The Ochelli Effect 7-10-2025 TRIBUTE Joan Mellen 1

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July ten, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing
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we call a calendar, and this is probably one of
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the last Ocelli effects that'll be live broadcast and all that,
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but I will put it on repeat, unlike the Friday
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show that I have not released and all that. This week,
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still attempting to battle PayPal and all that. And I
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may do a separate show in tonight's proceedings or tomorrow
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night about that. But I have something else to focus
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on here. Why because you know, in twenty fifteen, early
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twenty fifteen, as a matter of fact, it was the
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fifteenth day of February twenty fifteen, the Ocelli Peck went
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live for the first time. Now, I had done some
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podcasts in twenty thirteen, but I released and went live
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on a little online radio network called ucy dot TV
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back then because Jack Blood had hooked me up with
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them so I could do my first live talk show.
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Previous to that, I pre recorded stuff, I used sound clips,
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I did interesting news stuff. I didn't have guests, so
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I picked a guest from my group of friends that
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I had, and it was a friend that I had
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had for quite some time. Her name was Joan Mellon.
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She passed away this week, and we only got a
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belated announcement from people to let us know that she
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had passed away here in twenty twenty five. So, you know,
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eleven years ago, in twenty five fourteen, I had around
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as the first guest for this very radio show that
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has continued on past different networks. Became the Chuck Ocelli Show,
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briefly on an international network, you know. I was on
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the Mike Adams radio network. I was on American Freedom Radio.
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I was on a blog talk radio network. I have
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been on a lot of different networks and done this
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through my own site for over a decade as well.
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That's not serious longevity, because I studied the JFK case
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for a long time before that. I started in like
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nineteen eighty eight, when I was like, geez, let me
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think about it, fifteen or sixteen years old, and I
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was in high school, and I just wanted to debunk
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the conspiracy stuff. Really, I thought, most logically, the simplest explanation,
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Oswald probably did it, and these conspiracy people are probably crazy.
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And then I actually dug into the evidence, actually spoke
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to people. The more I did it, the more I
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learned I was on the conspiracy side, not because I
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chose it, not because I set out with that idea
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in the first place, but because that's where the evidence
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led me. Anyway, maybe ten years later, ten years deep,
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because nobody took me seriously. First I was a high
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school kid. Then I was a heavy metal musician. Then
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I was a bouncer. Then I was nobody. I was
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even homeless at one point. But you know, one way
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or another, I kept up on my JFK studies. Somewhere
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in the late nineties, and I don't remember exactly when
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it was. I started to make friends. Why because I
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had been part of mailing lists, and now I was
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part of email lists in the late nineties that allowed
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me to interact with and write to back and forth,
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and then eventually share phone numbers with people that were
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JFK researchers, authors that were working on books, people that
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were working on documentaries, et cetera, et cetera. They dug
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into the community that was very similar to the thing
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that Vince Silandry, an adult in my house, had gotten
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on Vince Landria's mailing list. I took over for them,
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and we used to staple things together and literally send
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paper to one another in the mail. But anyway, later
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on in the email convention that went down and I
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had a completely different email address, was not called the
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blind JFK researcher just yet, although people used to joke
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and refer to me as that, because anytime I had
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been seen, I was always seen with magnifying glasses, hanging
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off my neck, out of my pockets, you name it.
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So I was the blind guy examining documents and contributing
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to different group efforts. And I was in New Jersey mostly,
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although I did move to Connecticut at one point, to
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New York, and a couple of points I moved to
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California briefly, etc. Etc.
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Etc.
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But in Jersey there was a small group of people
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that eventually you would wind up getting in contact with
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because you were in Jersey, you got in touch with
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people in New York. And then people came to New York.
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Sometimes they came to New York to study Malcolm X,
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and they ran into JFK people and we got together.
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Sometimes we discussed watergates. Sometimes we discussed deep politics in
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America in general, the corrupt system, the gangster state, you
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name it. Mostly left wing type people to be honest
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with you back then. But the strange thing was I
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was suddenly kind of taken seriously by certain authors who
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would talk to me about things, ask me questions, ask
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me for advice, get contact information, and I freely shared
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things with a lot of people. Joan Mellon was one
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of those people, and she didn't ask for much from me.
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She would get rather short with me. She was kind
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of rude, really, but after a little while we started
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to get friendly on the phone. I think she liked
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my voice. And everybody that had contact with me back
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in the late nineties in the early two thous they
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all had these weird ideas about who I was, even
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if they had seen me at different get togethers like
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in two thousand and three when I went to the
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WET conference and whatnot, or when I went to Dallas,
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Texas in the nineties. I didn't go to daily Plaza,
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by the way, but just went around to talk to
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the people that I had painstakingly arranged appointments with to
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interview them, including Henry Wade and other people that were
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witnesses that were part of the case, that were players
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that were participants. Anyway, put all of that aside. In
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the late nineties, I did start to get friendly with
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Joan Mellon, and then in the early two thousands it
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intensified a bit. Now Walt Brown thought I was some
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kind of old man because he had always heard about
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my poor vision and assumed it was a matter of age.
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And I didn't meet him until about two thousand and
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two or something like that, just before the WET conference, which,
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by the way, Walt went to the WEC conference, and
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so did Joan, but I only went for one day,
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and they didn't know me that well. Though they had
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seen me. People saw me, but they didn't know exactly
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who I was, because I only worked with certain people. Anyway.
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That's a discussion for another day. But talking to Joan
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on the phone, she had an idea about me. Walt
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thought I was some sort of old man because of
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the magnifying glasses and the idea that I was kind
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of becoming known as the blind JFK researcher guy. And
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Joan had a different impression. And I've never said this
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publicly before, but Joan, I think, was kind of hitting
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on me a little bit because she thought somehow in
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her mind, I was probably age appropriate and one of
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her contemporaries. By the way I spoke, other people thought
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that I was a much deeper seasoned investigator, researcher, academic, etc.
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Until they actually got to know me and found out
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that I was nothing more than a high school graduate
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from New Jersey who had some street smarts and not
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much else. But the maturity levels to people were open
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to interpretation. And to be clear, I mean, you know,
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in nineteen ninety two, I turned twenty, right, so I
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was less than thirty years old, and Joan was already
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in advanced age by then. You know, she was old
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enough to be my mother, right. Anyway, she started kind
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of hitting on me until the one day a weird
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conversation took place and she kind of did the whole
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year nothing but a baby.
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Because of my age.
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Thing came out of her mouth, and her attitude and
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mood changed with me. She was no longer slyly, almost
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kind of hitting on me in a weird way. And
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I think she was hitting on me oddly because she
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sort of liked guys that were a little oddballish, that
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were a little unconventional, it seemed to me. And she
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kept her personal life pretty well shielded when she did
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JFK research stuff, So you'd have to know her personally,
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and I did because I didn't live too far away
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from a Remember New Jersey is a very small state,
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so she lived in the western part of the state.
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I lived in the eastern part of the state. And
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again in a small state, it was a skinny small state. Nonetheless,
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you could drive across the entire state in certain parts
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in forty five minutes, in some places in an hour,
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and then I think the deepest part of Jersey you
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could go from the Atlantic Ocean to the western border
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in probably an hour and twenty Anyway, small state, but
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we didn't get together. I think I screwed that up
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by letting her know exactly how old I was at
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one point, inadvertently, not intentionally, but anyhow, her attitude changed
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with me about the personal part of it. But she
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was still respectful of me, asked me questions, sometimes asked
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advice when she was in the midst of figuring out
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what to include what not to include. This is how
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I know. She conducted twelve hundred interviews before releasing that
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Garrison book, and she knew the guy kind of now.
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There of other people have said that she had a
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more personal relationship with him, and I don't know that
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for a fact. She never quite copped to that with me.
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But anyhow, she copped to a lot of interesting things
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over the years, and she was always kind of a
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fascinating character. In fact, in a private conversation with another
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well known author in the JFK community, when I kind
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of informed them that Joan had passed, they called her
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a quote colorful personageship. And she was that loud dress
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that she wore at the WET conference in two thousand
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and three and in other presentations. She loved crazy looking dresses.
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And she was like the angry creative writing teacher at
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a private school somewhere. Except here's the real facts. She
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was a Temple University professor. And you know, she was
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the author of twenty four books that I know of
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now there's a handful of them that relate directly to
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the stuff that I was into, but also books on cinema,
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you know, politics, different things in the culture, it doesn't matter.
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In nineteen seventy two, she was awarded the Mansini, a
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Shimbun newspaper organization in Japan. This led to her to
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write five books about Japan including the waves of Genji's
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Door Japan through its cinema. Again, an expert on cinema,
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an expert on literature, and an expert on creative writing,
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and somebody who did not suffer fools very well, and
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yet this friendship with him. I was very proud of
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her when she first released A Farewell to Justice, but
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then there were issues with the editing of it, and
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she was very angry because it didn't quite come out
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the way she wanted it to. She got to upgrade it.
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And she was in an area of New Jersey called Pennington,
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which is not far from Pennsauken, which is where that
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crazy g Willaker's story happened. Anyway, it doesn't matter. In
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two thousand and four, she was awarded one of Temple
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University's a coveted Great Teacher Awards for outstanding achievement, in
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particular in the graduate program in creative writing. Okay, anyway,
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she had been given various awards. Her husband, Ralph I
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can never remember his last name, but she had a
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husband at one point and they had divorced years earlier,
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and he died of I believe Parkinson's probably twenty years
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ago now. Anyway, she wrote a book called The Battle
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of Algiers, Okay, which has been you know, quoted about
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in lots of ways about nine to eleven and the situations
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referring to that. She wrote Blood in the Water about
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the USS liberty, and I interviewed her about many of
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these things, mainly focusing on the JFK stuff, mainly focusing
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on the deep politics. But I proudly did that, and
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like I said, I selected her to be the first
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live interview, so I had somebody who's material I was
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familiar with and I was comfortable with, and I knew
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would be a serious first punch throne in the ring
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from my media experiment, somebody that was going to present
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real information studied from an independent point of view. Was
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a rare woman in the field of conspiracy type writing,
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and I thought, perfect, this is who I need. Anyway,
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our relationship continued on for many years, and we were friends,
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and I advised her and had little arguments with her
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over the years and this and that, and even at
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one point I think, now I'm a little uncertain on
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the timeline here, but I do know that at one
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point she was asking me my opinion about how to
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handle Walt Brown regarding getting a hold of some materials
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she needed for that book. Faustian bargain about you know
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Mac Wallace, and she went in with the intent of
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laying out once and for all, here's Mac Wallace, the
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unknown JFK Assassin, because people had gotten her to take
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that idea seriously, and when she studied it and found
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that the fingerprint was bogus and been published it, it
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outraged the community to a degree that people just do
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not want to hear. I even brought that up with
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Billy Celestie's grandson on the show, right, and I swe
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whereby a whole majority of what Joan has written on
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the case, she's been absolutely accurate, correct, and perfectly notable.
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If you want to get into the serious study of
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the facts, the case, the history, the people. This woman
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did the work and I appreciated it for it. Anyway,
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cutting to the chase and getting to more recent years,
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twenty twenty comes around and I'm still in contact with
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Joan off and on. I had had her on the
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show every time she published a book. I would tell her,
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I gotta have you on. I want to promote it.
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Don't care what it's about. I would love to read
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it first, but let's talk about it, and I would.
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I would get a book, I'd get it from her publisher,
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I would buy it, I would acquire it. It didn't matter.
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Sometimes she would send them to me, and sometimes she forgot.
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And that was just Joan. She was busy, and she
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only wanted to talk to people that wanted to be
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serious about things. Even when she participated in that thing
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with John Barber regarding the jfk assassination and Jim Garrison,
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she got angry because she felt that people were misrepresenting
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things in Garrison's history. So she wound up writing a
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whole book on that too, by the way, his life
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and times, you know, the sequel to Farewell to Justice,
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where she feels, you know, Garrison was kind of screwed
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by a lot of things that happened there In the case,
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she also turned around and decided to give people a
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full history of Jim Garrison in a biographer's way. By
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the way, Joan was an excellent biographer. And I always said,
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if I could get anybody in the world to write
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the biography about me, it would have been Joan Mellon.
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If I could have, you know, afforded her and who knows.
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Maybe I could have commissioned her for free, but I
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never asked. I didn't ask much of Joan. I did
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ask one though, for a book, because I had bought
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it three four times and people had either stolen it
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00:17:06.839 --> 00:17:10.039
or it had been lost three four times already. And
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she said something one day to me when I was
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producing a show for somebody else about don't you have
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00:17:14.400 --> 00:17:17.480
all my books? And I said, I have had all
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00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.680
your books, but I'm missing one, and I would like
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00:17:20.720 --> 00:17:22.759
it if I had one from you that was autographed,
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because she was willing to send to the host of
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the show a couple of books. So I said, you know, John,
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we've known each other for years. I'd love to get
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a book from you, but I got to give you
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my new address. She started to question me, and she
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was a skilled interrogator in a civilian way. When it
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came to getting.
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Facts out of people.
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When it came to really drilling down and instinctively digging
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in just the right spot to get out a piece
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of information, even if somebody was trying to hold it
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00:17:52.640 --> 00:17:54.640
back a little bit, she was pretty good at it.
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She dug on me, and I tried to deflect, and
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I tried to defer, and I tried to kinds of
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things to find out if I was willing to take
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the vaccine to it. I said no, and also told
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00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.359
her that I wasn't going to, and nor was anyone
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in my family going to. She flipped out on me.
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This was an extreme thing in her mind, that it
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was like an evil thing that people were not being
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vaccinated because the vaccine had just become available. In fact,
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she had a personal thing that occurred which people did
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wind up hearing about, where she called up I don't know,
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00:18:31.880 --> 00:18:35.720
a congressman, state representative, something, freaking out, literally threatening to
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00:18:35.799 --> 00:18:40.839
kill herself if somebody didn't come and give her a vaccine.
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I'm not saying that Joan was one hundred percent right
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00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:45.319
about everything in the world, and I disagreed with her
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00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:47.920
politically and socially and in a lot of different ways
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about a lot of different things. But when it came
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00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.119
to the stuff she worked on in research, she was
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usually pretty good. But we disagreed about people's personal freedoms
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and vaccination. So she swore, I will never send you
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00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:07.039
a book unless you send me your vaccination certificate. So
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I told her, I guess I'm not getting a book
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00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:17.519
and that's the way that sat. Anyway, she even requested
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00:19:17.559 --> 00:19:19.720
that I help when she wanted to do a Lancer
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00:19:19.759 --> 00:19:22.759
presentation and she was going to record remotely, because going
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00:19:22.799 --> 00:19:25.039
back to twenty fourteen, even I had to help her
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00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:26.880
with her Skype. She didn't know how to operate her
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00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:28.519
Skype at all. I mean I barely knew what I
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00:19:28.559 --> 00:19:30.319
was doing with the technology, but I knew how to
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00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.519
use Skype in twenty fourteen, and she was nervous about it,
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00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:35.400
didn't want to use it, didn't know how to use it,
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00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:38.519
And several times I ended up interviewing her over the
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00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.200
phone on the show, but the first interview I did
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00:19:41.279 --> 00:19:46.960
was on Skype. Anyhow, her issues with technology and her
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00:19:47.000 --> 00:19:52.799
issues with you know, understanding some complex things grew into
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00:19:52.839 --> 00:19:57.920
something else. But during a certain time after the vaccination fiasco,
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00:19:58.000 --> 00:20:00.480
and even before it, she had asked that I help
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00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:08.680
her do her Lancer recorded presentation via zoom, and I did.
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00:20:09.519 --> 00:20:11.759
I showed up the one time and did one with her.
