APAC Executive Search: Talent & AI

WEBVTT
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:08.160
Welcome to the Power Within, the podcast that uncovers the real stories and strategies behind leadership and personal growth.
00:00:08.160 --> 00:00:24.879
I keep power, and in each episode, I sit down with inspiring individuals who face challenges, built resilience, and discovered what it takes to lead with impact.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:31.839
Through their journeys, we'll explore the mindsets and tools that drive meaningful success.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:38.719
If you're ready to grow, lead, and unlock your true potential, you're in the right place.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:48.240
Ollie Richard is the managing partner for Page Executive in Asia Pacific with a career spanning more than two decades in recruitment and executive search.
00:00:48.240 --> 00:00:57.039
He's built and led businesses in multiple markets, helping companies find the leaders who not only fit the role but shape the future.
00:00:57.039 --> 00:01:13.840
What does it take to lead one of the world's top executive search firms across the most dynamic, diverse, and complex regions on the planet?
00:01:13.840 --> 00:01:22.640
Asia Pacific is home to booming economies, disruptive industries, and fast-changing leadership needs.
00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:31.280
At the heart of it, guiding CEOs, boards, and organizations through transformation is today's guest.
00:01:31.280 --> 00:01:45.439
Today we'll uncover what he's learned about leadership in this rapidly changing region, the qualities of standout executives, and how his own journey has shaped the way he leads at the top of his field.
00:01:45.439 --> 00:01:56.000
Ollie, so what first drew you into executive search and how did those early years shape your view of leadership and of talent?
00:01:56.319 --> 00:01:58.480
You'll speak to a lot of people in executive search.
00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:02.079
Very few of us went to university thinking we'll end up in executive search.
00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:06.000
It's one of those industries you you sort of sometimes fall into.
00:02:06.000 --> 00:02:10.080
So I started my career with Nike on their sort of management programme.
00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:17.120
Two years on a on a shop floor was what was panned out for me to learn the products and learn the customers and the traditional management route.
00:02:17.120 --> 00:02:23.680
I had a friend of mine who was working for a boutique search firm in London who said to me, Look, come and have a chat with this guy.
00:02:23.680 --> 00:02:24.879
He's quite interesting.
00:02:24.879 --> 00:02:26.400
So I said, Why not?
00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:31.840
I had to spend about two days putting um trainers on ladies, realizing that maybe it wasn't my forte.
00:02:32.319 --> 00:02:34.319
Um that sounds interesting.
00:02:35.280 --> 00:02:36.400
That's how the job was sold.
00:02:36.400 --> 00:02:40.800
Um and despite the gift of the gab, I realised that was two years of doing that was probably going to test me.
00:02:40.800 --> 00:02:43.280
So I met this guy and I arrived at his office.
00:02:43.280 --> 00:02:46.319
Uh, and outside of his office was an AC Cobra.
00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.000
And I was like, okay, that's cool.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:02:48.879
It's a bit different.
00:02:48.879 --> 00:02:56.560
Um he was the ex-global head of HR for a big tech uh systems company, and he'd pivoted into executive search.
00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:07.439
I had a conversation with him, I was 22 at the time, he was looking for for a researcher, and he was interesting because he brought in two gentlemen from the military who'd never worked in the corporate world at all.
00:03:07.439 --> 00:03:11.759
And I was quite taken by by these individuals as someone who's not from the military.
00:03:11.759 --> 00:03:15.439
There's quite a compelling side to that in terms of what they what they bring.
00:03:15.439 --> 00:03:17.680
And so, long story short, that was my first.
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:21.680
I I moved from the Nike thing into it was all about the AC Cobra.
00:03:21.680 --> 00:03:24.080
It was basically the AC Cobra and a little bit of the military side.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:37.280
But um that was my first step into it, and that was interesting because I got to see the trappings of success in the corporate world 15, 20 years down the line, because what these guys specialized in was partner-level search for the big four.
00:03:37.280 --> 00:03:41.919
Um so you're talking £800,000 plus sort of salaries.
00:03:41.919 --> 00:04:01.919
My job was to research the market and and um be a support person, but the the military side of things was all around preparation, all around executive presence and building trust, which got me into that industry and thinking, well, it's all around people and relationships with some commercial savvy as well.
00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:07.680
In hindsight, it was a bit of a boot camp, it was it was tough, and I learned an awful lot in those first sort of 12 months.
00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:12.639
That then I was always keen to go internationally, and obviously working for a small firm was not going to enable that.
00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:14.719
Even at that young age, you had that thought.
00:04:14.719 --> 00:04:17.839
I did, because I I'd grown up between Paris and London.
00:04:17.839 --> 00:04:26.160
So my my dad had had an international career, and so we always had this sort of I always had this view that I I saw my career going into sort of the the international sphere.
00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.839
So the guy who owned this company knew the CEO of Page Group.
00:04:29.839 --> 00:04:32.720
I think the CEO of Page Group was I think buying his house.
00:04:32.720 --> 00:04:33.839
It's all very tenuous.
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:34.160
Wow.
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:46.480
So that's how I got introduced to the CEO of of Michael Page at the time in London, who were well known for their meritocracy-based approach that it didn't matter how old you were, there was going to be given opportunities.
00:04:46.480 --> 00:04:51.519
And obviously the time were looking to grow globally, so it was it was a good fit.
00:04:51.519 --> 00:04:55.120
And I I was in London for four years with that.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.439
It was I think if you've seen the film Boiler Room, it's not too far off to the restaurant.
00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:00.160
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:05:00.160 --> 00:05:03.600
You know, the other sort of always be closing, the uh work hard, play hard.
00:05:03.600 --> 00:05:03.920
Yeah, yeah.
00:05:03.920 --> 00:05:07.120
At the time it was eight in the morning to eight at uh in the evening.
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:15.680
And if you've if you stood up at 7:30 to to start going home, you were told you were having a half day, and it was all but it was good fun and um a lot of carrots as as well.
00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.759
So that was a fast and steep learning curve.
00:05:18.160 --> 00:05:19.839
So you're older than you look then?
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:20.800
No, no, no.
00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:24.879
I am slightly older than I look.
00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:30.319
I hope I put my hand up for international moves, as I said, and Singapore came up uh as an option.
00:05:30.319 --> 00:05:32.000
I was 27 at the time.
00:05:32.399 --> 00:05:34.240
In practical terms, how did that work?
00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:41.600
We say too blithely, not oh, put my hand up, but in the corporate world, how does that actually manifan out?
00:05:41.600 --> 00:05:42.959
How does it manifest itself?
00:05:43.279 --> 00:05:43.920
It's a good question.
00:05:43.920 --> 00:05:45.759
And that's to this day, it's a challenge.
00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:50.959
So we used to put it in a you have an annual review and you'd put, you know, what are your aspirations, international move.
00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:57.360
Your boss would look at that and go, Well, I'll ignore that because if you're if you're billing a lot of money, then you're gonna he's clearly not to give a go.
00:05:57.360 --> 00:06:00.399
Oh, great news to HR, Ollie would like to leave my team.
