AV: I run a show that says the guests come first, always. Kathleen and Derek run a show that says the people come first. One of us has the arrow pointed backwards, and we've got 15 minutes to find out who. They host shifting people. They've talked to more ops leaders than just about anyone, which is why exactly I wanted to argue with them today. rule before we start, I'm going to make you two disagree with each other before I even jump in. So Kathleen, I'm gonna start with you. Best case for people first, you've got. Not the LinkedIn version, the one you'd defend in a room full of operators who think that might be soft.
Kathleen: mean the natural one is if you're taking care of your people, they're taking care of your guests, right? And I think if you flip it and say anything else that anyone else comes bef above people, you go into a really scary place where no one trusts each other and culture gets thrown out the window and you end up in one of those restaurants that has stealing and people not trusting each other and just bad things happening. So I think it all hinges on trust and people first is ⁓ i I know they say like restaurants are f kinda like families. I think it has to do with that building that culture.
AV: So Derek, before I touch that, I want you to find the whole if somebody wanted to tear that apart what she said, where would you start?
Derek Williamson: Yeah, ⁓ good prompt. I think, know, there there are elements that I obviously, you know, I am also people first a lot of the time. You know, the the big question is, well, there are trade-offs. Like there's always trade-offs if you are prioritizing people. And, know, Anthony, in ⁓ in of your episodes you talked about ⁓ reducing, you know, or or sorry, ⁓ having ⁓ fewer on ⁓ so ⁓ They can have more tables so that they can maximize how much they're getting in tips. Or like that's a perfect example where we are directly trading off one for the other. And, you at the same side, like there's another where like it's not guest first ⁓ beyond everything, obviously we can't have like ⁓ one server one table, ⁓ even though in theory that might be like absolute best best service model. But I think that like the really important thing here is that. you have to keep in mind the guest, know, the the guest as the priority before you factor in, ⁓ you the the employee. Like i I think there's there's an important prioritization there, right? Because you can't be trading off one for the other.
AV: I think it's interesting, like it's it's it's good to know that you're not entirely aligned, right? Because it there's there's so many principles that you can look at when you think when you say you're the people or guests first. But here's where I live. I think that the arrow's backwards. The employee experience, I don't believe, is the source. I think it's more the echo. People stay because the place wins with guests. Like, take the guests away, and the best culture in the world will empty out in a month. Because you need to have those guests to drive that. So what I'm curious from your perspective is like. What are the studies or your perspective from the people side say about that? And Derek, I'll start with you or Cap, what if you want to jump in? I'm just intrigued as to your perspective on that statement.
Derek Williamson: Yeah. I think like you can always zoom out further and say, like, you don't have employees showing up to work, we also don't have a business, right? I think the right alignment ⁓ is you prioritize guests in the business. And and to your point, Anthony, ⁓ saying that like we are going to deliver a top notch guest experience and then everything else kind of comes ⁓ comes that. but if zoom out further ⁓ The first thing you actually have to do is align your team to that, which is how I see of like the people first aspect. you know, I really think like, you know, if we go to that that example of where servers would like more tables so they can maximize their tips, there's a misalignment somewhere in Why are they having that thought in the first place? Right. Somewhere along the line, you haven't the right expectations with your people. And so they're questioning your decision making in the moment. rather than seeing why in the long run it's equally important to prioritize the guests. So, you know, I think you are right in the sort of the transactional, like the day-to-day piece, but if you zoom out, there's always a people ⁓ that is is driving that. That's how I kind of see it.
AV: Sure. Kathleen, what do you think?
Kathleen: I mean, you said if you take the guests away, there is no business, right? But we kind of saw both things happen in COVID, right? You took the guests away, the business started to fall, but then because the business started to fall, there were no you had to lay off employees. And then the right after COVID, there were no employees, right? We're in this big like we can no one can find employees and g businesses suffer. Businesses close because there were no employees as well. So it works both ways and I think in general we get to a better place of is happy, everyone is satisfied, everyone makes the most money. If is employee first over guests, because it the employee like it it's all it's all built on the idea that like there's this trust that like if you take care of your employee, your employee will take care of your guest, right? And if we don't have that, I think a lot of like the societal norms break down.
