Audra: [00:00:00] So a student may come in hungry or tired or, you know, they just came in from recess. And, you know, after recess, they tend to be a little more agitated or something like that. Those are kind of setting of a setting the stage.
Intro: Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorist podcast miniseries. This round, join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Sami Brown, here to bring you fun and functional advice for creating and implementing behavior plans. Let's get started.
Audra: Hi, welcome back to the Misfit Behaviorist and our ongoing miniseries about developing a rock solid FBA.
And so far we have talked about kind of that initial referral process, getting your consents taken care of, and then doing the initial, I think we talked about interviews and observations. So now we are going to move on because we have Sami back and she sounds great. She's survived how many bouts of COVID now?
Sami: You know, me and the Rona, we got a lot to talk [00:01:00] about.
Audra: Best buddies now, aren't ya?
Sami: Yes, so if I come across a little nasally, now you know.
Audra: So today we are going to talk about what is next, and this is the very first step of taking that initial ABC data.
Everybody talks about it, most everybody knows what it is, we're talking about kind of A is for antecedent, what happens before. B is for behavior what you're actually seeing, what it looks like. And then C is for consequence. And that just means whatever happened afterwards. And this initial data collection is just the chance for you to, to begin, you know, to grab the first pieces of open ended data collection.
Now you're not talking to somebody who's not a part of it. You're not making an observation, standing back, you're actually jotting down exactly what's going on. This is something you can start in your observations, but I like using the ABC as a starter because it's kind of a little bit of a looser approach.
You can teach some of your teachers who may never have taken data before, you can teach them how to do this. It doesn't take any [00:02:00] special paperwork. You're just jotting down what was going on before and what was going on, what did it look like and what happened afterwards. So what have you, Sami, kind of seen as the benefits of using and starting with the ABC stuff.
Sami: I think that the first part is learning how to make that ABC as concise as possible, because I do think that sometimes, and I have seen this where people are taking correct ABC, but it's so lengthy and it really doesn't need to be. And so I think it's learning that you're really pretending that you're a pigeon looking at the building, so to speak, and you're trying to take notes specifically on what occurred right before the behavior happened.
And so it's like I told all the kids to go to their desks for a math test. And so it's very clean, just very concise and not extra wordy. And I think that the wordier that people get, they tend to put in more emotional language. Then kind of teetering away [00:03:00] from that, you know, unbiased, unemotional, data driven type collection.
So that's just my first thought.
Audra: Yeah, and I think that's perfect because I think when you're talking about, we do those initial observations and we're more lengthy in that and we do take some of that ABC data. We're talking about kind of starting to really pinhole exactly what we're looking at.
And these can be, you know, your A's and your B's and your C's can just be a couple of words. You're starting to jot down quick notes. You don't need to take a long paragraph of everything that was happening before. This is just a way for us to look at a snapshot and kind of see, oh, I'm seeing that this is happening a lot during when they ask for math worksheets to start, or this is happening a lot when this particular staff is. And so it's kind of this broad view that you're looking at that next, which we'll talk about next week is how to kind of hone into that and pinpoint those pieces.
But yeah, I think that's exactly right. It doesn't have to be lengthy and it's something that's very easy to teach a staff member to take because of [00:04:00] that. It's like, you don't have to sit back and write a paragraph for every little piece. We're just jotting down a quick thing that happened before, what the behavior was, and then what happened afterwards.
Sami: When you're thinking about You know, obviously our terminology and we're saying antecedent versus like setting events and explaining the difference of those because there is some similarity, I think, and also some differences and
Audra: and it's important to realize that too, because yeah, so a setting event is something that kind of primes the pump sort of sets the stage. So a student may come in hungry or tired or, you know, they just came in from recess. And, you know, after recess, they tend to be a little more agitated or something like that. Those are kind of setting of a setting the stage. And then the trigger or the A, the antecedent is that trigger that what was it that made the behavior kind of pop up? What was it that started the whack a mole, you know, who pushed the button the whack a mole.
Sami: Your iceberg, kind of the idea of it's the things that are underneath the iceberg, [00:05:00] under the water that kind of are teetering, and then what is the thing that eventually tips it on its side?
