Dr. Jamie Marich: Healing Through Creativity - The Re-Patterning Podcast

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So many of my problems with the modern day,
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therapy movements, many of which are cultish or cultic.
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And even by saying that,
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I encourage you to look up
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the International Cultic Studies Association
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and see the characteristics of a cult
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and decide for yourself.
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And I even wrote a blog once called
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in my Anitheorepic cult.
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I have been in the EMDR world for almost 20 years
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and it's culty, it's cultish in a lot of ways.
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So I've benefited from it,
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and I'm the first to recognize that.
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But I also know a cult when I see one.
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Welcome to the Repatterning Podcast,
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where we believe your mind body system is your domain
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and that choosing the beliefs, habits,
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and patterns that best support you is your birthright.
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I'm your host, Arden Leigh,
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creator of the Repatoning Project,
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an eight week course in learning to free yourself
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from the patterns of your past
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and program your mind for your dreams of the future.
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Join me for these extraordinary conversations
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as we unpack the keys to creating our reality.
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(upbeat music)
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Hello everyone and welcome back to the Repatterning Podcast.
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I'm your host, Arden Leigh.
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And today I am so excited to be joined
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by our guest, Dr. Jamie Marich.
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I wanna tell you a little bit about her
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before we dive into the conversation.
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Dr. Jamie has authored well over a dozen books
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at this point on topics such as trauma, EMDR therapy,
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expressive arts, mindfulness, and yoga.
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She has a private practice in Akrona, Hi-O,
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and some of her most popular book titles include
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EMDR Made Simple, Trauma and the 12 Steps,
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which I actually have my copy of right here,
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as well as Dissociation Made Simple,
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which I also have my copy of right here.
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And her latest book is a spiritual memoir titled,
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You Lied To Me About God, What a Great Title.
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And she's also the founder of the Institute
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for Creative Mindfulness, as well as the developer
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of a modality called Dancing Mindfulness.
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And she is also currently enrolled
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in the Interfaith Chaplaincy Program
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at the Chaplaincy Institute on the path
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to becoming ordained as an Interfaith minister.
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And she is also one of, I think at this point,
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really just a handful, or a few dozen,
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plural clinicians who is out about her dissociative identities,
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and her lived experience with dissociation,
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which is part of what makes her such a compelling author
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on the subject of dissociation.
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So Dr. Jamie, thank you so much
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for being on the show today.
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I am so honored to have you here.
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It's my great pleasure.
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I'm a fan of so much of what you do,
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and I'm excited to hear what kind of topics
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you've brought up for discussion.
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Awesome.
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I'm so excited because, and just for anyone listening,
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you enjoy Dr. Jamie's in my talk today.
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I want you to let you know, on my YouTube channel,
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from before I started the Re-Patterning podcast,
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there's another interview that I have with Dr. Jamie
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where we talk a lot about dissociation and about trauma
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and patterns of addiction.
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And so I wanna encourage you, if you enjoy that,
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go watch that one too.
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I don't wanna repeat the same conversation
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that we had last time.
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So I'm so excited especially to dive into Dr. Jamie,
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you've been sharing a little bit about how in this past year,
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you've had some major shifts around what you feel is your role
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in the field of therapy and mental health.
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That's the juicy conversation I'm aching to get into today.
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Oh, I am loving to have that conversation.
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So yeah, I'm curious.
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I think what you've seen and observed with some of the nieces
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I've written and announcements I've made,
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'cause just for context, especially in the mode of therapy,
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we call EMDR therapy.
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I movement desensitization or reprocessing,
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which is really phenomenal treatment for PTSD
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and trauma related issues.
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I have quite a platform.
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I'm a major trainer in the area.
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I've written three books specifically on EMDR
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and I've built a very successful training company in it
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and really in the wake of a lot of our success,
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I'm walking away from it.
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That's part of what's happening.
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I'm turning it over to someone else
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'cause it's just not where I wanna be,
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spending my energy even though I still very much
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believe in EMDR therapy and what it can do as a healing modality.
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I'm just in a period of making a lot of shifts
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for my own health and wellness and my life.
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And in the process, it's been a deconstruction,
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a calling out of this is what has not worked for me.
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And I wanna be clear, I'm not saying
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it's about professional therapy
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'cause I still very much believe in what therapy can do
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but it's how the field and the structures and the systems
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like what they've done to therapy
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that I am feeling increasingly more disgusted with.
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And yeah, so that's the context
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but I'm curious how you've observed
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and what you wanna talk about and all that.
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- Oh my gosh, well I'd love to start by asking you
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just what are some of the things
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that you've observed in the field
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that have not been working for you?
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I can definitely share some of what I've observed
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as an outsider but I want your insider perspective first.
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- Well, look always how you started introducing me.
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I think there's more than a dozen of us now
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but I am definitely one of a small minority
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who are so out and public about having been treated
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for the specific diagnosis we've been treated with dissociative.
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For us, it was another why specified dissociative disorder
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yet the path of treatment that I chose
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was to embrace this notion of honoring all my parts
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and having more of a functional plurality
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or multiplicity as we call it
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that to me dissociative identities
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is not something we have to be curative.
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It's something we need to learn how to live with
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and work with in a healthy, adaptive way.
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So what's interesting is at the time I formally came out in 2018,
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I didn't think it was that big of a deal in the larger field
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where I knew it would be a big deal is in the EMDR community
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because even amongst EMDR therapists,
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I had heard dissociation talked about
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with like such dirty word type of language.
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It's the worst thing a person can do.
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We have to make sure we keep people from doing it
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and I sat back passively even having been diagnosed 14 years
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listening to what a lot of professionals said
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about those sick people with dissociative disorders
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or other conditions.
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And a lot of my major coming out was after I had done
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a lot of the work to be okay with the consequences of what might happen.
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But I came out and it did its thing in EMDR world
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and I didn't realize it was seen as such a trailblazing thing
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in the larger therapeutic professions too.
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I mean, I'm definitely not the first person who has come out
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as being a professional with a major mental health diagnosis.
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We had Katie Keach on the show too, by the way.
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So good.
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Good.
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Katie's is someone who we've had a lot of mutual shared dialogue
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around this.
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But I think what kind of quote unquote impressed people
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was someone of my stature, someone of the bibliography I have
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and the work I've done to come out and not just be like,
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"Hey, I have this and it's a thing of my past."
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Because I do think some people come out
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about their mental health and addiction struggles in that way.
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Like it happened, I'm over it, I'm good now.
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And so much of my coming out has been, yes,
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it's no longer paralyzing my life.
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And especially when life gets rough,
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it can still be a factor in my life.
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I'm not one who ever pretends that we're ever fully healed
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from something, even though we can largely have
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resolution on something.
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And that it's okay to live in this place of my parts
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are still a part of me.
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And I've learned to tend to them in a way
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where they actually helped me live a more adaptive
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and responsive life right now.
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So I think that is what a lot of people see in me
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as they're either scared of me for being that open
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or critical or they've respected it.
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And I think going to your question
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about the larger problem in the field is it still pisses me off
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that the field is not paying adequate attention
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to lived experience voices.
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And I think those of us who are professionals
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who are out about lived experience,
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I'm gonna go as far as to say we have the most to share
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'cause we are coming at this from both worlds,
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having the professional training and education
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but also being able to say, "Hey, I've lived this too."
