Adam: Yeah, we're good, Jason.
jason: podcast. I'm Jason Goodwin and with me as always is my my friend, my brother in Christ, my fellow pastor Adam Thomas. How are you, brother?
Adam: I'm good, man. I'm good.
jason: All right, well, again, a man of many words, mister Thomas.
Adam: So this is interesting. I'm waiting on a queen bee to come in the mail and it it was shipped like three days ago. I'm afraid my queen bee is lost in the mail. It came from around Austin, Texas, and I I don't know where my queen bee is, man to bad bad days.
jason: Well today we have with us a another
Adam: Ha ha.
jason: pastor and friend that we're glad to have and and we're I I I got nothing, man. I got nothing. I don't I yeah,
Adam: Y you you don't even know you don't even know where to go with that, do you? I thought that was an interesting beekeep things beekeepers deal with.
Bart Herrington: Thanks.
jason: I'm telling ya.
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
jason: I mean I've got kids, you've got bees. I mean it's just it's i it's what we do apparently. but we'll be we'll be in prayer that the Queen Bee gets here before I don't know. I don't even know. Okay. All right. we're we're glad to have with us t today brother Bart Harrington. Brother Bart, it's good to see you.
Bart Herrington: Good to be here, thanks for having me.
jason: No, we're we're excited. I I'm looking forward to this conversation. Now, this conversation we're about to have, Adam will have a lot more to say because it it does involve his one of his favorite topics, which is which is biblical counseling and and we're gonna look forward to this conversation and and hopefully learn some things. but before we get into that, brother, we'd love to hear about you. tell us where you're serving, what you've got going on, and and and
Adam: Hey hey Jason, let's plug the conference.
jason: yeah, okay. Yeah, Cliff will get mad, so we better do that first. here here's what we need to say. The preaching lab conference is going to be at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church in Hope, Arkansas, on October 24th. The topic of the conference is Find the Center. It's a conference on preaching. It's a it's a it's a preaching conference. brother Mark Livingston, Dr. Mark Livingston, who we interviewed a little bit ago, he's gonna be kind of our main. speaker for the conference. we'll have some other lectures and other other things d that we do. but we would love for you to come and join us. At 10 to 4. It's 10 a.m. to four. It's one day conference there at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church in Hope, Arkansas. We would love to see you. We'd love to be able to worship with you and fellowship with you. And so if you have the availability October 24th, 2026 at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church, Find the Center, a conference on preaching hosted by the Preaching Lab. Dr. Mark Livingston, we would love for you to join us. So put it on your calendars, sign up. If you go to the preaching lab page on Facebook. you can sign up for it. And and Cliff would really appreciate if you'd register in advance so he knows if he's going or not. Because if I mean even though his church is hosting it, if if enough of you don't sign up, Cliff's not going to come. And we want Cliff there. We really would appreciate it. So so sign up, register.
Adam: And Jason and I will Jason and I will both be there to sign autographs for the podcast.
Bart Herrington: Hehehehehe
jason: I l I I love your I think this is the
Adam: Mm-hmm.
jason: new this is this is some sort of new confidence that you have with your with your lame kiffin we're just gonna sue the world and do all this other kind of stuff. So it's I that's that's what I'm feeling here. so anyway. All right.
Adam: Yeah, yeah.
jason: well but we're not gonna talk about that. We want to talk to Bart and I'm excited to have him here. so brother Bart, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your ministry, where you're serving and and and what you've got going on these days.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, so I'm at South Main Baptist Church in Malvern, Arkansas. I've been here for 10 years, actually. So I left the seminary in Jacksonville and moved to Malvern. And like I said, we've been here for 10 years. Let's see, what's going on? I'm working on a PhD in biblical counseling at MidAmerica. So about to wrap up, I hope. I got one year left. I'm working on my dissertation. And so... Just got approved for that. So I'm looking forward to writing, I guess. At least getting done. And so the lights at the end of the tunnel, I don't know if that's a good thing or not. It might be a train. So yeah.
jason: Might be a train. There that's it. That's it. Yeah. I think that was that was one of Arkansas's Lou Holtz when he was at Arkansas one time. They he said he saw the light at the end of the tunnel but he was worried it was a train. And I've I've always thought that was a great line. So yeah. Well what's
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
jason: your what's your dissertation? you said you just got it to prove. What's what's the topic or what's the title?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, you know dissertation titles, they're like this long, so I'll give you the huge long title of it. It is Duplexity Developed, Recovering and Extending Jay Adams' Body, Anthropology as a Sufficient Exegetical Foundation for a Newthetic Whole Person Counseling Methodology. So that's the big long title of that. Yeah, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah.
jason: No, that's it it sounds like it could be a Puritan book title. I mean that's been fantastic. Yeah.
Adam: Ba that's what I was just thinking. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: And so really, it's, so Dr. Adams laid a really compelling anthropological foundation for newthetic counseling by articulating the concept of duplexity. So the body and soul is two separate, folded inseparably together. And so his writings are pointing toward a robust whole person understanding of the counselee. And so. Really, I'm seeking to take up the trajectory that he began with that, developing on that foundation of a body-soul anthropology.
jason: So none of that Neoplatonist stuff where, you know, flesh is all bad and there's no redeeming aspect to it, that that that we can actually in Christ have a a whole sanctified person, huh?
Bart Herrington: Right, right. And so, know, what is Scripture teaching through anthropological vocabulary about the interrelationship between physical body and immaterial soul? I this is a huge thing in biblical counseling now, and so, and there's not a lot of work being done on that. So I'm looking forward to it.
jason: that's awesome. And that kinda that kinda gets us going for the conversation we're gonna have a little bit of today, right? I mean that that's that kinda
Bart Herrington: Little bit, little bit, yeah.
jason: deals with the article that that we you're gonna be that's gonna be published pretty soon, if not already, that you wrote for us at the preaching lab. And and so Adam, I know I know you have a a great interest in these things, so th why don't you won't you take off and and start throwing some questions at
Adam: Yeah. So yeah, so what you what you hit on what you hit on in the article is that the issue of habituation and Adam's view versus some some some critiques that came later and I don't know, I I would say the article's kinda like what Adam's got right, where are the weaknesses that could be that could happen in such a view. So just start off by telling us kind of define habituation for us.
Bart Herrington: Okay.
Adam: And kinda I guess define kinda Adam's original view.
Bart Herrington: Sure, So let me begin by saying the article that y'all got is actually a condensed version of what was a 30 page paper. So yeah,
Adam: Mm.
Bart Herrington: that I wrote for the Theology of Councilman Seminar class. And so, I mean, you're just getting a snippet of... Yeah.
jason: Adam would like the whole Adam would like the whole thing, if you could just send that to him.
