Aidan Noone [00:00:03]:
Michael Mulvihill, thank you so much for joining me today. As I say to all my guests, to the professional hypnotherapist podcast, And I'm spitting all over the place here. Now, Michael, you have recently published a book and it's, this is it, Hypnosaga and, Unraveling the Threads of Hypnotic History. History. And I have to say it's a great read. It's definitely something very novel. It's quite, extensive. You go right you delve right back into into the past and from animal magnetism right up to the modern modern day and the the, the contribution that hypnosis and hypnotherapy makes to, modern day science or modern day medicine and psychological change, whatever.
Aidan Noone [00:00:59]:
But let's get talk about Michael Mulvihill briefly, if you don't mind. What was your motivation in in writing, this this book or researching this book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:01:11]:
It was it was twofold. I've been diagnosed with, like, basically requiring, double hip replacement. I've had osteoarthritis, so I needed to find empower myself in ways to fight that. And then, of course, I used my knowledge of hypnosis and my knowledge of kenpo karate to keep myself sane for the past five years.
Aidan Noone [00:01:38]:
You mentioned something there. What was it? Was that the, the karate? Was it her? The
Michael Mulvihill [00:01:44]:
Yeah. I have a black belt in in Kempo. And initially, the first person I was with, the first orthopedist believed that, it was caused by martial arts and wanted me to quit. So, obviously, I told them I'm never gonna quit, and I went with somebody else.
Aidan Noone [00:02:01]:
Right. Right. So that was your motivation for for writing the book.
Michael Mulvihill [00:02:07]:
And, also, there's another motivation. Sorry. I also felt that, people like to gaslight hypnosis and hypnotherapy. What we do is a beautiful thing, and I want to empower my fellow hypnotherapists to know deeply what it is that we do so they will not be gas lit or they won't be thought stopped by, media or by by by people who, want to want to kind of straightjackets hypnotherapy into a stereotype or bust being, diminutive in stature or lesser than. So that was another another reason.
Aidan Noone [00:02:44]:
Oh, excellent.
Michael Mulvihill [00:02:45]:
And, obviously,
Aidan Noone [00:02:46]:
you you feel very strong about this, Michael. It's something that obviously, you know, gets to your core. What you know, maybe can you develop that? What was at the heart of of the motivation there if if if I'm not repeating myself?
Michael Mulvihill [00:03:03]:
Pain, and, I think people need to know if you have double hit osteoarthritis, you can get very depressed, you can gain a lot of weight, and you can, you you you can become, immobile, and your your it can become so much more progressive. Whereas, I realized because I I I knew martial arts and hypnosis, which actually is a, a is a an alloy. They're not separate. I knew that if I use these two with good diets and with with good loving family I come from that I can actually, be healthy for my operation. And there were shocks at how healthy I was. But don't forget, you're talking to a person that that wouldn't particularly care to walk up the roads, but yet I was able to do exercise. And when I say that I, was able to conjoin martial arts, I feel when I'm doing a kata or when I'm doing karate, I'm actually doing wide open hypnosis.
Aidan Noone [00:04:03]:
Okay. So it's it's well, it's conscious hypnosis, isn't it? It's it's,
Michael Mulvihill [00:04:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. But that's that's as valid. Like, I I I've I've learned from studying hypnosis that your eyes are open, you still do you can still do hypnosis. It's just something Uh-huh. Although, when I really want to relax, I close my eyes, and I do hypnosis that way also.
Aidan Noone [00:04:25]:
Uh-huh. And, you know, when did you get the time to do this? So when did you research the book or indeed how long have you been researching it?
Michael Mulvihill [00:04:34]:
Well, it it it's it's it's not an easy book to write. It it would have taken a bit about two, about two two or three years, lunch breaks, maybe when my my my children are asleep. And every every spare moment I would get, I'd be or I'd be on my phone and I'd be getting on my Kindle on articles. And I and I'm saying to you, like, every chapter would have been a lot of, blood, sweat, and tears.
Aidan Noone [00:05:01]:
Wow. You know? Now it involves you going right back in history. And can you tell us what what was the the start of your research or where did you end up if if not if I'm making sense? So you have to start but at the same time you actually find yourself somewhere.
Michael Mulvihill [00:05:25]:
You see, we could we've got we we could get terribly convoluted about this because when does neither I or your good self or or have proprietorship over hypnosis. So where does it begin? Does it begin at that time in evolutionary development where we enter consciousness, and therefore, we can go back to our unconscious mind? So that was one one one complexity. But I realized that hypnosis is as old as we are human, and that's in itself is enough to grapple with. Yes. We you need in psychoanalytical parlance, I don't mean to sound pretentious. Right? You need to have a superego. You need to have a, a a a a super eye, a a sort of a conscious mind in order to be able to retrieve back to your preconscious and your own conscious. You get me? Yes.
Aidan Noone [00:06:18]:
Yes. So it's it's it's basically from the moment of of a birth or conception or birth.
Michael Mulvihill [00:06:26]:
Maybe a bit after that. Because maybe a bit after that because you you you you see, you won't go into hypnosis unless you have the the extra to to I think you have to have awareness to have Yeah. To go back into the unknown. Is that does that is that sound right?
Aidan Noone [00:06:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. It it does. You know, it's like a chicken and egg, you know, you know, you have to be conscious, you know, to to to to enter into any type of a contract or enter any enter any type of interaction with another person, in term even in speech or whatever. So I I I get what you're what you're what you're what you're coming out here, what you're getting at. So you went right back, obviously, you probably went back to ancient Egypt. Tell us about that.
Michael Mulvihill [00:07:17]:
Well, first of all, I went to the prehistorical societies and I because I have a child with with with special needs, so it's close to my heart. And I found that even in those societies, they they had caring attitudes towards I call them our children. So, and I suppose the point where I feel that hypnosis starts to kind of play a role in society is indeed around ancient Egypt, Imhotep. I found that very extraordinary to study it because it was a genuine, immersive, experience that they put the seeker they call it the seeker into. What I also found almost salvific about was, there was almost a sense of melancholia in studying it as well even though it was salvific because I realized that the ancient Egyptians suffered from terrible nostalgia. They believed that perfection was not in this life, but it was in the, in the in the start of the human race in the Garden Of Eden. And that's what they wanted to return to. So they were they were perpetually suffering from nostalgia.
Michael Mulvihill [00:08:25]:
They weren't just going into those moments at nighttime when we listen to the eighties news and go, god. Where did we all go wrong?
Aidan Noone [00:08:35]:
Absolutely. That's that's interesting. They they they suffer from nostalgia. And having that, what would it that capacity or that longing, where does hypnosis or where does the trans come in into that?
Michael Mulvihill [00:08:53]:
It it it comes into it because, basically, it shows it shows it humbles the likes of me who loves psych loves psychoanalysis. Dream interpretation doesn't come from Freud. It actually comes from the ancient Egyptians. So you would you would you would go into the temple, and you would you would be well educated by your your temple priest. And then you'd listen to all this gorgeous music and you go deep within the womb of the temple into this immersive experience, which means you're going directly within the hidden depths of the human mind. And you're you're basically the other way you you the other way hypnotherapy is very directed as opposed to non directive. I can clarify that if you want. But you're having a directed, dream, perhaps just a an element of acidity in it where you're having either a dream with the with a deity Imhotep, or you're having a healing dream, or you're having an existentialist dream where you will have something about your existence, something about your deeper self, your core will be will be transmitted in your dream.
Michael Mulvihill [00:10:04]:
And then you will take those contents, whatever it is that you remember, back to your healing priest, and they will help interpret what that dream means. So that's an awesome power that they were dealing with.
Aidan Noone [00:10:20]:
Mhmm. Okay. And it's it's it's definitely is. And comparing that and maybe I'm going all over the place here, but the matter
Michael Mulvihill [00:10:31]:
of weeks continue. Yeah. And and and I also by all means, we're we're reflecting what we're we're we're saying. It's it's a lot to to to package, a lot to take in.
Aidan Noone [00:10:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that, you know, that's many thousands of years ago, and, of course, a lot of it has application today. However, let's let's make a a quantum leap up to today in terms of dream dreams and our understanding of dreams. There's a total contrast there, isn't there, in terms of what we know dreams are now compared to what they were way back then?
Michael Mulvihill [00:11:08]:
Well, I I would respectfully say that the the power of dream is something that we might, underestimate. I don't think you would. So basically, there's at least two or three things going on there where, you can have within hypno hypnotherapy, we have healing dreams. So a lot of the time, clients don't wanna come to likes of your of your good self with dreams or they don't remember them, but you can ask them to have a a healing dream within within their hypnotherapy practice. But also, don't forget, a lot of the people who are coming to you, they if they have trauma, they suffer from nightmares. And I think within that system, you can you can also, teach them how to control their dreams through lucid dreaming. I think that lucid dreaming might have been part of that ancient system. But it's again, that's a chapter that I didn't get I didn't write.
Michael Mulvihill [00:12:04]:
You know, not all things fell into my into my into my book. I think that humans are vital, though, for a solid analysis of your of yourself.
Aidan Noone [00:12:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I I I agree. It's it's, it's it's essential that, we we, you know, we indeed write down our dreams and, you know, but you you touched on it earlier about dream interpretation. Maybe speak to that for a moment, please, if you don't mind.
Michael Mulvihill [00:12:34]:
So basically, Sigmund Freud wrote a huge book, Ziff Hick, in nineteen o one called The Interpretation of Dreams. And, I think Willem Steckel also wrote wrote an Interpretation of Dreams, if not Sandor Ferenczi. But his method of, treat treating dreams is you'd have the the manifest content, what the client would learn, and you would bring that to your to your psychoanalytical practice. I put you on on the couch and you'd say it to your to your patient or your your patient would say it to your analyst and then your analyst would would pick out the latest content and somehow the interpretation would of the dream would occur because between you, the client, or what we call the analyst and and the psychoanalyst, it will be in a court, an agreement that what was basically, the interpretation was correct. But for the likes of myself, I wouldn't find it by all means that easy to interpret a dream that way. But there are excellent ways within the psychoanalysis the the hypno psychoanalysis that our our own Joe our own good Joe Keating taught that can actually help us to interpret dreams in a ways that are less difficult for the therapist and for the patients.
Aidan Noone [00:13:56]:
Now you mentioned there, the hypnoanalysis and, you know, what what's your take on hypnoanalysis? I mean, how essential is it? Or the is it a is it, a a methodology that that is important nowadays? Has it a role nowadays?