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There are times in the fields helping professions
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where I think I see some change happening
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and I'm still just seeing a lot of pushback,
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like one of the continuing education organizations
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that I have recently abandoned giving money to
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because continuing at organizations are what we as trainers
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have to pay to be able to offer their certain approvals
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and designations on our courses.
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And they are just getting more and more staunch
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that anything you train has to have so many peer reviewed
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citations from empirical literature.
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And I wanna be clear, I'm not against research
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or empirical literature.
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What I am against is us privileging that
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as a knowledge source.
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Religious scholar, I follow,
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whose name will come to me here in a second
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called it "scientism" that were not,
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Houston Smith, were not anti-science
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but it's putting science up on this pedestal
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against let's say the ways of spirit or lived experience.
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And what I want, and what a lot of people want,
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I feel too, is this place where we can honor
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all forms of inquiry as valid.
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And the way I see the fields of psychology
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especially in the other helping professions now,
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we're not doing that.
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And that's a problem.
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May I have some ideas on I think why it's gotten that way?
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But that's one of the things I'm speaking on.
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- Yeah, I especially loved your response
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to when someone says, oh, but something is or is not evidence-based.
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- Who's evidence?
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- That's my first question.
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(laughing)
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- This came up in the discussion for me recently too,
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where I had a person who I did not know,
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in my comments in a public post online,
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talking about how what I was doing was unethical,
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it was dangerous, because of the course that I teach, et cetera.
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And this was someone who had never come across my work before.
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He had decided this in the last 20 minutes
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between when I commented on the thread
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and when they responded back to me.
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And I said, what is your basis for it?
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I was like, I know the scope of what I'm doing.
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I know what my certifications are and are not.
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And I'm transparent about what I do and what I teach.
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And he goes, I don't care, you're not a licensed professional.
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And so I started being like, well, what institutions
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are we looking at here?
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And the first thing I brought up was how complex PTSD
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is still not even in the DSM.
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And the fact that back in in 1994, it was voted on,
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it was called desnose disorder of extremes
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to us not otherwise specified, and a committee voted on it.
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19 people out of 21 voted to put it into the DSM
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and just amazingly enough, somehow,
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somewhere along the way it just didn't end up there.
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So I look at that and I say, well, how good
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are your standards for evidence if this is what we're dealing with?
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This conversation is happening, especially
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in a lot of decolonizing therapy spaces.
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And I'm happy for this that we're looking at
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what does being a licensed professional even mean?
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Like let's go there because I come at this of two worlds.
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Again, I'm not against science, I'm against scientism.
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And I feel that's especially important to say in a country
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where so much science, especially at the medical level,
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is being ignored.
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Good point.
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The position that I take is therapy and healing
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is not a hard science.
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That science, at least in a naturalistic and peric-away,
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can be a part of it.
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But if we really believe that people are holistic beings,
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body, mind, spirit, we can't just look
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at the science of the body.
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And is mind a science or is it an art?
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You know my work, I tend to approach it more as an art form.
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So on one hand, licensing, professional licensing
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is in place.
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And any licensing board will tell you
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this to protect the public.
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That that's the existence of a licensing board.
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And some have commented, well, it gives the public a sense
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of protection.
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It's kind of like, why do we go to the security gates
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at the airport?
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It helps people maybe feel safer, whether or not
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it's doing anything or not.
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And it's tricky because I do believe
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there are some healing practices that
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are the scope of license professionals who've been trained.
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I went through that hard work of getting my masters
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and getting licensed.
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And it was a lot I had to go through.
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And here's the other truth, Bob, I'm going to drop.
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Oh, I don't know if I should say this publicly,
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but spirit's bringing it through.
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So we're going to--
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so many license professionals out there
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have not done their own work.
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Oh, 100%.
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And there are a lot of people who technically have a license.
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I would not refer people to.
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I would not go to.
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And there are people who work in other healing modalities
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that as long as they know their scope, which it sounds like you
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do, I think can be better fits for doing healing work
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with people.
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Professional Western psychotherapy does not
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have the market cornered on healing.
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And I want more therapists to recognize that,
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and to realize that shamans and other healing practitioners
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and spiritual directors, spiritual care providers
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and practitioners are people we can work within concert.
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And I will say in my role as a license professional
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in EMDR expert, I've run into times and cases
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where I know I have done all I could with my skills.
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And I do refer my person for collaborative care
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with a well studied, well trained shaman,
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or some other kind of healing arts practitioner
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and we work together.
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Or it might be therapy is not where you are most needing.
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Healing, that's not the best fit in your journey right now,
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but maybe there is another healing practice that is.
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So you could probably tell, I hope this is coming through.
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I am in all of the above type of person.
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I think we get into any dangerous territory.
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When we say this is the thing that's going to heal your PTSD
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or cure your PTSD.
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Or this is the death of a way, a certain form of therapy works.
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So that's that's that's so box.
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Yeah.
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I love what you brought up also about, for example, shamanism
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and other indigenous healing modalities.
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Because I think it's such a sort of like myopic Western
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colonialist kind of arrogance to assume like,
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oh, we have the way we have this field that's really maybe
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only been developed in its current form in the last 100 years
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or so where it's like, you know, you're looking at,
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well, how did folks get by in other cultures?
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How mental illness or spiritual sickness dealt with in other,
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like you think you're the first one?
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You know, you're going to go and like stick a flag in it and be like,
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ah, we have, you know, and it's just like when you get to that,
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that myopia of, oh, you must be a licensed professional.
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You know, again, who is licensed, right?
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And what is, you know, what's being studied?
340
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And again, I think you're correct in that, like sometimes,
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yes, absolutely, you know, you want someone, it's like,
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especially if you're going to do like a brain surgeon, right?
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And you bring up like the fact that like science
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in this country right now is maybe not being paid attention
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to enough in many medical spheres that, you know,
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especially with what we have going on in our government
347
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and the department of, you know, health and all that,
348
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all that kerfleffle.
349
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But at the same time, yeah, healing is so much more,
350
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and has been for me so much more of an art.
351
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And I would actually love to hear more about your work
352
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in the expressive arts as well.
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And, you know, what you teach or help folks to do to use their creativity
354
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and, you know, their expressive side in order to further that journey of healing.
355
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Well, I would argue that expressive arts is the original treatment.
356
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It's the original healing modality.
357
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And even the International Expressive Arts Therapy Association,
358
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who in my opinion, my opinion have kind of gone the way
359
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of trying to overstandardize things now too.
360
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But they have had a long term history of recognizing
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that there are the expressive arts therapy
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it was not invented by any one person,
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that it is fundamentally indigenous in nature
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and that what we call modern expressive arts therapy
365
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came together from a variety of influences and spheres.
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And so how professional expressive arts therapy honors
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what is called both multimodality and intermodality.
368
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So that means we're not like just writing or just drawing
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or just playing music or just dancing,
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but we're open to working with all of them.
371
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So it goes back to my very, all of the above personality.
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So a lot of people have heard of separate art therapy, dance therapy,
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et cetera, yet the expressive arts focus is,
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let's look at how they all weave together.
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Because that's certainly what the first peoples of the planet did.
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And we all have, I've said this in one of my other books,
377
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A Birthright to Express.
378
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We're all wired for expression.
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And so much of what trauma or oppression or stress
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over time can do to us is tell us that we don't have a right
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to express our truth or that it's not safe
382
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to express our truth or our voice.
