A 47-Year-Old Disappearance Finally Solved! The Story Of Steven Kubacki

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Hey there, folks.
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Well, in this video, I'm happy to announce that we
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will put an end to a mysterious disappearance that occurred
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over forty seven years ago. Finally, in a case which
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has been speculated about for decades, a case where the
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paranormal was often considered the prime suspect, we will get answers.
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I am, of course, speaking of the disappearance of Stephen Kubaki.
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Stephen has released a book explaining his disappearance, and he
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granted me the honor of being the first to talk
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to him about what happened and why it happened. It's
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a good thing to finally be able to put this
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one to bed. I mean, countless articles, books, videos, and
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media have been made on this one disappearance because of
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how anomalous it seems. It's quite rare for us to
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finally get the full story for something like this. Before
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we get into the explanation of the disappearance, I thought
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it would be best to quickly explain the story of
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Stephen Kubacki and what happened on a frozen lake, Michigan
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back in nineteen seventy eight. Stephen Kubacki grew up in
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South Deerfield, Massachusetts, with his mother Irene, father John, and
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brother John Jr. Early on in his youth, it became
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apparent that Stephen had quite an intellect, with test scores
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that were off the charts. Despite this, Stephen had a
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rebellious streak, and he often found himself getting into trouble
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or acting out. His family were not wealthy by any means,
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and he had a very blue collar upbringing. That's why
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his parents felt particularly blessed when Stephen was granted a
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full scholarship to the prestigious Deerfield Academy, an elite school
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usually reserved for those with wealth. While there, Stephen couldn't
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help but notice the differences between him and his classmates.
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During the summer, they were on extravagant vacations, while he
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would be working in tobacco fields just to earn enough
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money to afford his school clothing. At the end of
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his tenure at Deerfield, Stephen probably could have had his
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pick of elite higher education institutions, but instead he chose
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Hope College in Holland, Michigan. Something about the school spoke
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to him, as did the general terrain surrounding the town.
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Stephen had always been an avid outdoorsman, between cross country
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skiing and mountain climbing. He was also focused on getting
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into medical school, which Hope College could help him do.
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Once Stephen made it to Michigan, he discovered a new
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form of freedom. He made friends, socialized, and explored the
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surrounding forests, including Lake Michigan. Still he maintained his rebellious nature.
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Stephen's intelligence was evident to his professors, with G. L. Penrose,
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who taught Stephen, saying that he was very intense and
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very very bright. He was intellectually engaged in a number
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of things. He was always intensely involved. He was not
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your average student in terms of intellect. He is much brighter.
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Stephen lived off campus, usually with a roommate. He was
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known for playing dungeons and Dragons, and also for being
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a big Tolkien fan. Eventually, Stephen's interests turned from medicine
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to philosophy in the German language. As luck would have it,
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he received a scholarship to study abroad in his junior year,
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and so he picked the University of Freiburg in Germany.
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He spent a year there, where he studied various topics,
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including Jungian psychology, and even parapsychology. By nineteen seventy eight,
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Stephen was back at Hope College and doing the usual
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college routine. His parents had separated and were no longer
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living again. He was a twenty three year old man
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who was only nine credit hours away from graduating. With
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such a bright future ahead of him. No one could
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have imagined that he could or would disappear so suddenly.
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When the day of February eighteenth, nineteen seventy eight, rolled around,
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it should have simply been a day like any other.
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It was a cold winter's morning with an abundance of
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snow and ice. Only a few weeks prior, Michigan was
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hit by the Great Blizzard of nineteen seventy eight, which
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caused a state of emergency. Stephen would be undeterred by
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all of this. He was an avid cross country skier
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who often went out on the frozen Lake Michigan. In fact,
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he was known for venturing out great distances and taking
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great risks. He left the attic apartment that he shared
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with his roommate that morning, carrying only his skis and
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a backpack. His route of travel was a few miles
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through Holland and onto the beaches of Lake Michigan. Nobody
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was on the lake that morning except him, maybe because
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it was too dangerous or too c As Stephen skied
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out onto the frozen water, it was hard to miss
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the great spires of ice that towered around him. These
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ice sheets had been moving and piling up for weeks
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in order to create the surreal landscape that he slowly
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glided across. As Stephen heads out further into the alien terrain,
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he has stopped suddenly by a strange, anomalous feeling. He
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is calm as he slowly breathes in the frigid air.
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He stares up into the gray, overcast expanse of clouds.
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Something happens there. The sky seems to part, as if
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it were sliced open by some unseen force. There is
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a strange kinetic energy in the air. A strange object
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hovers in the empty void above, or does it. Maybe
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it didn't happen that way, after all, Who knows what
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happened to Stephen Kubacki that day. The only thing the
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public knows is that Stephen went missing. A search for
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him was conducted in the area, but all they found
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was his backpack, skis and ski poles, all were purposefully
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place near the frozen shores of Lake Michigan, Beyond his belongings.
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Stephen left to set of footprints in the snow. They
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led out onto the ice for some two hundred yards
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and then ended abruptly. It appeared as though Stephen vanished
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into thin air. The search would involve helicopters, foot searchers, snowmobiles,
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tracking dogs, and divers who risked their lives searching for
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brakes in the frozen lake ice. Wherever Stephen was, he
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was no longer here. The search was fruitless and eventually
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came to an end after less than a week. Stephen
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was awarded an honorary bachelor's degree in absentia. It was
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accepted by his parents. Many thought that Stephen had been
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swallowed up by a break in the ice, though there
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was nothing near his footprints that suggested it. Still, many
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assumed that his body would show up in the spring
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when the ice would melt. It did not likely nobody
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expected what eventually did happen. Over a year later, on
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May fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Stephen Kubacki woke up in
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a mesa outside Pittsfield, Massachusetts, but he claimed to not
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know where he was or even who he was. He
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was wearing clothes that he didn't recognize and a shirt
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from a marathon in Wisconsin. He had a backpack nearby
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with clothes, equipment, maps, and eyeglasses inside. When he reached
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the town of Pittsfield, he stopped to look at the
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date on a newspaper, and a whole host of memories
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came flooding back to him. He remembered that he was
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Stephen Kubacki, and he knew he had a relative who
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lived only a short distance away from there. Stephen would
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make contact with his aunt and subsequently his parents. The
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media descended on the homecoming event like vultures seeking to
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pick apart in the mystery behind Stephen's anomalist returned to
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the land of the living, but Stephen told them that
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he didn't know what happened. He had amnesia. Whatever had
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happened in the past fourteen months or so, Stephen said
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he couldn't remember any of it. The answers that everyone
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desired were not to be had, or at least Stephen
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was not given up his secret if he had one.
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His parents were perhaps too happy to have their son
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back to pry too much into what he did or
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did not know about his disappearance, and the newspaper reporters
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eventually went away when they realized they weren't going to
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get the story that they wanted. Steven could go back
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to living the life he had before he disappeared, so
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suddenly one winter morning, and that's exactly what he did.
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Stephen went on to become a psychologist working in Seattle, Washington.
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He also became an author when he co authored the
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book Metamathematical Foundations of Existence. And throughout all of that time,
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some forty seven years, the public never knew the truth
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of Stephen's disappearance, which brings us up to date with
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this video where I'll let Steven tell his story of
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what happened that day on the ice. Steve, all right,
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thank you for coming over and thank you for choosing
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to talk about your story. Read the book and it
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was great. I was really happy to finally get the
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whole story of your disappearance. And I know there's a
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lot of people out there with a lot of questions still,
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and I'm happy we're doing this follow up because I
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know in our last interview people were, you know, understandably
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a little disappointed, But obviously you had to save a
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lot of information for the book. We couldn't just release
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everything on you know, a podcast, you know, and and
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you you get so much more detail out of a
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book anyway. But now that your book's out and which
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can be purchased at Amazon, by the way, or yeah,
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we'll put links in the description. So now that we're
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able to finally have a bit more of an open
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conversation and we're not going to talk about everything we've
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already agreed on that, but a lot of questions obviously
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surround what happened that day on the ice. So I
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was wondering if you could just let's start with that day.
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Can you kind of walk me through that day in
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your mind on what happened from when you woke up
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and decided to go for a little skiing adventure.
