WEBVTT
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This message comes from the Center for U.S. Voters Abroad Foundation.
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All U.S.
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Citizens abroad may request an absentee ballot to vote in
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the 2026 election. Visit registerabroad.com to get started.
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It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith, and we're
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here with a special Saturday episode for you because we wanted.
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To share something cool and new.
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It's an episode of this brand new NPR podcast hosted
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by our old friend Scott Detrow called Trump's Trials.
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That's right. Trump's Trials.
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Just what it sounds like. The show is a weekly
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catch up on the biggest courtroom drama, testimony and legal
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maneuvering in the legal cases facing former President Donald Trump.
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And yes, we will still be talking about all those
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cases here on the politics podcast. But on Trump's Trials,
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it's all they will talk about with all the gritty details.
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By they, we mean Scott, joined each week by your
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friend and mine, NPR editor Domenico Montanaro. But do not worry,
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Domenico will still be with us on this show, too.
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So here they are, Scott and Domenico, with their first
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episode of Trump's Trials from NPR.
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From NPR, this is Trump's Trials. I'm Scott Detrow. This
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is a persecution. Felony violations for national security laws. We
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need one more indictment.
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Criminal conspiracy.
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To close out this election. He actually just stormed out
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of the corner. Innocent until proven guilty in a court
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of law. Once a week, we talk through the latest
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developments in the multiple legal cases former President Donald Trump
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is facing. There are four criminal cases, of course, two
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of them tied to his alleged attempts to overturn the
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2020 presidential election. Another one focuses on those classified documents
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that ended up stacked in a bathroom in Mar-a-Lago, among
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other places. And the fourth, that's the case over hush
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money payments to Stormy Daniels. But this week, we are
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focused on Trump's New York civil fraud case. The judge
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in the case has already ruled the Trump organization committed
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fraud for years, inflating the value of its properties. And
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Donald Trump took the stand this week. What's at stake
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in the case? The Trump Organization's ability to carry on
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doing business in New York is on the line. There's
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also a chance of Trump being slapped with a $ 250
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million fine. And this week, the former president himself, as
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well as his daughter, Ivanka Trump, testified in the trial.
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So that's the news this week. But first, I'm just
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going to take a moment to tell you what we're
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trying to do in this podcast. Each week, we're going
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to be joined by a legal expert to help us
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break down what happened and what matters. And we'll do
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that in just a moment. But first, also with me
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every week, will be NPR senior editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Hey, Domenico.
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Hey, Scott.
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Imagine you and me doing a podcast together. I know.
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Feels like long primary night hours.
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So now we're going to be talking about courtroom stuff
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each week. And let's start how we're going to start
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each episode. What happened this week in about one minute
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or so? What do people need to know? Well, it's
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pretty obvious.
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Donald Trump had to take the stand where he was
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forced to defend himself and the company that he made
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and that made him. And the Trump that we got
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on the stand was the Trump we're used to seeing.
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Which was an open question because at times in the
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past when he's been deposed in other legal settings, he
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has acted different. But he didn't hear he was campaign Trump.
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Right.
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He was combative. He was defensive and not necessarily truthful.
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I mean, even on the stand, when asked about the
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square footage of his Trump Tower apartment, he couldn't give
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a straight answer. I mean, bottom line is, Trump used
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his time on the witness stand to lean into this
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narrative that this case and others are part of a
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larger witch hunt. That's something we've been hearing from him
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since these investigations started. And Ivanka Trump, his daughter, she
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sounded a whole lot like her brothers, claiming that she
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wasn't involved in the financial statements in question, despite the
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fact that she herself was a former high-ranking executive at
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the company before leaving to work at the White House
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in 2017.
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A lot to get into, and we will do just
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that in a moment.
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This message comes from HomeServe.
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This is Ira Glass.
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On This American Life, we tell stories about when things change.
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Like for this guy, David, whose entire life took a sharp, unexpected,
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and very unpleasant turn.
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And it did take me a while to realize it's
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basically because the monkey pressed the button.
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That's right.