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And the various practices and processes
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of expressive arts work, which can be done.
385
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And so I will also give Iyata credit for this
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because I really liked this when I first studying expressive arts.
387
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They will credential both mental health therapists
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and expressive arts.
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And they also have a credential for consultants and educators.
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So people who may do the work you do
391
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or people who are classroom educators,
392
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my teacher was a spiritual director
393
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and had expressive arts training.
394
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So I've long resonated with this idea
395
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that the expressive arts belong to everyone.
396
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And what we're really doing in this healing modality
397
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we call expressive arts is just helping people tap into that.
398
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And it can work alongside other modalities,
399
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like repotting or EMDR therapy
400
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or any other modality you may use or practice.
401
00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,800
What I love about the expressive arts as well
402
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or really using any creative outlet
403
00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:58,800
for healing or for personal change, for personal transformation
404
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,960
is if we're looking at metrics, which are like,
405
00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,160
oh, if you don't have a license, this is unethical, et cetera.
406
00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,600
Well, no one is ever going to get hurt by writing a song.
407
00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,840
No one ever got hurt by painting a picture.
408
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,840
So I love that it's also something that anyone can do
409
00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:22,600
that is our natural, as you said, birthright,
410
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our creative right to express ourselves.
411
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And this can contribute to our healing.
412
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:31,480
And there's probably almost no way for it to actually go wrong
413
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unless, now I'm thinking of like,
414
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I'm being very autistic exceptionalist here.
415
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The only way that I can think of is if you're stuck in a pattern
416
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:42,960
and you learn a pattern of like, oh, when I'm in pain
417
00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,920
and I express my pain through a song, then I get approval.
418
00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,480
So I need to create more pain in order to create more.
419
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,760
That would be the one pitfall, but aside from that,
420
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,240
it's something that anyone can do on their own time.
421
00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:56,560
And I think the only other, I mean, another pitfall
422
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,040
I'd want to make people aware of as we can all,
423
00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,920
and this might likely, a pattern, be in that tendency
424
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,720
to push ourselves, which a lot of artists will do.
425
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,360
Like, I have to keep outputting, outputting, outputting,
426
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:10,280
more, more, more, more, where you may be a lot of writers
427
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,880
do this, then neglecting other parts of your health.
428
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:18,240
Or that internal meter may be saying, you're a little too far
429
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,120
into this right now, you got to take a break.
430
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:22,000
You can come back to it later.
431
00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,640
So that would be just another caution I'd give.
432
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,840
Yeah, that's a great one to pushing ourselves into burnout
433
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,120
or developing a pattern where we base our worth
434
00:20:32,120 --> 00:20:34,320
on our output for sure.
435
00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:38,120
Yeah, what sort of, let's look at the positive things
436
00:20:38,120 --> 00:20:41,240
that could come from, say, someone engaging
437
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:42,760
in an arts practice like that.
438
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:44,160
For those who are listening out there,
439
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,280
and I'm going to go ahead and also assume
440
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,400
that there are probably many of our listeners
441
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,640
who maybe don't have access to therapy,
442
00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:53,000
or can't afford to do one-on-one work
443
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:54,640
with a practitioner right now.
444
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,360
What kind of thing would you maybe suggest to them
445
00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:02,640
that they could explore in terms of creating artistic work
446
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,120
in a sense that would help with their healing path?
447
00:21:05,120 --> 00:21:06,880
Well, what a wonderful question, because it's
448
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:08,800
tying into my current project.
449
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,320
I'm working on my next presently called Memoir,
450
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,120
Writing a Spiritual Practice.
451
00:21:14,120 --> 00:21:16,440
And a lot of it came out of the fact
452
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,120
that, of course, I wrote a memoir.
453
00:21:18,120 --> 00:21:23,120
Yet I found that to be, I don't even have words
454
00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:24,440
for how helpful it was.
455
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,840
Now, to be clear, I had 20 years of therapy
456
00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:29,360
and other healing practices before writing it.
457
00:21:29,360 --> 00:21:31,560
Yet it almost had this quality of like,
458
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:33,400
I was writing my final exam.
459
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,280
Even though I don't think like I'm ever done evolving
460
00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,040
as a human, when it was out and shared with the world,
461
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,960
I had such this sense of its over now.
462
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,880
And I'm not going to let this define me,
463
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,360
even as I still talk about it.
464
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:49,800
And there was something about getting into the memories.
465
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,040
And I wrote a lot of songs, who I was writing the memoir,
466
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,200
that helped me tap into a new level of spiritual practice.
467
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,600
And so I started teaching a course called Memoir,
468
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,520
Writing a Spiritual Practice, and actually
469
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:04,880
for my seminary internship, I'm writing the book
470
00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,120
and interviewing Memoirists who are not media stars,
471
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:10,480
because that's not who I'm interested in talking to for this.
472
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,320
I want to talk to Memoirists who have self-published
473
00:22:13,320 --> 00:22:15,240
or who have worked with small presses,
474
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:19,080
or who really did this with the intention of healing
475
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:20,360
and spiritual practice.
476
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:24,120
So I think of what a Maori woman, Hany Moray,
477
00:22:24,120 --> 00:22:26,400
who is a friend and who I met in New Zealand
478
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:28,880
said when I met her and she was giving a talk
479
00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,920
on her memoir process about her grief experience.
480
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,880
She said, my paper didn't judge me, my pen didn't judge me.
481
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:37,760
And I just love that.
482
00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,840
And yes, that's what a lot of people get with journaling.
483
00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:43,800
And there can be some precautions around journaling, too,
484
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,720
because I think sometimes we do push and take it too far
485
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,120
and can stay in these same patterns or scripts.
486
00:22:50,120 --> 00:22:53,440
Yet I think if you journal or write with an intention,
487
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,680
like I'm asking a lot of Memoirists, now,
488
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:58,720
what was your intention in approaching your memoir?
489
00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,880
And I'm hearing things like to try to make meaning out of my life,
490
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:06,440
to try to organize something that has been very scattered.
491
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:11,480
And when you can write with that intention, as opposed to--
492
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,440
Yeah, you may have these rage chapters and rage things
493
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:17,880
you have to express, because I'm not about stifling expression,
494
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,320
but can you turn it around for some greater intention
495
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:28,760
to either repattern, to make meaning, to realize
496
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:30,680
this is part of my story.
497
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:32,280
I even have this story yet.
498
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,800
I am not my whole story.
499
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,160
My story doesn't end here.
500
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,040
And writing can take a lot of folks to that place,
501
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,480
specifically memoir writing.
502
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,600
And I always want to say memoir doesn't have to be a book.
503
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:43,840
It can be a series of essays.
504
00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,000
It can be a series of poems.
505
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,840
It can be a collection of songs.
506
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:50,960
I think of how many albums out there really have memoir quality.
507
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,680
So yeah, that's what I'm working on right now.
508
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,160
Man, I resonate so much with what you said
509
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,960
about when you finally put it out there,
510
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,680
you felt like it's done.
511
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,760
Despite years and years of therapy and healing work,
512
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,560
that I felt that way around the EP that I wrote called,
513
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:08,320
Who Can You Trust?
514
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,160
And I didn't really have--
515
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,920
I think I had an unconscious intention, not really a conscious one.
