Ep. 13 - Procrastination: Why It Makes Sense—and What Can Change (Part1)

WEBVTT
00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:03.040
Welcome everybody to the Practice Ground podcast.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:04.480
My name is Carrie Waterson.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:06.320
I'm a mindset and habits coach.
00:00:06.719 --> 00:00:07.839
I am Ken Lee.
00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:09.359
I am a confidence coach.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:10.720
Nice to be here, Carrie.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:11.679
Hello.
00:00:12.400 --> 00:00:27.839
Today we're going to be talking about procrastination, why we do it, the impact of procrastination on our lives, and our self-perception and confidence, and also ways to overcome it and not have it be such an issue in our lives.
00:00:28.079 --> 00:00:43.439
By the end of this episode, we hope to give you different ways of viewing procrastination and some strategies that's perhaps perhaps different from what you've heard before, so that you can get excited to approach the areas in your life that maybe you've been procrastinating.
00:00:43.679 --> 00:00:52.399
Now, in this episode, you're going to hear us talking about some tools and frameworks that we've actually been talking about in past episodes.
00:00:52.640 --> 00:01:11.040
And you'll start to see how the self-coaching model and the Q craving response reward habit framework from atomic habits will actually serve that we've been talking about in previous episodes, will actually be really useful tools for procrastination in your life.
00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:11.920
Okay.
00:01:13.040 --> 00:01:29.120
So Ken, one of the things though I thought that might be just a different way of leading into this conversation is maybe giving maybe it's an exercise.
00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:31.680
Clearly, Ken, I'm gonna be editing parts of this out.
00:01:36.959 --> 00:02:00.719
So an exercise I thought that might be really useful just to kind of give clients or I'm sorry, just to kind of give people an expansive view before we even start the conversation, would be when you think of your life without procrastination in certain areas.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:06.319
What emotions come up for you if you can name what you would what you would say?
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:11.199
Or how would you describe in using some words what that feeling would feel like?
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:13.520
And I'm gonna share you with you some of mine.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:16.719
The first thing that came to me was flowy.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:22.240
Um I'm not sure if that is if that's a word, but let's make it a word.
00:02:22.400 --> 00:02:23.599
Uh, what would that mean?
00:02:23.759 --> 00:02:24.240
Flowy.
00:02:24.560 --> 00:02:30.080
I think um it's uh a life without friction.
00:02:30.240 --> 00:02:37.919
Uh you can imagine ice skating would be flowy because you're smoothly skating across the ice.
00:02:38.000 --> 00:02:44.960
Uh, and you know when it gets bumpy, when people have skated a while there and there's friction and you're kind of stumbling over that.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:51.280
That's what procrastination would be kind of those little ruts that cause you to break.
00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:56.319
But if in uh without procrastination, you're really uh flowy.
00:02:56.639 --> 00:03:03.439
Uh it would be like a basketball player uh in the zone hitting shots if you're writing.
00:03:03.680 --> 00:03:08.719
Um you're not, and this is when I when I think about procrastinations.
00:03:08.960 --> 00:03:18.560
Often in a project like I'm writing, I have some sort of writer's block, feel some emotion, and then want to escape it.
00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:22.479
And that would then be watching YouTube, right?
00:03:22.719 --> 00:03:25.599
A form of procrastination.
00:03:25.759 --> 00:03:33.280
Uh, if I didn't have that, I would just be continuing to write, write, write, write, and just feeling that energy flow through me.
00:03:33.439 --> 00:03:42.400
Uh being able to just be excited and energized by this frictionless environment.
00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.680
Um, yeah, there's there's nothing uncomfortable I'd want to avoid.
00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.639
It's all just in the zone.
00:03:51.039 --> 00:03:54.319
And so um I would really feel on fire.
00:03:54.479 --> 00:03:56.319
I can feel that right now, just talking about it.
00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:57.919
So how about yeah.
00:03:58.319 --> 00:04:03.280
That's so interesting because it's not saying that you would not write.
00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:10.879
You're saying, but when you do write the thing that you're procrastinating on, this is the energy that you imagine that you'd feel.
00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.599
For me, you're not gonna believe this, Ken.
00:04:14.240 --> 00:04:23.360
I have words written down, but I have like movement, yeah, in motion, yeah, versus um like life being bottlenect or stopped.
00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:28.079
Um, and I have it, it would I view procrastination actually as energy.
00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:33.680
Energy with procrastination is all internal and beating you up and exhausting you.
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:39.519
Yeah, so energy is still being expended, but the outside world looks it looks the same.
00:04:39.759 --> 00:04:42.399
Um, but my third word was flow.
00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:49.839
So when I talk about habits, yes, when I talk about habits, I often talk about habits in terms of what makes your life flow.
00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:52.879
The habits aren't just so that you can get good at habits.
00:04:53.120 --> 00:04:57.199
We want to do habits because there's something that's making not making our life flow.
00:04:57.360 --> 00:04:59.360
It could be whatever, you know, it could be whatever.
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:05.759
And so procrastinating on something, it feels like that portion is not flowing, whatever it might be for you.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:09.839
It's it's it's obviously very personal to you or each one of us.
00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:11.839
So it feels like it's opening up flow.
00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:17.600
And the last one I wrote um is more like diffusion, procrastination.
00:05:17.680 --> 00:05:29.360
It tends to there's tends to be like this when you aren't avoiding it, although internally it feels like a buildup of pressure because your subconscious is knowing that you're not doing what you actually should be or want to be.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.279
And so there is like this low grade anxiety, which is pressure, right?
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:46.800
Um and uh so to me, a lack of or where procrastination isn't in um negatively impacting your life, it feels like there's diffusion there.
00:05:47.439 --> 00:05:51.199
So that that's when we do procrastinate, is that right?
00:05:51.360 --> 00:05:52.800
Is we feel diffusion?
00:05:53.120 --> 00:06:01.920
No, diffusion to me is like um if you take a pin and you prick a balloon, yeah, and all of a sudden that big pressure starts getting to be relieved.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:03.519
Got it, got it.
00:06:04.160 --> 00:06:04.480
Okay.
00:06:05.120 --> 00:06:12.959
Um, so do you should we talk about um why we procrastinate?
00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:17.519
Would that be a good flowy topic to flow to?
00:06:18.079 --> 00:06:19.120
Let's flow there.
00:06:19.279 --> 00:06:22.560
But first I wonder, because you talk about this quite a bit.
00:06:26.480 --> 00:06:42.319
Procrastination, as we talked about at the beginning, you know, before we even hit record, it can be as something small as I have these Amazon packages that have been sitting there on the dining room table for three weeks, and for some reason I keep procrastinating, right?