Adam: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: So whatever y'all post online there is really just kind of a piece of that. more of a summary of all of that, but habituation as you're related to the way Adam saw that was just the process of forming a habit through repeated practice. so, you know, habits, know, something that you do so often that becomes automatic, if you will. And so, you know, I was seeking to understand, okay, what is habituation? Adam calls it Rehabituation as well, so how do I rehab it certain things, so to speak? What is the proper place for those things in biblical counseling and what effects does that have on sanctification, if any? again, habituation, a big, it's a term Adam's made up, if you will, the process of forming a habit through repeated practice.
jason: Tell this y Bart I you know, I I think if you've been around biblical counseling, euthetic counseling circles, Jay Addams is a name that you just you just hear a lot of. I mean he's he's oftentimes considered the the father of of biblical counseling. who was Jay Addams though? Why why should we even be listening to this guy in the first place?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, you know, well, A, we could call him the father, I wouldn't say of biblical counseling, but of the movement, if you will. And so in the 70s, he, of course, the book, Competent Counsel, he was actually commissioned beforehand to teach at Westminster, you know, and teach a counseling class. And he's like, hey, there's nothing really. for a pastor to do because all these secular ideas had crept into the church. And so there was the idea of secular psychology and creeping into the church, but also pastors referring, know, soul care out to these secular ideas. And so he just went back to scripture and said, hey, you know, these secular ideas are unnecessary because scripture has something to say about a person's soul and how they are to change and sanctification. And so he just went back to the sufficiency of Scripture and gave a counseling model based on the sufficiency of Scripture.
jason: And competent to counsel, that's that's his I mean, most well known book, do you think? Or or would you you know, what what do you think is if somebody was wanting to find out about Jay or or read something about him, w what would you say this is it?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, I mean, if you're looking to know about biblical counseling, I'll steal it. This is Russell Threatt, so I'm going to steal it from him, but he uses the Narnia. illustration in this, you know, to get to Narnia you got to go through the wardrobe. And so if you want to get to Biblical Council, then you got to go through competent counsel. And so if you're looking to know, what is competent counsel? How did Biblical counseling come about as it relates to Jay Adams formulating that and what it looks like in light of the psychological theories, you know, Freudianism, Rogers, behavioral therapy, all of these things. So he's writing against all of those things in light of a biblical model of counseling. If you want to know what that looks like and how that came about, Competent to Counsel is the book that you need to read.
Adam: So you know, as someone who is in the world of of biblical counseling, I would say habituation is not commonly used in the movement anymore. And you kinda point to the reasons why, just some critiques that came up. So so what were the critiques? I think of I think you said Ed Welch and then the
jason: George Wallum.
Adam: other guy, you may have to remind me, but yeah,
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: like what What were their what were their critiques of Adam's view on habituation?
Bart Herrington: So Welch's main critique was basically his definition of the flesh. Neurophysiological, in other words, embedded sin. So you're acting or relating to how the nervous system or the brain functions, right? And so if flesh, Welch said, if it's a programmed body, then counseling risks becoming mechanical. So it's kind like a doctor troubleshooting a broken part and just swapping a bad habit for a good one without addressing what's going on in a person's heart.
jason: Mm.
Bart Herrington: So his theological claim, scripture consistently is locating sin's ultimate source in the heart and the mindset in our spiritual condition. And that's expressed through the body. It's never a body sinning on its own, independent of the heart's inclination. you know, the practical worry in that would be, know, well, councilees then, or those that were counseling might not feel understood if it's only targeting a behavior. And so counseling might miss that good behavior with bad motives since the model doesn't naturally probe the motive. So that was Welch's, go ahead.
Adam: Yeah, so you in the article you kinda flesh out like your like I hear the here are the credible criticism and and maybe yeah there is some weaknesses there. There's some good stuff. So just in summary, what where do you think they were right in their criticism and and where do you think they maybe went overboard on their criticism?
Bart Herrington: Okay, yeah, so I think there's merit to Welch's ideas. I think he misses part of Adams' basic idea. Adams does talk about the heart a lot in his writings, and so for him to neglect that,
Adam: Sure. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: I think he's missing the boat on that. And as it relates to Schwab, I think the same thing. Neither one of them are saying that there's nothing to habituation. They're just saying, it's the way that he came about that is not right. Greg Gifford wrote a book, Heart and Habits, and he asked a different question. Is the definition of flesh exegetically precise? again, you can argue that it wasn't. But then again, he asked the question, was Adam's emphasis on habituation itself biblically sound? And so, you know, I think it is biblically sound. you know, that repeated practice shapes people and scripture cares about that. And it's sound and it has historical roots. know, I can't remember if it's in the paper I edited for y'all, but you know, the Puritans were huge and it is. so historically it's... correct as well.
jason: Well I know I mean Ed Welch Ed Welch is a is a is a big fan
Adam: So y'all go ahead.
jason: of of of biblical counseling. I mean he's a he's a leader, you know, in the modern day. So he's not he's not coming at Adam's and this is his when people are big and got a small book, which is great by the way. so
Bart Herrington: Yeah. Yeah.
jason: he's not he's not being critical of Adams just for the sake of being critical. He really I mean he's he's he's he's worried about behavioral modification, which we all are, right? I mean, even any time we wanna with our own hearts, with the with the hearts of others that we're shepherding, we're we're not we don't want them to just think, okay, I if I just stop this, everything's Everything's okay. So so do you think his criticisms were fair, him he and Schwab and and others? Do you think that their criticisms were fair or do you think they weren't they weren't being as kind to Adams or as gracious to Adams as as what they could have been?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, no, I think they're fair. I think a lot of times when people read Adams, and again, I don't know, well, so I don't know how, I don't want to speak for him, but I know that, like I said earlier, Adams has written a lot of stuff about the heart. And so for him to say, okay, I'm ignoring the heart in this, I think it's a misapplication of what he's trying to say in that. so, and I think that happens a lot in... Newthetic counseling or biblical counseling, especially as it relates to Adams. They will pick a certain thing, you know, and pastors do this too, do they not? You know, they'll cherry pick something and then get on that and not see the overall context of his, I mean, Adams wrote over a hundred books. And so, you know, if you're not familiar with all of that, then as it relates to that, I don't know that it is fair then to, you know, critique something if you're not presenting the full picture of what that looks like.
