Embracing Authenticity w/Sarah Stremming

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Welcome back to the Leashed Mind podcast. I'm your host, Mandy Boutelle. On today's episode, I have a conversation with Sarah Stremming, a dog behavior consultant and podcaster who shares her insights on dog behavior, her holistic approach to training and her personal journey, including her struggles and coping strategies during the pandemic. Sarah discusses the evolution of her business, emphasizing in virtual works benefits and the importance of mental wellness. And finding ways to prioritize her mental health within The emphasis of her work. she also delves into the challenges and strategies for managing social media, the significance of authenticity in her work, and the value of specializing in areas of personal interest within the dog training industry. our episode highlights Sarah's philosophy of embracing one's true self in work and life, underscoring the importance of adapting and evolving professionally. So with that brief summary of what we talk about, Sarah is someone who made me feel better about working when it comes to feeling anxious about work and feeling that pressure and knowing for me that the only way to get rid of some of that anxiety is to. Do some of the work. and she made me feel okay about that, which I think is a little refreshing for those of us that like put our anxiety and stress of work into work to help like kind of negate that. That anxiety that builds. So it was really refreshing to hear that spin of like, it's okay to work if it helps take the edge off of your anxiety. So that was really reassuring and something that really clearly stuck with me from this episode. but we also talk about. her playing the long game with her podcast and how that's just grown and helped more people find her. but also talking about specializing, because I think a lot of the times, a lot of us, especially when we first tried to start out and get a feel for what we like to train and what we like to teach is we kind of just do everything. And. So Sarah and I, in this conversation, we talk more about niching down and really leaning into what you're best at and what you enjoy the most, because if you weren't going to be doing this profession for however many years, you may do it or intend to do it. You should be doing it with topics and subjects that you love and are passionate about and want to geek out and nerd more about. That is what we talk about in this episode. We talk a lot more about niching down and just finding the ways like we do through most of these episodes and how to prioritize ourselves within our business and setting our business up in such a way. So I mean, it's Sarah Strumming. Come on, let's get into the episode because it's so good. Sarah Stremming. Oh my gosh. I am so excited to have you on the podcast and I'm very honored to have you on and just that you're even open to having this conversation and adding to the conversation. So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you so much for inviting me, Manthi. I think it's going to be fun, good conversation, good topics. It's important. Really. This podcast, I think is important in doing an important thing. Thank you. I really appreciate that. A lot of people, you know, if they don't know you, it's, I think it's very rare at this point, but, uh, just to give a little intro of what you do and how you got to where you are now with your training business, with the podcast. Can you just give us a little, little intro? A little snapshot into the world of, so I'm Sarah, I have a, I have my own podcast called CogDog Radio, which is probably why folks have heard of me if they have, and I work privately with clients on behavior concerns. I really only have a tiny handful of behavior problems that I don't work with. so the niche is really more about kind of the type of client. and the type of person that I wanna work with. So, Ooh, A lot of times that winds up being dog sport competitors, because I've been in dog sports for 25 years and that's, those tend to be kind of my people, but a lot of times not. And I do get emails that are like, I don't do sports, but I think maybe you can help me And um, you're like, please work with me. Yeah. Yes. And a lot of times I absolutely do and love it and really love those clients. So the, It's really more about kind of a, an eye to wellness and a person who'd like to zero in on wellness and focus on that sort of holistic whole picture view of treating these behavior problems rather than like a, let's just dive in with a hammer and a nail and get this fixed. That's not really how I work. Although I pride myself on big outcomes for my clients. I really do want. Things to get better and I want things to get better on like a big scale like overall quality of life Yes, like if your dog is barky lunge. You got other dogs on leash The perfect client for somebody else might be a person who is totally cool with Uh, for the rest of the dog's life, crossing the street and then giving a cookie after they pass that dog. Right. Continuous management. Yes. That's an ideal client for a lot of folks because that's like, yeah, I can hit that out of the park every single time. This is great. but. I often get people who are like, and I want this dog to be on the agility world team. So how is this going to get done? He needs to go on an airplane. He needs to be in, I've been to world championships to watch. It is the most insane intense environment that I can imagine putting a dog in. And like, so those are the outcomes that a lot of times people are interested in. And so I do pride myself on getting there for people. if they are willing to do that deep dive into who is this dog and how can we best support him, not just how can we fix his behavior to meet kind of my needs. So that's my primary work right now is working with those. Clients privately. And then I also have a membership where people can come in and be a part of a community and have access to all of my material and kind of look at the material and talk in the community. And I'm really proud of where that's going right now. That's a fair, that's a new thing for me this year. And I love that people are in there supporting each other. I even have two members who like met up and took their young dogs to the Sniff Spot. Really, really excited about that. and then I'm getting back into, I don't know if we can say post pandemic, but cause I don't think that exists, but getting it, I'm getting back into a little bit of traveling and teaching, which I was doing a lot of kind of right up until March, 2020. So, getting back into that a little bit too. So, and then with my personal dogs, I compete in obedience and agility. And do a lot of, um, wandering around looking at mushrooms and stuff in the woods in the Pacific Northwest. I love that. That was a very real intro. And I am curious, speaking of the pandemic, how was it, you know, for a lot of us? We had just like, and like, okay, what the heck are we going to do? A lot