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00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:14.599
I'm sure it can be found out there, or if not,
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00:20:14.960 --> 00:20:17.519
Lancer might release it, you know, or whatever, but I
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00:20:17.559 --> 00:20:22.559
know it's available. And then a couple of years later
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00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:25.000
she was going to do another one, and that was
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00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:29.240
the same year that the QA non people flooded Daly
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00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:32.279
Plaza and we're holding up signs waiting for JFK Junior
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00:20:32.319 --> 00:20:37.279
to return. Anyway, Joan had postponed and canceled, and this
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00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:39.880
was something that she did sometimes too, especially when she
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00:20:39.920 --> 00:20:44.160
was nervous about using technology. This was commonplace. And then
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00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:48.799
we me and Gabby were waiting around for her to
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00:20:48.839 --> 00:20:51.839
show up to record her presentation for Lancer a couple
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00:20:51.880 --> 00:20:55.799
of months before Lancer, and we got a message, I
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00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:57.839
am not showing up. I am sick of the people
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in the community. I see these idiots on the lawn
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00:21:00.519 --> 00:21:03.279
and QA Noon and all this, and I've had it
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00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.799
with all of you. Conferences are garbage. Anybody who participates
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00:21:07.839 --> 00:21:10.400
in them are garbage. And I'm done with it now.
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00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:13.720
Joan had presented at Lancer, had presented at many places.
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00:21:13.799 --> 00:21:16.680
In fact, I offered to be her bodyguard when she
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00:21:16.880 --> 00:21:19.960
was petrified over the threats made to her by Roger
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00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:24.119
Stone via email mostly but he threatened to do some
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00:21:24.160 --> 00:21:27.319
pretty serious harm to the woman. Told her I would
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00:21:27.319 --> 00:21:30.480
be her personal bodyguard in Dallas, Texas if she required it.
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00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:35.640
But anyway, that didn't come to pass. Roger Stone didn't
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00:21:35.640 --> 00:21:38.079
actually injure her. She did report him to the FBI
356
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:43.480
and they did nothing about it. But anyway, roger Stone
357
00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:46.440
usually seemed to get out of things even when he
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00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:47.799
seemed to do them.
359
00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:49.000
Isn't that amazing?
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00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:53.359
But that's not what this show is about today. Back
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00:21:53.400 --> 00:21:57.119
to the situation with the Lancer recording, I'm done with you,
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00:21:57.319 --> 00:22:00.960
all of you people of the community. JFK. Everything gone
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00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:03.839
because the QA non being on the lawn at Daily
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00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:08.000
Plaza that year, and she was still maintaining this angry
365
00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:10.160
retort with me about I'll give you a book when
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00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:13.839
I see your vaccination certificate. And I produced a couple
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00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:17.119
of shows and then left it alone for a little while.
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00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:21.720
Then I started to notice that Joan was acting a
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00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:27.519
bit erradically problematically. She needed help. She was clearly declining
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00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:30.640
a little bit. And the last interview I did with
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00:22:30.680 --> 00:22:33.480
her was over this catfishing book she did Sherlock gets
372
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:38.119
catfished or whatever, and it's about her getting sucked into
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00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:43.119
some online relationship with somebody, and she writes about it
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00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:45.680
in that book. And I have that book, and I
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00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:47.920
did a show on that book on this network or
376
00:22:47.960 --> 00:22:51.400
on my little network anyway, put it out there as
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00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:53.599
I would for any Joan Mellon book, because you know what,
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00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:56.680
even if I don't agree with all of her conclusions,
379
00:22:56.680 --> 00:23:04.160
always stuff is so well written and deeply researched. Always. Anyhow,
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00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:08.559
I had her on for that she would get angry
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00:23:08.599 --> 00:23:10.960
at me and then vacillate back to not being angry
382
00:23:11.000 --> 00:23:13.880
at me. And then she sent me the wrong book.
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00:23:15.400 --> 00:23:20.880
After finally acquiescing and not getting my vaccination certificates, she
384
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:25.200
sent me the wrong book. I'll let that go. And
385
00:23:25.240 --> 00:23:27.079
then I wanted to interview her again, and I called
386
00:23:27.079 --> 00:23:28.839
her up and talked to her a little bit, and
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00:23:28.880 --> 00:23:32.000
I decided I didn't want to bring her on the air,
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00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:35.400
just like there was a time period with Jordan Maxwell
389
00:23:35.400 --> 00:23:37.000
where I could have brought him back on for one
390
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:40.720
of his last interviews, and I didn't want to do
391
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:44.920
it because Jordan didn't sound right and Joan wouldn't have
392
00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:47.240
sounded right, and she was easily set off. She got
393
00:23:47.279 --> 00:23:49.680
angry the last time she was on my show because
394
00:23:49.720 --> 00:23:51.640
I asked her a question from the chat room. She
395
00:23:51.680 --> 00:23:55.680
took it the wrong way and got angry and basically
396
00:23:55.720 --> 00:23:58.160
gave me all kinds of crap. Buy email messages for
397
00:23:58.200 --> 00:24:02.559
a couple of days, angry me. How dare your people
398
00:24:02.599 --> 00:24:09.640
even challenge me? She had clearly changed. She wasn't the
399
00:24:09.680 --> 00:24:11.559
friend of mine that was willing to make jokes and
400
00:24:11.599 --> 00:24:14.319
talk to me about the Mets. She wasn't the friend
401
00:24:14.359 --> 00:24:16.039
of mine I checked on to make sure that she
402
00:24:16.160 --> 00:24:21.000
was okay after bad storms rolled through Jersey or floods
403
00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:25.680
happened in her area. She was no longer the same person,
404
00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:29.720
but I still cared about her. I'll always respect her,
405
00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:33.039
and I'll always be happy that I got to know her. Now. Normally,
406
00:24:33.920 --> 00:24:37.119
when I do a tribute show, I bring on other
407
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:40.559
people to talk, and I played a couple of clips
408
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:43.000
of the person that I'm talking about. And I've only
409
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.119
done a handful of tribute shows, but people that were
410
00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.319
meaningful to me, I do a tribute show to them.
411
00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:51.200
And I'm sad that maybe this tribute show was coming
412
00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.240
at a time when the o'celli effect is in danger
413
00:24:55.240 --> 00:25:01.720
of ending. But I'll always be able to say that
414
00:25:01.799 --> 00:25:06.119
I knew Joan. My life was improved for it. My
415
00:25:06.240 --> 00:25:10.279
base of knowledge and my ideas about efficacy when it
416
00:25:10.319 --> 00:25:17.039
came to writing were raised by her. The bar in
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00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.599
general was raised by her, and anybody who was blessed
418
00:25:21.599 --> 00:25:26.039
to have worked with her understood her, recognized when she
419
00:25:26.160 --> 00:25:32.240
talked about Malcolm Blunt, it meant something. And look, I
420
00:25:32.240 --> 00:25:36.720
don't necessarily agreed with her that mister Beckham is so reliable.
421
00:25:38.039 --> 00:25:43.599
I don't necessarily agree with some of her characterizations of
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00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.799
some people that she got to know and others that
423
00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:51.160
she maybe got to know. And I think an incredible
424
00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:58.960
cachet of information might remain sitting in Pennington, New Jersey,
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00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:03.279
where she lived and continue to live and had trouble
426
00:26:03.319 --> 00:26:05.680
getting up and down the steps, and had trouble remembering
427
00:26:06.680 --> 00:26:12.039
appointments and everything else. Toward the end, I hope that
428
00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:20.319
she went peacefully and pleased with herself. And I will
429
00:26:20.640 --> 00:26:25.279
likely never meet another person who will be similar to
430
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:30.240
Joan Mellon. And I say that with the deepest sincerity
431
00:26:30.279 --> 00:26:33.119
and putting all of my problems aside, et cetera, et cetera.
432
00:26:34.240 --> 00:26:39.200
But with this caveat in mind, I'm going to play
433
00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:43.799
part of, if not the whole thing. I'll make a
434
00:26:43.839 --> 00:26:49.319
determination of the very first interview that was conducted live
435
00:26:49.480 --> 00:26:54.880
on The Ocelli Effect with Joan Mellon on February fifteen,
436
00:26:55.880 --> 00:26:59.039
twenty fourteen, and maybe I'll pause it and make commentary.
437
00:26:59.079 --> 00:27:01.799
Maybe I won't know. I'm gonna just play this by here.
438
00:27:02.880 --> 00:27:07.599
I've got another piece of another interview that I selected randomly,
439
00:27:08.720 --> 00:27:11.400
But it's an interesting treasure trove of stuff that I
440
00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:14.160
talked to Joan Mellon about over the years on this show.
441
00:27:15.680 --> 00:27:19.920
And it makes me regret not having recorded all of
442
00:27:19.960 --> 00:27:23.839
my phone calls with her and stuff, because man, I
443
00:27:23.839 --> 00:27:27.440
would have some wild stuff there. Matter of fact, I'll
444
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:31.599
never forget the first time when the Judy Baker story
445
00:27:31.759 --> 00:27:34.319
was like catching fire in the JFK community and I
446
00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:38.480
brought it to Joan and I said, jump, this Judy
447
00:27:38.559 --> 00:27:42.799
Baker thing is such bs. What in the hell can't
448
00:27:42.839 --> 00:27:45.720
you say something about it? I won't even dignify that
449
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.680
with a response. You know, I interviewed twelve hundred people
450
00:27:48.680 --> 00:27:51.480
involved in the New Orleans situation, and I've got to
451
00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:55.160
tell you not one of them ever mentioned her because
452
00:27:55.200 --> 00:27:59.480
she wasn't there. I said, well, that's a good way
453
00:27:59.519 --> 00:28:01.759
to put it in any but yeah, she doesn't exist
454
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:06.680
because it's fan fiction. I get it. But Joe didn't
455
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:09.039
even want to dignify it with a response. For years
456
00:28:09.039 --> 00:28:14.720
and years and years that I kind of held against
457
00:28:14.759 --> 00:28:19.480
her a little, but I hold nothing against her now.
458
00:28:21.440 --> 00:28:25.200
Kind of wish she had a longer lifespan and sort
459
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:29.839
of regret that I wasn't more age appropriate for because
460
00:28:29.839 --> 00:28:32.880
she had one of the most intelligent and creative minds
461
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:37.200
that I'd ever encountered. Among all the authors I've spoken to, men, women,
462
00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:44.759
any topic, you name it, she was unique and I
463
00:28:44.799 --> 00:28:54.599
appreciate unique, and, like to quote another great wordsmith, a
464
00:28:54.680 --> 00:29:00.480
colorful personage is no longer among us. So with that
465
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:03.079
in mind, I'm going to play at least part of
466
00:29:03.119 --> 00:29:08.839
the interview from the beginning of February twenty twenty fourteen.
467
00:29:08.880 --> 00:29:13.119
Excuse me, February fifteen of twenty fourteen, the day after
468
00:29:13.200 --> 00:29:16.920
Valentine's Day, the first time the Ocell Effect went live
469
00:29:16.960 --> 00:29:20.200
on ucy dot TV. And the funny thing is I
470
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:23.759
had no idea what I was doing, barely understood how
471
00:29:23.759 --> 00:29:26.559
to use Skype, didn't know how to do a broadcast
472
00:29:26.640 --> 00:29:28.839
or make my own recordings or anything. I mean, I
473
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:32.559
knew how to make recordings, but believe me, nothing like
474
00:29:32.559 --> 00:29:36.839
the level I understand today, and the technology existed then
475
00:29:36.920 --> 00:29:39.519
to do everything I do now, I just didn't know
476
00:29:39.559 --> 00:29:42.119
how to do it. So I got on a network
477
00:29:42.319 --> 00:29:45.319
like my other friends did, one of the alternative media networks,
478
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:48.119
a small one, but I was proud. I was happy,
479
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:51.400
and I was only doing my show once a week
480
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:56.119
on Saturdays. Anyway, all of that aside. This is the
481
00:29:56.119 --> 00:29:59.559
first live broadcast of The Ocelli Effect from ucy dot
482
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:07.640
TV on February fifteen of twenty fourteen, with Joan Mellon,
483
00:30:08.359 --> 00:30:12.519
the author of Faustian Bargain, the author of a Farewell
484
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:15.720
to Justice, Blood in the Water, and a great many
485
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.599
books which you're going to see on the graphic for
486
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:20.519
this podcast. And who knows, maybe I'll just release the
487
00:30:20.680 --> 00:30:25.799
raw interview again from twenty fourteen, or maybe I'll do parts.
488
00:30:25.839 --> 00:30:27.759
Maybe I'll do a second part to a tribute, because
489
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.000
I don't want to make these too long. But I've
490
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.720
already talked at you for a half hour. Let's hear
491
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:36.759
what it sounded like. Eleven years and.
492
00:30:36.759 --> 00:30:52.119
A couple of months ago, at the age of nineteen,
493
00:30:53.319 --> 00:30:55.039
she was an intern.
494
00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:58.279
At the White House.
495
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:01.119
Kick.
496
00:31:04.119 --> 00:31:06.759
By the way, here's a funny note. Just really quickly,
497
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:10.400
I recorded and mixed a whole intro, and it took
498
00:31:10.480 --> 00:31:16.000
me like hours to do and I sent a couple
499
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:22.359
of versions to the network to be played automatically before
500
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:26.119
my show aired. This was the wrong version of my intro.
501
00:31:28.759 --> 00:31:31.480
This was the early mix that I made to give
502
00:31:31.519 --> 00:31:34.400
them an idea what I was gonna do before I
503
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:38.680
actually gave him the finished intro. That's me on guitar.
504
00:31:38.839 --> 00:31:41.720
That's a guy named Jay Batistoni on drums. That's from
505
00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:46.400
nineteen ninety two. That recording mixed with one of my
506
00:31:46.480 --> 00:31:49.759
YouTube videos, audios and some other mess that I just
507
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.440
threw together to give them an idea what I wanted
508
00:31:52.480 --> 00:31:55.480
to do, and they played the rough version of my
509
00:31:55.599 --> 00:31:59.319
intro instead of the whole intro. Anyway, here it is
510
00:31:59.359 --> 00:32:02.799
as it was in twenty fifteen. Again twenty fourteen, excuse me.
511
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:08.720
Trebulary fifteen of twenty fourteen, with author Joe.
512
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:12.160
Getting a little look at Jackie's bedroom. Particularly was supposed
513
00:32:12.200 --> 00:32:14.079
to be a baby due league, and she had been
514
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:17.720
and you retind during the three definition stuff there and
515
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.160
that's where they had sex one time they had sex,
516
00:32:20.240 --> 00:32:22.000
and the swimming pool and they had sex, and you
517
00:32:22.119 --> 00:32:25.079
there in the third plays and oh, she thinks she
518
00:32:25.160 --> 00:32:27.279
was special. I'm very sure that he was good to
519
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:29.240
say he was white and all. But I was special,
520
00:32:29.519 --> 00:32:32.119
you know, you know, I was whatever, and I wasn't
521
00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:33.000
the kind of girl.
522
00:32:33.039 --> 00:32:35.000
Was a bad girl, but I became a bad girl.
523
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:39.279
Jamething influenced me. Deear deear wood with a dirty thirty
524
00:32:39.359 --> 00:32:39.799
old man.
525
00:32:41.880 --> 00:32:42.119
You know.
526
00:32:43.079 --> 00:32:47.960
At one point she says that I see I think
527
00:32:47.960 --> 00:32:50.559
in the game she was introduced to him like eight
528
00:32:50.640 --> 00:32:52.960
powers kind of you know, put the introduction together and
529
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.200
had go swimming with him. And then later on.
530
00:32:56.960 --> 00:33:00.079
She tells a story about half Kennedy wants sort of
531
00:33:00.119 --> 00:33:00.759
day power.
532
00:33:00.920 --> 00:33:04.640
She was, you know, this more straight laced specialist system.
533
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.599
You know, Hey, don't help my friend relax this constuff.
534
00:33:08.920 --> 00:33:13.240
This was pretty interesting viewing. And you know, we have
535
00:33:14.720 --> 00:33:18.240
all these situations. I'd love to know why it takes fifteen.
536
00:33:17.960 --> 00:33:20.079
Years, you know, for.
537
00:33:21.759 --> 00:33:24.440
There were nineteen year old girl to events beget introduction.
538
00:33:24.640 --> 00:33:26.039
Should these things out?
539
00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:38.920
All right? And we are live.