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Because the monkey pressed the button. Surprising stories every week,
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wherever you get your podcasts.
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I haven't seen my son since 2012.
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This is Deborah Tice.
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The disappearance of her son, Austin, is one of the
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biggest missing person cases in the world.
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What do you want from me? I should solve the mystery.
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I know that my son is somewhere alive.
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Listen to Where Is Austin Tice? from NPR's Embedded and
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BBC Radio 4 on the NPR app or wherever you
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get your podcasts.
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It's Trump's Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow, and I
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am joined by my colleague, Domenico Montanaro, as well as
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Melissa Murray, a lawyer and professor at NYU's School of Law.
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She's the co-author of the upcoming book, The Trump Indictments.
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Thanks for being here, Melissa.
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Thanks for having me.
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So, Domenico, a lot on the line for the Trumps
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in this trial, right? A quarter of a billion dollar fine,
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the ability to do business in New York State, the
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symbolic value of properties like Trump Tower. And again, this
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is worth repeating at the beginning of this conversation, the
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determination here is coming from the judge. not a jury.
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So this testimony matters for Donald Trump. He takes the stand.
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What do we learn?
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Well, what was surprising to me is just how much
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he contradicted his sons. His sons really sort of took
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this hands-off approach and said, I wasn't really involved in
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these valuations. I don't remember these emails. You know, yeah,
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I was on them, but I had other things to do.
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I don't really know what you're talking about with all
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of this stuff. Donald Trump Sr. was very much the opposite.
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He was like, I think this property was undervalued and
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that property was undervalued. Showing He really had his hands
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very closely tied to these valuations, which is at the
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core of the fraud case here.
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Right. And Melissa, this is the center of the case.
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And again, the judge has already ruled that these financial
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documents were fraudulent, that they inflated the value of the
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organization way more than its actual value. And he comes
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in and says, no, they were worth more than that.
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I mean, what did you make of that legally?
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Well, it does seem like Donald Trump is playing to
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two different audiences. As Domenico said, the main audience here
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or the proper audience here is the judge who will
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make the decision about what the penalties will be in
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this phase and will determine what punishment Donald Trump will
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have for the fraud that's already been determined. But Donald
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Trump is also playing for an audience outside of this courtroom.
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And there were moments in his testimony where it seemed
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like maybe he wasn't that concerned about winning this New
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York fraud case because he had bigger fish to fry elsewhere.
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And that could be the criminal cases and the criminal
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liability he is facing in four other lawsuits, or it
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could just be his presidential campaign.
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What's a specific moment that made you think maybe he
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doesn't actually care about the outcome of this trial?
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I get like the bombast, like, you know, the The
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square footage of the apartment is a verifiable fact. I mean,
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maybe there's a little bit of tinkering that one could
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do on the edges. Like, do you include this closet?
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Do you not include this closet? But escalating the square
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footage of your apartment from 10,000 to 30,000 seems like
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a bit out of range. And he did not bother
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to rein in any of that. He was like, yeah,
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it's a huge apartment.
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There we are.
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It's kind of what you do with money laundering. But
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it's not– there's obviously not a case about that. But
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it's literally what you would do is just inflate how
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much– at least what I learned from Ozark.
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But he was doing it in real time with the apartment.
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He was saying it was $ 10, 000. No, actually, it's more $ 11, 000. No,
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it's $ 12, 000. No, it's $ 13, 000. Like in real time, he's
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just like growing the number on the stand. Yeah.
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Well, that's what he did with his net worth when
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he ran for president the first time. I mean $ 2 billion.
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Why not $ 5 billion?
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Why not $ 10 billion?
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Right?
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Right.
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I mean, how do you how do you value a
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brand like Trump's?
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Right.
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And this was all about that branding. But Melissa's 100
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percent right. You can't just make up square footage unless
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you change like the measuring stick.
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Right.
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And obviously he wishes he could do that, but he can't.
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And I think that it's still a big apartment. It's
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a huge apartment. It's huge, as he would say.
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It's a New York apartment.