of people started their businesses during the pandemic, like right before. So I'm really curious how you navigated that. Cause I think a lot of us haven't really talked about how we got through that with our businesses. I'm extremely fortunate, Mandy, and that most of my business was virtual when that happened, right? So I count that as. fortunate that happened to me is that I moved my business online in 2016. So it had already been pretty much virtual other than traveling to teach, which I was doing quite a bit of. I was traveling like 10 times a year to teach somewhere. And so that was a significant, income loss, but it was, Not too hard to replace, especially when you factor in the cost of travel. So taking away that cost of travel, I didn't actually have to replace everything. Right. So I'm really lucky that I really was already virtual. And then what happened is everybody got more comfortable with virtual work, so it honestly only did great things for me in a work, in a work way, it only did great things for me in a personal way that other things may have really suffered, but, but in a work way, it really, it really wasn't a bad thing for, for me, which I think I'm, uh, it In a small number of people that can say that oh totally and I appreciate that you acknowledge that too because I felt the same way It's like oh, okay. I already had an online thing. I guess I'll lean more into it and not a lot of people had that But I'm curious like same here Work went well, mental health was like down here. Like I'm pouring my cup and it is fully empty, cracked and like leaking everywhere. Um, so I'm really curious, just navigating the pandemic, navigating business in general, how has the mental health journey been in that? And I know that's a loaded question and we'll pick through that a little bit more. Well, I was, I was never depressed or anything before the pandemic either. Um, no, so that was sarcasm. yeah, I maybe could count myself as fortunate again in a pandemic because I was already really familiar with being in the deep dark, as I call it. And so when it started to show up again, I was like, Oh, okay, here's this thing. Um, It's going to be here until it doesn't want to be here anymore. And I am going to deal with it the way that I have dealt with it before. So the depression was, was very real. Honestly, still is like, I, I'm not, it's just, it's been a rough go, right? It's been a rough ride for a few years for me. And, but the anxiety and the fear and the like, Not wanting to leave my house or go to the grocery store, like that was, that was pretty dangerous, kind of a dangerous place for me to be. So, for me, it was leaning really hard into the things that I know can support my mental health. The, if folks have been following me for any length of time, they've heard of the four steps to behavioral wellness. It is basically that stuff. That is something that I teach about for dogs, but it is something that is really important to me as a human. so exercise being one, my preferred form of exercise is walking outside in nature. And there was a time there where they were like, Hey, maybe don't like, Hey, maybe if you have to get in your car, don't do it. Right. Right. So I, I, and the places that I wanted to go, so in Washington state they did close down a lot of trails. They did that here in Oregon too. Yeah, you can't eat outside. that was bad. That was bad for me. Yep. When that happened. Kind of as soon as I could go back out and walk again, I did, even, you know, taking that as like a calculated risk, I went out and was doing it. I would love to say that I like replaced it with something great in my house, but I totally didn't. I just was sad that I couldn't be outside. Yeah. When nature is your therapy, it's, it's hard to find a replacement indoors. Kind of not. Yeah, kind of isn't an indoor replacement. Like there isn't a, there isn't a YouTube video for that. Like you put me on a treadmill with YouTube. It's still not going to happen. No, it's not. It's not the same thing. one of the other steps is enrichment, which is essentially like, how do I do the things that I naturally want to be doing? Well, being outside in nature is kind of one of those things, but also dog training. So I really. got into a routine of training my dogs every day, which was really healing and therapeutic for me to do. And I just taught them like stuff. We did like fitness behaviors and competitive obedience behaviors and things like that.. we weren't going to dog shows, so there was no kind of competitive reason to be training. And I was just, but I was still leaning into like competition behaviors with the hopes that the shows would come back, which they did. Um, of course now you're ready. and so prepared. Yeah, right.. Yeah. No, then I, then I went right back in and everything was perfect. Um, , but I also really do, and I think that this is important for the dog trainers listening, like I get. a great amount of satisfaction from my work. And I have decided not to listen to the narrative that there's something wrong with that and that I need to be like, quote unquote, well balanced. I love that so much. Oh my god. I have decided that it is okay for me to fully immerse myself in work as a coping mechanism. I have decided. If that is actually me coping, then what is actually wrong with it? Because a behavior is only a problem if it's a problem. This is something I talk about all the time, that people kind of think that there are dog behaviors that dogs shouldn't do. Right? So like, Rhea will get up on the kitchen table and look out the window at birds. Oh, Fern does that! She has her own designated chair. Yeah, I let her. And I, I think people would be appalled. And then my dog is standing on the kitchen table, but I'm like, it isn't a problem for me or her. So I'm not really sure who it's a problem for, right? So. She's not doing it when you're eating. Like, maybe she is. I mean, usually. But come on, she's standing on the plate. It's a big table. So it really is. If it's not a problem, it's not a problem. Right. So me, fully immersing myself in my work, I've decided it's not a problem. So That's comes back to another thing that I say, which is a balance is a verb. So balance is just something you do every day. maybe today I work a lot and then tomorrow I work less and tomorrow I go to the woods with the dogs and like, it's okay that in the pandemic I worked a lot and really. Put myself there because it's really satisfying to me and I've decided that there's nothing wrong with that. There's also nothing wrong with Having other things that satisfy you more than work and leaning into those things like power to you I actually just had to Google what a hobby is like what the definition is the other day, so I don't know I hear, I hear people have those things well, your hobbies just happen to, like, coincide with work, too. That's like how mine are. Dog training is, yeah, a hobby of mine and also is what is my work. And so, fine, I, I've decided that that's okay. I've decided not to fight against it. Um, people keep telling me that I should do things that are not dog related, but I just, if I don't want to, then I'm not going to. The other two steps are nutrition and communication. Nutrition is, is a big, big deal. I think it's a huge deal for everyone. It's a huge deal for dogs. Every, every being. For me personally, I am in eating disorder recovery. So like, I have to actually think about eating. a lot and I more than I want to. And it's really easy for me to just like pretend that one doesn't exist. Oh, yeah. But it totally does. And it really makes a difference. Turns out, nourishing your body with food is kind of a normal natural thing we're supposed to do. So one thing that I, I know, tried to lean on again in the pandemic. And when I was When I was doing my best in the pandemic, I was actually cooking a lot because I enjoy it. Um, but the grocery thing and the going out, I mean, there were just, there were barriers to basically everything, right? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. that last one being communication. That one, that one's hard, but essentially it's just a reminder that, uh, that I deserve to be heard. Right? And so, communication I think we feel is like this back and forth thing it is, it's this two way thing, it's not just a listening thing. Yep. It's also a being heard thing, so, I'm still working on that one, Mandy, to be honest, but I feel that, no, everything you've touched on, I'm like, yep, mm hmm, yep. Yep, yep, yep. That's everything I experienced. You were checking all the boxes. Um, communication. I think that can also be communication with self. Because I think a lot of the times, like, especially with the pandemic, like, for me, I feel like, and I've said this on so many episodes, but, like, my mental health was, like, right here, and I couldn't look around it. Like, I'm dodging my hand if you guys aren't watching on YouTube, but it's just, it was right in, My face and I wasn't used to like actually paying attention to that. And I was like, Oh, this is depression. Oh shit. Okay. This is like heavy. Cause like I always had anxiety, um, turned out, got diagnosed early last year with ADHD and PMDD, which is another heavy form of depression. Um, never knew. And so when the pandemic hit, everything was right there in front of me and I couldn't get away from it. And I was just like, what the hell do I do? and I think for a lot of us that happened because we were subjected to staying in home with our pets, with our partners. and that was a lot for me. I uprooted my entire life in San Francisco, moved to Oregon and stayed with family for nine months. That was a huge, like, Oh boy. That was a lot for me. Um, that's a lot. It's a lot to process. And, and, you know, a lot of people say that the big life changes will really trigger, uh, depression, anxiety. And so I changed my career, changed my home, home state and left family. And so all those big changes really piled on top of me. I didn't know what I wanted to do with my business. I came to the fork in the road of like, do I want to continue training and lean into the virtual training or. Go off and do Woof see if that works. I don't Um, knock on wood, thankfully it worked out, but you know, it's not, everyone has had that luxury and I do acknowledge that, I'm very privileged to be in that situation, but I think just having to really look at our mental health has, I've seen it with so many other trainers that a lot of the times we're just like, oh, okay, now we need to change how we approach our business. Because it's, they are, they go hand in hand and we can't, I, I'm grateful for the pandemic in the sense that it really brought mental health to the forefront. And so a lot of us that were figuring out our businesses, we had to say, okay, how are we going to take care of ourselves when we're working from home all the time? Did that make sense? Uh, it makes complete sense because we. We like to pretend, I think, as an industry, not that, not that other industries don't do this, but I'm not involved. We're talking about ours. Yeah. I can't speak for them. We're talking about ours. We, in our industry, really like to pretend that, like, these things are separate. That, like, we can just show up. We're taught that they are. Be the professional. We're completely taught that they are. Be the professional. Explain the things. Have the person do the things, explain the things again. And I actually find that the clients that I connect with the most and get the closest to, I help the best. Absolutely. What, um, what do you mean in that sense? So if I'm trying to work with somebody that I cannot find, Common ground with which really happened more in the beginning part of my career because now I really just I cultivate a completely different, experience in my, in my work, I'm talking to somebody who I really cannot get on common ground with cannot connect with cannot meaning, Can't get a good read or feel of them. As I'm speaking to them, it seems our worldviews are completely different. Right. It seems our approaches to things or the way that we're thinking about things is completely different. That tends to put up barriers that I can't always get around with, people. Sure. So, starting from a similar worldview, a similar experience starting from, not just looking at dogs in a similar fashion, but maybe looking at everything in a similar fashion, right? Really helps us to helps me to help them. And this doesn't mean that like, I don't mean to imply that people need to think exactly like I think to have this work. If that were true, I would have been out of business a long time ago. Like, I mean, that's just not that's just not reality. I mean, that's, um, they need to be open and willing. I, I'm thinking of a story that I'm going to try to make like P. C enough to share, but I went to a, I went to a client's house when this was still how I operated. What year? I pull up to the house. Um, this was probably, well, let's see, it was an election year. Oh, okay, I see where this is going. Far, far pre pandemic, it was pre pandemic, further than you're thinking, not that election, further back than you're thinking. Okay. And like, um, maybe it was 08, an election year, I don't remember. 