540
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:41.880
This is the O'Kelly effect. I am Chuck o'chelly, also
541
00:33:42.000 --> 00:33:45.319
known as the blind JFK researcher in some circles. And
542
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:49.000
this is the first live broadcast of my show. Happy
543
00:33:49.079 --> 00:33:52.240
Susan B. Anthony data all of you out there, uh
544
00:33:52.880 --> 00:33:56.440
so for our first episode. I have decided to bring
545
00:33:56.559 --> 00:33:59.480
on one of the best authors I've ever been in
546
00:33:59.599 --> 00:34:04.200
contact with in any way, shape or form, to expound
547
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:08.480
upon somebody that did what most of us really are
548
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:11.000
trying to do in our own personal lives on a
549
00:34:11.079 --> 00:34:15.039
daily basis. We all fight the system in some way
550
00:34:15.119 --> 00:34:15.400
or other.
551
00:34:18.920 --> 00:34:23.079
Damn, there is a big difference in microphones from back then.
552
00:34:23.280 --> 00:34:24.960
I'll tell you I did the best I could with
553
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:29.280
something that cost me about seven bucks and a laptop
554
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:33.039
that I barely knew how to turn on. Oof. Boy,
555
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:36.079
that sounds grating to me at this point. I have
556
00:34:36.280 --> 00:34:38.039
not listened to this, by the way, I'm listening to
557
00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:39.960
this with you guys for the first time in a
558
00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:44.239
long time. So anyway, this is the original version of
559
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:46.000
it too. This is not that I put out a
560
00:34:46.039 --> 00:34:50.440
refined re release a couple of years ago with better sound.
561
00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:52.880
I improved the sound, I worked on it everything, But
562
00:34:53.440 --> 00:34:57.719
this is the original, raw, rough cut thing. Anyway. Sorry
563
00:34:57.760 --> 00:35:01.360
to keep breaking into twenty fourteen with twenty but man,
564
00:35:01.480 --> 00:35:04.880
this is funny, Okay, please enjoy.
565
00:35:06.119 --> 00:35:09.800
We all have our arguments with the system, and we
566
00:35:09.960 --> 00:35:14.519
often focus on the officers of many courts who are
567
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:21.880
doing the misdeeds that cause all types of malfeasance to
568
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:26.480
be present throughout the criminal justice system. But today my
569
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:29.119
focus is going to be more on someone who is
570
00:35:29.199 --> 00:35:33.920
a true patriot, a gentleman that many many people, unfortunately
571
00:35:34.360 --> 00:35:38.119
have only learned about through people like Oliver Stone and
572
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.360
the movie JFK, which was based on the life and
573
00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:46.079
times in some measure of Jim Garrison, who was the
574
00:35:46.840 --> 00:35:51.440
District Attorney of New Orleans at the time of the assassination.
575
00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.679
It's a great story. And although you see that film
576
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:00.960
panned in many places as a fictional trail and a
577
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.039
fantasy and everything else, very much of that film was
578
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.280
real and Jim Garrison was a real person.
579
00:36:08.039 --> 00:36:10.960
Man, I talked too much, all right, I'm sorry about that, guys,
580
00:36:11.000 --> 00:36:15.920
but I'm playing it uncut, so apologies. Joan. It might
581
00:36:16.000 --> 00:36:19.800
not even be on the line yet. I might literally,
582
00:36:19.800 --> 00:36:21.960
because I'm live. I might be waiting for Joan to
583
00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:28.280
join and filling time for a moment we shall see.
584
00:36:29.320 --> 00:36:33.639
Anyway, in his position stood up to the system and
585
00:36:33.880 --> 00:36:36.679
the reason why, well, we're going to learn a lot
586
00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:39.920
about that today with again one of my favorite authors,
587
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:46.159
Joan Mellon, who recently released a re released excuse me.
588
00:36:46.920 --> 00:36:49.800
It's a reissue, but it's an updated version of one
589
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.559
of my favorite books that she authored, called A Farewell
590
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:57.440
to Justice, which was all about Garrison and his attempt
591
00:36:57.719 --> 00:37:02.920
and his actual accomplished of bringing the only criminal prosecution
592
00:37:03.320 --> 00:37:07.719
ever for the assassination of our thirty fifth president. Joan,
593
00:37:08.000 --> 00:37:09.679
thank you very much for joining me today.
594
00:37:09.719 --> 00:37:12.719
How are you hi, Chuck, good to hear you. Good
595
00:37:12.840 --> 00:37:15.039
luck on your show, and I'm glad to be on
596
00:37:15.800 --> 00:37:18.960
to talk about Jim Garrison. I wonder if he really
597
00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:21.880
thought that he was fighting the system. He knew he was,
598
00:37:22.000 --> 00:37:25.360
but the only thing he wanted was to find out
599
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:28.719
the truth about what happened to President Kennedy. That was
600
00:37:28.800 --> 00:37:32.719
his mission. It wasn't that this was an example or
601
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:36.239
an aspect of how he felt about the system. He
602
00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:38.599
learned about the system through trying to find out the
603
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:41.920
truth about what happened when President Kennedy was murdered.
604
00:37:43.159 --> 00:37:46.039
Yeah, he was a true believer in the system. As
605
00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:49.639
a matter of fact. Prior to that, he was someone
606
00:37:49.679 --> 00:37:52.760
who had served in wartime in a very dangerous position
607
00:37:52.880 --> 00:37:58.480
during World War Two. He was really a patriotic individual
608
00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:01.679
that believed in this country, the principles that it was
609
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:06.920
founded on absolutely completely, and he was definitely not the
610
00:38:07.039 --> 00:38:10.800
man that they have attempted to slander in the mainstream media,
611
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.679
especially at the time Stones film was released. And I
612
00:38:14.800 --> 00:38:17.280
think that that's what I mean by he was a
613
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:19.639
guy who was fighting the system, because when he found
614
00:38:19.679 --> 00:38:22.559
the truth, he had found that there was a big
615
00:38:22.679 --> 00:38:25.360
problem in the system, and he stood up with a
616
00:38:25.440 --> 00:38:28.239
lot of courage despite the fact that he was often threatened.
617
00:38:29.239 --> 00:38:32.760
He went out there and publicly and in his own
618
00:38:32.920 --> 00:38:36.159
capacity again as the District attorney there in New Orleans,
619
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.760
did what he could to bring about the truth and
620
00:38:40.119 --> 00:38:41.079
justice in this case.
621
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:45.599
He did a lot. And one of the I think
622
00:38:45.679 --> 00:38:49.320
the best document that I discovered after the publication of
623
00:38:49.400 --> 00:38:54.559
A Farewell to Justice was one from the CIA's History
624
00:38:54.639 --> 00:38:58.679
Group History Review Group, which was an internal document not
625
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:03.800
meant for shown to anyone outside the agency, which admitted
626
00:39:04.360 --> 00:39:09.239
that what Garrison surmised but couldn't prove was in fact true,
627
00:39:09.960 --> 00:39:14.679
and it says that the records reveal that clay Shaw
628
00:39:15.559 --> 00:39:22.719
was a highly paid CIA contract source. Highly paid CIA
629
00:39:22.960 --> 00:39:27.599
contract source. Now the sentence adds until nineteen fifty six.
630
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:31.760
But there's another CIA document that is more honest and
631
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:37.840
traces Shaw's service to nineteen seventy two, which is much more.
632
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:38.320
To the point.
633
00:39:39.039 --> 00:39:42.079
And I think that Garrett what Garrison struggled to prove
634
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:46.679
unfortunately came years after his death, but it shows that
635
00:39:47.199 --> 00:39:50.960
he certainly deserves a kind of respect that he still
636
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:55.079
hasn't gotten, not in the so called research community, certainly
637
00:39:55.159 --> 00:39:57.599
not in the media, mass media, any kind of media.
638
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:00.800
And I think you'd very rarely hear his name on
639
00:40:01.079 --> 00:40:06.639
cable television or network television or at assassination meetings unless
640
00:40:07.000 --> 00:40:09.760
I'm there, or all of the stone is there, or
641
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:15.079
the few people who support the Garrison were like Dick Russell,
642
00:40:15.960 --> 00:40:20.159
Jim Mars. Very few people even want to talk about Garrison.
643
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:26.440
Yeah, and you know, the fascinating thing to me has
644
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:29.280
always been that. And by the way, for those who
645
00:40:29.320 --> 00:40:31.360
don't know out there, just because you know, I'm not
646
00:40:31.519 --> 00:40:34.360
sure the level of awareness people have or if they've
647
00:40:34.400 --> 00:40:36.760
watched the film, you know, in my audience right now,
648
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:40.000
But just to get catch you guys up to speed
649
00:40:40.000 --> 00:40:42.360
a little bit, Clay Shaw was the individual that was
650
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:45.840
played by Tommy Lee Jones in the JFK movie, and
651
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.440
he was the suspect that Garrison ended up with and
652
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:55.719
actually took to trial. And many of the mainstream historians
653
00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:58.639
and even people in the research community who claim that
654
00:40:58.719 --> 00:41:02.039
they are in search of the truth often cite the
655
00:41:02.119 --> 00:41:08.559
fact that Shaw was acquitted for the murder for the conspiracy.
656
00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:12.000
But the fact is that even in the CIA's own
657
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:16.239
documents as they exist, and those documents were a lot
658
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:19.320
of them made public after the outcry from the JFK
659
00:41:19.559 --> 00:41:22.239
film just in case our listeners aren't aware of this,
660
00:41:22.960 --> 00:41:27.320
those documents themselves, in some cases prove that the Central
661
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:32.960
Intelligence Agency and other agencies within our own government directly
662
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:39.360
interfered in the investigation, in the trial so that the
663
00:41:39.440 --> 00:41:44.400
guy was hamstrung by the government that was supposed to
664
00:41:44.519 --> 00:41:48.199
be there protecting our president, was supposed to be there,
665
00:41:48.719 --> 00:41:51.480
and claiming that it was just this loan nud Oswalt
666
00:41:51.719 --> 00:41:54.079
who had gone off and done it by himself. And
667
00:41:54.199 --> 00:41:57.719
it's almost fifty years now since the Warren Commission report
668
00:41:57.880 --> 00:42:00.679
was issued. It's been fifty year and a just went
669
00:42:00.760 --> 00:42:05.119
by the assassination. But fifty years after that lie was published,
670
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:11.400
they are still in denial over the truth about what happened,
671
00:42:11.400 --> 00:42:15.320
and Garrison came very close to it, despite the fact
672
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:18.280
that he had been hindered by the very government he
673
00:42:18.440 --> 00:42:21.760
was attempting to serve.
674
00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:25.679
Well, he was attempting to serve the truth about what
675
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:28.599
happened to President Kennedy. I don't think he felt that
676
00:42:28.719 --> 00:42:31.519
he was serving the government. He was serving his constituents,
677
00:42:31.920 --> 00:42:34.679
he was serving the people of Orleans Parish, and he
678
00:42:34.920 --> 00:42:38.760
was serving the truth about what happened here to President Kennedy.
679
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:41.079
I don't think there was an early, very early on
680
00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:43.960
that he you know, he made a joke of law enforcement,
681
00:42:44.039 --> 00:42:47.440
because what happened to his investigators in New Orleans was
682
00:42:47.519 --> 00:42:50.440
that well, they in the previous cases, in most of
683
00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:54.719
their cases, they had help from other agencies of law enforcement, such.
684
00:42:54.559 --> 00:42:55.239
As the FBI.
685
00:42:55.880 --> 00:43:01.000
In the case of the Kennedy assassination, the BI obstructed
686
00:43:01.039 --> 00:43:06.400
them and did surveillance on their office, followed their investigators,
687
00:43:07.199 --> 00:43:10.639
and generally put general put out the view, as Hoover
688
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:14.239
put it down to the special agents at the field offices,
689
00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:18.519
that Garrison was quote a nut. This was Hoover's standard
690
00:43:18.599 --> 00:43:22.800
procedure for inconvenient witnesses. He said the same thing about
691
00:43:22.840 --> 00:43:29.199
Sylvia Odio, who witnessed whom Oswoald visited, calling himself Leon
692
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:33.360
Oswald with Angelo Morgato and Bernardo de Torres at the
693
00:43:33.480 --> 00:43:36.760
end of September in nineteen sixty three, And just to
694
00:43:36.880 --> 00:43:39.760
refresh the audience memory if you don't know about the incident,
695
00:43:39.880 --> 00:43:43.360
these three people, two of them were Cuban and they
696
00:43:43.400 --> 00:43:47.800
came there supposedly collecting funds for their organization or whatever.
697
00:43:48.440 --> 00:43:50.960
And then a day or two later, one of them,
698
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:55.559
Bernardo de Torres, called himself Leopoldo told Sylvia Odio, you
699
00:43:55.679 --> 00:43:58.480
know that Leon Oswald. He keeps talking about how some
700
00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:01.960
Cuban should kill President Kennedy because of what he did,
701
00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:05.159
his abandonment of the people at the Bay of Pigs,
702
00:44:05.199 --> 00:44:06.199
which which he did do.
703
00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.360
He did abandon the people at the Bay of Pigs.
704
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:14.400
And so Sylvia Odeo, who was so terrified, she did
705
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:18.320
testify that she saw Oswald, but was very reluctant and never,
706
00:44:18.480 --> 00:44:21.880
I think, I think she's still alone, never has identified
707
00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:24.679
the two Cubans who came to her door. But that
708
00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:26.360
was very hard work that I did.
709
00:44:26.760 --> 00:44:27.159
I did that.
710
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:30.639
Nobody wants to believe me. I think it's very funny
711
00:44:30.679 --> 00:44:33.480
that Chuck, you should mention that today is Susan B.
712
00:44:33.719 --> 00:44:37.039
Anthony Day, because I think I never think about this,
713
00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:40.920
but some lately I've been thinking about whether a woman
714
00:44:41.079 --> 00:44:44.639
researcher in this field gets the same level of respect
715
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:48.400
and has taken as seriously as the men. No matter
716
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:52.199
what the what the research is, no matter what you've done,
717
00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:56.960
there's a there's that shadow, that cloud over being a woman,
718
00:44:57.000 --> 00:45:01.119
because I can't understand why people have not race this research,
719
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.199
in particular about who visited Sylvia Odio. And I'm absolutely
720
00:45:05.280 --> 00:45:08.159
positive because I met one of them. That's Angelo Morgado,
721
00:45:08.519 --> 00:45:12.000
and he told me that it was Bernardo Detores who
722
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:14.840
was with him. And he looked at me and he
723
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:17.639
was staring into the middle distance, sort of as if
724
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:20.599
he were talking to himself, and he was trying to blame.
725
00:45:20.639 --> 00:45:23.440
He loved the Kennedys. He changed his name even to
726
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:27.039
Angelo Kennedy. He loved the Kennedys. And here he is,
727
00:45:27.239 --> 00:45:30.440
somehow participating in a frame up and a lead up
728
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.280
to the assassination of President Kennedy was horrified by this
729
00:45:34.760 --> 00:45:37.239
and he just sat there looking as years and years later,
730
00:45:37.320 --> 00:45:40.639
after all, this was in the nineteen nineties, it was
731
00:45:40.760 --> 00:45:43.320
in the two thousands. I can't recall when that interview was.
732
00:45:43.360 --> 00:45:45.880
It's in the book. But he just stood and stared
733
00:45:45.920 --> 00:45:50.079
into the middle distance and said, but his brother was
734
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:54.320
running for mayor of Miami, meaning that Bernardo de Torres
735
00:45:54.480 --> 00:45:57.760
was respectable, that there was no reason to doubt him
736
00:45:58.239 --> 00:46:00.800
that he would be involved in something so heinous a
737
00:46:00.880 --> 00:46:04.199
crime as the assassination of President Kennedy. And I first
738
00:46:04.280 --> 00:46:06.920
heard that, I didn't believe it. I heard it in
739
00:46:07.039 --> 00:46:10.639
nineteen ninety nine when I was interviewing a soldier of fortune.
740
00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:13.480
It was very close to these events, named Gerald Patrick Hemming.
