Psychedelic Therapy Methods | Dr. Reid Robison on Ketamine, MDMA, Psilocybin & Mental Health

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Welcome to the Observatory Podcast.
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With your hosts Scott and Lorey Wright.
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Join us each week as we explore living life from
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the inside out.
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Today on the Observatory Podcast, we welcome doctor Reed Robinson,
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who is the chief clinical officer for Numinus and also
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has several local clinics known as Cedar Psychiatry.
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We are so excited to have him here. He has
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his own podcast, he has an Instagram, and he talks
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about this subject that great depth there and we're going
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to take him deep today. So come and join us
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as we talk about the world of psychedelic therapy, how
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music is important in what we do, and how it
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is really having a powerful effect in the lives of
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people that are dealing with such difficult things as anxiety, stress, PTSD,
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suicidal thoughts, all sorts of different things that are widespread today.
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Hopefully this will be something that can help those who
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are struggling.
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Yes, I love that this is ancient medicine for today's problems.
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Yes, we welcome doctor Reed Robison. Welcome back to the
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Observatory Podcast. We are Ray and I Low Ray. I
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call her Ray. I'm I'm gonna call you Ray.
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A lot, you know that's fine. I think that's perfect.
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Okay.
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But her name's lo Ray. She's my Ray of Sunshine.
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Yes, I like to call her.
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But we're joined today by Reid Robinson from Cedar Psychiatry.
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Hi read Hi, thanks for having me.
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It's great to have you here.
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Good to be here.
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We met a few years back. We were at a
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Mastermind event together and then we also rubbed shoulders at
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the Scepter convention that they had here in Salt Lake,
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which was pretty amazing the number of people that attended
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that what is Sceptor? Maybe just explain what that is
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if you don't mind.
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So.
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I remember meeting a psychologist friend colleague at a dinner
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party a little while before that, Parth Gandhi, and we
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had this idea that just came up during dinner about
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the community waiting to happen in Utah around psychedelics. There
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wasn't to my knowledge, another psychedelic gathering that had happened before,
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so we decided to go for it. We made a
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nonprofit called Scepter for the goal of doing this conference
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and some other activities around raising awareness, education training, and
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we were not conference organizers, had no idea what we
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were doing with zero budget to start with, and it
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was really inspiring what happened in terms of the five
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hundred people who showed up and the sponsor supporting it
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in its first year Sight Unseen. I think about that
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event and the energy around it a lot.
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Yeah, right, I remember MAPS was involved, they got on board,
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and then you had some great guests that came from
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Harvard and from all across the country.
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Yeah.
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The day after this, we call it the Inner Mountain
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Psychedelics Conference or the Scepter Convention, like you mentioned, the
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day after MAPS did their Zendo harm reduction training downtown
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Salt Lake. That happened to be their biggest ever event
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of that kind, the most attended, which was another great
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kind of high five for Utah.
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Yeah, well that's great.
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Pretty amazing. I think, you know, we're throwing out a
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lot of acronyms here, so not knowing how many people
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are going to know what those media. Let's kind of
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start at the beginning. You know, we're here to talk
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about lots of different things. But the the research that's
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being done into the benefits of using psychedelics for therapy,
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for PTSD, for anxiety depression, dession, all of these things
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that you know, we're looking at new ways of approaching
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these old problems that are beyond what SSR eyes and
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different different things have done, rather than the way I
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like to say, those kind of numb the feelings, whereas
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the introduction into plant medicine helps us to process the
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feelings instead of down because if we don't process them,
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they just they can't be dealt with. Would you agree
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with that?
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Yes?
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And what's interesting about the quest to find new ways
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of approaching these age old problems is we've actually landed
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on old, forgotten, banished ways of healing and growing and
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cultivating awareness that we're unfortunately gone for a while, but
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now are coming back at a much needed time.
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Yeah, it's ancient technology. Yep, it really is. Have you
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had a chance to read the book The.
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What's it called The Immortality Key?
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The Immortality Key. Yeah, that's a good one, a great book.
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Yeah, I highly recommend it.
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So tell us a little bit then about your practice
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and what you're doing, perhaps give us kind of a
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big picture of view, and then we'll dive a little
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deeper into certain areas. But how are you incorporating this
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type of medicine in your daily practice with your patients?
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And those you see.
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Yeah, so it might help to give a little backstory
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of how I got into this is. I'm a psychiatrist
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trained here in Utah med School residency at the University
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of Utah, and at the beginning of my career, I
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decided to focus on finding new and improved treatments for
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mental health conditions, especially those where what we have available
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isn't that great. There's some serious conditions where we don't
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have good medicines, for example, or good therapies for that matter.
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So I started doing clinical trials. I was getting a
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little bit discouraged. Then I came across ketamine, and we
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can dive into that as much as you'd like, but
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ketamine kind of led me down this beautiful rabbit hole
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of exploring psychedelic medicines for mental health conditions, where I
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went to the jungle and back in search of new treatments,
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finding ayahuasca, and then since then working here in the
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US on clinical research studies with MDMA psilocybin, and last
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week we even kicked off an LSD study for anxiety
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in our Draper clinic.
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Well, that's so fascinating to know that that's happening here
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in Utah. We see the studies that are coming out
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of like Johns Hopkins and Stamford, and so are those
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studies linked or how is Utah all of a sudden
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involved in studies? How did it find its way here
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to you and to Utah.
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You know, Utah has always been a great place to
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do research because you have this very this like this
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very open community towards contributing to research in that way.
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And so there have been a lot of discoveries made here,
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like breast cancer genes and other things like that. So, yes,
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the studies started at Johns Hopkins and other places in
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this modern psychedelic renaissance, but now we're doing them here
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as well to help with the path towards FDA approval
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of these as new treatments, which will probably start with
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MDMA for PTSD that I would guess will likely be
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approved next year, and then psilocybin in the next couple
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of years for depression.
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That's so fascinating.
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Yeah, you know, I've I've kind of tried to look
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at history. I'm a late baby boomer, as Ray is,
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I was born in sixty one. Cool, so neither one
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of us were really in the hippie generation so much,
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but we got to kind of observe the hippie generation
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and see what that that what came of that, and
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the war on drugs and all of those things we
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got to witness, and you know, looking back on it,
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it was sex, drugs, rock and roll back in the
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sixties and seventies, and things kind of got a little
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bit out of balance with the use of these kinds
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of things.
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Is you know, we're.
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Humans, and so this is this is what we do.
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It's fun, So this is what we're gonna do. So
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maybe just speak to how what the difference is of
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how things are being used now as opposed to the
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way they were then.
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Yeah, and back then, I like to remember the cultural
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climate at the time.
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Post World War Two.
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Yeah, yeah, where World War Two created this culture of
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emotional avoidance. Understandably, if you were sent off to war,
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you had to self regulate like you've never had to
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do before and squash those emotions when you're sitting in
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a trench and facing such atrocities. But then when Vietnam
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War came along, they were drafting people based on their birthdays.
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You had this counterculture movement, like you said, of the
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hippie generation, saying make like drop acid not bombs, make
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love not war. And yeah, it did get out of hand,
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and you can see why there was this strong protest
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to I guess the status quo or the political climate,
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and unfortunately that ended in this complete ban of psychedelic
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medicines for both clinical and research purposes. They were on
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a good trajectory and getting enthusiastically consumed in other settings too.
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There was even studies being done by the government with
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the different psychedelics to be used for good purposes.
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And in the nineteen fifties, the laboratory where Albert Hoffman
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discovered synthesized LSD sandos, they started mailing it freely to
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psychiatrists across the US and Canada, saying, use this in therapy.
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It appears to be very interesting. And you had celebrities
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like Carry Grant using it, the Beatles taking a liking
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to it. Even Bill Wilson, the founder of Alcoholics Anonymous,
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credited his sobriety to LSD. At the time. Wanted to
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get that more publicly known, but the board wouldn't have it.
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It just was not the time back then.
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Yeah, that enlightenment experience that he described was an LSD experience,
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it seems to be.
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Yeah.
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And I remember when I went through twelve step programs
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and being one of the ones that it was the
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father of them all, and read books about Bill Wilson
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that just never really got mentioned. It was kind of
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lost over.
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So it's true.
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And just before that time you had the great thinkers
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and psychology pioneers like Carl Jung, for example, saying, you know,
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these conditions are hard to treat. If only we could occasion,
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like a mystical or spiritual experience to get someone out
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of themselves and see this with new perspective, see where
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they're stuck. That would be transformative. And he said things
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like that just before this first wave of the psychedelic
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renaissance came along in the fifties sixties.
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So what would you say to the people that say,
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or might might believe or have in their thinking that
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this is some kind of chemical reaction in your brain
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and it's that's all it is, is a chemical reaction.
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There's no connection to this divine source or your real
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true self or any of that. What would you say
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to that? I mean, you've had the experience. So you've
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been to the jungle. I've been to the jungle too, Yeah,
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tell us about that.