Michael Mulvihill [00:14:16]:
Well, it it it I would I would I would feel it should have a role, a a sacred role in hypnotherapy because without hypno analysis, it would never have been, hypnotherapy. Scott, basically, did you did you ever did you ever think to yourself what is the difference between a a hypnotherapy book and a psychoanalytic book and a psychotherapy book? Well, I'll tell you the I'll tell you the difference right now. It's Right. Manualization. You have manuals in hypnotherapy books, the instructions. But in a psychoanalytic book, you don't have instructions. And that's why it's very hard for you or I to follow the method that Sigmund Freud used. Do you understand me? That's one key aspect.
Michael Mulvihill [00:15:01]:
But the other key aspect is, that where did that manualization come from? Well, that manualization of hypnotherapy books came from the first World War. It came from a necessity to to fluctuate psychoanalysis and to be able to treat patients that had trauma. So and the and the results were fantastic, I want us to add. You you had people who were able to return to the bosom of their family, healthy again. But that's the first time that hypnotherapists ever were able to kind of change from being kind of people that just offered suggestion therapy, which kinda sounds diminutive. But suggestion therapy is is is not as it's not as is is not lesser than by all means. It's just that, again, people don't know the history of suggestions therapy. But if we just keep with hypnoanalysis, I would say that it is a vital instrument of hypnotherapy, and I
Aidan Noone [00:16:06]:
can Mhmm.
Michael Mulvihill [00:16:07]:
Go further and further and further on that.
Aidan Noone [00:16:09]:
Yeah. No. No. That's that's all very good. Thank you so much for that. Just, a few notes I have here, I mean, in terms of the of the book, the, Hypnosaga, book that you published, Unraveling the Threads of Hypnotic History. You know, there the the topics that come to my mind is the evolution of hypnotherapy which is really important and number two contributions of pioneers the the main protagonists there like Mesmer, Lindner and shaping the field of hypnotherapy like hypnoanalysis that we've just mentioned in historical context like examining examining the use of hypnoanalysis during significant events such as its application during the first world war and indeed number four dispelling the myths about hypnosis. All of this is covered in your book hypnotherapy's role in treating various conditions.
Aidan Noone [00:17:05]:
Well something that that, since we were talking there about psychodynamic work, hypnoanalysis, and and historical context, tell us about the its application of the first World War, if it may, please.
Michael Mulvihill [00:17:18]:
Yeah. Well, I have two huge, books at home by psychiatrists, that I haven't read, which which spell out the methods that they use. But I want to be clear about about something is that we might perceive that, that hypno hypno psychotherapy was given en masse to every rank of soldier. That wasn't the case. So if you read a book called Hysteria by Andrew Scull, you'll soon realize the truth. The truth is that we have a bunch of, soldiers that were suffering from what's called shell shock. Okay? And they were seen and they were perceived I would say they were misperceived as malingerers. And initially, they wanted to just put them against the wall and shoot them.
Michael Mulvihill [00:18:05]:
They didn't know what to do with them. But they they would they, the psychiatrist would have used extreme amounts such as, such as, thyroidization, electric shock, even they use even coma therapy or sleep therapy, which is profoundly bad therapy, it can kill you. But so it was the officers who were getting the hypno analysis. It was them. It was who was the elite elite corps. And, you can kinda see that in, in in the likes of Seadrill and Sassoon. But what those meds would do is, you would have people with very devastating symptoms such as, paralysis of the where it will be kind of paralysis, but it would be not genuine paralysis, it would be psychological paralysis, whereas they could walk but they could not, like like, walk because it it was it was within their mind and it was at the aspect of their mind. But the aetiology or the the the the central core of of of of of that trauma was an initiating initial sensitizing event.
Michael Mulvihill [00:19:16]:
And that's what the hypno, therapist would have to work on is finding the root cause, and it could take several immortions, to find the root cause. Those it's it's sort of, it's sort of a lie to say you you can treat this within a few sessions. The the, the reality is that a solid hypno analysis would take six months, an hour and a half a day, and then the person would be good.
Aidan Noone [00:19:46]:
Wow. That's that's a lot. And,
Michael Mulvihill [00:19:49]:
It is a lot.
Aidan Noone [00:19:51]:
Yeah. The we talk we just I've highlighted just some notes I have here. They mean hypnotherapy's role in treating treating various conditions. And, let me see now. I have another questions here. How did yeah. I know we we spoke about it earlier, briefly, but what was your met your method of research in terms of of if if I may you know, maybe if we have covered this, you know, we we can move on. But something that occurs to me in terms of when you're writing a book such as this, you know, for anyone out there who's interested in writing a book, maybe on some other topic even, Where do you start? Well,
Michael Mulvihill [00:20:36]:
for me, I was able to have a good timeline, don't forget, because I, when I was a kid, I've done my first college essay on the history of madness, which is basically it's called madness because before psychiatry was invented, it was just simply there was no there was no it was called madness. So I had a timeline of discovery of the unconscious mind and that's what I went on was a timeline, from from that course where you would you would start on prehistory and I knew to conjoin to conjoin it with, with, with the history of the medical history. But then I found a lot of original text. So I found, Braze Neuropenology, his book. I found a a a book, by DeLauroce, which again was a nineteenth century book on hypnotherapy. So I was I said to myself, well, if people don't think I haven't found gold, I have hit gold because I found a lot of text that were, like, original old text. I even I even got a bit on Di Furia and Helen de Cuvelier. So I found a lot of the the original, writers that I was able to kind of, harvest.
Michael Mulvihill [00:21:52]:
But in terms of the timeline, I I I had a timeline and I had a good idea of what I wanted to to portray. And I still want to portray more, but that's why there'd be further volumes. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:22:06]:
Yeah. Now you mentioned it took it took about two or three years or whatever. Yeah. You're you're a bit of a heavyweight, Michael, aren't you?
Michael Mulvihill [00:22:13]:
Yeah. Well, you see, I I'd say I could say that I find, reading is my, is one of my addictions and then Right. And then obviously caring for my family and maybe a bit of faith, but that's my life.
Aidan Noone [00:22:28]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:22:29]:
And, yeah, I do I do love reading it. It keeps me sane. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:22:33]:
Right. My question is, you know, there seems to be no stone unturned, for you to produce a a work such as you have in Hypnosaga. Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you for that. Now they're the main there have been many, you know, protagonists if you want to call them in in the world of hypnosis like Mesmer and and, James Braid. Maybe you just touch mention a couple of them that or a few of them that, you know, that in your that you, believe are are significant or are are of importance.
Michael Mulvihill [00:23:11]:
Mesmer was amazing. I mean, I don't I think people would have a a diminutive opinion of him because they would say, oh, well, if he his opinion was that the the therapist has the power. But he was only going to what he knew at the time. But for me, Mesmer, was engaging in something that we fully don't understand and that is the nonverbal element of, therapy. And a a lot of a lot of patients, they can't verbalize what hell they experienced, but they can visualize. And what was so beautiful about Anton Mesmer's therapy, and I think this is something that you or anyone who's a therapist can actually hone in on was, first of all, the use of silence, which was a profound deepener for him. But also before he had his patients, he would he would basically meditate on the healing and the curing of his patient. He would he would basically visualize them being healed and visualize them being restored, which is a beautiful practice, you know.
Michael Mulvihill [00:24:32]:
So that was one of a one amazing thing he did, and, yes, it was seen and perhaps it was misperceived as being all about to do with the imagination, something that Anton Mesmer would have growled at the at the his heart as we're saying that about his therapy. But I think that his therapy, basically, it's it allowed the patient to enter deep within the hidden subconscious the deepest subconscious mind and we generally had, abreactions through this mysterious therapy. It was called the therapeutic crisis. And in modern hypnotherapy, we're a bit pressured about hypnother about about our reactions we like to, to intervene and go go to a safe place, breathe it out. But in the mesmeric code, if you're having a therapeutic crisis, the patient is just allowed to stay with us and the therapist does not intervene.
Aidan Noone [00:25:45]:
Yeah. Excellent. You know, what something that occurs to me, Michael, is that, you know, it it it is the client's trance. It is their experience. It's not necessary well, it's not the therapist's trance, you know, and this the whole area of non verbal is so important that it's not all about, you know, talking the therapist talking, talking, talking. It's it's allowing the client to I suppose and correct me if if what I'm saying it you know contradicts what you believe it's it's about allowing the the client to experience their own trans, their own internal world and somehow through the process or the help of the therapist, there is some sort of a resolution. Would you speak to that first, please?
Michael Mulvihill [00:26:38]:
I feel kind of melancholic, as well because I I agree so fundamentally with what you're saying. There are there are there are combat soldiers who would go, to hypnotherapists and some hypnotherapists would bring them into a very deep, deep, deep hypnosis and they would allow them to sit into hypnosis and they would basically picture their trauma and they'd be released that way as opposed to verbalizing it. The nonverbal is so so so profound and so mysterious. And I wrote that chapter on mesmerism with profound love because I have a child that cannot speak. So that's why and I feel like I haven't fully understood the nonverbal, but I certainly am dedicated to understanding that because I'm dedicated to understanding my son. But I would say the difference between my son's nonverbal experience and the nonverbal experience that we're talking about is that we that we he seems to be trapped in his world and we're trying to decode it. But I still think we are trying to decode our nonverbal elements within ourselves, which is the deepest part of the unconscious mind, the symbolic part. And that's possibly what people are trying to do.
Michael Mulvihill [00:28:04]:
They're trying to to to access the deepest parts within themselves because our modern world is so, is so busy and people are so distracted that they forget they even have an inner world.
Aidan Noone [00:28:20]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Excellent. I I I like that. Yeah. And, you know, the the scientific understanding of hypnosis over the years has changed, or has evolved as it were. Does modern science and psychology, you know, in any way, validate, the work of hypnosis and hypnotherapy in your opinion?
Michael Mulvihill [00:28:50]:
I guess it's the most overly researched, sort of, like, complimentary therapy of all the complimentary therapies. I would say that hypnotherapy is a radical, it's a subversive it's, it's it's profoundly promiscuous in a sense that you can find it in many, many fields. Right? But what I would say to it is that it is something that science cannot with its empirical outlook, it cannot measure, it cannot quantify, and therefore, it cannot possess. And that is the problem with hypnotherapy for them because they want the the whole idea of therapeutics now is outcome focused, solution focused. And that's been the case especially since the nineteen fifties because before that, the world was very open to psychoanalysis and hypnotherapy. But but in the nineteen fifties, they realized, hold on. We can actually control minds without having to use the standard forebearers of psychiatry, which are straightjacketing lobotomy, ECT, solitary confinement. We can control minds through psychopharmacological compounds and therefore, the whole therapeutic outlay had to be all about short term yellow pack therapy, and not long term therapy, and not really, you know, and had to be about empiricism.
