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Hello, I'm Professor Kate Bird and this is the Development Hub's The Power Shift Decolonising Development.
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Today we're talking to Silvester Kasozi from Light for the World, Uganda about the systematic approach they have implemented to decolonise the way they work as an organisation.
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Silvester speaks to us about the importance of involving all departments of an organisation in the approach to decolonisation especially driving change locally from their country offices.
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We discuss the challenges of putting a system in place that responds to the needs of an organisation as a whole.
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And we talk about putting a strategy in place to approach decolonisation in a multi layered way and interrogate the issue from different perspectives.
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Silvester speaks of his vision for the development and humanitarian space, which is founded on respect, equity, and where knowledge is valued regardless of its origin.
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Listen on for more, and don't forget to like and follow.
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Also, you may want to sign up to our newsletter at devhubuk.org for updates and resources on decolonisation.
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Listen on for more.
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Welcome to the Power Shift Decolonising Development, the podcast series seeking to bring together thinkers, practitioners, and activists to share ideas, inspire change, and identify tools for practical action.
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I'm Professor Kate Bird, a socio economist and director of the Development Hub.
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Today, unfortunately, my co host, Dr.
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Nompilo Ndlovu is unable to join us, but I'm very excited to be speaking with Silvester Kasozi, who is a humanitarian and development practitioner, a sociologist by training, and currently the country director of Light for the World Uganda, an organisation that works to spark lasting change for disability rights and eye health in sub Saharan Africa.
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He's also the co chair for the organisation's Decolonisation Working Group and disability inclusion enthusiast.
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For more on Silvester and his work and the work of his organisation, please click on the show notes below this episode where you can find out more.
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Silvester, can you tell our audience what led you and your organisation, Light of the World, to think about decolonisation?
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Thank you very much, Kate for that very good introduction of me.
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But most importantly, thanks for having me on this podcast.
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The reason I am very passionate about decolonisation goes back to the time that I was actually an expatriate, a period that almost lasted a little over 15 years.
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And during that period, of course, working in different countries in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, I experienced various and plenty forms of racism.
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Unfortunately, I didn't have a space within which to speak to somebody about it, or sort of detoxify myself from those experiences.
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So for me, coming to an organisation like Light for the World about three years ago, and one of the things I really found on the table at that time was an organisation diagnostic of what was called the DEI, a survey, but of course, with a specific component on racism, I was actually shocked that such a conversation about it could be had in an organisation.
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And I thought that this would be an opportunity for me to speak out, but also to help the organisation be different.
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At least do things differently from what I did experience.
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So, that's how I really got into it.
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And there was no question about it when I was asked to join in and support.
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But I also do think that, at the time that was done, actually, as an organisation, we were doing our strategy for the next, I think, about five or five years.
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That was around 2020, 2021.
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So it only made sense that that discussion was being had then because then it would definitely part of the strategy, but also now, it speaks a lot to what we have as our values as an organisation now without any strategy, which are basically respect, and I think we all agree.
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You can't be kind, you can't be caring if your personality perpetuates racism or colonialism in one way or the other, then of course we do espouse accountability and that speaks a lot to being transparent.
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We need to have conversations about, you know, what people feel about things that happen to them, things that are said to them.
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And in this case, things that they feel are bordering on or actually racist in nature, and then, of course, inclusion is a major part of our work, and I think you see a lot of our communications about inclusion of persons with disability, but we also know that inclusion is very, very broad.
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It's much more than disability.
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It's inclusion of women, inclusion of children.
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But you also can't talk about inclusion if you're racist, because racism by its own nature or colonialism is discriminating.
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So we really want to broaden our spectrum of inclusion.
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We needed to speak to the ills of colonialism.
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And then of course, lastly, the value of learning.
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I think you agree with me, Kate, that there is no apex to learning about any subject, more so colonialism that has been around for several years.
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So, we believe that we are on a learning trajectory, learning more about what colonialism has done, learning about what we can do to demystify stereotypes regarding the same subject, but also learning about what we can do to prevent what has probably happened several years ago.
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And probably going on now from manifesting within the work that we do as an organisation.
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Thank you, Silvester.
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It's interesting that you came to this work with Light for the World through thinking about DEI because I suppose when I think about DEI, I'm often thinking about HR in organisations and their recruitment and progression strategies, which tends to focus quite on the individual.
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And I think one of the things about thinking about decolonisation is that it takes much more of a historical and structural perspective.
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So I'm guessing with your work in the organisations, you've had to bring those kind of two elements together, which is in a way a much more kind of political action.
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And I wonder if that has been challenging for you individually or for you as an organisation to bring those two aspects together and to take more of a kind of systems wide political and historically embedded approach to thinking about equity.
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Yeah, thank you very much for that question.
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I think you cannot necessarily separate the two.
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I mean, it's not like one can work without the other, if you think about it, systems are created by people and it's the very same people can decide either to use them for their own good or for other reasons for which they are not really meant.
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But at the same time, it comes from what we feel as individuals.
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Based on what we feel, either we feel good about something or bad, that will get us to act about a system, you know, either to change it or to actually strengthen it.
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In my case, for example, talking about this issue, being one of the key people leading the discussions about it is therapy.
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I think being able to talk to people here and what people say, whether they like it or not, is very good for me as an individual.
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But the fact that I get therapeutic support from this then speaks to how I can actually support an organisation structure itself in such a way that it deals with these ills.
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And that's precisely why for us, we are taking more of a systemic approach because with a system, regardless of which individual really comes into an organisation, the system will stay, but the individuals will actually leave.
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But also if it is really systemised actions that are seeking to really address issues of racism and colonialism, then the impact can actually really be felt because, if there are actions that are put in place to address something, it also means there are actions that are in place if something is actually not done, but it also means that resources will have to be earmarked to be able to address issues that may actually arise.
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So I think a systemic approach is good, but it's very important.
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First, what we feel as individuals, because organisations are not just systems.
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Organisations are actually people and in any cases, people create the systems, implement the systems or actually do not, and by so doing, actually, sort of perpetuate things like colonial tendencies.
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Thank you, Silvester.
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Yes, I absolutely agree with you that an organisation can have beautiful protocols and policies, but unless people genuinely agree with them and implement them in a wholehearted way, then the procedures stay just that and they're not really living and breathing reforms.
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I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the reforms that Light of the World has already engaged in around decolonisation.
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It sounds to me as though it's an environment in which you're able to pursue these agendas, because it's interesting that you say you found these discussions to be healing discussions and therapeutic because I know many people of color in many international organisations around the world have not found that to be the case.
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They've actually come against hard barriers and it's actually been a very difficult experience for them.
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So I'd be very interested to hear more about Light of the World and the approaches that they've already taken on this agenda.
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That is very true, Kate, because, you know, some organisations indeed on the surface seem to be like doing something about it, but when you really get to the bottom of things, it's mere posturing.
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I'm just glad that real steps are being taken here.
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And like I said at the very beginning, at least as of the time I joined the organisation three years ago, there was a diagnostic taking place, some sort of an audit about the status quo and what that spoke to was actually the need to have, at the time, a DEI coordinator who would help us interrogate all the issues that had actually come through, several, and like I said, racism was just one part of many other things that really came out of that survey, and what he also helped us is, of course, to come up with sort of ideas that we would undertake, systems that would be put in place to be able to challenge or rather to manage the gaps that had been identified.
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Then in our case, we realised that for decolonisation to be taken seriously, there was the need to have co-chairs for the discourse.
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With my supervisor, who at the time was the international director of programs, Jess who you actually met in this in the Skill Share course.
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She reached out to me and another colleague, both from Africa to join her to get the discussion going.
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I must say it wasn't a very easy one for me, but like I said, I think I got the realisation that this would be a journey that would be healing, and that's exactly what has happened.
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So we joined together, but then we also realised as co-chairs, we would not be able to bring about the change that we wanted alone.
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We needed people to talk to us, to give us information to critique what we were doing.
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So as a result, we created a working group.
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It's an online working group, a Teams one where whoever wants to join the discussion on decolonisation joins.
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In that, we share videos, we share articles about issues to do with racism or colonisation that sort of spark discussions.
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And by so doing, of course, we will critique ourselves and ask ourselves what we can do or what we could have done differently.
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Or maybe we could actually have done the same ourselves.
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And then, of course, one of the other actions we undertook is to try and do as much as possible simultaneous translations for documents, for meetings and all that, because we were working currently about 10 countries, only offices in four and all these countries have different languages.
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You know, we have French, we have Portuguese, bordering on Spanish, we have English, and of course, these countries have their own dialects as well.
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So, it was important for us to really get documentations into languages that those specific countries can understand.
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So that, you know, as much as possible, we are inclusive.
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Beyond that, we also, as an organisation, I found the trend going on, and I'm glad that it has been kept.
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All the country directors of our country offices are actually nationals of those countries, and I think, having worked in this space, the struggle there is of having nationals compared to people from the minority world, but in Light for the World, there's no question about it, and I think that is also going to be very important in contextualising and localising action regarding decolonisation.
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But this did not come, you know, from nowhere.
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Our board, the top most decision making body, 40 percent of the people there are of African descent, Blacks of African descent for that matter.
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And it only makes sense that if you have that done at the top-most body, then it's easy to cascade it down.
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Or you can actually be more intentional, and we also do have more or less the same at the international management team level.
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And then, so beyond that, we also started introductory sessions within the organisation about what we understand by colonisation and decolonisation and what direction as an organisation we want to take.