516
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:16,840
I didn't really quite understand how narrative magic worked back then.
517
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,680
But I knew on some level that I was going
518
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,240
to put all of the betrayals, all the trauma,
519
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,080
all the relational abuse, et cetera, that had happened to me into this sort of--
520
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,440
I knew that the title was going to be called, Who Can You Trust?
521
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,480
Because it was about learning discernment, ultimately.
522
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,360
And I remember it came out in early 2018.
523
00:24:33,360 --> 00:24:36,760
So it was right as the Me Too movement was like
524
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:39,760
cresting into the mainstream was when it was in mixing.
525
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,120
And I remember when it came out, and we put a music video out,
526
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:48,200
maybe two months after the album itself was released.
527
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,200
And I remember seeing the reviews come back
528
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,080
because I had hired a publicist and everything.
529
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,520
And it was like, oh, you know, Arden Lee tackles
530
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,840
the Me Too movement with this.
531
00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,920
And I was like, man, why is everyone making my music all about sexual assault?
532
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,880
And then I was like, oh, wait a minute, no, that was me.
533
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,480
I did that.
534
00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:05,440
I literally wrote the press release.
535
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,440
And in that moment, I was like, oh, I'm done
536
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,720
because I'm tired of talking about it.
537
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,000
What is now the blank slate in front of me
538
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,040
that I get to create from?
539
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,360
And I think also what you said about the fact
540
00:25:19,360 --> 00:25:22,960
that when we're doing that, I feel anyway as an artist
541
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,440
that I have an obligation to--
542
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:27,840
if I'm going to complain about something,
543
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,520
I better be doing it to solve it.
544
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,160
So if I'm putting all of that--
545
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:32,160
Yeah, you know.
546
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,720
I feel like it's almost like my obligation,
547
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,440
if I'm putting something out in the world,
548
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,920
I better show people that there is a way out of that.
549
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,920
And so oftentimes, it's like the last track of the album
550
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,600
will be the one that takes everything and kind of like,
551
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:47,520
twist it around and puts it out there.
552
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:49,280
And it's like, all right, well, here's what I've learned.
553
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,280
And here's what I'm doing from it.
554
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,560
So yeah, I just wanted to share that everything
555
00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,800
that you said just resonated so, so deeply with me.
556
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:57,360
I'm so grateful.
557
00:25:57,360 --> 00:25:58,160
I'm writing that quote.
558
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,040
Yeah, and I love it so much.
559
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,160
Oh my gosh, I'm honored.
560
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,440
I'm so honored by that.
561
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,360
I will likely shout you out in the new book with that idea.
562
00:26:07,360 --> 00:26:08,160
It's fantastic.
563
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:09,320
Oh, amazing.
564
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,040
Oh, you just made my day.
565
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,760
I'm such a fan girl, you know?
566
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:19,960
Because I have-- yeah, your books were just like, man,
567
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,480
at a time when I needed to know about those subjects,
568
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,560
so very badly, like your books were there in a way
569
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,880
that I was like, oh, thank God this exists as a resource.
570
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,440
Well, thank you for saying that.
571
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,120
But I want to turn that into a message for your listeners,
572
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:35,480
which is, yeah, this goes back to kind
573
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,440
of the theme of our conversation about being more of a rebel
574
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:45,200
in my professional field, that I write publishers
575
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,240
the mainstream literary industry would
576
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:49,960
could say that I write for a niche audience,
577
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,560
that I don't write with a lot of mass or commercial appeal.
578
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,720
And I'm OK with that, because I don't
579
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,560
want to put out anything that doesn't feel like me,
580
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,400
that I don't believe in, that I don't think there is a market
581
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,520
for that people want to hear from.
582
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:05,360
And so when I get feedback like that,
583
00:27:05,360 --> 00:27:06,920
it's more than just a compliment.
584
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:08,360
It's like, you know, I was right.
585
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:10,920
There was something in this for somebody.
586
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,080
And I would just say to any of you who maybe have art scarring
587
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:17,640
around nobody's going to like this,
588
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,880
or nobody's going to feel helped from this,
589
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,200
or nobody's going to be impacted by this.
590
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,280
If your intuition is telling you, this may help
591
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:28,280
even just one other person, follow that thread
592
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,360
and create that thing, express that thing, that you're
593
00:27:31,360 --> 00:27:33,480
being led to, create or express.
594
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,440
Also, I would, you know, to riff off of your own quote,
595
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,040
I would also say, who's commercial appeal?
596
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,040
Right.
597
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:42,200
You know?
598
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:43,360
Like, yeah.
599
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:46,720
I was visiting a bookstore recently,
600
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,800
a very lovely, spumb business bookstore
601
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,040
that I'm just so glad places like that still exist.
602
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:55,760
And I had a connection in the owner,
603
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,000
and she knew about my work.
604
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,120
And I was looking at the book she had on her shelf
605
00:28:00,120 --> 00:28:02,360
about trauma and spirituality.
606
00:28:02,360 --> 00:28:06,440
And my short assessment to her is the people who read my stuff
607
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,360
are usually the people who roll their eyes at these people.
608
00:28:10,360 --> 00:28:11,840
And I'm OK with that.
609
00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,120
I'm really OK with that.
610
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:14,680
Yeah.
611
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,680
[LAUGHS]
612
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:18,800
Yeah, absolutely.
613
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:22,800
And so-- well, and what really gets me is like just so many
614
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:25,560
of the people who are in charge of the institutions
615
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:26,360
these days.
616
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:31,320
And it seems like if they are not aggressively antagonizing
617
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,280
the communities that they claim to be treating, which, you know,
618
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,440
you and I know that that's been going on with a lot of the,
619
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:40,520
you know, the so-called experts on dissociative disorders
620
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,840
and, you know, and also disorders in their quotes as well.
621
00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,280
And so, you know, so I look at some of the things
622
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,040
that are chosen or held up as the standard.
623
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,200
And I'm like, I don't trust the source where this is coming from.
624
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:52,520
You know?
625
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,880
I don't trust even the intentions of the source
626
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,720
where this is coming from.
627
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,760
And I think so much of what you're hitting on there
628
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:00,840
is the word intention.
629
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,200
I mean, I can't automatically know the intention
630
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:06,520
of why every writer puts something out.
631
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,000
I also don't think intention is all good or all bad,
632
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,920
because I want to be clear that even though I have said a lot
633
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:19,160
about a lot of the institutional thinkers in my field,
634
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:20,960
I don't disparage that work.
635
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:23,920
I do think it has open doors in places,
636
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:26,960
especially institutionally where doors of need to be opened.
637
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,080
I'm not saying everybody writes or thinks
638
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,360
or leads with bad intention.
639
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:36,160
But all I know is I know when intention resonates with me.
640
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,920
Like I had a raky master once who,
641
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,600
and I don't know your thoughts on this,
642
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,360
but it really stuck with me.
643
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,560
She said, I personally don't agree with good energy
644
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:45,600
and bad energy.
645
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:48,440
I agree with does this energy resonate with me?
646
00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:49,440
Mm.
647
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,040
And I feel that way very much about intention
648
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,920
that if somebody's intention for doing something
649
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:57,040
or saying something or teaching something
650
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,280
feels like it aligns with either my intention
651
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,560
or what I need to receive, that's where I tend
652
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:05,400
to really connect with someone's work.