Audra: Yep, and that thing could be, you know, the worksheet was handed out, or they were told to put their book away, or something, something triggered it from happening right then. So, you know, if you're working on kind of an ABC sheet, and obviously you don't have to have a specific graph or any other chart for this. It's super easy. Just take a piece of paper and go, you know, make a T chart. So if you're writing down your A's, you know, if you know, they did come in from recess, that is part of the A, that's kind of that setting event. So maybe they came in from recess and they were told to put their bag in the cubby. They put it in the wrong cubby or something, you know, so there you have kind of your setting event and then they were told to do something and then you see the behavior escalate or whatever. So those are important pieces, but it doesn't have to be a big long thing either.
Sami: I just wonder if we've ever discussed very openly, what are the most common antecedents that we see in a school setting? Not that we're not saying don't take ABC data and individualize it to the [00:06:00] specific student, because we always want to do that, but I do think that there's oftentimes a lot of very common antecedents that happen in a school setting that become the trigger for behavior. It's really looking at what are those environmental things at some point. And I know this is kind of part of all of the package that we put together. But there are a lot of common antecedents that occur, which is, I think in some ways can be modified that we have some control of, but it's those preferred activities to those non preferred. It's scheduling things like that.
Audra: So, yeah, and that's something we will talk about, you know, when we start to talk about strategies and environmental strategies, whatever things we do later on, we're talking about a behavior plan. But this made me think I had a friend call me yesterday. Who's a 1 on 1 for a student who has autism ODD has all all the letters. And and she's struggling. She's a para. She doesn't have the background that we have but she's a really good mom, and I'm sure she's, I haven't seen her as a para, but I'm sure she's [00:07:00] fantastic, but she doesn't have all the tools in her tool belt. And one of the things we talked about was, Those antecedents, what can you do beforehand to prevent the behavior from happening?
How can you provide that student choice so that they can have control? I think that's what you're talking about is a lot of what we do in schools that kind of triggers some of the behaviors are just like you're given a demand and you're just expected to do this. And some of our kids have a really hard time understanding and navigating those feelings, those emotions, and all the sensory overload stuff they have. And so how can we kind of structure things? Earlier so that we don't get to the behavior
Sami: and I think that a lot of kids. You know, demand is placed, so to speak, but they don't have the cognitive abilities or the socialization yet to know how long is this demand? How much am I going to have to do? When does it end? And so their anxiety and that internal builds continues or kind of builds. Gets them agitated because it's not explicit to them [00:08:00] of like, we're only going to do this for blah, blah. Or our math problems there, you only are going to need to do five. Like we don't come into it that way.
We just have a lot of blanket statements. And it leaves people to kind of stew themselves in the, how long is this going to go for? How much is expected of me? What do I, and then. There we go. It, it, it starts somewhere.
Audra: Well, then you're going with the circle, too. Then you're creating that anxiety and stuff, and then you get a behavior and a consequence and stuff. Well, then you have more anxiety that's building, and then you have other behaviors, and it's just rough cycle that just keeps going because you have those antecedents, those setting events that then are primed for the next behavior, the next thing that happens.
So, I guess, and the other thing with good ABC data is that you can get multiple staff members. And this is really the idea that you're doing with kind of this ABC data, is gathering quick information about different settings, different people, different times of day. You can't be everywhere all at once and do everything. And so teaching paras and staff and everybody to take [00:09:00] quick notes of what do we mean by ABCs. I need just a little bit of information, what was happening before, what the behavior was and what happened afterwards, so that then we can start to analyze what to do with that information. Which would take us to the kind of the next step.
Sami: Yeah. And so are you going to talk specifically about like, I mean, obviously the behavior, the B part of this T chart, so to speak, is what exactly did the student do? Yeah.
Audra: So what's the stuff that you would put into a B?
Sami: B could be lots of different things. It could be they threw something they got up and ran around the room, they hit somebody next to them, they had verbal aggression directed towards the teacher or to appear.
Audra: Right. And so the key on the B is to be specific, like you're talking and not just saying they had a tantrum. Well, what did that tantrum look like, you know? I like to use the word meltdown. It's a little better than tantrum, but you know, that's kind of common term. So, student has a meltdown. What did that look like? So, maybe they fell to the ground [00:10:00] and they, you know, hit their head on the floor and screamed and it took about 20 seconds. Blah, blah, blah. So you really want to kind of want to define it because as the BCBA or the behavior support person goes and analyzes that, they're going to start to pull out those things, those behaviors that are consistently happening and what they look like, because then we're going to create what we call an operational definition, what it really looks like in kind of the majority of the time so that we can start honing in and taking, adding some strategies and see if we have an effect on it. So, yeah, and the B, we want to be specific. Not a lot of verbiage, not a lot of emotional language. Take that out. Just tell us what you see. So just be a fly on the wall. What do you see happening for how long? What was the intensity?