AV: That's fair. ⁓ and I think we could probably obviously go, we could trade frameworks until we run out of feed and ⁓ you know nobody listening might not change their mind. But I want to drag this down to like a an actual where operators live. It's a lot of the audience that we have. So I want to give you a night, a real one, and I want to just understand like what your answer would be, not necessarily a philosophy. So let's just say it's it's a Thursday night, last reservation is at 9:30, close at 10. At 9:45, Reservation doesn't show up, restaurant's empty. So we power everything down, we wrap everything up, we put all in the walk-in, it's labeled, team has changed out of their work clothes, right? Someone's already got their keys out, ready to leave, and at 10 ⁓ one the door opens. Closing time is 10. And that reservation walks in soaking wet, caught in a storm, went the wrong way, been driving in circles. So if we close at 10 and we think about the philosophy of making sure that, you know, our employees are always heard first. And I'll start, Kathleen, with you. What would you do in that scenario?
Kathleen: In that scenario, I never would have let them close up and shut things down before ten o'clock because I actually do believe that if any than is posted ⁓ is tragic and that it's gonna be bad for the business. So in that scenario, i ⁓ no would have shut things down before ten o'clock in my restaurant, if I owned a restaurant, right? But ⁓ Okay, thing happened ten fifteen. ⁓ I I would take the guest, ⁓ but
AV: So what if it was ten fifteen and you already closed down, same thing happened?
Derek Williamson: Mm.
Kathleen: But I would do something for my employees to help to help them out, right? I would let them come in late the next day. I would I would there's a there's a tit for tat, right? Like you have to if they're gonna do something go above and beyond for your guest, you do something for them as well.
Derek Williamson: No. I might have it like not completely different perspective, but you know, I think like i I mean it's so standard in in restaurants, right? Like you're gonna start closing down before you've actually like, you know, technically close the doors, right? I think as long as i you know, if if a customer has come in, no if a guest has come into your restaurant, you serve them. I think communicate with them like the expectations, like, hey, we We've already kind of shut certain things down, but we're happy to fire fire some things up, you know, etc. I think there's a bigger ⁓ So this is know, I'm not trying to cop out, but I think there's always a realignment with your team as to why that is important, right? Because the reality is if you turn away that ten ⁓ one guest, they're much more likely to write the worst Google review in ⁓ you know, and and really do damage to your business, right? Which I think where there's like a people misalignment, right? If employees aren't bought into why that ⁓ a problem, then we've we've got more work to do with with the team. That's how I kind of see it.
AV: Yeah, and and and answering both is is political and I get that. Like there's a yes, I'll take the guest, and I would I would have expected that to be the answer. But then we're gonna tell our team, you know, do something extra for the team. To me, obviously everybody would love to do both. But the 1001 or 1015, whatever the example is, that's a decision where I think you have to decide on one line or the other. Because if it happens every single night, that message to your team starts to become null and void, right? So Both, I think, is what we say when we don't really want to admit the side necessarily, of like we have to go one or the other. and we kind of indirectly already told the side because we said we would serve the guests, right? Which which does come first. So I think everybody stands on the same line in terms of that experience. I'm just kind of calling it like out loud. but made your team might change back into the clothes and we fire back up, whatever it may be, right? We go through that scenario. So ⁓ at point, Technically being people served first, regardless of what happens with a conversation, broke a little bit of a principle, right? Because we've we've said this is a priority. So like which one do you think, which principle in terms of which what we preach about our people do you think is broken when we make that decision at 1015 or 1001 to take that guest?
Derek Williamson: yeah, I mean I think there is ⁓ You have to think of like what are employees what's your team prioritizing in that moment, right? At that point, they want to go home. ⁓ not the servers aren't like making any more money. you're asking them to go beyond that of duty. And like, by the way, I mean, like, throughout you know, the just the day-to-day, you know, you have servers who are asked to do all kinds of things that aren't like tip generating, etcetera, right? you know, I think there's ⁓ That's a hard one. I I want to think on that more. Kathleen, I want you to weigh in too. ⁓ because ⁓ there's an interesting ⁓ I'm thinking on this a bit more.
