WEBVTT
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.439
Hey Rob, good to see you, man.
00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:02.399
How's it going?
00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:04.400
Good, good, good, good.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:10.480
So I um yesterday I have a deadlift story for you, which is thank goodness.
00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:19.280
That went that yesterday, I was like, I am going to hit my 445 double or else.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:21.359
And guess what?
00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:23.679
I learned what or else means.
00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:32.560
So I blew out my back uh uh on the second one, I will say.
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:34.240
Almost I almost got it.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.880
But it's good because good for two reasons.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:47.840
One is that um it means I was really trying, which you know, if you're not if you're not really pushing it to the edge, you're like, am I could I be doing like way more?
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:49.039
The answer is no.
00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:50.719
Very much not.
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:52.799
I couldn't even be doing what I was doing.
00:00:53.039 --> 00:01:01.119
Um and a second thing I've learned is you know what the cure for blowing out your back with deadlifts is?
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:04.159
Uh Buffalo Bills.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.879
I have no idea.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:05.359
What is it?
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:06.560
More deadlifts.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:11.760
I did a ton of deadlifts today, and I've done so many deadlifts, and my back feels great.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.640
It's insane.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:13.840
I didn't, I don't know.
00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:14.959
I have no idea.
00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:20.879
Um, so so this is not a medical medical disclaimer.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.400
Um but I feel great.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:25.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:30.959
Please, please do not misconstrue us as understanding physiology in a meaningful way.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:38.159
Or uh this this podcast does not replace the relationship that you have with your personal care provider or medical provider.
00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:46.560
Also, I haven't been to a doctor in like six years and it's becoming a problem, but uh that's a this is very much not a medical uh podcast.
00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.159
Why don't we talk about something else?
00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:49.120
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:49.680
I love it.
00:01:49.760 --> 00:02:05.280
Okay, let's uh today we're talking about me search, um, which uh any any of our listeners who are kind of like the business school type, um, it's been drilled into your brain, most likely, that me search is what you should not do.
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:11.599
And there's a um, and it's like, you know, research if it's a new word for you, research with me, take out re.
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:17.360
Um, and you're just basically like looking inside yourself in order to extrapolate about a population.
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:36.479
And where it goes wrong is when you've got like a Stanford NBA who uh is like, well, you know, thinking about how do I market Walmart to you know a population, but they grew up in in Connecticut or you know, in like uh some privileged environment.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.639
And so it doesn't, I'm I don't know.
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.319
Sorry about everybody in Connecticut, like Stanford, I don't know what it was.
00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.039
This podcast is not for people in Connecticut.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.439
You stop listening right there.
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:55.840
But there's yeah, so you're you know, you're you're basically taught like don't do me search, like look at the data, understand, uh, you know, get close to the customer.
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.000
Like there's some parts of that that are that are actually good.
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:06.639
But what what you're you're coming like basically hot in the defense of a specific application of MiSearch.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:14.240
Um so maybe Rob here, why don't you just that we this is something we we I think we hinted at it in a previous podcast, maybe even the last one.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:23.039
Um why don't you give us a little bit of context on why MiSearch is on your mind and yeah, like what maybe some of the misconceptions uh uh around it are.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:32.560
Yeah, so um like just uh running into so uh I I'm trying to help a bunch of startups take off.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:39.680
And uh like most of them use the pull framework and it it works, it kind of works, and they kind of like iterate their way to it working working well.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.400
Some some some get stuck for longer, some don't.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:49.439
And so I'm always looking for ways to make like to find pull faster.
00:03:51.280 --> 00:04:06.080
And I don't know how I got down this this rabbit hole, but I but I ran into Friedrich Hayek's like book from I don't know, 60, 70 years ago, something something like that, called The Counter-Revolution of Science.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:07.840
No idea how I got there.
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.360
And it just slapped me in the face.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:25.120
Like the the book hit me like a ton of bricks because it you know, I I including a Claude summary, you can you can link to in in the in the newsletter.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:57.600
Um but it made me realize that the way that we business people look at just the the way that we see the world, the way that our uh our analytical minds approach the world or analytical uh you know tendencies is is that uh it is totally wrong for the specific uh task of figuring out what customers want or figuring out what their pull is.
00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:24.319
And so um I've just been kind of like I've been rereading and like rereading and just thinking and thinking about and and like exp and and trying to articulate this concept, and it turns out this is a concept that is either basically impossible to articulate with words, or it's above my IQ to articulate it with words.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.279
Both are equally like or like not, both are happening at the same time, yeah.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:39.040
And so, and so I'm just like I just am gonna encourage you to read the summary of high ex counter-revolution of science.
00:05:39.360 --> 00:06:04.639
Do the exercise that I suggest doing in this newsletter, which is basically to do some me search on on your own experiences purchasing and how you felt leading up to what was happening in your world, understanding the situation and how how just what your life was like, what it was like to be in your own mind leading up to a purchase.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:11.680
And if you do those things, I think you're gonna understand everything a lot better.
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:20.879
And I think you're gonna be way, way, way better at understanding customers to be able to build something they want and applying the pull framework.
00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:21.439
Yeah.
00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:26.000
We'll we'll get into an example or two of that to kind of kind of role model it.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:32.399
But basically, like the goal here, the the higher goal is uh pull is kind of abstract.
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:45.199
It can be hard to wrap your brain around like what's actually going on, and especially because it's so counterintuitive relative to you know a push method, to popular sales methodology, to everything else.