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So we've had discussions with different departments that includes HR, finance, programs, international management, and also within the comms, as you know, that's a very, very important department in disseminating information.
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And the beauty about Light for the World is that to be part of this global team, you don't have to be in Vienna, which is where really the organisation started.
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There are lots of people who are actually in Africa, but are part of this global support system and are not necessarily restricting their support to the countries where they are based.
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Then, of course, we've moved on again from that level to doing introductory sessions with country directors.
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Why this is very, very important is because, one, we need their support in driving the agenda at the senior management level.
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But also we need their support to localise actions because we shouldn't look at decolonisation actions as something outside, in our case, the African countries, we being ideally from the majority world on the receiving end, we need to have our own discourse amongst ourselves, because if we also don't look at the subtle ways in which as countries we perpetuate actions that are akin to racism, say within our ethnic identities and all that, we have no more authority to question what people from the outside actually do.
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Lastly, we are working on an e course that we are going to use as our induction tool for all staff getting into the organisation.
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Because, of course, it's not very easy getting all new staff all the time, putting them together, introducing them to the topic.
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And the thing about it, knowing that is also a sensitive question, if anybody's embarrassed or feels challenged by the topic, if they're doing an e course, they would have no one around them to make them feel embarrassed or, I mean, they will do their own introspection within this, and of course you cannot claim, you've not been able to watch it.
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It's going to be interactive, it's going to be inclusive, at least accessible for people with disability as well.
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So these are all the ways that we've been really working on.
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I mean, they may seem many, but we also know that we really, really have a long way to go as an organisation.
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Even then, we are just grateful that there has been that space to have the discussion and for us to be able to make the progress we have made to date.
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Thank you, Silvester.
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I mean, that's a very multi layered approach that you've taken, and I'm very interested to hear the 40 percent of your board being Black people of African origin, because I'm sure that having that leadership impacts on the integration of these ideas right from the top, and it's great to hear that you've got an e course providing induction for all your new staff as well, but it sounds as though you've got an attitude to learning and personal transformation integrated into thinking about everything from finance through to communications through to project design and so on.
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So it's very interesting.
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Thank you.
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I'd love to hear a little bit more about the challenges that you feel that you and the organisation have faced in seeking to decolonise the way that you work, because, what you've identified is a very positive narrative, you talked about healing and it sounds as though the process of change in Light for the World has been very smooth.
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I mean, it sounds as though it's an organisation that was very open to change, had structured itself where it was ready to embrace these ideas.
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But I know that decolonisation is a complicated thing because it's rooting out ideas that have been deeply internalised.
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We don't always recognise the way that we've internalised these ideas about racial hierarchies, around superiority and inferiority, Eurocentric thinking, and so on and so forth.
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So I'd be very interested to hear whether you and or the organisation have come against challenges and what you think the next steps are that you would like to take, both as an individual, but also as the organisation.
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You can be certain about that.
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Luckily for us, I think the challenges have been much fewer compared to the progress that we have made.
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But, you know, we're only on the journey, so we do not know what really, really lies ahead.
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I think chief of this is, when you work in a space like ours, humanitarian, development work, the outlook is that you're doing good, right?
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The fact that you're really helping out people who are in most need, in this situation, persons with disability, amongst others.
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But it is not enough to say you're doing good.
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There's a lot of other things that tag along everything else that we are doing.
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So just like you see with gender mainstreaming, you may be doing good, but probably if you are, I would say, gender blind, you'll be blind to the effects of what you're doing to either men and women or blind to what you're doing has as an effect on children.
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It could be a number of other facets.
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So, the feeling that we already doing good enough I think is something that we have to continue interrogating and challenging ourselves against.
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The other is the issue of decolonisation is a touchy one, in our case, depending on how you want to position yourself as an organisation, it could have an effect on how your donors view you.
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If they're very Eurocentric in nature, you could easily or likely lose their funding.
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So we also have to be careful as an organisation, how do we present ourselves.
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Do we want to do it in a very radical way?
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Do we want to do it in a transitional way and how do our major donors perceive it?
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And it's not just donors, also our partners because if you're talking about being decolonial, it probably means in our case as an organisation, giving more space for national organisations to, say, implement programs and us providing more of a system strengthening, sort of like support, which can as well be questioned because the question is.
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Who gives you the moral grounds to say, you know, people need support or need their capacity strengthened and is yours strengthened anyway.
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And then of course, you know, even for us as chairs, you are leading a discussion on a topic that you are also continuously learning about.
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You don't know how people view you depending on what you say or do.
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You believe you're doing, you're being well meaning, but probably you could step on a few toes.
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But the question is, if you don't do it, who will?
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Then, again, because it is touchy, when you have forums where people are ideally supposed to be speaking, and they all get quiet, you ask yourself, am I doing the right thing?
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Have I posted the right information?
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But then being a communicator, I have learned that silence in itself, just like in music, we have silent beats, is communication.
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The question is, if people are so quiet, then it means either they understand everything or probably have simply decided not to listen to anything.
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So I think there has to be a bit of a balance, so it can actually be a very, very lonely journey.
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But I think the belief in it's the right thing to be done, you have the backing of the management, then at least, even when things really get to rock bottom, you know you are doing the right thing.
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And another key thing, and I think this is a general challenge to, I guess, organisations, including even companies.
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How do you create a safe space for people to talk about the experiences of racism?
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It's one thing to evoke emotions, to evoke people, and they talk about this issue, but you know, it also evokes past experiences.
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What is that space they go to to sort of calm themselves down?
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Many times, of course, as organisations we say we do have safeguarding spaces.
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The question is, do these safeguarding spaces also accommodate issues that have to do with racism?
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But I think for me, really, the question, what we really need to do is continue the journey of awareness.
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And as you've seen a lot of the work that we have done is really creating that space where people can talk about it.
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Because when you talk about an issue, you come to terms with it.
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It's simply how advertising works.
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Even if a product wasn't very good, the more you throw it into your face, the more you actually come to accept it and realise that maybe I should actually try it out and see.
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And lastly, I think for us what we are looking forward to doing is to work out a strategy because I think a strategy we look at the issue in its breadth, in its entirety, interrogate it and come up with different or multilayered ways of actually approaching the discussion.
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So what this helps is that everybody at whatever level they are, whether at a country office, whether at an individual level, whether at a systemic level, you can be able to do an action that can help address issues to do with colonialism or racism for that matter.
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Thanks, Silvester.
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You mentioned strategy and I know from a previous conversation that Light for the World is going through a strategy process at the moment.
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I think from previous discussions you've said that decolonisation and anti racism is going to be part of that strategy.
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I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit more about that, and I'm also very interested to hear what kind of practical steps Light for the World is taking in operationalising a decolonised and anti racist approach?
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Do you have, for example, standard operating procedures or checklists or written rules or expectations about the way that project design is done, that risk assessments are done, that monitoring evaluation systems are designed and organised, that reporting systems, that funding.
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I mean, these are all touchy areas where colonial thinking can embed themselves, and unwittingly you can perpetuate power systems, which actually disempower local communities and local people who are at the cutting edge, the coal face of making change happen.
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So I'd very much like to hear a little bit about the strategy process and what practical things the organisation is doing to embed change.
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Yeah, definitely.
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Anti racism and decolonisation are a very, very integral part of our strategy development process.
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It's very much part of our transition process scenario development, because, you know, knowing where the world is going, these are issues that we need to reflect about and be ready for the implications.
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I think already some of these things are manifesting, looking at the politics of the day, and suddenly politics sucks us in as development and humanitarian practitioners.
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We've done, like I said, initially, we did a diagnostic that was, you know, much broader, and there was an element of decolonisation, but we've also done a mapping where we update actions that we have taken, but also actions that you probably need to take because every time you take an action, it actually opens your eyes to ideally something else that you could probably do.
00:26:11.146 --> 00:26:13.547
We do not have yet a robust work plan.
00:26:13.606 --> 00:26:20.707
And that is precisely why it's important one for us that this discussion is part of the strategy.
00:26:21.116 --> 00:26:26.682
But we also think at some point, maybe, again, that will very much depend on the leadership.
00:26:27.632 --> 00:26:43.951
Maybe we need to have a look at it as a different discussion, not that it'll be disconnected from our priorities as an organisation as embedded the strategy, but what that would help us is to look at it in a much more broader sense.
00:26:44.481 --> 00:26:50.747
Like I said, so that we can be able to know what are those elements that each of us can really pick out?
00:26:51.116 --> 00:27:16.797
I think you also know that organisation strategies are normally broader and they need to be sort of contextualised, brought down to the level in our case from international level to country office level, but also that needs to be reflected in programs, but also it should be reflected in your systems, whether operational or programs, and you cannot do that unless you have a proper assessment of the issue as an organisation.
00:27:16.817 --> 00:27:24.987
So, discussions are ongoing and we need to have this sort of agreement as an organisation, which direction we shall take.
00:27:25.497 --> 00:27:31.576
But at least for now, we are certain it's already part of our global organisation strategy.
00:27:31.576 --> 00:27:33.007
Thank you very much, Silvester.
00:27:33.686 --> 00:27:40.616
We've obviously spoken a lot previously and you've mentioned the Skill Share Programme in passing during this conversation.
00:27:41.086 --> 00:27:47.517
So you are part of cohort two of the Development Hub's Skill Share Programme on decolonising development.
00:27:48.307 --> 00:27:51.977
I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your experience.
00:27:51.977 --> 00:28:06.507
Yeah, honestly, coming into the training, I didn't know what really to expect, but of course, I was very much convinced by my supervisor then, of course, who we worked with and who ensured that the organisation supports me to get into the course.