Adam: So you you brought up some you you bring up some biblical basis for for Adam's view in your paper. I I know First Corinthians nine, I I know you go there. So like still man the argument with with scripture of of of why you think a lot of what Adams was saying about habituation was right and good and helpful.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, again, so Hebrews 5, right, the language there, know, spiritual growth is often slow and incremental, right, not instant. And so Hebrews 5 talks about a constant practice. And then as it relates to counseling, know, that would lower the shame because you have, you know, early slow, you know, around slow change and raise realistic expectations. And so, you know, you got a person that's addicted to pornography and They're just not going to automatically stop that. There's a process in that. so that constant practice of putting off something, right? And that's the dehabituation side of that. But Adam's put rehabituation together with that. And so it's also putting something on. So that's the whole Ephesians 4 passage where Paul talks about, put off this, but you have to put on something else. so, you know, there's that, whole first Corinthians nine, I think you mentioned that Adam, know, Paul doesn't discipline his body aimlessly, you know, he says, not as one beating the air. And so again, habits have to have a goal attached to those. And in counseling, the goal is always to glorify God and loving others, or it becomes legalism, right? I mean, you could argue that the Pharisees were by far the most, you know, habitual people ever. But their hearts were not changed. so, you know, again, those two things going together, which I think, you know, and that's conclusion I came to, you know, one goes with the other, right? You want to address behavior, but you also at the same time want to address the heart behind the behavior, because it's the heart that's driving the behavior in that.
jason: My my question is this, because I think
Adam: So like
jason: I mean I we all know that I mean that that habit forming is is an important part of just life in general. I mean one of the best selling books in recent history was the book Atomic Habits, which was, you know, teaching people how to how to form good habits and all these types of things. So is it is it is it because as Christians we get so worried about the the heart dynamic, as well as we should, but but I mean we all know that there are things, there are habits in our life that we have that that we're gonna do no matter what, right? I mean we're gonna go to church Every Lord's Day, no matter if we want to do it or not, because we know that that is the right and good thing to do. So it w where does this where does this I guess this this concern about habit where where do you think where do you think it kinda comes from or wh or where do you think it kinda falls off when it comes to, you know, habit learning, habit habit formulation, all these things?
Bart Herrington: I know where it comes from. I think we are naturally habit forming people. And so, you know, it's, you know, like driving a car. You know, when you first start driving a car, everything is, you know, very deliberate. So my son turned 16 and so, you know, he's learning to drive. And so, you know, it's It's very deliberate about, know, okay, I need to look before I turn, you know, I got to look in the mirror or you know, put my hands where they need to be and you know, turn on the blinker and you know, as I'm driving, I'm looking at my mirrors, I'm very deliberate and you can see the deliberation in all of the deliberateness in all of that. But, you know, eventually it's like second nature, you know. And so, you know, it's something that I think is in us, where we do, and I think what Adams was saying was, you know, we naturally, as sinful fallen people, you know, we do things and that those things naturally happen in the same type of way. We naturally do those things. And so, you know, an example of that, a silly example would be Even the car right before I got my push start vehicle, you know, I would get in that every morning and put the key in Even though I knew you know that this is a push start vehicle I would try to put the key into the column, you
jason: Mm.
Bart Herrington: know, because again that was I was doing that every day
jason: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: for years, you know And so and so not even thinking about that That's what I did And so we do that in our daily activities, whether it be sin or glorifying God. And so when I'm seeking them to change those habits, right, it's not just stop doing that. It's, okay, I've got to put on something else, but that's going to also take time. It's slowness, the normalization of doing things. You you just didn't decide overnight that you were going to go to church. That was something that you decided every day
jason: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: over a certain amount of time. And then it became just, okay, there's no question about that. We're gonna go to church. And in the same way, when we are habituated in that type of way to where we're glorifying God and we're making those decisions each and every day, then when those crisis come, when decisions come, we don't have to think about, well, do I need to go to church or what do I need to do, right? You know, the things of the Word of God are going to come to mind automatically like they do me sticking a key into the steering column.
Adam: I think Jason to your to your point about like why are we so scared of of habits? I think I would I would I would say I mean I've seen it in ministry being in the youth ministry for eleven or twelve years, the desire of of most of the of a lot of the parents was I just want my kids to behave, keep off drugs, keep from getting pregnant and and and just, you know, keep behaving. But there wasn't, you know, most of them was a I want my kid deeply in love with Jesus. I want a heart that is just and and so I mean we've we live in a you know, we grew up almost in a it's all about what you do, not what you not what's going on in here in your desire for Christ. And so I would say, you know, that's that's where I think people are like, let's be careful and and not just make it all about behavior. But on the other side, like let's say I'm dealing with a guy who's addicted to pornography, I've better look at the habits, right? I I can't like I can there there's kind of a threefold. I usually you know, I'm usually engaging their view of God and I'm usually engaging their marriage and especially if they're married men, is like, you know, why you know, you have an outlet here of of of holy sexual gratification. Why why is Why are you not taking advantage of that and then pouring your heart in that? But the other thing is get some get some stuff, what's the word I'm looking for? A program on your computer
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: that that keeps you from going to these sites. And also let's talk about when are you doing this? Well,
Bart Herrington: you
Adam: it's after my wife goes to bed. Then you go to bed with your wife. Okay,
jason: Ha ha
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: you don't stay up and watch TV or or whatever, go to your office. You You have to change what you're doing. And then we really it to me sometimes that's the more immediate is we have to start setting some new habits as we build your relationship with God, as we build your relationship with your spouse. And so, you know, it it's it's gotta be t for me and and I and I go back to the verses you mentioned, Bart
Bart Herrington: See you.
Adam: of of the the putting all on putting off and putting on. I mean, to
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: me that's just just clear scripture that
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: The the Bible is after what we're doing. And so and part yes, part of that, if you don't address the heart, none of those changes are gonna last. That
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: person eventually is gonna lose that job and go back to stealing and and that that we see about in in Ephesians, that person's gonna go back to to telling to telling lies if their heart's not changed, but you gotta address that behavior. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: Yeah. And again, I agree, Adam, you know, and going back to, you know, why Adams was doing this, you know, it was back in a time when behavior was the focus, right? You know, that's what was being pushed is like, hey, I just want my kid to stop doing this. You know, I don't care what the motivation is or whatever. I just want them to stop. And so, you know, that's when he started addressing this, you know, in that type of context. But as, you know, Adam said, you can't just have a behavioristic approach to that. to where, you know, like the pornography, you know, and again, that's some of the first things I've dealt with that a lot, you know, counseling people with pornography. That's one first things I do is, you know, I'll either have them put an app on their phone or have them go get, you know, an old flip phone, you know, that way they're not having a smartphone, you know, and so these are behavioral, you know, changes, you know, you have a check-in schedule or whatever it might be, you know, and that's treating the Program body as all person right I pick up my phone that might be a trigger that I want to look at something and so if you take that away from them then That's gonna help. I'm swapping their habit But again, if I don't if I don't address their heart motive in that, you know Why why are you why are you doing this? Are you lonely? What's your view of God? You know, what did you do differently this week than you did last week? then you're just leaving them stuck and they're going to do the same thing over and over.