00:06:45.360 --> 00:07:01.199
And so uh, you know, I think basically you're what you're saying is this is uh the like the purpose of this this post, of this podcast, is let's give you something that's highly practical to make uh pull visceral, to make it something that you like kind of understand in your bones.
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:21.199
Um and then it's not it's not that your every single customer will go through that exact emotional experience with you, but you'll know what needs to happen or what's going on behind a purchase that motivates it, um, which will help you in you know intuit basically or recognize when you have pull and when you don't have pull.
00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.759
Um that's kind of how I'm interpreting this, Rob.
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.279
Is that the right way to think about it?
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:35.439
Yeah, it's it's a way to know what you're looking for and what it feels like to be in the customer's side.
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.079
So I'll give like two two quick stories on this.
00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:50.079
Um story one is that somebody, somebody we know, reached out to to me and was explaining how pull made sense to him.
00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:55.199
And this was months ago, and I just kind of like filed it away as something that was just an interesting anecdote.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:05.120
But he said, yeah, when I saw Pull, I started to pay more attention and think through the stories of when I had purchased something.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:21.759
And I realized that it was a much better description of my purchasing experiences of what was going on in my mind when I bought things, what was going on in my life and mind, um, than all the other descriptions out there.
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.800
So that's one side of this.
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:44.720
The other side of this is um helping a startup now with like the most kind of rational business thinker I've ever met, um, who is who is just bewildered that customers are not reacting to to what he's trying to sell to them.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:49.519
It's gonna save you so much money, and you're saying saving money is a priority.
00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.279
What is going on here?
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:58.559
And it's like, and it's because we're he's approaching this from the outside in, not actually.
00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:09.360
And so we've we've been interviewing uh uh some people who haven't bought, and I've just been doing this to try to show him like the what's going on in their minds.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:17.279
And it is just a it is a very disorienting experience for somebody who is like super rational, super like logical.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:18.080
Yeah.
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:23.519
Let's um uh one, I love feelings, and so I'm I'm glad that we're in in feeling hours.
00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.799
You're always the you were always the feelings guy, and I was always the exact opposite of this.
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.519
I I'm being dragged into this kicking and screwing.
00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:33.360
Yeah, well, welcome to my world, Ralph.
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.679
It's we we're welcoming you with open arms, and we're gonna talk about our feelings while you're here.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:46.080
Um Rob, uh it's not it's not that you're saying that analytics uh or an analytical mindset is always wrong.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.399
No.
00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.000
Um like you've you've created the case study factory.
00:09:50.159 --> 00:10:01.120
When you think about outbound, it's it's a system, there's percentages, there's, you know, like you use analytics and an analytical approach for a lot of startups.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:06.799
So when is what do you think about um an analytical mindset as being helpful?
00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:14.080
And when do you think about it as being like it's actually count, it's uh either counterproductive or not the right frame to take to a problem?
00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:23.200
Yeah, so the analytical approach is good for basically everything other than what's in the customer's mind.
00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:27.200
It's good for it's good for everything other than minds.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.919
And so the case study factory, I've finally figured out how to make people care about it.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:41.679
Um the case study factory is is a model of business that is basically the only way to grow as fast as possible.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:52.080
If you look at your business as a case study factory and think about throughput in the factory and just attack the bottleneck, there is not a faster way to grow than to do that.
00:10:52.639 --> 00:11:03.120
Because that is guaranteeing that you are focusing on the thing that's going to make your startup growing grow as fast as possible out of the infinite things that could possibly that you could possibly focus on.
00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.639
That is an analytical exercise, deeply analytical.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:16.720
And all of that works only if it like all rests on the foundation of what is in the customer's mind.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:18.559
What are they trying to do?
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:40.159
And so I think of it as there is a foundation of knowledge in in business that you have to understand the customer's mind, which is like maybe it's like one percent, maybe it's what whatever, like I don't know what percentage it is, but it is the percent that is holding up all of the other pieces.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:12:04.480
And so whether it's like you're in sales, like a lot of sales is tactics and like scripts and stuff and processes, but the most important part is not because you have to understand what's in a customer's mind, what's the difference between what's in a customer's mind when they don't buy and when they do buy, and what causes a change.
00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:05.759
How does that work?
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.679
And building a new product, right?
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.799
A lot of it is like, okay, how do we like architect the thing?
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:11.840
How do we put it together?
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.879
Like all that kind of stuff is analytical stuff.
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:17.279
And it's, you know, it can be deeply rational.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:22.159
It can be all the kind of things that that people like me, not people like you, like.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.320
Um uh um, but it all rests.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:34.320
It whether it works or not depends on what's in the customer's mind, which can't be analyzed the same way we analyze a machine.
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:51.440
Yeah, uh to me, it almost it almost feels like there's um uh like an engine that is powering the factory, and that factory is built on, or excuse me, that engine is is like the the feeling that you're trying to tap into here with uh with MeSearch.
00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:07.600
Um how do you uh Rob, you know, you write about uh having like read a bunch of sales methodology books and frameworks and blogs and like just consumed all that, and noticing that this was absent from it, but there were tactics um that were that were part of it.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:14.559
It's you know, creating urgency, it's about challenging, it's about you know, all these other uh methodologies that are their tactics.
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.120
How is that different from understanding like what's going on in a customer's mind?
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.919
Where is it the same?
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.279
Or like what, yeah, what are you doing what's the difference that you're teaching there?