Sami: Right. Yeah. Or did the room get really loud and all the peers were really excited and clapping and then a behavior occurred.
Audra: And then C is really just what happened afterwards, you know. Did you have to remove the other students in the room? Did you try to negotiate something with the [00:11:00] student? Did you give the student what they wanted? Did you, did you have a verbal reprimand and tell them to stop or what? Whatever it was. And again, there's no emotional language. It's just what happened afterwards because that helps us figure out what the, our hypothesis or what that function was, what it was getting.
Because if we start to see that every time he engages in this particular behavior. Okay. The, then he gets out of the work, you know, that gives us a clue of why the behavior is happening, why it continues to happen. Or if every time he engages in this behavior, all the peers watch him, you know, and then it gets an indication of why the behavior is happening, what he's getting out of it, or she.
Sami: Yeah, and you know, I sometimes, actually not sometimes, all the time, I don't like the word consequence. You know, we're talking about, you know, antecedents, behavior, consequences, the consequences people view as punishment. I almost like to see as closure.
Audra: Ooh, I like that!
Sami: So it's, you have a behavior and then how did the behavior, how was their closure from the behavior? And so [00:12:00] whatever that is, maybe something that in the future we're looking to manipulate or have an intervention based around because that's what helps stop or prevents the behavior from occurring continual.
Audra: That's brilliant and I'm going to use that all the time now. Did you come up with that? Closure?
Sami: This is my rona brain.
Audra: That was really good. I think you should get the rona more often.
Sami: Oh my goodness.
Audra: Anyway, so that's the end of kind of ABC. Collecting, getting your staff or anybody around them, take it for, you know, however long until you start to see the patterns. I think we'd like to take it at least a few days.
Because then we're going to start to take that information and do what we're going to talk about next, which is kind of honing in on a more specific behavior collection system. And so we will talk about that next week. So we will catch you the next time and Sami will be feeling a lot better by then.
Sami: We hope so. All right.
Intro: Thanks for listening to the Misfit Behaviorist. And be sure to tune in [00:13:00] next week for more tips and tricks. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
Intro: Welcome to the Misfit Behaviorist podcast miniseries. This round, join your hosts, Audra Jensen and Sami Brown, here to bring you fun and functional advice for creating and implementing behavior plans. Let's get started.
Audra: Hi, welcome back to the Misfit Behaviorist and our ongoing miniseries about developing a rock solid FBA.
And so far we have talked about kind of that initial referral process, getting your consents taken care of, and then doing the initial, I think we talked about interviews and observations. So now we are going to move on because we have Sami back and she sounds great. She's survived how many bouts of COVID now?
Sami: You know, me and the Rona, we got a lot to talk [00:01:00] about.
Audra: Best buddies now, aren't ya?
Sami: Yes, so if I come across a little nasally, now you know.
Audra: So today we are going to talk about what is next, and this is the very first step of taking that initial ABC data.
Everybody talks about it, most everybody knows what it is, we're talking about kind of A is for antecedent, what happens before. B is for behavior what you're actually seeing, what it looks like. And then C is for consequence. And that just means whatever happened afterwards. And this initial data collection is just the chance for you to, to begin, you know, to grab the first pieces of open ended data collection.
Now you're not talking to somebody who's not a part of it. You're not making an observation, standing back, you're actually jotting down exactly what's going on. This is something you can start in your observations, but I like using the ABC as a starter because it's kind of a little bit of a looser approach.
You can teach some of your teachers who may never have taken data before, you can teach them how to do this. It doesn't take any [00:02:00] special paperwork. You're just jotting down what was going on before and what was going on, what did it look like and what happened afterwards. So what have you, Sami, kind of seen as the benefits of using and starting with the ABC stuff.
Sami: I think that the first part is learning how to make that ABC as concise as possible, because I do think that sometimes, and I have seen this where people are taking correct ABC, but it's so lengthy and it really doesn't need to be. And so I think it's learning that you're really pretending that you're a pigeon looking at the building, so to speak, and you're trying to take notes specifically on what occurred right before the behavior happened.
And so it's like I told all the kids to go to their desks for a math test. And so it's very clean, just very concise and not extra wordy. And I think that the wordier that people get, they tend to put in more emotional language. Then kind of teetering away [00:03:00] from that, you know, unbiased, unemotional, data driven type collection.