jason: This raises a good question too, 'cause so So then when you're counseling someone dealing with these things where you're you're looking at at changing habits, you're looking at reformulating, is is this why is because I've heard Adam talk about this before, but is this why assigning them homework is so important? And and and talk about, you know, again, even in the assigning of the homework, like how do you keep them from you know, keeping those things accountable. I mean first and foremost, keeping them accountable to are you doing what you're supposed to be doing, but then making sure that they understand the motivation of these things and not just the the doing them in and of themselves or or are you just trying to say, No, j I just need you to change your behavior right now and while we work on this other stuff when we meet.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, yeah, no. So I tell them, usually in the first session, especially when I start assigning homework, I tell them, when you come see me once a week, this is not the magic hour that everything's gonna happen, right? The hard work is on you. And that means that Tuesday through Sunday, when you're not in my office, that means that you're gonna have to be proactively doing things on your own. And if you need me, call me, but this is not the magic hour where... you're gonna come in here and get this great revelation about, hey, I'm fixed. That's part of a sanctification, right? You're working on that throughout the week. And so the homework is purposely then, and for me, it is, a lot of that at first is behavioral because you want to help them actively. help them in the immediacy. But then tell them, there's hope. There's hope in the gospel. If you're a believer, then God has changed your heart and you can renew your mind, which is also part of the putting off, putting on process. There's also renewal of your mind aspect involved in that as well. And so it's not just put off. But it's also I'm renewing my mind in that process of putting on to where I'm seeing the motivation of doing this. It's not simply behavioral because I need to stop or I need to save my marriage or you know, whatever. I'm going to lose my job, right? Those are important. But honestly, those are secondary things as it relates to how we're glorifying God, which is the most important thing. And when that falls in line and when that's the motivation, then everything else will fall in line after that. And so as it relates to homework, you know, I'll give them stuff to do, you know, throughout the week, you know, write me, know, give me a list of, know, whenever you felt tempted to jump on the internet or whatever it be, you know, write the circumstances down. So I'm getting a weekly journal of what they're doing or not doing, you know, what were you thinking in that moment? And so, and then we'll talk through that and again, seek to change those things behaviorally. but also understanding his heart diagnosis behind that. What was that doing for you? Are you numbing loneliness? Are you escaping shame? Are you self-soothing after you have conflict with your wife? And so you're seeking the heart motivation behind that, which is really a worship disorder.
jason: Sure. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: helping them see. It runs deeper than your behavior. It's coming from your heart as well.
Adam: Well this has been a great discussion. it's a great article. I just I love I love that dynamic of of man i yeah, it's habits but it's also heart and you have to address both of and so I would encourage everyone to kind of read that article, think about that article. Hey, get the bigger article. There's another there's a thirty page version out there and
Bart Herrington: Ha ha ha.
Adam: I'm sure If you contact Bart between him writing his dissertation, he'll find time to email ya and and and get that to you. Jason?
jason: Hey, I have one I have one more question, if if if if you don't mind, Bart, because I think this is important too. I mean, where we are the preaching lab. D do you do you find this being helpful in your preaching of of kind of, you know, making more application I think 'cause that's to me that's one of the biggest parts of preaching that sometimes we we kind of overlook or we miss miss out on. It's kind of connecting these things even in your preaching is, you know, we've talked a lot about the counseling room, but you know, this is where where does this where does this kind of impact your preaching and how you present these things to your people as you're pastoring them collectively on the Lord's Day?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, great question. So I think for me, my pastoring of my sermon is somewhat of an overflow of counseling, you know. And so, you know, I'm going through Ephesians. And so we just I just finished Ephesians four and I'm working
jason: yeah. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: in Ephesians five. And so, you know, which is great then to, you know, use examples of, this is what this looks like in real life, not just in the counseling, but in a believer's life as well. Because really that's the goal of counseling, to glorify God, but also have your counselor counsel himself with the scripture. And so if you're able to tie those things together in the pulpit and say, hey, here's what that looks like, then that's just application, is it not? of your sermon. So, yeah.
Adam: Yeah, and I think it I think that the whole putting off and putting on dynamic of scripture is so helpful, not just in in Ephesians, but applying it like when you're you gotta think through when you're telling your people to stop doing something. You really need to think through, okay, what is the opposite of that? 'Cause I I you I've been preaching through Luke, you got the the demon that's cast out Right, and nothing replaces it. The house gets clean. What does he do? He goes and gets friends and comes back and it's worse the person's worse than they were. You really do need to think about when you're telling your people not to do something, to stop doing something, what is that 'cause there's almost always I would say I would say there is always a
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: a wholly opposite behavior that can be that can be promoted to say instead do this and so
Bart Herrington: Thank
Adam: You know, be care be the preacher that doesn't just tell your people to stop doing bad stuff, but but help see that this is the good stuff you should be doing. So yeah, it it's a big has a big impact on preaching for sure.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, and you don't have to make it up. That's the great thing about it, right? It's in Scripture, right? And so you don't have to go looking for
Adam: Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: answers, you know, put off bitterness and anger and wrath, you know, and Paul tells you what to put on after that, know, loving kindness
Adam: Yeah, yeah.
Bart Herrington: and goodness and all these things. And so, you know, it's not like you have to make it up or go somewhere else to find it. He's giving you the answer right there. We just have to do the hard work of Sometimes we have to look for it and search that out, but it's there.
jason: I think that's I think that's incredibly helpful and I hope I hope for our our listeners that they they see that y that these things how important these things are, whether they're in counseling or in their sermons, that that to to not, you know, it it's one thing to just be told don't do that, but it it's
Bart Herrington: you
jason: to me it's it's way more encouraging to then be told, but here, do this and here's what the scripture says we are to do. Like you don't have to I'm like you just said, like we don't have to make it up. We it's it's given to us right there in the scriptures. You know, put on these things rather than these things. And that that's that's incredibly incredibly helpful. Adam, any last words before we let we let the almost good doctor Harrington
Bart Herrington: Thank you.
jason: move on with w w whatever he has this afternoon?
Adam: I just encourage you to go to the Preacher Lab Facebook and go to the link and sign up for the preaching lab conference next month.
jason: Yeah, that's a great great thing. Brother Bart, you gonna be able to join us? Put you on the spot. How about that? There you go.
Bart Herrington: I think so, yep.
jason: If if there's no football officiating or anything like that that that may come in the way of it.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, I think we're through, or don't have it that day, so anyway.
jason: Good, good, good, good. Awesome. Well, brother, hey, we appreciate you making time for us. we appreciate your your your willingness to help pastors and to and to also let us glean from from your time in in studies and writings and all those types of things. We're we're very appreciative of it. So thank you, brother, for for helping us to think through these things.
Bart Herrington: Thank you for having me. So I've enjoyed it.
jason: Well, hey guys, if there's any other way we can help you in your ministry, whether it's through preaching, your pastoring, just your your personal life, let us know. We're we're here for you because we believe in pastors. We want to see healthy pastors, we wanna see healthy pulpits. And we do want you to join us for our conference, October twenty-fourth there at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church, one day conference, start at ten, we'll be over at four. You can get back to wherever you're coming from in plenty of time to be able to to fill the pulpit the next day. So we would love to see you. this is Jason Goodwin with my friend Adam. we are hopefully we'll see you again next time on the Preaching Lab podcast.
jason: podcast. I'm Jason Goodwin and with me as always is my my friend, my brother in Christ, my fellow pastor Adam Thomas. How are you, brother?