Michael Mulvihill [00:30:32]:
And it had to be about what's measurable. Now CBT is measurable. Behavioral therapy is the most, measurable, scientific of all the psychologies. But, hypnosis and psychoanalysis is more of a sort of an art and that's hard to quantify. It's hard to define, and it's hard to experiment upon. However, I warn you that there are, elements that, of of hypnosis certainly that, powers that be certainly do want to know and some and sometimes they want to misuse it. And it's probably the most heartbreaking element of what we do, hypnotherapy and hypnosis and NLP and all that, is that it can be extracted and it can be used by, not by by bad actors. And I think that's something that the average hypnotherapist knows nothing about.
Michael Mulvihill [00:31:34]:
You know?
Aidan Noone [00:31:35]:
Yeah. I I like what you say there. I I I think I think that's a really important point that you made. In terms of, you know, would you say that, that hypnosis is just a form of a placebo? What what's your response to that?
Michael Mulvihill [00:31:56]:
I think it's a dangerous idea to put across. I'm not saying you pull it across.
Aidan Noone [00:32:00]:
No. No.
Michael Mulvihill [00:32:00]:
I I said that you got a lot of you got a lot of, alternative therapists who love to call everything a placebo. Yeah. And and then they love to talk in dichotomies of, oh, I'm not doing the curing. The client is doing the curing. They're not that that that that kind of so I would call it fragmented thought doesn't explain the whole amazing process of what we are doing. And and and I wish to talk about the the therapeutic alliance, the transference, and the the the the awesome power of the subconscious mind, which is something that the western mind does not fully fully understand. So, yeah, I I I feel that we're doing well beyond what we understand when we're we're doing hypnotherapy. Hypnotherapy don't think it's a a placebo.
Michael Mulvihill [00:32:58]:
I think it's it's activating the inner showing elements of our mind and the problem solving elements within our mind. It's a lot to take in, isn't it?
Aidan Noone [00:33:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. And just slightly to go back because you mentioned the hypnotherapy is, you know, you can't quantify it. You can't put it in a box. You can't sort of almost you can't label it as it were. Although we do label hypnosis, but exactly what is it? It's it's you you can't touch it.
Michael Mulvihill [00:33:31]:
But hypnosis or or hypnotherapy, I can I can answer to both?
Aidan Noone [00:33:35]:
Yeah. Well, give give us your give us your take on that, please.
Michael Mulvihill [00:33:39]:
So for me, hypnosis is an analgesic. It's a powerful analgesic. Trust me. I I've I've been doing it because, I I've had my left hip cut out of me. So it's a powerful anesthesia. It's a powerful relaxer. It's a powerful, anxiolytic, but it's a powerful antidepressant. So it is a gift from mother nature, which has gone all the way back from our earliest healers, the the medicine man.
Michael Mulvihill [00:34:14]:
So it it is a a gift. Now hypnotherapeutics, that's again, that's what we're doing even right now. We're we're we're conversing. We're we're it's dialogical. You understand me? Before it was monologuing. So you go to, like, your and it it you would tell him your your whole your whole problem, and he would give it back to you through a whole in a hyper intelligent script. He would tell you the the way to the promised land, but then you have your Breuer. But if you want to know the true author of all therapy was a woman named Anna o, Bertha Poppenheim because she taught Joe Severe how to treat her.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:00]:
It was called the talking cure and then, of course, Freud took over from that. So it is a dialogical
Aidan Noone [00:35:07]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:09]:
Right. Entity is what we're talking when we're talking about therapeutics.
Aidan Noone [00:35:13]:
Lovely. I I love the I love the, you know, the Anna O, where she, you know, she taught, as you mentioned, Briar, how to treat her. And, you know, in in many regards and, again, maybe just some jumping out into space here.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:31]:
I want
Aidan Noone [00:35:31]:
you to regards.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:32]:
Yeah. Go with me. I'm also there.
Aidan Noone [00:35:36]:
You know, in many regards, that I mean, that's that's on that's the case with every client, isn't it, really?
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:43]:
The, you see, you're dealing with mysterious forces that your average therapist might know anything about. I'm not talking every therapist. Your average cognitive behavioral therapist doesn't know fully what they're dealing with. You're dealing with something so awesome as the unconscious mind. And often, you will hear therapists going, oh, they did not come what they presented. It was I found out it was something else. Well, take your time because that's something else would be something else and something else. When you're there as a witness to their suffering and you are as Freud said, you're taking out the wounds, but it's that element which you called God, that unknown element that is healing the wounds, that is fasting.
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:29]:
All we're doing is fasting the stitches.
Aidan Noone [00:36:32]:
Yeah. You're still a vital part
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:34]:
in that, by the way.
Aidan Noone [00:36:36]:
Beg your pardon?
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:37]:
You're still a vital part in that. It's not a case of I'm not doing the curing, therefore, I'm just sitting back on and and, you know, having a beer. With a therapist, it's very, very important. They are controlling their countertransference and they are dealing with the transference of the patient, which is not an easy thing to do, my friend.
Aidan Noone [00:37:00]:
Indeed. Do you believe, in your opinion, Michael, that, that hypnosis is is underutilized in modern day medicine? And if you do, Of course, it is underutilized. Yeah. Yeah. What what needs to change in order for it to be more utilized, more used? Well,
Michael Mulvihill [00:37:24]:
what what would need to be changed is a change of mind. Hypnotherapist need to start empowering themselves and steep start they need to start reading books like I read or even my book to start with because then they might go, oh, heck. What I'm actually doing is awesome. It's it's it's not just mechanical. It's not just, oh, I'm curing this and that, and I'm just not just a niche. But doctors need to start talking to us, and they start they they need to start realizing that we have a mandate. We actually have a mandate because, psychopharmacology and pharmacological compounds are overly prescribed in this country, and the patient is dying to talk to us. We also need to stop straight jacketing ourselves and being dogmatic about who we can treat and who we cannot treat.
Michael Mulvihill [00:38:22]:
Read more books. Stop telling me that this condition, that condition is contraindicated and we can't go near it. No. It's not contraindicated. Your lack of reading is contraindicated to the truth of what it is that you are doing as a therapist. Because if Lindner treated psychopaths and psychotics and if Braith treated epilepsy, well, surely you can at least say you can treat trauma. There's some there's some hypnotherapists that think they can't even go near trauma. They need to have an additional cost, course at extra cost.
Michael Mulvihill [00:38:57]:
There's some hypnotherapist who feel they can't treat alcoholics or drug addicts. You certainly can. And if you tell me you can't treat psychosis, you can. Now this takes responsible ethical therapy by all means, but there is to to let's just be clear. To to to to mental illness, there is two compounds. There there there's two there's two features. There's the endogenous, bio biological element of us. That means we treat it with drugs by all means.
Michael Mulvihill [00:39:29]:
There is the exogenous. There is the reactive element, and that is what people are dying to talk to you about. And it's important that we open the doors to these people, their son or son and their son or daughter, and they're dying to talk to, but they're being caged in. The system is not reaching out to them. The doctors are not are not reaching out to them. After a two or three minutes, they're they're signing the the piece of paper and they're letting go.
Aidan Noone [00:39:57]:
You know, what occurs to me, Michael, is that, you know, that the that in many regards that the the treatment modalities that are that are available or or indeed are allowed to be available more like
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:10]:
Like that.
Aidan Noone [00:40:11]:
Or in many, many way many, regard that they're unsuitable.
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:17]:
Well, yeah. Or just the professionalization of what we're doing as well, like, especially in America, everything is a qualification. Everything is a, a certificate. So if you want to be a psychotherapist, that's well and good. But if you if a client comes in your door that is an alcoholic, you also have to have a cast. And if you're in the state of New York, which is a potential alcohol substance abuse cancer certification. However, the reality is that the Lawrence in nineteen o one was treating alcoholics. So he had no problems with treating people.
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:52]:
Now if you're telling me, is it is is it is it safe to to treat of course. Of course, you have to analyze what you're dealing with. I'm not telling people that you that that that that you go and treat a psychopath tomorrow. No. Poor Lendner, had a horrible time, if you're if if you read that, they even got assaulted by by one of his patients and it it took a heavy toll on his health. He was chain smoking. He treated a Nazi as we know. He treated a communist, and he he treated the victims of this and, had terrible effect on his health.
Michael Mulvihill [00:41:26]:
He died at the age of 43. What I all I'm trying to say is that you remember the I think one of my quotes was from Eric Erickson at the end. Is that the one? You know more than you know, and we are more powerful than we know as hypnotherapists. But I don't think we're willing to to fully understand our power because we live in enormously litigious society, don't forget.
Aidan Noone [00:41:48]:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I I that's a that's a really important point that you make. And, you know, I know we we we probably covered it earlier, and it's just, I suppose, a parallel, parallelism in that and we're talking about your book or but we're also talking about hypnosis and and the other aspect of hypnotherapy. And you mentioned that it is a powerful analgesic and you know for any lay person out there who has chronic pain you know like for example, yourself, you've gone through, hip surgery. What's your experience in using hypnosis for pain relief?
Michael Mulvihill [00:42:37]:
Talk to talk to me about it exactly Because for the past five years, I had extreme osteoarthritis. I'm proud to say that because I don't do anything in halves. And I was given a bunch of medication, and I just throw it away. And I would just do my I would call it Tai Chi, how I was practicing it. I would breathe. I'd practice my breathing and I would do lots and lots of, lots and lots of martial arts standing. And I felt I was going into trance. And then, of course, I would listen to lots of of of of hypnosis.
Michael Mulvihill [00:43:12]:
So I was kind of saying to myself, I will only take these medications when the pain is really hurting me. And my experience is that it's not that the pain is not there, but you can teach your mind to be distracted from it through trance. The pain is there for sure. I did not I did use anesthesia when I went into the surgery, so I I hope you don't think I'm achieved. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, I but but but but in fairness, if you read my book, you'll see that there are so many patients that were using Mesmerism as the sole form of anesthesia. So I I used anesthetics.