653
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:07,760
It's not saying I completely shut off everyone else,
654
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:11,160
because I do think, again, I'm an all of the above thinker,
655
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,080
but that's my thoughts on it.
656
00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:13,920
Yeah.
657
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,800
I loved also your thoughts recently.
658
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:20,360
There was a piece in the cut recently
659
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,120
with us talking about.
660
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,400
I was like, oh, I got to get into this one with Dr. Jamie today.
661
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,560
So I'll just say for our listeners,
662
00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:30,680
because I know Dr. Jamie knows what I'm talking about.
663
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,400
There was a few months ago, there was kind of a hit piece
664
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,720
in the cut about a modality called internal family systems.
665
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,600
And I think Dr. Jamie and I are pretty aligned
666
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:43,680
in our feelings about internal family systems,
667
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,480
where I personally, I like it as a model.
668
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,520
I also do not think it's necessarily like the,
669
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,240
it's not beyond critique, and it's not like the be all and all.
670
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:54,360
But I like it as a model.
671
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,560
And I know there's been people in my own life
672
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,640
with dissociative disorders who had real difficulty accepting
673
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:05,320
what was going on because of shame and stigma,
674
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,960
and because of the way that mental illness has been literally
675
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:12,240
weaponized sometimes in our society against people.
676
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,160
And really had a hard time embracing that this was a possibility,
677
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:17,680
actually not even a possibility,
678
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:19,160
but like a necessity to deal with,
679
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,000
they were going to be on a path to healing.
680
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,080
And Dick Schwartz, his book, "No Bad Parts,"
681
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,520
which is about the IFS model,
682
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:30,200
absolutely created a gateway for this person to like begin
683
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,520
to accept their own plurality, that these were not like,
684
00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:35,400
that these were, these parts are assets,
685
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,760
like these parts are part of us, they're valid,
686
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,240
they have their needs are valid,
687
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,880
their feelings are valid, et cetera.
688
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:44,640
So I'm so grateful to his work for that.
689
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,400
At the same time, it's also a model
690
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,680
that I think has developed like a bit of like a cult of personality
691
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,720
around it or like a cult of modality perhaps to be better said.
692
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,240
And there are a lot of people who with anything,
693
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,040
it's like anything is a tool.
694
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,200
And so if you have a hammer, which is like a neutral tool,
695
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:01,520
you could use a hammer to build a house,
696
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,200
but you could also use it to knock someone's kneecaps out.
697
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,480
And there have been, so it seems, you know,
698
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,560
some facilitators that have been using IFS in a way
699
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,400
that has not actually been helpful to their patients,
700
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,640
you know, that maybe is more about, you know, their own egos.
701
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,920
But I would love to, for you, Dr. Damien,
702
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:22,920
to talk about your thoughts on the way that that model has been viewed
703
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,480
in that sort of, again, the scientism of Western thought
704
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,840
and whether something is, you know, quote unquote evidence-based.
705
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:35,200
- Yeah, so that piece I wrote, it's called therapy is not a science
706
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,960
and it's a response specifically to that take down piece
707
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,920
in the cut about IFS, which I thought was unfair,
708
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,600
even though I'm a critic of IFS in a lot of ways,
709
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,400
because how shall I say this fairly?
710
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,200
'Cause I, Dick Schwartz, I will give him credit.
711
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,200
He has been open to have dialogue with me
712
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,720
about some of my criticisms of IFS in a way
713
00:32:54,720 --> 00:32:59,720
that's not been pandering and so I respect him in a lot of ways.
714
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,880
I think, oh, we're going here.
715
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,440
So many of my problems with the modern day,
716
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:12,560
therapy movements, many of which are cultish or cultic,
717
00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,840
and even by saying that, I encourage you to look up
718
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,200
the International Cultic Studies Association,
719
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,960
the International Cultic Studies Association
720
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,320
and see the characteristics of a cult and decide for yourself.
721
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,720
And I even wrote a blog once called in my therapy cult
722
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:28,920
and yeah, I have been in the EMDR world for almost 20 years
723
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,200
and it's culty, it's cultish in a lot of ways.
724
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:33,560
So I've benefited from it.
725
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,840
I'm the first to recognize that,
726
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:37,760
but I also know a cult when I see one.
727
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,520
I know cult thinking when I see one.
728
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,600
And I do think in some circumstances,
729
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,160
a lot of the founders of these modern modalities
730
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,160
who are really just repurposing a lot of ancient wisdom
731
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,320
that's probably my biggest beef with IFS.
732
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,480
And you know, something Schwarz has said repeatedly
733
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,120
is I just listened to my clients.
734
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:57,360
I just listened to my clients.
735
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:58,320
I just listened to my clients.
736
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:00,680
I love that attitude.
737
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,520
And who's to say we can't listen to our clients too
738
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:08,240
on helping build a model that's going to work for them?
739
00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:13,360
And why is he as a male academic getting credit
740
00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:15,680
for this thing that so many dissociative women
741
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:17,480
have done themselves for years?
742
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:18,480
And indigenous.
743
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:19,480
- Oh, fierce.
744
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:21,880
- So that's a big part of my criticism.
745
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,920
And, 'cause it is both and, I don't believe in like,
746
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:29,520
totalities in most cases, I give him an IFS credit
747
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,600
'cause it has popularized in the mental health field
748
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,640
this idea that we all have parts.
749
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,560
It has taken a lot of parts thinking out of the closet.
750
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:40,960
And so I'm grateful for that.
751
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,240
I'm definitely grateful for that.
752
00:34:42,240 --> 00:34:44,800
But the piece in the cut, I think,
753
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,800
started with this idea of this is the damage IFS can cause.
754
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,200
And I don't see the portrayal so much as the modality
755
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,360
rather the treatment center and the clinician
756
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:57,720
that we're doing it.
757
00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:58,560
- Yes.
758
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,320
- And that goes to an earlier part I was making
759
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,600
about licensing therapists.
760
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,440
That's not necessarily a sign that you're working
761
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,360
with a good practitioner just 'cause somebody
762
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:12,360
can afford all this training and pass the tests and whatnot.
763
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,960
And then the piece really took this turn of,
764
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,840
like, it's not sufficiently empirically reviewed science.
765
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:20,720
And this is what the APA says.
766
00:35:20,720 --> 00:35:25,720
And with a lot of modalities, I think there is an evidence base.
767
00:35:25,720 --> 00:35:30,240
It may not be the level of measureability
768
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:32,680
that's something like cognitive behavioral therapy has
769
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,880
'cause that is more of a cookie cutter scientific approach
770
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,080
to the mind.
771
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,400
And I said this to a friend of mine who does IFS
772
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,880
in discussing the unfairness of the piece
773
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:48,280
that at a certain point when we talk about healing modalities,
774
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,160
yeah, you can look at the quality of the science.
775
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,480
But you also have to look at the quality
776
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,040
of quite frankly customer satisfaction,
777
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,960
are people who are not subject to being researched
778
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:00,920
by academic institutions?
779
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,480
Are they reporting that this is working
780
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:04,560
and helpful for them?
781
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,440
And this is this element of voice to the people.
782
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,880
What are the people saying through their lived experience
783
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:11,920
about what is helpful?
784
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:14,920
And I will go as far to say if you look at my healing journey
785
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:16,960
and my healing trajectory,
786
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,320
it would have been impossible to measure
787
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,920
because there was no one thing that did it for me.