00:28:06.836 --> 00:28:08.586
I think for me, a couple of things turned out.
00:28:08.606 --> 00:28:18.817
One was the vulnerability that was manifested during the course, the fact that people would get in there, really, really open up.
00:28:19.017 --> 00:28:20.836
I recall a specific situation.
00:28:20.836 --> 00:28:29.426
I think when one of the guests told us about an experience they went through and we had to go into our triads to speak about that, that really was deep.
00:28:29.477 --> 00:28:32.557
I wouldn't say there is anything more therapeutic than that.
00:28:32.606 --> 00:28:44.547
But I think also the experience of being in one place with people from very diverse backgrounds, some from very, very big agencies beyond NGOs, others from the private sector.
00:28:45.606 --> 00:28:51.747
It just helps you realise that, you know, this is not just something that I face in my own space.
00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:57.352
But it really helped me in my case to get perspectives of other people.
00:28:57.352 --> 00:29:04.047
I mean, the people that we have met, and talked about and with whom conversations are still ongoing.
00:29:04.047 --> 00:29:12.737
But you also know, and I think you saw that there were people who are still coming to terms with the whole discussion, probably even after their training, they are still struggling.
00:29:12.757 --> 00:29:13.616
And that is okay.
00:29:13.967 --> 00:29:29.156
I think it very much spoke to the journey that one really goes through to come into terms with the situation either as a perpetrator of colonialism or one who has been on the receiving end and then deciding, you know, what do I do about it.
00:29:29.156 --> 00:29:31.227
Did I go through it and then leave it at that?
00:29:31.707 --> 00:29:35.467
Or can I get out of this training different and do something about it?
00:29:35.497 --> 00:29:42.586
And I think it was very important that in the end, we ended up at that point where we were supposed to go back and do action planning.
00:29:42.596 --> 00:29:50.696
That was very important for me because my supervisor who I was working with was about to leave and I really had to take on the mantle.
00:29:51.307 --> 00:29:56.836
So I was definitely empowered going out of the training that, you know, I am not alone.
00:29:56.946 --> 00:29:59.356
There are people I can also go back to ask questions.
00:29:59.717 --> 00:30:05.257
It's a community that we can always go back to and raise questions and get support.
00:30:05.257 --> 00:30:15.376
And then, of course, like I said, we want to really go into developing a proper and robust action plan, but we are still looking at how do we do it.
00:30:15.457 --> 00:30:26.836
We first do like a broad and really robust assessment that will help us do a big plan where we can extract actions.
00:30:27.116 --> 00:30:32.767
That's not to say the things that we've been doing or planning to do small in their own way, we will stop doing.
00:30:32.767 --> 00:30:35.336
No, but we know it's a big topic.
00:30:36.122 --> 00:30:38.321
A topic that will be with us for a long time.
00:30:38.332 --> 00:30:40.221
Therefore, we need to look at the bigger picture.
00:30:40.902 --> 00:30:43.102
So, it was really eye opening.
00:30:43.142 --> 00:30:46.261
Of course, the guests with different approaches.
00:30:46.261 --> 00:31:08.182
I recall that specific one where we were looking at how you interrogate colonialism tenets in the different, for example, departments of an organisation, which is very important because in our case we had done introductions, but then we need to move away from people knowing what it is to saying, okay, can we have a reflection of our different dockets?
00:31:09.231 --> 00:31:10.162
How are we doing?
00:31:10.602 --> 00:31:16.471
And what can we do about the things that are glaringly colonial or racist for that matter.
00:31:18.771 --> 00:31:19.751
Thank you, Silvester.
00:31:19.771 --> 00:31:27.551
And I love the point that you made about creating connections with other people from across the development and humanitarian space.
00:31:27.551 --> 00:31:32.192
I know that you've kept in touch with some of the other people from Cohort Two.
00:31:32.192 --> 00:31:40.051
And in fact, Leslie Mudimu has actually been speaking with you and your colleagues as part of your strategy development process.
00:31:40.051 --> 00:31:50.172
I really like the fact that the program links people across different spaces and breaks down the kind of silos in the development world.
00:31:50.172 --> 00:31:51.261
So that's really lovely.
00:31:52.001 --> 00:31:58.721
I'd love to hear more about your vision for the development and humanitarian space.
00:31:58.771 --> 00:32:05.821
What do you think it will look like and feel like when there's been real progress around decolonisation?
00:32:05.842 --> 00:32:19.781
I think first and foremost, and this has a lot to do with our value as an organisation, I see a humanitarian development space that's more respectful.
00:32:20.602 --> 00:32:26.082
A space that is devoid of what I have come to call authorisation of different people.
00:32:26.082 --> 00:32:34.192
I think you really understand what I'm saying, you know, this situation where we have poor countries, underdeveloped, middle income and that sort of thing.
00:32:35.031 --> 00:32:41.102
Sometimes you ask yourself, what are the criteria for determining this classification?
00:32:41.241 --> 00:32:44.561
But I think for me, the point is, yeah, fine.
00:32:44.582 --> 00:32:46.281
I may be poor in your eyes.
00:32:46.906 --> 00:32:51.396
But have you asked me in my case, what poor means to me.
00:32:52.156 --> 00:32:55.007
So that bit of respect within the space.
00:32:55.767 --> 00:33:18.446
So the issue of the haves and the have nots, and that very much speaks to my next point, which is really, I look forward to a time when there is equity when our space, development humanitarian, name it, is more equitable, when we can be able to negotiate, to have equal terms of negotiating partnerships.
00:33:18.737 --> 00:33:21.076
We sit on the table and say, okay, this is the money we need.
00:33:21.116 --> 00:33:26.376
And we are going to use this money for this because this is where for us, the needs are.
00:33:26.946 --> 00:33:31.277
It very much goes also on to other things like determination of rights.
00:33:31.747 --> 00:33:33.477
Yes, we know we have a charter on rights.
00:33:34.001 --> 00:33:43.112
But what makes you think what you consider a right in your case is a right in my case, actually, what you consider right could be a violation of mine.
00:33:43.142 --> 00:33:53.001
And I know there are lots of discussions about some of these global topics, some of which actually are a violation of rights in our part of the world as a majority.
00:33:53.001 --> 00:34:02.731
So I look forward to that point also where we can be more inward looking when it comes to fundraising, there has been a deliberate creation of dependence.
00:34:03.392 --> 00:34:12.891
And I've seen, I mean, I've watched so many videos about this, but things that I've also experienced on funding, you know, of the West in this case, the majority world.
00:34:13.452 --> 00:34:15.922
But when you come back in our own communities, I'll tell you.
00:34:16.362 --> 00:34:19.152
There are lots of support systems that exist in our countries.
00:34:19.152 --> 00:34:26.882
For example, often, in fact, we don't have houses for all the people in my country where we take all people to be looked after.
00:34:27.371 --> 00:34:31.931
We have systems in which we can look after our own people.
00:34:32.291 --> 00:34:41.936
When you go to villages, people have mechanisms how they support each other when people die, they have mechanisms of how they support each other when they're going to have weddings.
00:34:42.387 --> 00:34:46.867
They have mechanisms where, you know, people support each other, when they are really in need.
00:34:47.226 --> 00:35:04.262
And my question has always been, if this works at those small elements at family level, clan level, community level, why can't it work at the level where you probably have a national organisation and it can actually do its own fundraising within a country?
00:35:04.931 --> 00:35:11.061
The amounts of money that people actually raise to support people for weddings are enormous.
00:35:11.552 --> 00:35:20.072
And if somebody actually found a way of tapping into these resources, to support, for example, national organisations, we would be way, way ahead.
00:35:20.121 --> 00:35:44.692
And then of course I would want to see a world after all this decolonisation has really been questioned and challenged where we as international organisations are taking on more of a supportive role, supportive, like I said, system strengthening or probably simply technical roles, but national organisations really being at the center of implementation.
00:35:45.181 --> 00:35:47.891
I call this working ourselves out of jobs.
00:35:48.811 --> 00:35:51.811
It may sound weird, but that is exactly what it is.
00:35:52.161 --> 00:35:55.612
You cannot claim to be giving power.
00:35:56.422 --> 00:36:20.027
And I think this also speaks to that whole discussion about shift of power on one hand and then clinging onto it with the others, just like when you talk about succession planning in leadership, you can't say, look, I'm building the capacity, but then you're not able and willing to create space for other people to take on from you, and probably lastly, and one of the most important ones is the de centering of knowledge.
00:36:20.027 --> 00:36:25.132
I think for far too long, what has been considered knowledge is White knowledge.
00:36:25.632 --> 00:36:30.722
And everything Black has been bedeviled, to put it mildly.
00:36:31.393 --> 00:36:35.213
I really look forward to that time when you know, knowledge is what it is.
00:36:35.242 --> 00:36:41.713
It is knowledge regardless of where it really comes from, whether it is socioeconomic, whether it is humanitarian.
00:36:42.373 --> 00:36:43.222
Yes, thank you Silvester.
00:36:43.237 --> 00:36:49.197
And that comes back right to the first point that you made about respect and the need for mutual respect.
00:36:49.237 --> 00:37:01.487
So if Black knowledge is being dismissed or othered, then you've got a hierarchy of knowledge in which Eurocentric knowledge is somewhere put at the top...
00:37:02.018 --> 00:37:15.182
That respect definitely goes back to the personal transformation, because without that, if you don't transform yourself as an individual, you can't respect another person and that person can't respect the other.