741
00:46:13.800 --> 00:46:16.960
And of course Heny mixed the truth with the lies,
742
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:19.719
and so you know, you can't take anything. I didn't
743
00:46:19.719 --> 00:46:23.840
take anything that he said at face value without verifying
744
00:46:23.920 --> 00:46:26.000
it with others. In the first minute, I walked into
745
00:46:26.119 --> 00:46:29.880
his house. It was in Fayetteville, North Carolina, and he said,
746
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:32.639
you know, the only person I fear now, of course
747
00:46:32.679 --> 00:46:35.760
you never fear anyway. The only person I fear is Bernie.
748
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:38.480
He didn't even give me his own name, Bernie. And
749
00:46:38.559 --> 00:46:41.760
then he said, and then there was also Angelo, And
750
00:46:41.920 --> 00:46:44.320
I said, at that point, this is several years before
751
00:46:44.320 --> 00:46:48.679
I met Angela and Morgano, I said, he said, and Angela,
752
00:46:49.199 --> 00:46:53.719
I said, Angelo? Who just Angelo? He said, And he
753
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:58.000
dropped those truths in the midst of all sorts of
754
00:46:58.079 --> 00:47:02.000
other conversation about his own deal, his own problems with
755
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:04.880
the Drug Enforcement Agency, which is, of course, I have
756
00:47:05.039 --> 00:47:09.480
learned since is a pseudonym for CIA and other things.
757
00:47:09.519 --> 00:47:13.400
And then years later I discovered and he introduced me
758
00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:15.639
to Angelo and Magana. I got into his house, I
759
00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:19.159
had dinner there and we talked, and that was very
760
00:47:19.199 --> 00:47:22.079
big for me because Angelo told me, and this is
761
00:47:22.119 --> 00:47:25.000
sort of a little digression, but it talks to how
762
00:47:25.079 --> 00:47:28.800
the research is done on these how difficult the research is.
763
00:47:29.400 --> 00:47:33.360
So Angelo told me that he had been sent with
764
00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:36.320
a group of Cubans to New Orleans during the summer
765
00:47:36.360 --> 00:47:40.239
of nineteen sixty three, and they and since Oswald, who
766
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:43.039
was in New Orleans during the summer of nineteen sixty three,
767
00:47:43.199 --> 00:47:48.920
was training at Lake ponta train with anti Castro Cubans. Naturally,
768
00:47:49.159 --> 00:47:52.719
Angelo and his group became aware of Oswald, and they
769
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:54.679
went back to Bobby Kennedy and they said, you know,
770
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:58.960
there's this Oswald, And they also discovered Oswald's relationship with
771
00:47:59.079 --> 00:48:02.079
the Orleans Field Office of the FBI in New Orleans,
772
00:48:02.719 --> 00:48:07.719
and Oswald's handler was Warren to Brewis whom I got
773
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:10.320
to know quite well, also died just a few weeks ago,
774
00:48:11.039 --> 00:48:16.119
and Bobby Kennedy said, well, if the FBI has him
775
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:18.280
under control, we don't have to worry.
776
00:48:19.519 --> 00:48:19.639
Now.
777
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:20.000
That's a.
778
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.599
Quite understandable mistake, and it just shows the lack of
779
00:48:25.679 --> 00:48:30.800
communication between the agencies and how close Bobby Kennedy came
780
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:35.159
to the plot regarding his brother, because this business at
781
00:48:35.159 --> 00:48:39.800
Sylvia Odios, after all, was a part of the framing
782
00:48:39.880 --> 00:48:40.559
of Oswald.
783
00:48:41.280 --> 00:48:44.239
And in September, right and a couple of little catchups
784
00:48:44.280 --> 00:48:46.719
for our audience here, Sylvia Odio, to put her in
785
00:48:46.800 --> 00:48:53.079
proper context, was the daughter of a Cuban person who
786
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:57.159
her father. Let me restate that her father was at
787
00:48:57.320 --> 00:49:00.159
the time that this was occurring in prison, and I
788
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.119
believe in Cuba because he had stood up in some
789
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:08.639
way or had been considered a subversive by Castro's government.
790
00:49:09.159 --> 00:49:12.440
And these guys that you're talking about approaching her were
791
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:16.280
the two Cubans and this Oswald character, which to this day,
792
00:49:16.400 --> 00:49:19.599
in my mind, it's very difficult to discern because I
793
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:22.639
didn't get to speak to these guys that you're talking
794
00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:25.639
about myself, but it's very difficult to discern whether it
795
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:28.960
was actually Oswald, or if it was simply part of
796
00:49:29.719 --> 00:49:32.639
a cover story where somebody was using the name Oswald.
797
00:49:32.920 --> 00:49:34.920
I had trouble with that myself. You might be able
798
00:49:34.920 --> 00:49:36.000
to shed some light on it, Noll.
799
00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:39.320
I think, Chuck that you have to. I'm going to
800
00:49:39.360 --> 00:49:43.079
go by Sylvia Odio's own identification that when Oswald was
801
00:49:43.159 --> 00:49:47.199
arrested in Dallas for the murder of President Kennedy and
802
00:49:47.280 --> 00:49:50.840
she saw him on television, she actually faked it. And
803
00:49:51.840 --> 00:49:54.519
that's the man, that's the person who came to see you. Right,
804
00:49:54.800 --> 00:49:58.280
What better identification, what more could you need? It was Oswald,
805
00:49:58.320 --> 00:50:01.599
all right? And it and if the very fact that
806
00:50:01.679 --> 00:50:04.559
Angelo Morgato had known him already before in the summer
807
00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.920
of nineteen sixty three in New Orleans also suggests it
808
00:50:08.039 --> 00:50:11.159
was os Well. Bernardo de Torres was a person who
809
00:50:11.639 --> 00:50:13.920
was going to be at daily plausas. And this, of
810
00:50:14.000 --> 00:50:17.840
course I can't prove because I couldn't talk to Bernardo Detoris.
811
00:50:17.880 --> 00:50:19.840
He had been out of the country and then he
812
00:50:19.920 --> 00:50:23.360
has returned to Miami. But I was told that he
813
00:50:23.679 --> 00:50:29.960
requires money to talk to researchers or interviewers, and that's
814
00:50:30.079 --> 00:50:33.360
just against the principle of independent research is to pay
815
00:50:33.719 --> 00:50:36.239
people for talking, and so I'm not a single person.
816
00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:39.480
I interviewed more than a thousand people over these seventy
817
00:50:39.559 --> 00:50:42.239
eight years that I did a farewell to justice, and
818
00:50:42.360 --> 00:50:44.920
I didn't give a nickel to one of them, because
819
00:50:45.039 --> 00:50:46.840
that's just not what you're supposed to do.
820
00:50:47.920 --> 00:50:48.119
See.
821
00:50:48.159 --> 00:50:52.320
I'm nervous here because a lot of times in private conversations,
822
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:58.159
Joan would correct me if I misspoke. And this is
823
00:50:58.239 --> 00:51:01.280
a little rough because she she would correct me if
824
00:51:01.280 --> 00:51:03.400
I misspoke. So I'm being very careful about the way
825
00:51:03.400 --> 00:51:07.519
I'm wording things, and yet I'm trying to strategically set
826
00:51:07.599 --> 00:51:12.559
her up for different lines and different things that are
827
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:16.960
happening here. So we're almost an hour into this, and
828
00:51:17.400 --> 00:51:19.159
I think I'm gonna have to make a two part
829
00:51:19.320 --> 00:51:23.920
Joan Mellon tribute and I'm going to continue to play
830
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:27.960
this stuff in a few minutes. But it's a very
831
00:51:28.079 --> 00:51:33.360
big long track. And so there's been some skipping and
832
00:51:33.400 --> 00:51:36.400
stuff in the MP three that I have here. It's
833
00:51:36.480 --> 00:51:39.639
because of the player I'm using. It's having trouble with it.
834
00:51:40.239 --> 00:51:42.000
But like I said, I have a more cleaned up,
835
00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:45.840
modernized MP three version of this somewhere in my archive,
836
00:51:46.960 --> 00:51:50.280
but this is the original and it was a very
837
00:51:50.400 --> 00:51:57.559
lightweight MP three and all that. And man, I'm talking
838
00:51:57.639 --> 00:51:59.960
too much, but I'm trying to direct the interview because
839
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:02.639
i want to hit certain points. And even though I've
840
00:52:02.679 --> 00:52:05.599
got two hours with Joan, I'll tell you now that
841
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:09.079
I can have conversations with her off air that were
842
00:52:09.159 --> 00:52:15.079
longer than two hours. Okay, So anyway, there's still a
843
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:19.039
lot of time left on this interview, and I'm going
844
00:52:19.079 --> 00:52:21.039
to take a little break here on the show right now,
845
00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:23.119
in twenty twenty five, and we'll get back to Joan
846
00:52:23.199 --> 00:52:25.880
Mellen in twenty fifteen after this.
847
00:52:26.719 --> 00:52:29.239
So it might have had dinner here and there, but
848
00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:30.880
nobody was ever paid.
849
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.840
So do you like history, real history that you were
850
00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:38.639
never taught in schools? Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs
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00:52:38.719 --> 00:52:41.360
in Nation Building in Southeast Asia.
852
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:45.760
By author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never seen before
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that'll open your eyes to events that led up to this.
854
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Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building in
855
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Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one. Get
856
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your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam
857
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War by author Mike Swants.
858
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Revelation through conversation.
859
00:53:25.519 --> 00:53:30.760
Under rule of brass, Ralph Bulls beast smash fire flew
860
00:53:30.880 --> 00:53:31.679
through every.
861
00:53:31.559 --> 00:53:37.360
Faith in the truth about the JAFA assassination.
862
00:53:37.639 --> 00:53:39.199
Right, well, what do you want to know Judy.
863
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:41.719
Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends you knew?
864
00:53:41.800 --> 00:53:44.800
Ruby and Barry answer weapons? Really, I imagine I could
865
00:53:44.840 --> 00:53:47.119
claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.
866
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.079
But okay, Oswald was on the building and trying to
867
00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:51.519
prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
868
00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:53.840
Come on now, has a real effort on the Dafay
869
00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:55.519
assassination into claim.
870
00:53:55.719 --> 00:53:59.719
Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her
871
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.599
own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy
872
00:54:02.719 --> 00:54:06.079
of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words
873
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:09.039
and the known evidence in the case to get at
874
00:54:09.199 --> 00:54:12.679
well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith
875
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:15.960
Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself,
876
00:54:16.159 --> 00:54:19.199
signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at
877
00:54:19.280 --> 00:54:24.000
kias jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book
878
00:54:24.039 --> 00:54:28.719
and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims Judith
879
00:54:28.840 --> 00:54:33.119
Vary Baker in her own words. Thank you Information Shelley
880
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dot com radio network.
881
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The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
882
00:54:38.840 --> 00:54:41.840
transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
883
00:54:41.920 --> 00:54:45.320
the context of the times and reveals never before published
884
00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:48.960
information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
885
00:54:49.079 --> 00:54:51.679
have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
886
00:54:51.760 --> 00:54:55.119
years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
887
00:54:55.159 --> 00:54:58.119
the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.
888
00:54:58.239 --> 00:55:01.719
Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.
889
00:55:02.119 --> 00:55:05.159
In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower.
890
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.840
Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba,
891
00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:11.280
but knew that there were short range missiles on the
892
00:55:11.360 --> 00:55:14.480
island aren't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy
893
00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:17.440
because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have
894
00:55:17.519 --> 00:55:20.480
led to a Third World War, and they wanted to
895
00:55:20.559 --> 00:55:23.840
go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson
896
00:55:24.119 --> 00:55:26.880
reveals why, and we'll show you what President Kennedy was
897
00:55:26.960 --> 00:55:30.360
up against. For more information, the War State dot com.
898
00:55:30.800 --> 00:55:31.119
Oh Yo.
899
00:55:31.239 --> 00:55:34.360
This Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast presented
900
00:55:34.400 --> 00:55:37.320
by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to the
901
00:55:37.400 --> 00:55:42.000
o'chile effect revelation through conversation, the.
902
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:44.239
Use expressed like Coller storms, there anyone else who happens
903
00:55:44.239 --> 00:55:45.480
to get on the air of Jelly dot com do
904
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:48.599
not necessarily reflect heews little Jelly dot com or Jeff o'chilli,
905
00:55:48.719 --> 00:55:51.280
and we are not responsible for getting stupidity which might ensued.
906
00:55:51.400 --> 00:55:53.079
Thank you, Chili dot Com.
907
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In Denial Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks by
908
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Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert
909
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operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In
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Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files.
911
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It exposes things about the Bay and Pigs that no
912
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one has ever written about before. It shows why it
913
00:56:43.360 --> 00:56:46.239
really failed and why the United States did not learn
914
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:49.239
from it. It also shows why other countries today are
915
00:56:49.360 --> 00:56:52.960
doing secret operations with more success. This is the book
916
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that puts what some want to deny into the light.
917
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In Denial, Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks Larry Hancock.
918
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For more information, go to Larry hyphen Hancock dot com.
919
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Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot
920
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com in digital or physical dot.
921
00:57:13.199 --> 00:57:16.559
Com Radio Network revel.
922
00:57:16.519 --> 00:57:22.280
Leg through Colm Sage.
923
00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:41.599
Here, Yeah, revel.
924
00:57:45.199 --> 00:57:49.119
Through car.
925
00:57:57.480 --> 00:57:59.079
So Chili dot com.
926
00:58:12.360 --> 00:58:14.840
So after that short break, we will return you to
927
00:58:14.960 --> 00:58:18.800
because today, as I speak, it is the you know,
928
00:58:18.920 --> 00:58:23.880
tenth day of July twenty twenty five, but this is
929
00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:30.480
from February fifteen of twenty fourteen, and Joan Mellon is
930
00:58:30.519 --> 00:58:34.079
talking to me about Jim Garrison. I interrupted, but anyway,
931
00:58:34.199 --> 00:58:37.800
I'll try and interrupt less as we go. And I'm
932
00:58:37.840 --> 00:58:39.760
going to break this into a second part. So if
933
00:58:39.800 --> 00:58:42.039
you're hearing the podcast later, which most of you will
934
00:58:43.480 --> 00:58:45.360
guess what, there is a part two to the Joan
935
00:58:45.679 --> 00:58:50.079
Mellon tribute on the o'celli effect, and there you go.
936
00:58:51.119 --> 00:58:54.599
Oh and of course Tour has never talked to anyone,
937
00:58:54.679 --> 00:58:57.119
and when he talked to by the way, he did
938
00:58:57.199 --> 00:59:01.159
talk to the House Select Committee on Assassination and the
939
00:59:01.239 --> 00:59:05.639
most marvelous commentary came from the chief investigator out of
940
00:59:05.719 --> 00:59:09.719
Miami for the House Select Committee, Gayton Phonsie. And I
941
00:59:09.840 --> 00:59:12.800
love Phonzie's remark because he was sitting in and the
942
00:59:12.920 --> 00:59:19.119
background for Detrres's testimony before the HSCA was that the
943
00:59:19.320 --> 00:59:23.079
FBI came in in the morning and mentioned certain dates
944
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:25.239
about which they were not to talk to They were
945
00:59:25.280 --> 00:59:28.239
not to ask him questions, and then the CIA came
946
00:59:28.280 --> 00:59:31.280
in and gave their dates for one period of time
947
00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:34.000
when the lawyers of the House Select Committee were not
948
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:38.480
to ask Bernardo Datoris any questions. And so Gayton Phonsie
949
00:59:38.599 --> 00:59:42.559
listening to all this, what Bernardo Detoris finally said, to
950
00:59:42.719 --> 00:59:44.800
listen to him, you would never think that of all
951
00:59:44.920 --> 00:59:48.480
one hundred thousand ors whatever Cubans that were in Miami,
952
00:59:48.559 --> 00:59:52.119
why they should pick this guy to question. And I
953
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:57.039
thought that was really so succinct and so marvelous, and
954
00:59:57.280 --> 00:59:59.800
I recommend, By the way, there's a new reissue of
955
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:03.760
Who Finds This book The Last Investigations, And I just
956
01:00:03.880 --> 01:00:06.840
wanted to call that to people's attention. I believe it
957
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:11.760
was published by the Mary Ferrell Foundation under the auspices
958
01:00:12.039 --> 01:00:17.480
of the marvelous leader of that group, Rex Bradford, Right.