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.240
Yeah, so I mean this is this is a honestly, this is a kind of realization I've had in the past couple of days.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:43.120
And I'm I am it's all downstream of like actually thinking about what Hayek is saying in the counter-revolution of science, and then realizing holy cow, this is a massive thing that is missing.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:47.759
I didn't know this was missing until this week.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.320
It's it's just so crazy to me.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:03.039
And so when you um so now when you look at like startup books and sales books and business books, what you'll see is that they take this analytical approach to customers, right?
00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:04.960
To understanding customers.
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:18.080
And so what that leads to is them describing basically customers as uh I would say annoying machines, like machine, defective machines that don't do what we want them to do.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:29.679
And so they give you, they give you kind of like these simple user manuals to the machines that are um that are like, I don't know, here's here's what worked with this stupid machine, right?
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:37.120
Like here's here's what works with this stupid machine, here's how this stupid machine works, and um it's annoying, it's kind of getting in your way.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:42.720
And so, right, like on the path to your greatness, here's how to deal with these stupid machines that you have to deal with.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:44.720
And um And so it does.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:51.200
It and like if you look at stuff, it's basically like, okay, here's how to poke at the machine, right?
00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:58.639
Like the machine really the the these machines respond well if you challenge them, right?
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:08.879
Like that's that's a um uh and and or or like you know, here's how these machines should behave.
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:09.679
You know what?
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:16.240
If if the machine sees 10x ROI, it's illogical for the machine not to to buy it, right?
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.240
That's that's like Homo economicus, right?
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:24.960
Like that's that's the kind of theory like uh theory of person as as rational uh uh you know, whatever.
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:35.039
And so all of these are just bad in bad instruction manuals for a machine when the thing we're analyzing is not a machine and can't be understood like a machine.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.879
Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:57.200
It's I have you know, I've uh I said economics in an undergrad, and then obviously through um uh through business school, it's like yeah, there there was like this this like weird way that you would talk about people, and this is probably what Hayek is getting at as an economist, but it's like there's the the rational, like when consumers behave rationally, this is what they do.
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:04.559
But there's all these instances where they behave irrationally, and and it's like, oh, you're no, you're just you're just not explaining it correctly.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.559
Like uh, right, right, right.
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:17.200
Yeah, the whole thing on like behavioral economics and all the biases and all this kind of stuff, it's like, okay, cool, we're describing a rational mind and deviations from that.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.360
None of that is actually relevant.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:27.120
Like, none of it, like this is all a kind of like path down a dumb uh down in a dumb direction.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:34.240
I promise you, if I can't describe this well, if you read Hayek, well well, Hayek is like basically impossible to read.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:47.120
If you read an AI summary of Hayek and have a conversation with your AI of choice to like dumb it down to like our levels or your level if you uh uh it it will change your view of the world.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.879
It is so useful.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.840
Awesome.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.600
Uh let's let's make this practical before we uh before we wrap Rum.
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:58.559
How should a founder do me search properly?
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.519
Like what help help pretend that I'm an idiot.
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.880
Uh pretend that I'm one of the stupid machines.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:16.319
Help help me uh like do me search in a way that you find useful and and that's gonna give me the lessons that I need in order to better sell to customers, to better design products for customers, et cetera.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.559
Yeah, so so I would just start by thinking of a big purchase that you have made.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:27.759
So I I talk about buying a Honda CRV in here, and um, and and my story of that.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:40.319
But think of a big purchase you've made and just kind of walk through the story in your own mind, what it was like, what your situation was, how it was changing, what drove you to do something versus do nothing.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.880
Like, why did you choose the thing you did choose?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:49.680
And that um the doing it with a bank purchase is often like fairly straightforward.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.279
Like, I didn't at no point did I want to buy a Honda CRV.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.839
At no point did I want to buy a car, right?
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:01.200
Like I was I was basically pushed, kicking and screaming into buying a car.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:09.759
And yet, when I was at the dealership, I would have done literally anything to walk out with a Honda CRV based on the situation.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:30.160
And so, um, and so like understanding that and understanding what it felt like in the moment, in in kind of each moment along the way, when when you finally kind of got there, doing that with a big purchase, I think, is is going to be a good place to start because big purchases like are not usually that subtle in terms of why they happen.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:39.200
And then you can move to subtler and subtler purchases, and then you can start like understanding this not even for purchase things, but for actions you're taking.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.920
Like, why are you listening to this podcast right now?
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:48.480
These kinds of things you can start to get away, nobody is self-hate.
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.839
Yeah, like there's an accident, can't like the next button is broken on your iPhone.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:03.039
Um, but but like what, yeah, so and and so um just start to get into the practice of this.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:16.559
It will help you understand the pull framework, but really like the thing that's underneath the pull framework, the thing I've trying to describe with the pull framework, which is more important than the framework itself.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:17.039
Yeah.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:34.880
You know, and um one area that I've specifically learned by doing this kind of thing is like when I when I purchase things for my business, you know, there's there's all like this theory of like ROI is required, like you have to build a business case for all of these things, and you've you have to, you know, it has to be a pain point.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:46.480
Frequently when I'm buying a um what I'm actually making a transaction for a Cumbra or increasingly with with you and me, I'll reflect, I'll be like, I never thought about ROI.
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.640
I never like this wasn't a pain point.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.240
Like it's it's it's like, but there was something happened that triggered it.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:57.599
And then I'll and then I'll like pause and be like, okay, what what happened and what did I do as a result of that?
00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.720
Like, where did I look for?
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:08.240
What what if somebody would have just like magically appeared in front of me with and said magic words, what would have been those words that would I would have been like, oh yeah, like give me that.