788
00:36:22,920 --> 00:36:26,480
And so much of modern attempts at research
789
00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:29,520
and psychotherapy are all about what's the intervention?
790
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:31,600
What's the dose of the intervention?
791
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:36,160
And all these other variables are just out of the way.
792
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:38,800
Dr. San Chang, who is an IFS therapist,
793
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:40,840
I've not followed their work for a while,
794
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:43,000
but something they said years ago
795
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,160
that really struck with me.
796
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:46,400
I cited it in dissociation made simple
797
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:50,680
is that evidence-based therapy is a colonial project
798
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,520
because so much of who's getting researched
799
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:58,080
in especially university-driven studies
800
00:36:58,080 --> 00:37:00,840
are not black, brown, and indigenous people,
801
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,400
are not queer people unless the research
802
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,000
is more specifically tailored that way.
803
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,680
And people with complex trauma and dissociative disorders,
804
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,920
although there is a body of research to be sure,
805
00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:15,200
it often does not strike me when I read it
806
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,760
as the kind of therapy participants or clients
807
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:21,960
I would need in my settings.
808
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,400
Yeah, rather the types of clients
809
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,520
who would go to more university-sponsored hospitals
810
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:29,640
or institutions.
811
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:30,280
So--
812
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:33,360
Yeah.
813
00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:34,320
When Gordon here--
814
00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,440
[LAUGHTER]
815
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,240
Well, I say that about the ACE test all the time, right?
816
00:37:39,240 --> 00:37:41,120
The adverse childhood experience test,
817
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,920
which if anyone's not familiar with that,
818
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,160
it's a set of 10 questions and it asks you,
819
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,600
did any of these things happen to you during your childhood?
820
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:50,600
And if you marked yes, then you tally those up or whatever.
821
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,440
And that was based on a survey of Kaiser Permanente patients.
822
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,480
So we're looking at mostly white middle class suburban families
823
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,360
who had access to that kind of health care.
824
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,760
So there's nothing in there about, like, did your mom have
825
00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:03,040
to sit you down and--
826
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:03,640
Right.
827
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,960
And all of that was done in the late '90s.
828
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,560
And think of how much has happened since then,
829
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,640
especially with political climate issues.
830
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,680
And yeah, that's well known as a deficit of the ACE study,
831
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:16,960
yet it still gets cited as a great big thing.
832
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,400
We should all be paying attention to.
833
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:18,920
Yeah.
834
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,560
Like, you can honor it for what it did historically
835
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:23,880
in that it advanced the conversation.
836
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,120
Yes, there's so much more to it than that.
837
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:26,320
Yeah.
838
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:28,680
And I still teach it as a means of just saying,
839
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,120
hey, look at these correlations.
840
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,280
This shows that trauma that happens during these years
841
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,920
has effects that go into adulthood, which
842
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:37,560
is what I got out of the ACE test.
843
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,560
But it's like, yeah, there's no question there
844
00:38:39,560 --> 00:38:41,680
for like, did you have an active shooter drill
845
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:43,680
when you were a kindergartener, which is like everyone
846
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,800
in America at this point who's growing up as a kid now?
847
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:48,480
Or like, did your mom sit you down and have
848
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,720
that, you know, if you, honey, if you talk to a police officer,
849
00:38:51,720 --> 00:38:54,240
you know, remember your black, so you can't talk the way
850
00:38:54,240 --> 00:38:56,400
that the white kids can, you know, and those.
851
00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:59,280
And those are very often a religious environment
852
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:03,040
where you were ripped to shreds for loving how you love
853
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:07,160
or identifying with genders that aren't so black and white.
854
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:07,680
Yep.
855
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:08,920
Yeah, absolutely.
856
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:10,000
All of that.
857
00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,520
So yeah, so again, like who's evidence, right?
858
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,880
Who's who's who's sample size is it based on?
859
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,400
The variance, who's sample size, who's life?
860
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:19,440
Yeah, yeah.
861
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,560
So speaking of spirituality, I'm so curious also
862
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:24,320
to hear about what you've been learning
863
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,480
at the Interfaith Chaplaincy Institute, because I read,
864
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,800
you know, I brushed up on your substack this week
865
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,280
before signing on to this interview.
866
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,160
And you said something in one of your essays
867
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,280
that you said what you were learning there,
868
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,240
you were currently finding even more exciting
869
00:39:42,240 --> 00:39:43,600
than anything that you could imagine
870
00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:46,000
studying in psychology or trauma therapy.
871
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,160
So so spill the tea, I want to know what,
872
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,480
what's exciting you about that study?
873
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,560
Well, I read a, I took a really good class
874
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:57,360
at Chaplaincy Institute called integral psychology
875
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:01,520
with this marvelous professor, Yergen Schwing.
876
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:06,520
And he is both weirdly enough a Kaiser Permanente chaplain
877
00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,480
and a student of yoga.
878
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,720
And specifically a student of the Indian,
879
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:14,520
the deeper Indian traditions of yoga.
880
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,320
And in this class in a girl psychology,
881
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,320
we did good study around where Western psychology
882
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,000
misses a big chunk of it by not looking at Eastern psychology.
883
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,280
And where Eastern psychology can,
884
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,560
like the two don't have to be mutually exclusive.
885
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,800
We can sit down at the table together.
886
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,680
And in a book we read for that course by a person
887
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,800
in Grant Courtwright, he dropped this amazing truth bomb,
888
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:40,840
which is Freud was a, who is considered the father
889
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,480
of the talking cure in modern psychotherapy.
890
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:45,480
He was a stone cold atheist.
891
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,080
And how much of the legacy of our field
892
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:51,360
has come from that sense of scientism
893
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,400
and that spirit is not relevant here.
894
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,120
And you did have other thinkers and leaders
895
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:58,840
who were flawed as well, like Carl Jung,
896
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,840
but at least he went further with collective unconsciousness
897
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:05,200
and he did have a real spiritual depth, Victor Franklhat.
898
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,280
So I'm not saying the field in our leaders
899
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:09,560
have been completely void of that.
900
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:12,000
Yet I do think the more we've tried to legitimize
901
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:16,160
ourselves as a science, we can lose this spiritual piece.
902
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,240
And not just, well, ask a client what their religious beliefs are
903
00:41:19,240 --> 00:41:21,480
and what they mean to them and kind of checking off
904
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,840
your boxes on your assessment, yet really considering
905
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,680
that spiritual health for many can be equated with mental health
906
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:34,240
and repaturning horrible messaging, learn through church
907
00:41:34,240 --> 00:41:37,160
can be what we need to do that can involve
908
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:39,760
both spiritual and mental health interventions.
909
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:44,720
So that's an example where things just really very much
910
00:41:44,720 --> 00:41:46,760
came together for me.
911
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,760
And yeah, I can be both.
912
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:53,920
I am both in so many ways of my sexual woman.
913
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,360
I'm in all of the above thinker as I hope I've established.
914
00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,600
And it's interesting, because growing up in the church
915
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,400
as I did, which were very high demand and not affirming
916
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:06,960
and taught me lies about God as the title of my book suggests,
917
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:10,680
I'm really jazzed about spirituality and God,
918
00:42:10,680 --> 00:42:13,720
not necessarily institutional religion at this point.