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It's worth a lot of money. The fact, though, is
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his team has always had these tactics in law cases
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to delay. Number one, he tried to delay this case.
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Tried to get it thrown out.
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Didn't work.
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So this time, maybe Melissa's right. He doesn't care if
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he wins or loses this thing because he knows the
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real audience is politics and he's got to keep his
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base in line. And that's why he was so combative
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and why he was making the speeches he was making
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from the stand, which is atypical, really, of what we've
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seen from Trump in previous depositions where he's much more sober.
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Right.
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To be clear, Domenico, there was a moment where he
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did seem to dial it back in because his lawyers
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did ask the judge for a directed verdict, which is
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to say to basically override his earlier verdict, finding fraud
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and grant a win to Donald Trump. So, I mean,
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at least the lawyers seem interested in winning this case
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or a more favorable outcome than what is likely to happen.
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But you're right. They had a very recalcitrant client on
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the stand.
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There was one specific defense that Trump kept coming back to,
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you know, at one point, pulling out this piece of paper,
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waving it around. He said this gave the financial statements
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legal cover for possible inflated value. This was the idea
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of the disclaimer in the document. Can you explain to
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us why this matters and what the judge's response was?
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Sure. So again, I think we are seeing glimpses of
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what the defense is going to do when it begins
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to present its case next week. But this disclaimer is
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the sort of, you know, at the end of these statements, like, yeah,
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you know, maybe this is not entirely accurate. Like, Here
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are the numbers, but there's room for disagreement. These are subjective.
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And that's going to be, I think, the crux of
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the defense. Valuation, especially in real estate, is necessarily subjective.
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It is particularly subjective, I think they will argue, in
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the context of this family, where so much of their
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alleged worth is tied up in the family brand and
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is not necessarily subject to the kinds of traditional valuations
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that that you might see for real estate enterprises that
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don't necessarily have an outlet on television or reality TV,
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for example. So I think that's a big part of
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what's going on here. And I think separately, another thing
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that we're going to see, and the disclaimer is related
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to that, is nobody was hurt here. The banks made money.
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Donald Trump made money. No one was deprived of anything
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in the manner of a traditional fraud situation.
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What's the state's argument? Who was hurt here?
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Well, the state seems to be making a very populist argument,
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which is we're all hurt when Donald Trump cheats like this.
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Like we're ordinary stiffs who go to get a mortgage
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and we don't inflate the value of our net worth.
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We don't inflate the valuations of our existing assets. We
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have to play by the rules. And here's this guy
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who never plays by the rules.
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Well, politically, Trump would say, that makes me smart, right?
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I mean, that's how he talked about his taxes in
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one of the debates in 2016. And I think that
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in this case, he would say the same thing. But
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when it's revealed in court, it stands a little bit differently,
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especially when the state is really threatening your entire business.
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Well, I think that's right. And I also think it
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stands in stark contrast to his very populist message to
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his base, like you're all being overrun, you're losing ground.
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And he sort of put himself in with those individuals
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who believe that they've lost ground. But Letitia James is
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putting out there that it's not merely aspirational. He's the
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guy that's cutting into your bottom line.
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One other thing to ask about in that New York
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courtroom this week, Melissa, that's the fact that Ivanka Trump testified.
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She was the last witness called by the attorney general's office.
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She has, of course, been the Trump child most closely
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tied to him over the years. She's the one who
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had an office in the White House. She has been
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a high-profile figure in Trump's orbit. What do we need
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to know about her testimony?
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Well, I think if you were expecting the kind of
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bombast and outbursts that you saw with Donald Trump and
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the recalcitrance that you saw in the two Trump brothers—
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You didn't get that with Ivanka Trump. She was much
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more controlled. I believe the attorney general referred to her
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as cordial. And I think that's exactly right. She seemed
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to be a very willing witness, although not one that
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could recall the particularities of some of the business deals
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with which she apparently was very closely associated with.
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I want to end the conversation like we do each
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week with one big takeaway, the most important thing that
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you think happened in the courtroom outside of the courtroom
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this week. Domenico, I'll start with you. Well, I mean,
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the fact that.