So that's just my first thought.
Audra: Yeah, and I think that's perfect because I think when you're talking about, we do those initial observations and we're more lengthy in that and we do take some of that ABC data. We're talking about kind of starting to really pinhole exactly what we're looking at.
And these can be, you know, your A's and your B's and your C's can just be a couple of words. You're starting to jot down quick notes. You don't need to take a long paragraph of everything that was happening before. This is just a way for us to look at a snapshot and kind of see, oh, I'm seeing that this is happening a lot during when they ask for math worksheets to start, or this is happening a lot when this particular staff is. And so it's kind of this broad view that you're looking at that next, which we'll talk about next week is how to kind of hone into that and pinpoint those pieces.
But yeah, I think that's exactly right. It doesn't have to be lengthy and it's something that's very easy to teach a staff member to take because of [00:04:00] that. It's like, you don't have to sit back and write a paragraph for every little piece. We're just jotting down a quick thing that happened before, what the behavior was, and then what happened afterwards.
Sami: When you're thinking about You know, obviously our terminology and we're saying antecedent versus like setting events and explaining the difference of those because there is some similarity, I think, and also some differences and
Audra: and it's important to realize that too, because yeah, so a setting event is something that kind of primes the pump sort of sets the stage. So a student may come in hungry or tired or, you know, they just came in from recess. And, you know, after recess, they tend to be a little more agitated or something like that. Those are kind of setting of a setting the stage. And then the trigger or the A, the antecedent is that trigger that what was it that made the behavior kind of pop up? What was it that started the whack a mole, you know, who pushed the button the whack a mole.
Sami: Your iceberg, kind of the idea of it's the things that are underneath the iceberg, [00:05:00] under the water that kind of are teetering, and then what is the thing that eventually tips it on its side?
Audra: Yep, and that thing could be, you know, the worksheet was handed out, or they were told to put their book away, or something, something triggered it from happening right then. So, you know, if you're working on kind of an ABC sheet, and obviously you don't have to have a specific graph or any other chart for this. It's super easy. Just take a piece of paper and go, you know, make a T chart. So if you're writing down your A's, you know, if you know, they did come in from recess, that is part of the A, that's kind of that setting event. So maybe they came in from recess and they were told to put their bag in the cubby. They put it in the wrong cubby or something, you know, so there you have kind of your setting event and then they were told to do something and then you see the behavior escalate or whatever. So those are important pieces, but it doesn't have to be a big long thing either.
Sami: I just wonder if we've ever discussed very openly, what are the most common antecedents that we see in a school setting? Not that we're not saying don't take ABC data and individualize it to the [00:06:00] specific student, because we always want to do that, but I do think that there's oftentimes a lot of very common antecedents that happen in a school setting that become the trigger for behavior. It's really looking at what are those environmental things at some point. And I know this is kind of part of all of the package that we put together. But there are a lot of common antecedents that occur, which is, I think in some ways can be modified that we have some control of, but it's those preferred activities to those non preferred. It's scheduling things like that.
Audra: So, yeah, and that's something we will talk about, you know, when we start to talk about strategies and environmental strategies, whatever things we do later on, we're talking about a behavior plan. But this made me think I had a friend call me yesterday. Who's a 1 on 1 for a student who has autism ODD has all all the letters. And and she's struggling. She's a para. She doesn't have the background that we have but she's a really good mom, and I'm sure she's, I haven't seen her as a para, but I'm sure she's [00:07:00] fantastic, but she doesn't have all the tools in her tool belt. And one of the things we talked about was, Those antecedents, what can you do beforehand to prevent the behavior from happening?
How can you provide that student choice so that they can have control? I think that's what you're talking about is a lot of what we do in schools that kind of triggers some of the behaviors are just like you're given a demand and you're just expected to do this. And some of our kids have a really hard time understanding and navigating those feelings, those emotions, and all the sensory overload stuff they have. And so how can we kind of structure things? Earlier so that we don't get to the behavior
Sami: and I think that a lot of kids. You know, demand is placed, so to speak, but they don't have the cognitive abilities or the socialization yet to know how long is this demand? How much am I going to have to do? When does it end? And so their anxiety and that internal builds continues or kind of builds. Gets them agitated because it's not explicit to them [00:08:00] of like, we're only going to do this for blah, blah. Or our math problems there, you only are going to need to do five. Like we don't come into it that way.