959
01:00:18.440 --> 01:00:21.119
And I've read the original version of the book myself.
960
01:00:21.159 --> 01:00:23.920
I haven't read the updated version, but I've got to
961
01:00:23.960 --> 01:00:25.719
tell you that a couple of points I want to
962
01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:28.400
make to my listeners here. First of all, listen to
963
01:00:28.920 --> 01:00:32.559
what Jonah is saying about doing the independent research. She's
964
01:00:32.639 --> 01:00:35.719
not trusting mere hearsay. She went out and spoke to
965
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:39.239
people directly. When you want to know someone's perspective, you
966
01:00:39.360 --> 01:00:42.480
have to go to them find out from them directly.
967
01:00:42.559 --> 01:00:47.039
You can't simply accept hearsay evidence. And also, even though
968
01:00:47.159 --> 01:00:49.559
she was speaking to someone, she didn't absolutely take their
969
01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:52.880
word for it. She found other corroboration for these things.
970
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.280
And I think that this is something to be taken
971
01:00:55.360 --> 01:00:59.440
note of by many many people who don't follow this
972
01:00:59.599 --> 01:01:02.599
type of ethical sort of pattern when it comes to
973
01:01:02.679 --> 01:01:04.920
their own writings and things, and they allow a lot
974
01:01:04.960 --> 01:01:08.320
of speculation to interfere with the very good facts that
975
01:01:08.400 --> 01:01:09.199
they could uncover.
976
01:01:09.719 --> 01:01:13.280
That's one I make if I might mention, underlining your point,
977
01:01:13.760 --> 01:01:17.920
I might mention a recent book about the Kennedy assassination
978
01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:21.280
by Roger Stone. And this is one of the chain
979
01:01:21.360 --> 01:01:23.639
of books. Is there been book, a book after book,
980
01:01:23.679 --> 01:01:26.920
year after year saying that Lyndon Johnson was really the
981
01:01:27.119 --> 01:01:31.599
organizer and plotter of the Kennedy assassination with his lawyer
982
01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:34.960
or his factotum on the Groundcliffe, Carter, and so forth.
983
01:01:35.039 --> 01:01:37.079
And if you look at that book, you will not
984
01:01:37.199 --> 01:01:40.000
find a shred of evidence for any of its assertions.
985
01:01:40.280 --> 01:01:42.320
And I'm so glad that you're mentioning that, because I
986
01:01:42.440 --> 01:01:44.760
was going to bring it up with you and ask
987
01:01:44.920 --> 01:01:49.880
you to just expound upon this entire, you know, genre
988
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:53.679
of LBJ did it stuff that I started to see
989
01:01:54.639 --> 01:01:59.039
come to fruition really with the first airing of a
990
01:01:59.639 --> 01:02:03.639
very poorly done The Men Who Killed Kennedy episode which
991
01:02:03.719 --> 01:02:08.440
featured bar McClellan, and that's where that stuff really started
992
01:02:08.480 --> 01:02:12.039
to blossom. There had always been the idea floating around
993
01:02:12.119 --> 01:02:15.199
that Lyndon Johnson had something to do with the assassination,
994
01:02:15.920 --> 01:02:18.400
and the idea that he might have been informed of
995
01:02:18.480 --> 01:02:21.480
ahead of time is very possible. But there are books
996
01:02:21.519 --> 01:02:24.599
out there that literally describe him as a mastermind behind it.
997
01:02:25.360 --> 01:02:28.400
And these books are in some cases getting a lot
998
01:02:28.440 --> 01:02:31.800
of airplay in the alternative media and elsewhere, and they
999
01:02:31.880 --> 01:02:35.559
don't deserve it, because once you pull a few assertions
1000
01:02:35.639 --> 01:02:39.639
out of them, the entire house of cards collapses. They're
1001
01:02:39.800 --> 01:02:43.440
no better than the official lies that are out there
1002
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:45.320
and the househouse.
1003
01:02:45.920 --> 01:02:48.440
Now there is proof right there, by the way, I'm interrupting.
1004
01:02:48.440 --> 01:02:51.559
In twenty twenty five, again, there's proof right there. Because
1005
01:02:51.559 --> 01:02:53.599
some people said, oh, you just listen to what Joe
1006
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:57.440
Millen said about you know LBJ doing it, and you
1007
01:02:57.519 --> 01:03:02.679
don't understand. You know what, I already had information that
1008
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:05.840
pulled apart most of the LBJ stuff. I just didn't
1009
01:03:05.920 --> 01:03:10.719
have the fingerprint beat. All I knew is that the
1010
01:03:10.840 --> 01:03:15.039
examination that was done, which Walt Brown paid for. By
1011
01:03:15.079 --> 01:03:17.920
the way, Walt Brown is the guy wrote the check
1012
01:03:18.079 --> 01:03:20.880
to the guy that you see out there, you're oh no.
1013
01:03:21.079 --> 01:03:23.679
And I've done this for many years, and I know
1014
01:03:23.840 --> 01:03:26.039
how I was right. He wasn't even certified at the time.
1015
01:03:27.519 --> 01:03:29.280
That was the only thing that wasn't beat. But I
1016
01:03:29.360 --> 01:03:35.360
knew that evidence was not solid. And guess what. Unofficially
1017
01:03:35.920 --> 01:03:38.519
people had examined it and said, this is insane that
1018
01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:43.960
Darby thinks that this is mac Wallace's fingerprint. So what
1019
01:03:44.119 --> 01:03:47.320
I was going on was unofficial off the book stuff
1020
01:03:47.400 --> 01:03:50.800
and my own study pulling apart the LBJ did it thing.
1021
01:03:51.920 --> 01:03:55.320
Madeline Brown was full of crap, except she did mother
1022
01:03:55.400 --> 01:03:57.519
or child of his. But she was not the mistress.
1023
01:03:58.360 --> 01:04:01.000
She was one of many chicks he man whenever he traveled,
1024
01:04:02.480 --> 01:04:04.480
and she happened to get knocked up. And I do
1025
01:04:04.639 --> 01:04:07.079
believe she had a son, but that never got proved
1026
01:04:07.119 --> 01:04:10.519
in court either. Here's the deal, though she made up
1027
01:04:10.559 --> 01:04:13.639
a bunch of crap. And I know that because of
1028
01:04:13.760 --> 01:04:16.280
interviews conducted by friends of mine. I didn't even need
1029
01:04:16.440 --> 01:04:18.639
to chase down Madeline Brown, who wanted to get paid
1030
01:04:18.679 --> 01:04:20.519
and was also you know, writing bad checks towards the
1031
01:04:20.599 --> 01:04:22.960
end of her life and all that. Didn't need that.
1032
01:04:23.960 --> 01:04:27.039
Most of the LBJ stuff fell apart when you checked timelines,
1033
01:04:27.079 --> 01:04:30.360
when you checked solid information, when you checked all kinds
1034
01:04:30.400 --> 01:04:32.400
of things. This guy is not the mastermind or the
1035
01:04:32.519 --> 01:04:34.679
leader of the pack. When it came to the assassination
1036
01:04:34.760 --> 01:04:38.960
of John F. Kennedy, did he and was he directly
1037
01:04:39.039 --> 01:04:40.800
involved in other murders?
1038
01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:41.800
Yep?
1039
01:04:43.760 --> 01:04:49.480
Was he also a slimy and completely corrupt politician? Yep?
1040
01:04:50.480 --> 01:04:52.679
Was he getting bags of cash sent to him all
1041
01:04:52.719 --> 01:04:59.239
the time? Yep? Did he cheat on elections? Yep? Welcome
1042
01:04:59.320 --> 01:05:04.960
to Texas. Anyway, back to Joan, I just wanted to
1043
01:05:05.000 --> 01:05:06.840
point out that for people who have said over the years,
1044
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:08.960
are you just de showed that when Joe Noon wrote
1045
01:05:08.960 --> 01:05:11.920
a book and you just know she right there, Joan
1046
01:05:12.000 --> 01:05:15.440
had not written Faustian Bargain yet, had not dug into
1047
01:05:15.480 --> 01:05:19.760
mac Wallace. She was doing some of it. Some of
1048
01:05:19.800 --> 01:05:22.679
the work was done already obviously, because she takes years
1049
01:05:22.719 --> 01:05:24.440
to write these things. So I talked to her during
1050
01:05:24.519 --> 01:05:26.519
part of it, and yeah, part of that stuff that
1051
01:05:26.599 --> 01:05:29.760
I knew from her, the fingerprint she held on to
1052
01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:31.840
for a while. I knew about it before the book
1053
01:05:31.920 --> 01:05:35.079
was published. And in fact, she was sitting there saying,
1054
01:05:35.079 --> 01:05:36.599
I don't know what to do because I know I'm
1055
01:05:36.599 --> 01:05:38.159
going to get attacked, and I know people are going
1056
01:05:38.199 --> 01:05:39.599
to come after me, and I know they're going to
1057
01:05:39.639 --> 01:05:41.920
say I'm wrong, and Roger Stone hates me already, and
1058
01:05:44.599 --> 01:05:49.920
and I said, well, Joan, can you publish it in
1059
01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:54.400
an appendix? Yes, I can, and that's what I'm thinking
1060
01:05:54.480 --> 01:05:58.840
of doing. I said, great, I will love cone that book.
1061
01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:03.239
The next thing I knew is Vastian Bargin came out
1062
01:06:03.280 --> 01:06:07.559
with the appendix that shows you the fingerprint evidence. But hey,
1063
01:06:08.239 --> 01:06:10.119
you know, keep doing the LBJ thing.
1064
01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:11.719
Right.
1065
01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:12.639
Rogers Stan.
1066
01:06:14.400 --> 01:06:16.360
Committee, by the way, in case people don't know, that
1067
01:06:17.119 --> 01:06:19.920
was the congressional body that was put together in the
1068
01:06:19.960 --> 01:06:25.280
mid nineteen seventies and did investigate the Kennedy assassination and
1069
01:06:25.480 --> 01:06:29.639
in addition to the Martin Luther King Junior assassination, and
1070
01:06:30.079 --> 01:06:33.519
both of them found at the end regardless of the
1071
01:06:33.679 --> 01:06:37.000
controversy and the troubles with their investigations. Both of them
1072
01:06:37.039 --> 01:06:40.159
actually found that there was a likely conspiracy in both
1073
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:43.440
of these cases. So understand that when they point to
1074
01:06:43.480 --> 01:06:46.840
the Warrant Commission, by the way, and they say to you, look,
1075
01:06:46.880 --> 01:06:49.000
it's just the loan nut, it's just the Loane nut.
1076
01:06:49.440 --> 01:06:52.840
Even the HSTA, which there are many problems with, including
1077
01:06:52.920 --> 01:06:57.119
the fact that they claim that Oswald was certainly an
1078
01:06:57.159 --> 01:07:02.280
assassin that day, they also do reflect the idea that
1079
01:07:02.400 --> 01:07:06.400
there was a conspiracy. Now, I want to go further
1080
01:07:06.480 --> 01:07:08.920
on this Lyndon Johnson thing, and I'm again so glad
1081
01:07:08.960 --> 01:07:11.119
you brought it up. But there was one other thought,
1082
01:07:11.119 --> 01:07:13.519
and I didn't want to lose it on Garrison, that
1083
01:07:14.119 --> 01:07:18.199
even outside of the Kennedy assassination, he had won a
1084
01:07:19.440 --> 01:07:23.719
decision in the United States Supreme Court where he had
1085
01:07:23.840 --> 01:07:27.760
been given he had actually had to take this before
1086
01:07:27.800 --> 01:07:32.519
many judges, before many bodies when he was criticizing public officials,
1087
01:07:33.440 --> 01:07:38.119
and they tried to pillary him for this in the
1088
01:07:38.199 --> 01:07:41.440
media and in the court system, and he won that
1089
01:07:41.679 --> 01:07:43.320
case in the US Supreme Court.
1090
01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:46.000
Well, to give some background about that, let me give
1091
01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:48.840
a little background to that. It wasn't. What happened was
1092
01:07:48.960 --> 01:07:53.320
that the judges of the criminal Court in Orleans Parish
1093
01:07:53.440 --> 01:07:57.280
were very annoyed with Garrison because he was using money
1094
01:07:57.519 --> 01:08:01.719
from the fees that were people defaulting on bail and
1095
01:08:01.840 --> 01:08:03.960
so forth, and he was using that money to fix
1096
01:08:04.039 --> 01:08:08.440
up his office and so forth. And so Garrison was furious,
1097
01:08:08.519 --> 01:08:11.039
and he went and said that the judges on the
1098
01:08:11.119 --> 01:08:15.719
criminal court were like the sacred cows of India, and
1099
01:08:15.920 --> 01:08:19.079
that they were never at work. They celebrated all kinds
1100
01:08:19.079 --> 01:08:21.479
of holidays, including he made up a few like Huey
1101
01:08:21.560 --> 01:08:24.760
Long's birthday, in Saint winter Bottom's Day and so forth.
1102
01:08:25.239 --> 01:08:27.680
And he also said that they were mafia connected. So
1103
01:08:27.800 --> 01:08:30.359
for all those people that are still saying, like Peter
1104
01:08:30.520 --> 01:08:33.760
Dale Scott that Garrison it was fronting for the mafia,
1105
01:08:34.199 --> 01:08:37.960
here's Garrison in court saying, well, not yet in court,
1106
01:08:38.039 --> 01:08:41.279
but in public, saying that the judges and they were,
1107
01:08:41.520 --> 01:08:43.760
and he could prove it. Frank Costello was involved in
1108
01:08:43.800 --> 01:08:47.159
one of them connected to the mafia. So the judges
1109
01:08:47.199 --> 01:08:49.960
got very angry at this, and they met on bank
1110
01:08:50.079 --> 01:08:53.479
that means all of them together, and they sued Garrison
1111
01:08:53.800 --> 01:08:58.359
in court for criminal libel, and Garrison had to defend himself.
1112
01:08:58.439 --> 01:09:01.359
He got a wonderful lawyer named dot organ And who
1113
01:09:01.399 --> 01:09:05.560
didn't charge a cent. And Garrison lost. The judges won,
1114
01:09:05.960 --> 01:09:08.760
and then he went on appeal and he lost again,
1115
01:09:09.399 --> 01:09:12.399
and then his lawyer took him. They went to the
1116
01:09:12.520 --> 01:09:15.680
United States Supreme Court, and they were very fortunate because
1117
01:09:15.760 --> 01:09:19.079
New York Times versus Sullivan had already been passed and
1118
01:09:19.239 --> 01:09:25.640
that gave newspapers the right to criticize unless you could
1119
01:09:25.680 --> 01:09:30.760
show malice. And the Garrison case, which was Garrison versus Louisiana,
1120
01:09:31.600 --> 01:09:34.159
was addendum to that and said that you have the
1121
01:09:34.239 --> 01:09:37.960
freedom and underlined the freedom to criticize public officials. The
1122
01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:41.399
opinion was written by William Brennan, Justice Brennan, who was,
1123
01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:43.560
of course we know, the most liberal member of the
1124
01:09:43.600 --> 01:09:46.800
Supreme Court, and there are no William Brennan's today, not
1125
01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:48.279
even a shadow of the word.
1126
01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:50.159
Yeah.
1127
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:54.159
And so Garrison won that case. It was a great
1128
01:09:54.520 --> 01:09:57.680
victory for him. And this is all before anything about
1129
01:09:57.760 --> 01:10:00.880
Kennedy assassination. It hadn't there was I think that, uh,
1130
01:10:01.560 --> 01:10:05.159
I think it was the earlier so uh. The other
1131
01:10:05.279 --> 01:10:08.520
thing is that Garrison was very concerned about civil liberties
1132
01:10:08.840 --> 01:10:13.000
throughout his years as District Attorney of Orleans Parish, and
1133
01:10:13.119 --> 01:10:15.880
he often said the freedom of speech needs to be
1134
01:10:16.000 --> 01:10:18.960
in an oxygen tent, that it always needs to be
1135
01:10:19.439 --> 01:10:22.840
fortified because you can always lose it. And he fought
1136
01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:27.840
against the police in in uh, New Orleans censored a
1137
01:10:27.920 --> 01:10:37.960
book by which name was it another country? Now I
1138
01:10:38.000 --> 01:10:43.640
can't remember, that was confiscated from the double bookstore. And
1139
01:10:43.920 --> 01:10:47.640
now you'll and uh and uh he scares and opposed that.