00:06:44.240 --> 00:07:04.000
Or bigger, like I have I have I I write for a living, I write as a way to convey messaging that's important so that it's you know, so that people are aware of help that can be out there, and yet I'm finding myself blocked and putting it off and turning to something else, right?
00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:32.639
And so to talk about like procrastination in terms of the experience that we have of ourselves as we live our lives, I think is kind of an important way to set this up because then we're gonna be talking about number one, how it has been impacting us, but also ways you're gonna we're both gonna offer ways to think about it differently so that it feels like an approachable thing where it doesn't have to be a permanent part of our lives.
00:07:32.879 --> 00:07:38.720
And here um here's a quote that I thought that I might lean in, and then I definitely would like to turn it over to you.
00:07:39.279 --> 00:07:54.800
It's from Stephen Pressfield, and I think it might give a little bit of um of a way to yeah, a way to to uh think of this ahead of time.
00:07:57.680 --> 00:07:58.800
Let's do it.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:03.360
So the quote that I have from Stephen Pressfield is from his book, The War of Art.
00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:05.120
You might be familiar with him.
00:08:05.439 --> 00:08:09.360
He is basically the one who coined the term the resistance, right?
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:10.560
That many of us feel.
00:08:10.720 --> 00:08:20.720
And I think the resistance or resistance could be that emotional component that you were you were mentioning at the beginning of the conversation that um often accompanies procrastination.
00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:27.920
His quote is this most of us have two lives, the life we live and the unlived life within us.
00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.199
And between the two stands resistance.
00:08:32.080 --> 00:08:36.960
And I would also say aka procrastination.
00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:54.000
Based on that, would you like to move into maybe a good working definition of procrastination so that we can look at it actually um really see what it is?
00:08:54.240 --> 00:08:59.600
Because actually one of the examples that I gave actually may not be procrastination.
00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:11.600
Yeah, I think uh procrastination is putting off what you intend to do until a later time.
00:09:12.159 --> 00:09:18.240
So, in the model which we described in episode 10, uh it would be in the A-line.
00:09:18.480 --> 00:09:31.279
Procrastination would be in action in terms of when you had set aside time to wash the dishes or write the assignment, procrastination would not would be not doing that.
00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.639
And can you tell me which example do you think did was not a reflection of procrastination?
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:38.399
Because I think that it's very valuable.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:39.279
Yes.
00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:43.360
Um, I think I gave the example of the Amazon packages just now, off the cuff.
00:09:43.519 --> 00:09:46.639
And even as I was saying it, I said, I'm not sure that it is.
00:09:46.960 --> 00:09:58.240
Because procrastination, as you said, the act of delaying or postponing tasks, despite knowing that doing so is actually gonna create negative consequences.
00:09:58.399 --> 00:10:02.159
So the negative consequences part, I think, is missing from Amazon.
00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:06.320
Unless you're like, okay, well, I'm not gonna get my, I need to get it returned within 30 days.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:08.159
I'm not gonna get my refund, right?
00:10:08.320 --> 00:10:09.840
Maybe that's the case.
00:10:10.080 --> 00:10:33.519
So I think there could be something to be said for in the very beginning, helping people just actually draw a distinction from what is actually procrastinating, in which case it you're doing something else, you're avoiding the thing that you want to do, despite knowing that avoiding doing it or delaying it is going to create secondary or negative negative consequences down the line.
00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.360
Wait, can you can you replay for me the actual Amazon example?
00:10:37.519 --> 00:10:38.480
Let me just track it.
00:10:38.559 --> 00:10:40.080
And then I like your definition.
00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:47.519
I just want to explore that a little bit more because you added a little something to it that I didn't think about, what's the negative consequences?
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:53.759
So replay the Amazon example so I can understand that there are no negative consequences, I guess, is what you're saying in that one.
00:10:54.080 --> 00:10:56.080
Well, okay.
00:10:56.399 --> 00:11:03.360
So technically, I mean, technically, I suppose there could be negative consequences, right?
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:07.279
You don't return the packages within 30 days like you're supposed to.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:09.519
Therefore, you don't get your refund.
00:11:09.679 --> 00:11:09.919
Yes.
00:11:10.159 --> 00:11:12.399
And so maybe, maybe you're maybe you're right.
00:11:12.639 --> 00:11:16.000
Maybe it is procrastinating and doing that, and therefore you don't get your refund.
00:11:16.159 --> 00:11:22.720
Um, I guess what I was thinking was that it is not some things are some tasks you're just delaying.
00:11:22.879 --> 00:11:25.039
Maybe another example could be Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:11:25.120 --> 00:11:25.360
Yeah.
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:30.159
People might say, Oh, I've been procrastinating, cleaning up my garage for months now, right?
00:11:30.399 --> 00:11:46.720
And then I suppose in that case, if it has a very negative consequence because winter is coming and you need to park your car inside the garage, and then winter comes and you didn't do it, and now all of a sudden it has negative consequences, not just for yourself or other people, that could be procrastinating.
00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:56.240
But if that never happens, if it's just something that you said you'd do and there necessarily isn't that negative consequence, then um maybe that's not procrastination.
00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.639
Maybe that's just you decided to use your time differently instead of the garage.
00:12:00.799 --> 00:12:12.799
Now, if you're gonna spend that time beating yourself up for it and making it an identity thing, like here's another thing I said I was gonna do, and I'm not gonna do it, of course, then it has that negative consequence of continually providing using it as an example.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:13.279
Yeah.
00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:14.799
Okay, I got you.
00:12:15.120 --> 00:12:15.679
I'm following you.
00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:20.399
And this is this is interesting because you and I have not talked about this, um, which is good.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:32.080
Um, I I gave the definition I did because it did not have the negative consequences attached, but I can understand why procrastination would could lead to negative consequences.
00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:43.600
For example, I mentioned or, you know, I I have um when I was an undergraduate student, a tendency to put off my writing assignments until the last minute.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:48.879
I just like writer's block, this is hard, there's a lot of material to cover, uh, whatever it is.
00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:50.480
And so I went to the computer lab.
00:12:50.559 --> 00:12:53.120
This is the days before you had your own computer.
00:12:53.679 --> 00:13:04.080
And then I remember uh writing the whole thing in the last minute, and then the negative consequence, Carrie, is I had forgotten to save that paper and I lost everything.
00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:05.200
Oh my goodness.
00:13:05.440 --> 00:13:09.360
So procrastination can lead to a negative consequence.
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:16.240
Whether you or not you want to include that as part of the definition, I think is I'm I'm I'm that's fair, that's a fair question to consider.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:19.279
But certainly there can be negative consequences.