Adam: I'm good, man. I'm good.
jason: All right, well, again, a man of many words, mister Thomas.
Adam: So this is interesting. I'm waiting on a queen bee to come in the mail and it it was shipped like three days ago. I'm afraid my queen bee is lost in the mail. It came from around Austin, Texas, and I I don't know where my queen bee is, man to bad bad days.
jason: Well today we have with us a another
Adam: Ha ha.
jason: pastor and friend that we're glad to have and and we're I I I got nothing, man. I got nothing. I don't I yeah,
Adam: Y you you don't even know you don't even know where to go with that, do you? I thought that was an interesting beekeep things beekeepers deal with.
Bart Herrington: Thanks.
jason: I'm telling ya.
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
jason: I mean I've got kids, you've got bees. I mean it's just it's i it's what we do apparently. but we'll be we'll be in prayer that the Queen Bee gets here before I don't know. I don't even know. Okay. All right. we're we're glad to have with us t today brother Bart Harrington. Brother Bart, it's good to see you.
Bart Herrington: Good to be here, thanks for having me.
jason: No, we're we're excited. I I'm looking forward to this conversation. Now, this conversation we're about to have, Adam will have a lot more to say because it it does involve his one of his favorite topics, which is which is biblical counseling and and we're gonna look forward to this conversation and and hopefully learn some things. but before we get into that, brother, we'd love to hear about you. tell us where you're serving, what you've got going on, and and and
Adam: Hey hey Jason, let's plug the conference.
jason: yeah, okay. Yeah, Cliff will get mad, so we better do that first. here here's what we need to say. The preaching lab conference is going to be at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church in Hope, Arkansas, on October 24th. The topic of the conference is Find the Center. It's a conference on preaching. It's a it's a it's a preaching conference. brother Mark Livingston, Dr. Mark Livingston, who we interviewed a little bit ago, he's gonna be kind of our main. speaker for the conference. we'll have some other lectures and other other things d that we do. but we would love for you to come and join us. At 10 to 4. It's 10 a.m. to four. It's one day conference there at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church in Hope, Arkansas. We would love to see you. We'd love to be able to worship with you and fellowship with you. And so if you have the availability October 24th, 2026 at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church, Find the Center, a conference on preaching hosted by the Preaching Lab. Dr. Mark Livingston, we would love for you to join us. So put it on your calendars, sign up. If you go to the preaching lab page on Facebook. you can sign up for it. And and Cliff would really appreciate if you'd register in advance so he knows if he's going or not. Because if I mean even though his church is hosting it, if if enough of you don't sign up, Cliff's not going to come. And we want Cliff there. We really would appreciate it. So so sign up, register.
Adam: And Jason and I will Jason and I will both be there to sign autographs for the podcast.
Bart Herrington: Hehehehehe
jason: I l I I love your I think this is the
Adam: Mm-hmm.
jason: new this is this is some sort of new confidence that you have with your with your lame kiffin we're just gonna sue the world and do all this other kind of stuff. So it's I that's that's what I'm feeling here. so anyway. All right.
Adam: Yeah, yeah.
jason: well but we're not gonna talk about that. We want to talk to Bart and I'm excited to have him here. so brother Bart, tell us about yourself. Tell us about your ministry, where you're serving and and and what you've got going on these days.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, so I'm at South Main Baptist Church in Malvern, Arkansas. I've been here for 10 years, actually. So I left the seminary in Jacksonville and moved to Malvern. And like I said, we've been here for 10 years. Let's see, what's going on? I'm working on a PhD in biblical counseling at MidAmerica. So about to wrap up, I hope. I got one year left. I'm working on my dissertation. And so... Just got approved for that. So I'm looking forward to writing, I guess. At least getting done. And so the lights at the end of the tunnel, I don't know if that's a good thing or not. It might be a train. So yeah.
jason: Might be a train. There that's it. That's it. Yeah. I think that was that was one of Arkansas's Lou Holtz when he was at Arkansas one time. They he said he saw the light at the end of the tunnel but he was worried it was a train. And I've I've always thought that was a great line. So yeah. Well what's
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
jason: your what's your dissertation? you said you just got it to prove. What's what's the topic or what's the title?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, you know dissertation titles, they're like this long, so I'll give you the huge long title of it. It is Duplexity Developed, Recovering and Extending Jay Adams' Body, Anthropology as a Sufficient Exegetical Foundation for a Newthetic Whole Person Counseling Methodology. So that's the big long title of that. Yeah, you know, right? Yeah. Yeah.
jason: No, that's it it sounds like it could be a Puritan book title. I mean that's been fantastic. Yeah.
Adam: Ba that's what I was just thinking. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: And so really, it's, so Dr. Adams laid a really compelling anthropological foundation for newthetic counseling by articulating the concept of duplexity. So the body and soul is two separate, folded inseparably together. And so his writings are pointing toward a robust whole person understanding of the counselee. And so. Really, I'm seeking to take up the trajectory that he began with that, developing on that foundation of a body-soul anthropology.
jason: So none of that Neoplatonist stuff where, you know, flesh is all bad and there's no redeeming aspect to it, that that that we can actually in Christ have a a whole sanctified person, huh?
Bart Herrington: Right, right. And so, know, what is Scripture teaching through anthropological vocabulary about the interrelationship between physical body and immaterial soul? I this is a huge thing in biblical counseling now, and so, and there's not a lot of work being done on that. So I'm looking forward to it.
jason: that's awesome. And that kinda that kinda gets us going for the conversation we're gonna have a little bit of today, right? I mean that that's that kinda
Bart Herrington: Little bit, little bit, yeah.
jason: deals with the article that that we you're gonna be that's gonna be published pretty soon, if not already, that you wrote for us at the preaching lab. And and so Adam, I know I know you have a a great interest in these things, so th why don't you won't you take off and and start throwing some questions at
Adam: Yeah. So yeah, so what you what you hit on what you hit on in the article is that the issue of habituation and Adam's view versus some some some critiques that came later and I don't know, I I would say the article's kinda like what Adam's got right, where are the weaknesses that could be that could happen in such a view. So just start off by telling us kind of define habituation for us.
Bart Herrington: Okay.
Adam: And kinda I guess define kinda Adam's original view.
Bart Herrington: Sure, So let me begin by saying the article that y'all got is actually a condensed version of what was a 30 page paper. So yeah,
Adam: Mm.
Bart Herrington: that I wrote for the Theology of Councilman Seminar class. And so, I mean, you're just getting a snippet of... Yeah.
jason: Adam would like the whole Adam would like the whole thing, if you could just send that to him.