919
00:42:13,720 --> 00:42:18,200
And wanting to help people who want to reconnect with that
920
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,400
in a way that is shame free.
921
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:25,560
Because not only do we have a right to that spiritual healing,
922
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:27,960
it can help our mental healing as well.
923
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,480
So I love being in seminary.
924
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:31,480
I'm glad I have followed the thread.
925
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:34,000
I think it's making me a better therapist.
926
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,360
Yet I know that the knowledge I bring in as a therapist
927
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,360
in this particular seminary is not shot down either.
928
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:42,720
So we can all play together, folks.
929
00:42:42,720 --> 00:42:43,560
- I love that.
930
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:45,760
I'm so glad that you're also just, you know,
931
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,120
just as someone who really likes you and likes your work,
932
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,320
I'm so glad to hear that you're somewhere where,
933
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:51,840
like you can be your full self
934
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:53,840
and it feels like just hearing you speak about it,
935
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,560
there's that like breathability,
936
00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,280
the room for all kinds of multiple perspectives.
937
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,480
And I imagine that spirituality must be something
938
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:03,040
that for you is also incredibly personal
939
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,080
as someone with dissociative identities.
940
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:07,520
Because I'm a little curious about, you know,
941
00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:11,040
what you think about dick shwarts is kind of more recent
942
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,120
within the last couple months coming out
943
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:16,640
and talking about how parts are spirits, you know,
944
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,360
because if we don't have a relationship,
945
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,880
and my belief is that we all are spirits
946
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,520
and we are spirits that are in bodies, right?
947
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,560
And some of us have multiple consciousnesses
948
00:43:27,560 --> 00:43:29,200
that are attached to one body.
949
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,120
So I guess my question is like,
950
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:35,880
how would one, like how can you ignore the spiritual aspects
951
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:40,080
when we are all spirits of different sort of permutations?
952
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,360
- And I think in engaging in that conversation,
953
00:43:42,360 --> 00:43:45,160
kind of like whose evidence I would ask a client
954
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,120
at their people participant, what does spirit mean to you?
955
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,160
What does spirituality mean to you?
956
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,600
Because it can mean different things to different folks.
957
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,000
Now I will say and dick, if you're by chance hearing this,
958
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:58,520
I'd be happy to further have this conversation.
959
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:00,040
- All right, well,
960
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:01,280
I have a special episode.
961
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:05,160
- I have a test is a deeply spiritual modality
962
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,000
that is just palatable enough as spirituality
963
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:09,200
for Western psychology.
964
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,800
Sometimes I think dick wants to go further
965
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,720
and maybe in this new line of thinking he is
966
00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:17,400
with some of those spirituality.
967
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,200
And I don't know though if I necessarily agree
968
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,320
in every system, a person would see
969
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,440
or conceptualize their part as a spirit.
970
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,600
I think it could.
971
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,520
I know like in my system, I have,
972
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:32,800
I've talked about this in my work
973
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,760
like my four major parts that are on board with me
974
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,680
and I have this other part that very much feels like
975
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:40,640
the Linda's bubble around her in Wizard of Oz
976
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,160
or Wicked that it's the protective sheet.
977
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,840
Not how it's shown in the movie is like a cover
978
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:50,360
or like a facade, but my bubble has always felt like
979
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,120
this is this like ether of protection
980
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,000
that some people may see as a combination
981
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,440
of ancestors and guides.
982
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,280
And so I do think there's a definite part in my system
983
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,960
that I would certainly see as a spirit.
984
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:06,960
I'm not sure how I think about the others
985
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:09,040
other than they definitely have their own spirit
986
00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:10,400
in a small sense.
987
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:15,000
Like my four year old part's little spirit is bright and bubbly
988
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,720
and she's the one who still keeps the sense of joy in me
989
00:45:19,720 --> 00:45:21,600
when the world is falling down around.
990
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,400
So I think it's interesting to think about
991
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:26,680
but it goes back to an idea and dissociation made simple
992
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,280
when we talk about parts, people have every right
993
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,720
to language their parts and conceptualize their system
994
00:45:32,720 --> 00:45:35,520
and how they see them, however they choose.
995
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:38,320
- Yes, yes, absolutely.
996
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:40,280
I wanna bring on our producer Tomi
997
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,200
as we're starting to wrap up at the end of every episode.
998
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:46,000
Tomi comes on to ask a bit of a deep-cut question.
999
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:48,480
So Tomi, what question do you have prepared
1000
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:49,960
for Dr. Jamie today?
1001
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,040
- Yeah, so I actually had a little bit of outside help
1002
00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,480
on this because my therapist is a fan of your work.
1003
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:59,480
And given that you're well known enough
1004
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,640
that my therapist was like, wait, really?
1005
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,520
Like this was the first time she was excited
1006
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,120
about a podcast that I mentioned.
1007
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:07,040
- It's flattering.
1008
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,760
- So she was curious like how you maintain self-disclosure
1009
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:14,640
as such a well-known therapist?
1010
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:16,120
- It's a beautiful question.
1011
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,360
'Cause I'm passionate about guiding people
1012
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:20,920
through making their decisions around self-disclosure.
1013
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:22,960
I can sultanate ID courses on it.
1014
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:27,960
I personally will only share something that I feel
1015
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:32,040
I've worked on enough with my, it means,
1016
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,720
like there's, I always say there's a lot I share,
1017
00:46:33,720 --> 00:46:35,120
there's a lot I don't share.
1018
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:36,800
And the things I tend to share
1019
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,960
and disclose publicly, like everything I've showed
1020
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,960
on this podcast today are things that like my
1021
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,920
kind of internal sense was like, yeah, you can say it.
1022
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,560
You can deal with whatever blowback may come
1023
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:52,200
or you can, you've talked about this enough publicly
1024
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:53,760
that it's okay.
1025
00:46:53,760 --> 00:46:56,000
My early recovery mentor, this was in the days
1026
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,920
before social media, she would always say something like,
1027
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:02,040
don't share with the client something that you'd be embarrassed
1028
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,840
to have out in a newspaper.
1029
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:06,440
And the same thing, I wouldn't share in a newspaper
1030
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:07,960
something that I wouldn't feel comfortable
1031
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,360
having a conversation with my client about.
1032
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,560
'Cause that's what a lot of people come to me with
1033
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,520
if I come out about my political beliefs
1034
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:17,960
or my mental health diagnosis, what if a client sees it?
1035
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,600
And my immediate thing is that's a good question.
1036
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,600
Are you prepared to have that conversation with your client
1037
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:24,840
or your therapy participant?
1038
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:29,840
And if the answer is yes, and you think it is going to help you
1039
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:33,840
feel a greater degree of authentic, then go ahead and do it.
1040
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:36,120
I've also written quite a bit into association,
1041
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:37,040
it's simple too.
1042
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:38,680
Doesn't have to be an all or nothing thing.
1043
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:39,840
You could do it over time.
1044
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:41,640
I dipped my toe in.
1045
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,800
I would kind of feel out in professional spaces.
1046
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:46,440
Do these folks feel cool enough for me
1047
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,400
to use the word dissociation as it applies to me?
1048
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:54,400
And as I did it enough, I built that strength muscle.
1049
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:56,960
But when you're doing it with clients,
1050
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,640
it's also knowing, don't make this about you.