Michael Mulvihill [00:43:48]:
But in truth, I after surgery, I started listening to instrumental music, closing my eyes and going deep into trance. And what I did was, even though my hip had been growling, it would it would I would I would be so distracted that I would go into a a different world, and that distraction is so nice. So but people who are living in chronic pain, they they can fall into addiction. The OxyContin, catastrophe, which was led by corporate greed and, and and criminality basically, that has destroyed the core of of some of the heart of America because it was it was done by the Sackler family who agreed. And it was called the war on pain, but all it was was the war on on on and it was given to people it was basically an opioid. If people understand the history of opium, they would have completely objected. But this this opioid in the tapest was promiscuously overprescribed. But I'm saying to you right now that, first of all, you don't give opium to a person with an average condition like like osteoarthritis.
Michael Mulvihill [00:45:04]:
You give to people with terminal cancer. Okay? So that's one thing that we make clear. But the other thing I wanna say is that you can control your pain until the day you die, and you can control it naturally through using and learning how to use progressive muscular relaxation exercises, breathing techniques, and going deep into your subconscious mind and allowing that healing peace and that serenity to overwhelm you and ask for that healing energy, whether it's divine or whatever, to flow through your body in and and and surrender to the science and surrender to that healing because it's it's it's it's going to save you, you know? It's going to save
Aidan Noone [00:45:56]:
you. Interesting, indeed. You're probably familiar, Michael, with, you know, what what happened during the, the Vietnam war where the American soldiers they you know they they all got high on on on heroin a lot of them got high on heroin not them all but a lot got high on heroin and you know the American government realized this and they made huge preparations back home to treat these men when they arrived back. Now the surprising thing about it is that when they arrive back in in The States, only a small percentage of them had had the addiction. Isn't that interesting?
Michael Mulvihill [00:46:45]:
Yeah. I would I would think well, first of all, I have, your man's book, Born on the July 4, which I haven't which I haven't fully read it because it's so heartbreaking. That's not supposed to stop me from reading it. I would read through it. I think what you're talking about there is that you're you're dealing with a severe trauma. You're a young lad. You're brought over to Vietnam, and you have, group dynamics. Right? So you're you're taking your heroin amongst a group of lads, but you're also anesthetizing yourself from the sheer hell of fighting in an unfamiliar territory like a jungle.
Michael Mulvihill [00:47:28]:
So basically, you are self medicating. So a lot of addiction is about self medicating. So sometimes, you might have candidates who are, drug addicts or alcoholics, and they may have a co occurring or comorbid condition. And that's their genuine reason why they are addicts. Because but the underlying feature of all addiction is what it is. It is, of course, trauma, and trauma is the underlying theme of addiction.
Aidan Noone [00:47:58]:
Mhmm. Yes.
Michael Mulvihill [00:47:59]:
So you don't treat you don't treat addiction by simply detoxing. You treat addiction by by detraumatizing and by taking that out and going through it, And that's called working through. That's the the the psych the psychological term for
Aidan Noone [00:48:15]:
that. Interesting. Where do you in your opinion, Michael, do you see hypnosis and hypnotherapy in the next ten to twenty years?
Michael Mulvihill [00:48:31]:
Well, I think that it's safe enough because it's offer a lot a lot of the people are offering short term therapies, and that's the sort of society we're living in. People don't have the financial means for long term therapy, and they can make extraordinary gains, would you believe, in in a short space of time. And the question is why Does that mean that humanistic therapy and psychoanalysis should should quit the job? It doesn't. There's another thing that we we tend to forget is that when you go to a hypnotherapist, they'll, they'll listen to you and they'll take a good account of what you're about and they'll give you a personalized, audio which you can carry with you. And that can that can carry with you for a year or two or three years. So you're giving yourself additional therapy. Right? So and also because hypnotherapy is so profound, you can go deeper than yourself. The hidden depths is is is is is an expression I learned from a great book by by the history of hypnotherapy.
Michael Mulvihill [00:49:41]:
If you go deeper in yourself and you can oddly enough, you can say things and you can unveil things that you never would have said in maybe six hundred hours of of psychotherapy. And it hurts me to say that not because I ever had six hundred hours of of of psychotherapy, but because I love psychoanalysis. So I'm I'm hurting myself by by by by by admitting very, very, very, very reluctantly that hypnotherapy, of course, is very, very powerful. But that doesn't mean that you're gonna you're gonna detox me from reading all my psychological books, which I absolutely adore and always will.
Aidan Noone [00:50:23]:
Excellent. Now the the book where where where for the benefit of our our listeners and people viewing, it's, if we can see it there, Hypno Saga. Now I would say, Michael, that it's it's a very easy read and I think if I may say to you that it's you have gone back as it were done the research, you've you've analyzed everything, you've collated everything and you have it's a testament to your capacity, in my opinion, to put as it were, often complex terminology and express it in English, simple English, that people can understand. And to that regard, I would say urge people that if any interest in hypnotherapy and hypnosis, get this book because you will enjoy it. It's it's easy to understand because Michael has done the the work for you. And, in in in that regard, Michael, where can we get the book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:51:37]:
Well, you you can get it on Amazon. And, if you're, like so basically, if you're in the likes of The UK, go to Amazon UK, that will cut the cost a bit. And, obviously,
Aidan Noone [00:51:49]:
leave
Michael Mulvihill [00:51:49]:
a review, or or or whatever or or or or just let people know that my book exists, especially within the hypnotherapy. And I I'm open to lectures. I'm open to, I'm open to more podcasts. I'm very open to doing things, albeit within the restricted time I have.
Aidan Noone [00:52:09]:
Great. Now what as the author of the book Hypnosaga, what would you, what do you hope that readers take away from from the book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:52:22]:
Well, I would hope that they would take away the fact that, we're not a bunch of losers who are just messing around with things like like, like, I remember a lovely a lovely hypnotherapist and she was interviewed by a a person on on on radio and he absolutely he was abductiously, arrogant and he just wanted to portray us as a laughingstock and as a, as sort of something that's of insignificance. In my book, I clearly document that that bona fide medical doctors, bona fide psychiatrists, even dentists, surgeons such as your the the the Irish surgeon, I read I read two of his books. They took hypnosis and hypnotherapy deadly seriously. And we weren't we are not just meddling in the occult or in some strange spirituality, which might put people who are wherever in a cult off. No. We we have a bona fide, and genuine history.
Aidan Noone [00:53:33]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:53:34]:
And we we we have even been accepted, and it's acknowledged by medicine that hypnosis is a tool, a clinical tool.
Aidan Noone [00:53:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. And if there was a message that you'd want the readers to take away, may maybe you've said it there, but if there was anything else that you'd like the reader to take away from this book, what would it be?
Michael Mulvihill [00:53:57]:
Hypnosis can, can can can save your life, and it can and it and it can actually, and hypnotherapy, and it can actually improve the quality of your life, you know. And Yeah. But I would also say because I'm I would have my own prejudice, I would say that that that hypnosis is a with with martial arts because because I've seen what martial arts has done for me, in my in my in my recovery and in my in my fighting osteoarthritis that it it is an alloy. But that shouldn't surprise you because tai chi when I see people doing tai chi, I feel that they're doing hypnosis. So I would say I I would also wanna tell people the power of breath, if you don't breathe, obviously. But no. Breathing, learning how to breathe, that's how you can
Aidan Noone [00:54:57]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:54:58]:
You can take away the tension and you can take away the trauma. So I would say if people could learn two things, one, that our history is a powerful history, and two, that what we're doing can save your life. All you have to do we don't wanna go for a therapist. All you have to do is simply listen to an audio, and you can go into a wonderful place of deep relaxation. And even if you have all of the troubles, the world on your shoulders, they can melt away for that hour.
Aidan Noone [00:55:33]:
Okay. Now you mentioned, Michael, that you're available to to give talks.
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:39]:
Yeah.
Aidan Noone [00:55:39]:
You're available to do further podcasts.
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:43]:
Absolutely.
Aidan Noone [00:55:45]:
Are you are you seeing clients?
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:48]:
No. Because, of of, of my I'm I'm absolutely dedicated looking after a child with special needs.
Aidan Noone [00:55:54]:
Oh, okay. Okay. But I
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:56]:
I I will do I will do that when there comes that time. There may never come that time, but we'll see.
Aidan Noone [00:56:03]:
Yeah. Anyway, I want to, thank you so much for, speaking to me today on the podcast. This is the book, Hypnosaga, unraveling the, you tell us what it is, I I unraveling the threads of
Michael Mulvihill [00:56:20]:
All unraveling the thread of hypnotic of hypnotic history. Yeah.
Aidan Noone [00:56:24]:
Yeah. And that's the book, and you can get it in, Amazon as you mentioned. I'd highly recommend it. It definitely is a textbook that is easily understood. Michael, as I said, has done the research, he has gone through all the the research and collated in such a way and expressed it in writing that you know literally anyone can understand and to that regard it's it's it it is it is a masterpiece because it's it's not easy to go back and you know do all this research and discover or read all the the big terminologies but Michael has done that for you so highly recommended. Is there any final message that you'd like to give us Michael?
Michael Mulvihill [00:57:20]:
No. No. I mean, just just to say that you're you would've you would've been you would've been my ideal reader because you're you're, in chronic terms, you're a sensei. You're you're long you're longer doing it than me hypnotherapy. So when you tell me it's a masterpiece, that's absolutely amazing for me to hear that. It's it's it's it's So You know?
Aidan Noone [00:57:41]:
Lovely. How can we how can anyone out there contact you if they want to do a pod for the podcast or, a
Michael Mulvihill [00:57:48]:
Well, I I mean, I'm I'm I'm very present online. I'm just author, michael mobile author author michael mobile at g mail dot com, mobile p at y mail dot com. On Facebook, I'm author Michael Mueller. Just send me a friend request. I'm I'm on TikTok as dark days dawning. I couldn't think of a of a I couldn't think of a more happier title out on YouTube. You know, there's a a great woman who has a podcast, it's about Colson Sachs and it's Sarah Peel. She called Let's Talk About Sex.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:25]:
That's a fantastic title. And her her work ethic inspired me. But, unfortunately, I'm not I've been a nerd. I I I my my YouTube channel is Dark Days Dawn, and it's it's not it's not a great title.
Aidan Noone [00:58:41]:
Alright. Well, Michael Mulvihill, thank you so much for
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:44]:
joining me today. Thank you so much.
Aidan Noone [00:58:47]:
I look forward to the next time.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:50]:
Yeah. Well, the next time would be when I hopefully, when I write another book. You know? And hopefully, it'll be as good as this one. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:58:57]:
Yeah. Take care, Michael.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:58]:
Thank you. And and and thank you for everything.
