BLSA rejects Mteto Nyati's interference claims & who owns AI-generated content in South Africa

00:00:00
Speaker 1: Seven two. Stephen's on The Money Show six to eight pm.
00:00:05
Speaker 2: Well confirmation today the Competition Commissions referring the car insurance assessment company Order Text to the competition tribe. You know, they say it's charging smaller companies more for its software. It's been doing it for a while. Order Text provides the software that's a mechanic or an insurance company used to assess what repairs are needed to a vehicle and sort of manages some of the costs of that. Simpewa gome Dee is the lead investigator of the Competition Commission. SIMPEWA good evening, thanks for your time. What do you believe Order Text has actually been doing well?
00:00:34
Speaker 3: I thank you very much Stephen for the invites and good eaving to your listeners as well. I think if somewhere is quite quite well. But if you don't mind me just taking a brief step back, I think the specific provision of the competition next section nine.
00:00:47
Speaker 4: To one A two.
00:00:49
Speaker 3: It's quite important provision because what it does is it specifically singles out SMMs and hdps in relation to discriminatory pricing by bidominant firms such as Auto Texts and so if actively what the Commission found in its investigation and ultimately what we're going to the Tribunal to go and plead is effectively that over a period of about four or five years, Autotics has been charging these discriminatory prices on average per quote to specific assessors as well as to as well as to repair us within the motor vehicle industry. And so as a consequence of that, you know, over the course of our investigation, we found that that specific conduct does contravene this specific provision of the Act, which, amongst other things, seeks to allow smmes and HDPS in particular, to be able to compete quite effectively in the market for the provision of the services that you've already outlined.
00:01:41
Speaker 2: Sim people, I understand why you use the phrase HDPS. You mean, I presume historically at disadvantaged to individual people generally in South Africa. I'll use a more direct phrase, we mean black people and particularly companies that they were running. Is how I understand that. How did auto text? How does it charge companies? So does it work on a on a cost per claim or does it work on a kind of cost per copy of the software? And it was selling the software to different companies at different rates.
00:02:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, no, thanks thanks for the question, Stephen.
00:02:18
Speaker 5: So just that back.
00:02:20
Speaker 3: So HDPS also does cover women as well, so it's not just black black black people as well, so it is all encompassing. But but maybe in terms of the actual conduct and how Auto Texts and what we found autotex conduct to be is that what would effectively happen is that these specific firm's assesses and repairers would purchase packages from Auto Texts, so quotation packages if you will.
00:02:41
Speaker 4: Uh, And they would.
00:02:42
Speaker 3: Obviously determine in terms of their business and in terms of the you know, certain the business how much you know, sort of how much quantity they would effectively need in order to be able to provide the specific services that they would then random and what w then happen is that over the course of the year or particularly trading period, they would then use up that specific package as time would go. So what we've sort of categorized that in the actual papers themselves is what we call im quotation packages, if you will.
00:03:13
Speaker 1: And then you have a.
00:03:14
Speaker 3: Scenario in which, to the extent that an HDP on SMME runs out for example, of that package, but they still do need to provide the service to a customer directly or to ensure. What they would then do is to then purchase outside of the specific package that they have then purchased. What we then found was that in both instances, the respective firms themselves, on average, we're paying far differential pricing, or they were paying different prices, much higher prices than those who did not belong on this as we're saying, specific category of smmes or HDP. So those prices they were paying were far higher. But also they were discriminatory in nature. And that's really the essence of the concern that we were raising. That the prices are discriminatory in nature and they are demately than affecting the ability of these films to compete in the market and participate.
00:04:04
Speaker 2: You must believe that they're deliberately discriminated against smaller players.
00:04:10
Speaker 3: Well, the provision itself is exactly that. But to the extent whether that is indeed the case, the evidence that we've certainly uncovered seems to suggest that is what is happening in the market itself. Although the contravention itself and the provision itself appears to sincerely cater for this specific category of people, so they must then be looked out for and catered for accordingly.
00:04:35
Speaker 2: Okay, I mean the way you've explained it's quite complex. It's not obvious to someone in the business at first glance that this company will be paying more per claim than a bigger company. How did you get to hear about this? I mean, I'm presuming somebody complain, but that person must have known what the practice was at a bigger company and what the practice was for smaller things.
00:04:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, no, So what happened, Stephen, is that part of the part of the powers of the Commission as well is as part of sort of our ordinary course of work, we care about things in the market, definitely, but also we would investigate other sort of consent and complaints. And sometimes what happens is that we do stumble across information as well, and in this specific instance, that information that we'd stumbled across in other previous investigations led us down this path. And so what we did in January was to actually initiate a complaint against autotext, and that's what then instigated the investigation that has now culminated in this referral.
00:05:34
Speaker 2: And presumably they would know this and they would have had a chance to respond, and if there was a perfectly innocent explanation, as you understand it, you would have accepted that.
00:05:44
Speaker 3: No, definitely, I mean, as part of the investigation process, there would obviously have been given an opportunity to explain their conduct and explain their business to us, and we would have considered all of that. But naturally speaking, I mean, that's all in the investigation phase, and so this is another leg which is now going to be in the tribunal where they would then have a further opportunity to do that in front of in front of the tribunal members themselves. Perhaps you know, they might offer different reasons or or they might very well offer offer a different approach. But what we're simply found throughout the investigation, you know, in relation.
00:06:18
Speaker 6: To the smmmes and they should.
00:06:20
Speaker 3: Be that we looked at and the conduct itself as well as obviously some of the engagements that we've had with them, was that this conduct appears to contravene the Competition Act and therefore we've referred this matter to the tribunal.
00:06:30
Speaker 2: Simperiagomenta, thanks so much. I really do appreciate it. Lead Investigator at the Competition Commission. You might be in the industry. Have you heard this happening seven two seven two one seven two Good Money Show with the Well Last week on Friday on the Money Show, you heard the chair of Esciment, tato In Yati, saying he was worried that members of our elite still believed the rules did not apply to them, and he was particularly irritated, I suppose. But what he said were the leadership business Unity Essay and business leadership essay trying to get politicians to influence decisions about whether ESCIM would still control and earn the National Transmission Company of South Africa. It's supposed to manage the national grid today. The head of Business Leadership bus Himo Voso is going to respond with humor also is on hold. But first it's just a small portion of what I'm Tati told us on Friday.
00:07:22
Speaker 7: I'm worried when I've got to see that we seem to have forgotten all of that. We're starting to see people that organizations like BUSA, like BLSA, who have been quite vocal about interference of boards and are now actually doing exactly the same thing and asking for political interference when it comes to organizations like ESCOM. We have a board there that is a competent board. We've got a minister in that. In that line, all of these people have come to the conclusion that the best thing to do for now within the National Transmission Company of South Africa is to keep those assets within National Transmission the combine of South Africa and.
00:08:11
Speaker 2: Es Comitoati is speaking to us on Friday that full Into be available as a podcast cost Themavoso is the CEO at Business Leadership South Africa. But the Sea were good evening, anati QUA director. I thought, in naming your organization here, it's CEO, how do you respond to that?
00:08:29
Speaker 8: Stephen good evening, You know, if you're saying in title came across as quite irritated. I'm mutually more irritated, and thank you very much for giving me the opportunity to really exercise my right of reply to the very serious accusations made by Into against PLESA and BUSA. I really could not leave the comments that he made giving an answered because silence would create the impression that his accusations are correct and they are not far from it. It tually in total is at chusing PLSA and go self engaging in the very kind of political interference that we have spent years campaigning against. See goals father to suggest that because we do not simply accept as Comm's position, our advocacy must be driven by other interests rather than the interests of the country. And those are serial saltations. They are unfounded, they are unfair, and they are deeply damaging. And what I find particularly troubling Stiven is that in title deliberately collapses very different concepts into one narrative. He mentions PLSA and busare in the same price as political interference, corruption, lawlessness, morality and business people seeking favors. Those concepts simply do not belong in the same conversation. There is an important difference between political interference and legitimate public advocacy. Political interference would happen behind long thoughts. It involves secret law, beIN asking for favors and by person, covenant and all those things.