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Yeah, well it was more than just a skiing adventure.
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I was at that, you know, that day, I was
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an incredibly heightened state of awareness. I was about to
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do kind of what most people would think the unthinkable.
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I was about to disappear and change my name to
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Nathan T. Stanfield, and the event would be irreversible you know,
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once I did it, and my life would change, and
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so I don't know, I was just really kind of
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jazzed up really about the whole thing. It felt like
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there was a like I was being guided by the
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universe or the incomprehensible, you know that I had this
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sort of sense that I was really connected with what
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was going on in many way. You know, the disappearance
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is really very multifaceted. It's not just a call a political,
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economic call to action. It also has a kind of
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a transcendental calling that some people might think of as spiritual.
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Others might think maybe it's somebody psychologically driven within or
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we were psychologically driven within, because it's more than just me.
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I had co conspirators. We had a vision. There was
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a sense of hope, and there was a lot of
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rage towards the injustices of the world as we saw them,
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and so we wanted to do something different, and in
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many ways, I felt just kind of open to the
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universe that was gonna let the universe guide me and
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just see you know, who knows what was gonna happen.
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The whole thing could have just fallen apart. Well, actually
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it did eventually, but you know, I was just open
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to see what would happen.
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But there was a plan in place that day, right, Yeah,
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that it wasn't It was well thought out.
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Yeah, it was incredibly well thought out. It was a
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group of us got together and we decided that I
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should disappear. The idea of the disappearance kind of kind
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of back dates that a little bit. I was remember
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I was having a conversation with Walter, with this person
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in the book, and I, you know, I was just
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sort of I just didn't know what to do with
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myself because I didn't want to you know, I could
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graduate and you know, do some good things in the world,
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but I just felt that I would be absorbed by
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the system, by the establishment, and that any kind of
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real radical change, anything that would really change the system,
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would not be possible. So I said, I said, well
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I should, you know, maybe I should disappear. Though I
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didn't know what that meant till many many months later.
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And then many months later it became a group of
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us and we met and we decided that, you know,
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that my disappearance would could cement us all connect us
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all together in a kind of a deep commitment, and
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that we would I would go underground as Nathan T.
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Stanfield and disappear on the ice, and the other co
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conspirators would then pursue more traditional avenues towards power and
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fame and wealth.
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Why was it important for you to disappear, Well, your
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other co conspirators could kind of continue leading their lives.
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Why was it important for you to not have to die? Essentially, Well,
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I had to die in.
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Order to go underground and connect with other people underground
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to help sort of develop a kind of resistance to
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what I what we saw as as the powers that be.
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In order to do that, I had to go underground.
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And it was also just a way to cement things.
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I guess. I guess there's a possible I didn't have
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to go underground.
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Well, I guess people would be looking for you even
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harder if they had thought you kind of lived or yeah, well,
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I mean, you know, if I, you know.
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Decided to join some kind of you know, like French
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Foreign Legion or something. You know, anyways, eight people would
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people would want to you know, still keep track of me.
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And it felt it was smarter that I would just
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cut all ties, all family ties, all ties with friends,
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which which I do still not regret, still feel guilty
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about the suffering I caused my family and my friends
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with disappearance because they had no idea what happens.
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And well, I mean, you've experienced something I think few
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people can ever say they've done. I mean, I was
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trying to put myself in your shoes of walking out
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on the ice that day and and and making those footprints,
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putting the backpack down and then walking back on your
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own footprints to to make it look like you had
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just kind of vanished. And what it would be like
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to to just know that Stephen KUBACKI, as we know,
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he's gone and now there's someone else. It's really hard
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to even imagine, you know. So what kind of emotions
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were you having at that point?
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Well, I was pretty exhilarated by what imagine? Yeah, yeah, exhilaration.
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And I don't know, I'm just I was just looking
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towards the future. I was on a mission. Yeah, we
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had a mission, and part of my mission. The mission
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was that I would disappear. Uh And you know, and
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why was I chosen to disappear or why did you know?
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I guess because I was probably the most fed up
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with everything around me and I just didn't see uh,
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you know, I didn't see a very you know, I
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didn't see a future that I would like by just
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sort of following a more traditional route and going to
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graduate school or doing whatever.
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And at the time, did you have did you set
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up your disappearance kind of in the sense that to
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kind of did you have any idea in your mind
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that people would say, oh, Stephen got abducted by UFOs
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or something, he went into a time portal. Was that
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in your mind?
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That was not? That did not cross my mind really
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in the least, it did not crossed my mind at all. Yeah,
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I mean, yeah, I know there's a lot of talk
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about that, But actually what really kind of happened was
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when I went on the ice, I kind of disso
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I really dissociated. It's kind of like I split, like
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in like in some of the kind of multiverse paradigms
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and physics. It's kind of like I bifurcated and I
279
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returned as Nathan T's fan Stanfield back to the shore
280
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and went to went to Mexico. But there was another
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part of me that was still on the ice, and
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it felt like almost as if I went under the
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ice and I had a sense of kind of being
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in some other dimension, and it took a long time
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to kind of remember kind of what happened. But it
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felt as if I was with beings of light and
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was kind of in a an energy shell of some sort,
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not a flying sauce. I wasn't a right saucers. It
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was really kind of interdimensional. Uh yeah, And it just
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takes It's taken a long time to kind of remember
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all the different things that kind of went on at
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around all that.
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And I imagine like when people hear you say that,
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they might have some difficulty understanding exactly what you mean, right, like,
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because you talk about, you know, your the multiverse and
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all this stuff, had this Have you been experiencing these
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kind of things your entire life or you know?
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I had had some prior experiences when I was real little.
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I I remember seeing my my brother's dead brothers kind
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of spirit or ghost and you know, and that, and
301
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then I had a variety of different experience I used
302
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to There's a lot that went on in my childhood
303
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and adolescence, But adolescence was very difficult for me. I
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remember standing on a pole in my yard for like
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a half an hour and just sitting there meditating. So
306
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I kind of got at altered states in that way.
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And I remember I started reading a lot about shamanism
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and zen Buddhism when I was at Deerfield Academy and
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began to explore that board. I didn't really do any
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drugs at all. I had friends who did drugs when
311
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I was at deer Field, but I didn't really try
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any kind of psychedelics till I went to Hope College.
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That's that's when I and that kind of opened some
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things for me. It's a really amazing way.
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For someone like me. You know, I've I've never had
316
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a paranormal or anomalous experience that I can recall. So
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when I hear stuff like what in this book and
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what you just described almost makes kind of envious in
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a way because it's hard for me to imagine what
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it would be like. Is this something that you think you've.
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No, I don't think it's special. You know, I mentioned
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before that I was you know, I'm trying I almost
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PhD psychologist, right, so I'm trying to trying to understand
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kind of what went on, and from a psychological perspective,
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I had a massive dissociation on the ice, which you
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know could be you know, these in dissociations can lead
327
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to like PTSD in trauma, that's kind of the negative line,
328
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but also can be more visionary, more kind of a
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positive thing, which is what happened to me. But we're
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disassociating all the time. When you dream, you're dissociating. When
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you're having conversations in your head with nobody around, you're dissociating.
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When you're driving and you can't figure out how you
333
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got from one place to the next, you're dissociating. We
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are actually dissociating a lot of the time in our life.
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We're in our heads, we're somewhere else, we're having memories,
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we're thinking of things that could be or might be,
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you know, all kinds of things. So we're constantly disassociating.
338
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So that capacity for all of us is there. But
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you can be trained. You can train yourself and something
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I call constructive dissociation, not destructive like PTSD, where you
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can learn to inter altered states through either meditation or
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there's shamanic techniques, there's prayer, there's a whole variety of
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different ways of entering these other states. Uh and without
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drugs or with drugs, uh and uh, and then experiencing
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these other dimensions, these other universes. So we can. But
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but but there is a training there there you have
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to practice it and in some again I call it
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constructive association as a way to kind of unify all
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the different kinds of methods like meditation and shamanic journeying
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and prayer and such things, ecstatic dancing, this whole, you know,
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all kinds of stuff. Sex. Some people have all kinds
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of visionary experiences sometimes you know, when they're having sex.
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So so when you walked back off the ice, did
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you would you say you felt like Nathan T. Stanfield
355
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and no longer like Stephen KUBACKI in that sense.