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Yeah, Well, first I'd say I understand the fear, like
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I grew up with the this is your brain on
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drugs campaigns as well. And I'd also say that, yes,
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these medicines do via chemical reaction, occasion that kind of
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experience in your brain. But that's how our brains work.
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We are having chemical reactions right now, as we speak,
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as we imagine things, as we think, as we feel.
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That is how our brains work. And unfortunately, in today's world,
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today's society, we accumulate as we grow up these self
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limiting beliefs, these core unconscious beliefs and patterns that constrain
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how we think, how we believe. And well, it's not
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the only way to open up our minds. Again, Psychedelics
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have proven to be a really effective way of doing that,
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especially when an individual is really stuck in an inability
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to see themselves clearly and see what they're stuck in.
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Now, when you say stuck, so there's a lot of
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ways people can be stuck, But in your experience, what
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are some of the most common ways people get stuck
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that are most limiting Because we can think like, oh,
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they get stuck in the experience of war. They get
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stuck in the experience of you know, a really traumatic event.
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But we have a lot of just day to day
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things that can make us get stuck.
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Yeah, and I like to look for the common thread
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across all those ways we get stuck, Like if you
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take time out of the equation, depression doesn't become just
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ruminating about the past as much, and the anxiety doesn't
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become as much about worrying about the future. It becomes
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thought pattern loop that we're stuck in. Addiction, doing the
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same thing over and over, perhaps to numb out pain,
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for example, becomes the same kind of stuck pattern. And
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eating disorder we get stuck in that same pattern, whether
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it's over consuming in like a binge eating or a
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restricting not letting yourself eat and trauma. You can get
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stuck in this fight or flight place of something terrible
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that happened at the time when you didn't have the
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resources to process it and had to file it away
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in kind of a stuck place.
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Yeah, It's fascinating because we often see or meet people
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that have events that happened very early in childhood that
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planted that sea of getting stuck that send a message
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very clearly, like either I'm not loved or I'm not enough,
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or a pattern that then they through the rest of
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their experiences they kind of build on that initial experience,
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and so that stuck part can be something that's been
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with us, like you said, unconsciously for a long time.
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Yeah, that's the really hard part is often beneath the surface,
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out of our conscious awareness, we all have this dialogue
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going on in our minds and there, what do people say,
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they are like ninety thousand thoughts we're having each day,
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and only a small percentage of them really that we're
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conscious of. But they can be recurring, self limiting, negative
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beliefs that are hard to even shine a light on
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sometimes let alone change. I mean, I think awareness is
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the first step or the greatest change agent. So when
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you can see them, then you can have that realization
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and start to do the work on releasing those Yeah.
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Yeah, I you know, there's there's something that I say.
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One of the reasons we called this podcast the Observatory
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because it's about being able to observe yourself, So I
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call it you observing you being you. I love that
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being able to see yourself and in all the different
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ways that you show up. You're the hardest person for
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you to know. But plant medicines and different types of
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therapies that include those, it's like, I don't know, it's
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it's really hard to explain it because it's it's an
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ineffable experience, but it really does. It's like a it's
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like a brain reset to be able to see a
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new perspective and experience it in a new way where
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you can let those things kind of dissipate and be
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present with what's happening.
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Yeah, I love that. And I've got to say that
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has been the greatest thing, single greatest thing that psychedelic medicines,
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plant medicines have given to me in my experience with them,
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and what I've observed with so many others is awareness.
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Just being able to see myself more clearly, and that
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allows me to slip into that observer state and now
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when things come along, they don't derail me like they
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used to, where I don't get stuck in the same
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patterns as much because I can observe, like you said,
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sit with and then more consciously act.
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Yeah, and I don't want to act like as we're
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talking here that psychedelics are the answer right, because there's
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so many different ways of coming to that same space
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that don't require that. For some people they need the
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power of that to get to that space, but for others,
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you know, maybe meditation, it may be breath work. There's
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just so many other modalities or opportunities to get to
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that same kind of space. So we don't want to
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say that this is the one and only way. And
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so some people don't need any of that. They're just
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kind of naturally in that space.
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And in the way I use the word psychedelic, the
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medicine doesn't even have to be part of it. The
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word psychedelic means to wander in the mind and anything
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that helps you get into that place of awareness and
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wandering around in your inner world and scene with new eyes,
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whether it's breath work, whether it's a dedicated deep meditation
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practice that can get you into that same psychedelic state.
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Like you said, some people, especially when there's been a
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lot of trauma, for example, it might have always been
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too overwhelming to go there, or when the patterns are
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so deeply ingred. Sometimes psychedelic medicines do present like this
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really important step in the journey to open the door
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to that to be able to do deeper and deeper work.
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But it's certainly not for everyone not to be taken
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lightly and not the only path up the mountain.
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Ray mentioned as we were kind of preparing for this
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that this chart that you shared when we were at
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the ES at the go ahead and talk about that.
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Huh.
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Well, I remember a presentation that you gave you shared
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with the audience. I called it a harm chart, So
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I'm sure if that's what you called it, but in
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my mind that's what I've labeled and shared, and it
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showed it had a great list of all types of
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medicines that are in our natural living life today, so
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whether those are antidepressants or you know, medicines to help
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us focus. And I believe on the one extreme had
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alcohol had the most harm, and then on the other
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extreme with the least harm. I was very surprised to
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see psilocybin, so it planned a curiosity in me. And
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as you talked about it, I just I have shared
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that chart, especially with people who struggle with alcohol, to
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understand the harm because the harm, well, I'll let you
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talk about it. The harm comes in many ways.
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Yeah, And so no medicine is without risk. I think
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it's an important thing to highlight. But these medicines have
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been kind of unfortunately, kind of excessively blamed for potential harm.
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And that chart comes from a really important study that
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a researcher by the name of David Nutt did in
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the UK. He was like overall drug policy and did
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this survey, this really elegant, powerful study plotting all the
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types of harm and across all the drugs of abuse,
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legal and illegal, and psychedelic medicines did land on the
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side of extremely safe in comparison to other things we use,
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like you mentioned, even the legal things like alcohol responsible
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for so many, so many accidents, deaths, domestic violence, you know,
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health problems, things like that.
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And not really addictive. I mean, I don't know anyone
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that is a friend of mine or people that I've
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known that I've talked about that say hey, I want
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to do this every day. It's just not that way.
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Yeah, they can be much more anti addictive when used
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in the right context, like paired with the right therapy,
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the right set and setting, they can be powerful therapy
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accelerators in recovering from addiction and other things. But yeah,
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like you said, they're not something. They're not medicines that
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people seek out like they do other things like cocaine
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with its dope, meine surge, or opiates where there's a
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kind of a numbing or a checking out or you know,
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a blissful state people seek that can be so harmful
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across many areas of their lives.
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Yeah, that chart was really fascinating. I remember because I
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saw adderall. I saw a lot that people feel are
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just fine because a doctor prescribes them, and there's a
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belief that well, my doctor would never prescribe something to
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me that is unsafe, and yet here were a lot
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of pharmaceuticals that are prescribed every day on this chart
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that I was that I saw the amount of harm
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that could come.
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Yeah.
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It's something that has, I guess troubled me since the
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beginning of my career in psychiatry is that sometimes the
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medicines we use, say it's like a Trenk equalizer for
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sleep or anxiety, that people can become physiologically hooked on accidentally,
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just like you can on pain pills after a surgery,
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and then you had these I noticed these other treatments
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in psychiatry where it was just kind of a band
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aid approach to symptoms rather than going for the underlying cause.
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So when I stumbled upon this other way of diving
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deep inside yourself using these things that aren't a daily pill,
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it's a journey with preparation before, integration after, and then
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coming out and doing the work. I was all in
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on trying to bring that more and more into our
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everyday healthcare system.
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Yeah, tell us a little bit about was there anything
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in your personal life that made you more drawn to
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this or was it really your curiosity in terms of
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just the practice and seeing what had been done and
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what you felt could be a different answer.
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You know there, Like I mentioned, psychedelic medicines have brought
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me a lot personally in terms of my own journey
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of kind of healing and growth and awareness. But even
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in my family, my grandmother Barbara died of alcoholism, and
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we were so close and she was such a key
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person in my life that when I was at the
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University of Utah early in my career, I even started
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a free clinic named after her, the Polisi Clinic, which
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was her last name, trying to bring mental health treatments
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to more people who were struggling. And when I think
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about the history of say psychedelics. We were talking about
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LSD when it was freely sent around in the fifties,
397
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sixties and and studied over thousands of people in the
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US and Canada in clinical trials. They were already seen
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back then that it was nearly three times better than
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any alcoholism treatment. Like in alcoholism, you can take this
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pill called ant abuse that'll just make you throw up
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if you take the pill, and you have to remember
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to take the pill. That's the big hard part. It's
404
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just kind of a crutch that's helpful for some. I
405
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don't want to diminish that. But when you had LSD
406
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plus therapy three times better for a condition where like
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one hundred million people have died of alcoholism, including my grandmother.