00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:11.439
It was really through conversations with my my managing director at the time who was keen to sort of support the the growth of that, and he was obviously involved in the strategy of globalization of the business too.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:17.759
So I was asked to have a look at Singapore, and I was I I came over here to have a look.
00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:22.720
Whilst I was here, the head of Asia Pacific said, Would you mind just going back via Shanghai?
00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:24.399
So back to London via Shanghai.
00:06:24.399 --> 00:06:29.680
We had a license to operate in China, but we hadn't done at that time much with it as a foreign company.
00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:31.759
And I said, Sure, I'm I'm on a trip.
00:06:31.759 --> 00:06:35.600
Uh it was my first business trip, so it was all paid for, and I was like, I was enjoying it.
00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:40.560
So it sounds very cheesy, but as soon as I sort of got into the city, I was like, wow, this is this is different.
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:43.519
The buzz and the energy, and also it was a blank sheet of paper.
00:06:43.759 --> 00:06:45.040
What year was that, Ollie?
00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:46.079
2006.
00:06:46.079 --> 00:06:46.399
Right.
00:06:46.399 --> 00:07:01.360
So I had the option of either coming to Singapore and adding 10, 15% to somebody else's previous work, or I had the option to go to Shanghai as a 27, 28-year-old at the time to be part of a new leadership team going into China for the first time, and that was quite compelling for me.
00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.480
Compelling, exciting, no fear?
00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:06.000
Not really fear at the time.
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:09.759
I bear in mind, I come out of London, I was in London, I was quite confident in myself.
00:07:09.759 --> 00:07:16.560
I'd been telling everybody, listen, I wanted an international career, so I'd kind of positioned myself to go, well, yeah, yeah, I can't really back down now.
00:07:16.560 --> 00:07:21.439
Very supportive parents who, as I said, had had business overseas as well.
00:07:21.439 --> 00:07:22.560
So that that helped.
00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:25.839
There was part of me thinking, what's the worst can happen if you go home?
00:07:25.839 --> 00:07:29.199
And at that age, that that that was not so much to lose at that age, right?
00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:30.240
I didn't think so.
00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:31.519
I was up for the adventure.
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:37.040
I I knew that couldn't see myself getting the tube to work every day for the next 15-20 years in in London.
00:07:37.040 --> 00:07:39.120
That was not gonna to win it for me.
00:07:39.120 --> 00:07:48.800
So the other part was the the couple of people who'd moved to China, so that the head of China and and one of the the leadership team who I was joining were really enthused.
00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:51.839
They'd been there three, four months and had had sort of seen it.
00:07:51.839 --> 00:07:53.360
So everything was in front of you.
00:07:53.360 --> 00:07:57.920
And in the business we're in, it's it's all about access.
00:07:57.920 --> 00:08:11.360
And you could see very quickly that multinationals were beginning to look at China, and then I mean the world's come a long way since, but at that time China was kind of the um the wild east, and and nobody really knew peak opening.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:18.160
I went there in 2008, so I recognised that time and had exactly the same feeling on land, and it's like, oh wow, right?
00:08:18.160 --> 00:08:20.800
You know, you feel it immediately in Shanghai then.
00:08:21.040 --> 00:08:25.519
Many would ask me why are you not going to Singapore or Hong Kong, which at the time was the traditional route for an expat.
00:08:25.519 --> 00:08:30.800
And that's what made me want to go to Shanghai was well, I don't want to follow the masses, otherwise I'd stay in London.
00:08:30.800 --> 00:08:34.559
So that was my first sort of big move in my career, I would say.
00:08:34.559 --> 00:08:37.039
And that was the sliding doors moment that people allude to.
00:08:37.039 --> 00:08:39.600
If if I hadn't done that, what would my career look like?
00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:40.320
I don't know.
00:08:40.320 --> 00:08:49.279
And look I clearly you give up things in in the UK, you you miss the sort of the family, the friends, the the live sport, and all the other things which you get very used to.
00:08:49.279 --> 00:09:02.879
But when you went when I went back to London sort of six months after for a wedding and realized that I was talking things that people were genuinely interested to hear about because it was all new and and different, and that that appealed to me as well and my personality.
00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:09.120
Oh, it sounds fascinating, and I wish I I've had this conversation with you before.
00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.840
I wish that I'd entered into executive search myself 15, 20 years ago.
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:22.559
It's just an area that always fascinated me because it feels like you need to have such a comprehensive skill set in there.
00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:25.919
It's like a mini business environment completely, right?
00:09:25.919 --> 00:09:29.759
But at the core of that is people relationships, yeah.
00:09:29.759 --> 00:09:38.720
Managing across Asia Pacific, though, now as you do, that means navigating different cultures, economies, and expectations.
00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:46.080
How have you adapted and adopted your leadership style to succeed across such diversity?
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:49.519
It's probably the favourite part of the job is the diversity.
00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:57.600
I learned very quickly when I moved to Shanghai, actually, the uh piece of advice I was given was leave London behind.
00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:04.000
But people are not interested as you think as interested as you think about your war stories from London and lean into what's ahead.
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:06.080
Don't don't keep leaning into what's behind you.
00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:12.399
It's an easy thing to do because your comfort zone, particularly if you're in a very different environment, is to look at what do I know and how do I impart that knowledge.
00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:28.159
And I stop you there, because I think that's one of the strongest pieces of advice I've heard of anyone sitting in that chair to lean into and forward and not on resting on your laurels, talking about your past successes and war stories, they're meaningless, right?
00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:30.480
So the audience you're talking to, yeah, that's what I mean.
00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.039
100%.
00:10:31.039 --> 00:10:34.720
You've you've already got a point of difference, obviously, because you're in a in a different country.
00:10:34.720 --> 00:10:37.679
And that was really useful because it made me listen.
00:10:37.679 --> 00:10:38.320
Okay.
00:10:38.320 --> 00:10:45.840
And that's as we know, in in any business context, the biggest skill, one of the hardest skills is to listen, especially if you've been brought into a country to drive growth.
00:10:45.840 --> 00:10:48.559
So the expectation is on you to just make things happen.
00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:50.399
The reality is it's not you.
00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.360
It's it's you're you're creating an a framework to enable people.
00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:54.960
The environment 100%.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:11:00.559
And so when you look at across Asia Pacific, that's the one piece of advice I give to my leadership now.
00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:19.679
Is and yeah, there's a mixture of expats and and people from from the region, and it's an easy thing to say, it's not an easy thing to do necessarily consistently, but that has enabled me to to really enjoy the uh the diversity of the region because you're then learning you know, every time you go to a different country, you're learning a different perspective often.
00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:31.600
And we've we've uh driven a localization um uh policy across most of our businesses for the last 10, 15, 20 years now, which is the sustainable way of of doing it.
00:11:31.600 --> 00:11:37.840
And the world has moved on, the days of of expats coming in for two years, rotating uh have gone.
00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.120
Uh the days of the the large expat benefits packages have gone.
00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:42.080
They are long gone.
00:11:42.080 --> 00:11:44.639
Long gone, um which wish I'd known that at the time.