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Well, no, because I struggled with it. I you know,
357
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I had a lot of nightmares when I when I
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took the bus to Mexico and I was, I felt
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a horrible night I felt I was being attacked by
360
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I mean my kind of the Buddhist way of thinking
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about it, by sort of like hungry ghosts, you know,
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kind of going after my negative energy, because I created
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a lot of negative energy by disappearing. I mean it
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was quite a havoc. You know, I read about it
365
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later about what went on, but it was you know,
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quite the drama, and you know, and and a lot
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a lot of trim and suffering. You know that I
368
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created by doing that. But we did it for a
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higher purpose. Now you can say that was delusional or delusion,
370
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but that's what we did. And we wanted to take
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action and somehow make the world a better place. We
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were really focused on you know, we we just saw
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all the authoritarian structures in our world and didn't see
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how we would be able to change them. You know,
375
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I grew up at a time was after the Vietnam War,
376
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so there was all this hate war, there was all
377
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this corporate malfeasance going on, environmental destruction. There's just you know,
378
00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.519
there's this this tremendous hate and authoritarianism going on all
379
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over the place, and right now it's probably I think
380
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it's even worse it was way back in the late seventies.
381
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But that was part of you know, kind of the motivations.
382
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And well, actually, before I get to that, I did
383
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have one. This is kind of a minor thing, but
384
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it made me laugh when I read.
385
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It in your book.
386
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When you got back off the ice. You you had
387
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a getaway.
388
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Car, and you went.
389
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To go to the getaway car and the car doesn't start.
390
00:22:41.160 --> 00:22:45.119
It's a lemon, it doesn't start. That seem like maybe
391
00:22:45.119 --> 00:22:47.480
even like a message from the universe or something like
392
00:22:47.640 --> 00:22:48.559
maybe you shouldn't do this.
393
00:22:49.319 --> 00:22:51.240
Well, no, that didn't come for me as message, you know,
394
00:22:51.279 --> 00:22:53.039
I just thought it was well, you know, kind of
395
00:22:53.119 --> 00:22:56.200
keystone calls. I mean in a way, you know, you know,
396
00:22:56.440 --> 00:22:59.319
if you read the book, I didn't do anything that
397
00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:02.000
you would call for. I didn't, you know, I wasn't
398
00:23:02.039 --> 00:23:03.839
I didn't kill I didn't do anything like none of
399
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:09.160
us did anything like that. So there was kind of
400
00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:11.440
a comic quality to the whole thing in that way.
401
00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:15.240
And in my writings, I wrote a lot during this time,
402
00:23:15.319 --> 00:23:17.880
and some of my writings and other people's writings are
403
00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.480
in the book, and there's a lot of kind of
404
00:23:21.519 --> 00:23:24.640
like sarcast about ourselves. You know, it's kind of you know,
405
00:23:24.720 --> 00:23:27.119
we we're pretty critical about what we're doing and if
406
00:23:27.160 --> 00:23:29.920
we're going to do it, and perhaps a little too
407
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:32.680
much thinking in that regard for sure.
408
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:38.960
And so the name of your I don't know, revolutionary
409
00:23:39.000 --> 00:23:44.160
group what was called the Nexialistic revolutionary front, right, and
410
00:23:44.880 --> 00:23:47.240
how did you come up with that name? What is nexialism?
411
00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.599
Okay, Well, first of all, back then in the seventies,
412
00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:54.839
something like revolutionary front was not an uncommon word, right,
413
00:23:54.920 --> 00:24:00.279
I know, that's completely what is that? Yeah, but back
414
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:02.359
then it was sort of a covered word. And the
415
00:24:02.440 --> 00:24:06.519
word nexillism comes from a book by Ae van Volk
416
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:10.680
that Vogt. It's called The Voyage of the Space Beagle.
417
00:24:11.720 --> 00:24:13.920
In the Voyage of the Space Beagle, there is a
418
00:24:13.960 --> 00:24:18.720
guy named Grossener or Robiner who is a nex list,
419
00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.319
And a nex list is somebody who knows how to
420
00:24:22.480 --> 00:24:27.799
integrate across many different scientific disciplines, humanities and art. So
421
00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:31.960
he kind of understands the methodologies and the assumptions behind
422
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:35.440
all the different domains of knowledge. And because he's not
423
00:24:36.160 --> 00:24:40.680
constrained or compartmentalized within any particular discipline, any particular science
424
00:24:40.759 --> 00:24:43.640
or humanity or art, he is able then to think
425
00:24:43.680 --> 00:24:46.480
outside the box. And by being able to think outside
426
00:24:46.519 --> 00:24:49.039
the box, he can then integrate all these different methodologies
427
00:24:49.039 --> 00:24:51.880
and come up with solutions. So it's a spaceship, the
428
00:24:51.920 --> 00:24:55.039
Space Peagle, and they encounter all kinds of threats and
429
00:24:55.079 --> 00:24:58.960
he's able to figure them out. Okay, Well it's I
430
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:00.880
guess it's kind of you know, next lest is kind
431
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:02.720
of a little bit like a renaissance man. You might
432
00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:07.640
might say that somebody who integrates cross a wide variety
433
00:25:07.720 --> 00:25:11.880
of different you know, disciplines and areas and thinks outside
434
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:14.880
the bar creatively to you know, to come up with solutions.
435
00:25:14.880 --> 00:25:16.000
So that's what we called it.
436
00:25:16.039 --> 00:25:20.640
So and where your co conspirators, as you call them,
437
00:25:20.640 --> 00:25:23.599
where they kind of were they already familiar with these ideas.
438
00:25:23.720 --> 00:25:25.200
You discussed these ideas.
439
00:25:25.720 --> 00:25:30.279
The nextalism had was some discussion with with the co conspirators.
440
00:25:30.759 --> 00:25:33.160
I think everybody was on board with with with the
441
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.079
word or the ideas and the concepts.
442
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:39.920
And so this group of your I mean, it seems
443
00:25:39.920 --> 00:25:43.119
like it would be tough, you know, even today to
444
00:25:43.160 --> 00:25:46.079
get a group of people together to all agree on
445
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:49.480
something so serious. I mean, all your friends would have
446
00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:52.079
to keep this a secret, all kinds of things would
447
00:25:52.119 --> 00:25:56.400
have to go. And these are long term plans. I
448
00:25:56.440 --> 00:25:58.079
feel like it'd be hard to find people to get
449
00:25:58.119 --> 00:26:00.480
on board with that. But you found people that we're
450
00:26:00.519 --> 00:26:01.319
willing to do that.
451
00:26:01.400 --> 00:26:03.680
Well, yeah, you're right, it's it's it was a kind
452
00:26:03.680 --> 00:26:07.759
of interesting confluence of people coming together who would probably
453
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.440
never come together. You know, we're all pretty smart, we're
454
00:26:11.480 --> 00:26:14.160
all kind of high energy, we're all you know, we
455
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:15.960
all have our own vision, you know, the group of
456
00:26:16.039 --> 00:26:19.839
us and visions, and normally I think we would go
457
00:26:19.920 --> 00:26:22.319
our separate paths and do whatever we're going to do.
458
00:26:22.480 --> 00:26:24.720
It's very unusual when you get a group of people
459
00:26:25.400 --> 00:26:29.000
like we were together. Uh, And I think it was circumstance.
460
00:26:29.079 --> 00:26:32.920
Maybe it was destiny. I've always sounds a little peculiar,
461
00:26:32.920 --> 00:26:35.160
but even from when I was very young, I always
462
00:26:35.160 --> 00:26:37.759
felt I had a purpose. I felt I had a mission,
463
00:26:37.880 --> 00:26:40.799
even though I didn't understand what that was, and had
464
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something to do with making the world a better place.
465
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:47.240
You know, we're writing in journals and when I was
466
00:26:47.279 --> 00:26:50.160
in tenth grade about you know, why doesn't everybody love
467
00:26:50.160 --> 00:26:52.640
each other? Have the usual study of people write about
468
00:26:53.240 --> 00:26:55.880
and it really really bothered me, you know that, and
469
00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.440
then they I know, I'm kind of the other side
470
00:26:58.480 --> 00:27:02.319
of that was when I went to the Field Academy.