Michael Mulvihill, thank you so much for joining me today. As I say to all my guests, to the professional hypnotherapist podcast, And I'm spitting all over the place here. Now, Michael, you have recently published a book and it's, this is it, Hypnosaga and, Unraveling the Threads of Hypnotic History. History. And I have to say it's a great read. It's definitely something very novel. It's quite, extensive. You go right you delve right back into into the past and from animal magnetism right up to the modern modern day and the the, the contribution that hypnosis and hypnotherapy makes to, modern day science or modern day medicine and psychological change, whatever.
Aidan Noone [00:00:59]:
But let's get talk about Michael Mulvihill briefly, if you don't mind. What was your motivation in in writing, this this book or researching this book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:01:11]:
It was it was twofold. I've been diagnosed with, like, basically requiring, double hip replacement. I've had osteoarthritis, so I needed to find empower myself in ways to fight that. And then, of course, I used my knowledge of hypnosis and my knowledge of kenpo karate to keep myself sane for the past five years.
Aidan Noone [00:01:38]:
You mentioned something there. What was it? Was that the, the karate? Was it her? The
Michael Mulvihill [00:01:44]:
Yeah. I have a black belt in in Kempo. And initially, the first person I was with, the first orthopedist believed that, it was caused by martial arts and wanted me to quit. So, obviously, I told them I'm never gonna quit, and I went with somebody else.
Aidan Noone [00:02:01]:
Right. Right. So that was your motivation for for writing the book.
Michael Mulvihill [00:02:07]:
And, also, there's another motivation. Sorry. I also felt that, people like to gaslight hypnosis and hypnotherapy. What we do is a beautiful thing, and I want to empower my fellow hypnotherapists to know deeply what it is that we do so they will not be gas lit or they won't be thought stopped by, media or by by by people who, want to want to kind of straightjackets hypnotherapy into a stereotype or bust being, diminutive in stature or lesser than. So that was another another reason.
Aidan Noone [00:02:44]:
Oh, excellent.
Michael Mulvihill [00:02:45]:
And, obviously,
Aidan Noone [00:02:46]:
you you feel very strong about this, Michael. It's something that obviously, you know, gets to your core. What you know, maybe can you develop that? What was at the heart of of the motivation there if if if I'm not repeating myself?
Michael Mulvihill [00:03:03]:
Pain, and, I think people need to know if you have double hit osteoarthritis, you can get very depressed, you can gain a lot of weight, and you can, you you you can become, immobile, and your your it can become so much more progressive. Whereas, I realized because I I I knew martial arts and hypnosis, which actually is a, a is a an alloy. They're not separate. I knew that if I use these two with good diets and with with good loving family I come from that I can actually, be healthy for my operation. And there were shocks at how healthy I was. But don't forget, you're talking to a person that that wouldn't particularly care to walk up the roads, but yet I was able to do exercise. And when I say that I, was able to conjoin martial arts, I feel when I'm doing a kata or when I'm doing karate, I'm actually doing wide open hypnosis.
Aidan Noone [00:04:03]:
Okay. So it's it's well, it's conscious hypnosis, isn't it? It's it's,
Michael Mulvihill [00:04:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. But that's that's as valid. Like, I I I've I've learned from studying hypnosis that your eyes are open, you still do you can still do hypnosis. It's just something Uh-huh. Although, when I really want to relax, I close my eyes, and I do hypnosis that way also.
Aidan Noone [00:04:25]:
Uh-huh. And, you know, when did you get the time to do this? So when did you research the book or indeed how long have you been researching it?
Michael Mulvihill [00:04:34]:
Well, it it it's it's it's not an easy book to write. It it would have taken a bit about two, about two two or three years, lunch breaks, maybe when my my my children are asleep. And every every spare moment I would get, I'd be or I'd be on my phone and I'd be getting on my Kindle on articles. And I and I'm saying to you, like, every chapter would have been a lot of, blood, sweat, and tears.
Aidan Noone [00:05:01]:
Wow. You know? Now it involves you going right back in history. And can you tell us what what was the the start of your research or where did you end up if if not if I'm making sense? So you have to start but at the same time you actually find yourself somewhere.
Michael Mulvihill [00:05:25]:
You see, we could we've got we we could get terribly convoluted about this because when does neither I or your good self or or have proprietorship over hypnosis. So where does it begin? Does it begin at that time in evolutionary development where we enter consciousness, and therefore, we can go back to our unconscious mind? So that was one one one complexity. But I realized that hypnosis is as old as we are human, and that's in itself is enough to grapple with. Yes. We you need in psychoanalytical parlance, I don't mean to sound pretentious. Right? You need to have a superego. You need to have a, a a a a super eye, a a sort of a conscious mind in order to be able to retrieve back to your preconscious and your own conscious. You get me? Yes.
Aidan Noone [00:06:18]:
Yes. So it's it's it's basically from the moment of of a birth or conception or birth.
Michael Mulvihill [00:06:26]:
Maybe a bit after that. Because maybe a bit after that because you you you you see, you won't go into hypnosis unless you have the the extra to to I think you have to have awareness to have Yeah. To go back into the unknown. Is that does that is that sound right?
Aidan Noone [00:06:44]:
Yeah. Yeah. It it does. You know, it's like a chicken and egg, you know, you know, you have to be conscious, you know, to to to to enter into any type of a contract or enter any enter any type of interaction with another person, in term even in speech or whatever. So I I I get what you're what you're what you're what you're coming out here, what you're getting at. So you went right back, obviously, you probably went back to ancient Egypt. Tell us about that.
Michael Mulvihill [00:07:17]:
Well, first of all, I went to the prehistorical societies and I because I have a child with with with special needs, so it's close to my heart. And I found that even in those societies, they they had caring attitudes towards I call them our children. So, and I suppose the point where I feel that hypnosis starts to kind of play a role in society is indeed around ancient Egypt, Imhotep. I found that very extraordinary to study it because it was a genuine, immersive, experience that they put the seeker they call it the seeker into. What I also found almost salvific about was, there was almost a sense of melancholia in studying it as well even though it was salvific because I realized that the ancient Egyptians suffered from terrible nostalgia. They believed that perfection was not in this life, but it was in the, in the in the start of the human race in the Garden Of Eden. And that's what they wanted to return to. So they were they were perpetually suffering from nostalgia.
Michael Mulvihill [00:08:25]:
They weren't just going into those moments at nighttime when we listen to the eighties news and go, god. Where did we all go wrong?
Aidan Noone [00:08:35]:
Absolutely. That's that's interesting. They they they suffer from nostalgia. And having that, what would it that capacity or that longing, where does hypnosis or where does the trans come in into that?
Michael Mulvihill [00:08:53]:
It it it comes into it because, basically, it shows it shows it humbles the likes of me who loves psych loves psychoanalysis. Dream interpretation doesn't come from Freud. It actually comes from the ancient Egyptians. So you would you would you would go into the temple, and you would you would be well educated by your your temple priest. And then you'd listen to all this gorgeous music and you go deep within the womb of the temple into this immersive experience, which means you're going directly within the hidden depths of the human mind. And you're you're basically the other way you you the other way hypnotherapy is very directed as opposed to non directive. I can clarify that if you want. But you're having a directed, dream, perhaps just a an element of acidity in it where you're having either a dream with the with a deity Imhotep, or you're having a healing dream, or you're having an existentialist dream where you will have something about your existence, something about your deeper self, your core will be will be transmitted in your dream.
Michael Mulvihill [00:10:04]:
And then you will take those contents, whatever it is that you remember, back to your healing priest, and they will help interpret what that dream means. So that's an awesome power that they were dealing with.
Aidan Noone [00:10:20]:
Mhmm. Okay. And it's it's it's definitely is. And comparing that and maybe I'm going all over the place here, but the matter
Michael Mulvihill [00:10:31]:
of weeks continue. Yeah. And and and I also by all means, we're we're reflecting what we're we're we're saying. It's it's a lot to to to package, a lot to take in.
Aidan Noone [00:10:40]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm saying that, you know, that's many thousands of years ago, and, of course, a lot of it has application today. However, let's let's make a a quantum leap up to today in terms of dream dreams and our understanding of dreams. There's a total contrast there, isn't there, in terms of what we know dreams are now compared to what they were way back then?
Michael Mulvihill [00:11:08]:
Well, I I would respectfully say that the the power of dream is something that we might, underestimate. I don't think you would. So basically, there's at least two or three things going on there where, you can have within hypno hypnotherapy, we have healing dreams. So a lot of the time, clients don't wanna come to likes of your of your good self with dreams or they don't remember them, but you can ask them to have a a healing dream within within their hypnotherapy practice. But also, don't forget, a lot of the people who are coming to you, they if they have trauma, they suffer from nightmares. And I think within that system, you can you can also, teach them how to control their dreams through lucid dreaming. I think that lucid dreaming might have been part of that ancient system. But it's again, that's a chapter that I didn't get I didn't write.
Michael Mulvihill [00:12:04]:
You know, not all things fell into my into my into my book. I think that humans are vital, though, for a solid analysis of your of yourself.
Aidan Noone [00:12:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I I I I agree. It's it's, it's it's essential that, we we, you know, we indeed write down our dreams and, you know, but you you touched on it earlier about dream interpretation. Maybe speak to that for a moment, please, if you don't mind.
Michael Mulvihill [00:12:34]:
So basically, Sigmund Freud wrote a huge book, Ziff Hick, in nineteen o one called The Interpretation of Dreams. And, I think Willem Steckel also wrote wrote an Interpretation of Dreams, if not Sandor Ferenczi. But his method of, treat treating dreams is you'd have the the manifest content, what the client would learn, and you would bring that to your to your psychoanalytical practice. I put you on on the couch and you'd say it to your to your patient or your your patient would say it to your analyst and then your analyst would would pick out the latest content and somehow the interpretation would of the dream would occur because between you, the client, or what we call the analyst and and the psychoanalyst, it will be in a court, an agreement that what was basically, the interpretation was correct. But for the likes of myself, I wouldn't find it by all means that easy to interpret a dream that way. But there are excellent ways within the psychoanalysis the the hypno psychoanalysis that our our own Joe our own good Joe Keating taught that can actually help us to interpret dreams in a ways that are less difficult for the therapist and for the patients.
Aidan Noone [00:13:56]:
Now you mentioned there, the hypnoanalysis and, you know, what what's your take on hypnoanalysis? I mean, how essential is it? Or the is it a is it, a a methodology that that is important nowadays? Has it a role nowadays?
