speaker-0: What up everybody? Welcome back to another episode of the NerdJ Report. I'm your host, Pablo, and joining me as always is Mr. Bryan Schultz. DC Roundup Part 2. And this is gonna be a doozy. Why? Because a lot of things will happen because of this. New Sky Dance merger that has been completed. It is
speaker-1: it's done. It's done. October second. The new Sky Dance. The name is just Sky Dance is here.
speaker-0: arrives and starts making moves, run down, we're gonna you know, talk about the some of the personnel. Gun and Saffron a has been they have been asked to stay and we'll talk about what it all means, especially when you c think about the Luca and Ab the and the stellar year that they had and
speaker-1: Hold that thought. Yeah, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: You know, he said the same thing. They would be retained. So we'll go into some of those comparisons. Bradley Cooper as Duke and G.I. Joe and and a crossover that somehow was mentioned in the meeting. I would be like, get out.
speaker-1: More than mentioned, they showed a scene. Rise of the beast. Rise of the beast. The end of Rise of the Beast is that crossover. you don't remember that?
speaker-0: Nah, I didn't see Rise of the Beast actually. I didn't see Trash Former.
speaker-1: the end the end scene of it is they are in the hangar with the Joes after the fight with the Decepticons. What?
speaker-0: This all me, cause this is gonna be this is gonna be an interesting next six months, Brian. So let's get the details of what's gonna what has transpired. And again, we've talked about this over and over again that this was gonna happen, and it's happened. What is happening?
speaker-1: Yeah, let's try to live it. Well we'll be trying to be very clear about what is fact and what is speculation. So let's start out with DC facts. Because once again, I feel like this story, people are so jumpy about every little headline without stopping to do the research, stopping to really think it through, trying to look at the other clues that are on the board. But the fact James Gunn and Peter Saffron are staying on following the close of the deal. Fact happening. Fact two. They have not signed a new contract extension. They remain under their existing contracts, which extend into next year, past Man of Tomorrow. So fact one is they were not exited from their contract early. They're still there. Fact two is they do not have a long-term new commitment from the new Skydance. Those are both facts. Okay, so you need to be clear that that's both things are true. Fact three, so inside baseball. At the initial meeting that David Ellison had, the town hall. They showed sizzle reels and promotional material to get the workforce pumped up about the new combined entity. They showed a series of logos that are now underneath the new Skydance. The first logo was the Paramount Mountain with the stars. Second logo was the good old WB, Warner Brothers. The third logo was DC Studios. Key because fact number three is DC will not be folded into in existing film department. It will remain its own piece of the kingdom. Fact three. Interesting. So remember, there was a rumor at one point they were going to roll this into like who the movie guys, movie people were just going to run DC with everything else. Not happening. DC and it was in their internal memo. DC Studios was specifically named as its own label. So there will still be a DC studio. Fact four The heads of DC do not report to the heads of film. They report directly to David Ellison and the new co-CEO, who we'll talk about, Enon Krees. So DC formally Report directly to David Zaslow. They still report directly to the CEO. So the film bosses do not run, James Gunn, Peter Saffron, or whoever's running DC. That's fact four. These are confirmed happening, verified. That's what we've got. Fact five, and this is where the plot gets a little interesting. If you want to read into stuff. In the sizzle reel, what was shown and what was not shown. They showed a couple of highlight clips from DCU product, Superman, lanterns. They didn't show anything from Supergirl. They sh did not show anything from the DC EU in the historical look back. They did show a lot from some other guys' work with DC some 20 years ago. Batman Begins, Dark Knight. Dark Knight Rises, Inception, Tenant, all the movies that he made for Warner Brothers before they ran him off, the old regime ran him off the studio a lot. They showed more Christopher Nolan footage in their sizzle reel than they showed of anyone else.
speaker-0: Wow, that's interesting.
speaker-1: I think it's very conspicuous considering he is technically a free agent after the Odyssey. And you could have shown his entire catalog pre tenant or sorry, up through tenant. And they chose to show a lot of Batman is the work. So we know nothing, but the fact is that's a production choice. They could have chosen anything, right? Yeah. A lot of filmmakers there. They chose to show a lot of Chris Nolan and a lot of Chris Nolan Batman. Read into it if you want. Anyway, those are the the basic facts. Fact number six, I mentioned Enon Krees, new CEO to help David Ellison. Who is he? He's run Mattel for the last eight years. Now Mattel happens to have rights to a certain character who's under a deadline to make a sequel, and they're having problems making that sequel. Barbie. yes. So I think they solved their Barbie issue. Speculation. That guy in part got the job because they need to make Barbie two or get going on that by the end of the year and they're at an impasse. So why not bring in the guy who actually oversees the doll to help resolve that? Now, why is Enon Krees a guy? Like what is he known for? Mattel was failing financially eight years ago when he became the CEO. I think you can debate how successful his regime ultimately was, but his reputation is cutting costs Fixing cash flows, getting distressed companies out of distress. So eighty billion dollars of debt load will tell you he's got his work cut out for him. Can make it easy.
speaker-0: Cell D C but
speaker-1: Anyway, so magnets. Alright, I'm gonna pause. I got other facts, but I'm gonna pause there. That's the the lay of the land. Now they have made a couple other changes. That's a separate section. But any re initial reactions to just a couple of things there about that are DC related? The fact that
speaker-0: Is its own separate entity. That's the biggest thing for me is like why not include something that some would say a moneymaker, automatic. Why would they separate it? I don't know. For me, that's an interesting thought of why they would position that asset on its own.
speaker-1: And list it first. So right. So it's Paramount WB. They're the overarching labels. The very first thing they chose to put in the line was DC. And the fact that it Report to the CEO, I I don't know how you can read it any other way. This thing is a centerpiece of what they intend to do. How can you read that any other way? It's their num they view it as from an IP perspective. I don't think it's their number one overall thing they have. I'll talk about that later. But like From a pure IP perspective, Harry Potter, Transformers, G.I. Joe, Mission Impossible, Top Gun, like all those different things that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, all those things that they have, they internally believe D C is the number one piece of IP that they control. That's what it says to I
speaker-0: But
speaker-1: you don't think it's the top priority for them? Enon Crees?
speaker-0: What's the guy's name? And this noun Crease. Would you say this company is under distress?
speaker-1: I think there's a yeah, I think we can talk about it. But I mean they had to raise a lot of debt once the deal closed and I would say the market didn't receive that debt all that well, which would indicate they have real concerns about the prospects of this entity. Yes. Is it like fully distressed now? No. But I think there's a real yellow flags, let's call it, around this.
speaker-0: Is there any indication as to when they're expecting to sort of recoup or you know, get back in the black?
speaker-1: Yes. So other facts I have for a separate section, they're financial targets, which I think really are important to look at if you're trying to gauge what they're gonna do with DC and some of their other properties. They are aggressive to say the least.
speaker-0: 'Cause again, this is if we believe that James Gunn won't be a part of DC, they're not gonna get rid of James Gunn without having somebody already in mind.
speaker-1: That's correct.
speaker-0: So I so I don't know what that whole Christopher Nolan thing was all about, if Chris Nolan would be interested in something like that.
speaker-1: I would say no. To run D C no.
speaker-0: Yeah. But pr I don't know what that what that is. What that what that display was.
speaker-1: I think it's they intend to try to bring him back as film maker for the studio. Yes. To build to mend those benches and figure out some kind of deal where he's making his next projects for them.
speaker-0: Th those are the things that I was thinking about. Again, you've owned this IP forever. You could have done what MCU has did a long time ago, but they never did it and they've tried it over and over again and it hasn't worked. To me, I just feel like the fans have had it. But because this is a new entity, the attempt will be made to rejuvenate this IP. They cannot afford not to try, right? But if they are unable to get to the utopia that was the MCU. And that that success, I don't know how you keep
speaker-1: Yeah, I know that you're on I I mean, we totally disagree on this, but I I think to me, like the signal is what I would take from it is just how much pressure is on DC studios to deliver not average, not small hits, to deliver massive hits. And I think that goes right to the James Gunn conversation of what's really happening with this.