00:11:44.639 --> 00:11:48.960
But um so and I'm in the industry, so I should have known that at the time.
00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:52.559
I think this, you know, you you always feel like a guest in a country.
00:11:52.559 --> 00:12:01.120
So and I travel extensively, and and that's always something which if you step off the plane, you realise you you don't know everything and you're there to learn as much from good attitude to have.
00:12:01.120 --> 00:12:02.960
I'm a guest and I'm here to learn, right?
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:05.919
And you learn more with this and these than you ever do with this.
00:12:06.320 --> 00:12:07.759
You do, and obviously you're a chameleon.
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:20.240
So when I'm talking to stakeholders, I know everything, and I am the knowledge, but that knowledge has been gained from a multitude of people, and that empowerment doesn't necessarily always come in a multinational company.
00:12:20.240 --> 00:12:31.120
Whether it's China, India, parts of Southeast Asia, you know, people join multinational companies for for the training, for the fact they have a multinational company on their CV, they don't necessarily expect empowerment.
00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:35.200
Uh they expect to be told what to do and and a little bit of a point and shoot mentality.
00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:43.120
Especially in in China, and I recall seeing the reaction when I said, Oh, I don't know what do you think.
00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:48.320
They're shocked at first because they expect you to come in with all the answers.
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.120
Once you get past that point, it's brilliant.
00:12:51.120 --> 00:12:54.639
But initially, they're expecting you to point and shoot, as you put it.
00:12:55.120 --> 00:13:03.519
They are, and and this is where learning about a new culture and country is important first, because yes, it's clearly much more hierarchical than than maybe where we've come from.
00:13:03.519 --> 00:13:05.519
And so, as a result, that's the default.
00:13:05.519 --> 00:13:10.159
It's not it's not a lack of confidence, it's just that's how you've been brought into the corporate world.
00:13:10.159 --> 00:13:14.879
Um sense of humour, patience all come into this as well, because you you don't get the results quickly.
00:13:14.879 --> 00:13:21.600
And we'd say to to companies a lot, this is not a quick win, whichever part of Asia you're you're opening up, and it's it's not going to be a quick win.
00:13:21.600 --> 00:13:26.559
And it's mainly because the business culture in Asia, as as we know, is really relationship-driven.
00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:28.879
Absolutely, it's as much about who you know as anything else.
00:13:28.879 --> 00:13:29.360
Absolutely.
00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:37.200
Having said that, though, uh they are far more open to new relationships than I think you would be in London, for example.
00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.519
Your network is your network.
00:13:39.519 --> 00:13:42.399
Here, your network is the beginning of it, and it branches out.
00:13:42.399 --> 00:13:47.120
We had this discussion just before how you get to meet people, they're open to that.
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.279
But you've got to know some to start, and then it grows and grows.
00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:57.919
And and this is the interest when you meet other expats, it's often about you're talking about who you've met, who you who you know.
00:13:57.919 --> 00:14:01.440
If you're in a a more mature market, it's a different conversation.
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:09.039
Uh and this is I think what keeps people in the region is that access to to people is is good because fundamentally you're in the same boat.
00:14:09.039 --> 00:14:10.320
You're all in it together.
00:14:10.320 --> 00:14:13.679
In a way, and it that's that's quite a compelling piece as well.
00:14:13.679 --> 00:14:18.480
So the varieties, but yeah, APAC as as we all know is is incredibly diverse.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:22.639
Um, I was in Australia two weeks ago, mature market.
00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:26.879
I think fair to say work-life balance is a very prominent part of culture.
00:14:26.879 --> 00:14:29.600
I think it's gone too far the wrong way in Australia.
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:34.320
I think many would agree with you, um, uh, particularly those running businesses in Australia.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:34.879
Exactly.
00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:39.519
Um and that's also interesting when you're in in Asia running Australia or overseeing Australia.
00:14:39.519 --> 00:14:48.000
In Asia, it's yeah, I was in China and 90% of our workforce uh in China are back in the office five days a week and wanted it.
00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:48.320
Yeah.
00:14:48.320 --> 00:14:53.759
That is very different in in some other parts of the region where getting to work is a lot easier.
00:14:53.759 --> 00:14:55.840
It's a very interesting region.
00:14:55.840 --> 00:14:57.360
It's a hard region to leave.
00:14:57.360 --> 00:14:58.639
And I know you've sort of come back.
00:14:58.639 --> 00:14:59.840
I've tried and I'm back.
00:14:59.840 --> 00:15:02.080
And I'm staying long term now.
00:15:02.080 --> 00:15:07.919
The nature of what I do, clearly, I talk to a lot of people who are at that either pivot point or planning ahead.
00:15:07.919 --> 00:15:13.840
It's very rarely someone says to me, Oli, can you can you help me find a role in the US or back in Europe or the UK?
00:15:13.840 --> 00:15:16.480
Maybe another country, another exciting adventure.
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:17.919
With an APAC, absolutely.
00:15:17.919 --> 00:15:21.039
And I think it's the diversity, particularly if you've got to a regional level.
00:15:21.039 --> 00:15:24.960
It's and I was talking to someone the other day who said, I've been offered a role back in the UK.
00:15:24.960 --> 00:15:27.840
I'll be you know traveling to Leeds, Birmingham, Manchester.
00:15:27.840 --> 00:15:30.159
Currently, I'm traveling to Sydney, Mumbai, Tokyo.
00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:32.240
And I was like, Well, I think you've answered your question.
00:15:32.559 --> 00:15:33.039
There you go.
00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:34.240
End the conversation.
00:15:34.240 --> 00:15:43.919
Interestingly, when I was coming here, I was called on holiday by my boss's boss, as it was, but my boss had told me, You're gonna get a call.
00:15:43.919 --> 00:15:48.720
He's interested in sending you to Asia Pacific, but I was supposed to not know this.
00:15:48.720 --> 00:15:52.480
So then he said, When you come back from holiday, I'd like to have a chat with you about your future.
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:56.320
And you don't want your boss's boss saying that, but I knew, so I was comfortable.
00:15:56.320 --> 00:16:02.000
But he was famous, infamous, for having his little pocket notes for his meetings.
00:16:02.000 --> 00:16:05.919
And as he's going through there, one of them he said, APAC experience.
00:16:05.919 --> 00:16:08.080
Oh, yes, you've lived and worked in Australia.
00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:09.519
No more questions.
00:16:09.519 --> 00:16:15.039
I knew absolutely nothing about the rest of Asia, but from his perspective, he's American.
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:20.000
You've lived in Australia, you're an APAC expert, so I came in under false pretences.
00:16:20.000 --> 00:16:22.320
This is why you should use a headhunter case.
00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.879
No, I'm glad I didn't then got in.
00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:26.080
Probably that's a fair point.
00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:28.240
No, no, no, absolutely right.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:38.399
So, what shifts are you seeing, though, in what boards and CEOs now look for in senior leaders compared to a decade or two decades ago?
00:16:38.399 --> 00:16:40.639
It's shifted, but how are you seeing that?
00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:46.559
It has well, it's clearly shifted, uh, and there's been some major events which have probably accelerated that shift.