Adam: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: So whatever y'all post online there is really just kind of a piece of that. more of a summary of all of that, but habituation as you're related to the way Adam saw that was just the process of forming a habit through repeated practice. so, you know, habits, know, something that you do so often that becomes automatic, if you will. And so, you know, I was seeking to understand, okay, what is habituation? Adam calls it Rehabituation as well, so how do I rehab it certain things, so to speak? What is the proper place for those things in biblical counseling and what effects does that have on sanctification, if any? again, habituation, a big, it's a term Adam's made up, if you will, the process of forming a habit through repeated practice.
jason: Tell this y Bart I you know, I I think if you've been around biblical counseling, euthetic counseling circles, Jay Addams is a name that you just you just hear a lot of. I mean he's he's oftentimes considered the the father of of biblical counseling. who was Jay Addams though? Why why should we even be listening to this guy in the first place?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, you know, well, A, we could call him the father, I wouldn't say of biblical counseling, but of the movement, if you will. And so in the 70s, he, of course, the book, Competent Counsel, he was actually commissioned beforehand to teach at Westminster, you know, and teach a counseling class. And he's like, hey, there's nothing really. for a pastor to do because all these secular ideas had crept into the church. And so there was the idea of secular psychology and creeping into the church, but also pastors referring, know, soul care out to these secular ideas. And so he just went back to scripture and said, hey, you know, these secular ideas are unnecessary because scripture has something to say about a person's soul and how they are to change and sanctification. And so he just went back to the sufficiency of Scripture and gave a counseling model based on the sufficiency of Scripture.
jason: And competent to counsel, that's that's his I mean, most well known book, do you think? Or or would you you know, what what do you think is if somebody was wanting to find out about Jay or or read something about him, w what would you say this is it?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, I mean, if you're looking to know about biblical counseling, I'll steal it. This is Russell Threatt, so I'm going to steal it from him, but he uses the Narnia. illustration in this, you know, to get to Narnia you got to go through the wardrobe. And so if you want to get to Biblical Council, then you got to go through competent counsel. And so if you're looking to know, what is competent counsel? How did Biblical counseling come about as it relates to Jay Adams formulating that and what it looks like in light of the psychological theories, you know, Freudianism, Rogers, behavioral therapy, all of these things. So he's writing against all of those things in light of a biblical model of counseling. If you want to know what that looks like and how that came about, Competent to Counsel is the book that you need to read.
Adam: So you know, as someone who is in the world of of biblical counseling, I would say habituation is not commonly used in the movement anymore. And you kinda point to the reasons why, just some critiques that came up. So so what were the critiques? I think of I think you said Ed Welch and then the
jason: George Wallum.
Adam: other guy, you may have to remind me, but yeah,
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: like what What were their what were their critiques of Adam's view on habituation?
Bart Herrington: So Welch's main critique was basically his definition of the flesh. Neurophysiological, in other words, embedded sin. So you're acting or relating to how the nervous system or the brain functions, right? And so if flesh, Welch said, if it's a programmed body, then counseling risks becoming mechanical. So it's kind like a doctor troubleshooting a broken part and just swapping a bad habit for a good one without addressing what's going on in a person's heart.
jason: Mm.
Bart Herrington: So his theological claim, scripture consistently is locating sin's ultimate source in the heart and the mindset in our spiritual condition. And that's expressed through the body. It's never a body sinning on its own, independent of the heart's inclination. you know, the practical worry in that would be, know, well, councilees then, or those that were counseling might not feel understood if it's only targeting a behavior. And so counseling might miss that good behavior with bad motives since the model doesn't naturally probe the motive. So that was Welch's, go ahead.
Adam: Yeah, so you in the article you kinda flesh out like your like I hear the here are the credible criticism and and maybe yeah there is some weaknesses there. There's some good stuff. So just in summary, what where do you think they were right in their criticism and and where do you think they maybe went overboard on their criticism?
Bart Herrington: Okay, yeah, so I think there's merit to Welch's ideas. I think he misses part of Adams' basic idea. Adams does talk about the heart a lot in his writings, and so for him to neglect that,
Adam: Sure. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: I think he's missing the boat on that. And as it relates to Schwab, I think the same thing. Neither one of them are saying that there's nothing to habituation. They're just saying, it's the way that he came about that is not right. Greg Gifford wrote a book, Heart and Habits, and he asked a different question. Is the definition of flesh exegetically precise? again, you can argue that it wasn't. But then again, he asked the question, was Adam's emphasis on habituation itself biblically sound? And so, you know, I think it is biblically sound. you know, that repeated practice shapes people and scripture cares about that. And it's sound and it has historical roots. know, I can't remember if it's in the paper I edited for y'all, but you know, the Puritans were huge and it is. so historically it's... correct as well.
jason: Well I know I mean Ed Welch Ed Welch is a is a is a big fan
Adam: So y'all go ahead.
jason: of of of biblical counseling. I mean he's a he's a leader, you know, in the modern day. So he's not he's not coming at Adam's and this is his when people are big and got a small book, which is great by the way. so
Bart Herrington: Yeah. Yeah.
jason: he's not he's not being critical of Adams just for the sake of being critical. He really I mean he's he's he's he's worried about behavioral modification, which we all are, right? I mean, even any time we wanna with our own hearts, with the with the hearts of others that we're shepherding, we're we're not we don't want them to just think, okay, I if I just stop this, everything's Everything's okay. So so do you think his criticisms were fair, him he and Schwab and and others? Do you think that their criticisms were fair or do you think they weren't they weren't being as kind to Adams or as gracious to Adams as as what they could have been?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, no, I think they're fair. I think a lot of times when people read Adams, and again, I don't know, well, so I don't know how, I don't want to speak for him, but I know that, like I said earlier, Adams has written a lot of stuff about the heart. And so for him to say, okay, I'm ignoring the heart in this, I think it's a misapplication of what he's trying to say in that. so, and I think that happens a lot in... Newthetic counseling or biblical counseling, especially as it relates to Adams. They will pick a certain thing, you know, and pastors do this too, do they not? You know, they'll cherry pick something and then get on that and not see the overall context of his, I mean, Adams wrote over a hundred books. And so, you know, if you're not familiar with all of that, then as it relates to that, I don't know that it is fair then to, you know, critique something if you're not presenting the full picture of what that looks like.