speaker-0: And we've heard conversations of individuals speaking about where DC is. Ben Aff, we heard Ben Affleck say a few things. There have been some others. I think even I don't know if I would say Alan Richon spoke about it, but there have been some others that have said something of where we should be and what should we be doing. And not these other things that make absolutely no sense financially to put in money in towards. So if DC Studios is the number one thing that they are putting up as a thing we gotta make work, then you don't start off with grad and this other stuff that just don't make sense and w a a and just makes us scratch our heads like
speaker-1: What the hell are we doing here, Harry? What I see is they cannot afford to have Man of Tomorrow be dead on arrival.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: So we know from history, if they make the change now, that movie will be dead on arrival.
speaker-0: yes, yes, yes. Okay.
speaker-1: I don't
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: think it's a commentary on how good it is. I think we I simply think it's a commentary on we gotta scratch every dollar out of that that we can because it's a temple blockbuster picture for twenty twenty seven. We have
speaker-0: Doesn't and it doesn't make sense for us to announce that James Gunn is out.
speaker-1: Right now. Correct. So I to me it's about that continuity is what's driving this. Like they're already under contract for next year. We don't have to do anything right now. And that project has to make us some kind of bank. So they are gonna let that have as much breathing room as it can without saying anything about the long term future of these individuals. And I would point out then Puck News, when they gave their report about these two guys staying on, they put in there a clause that said, at least initially, quote. Now They are s well informed enough to know that if had they signed a long-term extension, they would have Report it. So that's how you know they're operating under an existing contract that simply goes past Manitama. If you watched our part one, I think we did a very fair job of grading them commercially on the first projects of the DCU. And you will see we hand it out F's, we hand it out C's, we handed out no A's commercially. When you look at this presentation and the facts of the case. They expect DC Studios to deliver A's commercially, repeatedly, and they expect the downsides to be B, B minus. They are not here for Cs, D's, and Fs. And if you got two guys who all they're giving you with six or seven reps is C's, D's and F's, they will not be in that position after twenty twenty seven. I don't think any of what we heard changes a damn thing. I think these guys are toast. I think they're toast after Man at tomorrow. And I think the track record that this company, with the emphasis they're putting on D C as part of this all or nothing play that they're basically making for the combined entity, these guys are not making it to twenty twenty eight.
speaker-0: What do we have to compare this with as far as
speaker-1: Yeah. Funny you should mention that. Because a lot of what I think people that are in the pro gun camp are hanging their hat on is these productive meetings that David Ellison has had with Gun and Saffron. So supposedly they pitched him on their 10 year vision, he was receptive, he was positive, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Well, let's introduce a new set of facts into the case. Michael DeLupa and Pamela Abde, who oversaw films for Warner Brothers. Had a very interesting last couple of years. They went from almost being fired in 2025 to maybe the greatest, most successful run of films in 2026 has ever been produced. They broke records, records for profitability. They broke records for Oscars. And then 2027 really, really sucked for them. It was really bad. And what you realized at the end of it was kind of like did they manipulate the calendar while they were trying to sell this company to make sure the good stuff was going out the door first? And once the company was sold. Then the bad stuff came out. It kind of looks that way, but in any case, from deadline, they were quote the duo were blindsided and upset to learn about their fates, meaning they were fired, from Thursday night's Report without ever receiving a phone call from David Ellison. After a dinner between the duo and Ellison months ago provided them. with optimism. End quote.
speaker-0: Sounds like Ellison learned a lot from what's it Zaslov?
speaker-1: Lazdlov went around, he made nice with all the personnel while he was wooing the company and trying to get everyone on board, and then he came in and axed them immediately. And like the other thing that's interesting is unlike James Gunn and Peter Saffron, Michael DeLuca and Pamela Abbey signed multi year extensions at the end of last year.
speaker-0: That was supposed to last through what
speaker-1: But we don't know. But the point is, in order to fire them, they had to buy them out. They had to pay them nine figures each. Wow.
speaker-0: Then does his chillin'.
speaker-1: So fact pattern, he meets with the executives, they leave the dinner thinking they're safe. He closes a deal, and not only does he not want them around, he's willing to pay them a hundred over a hundred million each to not be around. Now, how are you gonna do that and then tell me? That James Gunn and Peter Saffron should feel safe because he liked their pitch. Like, come on. Like, you can't tell me where's James where's Captain Kirk? Don't trust. You can't. Like, how can you trust this guy when he just did that to these two people who, granted, had an ice cold 26, but I mean, one battle after another, they had seven straight movies that opened with over 40 million US, which had never been done before. Sinners, like, but here's the other thing. Now, this is speculation. Why did they get fired? So the first off, Paramount already had their own people. So you it's tough to have four studio chiefs, right? That's a little weird. So you you got they already had their own people. But the thing that's come out after is kind of that like this is unconfirmed, is that the new Skydance is like modern baseball. It's all about analytics. So they are basically studying trends and patterns to try to determine highest probability of box office success. And the complaint they had with DeLuca and Abdi is they were all about the creatives. They were all about like, hey, we're gonna sign the biggest names like Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're just gonna trust. We're gonna bet that like our hit rate will be high enough off that. And the argument was they're like, well, numbers say no, that's not a good move. The numbers say you should be having these types of movies made by these types of people at these types of budgets, and that's what we're gonna do. That's unconfirmed, but that's a rumor that that is what is now driving a lot of The decision making. So I go back to with what we just told you about DC and how it's doing commercially, are you seriously going to tell me that an analytics view of the DCU is going to look on that favorably and say that what they're doing is maximizing chances for billion dollar projects? No, no. No. Like, there's no chance. Because what are those analytics gonna look at, first and foremost? The MCU. That's what they're gonna look at. Look at Spider Man.
speaker-0: Gold standard.
speaker-1: Analytics is just looking at historical data to try to predict trend, right? That's all it is. That's what they're gonna study. This is no different than Will Smith and what was it, John Lassiter, where at the start of his career they looked at what the highest grossing movies of all time were and they built his career on making sure that he starred in all of those types of vehicles. This is the modern version of that, if it's true.
speaker-0: Luca and Abde Productions, they got the money to do it now.
speaker-1: They're gonna land. You know, you know where I think they should land is Netflix. I think Netflix should actually hire them to help because Netflix has trouble with movies, like getting movies to be big hits. And these guy these two clearly have good relationships with directors. I I would I would bring them in to build some movies for them and see what happens. So But anyway, I don't know. I mean if you're James I don't know how you can read all these facts together and feel like James Gunn and Peter Saffron. have any sort of staying power here. They feel highly vulnerable to me. And this is and the analytics would say, by the way, don't fire them ahead of man of tomorrow. That's what the analytics would say. That's a bad move business wise.
speaker-0: Makes that's yeah, absolutely. Look at Dark Phoenix.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: People just for what? What's the purpose? Yeah.
speaker-1: We got plenty of movies.
speaker-0: Yeah, because if it's amazing, we're not gonna get a part two. I don't understand it why people who believe like it all you want. It's you it's I don't care. But if it's not making money This is a business and we're in the business of being in business and we're doing business. That's what cause at the end of the day, that's what it's about. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. Money.
speaker-0: Biden man messed it up for everybody, yo.
speaker-1: These projects need margin, right? Like you can get away with break even if you really believe you got the sequel locked up to be huge, right? So it's like Batman Begins works in the that day because the dark night comes after it, right? It's that you Batman Begins, as we've said many times, is a billion-dollar movie masquerading as a $400 million movie. It's way better than it's box office. But Batman was in the trash. When Christopher Nolan made that movie. That's why that movie doesn't get that kind of butt. He lifted it out of the basement from Batman and Robin. And then the sequel shows up and people were ready. So you can get away with that if you believe if you're confident and you know the filmmaker's gonna give you the second one that's gonna be the mega hit. But this company, they need hits right away, man. This is the Gene Hackman Crimson time. We don't have time to efference.
