this woman as
1592
01:43:48.079 --> 01:43:50.600
far as I'm concerned. That is going to do it
1593
01:43:50.640 --> 01:43:53.260
for this particular episode of The Rick Robinson Show. I
1594
01:43:53.279 --> 01:43:57.680
will be back Friday. First pushing button, well, hopefully tomorrow night, actually,
1595
01:43:58.180 --> 01:44:00.520
for Jen and Rick. I'll have to touch base with
1596
01:44:00.560 --> 01:44:03.680
Jen after errands tomorrow and find out for sure. But
1597
01:44:03.739 --> 01:44:07.569
I will officially be back Friday. First pushing buttons for
1598
01:44:08.149 --> 01:44:11.350
the Jesus for Dummies crew, then doing the Rick Robinson
1599
01:44:11.390 --> 01:44:14.810
show at 1 p.m. Eastern, followed by the weekend news
1600
01:44:14.869 --> 01:44:17.489
roundup at 3 p.m. Eastern. And hopefully, he said, she said,
1601
01:44:17.529 --> 01:44:20.220
we'll be back as well. I have to admit, I
1602
01:44:20.300 --> 01:44:24.890
took a frightening night off. Interestingly enough, as we closed
1603
01:44:24.930 --> 01:44:29.149
the show, went to dinner with a friend. Not too
1604
01:44:29.189 --> 01:44:36.050
far from my house. And ran into my ex-wife. Life
1605
01:44:36.130 --> 01:44:39.989
is just weird. First time I do anything out in
1606
01:44:40.060 --> 01:44:44.300
public in months. And the restaurant I go to, my
1607
01:44:44.340 --> 01:44:49.619
ex-wife was also at. That's the Wednesday Chat Lives Matter
1608
01:44:49.659 --> 01:44:51.899
edition of the show. Again, I'll be back hopefully tomorrow night.
1609
01:44:53.779 --> 01:44:56.399
and then again on Friday. But we're going to get
1610
01:44:56.460 --> 01:44:58.140
out of here. Enjoy the rest of your night, and
1611
01:44:58.180 --> 01:44:59.779
thank you for those of you that are hanging out
1612
01:44:59.800 --> 01:45:02.680
with us. I know tonight was a little rough, but
1613
01:45:04.420 --> 01:45:08.699
I'm still getting used to having everything on several sliders. Anyway,
1614
01:45:09.340 --> 01:45:19.750
have a great night, everybody. Bye! We'll be right back.