00:16:46.559 --> 00:17:00.639
I you don't have a meeting these days without talking about AI, and we are seeing a shift at board level where there's a leaning into AI rather than a fear of or a wait and see that that's moved now to we need to embrace it that's happened in the last two years, though, right?
00:17:00.639 --> 00:17:06.319
It has, and it's it's accelerating further, and you'll see you'll see the Nvidia piece and everything else.
00:17:06.319 --> 00:17:10.640
But as a result, we are talking to clients a lot around how do we embrace this.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:18.960
And it's not necessarily somebody learning a new skill, it's not always as easy as a CEO or a chief operating officer to suddenly sort of pivot and go, right, I'm an AI expert.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:24.799
So we're seeing a lot of this in the succession planning side, so that the future leadership, they're the ones being positioned.
00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:30.880
And probably the role or skill set in highest demand at the moment across the region is transformation experience.
00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:41.279
So people who've been through that have proven that they can take a company through that transition from what through that digital transformation piece, those roles are very prominent.
00:17:41.279 --> 00:17:47.519
Um, but the other side, which is more on the soil, I suppose the HR softer side is the agility of the workforce.
00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:52.799
The days of people like myself working in companies for 20 25 years are a rarer and rarer.
00:17:52.799 --> 00:17:58.160
I remember being in in Indonesia and someone asked me, Well, why do I not have ambition?
00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:00.799
Because I'd I'd stayed in the same company for so long.
00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:06.160
I was well, the mindset has has shifted that variety is everything as as we know with that demographic.
00:18:06.160 --> 00:18:13.839
So the leadership of now and moving forward is that that ability to be agile, which then correlates to the how do you have an EVP?
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:24.799
And we're seeing a lot of questions at sort of uh assessment level around designing and implementing an EVP for a business, coupled then with succession planning.
00:18:24.799 --> 00:18:26.960
So a lot more of a people focus.
00:18:26.960 --> 00:18:36.559
So people in a high growth market, maybe 10 years ago, in in where you know everything was moving forward, particularly in Asia, which was emerging, you could get away with it, it papered over the cracks.
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:37.920
You cannot do that now.
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:44.720
And there's a so many sort of unknowns that companies are having to pivot pretty quickly, and that is not easy as a leader.
00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:54.000
So surrounding yourself with the right people has become even more prominent, and that diversity piece is also shifted.
00:18:54.000 --> 00:18:55.680
It does go in stages.
00:18:55.680 --> 00:19:04.559
I mean, two years ago, post-COVID, DNI, sustainability, ESG were hot topics, and there were there were thousands of podcasts on those topics.
00:19:04.559 --> 00:19:07.039
Suddenly it's anti-D D and I extremely.
00:19:07.039 --> 00:19:08.640
And your culture's changed again.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:12.640
And you've got people who are putting in place five-year programs to position your company.
00:19:12.640 --> 00:19:14.319
And what do you do with those now?
00:19:14.319 --> 00:19:17.279
Because you can't necessarily take it away because then you're you're pin quite far.
00:19:17.759 --> 00:19:20.400
The other thing, it's it's not just at that board level.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:27.680
We'll go back to China, we always revert to China, but there, if you haven't promoted a high potential in two years, they're gone.
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:30.720
They're literally, they they make themselves agile.
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:33.279
You're not providing the pathway for me.
00:19:33.279 --> 00:19:38.720
I'm not going to sit here and have my resume look old and dated that I stuck with this company.
00:19:38.720 --> 00:19:40.720
And you lose talent, right?
00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.480
It's a really interesting point because we we look at this a lot in terms of the leadership of the future.
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:50.400
If you're in a rush in your career to move up, and we understand and we're the same, yeah, people get promoted three times in four years, yeah.
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:54.400
And then they get to a leadership level, which as we know challenges them.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:19:59.759
It does, because you need experience, you need war stories, you you need to know what good looks like, but also to go through.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:00.960
Through some challenges.
00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:03.680
If you've been promoted that many times, you haven't been through many challenges.
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:04.720
You don't have resilience.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:05.279
Correct.
00:20:05.279 --> 00:20:06.480
You've ridden a market.
00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:10.559
And particularly prominent in multinational companies where business comes to you very often.
00:20:10.559 --> 00:20:12.319
That is the challenge for companies right now.
00:20:12.319 --> 00:20:21.279
Is how do we, if we continue to localize, because of what we said earlier about no longer necessarily bringing expats in, and there's reasons for that as well to do with employment permits and other facts.
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:23.920
I don't think it's as black and white as that.
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:37.839
I think it's less so, but post-COVID, I've seen that there is a call again for some expats, but for very specific activities, actions, and experiences, not broad any longer.
00:20:37.839 --> 00:20:44.000
You you bring something very specific that's missing in this region, this country, this team, or whatever.
00:20:44.319 --> 00:20:45.599
Yes, and and that that's true.
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:50.960
And particularly in areas like um technology and sort of more niche markets, as you say.
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:54.799
And this is, I think it's a very interesting dynamic to see where it goes.
00:20:54.799 --> 00:21:06.400
Because what we are seeing is a lot of training development companies who are now using that vacuum in terms of a leadership who's got to sort of mid-management and then that step up to senior leadership.
00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:13.119
If you've all if you've got to mid-management in the space of five, six years, it's a tough thing to then suddenly go up.
00:21:13.119 --> 00:21:18.720
And a lot of that's around communication, stakeholder management, you know, different perspective, different skill sets.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:23.839
So uh you're right, there are there are expats clearly in in the workforce who have their roles.
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:24.400
It's interesting.
00:21:24.400 --> 00:21:29.920
Company countries like Indonesia have really moved quite far further than people realise around that localization.
00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:36.720
I've lost sight of Indonesia and been reading up recently, has really come along in leaps and bounds in the last few years.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:47.279
It was force because you it was very hard to get uh You were based there for a while, I was in Jakarta for eight years, and 80% of the the hiring we did roughly was Indonesian talent.
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.000
That we did a lot of work to bring Indonesians back from overseas.
00:21:50.000 --> 00:21:50.480
Oh, okay.
00:21:50.480 --> 00:22:01.200
Mainly because it was very hard to get visas for for expats or get visas which gave you more than two years, which was hard to bring people from other countries with families to say you could be moving again in two years' time.
00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:05.920
Um so it kind of prompted a real push on localisation, which is not a bad thing.
00:22:05.920 --> 00:22:13.599
Indonesia has its other dynamics, but in terms of the workforce, there are it's a you know the the leadership which has come through is now becoming more and more prominent.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:19.519
Don't get me wrong, Thailand, Malaysia, others have also got localisation.
00:22:19.519 --> 00:22:27.680
Singapore is the one which was interesting because Singapore, as we know, is famous for being very expat, very much a centre of excellence for the region and a hub.
00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:28.640
I think it's well known.
00:22:28.640 --> 00:22:31.599
Employment permits have got harder to acquire now.