speaker-0: If we don't have time to mess around, then how are we getting guerrilla ground in these things?
speaker-1: So I think it's because that's too late. Like it basically like James Gunn shoved those over the finish line, right? Like Ellison didn't make the call on those. And I guess with Grod's show, it's it's pretty cheap. I did say, like, I did see Blo Casey Bloys is staying as the combined streaming head. So they got rid of the Paramount heads. They kept him which makes sense. I mean, he's HBO is HBO, right? You should keep the head HBO. You'd be dumb not to. But Grod is a streaming property. There's gonna be a lot of streaming consolidation because they have three or four streamers, right? They have Paramount Plus, they have HBO Max, they have Discovery Plus. They're only gonna have one streamer. Yeah. And that's a lot of the money they're trying to save is getting rid of all the tech and getting rid of all the branding around that and just going down to one. But yeah, he kind of played his cards pretty well. Man, it's tomorrow and grail grasp. He got those things out the door before he could be stopped. He he yeah, he did he did the he did the Jordan Belfort, right? I'm not leaving. Show goes on, he did it.
speaker-0: that man more info Skydance plans 'cause they have the Spielberg and Bay back, you know, for the Transformers and Brian Cooper's Duke and so what all of these other IPs what does it signal for Sky Dance as far as what they're intending to do here?
speaker-1: So now let's talk about the targets. So what are what is Skydance publicly told the market it can do? And how does that inform what they might creatively want to do? So, first off, you asked about the debt. Why don't we just start there? you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that if you are levered a lot, that's a concern. You need to get that down. So David Zaslov took debt at the WB Discovery from fifty-three billion to thirty-three billion during his tenure, just as an example. This company, which is starting at eighty billion, is levered six and a half times day one. That's strong
speaker-0: I don't know how you sleep at night, but guys.
speaker-1: strong cash flowing companies are typically like one, one to two, six and a half's a lot. They are telling people they can get that into the threes by twenty twenty nine.
speaker-0: Three, okay.
speaker-1: Cutting the leverage from six and a half times to like under four times in three years. So like a turn a year. That is fast. That's a lot. You got to generate a lot of cash and you got to pay down debt to do that. They are also telling people in the presentation, public available, you look it up. They can grow revenues of everything TV, streaming, movies, all of it. Mid single digits per year for the next five between 2026 and 2030. They are saying they can grow EBITDA. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization from its current $12 billion level to greater than $20 billion during that time. $2 billion of incremental kind of core profit per year for the next four years. That is a lot for a company of that size in a business as competitive and low margin as this. That is the North Star. Whenever you think about the decision making and the speculation, what might be true, what might be true? When Pablo makes that gesture to the clock, that's really what he's talking about. Because they are basically creating. Numbers that justify the debt. That's why these are like people are looking at us being like a lot of these companies don't grow at all. You're saying you can grow 5% a year for four straight years with TV networks and stuff that people don't like. All of which is say they got a hit. They got a hit on the revenue side for sure. They need big hits on the revenue side. It also means they are going to gut the crap out of this company. All the night make nights they were doing about personnel and c they need to get costs out of this thing fast. So it's coming. And I think that means when it comes to stuff like DC, again, they do not have the time for small fries. Honestly, they don't have time for 10 year plans to get to somewhere. They need Iron Man One. They need Spider Man Homecoming. They need Dark Knight. Like they need, you know, Avengers. They need that stuff now. That is going to drive the thinking of all the IP.
speaker-0: Keep thinking about that Batman music. They need that. And we talked about it in our last show about how much of it could it be possible. We talked about yo, you can't have so many Batman going now. Guess what?
speaker-1: This is what I'm talking about. This is why we did that show because like when the when I saw these, I was like, that's the kind of pressure this entire entity's under. And the reality is like, you know, CNN on its best day is not solving that issue. It's not
speaker-0: yeah, there's a lot of changes coming, man.
speaker-1: No, that's and like there's gonna be a lot of desperation. There's gonna be a lot of urgency. And if they're doing analytics, like this is gonna be a pure cutthroat, cold bottom line type of deal. There's not room for like, boy, that is a real and it's a shame. I will say this is why I don't trust them in some ways, because like what a shame. Because there's gonna be some of those like, wow, that is a really cool creative idea. And they're probably gonna pass because they're gonna be like, we just can't take the risk.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's unfortunate.
speaker-0: Get ahead of app Amazon. You got you have big money. And you, like us, are big fans of DC and want DC to succeed, and you would like the opportunity to build content around that IP and create this universe and be on par or even perhaps, dare I say, better than the MCU. If you wanted it, how would you approach trying to get it?
speaker-1: I mean you'd have to godfather them way above and beyond probably what you think it's even worth in the next five to ten years. You would just have to say, like, over the long run, you'd have to do the Disney, right? Like do what Disney did with Star Wars and with Marvel at the time. It's like when you look at what they paid in the moment for something like Marvel, you're like, Yeah, they overpaid. But obviously you make it pay off with the difference. And now Disney had with the parks and they had stuff that like d Skydance doesn't have, right? They had ways to make money on this that Skydances doesn't have but Again, I I think it's a non starter. I think if you're if you're Skydance, that's a call you take for smaller IPs. Someone calls you with a Godfather offer for G.I. Joe, you listen. I think someone calls you to try to have a conversation about DC, you hang up the phone. I mean, I think I think that's you're too you're just too early. Now, if someone calls you with a creative licensing deal, well, that's already happening, right? Cape Crusader is on Amazon. I do think you're gonna see licensing deals. And in fact, they kind of are hinting at it. This is where the Afflack quote about like AI and Frank Miller still having influence on what's going on at DC is sort of interesting because I do think there is this like, you know, Oracle's trying to be at the AI table, like a lot of these big companies are. They're having their I'm not gonna say anything about how they're doing, but just like AI is a big component of this. And there is a quote, I think it's from Larry, not from David, talking about this idea of like someday. You're gonna figure out a way through AI to license all of your catalog and you're gonna have all these independent filmmakers making their own versions of these movies. I think that's a tell, right? I mean, like they're probably gonna you know, Disney messed around with this with Sora and then Sora kinda went away. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw some kind of like AI type licensing deal where like you can have access to the likeness of Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman and an independent film. Like a Kane Parsons can make his backrooms version. Of Justice League on YouTube. And that becomes a different Elseworld's version of it. That becomes a mega hit. I think that's possible. That's the licensing I see. I just don't see them letting go of the actual characters themselves.
speaker-0: Got it. Did you say anything about the the Transformers and
speaker-1: No, because I think this is a tell. Okay. One of the first moves to the point about everything we just talked about. They need big, they need now. They want swings. Like, I don't know how smart this is, and I have problems with this particular decision. But I can tell you what the analytics were looking at when they did this. So they announced Steven Spielberg is going to return as the creative head of all things Transformers. Because as you recall, he had a hand in the story and production of the original Transformers film. Now, his name was on the other ones, but the first one is the only one that he was sort of directly involved in. He's the only one that's really any good. Now they're talking to Michael Bay about coming back to direct more Transformers. I don't I love Michael Bay. I don't love him as a Transformers director. But come on, you know what the analytics are looking at. 800 million for the first movie, a billion plus for the next three movies. Worldwide grosses were 70, 80% of the total. That's what they're looking at. We don't have time to mess around with. What was going on with the most recent stuff, we're bringing back the guys who brought us mega success in the past with this IP. And we are getting rid of the stupid crossover as part of it. Because the analytics probably say nobody wanted that. I think the Transformers thing is an important proof point of how they're managing this. And again, I don't think it's a good sign for Gun and Saffron because they're looking at like, hey, who can give us the biggest Transformers movies fastest? We got Steven Spielberg, we Michael Bay. It worked before, it'll work again. I don't know that that's right. I gotta be honest with you. I don't know that that's right. But that is I think what they're looking for. I think they will ask Christopher Nolan to run DC, to be clear. I think he's gonna say no.