00:37:15.222 --> 00:37:18.331
It just becomes a full cycle of disrespect.
00:37:19.297 --> 00:37:19.538
Yeah.
00:37:20.538 --> 00:37:20.657
Yeah.
00:37:20.737 --> 00:37:29.577
And what you were talking about before in terms of the systems that you have for mobilising resources for weddings and funerals and so on.
00:37:29.617 --> 00:37:38.547
I've seen that in action actually in Uganda and being incredibly impressed by these deeply embedded local institutions.
00:37:39.443 --> 00:37:58.737
And what you were talking about there is trying to identify a way to scale those institutions up, instead of an approach where institutional forms which are based on European or North American approaches are kind of parachuted in and you're told, well, this is a better way of doing things.
00:37:59.626 --> 00:38:13.806
So I think that's very interesting because something that I'm always very aware of when I come into countries for research doing data collection is the depth and intensity of local networks.
00:38:14.306 --> 00:38:16.677
People are very highly networked.
00:38:16.797 --> 00:38:22.317
There isn't the level of social isolation that we often see in, for example, the UK.
00:38:22.317 --> 00:38:46.237
So you're identifying a step of things around respect, around equity, around stopping othering, and actually about treating each other with the humanity that we deserve, and actually having a much more listening approach and a more curious approach so that we can learn from each other rather than just saying we've got something to teach you and you had better listen.
00:38:46.237 --> 00:38:47.226
So I like that.
00:38:47.806 --> 00:39:03.871
Now we're coming towards the end of our conversation and I was wondering if you would like to share with our listeners and viewers a practical first step that they can take to contribute to the process of decolonisation, anti racism and shifting power.
00:39:03.871 --> 00:39:07.481
I'll start from where I ended, personal transformation.
00:39:07.532 --> 00:39:09.782
I can't overemphasise that enough.
00:39:10.402 --> 00:39:14.244
Now there is no magic wand for this to happen.
00:39:14.244 --> 00:39:18.135
One, of course, as an individual, you need to have introspection.
00:39:18.135 --> 00:39:26.956
You need to be willing and able to learn that there is lots that has been written about decolonisation racism out there.
00:39:28.065 --> 00:39:42.036
And if you're not a person who reads, there's lots of videos about that, but also working on your ability to listen and accept people for who they are and probably what they say.
00:39:42.585 --> 00:40:01.576
I think in this situation, we'll have three kinds of people, those who perpetuate colonialism, those who are on the receiving end, and probably those who are somewhere in the middle, not sure whether they perpetuate racism and also probably not sure whether what they've experienced is actually racism.
00:40:02.246 --> 00:40:09.885
I think whichever situation you're in, you need to interrogate yourself beyond where you see as your status.
00:40:09.896 --> 00:40:14.400
Because clearly, each of us has had their own contribution.
00:40:14.431 --> 00:40:22.041
And if you think, well, I am not racist, for example, but you see racism happening and you do nothing about it, you are not any different.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:34.501
If you have experienced racism and have not talked about it, the fact that you're going through it, you're not helping other people who would actually experience it because you have not spoken out.
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:51.150
So it's really asked to have a reflection and decide, you know, to do something about it, either to stop what we are doing and do something different and better, or to just get involved in the whole movement in our small ways.
00:40:51.771 --> 00:40:59.880
Then, of course, from the point of view of an organisation also, like I said, an organisation is people, it's not buildings and systems.
00:41:00.351 --> 00:41:02.780
There has to be that introspection.
00:41:02.811 --> 00:41:05.150
And the best way you can do that is to do an audit.
00:41:05.150 --> 00:41:22.090
How are you doing in all those aspects that we talked about, HR, finance, management, programs, when you are working with program participants, are you preferring a certain group over another because of race, gender, age or anything.
00:41:23.311 --> 00:41:27.320
And once you have this, suddenly it will help you understand what the gaps are.
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:30.246
Because with the gaps, then you can really work on actions.
00:41:30.806 --> 00:41:36.715
And I do think that this way of doing things can actually apply at an individual level and also at an organisational level.
00:41:37.425 --> 00:41:40.936
And then, of course, based on that, you can develop an action plan.
00:41:40.965 --> 00:41:47.106
I have read this document, I think, by Videa or Videa, I don't know how it's pronounced.
00:41:47.416 --> 00:41:50.146
It's called Organisational Decolonisation Action Plan.
00:41:50.146 --> 00:41:55.255
It gives you questions about what questions you ask within the different layers of an organisation system.
00:41:55.255 --> 00:41:59.576
It also helps give you, you know, some of the actions that you could actually undertake.
00:41:59.826 --> 00:42:09.405
But I think the most important thing would be to develop an action plan that has very, very actionable points.
00:42:09.405 --> 00:42:26.315
That's why, like I said, it's very important to layer things, you know, what is short term, what is long term, what is high level policy, what is mid management level, what is, in our case, country level, what is at a personal level, what is at a programmatic level.
00:42:26.315 --> 00:42:35.920
Once you have this, it will make sense to people, and each one will know that they can make a contribution, but if it remains very high end, I mean, it will remain on paper.
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:39.271
Thank you so much, Silvester.
00:42:39.291 --> 00:42:45.990
And we'll find out the details about that guidance document that you mentioned just now and link to it in the show notes.
00:42:46.701 --> 00:42:54.420
And I also think another good starting point for our listeners and viewers is Bond's Anti Racist and Decolonising Framework.
00:42:54.471 --> 00:43:09.311
I can't quite remember the title just now, but we'll link to that in the show notes as well, because that links through a whole set of questions that people can ask from the board level right down to the policy program and comms level of an organisation.
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.041
So I'd like to thank you, Silvester, for joining us today.
00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:19.731
You've led us through some very interesting discussions and sensitive reflections on this issue.
00:43:20.161 --> 00:43:21.351
So, thanks again.
00:43:21.351 --> 00:43:22.867
Thanks a lot, Kate, for having me.
00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:06.129
Hello, I'm Professor Kate Bird and this is the Development Hub's The Power Shift Decolonising Development.
00:00:06.509 --> 00:00:18.050
Today we're talking to Silvester Kasozi from Light for the World, Uganda about the systematic approach they have implemented to decolonise the way they work as an organisation.
00:00:18.070 --> 00:00:29.370
Silvester speaks to us about the importance of involving all departments of an organisation in the approach to decolonisation especially driving change locally from their country offices.
00:00:29.370 --> 00:00:35.350
We discuss the challenges of putting a system in place that responds to the needs of an organisation as a whole.
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And we talk about putting a strategy in place to approach decolonisation in a multi layered way and interrogate the issue from different perspectives.
00:00:44.524 --> 00:00:54.784
Silvester speaks of his vision for the development and humanitarian space, which is founded on respect, equity, and where knowledge is valued regardless of its origin.
00:00:54.784 --> 00:00:57.685
Listen on for more, and don't forget to like and follow.
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Also, you may want to sign up to our newsletter at devhubuk.org for updates and resources on decolonisation.
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Listen on for more.
00:01:09.034 --> 00:01:20.094
Welcome to the Power Shift Decolonising Development, the podcast series seeking to bring together thinkers, practitioners, and activists to share ideas, inspire change, and identify tools for practical action.
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I'm Professor Kate Bird, a socio economist and director of the Development Hub.
00:01:24.519 --> 00:01:26.609
Today, unfortunately, my co host, Dr.
00:01:26.609 --> 00:01:50.340
Nompilo Ndlovu is unable to join us, but I'm very excited to be speaking with Silvester Kasozi, who is a humanitarian and development practitioner, a sociologist by training, and currently the country director of Light for the World Uganda, an organisation that works to spark lasting change for disability rights and eye health in sub Saharan Africa.
00:01:50.980 --> 00:01:58.700
He's also the co chair for the organisation's Decolonisation Working Group and disability inclusion enthusiast.
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For more on Silvester and his work and the work of his organisation, please click on the show notes below this episode where you can find out more.
00:02:07.420 --> 00:02:14.949
Silvester, can you tell our audience what led you and your organisation, Light of the World, to think about decolonisation?
00:02:14.949 --> 00:02:18.150
Thank you very much, Kate for that very good introduction of me.
00:02:18.659 --> 00:02:21.599
But most importantly, thanks for having me on this podcast.
00:02:21.599 --> 00:02:32.687
The reason I am very passionate about decolonisation goes back to the time that I was actually an expatriate, a period that almost lasted a little over 15 years.
00:02:32.687 --> 00:02:44.681
And during that period, of course, working in different countries in Africa, Asia and the Middle East, I experienced various and plenty forms of racism.
00:02:44.681 --> 00:02:55.110
Unfortunately, I didn't have a space within which to speak to somebody about it, or sort of detoxify myself from those experiences.
00:02:55.871 --> 00:03:19.135
So for me, coming to an organisation like Light for the World about three years ago, and one of the things I really found on the table at that time was an organisation diagnostic of what was called the DEI, a survey, but of course, with a specific component on racism, I was actually shocked that such a conversation about it could be had in an organisation.
00:03:19.156 --> 00:03:24.596
And I thought that this would be an opportunity for me to speak out, but also to help the organisation be different.
00:03:24.645 --> 00:03:28.376
At least do things differently from what I did experience.
00:03:29.096 --> 00:03:31.665
So, that's how I really got into it.
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And there was no question about it when I was asked to join in and support.
00:03:36.246 --> 00:03:45.906
But I also do think that, at the time that was done, actually, as an organisation, we were doing our strategy for the next, I think, about five or five years.