00:10:01
Speaker 3: That is not what the lsay does.
00:10:03
Speaker 8: Our advocation is public and is documentarity is published. We have written publicly, we have engaged Parliament publicly, we have engaged the presidentcy publicly, we have explained our position publicly, and whatever we have raised on the issue of the transmission system operator is government stated policy position. We are not asking for anything different, So there is no policy disagreement here. There is one legislative framework. There is one reform path adopted by government. The President reasfended in the State of the Nation Address, the President's reaffended again thereafter. Section thirty four A of the Literacy Regulation Amendment Act requires that the licensed transmission entity controls the network it operates full stop. This is not advocating for a different policy. We are asking ESCORM to implement the policy government has already adopted. So I genuinely don't understand. How is asking government to implement its own publicly adopted policy somehow becomes political interference? And I'm doing that publicly. By the way, as you stated that this is the policy position, you go ahead and implement it. How is that political interference? And what I find particularly troubling is the title's deliberate conflation of legitimate advocacy with political interference. Those are fundamentally two different things, and he knows the difference between the two. So if he is conflating it, he's doing so deliberately. What Bilesa does is exactly the opposit of political interference. What we are doing is exactly how responsible advocacy should operate in a consditional democracy. In title also says that we should have engaged the f comboard. Now tell me still, I really think it has this completely the wrong way around, because if you already have an agreed national policy. And then on the fifteenth of December twenty twenty five, as Common Redepartment announced an implementation approach that departed from that accreed de reform path by proposing the retention of ownership of the transmission assets. This s COM believed there were legitimate operational reasons to depart from settled policy. Then the obligation rests with SCOM to applain that to explain that departure to its shareholders and affected stakeholders. It cannot be the responsibility of stay called us to discover that settled policy has changed, and then ran to ESCOM asking why good governance requires s COM to implement sediled policy. So how is that then a problem? And whose responsibility is it to say, we know we have a gred X, but now we're going to go why why is that? And us been placed on us? Because business it doesn't make sense.
00:12:48
Speaker 2: Okay, So I mean I've heard you. Do you need to just check. I mean, I completely understand everything you've said publicly about this. I can't see how that would be a problem. It's public. Everyone can see, it is transparent. Have you also tried to have a quiet word with the president or the President's people to ensure, for example that the state in the State of the Nation address he spoke about unbundling this from ESCAM. Has there been a different conversation behind closed doors? And just want to make sure that we're on the same set.
00:13:19
Speaker 8: I think that is that the exactly Steven and I was actually going to get to that. That is what I don't understand. This is saying business people are approaching me privately. What is it talking about? Oh who is he talking about? Because again saying that sentence and mentioning BUSA and PLSA in the same sentence, really, you know, leaves an average South African to think that it is BLSA and BUSA is actually doing that. The lack of that we wrote to the president, and remember we wrote a letter to the president after in Jenalar. Steven been very vocal in the public domain. I am on record and for an O two saying that what I expect from the State of the Nation address from the President is that he addresses the issue of the TS. So what Dee and s Comma saying is that government policy or is it as he must terify, we wrote a letter and it came back and actually, but I wrote a letter after having stated it publicly. So this engagement behind closed doors, I therefore don't understand where that actually comes from, because it definitely, you know, he's not talking about PLSA. That's why I'm saying, he's deliberately conflating public policy advocacy to political interference, you know, And I don't know how he actually gets those two wrong. It is deeply unfestiveing and reputationally damaging to make those allocations while mentioning Plesa and Busa in the very same sentence, because as I said, the inevitable public inference is that he's talking about us. And I can say, Stiven without any fear of contradiction, that ples and Bussa has not approached approached him for favors. We have not separated, gone and engaged. Even this committee that has been set up by the President that has missed their dead life and by the way deadline, which are supposed to be the death of April. We have never engaged those people. I cannot tell you today where the work cop that committee is. I don't know what engagements they're having. We have not tried to contact them. He also says that es COME embraces competition, Do they really because the public record suggests otherwise. Es COMB went to court stivin if you remember to challenge licenses that NASA had already granted to Independent and the trity traders, because it argued that those traders would actually take s COM's customers. If es COM genuinely embraces competition, then why seeks to prevent competitors from entering the market. That is a legitimate question. And the bigger issue is that it has actually never been about ESCOM. It is much bigger the work that are we're doing, the advocations that we're making. A bles say, it's much bigger than ESCOM Steven. This is about whether South Africa or US its own reform commitments. Investors make decisions based on political taint. If subtled reforms can simply be rewritten by es commented Dee during implementation, Investor confidences underminded. How is what we're pushing back against now? How is that political interference? And we're pushing back against it publicly. So if integal is generally concerned about integrity, then integrity, by the way, also means faithfully implementing a creed public policy, not rewriting it during implementation. That can be integrity. So the IONSIA is extraordinary. We have been a choose of political interference because we are asking government to implement government's own public stated policy. Really, business has been one of us comestrong as supporters throughout the genera who have recognized their progress and we are not going to keep quiet when they do from legitimate policy.
00:16:44
Speaker 2: I'm going to have to end this. Thank you. We have heard you, I can I can hear your frustration much greater than irritation obviously, But assumab also the CEO business leaders of South Africa, where do you stand on all of this? I mean the issue of influence, intervention implementation of policy? Oh seven two seven oh two one seven O two was assume of Also, thank you the money show the market. Tana Mongreere, portfolio manager at the Old Mutual Investment Group COMMRA on the markets and has been in the electricity sector. Tana, give us a moment. I suppose to look at the long term outlook of one or two things and gold. I mean people are using the phrase range bound, but I just don't see at the moment that gold going back to five thousand. How do you see it.
00:17:29
Speaker 9: Good evening, Steven, and good evening to your listeners.
00:17:33
Speaker 10: Yeah.
00:17:33
Speaker 9: I mean gold has been we've seen we've seen it over the last few weeks, been under a bit of pressure post you know, touching five thousand just before.
00:17:41
Speaker 8: The Middle East East War.
00:17:44
Speaker 9: And I mean in the short term there's going to be a little bit of noise they're chatting out around, you know, the FED being a bit hawkish, and interest rates in the USA, and I think that's just going to create a lot of very bility in the gold price over the short term. But I think if you look over the long term, there are still some structural drivers that should put a floor to the gold price potentially at even at these levels. I mean you're looking at continued buying by central banks predominant in emerging markets, bricks plus under the whole seam AROUNTI dollarization and trying to have their own independence away from the dollar, and then also ETFs for for similar reasons, your political risks, country sanctions, the dollarization in the weekending US driving investment demand for gold over the dollars. So I think there are some still some structural drivers over the long term that puts a floor on the gold price over and above, you know, supply supply constraint. Primary mind supply constraint because it's of an industry where we've not seen a lot of investment perst twenty twenty thirteen.
00:18:50
Speaker 2: And oil, I mean, we were told before the conflict in the Middle East are kind of naturally equilibrium between global supplies. I mean, oil wasn't over supply at the time. I was around sixty sixty five dollars. Now after all of this, it looks to me like we're going to be above seventy dollars for some time.