Michael Mulvihill [00:14:16]:
Well, it it it I would I would I would feel it should have a role, a a sacred role in hypnotherapy because without hypno analysis, it would never have been, hypnotherapy. Scott, basically, did you did you ever did you ever think to yourself what is the difference between a a hypnotherapy book and a psychoanalytic book and a psychotherapy book? Well, I'll tell you the I'll tell you the difference right now. It's Right. Manualization. You have manuals in hypnotherapy books, the instructions. But in a psychoanalytic book, you don't have instructions. And that's why it's very hard for you or I to follow the method that Sigmund Freud used. Do you understand me? That's one key aspect.
Michael Mulvihill [00:15:01]:
But the other key aspect is, that where did that manualization come from? Well, that manualization of hypnotherapy books came from the first World War. It came from a necessity to to fluctuate psychoanalysis and to be able to treat patients that had trauma. So and the and the results were fantastic, I want us to add. You you had people who were able to return to the bosom of their family, healthy again. But that's the first time that hypnotherapists ever were able to kind of change from being kind of people that just offered suggestion therapy, which kinda sounds diminutive. But suggestion therapy is is is not as it's not as is is not lesser than by all means. It's just that, again, people don't know the history of suggestions therapy. But if we just keep with hypnoanalysis, I would say that it is a vital instrument of hypnotherapy, and I
Aidan Noone [00:16:06]:
can Mhmm.
Michael Mulvihill [00:16:07]:
Go further and further and further on that.
Aidan Noone [00:16:09]:
Yeah. No. No. That's that's all very good. Thank you so much for that. Just, a few notes I have here, I mean, in terms of the of the book, the, Hypnosaga, book that you published, Unraveling the Threads of Hypnotic History. You know, there the the topics that come to my mind is the evolution of hypnotherapy which is really important and number two contributions of pioneers the the main protagonists there like Mesmer, Lindner and shaping the field of hypnotherapy like hypnoanalysis that we've just mentioned in historical context like examining examining the use of hypnoanalysis during significant events such as its application during the first world war and indeed number four dispelling the myths about hypnosis. All of this is covered in your book hypnotherapy's role in treating various conditions.
Aidan Noone [00:17:05]:
Well something that that, since we were talking there about psychodynamic work, hypnoanalysis, and and historical context, tell us about the its application of the first World War, if it may, please.
Michael Mulvihill [00:17:18]:
Yeah. Well, I have two huge, books at home by psychiatrists, that I haven't read, which which spell out the methods that they use. But I want to be clear about about something is that we might perceive that, that hypno hypno psychotherapy was given en masse to every rank of soldier. That wasn't the case. So if you read a book called Hysteria by Andrew Scull, you'll soon realize the truth. The truth is that we have a bunch of, soldiers that were suffering from what's called shell shock. Okay? And they were seen and they were perceived I would say they were misperceived as malingerers. And initially, they wanted to just put them against the wall and shoot them.
Michael Mulvihill [00:18:05]:
They didn't know what to do with them. But they they would they, the psychiatrist would have used extreme amounts such as, such as, thyroidization, electric shock, even they use even coma therapy or sleep therapy, which is profoundly bad therapy, it can kill you. But so it was the officers who were getting the hypno analysis. It was them. It was who was the elite elite corps. And, you can kinda see that in, in in the likes of Seadrill and Sassoon. But what those meds would do is, you would have people with very devastating symptoms such as, paralysis of the where it will be kind of paralysis, but it would be not genuine paralysis, it would be psychological paralysis, whereas they could walk but they could not, like like, walk because it it was it was within their mind and it was at the aspect of their mind. But the aetiology or the the the the central core of of of of of that trauma was an initiating initial sensitizing event.
Michael Mulvihill [00:19:16]:
And that's what the hypno, therapist would have to work on is finding the root cause, and it could take several immortions, to find the root cause. Those it's it's sort of, it's sort of a lie to say you you can treat this within a few sessions. The the, the reality is that a solid hypno analysis would take six months, an hour and a half a day, and then the person would be good.
Aidan Noone [00:19:46]:
Wow. That's that's a lot. And,
Michael Mulvihill [00:19:49]:
It is a lot.
Aidan Noone [00:19:51]:
Yeah. The we talk we just I've highlighted just some notes I have here. They mean hypnotherapy's role in treating treating various conditions. And, let me see now. I have another questions here. How did yeah. I know we we spoke about it earlier, briefly, but what was your met your method of research in terms of of if if I may you know, maybe if we have covered this, you know, we we can move on. But something that occurs to me in terms of when you're writing a book such as this, you know, for anyone out there who's interested in writing a book, maybe on some other topic even, Where do you start? Well,
Michael Mulvihill [00:20:36]:
for me, I was able to have a good timeline, don't forget, because I, when I was a kid, I've done my first college essay on the history of madness, which is basically it's called madness because before psychiatry was invented, it was just simply there was no there was no it was called madness. So I had a timeline of discovery of the unconscious mind and that's what I went on was a timeline, from from that course where you would you would start on prehistory and I knew to conjoin to conjoin it with, with, with the history of the medical history. But then I found a lot of original text. So I found, Braze Neuropenology, his book. I found a a a book, by DeLauroce, which again was a nineteenth century book on hypnotherapy. So I was I said to myself, well, if people don't think I haven't found gold, I have hit gold because I found a lot of text that were, like, original old text. I even I even got a bit on Di Furia and Helen de Cuvelier. So I found a lot of the the original, writers that I was able to kind of, harvest.
Michael Mulvihill [00:21:52]:
But in terms of the timeline, I I I had a timeline and I had a good idea of what I wanted to to portray. And I still want to portray more, but that's why there'd be further volumes. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:22:06]:
Yeah. Now you mentioned it took it took about two or three years or whatever. Yeah. You're you're a bit of a heavyweight, Michael, aren't you?
Michael Mulvihill [00:22:13]:
Yeah. Well, you see, I I'd say I could say that I find, reading is my, is one of my addictions and then Right. And then obviously caring for my family and maybe a bit of faith, but that's my life.
Aidan Noone [00:22:28]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:22:29]:
And, yeah, I do I do love reading it. It keeps me sane. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:22:33]:
Right. My question is, you know, there seems to be no stone unturned, for you to produce a a work such as you have in Hypnosaga. Yeah. Yeah. No. Thank you for that. Now they're the main there have been many, you know, protagonists if you want to call them in in the world of hypnosis like Mesmer and and, James Braid. Maybe you just touch mention a couple of them that or a few of them that, you know, that in your that you, believe are are significant or are are of importance.
Michael Mulvihill [00:23:11]:
Mesmer was amazing. I mean, I don't I think people would have a a diminutive opinion of him because they would say, oh, well, if he his opinion was that the the therapist has the power. But he was only going to what he knew at the time. But for me, Mesmer, was engaging in something that we fully don't understand and that is the nonverbal element of, therapy. And a a lot of a lot of patients, they can't verbalize what hell they experienced, but they can visualize. And what was so beautiful about Anton Mesmer's therapy, and I think this is something that you or anyone who's a therapist can actually hone in on was, first of all, the use of silence, which was a profound deepener for him. But also before he had his patients, he would he would basically meditate on the healing and the curing of his patient. He would he would basically visualize them being healed and visualize them being restored, which is a beautiful practice, you know.
Michael Mulvihill [00:24:32]:
So that was one of a one amazing thing he did, and, yes, it was seen and perhaps it was misperceived as being all about to do with the imagination, something that Anton Mesmer would have growled at the at the his heart as we're saying that about his therapy. But I think that his therapy, basically, it's it allowed the patient to enter deep within the hidden subconscious the deepest subconscious mind and we generally had, abreactions through this mysterious therapy. It was called the therapeutic crisis. And in modern hypnotherapy, we're a bit pressured about hypnother about about our reactions we like to, to intervene and go go to a safe place, breathe it out. But in the mesmeric code, if you're having a therapeutic crisis, the patient is just allowed to stay with us and the therapist does not intervene.
Aidan Noone [00:25:45]:
Yeah. Excellent. You know, what something that occurs to me, Michael, is that, you know, it it it is the client's trance. It is their experience. It's not necessary well, it's not the therapist's trance, you know, and this the whole area of non verbal is so important that it's not all about, you know, talking the therapist talking, talking, talking. It's it's allowing the client to I suppose and correct me if if what I'm saying it you know contradicts what you believe it's it's about allowing the the client to experience their own trans, their own internal world and somehow through the process or the help of the therapist, there is some sort of a resolution. Would you speak to that first, please?
Michael Mulvihill [00:26:38]:
I feel kind of melancholic, as well because I I agree so fundamentally with what you're saying. There are there are there are combat soldiers who would go, to hypnotherapists and some hypnotherapists would bring them into a very deep, deep, deep hypnosis and they would allow them to sit into hypnosis and they would basically picture their trauma and they'd be released that way as opposed to verbalizing it. The nonverbal is so so so profound and so mysterious. And I wrote that chapter on mesmerism with profound love because I have a child that cannot speak. So that's why and I feel like I haven't fully understood the nonverbal, but I certainly am dedicated to understanding that because I'm dedicated to understanding my son. But I would say the difference between my son's nonverbal experience and the nonverbal experience that we're talking about is that we that we he seems to be trapped in his world and we're trying to decode it. But I still think we are trying to decode our nonverbal elements within ourselves, which is the deepest part of the unconscious mind, the symbolic part. And that's possibly what people are trying to do.
Michael Mulvihill [00:28:04]:
They're trying to to to access the deepest parts within themselves because our modern world is so, is so busy and people are so distracted that they forget they even have an inner world.
Aidan Noone [00:28:20]:
Mhmm. Yeah. Excellent. I I I like that. Yeah. And, you know, the the scientific understanding of hypnosis over the years has changed, or has evolved as it were. Does modern science and psychology, you know, in any way, validate, the work of hypnosis and hypnotherapy in your opinion?
Michael Mulvihill [00:28:50]:
I guess it's the most overly researched, sort of, like, complimentary therapy of all the complimentary therapies. I would say that hypnotherapy is a radical, it's a subversive it's, it's it's profoundly promiscuous in a sense that you can find it in many, many fields. Right? But what I would say to it is that it is something that science cannot with its empirical outlook, it cannot measure, it cannot quantify, and therefore, it cannot possess. And that is the problem with hypnotherapy for them because they want the the whole idea of therapeutics now is outcome focused, solution focused. And that's been the case especially since the nineteen fifties because before that, the world was very open to psychoanalysis and hypnotherapy. But but in the nineteen fifties, they realized, hold on. We can actually control minds without having to use the standard forebearers of psychiatry, which are straightjacketing lobotomy, ECT, solitary confinement. We can control minds through psychopharmacological compounds and therefore, the whole therapeutic outlay had to be all about short term yellow pack therapy, and not long term therapy, and not really, you know, and had to be about empiricism.