00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:24.000
And I'm trying to point out and support your assertion there that there can definitely be negative consequences.
00:13:24.639 --> 00:13:37.519
But you're I think what you're saying is that maybe in your definition, procrastination is recognizing that there could be, or is that that's part of your definition, is that there's negative consequences to procrastination.
00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:42.080
Um yes, but also that's what Google said.
00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:44.000
Google.
00:13:44.799 --> 00:13:51.759
Well, and here's and here's the reason why here's the reason why I went there is for exactly this this reason that you and I are talking.
00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:59.039
The words that we use um have a great impact on the way that we perceive ourselves.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:05.200
And and sometimes then we turn those words that we use um into identity labels.
00:14:05.360 --> 00:14:05.600
Yeah.
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.840
So sometimes it's just really useful just to make sure that we're using words that actually mean what they mean.
00:14:12.000 --> 00:14:15.279
And then we can say, okay, wait a second, actually, there's no negative delay.
00:14:15.360 --> 00:14:17.519
I just decided I don't want to clean up my garage now.
00:14:17.679 --> 00:14:20.159
Maybe it's not important, there's no negative consequences.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.840
Was I really procrastinating?
00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:30.480
Maybe I can take that off my carry procrastinates list and just say, no, I'm decided that I'll do it in the summer or I will revisit this next summer, right?
00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:30.799
Yeah.
00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:32.480
If that's something I want to do.
00:14:32.639 --> 00:14:42.639
But if you're a procrastinating, it's usually you're like you said at the beginning of the conversation, it's there is um it invokes an emotion when you think of a thing.
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:49.759
And it it triggers an avoidance response.
00:14:50.960 --> 00:15:06.960
And that avoidance response, if carried over time, creates negative consequences, and you feel that negative, you feel that awareness of a negative consequence down the line in the present moment, yet you still avoid.
00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:16.159
Yeah, it's probably now a good time to talk about why we're procrastinate, and then we can come back to your Google definition and assess if that's what we want to stick with, right?
00:15:16.240 --> 00:15:18.480
Is the the consequences, you know.
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:30.720
We um Brooke Castillo says that procrastination is delaying what we intend to do, and most often it's because we want to avoid a negative emotion.
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:44.080
And uh I think that so that makes it a cognitive problem in her mind, because what we learned about in episode 10 with the model is that all emotions, all feelings come from thoughts.
00:15:44.159 --> 00:15:47.519
That's why I say it's cognitive, because feelings come from thoughts.
00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:53.360
I'll give an example here, and then I do want to go to another concept that she talks about, that's the motivational triad.
00:15:53.519 --> 00:16:13.360
But I've been having um when I used to write medium articles and my newsletter, it was very easy for me to just man, I I'm stuck and I go to YouTube, right?
00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:17.360
So what's the emotion that's coming up for me?
00:16:17.600 --> 00:16:24.320
Um and I think the emotion could be many things.
00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:25.840
So one would be frustrated.
00:16:26.000 --> 00:16:28.320
I'm frustrated because I can't think of the next sentence.
00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.399
This should be easier, right?
00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:51.200
And so if my feeling of frustration is what I'm trying to avoid when I'm procrastinating, YouTube is the action I take, but the relief I'm trying to get from YouTube is is what I'm seeking here.
00:16:51.440 --> 00:16:54.879
So um relief from the feeling of frustration.
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:55.519
That's right.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:57.759
Based on the thought, this should be easier.
00:16:58.320 --> 00:16:58.879
I think so.
00:16:58.960 --> 00:16:59.360
Thank you.
00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.799
Yes, thought like this, writing this should be easier.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:27.039
Um now it's interesting because um sometimes, and this was when I was preparing for this podcast, and I was writing my notes for this podcast, and it wasn't necessarily about um this should be easier leading to frustration.
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:30.160
I think I was just sometimes I just get bored.
00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:31.359
You know what I'm saying?
00:17:31.519 --> 00:17:38.559
Like, yeah, and like I'm and and I think my thought was like there could be something more fun I'm doing, and it led to the same action.
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:41.519
The action you can call procrastination or YouTube, right?
00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:47.599
Which is which is or YouTube, or you're gonna be synonymous with procrastination, exactly, right?
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:49.680
And meaning it's become a habit, right?
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:52.720
That brings in James Clear's things, and we could talk about that.
00:17:53.279 --> 00:17:59.279
But what Brooks says, it's not a time management issue, procrastination.
00:17:59.839 --> 00:18:02.400
We're trying to avoid certain feelings.
00:18:02.559 --> 00:18:05.839
I want to give one more example to just drive it home.
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:21.200
I was uh coaching a client named Jane, and she was given an assignment to write, but the assignment had no deadline, so there's no external pressure for her to finish it.
00:18:21.359 --> 00:18:24.960
She interviewed the people, and then she just sat on it.
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:28.880
And during the coaching call, she goes, I don't know why, I just can't write this thing.
00:18:29.119 --> 00:18:37.440
And what we examined was she had a whole collection of thoughts that was preventing her from writing it.
00:18:37.599 --> 00:18:44.400
For example, she had interviewed uh the patient and then felt guilty that she was taking so long.
00:18:44.799 --> 00:18:52.880
She felt regret that the doctor had moved on and she could no longer like, like, oh, what's the point?
00:18:52.960 --> 00:19:04.319
I'm not even going to be able to, you know, write this story in such a way that the doctor is going to be able to see a finished product, but because that doctor's already left.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:09.920
So there's a whole host of negative feelings, and that's exactly why she was procrastinating.
00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:14.160
She wanted to avoid those feelings of guilt and regret.
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:20.400
Now, I guess I'll just continue to the quote-unquote solution here.
00:19:20.480 --> 00:19:33.039
If the root cause is, you know, feelings, and we want to avoid feelings, and therefore we procrastinate, and the thought is like I feel I feel terrible about doing this.
00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:38.640
She came up with a different thought, and the thought was I can do hard things.
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:44.640
And I can do hard things is there's a certain sense of pride in that.
00:19:45.279 --> 00:19:48.559
And the next day she finished her project.
00:19:48.799 --> 00:20:01.839
So that's a clear example of the model at work, how procrastination can be solved at a cognitive level, understanding the feelings you feel and the thought.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:05.599
But I I wanted to, I guess, if I can shift, Carrie, and you can shift.
00:20:05.920 --> 00:20:06.640
Yeah, please do.
00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:07.519
Yeah.
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:23.759
The idea of negative consequences, and and you know, I I don't know what our if our brain thinks that far in terms of negative consequences, meaning I just went to YouTube, right?