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.519
I'll you know, just like let's get this out of the way and and purchase.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:31.119
Um, and that's it's you know, both in my personal life, you know, you mentioned the CRV, but then also like buying on behalf of a business, um, you know, and and and because we sell more in in the BB space, um, like has helped me empathize or like better understand like what's likely going on on the purchasers, like journey and background and what's going on in their head.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.680
Um, Rob, any other advice?
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:41.359
Like what uh I think that what should founders do about this is like just start implementing this like kind of me search reflection in their lives.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:21:00.640
Anything else that you'd say, you know, customer or actually one thing you brought up is going back, and if this is not natural to you, I love the tactic of reach out to some folks that you thought were going to purchase and see if they'll just give you 15 minutes um and just like talk you through, like, hey, I thought this was a really good fit.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.160
You told me it was a good fit.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:03.279
Why didn't you buy?
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:04.319
Like, be honest with me.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.519
You know, like I'll frequently say, like, throw cold water on my face.
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.079
Like, you know, help that's the thing I need right now.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:15.279
Um, any anything, or I don't know if you'd think about that, or anything else you'd say founders could could do right now.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.480
Yeah, oh that that exercise is fascinating.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:33.279
Because what you realize is that you had constructed some sort of like a logical argument in your head, and it's you know, and it's like, you know, it's this small, and you you just zoom out and see that the logical argument wasn't relevant in the context.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.960
And so, um, and so yeah, highly recommend doing that.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.839
Highly recommend just like starting to notice this in your own life.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:54.480
It's uh it's going to teach you things about yourself and your own mind that you might not like, uh, but it's still very worth doing because it's going to get you closer to um right.
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.559
Like you can't I don't I can't understand what's in your mind.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.960
That's Adam Smith's theory of moral sentiments.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:02.640
Like, I I cannot understand that.
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.160
I cannot feel what you are feeling.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:19.680
It's it's it's but I I all I do that by analogy, by imagining myself in your situation and seeing how you behave and then seeing if that makes sense to me, and then kind of like adjusting.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:24.400
And that's that's his whole, that's like the whole foundation of the theory of moral sentiments.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.759
And so this is a thing that's been around for for a while.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:42.000
I think Hayek would argue that we've bludgeoned this kind of thinking out of business of of the social sciences by a couple French people in the post uh post-revolutionary France.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:43.119
Uh that used to be.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:45.599
This podcast is not for people in Connecticut.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.680
It's also not for French people, just like in Coton.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.480
Even though, even though I'm I'm French, uh uh no.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:23:10.000
Uh so uh but yeah, no, I I think it's um this is this is a thing worth doing, and and hopefully this is a trigger for you to do it because it's very easy for people with the analytical mind, with the logical mind to um or with the tendencies uh to to avoid doing this.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:11.119
Yeah, awesome.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:11.839
All right, perfect.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.799
Well, let's keep this one shorter and uh we'll wrap for today.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:22.640
Um and if you're interested in in working with Rob or if you want information about yeah, whatever we oh, quick quick teaser.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:33.599
We've got a uh PMF camp that we're gonna be launching here in uh little more than a month, something like a something like a month, but we'll get more concrete details out to folks soon.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.000
Um, anyways, we'll see folks soon.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.039
Take care.
00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.439
Hey Rob, good to see you, man.
00:00:01.520 --> 00:00:02.399
How's it going?
00:00:02.879 --> 00:00:04.400
Good, good, good, good.
00:00:04.639 --> 00:00:10.480
So I um yesterday I have a deadlift story for you, which is thank goodness.
00:00:10.800 --> 00:00:19.280
That went that yesterday, I was like, I am going to hit my 445 double or else.
00:00:20.079 --> 00:00:21.359
And guess what?
00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:23.679
I learned what or else means.
00:00:28.239 --> 00:00:32.560
So I blew out my back uh uh on the second one, I will say.
00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:34.240
Almost I almost got it.
00:00:34.399 --> 00:00:36.880
But it's good because good for two reasons.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:47.840
One is that um it means I was really trying, which you know, if you're not if you're not really pushing it to the edge, you're like, am I could I be doing like way more?
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:49.039
The answer is no.
00:00:49.920 --> 00:00:50.719
Very much not.
00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:52.799
I couldn't even be doing what I was doing.
00:00:53.039 --> 00:01:01.119
Um and a second thing I've learned is you know what the cure for blowing out your back with deadlifts is?
00:01:01.759 --> 00:01:04.159
Uh Buffalo Bills.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:04.879
I have no idea.
00:01:04.959 --> 00:01:05.359
What is it?
00:01:05.680 --> 00:01:06.560
More deadlifts.
00:01:06.640 --> 00:01:11.760
I did a ton of deadlifts today, and I've done so many deadlifts, and my back feels great.
00:01:11.920 --> 00:01:12.640
It's insane.
00:01:12.799 --> 00:01:13.840
I didn't, I don't know.
00:01:14.000 --> 00:01:14.959
I have no idea.
00:01:15.200 --> 00:01:20.879
Um, so so this is not a medical medical disclaimer.
00:01:22.000 --> 00:01:24.400
Um but I feel great.
00:01:24.719 --> 00:01:25.519
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:25.680 --> 00:01:30.959
Please, please do not misconstrue us as understanding physiology in a meaningful way.
00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:38.159
Or uh this this podcast does not replace the relationship that you have with your personal care provider or medical provider.
00:01:38.560 --> 00:01:46.560
Also, I haven't been to a doctor in like six years and it's becoming a problem, but uh that's a this is very much not a medical uh podcast.