1140
01:10:47.800 --> 01:10:51.359
He and also he fought against the prevalent racism, and
1141
01:10:51.800 --> 01:10:56.600
there were clanned bombings throughout New Orleans of his uh
1142
01:10:56.920 --> 01:11:00.479
in the early years that he was uh just a attorney,
1143
01:11:00.720 --> 01:11:05.920
and he pursued them most of He also refused to
1144
01:11:06.399 --> 01:11:12.920
prosecute homosexuals who were regularly arrested and on what they
1145
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:18.119
called crimes against nature, and Garrison said, the only crimes
1146
01:11:18.119 --> 01:11:22.840
against nature are hurricanes, cyclones and all this and made
1147
01:11:22.880 --> 01:11:25.199
a joke of it, and nobody was allowed to prosecute.
1148
01:11:25.319 --> 01:11:28.680
But none of his assistants were allowed to prosecute people
1149
01:11:28.760 --> 01:11:31.840
on so called crimes against nature. And in fact, when
1150
01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:35.920
Garrison put Clay Shaw on trial for participation in the
1151
01:11:36.039 --> 01:11:39.680
conspiracy to murder President Kennedy, and that doesn't mean that
1152
01:11:39.800 --> 01:11:43.199
that was the conspiracy that ultimately resulted in the assassination,
1153
01:11:43.800 --> 01:11:47.880
but that Shaw was part of a conspiracy to murder
1154
01:11:47.920 --> 01:11:50.920
President Kennedy and one that involved Oswald, the person who
1155
01:11:51.399 --> 01:11:58.199
was allegedly the killer. Garrison was made sure that Shaw's
1156
01:11:58.239 --> 01:12:02.560
homosexuality was never mentioned in court during the trial or
1157
01:12:02.600 --> 01:12:05.079
any of the pre trial hearings. And not only that,
1158
01:12:05.199 --> 01:12:08.960
he didn't call to testify any of the homosexual friends
1159
01:12:09.159 --> 01:12:12.600
of Shaw. People, Well, why not, Raymond Brocheers, and why
1160
01:12:12.720 --> 01:12:15.800
not and so on, and Garrison just just would would
1161
01:12:15.840 --> 01:12:18.880
not do that. I thought he took a principal stand. Also,
1162
01:12:19.000 --> 01:12:21.560
by the way, as a side note, at this trial
1163
01:12:21.600 --> 01:12:24.720
of Clay Shaw, he also refused to call anyone with
1164
01:12:24.800 --> 01:12:29.239
a criminal record, and that was a problem for like
1165
01:12:29.319 --> 01:12:31.800
take Daego Garner and others who knew a lot about
1166
01:12:31.880 --> 01:12:35.039
Certainly the relationship between Lee, Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby
1167
01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:38.000
would have been good witnesses, but he was determined that
1168
01:12:40.199 --> 01:12:44.840
that the that the witnesses not the have the undermined
1169
01:12:45.039 --> 01:12:49.319
or by Shaw's defense on the ground that they had
1170
01:12:49.760 --> 01:12:50.720
committed felonies.
1171
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:53.279
Right, He didn't want the character of the witnesses to
1172
01:12:53.880 --> 01:12:57.760
to be brought to issue in the courtroom, uh, you know,
1173
01:12:58.000 --> 01:13:00.279
during a time when the content of what they had
1174
01:13:00.319 --> 01:13:02.560
to say was the most important thing. He didn't want
1175
01:13:02.960 --> 01:13:05.560
the jury, the public, or even the record to be
1176
01:13:06.640 --> 01:13:11.520
sort of distracted from the real issues and the idea here.
1177
01:13:11.600 --> 01:13:13.239
The reason why I brought it up is because I
1178
01:13:13.319 --> 01:13:15.680
wanted to add a little bit more texture to the
1179
01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:18.560
idea of who this guy is, because so often you
1180
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:22.000
see authors all the way from then, which was in
1181
01:13:22.079 --> 01:13:24.880
the late sixties, when when the Shaw trial ended in
1182
01:13:25.239 --> 01:13:29.159
nineteen sixty nine, all the way from then till now,
1183
01:13:29.560 --> 01:13:32.600
people have discussed how the guy was compromised, and he
1184
01:13:32.840 --> 01:13:36.439
was crazy, and he had no principles, and he was
1185
01:13:36.640 --> 01:13:40.640
just a publicity hound that really didn't have and all
1186
01:13:40.680 --> 01:13:45.239
these terrible, nasty criticisms of the guy who was a
1187
01:13:45.359 --> 01:13:49.760
completely legitimate stand up person, who was by no means
1188
01:13:49.840 --> 01:13:52.960
a screaming radical of any kind. He was just a
1189
01:13:53.159 --> 01:13:56.159
fair minded person who was in search of the truth
1190
01:13:56.239 --> 01:13:59.520
and in search of justice. And I think that these
1191
01:13:59.600 --> 01:14:01.960
types of things that we're talking about here are worth
1192
01:14:02.039 --> 01:14:06.039
mentioning for that reason. You know, I don't know what
1193
01:14:06.159 --> 01:14:08.800
you think about that, but I'm pretty sure you agree
1194
01:14:08.840 --> 01:14:09.039
with me.
1195
01:14:09.159 --> 01:14:12.319
Here. Well, yeah, of course I think that Garrison is
1196
01:14:12.399 --> 01:14:18.680
an impeccable record on civil liberties, on racism, he often said.
1197
01:14:20.640 --> 01:14:23.600
Somebody asked him, I think Richard Billings was from Life Magazine,
1198
01:14:23.680 --> 01:14:26.760
came down to the office and Billings asked Garrison, this
1199
01:14:26.880 --> 01:14:30.439
is something for Northerners and us in the East hard
1200
01:14:30.479 --> 01:14:34.319
to understand. What is the Sovereignty Commission. The Sovereignty Commission
1201
01:14:34.800 --> 01:14:38.119
was a state organization set up by this state, Louisiana
1202
01:14:38.159 --> 01:14:43.560
and Mississippi to prevent integration. And so Garrison would joke
1203
01:14:43.640 --> 01:14:46.439
and he said, well, what the Sovereignty Commission means? They
1204
01:14:46.479 --> 01:14:49.920
don't want black people to walk on Royal Street, which
1205
01:14:50.399 --> 01:14:55.279
he was joking. But there's a marvelous documentary, by the way,
1206
01:14:55.359 --> 01:14:58.560
about the Sovereignty Commission that PBS put out this year,
1207
01:14:58.920 --> 01:15:02.800
and you can really see how they were infilt, how
1208
01:15:02.880 --> 01:15:06.880
they infiltrated the civil rights movement, and especially how the
1209
01:15:07.239 --> 01:15:11.199
people who were Schwerner, Goodman and Cheney who were murdered
1210
01:15:11.239 --> 01:15:15.439
in during Mississippi summer in nineteen sixty four, how their
1211
01:15:15.720 --> 01:15:20.479
movements were charted by spies from the Sovereignty Commission that
1212
01:15:20.640 --> 01:15:23.600
infiltrated the movement. There were also spies from the NAACP.
1213
01:15:24.319 --> 01:15:26.560
That was the story that was dramatized in the movie
1214
01:15:26.600 --> 01:15:30.760
Mississippi Burning. That was that's where a lot of people
1215
01:15:30.840 --> 01:15:33.720
might might recall those names in case they had not
1216
01:15:33.880 --> 01:15:35.640
studied the struggle of Dove.
1217
01:15:35.720 --> 01:15:35.840
Though.
1218
01:15:36.000 --> 01:15:38.720
I agree that people you should look and see the
1219
01:15:38.800 --> 01:15:41.399
people who are involved in these cases and in all
1220
01:15:41.479 --> 01:15:45.000
this history. You want to see if they look for notoriety,
1221
01:15:45.560 --> 01:15:47.960
and if they do look for notoriety, you tend to
1222
01:15:48.039 --> 01:15:52.880
look at their testimony and perhaps hesitate before accepting it.
1223
01:15:52.960 --> 01:15:55.640
And one of the people about in a Farewell to
1224
01:15:55.920 --> 01:16:01.720
Justice who was a ciass that was involved here as
1225
01:16:01.760 --> 01:16:07.000
a possible patsy Thomas Edward Beckham and oh boy, and
1226
01:16:07.119 --> 01:16:09.399
also of course his handler, Jack Martin, he was He's
1227
01:16:09.399 --> 01:16:11.359
c I A. I think I proved in the update,
1228
01:16:11.520 --> 01:16:14.239
the new update to my book that Jack Martin was
1229
01:16:14.319 --> 01:16:20.039
certainly was certainly connected to CIA. But Thomas Edward Beckham,
1230
01:16:20.119 --> 01:16:23.720
oh boy, because he gave such frank testimony to me
1231
01:16:23.840 --> 01:16:28.319
when I interviewed him in Louisville. And Thomas Edward Beckham
1232
01:16:28.399 --> 01:16:31.439
had been years a few years earlier represented when he
1233
01:16:31.560 --> 01:16:34.560
was a lawyer by a judge in Alabama called Charles McKnight,
1234
01:16:34.920 --> 01:16:38.279
who befriended Beckham, and when he read my book, he
1235
01:16:38.880 --> 01:16:40.760
was very interested because he said to me, you know,
1236
01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:45.079
the guy was so intelligent without an education, was no education,
1237
01:16:45.560 --> 01:16:48.239
I mean, not even in elementary school, and so smart.
1238
01:16:48.760 --> 01:16:51.800
And he liked him so much and he wanted to
1239
01:16:53.079 --> 01:16:57.239
And then when he represented him, suddenly his office was
1240
01:16:57.359 --> 01:17:00.239
robbed and all the files were taken and he the
1241
01:17:00.399 --> 01:17:03.239
FBI said would you find this guy for me? Because
1242
01:17:03.279 --> 01:17:06.840
Beckham had disappeared into the hinterland, and the FBI agent
1243
01:17:06.960 --> 01:17:10.000
came back and said, he doesn't exist. I can't find
1244
01:17:10.039 --> 01:17:12.720
anything about him. This was already in the nineteen eighties.
1245
01:17:13.439 --> 01:17:17.399
And after my just a year or so ago, Charlie
1246
01:17:17.479 --> 01:17:19.560
McKnight called me and he said, do you have Beckham's
1247
01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:22.840
phone number? Because he's still all these years later. It
1248
01:17:23.000 --> 01:17:25.800
just kind of had an affectionate feeling for Beckham, and
1249
01:17:25.960 --> 01:17:28.479
so I did. I managed to find his phone number miracle,
1250
01:17:28.840 --> 01:17:33.880
and McKnight called him up and Beckham answered and he said,
1251
01:17:34.560 --> 01:17:37.079
you have the wrong number. I don't know anybody by him.
1252
01:17:37.119 --> 01:17:40.159
There's nobody here by that name. So he didn't want
1253
01:17:40.199 --> 01:17:43.960
he doesn't want, he didn't want any attention He was terrified,
1254
01:17:44.039 --> 01:17:48.600
really of being of the consequences of having been so
1255
01:17:48.760 --> 01:17:51.760
close a witness to the Kennedy assassination. And when I
1256
01:17:51.840 --> 01:17:53.960
first called him, the first the question that he asked
1257
01:17:54.000 --> 01:17:57.479
me was is Jack Martin still alive? That fright Jack
1258
01:17:57.560 --> 01:18:00.760
Martin frightened him. So to those who think that Jack
1259
01:18:00.880 --> 01:18:03.279
Martin was just a hope, a drunk who hung around
1260
01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:06.239
Guy Banister's office, we can talk about Guy Banister if
1261
01:18:06.239 --> 01:18:09.880
you like in a minute, and really was a hapless figure.
1262
01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:14.840
It was a religious fanatic belonging to these extraterrestrial churches,
1263
01:18:15.279 --> 01:18:17.600
and not of and of no consequence.
1264
01:18:19.000 --> 01:18:19.279
That was.
1265
01:18:19.359 --> 01:18:22.520
It was very interesting to hear Thomas Edward Beckham saying
1266
01:18:23.079 --> 01:18:27.760
that it weren't fearing even these years later Jack Martin.
1267
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:31.960
Jack Martin was dead, and luckily for me, that allowed
1268
01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:35.279
Beckham really to talk to me, and so I went
1269
01:18:35.319 --> 01:18:38.039
to Louisville and talked to him. There were so many
1270
01:18:38.159 --> 01:18:41.039
and put some update in the update to a Farewell
1271
01:18:41.079 --> 01:18:44.680
to Justice, I put some more information about Beckham and
1272
01:18:44.840 --> 01:18:49.399
also about another of his handlers, whose name was fred
1273
01:18:49.479 --> 01:18:53.640
Lee Chrisman, and who also appeared before the Orleans Parish
1274
01:18:53.720 --> 01:18:57.199
Grand Jury. But by that time Garrison was exhausted, it
1275
01:18:57.319 --> 01:19:01.520
was almost time for the Shaw trial, and and Chrispin
1276
01:19:01.680 --> 01:19:04.239
just talked his way out of it. These are people
1277
01:19:04.319 --> 01:19:08.119
who have no scruples about lying to a grand jury.
1278
01:19:08.359 --> 01:19:10.319
The idea that you don't like to the grand jury
1279
01:19:10.439 --> 01:19:12.800
is some fantasy out of the nineteenth century. I think
1280
01:19:13.279 --> 01:19:16.840
we see also just as a slight digression, because he
1281
01:19:16.920 --> 01:19:19.199
brought it up. And that is in the case with
1282
01:19:19.279 --> 01:19:23.239
the Lyndon Johnson story of Billy Solestes, who is the
1283
01:19:23.319 --> 01:19:29.199
only witness who says anything about Lyndon Johnson and a
1284
01:19:29.279 --> 01:19:33.439
young man named mac Wallace being involved in murders and
1285
01:19:34.560 --> 01:19:36.920
Billy clesties. When he got out of prison, a second
1286
01:19:37.079 --> 01:19:40.319
stretch of in prison went before the grand jury in
1287
01:19:40.439 --> 01:19:44.439
Robertson County and started accusing Johnson and mac Wallace and
1288
01:19:44.520 --> 01:19:48.680
so forth about planning murders and whatnot. And the idea
1289
01:19:49.199 --> 01:19:51.880
and that you mentioned that episode of the Men Who
1290
01:19:52.000 --> 01:19:55.199
Killed Kennedy which had to do with the Lyndon Johnson story.
1291
01:19:55.800 --> 01:20:00.439
Fatuous comment by one of the so called researchers whose said, well,
1292
01:20:00.680 --> 01:20:03.840
there's no reason why a Billity Celestes would line except
1293
01:20:03.880 --> 01:20:04.039
for the.
1294
01:20:04.079 --> 01:20:07.039
Fact that he was an admitted con man, and he
1295
01:20:07.079 --> 01:20:08.039
admitted he was a liar.
1296
01:20:08.159 --> 01:20:11.159
He went in on the second trial, he stood before
1297
01:20:11.239 --> 01:20:14.359
the jury and he said, I'm a liar, and I
1298
01:20:14.479 --> 01:20:18.199
exaggerate and I brag. Those were the thing. And he admitted,
1299
01:20:18.199 --> 01:20:20.600
you know, as if he were trying to disarm the
1300
01:20:21.520 --> 01:20:24.239
jury with all of that and to use him as
1301
01:20:24.279 --> 01:20:26.800
a witness for anything. I mean, he would not. This
1302
01:20:26.840 --> 01:20:29.000
would not work a hold up in any court of law,
1303
01:20:29.399 --> 01:20:31.600
and it shouldn't hold up in the court of history.
1304
01:20:32.199 --> 01:20:35.960
Now history allows hearsay if you have to have it,
1305
01:20:36.520 --> 01:20:38.960
uh in a way that a court of law doesn't.
1306
01:20:39.520 --> 01:20:39.640
Uh.