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I think of if those medicines had not gone away
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for decades, how many lives could we have saved. Yeah,
410
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it gets really personal.
411
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Yeah, I can hear that. I can understand that.
412
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Yeah, so let me this isn't really switching gears. But
413
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I think people are interested in knowing the process because
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right now, ketamine really is the only thing that's that's
415
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legally being able to be used in a therapy setting
416
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in at least in this state and tell me if
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I'm wrong about that. But you know the process of
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what that entails, and how someone would access that, what
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they could do to be involved in that, and who
420
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it's for.
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And that's that's true that in terms of psychedelic medicines,
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ketamine is the main legal psychedelic outside of research studies.
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So here and what is ketymine?
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Yeah, so ketamine is now being classified more and more
425
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as a psychedelic because it does fit that definition of
426
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creating an altered state of consciousness with therapeutic potential. And
427
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even though it started out as an anesthetic discovered decades
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ago and used on millions of people going in for
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procedure surgery, that's the first time I ever gave it.
430
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It was when I was in my medical training and
431
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the primary children's hospital er. We would give it to
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kids before they'd get sutures so they could hold still.
433
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And so when it came along in psychiatry, there was
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just this accidental discovery that people coming out of ketamine
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doses appeared to be less depressed, and so a clinical
436
00:27:22.319 --> 00:27:27.400
trial was done with like astounding results seventy percent had
437
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relief from depression. And so another study replicated that, and
438
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then we all start to started to get really interested
439
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in it. I think my first clinical trial with ketamine
440
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was back in about twenty ten, and that was when
441
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we were really just looking at the medicine like what
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it could do alone. And now more and more we're
443
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just pairing it with therapy targeted at these different important conditions.
444
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And yes, you can come in and access ketamine, ketemine
445
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assistant psychotherapy for a variety of conditions, and psychedelic medicines
446
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are here in Utah via research studies like we just
447
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did a psilocybin study for depression and last week we
448
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opened up like I mentioned, an LSD study for generalized
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anxiety and other medicines coming soon. So you can participate
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in way in either way, like if you qualify for
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a study, those can be legally accessed, or you can
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seek ketamine and therapy through a clinic setting.
453
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And the way you qualify for a study is through
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your doctor. Correct the doctor will refer you to the
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study that you are conducting or.
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You know, that's one way, and doctors don't always hear
457
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about all the studies. So I think it's an example
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of in the healthcare system and especially the state of
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US healthcare. You do have to take the reins yourself
460
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in a lot of cases and be open and collaborative
461
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with your doctor, for sure. But I think we're or
462
00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:05.640
letting go of that old approach of it's only what
463
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the doctor gives and we just take it no matter what,
464
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like you mentioned about certain drugs and their harm potential.
465
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But you can seek out studies on your own, like
466
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you know, on our research Clinic website, we list off
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these studies that are active, whether it's a psychedelic or not,
468
00:29:24.559 --> 00:29:26.519
and people can just call in and see if they
469
00:29:26.599 --> 00:29:29.440
qualify on the phone, get a quick screening, and then
470
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come in for a careful evaluation if it seems like
471
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it might fit.
472
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That's great to know.
473
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Yeah, so the process then you come in for a
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ketemine treatment and is it a series of treatments that
475
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.680
people usually do? And what kind of cost is there
476
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.440
for something like that? It is just an insurance covered
477
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kind of thing.
478
00:29:50.359 --> 00:29:53.839
Yeah, So these are great questions and I guess, unfortunately
479
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:58.079
and fortunately there's not one one size fits all answer.
480
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:03.079
It's a very individualized thing and it starts with you know,
481
00:30:03.359 --> 00:30:09.400
careful screening, evaluation, treatment planning to see if that medicine,
482
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say ketamine, really does make sense for you, and if
483
00:30:13.799 --> 00:30:17.359
it does, most people do end up having more than
484
00:30:17.400 --> 00:30:22.519
one session, but not always and ideally often it involves
485
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some sessions leading up to that to get ready to
486
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.880
really start to till the soil and start to dig
487
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up the things that you really want to work on,
488
00:30:34.079 --> 00:30:38.680
clarify intentions for these dosing sessions or journeys if you will,
489
00:30:39.160 --> 00:30:43.119
and then on dosing day you do come in and
490
00:30:43.319 --> 00:30:48.720
to clinic and you're supported often with like I shades, headphones, reclined,
491
00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:53.039
some music on. You receive the medicine in a very
492
00:30:53.079 --> 00:30:56.240
different ways. Keta means like an hour or so journey.
493
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:01.160
There's some processing after, and then you turn for an
494
00:31:01.160 --> 00:31:05.640
integration therapy session to really start to weave those insights
495
00:31:05.680 --> 00:31:09.039
into day to day life. But on average, the best
496
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:11.920
results with ketymine have been seen when people get say
497
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:15.559
three to six different sessions spread over a number of weeks.
498
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:20.279
So there's importance to have integration after each one, a
499
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.920
session with a therapist or journaling, some sort of integration
500
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:28.960
to integrate what they've realized, what the awareness that has
501
00:31:29.000 --> 00:31:32.319
come to themselves and kind of understanding that.
502
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:38.160
Yeah, because these medicines open up a window of opportunity
503
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:43.519
not just with awareness, but also with neuroplasticity, like the
504
00:31:43.559 --> 00:31:48.920
ability to reshape new patterns and lay down new ones,
505
00:31:49.079 --> 00:31:53.079
new conscious, healthy ways of showing up in the world.
506
00:31:53.559 --> 00:31:56.039
And if you just open up the window and don't
507
00:31:56.039 --> 00:31:58.519
do anything with it, you might come away with some
508
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.440
insights and awareness that might be lasting. You might have
509
00:32:02.480 --> 00:32:05.799
some relief from say depression or other things for a time,
510
00:32:06.440 --> 00:32:09.119
but there's a risk of it just snapping back into place.
511
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:14.960
So ketamine has benefits in both ways as a medicine
512
00:32:15.480 --> 00:32:18.640
to lift a cloud of depression for a time, letting
513
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:21.759
you do the work, but also as a psychedelic agent
514
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:27.440
facilitating awareness and that window of opportunity to do the
515
00:32:27.480 --> 00:32:28.839
work right.
516
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:31.680
Because as you see it and you become more aware,
517
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:34.319
it's like Scott and I are always talking about how
518
00:32:34.359 --> 00:32:37.599
thoughts create your reality. Like you said at the beginning,
519
00:32:37.680 --> 00:32:41.039
you really start to become aware of limiting beliefs or
520
00:32:41.079 --> 00:32:45.119
limiting thoughts self talk, and you start to work on
521
00:32:45.720 --> 00:32:50.559
just small changes in patterns or behaviors or habits to
522
00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.359
start that on the outside so that it's now working
523
00:32:53.400 --> 00:32:58.119
on the inside. In terms of how you think how
524
00:32:58.160 --> 00:33:01.759
you immediately react to any you know, external event in
525
00:33:01.799 --> 00:33:04.119
your life. You start to create that We call it
526
00:33:04.119 --> 00:33:08.160
the space where you have that moment, brief moment to
527
00:33:08.559 --> 00:33:11.839
be in choice of well, I can I can react
528
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:15.000
to this differently, I can think about this differently, I
529
00:33:15.039 --> 00:33:18.880
can see this differently. My perspective has started to change.
530
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.519
It's a shift in patterns, right, because the pattern that
531
00:33:23.000 --> 00:33:24.880
each of us have our own patterns the way we
532
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:28.079
show up, and they're ingrained in us, taught to us
533
00:33:28.119 --> 00:33:34.359
by family, religion, people, friends, whatever, whatever, education, all of
534
00:33:34.359 --> 00:33:37.839
the different sources of the of the patterning of our lives.
535
00:33:38.880 --> 00:33:41.000
But there has to be this certain point where we
536
00:33:41.240 --> 00:33:46.960
realize that we've got to uh change that perspective. It's old,
537
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:51.559
it's we're living in old old news. It's whatever our
538
00:33:51.640 --> 00:33:54.839
thinking is. Our thinking is attached to history. With our
539
00:33:54.920 --> 00:33:59.359
thinking attached to history, then we're trying to reconcile what
540
00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:02.519
happened in this moment of now with something that happened
541
00:34:02.519 --> 00:34:04.359
in the past. And what happened in this moment of
542
00:34:04.400 --> 00:34:06.759
now may not have anything to do with what I
543
00:34:06.839 --> 00:34:09.519
experienced in the past. So it's only when we can
544
00:34:09.519 --> 00:34:16.039
come to that space observing it from presence. This is
545
00:34:16.039 --> 00:34:20.320
what's actually going on, and that space isn't your mind
546
00:34:20.400 --> 00:34:22.639
figuring it out. It's a more of a feeling, is
547
00:34:22.639 --> 00:34:25.679
the way we like to describe that. How you say about.
