Bottle Shops before Bars: starting at the liquid and work back towards the brand | with Duncan McRae, Co-Founder of Woven (Adelaide, Australia) | 028

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Welcome to the Matheo Drinks
Podcast.
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I'm your host, Chris Matheo.
In episode 28, I had the
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pleasure of chatting to Duncan
McRae, cofounder of Walden and a
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drinks industry veteran.
Having previously worked with
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William Branson Sons and the
audio, he's a leading example of
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building brands.
Bottle up.
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I hope you enjoy your chat.
Hi Duncan.
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How you doing?
I'm very well, thank you.
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Very well indeed.
Nice to finally meet you in
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person and put a face to the
LinkedIn post.
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That's true.
That's true into the newsletter.
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I still remember when you wrote
me about my newsletter as you
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are a reader and I remember you
saying that you agree with
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almost everything and not
exactly everything.
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So I hope we will have a few
challenges on the conversation
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today and we'll learn from each
other.
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Yeah, no, I do enjoy it.
I feel very lucky to have found
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it at the time that I did
because I was doing lots of like
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third party consultancy and
essentially I got loads of free,
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very insightful information from
you in 51 liners that I could
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recycle and claim as my own in
front of clients.
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Not quite, but I think it's a
great thing what you're doing
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and I think.
The value in what you offer for
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free, it is I think a lot of
people have a good understanding
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of the sorts of things you're
talking about, but they haven't
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articulated it in the way that
you are able to.
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And I think that's why a lot of
people click and they get on
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board very quickly with what
you're saying because it feels
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like common sense.
But no one's ever written it
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down and I think it's a very
useful thing for people.
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I share it with all my clients
and all my industry contacts
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and.
People that I mentor or run into
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at distilleries because it's the
only thing I have to compare it
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to, is a book, which was the
autobiography or the biography
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of the founder of 42 Below, the
New Zealand vodka brand that was
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going back like 25 years and it
was just at the first wave of
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premium vodka, just when brands
like Grey Goose were in their
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infancy.
They took this brand from a
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startup as a side hustle to
global success and then eventual
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sell out for millions of dollars
to Bacardi.
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I think ended up with it.
And this is pre Internet as well
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pre social media and the way
they built that brand is
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codified in this book and the
title of the book says it all
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really.
You'll love this to someone with
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good expertise in sales, but
every bastard said no.
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And the book is basically a
story of, like, how they built
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the brand in your words, bottom
up.
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Bar by bar.
DRAM by DRAM, bartender by
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bartender.
And when I was finding my brand
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with my cofounders, I scoured
the Internet on eBay and found,
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like, enough copies to give
everyone one.
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And I was like, this is the
Bible.
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We need to not be any under any
illusion.
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It's going to be as hard as this
and I think.
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Your newsletter is really good
for that because it gives people
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like some real talk about how
it's going to thank you, thank
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you.
That's the aim of what I'm
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doing.
And sometimes it feels like a
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little bit of a like I'm the bad
guy, like telling the truth of
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the dreamers.
But you should get it right as
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early as possible.
Then you can save a lot of
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money.
And I've spent a lot of money on
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behalf of brands and I know what
works and what doesn't.
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That's the actual aim.
Let me ask you the first
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question.
I know you are a marketer at
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heart and there is this big
buzzword that everybody uses now
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brand awareness.
Let's build brand awareness of
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the brand is lacking awareness
and who this meeting and big and
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small companies are full of the
sentence.
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I like to call it more like
demand building demand rather
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than creating awareness because
it's a little bit fluffy for me
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awareness.
So what's your take on that?
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How in your experience, your
current experience with Woven
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and in your previous experience,
how do you think brands should
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build demand when they start?
I think building demand in the
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entree, there's a million
different ways to do it.
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I think there's that old saying
of you can lead a horse to
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water, but you can't force it to
drink.
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And brand awareness.
Is not like a turnkey solution.
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It's a complex ecosystem where
it's supported by.
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Understanding the occasion, the
need, state the product features
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and benefits and linking it to
consumers because I think
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there's brands that have high
awareness, but they're still not
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cool or they're not in demand or
they're not meeting the needs of
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their target consumer or
whatever.
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And I think how to go about
building it I think is taking
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your time really.
Spending some time investigating
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all the assumptions that are
baked into your vision as a
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brand and removing your ego or
your confidence and playing
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devil's advocate with yourself
and saying why on earth would
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anyone need this?
And it's not because you want to
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sell it to them or you think
it's great or you're fixing a
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category problem that no one
cares about because a lot of
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brands do that.
They're like, oh, they've.
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Come up with the solution and
then they've created an argument
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to sell that solution.
But no one's having that
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argument or that conversation.
And I think deconstructing
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demand is, I would hate to say
that there's luck involved, but
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it's that thing of being in the
right place at the right time
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with the right proposition, with
the right story to meet the
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needs of either the bartender,
the buyer, the consumer.
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And there's a lot of things that
need to go right.
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And some of it's intuitive, but
a lot of it is not common sense.
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And I think it's so complex.
It's so hard.
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I don't pretend that it's easy.
But yeah, as you said, it's very
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easy to waste a lot of money in
the entree with poorly conceived
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ideas that are forced because
they have to work or it should
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work.
And it just doesn't.
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And it doesn't make sense
because a lot of things need to
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go right.
There's approaches you can use
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about playing devil's advocate,
listening rather than talking.
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I think that's the best thing
you can do first.
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And then there becomes like a
doggedness as well where you
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can't take the first though as
this doesn't work.
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That's where you need good
relationships between marketing
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who say this is a great idea.
We've got loads of insights.
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We've developed this product to
meet this situation.
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And then sales who are like,
yeah, you would say that you're
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marketing.
This is what the real world
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says, and therefore it's going
in the bottom of my priority
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list because it's a hard sell
like you need a strong.
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Relationship between those two
entities to make something work
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because you need them to say
okay, that didn't work.
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But you need that like openness,
constant communication, like a
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true belief that you're on the
same team and you're not being
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given something ineffective to
sell.
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Like your feedback is listened
to and responded to and valid.
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That relationship, I think is
probably the biggest thing that
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can make or break brands in the
early days.
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And often it's the same person.
And founder led startups, sales
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and marketing is like.
The founder often is a very
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interesting point with what
you're raising because it's so
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you mentioned it there, like
with a few things, it's about
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the system in place, putting a
system in place.
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Because everybody more or less,
we discussed this in the
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beginning.
Everybody knows what to do, more
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or less.
When I'm talking, when I'm
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writing on LinkedIn, when I'm
writing a newsletter or having a
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chat like this with you on a
podcast.
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I'm not reinventing the wheel,
you know, It's it's not like
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it's stuff that people know
about.
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It's just that I feel that a lot
of brands, they lack the system
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and they know the bits and
pieces and they cannot put them
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together.
For example, the maintenance,
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the technical team would be
super great at certain things,
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but then it's kind of
disconnected from a brand team.
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They may not have never heard of
each other, met each other, had
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the feedback to each other.
Then it's about the Kpi's to
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have shared Kpi's between sales,
marketing and operations.
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Because a lot of time they are
incentivized on different things
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that go against each other, like
the distillery or the brewery.
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It's incentivized on productions
and effectiveness and efficiency
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driving efficiencies on products
and they discard SK U's that may
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be super needed by the on trade
system because that's the one
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that put the foot in the door in
pubs and then they can squeeze
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in the other.
The more boring kind of brands
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that may have a huge brand
awareness like close to 99% in
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that market, but nobody wants
them anymore because they are
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just on promo on supermarket
shelves all the time.
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So it's this is the very
interesting discussion and like
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we're not going to solve it here
but the my wish let's say it is
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trying to decode it in a way
that you know what I see what
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you guys are doing with woven
for example like you created a
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kind of movement if I got it
right from experiencing from
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from an outsider perspective on
creating the community and
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getting to a certain place
before the product was actually
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even available.
And of course it has got to do
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with the fact that whiskey needs
aging and maturation and so
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forth.
There is a point that I'm
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struggling with when I talk to
sales teams.
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That is you cannot show up to
the to a bar with the product
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that they've never heard of
because the bar community is
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very intertwined together, like
across the world, across
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different cities, countries and
so forth.
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And if they haven't heard about
your brand, there's a reason you
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know like it.
It's not that they it cannot be
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that they have missed it.
Okay, one of the 20 bars you're
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going to talk to may have not
heard about it, but the they
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must have heard it somehow.
Otherwise there's something
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wrong.