1307
01:20:40.479 --> 01:20:42.720
And but but it has to be presented I think
1308
01:20:42.880 --> 01:20:46.039
with a caveat, and the caveat is this is this
1309
01:20:46.199 --> 01:20:48.319
is here say we only such and such witness set
1310
01:20:48.319 --> 01:20:50.840
it so and so claims. But in the case of
1311
01:20:50.920 --> 01:20:53.720
Bility Celestes, I also have come to believe that he
1312
01:20:53.840 --> 01:20:57.359
himself was implicated in one or more of the murders
1313
01:20:57.399 --> 01:20:59.520
that he accuses mac Wallace of having committed.
1314
01:20:59.800 --> 01:20:59.920
Right.
1315
01:21:00.239 --> 01:21:04.000
So it's a mess. And this is the only evidence.
1316
01:21:04.079 --> 01:21:06.319
Getting back to what we were talking about before about
1317
01:21:06.359 --> 01:21:10.239
the Lyndon Johnson did it a story. This is the
1318
01:21:10.319 --> 01:21:12.800
only evidence. And if you quote, and it's not evidence,
1319
01:21:13.680 --> 01:21:15.399
the only thing that they could point to. And I
1320
01:21:15.479 --> 01:21:17.920
want to go back, if I may, to the whole
1321
01:21:18.000 --> 01:21:21.239
issue how this happened this Lyndon Johnson did it book
1322
01:21:21.279 --> 01:21:24.640
after book, year after year, whether it's Bara McClellan, whether
1323
01:21:24.720 --> 01:21:27.840
it's Roger Stone, whether it's The Men on the Sixth Floor,
1324
01:21:28.359 --> 01:21:32.079
whether the whole bunch of those books, and Phil Nelson
1325
01:21:32.199 --> 01:21:33.520
is another one, many of.
1326
01:21:33.520 --> 01:21:36.960
Them, right, And it's a great study and how quite
1327
01:21:37.039 --> 01:21:42.800
often these distractions are sort of propagated by certain individuals
1328
01:21:43.199 --> 01:21:45.680
who really just want to give you something to keep
1329
01:21:45.720 --> 01:21:48.439
you away from the truth. And I think the lynchpin
1330
01:21:48.560 --> 01:21:52.479
and all of those terrible stories that have come out
1331
01:21:52.560 --> 01:21:57.479
that are just absolutely based in nothing, the lynchpin has
1332
01:21:57.600 --> 01:22:02.000
been for these people that well mac Wallace was there
1333
01:22:02.159 --> 01:22:07.560
that day, and the reason is they have this particular
1334
01:22:07.600 --> 01:22:09.720
piece of evidence. And you and I had discussed this
1335
01:22:10.399 --> 01:22:13.119
nowhere on the air anywhere, but I know what it
1336
01:22:13.279 --> 01:22:16.000
is that we're talking about here, and I really would
1337
01:22:16.079 --> 01:22:19.880
love to have you talk about that as well. So please,
1338
01:22:19.960 --> 01:22:22.399
let's let's not forget to mention that one piece of
1339
01:22:22.439 --> 01:22:22.960
evidence and.
1340
01:22:22.960 --> 01:22:25.279
What it is I want to talk about where this
1341
01:22:25.479 --> 01:22:28.800
comes from. In general. That is the historical overview of
1342
01:22:28.880 --> 01:22:31.279
the Lennon Johnson did it, and I think that what
1343
01:22:31.760 --> 01:22:34.199
will you have found? Jim Garrison of course set us
1344
01:22:34.279 --> 01:22:37.840
on the path to looking at CIA in particular, but
1345
01:22:37.960 --> 01:22:43.199
also other intelligence agencies cooperating in plotting the assassination. And Garrison,
1346
01:22:43.239 --> 01:22:45.560
of course this has been said many times by me
1347
01:22:45.680 --> 01:22:48.600
and others, didn't care who the shoots were. What he
1348
01:22:48.720 --> 01:22:51.279
cared about was whose idea this was? Who is the plotter?
1349
01:22:52.760 --> 01:22:57.840
And CIA, as I've said many times, others have seen it,
1350
01:22:58.119 --> 01:23:01.520
put out a document in April nineteen six six which
1351
01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:05.520
was directed to the CIA's media assets directing on how
1352
01:23:05.680 --> 01:23:12.720
to how to counter the criticisms of various critics. Mark
1353
01:23:12.800 --> 01:23:15.640
Lane was one and Jim Garrison, whose name is not
1354
01:23:15.760 --> 01:23:18.279
in the document, was really the main subject because that
1355
01:23:18.520 --> 01:23:22.399
document was issued at the time of the Garrison investigation
1356
01:23:22.600 --> 01:23:29.039
in nineteen sixty seven. And so let me just so,
1357
01:23:29.239 --> 01:23:32.600
what did CIA do in order to instruct its media assets.
1358
01:23:32.760 --> 01:23:35.560
One thing was to accuse Garrison of being the dupe
1359
01:23:35.600 --> 01:23:39.039
of the KGB out of the Moscow and in that
1360
01:23:39.199 --> 01:23:44.760
case they particularly set their media assets onto the Piasa Sarah,
1361
01:23:44.840 --> 01:23:47.279
which is an Italian newspaper that just at the time
1362
01:23:47.359 --> 01:23:51.119
that Clay Show was arrested in March nineteen sixty seven,
1363
01:23:51.319 --> 01:23:54.800
March first, Piaja Sarah put out a series of articles
1364
01:23:54.840 --> 01:23:59.119
about a CIA front organization in Europe called permandex with
1365
01:23:59.319 --> 01:24:06.600
a special sidebar organization in Rome called Centro Commercial on Monday.
1366
01:24:06.680 --> 01:24:10.439
I think I have that right anyway, So Playshaw was
1367
01:24:10.479 --> 01:24:14.279
a director of that organization. So here he is being
1368
01:24:14.319 --> 01:24:19.039
the director of a CIA front organization at the time
1369
01:24:19.199 --> 01:24:22.239
on the board of directors at the time that Garrison
1370
01:24:22.560 --> 01:24:26.840
is looking into exactly what Shaw's CIA connections were. Well,
1371
01:24:26.920 --> 01:24:29.560
what was CIA then going to do and tell its
1372
01:24:29.640 --> 01:24:32.039
media assets? After this little bit of time went by,
1373
01:24:32.560 --> 01:24:35.840
they decided to put forth the view that the mafia
1374
01:24:35.920 --> 01:24:38.960
did it. It was really a mafia a plan and
1375
01:24:39.159 --> 01:24:42.079
not at all CIA. And in that respect, they had
1376
01:24:42.159 --> 01:24:45.239
several writers. One of them was John Davis who published
1377
01:24:45.279 --> 01:24:47.880
a book called Mafia Kingfish. He was a cousin of
1378
01:24:47.960 --> 01:24:51.439
Jacqueline Kennedy. And another book was the book that was
1379
01:24:51.720 --> 01:24:55.560
published by Robert Blakey co authored with Richard Billings.
1380
01:24:55.880 --> 01:24:56.000
Now.
1381
01:24:56.079 --> 01:24:59.000
Blake was the head of the Chief Counsel of the
1382
01:24:59.039 --> 01:25:02.640
House Select Committee on Assassinations and CIA was deeply involved
1383
01:25:02.880 --> 01:25:05.960
in manipulating and controlling the House to Let Committee, and
1384
01:25:06.079 --> 01:25:08.520
I haven't a farewell to justice all a lot of
1385
01:25:08.600 --> 01:25:12.800
the correspondence between Scott Breckinridge of CIA and Blake Ee
1386
01:25:13.199 --> 01:25:15.840
as CIA looked at the questions that were being asked,
1387
01:25:15.880 --> 01:25:20.640
if people edited the report that HHSCA wrote and so forth. Okay,
1388
01:25:20.760 --> 01:25:22.600
So the years went by, and we have another of
1389
01:25:22.640 --> 01:25:26.119
those books called Ultimate Sacrifice, and that book came out
1390
01:25:26.439 --> 01:25:30.000
very coincidentally, exactly at the same moment that my book
1391
01:25:30.079 --> 01:25:31.920
came out. So if I was going to say that
1392
01:25:32.079 --> 01:25:34.920
Garrison was right and the CIA was behind the assassination
1393
01:25:35.079 --> 01:25:38.279
in some way, here's the book by Lamar Waldron and
1394
01:25:39.039 --> 01:25:42.960
a radio personality named Tom Hartman saying, no, No, here's
1395
01:25:43.000 --> 01:25:45.720
the mafia right there. Well, years went by and this
1396
01:25:46.039 --> 01:25:49.119
mafia had done it idea sort of warrants worth sin,
1397
01:25:49.359 --> 01:25:52.039
and people began to ask how could the mafia have
1398
01:25:52.199 --> 01:25:55.279
orchestrated the cover up? They might have been involved. They
1399
01:25:55.319 --> 01:25:58.039
were involved with CIA, my goodness, since nineteen forty six
1400
01:25:58.119 --> 01:26:01.520
and forty seven, when they involved themselves in Operation Gladio
1401
01:26:01.640 --> 01:26:05.079
in Italy, before even the ink was drawn on CI
1402
01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:07.279
a charter we could talk about that, because to know
1403
01:26:08.079 --> 01:26:11.560
history of ci A is essential to understanding these issues.
1404
01:26:12.319 --> 01:26:16.079
So then came the Lyndon Johnson. Well, if it wasn't
1405
01:26:16.119 --> 01:26:19.960
the mafia, we need an alternate sponsor. How about Lyndon Johnson.
1406
01:26:20.479 --> 01:26:23.560
And after all, Quibono, who he profited from the event.
1407
01:26:23.680 --> 01:26:26.199
He was power hungry all his life. He wanted to
1408
01:26:26.279 --> 01:26:29.119
be President of the United States. Wouldn't he be he'd
1409
01:26:29.119 --> 01:26:32.239
be wouldn't he be a great sponsor? And so if
1410
01:26:32.279 --> 01:26:34.319
you look at all these books of which I mentioned
1411
01:26:34.399 --> 01:26:37.560
the Roger Stone, Laura McClelland been on the sixth floor.
1412
01:26:37.720 --> 01:26:39.239
If you look at all these books, one thing that
1413
01:26:39.319 --> 01:26:42.079
they have in common, in addition to blaming Lyndon Johnson,
1414
01:26:42.520 --> 01:26:45.800
is that they never mentioned any involvement for knowledge or
1415
01:26:45.880 --> 01:26:49.640
cover up by ci A. CIA is not mentioned in
1416
01:26:49.760 --> 01:26:52.600
these books. Look at the Roger Stone and so there.
1417
01:26:52.800 --> 01:26:56.000
So it's obvious, isn't it that this is that these
1418
01:26:56.159 --> 01:26:59.039
people must be CIA assets. If they're not, they're they're
1419
01:26:59.199 --> 01:27:04.399
they're saving the CIA money. These communists, they used to say,
1420
01:27:04.439 --> 01:27:06.319
if you're not a member, then they're you know, they're
1421
01:27:06.399 --> 01:27:09.439
deuced cheaters because they might as well be members of
1422
01:27:09.479 --> 01:27:12.039
the Communist Party for what they're saying, and they're not
1423
01:27:12.119 --> 01:27:15.560
paying their dues. So here I think we have every
1424
01:27:15.600 --> 01:27:18.359
one of these books have that in common that it's
1425
01:27:18.840 --> 01:27:20.760
and one of them on one a video by a
1426
01:27:21.039 --> 01:27:26.279
Frenchman named William Ramon. He said it says the assassination
1427
01:27:26.399 --> 01:27:30.079
of President Kennedy was an example of Texas justice and
1428
01:27:30.199 --> 01:27:34.239
nobody at Texas mafia and nobody but Texas Texas and
1429
01:27:34.319 --> 01:27:37.680
Texas was involved in the Kennedy assassination. There's your ultimate
1430
01:27:37.760 --> 01:27:40.600
sponsor and that's the one that we have at this moment.
1431
01:27:40.720 --> 01:27:43.359
So that brings us up today. Now I want to
1432
01:27:43.359 --> 01:27:45.680
add one on a point because my book, I'm writing
1433
01:27:45.720 --> 01:27:49.000
a book about Lyndon Johnson and mac Wallace. Well, who's Macwallace.
1434
01:27:49.479 --> 01:27:52.000
Mac Wallace was a young man who, among other young
1435
01:27:52.079 --> 01:27:56.000
men recruited by Lyndon Johnson, and there were many. One
1436
01:27:56.039 --> 01:27:58.840
of them was that Governor Connolly, another one was called
1437
01:27:58.880 --> 01:28:03.279
Horace Busby and Johnson gathered under usually they were presidents
1438
01:28:03.319 --> 01:28:06.359
of the University of Texas and Macwallas had been a
1439
01:28:06.399 --> 01:28:08.680
student at the University of Texas, was president of the
1440
01:28:08.680 --> 01:28:11.479
student body in nineteen forty four and he was and
1441
01:28:11.680 --> 01:28:15.039
after he fell on hard times. Lyndon Johnson scooped him
1442
01:28:15.079 --> 01:28:17.520
up and took him to Washington, and he became he
1443
01:28:18.119 --> 01:28:23.760
came under the umbrella of Lyndon Johnson. Now mcwallas did
1444
01:28:23.880 --> 01:28:26.399
commit a murder for which he was tried and convicted,
1445
01:28:26.920 --> 01:28:28.840
and that was the murder of somebody that was having
1446
01:28:28.880 --> 01:28:32.840
a love affair with both Mike Wallace's wife and simultaneously
1447
01:28:34.880 --> 01:28:37.840
it was named John Douglas Kinser, and he was having
1448
01:28:37.840 --> 01:28:41.079
an affair not only with macwallas's wife, whose name was Andre,
1449
01:28:41.760 --> 01:28:47.920
but with Johnson's sisters, Josepha, Josepha. So here goes Mack Wallace.
1450
01:28:48.000 --> 01:28:51.520
I think he later himself told people it was a
1451
01:28:51.560 --> 01:28:54.760
crime of passion. He goes in and he shoots John
1452
01:28:54.800 --> 01:28:57.800
Douglas Kinser at his golf course. Kinzer was trying to
1453
01:28:58.199 --> 01:29:01.600
set up a golf course nine holes and shoots him
1454
01:29:01.600 --> 01:29:05.000
in cold blunt right there in broad daylight, with witnesses around.
1455
01:29:05.720 --> 01:29:08.319
And to make a law, I won't go through the
1456
01:29:08.359 --> 01:29:11.119
whole thing, but he was tried and he was convicted
1457
01:29:11.560 --> 01:29:14.680
of murder with malice that when we call first degree murder.
1458
01:29:15.079 --> 01:29:19.399
And then for various mass reasons not necessarily related to
1459
01:29:19.479 --> 01:29:23.720
Lyndon Johnson, I have to say, but jury tampering. He
1460
01:29:23.840 --> 01:29:26.640
was given a suspended sentence and didn't serve a day
1461
01:29:27.079 --> 01:29:31.840
in jail, And so he was a murderer. So wouldn't
1462
01:29:31.880 --> 01:29:34.359
he be just the one to blame for a whole
1463
01:29:34.399 --> 01:29:38.039
bunch of murders connected with Billy Clestes and his crimes
1464
01:29:38.079 --> 01:29:41.920
and felonies and scams and all these murders were blamed
1465
01:29:42.000 --> 01:29:45.399
on mac Wallace only if we have only the word
1466
01:29:45.479 --> 01:29:48.720
for this of Billy Clestes. Now, that may not be
1467
01:29:48.920 --> 01:29:53.960
enough to say that Roy Johnson was the mastermind of
1468
01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.880
the Kennedy assassination. But then we put that we need
1469
01:29:57.319 --> 01:30:00.279
another detail out of this, and that is there was
1470
01:30:00.359 --> 01:30:03.720
a fingerprint, one fingerprint up there on the sixth floor
1471
01:30:03.760 --> 01:30:06.479
of the Texas school Book Depository, from which probably no
1472
01:30:06.600 --> 01:30:09.560
one fired any shots, But there was a fingerprint that
1473
01:30:09.680 --> 01:30:14.640
the Warrant Commission had among its exhibits that was unidentified.