471
00:27:02.400 --> 00:27:05.160
You know, I was really exposed to what it was
472
00:27:05.319 --> 00:27:08.359
like to be with wealthy people and powerful people. Deerful
473
00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:11.079
Academy is one of the most prestigious prep schools in
474
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:15.799
the country, and I came from a lower middle class family.
475
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:19.079
My father worked in a factory all his life and
476
00:27:19.160 --> 00:27:22.960
went on strikes. My mother worked as an administrative assistant administrative
477
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:29.759
at the University of Massachusetts. And I worked in tobacco
478
00:27:29.799 --> 00:27:32.480
fields when I was thirteen, you know, over one hundred
479
00:27:32.480 --> 00:27:34.079
degree heat and time.
480
00:27:34.599 --> 00:27:35.279
I worked in all.
481
00:27:35.160 --> 00:27:38.079
Kinds of factories, and so, you know, you know the
482
00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:41.079
kids I hung around with at Deerfield during summer, you know,
483
00:27:41.160 --> 00:27:43.759
they would they would go to Switzerland for summer camp.
484
00:27:44.079 --> 00:27:47.240
You know, I worked to buy my clothes, you know,
485
00:27:47.319 --> 00:27:49.480
so I could look okay when I went to Deerfield
486
00:27:49.440 --> 00:27:51.200
Academy because I had had a suit. You had to
487
00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.119
have a sports jacket and tie and you know, the
488
00:27:54.119 --> 00:27:54.839
whole nine yurts.
489
00:27:55.480 --> 00:27:58.279
Well, that's another thing that really surprises me, though, because
490
00:27:58.359 --> 00:28:01.079
I mean, you come from this completely different background, and
491
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:03.119
it seemed like some of your co conspirators were more
492
00:28:03.160 --> 00:28:05.880
of the wealthier side some of them. Some of them were,
493
00:28:05.920 --> 00:28:07.839
And it seems to me, like, how do you convince
494
00:28:07.920 --> 00:28:10.799
someone who has that privilege and has there that you know,
495
00:28:11.079 --> 00:28:13.319
potentially a really great life ahead of them in terms
496
00:28:13.400 --> 00:28:16.519
of wealth and materialism. How do you convince them out
497
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:16.839
of that?
498
00:28:16.960 --> 00:28:19.559
I didn't have to convince them because they're pretty fed
499
00:28:19.640 --> 00:28:22.400
up with where they came from. Yeah, they are pretty
500
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:26.359
alienated and stranged from their you know, from their families.
501
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.759
In different ways. They wanted to make a difference in
502
00:28:29.799 --> 00:28:33.759
the world. They saw that their futures if they kind
503
00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:35.480
of did what they were supposed to do, was kind
504
00:28:35.480 --> 00:28:37.880
of all laid out and you know, and you know, again,
505
00:28:37.880 --> 00:28:39.920
it wouldn't didn't mean that they wouldn't help the world
506
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:42.119
in different ways, but not in a very you know,
507
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:45.720
revolutionary way, not in a very major way. I mean,
508
00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.119
all the major changes that we see, you know, in
509
00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:52.839
society have come about because of revolutions, the American Revolution,
510
00:28:53.559 --> 00:29:00.240
their technological revolutions, electricity, quantum theory, computers, there's all kinds
511
00:29:00.240 --> 00:29:02.440
of economic I mean, just you know, and yeah, there
512
00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:06.160
is changes between revolutions and major major events like that.
513
00:29:07.160 --> 00:29:09.880
But so I guess, yeah, we felt we needed to
514
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.319
do something more than just reform things.
515
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:16.240
Well, what's kind of interesting to read in your book.
516
00:29:16.279 --> 00:29:19.599
It almost seems like the plan was that there is
517
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:24.599
no strict plan, right, There was no like super structured plan,
518
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.079
kind of a generalize. Yeah, we know that direction we're
519
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:29.720
trying to get.
520
00:29:29.799 --> 00:29:32.079
We were doing something no one's ever done before, right
521
00:29:32.240 --> 00:29:34.279
the way we were doing it. And so you know,
522
00:29:34.359 --> 00:29:36.400
you couldn't have a linear plan. You know, there was
523
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:39.079
no you know, you couldn't get it. There was no
524
00:29:39.160 --> 00:29:42.079
project manager for this plan. Okay that could say dude,
525
00:29:42.079 --> 00:29:44.799
it is you know, that didn't exist. So we had
526
00:29:44.880 --> 00:29:46.880
you know, we were just yeah, we were trying to
527
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:48.799
figure out as we went along. I mean, we had
528
00:29:48.960 --> 00:29:53.960
definite ideas like splitting the n RF and Exolistic Revolutionary
529
00:29:53.960 --> 00:29:56.000
Front and we called the Left arm, which is what
530
00:29:56.039 --> 00:29:58.160
I would do. I would go underground and try to
531
00:29:58.200 --> 00:30:01.240
develop a sense of resistance among people to change things
532
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:07.440
kind of in a more traditional, old more revolutionary sense in
533
00:30:07.480 --> 00:30:07.960
some ways.
534
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:08.720
Uh.
535
00:30:09.039 --> 00:30:11.279
And then the other people were in the right arm,
536
00:30:11.480 --> 00:30:14.519
and they were supposed to do things like get into politics,
537
00:30:14.920 --> 00:30:19.240
we go into businesses, religion, law, a variety of different things,
538
00:30:19.480 --> 00:30:23.039
and then we would get The idea was that we
539
00:30:23.079 --> 00:30:25.559
would all come together at some point and then we
540
00:30:25.559 --> 00:30:27.599
would be unstoppable and we would then be able to
541
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.480
change things. And I mean one of the things we
542
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.119
really wanted to change, was really wanted to democratize everything.
543
00:30:34.440 --> 00:30:39.839
You know, that was very important to us. People don't
544
00:30:39.839 --> 00:30:42.359
think about it, but we live most of our time
545
00:30:42.440 --> 00:30:45.759
in authoritarian institutions. You know, we vote once every two
546
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.759
or four years, but most of people live in jobs
547
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:52.279
that are very authoritarian, very corporate, very top down, medieval
548
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.559
like structures, and we seem to be okay with it
549
00:30:55.599 --> 00:30:57.599
for the most part. I mean sometimes there are challenges,
550
00:30:58.079 --> 00:31:00.799
but you know, most of us live in pre authoritarian
551
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.400
situations all the time. I mean, that's a lot better
552
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:08.319
here than rushder know for sure, right, But you know.
553
00:31:09.279 --> 00:31:11.160
Do you think it would be difficult for people that
554
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:13.920
kind of live. It may be authoritarian, as you say,
555
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:17.440
but people would probably they have a sense of comfort, right,
556
00:31:17.759 --> 00:31:20.720
and so would be difficult to break them out of
557
00:31:20.759 --> 00:31:23.440
that system where their minds have I mean, do they
558
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:24.119
know anything else?
559
00:31:24.160 --> 00:31:26.640
Well, you know, no, I'm a psychologist, so I have
560
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:28.799
a lot of clients who work at some of the
561
00:31:28.799 --> 00:31:33.400
big corporations like Amazon and Microsoft, et cetera. And these
562
00:31:33.440 --> 00:31:35.680
are not a lot of times very happy people. A
563
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:37.720
lot of people who work there, you know, they work
564
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:44.920
tremendous hours, they feel exploited, but it's very hard for
565
00:31:44.960 --> 00:31:47.160
them to stand up for themselves, and they generally have
566
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.400
people way above them who are not as smart as
567
00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:52.440
they are, but yet are in a position of power.
568
00:31:52.599 --> 00:31:57.200
And there's always politics, and you know, I know it
569
00:31:57.240 --> 00:32:00.359
sounds like a funny idea, but you know, in some ways,
570
00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:03.319
people say, you look at Amazon, there's no reason why
571
00:32:03.359 --> 00:32:04.640
all the people, you know, some of the people at
572
00:32:04.640 --> 00:32:07.359
Amazon couldn't get together and say, oh, we're just going
573
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:09.880
to start our own Amazon. You know, heck, with all
574
00:32:09.920 --> 00:32:14.599
this money going to you know, these rich people, these executives,
575
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:16.279
and we don't need them. We can create our own
576
00:32:16.839 --> 00:32:19.599
you know, management, et cetera, and have it completely democratized
577
00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:21.640
and actually do a lot.