Michael Mulvihill [00:30:32]:
And it had to be about what's measurable. Now CBT is measurable. Behavioral therapy is the most, measurable, scientific of all the psychologies. But, hypnosis and psychoanalysis is more of a sort of an art and that's hard to quantify. It's hard to define, and it's hard to experiment upon. However, I warn you that there are, elements that, of of hypnosis certainly that, powers that be certainly do want to know and some and sometimes they want to misuse it. And it's probably the most heartbreaking element of what we do, hypnotherapy and hypnosis and NLP and all that, is that it can be extracted and it can be used by, not by by bad actors. And I think that's something that the average hypnotherapist knows nothing about.
Michael Mulvihill [00:31:34]:
You know?
Aidan Noone [00:31:35]:
Yeah. I I like what you say there. I I I think I think that's a really important point that you made. In terms of, you know, would you say that, that hypnosis is just a form of a placebo? What what's your response to that?
Michael Mulvihill [00:31:56]:
I think it's a dangerous idea to put across. I'm not saying you pull it across.
Aidan Noone [00:32:00]:
No. No.
Michael Mulvihill [00:32:00]:
I I said that you got a lot of you got a lot of, alternative therapists who love to call everything a placebo. Yeah. And and then they love to talk in dichotomies of, oh, I'm not doing the curing. The client is doing the curing. They're not that that that that kind of so I would call it fragmented thought doesn't explain the whole amazing process of what we are doing. And and and I wish to talk about the the therapeutic alliance, the transference, and the the the the awesome power of the subconscious mind, which is something that the western mind does not fully fully understand. So, yeah, I I I feel that we're doing well beyond what we understand when we're we're doing hypnotherapy. Hypnotherapy don't think it's a a placebo.
Michael Mulvihill [00:32:58]:
I think it's it's activating the inner showing elements of our mind and the problem solving elements within our mind. It's a lot to take in, isn't it?
Aidan Noone [00:33:09]:
Yeah. Yeah. And just slightly to go back because you mentioned the hypnotherapy is, you know, you can't quantify it. You can't put it in a box. You can't sort of almost you can't label it as it were. Although we do label hypnosis, but exactly what is it? It's it's you you can't touch it.
Michael Mulvihill [00:33:31]:
But hypnosis or or hypnotherapy, I can I can answer to both?
Aidan Noone [00:33:35]:
Yeah. Well, give give us your give us your take on that, please.
Michael Mulvihill [00:33:39]:
So for me, hypnosis is an analgesic. It's a powerful analgesic. Trust me. I I've I've been doing it because, I I've had my left hip cut out of me. So it's a powerful anesthesia. It's a powerful relaxer. It's a powerful, anxiolytic, but it's a powerful antidepressant. So it is a gift from mother nature, which has gone all the way back from our earliest healers, the the medicine man.
Michael Mulvihill [00:34:14]:
So it it is a a gift. Now hypnotherapeutics, that's again, that's what we're doing even right now. We're we're we're conversing. We're we're it's dialogical. You understand me? Before it was monologuing. So you go to, like, your and it it you would tell him your your whole your whole problem, and he would give it back to you through a whole in a hyper intelligent script. He would tell you the the way to the promised land, but then you have your Breuer. But if you want to know the true author of all therapy was a woman named Anna o, Bertha Poppenheim because she taught Joe Severe how to treat her.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:00]:
It was called the talking cure and then, of course, Freud took over from that. So it is a dialogical
Aidan Noone [00:35:07]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:09]:
Right. Entity is what we're talking when we're talking about therapeutics.
Aidan Noone [00:35:13]:
Lovely. I I love the I love the, you know, the Anna O, where she, you know, she taught, as you mentioned, Briar, how to treat her. And, you know, in in many regards and, again, maybe just some jumping out into space here.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:31]:
I want
Aidan Noone [00:35:31]:
you to regards.
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:32]:
Yeah. Go with me. I'm also there.
Aidan Noone [00:35:36]:
You know, in many regards, that I mean, that's that's on that's the case with every client, isn't it, really?
Michael Mulvihill [00:35:43]:
The, you see, you're dealing with mysterious forces that your average therapist might know anything about. I'm not talking every therapist. Your average cognitive behavioral therapist doesn't know fully what they're dealing with. You're dealing with something so awesome as the unconscious mind. And often, you will hear therapists going, oh, they did not come what they presented. It was I found out it was something else. Well, take your time because that's something else would be something else and something else. When you're there as a witness to their suffering and you are as Freud said, you're taking out the wounds, but it's that element which you called God, that unknown element that is healing the wounds, that is fasting.
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:29]:
All we're doing is fasting the stitches.
Aidan Noone [00:36:32]:
Yeah. You're still a vital part
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:34]:
in that, by the way.
Aidan Noone [00:36:36]:
Beg your pardon?
Michael Mulvihill [00:36:37]:
You're still a vital part in that. It's not a case of I'm not doing the curing, therefore, I'm just sitting back on and and, you know, having a beer. With a therapist, it's very, very important. They are controlling their countertransference and they are dealing with the transference of the patient, which is not an easy thing to do, my friend.
Aidan Noone [00:37:00]:
Indeed. Do you believe, in your opinion, Michael, that, that hypnosis is is underutilized in modern day medicine? And if you do, Of course, it is underutilized. Yeah. Yeah. What what needs to change in order for it to be more utilized, more used? Well,
Michael Mulvihill [00:37:24]:
what what would need to be changed is a change of mind. Hypnotherapist need to start empowering themselves and steep start they need to start reading books like I read or even my book to start with because then they might go, oh, heck. What I'm actually doing is awesome. It's it's it's not just mechanical. It's not just, oh, I'm curing this and that, and I'm just not just a niche. But doctors need to start talking to us, and they start they they need to start realizing that we have a mandate. We actually have a mandate because, psychopharmacology and pharmacological compounds are overly prescribed in this country, and the patient is dying to talk to us. We also need to stop straight jacketing ourselves and being dogmatic about who we can treat and who we cannot treat.
Michael Mulvihill [00:38:22]:
Read more books. Stop telling me that this condition, that condition is contraindicated and we can't go near it. No. It's not contraindicated. Your lack of reading is contraindicated to the truth of what it is that you are doing as a therapist. Because if Lindner treated psychopaths and psychotics and if Braith treated epilepsy, well, surely you can at least say you can treat trauma. There's some there's some hypnotherapists that think they can't even go near trauma. They need to have an additional cost, course at extra cost.
Michael Mulvihill [00:38:57]:
There's some hypnotherapist who feel they can't treat alcoholics or drug addicts. You certainly can. And if you tell me you can't treat psychosis, you can. Now this takes responsible ethical therapy by all means, but there is to to let's just be clear. To to to to mental illness, there is two compounds. There there there's two there's two features. There's the endogenous, bio biological element of us. That means we treat it with drugs by all means.
Michael Mulvihill [00:39:29]:
There is the exogenous. There is the reactive element, and that is what people are dying to talk to you about. And it's important that we open the doors to these people, their son or son and their son or daughter, and they're dying to talk to, but they're being caged in. The system is not reaching out to them. The doctors are not are not reaching out to them. After a two or three minutes, they're they're signing the the piece of paper and they're letting go.
Aidan Noone [00:39:57]:
You know, what occurs to me, Michael, is that, you know, that the that in many regards that the the treatment modalities that are that are available or or indeed are allowed to be available more like
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:10]:
Like that.
Aidan Noone [00:40:11]:
Or in many, many way many, regard that they're unsuitable.
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:17]:
Well, yeah. Or just the professionalization of what we're doing as well, like, especially in America, everything is a qualification. Everything is a, a certificate. So if you want to be a psychotherapist, that's well and good. But if you if a client comes in your door that is an alcoholic, you also have to have a cast. And if you're in the state of New York, which is a potential alcohol substance abuse cancer certification. However, the reality is that the Lawrence in nineteen o one was treating alcoholics. So he had no problems with treating people.
Michael Mulvihill [00:40:52]:
Now if you're telling me, is it is is it is it safe to to treat of course. Of course, you have to analyze what you're dealing with. I'm not telling people that you that that that that you go and treat a psychopath tomorrow. No. Poor Lendner, had a horrible time, if you're if if you read that, they even got assaulted by by one of his patients and it it took a heavy toll on his health. He was chain smoking. He treated a Nazi as we know. He treated a communist, and he he treated the victims of this and, had terrible effect on his health.
Michael Mulvihill [00:41:26]:
He died at the age of 43. What I all I'm trying to say is that you remember the I think one of my quotes was from Eric Erickson at the end. Is that the one? You know more than you know, and we are more powerful than we know as hypnotherapists. But I don't think we're willing to to fully understand our power because we live in enormously litigious society, don't forget.
Aidan Noone [00:41:48]:
Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I I that's a that's a really important point that you make. And, you know, I know we we we probably covered it earlier, and it's just, I suppose, a parallel, parallelism in that and we're talking about your book or but we're also talking about hypnosis and and the other aspect of hypnotherapy. And you mentioned that it is a powerful analgesic and you know for any lay person out there who has chronic pain you know like for example, yourself, you've gone through, hip surgery. What's your experience in using hypnosis for pain relief?
Michael Mulvihill [00:42:37]:
Talk to talk to me about it exactly Because for the past five years, I had extreme osteoarthritis. I'm proud to say that because I don't do anything in halves. And I was given a bunch of medication, and I just throw it away. And I would just do my I would call it Tai Chi, how I was practicing it. I would breathe. I'd practice my breathing and I would do lots and lots of, lots and lots of martial arts standing. And I felt I was going into trance. And then, of course, I would listen to lots of of of of hypnosis.
Michael Mulvihill [00:43:12]:
So I was kind of saying to myself, I will only take these medications when the pain is really hurting me. And my experience is that it's not that the pain is not there, but you can teach your mind to be distracted from it through trance. The pain is there for sure. I did not I did use anesthesia when I went into the surgery, so I I hope you don't think I'm achieved. But yeah. Yeah. I mean, I but but but but in fairness, if you read my book, you'll see that there are so many patients that were using Mesmerism as the sole form of anesthesia. So I I used anesthetics.