00:20:23.839 --> 00:20:25.279
Because I was trying to find relief.
00:20:25.440 --> 00:20:36.240
And I'm not sure I was conscious of negative consequences, but I do know another of Brooke's ideas here I think normalizes procrastination.
00:20:36.319 --> 00:20:45.039
And I think it's important that we know that it's not like somebody's out there saying, ah, I don't procrastinate.
00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:47.759
I think a lot of people are familiar with this idea of procrastination.
00:20:48.319 --> 00:20:54.240
I looked up some statistics and uh it was done uh on a group of students in 2014.
00:20:54.319 --> 00:21:00.079
I get a sense that students in 2026 care are very similar to students in 2014, undergraduate students.
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:04.960
So I think this study still applies, but 87% said they procrastinate.
00:21:05.200 --> 00:21:10.799
Now, I don't know the superhero who are the 13% who don't procrastinate.
00:21:10.880 --> 00:21:12.079
I was not one of them.
00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:20.960
Um, but also another study by a um psychologist showed that 20% are chronic procrastinators.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:24.240
So this suggests that this is just a normal behavior.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:32.160
And Brooke tries to explain this framework of why it's normal using something called the motivational triad, which is what I want to bring in here.
00:21:32.559 --> 00:21:35.759
Um, number one, we seek pleasure.
00:21:36.400 --> 00:21:41.279
Uh in that case, for me, I guess it would be YouTube, right, instead of writing.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:43.039
Two is we avoid pain.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:46.799
Like it's hard, frustrating, right?
00:21:46.880 --> 00:21:50.799
The pain of the feelings is something you want to avoid.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:55.200
So you avoid that pain and you you lower your energy.
00:21:55.359 --> 00:22:02.240
So it's much easier, it's very frictionless to do YouTube instead of writing and Really thinking hard about the next sentence.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:08.000
So I think that is a great framework.
00:22:08.160 --> 00:22:27.119
And a framework, if you can understand why our human brains procrastinate because it's normal, then we can eventually understand that we're going to need to reverse the motivational triad in order to not procrastinate.
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.880
So we can get to that later.
00:22:29.039 --> 00:22:32.240
But is there anything else you want to talk about related to the motivational triad?
00:22:32.319 --> 00:22:43.839
Because I just think that is a nice, maybe just makes me feel a little bit that people can understand themselves, that kind of we were built to do that, to survive.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:46.240
We couldn't expend much energy.
00:22:46.720 --> 00:22:58.079
Um and pain could be death, it could be lots of other things that lead to death, but and and pleasure is how we reproduce, how we survive as a species.
00:22:58.559 --> 00:23:14.799
So prehistorically, it made sense for us to do these things, but we know in order to evolve and to do the things which would not endanger us in terms of these consequences you're talking about, we would have to start thinking differently in terms of the motivational triad.
00:23:16.240 --> 00:23:48.720
Yeah, no, I'm so glad that that was on your list that you really wanted to bring up because when I first heard that on Brooke Castillo's podcast several years ago, it really helped me to number one, reduce the shame from my procrastination tendencies in certain areas because it allowed me to see what was actually happening at, like you said, both the nervous system level and the the cognitive level, it wasn't just Carrie is lazy or Carrie just is incapable.
00:23:48.880 --> 00:23:51.279
There were very real things going on.
00:23:51.519 --> 00:24:26.240
And when you said that, for example, with the motivational triad, if our brain's fundamental purpose or function is to keep us alive, and the way that it has um, the way that it does that is by filtering out all of the inputs that we get for things that help us seek pleasure, avoid pain, and conserve energy, we can look at our present areas where we're procrastinating and kind of check things off.
00:24:26.640 --> 00:24:28.799
Where where is this painful?
00:24:29.039 --> 00:24:32.480
Where does this um feel like it's not pleasurable, right?
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:38.160
Or um where is this asking more energy than maybe I think that I have?
00:24:38.400 --> 00:25:02.400
So if you talk about the survival benefit of conserving energy, or why our brain would want to try to seek the most efficient thing, which would be I can pick up my phone, turn on YouTube, versus I have um an article that I want to write, and it's going to require cognitive energy to put it into structure and make some salient points and think of the reader.
00:25:02.559 --> 00:25:07.039
That's a lot of stuff that your your brain is being asked to do.
00:25:07.279 --> 00:25:12.720
Whereas if you have a phone right next to you, it's much easier to literally tap the YouTube icon.
00:25:12.880 --> 00:25:14.880
But what is the survival benefit?
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:33.599
Is that we want the our brain wants us to do or directs us to do the most efficient things because in the most dangerous moments, should we need to flee or should we need to fight, that we have the energy within us to be able to do that.
00:25:33.839 --> 00:25:40.720
I think that part is really important, not just that we're trying to just conserve energy, our brain tries to conserve energy.
00:25:40.880 --> 00:25:49.759
There is a there is a survival component to it, that when the chips are down and your danger is right there, there is energy stored.
00:25:49.839 --> 00:25:51.039
You haven't used up all your energy.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.440
There's energy stored within you to be able to use it.
00:25:53.839 --> 00:26:04.720
And I love what you said that nowadays, in modern times, we don't need to be worried that to conserve that energy in case a woolly mammoth comes, right?
00:26:05.039 --> 00:26:05.920
It's a woolly mammoth.
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:09.519
Or or even in the pioneer days, right?
00:26:09.839 --> 00:26:12.400
So much that you had to be prepared for.
00:26:12.559 --> 00:26:19.920
You had to make sure you had some energy available to, you know, protect yourself and your family from the wild or et cetera.
00:26:20.240 --> 00:26:28.400
But in modern times, we don't, well, for some of us, we shouldn't, we shouldn't assume.
00:26:28.480 --> 00:26:39.440
I mean, this is a privileged point of view, we don't have that need to conserve that energy for our everyday physical survival.
00:26:40.000 --> 00:26:49.119
And so to reverse the motivational triad would be to tell our brains, I have an energy, I have this energy within me, and I actually want to use it.
00:26:49.359 --> 00:26:51.119
So I can do hard things.
00:26:51.279 --> 00:27:06.079
I want to actually, instead of turning to YouTube, I actually want to focus on this article because I would like to be able to get, you know, the opening paragraph because I know it will lead to the next paragraph and eventually it will lead to completion, which is actually what I deeply desire.
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:11.519
I do not deeply desire to turn to my YouTube app because it's easiest right now.
00:27:11.680 --> 00:27:19.279
I want to use the energy, not for, you know, that that was going to be for survival purposes to do this thing.