Kathleen: I think if with the ten ⁓ one problem if you say, okay, yes, we're gonna take this guest. I I I don't think anything is necessarily broken in the people first model because I think in the people first model everyone understands that ultimately like ⁓ like the business has to run, right? And it is detrimentally bad for the business if you're not gonna let this thirty top come in when they had a reservation. I think it would be I think it's different if it's a different scenario where it's someone that didn't have a reservation that came in ten minutes late, right? I think you have to you the thing is you have to be fair to your team about which ones you let slide and which ones you don't, right? If you're gonna let every single thing slide, I think that loses trust with your team on saying, yes, I'm guest over team. But if it if it is wise, right, if you do it based on, okay, they had a reservation, this makes sense, then I think your team can then understand. So I don't think anything in it is necessarily broken in this scenario because you're making a smart decision that maybe the whole team would make themselves.
AV: Yeah, I guess what I guess what I'm saying is like right at 7 p.m. on a full book, guests first and people first look identical. Right. I think that's why this argument really never gets settled. Because at 1001 or 1015, whatever time you want to say, it's the only moment they really can come apart to an extent. Right. And when they come apart, I think we land on the same side of like take care of the guest, and then there might be a follow-up afterwards. I I don't think that's necessarily the guest side or me winning. I think it's just the arrow showing that the arrow does have to point to the guest. But we can obviously do other things on the employee side as well, right? So ⁓
Kathleen: Yep. Yep. And I think the arrow should point to the guest, not profit, right? Because I not just money over everything. Because I think that's where it gets to people the employee is then like, well, they care more about money over me. It's if it's a legitimately a per another person, a guest taking care of them, I think that is understand that, but ⁓ over people is ⁓ as widely accepted, right?
AV: A little eager. I think it's totally fair. And it and an early mentor of mine said, look at your PL and put a zero at the top and tell them what the bottom says. Like you right, that that is the most important number, right? Sales are king. And I think what we're saying, like that's the argument at our cleanest. but now I kind of want to understand at its ugliest. ⁓ this this segment's called the cut. And Derek, I know you listened to the first episode, so you know it's coming. So I'm gonna start with you. ⁓ but what's the cost that you trimmed on the people side or you've seen trimmed on the people side quietly?
Kathleen: Yeah.
AV: That you think the guest could feel, like the one that never really makes the case study, like what is that thing that you've seen cut or you've cut yourself that was the people side decision but the guest could feel?
Derek Williamson: Yeah, well I have a a direct example because my my background is QSR and so I had an ice cream store, right? ⁓ and there's a really interesting phenomenon that happens when ⁓ in the ice cream business, which is a little unique. ⁓ you have very specific times and times of day when you are going to be very, very busy, and then you're kind of like dead throughout the rest of the day, right? and frequently there was this trade-off of how big do I let the line get? before I will add more staff. there's this really it's constant push and pull because I'm ⁓ you every staff member that you're adding, they're not 100% efficient because it's a small shop and they're bumping into each other. ⁓ And can only get your line through ⁓ through business like fast enough, right? Like the guests can only move and make their decisions at a certain pace. but that is one where you ⁓ like in ideal world you would put 12 people on. Because every single person who comes up to the line, you want to be able to greet them and say, hey, just so you know, like this line isn't gonna take that long. Here's a menu, here's like some ways you can sort of be prepared to order so we can move you through as quickly as possible. But the reality is like then I wouldn't have a business. Cause I also, like in the ice cream business, that's the only time you have to actually make money. That's the only way you get your labor into a good percentage. ⁓ and so that's where I've seen it like be a real challenge is you have to be willing to accept that the guest experience is gonna be than ideal because I simply can't put twenty people on and have them talk to every single person who's waiting in line.
AV: Kathleen, same question for you.
Kathleen: Yeah. it's tough. The 'cause the one I I immediately think of is the one you mentioned on your last podcast where or last episode ⁓ it's I've put twelve people on the floor on a Friday night because it that it was gonna be better for the guest, even though I knew that the servers were gonna make less money, right? ⁓ 'cause I knew it was gonna be busy, I knew the patio was gonna be set, like that was the exact scenario.