Adam: So you you brought up some you you bring up some biblical basis for for Adam's view in your paper. I I know First Corinthians nine, I I know you go there. So like still man the argument with with scripture of of of why you think a lot of what Adams was saying about habituation was right and good and helpful.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, again, so Hebrews 5, right, the language there, know, spiritual growth is often slow and incremental, right, not instant. And so Hebrews 5 talks about a constant practice. And then as it relates to counseling, know, that would lower the shame because you have, you know, early slow, you know, around slow change and raise realistic expectations. And so, you know, you got a person that's addicted to pornography and They're just not going to automatically stop that. There's a process in that. so that constant practice of putting off something, right? And that's the dehabituation side of that. But Adam's put rehabituation together with that. And so it's also putting something on. So that's the whole Ephesians 4 passage where Paul talks about, put off this, but you have to put on something else. so, you know, there's that, whole first Corinthians nine, I think you mentioned that Adam, know, Paul doesn't discipline his body aimlessly, you know, he says, not as one beating the air. And so again, habits have to have a goal attached to those. And in counseling, the goal is always to glorify God and loving others, or it becomes legalism, right? I mean, you could argue that the Pharisees were by far the most, you know, habitual people ever. But their hearts were not changed. so, you know, again, those two things going together, which I think, you know, and that's conclusion I came to, you know, one goes with the other, right? You want to address behavior, but you also at the same time want to address the heart behind the behavior, because it's the heart that's driving the behavior in that.
jason: My my question is this, because I think
Adam: So like
jason: I mean I we all know that I mean that that habit forming is is an important part of just life in general. I mean one of the best selling books in recent history was the book Atomic Habits, which was, you know, teaching people how to how to form good habits and all these types of things. So is it is it is it because as Christians we get so worried about the the heart dynamic, as well as we should, but but I mean we all know that there are things, there are habits in our life that we have that that we're gonna do no matter what, right? I mean we're gonna go to church Every Lord's Day, no matter if we want to do it or not, because we know that that is the right and good thing to do. So it w where does this where does this I guess this this concern about habit where where do you think where do you think it kinda comes from or wh or where do you think it kinda falls off when it comes to, you know, habit learning, habit habit formulation, all these things?
Bart Herrington: I know where it comes from. I think we are naturally habit forming people. And so, you know, it's, you know, like driving a car. You know, when you first start driving a car, everything is, you know, very deliberate. So my son turned 16 and so, you know, he's learning to drive. And so, you know, it's It's very deliberate about, know, okay, I need to look before I turn, you know, I got to look in the mirror or you know, put my hands where they need to be and you know, turn on the blinker and you know, as I'm driving, I'm looking at my mirrors, I'm very deliberate and you can see the deliberation in all of the deliberateness in all of that. But, you know, eventually it's like second nature, you know. And so, you know, it's something that I think is in us, where we do, and I think what Adams was saying was, you know, we naturally, as sinful fallen people, you know, we do things and that those things naturally happen in the same type of way. We naturally do those things. And so, you know, an example of that, a silly example would be Even the car right before I got my push start vehicle, you know, I would get in that every morning and put the key in Even though I knew you know that this is a push start vehicle I would try to put the key into the column, you
jason: Mm.
Bart Herrington: know, because again that was I was doing that every day
jason: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: for years, you know And so and so not even thinking about that That's what I did And so we do that in our daily activities, whether it be sin or glorifying God. And so when I'm seeking them to change those habits, right, it's not just stop doing that. It's, okay, I've got to put on something else, but that's going to also take time. It's slowness, the normalization of doing things. You you just didn't decide overnight that you were going to go to church. That was something that you decided every day
jason: Mm-hmm.
Bart Herrington: over a certain amount of time. And then it became just, okay, there's no question about that. We're gonna go to church. And in the same way, when we are habituated in that type of way to where we're glorifying God and we're making those decisions each and every day, then when those crisis come, when decisions come, we don't have to think about, well, do I need to go to church or what do I need to do, right? You know, the things of the Word of God are going to come to mind automatically like they do me sticking a key into the steering column.
Adam: I think Jason to your to your point about like why are we so scared of of habits? I think I would I would I would say I mean I've seen it in ministry being in the youth ministry for eleven or twelve years, the desire of of most of the of a lot of the parents was I just want my kids to behave, keep off drugs, keep from getting pregnant and and and just, you know, keep behaving. But there wasn't, you know, most of them was a I want my kid deeply in love with Jesus. I want a heart that is just and and so I mean we've we live in a you know, we grew up almost in a it's all about what you do, not what you not what's going on in here in your desire for Christ. And so I would say, you know, that's that's where I think people are like, let's be careful and and not just make it all about behavior. But on the other side, like let's say I'm dealing with a guy who's addicted to pornography, I've better look at the habits, right? I I can't like I can there there's kind of a threefold. I usually you know, I'm usually engaging their view of God and I'm usually engaging their marriage and especially if they're married men, is like, you know, why you know, you have an outlet here of of of holy sexual gratification. Why why is Why are you not taking advantage of that and then pouring your heart in that? But the other thing is get some get some stuff, what's the word I'm looking for? A program on your computer
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: that that keeps you from going to these sites. And also let's talk about when are you doing this? Well,
Bart Herrington: you
Adam: it's after my wife goes to bed. Then you go to bed with your wife. Okay,
jason: Ha ha
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: you don't stay up and watch TV or or whatever, go to your office. You You have to change what you're doing. And then we really it to me sometimes that's the more immediate is we have to start setting some new habits as we build your relationship with God, as we build your relationship with your spouse. And so, you know, it it's it's gotta be t for me and and I and I go back to the verses you mentioned, Bart
Bart Herrington: See you.
Adam: of of the the putting all on putting off and putting on. I mean, to
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: me that's just just clear scripture that
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: The the Bible is after what we're doing. And so and part yes, part of that, if you don't address the heart, none of those changes are gonna last. That
Bart Herrington: Yeah.
Adam: person eventually is gonna lose that job and go back to stealing and and that that we see about in in Ephesians, that person's gonna go back to to telling to telling lies if their heart's not changed, but you gotta address that behavior. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: Yeah. And again, I agree, Adam, you know, and going back to, you know, why Adams was doing this, you know, it was back in a time when behavior was the focus, right? You know, that's what was being pushed is like, hey, I just want my kid to stop doing this. You know, I don't care what the motivation is or whatever. I just want them to stop. And so, you know, that's when he started addressing this, you know, in that type of context. But as, you know, Adam said, you can't just have a behavioristic approach to that. to where, you know, like the pornography, you know, and again, that's some of the first things I've dealt with that a lot, you know, counseling people with pornography. That's one first things I do is, you know, I'll either have them put an app on their phone or have them go get, you know, an old flip phone, you know, that way they're not having a smartphone, you know, and so these are behavioral, you know, changes, you know, you have a check-in schedule or whatever it might be, you know, and that's treating the Program body as all person right I pick up my phone that might be a trigger that I want to look at something and so if you take that away from them then That's gonna help. I'm swapping their habit But again, if I don't if I don't address their heart motive in that, you know Why why are you why are you doing this? Are you lonely? What's your view of God? You know, what did you do differently this week than you did last week? then you're just leaving them stuck and they're going to do the same thing over and over.