00:19:10
Speaker 9: I would actually agree with that. I think even on the short term, I think the fall in the oil price is just the market looking out and saying, okay, we probably through the worst in regards to the US Israel Iran war, but you know, it's still going to take some time to read both stocks. Some infrastructure was damaged during this war will take time to rebuild that infrastructure to get the flow of oil back to normal. So I think over the short term you're still going to sive some some price support. You've got China oil imports potentially recovering, and more importantly the strategic patrolling reserve that needs to be rebuilt again. Politically and over the short term that's going to be noise with the midterms coming up and you know where where the Trump administrations would want that oil price to settle. But over the long term, once again, I think, you know, oil above seventy is.
00:20:03
Speaker 11: Yeah.
00:20:04
Speaker 9: I think it's something that we could potentially see again another industry where we've we've had under investment over the past few years, and it will take time to get to those to those to the level where we wal force below seventy over the long term.
00:20:19
Speaker 2: Tana Mangrap, thanks so much, portfolio manager the Old Mutual Investment Group. Just after six thirty The.
00:20:26
Speaker 12: Money Show with Stephen Kretez is brought to you by Absolute Awards. Get double cash back when an African team scores and wins at the FIFA World Cup twenty twenty six courtesy of Visa Pleasers.
00:20:37
Speaker 2: These apply just kind of call it to seven. You'll know, I suppose in a way, it is a tension we're seeing in the middle classes between joe Burg and Cape Town, largely driven by the large number of middle class people have left jo burgen moved to Cape Town. You know how what that's done to Cape Town property prices. Earlier today I did bump into someone I knew who had moved from Joburg to Cape Town, and now it seems that her and her family, from what I understand, have moved back. And it seems, actually this is happening fairly often, that the traffic is not just one way. Jonathan Kochler's the CEO of the Landsdowne Property Group. Jonathan Good evening something that the general perception is that the only real move is people moving from joe Burg to Cape Town. I've come across quite a few people actually recently who've moved the other way. Is this going in both directions?
00:21:26
Speaker 6: H Stephen, Yes, it is. Yeah, we're finding. You know, obviously a lot of people had moved from Johannesburg to Cape Town. A lot of people I think were sort of chasing you know, the the supposed I guess, you know, the better lifestyle, you know, the safer environment, and a lot of them are also taking sort of in terms of what they were getting paid. They were taking a salary you know that was less than they would have got paid in Johannesburg. And they're moving down to Cape Town. You know what, you know what they found, you know, once they hear and you know, we're finding us with a lot of our agents in Cape Town, you know, with guards moving back. Is that? And I'll give you some examples. You know, you can rent a little one bedroom apartment in sort of the Foys area in Johannesburg for six thousand a round and sort of a comparable area in Cape Time, for example, you know, like a Blowberg or like a Somerset West, you're spending between twelve and thirteen thousand around a month for the same one bedroom apartment. You know, so I think the price is double. And then also you know you're not necessarily living mccamp's fair last style. You know, I think a lot of people sort of have, you know, they think they're going to move down to Cape Time, they're going to be on the beach and they're just going to be able to live that last Star, you know, but the reality is they probably quite a long way from the beach, and you know, the living costs are more than double, you know. So I think that's what we're finding quite a lot with our clients at the moment.
00:22:45
Speaker 2: So, I mean, Okay, people have often left Jobig because they think that the problems are insurmountable. What do they come back just because it's cheaper. Are they able to still maybe create a better life with the money they have in then they can in Cape Town? Somehow?
00:23:04
Speaker 6: I think that you can, you know, I think, yeah, you know, I think living in a sort of secure lifestyle of state, or choosing an area that you know is safer than others, and just sort of you know, really accepting what Joebig is and what it isn't you know. I mean I've done the same thing myself. I've been trying to get my wife done to Cape Toon for a couple of years now, you know. But I think we, you know, we took advantage of in the end, we were looking at either buying in Cape Town or buying in Joannesburg. They ended up buying in Johannesburg because I'm a property guy and there was just such value that you could you know, that you could get in Joeberg. And we ended up purchasing a property in Joeberg at sort of forty percent of less of what the market value actually should be. And I think, you know, once we had accepted that we were going to stay in Joeberg, and we sort of worked around the problems that Joeberg has in terms of buying in a secure neighborhood or in a boomed or road, et cetera, et cetera, and you sort of accept where you are. I think you could really enjoy it.
00:24:02
Speaker 2: So I mean, this is the other thing, is that, for I suppose in terms of Cape town terms not a lot of money. I put that very carefully. You can buy yourself out of some of Joeberg's problems. And you see that, you see evidence of that, and all sorts of neighborhoods in joe Burg now.
00:24:19
Speaker 6: One hundred percent, I mean yeah, And also you know the problems, the problems in Droeberg are not isolated to Johannesburg. I mean I had an agent of mine, you know, in the in the Macassa sort of area the other day who came off the highway and got hijacked on on the side of the on the side of the off ramp, you know. So I think that Cape Town also has similar challenges, you know, and you need to sort of be aware whether you're living in Droeberg or in Cape Town. And in my view, you know, the Johannesburg property market at the moment, I'd say it's about thirty five percent and the value, I mean, we are going to sort of need some sentiment certating some infrastructure being being put in.
00:25:03
Speaker 13: You know.
00:25:03
Speaker 6: But yeah, I was saying the other day, you know, if you have a look at Legos, Legos is a great example. Legos lacks the infrastructure similar to Johannesburg, you know, but the property pricess keep going up. And I think some of that a sort of supply and demand, but I think more of it is that the people who are living there have just accepted legas is where it is. And I think a lot of Johannesburg as well.
00:25:33
Speaker 9: You know.
00:25:33
Speaker 6: I think the people that would have moved to Capelan would have moved, and the people would have stayed have said, Okay, we realize that it has its issues, you know, and have accepted to stay because of it.
00:25:45
Speaker 2: I know, Jonathan, that people in your game, and I don't mean to be rude, but you want to talk up Jerburg. I get it. You have an interest. Is there objective evidence that house prices in Jerburg are moving?
00:25:57
Speaker 6: Listen, I think yeah, I mean we've we've got I mean, I'm actually sitting in Cape Town now, you know, We've got offices in Johannesburg and Cape Town, you know.
00:26:06
Speaker 1: So you know, like although although the.
00:26:09
Speaker 6: Cape Toon property market, you know, cap On property market is doing really really well, you know, we sort of take advantage of that, you know, but we've seen we've seen a big shift in movement, specifically in viewings, you know. So yeah, you know, with a sort of interest rates sort of on the way down. Now they've sort of halted, you know, with the war in Iran, and they're sort of maybe on the way up again, you know, but you know, the interest is definitely improved and we are starting to do more sales.
00:26:38
Speaker 4: You know.
00:26:39
Speaker 6: Is there capital appreciation in the market, you know, I think that's yet to be seen, but I would I would definitely rather personally buy in a depressed property market where the fundamentals of people moving into Heartening all the time. Everyone always talks about how many people are moving to the Western Cape. If you compare it to how many people are moving to Hearten, much more families are moving to Harping than the Western Cape. And I would prefer to buy in Johannesburg at the bottom end of the market, where the market fundamentals of people going in there are good, and you know, Land is getting less and less, you know, so the demand is going to get more and more and that should drove the capital appreciation, rather than buying in Cape Town where you know that we've just had capital appreciation of depreciation of depreciation, and my my perspective, the market's sort of at the top. And do you purchase as a local at the top? I wouldn't do it.