548
00:34:25.480 --> 00:34:28.960
That kind of an embodied knowing, But I like to
549
00:34:29.039 --> 00:34:32.599
call it a moment of awakening, whether you get there
550
00:34:33.039 --> 00:34:36.519
accidentally in your life, or whether you get there in
551
00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:41.360
a course of psychedelic therapy during a dosing session with
552
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:45.719
an AHA moment or out of body experience, for example,
553
00:34:47.239 --> 00:34:51.039
I first started to touch into that. Speaking of other
554
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:57.039
ways of getting there through meditation, yoga, I also saw
555
00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:00.000
as I was teaching those things that it was really
556
00:35:00.159 --> 00:35:06.360
hard to in this modern day get people to sit
557
00:35:06.559 --> 00:35:10.039
still long enough to go that deep, or to do
558
00:35:10.119 --> 00:35:15.280
a practice over enough time with enough diligence to start
559
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:19.159
to unearth those patterns. But that's what I personally discovered
560
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:24.239
long before psychedelics through a very dedicated yoga practice that
561
00:35:24.360 --> 00:35:28.480
gave me my first glimpses of that. It was really profound.
562
00:35:28.639 --> 00:35:31.440
Yeah, and I've heard other people say that same thing
563
00:35:31.639 --> 00:35:32.880
about yoga and meditation.
564
00:35:33.239 --> 00:35:36.760
So I have a question for you. You mentioned that
565
00:35:36.840 --> 00:35:40.320
you put on headphones and that you have music. So
566
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:44.559
Scott's a big fan of the whole music process. And
567
00:35:44.639 --> 00:35:47.000
you know, I've spent a lot of time thinking about music,
568
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:49.519
like from the time that we're born, how our mothers
569
00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:52.280
sing to us as a baby, to sue us, and
570
00:35:52.360 --> 00:35:54.599
so talk to us a little bit about the importance
571
00:35:54.639 --> 00:36:00.000
of medicine music as medicine and how those very indigenous
572
00:36:00.119 --> 00:36:03.079
kind of sounds or the music, the type of music
573
00:36:03.119 --> 00:36:04.920
that you use, and why music is a part of
574
00:36:04.960 --> 00:36:05.679
the experience.
575
00:36:06.280 --> 00:36:09.920
And I love that you said music as medicine because
576
00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:12.880
that's a term we'll use at work as well, kind
577
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:18.440
of a mantra or celebrating the power that music has
578
00:36:18.440 --> 00:36:21.760
in the process of healing and growth. In fact, just
579
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:27.480
yesterday we announced some music as medicine events coming up
580
00:36:27.519 --> 00:36:32.280
when coming to Utah Cedar. The clinics that I started
581
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:36.599
with a business partner are now owned by a company
582
00:36:36.639 --> 00:36:40.280
called Numinous, who I work for as their chief clinical officer,
583
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.920
and a Numinous teamed up with East Forest to bring
584
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:48.079
these events around and Utah.
585
00:36:48.199 --> 00:36:51.280
Now, yeah, yeah, we love these Forest Oh my goodness.
586
00:36:51.639 --> 00:36:55.840
So I'll be sharing shortly. In fact, even last night
587
00:36:55.880 --> 00:36:58.719
I put it on my Instagram story. But more on
588
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:02.480
the Utah event and the other one's coming. But music
589
00:37:02.599 --> 00:37:08.239
is medicine. And when I was training in MDMA therapy
590
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:13.639
through Maps, one of my mentors, Bruce Poulter said, music
591
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.880
is the wind in the sails of the psychedelic experience.
592
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:22.880
And I've seen that play out in clinic and when
593
00:37:22.920 --> 00:37:28.920
I've gone to the jungle and and had these medicine teams.
594
00:37:29.039 --> 00:37:35.639
These shamans share not only the medicine, but the healing songs.
595
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:43.519
The chance that music as medicine that really hits a
596
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:47.719
different part of your soul and has a profound effect
597
00:37:49.039 --> 00:37:55.199
independent and especially paired with these these therapy accelerator medicines.
598
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:58.679
Yeah, the frequency and vibration that they all start to
599
00:37:58.679 --> 00:38:02.000
play in harmony with one other, he is really powerful.
600
00:38:02.679 --> 00:38:05.280
Have you do you know where? Have you heard of
601
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:07.639
or used any of the music by Budengi?
602
00:38:08.199 --> 00:38:08.840
Yeah?
603
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:12.760
I went to his concert in Salt Lake a few
604
00:38:12.760 --> 00:38:13.360
months ago.
605
00:38:13.840 --> 00:38:16.559
We were there, we didn't see you, okay, yeah.
606
00:38:16.599 --> 00:38:19.280
Well and actually that full house, it was a full house.
607
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:23.320
That's actually where the first term music is medicine came
608
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:28.440
to me because Perengi did an event, three or four
609
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:30.840
day event that we went to in Sedona. That was
610
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:34.119
music is medicine, and it was all about the music
611
00:38:34.760 --> 00:38:38.199
and his you know, his indigenous roots coming from both
612
00:38:38.239 --> 00:38:40.719
his the background of his father and his mother Brazilian
613
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:44.639
and Mexican. Mexican, and just how that music is such
614
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:47.480
a such an integral part of who he is.
615
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:50.920
Oh, yeah, it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's amazing. I saw
616
00:38:51.079 --> 00:38:54.400
the event that he was doing down there and thought
617
00:38:54.440 --> 00:38:56.760
it would be beautiful to go to. That's really neat
618
00:38:56.800 --> 00:38:57.360
that you got to go.
619
00:38:57.400 --> 00:39:00.159
I can't recommend going to that enough. I mean, it
620
00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:05.039
really shifted my own experience in music because one of
621
00:39:05.119 --> 00:39:07.679
the things that he said initially when he was at
622
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:10.360
a gathering I was out in Arizona, and he would
623
00:39:11.000 --> 00:39:14.079
talk about getting out of the way so much, allowing
624
00:39:14.079 --> 00:39:16.880
the music to play through you instead of from you.
625
00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:21.039
When you're trying to create something from your mind, it
626
00:39:21.039 --> 00:39:23.280
can be great, but when you try and just when
627
00:39:23.280 --> 00:39:25.039
you just get yourself out of the way and allow
628
00:39:25.079 --> 00:39:29.440
the music to play through you, it becomes something else.
629
00:39:29.480 --> 00:39:31.000
It's amazing.
630
00:39:31.800 --> 00:39:35.480
Yeah, it's hard to even put words around. The first
631
00:39:35.519 --> 00:39:39.880
time I ever met PEREGI was I don't know, this
632
00:39:39.960 --> 00:39:44.239
is probably six years ago at a yoga studio in Austin, Texas,
633
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:50.000
independent of any psychedelic event whatsoever. I went to this
634
00:39:50.559 --> 00:39:54.440
yoga study called Black Swan and there was this guy
635
00:39:54.719 --> 00:40:01.199
with dig redoo and all these mysterious instruments around him stuff. Yeah,
636
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:03.760
and a looper mm hm. And he started doing that
637
00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:06.440
during the whole class. And when we're laying there in
638
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:10.000
shavasan at the end, like the glorious nap time at
639
00:40:10.000 --> 00:40:13.559
the end of yoga, he's walking around blowing this digeridoo
640
00:40:13.960 --> 00:40:16.719
while all these other things are looped. It was that
641
00:40:16.840 --> 00:40:21.360
was a psychedelic experience without medicine right there, because music
642
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:23.119
was the medicine.
643
00:40:23.119 --> 00:40:24.639
And that's that's what he does.
644
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:25.440
It's amazing.
645
00:40:25.760 --> 00:40:28.440
Yeah, we had that experience at the event we went
646
00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:30.239
to in Sodona. We've been to two of his events.
647
00:40:30.239 --> 00:40:32.960
We did one in Bouldered, Utah, and then we did
648
00:40:32.960 --> 00:40:36.599
the one in Sodona and uh, just off the cuff,
649
00:40:36.639 --> 00:40:39.199
they decided one night to do an event where he
650
00:40:39.239 --> 00:40:41.360
was going to play live and do a meditation like that.
651
00:40:41.400 --> 00:40:43.559
We did breath work and then we did the cool
652
00:40:44.280 --> 00:40:46.800
the music and so powerful. There was a couple of
653
00:40:46.840 --> 00:40:49.039
moments in it where it felt like there was this
654
00:40:49.480 --> 00:40:52.119
sound swirling around and it was with the did WeDo. Again,
655
00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:54.480
He's like this did wed master. He's a master of
656
00:40:54.519 --> 00:40:58.480
pretty much everything. Yeah, but the did WeDo was pretty amazing.
657
00:40:59.400 --> 00:40:59.599
Yeah.
658
00:40:59.639 --> 00:41:02.519
I think the more the deeper you go in this
659
00:41:02.639 --> 00:41:06.000
kind of inner journey, the more you start to see
660
00:41:06.360 --> 00:41:11.199
the role of music in it and how it touches
661
00:41:11.320 --> 00:41:14.519
so many parts of your soul that might have been asleep.