08 or 09. Anyway, that, that long ago. Okay. And I pulled up to their house and they had a sign for a candidate in their yard. And I. Bristle, because I have strong feelings about this candidate that are not good, okay? And I go in, and there were, there were immediate things being said that made me, just, just ways that the words were coming out about certain things that were Making me bristle further and bristle further. And by the end of this session, I have a brick wall up. I was just gonna say, yeah. These people can't know who I am. They know who I am, they're kicking me out. Right? They can't know that a queer socialist is like sitting in their living room because they're just gonna kick me out, right? But I'm here to help them. And, um. I did my really, really best and then I thought really hard about how I was going to navigate working with people, in, in the world. And we threw that. Yeah. Just, and yeah. And just, this is a really real thing that, you know, I had to get like, well, do I only want to work with certain, With people who vote a certain way and like, how would that even be possible? Like, like how would that even be real? That's not even accessible for me to even start to think about. I'm not putting that in any survey. Like this is not happening. but it really did get me thinking about like, how do I actually wanna show up as a professional? Because I mentioned I put up a brick wall'cause like they couldn't know who I was. I'd like them to already know who I am when I show up. I'd like them to know who I am when they choose me, actually. Right. They should choose you based off of that. They should. So that has informed how I show up in the world, and I've decided to, because I was really trained. To try to keep personal and political away from professional, weren't we always taught that? Yeah, we're always taught like just keep it separate. You need clients. You need money. Yeah, just separate it out They're my their money's green as one of my early mentors said And Now I'm like I'm just showing up as me and you can you know who I am when you hire me I want to try to make sure that you do How do you set that up in your business? Oh, right. You had to know that was coming. I'm very, yes, I'm number one, very lucky that most of the people that contact me are contacting me because they listen to the podcast. Oh, I like that. That is. Honestly, my friend Graham told me way back in 2015 that I should start a podcast, and he completely changed the trajectory of my career by suggesting it. It was already in the back of my head, but I didn't know anything about it, and I didn't know what he was doing it, and I didn't know how to do it or anything, and he was like, well that's okay, because I do, and shout out to Graham, he totally set it up for me, he set it all up, like. I didn't know what I was doing at all. You can go listen to the first episode and laugh so hard about how little. I knew about what I was doing, but done is better than perfect, which is one of my favorite mantras and I just put it out there and so today, the vast majority of people that reach out to me have already listened to the podcast and already have a decent concept of me and the way that I think and the way that I talk. You can also, if you go to my website, which is the next place they'll go to try to contact me, like, they'll listen to the podcast, and then they'll go there, and then they'll shoot me an email. I have banners on, right on the website. Yeah, I've seen your website. Yeah, right. It's very clear who you are and how you operate. I try to make it really clear. And If I do get an email from someone who has been referred and has no idea who I am, which happens, it does happen, I literally send them back to, I say, Hey, I would love it if you checked out these episodes, like, they'll tell me what their problem is. If this feels like a person I want to work which, that's just an intuition thing. If it feels like a person I want to work with, I'll say. I think you might want to, you know, familiarize yourself with the way that I work before we dig a little bit deeper. Here's a way you can do that. I might tell them to just put their problem in the search bar on my website because that will bring the podcast or the blogs to their attention that they, that they might need. I also might tell them to jump into the membership where they have access to the material in the community. I encourage most people to do that before they sign up for private coaching because private coaching is such a huge commitment. I want people to be very sure about it before they do it. Is it easier to get buy in when you do that? Have you noticed? And to weed through a little bit? I literally don't even have to worry about buy in at all because of all of this. I, in years, have not had a person question. What I was telling them to do, which is a huge responsibility that I do not take lightly. No. Big responsibility that I don't take lightly. But also what an amazing barrier to just not have anymore. That's fabulous. Yeah. It's incredible. We just, we can get straight to work because they're not saying. Why do I have to take the dog for a walk in the woods? Like, that doesn't seem like it has anything to do with what we're talking about. Like, they're just not saying it anymore. Because they already are Most people, they're already trying it. Because they already heard that podcast. And they are, like, they're already trying to do that stuff. So, it's a really fantastic I would encourage everyone to try to put their message out. Like, give away some content. Giving away some free information. Yes! Oh my god. It's actually a really fabulous way to get the right people asking you for help. We get really cagey about our stuff in the industry. And one of the people that I worked with early, early on in my career, who's kind of someone I really looked up to, was extremely cagey about everything. And like, no we can't network with those other people, and no we can't tell anybody what we're doing, and blah blah blah, and like, I just, all of that is gone out of my head now. All of that is completely gone. I will tell anybody what I do, anytime, that they ask, and I put out a ton of free information all the time. I, cause the gold is still, like, in my creatively building you a plan to solve your problem. Right, exactly. I never give, like, of course I'm not giving that away. Right. You're just giving them, like, information that they could. Take in themselves and digest and process, but if they want to really break things apart for their specific dog, they got to work with you. There's a service for that. Yeah, there's a service for that. And so giving stuff away so that people know who you are and also not being afraid to just be who you are, so that the right people show up to, to work with you. I mean, that was the lesson that I learned that day that I pulled into that person's driveway. is to just actually just be loud about it. And then all the people that you don't want to talk to will just go away. Also systems like I have a folder in my inbox that I'm not going to tell you what it's called. I will know when we, when you're not recording anymore, if you want to know, but I have a folder in my inbox where my assistant shout out to Kami. You're the best, puts every email that I get. That is. Unnecessarily unkind, just a nasty gram for the sake of being a nasty gram. Like, I don't see any of that. Absolutely. If I receive something that's constructive and important, she's good enough that she'll go, you, when you have the bandwidth, you got to read the, you got to read this one. Cool. Perfect. Always. That's always fine. But anything that is just nasty or unkind, cause that happens. It just goes right there. Oh, I need a Kami. If it's on social media, if