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Ivanka Trump here is continuing to sort of distance herself,
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you know, she's not on trial in the same way
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that her father and her brothers are. You know, her
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apartment was shown to be valued at a higher rate
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by her father, by the company's financial statements than she
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says she even knew about. And I think we're continuing
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to see this sort of distancing that Ivanka Trump has
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done from her dad, where in 2015, 2016, she looked
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like the real heir apparent to all things Trump. And
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now she looks like she's just sort of running her
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own side game with her husband, Jared Kushner, who was
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also on a lot of these emails, by the way,
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having some intimate involvement with how the Trump company was
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being run, even though he wasn't employed by it.
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Melissa, what's your big takeaway from the week?
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Well, this also relates to Ivanka, but at one point
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in time, the lawyers tried to limit some of the
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testimony on the ground that she was being asked questions
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about her conversations with her husband, Jared Kushner, and the
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lawyers tried to say that this was barred by spousal privilege.
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And the judge, after taking a moment to think about this,
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came back to the bench and said, no, they were
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both emailing each other from work email accounts, which make
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this work matters, not necessarily spousal pillow talk. And so
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just my legal tip to husbands, wives, partners, do not
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email each other from work accounts if you want to
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keep this away from the court and out of evidence.
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Don't lawyers always say never write anything down, right?
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Never write anything down, but definitely don't email your spouse
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from your work account.
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Yeah.
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Now the Trump team kind of gets its turn now, right?
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They kind of get the chance to go back. And
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I guess we're going to see how quickly this judge
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winds up ruling on this case.
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I guess I've got more of a big picture takeaway
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from this week. And it just gets back to the
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fact that this is such a strange parallel universe right
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now where the stakes for Donald Trump at the moment
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are enormous, right? We're talking about criminal charges that could
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land him in jail. We're talking about this civil case
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that could take away his business empire. And yet it
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seems like it almost doesn't matter in the way that
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he thinks about it and acts about it and the
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way that he continues to be in front in the polls.
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And we saw in hypothetical matchups of the presidential election
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a year from now ahead of the polls in some places.
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It's just a very strange moment. I'm not sure how
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it settles.
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Yeah, well, it's been more than a decade since Teflon
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00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:51.340
was found to be toxic, but it's still with Donald Trump.
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And things seem to be sliding off of him when
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it comes to his base.
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That is senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Thanks, Domenico.
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You're welcome. And Melissa Murray, a lawyer and professor at
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NYU School of Law. Thanks, Melissa.
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Thank you.
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00:16:04.259 --> 00:16:06.759
And we will be back next week with another episode
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of Trump's Trials. Be sure to follow more of NPR's
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political coverage from Domenico and the rest of the NPR
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politics team. Daily weekday episodes of the NPR politics podcast.
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And thanks to our supporters who hear the show sponsor free.
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If that's not you, it could be. Sign up at plus.npr.org
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00:16:23.429 --> 00:16:26.649
or subscribe on our show page in Apple Podcasts. The
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00:16:26.669 --> 00:16:29.110
show is produced by Tyler Bartlam and edited by Adam
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00:16:29.169 --> 00:16:31.669
Rainey as well as Steve Drummond. Our technical director is
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Kwesi Lee. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's
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00:16:35.500 --> 00:16:36.539
Trials from NPR.
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00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:48.799
How do products end up on big box shelves? Well,
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00:16:49.210 --> 00:16:52.669
We at Planet Money pitch the Planet Money board game.
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I'm trying not to think how much of a big
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00:16:55.129 --> 00:16:57.039
deal it is and how much work has gone into it.
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00:16:57.120 --> 00:16:59.080
It's really big. Is it helpful if I remind you
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how big it is? It's sort of the whole thing.
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We go inside the minds of the people who decide
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what goes on store shelves. Listen to Planet Money on
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the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.
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This message comes from the Center for U.S. Voters Abroad Foundation.
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All U.S.
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Citizens abroad may request an absentee ballot to vote in
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the 2026 election. Visit registerabroad.com to get started.