00:01:46.719 --> 00:01:48.159
Why don't we talk about something else?
00:01:48.480 --> 00:01:49.120
Yeah, yeah.
00:01:49.200 --> 00:01:49.680
I love it.
00:01:49.760 --> 00:02:05.280
Okay, let's uh today we're talking about me search, um, which uh any any of our listeners who are kind of like the business school type, um, it's been drilled into your brain, most likely, that me search is what you should not do.
00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:11.599
And there's a um, and it's like, you know, research if it's a new word for you, research with me, take out re.
00:02:11.840 --> 00:02:17.360
Um, and you're just basically like looking inside yourself in order to extrapolate about a population.
00:02:17.520 --> 00:02:36.479
And where it goes wrong is when you've got like a Stanford NBA who uh is like, well, you know, thinking about how do I market Walmart to you know a population, but they grew up in in Connecticut or you know, in like uh some privileged environment.
00:02:36.639 --> 00:02:38.639
And so it doesn't, I'm I don't know.
00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:42.319
Sorry about everybody in Connecticut, like Stanford, I don't know what it was.
00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:45.039
This podcast is not for people in Connecticut.
00:02:45.199 --> 00:02:47.439
You stop listening right there.
00:02:47.599 --> 00:02:55.840
But there's yeah, so you're you know, you're you're basically taught like don't do me search, like look at the data, understand, uh, you know, get close to the customer.
00:02:55.919 --> 00:02:58.000
Like there's some parts of that that are that are actually good.
00:02:58.159 --> 00:03:06.639
But what what you're you're coming like basically hot in the defense of a specific application of MiSearch.
00:03:06.800 --> 00:03:14.240
Um so maybe Rob here, why don't you just that we this is something we we I think we hinted at it in a previous podcast, maybe even the last one.
00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:23.039
Um why don't you give us a little bit of context on why MiSearch is on your mind and yeah, like what maybe some of the misconceptions uh uh around it are.
00:03:23.439 --> 00:03:32.560
Yeah, so um like just uh running into so uh I I'm trying to help a bunch of startups take off.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:39.680
And uh like most of them use the pull framework and it it works, it kind of works, and they kind of like iterate their way to it working working well.
00:03:39.840 --> 00:03:42.400
Some some some get stuck for longer, some don't.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:49.439
And so I'm always looking for ways to make like to find pull faster.
00:03:51.280 --> 00:04:06.080
And I don't know how I got down this this rabbit hole, but I but I ran into Friedrich Hayek's like book from I don't know, 60, 70 years ago, something something like that, called The Counter-Revolution of Science.
00:04:06.479 --> 00:04:07.840
No idea how I got there.
00:04:08.159 --> 00:04:11.360
And it just slapped me in the face.
00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:25.120
Like the the book hit me like a ton of bricks because it you know, I I including a Claude summary, you can you can link to in in the in the newsletter.
00:04:25.360 --> 00:04:57.600
Um but it made me realize that the way that we business people look at just the the way that we see the world, the way that our uh our analytical minds approach the world or analytical uh you know tendencies is is that uh it is totally wrong for the specific uh task of figuring out what customers want or figuring out what their pull is.
00:04:58.160 --> 00:05:24.319
And so um I've just been kind of like I've been rereading and like rereading and just thinking and thinking about and and like exp and and trying to articulate this concept, and it turns out this is a concept that is either basically impossible to articulate with words, or it's above my IQ to articulate it with words.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:29.279
Both are equally like or like not, both are happening at the same time, yeah.
00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:39.040
And so, and so I'm just like I just am gonna encourage you to read the summary of high ex counter-revolution of science.
00:05:39.360 --> 00:06:04.639
Do the exercise that I suggest doing in this newsletter, which is basically to do some me search on on your own experiences purchasing and how you felt leading up to what was happening in your world, understanding the situation and how how just what your life was like, what it was like to be in your own mind leading up to a purchase.
00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:11.680
And if you do those things, I think you're gonna understand everything a lot better.
00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:20.879
And I think you're gonna be way, way, way better at understanding customers to be able to build something they want and applying the pull framework.
00:06:21.120 --> 00:06:21.439
Yeah.
00:06:21.600 --> 00:06:26.000
We'll we'll get into an example or two of that to kind of kind of role model it.
00:06:26.079 --> 00:06:32.399
But basically, like the goal here, the the higher goal is uh pull is kind of abstract.
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:45.199
It can be hard to wrap your brain around like what's actually going on, and especially because it's so counterintuitive relative to you know a push method, to popular sales methodology, to everything else.
00:06:45.360 --> 00:07:01.199
And so uh, you know, I think basically you're what you're saying is this is uh the like the purpose of this this post, of this podcast, is let's give you something that's highly practical to make uh pull visceral, to make it something that you like kind of understand in your bones.
00:07:01.360 --> 00:07:21.199
Um and then it's not it's not that your every single customer will go through that exact emotional experience with you, but you'll know what needs to happen or what's going on behind a purchase that motivates it, um, which will help you in you know intuit basically or recognize when you have pull and when you don't have pull.
00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.759
Um that's kind of how I'm interpreting this, Rob.
00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:25.279
Is that the right way to think about it?
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:35.439
Yeah, it's it's a way to know what you're looking for and what it feels like to be in the customer's side.
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:38.079
So I'll give like two two quick stories on this.
00:07:38.319 --> 00:07:50.079
Um story one is that somebody, somebody we know, reached out to to me and was explaining how pull made sense to him.