We just have a lot of blanket statements. And it leaves people to kind of stew themselves in the, how long is this going to go for? How much is expected of me? What do I, and then. There we go. It, it, it starts somewhere.
Audra: Well, then you're going with the circle, too. Then you're creating that anxiety and stuff, and then you get a behavior and a consequence and stuff. Well, then you have more anxiety that's building, and then you have other behaviors, and it's just rough cycle that just keeps going because you have those antecedents, those setting events that then are primed for the next behavior, the next thing that happens.
So, I guess, and the other thing with good ABC data is that you can get multiple staff members. And this is really the idea that you're doing with kind of this ABC data, is gathering quick information about different settings, different people, different times of day. You can't be everywhere all at once and do everything. And so teaching paras and staff and everybody to take [00:09:00] quick notes of what do we mean by ABCs. I need just a little bit of information, what was happening before, what the behavior was and what happened afterwards, so that then we can start to analyze what to do with that information. Which would take us to the kind of the next step.
Sami: Yeah. And so are you going to talk specifically about like, I mean, obviously the behavior, the B part of this T chart, so to speak, is what exactly did the student do? Yeah.
Audra: So what's the stuff that you would put into a B?
Sami: B could be lots of different things. It could be they threw something they got up and ran around the room, they hit somebody next to them, they had verbal aggression directed towards the teacher or to appear.
Audra: Right. And so the key on the B is to be specific, like you're talking and not just saying they had a tantrum. Well, what did that tantrum look like, you know? I like to use the word meltdown. It's a little better than tantrum, but you know, that's kind of common term. So, student has a meltdown. What did that look like? So, maybe they fell to the ground [00:10:00] and they, you know, hit their head on the floor and screamed and it took about 20 seconds. Blah, blah, blah. So you really want to kind of want to define it because as the BCBA or the behavior support person goes and analyzes that, they're going to start to pull out those things, those behaviors that are consistently happening and what they look like, because then we're going to create what we call an operational definition, what it really looks like in kind of the majority of the time so that we can start honing in and taking, adding some strategies and see if we have an effect on it. So, yeah, and the B, we want to be specific. Not a lot of verbiage, not a lot of emotional language. Take that out. Just tell us what you see. So just be a fly on the wall. What do you see happening for how long? What was the intensity?
Sami: Right. Yeah. Or did the room get really loud and all the peers were really excited and clapping and then a behavior occurred.
Audra: And then C is really just what happened afterwards, you know. Did you have to remove the other students in the room? Did you try to negotiate something with the [00:11:00] student? Did you give the student what they wanted? Did you, did you have a verbal reprimand and tell them to stop or what? Whatever it was. And again, there's no emotional language. It's just what happened afterwards because that helps us figure out what the, our hypothesis or what that function was, what it was getting.
Because if we start to see that every time he engages in this particular behavior. Okay. The, then he gets out of the work, you know, that gives us a clue of why the behavior is happening, why it continues to happen. Or if every time he engages in this behavior, all the peers watch him, you know, and then it gets an indication of why the behavior is happening, what he's getting out of it, or she.
Sami: Yeah, and you know, I sometimes, actually not sometimes, all the time, I don't like the word consequence. You know, we're talking about, you know, antecedents, behavior, consequences, the consequences people view as punishment. I almost like to see as closure.
Audra: Ooh, I like that!
Sami: So it's, you have a behavior and then how did the behavior, how was their closure from the behavior? And so [00:12:00] whatever that is, maybe something that in the future we're looking to manipulate or have an intervention based around because that's what helps stop or prevents the behavior from occurring continual.
Audra: That's brilliant and I'm going to use that all the time now. Did you come up with that? Closure?
Sami: This is my rona brain.
Audra: That was really good. I think you should get the rona more often.
Sami: Oh my goodness.
Audra: Anyway, so that's the end of kind of ABC. Collecting, getting your staff or anybody around them, take it for, you know, however long until you start to see the patterns. I think we'd like to take it at least a few days.
Because then we're going to start to take that information and do what we're going to talk about next, which is kind of honing in on a more specific behavior collection system. And so we will talk about that next week. So we will catch you the next time and Sami will be feeling a lot better by then.
Sami: We hope so. All right.
Intro: Thanks for listening to the Misfit Behaviorist. And be sure to tune in [00:13:00] next week for more tips and tricks. Don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss an episode.