it's on social media, so just delete it. Like, just, and have somebody else deleting it. Just, just delete it. No one needs it. Don't engage it. Just get rid of it. It's, nobody needs any of this in their life. Like, just curate everything so that, and then here's what happens, Mandy, is I just don't even get any of it anymore because I don't engage with it. So like, it just doesn't even happen. Dude, that has to, like, I'm sure that is so helpful for your mental health. Not taking that in. it's really, I, because I can't not care. Yeah. Well, it's your business. Yeah, how can you not? The advice of just don't, don't worry about those people, like those people don't matter, like is such bullshit. Because, don't, just like, we're never, I'm never going to tell a dog, like, Don't look about fireworks. How silly. They're not actually going to hurt you. Yeah, right. Like, they're viscerally. Something is telling them to be afraid of it. Like, this is a natural thing for us, is to be upset by those kinds of comments. like, somebody called me something on YouTube once that I'm not even gonna repeat. And, that was when I was like, Oh, you can turn comments off on YouTube. Done. You know how long I had comments off on Woof Cultr? Like, at least a year plus. I'm sure. Yeah. And you know what? Do it anytime you need to. Just turn them off. Like, just anytime you don't want to hear it, just turn them off. You want to make a controversial shirt? Make it, and then turn off the comments. Like, just do whatever you want to do. Like, it's, it's so important to, like, I know it's very cliché to be like, just be you, and blahdy blah. But like, truly, there's a second part of that statement, though. It's just be you, and then don't apologize for Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this is such a good segue to get into because I feel like, oh, social media, it's such a nasty beast at times. And I think a lot of the times, you know, we both have a lot of dog trainer friends. And so I'm sure we both see a lot of friends where it's like, oh, this person said something to me. This trainer commented this to me and said I wasn't doing it right. And you know, I didn't get this many likes. I didn't make that pretty of a reel. I didn't get. Whatever it is, and then all of a sudden that turns into a reflection of their worth, and how good of a trainer they are, and maybe they shouldn't do this. I've been there, I've gotten into it. Who hasn't gotten into that mindset? But I think that we need to acknowledge that social media is a marketing tool. Like you said, putting out the free content. You make a, you know, blog or a podcast episode, that is content that you can split and break apart, put out for free. You don't need to necessarily engage with it, and I think that a lot of times they get so caught up in trying to provide so much information in something so small that people are just going to scroll past. When it's just, it's like, I don't know, I feel, there's just, there's too much importance put into it when it's like, you're a dog trainer, the training and the business aspect is way more important than likes and views. It is social media is this like necessary evil because you do need to have a presence to have a business that's going to thrive and run like, unfortunately, that's just where we are, is that and like, I give it 10 years, it'll look completely different. But that's where we are right now. Right. And so I have a couple tricks for that. One of them is that, I am on Instagram, but I don't engage a lot on Instagram. I post you don't things, and then I leave. Yeah, I don't engage a lot on it. I think it's a little bit flawed, like I think I could do better for myself if I learned more about Instagram. I was smarter about it, but on, I kind of don't need it in my life, so I don't engage a lot on Instagram. I do have TikTok, which has been really interesting and people have been probably meaner to me on TikTok than like anywhere else ever. And it is kind of, that's just like how TikTok is. So like when I learned that actually TikTok is literally just the high school cafeteria. Yes. Oh, good description. Yes. It's like a mean Instagram. It is. And I, so now I just like. I will put something on TikTok that I know is going to piss people off a little bit just because it doesn't even have to be bad. Like they just, they're looking to be mad about something and then I'll just leave it alone because then the comments will go wild and now suddenly I have like a gazillion new views and a gazillion new followers because the comments have gone wild because they're fighting with each other in the comments. And you're, you didn't do anything. All you did was post it. And I just didn't even look at it. Yeah. And I, yeah, I just didn't even look at it. So that's kind of how I let that. happen. Um, I do. What's amazing, Mandy, is that one of my, the message, basically the hill I will die on is the dogs need off leash time in nature. Yes. And also the thing that I'm most attacked for is saying that, Oh, I know I've seen it. Yeah. I know, you know, right. Like any everybody's seen it. Right. And what's fascinating is people are like, how do you deal with that? And I'm like, listen, if. If I sit down in a kindergarten classroom with a bunch of five year olds that are eating Play Doh, and they're like, You're so stupid for not eating Play Doh. How dare you suggest that you eat real food and not Play Doh. Like, I don't need to worry about it. I know I don't want to eat Play Doh. So I'm fine. So, you're killing me with these analogies. Oh, it's one of my superpowers is the metaphor. Um, so if, so when people get really mad at me about this, I just know that like, I'm at a place with it that they're not at, and like, it doesn't involve me. When they want to come down my throat about it, it just isn't, it, uh. I'm on the hill. I'm already dying on the hill. Like I don't need to talk to you about it. Like I am already sure. So for instance, like I, there's a really popular thing that people do for agility dogs. I'm not going to say what it is because I really don't want to hear it from people. So, there's a really popular thing that people do for agility dogs that I don't do for my dogs. I am sure that it's not a good idea. I am sure that I don't want to do it. You know your stance. And So therefore, I don't get upset about people saying it's the best thing ever. So what's interesting to me about that is that people do get mad at me about this off fleish thing. Whereas, like, this other thing that's a wellness thing that I'm sure is a bad idea, I don't get upset about them talking about it. Because I'm sure. Right. So I know that this is coming from a place of They know that I'm right and they feel like they can't give the, give it to the dog, and so they're mad at me about it. Fine. That's a completely different place for you to be than, than what you're saying. So, anyway, that was a long ramble about that, but essentially, that's the only thing that I still really deal with