578
00:32:21.519 --> 00:32:25.839
Better, which so that it's a huge change.
579
00:32:26.319 --> 00:32:27.920
Yeah, yeah, I don't think it's going to happen.
580
00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:30.160
Right well, and that's why, you know, I mean, you
581
00:32:30.200 --> 00:32:33.720
get you when you were young, with your co conspirators,
582
00:32:33.720 --> 00:32:37.720
you had grand plans. Did you have any doubt in
583
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.319
your mind at that time?
584
00:32:39.799 --> 00:32:42.039
Yeah, we had doubt whether we could achieve what we wanted.
585
00:32:42.079 --> 00:32:44.400
I mean, who knows, any of us could have gotten
586
00:32:44.480 --> 00:32:47.000
killed in different ways, or you know, we could have
587
00:32:47.000 --> 00:32:50.799
gotten seduced by power, or you know, who knows what
588
00:32:50.839 --> 00:32:53.279
would have happened. It's hard to tell with all these things,
589
00:32:53.319 --> 00:32:56.160
you know, I mean you only look at history. History
590
00:32:56.240 --> 00:32:58.240
is really based on a lot of chances, you know,
591
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:00.799
being in the right place at the right time, you know,
592
00:33:02.799 --> 00:33:07.000
and it's very unpredictable. Extremely it's very easy you look
593
00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:08.799
back and people say, well it was because of this
594
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.680
and that. But when you're in the middle of it,
595
00:33:10.720 --> 00:33:13.319
you really have no idea what's going to happen. And
596
00:33:13.359 --> 00:33:15.559
being in the right place at the right time and
597
00:33:15.880 --> 00:33:19.319
using your intuition and everything can help you achieve things.
598
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:22.680
Well, that's one thing that noted. There's probably a lot
599
00:33:22.720 --> 00:33:24.920
of people out there, would imagine who have come up
600
00:33:24.960 --> 00:33:27.839
with ideas for revolution and whatnot, but then they have
601
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.200
no follow through. That's what impressed me is that you
602
00:33:31.240 --> 00:33:34.400
had these pretty grand ideas and you went through with it,
603
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:37.319
or you tried to. Yeah, yeah, intense.
604
00:33:37.400 --> 00:33:40.279
Yeah. We were people of action what I call practice.
605
00:33:40.400 --> 00:33:42.480
We were we wanted to take ideas and turn them
606
00:33:42.480 --> 00:33:46.200
into action. And that's always been my life. My life
607
00:33:46.240 --> 00:33:50.480
has always been about taking action, throwing the dice, uh,
608
00:33:50.720 --> 00:33:53.640
and sort of risking it all at times like that night,
609
00:33:53.839 --> 00:33:56.000
just threw all the dice and I have done that
610
00:33:56.000 --> 00:34:00.559
before after that out of the same way again by
611
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:03.720
any means. But yeah, but I think, uh, the willingness
612
00:34:03.720 --> 00:34:06.000
to take action is difficult. We spend a lot of
613
00:34:06.039 --> 00:34:09.039
our times in our minds. We spend a lot of
614
00:34:09.079 --> 00:34:13.079
our times uh kind of uh dimming our lights or
615
00:34:13.079 --> 00:34:15.960
other people dimming our light bulbs, and where we could
616
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.960
be a lot more than we are. But we've learned
617
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:20.880
to dim ourselves and we were okay, we've learned to
618
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:23.320
accept that. And you know, we have a we have
619
00:34:23.360 --> 00:34:25.800
a culture industry that's like a drug, you know, and
620
00:34:25.880 --> 00:34:29.039
so lots of times people turn to the culture industry
621
00:34:29.119 --> 00:34:32.679
to fill themselves up, to fill the emptiness inside. But
622
00:34:32.719 --> 00:34:35.559
it doesn't long long term work. And you know that's
623
00:34:35.559 --> 00:34:38.559
why we have so many very unhappy people so in
624
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:41.880
the world and alienated and the trust and anxious.
625
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.119
It sounds like you still hold a lot of those
626
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:47.920
same beliefs that you did back when you started the NRF.
627
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:51.320
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would still say. I still say
628
00:34:51.320 --> 00:34:56.639
I'm a next list, but you know, I've changed a lot.
629
00:34:56.679 --> 00:34:59.400
I one of the one of the things that definitely was,
630
00:34:59.800 --> 00:35:01.960
you know, it's easy to look back and what you
631
00:35:02.000 --> 00:35:04.599
could have done differently, but the secrecy thing was the wrong,
632
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.960
was wrong that that that wasn't that would have ended
633
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:10.400
up sabotage even if we were successful, you know, a
634
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.639
little bit of it, sabotaged it because I secrecy then
635
00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:19.199
leads then to power getting accumulated in various hands and
636
00:35:19.199 --> 00:35:23.119
and and so now I've come to I've come to
637
00:35:23.119 --> 00:35:26.360
the idea that things need to be radically transparent, you know.
638
00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:28.239
And part of my that's why I've written the book,
639
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:31.800
is to be as radically transparent as I can. Uh.
640
00:35:31.840 --> 00:35:34.679
And I think it's through radical transparency that things can
641
00:35:34.719 --> 00:35:36.840
really change. I mean, it'd be really interesting to know
642
00:35:36.920 --> 00:35:39.960
what's you know, in the books on all the corporations
643
00:35:40.000 --> 00:35:42.360
and what's going on in government and et cetera. If
644
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.320
there was, you know, really transparency, uh. And that would
645
00:35:46.400 --> 00:35:49.280
give people then the ability to really make the decisions
646
00:35:49.360 --> 00:35:51.719
they want. But if you control things, if you're secretive,
647
00:35:52.880 --> 00:35:57.440
then ultimately, you know, you can't really democratize things. You know,
648
00:35:57.599 --> 00:36:00.440
secrecy and democracy don't go together. We didn't, we didn't
649
00:36:00.440 --> 00:36:05.000
get that back way back then. But also, I think
650
00:36:05.079 --> 00:36:07.239
violence is just not a way to go about doing anything.
651
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:09.760
And I mean, I don't know, if you want to
652
00:36:09.760 --> 00:36:11.920
get into it or not. But you know, at the
653
00:36:11.960 --> 00:36:14.440
time you started in or had you guys talked about
654
00:36:14.519 --> 00:36:16.840
whether violence would have to be a part of a revolution.
655
00:36:17.119 --> 00:36:20.199
We talked about it. We were trying not to be violent.
656
00:36:20.320 --> 00:36:22.599
We didn't want to go down that path. We you know,
657
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:26.519
we prefer probably taking a more kind of Martin Luther King,
658
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.440
you know, something like that. But you know, sometimes things
659
00:36:30.480 --> 00:36:34.320
get you know, impossible, and sometimes that's why people take
660
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.960
up art. That's why we had the American Revolution, you know,
661
00:36:37.119 --> 00:36:40.280
the things you can't do anything. So yeah, that was
662
00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:45.199
that was there. That was a possibility, and it's actually
663
00:36:45.320 --> 00:36:48.559
you know, I did some training in that kind of
664
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:49.440
direction in the book.
665
00:36:50.199 --> 00:36:52.079
Did you ever worry about you know, I mean you
666
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:54.280
had so you had You have to have a lot
667
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:57.559
of trust, I would imagine with your co conspirators, because
668
00:36:57.639 --> 00:36:59.480
at any time, if any one of them just kind
669
00:36:59.519 --> 00:37:02.239
of lapsed is in their commitment to this and they
670
00:37:02.280 --> 00:37:05.199
could reveal everything and then everything's just well right.
671
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:07.159
Well they if they revealed, they'd be in trouble too.