00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:29.759
I guess that's one of the things I really wanted to point out that there is um a reasoning, especially with the energy component, especially when nowadays so many people feel really tired.
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:31.759
Yeah.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:42.480
And as we talk about these reasons why we procrastinate, um, I guess number one, to avoid an emotion.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:27:58.880
Number two, because our primitive brains were built along the primitive triad motivational triad, because procrastination fills that need to uh seek pleasure, avoid pain, and reduce energy in the ways that you said it.
00:27:59.200 --> 00:28:03.200
That doesn't explain all the different reasons why we procrastinate.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:11.440
And I think as we were preparing for this call, you came up with some ideas that I wanted to hear more about from you, if you don't mind.
00:28:11.599 --> 00:28:13.440
You know, what actually is the problem?
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:17.039
I think was one of them, um, if I'm saying that correctly.
00:28:17.200 --> 00:28:26.240
So if you're tracking with me, and then also uh related to um, I don't know if it's the same or different, the David Allen, the three types of work.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.799
So is is that somewhere you can tell me?
00:28:28.880 --> 00:28:39.920
Because there's, you know, we serve a diverse audience, and I just want to be able to kind of tackle all the aspects of what might be behind procrastination.
00:28:40.480 --> 00:28:51.599
Um, no, I appreciate that because this is something that I was butting up against as I continued to become skilled with the model and using it, and it was very exciting.
00:28:51.839 --> 00:29:02.160
So if I thought about, let's say, as you mentioned, procrastination in the self-coaching model, if you put that in the A-line as something that I'm doing, I'm procrastinating, or action that I'm not doing.
00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:03.519
So it's inaction, right?
00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:19.839
Right in the A line, then you go backwards up it and you say, okay, well, what were you feeling that that led to, that generated, or that created um the inaction or that drove you to procrastinate, right?
00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:31.920
Um, and then it might be whatever that emotion is that would lead you to procrastinate versus doing the task that you decided you wanted to do is very informative.
00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.359
And then you say, well, what thought created that feeling, right?
00:29:35.759 --> 00:29:38.240
And so I could get actually very good at that.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:43.920
I could get very good at, for example, um, let's just say procrastinating on my website.
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:49.759
And this will segue into the topics that you just discussed or you asked of me, okay?
00:29:50.160 --> 00:29:57.200
So procrastinating on my website, I would constantly write on my timesheet, work on the rebs website from this block, nine to eleven.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:04.240
And then nine to eleven would pass, and I would say, I would be frustrated because I'm like looking at there's so many decisions to make.
00:30:04.400 --> 00:30:08.720
Which ones should I, you know, which ones do I start with?
00:30:09.119 --> 00:30:14.319
You think working on website just means you go to your WordPress and you just start working on your website, right?
00:30:14.559 --> 00:30:24.480
But as I noticed that I was constantly getting blocked and words were not appearing on the website the way that I wanted, I started doing the model and thinking, okay, what am I feeling?
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:31.920
I'm feeling um it would be like almost like overwhelmed, paralyzed.
00:30:32.319 --> 00:30:34.400
What is creating that feeling?
00:30:34.640 --> 00:30:50.799
And it would be multiple different thoughts, but the first thought to create paralyzed would be I don't even know who I'm actually going to be writing to on the website.
00:30:51.279 --> 00:30:58.079
You and I both know that you can put any kind of website up, and if if if that's a block, then you can definitely start with putting any kind of website up.
00:30:58.240 --> 00:30:59.440
But I already had a website.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:08.319
The purpose of this revamped website was to create new messaging to more specifically speak to a problem that I saw, right?
00:31:09.200 --> 00:31:13.759
And to offer different solutions for that growing problem that I saw.
00:31:14.079 --> 00:31:16.400
But it required multiple decisions.
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:23.759
So simply writing um work on website wasn't, and then the action wasn't happening.
00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:28.880
The question became it's not necessarily like a thinking problem anymore, or what's my thought?
00:31:29.119 --> 00:31:40.160
It more becomes if you want to do this action of getting the website done, do you even know what that would look like?
00:31:40.720 --> 00:31:42.319
What would done look like for you?
00:31:42.400 --> 00:31:44.640
And you think it's the website would be complete.
00:31:45.200 --> 00:31:51.119
In order to have the website complete, though, what actually what decisions need to be made?
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:52.640
What things are blocking you?
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.720
And so I started writing a list of of have I given myself permission to actually decide I'm gonna move this a certain way?
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:10.319
The other thing was um which I was going to use Wix or WordPress, and I thought Wix would be much easier, but I was just struggling, but I knew WordPress better.
00:32:10.480 --> 00:32:19.200
And so it became but like, but I I bought the domain on on Wix, but I know WordPress, and this other one's supposed to be more intuitive, but there's a learning curve and I don't have time.
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:27.279
And I would just stay frozen and I would procrastinate because there were decisions that needed to be made and I wasn't making them.
00:32:27.519 --> 00:32:36.799
The other thing would be um, do you know how to do the thing that you say that you're procrastinating on?
00:32:37.359 --> 00:32:49.039
And so sometimes the question was um, for example, with the Wix versus WordPress, I was trying to work on the website on Wix, I just didn't know how to do it.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:56.400
And so I could make part of what to do that day in that block, learn how to build website on Wix.
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:01.440
But what I really wanted was to be able to have it completed, period.
00:33:01.599 --> 00:33:03.279
The fastest way to completion.
00:33:03.440 --> 00:33:05.759
And that to me, the decision had to be made.
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:10.960
We're gonna ditch Wix for now, and we're going to just rebuild on the present website.
00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:15.839
Now that I have one decision made, it makes it easier when I say work on the website.
00:33:16.000 --> 00:33:18.160
At least I know which where I'm gonna be working on.
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:37.200
And it was just a series of those decisions that made you realize that it wasn't necessarily just um, it wasn't just necessarily I knew what was paralyzing me, but yet I had to keep I had to keep distilling it down.
00:33:37.920 --> 00:33:49.519
That reminds me of um a concept in the book Essentialism on how to break through procrastination or when you get stuck.
00:33:49.839 --> 00:33:53.680
He calls it the WIN uh acronym, what's important now.
00:33:54.559 --> 00:34:00.400
And it kind of you kind of went through that decision-making process with me right now in terms of what's important now.
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:03.759
Well, the first thing that's important is what platform am I gonna use.
00:34:03.920 --> 00:34:08.159
Uh, I want to get it done now, so I'm gonna use WordPress, right?
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:09.280
Because I'm familiar with it.
00:34:09.360 --> 00:34:11.920
And you just tackled it like that.