So how do you create that
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demand, for example, before you
actually entered the bar or the
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public restaurant?
For us it was.
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Like, we were really lucky.
We came with loads of insights.
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We'd all done.
There were three of us
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originally.
There's now five of us.
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Three of us are like drinks
industry since, you know, legal
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drinking age bartenders into
brands, big companies, small
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companies, different parts of
the world, different skill sets,
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interestingly.
So we are a nice blend of sales,
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marketing and advocacy and that
works really well for us because
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we knew not what we were doing.
We still don't know what we're
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doing.
Let's get that very clear.
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But we knew what we wanted to do
and why certain things were
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going to be important.
Initially we were self funded,
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so we knew we couldn't make
enough whiskey to satisfy the
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demand we wanted to create.
So our primary objective of what
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we called phase one was just
about mental availability.
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That's what big drinks companies
call it.
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But getting the brand out there
noticed, talked about like we
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call it a blue tick moment like
Instagram where people would be
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like, oh woven.
Yeah, I've not tried it but.
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I hear it's decent or it's
credible.
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It's not just a fad or a fake
thing like it's got substance.
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And the right.
People are saying the right
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things about it.
So we we had a lot of existing
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relationships we were able to
lean into and a lot of people
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had either mentored us or helped
us.
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And the brand?
We built was not really about
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us.
It's about the relationship
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between.
Us and everyone.
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Else and so it's quite a
friendly, warm brand.
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To approach people with because
we're talking about the cool
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distilleries we're getting casks
from to make our blends, or
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we're talking about the cool
distilleries we're working with
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to.
Bottle our product because we
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only use third party production
and as ex bartenders we're able
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to walk in and really connect
with licensees and bar owners
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because.
We are probably like painfully
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out of touch from that world
now, but that's where our
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journey started and for us, it's
the most important, most
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important channel for us as a
new brand because we understand
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that's where the reputations
emerge.
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From that's these people in the
independent off trade.
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We talk about the fact that
these independent passion
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project whiskey shops, they hand
sell every bottle.
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So you don't just get the
product, you get a story or a
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00:13:08,010 --> 00:13:12,690
way to drink it or a
recommendation that you use when
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00:13:12,690 --> 00:13:15,610
you get that bottle And you say
the guy in the shop said you
229
00:13:15,610 --> 00:13:18,530
should drink it in this cocktail
or this way.
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00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:23,290
And we love that because that's
they are like the unsung heroes
231
00:13:23,290 --> 00:13:26,570
of the whiskey industry, those
sales guys in shops that hand
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00:13:26,570 --> 00:13:27,330
sell.
Every bottle.
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00:13:27,940 --> 00:13:30,140
But bartenders do that in the
entree as well.
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00:13:30,140 --> 00:13:32,780
They upsell, they make
recommendations.
235
00:13:32,780 --> 00:13:34,260
They say, oh, you've ordered
that.
236
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:39,100
Have you heard of this?
And we've done it in the way
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00:13:39,100 --> 00:13:42,340
that I just described it
independent of trade first,
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00:13:42,820 --> 00:13:46,380
because that's where our
proposition and price point is.
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00:13:46,780 --> 00:13:50,020
We did get a lot of.
Support from our domestic
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00:13:50,340 --> 00:13:53,540
Edinburgh bar scene because of
friends and relationships.
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00:13:54,050 --> 00:13:59,250
But realistically we're in a
50CL, we're about £50 and it's
242
00:13:59,250 --> 00:14:03,090
not quite cheap enough to work
in cocktails for people.
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00:14:03,650 --> 00:14:06,530
So we were going into these bars
and we were like, hey, we just
244
00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:10,130
wanted to let you know and it
was almost like the anti cell.
245
00:14:10,210 --> 00:14:13,170
It's like we've launched, you
might have seen it online.
246
00:14:13,610 --> 00:14:15,890
You're very important to us as a
bar.
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00:14:16,010 --> 00:14:20,370
This is our home turf, like we
want to be in here.
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00:14:20,780 --> 00:14:23,540
But the reason we're not coming
to sell this product to you now
249
00:14:23,580 --> 00:14:25,900
is because everything we're
doing is a limited edition.
250
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:28,900
We don't want to piss you off by
asking you to put it on a
251
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,180
cocktail list and then you go to
reorder it and you can't.
252
00:14:31,740 --> 00:14:34,380
But we wanted to make sure that
you tasted it, you knew it, you
253
00:14:34,380 --> 00:14:36,020
had a chance to ask any
questions.
254
00:14:36,340 --> 00:14:40,300
And we'll see you in nine months
when hopefully we get to the
255
00:14:40,300 --> 00:14:42,180
level where we can do a
continuous liquid.
256
00:14:42,260 --> 00:14:44,340
At a price.
Point that is going to work for
257
00:14:44,340 --> 00:14:49,460
you and everyone of course
listed the because they were
258
00:14:49,460 --> 00:14:51,000
like.
That's so cool.
259
00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,640
Love what you guys are doing,
you guys, that's such a great
260
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,480
story.
Really appreciate you coming to
261
00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,640
see us and let us taste it.
First, what can we do to help
262
00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,080
you?
And so we we were doing it out
263
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,400
of courtesy to like our own
community, telling them that
264
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,440
this will be for you in time.
But at the moment it's not.
265
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:12,720
And it's backfired because most
of our volume in Scotland went
266
00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,240
through the entree and there
were all these cocktail lists in
267
00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,350
town with like.
Our cocktails scored out because
268
00:15:19,430 --> 00:15:21,230
they couldn't get hold of the
product anymore.
269
00:15:21,230 --> 00:15:24,310
This is this is super insightful
because first of all the
270
00:15:24,350 --> 00:15:27,750
launching in the off trade first
which is of course the whiskey
271
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:31,030
is quite peculiar in certain
extents and I we if it was a
272
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:33,950
gene brand we would be having it
probably like a different
273
00:15:33,950 --> 00:15:36,550
conversation but it's very
interesting like what you're
274
00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:41,030
saying firstly about the off
trade and then also about how
275
00:15:41,030 --> 00:15:46,450
you how it played and I heard a
few words that resonates with me
276
00:15:46,450 --> 00:15:49,970
which is the home turf, the
importance of winning in the
277
00:15:49,970 --> 00:15:53,690
home turf.
You cannot have a Scotch whiskey
278
00:15:54,450 --> 00:15:59,650
not known in Scotland first of
all and of course that then when
279
00:15:59,650 --> 00:16:02,170
you play with the blends and
when you play with duffer the
280
00:16:02,290 --> 00:16:04,890
other worlds whiskey geographies
then you can play with that
281
00:16:05,090 --> 00:16:07,650
thing.
But there is that element and
282
00:16:07,650 --> 00:16:12,690
then also the fact that it
really, the liquid I hear plays
283
00:16:12,690 --> 00:16:18,170
such a strong role that then you
can really start from there and
284
00:16:18,170 --> 00:16:22,090
build the relationship with
who's going to sell it
285
00:16:22,370 --> 00:16:25,730
afterwards, right?
I think we put pressure on
286
00:16:25,730 --> 00:16:29,490
ourselves just to get out there
and make it real because we were
287
00:16:29,490 --> 00:16:33,450
like as soon as we saw the
insight that it was just after
288
00:16:33,450 --> 00:16:37,410
Compass Box had celebrated their
twenty year anniversary and I
289
00:16:37,410 --> 00:16:41,690
was listening to John Glazer on
a podcast and I was like I just
290
00:16:41,690 --> 00:16:45,810
had this aha moment that.
I won't go into our origin
291
00:16:45,810 --> 00:16:48,250
story, but we were.
We fell in love with whiskey as
292
00:16:48,250 --> 00:16:52,210
bartenders in Scotland, and we
would spend our Sunday walking
293
00:16:52,210 --> 00:16:56,210
around Leaf, the old blending
district of Edinburgh, looking
294
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:59,010
at all the old warehouses,
trying to work out which brands
295
00:16:59,010 --> 00:17:00,290
might have been there and
whatever.
296
00:17:00,290 --> 00:17:05,170
We were total geeks and we had
joked about starting a leaf
297
00:17:05,490 --> 00:17:07,880
whiskey.
And then we all went off and got
298
00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:10,640
proper jobs and worked in the
industry and we're trying to do
299
00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,319
what we wanted to do in whiskey
from the inside and banging our
300
00:17:13,319 --> 00:17:15,640
head against the wall.
And then heard John Glaser
301
00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,720
talking about Compass Box 20
years after it had started.