00:07:50.160 --> 00:07:55.199
And this was months ago, and I just kind of like filed it away as something that was just an interesting anecdote.
00:07:55.600 --> 00:08:05.120
But he said, yeah, when I saw Pull, I started to pay more attention and think through the stories of when I had purchased something.
00:08:05.360 --> 00:08:21.759
And I realized that it was a much better description of my purchasing experiences of what was going on in my mind when I bought things, what was going on in my life and mind, um, than all the other descriptions out there.
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:24.800
So that's one side of this.
00:08:25.040 --> 00:08:44.720
The other side of this is um helping a startup now with like the most kind of rational business thinker I've ever met, um, who is who is just bewildered that customers are not reacting to to what he's trying to sell to them.
00:08:44.879 --> 00:08:49.519
It's gonna save you so much money, and you're saying saving money is a priority.
00:08:49.759 --> 00:08:51.279
What is going on here?
00:08:51.440 --> 00:08:58.559
And it's like, and it's because we're he's approaching this from the outside in, not actually.
00:08:58.960 --> 00:09:09.360
And so we've we've been interviewing uh uh some people who haven't bought, and I've just been doing this to try to show him like the what's going on in their minds.
00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:17.279
And it is just a it is a very disorienting experience for somebody who is like super rational, super like logical.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:18.080
Yeah.
00:09:18.320 --> 00:09:23.519
Let's um uh one, I love feelings, and so I'm I'm glad that we're in in feeling hours.
00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:28.799
You're always the you were always the feelings guy, and I was always the exact opposite of this.
00:09:28.960 --> 00:09:31.519
I I'm being dragged into this kicking and screwing.
00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:33.360
Yeah, well, welcome to my world, Ralph.
00:09:33.600 --> 00:09:37.679
It's we we're welcoming you with open arms, and we're gonna talk about our feelings while you're here.
00:09:38.000 --> 00:09:46.080
Um Rob, uh it's not it's not that you're saying that analytics uh or an analytical mindset is always wrong.
00:09:46.240 --> 00:09:46.399
No.
00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:50.000
Um like you've you've created the case study factory.
00:09:50.159 --> 00:10:01.120
When you think about outbound, it's it's a system, there's percentages, there's, you know, like you use analytics and an analytical approach for a lot of startups.
00:10:01.279 --> 00:10:06.799
So when is what do you think about um an analytical mindset as being helpful?
00:10:06.879 --> 00:10:14.080
And when do you think about it as being like it's actually count, it's uh either counterproductive or not the right frame to take to a problem?
00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:23.200
Yeah, so the analytical approach is good for basically everything other than what's in the customer's mind.
00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:27.200
It's good for it's good for everything other than minds.
00:10:27.440 --> 00:10:31.919
And so the case study factory, I've finally figured out how to make people care about it.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:41.679
Um the case study factory is is a model of business that is basically the only way to grow as fast as possible.
00:10:43.279 --> 00:10:52.080
If you look at your business as a case study factory and think about throughput in the factory and just attack the bottleneck, there is not a faster way to grow than to do that.
00:10:52.639 --> 00:11:03.120
Because that is guaranteeing that you are focusing on the thing that's going to make your startup growing grow as fast as possible out of the infinite things that could possibly that you could possibly focus on.
00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:06.639
That is an analytical exercise, deeply analytical.
00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:16.720
And all of that works only if it like all rests on the foundation of what is in the customer's mind.
00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:18.559
What are they trying to do?
00:11:19.279 --> 00:11:40.159
And so I think of it as there is a foundation of knowledge in in business that you have to understand the customer's mind, which is like maybe it's like one percent, maybe it's what whatever, like I don't know what percentage it is, but it is the percent that is holding up all of the other pieces.
00:11:41.919 --> 00:12:04.480
And so whether it's like you're in sales, like a lot of sales is tactics and like scripts and stuff and processes, but the most important part is not because you have to understand what's in a customer's mind, what's the difference between what's in a customer's mind when they don't buy and when they do buy, and what causes a change.
00:12:04.639 --> 00:12:05.759
How does that work?
00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:07.679
And building a new product, right?
00:12:07.759 --> 00:12:10.799
A lot of it is like, okay, how do we like architect the thing?
00:12:10.879 --> 00:12:11.840
How do we put it together?
00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:14.879
Like all that kind of stuff is analytical stuff.
00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:17.279
And it's, you know, it can be deeply rational.
00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:22.159
It can be all the kind of things that that people like me, not people like you, like.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:26.320
Um uh um, but it all rests.
00:12:26.559 --> 00:12:34.320
It whether it works or not depends on what's in the customer's mind, which can't be analyzed the same way we analyze a machine.
00:12:35.279 --> 00:12:51.440
Yeah, uh to me, it almost it almost feels like there's um uh like an engine that is powering the factory, and that factory is built on, or excuse me, that engine is is like the the feeling that you're trying to tap into here with uh with MeSearch.
00:12:51.600 --> 00:13:07.600
Um how do you uh Rob, you know, you write about uh having like read a bunch of sales methodology books and frameworks and blogs and like just consumed all that, and noticing that this was absent from it, but there were tactics um that were that were part of it.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:14.559
It's you know, creating urgency, it's about challenging, it's about you know, all these other uh methodologies that are their tactics.
00:13:14.639 --> 00:13:19.120
How is that different from understanding like what's going on in a customer's mind?
00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:19.919
Where is it the same?
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.279
Or like what, yeah, what are you doing what's the difference that you're teaching there?
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:30.240
Yeah, so I mean this is this is a honestly, this is a kind of realization I've had in the past couple of days.