662
00:41:15.400 --> 00:41:19.880
And we'll use it after psychedelic therapy, like say there's
663
00:41:19.880 --> 00:41:23.039
a special playlist that someone uses during a session, whether
664
00:41:23.079 --> 00:41:26.679
we're working with groups or individuals, we'll encourage them to
665
00:41:26.719 --> 00:41:29.840
revisit it in their own integration and meditation, to go
666
00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:34.360
back to that sacred place and revisit some of those
667
00:41:34.400 --> 00:41:36.079
special insights that came up.
668
00:41:36.719 --> 00:41:41.280
The songs can bring back some of that experience. Yeah,
669
00:41:41.320 --> 00:41:42.000
it's beautiful.
670
00:41:42.159 --> 00:41:45.840
Well, and that's another interesting aspect of Eastern medicine when
671
00:41:45.880 --> 00:41:48.079
they talk about the chakras and how there is a
672
00:41:48.199 --> 00:41:51.960
note that is flying to each of the chakras. And
673
00:41:52.039 --> 00:41:55.760
recently Scott did an album where he recorded music for
674
00:41:55.960 --> 00:41:59.360
each of the chakras. And also we've spent some time
675
00:41:59.400 --> 00:42:03.519
now diving deeper into soul Faggio frequencies and all of
676
00:42:03.559 --> 00:42:06.800
those frequencies that music, you can feel them very differently
677
00:42:06.880 --> 00:42:10.800
in your body zeparate from any kind of meta. I mean,
678
00:42:10.840 --> 00:42:13.559
they are the medicine that frequency.
679
00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:13.800
Yeah for sure.
680
00:42:13.880 --> 00:42:14.480
Yeah. Yeah.
681
00:42:14.559 --> 00:42:18.159
Sound healing is such a powerful modality that I'll even
682
00:42:18.199 --> 00:42:22.880
bring into clinics sometimes will do sound a sound bath
683
00:42:22.920 --> 00:42:28.159
event paired with breathwork or meditation, and it can be
684
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:29.000
really profound.
685
00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:31.400
I put a tepee up in my backyard and I've
686
00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:34.800
got two other women that come in. Julie Cantrell play
687
00:42:34.840 --> 00:42:39.039
singing bowls, and then another woman, Carly comes in and
688
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:42.760
she does bodywork. She's a massage therapist, so she does bodywork. Well,
689
00:42:42.800 --> 00:42:45.840
we're doing music. I'm playing all sorts of other instruments
690
00:42:45.840 --> 00:42:49.519
while Julie's doing the sound bowls, and it's been pretty cool.
691
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:53.360
Yeah, amazing. I'll have to catch one of those events.
692
00:42:54.760 --> 00:42:55.000
Now.
693
00:42:55.519 --> 00:43:00.360
I've heard you often quote doctor Groff about the quote
694
00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:02.760
that he talks. Can you kind of share that. I
695
00:43:02.800 --> 00:43:07.320
love that quote about kind of what medicine is to
696
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:07.920
the mind.
697
00:43:08.920 --> 00:43:14.960
Yeah. So he's this gentle giant of psychedelic medicine. There's
698
00:43:15.000 --> 00:43:17.840
a great documentary on him called The Way of the
699
00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:22.000
Psychoonoup and he has books called that same title. He's
700
00:43:22.320 --> 00:43:28.639
facilitated thousands of sessions with his you know amazing spacey
701
00:43:28.719 --> 00:43:34.760
Holes and Brilliant Mind, And he said something like, psychedelics
702
00:43:34.840 --> 00:43:38.480
are to the mind what you know, the telescope is
703
00:43:38.519 --> 00:43:42.039
to astronomy. And we'll do more for our understanding of
704
00:43:42.800 --> 00:43:47.159
neuroscience and how the mind works than anything yet. And
705
00:43:47.800 --> 00:43:52.840
I truly believe that as as a psychiatrist and as
706
00:43:52.880 --> 00:43:59.639
a clinical researcher a neuroscientist, I'm already I'm already seeing
707
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:03.840
that start to be realized in the research studies that
708
00:44:03.920 --> 00:44:09.039
come out about the psychedelic studies with brain imaging or EEG.
709
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:16.039
Brainwave patterns, because you have this limited dosing session or
710
00:44:16.119 --> 00:44:19.719
journey where so much happens, and you take away all
711
00:44:19.840 --> 00:44:24.119
the distracting, confounding variables of day to day life and
712
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:29.760
we get to witness transformation like awareness and transformation happening
713
00:44:29.800 --> 00:44:34.360
in real time. And that's powerful not just for the individual,
714
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.320
but how we understand ourselves as a whole and as
715
00:44:37.320 --> 00:44:38.039
a society.
716
00:44:38.360 --> 00:44:39.559
Right. Yeah, I was.
717
00:44:40.639 --> 00:44:42.599
I had a brother in law who was really struggling
718
00:44:42.679 --> 00:44:46.079
with a terminal illness and I had read where JOHNS.
719
00:44:46.079 --> 00:44:50.679
Hopkins was doing again research with the medicine around terminal
720
00:44:50.719 --> 00:44:54.440
illness and people who were facing you know that that
721
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:57.760
terminal sort of sentence, if you would call it a sentence,
722
00:44:57.800 --> 00:45:02.039
but that notion about what death was and coming to
723
00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.519
terms with sort of end of life and the beyond
724
00:45:07.320 --> 00:45:10.760
for a better word. So I know there's a lot
725
00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:13.760
of work that's being done, a very broad spectrum of
726
00:45:13.800 --> 00:45:15.440
work that's being done with the medicine.
727
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:17.920
Yeah, that's a great example of how it can be
728
00:45:18.079 --> 00:45:22.880
used in even a single session to help give someone
729
00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:26.599
a completely new perspective. Because one of our core fears
730
00:45:26.679 --> 00:45:31.480
as humans is death, the uncertainty around death and dying,
731
00:45:31.599 --> 00:45:36.000
and most people, especially in the face of a serious
732
00:45:36.760 --> 00:45:42.840
illness like end stage cancer, end of life anxiety can
733
00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.639
show up in such a troubling way and it prevents
734
00:45:47.639 --> 00:45:51.840
the individual from being able to relax and be present
735
00:45:51.880 --> 00:45:54.039
for that final chapter of their lives. It can be
736
00:45:54.079 --> 00:45:59.639
somewhat of a sacred passage. So when psychedelic medicines have
737
00:45:59.679 --> 00:46:04.639
been studied in that context, it's amazing to see psilocybin,
738
00:46:04.719 --> 00:46:08.440
for example, in a certain high dose, will reliably give
739
00:46:08.920 --> 00:46:12.880
most people in those studies one of the most meaningful
740
00:46:12.920 --> 00:46:17.800
and profound experiences of their lives that helps them move
741
00:46:18.360 --> 00:46:22.280
towards that sacred passage in a completely new way.
742
00:46:23.079 --> 00:46:23.800
And I think that's.
743
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:24.880
Beautiful, fascinating.
744
00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:25.719
It really is.
745
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:29.039
And the reason that you know we said earlier that
746
00:46:29.079 --> 00:46:32.599
it's ineffable is because each person has that experience in
747
00:46:32.639 --> 00:46:35.519
a personal way, and for you to say, well, this
748
00:46:35.559 --> 00:46:37.639
is how it is, that that's kind of the way
749
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:41.559
the belief structures of times past have functioned. You know,
750
00:46:41.880 --> 00:46:44.280
I've discovered this, so you know you need to come
751
00:46:44.360 --> 00:46:46.119
and do it this way where this just opens it
752
00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:48.360
up for every person to have their own individual path.
753
00:46:49.360 --> 00:46:52.960
Yeah, these medicines, I like how you said it because
754
00:46:53.000 --> 00:46:57.199
they do open you up to your spirituality. They don't
755
00:46:57.239 --> 00:47:03.320
impose a religious belief. I've seen people really deepen their
756
00:47:03.360 --> 00:47:09.519
beliefs in pick any religion or spiritual walk of life
757
00:47:10.320 --> 00:47:13.599
through these medicines. I'm sure some might make a one
758
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:18.480
to eighty degree turn realizing something about what they really believe.
759
00:47:18.599 --> 00:47:21.599
But I've seen so many people reclaim a belief in
760
00:47:21.679 --> 00:47:24.400
a higher power through these medicines.
761
00:47:26.480 --> 00:47:30.920
It's more real than it is just this thing out there. Yeah,
762
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.679
it's not really a belief it's an embodiment of something different.
763
00:47:35.079 --> 00:47:39.719
There was a fascinating study done in the early sixties,
764
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:46.079
the marsh Chapel Experiment. It was done by Tim Lary Dick,
765
00:47:46.159 --> 00:47:51.800
Alpert Ramdas, and Walter Panke who was like a grad student,
766
00:47:52.199 --> 00:47:57.599
and they gave divinity students in the Graduate Theology school
767
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:02.280
in Boston a high dosecil cybon. Ten got psilocybin, ten
768
00:48:02.280 --> 00:48:05.400
got placebo, And what they did during the study was
769
00:48:05.440 --> 00:48:09.119
they had them listen to a sermon by this eloquent,
770
00:48:09.199 --> 00:48:13.280
famous pastor in the basement of the Marsh Chapel. And
771
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:18.400
what was fascinating is like they all saw something different,
772
00:48:18.440 --> 00:48:21.760
like choirs of angels singing or whatever. The experience was like.