302
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:22,520
And I was, I was like no one's
come since.
303
00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:25,520
They are still the new kids on
the block in blending.
304
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,600
But the world of whiskey has
changed so much in in that 20
305
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,280
year period.
So that's where we were like
306
00:17:32,280 --> 00:17:35,520
okay, let's go for this.
But I think.
307
00:17:35,850 --> 00:17:39,410
For us, as soon as we had that
realization that we could maybe
308
00:17:39,410 --> 00:17:45,770
do this, we got super paranoid
that if we didn't do it like now
309
00:17:46,370 --> 00:17:47,330
someone.
Else would.
310
00:17:47,610 --> 00:17:50,610
And they would do it first and
quicker.
311
00:17:50,610 --> 00:17:52,250
And we're definitely not the
first mover.
312
00:17:52,250 --> 00:17:57,290
We're 20 years after Compass
Books, but within the two years
313
00:17:57,290 --> 00:18:01,690
that we've launched, there's now
two or three other similar
314
00:18:01,770 --> 00:18:05,490
outfits in Scotland that are
trying to reappraise blending.
315
00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:09,120
The ones come from Beam Santori.
One's an independent, so we're
316
00:18:09,120 --> 00:18:13,760
really happy that we just went
for it quick and that meant
317
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,840
doing things the complete wrong
way around.
318
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,680
And it's that idea that having
something like I'm a bit of a
319
00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,160
procrastinator in the way I
work, like, I'll always wait for
320
00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,760
the perfect window of
opportunity to write this blog
321
00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,560
post or whatever.
And of course, it never happens.
322
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,840
But two kids and like work and a
company that's all over the
323
00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,620
place.
So the trick is to just start
324
00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:38,980
it, even if you have the
thought.
325
00:18:39,140 --> 00:18:41,540
It's like open a tab on the
mobile phone and.
326
00:18:41,540 --> 00:18:44,580
Start it so it's.
In your recent documents, and it
327
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:47,580
increases the likelihood even if
it's a.
328
00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:51,380
Pile of rubbish.
The first time you've just got
329
00:18:52,340 --> 00:18:55,260
all your thoughts down.
At least then you know that it's
330
00:18:55,260 --> 00:18:56,500
not starting something from
scratch.
331
00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,740
It's an editing job that you
need to do on it, or it's
332
00:18:58,820 --> 00:19:01,340
restructuring and that's how
things get done.
333
00:19:01,340 --> 00:19:03,340
But you wait for the perfect
time to do something.
334
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,800
And it will never come, so
you'll never do it.
335
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:10,160
And I think that was the biggest
thing is we've got one of our
336
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,320
cofounders.
Is Nick Ravenhall?
337
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:17,640
He is from New Zealand.
He's got some merry blood in
338
00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:22,040
him, but he's also like a world
championship lacrosse player and
339
00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,000
then coach and he brings that
like mentality to business where
340
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:28,800
it's like.
Just go.
341
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,160
And he has No Fear.
Like we've done personality
342
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,760
tests at previous companies
where you, you know, map how how
343
00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:36,680
like I was like why are we
always fighting?
344
00:19:37,120 --> 00:19:40,800
And he doesn't see fear, like he
just, it doesn't register on
345
00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:44,680
him.
So I see a lot of risk and fear
346
00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:48,400
in things and he's like, I've
already sent 5 emails and it's
347
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,400
in motion.
And then things happen, and I
348
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:54,890
think that's a good insight.
About how we started, because we
349
00:19:54,890 --> 00:19:58,090
talked about it for 20 years and
then one day we decided that we
350
00:19:58,090 --> 00:20:02,130
should probably make it real.
And within a week we had the
351
00:20:02,130 --> 00:20:04,010
business plan that Pete had
written.
352
00:20:04,370 --> 00:20:09,250
Nick had already sorted out some
supply and I was like, oh, the
353
00:20:09,250 --> 00:20:12,890
pressure is now on me to get the
packaging and bottle and brand
354
00:20:12,890 --> 00:20:14,450
work done.
It's because.
355
00:20:14,810 --> 00:20:17,530
It's already in motion, whereas
I would have just sat on it for
356
00:20:17,530 --> 00:20:20,730
another few weeks, so we.
Very much carried that momentum
357
00:20:20,770 --> 00:20:23,280
into.
The way we seeded in the on
358
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:29,800
trade, the off trade export,
just trying to what's the worst
359
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,560
that can happen and it was
during lockdown so it was a
360
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:34,760
little bit easier to get hold of
people.
361
00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,600
And we were just reaching out to
people saying this is what we
362
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,880
want to do.
This is what we're about, this
363
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,520
is.
Our vision for what we think
364
00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:49,400
this could be, and it's that
thing of like lead generation.
365
00:20:49,810 --> 00:20:53,170
Where you speak to 10 people,
one of them says, I can't help
366
00:20:53,170 --> 00:20:55,810
you, but I can put you in touch
with this person who might be
367
00:20:55,810 --> 00:20:58,290
able to.
And then you start again and
368
00:20:58,290 --> 00:21:01,730
it's it's not just like a
numbers game, but it's having
369
00:21:01,730 --> 00:21:10,370
the discipline and the self
belief to realize that every
370
00:21:10,370 --> 00:21:15,170
door that closes in your face
isn't the end, it's a potential
371
00:21:15,490 --> 00:21:17,530
new beginning.
I think you you say this.
372
00:21:17,650 --> 00:21:21,540
In some of your content.
Is There might be a bar that you
373
00:21:21,540 --> 00:21:24,860
really want to list your
product, but there's no point
374
00:21:24,860 --> 00:21:28,300
being in a bar if the only
reason they've listed your
375
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:33,580
product is your persistence.
And if they're not interested in
376
00:21:33,580 --> 00:21:35,580
stocking your product, it's a
waste of everyone's time.
377
00:21:35,940 --> 00:21:41,620
And sometimes no is the best
thing, because if they say yes,
378
00:21:42,500 --> 00:21:46,500
but they don't really invest
emotionally in the brand, it
379
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:48,880
becomes part of your.
Call list.
380
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,720
You're dropping in there once a
week.
381
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,600
You're scratching your head as
to like why.
382
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,600
If we not got from one bottle to
a case, what's going wrong?
383
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:58,960
You're questioning the brand.
They're just not interested.
384
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:03,520
And sometimes it's okay to just
call a spade a spade and say
385
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,160
okay that that it isn't working.
That's Okay.
386
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,120
And concentrate on the bars
where you can get that turnover
387
00:22:10,120 --> 00:22:13,960
and who are buying in
emotionally and who are giving
388
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,520
you time with their staff to
train them and tell them about
389
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,320
the brand.
And who are bringing you other
390
00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:21,800
opportunities to to grow the
business together.
391
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,200
If these relationships are like
a marriage you you'd much rather
392
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,960
be married to someone who's at
least got an interest in the
393
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:32,080
commitment with you, rather than
someone who might look for see
394
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,160
but has no interest in making.
I totally relate to what you're
395
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,920
saying.
It makes me think of my post
396
00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,510
that always creates a lot of
pros and cons.
397
00:22:42,510 --> 00:22:46,910
Is the 111 case in one bar is
better than 6 bottles and six
398
00:22:46,910 --> 00:22:49,190
bars.
So it's at the beginning you
399
00:22:49,190 --> 00:22:52,310
have to start doing those small
experiments because you don't
400
00:22:52,310 --> 00:22:55,870
actually know when it's going to
turn out nicely in terms of
401
00:22:55,870 --> 00:22:58,990
sellout.
But then I'm always struggling
402
00:22:58,990 --> 00:23:03,910
with brands trying to spread
across the city, especially
403
00:23:03,910 --> 00:23:06,710
because if you've got the
muscles now I'm talking like
404
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:10,310
more of a big brands kind of
situation, not as more brand.
405
00:23:10,650 --> 00:23:15,250
If you've got the muscle, you
can call up your wholesalers and
406
00:23:15,250 --> 00:23:18,570
make it available everywhere if
you want, but then it would just
407
00:23:18,570 --> 00:23:22,050
collect dust on the shelf.
So you may have achieved your
408
00:23:22,050 --> 00:23:26,970
monthly budget of sell in, but
sell out is never going to come
409
00:23:27,010 --> 00:23:30,370
and you're never going to sell
in again now.
410
00:23:30,890 --> 00:23:34,010
So when you are a small brand,
you don't have that problem
411
00:23:34,010 --> 00:23:38,450
because you don't have that big
power and muscles in the market,
412
00:23:38,930 --> 00:23:42,900
but you also have less resources
and less time resources because
413
00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:47,020
then it's only Duncan in that
city going around.