on social media is people getting mad about that particular message. In which case, I just Say the message again, and then say it louder for the people in the back, and then just like keep going because I'm sure, I'm sure. Um, But social media, like, that's, that's kind of just how you have to deal with it because you aren't going to not care. Like, quit pretending you're not gonna care, and don't engage with things that feel yucky to you to engage with. Ooh, let's talk about that a little more. In, in general, so yeah, let's, let's go into that. Well, because I think, I have to take a big breath before that because I'm, I'm holding my breath and I'm not breathing and I'm getting frustrated because social media does this to me. Um, so everyone take a breath. it's because a lot of the times, and I know you know this as well, that someone will come on someone's page and just say, Well, why are you doing it that way? You didn't explain it that in the 60 second video that you just put up and it's like, oh, I'm You know what? Fuck me. I'm, so sorry that I didn't explain Everything in a 60 second clip for you to second video for you to get for free because something I like to point out to people is Majority of the instagram followers all of them pretty much. They're not paying you Right. No, that is the thing. And I feel like a lot of the times people are like not paying you if they're there criticizing you, right? And they probably don't follow you. Yeah. Um, so with that, I just, I want to talk about how To navigate the nastiness in that because sometimes people do show up with genuine curiosity and questions And I think a lot of the times Especially the newer trainers will feel the need to respond to everything because it's like well I'm not really sure how they feel and then it's like ooh that person was nasty to me And now I have this feeling of anytime someone interacts with me. It might be like that. Okay, so Definitely not engaging with anything that makes you feel yucky, which is a skill because the first thing is recognizing that it makes you feel yucky. So recognizing it is the first thing really, really actually not that easy to do. We've kind of been trained to ignore those kinds of feelings. but I can turn that into something that benefits me. One of three different ways. If somebody is, Basically saying you didn't tell me right or you didn't tell me enough or like I don't understand what you're doing or, or you're doing it wrong or whatever. I can refer them to a colleague who does this better than me or bigger than me or louder than me or whatever. That benefits everyone. I can send them to a paid resource that I have where they can get that information. They may or may not do it, but that's what I, that's my favorite option, is to say, I explain this in depth over there, you can go do that for a fee. or, I just make it work for me by turning it into more content. So, if I explain something and you're saying, but what about this? I can just make another video that says, well, what about this? Here it is. Ah. So, those are kind of the three ways. That I can turn that into a benefit, and if it's really, truly just nastiness, Mandy, I just ignore it. I was just gonna ask, when do you decide, like, okay, screw off, block, and delete? Not gonna take that in. Anything that's ever said that is, like, personal, that's immediate, immediate delete, block. So, like, the YouTube comment that I, that led me to turn off comments on YouTube was, Like a comment about my body. That's a no. Like, that's never on the table for you to be talking about. And how is that relevant to training? Like, what the fuck? Just let's pick everything apart. Okay. So dumb. Thanks, Bill. God. it's so dumb. So anything that's about that or anything that's about me as a person, anything that's about any of the, um, beliefs that we were talking about before, like that, like anything that's about that as an immediate, no core values. And then I also have, like, I encourage everybody to kind of have their personal deal breakers too. Like anybody who points out that, um, There's a problem with the way that I train because I have border collies, so I obviously don't know anything because border collies come out of the womb trained. I don't engage with that discourse. Like, first of all, border collies are terrible. Anybody who has worked, like, are they easy to train? Yes. Are they a huge problem in every other possible way? Also, yeah. But I had somebody say to me once, She said this to my face, but, um, you know, interesting. She said that people who can't train dogs get goldens and people who can't even train goldens get border collies. For those that are not watching on YouTube, I feel quite dumbfounded by that statement. So anything that's like that or same, same vibe is like Will bro show me with a Malinois? Like, same vibe. I just don't. I just don't care. I just, good trainings, good training. Like, why do you need to see it with a specific dog? Training a Malinois comes with, I have worked with plenty of Malinois. Training those comes with plenty of specific challenges that are very different from training a Basset Hound or, like, yes, dogs are different. How cool is that? Like, I don't really engage with, like, the, that's great, except you only got it done because it's a border colony. Like, I don't engage with that, because then I did get a Nordic Spitz breed that somehow Everybody just thinks that she also came out of the womb trained. I don't know. Like, it doesn't matter. Clearly it says a lot about your training. Right. I've decided it doesn't matter what I have, that, that, so anything that's like that vibe, I'm out. The things that I will engage with are things that are, Anytime anybody points out anything that I've said that is maybe, Not inclusive to any group. I'm going to genuinely try to learn from that discourse. That's a rule for me. so that's a rule for me, but like outside of that, if it's literally just criticism for criticism's sake, I don't, I don't care. And I just, I just move on. And so I think that, this sounds like that I never get upset or that I'm like a big ego person, but I'm actually upset quite often. I operate in a kind of low level being upset state. So like, it's actually just that I'm trying to protect the tiny bit of bandwidth that I have from, from any of that crap. So like, that's really what it is, is that I have just learned that I can only take so much and can only do so much. And so. People criticizing me just for no reason in comment sections is just not something that I, I don't even read it, honestly. Like, you know that I'm not active on Instagram because I don't, I just, it's too much. Like, I have a private Instagram account that's mine that's just a personal account. That's the one that I'm scrolling and I don't scroll the business one. And I just post things on business, right? So, like, if I enjoy social media for myself, then I'm going to just do that for myself and I'm doing that and it's very separate from business stuff but