00:27:33
Speaker 2: Jonathan Coakla, thanks so much to see the Lansdowne Property Group your experience please Cape down and Joe Burg oh seven two seven two one seven o two Stephen the gomax.
00:27:45
Speaker 4: At at Stephen krutz Well.
00:27:48
Speaker 2: Parliament moving ahead with plans to legally recognize the difference between vaping and normal cigarettes part of the Tobacco Products an Electronic Delivery Systems bill that's still going through Parliament call it the Ego Bill between us. I know everyone has their own view on smoking. Obviously, we know that nicotine is incredibly addictive, whether you take it through cigarettes or whether you take it through vaping. SOFISO Skin Johanna is a managing director of ESG Analytics of FISO. Good Evening. Okay, we know the size and scale of the tobacco industry. We know you can't just make tobacco illegal. That would never work from an economic perspective. How should a society like ours go about regulating cigarettes, vaping and the whole question of tobacco because it is a massive industry and at some point you need to make sure the economics work for society as a whole if you can.
00:28:40
Speaker 5: Oh, Good Evening, Steward and of course the listeners at home. I think there are a number of lenses towards to look at a regulatory policy framework for tobacco consumption and the contes of South Africa. I think on the first I think we'll look thrillings of public health policy and so we're all the harmful effects of cigarettes, not only to the people who smoke, but also those who do basic in hand smoking as well as of course the cost on our public health from a fiscal point of view, and so it's a recognition of harm, and so harm certainly I think is an important part that they must be recognized and handsome. It becomes the impetus through which we will build a framework through which then to minimize harm. I think once that is set up an understanding, then the definitions are on harm and then you start to understand the levels of harm that each product is then in essence attributed to. And I think when you look at the World World Health Organization guidelines specifically on their tobacco control Article fourteen, they talk about cessation, which in essence even speaks to that one. Of course, the first call is to quit smoking. Second call is that if you can't quit, then move to less harmful products, and that's the process association. And I think it's then understanding that, from a regulatory point of view, is that not all products are created equal, and so then you've got your regulatory framework's going to be responsible to that not all harms equal. And I think that level of understanding of that differentiation in the tobacco products itself, I think becomes useful than in also supporting those who are trying to transition out of toberco consumption.
00:30:32
Speaker 2: So one of the things you could consider then is if you accept and I realized the science on this is still a little bit contested, so I treed a bit carefully, and doctors will say don't do either of them. But if you assume, for the sake of this conversation that vaping is much less dangerous than traditional cigarettes, and I understand the evidence as it is, it would be rational as a government to try and make vaping much cheaper and smoking cigarettes much more expensive. I mean that would be a rational thing to do, wouldn't it.
00:31:03
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean I.
00:31:03
Speaker 5: Think if you know, if it was linear. But I think I think that's that's the one thing Steven, and I mean it's a fair point that's really I think being brought into a lot of the public consultations is that then if cigarettes are one we're trying to dissuade people from consumption or particularly burn based products, because I think that's particularly at the burn levels when you really activate, they can and the most harmfully effects of an equantine. If then you're saying that for a person who might not be able to immediately stop cigarettes then made transition into a non burned product lack of vape for example. Then that must be also democratized in a way in which then it does support the cessation, support the transition out of more harmful tobacco product into a lass armful and so in the economics have to be designed in such a way that one the way we think about our taxation Raisin, well, when we thinking about xis tax, is that that tax has got to recognize differentiation first and foremost, and that not all nicotine products are the same as well as then it must be at least sufficiently conducive to support the cessation where people then can move out of more harmful products. And perhaps right as you're saying, is that will be prenaitive on the more harmful products, so that you actually can see the benefits of people then moving and transitioning out of more harmful conteine products.
00:32:38
Speaker 2: And in the meantime that's all in the sort of rational world of economics. But you have to accept South Africa as it is and know there is just no way the state is ever going to have the power in the foreseeable future to stop every sposorshop selling single cigarettes it's just not going to happen. You're trying to change long term generation habits of people, so you have to be very understanding of that as well. So you have to be a little bit political. And it's the art of the possible. And that makes all of this a lot harder than it really should be, because the illicit industry is just so big.
00:33:15
Speaker 5: Well, it's it's a massive challenge steven through multiple lensers. I mean, so that Africa is the only country in the world when ilicitly created cigarette outsold and over the counter legal cigarette, and and that's just an absolutely incredible statistics. And I think, you know, we're seeing numbers that now potentially up to sixty percent or whatever's in the markets potentially go into some listed market in one shape or form. And so I think that's really I think giving you a sense of of scale of that of that, and I think the coordinated effort here from you know, how we manage goods that come into our ports, how we manage you know, a lot of the developments that they have been pushed for in the around tagging. For example, East Africa has gotten that writer on being able to track one cigarette all the way from source to consumer, and so I think a lot of the tagging has got to be some of the things that really start to come through so that you actually are able to meaningfully track. It's almost like in diamonds, the Kimberley process, Steven, you know, to ensure that we don't use diamonds for for for funding wars and all of those things. And I think it's the same that we must really you know, really double click on, particularly from an unlested point of view. I mean, we saw last week this past weekend, the mayor of Lacetti Community's house being burnt down and Lisadi Stephen Remember is where I think British American Tobacco had their manufacturing facility that they said they were shutting down, And in fact we had been in Lea Citi Community talking specifically, not specifically with Czigers. Actually we're talking about the district development model that they see promulgated that and that you've got a lot of these small towns that have got these large anchor businesses. So you had Clover in Lutenburg, you had you know, Beaty, etcetera. So you've got to look also around the economics of anchor companies. In these small towns and make sure that then they also don't face negative economic outcomes on the back of a growing lesson market. And so these are some of the things because the kind of ripple effect that it can have unsustainable livelihoods and communities, I think has also quite messed up.
00:35:32
Speaker 2: Sosa, thanks so much. Really appreciate savisask and Johanna incredibly thoughtful on this issue. The managing director at ESG Analytics, you at the Money Show at seven o'clock The.
00:35:41
Speaker 12: Money Show on seven Monday till Friday six to APM.
00:35:46
Speaker 2: I see tenn cospon Care thereas the new chair of the National Lotteries Commission, and I remember speaking to him during his time at the Competition Commission quite a long time ago now and he takes over from Bonnie Patiana who was the chair, retired with a couple of years left into his term. But I remember Barni Patiana about a year ago, maybe a little bit longer, speaking to Bonghani Bingua on Radio seven or two on the Breakfast Show and just talking about how difficult it was to reform the National Lotteries Commission and so much had happened there before Patiana and his team and the board he was with took over. But I was really surprised when Patiana's told Bonghani that and how difficult it was, and it seemed to me that there are really big issues there. So I wonder what kind of shape it's in now. We might try and see if we can get an interview with timber and Corsi bonic Ken, and he's not new to the Commission. He's been a commission already at the National Lotteries Commission sort of been part of it. So I think that's going to be an interesting conversation. We'll try and see if we're able to speak to him in the next couple of days. You might need to get his foot under the desk, his feet under the disk first, but I think there might be an interesting conversation there. Just on eleven after seven.
00:36:55
Speaker 4: No Money Show with ste.
00:36:58
Speaker 2: So one of the strange conversations I think that might consume humans at some point in the near future. I suppose there's about the copyright of content that is created with AI. So for example, if I prompted an AI engine to write a song based on the personal history of Donald Trump, I have no doubt that AI could create a song at the end of it, but who would own it? And if I owned it, would that mean that other songs created with the same engine from the same prompts by AI would be my copyright too, would I be? I mean, where does it end? And I think this is when it's going to get quite complicated and there'll be consequences in lots of different directions. Young Famulian is the editor with my broadband. He's been looking at this, Young, Good Evening. I think that's going to be a big issue in the future. What does the law seem to say at the moment? And I suppose I should say seem to say, because I don't think there've actually been judgments on this in our law.