414
00:23:47,020 --> 00:23:51,180
So it's even more crucial to be
effective and say I'd rather
415
00:23:51,180 --> 00:23:56,060
spend time with these 10 bars
that buy constantly, every week,
416
00:23:56,500 --> 00:24:02,340
repeatedly, rather than having
100 bars that I need to call on
417
00:24:02,940 --> 00:24:06,460
all across the city.
And it's a big city and it's
418
00:24:06,460 --> 00:24:10,020
basically a waste of time now.
And I'm bridging to my next
419
00:24:10,020 --> 00:24:13,820
question which is woven to this
example.
420
00:24:13,820 --> 00:24:16,540
You can talk more generically
about your previous experience
421
00:24:16,540 --> 00:24:19,780
as well.
It, it starts from the liquid,
422
00:24:19,780 --> 00:24:22,860
There is a liquid, there is
always marketing terms now the
423
00:24:22,860 --> 00:24:25,500
extrinsics and the intrinsics of
the brand.
424
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:29,900
Now some brands are more flash,
more flashy and look at me kind
425
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:34,700
of thing less about the liquid,
some are more inner liquid focus
426
00:24:34,700 --> 00:24:36,940
than less about the packaging
and so on.
427
00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:42,830
No as but when when I think of
woven is very much about certain
428
00:24:43,350 --> 00:24:49,710
flavors, certain taste profile.
So you go for a certain type of
429
00:24:49,710 --> 00:24:54,070
people that depending on which
bottle it is that like certain
430
00:24:54,070 --> 00:24:57,310
type of things It could be I
don't know like P did or less P
431
00:24:57,310 --> 00:24:59,430
did or it can be different kind
of thing.
432
00:24:59,430 --> 00:25:04,270
So how does that translate into
a bar list for example on where
433
00:25:04,270 --> 00:25:07,820
to go and hunt?
Because they won't work
434
00:25:07,820 --> 00:25:11,540
everywhere now they will work
only in certain type of places
435
00:25:11,540 --> 00:25:14,980
with certain type of people.
I think what we want to do, and
436
00:25:14,980 --> 00:25:20,260
there's not one piece of data
that says going into Scotch
437
00:25:20,260 --> 00:25:24,700
whiskey blending is a good idea.
It's a category that's losing.
438
00:25:25,180 --> 00:25:29,260
But we looked at that and just
maybe it's the way our brains
439
00:25:29,260 --> 00:25:31,980
are wired.
I'd come through like challenger
440
00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:35,140
brands essentially in any
stagnant category.
441
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,280
I'm looking for the opportunity
where some people are looking
442
00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:41,040
for the exit and that was very
much.
443
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,280
We were whiskey lovers.
We talked about distillery, but
444
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,920
we were like all the problems
that we see in whiskey are
445
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,160
already being fixed by the new
wave of craft distillers about
446
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,040
flavor over mass production
etcetera.
447
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,960
But no one apart from Compass
Books had done it in blending.
448
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,040
And I was like, that's where we
should go, which is where we.
449
00:26:03,730 --> 00:26:06,290
We talked about it for 20 years,
so we had half an idea, but.
450
00:26:06,530 --> 00:26:10,730
We.
Therefore, the stories told in
451
00:26:10,730 --> 00:26:16,010
Blend are usually consistency.
Brand Johnny Walker.
452
00:26:16,410 --> 00:26:18,170
You tell the story about Johnny
Walker.
453
00:26:19,090 --> 00:26:22,370
Some of it is a liquid story,
but it's very much a story of
454
00:26:22,770 --> 00:26:27,730
scale, consistency, secret
recipes, opaque, no
455
00:26:27,730 --> 00:26:31,370
transparency.
And it's like a story of
456
00:26:31,370 --> 00:26:34,810
success.
We wanted to tell a very
457
00:26:34,810 --> 00:26:39,490
different story, which was using
some of the craft levers, you
458
00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:43,610
know, about storytelling, about
flavor, about liquid, about why
459
00:26:43,610 --> 00:26:47,010
we were doing it, celebrating.
And this is because we were.
460
00:26:47,730 --> 00:26:51,730
Our first four whiskeys took us
to 1000 bottles in total.
461
00:26:52,210 --> 00:26:56,170
That was obviously a problem,
but we tried to lean into it and
462
00:26:56,170 --> 00:27:00,250
make it an advantage by saying
this is what blending.
463
00:27:00,550 --> 00:27:03,750
Could be.
If done at this scale, we can do
464
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:07,590
things that other people just
can't or won't, the way we
465
00:27:07,590 --> 00:27:11,630
blended, the way we reduced.
So almost by accident, we were
466
00:27:11,630 --> 00:27:15,350
borrowing techniques from cognac
production or Japanese whiskey
467
00:27:15,350 --> 00:27:17,590
making.
And we were like.
468
00:27:18,270 --> 00:27:23,030
As soon as we introduced them as
blends, the moment we started
469
00:27:23,030 --> 00:27:26,830
telling people about the liquids
and flavor and technique,
470
00:27:27,390 --> 00:27:30,440
suddenly they weren't.
Approaching them like blends
471
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:34,040
anymore, they were holding them
up and looking at them like they
472
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,680
were a fine single ball and we
were like.
473
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,040
That's the shift that we're
trying to do in this category.
474
00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:44,840
So we purposefully made a lot of
our storytelling introduction
475
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:50,120
tactics like start at the liquid
and work back towards the brand.
476
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Because if we just said, oh,
it's a new blended whiskey
477
00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:56,000
called woven, people would have
gone blends.
478
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,780
Yeah, I know blends are all.
The same.
479
00:27:59,020 --> 00:28:03,940
There are consistent, huge mass
production and it's a ridiculous
480
00:28:03,940 --> 00:28:08,540
thing to think that we can
overturn category perceptions
481
00:28:08,540 --> 00:28:14,020
like that's a 25 year mission.
But that's essentially what
482
00:28:14,020 --> 00:28:18,420
we're trying to do is say that
for us anyway.
483
00:28:19,060 --> 00:28:22,420
There's a lot of stuff that
hasn't been right with blending
484
00:28:22,420 --> 00:28:27,140
in the past, but it's not
blending per se, it's more.
485
00:28:27,510 --> 00:28:33,870
The way blending was led through
certain dynamics or certain I
486
00:28:33,870 --> 00:28:37,870
suppose industry trends and
techniques that became rife and
487
00:28:37,990 --> 00:28:42,670
the scale essentially and so
we're trying to start a
488
00:28:42,670 --> 00:28:46,510
conversation and.
Of course, the first thing
489
00:28:46,510 --> 00:28:50,830
people talk about in craft
products is liquid and flavor
490
00:28:50,830 --> 00:28:55,150
and the story and the why and
all of that's really important
491
00:28:55,150 --> 00:28:56,590
to us.
So we thought that.
492
00:28:56,980 --> 00:29:00,940
We should anchor the brand in
those things rather than trying
493
00:29:00,940 --> 00:29:07,100
to make the brand about personal
success or any other sort of non
494
00:29:07,620 --> 00:29:10,620
liquid related thing.
And that works because the
495
00:29:10,620 --> 00:29:14,620
people we're speaking to,
independent retailers or bars,
496
00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:18,980
that's something they can get on
board with because we're not
497
00:29:18,980 --> 00:29:21,780
going to go in and win a
commercial conversation right
498
00:29:21,780 --> 00:29:25,810
now, our sales pitch is not.
Here's the category data showing
499
00:29:25,810 --> 00:29:28,290
that you should have more
blended whiskey on your back
500
00:29:28,290 --> 00:29:29,970
part, because it's the opposite
is true.
501
00:29:30,530 --> 00:29:32,170
So we have to win.
Like.
502
00:29:32,170 --> 00:29:34,850
Hearts and minds and pull at
their heartstrings and let them
503
00:29:34,850 --> 00:29:40,210
taste it and discover it.
And buy in to the vision or the
504
00:29:40,210 --> 00:29:45,290
mission at an emotional level
and a liquid level because we
505
00:29:45,290 --> 00:29:50,810
need them to play like the avant
gardist for us and say.
506
00:29:51,180 --> 00:29:53,780
When someone comes in and orders
like a standard single.
507
00:29:53,780 --> 00:29:59,620
Malt that is like everywhere,
but not amazing or there's not
508
00:29:59,620 --> 00:30:04,900
much excitement about it.