AV: ⁓ so this is the last segment and it's the one that I I end every episode on. today I'm aiming kind of at at your world, not mine, but where do you think the people ops world is lying to itself right now? Not not restaurants like your corner of the world. The thing that everyone kind of nods along with at the conferences and is like, ⁓ yeah, sure, that you both quietly think is actually false. Kathleen, I'll start with you.
Kathleen: Yeah. think it's ⁓ that data from surveys or like employee net promoter scores can tell the truth about what's actually going on with employees in the restaurants and with culture, right? I think everyone thinks that ⁓ ⁓ all that data is useful and it's gonna tell you all about those the stores and what's going on with the employees. And I really think we don't know like that doesn't tell anything because we all know that employees lie on those things, they don't trust them. ⁓ ⁓ the only way to really get to the bottom of the truth or what's happening in restaurant culture is to talk to employees or better yet, just be around when they're talking amongst themselves. Right. That is really the only way you're gonna get the truth. ⁓ and being in the store. ⁓ Yep.
AV: The relationship business, right? I mean, that's what it that's what it all comes down to. Derek, what about you?
Derek Williamson: Yeah. Yeah, it's very similar to, you know, Anthony, what you did with with your guests and putting your name and number on the receipts, right? Like you you kinda have to do the same thing with employees. ⁓ mine's a little different. ⁓ i every conference I've gone to with people, HR, whatever, it's always about adding more. you know, in terms of employee benefits and compensation and all these other things that you can do to position yourself as an employer, like flexible schedules, blah, blah, blah, blah. my very strongly held opinion. Is that you should as an employer, like whether you're people ops, HR, or like an operator, have a strong position. Like, ⁓ know, be very specific on we are going to be the best at this one specific thing when it comes to our team, ⁓ we're gonna be kind of okay at best on the other things, right? The reality is you can't, you know, only a few employers can be the top paying employers in an industry. So ⁓ are you offering that is different? Right. Like maybe you are insanely flexible in terms of your scheduling. So you're really good as a second job for people. ⁓ and run with that as a strategy. Like you can build a whole compensation know ⁓ package around like having a very strong on like this ⁓ is we ⁓ work for, ⁓ and not we're not all things to all people. you know. Way too many businesses I think try and just like they're just constantly adding more things to the list employees like either they don't care or they use like only a small number of ⁓ employees actually ever take advantage of it.
AV: Yeah, the more you add, I was on my team, I'd rather be an A student at two things than a B student at ten. And and you really can't take on more than a few things and be an A student, right? So like I
Derek Williamson: Yeah.
AV: So th the two of you close each of your shows by handing your listeners something to go try this week. And I don't want to rob my audience of that. So in like one or two sentences each, give them the one thing that you would do. Derek, we'll start with you.
Derek Williamson: Nice. I'll go first. I mean just riffing off of that, so I would challenge folks to think about and I can't think of all five off the top of my head, but there are there are five sort of different pieces of compensation. If you look up like what are the five, I think it's called like the five salaries. it lists them all out. It's like financial, you know, sort of ⁓ mental well-being, etc. but ⁓ look at all of those categories ⁓ and then pick Pick the one that you think you can actually be top in your industry, at least in your area at, ⁓ to rework your ⁓ sort of people strategy around that. But like pick one lane and the best at that thing. ⁓ and have the courage to kind of suck at the rest. And that's okay, right? Like we don't have a 401k because that's not we're best at, right? We're a better part-time job. So we know that folks aren't gonna stay ⁓ as long Save for retirement. Kathleen.
Kathleen: I guess mine to stay on theme of like guest over people or people over guest, right? if you're going into the more territory of like, okay, we're gonna put guests first over our employees, define how long you're doing that for or what parameters are there, right? So that it doesn't ⁓ into this long term just always like culture of everything over employees, right? Because I think there's a slippery slope into money over employees ⁓ everything over employees. so I think if you're gonna go guest over employees and your ten on one test is proves that like yes there are exact scenarios where that is going to happen, I think putting parameters on it is a good idea.