672
00:37:07.679 --> 00:37:10.960
You know, I disappeared. You know, they had helicopters looking
673
00:37:11.000 --> 00:37:14.360
for me, et cetera, et cetera. You know, people will
674
00:37:14.360 --> 00:37:20.320
get in trouble. I you know, when I re emerged,
675
00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:24.440
I said I had amnesia, But I said I had
676
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:27.360
amnesia in order to protect my cold conspirators and I
677
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:30.960
so that they could move forward with their lives. And
678
00:37:31.000 --> 00:37:34.679
I've protected them for over forty five years, you know,
679
00:37:34.920 --> 00:37:37.480
and really you know, and the book is written so
680
00:37:37.920 --> 00:37:40.840
all the names of the co conspirators and where they
681
00:37:40.840 --> 00:37:43.280
came from and said, it's all been changed to protect them.
682
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.960
So if they want to come out and say who
683
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:48.199
they are, they can do that. But that's not you know,
684
00:37:48.239 --> 00:37:51.559
that's not my It wouldn't be my right to do that,
685
00:37:52.199 --> 00:37:56.840
you know, But gotcha. But you know, so, yeah, it's
686
00:37:58.519 --> 00:38:01.000
you again, repetition. But you know it really kind of
687
00:38:01.039 --> 00:38:03.559
the disappearance cemented us. And I don't think anybody was
688
00:38:03.599 --> 00:38:04.320
going to tell.
689
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:08.840
Anybody cemented by this kind of great active.
690
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:12.199
And then and then yeah, because you know, anybody would
691
00:38:12.239 --> 00:38:17.559
you know, And you know, if somebody knew that you
692
00:38:17.599 --> 00:38:19.639
were part of this sort of a you know, the
693
00:38:19.719 --> 00:38:22.719
NRAF and you were trying to make it through politics,
694
00:38:23.000 --> 00:38:24.880
what do you think what think's going to happen to you?
695
00:38:27.199 --> 00:38:30.119
Or becoming a banker or something or you know, yeah,
696
00:38:30.199 --> 00:38:33.360
probably not going to work so well. So you know,
697
00:38:33.480 --> 00:38:37.280
I took the heat. I I you know, and you know,
698
00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:40.760
and I tried to change my life and redirect my
699
00:38:40.840 --> 00:38:44.760
life after I re emerged, and I had all kinds
700
00:38:44.800 --> 00:38:47.360
of movie requests for movies, all kinds of things, but
701
00:38:47.400 --> 00:38:50.679
I put that behind me completely and I didn't want to.
702
00:38:50.760 --> 00:38:52.360
So that's why I've been quiet for forty five years,
703
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:54.119
because I didn't want my life to be based on
704
00:38:54.199 --> 00:38:56.239
that only. And I've done a lot of other things
705
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:56.679
since then.
706
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:01.159
Yeah, I'm surprised, So I have a small point.
707
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:01.599
I guess we.
708
00:39:01.719 --> 00:39:04.079
Requests from movies that if they hadn't had the full
709
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:06.039
story yet, what are they going to do the movie about?
710
00:39:06.360 --> 00:39:09.440
Well, they wanted you to reveal. Yeah, of course, right, right,
711
00:39:09.480 --> 00:39:11.559
of course I wasn't, you know, but I wasn't. I
712
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:13.639
didn't want to do that because I didn't want my
713
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:16.840
life to be totally defined by this event. It's an
714
00:39:16.840 --> 00:39:19.719
important event in my life, and it's had tremendous impact
715
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.920
on my thinking and other things. I've been writing and
716
00:39:21.920 --> 00:39:25.840
hoping to get published. But you know, I wouldn't have
717
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:29.159
gotten probably would't gotten my PhD in psychology, you know.
718
00:39:29.519 --> 00:39:31.679
I so you didn't want to always be known as
719
00:39:31.679 --> 00:39:35.280
just the guy who disappeared and came back with amnesia.
720
00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:36.800
Right exactly exactly, And so.
721
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.199
This is probably a way to move on from that
722
00:39:38.239 --> 00:39:38.719
in a sense.
723
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:41.320
This book, yeah, this is the book is kind of
724
00:39:41.320 --> 00:39:43.159
a way to you know, I'm getting it out there
725
00:39:43.239 --> 00:39:46.880
and hopefully, you know, people see it of some value.
726
00:39:46.920 --> 00:39:50.239
You know. I hope it's inspirational, you know. I think
727
00:39:50.239 --> 00:39:53.440
it's connected with kind of coming to age and absolutely
728
00:39:53.480 --> 00:39:55.360
you know, and trying to find out who you are.
729
00:39:55.519 --> 00:39:58.039
And I think it might resonate with a lot of
730
00:39:58.079 --> 00:40:02.360
young people and people in their twenties and you know
731
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:05.280
that that we can we can do something to change
732
00:40:05.320 --> 00:40:06.599
the world. People can do something.
733
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:10.159
Are you still in touch with any members of the
734
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:11.440
NRF today.
735
00:40:11.639 --> 00:40:14.800
Yes, I am, really, yeah, I'm yeah, I know we're
736
00:40:14.840 --> 00:40:17.519
all them all. There's one particular I'm in touch with,
737
00:40:18.920 --> 00:40:20.719
but yeah, everybody.
738
00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:23.039
So those that for the most part that some of
739
00:40:23.039 --> 00:40:28.920
those friendships have held out through forty five years. Yeah, yeah, wow, Yeah,
740
00:40:29.039 --> 00:40:31.880
you spend much time thinking about back then, like your
741
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.199
time is Nathan Stanfield you know today? Do you do
742
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:36.239
you still think about it?
743
00:40:36.400 --> 00:40:40.360
Well? Sometimes, well, I have to write the books but
744
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:45.599
in your daily life. In some ways, I think it's
745
00:40:45.639 --> 00:40:47.280
kind of a lodd way of thinking about it. But
746
00:40:47.719 --> 00:40:51.039
you know, what I did, you considered very illegitimate, you know,
747
00:40:51.360 --> 00:40:55.280
disappearing rep you know, underground revolution, you know, the whole
748
00:40:55.280 --> 00:40:59.239
thing is quite illegitimate in most people's eyes. And after
749
00:40:59.320 --> 00:41:01.440
I re emerg Urge, I kind of swung in the
750
00:41:01.440 --> 00:41:05.119
opposite direction. I decided to follow more a path of legitimacy.
751
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:07.199
And so that's why it became a you know, kind
752
00:41:07.199 --> 00:41:11.840
of PhD psychology and master's linguistics, a variety of different things,
753
00:41:12.320 --> 00:41:15.440
because I wanted to do good in that rat realm.
754
00:41:15.760 --> 00:41:18.960
And I think the book is kind of, I guess
755
00:41:19.000 --> 00:41:21.599
for me kind of it is kind of a bringing
756
00:41:21.639 --> 00:41:25.639
the two worlds together back together to get the kind
757
00:41:25.679 --> 00:41:28.320
of radical world and the more I guess, you know,
758
00:41:28.480 --> 00:41:32.599
traditional ways of trying to help people and putting that
759
00:41:32.679 --> 00:41:34.880
all together and from the book, because you know, made
760
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:38.119
me do a lot of thinking about other things. And
761
00:41:39.239 --> 00:41:40.760
I have some other books coming out.
762
00:41:40.679 --> 00:41:45.280
Hopefully really hopefully, well they would give us a little
763
00:41:45.320 --> 00:41:48.480
taste of what you so as is your plan for
764
00:41:48.519 --> 00:41:51.719
the future to continue writing or continue thoughts on the
765
00:41:51.800 --> 00:41:53.960
multiverse or what yes, future.
766
00:41:54.119 --> 00:41:56.239
My future is to get get some books out that
767
00:41:56.239 --> 00:41:59.320
I've been writing for some time. One of them is
768
00:41:59.440 --> 00:42:02.880
called The Multiverse Guide Humanity, and it's all a way
769
00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:06.199
of looking at the multiverse and applying the ideas of
770
00:42:06.239 --> 00:42:12.880
the multiverse to help people kind of develops more of
771
00:42:12.880 --> 00:42:16.440
the good life and to understand how they can live
772
00:42:16.480 --> 00:42:19.000
better and happier lives. So that's sort of that.
773
00:42:19.039 --> 00:42:22.199
Focus, almost like a multiverse self help book.