00:22:31.599 --> 00:22:47.920
And some of that is clearly to protect the Singaporean workforce to try and bring Singaporean talent through to those more senior levels, which is then creating challenges for companies as well in terms of being very used to bringing in experienced um talent and now having to go, well, we now need to invest in the grassroots.
00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:57.279
I came here 17 years ago, and six months in, this is unheard of now, I had a letter inviting me to apply for permanent residency.
00:22:57.279 --> 00:23:00.559
I don't know anyone who gets anything like that anymore.
00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:04.319
I was on a very good salary, commanding a big workforce, etc.
00:23:04.319 --> 00:23:09.440
And I remember throwing it in the bin and telling my secretary, I'm not staying here for long.
00:23:09.440 --> 00:23:11.519
And look, here I am.
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:20.960
So I am a PR now, but I was a dependent on my wife as a PR, and my wife and my two children have become Singaporeans, so we're kind of staying here.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:28.160
But those who want to stay here now, who've been here for a while and are applying for PR, is really not easy any longer.
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:35.200
It's not, and there's been an interesting trend because previously it was very hard to get somebody from Singapore to move to a Bangkok or a Jakarta.
00:23:35.200 --> 00:23:35.920
Really hard.
00:23:35.920 --> 00:23:38.000
They go to Shanghai, but nowhere else.
00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:38.640
100%.
00:23:38.640 --> 00:23:46.160
And and it's maybe Hong Kong, but it's now you've got Dubai and Riyadh are a genuine option for people.
00:23:46.160 --> 00:23:48.960
Not necessarily their first option, but it is an option.
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:59.039
And we are seeing people now moving to the emerging markets or or the the Southeast Asian markets, not in big droves, but it is beginning to become something which isn't seen as why have they done that?
00:23:59.039 --> 00:23:59.920
It's actually seen as well.
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:01.200
Well, that's interesting.
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:07.519
Can a can a business build its regional hub from Bangkok, for example, is a question now being asked.
00:24:07.519 --> 00:24:14.400
Kuala Lumpur is is really positioned as a global shared service center hub, and that then attracts a lot of interest from a talent perspective as well.
00:24:14.400 --> 00:24:22.400
So why would you have your your senior leadership team in Singapore but your group support heads in in KL is a question we get asked quite a lot.
00:24:22.400 --> 00:24:24.240
So I think it's an interesting time for Singapore.
00:24:24.240 --> 00:24:32.000
Singapore is still very much where the default decisions tend to be made, but it's it's uh there's lots of options for it as well, right?
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:38.720
You know, it's interconnectivity, language, uh an easy place to live, etc.
00:24:38.720 --> 00:24:39.119
etc.
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:41.119
School initiative, tax benefit.
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:43.119
He didn't want to say that, but it's right up there, right?
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:47.920
It is right up there from a personal perspective and from a company or corporate perspective.
00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:50.319
It's pretty hard to fight against.
00:24:50.319 --> 00:24:53.039
And we had a short conversation before coming in here.
00:24:53.039 --> 00:24:58.640
Singapore had been draining everything away from Hong Kong, but that tide seems to be turning a little bit.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:07.839
I was in Hong Kong earlier this week, and it's it seems to have got its mojo back, maybe not to the same extent as previous days, but certainly a lot more than the last 12-18 months.
00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:13.279
Um, a real energy, there's a lot of IPO activity, which is obviously where Hong Kong is is positioned well.
00:25:13.279 --> 00:25:17.119
A lot of Chinese investment, you know, Hong Kong used to be the gateway into China.
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:17.440
Of course.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:20.480
It's now the you know, a lot of investment coming out through Hong Kong from China.
00:25:20.480 --> 00:25:23.440
The de facto China investment platform, right?
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.000
It's being proactive in terms of attracting its talent back.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:35.920
I mean, Hong Kong lost quite a lot of its its talent in the last couple of years, but it's being it's keen to get it back, and there's some good reasons to you know to to look at Hong Kong again in a in a positive light.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:45.599
There's a real demand for talent in this part of the world, particularly leadership talent, and there's very hard to know what where those positions exist.
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:49.359
So if you are in America right now, how do you know what opportunities lie in Asia?
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:50.319
It's really difficult.
00:25:50.319 --> 00:25:51.119
No, I agree.
00:25:51.119 --> 00:25:53.200
And that's so that's where you come in, though.
00:25:53.200 --> 00:25:55.519
Well, that that wasn't my pitch, but it is it is part of it.
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:58.160
Well, it is to bridge that that gap.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:03.039
Um and we we continually been communicating with with colleagues in the US.
00:26:03.039 --> 00:26:12.079
What has slowed down is people from this side of the world wanting to move to the US, which was also the other dynamic, was do two, three years in China and then move over to another part of the world.
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:13.599
That's certainly slowed down.
00:26:13.599 --> 00:26:18.799
We're seeing now people wanting to move within Asia rather than further further afield.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:24.799
There are obviously some factors which are at play right now around getting visas in the US and other parts of it as well.
00:26:24.799 --> 00:26:34.160
But I think if you spoke to most parents, this is a bit stereotyping, Ivy League or elsewhere, they'd still go Ivy League for education.
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:35.920
So 100% still has the pool.
00:26:35.920 --> 00:26:46.000
And it's costly to do that, and the best families think quite literally, I'm gonna buy the best for my children, but they still have to be up to the mark to be accepted in the Ivy League, right?
00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:50.079
It's not entirely different if you're working for a you know a Korean firm, a Japanese firm.
00:26:50.079 --> 00:26:54.079
Yeah, it's hard to get right to the top of those companies unless you're from the country.
00:26:54.079 --> 00:26:54.400
Yeah.
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:56.000
So there is that rigidity as well.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:27:02.000
It's I think the American side of things is they'll come in and do the what they want to do with the way they want to do it.
00:27:02.000 --> 00:27:05.440
It's not entirely dissimilar with other other countries as well, to be fair.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:12.480
But again, this is back to our point that this is why Asia Pack is is a real interesting and it's a great microcosm of the world.
00:27:12.559 --> 00:27:17.359
It's the most diverse part of the world that I know, and you can't get bored here.
00:27:17.359 --> 00:27:19.599
It's impossible to get bored in Asia.
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:24.240
Right, and that that's exactly what I say to people is like you you try trying to replicating this anywhere else.
00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:34.160
And if you're running Southeast Asia, for example, you've got six countries there, all with their own dynamics, all with their own business cultures, everything, all fiercely independent of each other.
00:27:34.160 --> 00:27:40.720
Multinationals, us included, tend to lump Southeast Asia as one region and we report the results as Southeast Asia.
00:27:40.720 --> 00:27:45.279
Reality is that's six very different countries with huge potential growth.
00:27:45.279 --> 00:27:46.319
That's very hard to find.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:53.839
I mean, Latin America potentially, but it's becoming you go around the region and and you see more and more people who are really enthused by what they're saying.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:27:54.880
It is not easy.
00:27:54.880 --> 00:27:59.519
And that's what people soon realize that you have to learn the country, you have to learn.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:01.359
It is much harder now.
00:28:01.359 --> 00:28:04.079
The time you spoke about 2006, 2008.