AV: you guys got me on your show first. So if you guys want to give it a listen, any listeners, feel free to go jump in. So I guess we can call ourselves even at this point. ⁓ I appreciate you guys battling it out and talking through it. And ⁓ great to have you guys on. And to everybody listening, somewhere tonight, a dining room is powering down, someone got their keys out, doors about to open at 1001. What happens next isn't policy, it's who you are. This is the return. Did you earn it?
Kathleen: mean the natural one is if you're taking care of your people, they're taking care of your guests, right? And I think if you flip it and say anything else that anyone else comes bef above people, you go into a really scary place where no one trusts each other and culture gets thrown out the window and you end up in one of those restaurants that has stealing and people not trusting each other and just bad things happening. So I think it all hinges on trust and people first is ⁓ i I know they say like restaurants are f kinda like families. I think it has to do with that building that culture.
AV: So Derek, before I touch that, I want you to find the whole if somebody wanted to tear that apart what she said, where would you start?
Derek Williamson: Yeah, ⁓ good prompt. I think, know, there there are elements that I obviously, you know, I am also people first a lot of the time. You know, the the big question is, well, there are trade-offs. Like there's always trade-offs if you are prioritizing people. And, know, Anthony, in ⁓ in of your episodes you talked about ⁓ reducing, you know, or or sorry, ⁓ having ⁓ fewer on ⁓ so ⁓ They can have more tables so that they can maximize how much they're getting in tips. Or like that's a perfect example where we are directly trading off one for the other. And, you at the same side, like there's another where like it's not guest first ⁓ beyond everything, obviously we can't have like ⁓ one server one table, ⁓ even though in theory that might be like absolute best best service model. But I think that like the really important thing here is that. you have to keep in mind the guest, know, the the guest as the priority before you factor in, ⁓ you the the employee. Like i I think there's there's an important prioritization there, right? Because you can't be trading off one for the other.
AV: I think it's interesting, like it's it's it's good to know that you're not entirely aligned, right? Because it there's there's so many principles that you can look at when you think when you say you're the people or guests first. But here's where I live. I think that the arrow's backwards. The employee experience, I don't believe, is the source. I think it's more the echo. People stay because the place wins with guests. Like, take the guests away, and the best culture in the world will empty out in a month. Because you need to have those guests to drive that. So what I'm curious from your perspective is like. What are the studies or your perspective from the people side say about that? And Derek, I'll start with you or Cap, what if you want to jump in? I'm just intrigued as to your perspective on that statement.
Derek Williamson: Yeah. I think like you can always zoom out further and say, like, you don't have employees showing up to work, we also don't have a business, right? I think the right alignment ⁓ is you prioritize guests in the business. And and to your point, Anthony, ⁓ saying that like we are going to deliver a top notch guest experience and then everything else kind of comes ⁓ comes that. but if zoom out further ⁓ The first thing you actually have to do is align your team to that, which is how I see of like the people first aspect. you know, I really think like, you know, if we go to that that example of where servers would like more tables so they can maximize their tips, there's a misalignment somewhere in Why are they having that thought in the first place? Right. Somewhere along the line, you haven't the right expectations with your people. And so they're questioning your decision making in the moment. rather than seeing why in the long run it's equally important to prioritize the guests. So, you know, I think you are right in the sort of the transactional, like the day-to-day piece, but if you zoom out, there's always a people ⁓ that is is driving that. That's how I kind of see it.
AV: Sure. Kathleen, what do you think?
Kathleen: I mean, you said if you take the guests away, there is no business, right? But we kind of saw both things happen in COVID, right? You took the guests away, the business started to fall, but then because the business started to fall, there were no you had to lay off employees. And then the right after COVID, there were no employees, right? We're in this big like we can no one can find employees and g businesses suffer. Businesses close because there were no employees as well. So it works both ways and I think in general we get to a better place of is happy, everyone is satisfied, everyone makes the most money. If is employee first over guests, because it the employee like it it's all it's all built on the idea that like there's this trust that like if you take care of your employee, your employee will take care of your guest, right? And if we don't have that, I think a lot of like the societal norms break down.