00:34:12.320 --> 00:34:17.760
Um, that helps me too, in terms of getting moving through things.
00:34:17.920 --> 00:34:28.800
I think also, I wonder if we could apply um the four laws of behavior change from atomic habits, because I want to test it with you.
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:56.400
What it sounds like to me is the difference between work on websites and perhaps getting more specific, deciding between Wix and WordPress is for me number three, um, which is make it make it simpler or make it simple.
00:34:57.840 --> 00:35:03.119
Work on website is a is hard, it's vague, it's nebulous.
00:35:03.360 --> 00:35:12.159
But to simplify things, we ask a better question, and that is at the response level, like this is what I'm gonna do.
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:21.679
I didn't know what you thought about that, but it sounded felt to me like uh rule number three, you you simplify the decision-making process by asking a better question.
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.719
Yeah, I think that it's a really powerful way to look at that.
00:35:27.039 --> 00:35:38.639
What I think about when I think of the Q craving response reward, which is the four-part habit loop from atomic habits by James Clare, that we've talked about in multiple episodes before.
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:52.239
But I love that we're talking about procrastination, not only from the Brook Castillo's self-coaching model perspective, which gives you a lot of awareness to the thinking process and the causal relationship between your thinking and then your feelings and actions and what it ultimately produces.
00:35:52.320 --> 00:35:54.800
So you can see, oh, this is how I create procrastination.
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.199
Then you have five different components you can work with.
00:35:57.360 --> 00:36:07.039
With James Clare's atomic habits, four-part um habit formation loop, it's actually um almost just as interesting and fluid.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:16.079
The very first thing that I think is probably the most interesting and maybe important part of that framework is actually not the response, it's actually the cue.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:25.119
So the cue isn't just make it obvious or visible, unless you're talking about what is the immediate association that your mind has when you think of the thing.
00:36:25.440 --> 00:36:28.239
So if you think of the medium article, that's the cue.
00:36:28.400 --> 00:36:29.440
Think of the article.
00:36:29.599 --> 00:36:33.199
It's very useful to say when you're word blocked, right?
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:38.400
When I think of the article, what am I, what is what's immediately associated with it?
00:36:38.559 --> 00:36:43.280
And your brain might say, like frustration, dread, whatever.
00:36:43.679 --> 00:36:48.000
And then you notice that association leads you to either paralysis or YouTube.
00:36:49.679 --> 00:37:00.639
Some of the very the easiest ways to really get excited about working through procrastination in a different way is to be able to see immediately how you can change the association.
00:37:00.880 --> 00:37:04.159
What association would you like with your medium article writing?
00:37:04.320 --> 00:37:13.440
It would like, I would like it to be um I sit down for an hour and I no matter what, I don't get up because I'm working through the process.
00:37:13.599 --> 00:37:21.599
I want that hour to be related to medium period because I don't want to keep reinforcing sit down to write medium article.
00:37:21.840 --> 00:37:24.719
And then actually, what is associated with is YouTube.
00:37:25.519 --> 00:37:33.360
So medium article is associated with YouTube versus medium article is associated with laptop up and I do the wrangling, whatever is required.
00:37:33.440 --> 00:37:38.960
And then you can use different things to figure out do you know what you're you want to write?
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:41.599
What thing is making it hard for you to write, right?
00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:53.039
And you're actually still actually engaged in the task versus avoiding the task and coping with that uncomfortable emotion with something that's um that's your avoidant or coping mechanism, right?
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:01.679
So I think that's one of the most useful things for anything someone's procrastinating, it's procrastinating on, like a student who has a term paper.
00:38:01.920 --> 00:38:05.199
When you think of term paper, what's your immediate association?
00:38:05.360 --> 00:38:07.679
And it could be like panic, right?
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:16.079
Which causes you to go to the cafeteria, get some coffee, get some snacks, and then maybe go on Instagram instead of necessarily writing your paper right away.
00:38:16.320 --> 00:38:19.519
What association would you prefer when you think of term paper?
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:27.519
It's like, okay, I actually want to give myself the experience of saying this term paper is due either tomorrow or three weeks from now.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:50.400
I want to give myself the experience of breaking that down and then showing up in my laptop and doing the specific things that I said, or at least if I'm not, um if I am struggling, I'm staying actually engaged with it on the laptop versus where it's presently associated with um, think of the term paper, go to the cafeteria to get snacks and go to Instagram.
00:38:50.639 --> 00:39:10.079
It immediately starts to like give you this felt sense, like with the exercise we did at the beginning, the call, of the experience you want to have that you want to give yourself, because that's actually starting to really heighten your craving and reward components, which are the second and fourth steps of the habit formation loop.
00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:11.840
So the cue is very telling.
00:39:12.000 --> 00:39:14.400
You get to know, oh, no wonder why I keep avoiding it.
00:39:14.480 --> 00:39:15.840
It's associated with YouTube.
00:39:16.320 --> 00:39:23.519
You know, to give a concrete example, there was a time before I made decisions about who I want to serve, how I want to serve them.
00:39:23.599 --> 00:39:28.079
And part of the question was like, will I be teaching habit formation and the self-coaching model?
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:30.880
Whereas my previous five years, I didn't.
00:39:31.039 --> 00:39:34.480
I kind of felt like, well, I can't have people say this is how we're gonna work together.
00:39:34.639 --> 00:39:37.039
We're gonna you know, develop mastering these things.
00:39:37.119 --> 00:39:40.000
But this time I decided to say, yes, I'm seeing the gap.
00:39:40.159 --> 00:39:41.360
These tools will help you.
00:39:41.519 --> 00:39:42.960
This will be part of our process.
00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:49.760
I am going to say this is what we're going to be gaining mastery in while we talk about your struggles so that you have these skill sets.
00:39:49.920 --> 00:39:51.679
And I had to just sit say that.
00:39:51.920 --> 00:40:04.719
But before I even let myself give myself permission to do any of that, I would sit down at the dining room table, calling this my business building block from let's say nine to 11, and I would feel immediate fatigue.
00:40:04.960 --> 00:40:07.119
I would sit down and I would feel exhausted.
00:40:07.199 --> 00:40:09.280
And I would say, oh my gosh, I need to take a nap.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:15.679
And after a while, it became sit down, feel extremely tired, have to go take a nap.
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:24.480
And I started writing, I said, I don't want sitting down at the at the table to work on my website to be associated with having to take a nap.
00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.639
So then that's when I really started thinking, oh, there is an association.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:43.280
Now when I sit down at my website, my um the dining room table to work on business stuff, there's no fatigue, which is so well, usual life fatigue, but it's so interesting how those why was there fatigue before, if you really think about the motivational triad?