00:37:54
Speaker 1: Yet, Good Evening, Yes, And that's of course a very important thing to highlight. Is the laws really only as good as the cases that get tested with it, and there haven't been an awful light So yeah. But the legal commentary from Rycro's irons, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, is that under South African copyright law, at least, the things look pretty clear cut. The person who makes the prompt owns the copyright at the end of the day, and so under South African law, at least it seems to be fairly clear cut, but it's not the case internationally. But yeah, there's a whole lot of unanswered questions here. So even though things seem pretty clear cut in the South African context, there's still I guess, ethical or you know, you know, let's call them ethical questions to ask, which is that these ais are often trained on the content, knowledge, expertise, background of other people and their stuff. And so when you're talking about AI that produce music, that produce writing, that produce video content or images, that's typically been trained on things that other humans have created. And rightly, people around the world, creatives around the world are asking, now, but hangaro a second, if this this thing is producing something in my voice or in my style, and it's been trained on my stuff, should I not be getting some kind of residual from that, Like you would you know, if my if my if my copyrighted content was being used in a different context. So there's there's there's even though, like in terms of ownership of the one specific thing that that that you have created with the AI seems fairly clear cut in South Africa, there's there's other big questions to.
00:39:50
Speaker 2: Ask, doesn't it also lead to other possible complicated motives. So, for example, if you are let's just take any example, if you're Steven and you're in the AI business, and you create large language models and you allow people to use them, you might create a new model let's called it Steven's Music AI, and instead of releasing it to the public, decide, actually, I can make more money by owning the copyright and using the AI to create that music rather than just releasing the AI bot to the public. And all sorts of strange things could happen from there.
00:40:29
Speaker 1: Right, And it all comes down to what's what it's going to come down to. If you try to monetize that music. There's there's certain rules you're going to run up against internationally. But also you know, if your music sounds too similar to other people's stuff, then you're going to run into pushback in that respect. So what keeps you honest at the end of the day is not necessarily the law, but society and you know how accepting they might be to this music that's created, you know, based on somebody else's style or expertise. But if you've created this hypothetical box that can create music that sounds fairly original. Then then yeah, that raises some very interesting gray area questions you know about you know about how this kind of technology can be.
00:41:32
Speaker 2: Used Ian, I've been thinking of some of the other platfalls, and and you know this area better than I do. But let me let me give an example of one that may happen. You may remember, in fact, you'll remember it better than I do. And when the World Wide Web came along and there was an address system, people rushed to take over to own website domain names. I think actually South Africa's domain name at one point was owned by some not very nice person in America and had to go through sorts of processes to get it back. Now, when something let me just call it squatting won't process some of the main squat the domain squatting, someone is going to work out how to do that with AI. So what they'll do is I could have realized last Monday, I'm going to get all the main AI engines to write me songs about Taylor Swift's wedding first mention of Taylor Swift on The Money Show and sometime, and I'm then going to own those songs. So that I've got from all the main engines from and I'm going to get many songs because I'm gonna get I'm going to spend the weekend conceiving of all the different prompts that you could use so that no one else can do it. And I mean all sorts of strange things are about to happen here.
00:42:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the thing there and the number of combinations that that you can that you can have in that context makes that a little impractical. So you will so firstly, its under South African law, you will only own the copyright of the specific song that gets produced with your prompt now, and and uh, I guess there's something to be said for you know, if somebody independently comes up with literally exactly the same prompt, you know what happens then, But that, funny enough, should actually produce a different song because of the way these models work. And so but but yes, I mean, the fact is we we are heading into an error where we are simply going to be flooded with content and the music industry in particular, if you if you listen to some of the commentators on YouTube who are complaining about what's happening in the music industry. It's a huge problem there where there's just been a flood of AI generated content being uploaded to platforms like Spotify and YouTube and and and that's that's caused the massive problem in the industry. But the specific problem that you're highlighting, I don't think that you can necessarily squat on copyright down way, so at least that's not a concern. But there's a host of other.
00:44:10
Speaker 2: Ones, fell and lots more to talk about. Thank you, young famil and editor at my broadband ready to appreciate it. Eighteen minutes after seven, The Money Show, Business Books, twenty minutes after seven. I know for a long time everyone's been telling you the world is a more uncertain place. To put it correctly, it's a less certain place. And you probably heard that phrase the world's becoming more uncertain so often on The Money Show you actually completely bored of it. Completely agree. I do wonder if our ability to deal with uncertainty has also changed well. Today's book is called How to Not Know the Value of Uncertainty in a World that demands answers. It's by Simone stoles Off and Ian Man, the MD at Gateway's Business consultants, has been reading it Ian good evening. He is certainly in front of me. We all want to know what the weather will be tomorrow, which is why I probably already checked tomorrow's forecast about three times today. How does this book advise we deal with that very interesting and quite understandable human phenomenon of wanting to know for sure.
00:45:15
Speaker 10: The way that they look at this say, we want to know for sure. Our brains are designed for prediction. We're a prediction machine. I think that human beings are probably the only animal that really is predictive. You can tell me that animals store food or they hibernate, but that's biological. We actually our minds planned deliberately and we and we get in that way, and that's both a blessing and a curse. The blessing, of course, is that we put in the firebreak, which stops the fire spreading across land. But it also also has downsides. And downsides of that is the anxiety that it creates. We've always been We've always wanted to know more. We had the ancient world, we had oracles, we threw bones, we did all sorts of things just to try. Nowadays, of course, we have experts, and experts are there supposedly to give us the certainty, but there's very good reason to believe that they don't. Somebody like Tetlock. Tetlock teaches at Warton He's done a two decade long study on expertise, and his basic conclusion, in a nutshell is, on average, an expert is about as accurate as a monkey throwing a dart at a dart board.
00:46:25
Speaker 1: Wow.
00:46:26
Speaker 10: So an expert is somebody who tells you this week, why what he told you last week is incorrect? Yes, but we have to live with this stuff anyway, and we're I think we're becoming more more worried about certainty than we ever were before. If you just I think that society and technology has helped create the uncertainty. We always want to know where our kids are. We track things, we track, we track news, we try, we want to try and get some grasp on all of us, and it these things don't help us avoid uncertainty. They just seem to heighten the distress of not knowing.
00:47:01
Speaker 13: And I think that the the the studies have been done that not that anticipating uncertainty or anticipating anything is far more painful than than experience in right now.
00:47:14
Speaker 10: They just this worth giving people shocks. I'll give you a shock right now. And there are a certain amount of tension about getting shocked now, but the tension to wait for the shock was far far more serious. And all the sorts of things that we've had in our lives that try to reduce the stress that we have, like community, like stability, like stable jobs, all those things are going away. And because that, I think we're becoming much more nervous and much more anxious about life than we've ever been before.
00:47:45
Speaker 4: And many there are many.
00:47:46
Speaker 10: Approaches to all of this, and I think what's really nice about this book is that it doesn't say that you can avoid it, but it does give you some tools to deal with this uncertainty, but accepting the fact that nothing short of absolutely so whenever you find people who genuinely believe that they really know what's going on, that's just hubris at play. Modesty will probably be more valuable to you. And when you're when you're modest about the possibilities, what can be and what you can and cannot know, I think you're probably in a better position. You need to accept they were all prisoners of preferences. So whatever preferences we have, they're probably going to lead us in a particular direction.
00:48:29
Speaker 4: That's why there was this.