774
00:42:22.280 --> 00:42:24.039
Yeah it is, there is, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's
775
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:25.840
a whole bunch of principles in it about what people
776
00:42:25.840 --> 00:42:29.119
can do to improve their lives. And if you think
777
00:42:29.159 --> 00:42:33.079
of the multiverse, you know, the rat version that fits
778
00:42:33.079 --> 00:42:35.199
in most closely with quantum mechanics is that there are
779
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:38.599
an infinite number of universes, an infinite number use there
780
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:45.159
is just infinite above everything in quantum theory. And when
781
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:48.119
you think about how does that similar to what we
782
00:42:48.199 --> 00:42:51.360
do as humans? What's similar to that? And one of
783
00:42:51.400 --> 00:42:53.840
the things I thought of was it's very similar to love,
784
00:42:54.400 --> 00:43:00.519
because love is all about expansion, connecting, creating more connections, accepting,
785
00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:03.599
and the multiverse has that kind of expansiveness and that
786
00:43:03.719 --> 00:43:07.760
kind of all those sort of connections, the positive motions
787
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.320
are kind of more affiliated with that. Where as negative
788
00:43:10.320 --> 00:43:15.760
emotions are generally contract they contract you more like fear
789
00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:19.400
and hate, so they make your world smaller, where as
790
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.440
positive emotions make your world bigger, sort of like the multiverse.
791
00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:25.800
So is the multiverse something you can, like you think
792
00:43:25.840 --> 00:43:30.480
an individual can connect with in a certain way or oh,
793
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.400
then it might be interested in your book because I
794
00:43:32.440 --> 00:43:35.440
was curious you know, how to do that, you know,
795
00:43:35.559 --> 00:43:38.000
in a sense, because it's such a big part in
796
00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:41.239
a lot of your writings, not just this book. And
797
00:43:42.079 --> 00:43:44.880
you know, it's a concept I'm still trying to, you know,
798
00:43:44.920 --> 00:43:47.320
wrap my head. I get the general concept, and I
799
00:43:47.360 --> 00:43:50.239
think it's quite fascinating and something I've often thought of
800
00:43:50.280 --> 00:43:53.159
as you know, being quite legitimate really, you know, I
801
00:43:53.199 --> 00:43:57.840
mean as much as it's almost impossible to imagine, you
802
00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:03.119
know when I think about it. But you know, reading
803
00:44:03.119 --> 00:44:05.760
through some of your experiences and whatnot, it seems like
804
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.679
you've found a way to connect with it in which
805
00:44:08.960 --> 00:44:10.719
most people maybe haven't.
806
00:44:11.039 --> 00:44:13.960
Well, again, I spoke a little about dissociating. We're always
807
00:44:13.960 --> 00:44:17.880
dissociating the training. It's a training, and I call it
808
00:44:18.360 --> 00:44:21.679
constructive dissociation. But another way of thinking about it is,
809
00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:24.519
you know, traversing the multiverse. That we can do that,
810
00:44:24.599 --> 00:44:27.039
and we are doing that sometimes in our dreams without
811
00:44:27.079 --> 00:44:32.239
knowing it. Sometimes we have visions. Sometimes we know things
812
00:44:32.239 --> 00:44:34.639
we shouldn't have known. We shouldn't know, you know, where
813
00:44:34.679 --> 00:44:38.039
did that come from? But there is a training you
814
00:44:38.079 --> 00:44:39.719
could do, and I talk about that in that in
815
00:44:39.760 --> 00:44:40.280
this book.
816
00:44:40.960 --> 00:44:44.360
I had a question about lessons that you may have
817
00:44:44.480 --> 00:44:48.519
learned from the NRF and your adventures in this book
818
00:44:48.599 --> 00:44:52.840
that you might think we're particularly relevant to today's political climate,
819
00:44:53.639 --> 00:44:58.639
you know, because you know, there's a lot of people
820
00:44:58.639 --> 00:45:02.239
would say radicalism today. You were involved in some sense
821
00:45:02.280 --> 00:45:05.440
and radical it, So I don't know, do you have
822
00:45:05.440 --> 00:45:06.800
any thoughts on that in general?
823
00:45:07.840 --> 00:45:11.960
Well, I think, you know, as I talked about before,
824
00:45:12.119 --> 00:45:15.880
I think we need to challenge authoritarian structures and just
825
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:18.760
not cave into them. And we need to think about
826
00:45:19.199 --> 00:45:21.079
kind of how we you know, on every day, how
827
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:23.679
are we living our lives on the every day? You know,
828
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.719
when you work? You know, what what kind of struct
829
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:28.760
what kind of organization is that? Is it? Is it
830
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.599
a helpful organization? Is it authoritarian? Do you have any
831
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:36.360
say and to begin to think about those things and
832
00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:39.400
you know, and maybe people think more about them and
833
00:45:39.519 --> 00:45:43.840
begin to challenge the authority authority based systems we have.
834
00:45:44.480 --> 00:45:46.639
Then you know, maybe there will be change, Maybe people
835
00:45:46.679 --> 00:45:49.360
will will move in the right direction, and we'll have
836
00:45:49.440 --> 00:45:53.360
progress of some sort. I mean, you know, things are
837
00:45:53.400 --> 00:45:55.079
a lot different than they were thousands of years ago,
838
00:45:55.280 --> 00:45:56.679
hell of a lot better now that they were way
839
00:45:56.719 --> 00:46:02.239
back when. But you know, destructure, the environment's continuing relentlessly.
840
00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:07.719
But perhaps unlike your younger self, I would assume today
841
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.079
you're certainly probably an advocate of non violence and approaches, right,
842
00:46:12.159 --> 00:46:12.559
I think not.
843
00:46:12.760 --> 00:46:17.559
I think well, because violences is a misuse of power always.
844
00:46:17.639 --> 00:46:22.039
I think it's you know, it's uh, it's always creates
845
00:46:22.320 --> 00:46:27.719
harm and suffering. So ultimately, I don't know, it's you know, yeah,
846
00:46:27.760 --> 00:46:29.920
if somebody else is using violence against you, like in
847
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:31.880
World War two or something, you gotta do something. You've
848
00:46:31.880 --> 00:46:33.519
got to fight back or you know, you're not to
849
00:46:33.559 --> 00:46:35.920
allow themselves to crush you and take you over or
850
00:46:36.000 --> 00:46:39.559
kill you. But that's a whole different kind of situation
851
00:46:39.679 --> 00:46:40.280
in context.
852
00:46:40.360 --> 00:46:45.800
So gosh, I think we've covered a lot of the
853
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:49.199
main stuff I wanted to give it through. I had
854
00:46:49.239 --> 00:46:51.159
a couple of fun questions for you if you want to.
855
00:46:51.280 --> 00:46:56.199
Sure you're a big Tolkien fan, right, yeah, uh, you're
856
00:46:56.239 --> 00:46:59.920
familiar with the Lord of the Rings movies you watch,
857
00:47:00.119 --> 00:47:02.239
because Tolkien actually comes up in your book quite a bit.
858
00:47:02.440 --> 00:47:03.840
Yeah, yeah, you know.
859
00:47:05.639 --> 00:47:07.960
And you're you're reading German too, right.
860
00:47:08.000 --> 00:47:11.199
I've read it in German. I can even recite the
861
00:47:11.320 --> 00:47:16.119
little sing, the little rhyme at the beginning of Three
862
00:47:16.199 --> 00:47:19.199
Rings for Elvin Kings. I can do that in German
863
00:47:19.400 --> 00:47:25.800
driving and then because even in hallen Ewstein hair enough
864
00:47:25.840 --> 00:47:30.400
to control the mortor what he shopping scarier German.
865
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:38.400
Right, it almost sounds like you're speaking orchishs you watch
866
00:47:38.440 --> 00:47:39.679
the new series brings a power.
867
00:47:40.360 --> 00:47:43.039
What do you think? I liked it? Check it out.
868
00:47:43.320 --> 00:47:45.199
That's quite a divisive. I wanted to get Quebec.
869
00:47:45.679 --> 00:47:47.920
Well, I mean I liked it. I I you know,
870
00:47:47.960 --> 00:47:50.760
I especially liked the second season.
871
00:47:50.840 --> 00:47:52.360
I thought was an improvement.