00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:43.120
And I'm I am it's all downstream of like actually thinking about what Hayek is saying in the counter-revolution of science, and then realizing holy cow, this is a massive thing that is missing.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:47.759
I didn't know this was missing until this week.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:50.320
It's it's just so crazy to me.
00:13:50.639 --> 00:14:03.039
And so when you um so now when you look at like startup books and sales books and business books, what you'll see is that they take this analytical approach to customers, right?
00:14:03.440 --> 00:14:04.960
To understanding customers.
00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:18.080
And so what that leads to is them describing basically customers as uh I would say annoying machines, like machine, defective machines that don't do what we want them to do.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:29.679
And so they give you, they give you kind of like these simple user manuals to the machines that are um that are like, I don't know, here's here's what worked with this stupid machine, right?
00:14:29.759 --> 00:14:37.120
Like here's here's what works with this stupid machine, here's how this stupid machine works, and um it's annoying, it's kind of getting in your way.
00:14:37.279 --> 00:14:42.720
And so, right, like on the path to your greatness, here's how to deal with these stupid machines that you have to deal with.
00:14:42.960 --> 00:14:44.720
And um And so it does.
00:14:44.879 --> 00:14:51.200
It and like if you look at stuff, it's basically like, okay, here's how to poke at the machine, right?
00:14:51.279 --> 00:14:58.639
Like the machine really the the these machines respond well if you challenge them, right?
00:14:58.799 --> 00:15:08.879
Like that's that's a um uh and and or or like you know, here's how these machines should behave.
00:15:09.039 --> 00:15:09.679
You know what?
00:15:09.840 --> 00:15:16.240
If if the machine sees 10x ROI, it's illogical for the machine not to to buy it, right?
00:15:16.320 --> 00:15:18.240
That's that's like Homo economicus, right?
00:15:18.320 --> 00:15:24.960
Like that's that's the kind of theory like uh theory of person as as rational uh uh you know, whatever.
00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:35.039
And so all of these are just bad in bad instruction manuals for a machine when the thing we're analyzing is not a machine and can't be understood like a machine.
00:15:35.279 --> 00:15:36.879
Yeah, yeah, fascinating.
00:15:36.960 --> 00:15:57.200
It's I have you know, I've uh I said economics in an undergrad, and then obviously through um uh through business school, it's like yeah, there there was like this this like weird way that you would talk about people, and this is probably what Hayek is getting at as an economist, but it's like there's the the rational, like when consumers behave rationally, this is what they do.
00:15:57.360 --> 00:16:04.559
But there's all these instances where they behave irrationally, and and it's like, oh, you're no, you're just you're just not explaining it correctly.
00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:06.559
Like uh, right, right, right.
00:16:06.720 --> 00:16:17.200
Yeah, the whole thing on like behavioral economics and all the biases and all this kind of stuff, it's like, okay, cool, we're describing a rational mind and deviations from that.
00:16:17.440 --> 00:16:19.360
None of that is actually relevant.
00:16:19.600 --> 00:16:27.120
Like, none of it, like this is all a kind of like path down a dumb uh down in a dumb direction.
00:16:27.279 --> 00:16:34.240
I promise you, if I can't describe this well, if you read Hayek, well well, Hayek is like basically impossible to read.
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:47.120
If you read an AI summary of Hayek and have a conversation with your AI of choice to like dumb it down to like our levels or your level if you uh uh it it will change your view of the world.
00:16:47.279 --> 00:16:48.879
It is so useful.
00:16:49.200 --> 00:16:49.840
Awesome.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:53.600
Uh let's let's make this practical before we uh before we wrap Rum.
00:16:53.919 --> 00:16:58.559
How should a founder do me search properly?
00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.519
Like what help help pretend that I'm an idiot.
00:17:01.679 --> 00:17:04.880
Uh pretend that I'm one of the stupid machines.
00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:16.319
Help help me uh like do me search in a way that you find useful and and that's gonna give me the lessons that I need in order to better sell to customers, to better design products for customers, et cetera.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.559
Yeah, so so I would just start by thinking of a big purchase that you have made.
00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:27.759
So I I talk about buying a Honda CRV in here, and um, and and my story of that.
00:17:28.079 --> 00:17:40.319
But think of a big purchase you've made and just kind of walk through the story in your own mind, what it was like, what your situation was, how it was changing, what drove you to do something versus do nothing.
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:42.880
Like, why did you choose the thing you did choose?
00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:49.680
And that um the doing it with a bank purchase is often like fairly straightforward.
00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:53.279
Like, I didn't at no point did I want to buy a Honda CRV.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.839
At no point did I want to buy a car, right?
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:01.200
Like I was I was basically pushed, kicking and screaming into buying a car.
00:18:01.359 --> 00:18:09.759
And yet, when I was at the dealership, I would have done literally anything to walk out with a Honda CRV based on the situation.
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:30.160
And so, um, and so like understanding that and understanding what it felt like in the moment, in in kind of each moment along the way, when when you finally kind of got there, doing that with a big purchase, I think, is is going to be a good place to start because big purchases like are not usually that subtle in terms of why they happen.
00:18:30.319 --> 00:18:39.200
And then you can move to subtler and subtler purchases, and then you can start like understanding this not even for purchase things, but for actions you're taking.
00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.920
Like, why are you listening to this podcast right now?
00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:48.480
These kinds of things you can start to get away, nobody is self-hate.
00:18:48.720 --> 00:18:53.839
Yeah, like there's an accident, can't like the next button is broken on your iPhone.