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It's the NPR Politics Podcast. I'm Tamara Keith, and we're
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00:00:20.589 --> 00:00:24.149
here with a special Saturday episode for you because we wanted.
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00:00:23.929 --> 00:00:25.429
To share something cool and new.
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00:00:26.149 --> 00:00:29.850
It's an episode of this brand new NPR podcast hosted
9
00:00:29.910 --> 00:00:33.509
by our old friend Scott Detrow called Trump's Trials.
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That's right. Trump's Trials.
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00:00:35.850 --> 00:00:38.109
Just what it sounds like. The show is a weekly
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00:00:38.170 --> 00:00:41.929
catch up on the biggest courtroom drama, testimony and legal
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maneuvering in the legal cases facing former President Donald Trump.
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And yes, we will still be talking about all those
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00:00:48.090 --> 00:00:51.759
cases here on the politics podcast. But on Trump's Trials,
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00:00:52.020 --> 00:00:55.799
it's all they will talk about with all the gritty details.
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By they, we mean Scott, joined each week by your
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00:00:59.350 --> 00:01:03.289
friend and mine, NPR editor Domenico Montanaro. But do not worry,
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00:01:03.649 --> 00:01:06.049
Domenico will still be with us on this show, too.
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So here they are, Scott and Domenico, with their first
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00:01:08.909 --> 00:01:11.640
episode of Trump's Trials from NPR.
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From NPR, this is Trump's Trials. I'm Scott Detrow. This
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is a persecution. Felony violations for national security laws. We
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need one more indictment.
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Criminal conspiracy.
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To close out this election. He actually just stormed out
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of the corner. Innocent until proven guilty in a court
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of law. Once a week, we talk through the latest
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developments in the multiple legal cases former President Donald Trump
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is facing. There are four criminal cases, of course, two
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of them tied to his alleged attempts to overturn the
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2020 presidential election. Another one focuses on those classified documents
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that ended up stacked in a bathroom in Mar-a-Lago, among
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other places. And the fourth, that's the case over hush
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money payments to Stormy Daniels. But this week, we are
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focused on Trump's New York civil fraud case. The judge
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in the case has already ruled the Trump organization committed
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fraud for years, inflating the value of its properties. And
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Donald Trump took the stand this week. What's at stake
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in the case? The Trump Organization's ability to carry on
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doing business in New York is on the line. There's
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also a chance of Trump being slapped with a $ 250
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million fine. And this week, the former president himself, as
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well as his daughter, Ivanka Trump, testified in the trial.
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So that's the news this week. But first, I'm just
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going to take a moment to tell you what we're
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trying to do in this podcast. Each week, we're going
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to be joined by a legal expert to help us
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break down what happened and what matters. And we'll do
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that in just a moment. But first, also with me
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every week, will be NPR senior editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Hey, Domenico.
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Hey, Scott.
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Imagine you and me doing a podcast together. I know.
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Feels like long primary night hours.
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So now we're going to be talking about courtroom stuff
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each week. And let's start how we're going to start
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each episode. What happened this week in about one minute
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or so? What do people need to know? Well, it's
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pretty obvious.
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Donald Trump had to take the stand where he was
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forced to defend himself and the company that he made
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and that made him. And the Trump that we got
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on the stand was the Trump we're used to seeing.
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Which was an open question because at times in the
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past when he's been deposed in other legal settings, he
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has acted different. But he didn't hear he was campaign Trump.
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Right.
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He was combative. He was defensive and not necessarily truthful.
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I mean, even on the stand, when asked about the
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square footage of his Trump Tower apartment, he couldn't give
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a straight answer. I mean, bottom line is, Trump used
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his time on the witness stand to lean into this
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narrative that this case and others are part of a
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larger witch hunt. That's something we've been hearing from him
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since these investigations started. And Ivanka Trump, his daughter, she
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sounded a whole lot like her brothers, claiming that she
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wasn't involved in the financial statements in question, despite the
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fact that she herself was a former high-ranking executive at
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the company before leaving to work at the White House
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in 2017.