I'm a huge fan of just of the block and delete honestly. It's a, it's a big mental health, you know, barrier. Um, I'm, I'm glad that you touched on having a personal and a business Instagram because I think I see a lot of trainers and if you feel triggered by this, I'm sorry, but I see a lot of trainers that have only a business account. And I'm just like, what are you doing? Because the content that is coming up in your Explore page, coming up in your feed, It's all dog training and how can your brain relax? When it's constant work and competition and, Ooh, how did they do this? And then your brain is constantly going. Like, you're not giving your time to enjoy, like, hiking trails or restaurants or whatever it is you like personally. Mm hmm. And I think that that's a, I think instead in our field, it's like, it's like you either hate social media and you're only on it for business and so you don't look at anything, or you've learned how to. enjoy certain aspects of it because it's actually designed for us to like it. Like, wink, wink, like they did it on purpose. Um, and so, yeah, the majority of my private Instagram is, I mean, all of my friends are dog people. So like it's, it's actual close friends. So I am seeing their dogs and then it's other stuff that I care about. It's more selective. I'm interested in. Yeah. I think. can definitely say that most of my burnout has stemmed in the past from social media and not feeling adequate, not feeling enough, everything we just talked about. Um. So I'm very curious to hear how you have navigated burnout because it happens to the best of us. I did a whole episode that just came out about me recovering from burnout. So I would love to hear how you acknowledge when it comes and and work to bounce back from it. For me, it is typically a result of not paying attention to my personal wellness. It is usually not about work, if I telescope out. It's usually not about that. it is usually about other challenges, personal life challenges, or not being able to kind of address those, those needs. So like, when I started out as a dog trainer, I started out in a way that I think is really typical of a lot of dog trainers, in that I was working all day, um, in a dog daycare. And then I was teaching classes at night and then I was seeing private clients on my days off. And I did not make enough money in the daycare portion to not do that because we live in a capitalist hellscape in which no one has paid what they need to be paid in positions like that. Right. Um, and so It was really typical for me to arrive at the place that I, because I taught it was all at the same place, to arrive at 9am and not leave till like 10. Oh man. It was really typical. And that was like four days a week. And then I was still competing in agility on the weekends. So a lot of times I would go compete in agility on the weekends. And then, I mean, Mandy, it was ridiculous. And also I have some chronic health concerns that like, I literally physically can't do stuff like that. And like most people can't do that kind of thing for very long, but if I'm really real about what my body wants me to do and how much I want to rest now, which I'm, Really, I try to be really aware of now. I don't understand, actually, how I didn't just wind up in the hospital. and I remember one day, I had like 20 minutes to eat a granola bar before my class started. And I was looking at like a dog magazine or like a dog public dog trainer publication or something like probably the Chronicle of the dog. I don't know. And somebody had written An article about like being our best selves for our students. And there was a line in it. And I apologize that I don't remember who wrote this. Um, because it was pivotal for me, obviously there was a line in it that just said, you owe your students to show up like fed and rested. And I just like had a melt, like I just started crying because I was so exhausted. I was barely eating. So I. Like I said, it was like shoving a granola bar in my face before I taught class and I just like melted down, but I didn't know how to fix it. No, because when you're in it, you, you don't know how to dig out. Well, I had to pay my rent. Like, I had to pay my rent and I had to buy groceries. And honestly, it was even a time that, like, sometimes my dogs ate oatmeal and eggs for dinner and I drank a beer. Yep. Oh God, that hits so close to home. Like, that was reality. So what the hell was I supposed to do about it? I'm actually extremely fortunate that I really hit a place where it was just, I knew it was not sustainable anymore, and I, asked my parents for help, and I was able to, I actually moved back into their house, and started the cognitive canine from their house. That's, I like how that kind of stemmed the rest of the career though, more or less. Yeah. To acknowledge that. I mean, they, yeah, they, it was really, um. It was not without sacrifices for everyone involved. It was something that I did not want to do for my mental health and did for my mental health long term. and, you know, just grew from there. And it was, I had a person that I really looked up to that I talked about business at a time and I. Talk to her about it. Cause I was like, I really don't want to do this. And it also, I, you know, we're, we're so raised in like the, you know, you work three jobs. If you have to work three jobs, like that's just what you have to do. Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, like bullshit. And she was like, she was like, Oh, she's like, no, no, no. She's like, this is the gift. You need to take it. She was like, had no questions that she was like, no, this is the right thing for you to do. And I'm really grateful that she said that because I was like, okay, I guess it's the right thing to do. So then that's what I did. But honestly, like when I was in that, like I took, there was, there was no screening of anybody. I took anybody who called. I taught these classes, You were hungry in more ways than one. Yeah, I was, like, I was just, I was hustling and hustling and hustling. And I felt, you know, it, it created other problems, like, yeah, it was just, It ripples, it goes, yeah, it leads into everything else. dissertation about, like, how everything was a disaster because of, because of everything else. And it's, I just want anybody who's, like, maybe in that phase to, like, look for the hand up or like, maybe it is that, and I considered this strongly, maybe it is that it's not the super low paying job that's like in the field, but it's another job that might pay you a little bit more that's not in the field that you allow to sustain you while you build the other pieces of your business. And then big time, I was working for other people at that time as well. And so I wasn't able to set prices. myself and was actually told how greedy I was when I went to them and said like we're not even charging as much as this big box store and we're doing a way better job. and I just now whenever I talk to like young trainers, which I do a lot, I say, what