AV: That's fair. ⁓ and I think we could probably obviously go, we could trade frameworks until we run out of feed and ⁓ you know nobody listening might not change their mind. But I want to drag this down to like a an actual where operators live. It's a lot of the audience that we have. So I want to give you a night, a real one, and I want to just understand like what your answer would be, not necessarily a philosophy. So let's just say it's it's a Thursday night, last reservation is at 9:30, close at 10. At 9:45, Reservation doesn't show up, restaurant's empty. So we power everything down, we wrap everything up, we put all in the walk-in, it's labeled, team has changed out of their work clothes, right? Someone's already got their keys out, ready to leave, and at 10 ⁓ one the door opens. Closing time is 10. And that reservation walks in soaking wet, caught in a storm, went the wrong way, been driving in circles. So if we close at 10 and we think about the philosophy of making sure that, you know, our employees are always heard first. And I'll start, Kathleen, with you. What would you do in that scenario?
Kathleen: In that scenario, I never would have let them close up and shut things down before ten o'clock because I actually do believe that if any than is posted ⁓ is tragic and that it's gonna be bad for the business. So in that scenario, i ⁓ no would have shut things down before ten o'clock in my restaurant, if I owned a restaurant, right? But ⁓ Okay, thing happened ten fifteen. ⁓ I I would take the guest, ⁓ but
AV: So what if it was ten fifteen and you already closed down, same thing happened?
Derek Williamson: Mm.
Kathleen: But I would do something for my employees to help to help them out, right? I would let them come in late the next day. I would I would there's a there's a tit for tat, right? Like you have to if they're gonna do something go above and beyond for your guest, you do something for them as well.
Derek Williamson: No. I might have it like not completely different perspective, but you know, I think like i I mean it's so standard in in restaurants, right? Like you're gonna start closing down before you've actually like, you know, technically close the doors, right? I think as long as i you know, if if a customer has come in, no if a guest has come into your restaurant, you serve them. I think communicate with them like the expectations, like, hey, we We've already kind of shut certain things down, but we're happy to fire fire some things up, you know, etc. I think there's a bigger ⁓ So this is know, I'm not trying to cop out, but I think there's always a realignment with your team as to why that is important, right? Because the reality is if you turn away that ten ⁓ one guest, they're much more likely to write the worst Google review in ⁓ you know, and and really do damage to your business, right? Which I think where there's like a people misalignment, right? If employees aren't bought into why that ⁓ a problem, then we've we've got more work to do with with the team. That's how I kind of see it.
AV: Yeah, and and and answering both is is political and I get that. Like there's a yes, I'll take the guest, and I would I would have expected that to be the answer. But then we're gonna tell our team, you know, do something extra for the team. To me, obviously everybody would love to do both. But the 1001 or 1015, whatever the example is, that's a decision where I think you have to decide on one line or the other. Because if it happens every single night, that message to your team starts to become null and void, right? So Both, I think, is what we say when we don't really want to admit the side necessarily, of like we have to go one or the other. and we kind of indirectly already told the side because we said we would serve the guests, right? Which which does come first. So I think everybody stands on the same line in terms of that experience. I'm just kind of calling it like out loud. but made your team might change back into the clothes and we fire back up, whatever it may be, right? We go through that scenario. So ⁓ at point, Technically being people served first, regardless of what happens with a conversation, broke a little bit of a principle, right? Because we've we've said this is a priority. So like which one do you think, which principle in terms of which what we preach about our people do you think is broken when we make that decision at 1015 or 1001 to take that guest?
Derek Williamson: yeah, I mean I think there is ⁓ You have to think of like what are employees what's your team prioritizing in that moment, right? At that point, they want to go home. ⁓ not the servers aren't like making any more money. you're asking them to go beyond that of duty. And like, by the way, I mean, like, throughout you know, the just the day-to-day, you know, you have servers who are asked to do all kinds of things that aren't like tip generating, etcetera, right? you know, I think there's ⁓ That's a hard one. I I want to think on that more. Kathleen, I want you to weigh in too. ⁓ because ⁓ there's an interesting ⁓ I'm thinking on this a bit more.