00:48:30
Speaker 10: In the book, he quotes a man who works for Google and he was looking at at an anonymized telephone called hundreds of thousands of them, and people pretty much do the same things all the time. And he realized how much he was predicted, and so he actually booked an algorithm for himself to find things to do in his spare time that he's never ever done before, to try and build up a few of a capacity to live with uncertainty. In the book, and why this is so particularly valuable, not in this show you what the horrors are, but there are some nice techniques of how to deal with it. A couple of quick ones read there's there's a woman at that quote. She's she used to be a poker player, but she was the equivalent of a gold medal poker play is a gold bracelet. She has a gold bracelet poker play, and she says, you can take it two by four and think of it like this. The y access is how much do you have control or no control? And the second part is are the consequences high or low. That's a cute thing to have you singing in a restaurant. Everybody arounds you're ordering food. You can't make up your mind with you want the pasta with porccini or you want the pizza, And the way that goes around says, what do you have? So look, ask everybody else first, and you agonize over making that decision because you don't want to make the wrong decision. And basically she says, think of it, cross with us. Have you got control?
00:49:54
Speaker 4: Yes?
00:49:55
Speaker 10: The are the consequences serious? Not really no, because next week you won't even remember what eight anyway, So in those situations, do whatever you want. And she says, whenever you have circumstances where were the two things are too close together you can even tell which is better. You probably just been off doing anyone, because it makes a difference. They're both good. You're not saying a great car and allows a car. It's two great cars? Which one should I get? You take the wrong ones? It took one which is a little less less perfect than the other one.
00:50:22
Speaker 2: So ian is one of the issues, actually that we have too much information and far more choice than we ever had.
00:50:29
Speaker 10: Undoubtedly, undoubtedly I think that when your life was, when you when your job was more stable, when your community was more stable, when you when people all worshiped together, life was and it's just gotten worse and worse. And because of that, we feel we need to know how not to know. And I think that the real value of this book is that he's got a lot of really good ideas about how what to do in a situation where you cannot know.
00:50:55
Speaker 2: It seems then, one of the real things that's changed in human life over the last one hundred and fifty year, and probably are companies, not just communication and technology, but moving into cities, is that we've become less tolerant of uncertainty.
00:51:09
Speaker 10: I think that that's true, and I think the intolerance of uncertainty has been heightened because we can see the consequences of so much more severe. There obviously are things you can do, and we do this in business and when you invest in the stock exchange of kill criteria stop losses, so if it gets too good, I'll stop, because trees don't grow to the sky, so I'll sell. But there's also in life in general. The most famous stop stop loss is if you put a lot of money in effort going up Mount Everest and you're you can see the top, and there's been years worth and tens of thousands of dollars, and it's two o'clock in the afternoon. You come straight down and just waste all your money, because if you don't go down at two o'clock, you will die, Yes, because you won't get down before we stop losses of very very good things. If you can remember the gambler gambler somewhere, you're going to know when to hold them, You're going to know where to fold them, you're going to when to walk away, and you know when to run.
00:52:13
Speaker 4: I think that's pretty good advice.
00:52:15
Speaker 2: Yean man, thank you very much, indeed really appreciated, the managing director of Gateways Business Consultants. The book is called How to Not Know the Value of Uncertainty in a World that demands answers, as by Simone stoles Off twenty eight minutes after seven.
00:52:29
Speaker 4: How Money Show, How I Make My Money?
00:52:33
Speaker 2: Twenty five minutes now to eight the time. Well, I'm sure you've had the experience of taking your car into a mechanic and leaving it there, and you might wonder what on earth goes on to the car while you're not there. Why does it take so long? And then some very interesting questions follow from that. Or some cars easier to fix than others, are some more expensive after the warranties expired than others, you know, things like that, and we thought this might make an interesting question. So see Sambanca is the president of the African Panel Beaters and Motor Mechanics Association. It's been in the street. He's not going to tell you how many years, but a long time. And he's in our studio now. SE's so good evening. It's really good to meet you, and thanks so much for coming in good even goodness diving listeners as well. So I think we've all had the experience of dropping our car off at a mechanic or a panel beater and we're told come and fetch it tomorrow or in a week's time. And I can hear out in the yard there's banging and there's crashing. I can see legs coming out from underneath the car, but I don't know what's going on. What on earth is going on behind the counter and in thet.
00:53:43
Speaker 11: Yeah yes to customers, or it's always looked like simple yeah, because they want to see their cars back in the road because obviously no one wants to see the car staying in the workshop because they enjoyed it. Buy cars for there is it, but there is a lot that is happening in there, as you correctly put it, because you might just think that it's a it's a minor thing because you've seen problems.
00:54:08
Speaker 4: The car is just checked. You don't know what had happened.
00:54:11
Speaker 11: And then upoon diagnosing because when the car gets into the workshop, it gets tagnosed. Or your first thing the you get to the reception, the administrate or open a job card and give it over to the technician to diagnose your vehicle. And then after diagnosing, because these days were no longer technosed by just listening to the sound.
00:54:33
Speaker 4: Of the vehicle.
00:54:33
Speaker 2: You can't just smell.
00:54:35
Speaker 11: You have to use the latest technology, the scanning and your scan and then then it tells exectly what's the problem. And after then that you you you you look to create a quotation and then you give it to the customer. The customer then has to approve the quotation.
00:54:52
Speaker 2: They usually lose their mind at that point.
00:54:54
Speaker 11: Yes, you you don't have you can't start working on the vehicle if you have to make sure that the customer it gives you a go ahead, because if you just touch the car without giving a customer the quotation, and then it will sell as a problem.
00:55:08
Speaker 4: Then you know the story.
00:55:10
Speaker 11: Then now the prices are very high, the quotation will be high, and then then once the customer gives a quihad, then you start now sourcing the paths and the space, which is another challenge of its own.
00:55:23
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm going to come to that, because I'm sure that's one of the reasons there's a delay. Is there a particular kind of problem that you end up fixing more often than anything else. Is there a gearbox in a particular car.
00:55:37
Speaker 4: Or normally is an engine?
00:55:40
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, because people they keep servicing, they don't change oil in time, they don't do that, and then then it afflects the engine. Yes, the gear box you do get, but seldomly, but most of the time when the car goes there, then you see one hundreds of twenty cars inside the workshop, they most likely having an engine problem. Then they have to be overhauled. You have to slip the cylinder head and all those.
00:56:05
Speaker 2: Things, and would often they be something that could have been prevented with proper maintenance.
00:56:11
Speaker 11: Yes, it could be prevented if its just a car has been service on time, because we'll pick it up. Because when the car goes for the service, making it all change and the spot plants and everything. You also put in the tachnostic scale so you can and even the mileage you will tell you then that now at this mileage you need to change the head cascade, at this milage you need to change thermostade or whatever inside the car. Then it can be prevented. But then, yeah, cost of living is too high. People they don't want to believe this.
00:56:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, is there a particular model of car that you're likely to see at a mechanics shop. Most of it not necessarily because there's a problem with that car, just because there's so many of them. So I would think, for example, the the earlier, so the older VW Polos, because there's so many of them, maybe in five years might be all Suzuki Swift. So I don't know. Is it a Polo that you that you end up fixing your stuff?
00:57:06
Speaker 11: Yeahs they are the they are the I mean the young chaps or youth they like that car.
00:57:13
Speaker 4: I think, I don't know.
00:57:14
Speaker 11: Maybe it's cost effective as well, and so it's easy to fix as well because the past are always readily available. You don't struggle to get the past like these other new cars that just come into the into the market.
00:57:27
Speaker 2: So Chinese cars in particular.