00:03:45.945 --> 00:03:47.445
That was around 2020, 2021.
00:03:47.496 --> 00:04:03.825
So it only made sense that that discussion was being had then because then it would definitely part of the strategy, but also now, it speaks a lot to what we have as our values as an organisation now without any strategy, which are basically respect, and I think we all agree.
00:04:03.825 --> 00:04:18.620
You can't be kind, you can't be caring if your personality perpetuates racism or colonialism in one way or the other, then of course we do espouse accountability and that speaks a lot to being transparent.
00:04:18.701 --> 00:04:25.721
We need to have conversations about, you know, what people feel about things that happen to them, things that are said to them.
00:04:26.151 --> 00:04:43.475
And in this case, things that they feel are bordering on or actually racist in nature, and then, of course, inclusion is a major part of our work, and I think you see a lot of our communications about inclusion of persons with disability, but we also know that inclusion is very, very broad.
00:04:43.940 --> 00:04:45.880
It's much more than disability.
00:04:45.911 --> 00:04:48.951
It's inclusion of women, inclusion of children.
00:04:49.471 --> 00:04:56.641
But you also can't talk about inclusion if you're racist, because racism by its own nature or colonialism is discriminating.
00:04:58.836 --> 00:05:02.446
So we really want to broaden our spectrum of inclusion.
00:05:02.555 --> 00:05:06.185
We needed to speak to the ills of colonialism.
00:05:06.187 --> 00:05:08.656
And then of course, lastly, the value of learning.
00:05:09.475 --> 00:05:19.456
I think you agree with me, Kate, that there is no apex to learning about any subject, more so colonialism that has been around for several years.
00:05:19.675 --> 00:05:39.120
So, we believe that we are on a learning trajectory, learning more about what colonialism has done, learning about what we can do to demystify stereotypes regarding the same subject, but also learning about what we can do to prevent what has probably happened several years ago.
00:05:39.451 --> 00:05:44.951
And probably going on now from manifesting within the work that we do as an organisation.
00:05:44.951 --> 00:05:45.961
Thank you, Silvester.
00:05:46.511 --> 00:06:09.206
It's interesting that you came to this work with Light for the World through thinking about DEI because I suppose when I think about DEI, I'm often thinking about HR in organisations and their recruitment and progression strategies, which tends to focus quite on the individual.
00:06:09.360 --> 00:06:18.130
And I think one of the things about thinking about decolonisation is that it takes much more of a historical and structural perspective.
00:06:18.141 --> 00:06:30.795
So I'm guessing with your work in the organisations, you've had to bring those kind of two elements together, which is in a way a much more kind of political action.
00:06:31.315 --> 00:06:47.995
And I wonder if that has been challenging for you individually or for you as an organisation to bring those two aspects together and to take more of a kind of systems wide political and historically embedded approach to thinking about equity.
00:06:47.995 --> 00:06:50.636
Yeah, thank you very much for that question.
00:06:50.636 --> 00:06:53.685
I think you cannot necessarily separate the two.
00:06:53.735 --> 00:07:07.776
I mean, it's not like one can work without the other, if you think about it, systems are created by people and it's the very same people can decide either to use them for their own good or for other reasons for which they are not really meant.
00:07:08.406 --> 00:07:11.846
But at the same time, it comes from what we feel as individuals.
00:07:12.321 --> 00:07:22.341
Based on what we feel, either we feel good about something or bad, that will get us to act about a system, you know, either to change it or to actually strengthen it.
00:07:22.391 --> 00:07:30.836
In my case, for example, talking about this issue, being one of the key people leading the discussions about it is therapy.
00:07:31.375 --> 00:07:37.665
I think being able to talk to people here and what people say, whether they like it or not, is very good for me as an individual.
00:07:38.136 --> 00:07:51.055
But the fact that I get therapeutic support from this then speaks to how I can actually support an organisation structure itself in such a way that it deals with these ills.
00:07:51.286 --> 00:08:02.935
And that's precisely why for us, we are taking more of a systemic approach because with a system, regardless of which individual really comes into an organisation, the system will stay, but the individuals will actually leave.
00:08:02.956 --> 00:08:31.321
But also if it is really systemised actions that are seeking to really address issues of racism and colonialism, then the impact can actually really be felt because, if there are actions that are put in place to address something, it also means there are actions that are in place if something is actually not done, but it also means that resources will have to be earmarked to be able to address issues that may actually arise.
00:08:31.331 --> 00:08:37.030
So I think a systemic approach is good, but it's very important.
00:08:37.041 --> 00:08:42.311
First, what we feel as individuals, because organisations are not just systems.
00:08:42.880 --> 00:08:55.130
Organisations are actually people and in any cases, people create the systems, implement the systems or actually do not, and by so doing, actually, sort of perpetuate things like colonial tendencies.
00:08:55.130 --> 00:08:56.091
Thank you, Silvester.
00:08:56.110 --> 00:09:20.250
Yes, I absolutely agree with you that an organisation can have beautiful protocols and policies, but unless people genuinely agree with them and implement them in a wholehearted way, then the procedures stay just that and they're not really living and breathing reforms.
00:09:21.331 --> 00:09:31.191
I wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about the reforms that Light of the World has already engaged in around decolonisation.
00:09:31.471 --> 00:09:52.760
It sounds to me as though it's an environment in which you're able to pursue these agendas, because it's interesting that you say you found these discussions to be healing discussions and therapeutic because I know many people of color in many international organisations around the world have not found that to be the case.
00:09:52.770 --> 00:09:58.770
They've actually come against hard barriers and it's actually been a very difficult experience for them.
00:09:58.791 --> 00:10:04.900
So I'd be very interested to hear more about Light of the World and the approaches that they've already taken on this agenda.
00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:16.750
That is very true, Kate, because, you know, some organisations indeed on the surface seem to be like doing something about it, but when you really get to the bottom of things, it's mere posturing.
00:10:16.801 --> 00:10:19.660
I'm just glad that real steps are being taken here.
00:10:20.130 --> 00:11:01.421
And like I said at the very beginning, at least as of the time I joined the organisation three years ago, there was a diagnostic taking place, some sort of an audit about the status quo and what that spoke to was actually the need to have, at the time, a DEI coordinator who would help us interrogate all the issues that had actually come through, several, and like I said, racism was just one part of many other things that really came out of that survey, and what he also helped us is, of course, to come up with sort of ideas that we would undertake, systems that would be put in place to be able to challenge or rather to manage the gaps that had been identified.
00:11:02.341 --> 00:11:11.553
Then in our case, we realised that for decolonisation to be taken seriously, there was the need to have co-chairs for the discourse.
00:11:11.553 --> 00:11:21.328
With my supervisor, who at the time was the international director of programs, Jess who you actually met in this in the Skill Share course.
00:11:23.024 --> 00:11:29.254
She reached out to me and another colleague, both from Africa to join her to get the discussion going.
00:11:29.833 --> 00:11:39.313
I must say it wasn't a very easy one for me, but like I said, I think I got the realisation that this would be a journey that would be healing, and that's exactly what has happened.
00:11:39.833 --> 00:11:47.364
So we joined together, but then we also realised as co-chairs, we would not be able to bring about the change that we wanted alone.
00:11:47.714 --> 00:11:54.624
We needed people to talk to us, to give us information to critique what we were doing.
00:11:55.134 --> 00:11:57.553
So as a result, we created a working group.
00:11:57.673 --> 00:12:05.624
It's an online working group, a Teams one where whoever wants to join the discussion on decolonisation joins.
00:12:06.073 --> 00:12:16.443
In that, we share videos, we share articles about issues to do with racism or colonisation that sort of spark discussions.
00:12:16.443 --> 00:12:23.604
And by so doing, of course, we will critique ourselves and ask ourselves what we can do or what we could have done differently.
00:12:23.933 --> 00:12:26.524
Or maybe we could actually have done the same ourselves.
00:12:26.533 --> 00:12:44.673
And then, of course, one of the other actions we undertook is to try and do as much as possible simultaneous translations for documents, for meetings and all that, because we were working currently about 10 countries, only offices in four and all these countries have different languages.
00:12:44.714 --> 00:12:53.129
You know, we have French, we have Portuguese, bordering on Spanish, we have English, and of course, these countries have their own dialects as well.
00:12:53.129 --> 00:12:59.908
So, it was important for us to really get documentations into languages that those specific countries can understand.
00:13:00.489 --> 00:13:03.288
So that, you know, as much as possible, we are inclusive.
00:13:04.298 --> 00:13:12.028
Beyond that, we also, as an organisation, I found the trend going on, and I'm glad that it has been kept.
00:13:12.644 --> 00:13:36.043
All the country directors of our country offices are actually nationals of those countries, and I think, having worked in this space, the struggle there is of having nationals compared to people from the minority world, but in Light for the World, there's no question about it, and I think that is also going to be very important in contextualising and localising action regarding decolonisation.
00:13:37.494 --> 00:13:39.933
But this did not come, you know, from nowhere.
00:13:40.053 --> 00:13:49.193
Our board, the top most decision making body, 40 percent of the people there are of African descent, Blacks of African descent for that matter.
00:13:49.884 --> 00:13:56.813
And it only makes sense that if you have that done at the top-most body, then it's easy to cascade it down.
00:13:57.344 --> 00:14:04.004
Or you can actually be more intentional, and we also do have more or less the same at the international management team level.
00:14:04.053 --> 00:14:17.874
And then, so beyond that, we also started introductory sessions within the organisation about what we understand by colonisation and decolonisation and what direction as an organisation we want to take.