872
00:47:52.760 --> 00:47:55.199
Well I don't know improvement, but it was really good
873
00:47:55.239 --> 00:47:57.599
to kind of get into the character of Son and
874
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.559
to see, you know, how how evil he was and
875
00:48:00.599 --> 00:48:05.360
how he brainwashed, you know, used what people wanted against them,
876
00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:08.400
and you know, you know, kind of sucked them into
877
00:48:08.679 --> 00:48:11.039
you know, like calibrin boor and making the rings and
878
00:48:11.079 --> 00:48:11.480
all that.
879
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.079
See him in a little different sason. He's a big
880
00:48:14.119 --> 00:48:15.440
guy in armor. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
881
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:18.000
You know, in the first season you're like almost sympathetic
882
00:48:18.000 --> 00:48:21.400
with him a little a little bit like, well, maybe
883
00:48:21.400 --> 00:48:25.880
he's not such a bad guy. Maybe you know, maybe
884
00:48:25.920 --> 00:48:27.599
he's not, but you know, well, of course, towards the
885
00:48:27.679 --> 00:48:29.320
end of the first season you begin to realize he's
886
00:48:29.480 --> 00:48:31.119
definitely a backup, right, Yeah.
887
00:48:31.119 --> 00:48:33.360
I wanted to get the take from a true Tolkien fans.
888
00:48:33.440 --> 00:48:34.960
Yeah, no, no, I think it was good. I mean,
889
00:48:35.000 --> 00:48:37.679
you know, I don't know. It's hard to things could
890
00:48:37.679 --> 00:48:39.719
be all done a little differently, I guess, But I
891
00:48:39.719 --> 00:48:41.119
don't know. That was interesting.
892
00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:47.440
You're a well traveled individual, so if you had to,
893
00:48:47.519 --> 00:48:50.159
if you could give someone advice on one country they
894
00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:52.159
could go to, what would you.
895
00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:53.639
Say, one country?
896
00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:56.519
Yeah, someone was looking to expand their horizons.
897
00:48:59.239 --> 00:49:00.719
I don't know why this off in my head. I'd
898
00:49:00.719 --> 00:49:04.239
go to Peru. Yeah, really cool. Wow, it's got.
899
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:07.719
Mountains, it's got deserts, ruins.
900
00:49:07.119 --> 00:49:12.119
Ruins, it's got all kinds of interesting indigenous healing practices,
901
00:49:12.519 --> 00:49:17.559
it's got macho jungles. Amazon.
902
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:20.559
Is there how many countries. Would you say you've been
903
00:49:20.559 --> 00:49:21.639
to a lot.
904
00:49:22.559 --> 00:49:25.719
Yeah, yeah, you know, I don't know, you know, it's
905
00:49:25.719 --> 00:49:33.239
pretty different. I don't know. You know, Europe is incredible Asia.
906
00:49:34.559 --> 00:49:36.639
Since you've had an interesting life, I'd say you got
907
00:49:36.679 --> 00:49:40.360
any what would be your go to life advice? Go
908
00:49:40.400 --> 00:49:45.840
to life anyone watching? You know, you know, accumulated everything
909
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:50.760
you've learned in your life into a signal sentence? Doesn't
910
00:49:50.800 --> 00:49:53.480
have to be quite so serious.
911
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:55.840
This is I'm taking this from somebody. I would say,
912
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:58.360
follow a path with a heart in it, and that
913
00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:02.159
comes from Carlos Costaday books. But follow a path with
914
00:50:02.199 --> 00:50:05.800
a heart on it. That's what I would tell people. Like,
915
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:08.360
there's lots of paths, and you know, in the scheme
916
00:50:08.400 --> 00:50:11.119
of things over zillions of years, et cetera, you know,
917
00:50:11.239 --> 00:50:14.239
no path is really no better than another path. It's
918
00:50:14.320 --> 00:50:16.599
just what you make out of it and is it
919
00:50:16.760 --> 00:50:18.840
Does it have a heart in it? Is it meaningful
920
00:50:18.880 --> 00:50:24.920
to you? Are you joyful? Yeah? That's Unfortunately a lot
921
00:50:24.960 --> 00:50:29.840
of us learn to follow paths without a heart. We
922
00:50:29.840 --> 00:50:33.599
we we become who we're not. We we accept all
923
00:50:33.679 --> 00:50:38.159
kinds of things that make us, you know, unhappy, We
924
00:50:38.239 --> 00:50:42.000
get we we identify more with our negative emotions, you know,
925
00:50:42.119 --> 00:50:47.960
with fear and anger rather than curiosity and joy. And yeah,
926
00:50:48.119 --> 00:50:51.199
that's always you know, the negative emotions, you know, they're good,
927
00:50:51.239 --> 00:50:52.920
They're important for us to have. I mean, you know,
928
00:50:53.360 --> 00:50:55.280
you know, I should be afraid if you're next to
929
00:50:55.320 --> 00:50:57.320
a jaguar or something. You know, if you should write, okay,
930
00:50:57.320 --> 00:50:58.880
you should be low. Whatever.
931
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:01.599
Instincts are important, right right.
932
00:51:01.639 --> 00:51:05.239
But but but chronic negative emotions, you know, always lead
933
00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:08.320
I think, to tremendous unhappiness, not just suffering for the person,
934
00:51:08.360 --> 00:51:10.679
but also suffering from others.
935
00:51:11.119 --> 00:51:14.480
Anyway, thank you for doing this, Steve, appreciate thank you.
936
00:51:14.559 --> 00:51:17.880
I love an interview last time and this has been
937
00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:19.840
a great one. Than you're good.
938
00:51:22.119 --> 00:51:24.159
Now, before we end this video, I want to say
939
00:51:24.159 --> 00:51:27.159
a few things. It was my idea to not discuss
940
00:51:27.239 --> 00:51:30.920
the bulk of events which occurred after Stephen faked his disappearance.
941
00:51:31.360 --> 00:51:33.800
If I gave away everything with this video, it wouldn't
942
00:51:33.800 --> 00:51:36.679
be very fair to him. Besides, I know many people
943
00:51:36.719 --> 00:51:39.119
were curious about what happened that day on the ice
944
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:41.800
and why Stephen did what he did, and I think
945
00:51:41.880 --> 00:51:45.480
we covered that in good detail. Stephen faked his disappearance
946
00:51:45.519 --> 00:51:48.760
by walking out on that ice, leaving his equipment and
947
00:51:48.840 --> 00:51:51.519
carefully walking back through the tracks that he made on
948
00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:54.159
his way in. After that, he had to get away
949
00:51:54.159 --> 00:51:57.280
car waiting for him in Holland, which hilariously did not
950
00:51:57.400 --> 00:52:00.119
work and you might have caught it when Steven said it.
951
00:52:00.159 --> 00:52:02.320
But after that he managed to get a bus ticket
952
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:05.559
down to Mexico, and that's where the story really begins.
953
00:52:05.599 --> 00:52:08.639
In my mind. The adventures that Stephen went on after
954
00:52:08.679 --> 00:52:11.760
he disappeared is an interesting and worthy read, and I
955
00:52:11.800 --> 00:52:15.119
mean that genuinely. He also addresses many of the issues
956
00:52:15.159 --> 00:52:17.679
I was hoping he might have, like his feelings on
957
00:52:17.719 --> 00:52:20.480
what this did to his parents and family, or how
958
00:52:20.480 --> 00:52:23.440
he feels about all the resources used in searching for him.
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00:52:23.840 --> 00:52:26.039
If this case interests you, then I would encourage you
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00:52:26.079 --> 00:52:27.840
to give it a look. I read it all in
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00:52:27.880 --> 00:52:31.400
one sitting. And as to why Stephen faked his disappearance,
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00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:33.920
in short, he did it to try and start a
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00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:37.840
revolution with his co conspirators. Oh the things we do
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00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:41.159
when we are young. So the mystery finally comes to
965
00:52:41.199 --> 00:52:44.840
an end after many decades of speculation where people said
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00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:48.360
he fell into a time portal, or was abducted by UFOs,
967
00:52:48.840 --> 00:52:51.639
or it was the deadly Michigan Triangle. I hate to
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00:52:51.639 --> 00:52:55.119
say that I was right, but please check out the
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00:52:55.159 --> 00:52:58.079
links to purchase Steve's book in the description of this video,
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00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:00.280
or you can search it up on an was on.
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Easily enough and until next time, Thanks for watching