00:40:45.920 --> 00:40:57.360
Why would you expend energy to work on your website when historically nothing happens after the business building block is over?
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:01.360
You haven't made any decisions that would help you move things along.
00:41:01.519 --> 00:41:08.880
So if your brain notices that if you sit here and nothing is no progress is going to be made, why would you sit there?
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:09.679
That's not efficient.
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:12.320
We're just gonna make you tired, you're gonna take a nap.
00:41:12.559 --> 00:41:13.679
That's much more efficient.
00:41:15.679 --> 00:41:20.719
Does that explain any of the yeah, yeah.
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:38.480
I I can clearly see how um I think I was asking about behavior, and did we simplify the decision-making process which would make it easier than to work on the website?
00:41:39.119 --> 00:41:53.119
And you kind of went through each of the parts of the laws of behavior, and I think you've explained how you can have the same cue but change that association.
00:41:53.280 --> 00:42:06.400
Uh, and I wanted to chime in there because you know, you use the medium article, uh, the the cue might be I'm I'm stuck at this certain point, and then I typically associate that with YouTube.
00:42:07.280 --> 00:42:14.320
Um, and I was thinking, yeah, same cue, but what I could do is borrow a page from my client Jane.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:22.880
Um, and and for me, the key is to interrupt right here at the queue and write it down and just write out my thought.
00:42:23.119 --> 00:42:24.400
I'm stuck.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:27.119
This is hard, this could even be boring.
00:42:27.280 --> 00:42:29.679
That comes up in my, for some reason, my mind a lot.
00:42:29.760 --> 00:42:32.239
And I wondered this is just a general aside.
00:42:34.159 --> 00:42:38.719
Are people not dealing well with boredom in life?
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:46.239
And that's why we're seeking relief or dopamine from things like YouTube and social media, just an aside there.
00:42:46.400 --> 00:42:49.119
I don't think I'm the only one who's doing this.
00:42:49.440 --> 00:43:07.760
Um, but so at the queue, my craving when I seek relief is typically YouTube, but instead, if I take a beat and write down, I'm feeling stuck, I might be able to be bored.
00:43:08.079 --> 00:43:09.119
This is hard.
00:43:09.280 --> 00:43:11.599
This is the key here, this phrase, this is hard.
00:43:11.679 --> 00:43:13.519
Because I think it all comes down to this is hard.
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:19.119
And then to borrow from Jane's words, I can do hard things, and that gives me a sense of pride.
00:43:19.199 --> 00:43:39.599
And I think that is a different type of reward that would allow me to create a new type of association that would allow me not to go to YouTube anymore, but to continue on the project is that association with I can do hard things.
00:43:39.840 --> 00:43:43.199
So I appreciate you letting me work through that.
00:43:43.760 --> 00:43:48.960
May I offer what you just said also that I think is really interesting, just to kind of really connect dots for people.
00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:49.840
Yeah.
00:43:50.239 --> 00:43:55.440
So if you think about procrastination as a lack of um action towards the thing, yeah.
00:43:55.920 --> 00:45:30.159
And you think about these emotions or feelings, if you have a really strong craving the craving is kind of an unusual name but craving is like it has is associated with the cue the cue is like let's say for the writing right but but the craving is like what do you want it to be associated what do you want the internal state change when you think of the writing right and so the emotion of pride for for me or that I'm getting from you or for Jane the sentence I can do hard things feeling let's say gives you that energy of pride it is an energizing emotion it is an energizing emotion and energy is what drives you to take action if you have an um um emotion like heart if it feels hard um well this is hard might not lead to boredom this is hard might lead to a different feeling when you think about the feeling is it energizing or actually does it feel heavy and does it actually keep you not moving does it create more inertia right that's just another way for people to really think about that that that so much of procrastination really is has that energetic component procrastination often in includes like you don't you're not using that energy to actually do the action but how can you create an emotion you know that actually does move you toward that action and for you pride seems to be one of those things.
00:45:30.559 --> 00:46:29.679
Yeah and I realize that I've been kind of mixing my models I asked you about the four laws of behavior and then I ended up in the model but but but you know because I kind of went Q and then to thought and feeling but um you know the cue of getting stuck and then the um craving of desiring some sort of relief typically leading to a response of doing YouTube uh if I change that wait wait wait wait let's finish that really quickly I think it's really important so you went to the first three reward would be I guess some sort of I would say dopamine perhaps well it would the reward would be it would whatever the reward is from YouTube to get relief from the feeling that's created because you thought this is hard the reward actually has to satisfy the craving so the if the craving is you want relief from that thing.
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:57.840
Yeah it is relief it is relief then is the reward and yeah what we what don't the reason why it's so important is because that is going to be that is the thing that is going to keep reinforcing and so when you talk about the pattern interrupt it's really good to see the whole pattern of Q craving response reward play out and then for us to know that anything that's changing is if we want anything to change then we have to have a different reward something that feels more rewarding than that.
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:25.599
So you'll have a different craving reward combination to to so the can the craving be the same because I'm seeking relief from the uh being stuck having writer's block and so the you're seeking relief from the discomfort what what is that discomfort that you're feeling for writer's block right that this is frustrating.
00:47:26.320 --> 00:48:32.559
So the feeling of frustration so you're seeking relief from the feeling of that frustration inside your body okay got it right and so I'm trying to understand in the new pattern the new habit pattern that I'm trying to create the cue is the same I face writer's block and then I'm trying to create a different craving well what I'm trying to understand am I trying to create a different craving am I still seeking relief when I say I can do hard things do you see what I'm following I'm trying to understand I do and this is yeah I do and this is so fascinating um and I feel like this might be several conversations long but the first thing I might say is um you can absolutely have a craving of relief yeah or even absence for me what I deeply desired was the absence or relief from procrastinating or the absence of all of the energy that I spend procrastinating I wanted to actually do the thing I wanted to give myself the experience.
00:48:32.639 --> 00:48:56.320
That was the deep craving so when I talked to my daughter about like how this played I was like do you think it was an emotion that you wanted to do this thing or do you feel like it was a deep deep desire to have the absence of the usual emotions that created it and she said oh definitely the absence that can be like that could be a deep craving the relief is like a relief from the same usual pattern that you always follow.
00:48:56.559 --> 00:48:57.360
Do you see what I'm saying?
00:48:57.679 --> 00:49:20.159
I see okay yeah and I and I see how that works for you and I'm trying to apply it to me I wonder if the craving is if the outcome the re the the behavior is actually writing the thing right we know that it's not progress then the craving uh which we understand is the motivation or desire is I can do hard things.