00:14:18.354 --> 00:14:32.254
So we've had discussions with different departments that includes HR, finance, programs, international management, and also within the comms, as you know, that's a very, very important department in disseminating information.
00:14:32.974 --> 00:14:42.923
And the beauty about Light for the World is that to be part of this global team, you don't have to be in Vienna, which is where really the organisation started.
00:14:43.524 --> 00:14:53.774
There are lots of people who are actually in Africa, but are part of this global support system and are not necessarily restricting their support to the countries where they are based.
00:14:53.774 --> 00:15:00.163
Then, of course, we've moved on again from that level to doing introductory sessions with country directors.
00:15:01.234 --> 00:15:07.783
Why this is very, very important is because, one, we need their support in driving the agenda at the senior management level.
00:15:08.234 --> 00:15:44.933
But also we need their support to localise actions because we shouldn't look at decolonisation actions as something outside, in our case, the African countries, we being ideally from the majority world on the receiving end, we need to have our own discourse amongst ourselves, because if we also don't look at the subtle ways in which as countries we perpetuate actions that are akin to racism, say within our ethnic identities and all that, we have no more authority to question what people from the outside actually do.
00:15:45.504 --> 00:15:57.234
Lastly, we are working on an e course that we are going to use as our induction tool for all staff getting into the organisation.
00:15:57.634 --> 00:16:03.283
Because, of course, it's not very easy getting all new staff all the time, putting them together, introducing them to the topic.
00:16:03.833 --> 00:16:25.073
And the thing about it, knowing that is also a sensitive question, if anybody's embarrassed or feels challenged by the topic, if they're doing an e course, they would have no one around them to make them feel embarrassed or, I mean, they will do their own introspection within this, and of course you cannot claim, you've not been able to watch it.
00:16:25.083 --> 00:16:31.714
It's going to be interactive, it's going to be inclusive, at least accessible for people with disability as well.
00:16:32.144 --> 00:16:34.783
So these are all the ways that we've been really working on.
00:16:34.783 --> 00:16:39.803
I mean, they may seem many, but we also know that we really, really have a long way to go as an organisation.
00:16:40.173 --> 00:16:48.599
Even then, we are just grateful that there has been that space to have the discussion and for us to be able to make the progress we have made to date.
00:16:48.599 --> 00:16:49.438
Thank you, Silvester.
00:16:49.458 --> 00:17:25.788
I mean, that's a very multi layered approach that you've taken, and I'm very interested to hear the 40 percent of your board being Black people of African origin, because I'm sure that having that leadership impacts on the integration of these ideas right from the top, and it's great to hear that you've got an e course providing induction for all your new staff as well, but it sounds as though you've got an attitude to learning and personal transformation integrated into thinking about everything from finance through to communications through to project design and so on.
00:17:25.788 --> 00:17:26.868
So it's very interesting.
00:17:28.558 --> 00:17:28.848
Thank you.
00:17:28.898 --> 00:17:49.703
I'd love to hear a little bit more about the challenges that you feel that you and the organisation have faced in seeking to decolonise the way that you work, because, what you've identified is a very positive narrative, you talked about healing and it sounds as though the process of change in Light for the World has been very smooth.
00:17:50.413 --> 00:17:58.784
I mean, it sounds as though it's an organisation that was very open to change, had structured itself where it was ready to embrace these ideas.
00:17:58.784 --> 00:18:08.473
But I know that decolonisation is a complicated thing because it's rooting out ideas that have been deeply internalised.
00:18:08.624 --> 00:18:20.959
We don't always recognise the way that we've internalised these ideas about racial hierarchies, around superiority and inferiority, Eurocentric thinking, and so on and so forth.
00:18:20.969 --> 00:18:34.314
So I'd be very interested to hear whether you and or the organisation have come against challenges and what you think the next steps are that you would like to take, both as an individual, but also as the organisation.
00:18:34.314 --> 00:18:36.753
You can be certain about that.
00:18:37.594 --> 00:18:41.804
Luckily for us, I think the challenges have been much fewer compared to the progress that we have made.
00:18:41.804 --> 00:18:45.554
But, you know, we're only on the journey, so we do not know what really, really lies ahead.
00:18:45.903 --> 00:18:55.534
I think chief of this is, when you work in a space like ours, humanitarian, development work, the outlook is that you're doing good, right?
00:18:56.104 --> 00:19:04.554
The fact that you're really helping out people who are in most need, in this situation, persons with disability, amongst others.
00:19:05.023 --> 00:19:09.064
But it is not enough to say you're doing good.
00:19:09.693 --> 00:19:13.854
There's a lot of other things that tag along everything else that we are doing.
00:19:14.433 --> 00:19:34.554
So just like you see with gender mainstreaming, you may be doing good, but probably if you are, I would say, gender blind, you'll be blind to the effects of what you're doing to either men and women or blind to what you're doing has as an effect on children.
00:19:35.334 --> 00:19:37.493
It could be a number of other facets.
00:19:37.493 --> 00:19:48.044
So, the feeling that we already doing good enough I think is something that we have to continue interrogating and challenging ourselves against.
00:19:48.874 --> 00:19:59.608
The other is the issue of decolonisation is a touchy one, in our case, depending on how you want to position yourself as an organisation, it could have an effect on how your donors view you.
00:20:00.288 --> 00:20:05.699
If they're very Eurocentric in nature, you could easily or likely lose their funding.
00:20:06.338 --> 00:20:10.328
So we also have to be careful as an organisation, how do we present ourselves.
00:20:10.844 --> 00:20:12.723
Do we want to do it in a very radical way?
00:20:12.723 --> 00:20:19.124
Do we want to do it in a transitional way and how do our major donors perceive it?
00:20:19.173 --> 00:20:43.019
And it's not just donors, also our partners because if you're talking about being decolonial, it probably means in our case as an organisation, giving more space for national organisations to, say, implement programs and us providing more of a system strengthening, sort of like support, which can as well be questioned because the question is.
00:20:43.759 --> 00:20:53.098
Who gives you the moral grounds to say, you know, people need support or need their capacity strengthened and is yours strengthened anyway.
00:20:53.669 --> 00:20:59.999
And then of course, you know, even for us as chairs, you are leading a discussion on a topic that you are also continuously learning about.
00:21:00.663 --> 00:21:04.284
You don't know how people view you depending on what you say or do.
00:21:04.673 --> 00:21:10.134
You believe you're doing, you're being well meaning, but probably you could step on a few toes.
00:21:10.493 --> 00:21:13.314
But the question is, if you don't do it, who will?
00:21:14.223 --> 00:21:24.763
Then, again, because it is touchy, when you have forums where people are ideally supposed to be speaking, and they all get quiet, you ask yourself, am I doing the right thing?
00:21:24.773 --> 00:21:26.344
Have I posted the right information?
00:21:27.183 --> 00:21:34.144
But then being a communicator, I have learned that silence in itself, just like in music, we have silent beats, is communication.
00:21:34.574 --> 00:21:47.548
The question is, if people are so quiet, then it means either they understand everything or probably have simply decided not to listen to anything.
00:21:47.548 --> 00:21:53.278
So I think there has to be a bit of a balance, so it can actually be a very, very lonely journey.
00:21:54.189 --> 00:22:07.882
But I think the belief in it's the right thing to be done, you have the backing of the management, then at least, even when things really get to rock bottom, you know you are doing the right thing.
00:22:07.882 --> 00:22:17.172
And another key thing, and I think this is a general challenge to, I guess, organisations, including even companies.
00:22:18.112 --> 00:22:24.092
How do you create a safe space for people to talk about the experiences of racism?
00:22:24.201 --> 00:22:31.571
It's one thing to evoke emotions, to evoke people, and they talk about this issue, but you know, it also evokes past experiences.
00:22:32.156 --> 00:22:37.096
What is that space they go to to sort of calm themselves down?
00:22:37.606 --> 00:22:42.146
Many times, of course, as organisations we say we do have safeguarding spaces.
00:22:42.146 --> 00:22:49.166
The question is, do these safeguarding spaces also accommodate issues that have to do with racism?
00:22:49.967 --> 00:22:55.436
But I think for me, really, the question, what we really need to do is continue the journey of awareness.
00:22:55.457 --> 00:23:00.616
And as you've seen a lot of the work that we have done is really creating that space where people can talk about it.
00:23:00.656 --> 00:23:04.146
Because when you talk about an issue, you come to terms with it.
00:23:04.307 --> 00:23:06.376
It's simply how advertising works.
00:23:06.426 --> 00:23:16.126
Even if a product wasn't very good, the more you throw it into your face, the more you actually come to accept it and realise that maybe I should actually try it out and see.
00:23:16.856 --> 00:23:33.862
And lastly, I think for us what we are looking forward to doing is to work out a strategy because I think a strategy we look at the issue in its breadth, in its entirety, interrogate it and come up with different or multilayered ways of actually approaching the discussion.
00:23:34.751 --> 00:23:52.201
So what this helps is that everybody at whatever level they are, whether at a country office, whether at an individual level, whether at a systemic level, you can be able to do an action that can help address issues to do with colonialism or racism for that matter.
00:23:52.201 --> 00:23:53.092
Thanks, Silvester.
00:23:53.112 --> 00:24:02.061
You mentioned strategy and I know from a previous conversation that Light for the World is going through a strategy process at the moment.
00:24:02.771 --> 00:24:09.652
I think from previous discussions you've said that decolonisation and anti racism is going to be part of that strategy.
