Embracing the Unknown: A conversation with Sue Jaye Johnson and Joe Richman (S6 | E246)

THE PLEASURE REPORT, created by writer, journalist, and filmmaker Sue Jaye Johnson, is a publication and community dedicated to investigating our relationship to pleasure. We are defining pleasure in an infinitely broad sense. We interrogate our pleasure in grief, in rage, in pain, in culture, in politics, and in our longing for a better world. Each month we have a theme.

We can experience pleasure passively, or, we can MAKE our pleasure.

Together, we will explore the tenants of pleasure: attention, awareness, sensation, and acceptance. You will learn tools, be exposed to new ways of thinking, and being in your body, in this world. We are an engaged community of pleasure researchers. I invite you to join us.

Transitioning away from full-time parenthood isn’t just about reclaiming your living room or enjoying a quieter house; it is a profound and often jarring emotional shift. Sue was incredibly candid about her own experience, describing the departure of her kids as a deeply moving process that she intentionally leaned into during an artist residency on Cape Cod. Letting go of the daily caretaking role requires us to face our own identities outside of being “Mom” or “Dad,” which can be utterly terrifying if we don’t hold space for the transition.

“It’s a little mini death, you know? It’s like a death of an era… I wanted to just feel all the feelings of it. Because I knew if I didn’t, it would come out sideways.” – Sue Jaye Johnson

One of the most challenging aspects of this new chapter is stepping back from fixing our children’s problems, a hurdle Sue and Joe tackled through an intentional practice of radical trust. They committed to trusting their younger daughter’s decisions completely for two months, consciously stopping themselves from jumping in with solutions or unprompted advice as she navigated her gap year. This wasn’t a passive withdrawal, but an active, disciplined choice to let their child fall, fail, and ultimately succeed on her own terms. It is a powerful reminder that our ultimate job is to raise capable adults, and at a certain point, our constant intervention actually hinders their magnificent growth.

What truly struck me during our conversation was how beautifully Sue Jaye and Joe balance their deep, intentional connection with a fierce sense of personal independence. They aren’t afraid to travel separately—Joe taking solo trips to explore, and Sue Jaye embarking on adventures with her girlfriends—recognizing that time apart only enriches the energy they bring back to their shared New York City apartment. This level of autonomy requires a rock-solid foundation of security and a mutual understanding that personal growth doesn’t threaten the relationship; it actively feeds it.

Joe and Jaye aren’t just navigating this territory quietly; they are actively building tools and communities for others through their initiatives like Relationship Tripping and the Love Lab. They shared incredible insights from their six-week programs, where they guide couples through the universal stumbling blocks of long-term intimacy by turning the relationship itself into a vehicle for exploration. Their approach provides a structured yet expansive way to communicate without triggering old defenses.

• The Mirror: Recognizing that your partner reflects your own inner landscape.

• The Teacher: Viewing conflicts and triggers as essential lessons for personal growth.

• Fear and Desire Practices: Creating a safe container with a timer to voice deep-seated needs without interruption.

This episode was a beautiful, raw reminder that our roles as parents don’t vanish; they just evolve into something requiring less management and more observation. Amir and I are so deeply grateful to Sue and Joe for bringing their authentic selves to the studio and breaking the conventional paradigms of aging and partnership. For anyone feeling the sting of the changing seasons in their own home, I highly encourage you to listen to this episode, check out their upcoming book, and explore their adventurous new dating events in Manhattan. The nest isn’t empty, my friends—it’s just finally wide open.

We want to provide you with support and many many resources for your own Open Nesting Journey. Our resource page has so much to offer as does our private discussion group on Facebook about queerness and other topics of interest:

Open Nesters Resource Page

The Open Nesters Private Facebook Group