00:18:56.079 --> 00:19:03.039
Um, but but like what, yeah, so and and so um just start to get into the practice of this.
00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:16.559
It will help you understand the pull framework, but really like the thing that's underneath the pull framework, the thing I've trying to describe with the pull framework, which is more important than the framework itself.
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:17.039
Yeah.
00:19:17.599 --> 00:19:34.880
You know, and um one area that I've specifically learned by doing this kind of thing is like when I when I purchase things for my business, you know, there's there's all like this theory of like ROI is required, like you have to build a business case for all of these things, and you've you have to, you know, it has to be a pain point.
00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:46.480
Frequently when I'm buying a um what I'm actually making a transaction for a Cumbra or increasingly with with you and me, I'll reflect, I'll be like, I never thought about ROI.
00:19:46.640 --> 00:19:48.640
I never like this wasn't a pain point.
00:19:48.720 --> 00:19:52.240
Like it's it's it's like, but there was something happened that triggered it.
00:19:52.319 --> 00:19:57.599
And then I'll and then I'll like pause and be like, okay, what what happened and what did I do as a result of that?
00:19:57.680 --> 00:19:58.720
Like, where did I look for?
00:19:58.880 --> 00:20:08.240
What what if somebody would have just like magically appeared in front of me with and said magic words, what would have been those words that would I would have been like, oh yeah, like give me that.
00:20:08.319 --> 00:20:11.519
I'll you know, just like let's get this out of the way and and purchase.
00:20:11.759 --> 00:20:31.119
Um, and that's it's you know, both in my personal life, you know, you mentioned the CRV, but then also like buying on behalf of a business, um, you know, and and and because we sell more in in the BB space, um, like has helped me empathize or like better understand like what's likely going on on the purchasers, like journey and background and what's going on in their head.
00:20:31.279 --> 00:20:33.680
Um, Rob, any other advice?
00:20:33.839 --> 00:20:41.359
Like what uh I think that what should founders do about this is like just start implementing this like kind of me search reflection in their lives.
00:20:41.599 --> 00:21:00.640
Anything else that you'd say, you know, customer or actually one thing you brought up is going back, and if this is not natural to you, I love the tactic of reach out to some folks that you thought were going to purchase and see if they'll just give you 15 minutes um and just like talk you through, like, hey, I thought this was a really good fit.
00:21:00.720 --> 00:21:02.160
You told me it was a good fit.
00:21:02.319 --> 00:21:03.279
Why didn't you buy?
00:21:03.440 --> 00:21:04.319
Like, be honest with me.
00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:07.519
You know, like I'll frequently say, like, throw cold water on my face.
00:21:07.599 --> 00:21:10.079
Like, you know, help that's the thing I need right now.
00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:15.279
Um, any anything, or I don't know if you'd think about that, or anything else you'd say founders could could do right now.
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.480
Yeah, oh that that exercise is fascinating.
00:21:18.720 --> 00:21:33.279
Because what you realize is that you had constructed some sort of like a logical argument in your head, and it's you know, and it's like, you know, it's this small, and you you just zoom out and see that the logical argument wasn't relevant in the context.
00:21:33.599 --> 00:21:36.960
And so, um, and so yeah, highly recommend doing that.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.839
Highly recommend just like starting to notice this in your own life.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:54.480
It's uh it's going to teach you things about yourself and your own mind that you might not like, uh, but it's still very worth doing because it's going to get you closer to um right.
00:21:54.559 --> 00:21:58.559
Like you can't I don't I can't understand what's in your mind.
00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:00.960
That's Adam Smith's theory of moral sentiments.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:02.640
Like, I I cannot understand that.
00:22:02.720 --> 00:22:04.160
I cannot feel what you are feeling.
00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:19.680
It's it's it's but I I all I do that by analogy, by imagining myself in your situation and seeing how you behave and then seeing if that makes sense to me, and then kind of like adjusting.
00:22:19.839 --> 00:22:24.400
And that's that's his whole, that's like the whole foundation of the theory of moral sentiments.
00:22:24.640 --> 00:22:27.759
And so this is a thing that's been around for for a while.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:42.000
I think Hayek would argue that we've bludgeoned this kind of thinking out of business of of the social sciences by a couple French people in the post uh post-revolutionary France.
00:22:42.240 --> 00:22:43.119
Uh that used to be.
00:22:43.839 --> 00:22:45.599
This podcast is not for people in Connecticut.
00:22:45.680 --> 00:22:47.680
It's also not for French people, just like in Coton.
00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:50.480
Even though, even though I'm I'm French, uh uh no.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:23:10.000
Uh so uh but yeah, no, I I think it's um this is this is a thing worth doing, and and hopefully this is a trigger for you to do it because it's very easy for people with the analytical mind, with the logical mind to um or with the tendencies uh to to avoid doing this.
00:23:10.319 --> 00:23:11.119
Yeah, awesome.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:11.839
All right, perfect.
00:23:11.920 --> 00:23:14.799
Well, let's keep this one shorter and uh we'll wrap for today.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:22.640
Um and if you're interested in in working with Rob or if you want information about yeah, whatever we oh, quick quick teaser.
00:23:22.720 --> 00:23:33.599
We've got a uh PMF camp that we're gonna be launching here in uh little more than a month, something like a something like a month, but we'll get more concrete details out to folks soon.
00:23:33.759 --> 00:23:36.000
Um, anyways, we'll see folks soon.
00:23:36.240 --> 00:23:37.039
Take care.