speaker-0: In our comment section, somebody said Bruce Tim and how you how how do you know? I like we've been talking about Bruce Tim forever. That's right.
speaker-1: Lord Miller. Lord and Miller. I told you. To me, that's the two guys who have the family friendly and the dramatic and the big scale and the animated and small scale. That's those the two guys I talked to. Now, I'm curious to see if the Chris Nolan thing, because like I I do think they're going to pay, talk about Godfather offers. I think they're going to try to come up with a way to get him back with like, hey, we'll give you all the IMAX resources you want for your next project. Here's the way I wonder they're going to try to steal a little DC out of him. Is it going to be like in the contract, they'll be like, hey, will you put your name on some of this. Like you're not really involved, but you will you be willing to let yourself be listed as an EP? Will you be like a conciliary for some of the and I don't even think he's necessarily the best qualified for that stuff because like if he he had a hand in the in the Snyderverse, right? And like I don't think that was that successful. But I wonder if they're gonna try to sell peop the broader audience of like, hey, you know, we got Christopher Nolan, he's directing his next original thing and then he's an E P on our new D C stuff. Like I I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't rule out them trying to get him to do it. I just don't know if he'll do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I don't think he'll do that. Why? Like why? Why no no no no.
speaker-1: They got the directors though, Pablo. That's the thing. Like, if you want, to me, like if you want to make DC exciting, what I would be focused on, no one's great. Like, we get it. He's the preeminent filmmaker working today. But like, don't shortchange who you already got in-house. You got Ryan Coogler already. You got Joe Kacinski already. You got Denny Villeneuve already. I know he's doing Bomb, but he just did doing for you. And he's done other movies for you. He did like how about those guys for working on some DC stuff? I mean, I've been saying it forever. Like, get Kacinski to do Justice League. You wanna see a Justice League aerial that looks cool? Get that guy to do it. You wanna see a truly cosmic Green Lantern that looks badass? Get didn't even have to do it. Like now we're talking. You wanna talk things that can make a billion dollars that look and win awards and look fabulous with DC characters? You already got people in house. Chris Macquarie, Mission Impossible. If you wanna do some cool action with some of your there, these guys are right there. I don't those are the conversations I think should be have. And I like I I know we haven't talked about Zach in this. He posted his thing saying Faith Faith, Alfred, Faith after the deal closed. I would love to know how analytics actually thinks about his universe. My bias is analytics would actually be unfavorable to him. Because it would say that in the era in which he made his movies, those movies should have made more money than they did. But I don't know, I don't know if that's true or not. I don't
speaker-0: Zach Snyder that's is done, is over with. It's over with. Like if I was an exec, I'll be I want to hear his name in any discussion about what he wants to do. Yeah, he did Watchmen, he did three hundred, and those would be the movies that he would compare his version of Batman the Dark Knight. And
speaker-1: Yeah. That'd be the that's the only reason you give him that shot is when Frank Miller gives him the material, then he seems able to do something with
speaker-0: Perhaps that may be the reason why they do it because Frank Miller is so involved with them, right?
speaker-1: Mm-hmm that's what Affleck was kinda saying, you know, I think he was hinting at. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a possibility because of that. You know, if Frank Miller wants to see that and they he can probably make that happen and he gets a chance. And listen, it's an Elsewhere thing. It's not him running DCU. If that happens, I'd be like, dude, you're doing this. Once this is over, bye-bye.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm fine with that.
speaker-0: I don't want to hear no more pitches.
speaker-1: I don't think they're but I don't think they're bringing back the Snyder burst. Like I said, I just based upon what I'm seeing like the fact that they brought back Bay and Spielberg, I don't think is necessarily like a read that they're gonna automatically bring back Zach. And I do think it's interesting that like I said in that sizzle reel they didn't show any D C E U.
speaker-0: There we that's the that's what very telling you right there.
speaker-1: So the one thing I will say though, this is pure speculation. 100% spec. So take none of this as information. Enon Krees. Well, the funny thing is, you know, his nickname is The Fixer. So he actually kind of has a villain name. The Fixer. He he's of Israeli descent. He is very close with Galgada, just pointing that out. If you were going to resurrect anything individually, if you're doing any of that one-off, that's The one maybe I would keep an eye on. Because again, the other thing is DC answered to Zaslov, but in reality, it answered to no one. Because Zaslov let Gun and Saffron do their thing. Ellison and Krees are not going to just let them do their thing. And especially if they've got the analytics, they got the entity sitting in their office telling them what to do, they are going to have thoughts. Actually editing and meddling. And that's not good either necessarily good either, but I'm just saying the gun and saffron, even if they are there. are going to be operating with different type of oversight. So just keep an eye on that one. They those two are close. Like I think Gall gave him like a lifetime achievement award like in the last two years. Like they're obviously same same descent. Like, you know, that just one of those things I just circled as like, hmm, I wonder.
speaker-0: But yeah. Anything else, Brian, before we wrap this one up?
speaker-1: I know people were waiting for us to kind of talk about us. We kind of did it as like a megapod here with two parts, but we didn't even get into all these other executives that they named in roles that we don't particularly care about. But all I'm gonna say to people is if you Google image lineup, it will come up for you. They all look the same. There's one woman, Dana Goldberg, one of the co heads of film. There's a lot of white guys, old white guys in charge. I'm not, you know, not here to make a commentary on that either way. I'm simply saying I see old school. I that's my point. I don't see a lot of like, hey, I got the I got Kevin Feige as production assistant who's now got a voice. I don't see that in this lineup. I see a lot of like been around the block, provens, people who know each other, a club, a boys' club for the most part. That obviously has an impact on how business gets done, you know, and how and decisions that get made. And it's not all good. I'm just saying that's what I see. And they are in a race against time. I I said this to you over text. The biggest asset they own is actually one that they pay for. And it's the rights to the NFL. Like that they are at the table for NF well, they're gonna be paying more for NFL rights in a few years. They need cash for that. But they have to retain that because sports is a big sort of selling point for T V and streaming and all this stuff. I
speaker-0: I have a idea for them. I won't tell I won't say it here, but I have an idea for them. Because this is this new era of sports, entertainment is changing. It changes slow because nothing could be too too jarring, but it changes over time. And I think the the era of how we experience sports and how we see sports has to change. So because of that connection that Param or Skydas has with the NFL, they have to take that opportunity to create a new experience for fans. And just having the same old, same old right now, as that clock is ticking, they have to do something. So I have an idea, but I'm not gonna discuss it here because you guys, you know
speaker-1: No
speaker-0: But yeah, let us know in the comment section below what you guys think of do you still believe James Gunn is gonna be running D C
speaker-1: At the end of twenty seven. He's
speaker-0: At the end of twenty seven
speaker-1: definitely running it through mana tomorrow, but is he running it?
speaker-0: You're saying until May May twenty twenty seven.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'll say end of summer next year. I think I think he's done. Yeah. I think when the contract's over, contract expires, there'll be n there'll be new heads.
speaker-0: And you in the comment section saying craziness and all this it's like, come on guys, let's be smart about it, man. We're having a conversation here. If you believe James Gunn is gonna stick around because he's doing a good job, I don't know what to tell you. That just means we
speaker-1: There's just not a commercial basis for that argument in my mind.
speaker-0: But yeah, remember, if you haven't heard it anywhere else, you heard it here first. And remember to hit that like and subscribe. And thank you for continuing with the Nerd Gym Report. This is obviously the format is gonna change a little bit, but it's for the purposes of getting the news out to you as quickly as we can. Remember to hit that like and subscribe, hit the notification bell, cause we will be spamming. But we'll see you next time with the Nerd Gym Report.