00:28:04.079 --> 00:28:13.200
I'm gonna be honest, I think you could come in with a modicum of decent talent and some leadership skills and do extremely well in China.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:16.319
But now it's a tough environment in China.
00:28:16.319 --> 00:28:19.759
They are living in the real world, competing everywhere.
00:28:19.759 --> 00:28:23.119
The growth, the double-digit growth, is long gone.
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:25.599
It will never return no matter what the government does.
00:28:25.599 --> 00:28:27.359
It's a different environment.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:36.240
I think I've seen people being found out as well who didn't have that full skill set, and now in this tough environment, are finding it difficult.
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:49.200
So the exodus out of China, driven by COVID, of course, some of that also is a lack of commitment, a lack of resilience, a lack of skill.
00:28:49.200 --> 00:28:50.480
They can't hack it.
00:28:50.880 --> 00:28:56.799
No, no, I'll I'll throw India into the mix because India is an interesting one because different, exactly, so different, hugely different.
00:28:56.799 --> 00:29:06.480
And this is the region, you know, you've got Japan, which is has its own ecosystem, and then you've got India, and then somewhere in between, you've got China, Hong Kong, Singapore, and Australia, so and Southeast Asia.
00:29:06.480 --> 00:29:10.000
So, but India is proven very difficult to attract expat talent.
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:12.400
It's the country who actually would welcome expat talent.
00:29:12.400 --> 00:29:16.799
And I always think when you know, I went to China, what was it 15, 20 years ago?
00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:21.440
If I was 10 years younger, I would go to Mumbai and build my career.
00:29:21.440 --> 00:29:23.200
It's exactly the same thing that happened in China.
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:27.200
People who went to China at that stage, you know, China grew, they their careers grew with it.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:31.359
Because they, yes, you'd had the adventurous spirit, entrepreneurial spirit to do it.
00:29:31.359 --> 00:29:38.640
India's has its own eco, it's not China, it's it's a very different thing, but it's it's growing at a rate of knots, and there's career opportunities there.
00:29:38.640 --> 00:29:45.279
It is very hard to attract senior talent to to India compared to pretty much everywhere else in in this region.
00:29:45.279 --> 00:29:54.559
I mean, we we will find it easier to attract talent to Tokyo, for example, which is not an easy business culture to learn quickly, as you know, and yet there's a pull factor to go to Japan.
00:29:54.559 --> 00:29:54.960
I know.
00:29:54.960 --> 00:30:08.880
Which we're saying, well, look, Mumbai's growing at this rate, or India's growing at this rate, it needs all the leadership in terms of how you build layers, sustainable business growth, uh, access to the senior end, communication out of India in terms of what expectation looks like.
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.160
Um, India's been one of our top growing businesses in the last five seconds.
00:30:12.480 --> 00:30:19.119
They've also, on the flip side, lost a lot of the most senior talent from India to especially to America.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:23.039
You have a look at a lot of the top leaders in America that they are Indian.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:24.799
And this is the the the interesting thing.
00:30:24.799 --> 00:30:29.200
I mean, when you're there, you go a lot of people you talk to, Ollie, can you help me get a job in elsewhere?
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:29.440
Yeah.
00:30:29.440 --> 00:30:32.640
Um, but you've got the opportunities here.
00:30:32.799 --> 00:30:32.960
Yeah.
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:36.160
So that's a that's a really interesting way where the the market's fantastic.
00:30:36.640 --> 00:30:38.240
Interesting, you said Mumbai.
00:30:38.240 --> 00:30:44.640
Out of choice for me, it would be Bangalore or Delhi for different reasons, but it depends what industry you're in, right?
00:30:44.880 --> 00:30:48.720
In the business I run is is a new team we've set up in or setting up in Bangalore.
00:30:48.720 --> 00:30:51.359
That that's got a lot, a lot happening there as well.
00:30:51.359 --> 00:30:52.400
Nice city as well.
00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:53.599
That's yeah, very livable.
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:56.799
Yeah, and the the weather is really a nice, nice pattern there.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:30:59.039
Not the same as uh Delhi, that's for sure.
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.400
Let's talk about resilience.
00:31:00.400 --> 00:31:01.680
We've mentioned it a few times.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:08.640
In in your experience, what separates those who thrive through these uncertain times and those who struggle?
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:14.000
It's a simple answer to a complex piece, but um having a plan uh is is important.
00:31:14.000 --> 00:31:27.599
And I'll give an example during during COVID, we made a decision as a business to grow, where a lot of companies were either in limbo or inertia or just waiting to see how it panned, and understandably, because it was uh you know something no one had ever been through before.
00:31:27.599 --> 00:31:29.599
We made the decision to to to grow.
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:38.960
So we we grew by around a thousand uh feeling globally, with the view that when we came out of the pandemic, which at some point you were going to, we'd be well positioned to hit that growth curve.
00:31:38.960 --> 00:31:40.480
Others would be underinvested.
00:31:40.480 --> 00:31:41.039
100%.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:47.359
And that that enabled us to have the right conversations with the right people, to stay resilient, to stay patient.
00:31:47.359 --> 00:31:49.200
Um, it was a very simple message.
00:31:49.200 --> 00:31:49.680
We're growing.
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.960
So it's a mindset thing.
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:52.000
It's a mindset thing.
00:31:52.000 --> 00:31:54.559
And it's it's also having perspective, is the other piece.
00:31:54.559 --> 00:32:06.559
And I was doing a workshop with the Singapore Cancer Society a few weeks ago, individuals who've obviously gone through a pretty horrendous experience and are now coming back into the workforce and how to position themselves in the workforce.
00:32:06.559 --> 00:32:11.759
And the word we used, which I said, what what separates you more than anything else from a soft skill perspective?
00:32:11.759 --> 00:32:13.359
And it's it's clearly resilience.
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:18.400
That if you're a if you're hiring somebody and you're comparing between three people, I know where I would go into.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:19.359
It's a no-brainer, right?
00:32:19.359 --> 00:32:20.319
Well, the proof is there.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:21.599
It is the perspective as well.
00:32:21.599 --> 00:32:28.319
So resilience comes in many forms, but it's that bold approach, but also keeping things in perspective, it's easier said than done, clearly.
00:32:28.559 --> 00:32:32.000
How's your own leadership style evolved over your career?
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:38.240
And what lessons stand out as turning points or sliding door moments or whatever you want to call them?
00:32:38.240 --> 00:32:40.559
See, I'm usually the other side of this conversation.
00:32:40.559 --> 00:32:42.240
So I'm enjoying this.
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:43.759
And I don't mean I should be.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:45.119
Yeah, it's it is phases.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:49.359
I I think I came out of London thinking I knew everything as a 26, 27 year old.
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:49.759
You should.
00:32:49.759 --> 00:33:00.079
Yeah, you are part of your environment, but uh it is a little bit survival of the fittest, and your your willpower, work ethic, force of personality sort of got got things moving.
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:14.240
As we've touched on, you know, the China experience really, really was a big moment in my career to realise I didn't know everything, and and I had a pretty binary approach to leap approach to leadership, which I then evolved, and empowerment and trust became quite a big part of that.