00:24:10.332 --> 00:24:25.652
I wonder if you could just tell us a little bit more about that, and I'm also very interested to hear what kind of practical steps Light for the World is taking in operationalising a decolonised and anti racist approach?
00:24:25.731 --> 00:24:45.721
Do you have, for example, standard operating procedures or checklists or written rules or expectations about the way that project design is done, that risk assessments are done, that monitoring evaluation systems are designed and organised, that reporting systems, that funding.
00:24:46.021 --> 00:25:07.332
I mean, these are all touchy areas where colonial thinking can embed themselves, and unwittingly you can perpetuate power systems, which actually disempower local communities and local people who are at the cutting edge, the coal face of making change happen.
00:25:07.832 --> 00:25:15.201
So I'd very much like to hear a little bit about the strategy process and what practical things the organisation is doing to embed change.
00:25:15.201 --> 00:25:17.051
Yeah, definitely.
00:25:17.142 --> 00:25:22.642
Anti racism and decolonisation are a very, very integral part of our strategy development process.
00:25:23.102 --> 00:25:34.041
It's very much part of our transition process scenario development, because, you know, knowing where the world is going, these are issues that we need to reflect about and be ready for the implications.
00:25:34.442 --> 00:25:44.622
I think already some of these things are manifesting, looking at the politics of the day, and suddenly politics sucks us in as development and humanitarian practitioners.
00:25:46.606 --> 00:26:11.146
We've done, like I said, initially, we did a diagnostic that was, you know, much broader, and there was an element of decolonisation, but we've also done a mapping where we update actions that we have taken, but also actions that you probably need to take because every time you take an action, it actually opens your eyes to ideally something else that you could probably do.
00:26:11.146 --> 00:26:13.547
We do not have yet a robust work plan.
00:26:13.606 --> 00:26:20.707
And that is precisely why it's important one for us that this discussion is part of the strategy.
00:26:21.116 --> 00:26:26.682
But we also think at some point, maybe, again, that will very much depend on the leadership.
00:26:27.632 --> 00:26:43.951
Maybe we need to have a look at it as a different discussion, not that it'll be disconnected from our priorities as an organisation as embedded the strategy, but what that would help us is to look at it in a much more broader sense.
00:26:44.481 --> 00:26:50.747
Like I said, so that we can be able to know what are those elements that each of us can really pick out?
00:26:51.116 --> 00:27:16.797
I think you also know that organisation strategies are normally broader and they need to be sort of contextualised, brought down to the level in our case from international level to country office level, but also that needs to be reflected in programs, but also it should be reflected in your systems, whether operational or programs, and you cannot do that unless you have a proper assessment of the issue as an organisation.
00:27:16.817 --> 00:27:24.987
So, discussions are ongoing and we need to have this sort of agreement as an organisation, which direction we shall take.
00:27:25.497 --> 00:27:31.576
But at least for now, we are certain it's already part of our global organisation strategy.
00:27:31.576 --> 00:27:33.007
Thank you very much, Silvester.
00:27:33.686 --> 00:27:40.616
We've obviously spoken a lot previously and you've mentioned the Skill Share Programme in passing during this conversation.
00:27:41.086 --> 00:27:47.517
So you are part of cohort two of the Development Hub's Skill Share Programme on decolonising development.
00:27:48.307 --> 00:27:51.977
I wonder if you could tell us a little bit about your experience.
00:27:51.977 --> 00:28:06.507
Yeah, honestly, coming into the training, I didn't know what really to expect, but of course, I was very much convinced by my supervisor then, of course, who we worked with and who ensured that the organisation supports me to get into the course.
00:28:06.836 --> 00:28:08.586
I think for me, a couple of things turned out.
00:28:08.606 --> 00:28:18.817
One was the vulnerability that was manifested during the course, the fact that people would get in there, really, really open up.
00:28:19.017 --> 00:28:20.836
I recall a specific situation.
00:28:20.836 --> 00:28:29.426
I think when one of the guests told us about an experience they went through and we had to go into our triads to speak about that, that really was deep.
00:28:29.477 --> 00:28:32.557
I wouldn't say there is anything more therapeutic than that.
00:28:32.606 --> 00:28:44.547
But I think also the experience of being in one place with people from very diverse backgrounds, some from very, very big agencies beyond NGOs, others from the private sector.
00:28:45.606 --> 00:28:51.747
It just helps you realise that, you know, this is not just something that I face in my own space.
00:28:52.731 --> 00:28:57.352
But it really helped me in my case to get perspectives of other people.
00:28:57.352 --> 00:29:04.047
I mean, the people that we have met, and talked about and with whom conversations are still ongoing.
00:29:04.047 --> 00:29:12.737
But you also know, and I think you saw that there were people who are still coming to terms with the whole discussion, probably even after their training, they are still struggling.
00:29:12.757 --> 00:29:13.616
And that is okay.
00:29:13.967 --> 00:29:29.156
I think it very much spoke to the journey that one really goes through to come into terms with the situation either as a perpetrator of colonialism or one who has been on the receiving end and then deciding, you know, what do I do about it.
00:29:29.156 --> 00:29:31.227
Did I go through it and then leave it at that?
00:29:31.707 --> 00:29:35.467
Or can I get out of this training different and do something about it?
00:29:35.497 --> 00:29:42.586
And I think it was very important that in the end, we ended up at that point where we were supposed to go back and do action planning.
00:29:42.596 --> 00:29:50.696
That was very important for me because my supervisor who I was working with was about to leave and I really had to take on the mantle.
00:29:51.307 --> 00:29:56.836
So I was definitely empowered going out of the training that, you know, I am not alone.
00:29:56.946 --> 00:29:59.356
There are people I can also go back to ask questions.
00:29:59.717 --> 00:30:05.257
It's a community that we can always go back to and raise questions and get support.
00:30:05.257 --> 00:30:15.376
And then, of course, like I said, we want to really go into developing a proper and robust action plan, but we are still looking at how do we do it.
00:30:15.457 --> 00:30:26.836
We first do like a broad and really robust assessment that will help us do a big plan where we can extract actions.
00:30:27.116 --> 00:30:32.767
That's not to say the things that we've been doing or planning to do small in their own way, we will stop doing.
00:30:32.767 --> 00:30:35.336
No, but we know it's a big topic.
00:30:36.122 --> 00:30:38.321
A topic that will be with us for a long time.
00:30:38.332 --> 00:30:40.221
Therefore, we need to look at the bigger picture.
00:30:40.902 --> 00:30:43.102
So, it was really eye opening.
00:30:43.142 --> 00:30:46.261
Of course, the guests with different approaches.
00:30:46.261 --> 00:31:08.182
I recall that specific one where we were looking at how you interrogate colonialism tenets in the different, for example, departments of an organisation, which is very important because in our case we had done introductions, but then we need to move away from people knowing what it is to saying, okay, can we have a reflection of our different dockets?
00:31:09.231 --> 00:31:10.162
How are we doing?
00:31:10.602 --> 00:31:16.471
And what can we do about the things that are glaringly colonial or racist for that matter.
00:31:18.771 --> 00:31:19.751
Thank you, Silvester.
00:31:19.771 --> 00:31:27.551
And I love the point that you made about creating connections with other people from across the development and humanitarian space.
00:31:27.551 --> 00:31:32.192
I know that you've kept in touch with some of the other people from Cohort Two.
00:31:32.192 --> 00:31:40.051
And in fact, Leslie Mudimu has actually been speaking with you and your colleagues as part of your strategy development process.
00:31:40.051 --> 00:31:50.172
I really like the fact that the program links people across different spaces and breaks down the kind of silos in the development world.
00:31:50.172 --> 00:31:51.261
So that's really lovely.
00:31:52.001 --> 00:31:58.721
I'd love to hear more about your vision for the development and humanitarian space.
00:31:58.771 --> 00:32:05.821
What do you think it will look like and feel like when there's been real progress around decolonisation?
00:32:05.842 --> 00:32:19.781
I think first and foremost, and this has a lot to do with our value as an organisation, I see a humanitarian development space that's more respectful.
00:32:20.602 --> 00:32:26.082
A space that is devoid of what I have come to call authorisation of different people.
00:32:26.082 --> 00:32:34.192
I think you really understand what I'm saying, you know, this situation where we have poor countries, underdeveloped, middle income and that sort of thing.
00:32:35.031 --> 00:32:41.102
Sometimes you ask yourself, what are the criteria for determining this classification?
00:32:41.241 --> 00:32:44.561
But I think for me, the point is, yeah, fine.
00:32:44.582 --> 00:32:46.281
I may be poor in your eyes.
00:32:46.906 --> 00:32:51.396
But have you asked me in my case, what poor means to me.
00:32:52.156 --> 00:32:55.007
So that bit of respect within the space.
00:32:55.767 --> 00:33:18.446
So the issue of the haves and the have nots, and that very much speaks to my next point, which is really, I look forward to a time when there is equity when our space, development humanitarian, name it, is more equitable, when we can be able to negotiate, to have equal terms of negotiating partnerships.
00:33:18.737 --> 00:33:21.076
We sit on the table and say, okay, this is the money we need.
00:33:21.116 --> 00:33:26.376
And we are going to use this money for this because this is where for us, the needs are.
00:33:26.946 --> 00:33:31.277
It very much goes also on to other things like determination of rights.
00:33:31.747 --> 00:33:33.477
Yes, we know we have a charter on rights.
00:33:34.001 --> 00:33:43.112
But what makes you think what you consider a right in your case is a right in my case, actually, what you consider right could be a violation of mine.