773
00:48:22.239 --> 00:48:24.639
But nine out of ten of the people who got
774
00:48:24.639 --> 00:48:31.159
psilocybin went on to become like pastors, and one out
775
00:48:31.159 --> 00:48:34.079
of ten who got placebo went on to become pastors
776
00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.599
through this school. Was just intriguing to me to see
777
00:48:37.880 --> 00:48:41.400
what it deepened for them.
778
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:44.679
Right where it took that experience just into their own
779
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.440
belief in thinking how it deepened that.
780
00:48:47.639 --> 00:48:51.400
Yeah, yeah, so I think here's a question I want
781
00:48:51.400 --> 00:48:54.719
to ask about the psilocybin research that you were involved
782
00:48:54.719 --> 00:48:57.119
in So I think there's people out there that are
783
00:48:57.119 --> 00:48:58.559
going to say, so, do you just give them a
784
00:48:58.599 --> 00:49:01.360
handful of mushrooms and they eat them? Or what form that?
785
00:49:01.639 --> 00:49:02.119
How is that?
786
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:05.199
Now? I know with scientific studies it needs to be
787
00:49:05.320 --> 00:49:09.320
in a controlled way. So is it synthesized psilocybin or
788
00:49:09.360 --> 00:49:10.360
how hell is that?
789
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:16.039
So far it is synthetic psilocybin that is still like
790
00:49:16.079 --> 00:49:18.119
in the studies at Johns Hopkins, like in the ones
791
00:49:18.119 --> 00:49:23.800
we're doing, still at this dose bringing about a very
792
00:49:23.920 --> 00:49:28.559
strong mystical type experience. But we would love to use
793
00:49:28.960 --> 00:49:34.400
naturally derived psilocybin from mushrooms, and that's coming, I believe,
794
00:49:34.480 --> 00:49:37.360
even at Numinus. We have a biosciences lab in Canada
795
00:49:37.679 --> 00:49:44.000
as working on jumping through the proper hoops for naturally
796
00:49:44.039 --> 00:49:50.079
derived psilocybin for research studies. But the FDA likes us
797
00:49:50.119 --> 00:49:52.960
in clinical research studies to focus on one thing at
798
00:49:52.960 --> 00:49:57.679
a time. Sure, there is this potential entourage effect with
799
00:49:57.719 --> 00:50:02.280
the other compounds in say magic mushrooms, they might be
800
00:50:02.280 --> 00:50:07.320
beautiful things, but to jump through the right hoops and
801
00:50:07.400 --> 00:50:11.360
to get these medicines back on track, we've had to
802
00:50:11.400 --> 00:50:17.239
focus the study on So far, synthetic psilocybin, but I
803
00:50:17.239 --> 00:50:19.119
don't think that will always be the case. I think
804
00:50:19.119 --> 00:50:22.559
that will be the case for the psilocybin that's first
805
00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:26.840
approved as a prescribable therapy. So when you come into clinic,
806
00:50:26.920 --> 00:50:32.760
you're getting capsules with synthetic psilocybin in it and or
807
00:50:33.480 --> 00:50:35.639
la cibo, you know, is how we have to control
808
00:50:35.679 --> 00:50:36.400
these experiments.
809
00:50:36.920 --> 00:50:39.039
Let me ask you one more thing along that line.
810
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:43.800
So is microdosing part of the that therapy or is
811
00:50:43.800 --> 00:50:46.760
it just dosing? Is the microdosing to take the place
812
00:50:46.800 --> 00:50:50.199
of maybe, you know, your prozacs and those different things
813
00:50:50.239 --> 00:50:50.639
out there.
814
00:50:50.760 --> 00:50:55.840
We're not doing any microdosing studies right now, and there
815
00:50:55.840 --> 00:51:00.480
are very few happening or planned in North America. There
816
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:04.199
are some that have been done recently, really really helpful ones.
817
00:51:04.239 --> 00:51:10.519
In Europe. It's harder in our regulatory environment to send
818
00:51:10.559 --> 00:51:14.719
someone home with the Schedule one banned substance, right It's
819
00:51:14.719 --> 00:51:19.480
hard enough. I had to jump through some huge hoops
820
00:51:20.000 --> 00:51:23.159
to get approval to study these medicines. It's called a
821
00:51:23.199 --> 00:51:26.719
Schedule one license for each medicine. It took many, many
822
00:51:26.760 --> 00:51:31.440
months and mountains of paperwork for each one, and it
823
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:34.639
turned out to be a really collaborative process, with even
824
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.079
the local DEA coming to inspect. It feels like we're
825
00:51:38.119 --> 00:51:41.960
all in the same team navigating this unfortunate system that
826
00:51:42.639 --> 00:51:46.199
was put in place decades ago. But we're getting there,
827
00:51:46.440 --> 00:51:51.599
and microdosing is still less understood and there are a
828
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:54.880
lot more variables in the mix. When you're taking a
829
00:51:54.920 --> 00:51:57.360
sub perceptual or a low dose and you're taking it
830
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.800
home and there's all the other noise of day to
831
00:52:00.880 --> 00:52:05.519
day life in the in the equation, including the placebo response,
832
00:52:05.559 --> 00:52:07.519
that is a powerful thing in and of itself.
833
00:52:07.800 --> 00:52:09.280
Yeah, yeah, I can see that.
834
00:52:10.039 --> 00:52:13.159
So read tell us a little bit about some of
835
00:52:13.199 --> 00:52:16.480
the sort of success stories that you've heard, or some
836
00:52:16.599 --> 00:52:20.039
of the things that you have found the most you know,
837
00:52:21.280 --> 00:52:25.360
joy in seeing come about because of this medicine, like
838
00:52:25.440 --> 00:52:28.239
with the patients you're working or with different clinical things
839
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:30.800
that's happening with the company that you work for in Canada.
840
00:52:31.320 --> 00:52:33.920
Just some of those things that inspire you to keep
841
00:52:33.960 --> 00:52:35.400
continuing down this path.
842
00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:39.840
You know, A couple things come to mind. I love
843
00:52:40.280 --> 00:52:44.840
seeing people come in for their first or an early
844
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:50.119
psychedelic journey on their healing path and to see what
845
00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:55.400
light bulbs go off. In their mind, their heart as
846
00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:01.119
they start to see connect the dots of ways they've
847
00:53:01.199 --> 00:53:06.199
been stuck in life, Like they might see their relationship
848
00:53:06.320 --> 00:53:09.519
with their parents or family members in a new light
849
00:53:09.920 --> 00:53:16.360
and see and be able to rewrite a narrative and
850
00:53:17.199 --> 00:53:23.320
release some old, tightly held, self limiting, stuck beliefs of
851
00:53:23.400 --> 00:53:29.639
being unlovable or things like that, and then to see
852
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:34.119
what happens from there, like a weight lifted off someone's shoulders,
853
00:53:35.239 --> 00:53:39.440
a sense of being free, of being important, of mattering,
854
00:53:39.559 --> 00:53:43.800
of being able to give and receive love is just
855
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:48.000
It's the most special thing I can think of to
856
00:53:48.159 --> 00:53:51.480
witness that happening. And I've seen it time and time again.
857
00:53:52.639 --> 00:53:55.079
And is it across a broad spectrum? I mean, are
858
00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:58.119
we talking about you know what age or is it
859
00:53:58.159 --> 00:54:01.920
mostly men? Women? You know, teenagers? Kind of what does
860
00:54:01.960 --> 00:54:04.679
the spectrum look like in terms of those people that
861
00:54:04.760 --> 00:54:06.239
are finding you?
862
00:54:06.239 --> 00:54:11.119
You know, I've worked with a variety of these compounds
863
00:54:11.159 --> 00:54:15.440
in research and clinical settings, and even gone out of
864
00:54:15.559 --> 00:54:20.880
country to jurisdictions where I could work with plant medicines
865
00:54:21.320 --> 00:54:24.639
when it was really important for an individual or family.
866
00:54:24.679 --> 00:54:30.519
Another another thing I've really loved to do is work
867
00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:35.760
with families and groups. Like countless occasions I've had, say
868
00:54:36.119 --> 00:54:40.760
parents and like an adult kid or an adolescent with
869
00:54:41.679 --> 00:54:44.800
who's struggling with say a serious eating disorder or severe
870
00:54:44.840 --> 00:54:48.480
PTSD or something like that, to come in and do
871
00:54:48.559 --> 00:54:53.800
the work together. I will give the medicine to parents
872
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:58.239
sometimes who are who are in it with their child,
873
00:54:58.599 --> 00:55:01.480
you know, having their own struggle in parallel and feeling
874
00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:04.440
the struggles of their child. And to see them bravely
875
00:55:04.519 --> 00:55:09.039
go in there together come out and connect on new
876
00:55:09.159 --> 00:55:14.519
deep ways soul the soul, opening their emotions to each
877
00:55:14.559 --> 00:55:17.599
other and supporting each other new ways is just the
878
00:55:17.639 --> 00:55:18.639
most touching thing.