Kathleen: I think if with the ten ⁓ one problem if you say, okay, yes, we're gonna take this guest. I I I don't think anything is necessarily broken in the people first model because I think in the people first model everyone understands that ultimately like ⁓ like the business has to run, right? And it is detrimentally bad for the business if you're not gonna let this thirty top come in when they had a reservation. I think it would be I think it's different if it's a different scenario where it's someone that didn't have a reservation that came in ten minutes late, right? I think you have to you the thing is you have to be fair to your team about which ones you let slide and which ones you don't, right? If you're gonna let every single thing slide, I think that loses trust with your team on saying, yes, I'm guest over team. But if it if it is wise, right, if you do it based on, okay, they had a reservation, this makes sense, then I think your team can then understand. So I don't think anything in it is necessarily broken in this scenario because you're making a smart decision that maybe the whole team would make themselves.
AV: Yeah, I guess what I guess what I'm saying is like right at 7 p.m. on a full book, guests first and people first look identical. Right. I think that's why this argument really never gets settled. Because at 1001 or 1015, whatever time you want to say, it's the only moment they really can come apart to an extent. Right. And when they come apart, I think we land on the same side of like take care of the guest, and then there might be a follow-up afterwards. I I don't think that's necessarily the guest side or me winning. I think it's just the arrow showing that the arrow does have to point to the guest. But we can obviously do other things on the employee side as well, right? So ⁓
Kathleen: Yep. Yep. And I think the arrow should point to the guest, not profit, right? Because I not just money over everything. Because I think that's where it gets to people the employee is then like, well, they care more about money over me. It's if it's a legitimately a per another person, a guest taking care of them, I think that is understand that, but ⁓ over people is ⁓ as widely accepted, right?
AV: A little eager. I think it's totally fair. And it and an early mentor of mine said, look at your PL and put a zero at the top and tell them what the bottom says. Like you right, that that is the most important number, right? Sales are king. And I think what we're saying, like that's the argument at our cleanest. but now I kind of want to understand at its ugliest. ⁓ this this segment's called the cut. And Derek, I know you listened to the first episode, so you know it's coming. So I'm gonna start with you. ⁓ but what's the cost that you trimmed on the people side or you've seen trimmed on the people side quietly?
Kathleen: Yeah.
AV: That you think the guest could feel, like the one that never really makes the case study, like what is that thing that you've seen cut or you've cut yourself that was the people side decision but the guest could feel?
Derek Williamson: Yeah, well I have a a direct example because my my background is QSR and so I had an ice cream store, right? ⁓ and there's a really interesting phenomenon that happens when ⁓ in the ice cream business, which is a little unique. ⁓ you have very specific times and times of day when you are going to be very, very busy, and then you're kind of like dead throughout the rest of the day, right? and frequently there was this trade-off of how big do I let the line get? before I will add more staff. there's this really it's constant push and pull because I'm ⁓ you every staff member that you're adding, they're not 100% efficient because it's a small shop and they're bumping into each other. ⁓ And can only get your line through ⁓ through business like fast enough, right? Like the guests can only move and make their decisions at a certain pace. but that is one where you ⁓ like in ideal world you would put 12 people on. Because every single person who comes up to the line, you want to be able to greet them and say, hey, just so you know, like this line isn't gonna take that long. Here's a menu, here's like some ways you can sort of be prepared to order so we can move you through as quickly as possible. But the reality is like then I wouldn't have a business. Cause I also, like in the ice cream business, that's the only time you have to actually make money. That's the only way you get your labor into a good percentage. ⁓ and so that's where I've seen it like be a real challenge is you have to be willing to accept that the guest experience is gonna be than ideal because I simply can't put twenty people on and have them talk to every single person who's waiting in line.
AV: Kathleen, same question for you.
Kathleen: Yeah. it's tough. The 'cause the one I I immediately think of is the one you mentioned on your last podcast where or last episode ⁓ it's I've put twelve people on the floor on a Friday night because it that it was gonna be better for the guest, even though I knew that the servers were gonna make less money, right? ⁓ 'cause I knew it was gonna be busy, I knew the patio was gonna be set, like that was the exact scenario.
AV: ⁓ so this is the last segment and it's the one that I I end every episode on. today I'm aiming kind of at at your world, not mine, but where do you think the people ops world is lying to itself right now? Not not restaurants like your corner of the world. The thing that everyone kind of nods along with at the conferences and is like, ⁓ yeah, sure, that you both quietly think is actually false. Kathleen, I'll start with you.