We need them to start diverting
509
00:30:04,900 --> 00:30:08,660
people and say, oh, if you like
that this is actually a blend
510
00:30:08,660 --> 00:30:12,660
but and it's that but and we
need them to then follow in with
511
00:30:12,660 --> 00:30:18,420
like three things about liquid
or us or the ethos that
512
00:30:18,420 --> 00:30:23,220
convinced that.
Customer to go against the grain
513
00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:30,100
to use the pun and maybe give
blending a chance, which is and
514
00:30:30,220 --> 00:30:32,140
that must have been I worked on
Hendricks.
515
00:30:32,140 --> 00:30:35,420
For most of my career, at
William Grant's, they did the
516
00:30:35,420 --> 00:30:37,860
same thing.
Gin was in the doldrums, Bombay
517
00:30:37,860 --> 00:30:42,180
Sapphire had come out and
Hendricks was that challenger
518
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:46,940
brand in a category that was I
think double or triple the price
519
00:30:46,940 --> 00:30:49,100
of sort of standard gin when it
launched.
520
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,520
And no one was asking for super
premium gin.
521
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:57,720
And I think they did the similar
thing where they had a liquid
522
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:00,800
story, they had a recognizable
bottle.
523
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,920
They had the right people and
they had to get the right people
524
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:09,200
on board early to then start
seeding that message and that,
525
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,600
oh, maybe gin could be
interesting or maybe you should
526
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,120
try this gin or we've got this
new thing.
527
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,960
It's gin, but it's not like the
gins, you know, and.
528
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,800
I think it's maybe easier for
challenger brands in the market
529
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:27,120
because they can come.
And I don't mean.
530
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,680
Disrupt in like brew dog way,
but like people are.
531
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:34,720
People go to bars to have
experiences and offering
532
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:39,120
something new or different
that's maybe slightly off pieced
533
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,040
like it is an experience.
And that's where natural wines
534
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,160
coming in to to replace
incumbent wine or craft beer
535
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,240
came in to replace beer.
Saying, oh, it's like that thing
536
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,640
that you're comfortable with,
but it's over here.
537
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,080
No one wants to be middle of the
road.
538
00:31:56,280 --> 00:32:01,080
Mainstream, obvious, like.
People define themselves through
539
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:06,000
these slight quirks in their
choices, and I think spirits
540
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:10,360
offers people that.
Divergence that allows them to
541
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:15,480
say I'm a this drinker miscal
type of person or a Negroni or
542
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:17,720
an oldfashioned or a Margarita
or whatever.
543
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:21,600
Like it's easy to do that.
And to your point like for
544
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,800
example when I first tried
Hendrix, I mentioned in another
545
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,400
episode, so I won't go long on
that one.
546
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,480
But I was not drinking gin and I
started drinking gin because of
547
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,740
that because it was the unusual
gin and and and all my friends
548
00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:37,900
that were not drinking gin, I
got them into drinking Hendrix.
549
00:32:38,380 --> 00:32:40,660
I should have got money back in
the days.
550
00:32:40,820 --> 00:32:43,780
You know how many people I got
into gin and Sonny with Hendrix.
551
00:32:43,780 --> 00:32:48,300
But it's very often like what
you say is like taking a an
552
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,900
excuse or a no.
To your previous point about
553
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:55,340
sometimes the no, it is your
ally rather than your enemy
554
00:32:55,860 --> 00:32:58,660
because that's what people can
relate to.
555
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,900
And then it's how I'm having a
gin and Sonic, oh, I don't drink
556
00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:04,340
gin.
Oh, if you don't drink gin then
557
00:33:04,340 --> 00:33:07,420
you should try this one.
And then to your point it would
558
00:33:07,420 --> 00:33:11,420
be I'm just making it up but it
would be like, no, I drink, I
559
00:33:11,420 --> 00:33:14,500
only drink single malt whiskey
and that's like I don't do, I
560
00:33:14,500 --> 00:33:16,460
don't do blends.
I don't like blends.
561
00:33:16,540 --> 00:33:20,180
Oh, if you don't like blends
then you should try woven kind
562
00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:23,060
of thing.
And it's almost like that bridge
563
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:29,660
that fishes from a category
pool, a pool that it that is the
564
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:31,020
opposite of what you would think
of.
565
00:33:31,020 --> 00:33:35,980
So listening to you, I think
that probably your target is
566
00:33:35,980 --> 00:33:40,260
actually single mold drinkers
rather than blend blended
567
00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:43,500
whiskey drinkers, which is
counterintuitive because it's a
568
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:47,140
blended whiskey.
But that's the way to approach
569
00:33:47,140 --> 00:33:51,400
the issue because you are, you
get people off guard because
570
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,400
then it's okay.
Let me check this out.
571
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,360
Let me give it a try.
And then it becomes, it ignites
572
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:01,600
the conversation and it drives
something, yeah.
573
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:06,200
I actually think it's something
that the best brands do really
574
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:11,719
well because we sit in our ivory
tower and brand world obsessing
575
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,639
over the individual words on a
PowerPoint slide about what this
576
00:34:15,639 --> 00:34:19,000
brand is about, but then you get
to the on trade.
577
00:34:19,449 --> 00:34:25,730
And bartenders, They are like
walking, talking Wikipedia's.
578
00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:29,969
They have to learn so much stuff
about so many brands, memorize
579
00:34:29,969 --> 00:34:34,650
the cocktail list, know how to
do hospitality, have like spider
580
00:34:34,650 --> 00:34:39,370
senses on like the air con, the
music, the service, the
581
00:34:39,370 --> 00:34:44,370
cocktails and a gantry of 200
spirits behind them and a wine
582
00:34:44,370 --> 00:34:47,489
list and beers.
It's crazy if we think that
583
00:34:47,489 --> 00:34:50,820
they're going to remember.
More than two things, three
584
00:34:50,820 --> 00:34:53,020
things about your brand if
you're lucky.
585
00:34:53,659 --> 00:34:57,380
And so I think some brands are
very good at this, some brands
586
00:34:57,660 --> 00:35:02,860
don't even know exists, but you
need to give shorthand to a
587
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:06,900
bartender so that they look at
your product and they think
588
00:35:07,740 --> 00:35:13,500
either what the serve is or or
goes like where it plays in the
589
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:16,730
category even.
Like a bar.
590
00:35:16,730 --> 00:35:18,890
Will be exposed.
To let's say 10 different gin
591
00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:22,130
brands trainings.
And none of those gin brands
592
00:35:22,170 --> 00:35:26,570
will often talk about the other
gin brands in the bar.
593
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:30,370
Whereas when I did gin
trainings, I would go in and
594
00:35:30,370 --> 00:35:34,610
make sure that I noted down
which other gins sat.
595
00:35:34,610 --> 00:35:37,210
Around our bottle.
In the bar so I could make the
596
00:35:37,210 --> 00:35:40,370
training really useful to them
and say, listen, you've got
597
00:35:40,370 --> 00:35:44,450
these five gins, this one is
your Super Juniper.
598
00:35:44,790 --> 00:35:47,550
Classic, dry.
And then where we are is
599
00:35:47,550 --> 00:35:49,790
somewhere in the middle.
And then you've got the more new
600
00:35:49,790 --> 00:35:55,150
western floral styles here.
So your opportunity, if you want
601
00:35:55,150 --> 00:35:58,510
to push someone to our brand or
if you want to offer them a
602
00:35:58,510 --> 00:36:01,710
slightly different experience to
that mainstream brand that sits
603
00:36:01,710 --> 00:36:04,590
next to it, then this is where
you pushed them.
604
00:36:04,870 --> 00:36:08,550
And of course, like some of it
was tactical and like the evil
605
00:36:08,550 --> 00:36:11,350
marketeer in me now realizes
that.
606
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,240
It's maybe a slightly unfair
tactic because you're in a
607
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:18,840
position of trust and training,
but to give them a vision of the
608
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,680
category with your.
Brand either at the heart of it,
609
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,760
or in relation to these, or in
relation.
610
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:29,080
To these cocktails.
And it was like, there's 100
611
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:32,080
things I could wish that they
remembered from the training,
612
00:36:33,240 --> 00:36:37,880
but the top two would be like
makes a great martini, get
613
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:43,550
served with this garnish.
And is a credible upsell from
614
00:36:43,550 --> 00:36:47,550
these three gins around it.