879
00:55:19.159 --> 00:55:23.599
Well, because that narrative is really interwoven between all three people,
880
00:55:23.639 --> 00:55:26.679
each of them having this shared experience, but all of
881
00:55:26.719 --> 00:55:30.280
them having their own experience in that kind of shared event.
882
00:55:31.079 --> 00:55:38.320
Yeah, a couple's work is another really powerful way to
883
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:43.280
approach this medicine. In fact, when MBMA was legal several
884
00:55:43.320 --> 00:55:46.840
decades ago, the therapists who are still around I used
885
00:55:46.840 --> 00:55:51.280
to work with it above ground then said they felt
886
00:55:51.320 --> 00:55:54.840
like the most amazing therapist when they would just give
887
00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:57.559
the medicine, sit there and hold space and watch the
888
00:55:57.719 --> 00:56:03.480
magic unfold where people can take down the walls, you know,
889
00:56:03.800 --> 00:56:08.639
see through new kind of more loving eyes, cultivate a
890
00:56:08.719 --> 00:56:12.760
sense of trust, and move towards each other. What happens
891
00:56:12.800 --> 00:56:17.880
after that, after one session, can completely change the course
892
00:56:17.920 --> 00:56:22.400
of someone's life. Partnership, family life.
893
00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:25.199
Is that something that's available for couples now.
894
00:56:25.800 --> 00:56:32.000
It is, unfortunately not yet. The way these things go
895
00:56:32.360 --> 00:56:36.320
is it's studied in individuals adults first, Like look at
896
00:56:36.400 --> 00:56:40.880
MDMA for example, one of the most powerful medicines, I mean,
897
00:56:40.960 --> 00:56:44.480
the most powerful medicine I've seen ever for PTSD and
898
00:56:44.800 --> 00:56:50.519
likely to be the first psychedelic approved. There was one
899
00:56:50.599 --> 00:56:55.000
study done of couples in Canada where one in the
900
00:56:55.000 --> 00:56:57.559
partnership had severe PTSD and the other did not, but
901
00:56:57.639 --> 00:57:01.199
still got medicine, And there's a really positive study. But
902
00:57:01.679 --> 00:57:04.880
first the approval will come for adults. It'll be studied
903
00:57:04.920 --> 00:57:11.159
in like laid adolescents after that, and then looking at
904
00:57:11.360 --> 00:57:14.880
other ways of delivering the medicine, like we'll be doing
905
00:57:15.119 --> 00:57:20.239
probably next year a group MDMA study here for gender
906
00:57:20.280 --> 00:57:27.679
minority trauma. Individuals who have experienced a lot of trauma
907
00:57:29.199 --> 00:57:34.880
from who are within the LGBT community and really could
908
00:57:35.039 --> 00:57:40.719
use that container with other people who can relate and
909
00:57:40.800 --> 00:57:45.920
facilitators who are really working with them as their whole,
910
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:52.840
unique individuals to support and honor the healing process. And
911
00:57:52.920 --> 00:57:57.320
that's another one I'm looking forward to. We've done We've
912
00:57:57.320 --> 00:58:00.719
done a project recently giving ketamine and group settings to
913
00:58:00.880 --> 00:58:04.320
healthcare workers with trauma working in the pandemic. That was
914
00:58:04.360 --> 00:58:05.599
super powerful as well.
915
00:58:05.840 --> 00:58:09.440
Oh wow, well, I you know, the the amount of
916
00:58:09.480 --> 00:58:12.840
suicide that's going on right now, it's just people stuck
917
00:58:12.920 --> 00:58:16.039
in their minds in old thinking and old old patterns
918
00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:20.480
and the importance of something like this to come out.
919
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:21.880
I love to hear that.
920
00:58:22.119 --> 00:58:26.000
You know, there's collaboration with the DEA. Yeah, that's that's
921
00:58:26.039 --> 00:58:28.719
amazing that that that kind of thing, the government, the DA.
922
00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:33.519
I think hopefully those in the religious world will start
923
00:58:33.559 --> 00:58:35.480
to get on board a little bit more with this,
924
00:58:36.079 --> 00:58:38.760
that we can't hold it in this dark place when
925
00:58:38.960 --> 00:58:41.960
it's bringing truly bringing light into people's lives.
926
00:58:42.519 --> 00:58:48.599
I've heard of even bishops in Utah referring clients who
927
00:58:48.599 --> 00:58:52.760
are really struggling with in the LDS church. In the
928
00:58:52.880 --> 00:59:00.039
LDS Church referring or giving a member of their war
929
00:59:00.800 --> 00:59:05.360
in the church permission to go seek a psychedelic medicine
930
00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:10.079
session for their healing process, which I found I found
931
00:59:10.880 --> 00:59:12.800
like a positive sign. Absolutely.
932
00:59:13.199 --> 00:59:15.039
That's awesome of the.
933
00:59:14.960 --> 00:59:20.920
World opening up to it, both even inside traditional religions.
934
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:23.679
Yeah, that's that's great to hear in Utah. You know,
935
00:59:23.719 --> 00:59:27.159
that's the prevalent belief system that we have here, so
936
00:59:27.239 --> 00:59:28.880
that's the one that we get to experience. But I'm
937
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:31.199
sure that that's happening all around the country.
938
00:59:31.880 --> 00:59:35.840
Yeah. There was even a Mormon bishop who went and
939
00:59:35.880 --> 00:59:39.639
did iawuascat rhythmia and recently talked about it on a
940
00:59:39.760 --> 00:59:44.800
Utah podcast that's been widely circulated. That was really neat.
941
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:49.119
Yeah, well, tell us a little bit about how people
942
00:59:49.159 --> 00:59:54.079
can stay in touch with you. You've got an Instagram channel,
943
00:59:54.119 --> 00:59:56.599
a podcast, and what else to give us some of
944
00:59:56.599 --> 00:59:58.320
that detail, so that that's out there.
945
00:59:58.599 --> 01:00:04.920
Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at at innerspace.
946
01:00:04.320 --> 01:00:07.760
Doctor uh inner space doctor, Yeah.
947
01:00:07.480 --> 01:00:11.639
Or read Robison dot com has it all listed. I
948
01:00:11.760 --> 01:00:17.960
work for Numinous and you am i am us dot
949
01:00:18.000 --> 01:00:19.159
com if I'm spelling it.
950
01:00:19.159 --> 01:00:22.159
Right, and read is ri i D So that's a
951
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:23.119
little different as well.
952
01:00:23.239 --> 01:00:27.719
Read and our podcast at work that I do with
953
01:00:28.159 --> 01:00:31.719
colleague and friend Steve Thayer. He's a psychologist is called
954
01:00:31.800 --> 01:00:36.559
Psychedelic Therapy frontiers dot com, and we talk about these
955
01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:42.480
things freely and openly and sometimes with guests, just about
956
01:00:42.719 --> 01:00:45.000
all things psychedelic and mental health.
957
01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:46.400
Oh that's great, I.
958
01:00:46.360 --> 01:00:49.960
Mean, and you said that if you're willing to show this,
959
01:00:50.039 --> 01:00:52.920
someone actually reported you to the authorities, and the authorities
960
01:00:52.920 --> 01:00:54.920
were on board and said, let's just keep doing.
961
01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.159
Yeah. I had my first ever complaint called in too.
962
01:01:00.800 --> 01:01:03.679
You know, as a physician, I'm licensed by the state.
963
01:01:04.440 --> 01:01:07.880
It's called doppele in Utah, and someone called in saying
964
01:01:09.519 --> 01:01:13.960
this person is talking about illegal drugs on a podcast,
965
01:01:14.480 --> 01:01:16.400
and so I got a call and at first I
966
01:01:16.480 --> 01:01:20.079
was like, oh, what is going on? But then I
967
01:01:20.119 --> 01:01:24.679
get on with this representative from the state who just
968
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:30.679
checked in on those things and was completely understanding about Oh, yeah,
969
01:01:30.920 --> 01:01:34.400
that person is just misunderstanding what the work you're doing
970
01:01:35.280 --> 01:01:38.880
with these medicines in an above board way, going through
971
01:01:38.880 --> 01:01:42.320
the right process to be able to give them legally.
972
01:01:42.719 --> 01:01:47.440
And they dismissed it all swiftly, which I found really
973
01:01:47.559 --> 01:01:48.519
encouraging as well.
974
01:01:48.639 --> 01:01:51.519
It really is because we're in a pretty conservative place
975
01:01:52.039 --> 01:01:54.440
and to know that's that's the way that's going is
976
01:01:55.039 --> 01:01:55.760
that's good news.