1051
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,360
It's if you and something you might share
1052
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:05,640
can really advance your relationship
1053
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:10,040
or has a definite therapeutic or healing benefit
1054
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,480
disclosed in moderation.
1055
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:14,680
But the key guide point is when you're doing it
1056
00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,200
with people you work with, it's never about you.
1057
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:20,400
May any self-disclosure be something
1058
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,000
that's in the service of your participant?
1059
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,800
With that level of self-disclosure both publicly
1060
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,240
and interpersonally, how would you say
1061
00:48:28,240 --> 00:48:31,760
that's affected your relationship with your clients?
1062
00:48:31,760 --> 00:48:35,320
So I'm in a privileged position at this point
1063
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:39,880
in that any client I work with, any consultee I work with now
1064
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:43,560
wants someone who has that level of transparency publicly.
1065
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,600
At an earlier point in my career,
1066
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:50,200
when I saw a greater frequency of clients
1067
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,440
with people who may or may not be cool
1068
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,600
with having such a public therapist,
1069
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,200
'cause even when people may approach me for therapy right now,
1070
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,840
at this point, it's not just a blind referral.
1071
00:49:00,840 --> 00:49:02,480
Most people have heard of me.
1072
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,160
And so I do a little back and forth about,
1073
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,120
what would it mean to you to have a therapist or a consultant
1074
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:09,320
who's more of a public figure?
1075
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,400
Does it feel like that would be a help or a deal breaker?
1076
00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:16,160
So that's a conversation I'm willing to have to.
1077
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:17,640
Thank you.
1078
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:20,520
Shout out to Kelsey for helping supply me with questions
1079
00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,080
and a little bit of a rundown on your previous work.
1080
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:24,040
My words.
1081
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,040
I love that too because at the end of the day,
1082
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:28,800
I know for me as a facilitator,
1083
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,760
I think honestly, my greatest strength is that I'm like,
1084
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,720
I'm just on this journey too, which means I'm still learning
1085
00:49:34,720 --> 00:49:36,440
and I'm still questioning myself.
1086
00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:40,040
And to pretend that I'm on some sort of pedestal,
1087
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:42,160
I have all the answers and you're gonna learn,
1088
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:44,280
it just feels disingenuous.
1089
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:47,560
The best groups that I think I run personally
1090
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,320
feel like a peer study.
1091
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,360
They feel like we're all in this together.
1092
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,800
I'm sharing the knowledge that I have with you,
1093
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,800
but I'm interested in learning just as much as I can from you.
1094
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,160
And I think that's such a great attitude to have.
1095
00:49:59,160 --> 00:50:01,320
I wanna thank you so much, Dr. Jamie,
1096
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:03,760
for appearing with us today.
1097
00:50:03,760 --> 00:50:06,520
What is some of the next work that folks can look forward to
1098
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:07,360
from you?
1099
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,120
What should we keep an eye out for as this podcast episode comes out?
1100
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:10,960
Sure.
1101
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,440
So, I'm gonna mention I am currently working on my book memoir
1102
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,560
writing as spiritual practice, so probably will not be out
1103
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:20,800
until 2027, but that's the next book to look out for.
1104
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:22,560
Thank you for shouting out my sub-stack,
1105
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:25,240
because that is a platform I am trying to build a little more
1106
00:50:25,240 --> 00:50:26,920
for my independent writing.
1107
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,040
We go by the Unicorn system on sub-stack.
1108
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,880
And I do have it set up where all of my major pieces
1109
00:50:33,880 --> 00:50:36,800
are no paywall, 'cause I want everybody be able
1110
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:38,160
to read them and share them.
1111
00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:40,640
But if you do wanna subscribe and support my work
1112
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:43,880
financially there you can, and I do give you some early previews
1113
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,280
into drafts of things I'm working on.
1114
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,720
So that's what I'm working on writing rise right now.
1115
00:50:48,720 --> 00:50:50,680
I'm in this process this year of,
1116
00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:53,360
I do have a lot on my plate with stepping away
1117
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,840
from more of the training part, especially the EMDR,
1118
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,360
I'm still gonna train, I'm still gonna teach,
1119
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:00,600
I'd love to teach.
1120
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:04,440
Yet getting away more from institutional training
1121
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:07,760
is something I am unraveling right now.
1122
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:09,960
Yet I hope to have even more time and space
1123
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,840
to write the things I wanna write.
1124
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,120
- Awesome, well thank you so much for being with us today.
1125
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,720
And I'm gonna encourage everyone who's listening to this.
1126
00:51:17,720 --> 00:51:20,440
Dr. Jamie has so many amazing books you guys.
1127
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,920
So definitely among her work there is going to be,
1128
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,440
I would wager a title that speaks to you
1129
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,080
that's going to help you with your own journey.
1130
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,760
And as we are thinking about taking our own healing
1131
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,600
and repotterning processes even more into our own hands
1132
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:38,520
so that we can empower ourselves for our own transformation.
1133
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:42,080
I encourage you to explore especially the expressive arts
1134
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,200
as Dr. Jamie and I have talked about today
1135
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,040
because it can be so very healing and integrating.
1136
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:49,920
Dr. Jamie thank you for sharing your experience with us today.
1137
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:51,360
It's been a pleasure having you
1138
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,440
and we'll see you all on the next episode.
1139
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,720
Go forth and repotterne.
1140
00:51:55,720 --> 00:52:02,360
Thank you for listening to the Repotterning podcast.
1141
00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:04,480
If you're curious about the Repotterning project,
1142
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:06,440
the eight week course in mental mastery
1143
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:09,320
and creative freedom that inspires these conversations
1144
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:12,800
you can check out more details at the repotterningproject.com.
1145
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,560
We run a cohort twice a year
1146
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:16,880
or you can download the self-study version of the course
1147
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:18,640
and get started today.
1148
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,400
We also offer a four week course
1149
00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:22,360
on narrative magic and archetype titled
1150
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:24,720
"Mitzen Magic Changing Your Life Through Story"
1151
00:52:24,720 --> 00:52:26,360
also twice a year.
1152
00:52:26,360 --> 00:52:27,920
If you'd like to join our community,
1153
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:30,160
the Repotterning Parlor on Discord
1154
00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:35,160
you can sign up for $5 a month at patreon.com/therepotterningpodcast.
1155
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,000
Thanks to everyone who makes the Re-Patterning podcast possible.
1156
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,920
Firstly, our award winning producer,
1157
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,560
Tomi Trembath of the Keymaster Collective Network of Podcasts.
1158
00:52:44,560 --> 00:52:47,040
She also produces transcending comics,
1159
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:50,040
vision in the void and giant-sized violence.
1160
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:53,120
Thanks also to Animation Studio Mortis and Madriacs
1161
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,400
who created the video for our introduction,
1162
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:56,760
as well as to Andrew Means
1163
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,400
who composed and produced our theme music.
1164
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:01,240
And also thanks to Al Alvarez,
1165
00:53:01,240 --> 00:53:03,080
who took the photos of yours truly that you see
1166
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,280
on the cover of each episode if you're watching the video version.
1167
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,000
And finally, thanks to you, our listeners,
1168
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:10,600
who give meaning to this work.
1169
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,840
Our greatest wish is that whatever you've heard today
1170
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:14,640
inspires you to live freely
1171
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,960
and begin creating your reality from the inside out.
1172
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,200
Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you again soon.
1173
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:30,200
[MUSIC]