And and if I could get those
615
00:36:47,550 --> 00:36:50,190
three things over the line, none
of which were about the history
616
00:36:50,190 --> 00:36:54,750
of the brand or the family or
whatever that has equipped them
617
00:36:55,590 --> 00:37:02,670
to have success with the brand.
And I think we have this
618
00:37:03,070 --> 00:37:07,830
impression in spirits that
people have loads of time and
619
00:37:07,830 --> 00:37:10,390
loads of attention.
But they don't.
620
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:15,910
They look for shorthand, and the
main thing that people at point
621
00:37:15,910 --> 00:37:18,390
of purchase are thinking is I
don't know what to order.
622
00:37:18,390 --> 00:37:21,790
I think it's 75% of people in
the entree approach the bar with
623
00:37:21,830 --> 00:37:24,190
no idea what they're going to
order.
624
00:37:25,230 --> 00:37:28,670
And then all of a sudden it's
like you've got the attention of
625
00:37:28,670 --> 00:37:33,270
the bartender panic.
Sets in, it's I don't want to be
626
00:37:33,270 --> 00:37:36,270
laughed at.
I don't want to buy something I
627
00:37:36,270 --> 00:37:39,160
don't want to like.
Cripple myself by spending too
628
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,400
much money by accident.
So you look for Beacon brands,
629
00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,640
and that's why brands like
Hendricks do so well.
630
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:48,960
Because it's like known.
It's everywhere.
631
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:51,000
It's trusted.
It's got an iconic bottle.
632
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:54,200
Everyone knows it's not the most
expensive, but it's also not the
633
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:55,840
cheapest.
You're going to walk back, put
634
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:57,640
it on the table, and no one's
going to laugh at you.
635
00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:02,280
You might not be the avant-garde
gym curator amongst your
636
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,840
friends, but it's a safe choice.
And that's what people.
637
00:38:06,190 --> 00:38:12,950
I believe are looking for, but
you can make your brand safer by
638
00:38:13,590 --> 00:38:16,830
having bartenders understand
where it sits.
639
00:38:16,830 --> 00:38:19,230
And I think Monkey Shoulder,
which I can see over your
640
00:38:19,230 --> 00:38:22,110
shoulder in the video.
They do a great job of it,
641
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:24,670
right, because it's a blended
malt Scotch.
642
00:38:25,350 --> 00:38:29,270
But they tell bartenders they do
a tasting, and sometimes they're
643
00:38:29,270 --> 00:38:33,580
tasting it next to Maker's Mark.
And they had this internal
644
00:38:33,580 --> 00:38:38,300
mantra that was like sea makers
think monkey and it meant that
645
00:38:38,380 --> 00:38:42,460
if a sales guy walked into a.
Bar and saw that.
646
00:38:42,820 --> 00:38:44,980
They were having success with
Maker's Mark.
647
00:38:45,460 --> 00:38:49,020
It was validation that Monkey
Shoulder would be a good go.
648
00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:51,660
You know there was a
conversation to be had because
649
00:38:52,740 --> 00:38:56,900
flavor profile and of course
that's smart thinking from a big
650
00:38:56,900 --> 00:38:59,580
international drinks company
that are thinking cross category
651
00:38:59,740 --> 00:39:02,410
because they're like.
Who are we going to steal from
652
00:39:03,490 --> 00:39:05,850
Bourbon?
People looking to graduate from
653
00:39:05,850 --> 00:39:11,090
Bourbon into Scotch makers has a
good loyal following, and if we
654
00:39:11,090 --> 00:39:17,090
can train bartenders of swap Out
a Bourbon for Monkey Shoulder,
655
00:39:17,530 --> 00:39:20,010
it's shorthand for them.
It's so easy to remember someone
656
00:39:20,010 --> 00:39:22,770
orders old fashioned or Mint
Julep they go.
657
00:39:23,610 --> 00:39:26,490
I'm feeling a bit crazy.
Do you want to try it with this
658
00:39:26,690 --> 00:39:29,810
funny what you say because I see
I have exactly an example of a
659
00:39:29,810 --> 00:39:32,810
bar in Pride.
They used to do oldfashioned or
660
00:39:32,810 --> 00:39:35,850
make it mark and now they do it
on on on monkey shoulder.
661
00:39:35,850 --> 00:39:38,890
So that's a spot on.
What I like about what you're
662
00:39:38,890 --> 00:39:44,010
saying is that there's a few
things that one way that I see
663
00:39:44,010 --> 00:39:46,650
them, a big geography fun.
And now we are talking like I'm
664
00:39:46,690 --> 00:39:48,330
sitting in pride, you're sitting
in Adelaide.
665
00:39:48,330 --> 00:39:52,530
So we are a few hours apart from
each other and a few kilometers
666
00:39:52,570 --> 00:39:56,760
apart and it's all about how you
see when you look at the map now
667
00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,160
there's if you look at from a
European perspective, Europe is
668
00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:01,880
in the middle.
If you look at it from an
669
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,040
Australia perspective, that's a
little bit of a challenge
670
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:06,280
because Australia is never in
the center of any map.
671
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,760
But if you look at it from a US
perspective or from an Asian
672
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,560
perspective, like perspective
totally changes not.
673
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:16,480
And that's where you set the
focus and the epicenter of that
674
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,040
map now.
But to your point, whatever
675
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,040
brand you're working with.
Trying to navigate who's left,
676
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:29,280
right, up and down north-south,
east, West kind of thing of on
677
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:35,680
that back bar map and try to
help navigate that bartender
678
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,320
that you're having a training on
to to really say, OK, this is
679
00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:42,360
how I play with these brands and
it's not, I mean you were saying
680
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:45,480
like it was a bit of an unfair
way, but I don't think it's
681
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:47,280
unfair.
It's just a matter of how to
682
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:50,520
where you centered the map kind
of thing now because then
683
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:54,360
something else will come and
then Hendricks would be on A to
684
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,320
the West of somebody or to the
north of somebody and it
685
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,680
wouldn't be in the center.
But.
686
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,720
So it's very interesting and
what I hear from your
687
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:07,640
conversation is that there is
something to be thought about
688
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:13,680
liquid first rather than brand
1st and category first because
689
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:18,400
there's always this thing like
rum fights rum, Scotch fights,
690
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,790
Scotch blends, fights blends.
It's more like OK if you drink
691
00:41:23,790 --> 00:41:26,430
that kind of I I remember at
some point I was having
692
00:41:26,430 --> 00:41:29,750
conversation to somebody with
somebody that there was they had
693
00:41:29,750 --> 00:41:33,110
the tequila, I think it's what
it's called story with tequila
694
00:41:33,190 --> 00:41:37,230
from a guy, Michael Ballenstein,
I think it's his name and he was
695
00:41:37,230 --> 00:41:40,590
saying like it's aged in Scotch
barrels.
696
00:41:40,950 --> 00:41:43,070
It's a tequila that is age in
Scotch barrels.
697
00:41:43,150 --> 00:41:47,510
So I'm approaching Scotch
drinkers and bars that sells
698
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:51,530
Scotch whiskey rather than
tequila bars and Mexican
699
00:41:51,530 --> 00:41:56,810
restaurants because that's where
I'm taking the inspiration from
700
00:41:57,730 --> 00:42:02,730
So very often is to your example
about Scotch versus bourbon or
701
00:42:02,730 --> 00:42:07,570
it could be Gene versus vodka or
Mesca or Gene versus tequila or
702
00:42:07,570 --> 00:42:11,930
tequila and Mesca because big
companies think in silos and
703
00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:15,210
it's like we're fighting rums,
who's the rum was?
704
00:42:15,250 --> 00:42:18,580
Who's the competitive sets?
But consumer don't think it that
705
00:42:18,580 --> 00:42:20,300
way.
The consumer thing taste
706
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:23,780
profile.
I like this kind of sweet ish
707
00:42:23,780 --> 00:42:25,460
stuff.
I like bitter.
708
00:42:25,820 --> 00:42:30,220
I like sour.
I like certain different ways
709
00:42:30,740 --> 00:42:34,540
And also to to your previous
point, the importance of social
710
00:42:34,540 --> 00:42:37,060
currency.
So allowed, no matter how
711
00:42:37,060 --> 00:42:42,100
trained people are, whether you
can be a award-winning bartender
712
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:45,790
or like a guy or a girl with a
job that is outside of the
713
00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:48,190
industry.
But when you are at that dinner
714
00:42:48,190 --> 00:42:52,630
or at that after work, if you
can have those two worlds that
715
00:42:52,630 --> 00:42:55,750
make you look cool and make you
look, you know about what you're
716
00:42:55,750 --> 00:43:00,070
doing, That's the easy way.