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:17.920
I joined a business in London which already had a culture, so I didn't need to work on that.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.480
I joined a business in China which had four people, you had to create and I created a culture and I loved it.
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:23.440
And that that was the main part.
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:33.759
It is, and it's fun, and people forget fun's a big part of being in the in the you know, you live once, so you want to try and enjoy it in the business world.
00:33:33.759 --> 00:33:40.880
So that culture, and then building cultures in different environments, different businesses, and in different stages of evolution has been a lot of the time I've spent.
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:52.720
I moved from China to Malaysia and then Indonesia, and the business cultures were very different again, but the same thing maintained that if you can build a culture which enables people to feel part of the business, however big a multinational you are.
00:33:53.119 --> 00:34:00.160
But when you first moved, could I be so bold as to suggest it was a little bit of a humbling experience in China then?
00:34:00.480 --> 00:34:06.960
I was surrounded by people who are much more experienced than me, both in outside of my business, the interactions I was having.
00:34:06.960 --> 00:34:08.480
So that that that makes you grow up quick.
00:34:08.480 --> 00:34:10.480
You're also away from the safety net.
00:34:10.480 --> 00:34:10.719
Yes.
00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:14.559
So you're having to make decisions for yourself, which are is all part of growing up, is the truth.
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:23.199
But I I think from a sliding doors moment, it's actually uh I was asked to become the chairman of the British Chamber of Commerce right at the beginning of COVID.
00:34:23.199 --> 00:34:55.519
So I'd had a you know successful time in China, riding the China growth, and then set up a business in Indonesia, which I had got noticed, and and I was asked to join the the British Chamber, and then two years later asked to become the chairman, which was 16 president directors or or CEOs of multinational businesses from the the Rolls-Royces of this world to Unilevers and far, far bigger organisations than what I was working for, all going through COVID, all trying to work out how to navigate their workforce during that time, how to position their business during that time, following blueprints from overseas.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:34:59.840
But the reality was Indonesia was was not particularly well equipped to deal with COVID.
00:34:59.840 --> 00:35:07.119
So that was a a baptism of fire for me in terms of leadership, because all eyes looked at me to have the answers, which I clearly wasn't going to have.
00:35:07.440 --> 00:35:13.280
So ironically, outside your mainstream work is where you found some leadership experience to grow.
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:13.920
It was.
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:20.480
And it's about to the spot I I've always had this view that I I never say no to opportunities because that's how I learn, and that that's for me the same thing.
00:35:20.639 --> 00:35:22.480
You know the difference I look in on there.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:34.159
That one is very much leadership by consent, which is what you try to experience within your job, but oftentimes the stripes you wear in your sleeve go before you.
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:42.719
But if you were working with a chamber of commerce or any other non-profit, you have to have the consent of the members and the people following you.
00:35:42.719 --> 00:35:44.800
So it's a different style of leadership required.
00:35:45.039 --> 00:35:45.679
It was very different.
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:54.320
Also, I'd spend most of my time managing down because I was coming into countries to set them up, and suddenly I was surrounded by people 100% who were much more experienced than me.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:36:07.519
And it gave me a lot of confidence because um my methods that I'd had and had worked, and then I evolved and you know I was brought in two or three people around me who who were my sort of the inner circle, I suppose, of that, which uh and they were hugely useful.
00:36:07.519 --> 00:36:13.280
And you realise that actually, you know, if if you are honest, people will reciprocate that if you for sure.
00:36:13.440 --> 00:36:16.400
It doesn't matter what culture that that is.
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:20.960
We've we've talked and talked around Asia Pacific and all the countries, etc.
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:24.719
But at the heart of everything is human people.
00:36:24.719 --> 00:36:28.800
At the heart of recruitment is people's lives and careers.
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:36.639
How do you balance business objectives with the human impact of executive placements?
00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:37.679
It's a good question.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:41.280
A question I get asked a lot, um, both internally and and externally.
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:46.960
And there is um there is a reputation with the recruitment industry around are humans just a number.
00:36:46.960 --> 00:36:50.719
Customer service is the biggest differentiator for a recruitment firm.
00:36:50.719 --> 00:36:53.199
Fundamentally, we we all offer a pretty similar service.
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.320
It's the customer service which comes from the human aspect.
00:36:56.320 --> 00:37:05.199
It's also the piece which is easiest to forget when you're in a results-driven environment and results are needed every two weeks in terms of reports and and everything else like that.
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:08.719
I fully understand the question and it's it's it's not unfounded.
00:37:08.719 --> 00:37:12.800
I think you find the more senior end of the market, it becomes a little bit different.
00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:13.760
Why?
00:37:13.760 --> 00:37:16.079
Because you're dealing with less people, is the truth.
00:37:16.079 --> 00:37:22.800
And relationships by then you you're usually 15-20 years into your career, so you actually become more qualitative by that point.
00:37:22.800 --> 00:37:36.239
It does, but it only takes one or two examples where if you've worked with a finance manager earlier in their career and you know you haven't come back to them on something, you haven't given them feedback from an interview, or you've you haven't phoned them when you said you were going to phone them.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:41.599
People remember these things a lot more sometimes than they remember who actually found them, who helped them find the job.
00:37:42.880 --> 00:37:43.920
But they'll hold a grudge.
00:37:44.159 --> 00:37:44.480
Oh, they don't.
00:37:44.480 --> 00:37:46.960
I've had conversations with people who say, Well, why won't you use us?
00:37:46.960 --> 00:37:54.480
Well, you know, 10 years ago, yeah, you gave me poor service as a company, and it's not not me, it's the company, and they're now a CFO, and and they've you know their careers grow up.
00:37:54.480 --> 00:38:01.119
And this is what we continue to remind people that people start here, but they they will move up a ladder and they will have decision-making responsibility.
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:04.719
Yeah, the one piece which is really disrupting this is AI.
00:38:04.719 --> 00:38:19.199
So AI is giving our fee earners or our consultants time because a lot of the admins now taken care of by AI, which enables them to have more time in market, which enables you to have better quality conversations, but also follow-up.
00:38:19.199 --> 00:38:25.840
AI is has really sort of enabled that to push us forward in terms of customer service, not just ourselves, but that's where AI has been really useful.
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:30.480
And I get asked a lot, is AI going to take over the recruitment industry?
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:31.679
It wasn't long ago.
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:34.320
We were asked, is LinkedIn gonna take over the recruitment industry?
00:38:34.719 --> 00:38:35.039
Of course.
00:38:35.039 --> 00:38:36.079
It became your best tool.
00:38:36.400 --> 00:38:37.199
It became our best tool.
00:38:37.199 --> 00:38:39.039
And I think this is where AI will fit as well.
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:46.079
It's humans, is is the people, but always in Asia as Asia Pacific, Asia particularly, as we know, relationships are king.
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.960
And you mentioned Guanxi, and there's there's a terminology in every country you go to for the relationship part.
00:38:50.960 --> 00:38:58.880
And we keep reminding people that who work for us we're we're paying you to network, which is the biggest thing that you can do in Asia.