speaker-1: it's done. It's done. October second. The new Sky Dance. The name is just Sky Dance is here.
speaker-0: arrives and starts making moves, run down, we're gonna you know, talk about the some of the personnel. Gun and Saffron a has been they have been asked to stay and we'll talk about what it all means, especially when you c think about the Luca and Ab the and the stellar year that they had and
speaker-1: Hold that thought. Yeah, we'll talk about it. We'll talk about it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: You know, he said the same thing. They would be retained. So we'll go into some of those comparisons. Bradley Cooper as Duke and G.I. Joe and and a crossover that somehow was mentioned in the meeting. I would be like, get out.
speaker-1: More than mentioned, they showed a scene. Rise of the beast. Rise of the beast. The end of Rise of the Beast is that crossover. you don't remember that?
speaker-0: Nah, I didn't see Rise of the Beast actually. I didn't see Trash Former.
speaker-1: the end the end scene of it is they are in the hangar with the Joes after the fight with the Decepticons. What?
speaker-0: This all me, cause this is gonna be this is gonna be an interesting next six months, Brian. So let's get the details of what's gonna what has transpired. And again, we've talked about this over and over again that this was gonna happen, and it's happened. What is happening?
speaker-1: Yeah, let's try to live it. Well we'll be trying to be very clear about what is fact and what is speculation. So let's start out with DC facts. Because once again, I feel like this story, people are so jumpy about every little headline without stopping to do the research, stopping to really think it through, trying to look at the other clues that are on the board. But the fact James Gunn and Peter Saffron are staying on following the close of the deal. Fact happening. Fact two. They have not signed a new contract extension. They remain under their existing contracts, which extend into next year, past Man of Tomorrow. So fact one is they were not exited from their contract early. They're still there. Fact two is they do not have a long-term new commitment from the new Skydance. Those are both facts. Okay, so you need to be clear that that's both things are true. Fact three, so inside baseball. At the initial meeting that David Ellison had, the town hall. They showed sizzle reels and promotional material to get the workforce pumped up about the new combined entity. They showed a series of logos that are now underneath the new Skydance. The first logo was the Paramount Mountain with the stars. Second logo was the good old WB, Warner Brothers. The third logo was DC Studios. Key because fact number three is DC will not be folded into in existing film department. It will remain its own piece of the kingdom. Fact three. Interesting. So remember, there was a rumor at one point they were going to roll this into like who the movie guys, movie people were just going to run DC with everything else. Not happening. DC and it was in their internal memo. DC Studios was specifically named as its own label. So there will still be a DC studio. Fact four The heads of DC do not report to the heads of film. They report directly to David Ellison and the new co-CEO, who we'll talk about, Enon Krees. So DC formally Report directly to David Zaslow. They still report directly to the CEO. So the film bosses do not run, James Gunn, Peter Saffron, or whoever's running DC. That's fact four. These are confirmed happening, verified. That's what we've got. Fact five, and this is where the plot gets a little interesting. If you want to read into stuff. In the sizzle reel, what was shown and what was not shown. They showed a couple of highlight clips from DCU product, Superman, lanterns. They didn't show anything from Supergirl. They sh did not show anything from the DC EU in the historical look back. They did show a lot from some other guys' work with DC some 20 years ago. Batman Begins, Dark Knight. Dark Knight Rises, Inception, Tenant, all the movies that he made for Warner Brothers before they ran him off, the old regime ran him off the studio a lot. They showed more Christopher Nolan footage in their sizzle reel than they showed of anyone else.
speaker-0: Wow, that's interesting.
speaker-1: I think it's very conspicuous considering he is technically a free agent after the Odyssey. And you could have shown his entire catalog pre tenant or sorry, up through tenant. And they chose to show a lot of Batman is the work. So we know nothing, but the fact is that's a production choice. They could have chosen anything, right? Yeah. A lot of filmmakers there. They chose to show a lot of Chris Nolan and a lot of Chris Nolan Batman. Read into it if you want. Anyway, those are the the basic facts. Fact number six, I mentioned Enon Krees, new CEO to help David Ellison. Who is he? He's run Mattel for the last eight years. Now Mattel happens to have rights to a certain character who's under a deadline to make a sequel, and they're having problems making that sequel. Barbie. yes. So I think they solved their Barbie issue. Speculation. That guy in part got the job because they need to make Barbie two or get going on that by the end of the year and they're at an impasse. So why not bring in the guy who actually oversees the doll to help resolve that? Now, why is Enon Krees a guy? Like what is he known for? Mattel was failing financially eight years ago when he became the CEO. I think you can debate how successful his regime ultimately was, but his reputation is cutting costs Fixing cash flows, getting distressed companies out of distress. So eighty billion dollars of debt load will tell you he's got his work cut out for him. Can make it easy.
speaker-0: Cell D C but
speaker-1: Anyway, so magnets. Alright, I'm gonna pause. I got other facts, but I'm gonna pause there. That's the the lay of the land. Now they have made a couple other changes. That's a separate section. But any re initial reactions to just a couple of things there about that are DC related? The fact that
speaker-0: Is its own separate entity. That's the biggest thing for me is like why not include something that some would say a moneymaker, automatic. Why would they separate it? I don't know. For me, that's an interesting thought of why they would position that asset on its own.
speaker-1: And list it first. So right. So it's Paramount WB. They're the overarching labels. The very first thing they chose to put in the line was DC. And the fact that it Report to the CEO, I I don't know how you can read it any other way. This thing is a centerpiece of what they intend to do. How can you read that any other way? It's their num they view it as from an IP perspective. I don't think it's their number one overall thing they have. I'll talk about that later. But like From a pure IP perspective, Harry Potter, Transformers, G.I. Joe, Mission Impossible, Top Gun, like all those different things that Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, all those things that they have, they internally believe D C is the number one piece of IP that they control. That's what it says to I
speaker-0: But
speaker-1: you don't think it's the top priority for them? Enon Crees?
speaker-0: What's the guy's name? And this noun Crease. Would you say this company is under distress?
speaker-1: I think there's a yeah, I think we can talk about it. But I mean they had to raise a lot of debt once the deal closed and I would say the market didn't receive that debt all that well, which would indicate they have real concerns about the prospects of this entity. Yes. Is it like fully distressed now? No. But I think there's a real yellow flags, let's call it, around this.
speaker-0: Is there any indication as to when they're expecting to sort of recoup or you know, get back in the black?
speaker-1: Yes. So other facts I have for a separate section, they're financial targets, which I think really are important to look at if you're trying to gauge what they're gonna do with DC and some of their other properties. They are aggressive to say the least.
speaker-0: 'Cause again, this is if we believe that James Gunn won't be a part of DC, they're not gonna get rid of James Gunn without having somebody already in mind.
speaker-1: That's correct.
speaker-0: So I so I don't know what that whole Christopher Nolan thing was all about, if Chris Nolan would be interested in something like that.
speaker-1: I would say no. To run D C no.
speaker-0: Yeah. But pr I don't know what that what that is. What that what that display was.
speaker-1: I think it's they intend to try to bring him back as film maker for the studio. Yes. To build to mend those benches and figure out some kind of deal where he's making his next projects for them.
speaker-0: Th those are the things that I was thinking about. Again, you've owned this IP forever. You could have done what MCU has did a long time ago, but they never did it and they've tried it over and over again and it hasn't worked. To me, I just feel like the fans have had it. But because this is a new entity, the attempt will be made to rejuvenate this IP. They cannot afford not to try, right? But if they are unable to get to the utopia that was the MCU. And that that success, I don't know how you keep
speaker-1: Yeah, I know that you're on I I mean, we totally disagree on this, but I I think to me, like the signal is what I would take from it is just how much pressure is on DC studios to deliver not average, not small hits, to deliver massive hits. And I think that goes right to the James Gunn conversation of what's really happening with this.
speaker-0: And we've heard conversations of individuals speaking about where DC is. Ben Aff, we heard Ben Affleck say a few things. There have been some others. I think even I don't know if I would say Alan Richon spoke about it, but there have been some others that have said something of where we should be and what should we be doing. And not these other things that make absolutely no sense financially to put in money in towards. So if DC Studios is the number one thing that they are putting up as a thing we gotta make work, then you don't start off with grad and this other stuff that just don't make sense and w a a and just makes us scratch our heads like
speaker-1: What the hell are we doing here, Harry? What I see is they cannot afford to have Man of Tomorrow be dead on arrival.