Michael Mulvihill [00:43:48]:
But in truth, I after surgery, I started listening to instrumental music, closing my eyes and going deep into trance. And what I did was, even though my hip had been growling, it would it would I would I would be so distracted that I would go into a a different world, and that distraction is so nice. So but people who are living in chronic pain, they they can fall into addiction. The OxyContin, catastrophe, which was led by corporate greed and, and and criminality basically, that has destroyed the core of of some of the heart of America because it was it was done by the Sackler family who agreed. And it was called the war on pain, but all it was was the war on on on and it was given to people it was basically an opioid. If people understand the history of opium, they would have completely objected. But this this opioid in the tapest was promiscuously overprescribed. But I'm saying to you right now that, first of all, you don't give opium to a person with an average condition like like osteoarthritis.
Michael Mulvihill [00:45:04]:
You give to people with terminal cancer. Okay? So that's one thing that we make clear. But the other thing I wanna say is that you can control your pain until the day you die, and you can control it naturally through using and learning how to use progressive muscular relaxation exercises, breathing techniques, and going deep into your subconscious mind and allowing that healing peace and that serenity to overwhelm you and ask for that healing energy, whether it's divine or whatever, to flow through your body in and and and surrender to the science and surrender to that healing because it's it's it's it's going to save you, you know? It's going to save
Aidan Noone [00:45:56]:
you. Interesting, indeed. You're probably familiar, Michael, with, you know, what what happened during the, the Vietnam war where the American soldiers they you know they they all got high on on on heroin a lot of them got high on heroin not them all but a lot got high on heroin and you know the American government realized this and they made huge preparations back home to treat these men when they arrived back. Now the surprising thing about it is that when they arrive back in in The States, only a small percentage of them had had the addiction. Isn't that interesting?
Michael Mulvihill [00:46:45]:
Yeah. I would I would think well, first of all, I have, your man's book, Born on the July 4, which I haven't which I haven't fully read it because it's so heartbreaking. That's not supposed to stop me from reading it. I would read through it. I think what you're talking about there is that you're you're dealing with a severe trauma. You're a young lad. You're brought over to Vietnam, and you have, group dynamics. Right? So you're you're taking your heroin amongst a group of lads, but you're also anesthetizing yourself from the sheer hell of fighting in an unfamiliar territory like a jungle.
Michael Mulvihill [00:47:28]:
So basically, you are self medicating. So a lot of addiction is about self medicating. So sometimes, you might have candidates who are, drug addicts or alcoholics, and they may have a co occurring or comorbid condition. And that's their genuine reason why they are addicts. Because but the underlying feature of all addiction is what it is. It is, of course, trauma, and trauma is the underlying theme of addiction.
Aidan Noone [00:47:58]:
Mhmm. Yes.
Michael Mulvihill [00:47:59]:
So you don't treat you don't treat addiction by simply detoxing. You treat addiction by by detraumatizing and by taking that out and going through it, And that's called working through. That's the the the psych the psychological term for
Aidan Noone [00:48:15]:
that. Interesting. Where do you in your opinion, Michael, do you see hypnosis and hypnotherapy in the next ten to twenty years?
Michael Mulvihill [00:48:31]:
Well, I think that it's safe enough because it's offer a lot a lot of the people are offering short term therapies, and that's the sort of society we're living in. People don't have the financial means for long term therapy, and they can make extraordinary gains, would you believe, in in a short space of time. And the question is why Does that mean that humanistic therapy and psychoanalysis should should quit the job? It doesn't. There's another thing that we we tend to forget is that when you go to a hypnotherapist, they'll, they'll listen to you and they'll take a good account of what you're about and they'll give you a personalized, audio which you can carry with you. And that can that can carry with you for a year or two or three years. So you're giving yourself additional therapy. Right? So and also because hypnotherapy is so profound, you can go deeper than yourself. The hidden depths is is is is is an expression I learned from a great book by by the history of hypnotherapy.
Michael Mulvihill [00:49:41]:
If you go deeper in yourself and you can oddly enough, you can say things and you can unveil things that you never would have said in maybe six hundred hours of of psychotherapy. And it hurts me to say that not because I ever had six hundred hours of of of psychotherapy, but because I love psychoanalysis. So I'm I'm hurting myself by by by by by admitting very, very, very, very reluctantly that hypnotherapy, of course, is very, very powerful. But that doesn't mean that you're gonna you're gonna detox me from reading all my psychological books, which I absolutely adore and always will.
Aidan Noone [00:50:23]:
Excellent. Now the the book where where where for the benefit of our our listeners and people viewing, it's, if we can see it there, Hypno Saga. Now I would say, Michael, that it's it's a very easy read and I think if I may say to you that it's you have gone back as it were done the research, you've you've analyzed everything, you've collated everything and you have it's a testament to your capacity, in my opinion, to put as it were, often complex terminology and express it in English, simple English, that people can understand. And to that regard, I would say urge people that if any interest in hypnotherapy and hypnosis, get this book because you will enjoy it. It's it's easy to understand because Michael has done the the work for you. And, in in in that regard, Michael, where can we get the book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:51:37]:
Well, you you can get it on Amazon. And, if you're, like so basically, if you're in the likes of The UK, go to Amazon UK, that will cut the cost a bit. And, obviously,
Aidan Noone [00:51:49]:
leave
Michael Mulvihill [00:51:49]:
a review, or or or whatever or or or or just let people know that my book exists, especially within the hypnotherapy. And I I'm open to lectures. I'm open to, I'm open to more podcasts. I'm very open to doing things, albeit within the restricted time I have.
Aidan Noone [00:52:09]:
Great. Now what as the author of the book Hypnosaga, what would you, what do you hope that readers take away from from the book?
Michael Mulvihill [00:52:22]:
Well, I would hope that they would take away the fact that, we're not a bunch of losers who are just messing around with things like like, like, I remember a lovely a lovely hypnotherapist and she was interviewed by a a person on on on radio and he absolutely he was abductiously, arrogant and he just wanted to portray us as a laughingstock and as a, as sort of something that's of insignificance. In my book, I clearly document that that bona fide medical doctors, bona fide psychiatrists, even dentists, surgeons such as your the the the Irish surgeon, I read I read two of his books. They took hypnosis and hypnotherapy deadly seriously. And we weren't we are not just meddling in the occult or in some strange spirituality, which might put people who are wherever in a cult off. No. We we have a bona fide, and genuine history.
Aidan Noone [00:53:33]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:53:34]:
And we we we have even been accepted, and it's acknowledged by medicine that hypnosis is a tool, a clinical tool.
Aidan Noone [00:53:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. And if there was a message that you'd want the readers to take away, may maybe you've said it there, but if there was anything else that you'd like the reader to take away from this book, what would it be?
Michael Mulvihill [00:53:57]:
Hypnosis can, can can can save your life, and it can and it and it can actually, and hypnotherapy, and it can actually improve the quality of your life, you know. And Yeah. But I would also say because I'm I would have my own prejudice, I would say that that that hypnosis is a with with martial arts because because I've seen what martial arts has done for me, in my in my in my recovery and in my in my fighting osteoarthritis that it it is an alloy. But that shouldn't surprise you because tai chi when I see people doing tai chi, I feel that they're doing hypnosis. So I would say I I would also wanna tell people the power of breath, if you don't breathe, obviously. But no. Breathing, learning how to breathe, that's how you can
Aidan Noone [00:54:57]:
Yeah.
Michael Mulvihill [00:54:58]:
You can take away the tension and you can take away the trauma. So I would say if people could learn two things, one, that our history is a powerful history, and two, that what we're doing can save your life. All you have to do we don't wanna go for a therapist. All you have to do is simply listen to an audio, and you can go into a wonderful place of deep relaxation. And even if you have all of the troubles, the world on your shoulders, they can melt away for that hour.
Aidan Noone [00:55:33]:
Okay. Now you mentioned, Michael, that you're available to to give talks.
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:39]:
Yeah.
Aidan Noone [00:55:39]:
You're available to do further podcasts.
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:43]:
Absolutely.
Aidan Noone [00:55:45]:
Are you are you seeing clients?
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:48]:
No. Because, of of, of my I'm I'm absolutely dedicated looking after a child with special needs.
Aidan Noone [00:55:54]:
Oh, okay. Okay. But I
Michael Mulvihill [00:55:56]:
I I will do I will do that when there comes that time. There may never come that time, but we'll see.
Aidan Noone [00:56:03]:
Yeah. Anyway, I want to, thank you so much for, speaking to me today on the podcast. This is the book, Hypnosaga, unraveling the, you tell us what it is, I I unraveling the threads of
Michael Mulvihill [00:56:20]:
All unraveling the thread of hypnotic of hypnotic history. Yeah.
Aidan Noone [00:56:24]:
Yeah. And that's the book, and you can get it in, Amazon as you mentioned. I'd highly recommend it. It definitely is a textbook that is easily understood. Michael, as I said, has done the research, he has gone through all the the research and collated in such a way and expressed it in writing that you know literally anyone can understand and to that regard it's it's it it is it is a masterpiece because it's it's not easy to go back and you know do all this research and discover or read all the the big terminologies but Michael has done that for you so highly recommended. Is there any final message that you'd like to give us Michael?
Michael Mulvihill [00:57:20]:
No. No. I mean, just just to say that you're you would've you would've been you would've been my ideal reader because you're you're, in chronic terms, you're a sensei. You're you're long you're longer doing it than me hypnotherapy. So when you tell me it's a masterpiece, that's absolutely amazing for me to hear that. It's it's it's it's So You know?
Aidan Noone [00:57:41]:
Lovely. How can we how can anyone out there contact you if they want to do a pod for the podcast or, a
Michael Mulvihill [00:57:48]:
Well, I I mean, I'm I'm I'm very present online. I'm just author, michael mobile author author michael mobile at g mail dot com, mobile p at y mail dot com. On Facebook, I'm author Michael Mueller. Just send me a friend request. I'm I'm on TikTok as dark days dawning. I couldn't think of a of a I couldn't think of a more happier title out on YouTube. You know, there's a a great woman who has a podcast, it's about Colson Sachs and it's Sarah Peel. She called Let's Talk About Sex.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:25]:
That's a fantastic title. And her her work ethic inspired me. But, unfortunately, I'm not I've been a nerd. I I I my my YouTube channel is Dark Days Dawn, and it's it's not it's not a great title.
Aidan Noone [00:58:41]:
Alright. Well, Michael Mulvihill, thank you so much for
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:44]:
joining me today. Thank you so much.
Aidan Noone [00:58:47]:
I look forward to the next time.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:50]:
Yeah. Well, the next time would be when I hopefully, when I write another book. You know? And hopefully, it'll be as good as this one. You know?
Aidan Noone [00:58:57]:
Yeah. Take care, Michael.
Michael Mulvihill [00:58:58]:
Thank you. And and and thank you for everything.