And I see all brands that win
717
00:43:00,550 --> 00:43:03,710
are the ones that are at to your
point like safe choices.
718
00:43:03,710 --> 00:43:05,830
Think of an upper spritz as an
example.
719
00:43:06,070 --> 00:43:09,150
Nobody's going to be, unless you
go to a fancy cocktail buzz,
720
00:43:09,150 --> 00:43:13,880
nobody's going to get pointed at
for ordering a spritz, right, or
721
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,120
for doing a Gene and Sonic.
It's challenging.
722
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:22,160
But if you can do it in a nice
way that you actually give
723
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:25,280
ammunition to somebody to say,
oh, I'm going to look cool
724
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,120
because I'm going to bring this
bottle to this dinner.
725
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:32,520
And I'm going to explain it in a
very short way with one
726
00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:38,040
sentence, what this is about and
why the person I'm gifting it to
727
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,740
knows about it, then it's a win.
Win for everyone when you make
728
00:43:42,740 --> 00:43:45,500
it too complicated, that's where
brands struggle.
729
00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:47,980
And then is what was it about
that brand kind of thing?
730
00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:52,140
Yeah, I think it comes down to
relevance at the end of the day,
731
00:43:52,220 --> 00:43:55,060
like everyone thinks their
brand's going to be super
732
00:43:55,060 --> 00:43:59,660
relevant in a bar.
That's not necessarily objective
733
00:43:59,660 --> 00:44:02,740
truth.
So you need to find ways of
734
00:44:02,740 --> 00:44:07,380
making your brand relevant
within the category within the.
735
00:44:08,620 --> 00:44:10,580
And that is the stories you
tell.
736
00:44:11,690 --> 00:44:15,450
They have to be either so
interesting that they're
737
00:44:15,450 --> 00:44:18,930
interesting in themselves or
interesting in the context of
738
00:44:18,930 --> 00:44:22,810
what else is available or
happening in that bar, so that
739
00:44:23,570 --> 00:44:27,890
you have a role in the drama
that unfolds between bartender
740
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:30,890
and consumer.
Because it's like being at a
741
00:44:31,130 --> 00:44:33,770
party.
There's loads of people, but how
742
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:35,330
do you make sure you're the
guest?
743
00:44:35,330 --> 00:44:39,210
That the bartender.
Introduces to their guest.
744
00:44:39,610 --> 00:44:42,780
You need a hoot.
In the brand and it might be a
745
00:44:42,780 --> 00:44:46,300
serve and the easiest one for
brands which I don't understand
746
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:50,220
why more brands don't do.
It's like, oh it makes an
747
00:44:50,220 --> 00:44:54,380
unusually good old fashioned or
it makes an unusually good
748
00:44:54,980 --> 00:44:59,140
mojito and it's like the next
time someone orders mojito light
749
00:44:59,140 --> 00:45:01,020
bulb goes off in the bartender's
mind.
750
00:45:01,460 --> 00:45:04,540
Oh, I'm going to try it with
that one because they said it
751
00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:07,900
makes an unusually good martini
and.
752
00:45:08,560 --> 00:45:11,280
It's as simple as that.
But what you've done is provided
753
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:15,320
a hook on your brand that isn't
the heritage, the history, the
754
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:19,680
story, the distillation process.
It's a practical thing that they
755
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:25,440
can literally grab hold of and
say I have a good authority from
756
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:30,840
the brand owner that this makes
a really good and if you pick a
757
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:35,080
slightly avant-garde cocktail
like a paper plane or something,
758
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,370
that's like trending.
I was writing a a post a couple
759
00:45:38,370 --> 00:45:42,370
of days ago about this exactly.
When there's a tendency of brand
760
00:45:42,370 --> 00:45:46,970
owners choosing their target
cocktails from an ad agency kind
761
00:45:46,970 --> 00:45:49,770
of perspective, this is cool.
So you should go for this one
762
00:45:50,250 --> 00:45:54,570
kind of thing.
And to your point, like the
763
00:45:54,570 --> 00:45:56,810
classics are classics for a
reason.
764
00:45:57,250 --> 00:46:01,130
So if you take, whether it's an
old classic or a modern classic
765
00:46:01,130 --> 00:46:05,380
like the penicillin or porn star
martini or like stuff that is
766
00:46:05,380 --> 00:46:08,980
perceived as a classic, but it
is actually not that old, then
767
00:46:08,980 --> 00:46:13,300
you make it much easier.
And also sometimes it's like
768
00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:17,260
when you try, what I try to
convey as a message is that you
769
00:46:17,260 --> 00:46:20,060
don't know what's going to be.
Take it vermouth as an example.
770
00:46:20,420 --> 00:46:24,980
You don't know if it's going to
be great with Oliver dear, or
771
00:46:25,060 --> 00:46:31,500
with Negroni, or with Manhattan,
but your liquid proposition must
772
00:46:32,020 --> 00:46:36,040
skew towards some of these.
And maybe it it goes well with a
773
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:41,360
whiskey, or it goes better with
gin or so on and try to put it
774
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,640
there on the table and then shut
up and listen to the bartender
775
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:48,320
and let them.
Because if you dictate,
776
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:52,120
bartenders are often prima
donnas now and it's who are you
777
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:54,440
to tell me how to do an
oldfashioned?
778
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:56,240
Are you crazy?
Like you're coming here with
779
00:46:56,240 --> 00:47:00,680
your with a white shirt trying
to teach me how to do an
780
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,480
oldfashioned?
But if you say people usually do
781
00:47:04,020 --> 00:47:07,540
like great oldfashioned or
whatever, and then you lay down
782
00:47:07,540 --> 00:47:11,940
like a couple of cocktails and
then tested in 10 bars going
783
00:47:11,940 --> 00:47:15,900
back to insides, like you don't
need a huge in size budget for
784
00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:18,580
that.
And there's actually out of 10
785
00:47:18,580 --> 00:47:22,780
bars where I dropped this three
cocktails, they all picked the
786
00:47:22,780 --> 00:47:27,260
Boulevard there.
So I'm going to go to the next
787
00:47:27,260 --> 00:47:31,140
10 saying that the Boulevard
there is the preferred cocktail
788
00:47:31,140 --> 00:47:35,520
with this, because it's not
coming from me or my inner
789
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:40,960
circle and my eco chamber, but
it comes from a handful of cool
790
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:44,120
bartenders from this city that
actually told me that.
791
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,680
And it's about telling them what
your.
792
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:51,960
Product does exactly.
For them.
793
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,880
It's not what your product is.
And being able to say something
794
00:47:56,880 --> 00:48:01,560
like the thing that people love
about this whiskey is.
795
00:48:02,110 --> 00:48:05,670
Mouthfeel.
It's oily and waxy, and so when
796
00:48:05,670 --> 00:48:08,830
you make cocktails with it, it
makes a Manhattan.
797
00:48:08,830 --> 00:48:13,830
But instead of being like the
spicy ryled Manhattan, you get
798
00:48:13,830 --> 00:48:17,630
this soft mouth coating.
Oily Manhattan.
799
00:48:18,110 --> 00:48:22,030
That's the stuff bartenders
remember, because they're like,
800
00:48:22,030 --> 00:48:26,030
oh, I want to make an oily, soft
Manhattan as opposed to a
801
00:48:26,230 --> 00:48:29,670
classic rye Manhattan.
This is a tool.
802
00:48:30,020 --> 00:48:33,380
That serves my purpose with that
goal, and they might not have
803
00:48:33,540 --> 00:48:36,460
even known that they wanted to
do that.
804
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:40,660
But you tell them something that
they aren't aware of, suddenly
805
00:48:40,660 --> 00:48:42,700
their ears prick up.
You're not just talking about
806
00:48:42,700 --> 00:48:45,980
your branch.
You're empowering them to do
807
00:48:45,980 --> 00:48:51,020
something that you're assuming
they might want to do, and
808
00:48:51,580 --> 00:48:56,020
suddenly you've delivered value
in that conversation rather than
809
00:48:56,020 --> 00:48:59,750
just product messaging.
But yeah, I think the serve
810
00:48:59,750 --> 00:49:02,430
thing is crazy because everyone
wants a perfect serve.
811
00:49:02,430 --> 00:49:05,750
Everyone wants a ritual serve,
everyone wants to make their
812
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:07,430
version of the Hendrickson
clinic.