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: So we know from history, if they make the change now, that movie will be dead on arrival.
speaker-0: yes, yes, yes. Okay.
speaker-1: I don't
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: think it's a commentary on how good it is. I think we I simply think it's a commentary on we gotta scratch every dollar out of that that we can because it's a temple blockbuster picture for twenty twenty seven. We have
speaker-0: Doesn't and it doesn't make sense for us to announce that James Gunn is out.
speaker-1: Right now. Correct. So I to me it's about that continuity is what's driving this. Like they're already under contract for next year. We don't have to do anything right now. And that project has to make us some kind of bank. So they are gonna let that have as much breathing room as it can without saying anything about the long term future of these individuals. And I would point out then Puck News, when they gave their report about these two guys staying on, they put in there a clause that said, at least initially, quote. Now They are s well informed enough to know that if had they signed a long-term extension, they would have Report it. So that's how you know they're operating under an existing contract that simply goes past Manitama. If you watched our part one, I think we did a very fair job of grading them commercially on the first projects of the DCU. And you will see we hand it out F's, we hand it out C's, we handed out no A's commercially. When you look at this presentation and the facts of the case. They expect DC Studios to deliver A's commercially, repeatedly, and they expect the downsides to be B, B minus. They are not here for Cs, D's, and Fs. And if you got two guys who all they're giving you with six or seven reps is C's, D's and F's, they will not be in that position after twenty twenty seven. I don't think any of what we heard changes a damn thing. I think these guys are toast. I think they're toast after Man at tomorrow. And I think the track record that this company, with the emphasis they're putting on D C as part of this all or nothing play that they're basically making for the combined entity, these guys are not making it to twenty twenty eight.
speaker-0: What do we have to compare this with as far as
speaker-1: Yeah. Funny you should mention that. Because a lot of what I think people that are in the pro gun camp are hanging their hat on is these productive meetings that David Ellison has had with Gun and Saffron. So supposedly they pitched him on their 10 year vision, he was receptive, he was positive, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Well, let's introduce a new set of facts into the case. Michael DeLupa and Pamela Abde, who oversaw films for Warner Brothers. Had a very interesting last couple of years. They went from almost being fired in 2025 to maybe the greatest, most successful run of films in 2026 has ever been produced. They broke records, records for profitability. They broke records for Oscars. And then 2027 really, really sucked for them. It was really bad. And what you realized at the end of it was kind of like did they manipulate the calendar while they were trying to sell this company to make sure the good stuff was going out the door first? And once the company was sold. Then the bad stuff came out. It kind of looks that way, but in any case, from deadline, they were quote the duo were blindsided and upset to learn about their fates, meaning they were fired, from Thursday night's Report without ever receiving a phone call from David Ellison. After a dinner between the duo and Ellison months ago provided them. with optimism. End quote.
speaker-0: Sounds like Ellison learned a lot from what's it Zaslov?
speaker-1: Lazdlov went around, he made nice with all the personnel while he was wooing the company and trying to get everyone on board, and then he came in and axed them immediately. And like the other thing that's interesting is unlike James Gunn and Peter Saffron, Michael DeLuca and Pamela Abbey signed multi year extensions at the end of last year.
speaker-0: That was supposed to last through what
speaker-1: But we don't know. But the point is, in order to fire them, they had to buy them out. They had to pay them nine figures each. Wow.
speaker-0: Then does his chillin'.
speaker-1: So fact pattern, he meets with the executives, they leave the dinner thinking they're safe. He closes a deal, and not only does he not want them around, he's willing to pay them a hundred over a hundred million each to not be around. Now, how are you gonna do that and then tell me? That James Gunn and Peter Saffron should feel safe because he liked their pitch. Like, come on. Like, you can't tell me where's James where's Captain Kirk? Don't trust. You can't. Like, how can you trust this guy when he just did that to these two people who, granted, had an ice cold 26, but I mean, one battle after another, they had seven straight movies that opened with over 40 million US, which had never been done before. Sinners, like, but here's the other thing. Now, this is speculation. Why did they get fired? So the first off, Paramount already had their own people. So you it's tough to have four studio chiefs, right? That's a little weird. So you you got they already had their own people. But the thing that's come out after is kind of that like this is unconfirmed, is that the new Skydance is like modern baseball. It's all about analytics. So they are basically studying trends and patterns to try to determine highest probability of box office success. And the complaint they had with DeLuca and Abdi is they were all about the creatives. They were all about like, hey, we're gonna sign the biggest names like Paul Thomas Anderson, and we're just gonna trust. We're gonna bet that like our hit rate will be high enough off that. And the argument was they're like, well, numbers say no, that's not a good move. The numbers say you should be having these types of movies made by these types of people at these types of budgets, and that's what we're gonna do. That's unconfirmed, but that's a rumor that that is what is now driving a lot of The decision making. So I go back to with what we just told you about DC and how it's doing commercially, are you seriously going to tell me that an analytics view of the DCU is going to look on that favorably and say that what they're doing is maximizing chances for billion dollar projects? No, no. No. Like, there's no chance. Because what are those analytics gonna look at, first and foremost? The MCU. That's what they're gonna look at. Look at Spider Man.
speaker-0: Gold standard.
speaker-1: Analytics is just looking at historical data to try to predict trend, right? That's all it is. That's what they're gonna study. This is no different than Will Smith and what was it, John Lassiter, where at the start of his career they looked at what the highest grossing movies of all time were and they built his career on making sure that he starred in all of those types of vehicles. This is the modern version of that, if it's true.
speaker-0: Luca and Abde Productions, they got the money to do it now.
speaker-1: They're gonna land. You know, you know where I think they should land is Netflix. I think Netflix should actually hire them to help because Netflix has trouble with movies, like getting movies to be big hits. And these guy these two clearly have good relationships with directors. I I would I would bring them in to build some movies for them and see what happens. So But anyway, I don't know. I mean if you're James I don't know how you can read all these facts together and feel like James Gunn and Peter Saffron. have any sort of staying power here. They feel highly vulnerable to me. And this is and the analytics would say, by the way, don't fire them ahead of man of tomorrow. That's what the analytics would say. That's a bad move business wise.
speaker-0: Makes that's yeah, absolutely. Look at Dark Phoenix.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: People just for what? What's the purpose? Yeah.
speaker-1: We got plenty of movies.
speaker-0: Yeah, because if it's amazing, we're not gonna get a part two. I don't understand it why people who believe like it all you want. It's you it's I don't care. But if it's not making money This is a business and we're in the business of being in business and we're doing business. That's what cause at the end of the day, that's what it's about. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. Money.
speaker-0: Biden man messed it up for everybody, yo.
speaker-1: These projects need margin, right? Like you can get away with break even if you really believe you got the sequel locked up to be huge, right? So it's like Batman Begins works in the that day because the dark night comes after it, right? It's that you Batman Begins, as we've said many times, is a billion-dollar movie masquerading as a $400 million movie. It's way better than it's box office. But Batman was in the trash. When Christopher Nolan made that movie. That's why that movie doesn't get that kind of butt. He lifted it out of the basement from Batman and Robin. And then the sequel shows up and people were ready. So you can get away with that if you believe if you're confident and you know the filmmaker's gonna give you the second one that's gonna be the mega hit. But this company, they need hits right away, man. This is the Gene Hackman Crimson time. We don't have time to efference.