Kathleen: Yeah. think it's ⁓ that data from surveys or like employee net promoter scores can tell the truth about what's actually going on with employees in the restaurants and with culture, right? I think everyone thinks that ⁓ ⁓ all that data is useful and it's gonna tell you all about those the stores and what's going on with the employees. And I really think we don't know like that doesn't tell anything because we all know that employees lie on those things, they don't trust them. ⁓ ⁓ the only way to really get to the bottom of the truth or what's happening in restaurant culture is to talk to employees or better yet, just be around when they're talking amongst themselves. Right. That is really the only way you're gonna get the truth. ⁓ and being in the store. ⁓ Yep.
AV: The relationship business, right? I mean, that's what it that's what it all comes down to. Derek, what about you?
Derek Williamson: Yeah. Yeah, it's very similar to, you know, Anthony, what you did with with your guests and putting your name and number on the receipts, right? Like you you kinda have to do the same thing with employees. ⁓ mine's a little different. ⁓ i every conference I've gone to with people, HR, whatever, it's always about adding more. you know, in terms of employee benefits and compensation and all these other things that you can do to position yourself as an employer, like flexible schedules, blah, blah, blah, blah. my very strongly held opinion. Is that you should as an employer, like whether you're people ops, HR, or like an operator, have a strong position. Like, ⁓ know, be very specific on we are going to be the best at this one specific thing when it comes to our team, ⁓ we're gonna be kind of okay at best on the other things, right? The reality is you can't, you know, only a few employers can be the top paying employers in an industry. So ⁓ are you offering that is different? Right. Like maybe you are insanely flexible in terms of your scheduling. So you're really good as a second job for people. ⁓ and run with that as a strategy. Like you can build a whole compensation know ⁓ package around like having a very strong on like this ⁓ is we ⁓ work for, ⁓ and not we're not all things to all people. you know. Way too many businesses I think try and just like they're just constantly adding more things to the list employees like either they don't care or they use like only a small number of ⁓ employees actually ever take advantage of it.
AV: Yeah, the more you add, I was on my team, I'd rather be an A student at two things than a B student at ten. And and you really can't take on more than a few things and be an A student, right? So like I
Derek Williamson: Yeah.
AV: So th the two of you close each of your shows by handing your listeners something to go try this week. And I don't want to rob my audience of that. So in like one or two sentences each, give them the one thing that you would do. Derek, we'll start with you.
Derek Williamson: Nice. I'll go first. I mean just riffing off of that, so I would challenge folks to think about and I can't think of all five off the top of my head, but there are there are five sort of different pieces of compensation. If you look up like what are the five, I think it's called like the five salaries. it lists them all out. It's like financial, you know, sort of ⁓ mental well-being, etc. but ⁓ look at all of those categories ⁓ and then pick Pick the one that you think you can actually be top in your industry, at least in your area at, ⁓ to rework your ⁓ sort of people strategy around that. But like pick one lane and the best at that thing. ⁓ and have the courage to kind of suck at the rest. And that's okay, right? Like we don't have a 401k because that's not we're best at, right? We're a better part-time job. So we know that folks aren't gonna stay ⁓ as long Save for retirement. Kathleen.
Kathleen: I guess mine to stay on theme of like guest over people or people over guest, right? if you're going into the more territory of like, okay, we're gonna put guests first over our employees, define how long you're doing that for or what parameters are there, right? So that it doesn't ⁓ into this long term just always like culture of everything over employees, right? Because I think there's a slippery slope into money over employees ⁓ everything over employees. so I think if you're gonna go guest over employees and your ten on one test is proves that like yes there are exact scenarios where that is going to happen, I think putting parameters on it is a good idea.
AV: you guys got me on your show first. So if you guys want to give it a listen, any listeners, feel free to go jump in. So I guess we can call ourselves even at this point. ⁓ I appreciate you guys battling it out and talking through it. And ⁓ great to have you guys on. And to everybody listening, somewhere tonight, a dining room is powering down, someone got their keys out, doors about to open at 1001. What happens next isn't policy, it's who you are. This is the return. Did you earn it?