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A lot to get into, and we will do just
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that in a moment.
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This is Ira Glass.
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On This American Life, we tell stories about when things change.
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Like for this guy, David, whose entire life took a sharp, unexpected,
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and very unpleasant turn.
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And it did take me a while to realize it's
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basically because the monkey pressed the button.
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That's right.
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Because the monkey pressed the button. Surprising stories every week,
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wherever you get your podcasts.
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I haven't seen my son since 2012.
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This is Deborah Tice.
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The disappearance of her son, Austin, is one of the
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biggest missing person cases in the world.
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What do you want from me? I should solve the mystery.
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I know that my son is somewhere alive.
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Listen to Where Is Austin Tice? from NPR's Embedded and
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BBC Radio 4 on the NPR app or wherever you
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get your podcasts.
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It's Trump's Trials from NPR. I'm Scott Detrow, and I
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am joined by my colleague, Domenico Montanaro, as well as
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Melissa Murray, a lawyer and professor at NYU's School of Law.
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She's the co-author of the upcoming book, The Trump Indictments.
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Thanks for being here, Melissa.
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Thanks for having me.
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So, Domenico, a lot on the line for the Trumps
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in this trial, right? A quarter of a billion dollar fine,
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the ability to do business in New York State, the
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symbolic value of properties like Trump Tower. And again, this
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is worth repeating at the beginning of this conversation, the
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determination here is coming from the judge. not a jury.
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So this testimony matters for Donald Trump. He takes the stand.
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What do we learn?
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Well, what was surprising to me is just how much
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he contradicted his sons. His sons really sort of took
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this hands-off approach and said, I wasn't really involved in
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these valuations. I don't remember these emails. You know, yeah,
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I was on them, but I had other things to do.
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I don't really know what you're talking about with all
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of this stuff. Donald Trump Sr. was very much the opposite.
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He was like, I think this property was undervalued and
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that property was undervalued. Showing He really had his hands
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very closely tied to these valuations, which is at the
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core of the fraud case here.
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Right. And Melissa, this is the center of the case.
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And again, the judge has already ruled that these financial
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documents were fraudulent, that they inflated the value of the
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organization way more than its actual value. And he comes
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in and says, no, they were worth more than that.
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I mean, what did you make of that legally?
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Well, it does seem like Donald Trump is playing to
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two different audiences. As Domenico said, the main audience here
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or the proper audience here is the judge who will
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make the decision about what the penalties will be in
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this phase and will determine what punishment Donald Trump will
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have for the fraud that's already been determined. But Donald
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Trump is also playing for an audience outside of this courtroom.
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And there were moments in his testimony where it seemed
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like maybe he wasn't that concerned about winning this New
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York fraud case because he had bigger fish to fry elsewhere.
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And that could be the criminal cases and the criminal
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liability he is facing in four other lawsuits, or it
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could just be his presidential campaign.
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What's a specific moment that made you think maybe he
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doesn't actually care about the outcome of this trial?
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I get like the bombast, like, you know, the The
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square footage of the apartment is a verifiable fact. I mean,
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maybe there's a little bit of tinkering that one could
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do on the edges. Like, do you include this closet?
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Do you not include this closet? But escalating the square
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footage of your apartment from 10,000 to 30,000 seems like
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a bit out of range. And he did not bother
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to rein in any of that. He was like, yeah,
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it's a huge apartment.
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There we are.
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It's kind of what you do with money laundering. But
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it's not– there's obviously not a case about that. But
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it's literally what you would do is just inflate how
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much– at least what I learned from Ozark.
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But he was doing it in real time with the apartment.
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He was saying it was $ 10, 000. No, actually, it's more $ 11, 000. No,
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it's $ 12, 000. No, it's $ 13, 000. Like in real time, he's
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just like growing the number on the stand. Yeah.
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Well, that's what he did with his net worth when
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he ran for president the first time. I mean $ 2 billion.
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Why not $ 5 billion?
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Why not $ 10 billion?
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Right?
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Right.