00:33:43.142 --> 00:33:53.001
And I know there are lots of discussions about some of these global topics, some of which actually are a violation of rights in our part of the world as a majority.
00:33:53.001 --> 00:34:02.731
So I look forward to that point also where we can be more inward looking when it comes to fundraising, there has been a deliberate creation of dependence.
00:34:03.392 --> 00:34:12.891
And I've seen, I mean, I've watched so many videos about this, but things that I've also experienced on funding, you know, of the West in this case, the majority world.
00:34:13.452 --> 00:34:15.922
But when you come back in our own communities, I'll tell you.
00:34:16.362 --> 00:34:19.152
There are lots of support systems that exist in our countries.
00:34:19.152 --> 00:34:26.882
For example, often, in fact, we don't have houses for all the people in my country where we take all people to be looked after.
00:34:27.371 --> 00:34:31.931
We have systems in which we can look after our own people.
00:34:32.291 --> 00:34:41.936
When you go to villages, people have mechanisms how they support each other when people die, they have mechanisms of how they support each other when they're going to have weddings.
00:34:42.387 --> 00:34:46.867
They have mechanisms where, you know, people support each other, when they are really in need.
00:34:47.226 --> 00:35:04.262
And my question has always been, if this works at those small elements at family level, clan level, community level, why can't it work at the level where you probably have a national organisation and it can actually do its own fundraising within a country?
00:35:04.931 --> 00:35:11.061
The amounts of money that people actually raise to support people for weddings are enormous.
00:35:11.552 --> 00:35:20.072
And if somebody actually found a way of tapping into these resources, to support, for example, national organisations, we would be way, way ahead.
00:35:20.121 --> 00:35:44.692
And then of course I would want to see a world after all this decolonisation has really been questioned and challenged where we as international organisations are taking on more of a supportive role, supportive, like I said, system strengthening or probably simply technical roles, but national organisations really being at the center of implementation.
00:35:45.181 --> 00:35:47.891
I call this working ourselves out of jobs.
00:35:48.811 --> 00:35:51.811
It may sound weird, but that is exactly what it is.
00:35:52.161 --> 00:35:55.612
You cannot claim to be giving power.
00:35:56.422 --> 00:36:20.027
And I think this also speaks to that whole discussion about shift of power on one hand and then clinging onto it with the others, just like when you talk about succession planning in leadership, you can't say, look, I'm building the capacity, but then you're not able and willing to create space for other people to take on from you, and probably lastly, and one of the most important ones is the de centering of knowledge.
00:36:20.027 --> 00:36:25.132
I think for far too long, what has been considered knowledge is White knowledge.
00:36:25.632 --> 00:36:30.722
And everything Black has been bedeviled, to put it mildly.
00:36:31.393 --> 00:36:35.213
I really look forward to that time when you know, knowledge is what it is.
00:36:35.242 --> 00:36:41.713
It is knowledge regardless of where it really comes from, whether it is socioeconomic, whether it is humanitarian.
00:36:42.373 --> 00:36:43.222
Yes, thank you Silvester.
00:36:43.237 --> 00:36:49.197
And that comes back right to the first point that you made about respect and the need for mutual respect.
00:36:49.237 --> 00:37:01.487
So if Black knowledge is being dismissed or othered, then you've got a hierarchy of knowledge in which Eurocentric knowledge is somewhere put at the top...
00:37:02.018 --> 00:37:15.182
That respect definitely goes back to the personal transformation, because without that, if you don't transform yourself as an individual, you can't respect another person and that person can't respect the other.
00:37:15.222 --> 00:37:18.331
It just becomes a full cycle of disrespect.
00:37:19.297 --> 00:37:19.538
Yeah.
00:37:20.538 --> 00:37:20.657
Yeah.
00:37:20.737 --> 00:37:29.577
And what you were talking about before in terms of the systems that you have for mobilising resources for weddings and funerals and so on.
00:37:29.617 --> 00:37:38.547
I've seen that in action actually in Uganda and being incredibly impressed by these deeply embedded local institutions.
00:37:39.443 --> 00:37:58.737
And what you were talking about there is trying to identify a way to scale those institutions up, instead of an approach where institutional forms which are based on European or North American approaches are kind of parachuted in and you're told, well, this is a better way of doing things.
00:37:59.626 --> 00:38:13.806
So I think that's very interesting because something that I'm always very aware of when I come into countries for research doing data collection is the depth and intensity of local networks.
00:38:14.306 --> 00:38:16.677
People are very highly networked.
00:38:16.797 --> 00:38:22.317
There isn't the level of social isolation that we often see in, for example, the UK.
00:38:22.317 --> 00:38:46.237
So you're identifying a step of things around respect, around equity, around stopping othering, and actually about treating each other with the humanity that we deserve, and actually having a much more listening approach and a more curious approach so that we can learn from each other rather than just saying we've got something to teach you and you had better listen.
00:38:46.237 --> 00:38:47.226
So I like that.
00:38:47.806 --> 00:39:03.871
Now we're coming towards the end of our conversation and I was wondering if you would like to share with our listeners and viewers a practical first step that they can take to contribute to the process of decolonisation, anti racism and shifting power.
00:39:03.871 --> 00:39:07.481
I'll start from where I ended, personal transformation.
00:39:07.532 --> 00:39:09.782
I can't overemphasise that enough.
00:39:10.402 --> 00:39:14.244
Now there is no magic wand for this to happen.
00:39:14.244 --> 00:39:18.135
One, of course, as an individual, you need to have introspection.
00:39:18.135 --> 00:39:26.956
You need to be willing and able to learn that there is lots that has been written about decolonisation racism out there.
00:39:28.065 --> 00:39:42.036
And if you're not a person who reads, there's lots of videos about that, but also working on your ability to listen and accept people for who they are and probably what they say.
00:39:42.585 --> 00:40:01.576
I think in this situation, we'll have three kinds of people, those who perpetuate colonialism, those who are on the receiving end, and probably those who are somewhere in the middle, not sure whether they perpetuate racism and also probably not sure whether what they've experienced is actually racism.
00:40:02.246 --> 00:40:09.885
I think whichever situation you're in, you need to interrogate yourself beyond where you see as your status.
00:40:09.896 --> 00:40:14.400
Because clearly, each of us has had their own contribution.
00:40:14.431 --> 00:40:22.041
And if you think, well, I am not racist, for example, but you see racism happening and you do nothing about it, you are not any different.
00:40:22.880 --> 00:40:34.501
If you have experienced racism and have not talked about it, the fact that you're going through it, you're not helping other people who would actually experience it because you have not spoken out.
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:51.150
So it's really asked to have a reflection and decide, you know, to do something about it, either to stop what we are doing and do something different and better, or to just get involved in the whole movement in our small ways.
00:40:51.771 --> 00:40:59.880
Then, of course, from the point of view of an organisation also, like I said, an organisation is people, it's not buildings and systems.
00:41:00.351 --> 00:41:02.780
There has to be that introspection.
00:41:02.811 --> 00:41:05.150
And the best way you can do that is to do an audit.
00:41:05.150 --> 00:41:22.090
How are you doing in all those aspects that we talked about, HR, finance, management, programs, when you are working with program participants, are you preferring a certain group over another because of race, gender, age or anything.
00:41:23.311 --> 00:41:27.320
And once you have this, suddenly it will help you understand what the gaps are.
00:41:27.320 --> 00:41:30.246
Because with the gaps, then you can really work on actions.
00:41:30.806 --> 00:41:36.715
And I do think that this way of doing things can actually apply at an individual level and also at an organisational level.
00:41:37.425 --> 00:41:40.936
And then, of course, based on that, you can develop an action plan.
00:41:40.965 --> 00:41:47.106
I have read this document, I think, by Videa or Videa, I don't know how it's pronounced.
00:41:47.416 --> 00:41:50.146
It's called Organisational Decolonisation Action Plan.
00:41:50.146 --> 00:41:55.255
It gives you questions about what questions you ask within the different layers of an organisation system.
00:41:55.255 --> 00:41:59.576
It also helps give you, you know, some of the actions that you could actually undertake.
00:41:59.826 --> 00:42:09.405
But I think the most important thing would be to develop an action plan that has very, very actionable points.
00:42:09.405 --> 00:42:26.315
That's why, like I said, it's very important to layer things, you know, what is short term, what is long term, what is high level policy, what is mid management level, what is, in our case, country level, what is at a personal level, what is at a programmatic level.
00:42:26.315 --> 00:42:35.920
Once you have this, it will make sense to people, and each one will know that they can make a contribution, but if it remains very high end, I mean, it will remain on paper.
00:42:37.880 --> 00:42:39.271
Thank you so much, Silvester.
00:42:39.291 --> 00:42:45.990
And we'll find out the details about that guidance document that you mentioned just now and link to it in the show notes.
00:42:46.701 --> 00:42:54.420
And I also think another good starting point for our listeners and viewers is Bond's Anti Racist and Decolonising Framework.
00:42:54.471 --> 00:43:09.311
I can't quite remember the title just now, but we'll link to that in the show notes as well, because that links through a whole set of questions that people can ask from the board level right down to the policy program and comms level of an organisation.
00:43:09.880 --> 00:43:13.041
So I'd like to thank you, Silvester, for joining us today.
00:43:13.050 --> 00:43:19.731
You've led us through some very interesting discussions and sensitive reflections on this issue.
00:43:20.161 --> 00:43:21.351
So, thanks again.
00:43:21.351 --> 00:43:22.867
Thanks a lot, Kate, for having me.