jason: This raises a good question too, 'cause so So then when you're counseling someone dealing with these things where you're you're looking at at changing habits, you're looking at reformulating, is is this why is because I've heard Adam talk about this before, but is this why assigning them homework is so important? And and and talk about, you know, again, even in the assigning of the homework, like how do you keep them from you know, keeping those things accountable. I mean first and foremost, keeping them accountable to are you doing what you're supposed to be doing, but then making sure that they understand the motivation of these things and not just the the doing them in and of themselves or or are you just trying to say, No, j I just need you to change your behavior right now and while we work on this other stuff when we meet.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, yeah, no. So I tell them, usually in the first session, especially when I start assigning homework, I tell them, when you come see me once a week, this is not the magic hour that everything's gonna happen, right? The hard work is on you. And that means that Tuesday through Sunday, when you're not in my office, that means that you're gonna have to be proactively doing things on your own. And if you need me, call me, but this is not the magic hour where... you're gonna come in here and get this great revelation about, hey, I'm fixed. That's part of a sanctification, right? You're working on that throughout the week. And so the homework is purposely then, and for me, it is, a lot of that at first is behavioral because you want to help them actively. help them in the immediacy. But then tell them, there's hope. There's hope in the gospel. If you're a believer, then God has changed your heart and you can renew your mind, which is also part of the putting off, putting on process. There's also renewal of your mind aspect involved in that as well. And so it's not just put off. But it's also I'm renewing my mind in that process of putting on to where I'm seeing the motivation of doing this. It's not simply behavioral because I need to stop or I need to save my marriage or you know, whatever. I'm going to lose my job, right? Those are important. But honestly, those are secondary things as it relates to how we're glorifying God, which is the most important thing. And when that falls in line and when that's the motivation, then everything else will fall in line after that. And so as it relates to homework, you know, I'll give them stuff to do, you know, throughout the week, you know, write me, know, give me a list of, know, whenever you felt tempted to jump on the internet or whatever it be, you know, write the circumstances down. So I'm getting a weekly journal of what they're doing or not doing, you know, what were you thinking in that moment? And so, and then we'll talk through that and again, seek to change those things behaviorally. but also understanding his heart diagnosis behind that. What was that doing for you? Are you numbing loneliness? Are you escaping shame? Are you self-soothing after you have conflict with your wife? And so you're seeking the heart motivation behind that, which is really a worship disorder.
jason: Sure. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: helping them see. It runs deeper than your behavior. It's coming from your heart as well.
Adam: Well this has been a great discussion. it's a great article. I just I love I love that dynamic of of man i yeah, it's habits but it's also heart and you have to address both of and so I would encourage everyone to kind of read that article, think about that article. Hey, get the bigger article. There's another there's a thirty page version out there and
Bart Herrington: Ha ha ha.
Adam: I'm sure If you contact Bart between him writing his dissertation, he'll find time to email ya and and and get that to you. Jason?
jason: Hey, I have one I have one more question, if if if if you don't mind, Bart, because I think this is important too. I mean, where we are the preaching lab. D do you do you find this being helpful in your preaching of of kind of, you know, making more application I think 'cause that's to me that's one of the biggest parts of preaching that sometimes we we kind of overlook or we miss miss out on. It's kind of connecting these things even in your preaching is, you know, we've talked a lot about the counseling room, but you know, this is where where does this where does this kind of impact your preaching and how you present these things to your people as you're pastoring them collectively on the Lord's Day?
Bart Herrington: Yeah, great question. So I think for me, my pastoring of my sermon is somewhat of an overflow of counseling, you know. And so, you know, I'm going through Ephesians. And so we just I just finished Ephesians four and I'm working
jason: yeah. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: in Ephesians five. And so, you know, which is great then to, you know, use examples of, this is what this looks like in real life, not just in the counseling, but in a believer's life as well. Because really that's the goal of counseling, to glorify God, but also have your counselor counsel himself with the scripture. And so if you're able to tie those things together in the pulpit and say, hey, here's what that looks like, then that's just application, is it not? of your sermon. So, yeah.
Adam: Yeah, and I think it I think that the whole putting off and putting on dynamic of scripture is so helpful, not just in in Ephesians, but applying it like when you're you gotta think through when you're telling your people to stop doing something. You really need to think through, okay, what is the opposite of that? 'Cause I I you I've been preaching through Luke, you got the the demon that's cast out Right, and nothing replaces it. The house gets clean. What does he do? He goes and gets friends and comes back and it's worse the person's worse than they were. You really do need to think about when you're telling your people not to do something, to stop doing something, what is that 'cause there's almost always I would say I would say there is always a
Bart Herrington: Mm-hmm.
Adam: a wholly opposite behavior that can be that can be promoted to say instead do this and so
Bart Herrington: Thank
Adam: You know, be care be the preacher that doesn't just tell your people to stop doing bad stuff, but but help see that this is the good stuff you should be doing. So yeah, it it's a big has a big impact on preaching for sure.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, and you don't have to make it up. That's the great thing about it, right? It's in Scripture, right? And so you don't have to go looking for
Adam: Yep. Yep. Yeah.
Bart Herrington: answers, you know, put off bitterness and anger and wrath, you know, and Paul tells you what to put on after that, know, loving kindness
Adam: Yeah, yeah.
Bart Herrington: and goodness and all these things. And so, you know, it's not like you have to make it up or go somewhere else to find it. He's giving you the answer right there. We just have to do the hard work of Sometimes we have to look for it and search that out, but it's there.
jason: I think that's I think that's incredibly helpful and I hope I hope for our our listeners that they they see that y that these things how important these things are, whether they're in counseling or in their sermons, that that to to not, you know, it it's one thing to just be told don't do that, but it it's
Bart Herrington: you
jason: to me it's it's way more encouraging to then be told, but here, do this and here's what the scripture says we are to do. Like you don't have to I'm like you just said, like we don't have to make it up. We it's it's given to us right there in the scriptures. You know, put on these things rather than these things. And that that's that's incredibly incredibly helpful. Adam, any last words before we let we let the almost good doctor Harrington
Bart Herrington: Thank you.
jason: move on with w w whatever he has this afternoon?
Adam: I just encourage you to go to the Preacher Lab Facebook and go to the link and sign up for the preaching lab conference next month.
jason: Yeah, that's a great great thing. Brother Bart, you gonna be able to join us? Put you on the spot. How about that? There you go.
Bart Herrington: I think so, yep.
jason: If if there's no football officiating or anything like that that that may come in the way of it.
Bart Herrington: Yeah, I think we're through, or don't have it that day, so anyway.
jason: Good, good, good, good. Awesome. Well, brother, hey, we appreciate you making time for us. we appreciate your your your willingness to help pastors and to and to also let us glean from from your time in in studies and writings and all those types of things. We're we're very appreciative of it. So thank you, brother, for for helping us to think through these things.
Bart Herrington: Thank you for having me. So I've enjoyed it.
jason: Well, hey guys, if there's any other way we can help you in your ministry, whether it's through preaching, your pastoring, just your your personal life, let us know. We're we're here for you because we believe in pastors. We want to see healthy pastors, we wanna see healthy pulpits. And we do want you to join us for our conference, October twenty-fourth there at Garrett Memorial Baptist Church, one day conference, start at ten, we'll be over at four. You can get back to wherever you're coming from in plenty of time to be able to to fill the pulpit the next day. So we would love to see you. this is Jason Goodwin with my friend Adam. we are hopefully we'll see you again next time on the Preaching Lab podcast.