813
00:49:07,990 --> 00:49:13,710
But a lot of the work I do in
like Agency World is explaining
814
00:49:13,710 --> 00:49:17,790
to people that a perfect serve
is not just a drink, It's
815
00:49:17,790 --> 00:49:22,790
actually an ecosystem of things
that relates to education,
816
00:49:22,790 --> 00:49:25,510
training customers, needs,
states.
817
00:49:25,790 --> 00:49:30,030
What's practical?
And then how you activate it and
818
00:49:30,230 --> 00:49:35,350
how you talk about it.
And it's, as you said, bars
819
00:49:35,350 --> 00:49:38,070
don't like being dictated to,
especially when it comes to
820
00:49:38,070 --> 00:49:39,470
things they have to spend money
on.
821
00:49:39,550 --> 00:49:41,870
So like, Oh no, if you want to
serve our brand, you have to go
822
00:49:41,870 --> 00:49:44,390
out and buy these 12 different
types of fruit.
823
00:49:44,470 --> 00:49:48,070
Because this is how we serve our
gin and tonic, and brands get
824
00:49:48,070 --> 00:49:50,030
really upset when they walk into
a bar and they're like, no,
825
00:49:50,030 --> 00:49:54,190
you're serving our drink wrong.
So I think Hendrix was a bit of
826
00:49:54,190 --> 00:49:57,310
a Unicorn with cucumber.
It works at a liquid level.
827
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,560
But it still, I think we're
going back like 10 years.
828
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:06,240
Hendricks was 15 years old or
something and they did some
829
00:50:06,240 --> 00:50:08,600
research in the UK and everyone
thought that it was a runaway
830
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,880
success.
It still only had 60% compliance
831
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:16,200
with the cucumber serve and so
there and started like a huge
832
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,280
operation to make sure as the
brand was deepening its
833
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:23,520
footprint into more mainstream.
Places that the serve.
834
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,410
Went with it.
And of course.
835
00:50:25,410 --> 00:50:28,050
That's you don't get that just
by asking.
836
00:50:28,050 --> 00:50:31,650
You have to come up with
consumer campaigns, with POS,
837
00:50:31,650 --> 00:50:33,770
with merchandise like strategies
to go.
838
00:50:33,770 --> 00:50:37,330
And it goes back to what's in it
for them.
839
00:50:37,690 --> 00:50:41,450
Because if you explain that the
cucumber to this example
840
00:50:41,730 --> 00:50:45,890
enhances some flavors because
there's actual cucumber in the
841
00:50:45,890 --> 00:50:49,410
gin, then it's one thing.
But then if you come up with a
842
00:50:49,410 --> 00:50:55,030
random flower or veggie or
fruits that has nothing to do
843
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:57,550
with the recipe, just because it
looks cool on a glass, because
844
00:50:57,550 --> 00:51:02,950
your agency told you to do that,
because it's nice on Instagram
845
00:51:02,950 --> 00:51:07,030
because it's Instagramable, then
it doesn't make any sense now.
846
00:51:07,110 --> 00:51:10,910
And also it's about okay if you
serve it with the cucumber
847
00:51:11,550 --> 00:51:14,510
people, our drink Hendrix and
they expect the cucumber.
848
00:51:14,510 --> 00:51:19,470
So by not giving the cucumber in
that serve, you are doing it a
849
00:51:19,470 --> 00:51:23,510
disservice to your customers
that next time I'm going to go
850
00:51:23,950 --> 00:51:28,910
on a random mainstream gin
because it's not worth paying
851
00:51:28,910 --> 00:51:32,430
more for anymore because they
want to be looked.
852
00:51:33,150 --> 00:51:36,470
Yeah, they want their gin, gin
and Sonic, you know, showcase
853
00:51:36,470 --> 00:51:38,470
the cucumber because they like
that flavor.
854
00:51:38,470 --> 00:51:41,950
Maybe they don't like the
juniper part of the gin and
855
00:51:41,950 --> 00:51:45,990
Sonic, there is a reason why
certain things work.
856
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:49,550
But then if you go there with
the policeman hats on.
857
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:52,960
Oh, you should do the cucumber.
Where's the cucumber?
858
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,560
You're not compliant.
Okay.
859
00:51:54,560 --> 00:51:56,640
I'm going to talk to the brand
ambassador.
860
00:51:56,640 --> 00:51:59,080
I'm going to set up a training
for you on this.
861
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,360
Then it becomes a bit of a who
the hell are you?
862
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:04,400
I'm going to go with this other
brand that is not so big yet.
863
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,160
But I remember, for example,
when I was launching Peroni in
864
00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:10,120
in Barcelona many years ago, I
was meeting.
865
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,400
It was about the time that Jean
Marra was starting in Barcelona.
866
00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,760
And I loved what they were doing
because, for example, their
867
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:20,710
serve was on, of course, it was
a Mediterranean gene, which was
868
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:22,590
totally different than anything
else.
869
00:52:23,110 --> 00:52:27,230
And they had all these because
they had basil, Rosemary, thyme
870
00:52:27,230 --> 00:52:32,030
and other botanicals.
And the serve was very flexible,
871
00:52:32,030 --> 00:52:34,310
for example.
So he was like, whatever, you've
872
00:52:34,310 --> 00:52:37,990
got basil put basil in, you've
got Rosemary, put Rosemary in,
873
00:52:38,230 --> 00:52:41,430
as long as it's something that
actually goes with it.
874
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:45,630
Because on the bottle it
actually says what's in it as a
875
00:52:45,630 --> 00:52:48,970
botanical.
But then you make it flexible
876
00:52:48,970 --> 00:52:52,890
enough that you're not shooting
people for not having basil if
877
00:52:52,890 --> 00:52:56,010
they've only got fine and the
and the funny situation.
878
00:52:56,010 --> 00:53:00,050
Now that after what Hendrix has
done and now then what Gin Mart
879
00:53:00,050 --> 00:53:04,370
has done, now it got wild.
I go out in Prague and now it's
880
00:53:04,370 --> 00:53:08,570
still the random whatever gin
you order, you get a random it's
881
00:53:08,570 --> 00:53:13,170
like a lottery on the garnish.
You get a thigh on a on on
882
00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:16,370
something you get a cucumber on.
Or sometimes they do cucumber on
883
00:53:16,370 --> 00:53:18,690
everything.
Or they ask you do you want
884
00:53:18,690 --> 00:53:22,330
lemon, lime or cucumber or do
you want thyme or lemon?
885
00:53:22,650 --> 00:53:27,050
And some places just okay.
This gone a bit too far but it
886
00:53:27,050 --> 00:53:30,490
goes.
It has to be bar friendly
887
00:53:30,690 --> 00:53:35,690
because the bar manager is not
going to go to the market by
888
00:53:35,930 --> 00:53:38,450
several different Botanics.
Yeah, I think it's crazy.
889
00:53:38,450 --> 00:53:40,090
I think once you get to the
level.
890
00:53:40,090 --> 00:53:42,850
Hendricks at or Guinness is
another good example in beer.
891
00:53:43,270 --> 00:53:46,510
Like they've got data to back it
up that if you don't serve it
892
00:53:46,510 --> 00:53:49,830
the way that we are saying is
the perfect serve, people will
893
00:53:49,830 --> 00:53:52,870
be disappointed And that's bad
for both our businesses.
894
00:53:52,870 --> 00:53:57,390
So you can have a logical data
led conversation that I think I
895
00:53:57,390 --> 00:54:00,430
remember, Diaz, you're having a
stat that a Guinness drinker
896
00:54:00,470 --> 00:54:03,470
will seek out a pub with good
Guinness and take their friends
897
00:54:03,470 --> 00:54:05,950
there.
But if you serve bad Guinness
898
00:54:05,950 --> 00:54:08,590
they will leave the pub and take
their friends with them.
899
00:54:08,750 --> 00:54:12,430
So the power of the serve, and
I'm sure it's the same in
900
00:54:12,430 --> 00:54:14,870
spirits, but.
I think it's an interesting area
901
00:54:14,870 --> 00:54:18,310
because ultimately you need it
to be a partnership, not a
902
00:54:18,310 --> 00:54:20,870
dictatorship.
That's all for today.
903
00:54:21,510 --> 00:54:24,190
If you want to reach out to
Duncan, you will find all the
904
00:54:24,190 --> 00:54:25,830
details in the episode
description.
905
00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:30,030
If you enjoy the episode, please
rate it and share it with
906
00:54:30,030 --> 00:54:34,150
friends and come back next week
for more insights about building
907
00:54:34,150 --> 00:54:35,710
brands on the bottom up.