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I mean, how do you how do you value a
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brand like Trump's?
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Right.
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And this was all about that branding. But Melissa's 100
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percent right. You can't just make up square footage unless
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you change like the measuring stick.
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Right.
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And obviously he wishes he could do that, but he can't.
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And I think that it's still a big apartment. It's
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a huge apartment. It's huge, as he would say.
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It's a New York apartment.
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It's worth a lot of money. The fact, though, is
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his team has always had these tactics in law cases
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to delay. Number one, he tried to delay this case.
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Tried to get it thrown out.
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Didn't work.
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So this time, maybe Melissa's right. He doesn't care if
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he wins or loses this thing because he knows the
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real audience is politics and he's got to keep his
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base in line. And that's why he was so combative
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and why he was making the speeches he was making
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from the stand, which is atypical, really, of what we've
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seen from Trump in previous depositions where he's much more sober.
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Right.
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To be clear, Domenico, there was a moment where he
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did seem to dial it back in because his lawyers
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did ask the judge for a directed verdict, which is
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to say to basically override his earlier verdict, finding fraud
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and grant a win to Donald Trump. So, I mean,
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at least the lawyers seem interested in winning this case
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or a more favorable outcome than what is likely to happen.
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But you're right. They had a very recalcitrant client on
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the stand.
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There was one specific defense that Trump kept coming back to,
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you know, at one point, pulling out this piece of paper,
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waving it around. He said this gave the financial statements
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legal cover for possible inflated value. This was the idea
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of the disclaimer in the document. Can you explain to
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us why this matters and what the judge's response was?
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Sure. So again, I think we are seeing glimpses of
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what the defense is going to do when it begins
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to present its case next week. But this disclaimer is
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the sort of, you know, at the end of these statements, like, yeah,
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you know, maybe this is not entirely accurate. Like, Here
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are the numbers, but there's room for disagreement. These are subjective.
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And that's going to be, I think, the crux of
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the defense. Valuation, especially in real estate, is necessarily subjective.
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It is particularly subjective, I think they will argue, in
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the context of this family, where so much of their
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alleged worth is tied up in the family brand and
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is not necessarily subject to the kinds of traditional valuations
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that that you might see for real estate enterprises that
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don't necessarily have an outlet on television or reality TV,
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for example. So I think that's a big part of
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what's going on here. And I think separately, another thing
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that we're going to see, and the disclaimer is related
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to that, is nobody was hurt here. The banks made money.
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Donald Trump made money. No one was deprived of anything
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in the manner of a traditional fraud situation.
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What's the state's argument? Who was hurt here?
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Well, the state seems to be making a very populist argument,
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which is we're all hurt when Donald Trump cheats like this.
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Like we're ordinary stiffs who go to get a mortgage
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and we don't inflate the value of our net worth.
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We don't inflate the valuations of our existing assets. We
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have to play by the rules. And here's this guy
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who never plays by the rules.
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Well, politically, Trump would say, that makes me smart, right?
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I mean, that's how he talked about his taxes in
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one of the debates in 2016. And I think that
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in this case, he would say the same thing. But
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when it's revealed in court, it stands a little bit differently,
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especially when the state is really threatening your entire business.
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Well, I think that's right. And I also think it
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stands in stark contrast to his very populist message to
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his base, like you're all being overrun, you're losing ground.
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And he sort of put himself in with those individuals
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who believe that they've lost ground. But Letitia James is
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putting out there that it's not merely aspirational. He's the
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guy that's cutting into your bottom line.
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One other thing to ask about in that New York
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courtroom this week, Melissa, that's the fact that Ivanka Trump testified.
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She was the last witness called by the attorney general's office.
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She has, of course, been the Trump child most closely
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tied to him over the years. She's the one who
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had an office in the White House. She has been
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a high-profile figure in Trump's orbit. What do we need
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to know about her testimony?