speaker-0: If we don't have time to mess around, then how are we getting guerrilla ground in these things?
speaker-1: So I think it's because that's too late. Like it basically like James Gunn shoved those over the finish line, right? Like Ellison didn't make the call on those. And I guess with Grod's show, it's it's pretty cheap. I did say, like, I did see Blo Casey Bloys is staying as the combined streaming head. So they got rid of the Paramount heads. They kept him which makes sense. I mean, he's HBO is HBO, right? You should keep the head HBO. You'd be dumb not to. But Grod is a streaming property. There's gonna be a lot of streaming consolidation because they have three or four streamers, right? They have Paramount Plus, they have HBO Max, they have Discovery Plus. They're only gonna have one streamer. Yeah. And that's a lot of the money they're trying to save is getting rid of all the tech and getting rid of all the branding around that and just going down to one. But yeah, he kind of played his cards pretty well. Man, it's tomorrow and grail grasp. He got those things out the door before he could be stopped. He he yeah, he did he did the he did the Jordan Belfort, right? I'm not leaving. Show goes on, he did it.
speaker-0: that man more info Skydance plans 'cause they have the Spielberg and Bay back, you know, for the Transformers and Brian Cooper's Duke and so what all of these other IPs what does it signal for Sky Dance as far as what they're intending to do here?
speaker-1: So now let's talk about the targets. So what are what is Skydance publicly told the market it can do? And how does that inform what they might creatively want to do? So, first off, you asked about the debt. Why don't we just start there? you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that if you are levered a lot, that's a concern. You need to get that down. So David Zaslov took debt at the WB Discovery from fifty-three billion to thirty-three billion during his tenure, just as an example. This company, which is starting at eighty billion, is levered six and a half times day one. That's strong
speaker-0: I don't know how you sleep at night, but guys.
speaker-1: strong cash flowing companies are typically like one, one to two, six and a half's a lot. They are telling people they can get that into the threes by twenty twenty nine.
speaker-0: Three, okay.
speaker-1: Cutting the leverage from six and a half times to like under four times in three years. So like a turn a year. That is fast. That's a lot. You got to generate a lot of cash and you got to pay down debt to do that. They are also telling people in the presentation, public available, you look it up. They can grow revenues of everything TV, streaming, movies, all of it. Mid single digits per year for the next five between 2026 and 2030. They are saying they can grow EBITDA. Earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation, amortization from its current $12 billion level to greater than $20 billion during that time. $2 billion of incremental kind of core profit per year for the next four years. That is a lot for a company of that size in a business as competitive and low margin as this. That is the North Star. Whenever you think about the decision making and the speculation, what might be true, what might be true? When Pablo makes that gesture to the clock, that's really what he's talking about. Because they are basically creating. Numbers that justify the debt. That's why these are like people are looking at us being like a lot of these companies don't grow at all. You're saying you can grow 5% a year for four straight years with TV networks and stuff that people don't like. All of which is say they got a hit. They got a hit on the revenue side for sure. They need big hits on the revenue side. It also means they are going to gut the crap out of this company. All the night make nights they were doing about personnel and c they need to get costs out of this thing fast. So it's coming. And I think that means when it comes to stuff like DC, again, they do not have the time for small fries. Honestly, they don't have time for 10 year plans to get to somewhere. They need Iron Man One. They need Spider Man Homecoming. They need Dark Knight. Like they need, you know, Avengers. They need that stuff now. That is going to drive the thinking of all the IP.
speaker-0: Keep thinking about that Batman music. They need that. And we talked about it in our last show about how much of it could it be possible. We talked about yo, you can't have so many Batman going now. Guess what?
speaker-1: This is what I'm talking about. This is why we did that show because like when the when I saw these, I was like, that's the kind of pressure this entire entity's under. And the reality is like, you know, CNN on its best day is not solving that issue. It's not
speaker-0: yeah, there's a lot of changes coming, man.
speaker-1: No, that's and like there's gonna be a lot of desperation. There's gonna be a lot of urgency. And if they're doing analytics, like this is gonna be a pure cutthroat, cold bottom line type of deal. There's not room for like, boy, that is a real and it's a shame. I will say this is why I don't trust them in some ways, because like what a shame. Because there's gonna be some of those like, wow, that is a really cool creative idea. And they're probably gonna pass because they're gonna be like, we just can't take the risk.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: That's unfortunate.
speaker-0: Get ahead of app Amazon. You got you have big money. And you, like us, are big fans of DC and want DC to succeed, and you would like the opportunity to build content around that IP and create this universe and be on par or even perhaps, dare I say, better than the MCU. If you wanted it, how would you approach trying to get it?
speaker-1: I mean you'd have to godfather them way above and beyond probably what you think it's even worth in the next five to ten years. You would just have to say, like, over the long run, you'd have to do the Disney, right? Like do what Disney did with Star Wars and with Marvel at the time. It's like when you look at what they paid in the moment for something like Marvel, you're like, Yeah, they overpaid. But obviously you make it pay off with the difference. And now Disney had with the parks and they had stuff that like d Skydance doesn't have, right? They had ways to make money on this that Skydances doesn't have but Again, I I think it's a non starter. I think if you're if you're Skydance, that's a call you take for smaller IPs. Someone calls you with a Godfather offer for G.I. Joe, you listen. I think someone calls you to try to have a conversation about DC, you hang up the phone. I mean, I think I think that's you're too you're just too early. Now, if someone calls you with a creative licensing deal, well, that's already happening, right? Cape Crusader is on Amazon. I do think you're gonna see licensing deals. And in fact, they kind of are hinting at it. This is where the Afflack quote about like AI and Frank Miller still having influence on what's going on at DC is sort of interesting because I do think there is this like, you know, Oracle's trying to be at the AI table, like a lot of these big companies are. They're having their I'm not gonna say anything about how they're doing, but just like AI is a big component of this. And there is a quote, I think it's from Larry, not from David, talking about this idea of like someday. You're gonna figure out a way through AI to license all of your catalog and you're gonna have all these independent filmmakers making their own versions of these movies. I think that's a tell, right? I mean, like they're probably gonna you know, Disney messed around with this with Sora and then Sora kinda went away. Mm-hmm. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw some kind of like AI type licensing deal where like you can have access to the likeness of Batman and Superman and Wonder Woman and an independent film. Like a Kane Parsons can make his backrooms version. Of Justice League on YouTube. And that becomes a different Elseworld's version of it. That becomes a mega hit. I think that's possible. That's the licensing I see. I just don't see them letting go of the actual characters themselves.
speaker-0: Got it. Did you say anything about the the Transformers and
speaker-1: No, because I think this is a tell. Okay. One of the first moves to the point about everything we just talked about. They need big, they need now. They want swings. Like, I don't know how smart this is, and I have problems with this particular decision. But I can tell you what the analytics were looking at when they did this. So they announced Steven Spielberg is going to return as the creative head of all things Transformers. Because as you recall, he had a hand in the story and production of the original Transformers film. Now, his name was on the other ones, but the first one is the only one that he was sort of directly involved in. He's the only one that's really any good. Now they're talking to Michael Bay about coming back to direct more Transformers. I don't I love Michael Bay. I don't love him as a Transformers director. But come on, you know what the analytics are looking at. 800 million for the first movie, a billion plus for the next three movies. Worldwide grosses were 70, 80% of the total. That's what they're looking at. We don't have time to mess around with. What was going on with the most recent stuff, we're bringing back the guys who brought us mega success in the past with this IP. And we are getting rid of the stupid crossover as part of it. Because the analytics probably say nobody wanted that. I think the Transformers thing is an important proof point of how they're managing this. And again, I don't think it's a good sign for Gun and Saffron because they're looking at like, hey, who can give us the biggest Transformers movies fastest? We got Steven Spielberg, we Michael Bay. It worked before, it'll work again. I don't know that that's right. I gotta be honest with you. I don't know that that's right. But that is I think what they're looking for. I think they will ask Christopher Nolan to run DC, to be clear. I think he's gonna say no.