1474
01:30:15.199 --> 01:30:19.560
They identified all the fingerprints up there, including police, but
1475
01:30:19.800 --> 01:30:22.359
one was they could not identify, and it sits, and
1476
01:30:22.520 --> 01:30:27.439
they weren't exhibits, And so various researchers, not necessarily with
1477
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:34.159
bad will, decided tested and so and concluded that this
1478
01:30:34.399 --> 01:30:39.119
was Macwallace's fingerprint. Well, if Macwallace's fingerprint was up there
1479
01:30:39.399 --> 01:30:42.439
and he was associated with Lyndon Johnson, as indeed he was,
1480
01:30:43.479 --> 01:30:49.760
then surely this proves, by this contorted reasoning that Lyndon
1481
01:30:49.800 --> 01:30:53.119
Johnson must have planned the Kennedy assassination. Take away the
1482
01:30:53.199 --> 01:30:58.520
fingerprint and you have nothing really connecting Lyndon Johnson with
1483
01:30:58.680 --> 01:31:01.279
the mechanics of the Kennedy necessities.
1484
01:31:01.880 --> 01:31:04.520
And that was the lynchpin that I was mentioning before,
1485
01:31:04.920 --> 01:31:08.560
because the thing is that it is, you know, a contentious,
1486
01:31:08.800 --> 01:31:13.439
uh you know, possibility that Johnson had exerted some influence
1487
01:31:13.760 --> 01:31:17.560
possibly when it came to the Kinser trial, and certainly
1488
01:31:17.720 --> 01:31:22.079
mac Wallace was involved with Lyndon Johnson, and Lyndon Johnson
1489
01:31:22.199 --> 01:31:24.720
was involved. By by the way, it's not to say
1490
01:31:24.760 --> 01:31:28.199
that Lyndon Johnson was an innocent or a clean uh
1491
01:31:28.399 --> 01:31:31.760
you know individual when it came to you know, various
1492
01:31:32.279 --> 01:31:35.359
There's been various accusations, some of them founded, some of
1493
01:31:35.439 --> 01:31:38.319
them not well founded, about all kinds of things that
1494
01:31:38.399 --> 01:31:42.479
Johnson did. Even publicly at that time, there were scandals
1495
01:31:42.479 --> 01:31:46.039
about Johnson when he was vice president, being involved in
1496
01:31:46.479 --> 01:31:52.600
various underhanded dealings and bribery type scandals and things like this,
1497
01:31:53.439 --> 01:31:55.680
and it's a possibility. This is why it was very
1498
01:31:55.760 --> 01:31:59.880
easy when you put that supposed fingerprint along with the
1499
01:32:00.079 --> 01:32:03.000
fact that this guy was obviously like to put it
1500
01:32:03.039 --> 01:32:06.439
another way, it's almost like he's a Johnson stooge that
1501
01:32:06.680 --> 01:32:08.520
you know, at least that's the way he was represented.
1502
01:32:09.119 --> 01:32:11.479
And if you imagine that he was involved in all
1503
01:32:11.520 --> 01:32:14.039
these criminal activities, he was a murderer, as you just
1504
01:32:14.159 --> 01:32:16.840
laid out, Uh, you know, clearly was a murderer in
1505
01:32:16.960 --> 01:32:19.720
fact of kinser, then it would it was so much
1506
01:32:19.800 --> 01:32:22.279
easier to take that tie it all together. But there
1507
01:32:22.439 --> 01:32:24.039
is a problem here. Isn't their job.
1508
01:32:24.680 --> 01:32:27.840
The problem is that it wasn't his print, And it
1509
01:32:28.000 --> 01:32:31.319
wasn't and I did the I hired people and did
1510
01:32:31.399 --> 01:32:37.000
the We did the most modern scientific analysis of the print,
1511
01:32:37.680 --> 01:32:39.279
and it wasn't him.
1512
01:32:39.960 --> 01:32:40.760
Right now, you could do it.
1513
01:32:41.680 --> 01:32:44.960
They can swing from the rafters. It just wasn't his print.
1514
01:32:45.359 --> 01:32:47.319
Now you're gonna have to make Now as far as
1515
01:32:47.439 --> 01:32:51.680
Johnson's crimes, I'm really looking into Johnson's career. One of
1516
01:32:51.720 --> 01:32:55.800
the most telling aspects of Johnson, and of course it's
1517
01:32:55.880 --> 01:32:59.319
not it's kept out of the biographies Robert A. Carow,
1518
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:06.560
Robert Dallak, these people do. They leave Billy Solestes out,
1519
01:33:07.119 --> 01:33:10.159
and they leave Madeline Brown out, who's a lawyer herself anyway,
1520
01:33:10.560 --> 01:33:13.720
and they leave out a lot of They can't leave
1521
01:33:13.720 --> 01:33:18.079
out everything. For example, Huh. They certainly couldn't leave out
1522
01:33:18.159 --> 01:33:20.279
the fact that Johnson had no business being in the
1523
01:33:20.399 --> 01:33:25.640
United States Senate because he subverted the election. And that
1524
01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:28.880
was called Box thirteen. And I found new information about
1525
01:33:28.960 --> 01:33:31.920
Box thirteen. But it certainly is mentioned in Robert Carroll's
1526
01:33:31.960 --> 01:33:36.359
book The Billy Solestes Crimes that Johnson was involved in
1527
01:33:36.479 --> 01:33:40.680
proffiting from the scams of Billy Solestes. You know, when
1528
01:33:40.720 --> 01:33:43.640
people looked in, Johnson could keep his name out of everything.
1529
01:33:44.079 --> 01:33:47.079
He could get involved in all sorts of criminal activity
1530
01:33:47.359 --> 01:33:49.359
and his name would not appear. You could not pin
1531
01:33:49.439 --> 01:33:51.640
any of it on him. People had a hard time
1532
01:33:51.760 --> 01:33:55.560
everybody's looking and I could understand. But nonetheless, it seems
1533
01:33:55.920 --> 01:33:59.079
pretty apparent that what Johnson did was to sell public
1534
01:33:59.199 --> 01:34:02.880
office for no profit. And so all the contracts that
1535
01:34:03.680 --> 01:34:06.279
went to Texas, he got a cut out of everything
1536
01:34:06.680 --> 01:34:09.560
that Brown and Route that he started out helping them
1537
01:34:09.640 --> 01:34:12.079
in the late nineteen thirties. The minute he got into
1538
01:34:12.439 --> 01:34:16.520
the House of Representatives, and in the second phase of
1539
01:34:16.680 --> 01:34:19.680
the Marshall Ford damn, not the first, but the second phase,
1540
01:34:20.119 --> 01:34:22.119
they would this is what made Brown and root. They
1541
01:34:22.159 --> 01:34:24.079
were nothing to for that. And to top it off
1542
01:34:24.640 --> 01:34:27.600
of Brown and through Johnson's efforts, Johnson got on the
1543
01:34:27.720 --> 01:34:32.079
Naval Service Committee, Naval Affairs Committee the minute he got
1544
01:34:32.159 --> 01:34:35.159
to the House, with the help of Roosevelt. Franklin Roosevelt,
1545
01:34:35.439 --> 01:34:43.640
who Johnson managed to tell convinced was that Johnson presented
1546
01:34:43.720 --> 01:34:46.159
himself as a new dealer, and so Roosevelt liked it.
1547
01:34:46.239 --> 01:34:48.720
The fact is Johnson believed that nothing, had no principles,
1548
01:34:48.760 --> 01:34:51.680
had no morality, was a liar, but he managed to
1549
01:34:53.119 --> 01:34:55.880
I don't know that flattery, tremendous amount of flattery and
1550
01:34:56.079 --> 01:34:58.920
what some people call it the Texas charm. I don't
1551
01:34:58.960 --> 01:35:01.760
find the Texas charm very charming. I find it chilling,
1552
01:35:02.359 --> 01:35:04.960
but some find it charming, and they liked the flattery
1553
01:35:05.119 --> 01:35:08.800
and whatever, And Sir Johnson got on the Naval Affairs Committee,
1554
01:35:08.800 --> 01:35:10.640
and the first thing that he did there was to
1555
01:35:10.760 --> 01:35:14.159
make sure that the Corpus Christie Naval Station, which was
1556
01:35:15.119 --> 01:35:16.760
just this is at the turn of World War II
1557
01:35:17.720 --> 01:35:20.880
was awarded to primarily, not totally, but primarily to Brown
1558
01:35:20.920 --> 01:35:24.920
and Route. They had never built the military. Now after
1559
01:35:25.000 --> 01:35:28.399
that they built many, many military bases, but that was
1560
01:35:28.640 --> 01:35:30.560
They never had built a naval base. They never had
1561
01:35:30.600 --> 01:35:34.239
built a ship. They suddenly became shipbuilders after World War Two.
1562
01:35:34.359 --> 01:35:37.640
They bought from the government the pipelines that the government
1563
01:35:37.720 --> 01:35:40.800
no longer needed gas pipelines, big inch and a little inch,
1564
01:35:41.159 --> 01:35:44.000
and that became Texas Eastern, one of the biggest subsidiaries
1565
01:35:44.079 --> 01:35:46.960
of Brown and Room and so forth. Now we cannot
1566
01:35:47.119 --> 01:35:50.119
prove that Johnson was given a cut. We certainly can
1567
01:35:50.239 --> 01:35:55.079
prove that illegal campaign contributions came to Johnson from Brown
1568
01:35:55.159 --> 01:35:57.720
and Route because they were brought before the Internal Revenue
1569
01:35:57.760 --> 01:36:00.439
Service for it, and Rosela had got them off with
1570
01:36:00.520 --> 01:36:03.159
a very small fun and that was in the nineteen
1571
01:36:03.239 --> 01:36:07.000
forty one election. Johnson had run for the United States
1572
01:36:07.079 --> 01:36:08.960
Senate in nineteen forty one.
1573
01:36:08.920 --> 01:36:09.600
And n one.
1574
01:36:10.159 --> 01:36:15.039
Okay, So Joan just detailed a whole bunch of LBJ
1575
01:36:15.560 --> 01:36:21.960
horror story, okay, and gave you some serious facts. Now
1576
01:36:22.039 --> 01:36:24.239
I disagree with her about some of the stuff she said.
1577
01:36:24.319 --> 01:36:28.159
But Brown and Root later on gets folded into a
1578
01:36:28.199 --> 01:36:32.359
little thing called Haliburton, and they're profiteering over Vietnam. I
1579
01:36:32.399 --> 01:36:36.399
didn't even mention it here, but check it out. There's
1580
01:36:36.439 --> 01:36:37.520
the stuff she's talking about.
1581
01:36:37.560 --> 01:36:37.680
Now.
1582
01:36:37.760 --> 01:36:41.720
She thinks Johnson just sold political office, but he had
1583
01:36:41.840 --> 01:36:46.399
some serious, just you know, straight up criminal enterprises going on,
1584
01:36:46.640 --> 01:36:48.319
and if people got in away or look to make
1585
01:36:48.399 --> 01:36:52.760
some noise or actually could effectively throw things off, they
1586
01:36:52.800 --> 01:36:55.319
were gotten rid of for very small amounts of cash.
1587
01:36:56.640 --> 01:36:59.000
Now I'm not saying that mac Wallace was a hitman,
1588
01:37:00.159 --> 01:37:03.159
but he did kill Kenser got off on that weird,
1589
01:37:03.640 --> 01:37:08.600
you know, only in Texas law kind of thing, and
1590
01:37:08.960 --> 01:37:10.760
looks like Johnson might have had a little something to
1591
01:37:10.800 --> 01:37:14.600
do with that. But anyway, lots of stuff to dig
1592
01:37:14.680 --> 01:37:18.479
into there. And see how packed an interview is with Joan.
1593
01:37:19.000 --> 01:37:20.960
I'm trying to talk to her about Garrison. It goes
1594
01:37:21.039 --> 01:37:23.920
into I mentioned something she tears off on because I
1595
01:37:24.039 --> 01:37:29.119
knew the work she was doing. She hadn't published Faustian
1596
01:37:29.159 --> 01:37:31.920
Bargain yet, but she had done she did research. Matter
1597
01:37:31.920 --> 01:37:35.680
of fact, there's probably five six books worth of research
1598
01:37:35.760 --> 01:37:42.119
and interviews and things easily that like a horrible author
1599
01:37:42.199 --> 01:37:46.880
could dump into a program that Joan put together that
1600
01:37:47.000 --> 01:37:53.439
could be solid historical records of various things. The extra
1601
01:37:53.560 --> 01:37:57.359
stuff that wasn't included in the manuscripts to some of
1602
01:37:57.439 --> 01:38:00.479
these other books. There's more stuff on mac Wallace that
1603
01:38:00.640 --> 01:38:03.479
wasn't included in Faustian Bargain. There's more stuff that wasn't
1604
01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:07.279
included in Farewell to Justice. I gotta tell you I
1605
01:38:07.439 --> 01:38:10.640
had knowledge of some of it, so, you know, breaking
1606
01:38:10.680 --> 01:38:15.439
down the fourth wall here. I was revealing and getting
1607
01:38:15.479 --> 01:38:17.479
her to reveal stuff, and I didn't think she was
1608
01:38:17.520 --> 01:38:20.680
going to go in certain directions because books hadn't been
1609
01:38:20.720 --> 01:38:23.359
published yet. A bunch of them had not been published yet.
1610
01:38:25.520 --> 01:38:31.439
It was crazy, crazy time. Anyway, I'm going to continue
1611
01:38:31.479 --> 01:38:35.600
this tribute in a part two coming up, so I'm
1612
01:38:35.640 --> 01:38:37.960
going to ask you to continue to listen to the
1613
01:38:38.039 --> 01:38:40.560
Ocelli effect. I think I'm going to continue to play
1614
01:38:40.680 --> 01:38:44.479
this interview in part two, and I'm going to play
1615
01:38:44.479 --> 01:38:47.239
a piece at least from another one on a completely
1616
01:38:47.279 --> 01:38:50.479
different subject, and we'll see where that goes. There are
1617
01:38:50.600 --> 01:38:53.279
some years apart here, and like I said, only a
1618
01:38:53.359 --> 01:38:56.199
couple of years back I had interviewed her about her
1619
01:38:56.239 --> 01:38:59.399
cat Fishing book two. And maybe I'll figure out a.
1620
01:38:59.399 --> 01:38:59.880
Way to dig that.
1621
01:39:00.199 --> 01:39:02.560
I'm sure it's still probably available. If you go down
1622
01:39:02.600 --> 01:39:05.119
on the Speaker list, you might be able to find
1623
01:39:05.319 --> 01:39:07.760
that old Joan Mellon interview still up there, because I
1624
01:39:07.880 --> 01:39:09.800
try and keep the best stuff on that list as
1625
01:39:09.880 --> 01:39:11.680
long as I can until I run out of space
1626
01:39:12.000 --> 01:39:15.600
for the RSS feed on Spreaker, which is paid till
1627
01:39:15.640 --> 01:39:19.159
next year. So even if my show stops producing new stuff,
1628
01:39:19.640 --> 01:39:22.840
guess what, that Spreaker feed will still be there for
1629
01:39:22.920 --> 01:39:25.119
a year, So download and get what you can while
1630
01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:30.520
you can. Please. Anyway, I'm going to continue the o'celli
1631
01:39:30.640 --> 01:39:36.199
effect tribute to Joan Mellon after I take a quick
1632
01:39:36.279 --> 01:39:39.399
pause here and we go to break, and I'm going
1633
01:39:39.479 --> 01:39:41.439
to break the stream so that we break this into
1634
01:39:41.479 --> 01:39:45.079
separate files for people to get hold of. Maybe we'll
1635
01:39:45.079 --> 01:39:46.920
do three parts. I don't know, but at least two
1636
01:39:47.000 --> 01:39:50.319
parts tribute to Joan Mellon here on this July tenth
1637
01:39:51.199 --> 01:39:52.560
of twenty twenty five.
1638
01:39:52.680 --> 01:39:55.199
People stick around
1639
01:40:06.359 --> 01:40:24.199
Sh