00:38:58.880 --> 00:39:02.559
But make sure you don't take that for granted because it's easy to get into bad habits.
00:39:02.559 --> 00:39:07.920
But um, that's yeah, the the biggest disruptor to our business is poor customer service.
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:13.280
Uh AI is the biggest enabler to bring that customer service a little bit more front and center.
00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:17.199
We had a conversation a few months ago around executive coaching, which I do.
00:39:17.199 --> 00:39:19.840
Um, will AI take over coaching?
00:39:19.840 --> 00:39:29.360
No, but if you're if you're not using uh AI as a coach, uh then you will be overtaken by a coach who is using AI.
00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:34.239
It's this human AI interaction point that's going to be critical to everything.
00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:34.960
A hundred percent.
00:39:34.960 --> 00:39:44.880
And we we talked to obviously a lot of our conversations are with VPs of HR or chief people officers, and AI has it's two sides to it because suddenly you're seeing CVs looking fantastic.
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:45.440
Yes.
00:39:45.440 --> 00:39:47.599
Um, how do you filter through that?
00:39:47.599 --> 00:39:54.480
Or you're getting people with very well-prepared answers in in interviews, and as you say, it's bringing the human side to it as well.
00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:04.960
When you look back on your uh career, great career, what's uh The power within, which is what we're called, you've discovered that has enabled your success.
00:40:05.280 --> 00:40:09.519
I got this actually pretty early in my life from my dad, which was about remember your surname.
00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.679
And this was mainly in the sports piece when I was going to play competitive sports.
00:40:13.679 --> 00:40:18.719
It was always remember your surname, which was always something I always ran onto the field thinking.
00:40:18.719 --> 00:40:22.400
Over time that's evolved in my head in terms of what that means.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:28.960
And he left school early and built his career and became, you know, ultimately became a global CEO of a of a major organisation.
00:40:28.960 --> 00:40:33.840
So he had credibility in terms of you listened to advice.
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:39.280
And it was all very much grounded around family, which I know is a very common answer in these things.
00:40:39.280 --> 00:40:42.559
But I always sort of keep that in my mind.
00:40:42.559 --> 00:40:44.320
It's around being yourself.
00:40:44.320 --> 00:40:47.920
It's very hard to imitate and have a successful career.
00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:48.239
Yeah.
00:40:48.239 --> 00:40:50.880
That was the piece which I continue to talk to.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:54.320
And this is not something I say to other people because clearly it doesn't mean anything.
00:40:54.320 --> 00:40:59.920
But for me, it's it's that sort of desire to keep make the family proud.
00:40:59.920 --> 00:41:02.000
Professional pride's part of that, clearly.
00:41:02.000 --> 00:41:11.039
But that's something which has taken from the sports field to the business context and has enabled for me, has grounded me whenever I've gone off to new adventures and new challenges.
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:17.679
I've lived in five or six different countries and and built, you know, I've always been building businesses rather than inheriting businesses.
00:41:17.679 --> 00:41:22.800
And you know, that that can have its moments where you think I could do this a little bit easier at some point.
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:29.679
You know, that family pride, the fact that I'm doing something which, yes, there's part probably part of me wants to make my my dad proud that that's that's true.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:36.480
It is something which I know I've got two brothers who are equally in in the corporate world, mainly in the sports industry, and doing very well.
00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:41.199
And the three of us will say the same thing that they would have if you had them on your podcast, so they'd say the same thing.
00:41:41.199 --> 00:41:43.440
So it is a bit of a family mantra.
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:55.599
Right, to other people looking out, if you could give one piece of advice to someone aspiring to reach senior leadership in today's world, assume at the moment they're at the bottom or the middle, what would it be?
00:41:56.000 --> 00:41:56.880
I can give a lot of advice.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.840
This is what I do for a living.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:59.760
The one piece I would say is be unmissable.
00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:04.239
So take on those different challenges, stand out from the crowd, be be memorable.
00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:05.039
That's what people look for.
00:42:05.039 --> 00:42:06.480
Volunteer as well.
00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:07.679
Go beyond.
00:42:07.679 --> 00:42:19.920
Uh I mean, there's lots of cliched things I could say, but it's that being unmissable for me is is the self-drive that I would say is is is important because that it is clearly competitive, but not everyone's willing to take on that extra challenge.
00:42:19.920 --> 00:42:21.679
So basically, take a risk.
00:42:21.679 --> 00:42:22.639
Don't say no.
00:42:22.639 --> 00:42:23.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:29.280
I followed the route when I was asked to move from Beijing to Jakarta, beyond so I didn't know much about Jakarta.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:30.239
Yeah, I didn't say no.
00:42:30.239 --> 00:42:32.239
When I was asked to move to Shanghai, I didn't say no.
00:42:32.239 --> 00:42:33.199
And it's the same year.
00:42:33.440 --> 00:42:40.239
Always reminded of the great South African golfer Gary Player, who said, you know, the harder I practice, the luckier I get.
00:42:40.239 --> 00:42:48.800
And if you keep practicing, keep putting yourself in the position, you seem lucky, but in reality, all you've done is taken the risk, take the opportunity, gone for it, right?
00:42:48.800 --> 00:42:50.800
And sometimes you have to learn on the fly.
00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:57.280
Yeah, I think to be fair to Gary Player doesn't lack self-esteem, which helps too, but the um neither does he lack skill.
00:42:57.280 --> 00:42:58.239
No, but this is true.
00:42:58.239 --> 00:43:02.320
And I think he just claims he was the top third best golfer in the world behind Jack and Tiger.
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:04.079
So I would say, you know, be unmissable.
00:43:04.079 --> 00:43:10.559
The other piece I would say, which is again very easy to say and hard to do, is always know the why in your people.
00:43:10.559 --> 00:43:17.519
Um it's it's not my term, obviously, it's a very well-known um expression, but it's an easy thing to forget, as I say.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:20.639
But when I'm sitting down with people, you know, their motivations change.
00:43:20.639 --> 00:43:24.960
So if you're aspiring to be a leader, knowing what motivates your people on a regular basis.
00:43:25.280 --> 00:43:28.239
And it might not be the same thing over a long period of time.
00:43:29.119 --> 00:43:29.679
The why changes.
00:43:29.679 --> 00:43:42.000
And don't rely on an appraisal once every six, twelve months to find out the why is the piece which I I have to remind myself as well when I'm moving you know walking into an office and sitting down with people, is it's not about the business, it's about the individual.
00:43:42.000 --> 00:43:42.880
So find out first.
00:43:43.199 --> 00:43:44.480
Ollie, fascinating.
00:43:44.480 --> 00:43:45.679
We could go on for hours here.
00:43:45.679 --> 00:43:47.360
I'm sure we will be on here.
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:49.119
Thank you very much for your time today.
00:43:49.119 --> 00:43:59.760
Really appreciate this overview of this region, your industry, and I don't think there's anyone listening to this podcast who won't be interested in career advice.
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:01.039
So thank you very much for your time.
00:44:01.039 --> 00:44:01.760
Thanks, Keith.
00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:02.800
Enjoyed it.