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Well, I think if you were expecting the kind of
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bombast and outbursts that you saw with Donald Trump and
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the recalcitrance that you saw in the two Trump brothers—
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You didn't get that with Ivanka Trump. She was much
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more controlled. I believe the attorney general referred to her
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as cordial. And I think that's exactly right. She seemed
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to be a very willing witness, although not one that
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could recall the particularities of some of the business deals
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with which she apparently was very closely associated with.
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I want to end the conversation like we do each
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week with one big takeaway, the most important thing that
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you think happened in the courtroom outside of the courtroom
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this week. Domenico, I'll start with you. Well, I mean,
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the fact that.
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Ivanka Trump here is continuing to sort of distance herself,
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you know, she's not on trial in the same way
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that her father and her brothers are. You know, her
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apartment was shown to be valued at a higher rate
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by her father, by the company's financial statements than she
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says she even knew about. And I think we're continuing
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to see this sort of distancing that Ivanka Trump has
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done from her dad, where in 2015, 2016, she looked
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like the real heir apparent to all things Trump. And
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now she looks like she's just sort of running her
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own side game with her husband, Jared Kushner, who was
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also on a lot of these emails, by the way,
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having some intimate involvement with how the Trump company was
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being run, even though he wasn't employed by it.
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Melissa, what's your big takeaway from the week?
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Well, this also relates to Ivanka, but at one point
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in time, the lawyers tried to limit some of the
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testimony on the ground that she was being asked questions
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about her conversations with her husband, Jared Kushner, and the
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lawyers tried to say that this was barred by spousal privilege.
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And the judge, after taking a moment to think about this,
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came back to the bench and said, no, they were
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both emailing each other from work email accounts, which make
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this work matters, not necessarily spousal pillow talk. And so
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just my legal tip to husbands, wives, partners, do not
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email each other from work accounts if you want to
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keep this away from the court and out of evidence.
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Don't lawyers always say never write anything down, right?
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Never write anything down, but definitely don't email your spouse
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from your work account.
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Yeah.
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Now the Trump team kind of gets its turn now, right?
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They kind of get the chance to go back. And
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I guess we're going to see how quickly this judge
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winds up ruling on this case.
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I guess I've got more of a big picture takeaway
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from this week. And it just gets back to the
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fact that this is such a strange parallel universe right
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now where the stakes for Donald Trump at the moment
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are enormous, right? We're talking about criminal charges that could
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land him in jail. We're talking about this civil case
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that could take away his business empire. And yet it
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seems like it almost doesn't matter in the way that
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he thinks about it and acts about it and the
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way that he continues to be in front in the polls.
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And we saw in hypothetical matchups of the presidential election
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a year from now ahead of the polls in some places.
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It's just a very strange moment. I'm not sure how
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it settles.
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Yeah, well, it's been more than a decade since Teflon
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was found to be toxic, but it's still with Donald Trump.
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And things seem to be sliding off of him when
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it comes to his base.
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That is senior political editor and correspondent Domenico Montanaro. Thanks, Domenico.
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You're welcome. And Melissa Murray, a lawyer and professor at
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NYU School of Law. Thanks, Melissa.
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Thank you.
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And we will be back next week with another episode
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of Trump's Trials. Be sure to follow more of NPR's
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00:16:09.379 --> 00:16:11.960
political coverage from Domenico and the rest of the NPR
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politics team. Daily weekday episodes of the NPR politics podcast.
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And thanks to our supporters who hear the show sponsor free.
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If that's not you, it could be. Sign up at plus.npr.org
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or subscribe on our show page in Apple Podcasts. The
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show is produced by Tyler Bartlam and edited by Adam
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00:16:29.169 --> 00:16:31.669
Rainey as well as Steve Drummond. Our technical director is
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00:16:31.730 --> 00:16:35.460
Kwesi Lee. I'm Scott Detrow. Thanks for listening to Trump's
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Trials from NPR.
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How do products end up on big box shelves? Well,
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We at Planet Money pitch the Planet Money board game.
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I'm trying not to think how much of a big
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deal it is and how much work has gone into it.
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It's really big. Is it helpful if I remind you
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how big it is? It's sort of the whole thing.
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We go inside the minds of the people who decide
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