00:57:29
Speaker 11: Cars particularly, yes, yes, yes you struggle and in times you have to import the paths. You can't find the past locally. But at least they have improved a bit. Now you do get most of the paths in the country. But yeah, there would be those pasts that they are there there in back order. You have to wait maybe two or three weeks or even a month waiting for the paths.
00:57:53
Speaker 2: Are some cars easier to work on than others? I mean, are there some models where when you see it you just think as it comes and you think, oh no, and are there is someone you think, ah, yes, this is going to be easier. I can get the young guys.
00:58:07
Speaker 11: Just ws and the Toyotas, you know, because that they've been in the country for a long time. And then yeah, when you see the Alpha Romeos and you see your Volvos, that yeah, stretching your head because yeah.
00:58:21
Speaker 2: So I mean Volvos and Romeo, the Italian car Italian cars. Yes, yes, yes, yeah, so okay, our customer is always honest about what's wrong with their cars.
00:58:35
Speaker 11: Not always problem because in most customers they don't they know nothing about the cars, but they know how to drive the cars. They but they are those that would mislead you. I wouldn't tell you that they've taken a car into another workshop and what was Yeah, so they always tried to make a short cut or something.
00:58:56
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:58:57
Speaker 2: So I mean this is the problem is that you might think, well, this car has been treated in a particular way, but hasn't. And then when you say to the owner, you know, I don't think you're being honest with me. They must get very cross. Some owners must be a little difficult with their card.
00:59:10
Speaker 4: Definitely.
00:59:10
Speaker 11: They always like to pay to to make you feel bad as if you don't know what you are doing. Yeah, they will, they will hide and they I mean it's good for them. I think it's a matter of advice because of on air that I mean, it's it's like any any any any any any profession. If you go to the doctor, you must be honest. If you go to the lawyer, you must be honest and tell the lawyer that I've committed this kind of an offense, so that can be advised accordingly. But I mean, I think they always have this thing that if they tell you, but even if they don't tell you, we've had a good mechan you could end up picking it.
00:59:46
Speaker 4: You end up picking it up at the later stage.
00:59:48
Speaker 11: So so it's best and that they tell you about the history of the car, because it makes it easy if a customer becomes honest and gives you the history of the vehicle, what does happened before? But then now if you have to start that closing and finding it yourself, probably long.
01:00:04
Speaker 2: I do want to talk a little bit about the money and how all of that works. And Keith, in fact is called us from Athel And here's a question about that. Keith, you have a question about the rate per hour? Go for it.
01:00:17
Speaker 14: Yeah, Hi, Stephen, how's your guest? Just two questions. When I'm servicing or repairing a car, I'm just trying to understand what a reasonable rate is in terms of labor and hourly labor cost, as well as a reasonable markup on the new parts or replacements spare parts that they do when they service or replace.
01:00:41
Speaker 2: Keith, Thanks very much. I really appreciate that actually, because I think you're getting into the heart of the question. So CISA, I mean a labor cost, how do you work that out? Because you will have a junior mechanic out presume you might have a very specialized technician. Sometimes the owner might have to work on it. How do you work that out?
01:00:59
Speaker 13: Yeah?
01:00:59
Speaker 11: You it depends from workshop to workshop. Because you know it's South Africa. The competition commission up to do the price fixing. The people they charge from seven hundred per hour seven fifty dealerships living far more than thousand rands. So so yeah, I mean I think it's determined by the by your by your course as well.
01:01:22
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you need.
01:01:23
Speaker 2: To be explicit about that. Eh, this is what this is what we charge. This isn't the quote?
01:01:28
Speaker 11: Definitely when they when when you do the condition it shows the price for for for spares or parts.
01:01:35
Speaker 4: It also shows the labor costs pay hour.
01:01:38
Speaker 2: When you start a mechanics shop and people don't know you do you have to try and charge less for your labor. Is that how you get into the market and get customers? Yeah, yeah, you do.
01:01:49
Speaker 11: You do charge customers, I mean even if they negotiate for discounts. You cut a beat in your labor because you don't you don't benefiture pass.
01:01:58
Speaker 4: You have to go and buy a pass.
01:02:00
Speaker 11: And then he asked a good question in terms of the markup. Yes, also it depends. Yeah, normally it's about thirty percent or so. But yeah, when he said the new part, I don't know because mostly after market we used after market space as well, But yeah, it depends what do you deal with it as well?
01:02:19
Speaker 2: So I mean I presume it's also about the cost of the party. I mean, if it's just a spark plug, thirty percent is fine, but the people does anyone still use the spark bag anymore? But if it's a bigger thing, if you had to actually order a yearbox for.
01:02:34
Speaker 11: Yeah, fourteen and you know, then you have to go down ten percent, fifteen, twenty percent as well, because mostly the makeup is also just you're right, it's determined that. But I mean you're charging more of your time and going out and sourcing out the space, you know, because it can take you even the whole day looking for parts and space because you go from from space to space. Yeah, so that's what you're as charging. It's not that you want to make profit on and space.
01:03:01
Speaker 2: So the markup for parts is often actually about your time, about your.
01:03:05
Speaker 4: Time and look for space.
01:03:08
Speaker 11: I remember the time I had a workshop in del maas I ended I was looking for some part. Imagine that I drove around del Mas been only up until in Cultonville.
01:03:20
Speaker 15: I ended up finding that part in Kultinville. Sure it's time and fuel. A few years ago. At the time, I was driving a very different car to what I'm driving now. I didn't have children, et cetera. And so I was driving a car that would get dropped off at all sorts of mechanics on a regular basis to be fixed. And I went to go and fetch it.
01:03:39
Speaker 2: And when I got it, and I was waiting at the counter, there was a woman about my age then, so thirty ish in front of me, and she was being dealt with first, and she said to the guy she was getting her car, and she said, okay, can I just see the invoice of the new parts? And she went through it, and then she looked at all the new parts and she said, I would like to see the old and she pointed to one of the parts that had been taken out. She said, my boyfriend suggested that I just pick one at random. I want to see that you took it out of my car and replaced it. I want to see the old one and that. I mean, I kind of laughed, but I also thought it was good advice. But it also gets so much deeper question because it seems to me, for some reason, a lot of people don't trust mechanics, and I don't know why, because I don't think I've been treated badly by mechanics. I don't think people have. I mean, I haven't always got the results I wanted, and it's often been a lot more expensive than I wanted. But I mean, that's life. Why do you think that is?
01:04:43
Speaker 11: Yeah, probably it's the experience and probably to once happened to few people by some unscrupulous business people, and then it just spread like wildfire. So I always advise my member that you must keep the old parts. You must always show the customers that these are the paths that they came from your vehicle. Then he or she decides whether to take them with or to leave the workshop. Because yeah, unfortunately it's just been like that, especially for us that they work mostly in the township. Environment and Environmedia are not trusty, so we have to work very hard so as to prove ourselves.
01:05:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, so when you're starting, and you talked about having to be cheaper than other people, how do you actually start a mechanic shop? Because people have reputations. You know, if I have a problem with my car and I'm round a Brye on a Saturday, I will often mention it to a friend and they'll say, oh, this person or this person helped me. Or on the street WhatsApp group, someone will recommend a mechanic and I'll go to a mechanic because I've heard about them from someone I know. So you've got to build that up. How do you start?
01:05:59
Speaker 4: You you have to.
01:06:00
Speaker 11: Build yourself your name, not necessarily by cutting yourself in lee By as part of the strategies of attracting customers.
01:06:09
Speaker 4: But you have you said.