speaker-0: In our comment section, somebody said Bruce Tim and how you how how do you know? I like we've been talking about Bruce Tim forever. That's right.
speaker-1: Lord Miller. Lord and Miller. I told you. To me, that's the two guys who have the family friendly and the dramatic and the big scale and the animated and small scale. That's those the two guys I talked to. Now, I'm curious to see if the Chris Nolan thing, because like I I do think they're going to pay, talk about Godfather offers. I think they're going to try to come up with a way to get him back with like, hey, we'll give you all the IMAX resources you want for your next project. Here's the way I wonder they're going to try to steal a little DC out of him. Is it going to be like in the contract, they'll be like, hey, will you put your name on some of this. Like you're not really involved, but you will you be willing to let yourself be listed as an EP? Will you be like a conciliary for some of the and I don't even think he's necessarily the best qualified for that stuff because like if he he had a hand in the in the Snyderverse, right? And like I don't think that was that successful. But I wonder if they're gonna try to sell peop the broader audience of like, hey, you know, we got Christopher Nolan, he's directing his next original thing and then he's an E P on our new D C stuff. Like I I wouldn't rule it out. I wouldn't rule out them trying to get him to do it. I just don't know if he'll do it.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I don't think he'll do that. Why? Like why? Why no no no no.
speaker-1: They got the directors though, Pablo. That's the thing. Like, if you want, to me, like if you want to make DC exciting, what I would be focused on, no one's great. Like, we get it. He's the preeminent filmmaker working today. But like, don't shortchange who you already got in-house. You got Ryan Coogler already. You got Joe Kacinski already. You got Denny Villeneuve already. I know he's doing Bomb, but he just did doing for you. And he's done other movies for you. He did like how about those guys for working on some DC stuff? I mean, I've been saying it forever. Like, get Kacinski to do Justice League. You wanna see a Justice League aerial that looks cool? Get that guy to do it. You wanna see a truly cosmic Green Lantern that looks badass? Get didn't even have to do it. Like now we're talking. You wanna talk things that can make a billion dollars that look and win awards and look fabulous with DC characters? You already got people in house. Chris Macquarie, Mission Impossible. If you wanna do some cool action with some of your there, these guys are right there. I don't those are the conversations I think should be have. And I like I I know we haven't talked about Zach in this. He posted his thing saying Faith Faith, Alfred, Faith after the deal closed. I would love to know how analytics actually thinks about his universe. My bias is analytics would actually be unfavorable to him. Because it would say that in the era in which he made his movies, those movies should have made more money than they did. But I don't know, I don't know if that's true or not. I don't
speaker-0: Zach Snyder that's is done, is over with. It's over with. Like if I was an exec, I'll be I want to hear his name in any discussion about what he wants to do. Yeah, he did Watchmen, he did three hundred, and those would be the movies that he would compare his version of Batman the Dark Knight. And
speaker-1: Yeah. That'd be the that's the only reason you give him that shot is when Frank Miller gives him the material, then he seems able to do something with
speaker-0: Perhaps that may be the reason why they do it because Frank Miller is so involved with them, right?
speaker-1: Mm-hmm that's what Affleck was kinda saying, you know, I think he was hinting at. Yeah.
speaker-0: That's a possibility because of that. You know, if Frank Miller wants to see that and they he can probably make that happen and he gets a chance. And listen, it's an Elsewhere thing. It's not him running DCU. If that happens, I'd be like, dude, you're doing this. Once this is over, bye-bye.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'm fine with that.
speaker-0: I don't want to hear no more pitches.
speaker-1: I don't think they're but I don't think they're bringing back the Snyder burst. Like I said, I just based upon what I'm seeing like the fact that they brought back Bay and Spielberg, I don't think is necessarily like a read that they're gonna automatically bring back Zach. And I do think it's interesting that like I said in that sizzle reel they didn't show any D C E U.
speaker-0: There we that's the that's what very telling you right there.
speaker-1: So the one thing I will say though, this is pure speculation. 100% spec. So take none of this as information. Enon Krees. Well, the funny thing is, you know, his nickname is The Fixer. So he actually kind of has a villain name. The Fixer. He he's of Israeli descent. He is very close with Galgada, just pointing that out. If you were going to resurrect anything individually, if you're doing any of that one-off, that's The one maybe I would keep an eye on. Because again, the other thing is DC answered to Zaslov, but in reality, it answered to no one. Because Zaslov let Gun and Saffron do their thing. Ellison and Krees are not going to just let them do their thing. And especially if they've got the analytics, they got the entity sitting in their office telling them what to do, they are going to have thoughts. Actually editing and meddling. And that's not good either necessarily good either, but I'm just saying the gun and saffron, even if they are there. are going to be operating with different type of oversight. So just keep an eye on that one. They those two are close. Like I think Gall gave him like a lifetime achievement award like in the last two years. Like they're obviously same same descent. Like, you know, that just one of those things I just circled as like, hmm, I wonder.
speaker-0: But yeah. Anything else, Brian, before we wrap this one up?
speaker-1: I know people were waiting for us to kind of talk about us. We kind of did it as like a megapod here with two parts, but we didn't even get into all these other executives that they named in roles that we don't particularly care about. But all I'm gonna say to people is if you Google image lineup, it will come up for you. They all look the same. There's one woman, Dana Goldberg, one of the co heads of film. There's a lot of white guys, old white guys in charge. I'm not, you know, not here to make a commentary on that either way. I'm simply saying I see old school. I that's my point. I don't see a lot of like, hey, I got the I got Kevin Feige as production assistant who's now got a voice. I don't see that in this lineup. I see a lot of like been around the block, provens, people who know each other, a club, a boys' club for the most part. That obviously has an impact on how business gets done, you know, and how and decisions that get made. And it's not all good. I'm just saying that's what I see. And they are in a race against time. I I said this to you over text. The biggest asset they own is actually one that they pay for. And it's the rights to the NFL. Like that they are at the table for NF well, they're gonna be paying more for NFL rights in a few years. They need cash for that. But they have to retain that because sports is a big sort of selling point for T V and streaming and all this stuff. I
speaker-0: I have a idea for them. I won't tell I won't say it here, but I have an idea for them. Because this is this new era of sports, entertainment is changing. It changes slow because nothing could be too too jarring, but it changes over time. And I think the the era of how we experience sports and how we see sports has to change. So because of that connection that Param or Skydas has with the NFL, they have to take that opportunity to create a new experience for fans. And just having the same old, same old right now, as that clock is ticking, they have to do something. So I have an idea, but I'm not gonna discuss it here because you guys, you know
speaker-1: No
speaker-0: But yeah, let us know in the comment section below what you guys think of do you still believe James Gunn is gonna be running D C
speaker-1: At the end of twenty seven. He's
speaker-0: At the end of twenty seven
speaker-1: definitely running it through mana tomorrow, but is he running it?
speaker-0: You're saying until May May twenty twenty seven.
speaker-1: Yeah, I'll say end of summer next year. I think I think he's done. Yeah. I think when the contract's over, contract expires, there'll be n there'll be new heads.
speaker-0: And you in the comment section saying craziness and all this it's like, come on guys, let's be smart about it, man. We're having a conversation here. If you believe James Gunn is gonna stick around because he's doing a good job, I don't know what to tell you. That just means we
speaker-1: There's just not a commercial basis for that argument in my mind.
speaker-0: But yeah, remember, if you haven't heard it anywhere else, you heard it here first. And remember to hit that like and subscribe. And thank you for continuing with the Nerd Gym Report. This is obviously the format is gonna change a little bit, but it's for the purposes of getting the news out to you as quickly as we can. Remember to hit that like and subscribe, hit the notification bell, cause we will be spamming. But we'll see you next time with the Nerd Gym Report.