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:22.559
It's well it's an internal state change.
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:22.960
Right.
00:49:23.119 --> 00:49:36.719
This is the emotional component remember that um before James Clear um he borrowed Charles Duhig's model which was only three steps right and it was it was the the the cue and then the routine what you do and then the reward and James Clear said there is definitely an emotional component.
00:49:36.800 --> 00:49:47.840
So the craving is like this deep desire to have that emotional inner whatever the internal state change is and I think it's I can do the hard thing like that that to me is emotional state change.
00:49:48.079 --> 00:49:58.400
Got it okay so that creates that that's the crave that's the desire right because that's also the that's also the T line right I think those I've always come I've always thought craving was the TF in the model.
00:49:58.639 --> 00:50:04.000
I think you I think you might be right it's like the energy because it is that emotional state change got it got it that makes sense.
00:50:04.320 --> 00:50:15.599
Yeah that makes sense right because the C is the Q is C circumstance in the model and then the craving to me is the motivation desire which comes from the thought feeling in the model.
00:50:15.840 --> 00:50:16.079
Okay.
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:39.920
And then everything else mirrors right because the reward the response is the A line in the model right and then the reward is the result in the model yes well no I don't think I I don't I don't necessarily I don't I see what you're saying and also it's a um they track and they they to me they're a little bit different but I see what you're saying.
00:50:41.199 --> 00:51:11.280
Because the reward reinforces I guess the so the reward becomes associated with the Q and I remember once some time ago I said when you design a habit really well the Q becomes the reward yeah and so when you talk about like the for you what I might say is if you have writer's block and I and again we can always question if that actually is a true C, right?
00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:58.639
If you're talking about the model but if you have writer's block then the response in the the four the four the four um part of the habit loop yeah yeah well I was just thinking is it confusing that we're I'm kind of mixing but the response wouldn't just be I'm writing it still takes cognitive energy what are you writing what you know do you have it maybe that's part of what you do is if you don't part of the response might be if I don't know what to write I'm going to um decide on the actual topic or if I don't know what I'm going to write I'm going to spend this is part of your response line I'm going to open a blank Google Doc and just brain dump everything that I think think this article should be about.
00:51:58.719 --> 00:52:10.800
So then you have something so instead of just like the word writing you would have very specific things that require zero cognitive energy um to do when you're faced with the R line.
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:36.079
The reason then the reward would be that I can do hard things look I stay engaged with the task I'm not jumping away from it and then the reward becomes yes I can do hard things your your behavior of staying with it because you've broken down the response because it's actual things that you can do without thinking I can do hard things I did stay with it.
00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:50.000
And then the the cue which is your article becomes associated with um the reward or the reward becomes associated with the cue which basically makes it next time you get excited to do your medium article.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:53:02.960
It doesn't mean that you're not going to have difficulties but at least this time when you have difficulties you've made the response so specific and doesn't require brain power to think of what does that mean when I'm here that you will want to keep doing it and you stay instead of going to YouTube.
00:53:03.519 --> 00:53:07.440
It becomes actually a sequence that you do like Pavlov's dogs.
00:53:07.679 --> 00:53:30.800
This is very this is this can be more challenging than I'm saying it but actually if you look at it that way if you're going to train this new habit you're not gonna say Q, think of my medium article, but then have the thought I this is really hard um and then go to YouTube you're going to do Q, my medium article have the thought this might be really hard.
00:53:31.199 --> 00:53:52.400
But then the the thought that you think right next to it which might be the response part of your response is I can do hard things and it has an energy of pride and then you open you have this all written now you open your laptop you stay on your Google Doc and if you don't know what to write you have this list of things that you're going to do so that you start knowing what to write and then that's the sequence that you follow and then you say this is the reward.
00:53:53.519 --> 00:54:03.280
I'm going to make an statement that you might not agree with but then I realize you can't disagree with it because I the statement starts off with my favorite.
00:54:04.639 --> 00:54:04.960
Yes.
00:54:05.199 --> 00:54:41.920
And you've kind of mentioned this a couple of times so I'm gonna tell you what I heard very specifically because my favorite law is number three which is make it simpler and in the two examples you gave me both in your website when you broke things down from website you know I'm waving my hands in the air to very specific questions in which you could solve you are at least what I believe is that third law making it simpler for yourself to carry out the A line and the model right the actions and then in my example you just gave me you said open up a Google Doc, have all these ideas right you're again simplifying things.
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:47.199
So it's very frictionless it's very it's much easier to perform the A line.
00:54:47.360 --> 00:55:00.559
Yes and and and so that's the five minute rule in procrastination right just try for you know a minute to make and then I think another thing is just find whatever is the easiest part of what you're gonna do and just do that first.
00:55:00.960 --> 00:56:12.880
So you cannot dispute that my favorite my favorite law is is is make it make it simpler law three which is how I started this conversation but we went into a really really good really good conversation and I wanted to kind of close loose ends at this point because I think um we did a I enjoyed the conversation with um the model the habits I do do hope it's clear for the audience I did mention beforehand maybe showing uh frameworks of how the motivational triad works with the four habits or the uh the uh laws of behavioral change from atomic habits and the model I think you did a great job of helping me understand a lot of different things the nuances here right we didn't go into why a reward is different than than the result but I love that idea that eventually the reward becomes the cue that inspires me because how am I going to get better at writing is when I have that association developed where I'm gonna therefore be excited to write this article because the reward is I can do hard things, right?
00:56:13.119 --> 00:56:15.760
So that is very very exciting for me.
00:56:16.320 --> 00:56:23.440
Is there any you told me not to ask this question is there any last things you want to ask because I probably do need to take off at this point.
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:35.679
Yes but I'll let you know um that I I do feel it's energizing uh to you and that's the main thing procrastination doesn't have to be this big heavy thing we don't need to spend a lot of time in shame or anything like that.
00:56:35.920 --> 00:56:49.920
It's just really the idea is where do we want to experience our life differently and how can we use um various principles to really help ourselves understand our behavior and then turn that into making those areas moving and flowing again.
00:56:50.079 --> 00:56:51.039
So I love what you said.
00:56:51.280 --> 00:56:55.039
And we ended up with flowy perfectly flowing it is life flow.
00:56:55.920 --> 00:56:58.320
All right until next time Carrie thank you.
00:56:58.639 --> 00:56:59.280
Thank you so much.
00:56:59.440 --> 00:57:01.360
Have a great day thank you very much for tuning in.
00:57:01.519 --> 00:57:03.119
Okay take care bye bye bye