01:06:12
Speaker 11: Refized as I said, it's like another profession. Yeah, even if you've got a case to ask you a good lawyer, then it's gonna be word of mark, who's the good doctor.
01:06:20
Speaker 4: But then you you you you advertise yourself.
01:06:23
Speaker 11: You social media and uh and yeah, the word of mouth, and you must prove yourself and you must do what other people don't do You must work like professionally, honest and yeah.
01:06:37
Speaker 2: And when someone starts do they usually start by working for someone else? Yes, yes, that's where you learn everything.
01:06:45
Speaker 11: Mostly mostly are they start from that, that's how they lend the skill or and then they start opening the workshops. But they are those like myself who doesn't have a technical background, who's just our probably for the lack of I'm are I just like the Indus. And then I studied the workshop, and then you get the guys who employed the cars. And then yeah, you talk to the people, you develop all sorts of marketing material.
01:07:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and the qualifications now I know, you know for different cars, for example, newer cars, you'll often have to be qualified by the company that makes the car. There'll be all sorts of systems that people do it. But a lot of people will I'm sure, be working as mechanics. Maybe they'll have their own shop, maybe they'll be on the side of the road. What kind of qualification would someone working in that space have? Might they not have a qualification at all, but actually know everything they need to know because I've been working on cars a long time.
01:07:39
Speaker 11: Yeah, Yeah, it's like in you it's a self thought working with other mechanics. And because I will tell you that it was even the guys that are qualified if you go to the current centers that the trained mechanics, these these the type of.
01:07:57
Speaker 4: The type of locals are.
01:08:00
Speaker 11: They're given within those technical securities not eleven to the vehicles that are on the road now. So you have to work as an apprentice or as a lea Lena Sheep doesn't understand it to they qualified makinnic that properly has worked within the tailership or wherever you know.
01:08:18
Speaker 4: Then that's how we teach all us.
01:08:21
Speaker 2: You're with the Manesia how I make my money. We're talking about the business, so fixing our car. Season Banker is the present of the African Panel Beaters and Motor Mechanics Association, being in the industry a long time. It's ten minute state.
01:08:34
Speaker 12: The Money Show with Stephen Croutez is brought to you by Absolute Rewards. Get double cash back when an African team scores and wins at the fee for World Cup twenty twenty six courtesy of Visa Teesus.
01:08:46
Speaker 2: He's apply eight minutes now to eight the time. Seem Banker is the present of the African Panel Beaters and Motor Mechanics Association, How I make my money. We're talking about the business of car repairing. A CCU spoke about how cars have changed and there are a lot more technical, there are a lot more electronic. Now, does that make them harder to fix?
01:09:09
Speaker 4: Actually, it makes it.
01:09:10
Speaker 11: It makes it spoke, It's harder if you don't have the latest technology. It's hard that if you don't have the technology.
01:09:21
Speaker 4: But if you have the.
01:09:23
Speaker 11: Technology or the tools and the equipment, it becomes easy. Because if you've got the skin can point to directly. Won't be fine at finding way is the fault. But yeah, because of now the cost of having dolls lettist technology is very high.
01:09:39
Speaker 4: Then it makes it difficult.
01:09:40
Speaker 2: At the same time, so does that mean then it is harder for someone to start their own shop then it was twenty years ago because you need a lot more.
01:09:49
Speaker 11: So it's absolutely expensive now to have just the basic mechanical look shop at the mouth of something like five hundred thousand.
01:09:58
Speaker 2: Sure, and they'll take a long time if you're repairing ten cars a week to get that back.
01:10:05
Speaker 4: Yeah, and depending in your client piece.
01:10:08
Speaker 11: And remember we are still operating under the monopoly that is currently happy the way, although we want the case of the Competition Commissione a few years ago, which is called the right to repair then but they still it's not implemented yet. So then if you are you've got access or you market off the insurance companies and defleated you, you'll recover those costs very quick. But if you rely from the individuals would not have service players and warranties.
01:10:40
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's going to be a moment task.
01:10:43
Speaker 2: You mentioned the insurance companies and they obviously will refer a lot of business. So if Steven's in an accident or goes to the insurance company, the insurance company will often say to Stephen, this is where you need to get to have it fixed. How does that work? Because that contry make or break a company.
01:11:02
Speaker 11: Yeah, it's supposed to be then that the consumer has to choose a where to go and repair his vehicles because you will always know one panel picture that is good somewhere. And then the guidelines that it developed in twenty twenty and publishing twenty twenty one, they were supposed to do away with the panels insurance panels, but they are still there.
01:11:27
Speaker 4: So yeah, then they still direct.
01:11:30
Speaker 11: You know they did, but yeah, if you didn't, even if you it so happened that you decided to take it to season, they would make you sign some kind of indemnity form. So but yeah, we still hope then that the word's gonna go out there.
01:11:44
Speaker 4: Upmar brought that in South Africa.
01:11:47
Speaker 11: But then because UPMAR is one of the not so privileged associations that don't have match resources. So it's difficult to to tell the people because it's the consumers that have to decide what to do.
01:11:59
Speaker 2: How do they ensure companies decide who gets that business.
01:12:03
Speaker 11: Yeah, they decide on the on the problem on the radios, and they also on the relationships because it's about the relationships that they form within the golf courses there. Yeah, so so yeah, I'm not quite sure, but they've got the assessors and they've got relationships.
01:12:21
Speaker 4: Said, do not mention names.
01:12:23
Speaker 11: But if you are around, said, you've got a big workshow up here, and then you've been around for many times and they've got two truckers, So these guys have got it's sort of a catchier where then they know that they told the assess and they repair. So then if you're out of that space. It's difficult for you. If you're Alexander and soetto, you're inance on cockold. So those are the things that we are still trying to work hard to make sure that will revert it and then the industry gets transformed.
01:12:50
Speaker 2: At the moment, there's a huge amount of business, I would think, because nine cars on the roads are driven by by petrolo diesel and they need to be serviced and when people don't service them, they have to come to you. There are a lot more electric cars coming and it may not be this year, but at some point they will come and they need a lot less servicing. Now, I'm sure there'll be a servicing. You know, we'll work out what they need. But that must worry you. I mean, if you're a young person going into your industry now, it may not be such a good move. There may not be so much business.
01:13:24
Speaker 11: Yeah, especially on the mechanical side, you know then at least, but on the body side is still there big kind of it. So it was actually at least yeah, yeah, but yeah, we are still trying to find out. We were working very close with the Dequalders that are involved in that into city tow can we probably diversify and ensure that we benefit on the evy space as well electric vehicles.
01:13:47
Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things about being a mechanical I think, I mean, I just work with words for a living, but to see a car come in and to fix it and to hear it working properly again, and because it's one of those professions where you know if you've done something right, and you know if you've done something wrong, you don't have to wait and see. Yes, you know when the owner is driving it out that you've got it right. That must be quite rewarding.
01:14:13
Speaker 11: Yeah, yeah, very very Yeah, it makes you feel great and just live very well. I mean, if there's this one car that is giving you, is getting fixed properly, is giving night mess, because one thing that you want is to come back, because it's like you'll enjoy the money to be there tomorrow the customer comes back again and say, hey, my car hasn't been fixed properly.
01:14:33
Speaker 4: You have to pay pack that customer or whatever. You know.
01:14:36
Speaker 11: Yeah, so yeah, it is wording to fix the car and see the client hippy.
01:14:43
Speaker 2: Caesa, thank you very much. Indeed, it's been really great talking to you. I really really enjoyed its se Sam Bankra is the president of the African Panel Beaters and Most Mechanics Association. Once you start talking about cars, you can go forever. Really, thank you, Caesa, thanks so much for coming in