977
01:01:55.880 --> 01:02:00.960
Yeah, because I am doing this because I've being just
978
01:02:01.079 --> 01:02:05.440
first hand time and time again with my clients, the
979
01:02:05.519 --> 01:02:10.679
suffering that's out there, the the struggle that we all
980
01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:17.480
have in so many different ways in our mental health individually, collectively.
981
01:02:18.159 --> 01:02:22.519
And you know, I do, I do see the potential
982
01:02:22.599 --> 01:02:27.599
of these medicines for a number of people as ways
983
01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:33.320
to either accelerate the healing journey and or open up
984
01:02:33.360 --> 01:02:37.039
a door to really doing that work in a new way.
985
01:02:37.280 --> 01:02:38.079
That's so exciting.
986
01:02:38.159 --> 01:02:41.880
I mean, so with that, what do you read Robinson
987
01:02:42.000 --> 01:02:45.239
had the ability to waive a magic wand for the future,
988
01:02:45.760 --> 01:02:49.679
what would that future look like in three years, two years,
989
01:02:49.719 --> 01:02:52.840
five years, What what is your greatest hope to see
990
01:02:52.880 --> 01:02:54.159
come about for humanity?
991
01:02:55.079 --> 01:02:58.199
You know, it's uh, it takes a lot of patience
992
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:02.719
and cause me a lot of heartache to be honest,
993
01:03:02.840 --> 01:03:07.400
how long it is taking to bring these medicines into
994
01:03:07.440 --> 01:03:12.039
a place where we can give them legally. And if
995
01:03:12.079 --> 01:03:15.400
I could speed that up in any way, I would like.
996
01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:18.880
I know Oregon, for example, is working on another, like
997
01:03:18.960 --> 01:03:22.840
another way of opening access to psilocybin therapy through state
998
01:03:22.960 --> 01:03:27.480
legislation in Utah. There's a task force exploring it a
999
01:03:27.480 --> 01:03:30.239
lot of other places are working on that. But if
1000
01:03:30.239 --> 01:03:37.480
I could give psilocybin MDMA, DMT in clinic with therapy
1001
01:03:38.039 --> 01:03:42.679
for some really important conditions where so many people are
1002
01:03:42.679 --> 01:03:48.360
suffering and sometimes lives are being lost, I would love
1003
01:03:48.400 --> 01:03:51.159
to be able to do that sooner rather than later.
1004
01:03:51.320 --> 01:03:53.360
Yeah, well that would be great.
1005
01:03:53.559 --> 01:03:57.000
We talk about this together all the time. That's coming.
1006
01:03:57.079 --> 01:04:00.880
We don't know when you know the timing, but I
1007
01:04:00.920 --> 01:04:03.639
think that the trains on the rails and it's moving
1008
01:04:03.719 --> 01:04:06.199
down and it might be going slow right now, but
1009
01:04:06.239 --> 01:04:09.639
I think the results speak for themselves and there's not
1010
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:11.400
going to be any way for us to be able
1011
01:04:11.440 --> 01:04:12.960
to stop that train.
1012
01:04:13.639 --> 01:04:16.239
Yeah, the train has left the station and it's it
1013
01:04:16.360 --> 01:04:18.400
is really a cause for hope.
1014
01:04:18.639 --> 01:04:22.360
Yeah, I agree. Anything else that you'd like to share
1015
01:04:22.400 --> 01:04:25.280
with us in partying, We sure appreciate you being here.
1016
01:04:28.599 --> 01:04:31.199
The more I try to prevent it, does this happening?
1017
01:04:32.239 --> 01:04:36.760
No, I just say thank you for yeah, what what
1018
01:04:36.800 --> 01:04:42.280
you're doing in this community and this renaissance to really
1019
01:04:42.360 --> 01:04:47.639
take this uh, this perspective, the stance of loving awareness
1020
01:04:47.679 --> 01:04:51.920
and seeing it for what it is and opening the conversation.
1021
01:04:52.039 --> 01:04:54.159
It's really been touching to see.
1022
01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:56.960
Yeah, I think it's so important that we all step
1023
01:04:57.000 --> 01:05:00.320
into a place where we become more sovereign about ourselves,
1024
01:05:00.679 --> 01:05:02.400
you know, and about our own wellness.
1025
01:05:03.000 --> 01:05:03.199
Yeah.
1026
01:05:03.360 --> 01:05:06.119
And as we've worked and we've worked with a lot
1027
01:05:06.159 --> 01:05:12.480
of people, it's about understanding that you are your own curriculum.
1028
01:05:12.800 --> 01:05:16.079
You know, you are what you need to kind of understand,
1029
01:05:16.519 --> 01:05:20.159
and that self awareness journey that really helps you start
1030
01:05:20.239 --> 01:05:24.719
to heal yourself from the experiences you've had, the thoughts
1031
01:05:24.760 --> 01:05:29.039
that you've created as your reality, and become more sovereign
1032
01:05:29.079 --> 01:05:31.639
as a human walking the earth in a more loving way,
1033
01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:33.400
first to yourself and then to others.
1034
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:34.480
I love that.
1035
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:37.239
Yeah, And you know, we don't we don't want to
1036
01:05:37.280 --> 01:05:39.239
stand up on a soapbox and say this is the
1037
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:43.679
answer for everyone. And as I mentioned before, but we've
1038
01:05:43.760 --> 01:05:49.480
seen friends and family transform their lives through this and
1039
01:05:49.599 --> 01:05:52.320
we've been able to see that firsthand. And that's the
1040
01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:55.760
reason we're such advocates for it. You know, we've been
1041
01:05:55.800 --> 01:05:58.760
to the jungle, as they say, and you've been to
1042
01:05:58.800 --> 01:06:03.639
the jungle, and when that happened, our perspective shifted. So
1043
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:08.280
many things shifted, and it's not something that we really
1044
01:06:08.320 --> 01:06:12.960
feel drawn to even doing right now. But the experience
1045
01:06:13.000 --> 01:06:16.440
that we had continues to unfold. I call it again
1046
01:06:17.039 --> 01:06:20.760
some of my weird sayings, the infinite onion just continues
1047
01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:24.360
to unpeel and over and over, and the learning never ends.
1048
01:06:24.400 --> 01:06:28.320
It's just continual. We never arrive at an understanding of
1049
01:06:28.559 --> 01:06:31.800
what the hell we're doing here. It's an ever, ever
1050
01:06:32.320 --> 01:06:33.679
unfolding pattern.
1051
01:06:33.320 --> 01:06:36.760
Of life of peeling away layers, feeling away the layers, right.
1052
01:06:36.840 --> 01:06:37.239
I like it.
1053
01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:39.920
As Scot often asks people, who do you think the
1054
01:06:39.960 --> 01:06:42.800
hardest person is to know? And it's always yourself.
1055
01:06:42.800 --> 01:06:45.920
It's always yourself. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for
1056
01:06:46.000 --> 01:06:50.320
being our first guest to really dive into this. We
1057
01:06:50.360 --> 01:06:53.119
appreciate you being here and being so open. This is
1058
01:06:54.079 --> 01:06:56.760
riceless information for people to have out there and can
1059
01:06:56.800 --> 01:06:58.400
really be transformative for people.
1060
01:06:58.960 --> 01:07:01.400
And I encourage people to find you and see the
1061
01:07:01.440 --> 01:07:04.239
studies that you're doing and pay attention to the things
1062
01:07:04.239 --> 01:07:07.360
that are moving and changing. It's an exciting time to
1063
01:07:07.400 --> 01:07:08.519
be in the work that you're doing.
1064
01:07:08.679 --> 01:07:11.440
It is it is, it's an honor to talk about
1065
01:07:11.480 --> 01:07:13.280
it with you. Thanks for having me great.
1066
01:07:13.360 --> 01:07:14.039
Thanks again. Read.
1067
01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:20.400
If you're enjoying the Observatory podcast, please consider subscribing, sharing
1068
01:07:20.480 --> 01:07:23.559
us and if you have time to write a review
1069
01:07:23.599 --> 01:07:25.960
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1070
01:07:25.960 --> 01:07:29.119
you in some way, please do so. That helps us
1071
01:07:29.159 --> 01:07:31.519
to get the word out and get this information out
1072
01:07:31.559 --> 01:07:33.840
to more and more people so that it can be
1073
01:07:33.880 --> 01:07:37.840
shared and we can help ripple out this energy that's
1074
01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:41.159
emanating in the world today. There's been so much separation
1075
01:07:41.280 --> 01:07:44.119
and we want to find a way to create conversations
1076
01:07:44.159 --> 01:07:48.000
where we can come together, not divide so much as
1077
01:07:48.039 --> 01:07:51.239
we have been to learn to come together in unity.
1078
01:07:51.880 --> 01:07:58.719
Thank you you've been listening to the Observatory podcast.
1079
01:07:59.119 --> 01:08:02.360
Please be sure to subscribe so you don't miss any
1080
01:08:02.519 --> 01:08:04.079
of our future episodes.