are you charging? They'll tell me every single time, Mandy. I'm like, cool. You need to double that next week, babe. Like, what are you doing? It's like, well, I need clients and it's like, okay, but you don't want all the clients. Like you do, but the right ones. And we'll get into that. Yeah, scary. It's very scary to raise prices when you already don't have enough people coming in the door. It's really, really scary to do that. which is again, where like. Maybe you learn how to make frappuccinos. Like, I just, maybe there is a job that you can do part of the time. Like, I hate that that's the reality, but you do have to, you know, we all have to pay the bills and whatever else. And if you're going to burn out on dogs, and also it's a really low paying industry if you're working for somebody else. Like it just is. Maybe get out of it. Maybe, maybe look at some other, I used to like fantasize about just going to a job and just being there for a set amount of time and then leaving and then having my life after like I used to completely fantasize about that. So if I ever catch myself fantasizing about that, I know we need to reevaluate. Yeah, overall something because I've never wanted that. So why am I daydreaming of being a barista? I don't know. Right, right. Why do I wish I worked at a Barnes and Noble? That might be burnout, is what that might be. So, other times that I've burnt out, like, I honestly, like, see it coming, and I, I usually change something. I usually just change something drastically. So, sometimes it is a price restructure. The way that I've worked with private clients has changed a lot of times since I started doing it virtually. Have you noticed your mental health has kind of gotten better as that's changed? Every single time I've changed it, yeah. Every single time I've changed it. And it's just, it's basically, I love my job and I get a lot of satisfaction and fulfillment out of it. And if it starts to feel like a burden, and if it starts to feel like something I don't want to do, it's time to change it again. Like, don't normalize this being a slug. Like, don't normalize hating it and dreading it. It's not a field that you'll survive if you don't like it. Like you gotta, you really have to love it or it's, you're not going to survive it and there might be a part, there might be like a way for you to love it or there might be something else that you need, that is adjacent that you can do, which I'm sure you know nothing about. Hi. Hello. Yeah. Two, two careers out of that one. Yeah. Exactly. So it's like, for me. If it starts to feel like a slog, if it starts to feel like a burden, honestly, I have to be very honest with you. My life, my, my personal life, is very hard. There are, there have been very few times in my life when there wasn't something freaking catastrophic going on that it's so hard, right? And so I've just decided that my work is not also going to be that. Oh, I love that. I don't love that you have hard, the hard life things, but like everybody does, right? So I just decided that life is hard enough that my work does not have to be that hard. Yeah. It sounds so easy, but it takes a lot of training. It has taken a long time for me to get there, to let that be, to let that be real life. and it's taken, you know, yeah, putting the podcast out every single week when nobody was listening to it yet. Like I'm just doing it and letting it grow and trusting that it would. And, truly, I don't have any other skills, so it was gonna be dogs or it was nothing, so, like, That's not true. I mean, it was gonna be dogs or it was gonna be something I probably have to go back to school for, which I didn't want to do, so, like, here we are. And, so I think not normalizing the slog, not normalizing the, like, Ugh, I have to do this again today, like, just, no, like, you should like it, actually. Right. And I think that's a great way to segue into delegating and being able to task out, because that is a great way for you to feel like bogged down with work and be like, Oh, I hate this. I don't want to do this. And I think a lot of the times I mean, we talked before we hit record that I think a lot of us, myself included, Don't feel like we can a afford to delegate because it's hard and hello economy and inflation But also for me one of the biggest hurdles has been Feeling like I deserve that it's like okay Woof Cultr has been around for Oh my God, it's been around for four years now, and I still cannot allow myself to get a VA, even if it's just checking my email because I don't feel, I feel like that's such a mundane task that I would be better suited delegating something heavier, although I like to control things and I'm like, they're not going to do it the way I'm going to do it. But it's like, it's email. Mandy, they're not. Okay. They're not. But I need to be okay with that. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Yes. Delegating, super hard. But here's what you can't delegate. You cannot delegate design. You cannot delegate the creative process that you have. Right? Therefore, you need all the bandwidth for that. All I do is create a board. That's it. You're like, well, that's all I do. the VA, like, having an assistant, even if they literally work for you for two hours a week, which like you know, in my very beginning of the process when I was working 13 hour days, I couldn't have afforded that either. What's fascinating about that though, Mandy, is that I could have sooner than I did pay one, like I could have done it sooner than I did it. Was it figuring out how to fit it into your budget? And, and figuring out where that would come out in the wash, kind of. No, it was literally just like letting go of, actually the first person that I started paying was not a VA. The first person I started paying was someone to actually do, handle my, my books and my money. And that's a big one. Because I'm really, really bad with that. Also, it's not just that I'm bad at it. Like, it causes me extreme anxiety and stress. So now my rule is that if something is causing me anxiety and I don't actually have to be the person doing it, somebody else will be doing it. So that's the first thing that happened. That allowed me to Know where the money was going and what and like be able to actually look at it and know that I could pay somebody to Then handle my email, etc. So then move to that direction and Other things like having a housekeeper like having somebody come clean your house Like, here's the thing about that is that I felt so, I still, I say this in past tense, like it's not here anymore. I feel so much shame about that because I was raised to like, just keep my own space clean and like, yeah, like I feel shame about it and it also makes my life so much better and so much easier. And so it's, it's the, it's things like that, that, as your business grows, like rather than just like squirreling it all away and, and pretending that you don't have any money, like spend money to make your life a little bit easier, that's okay to do. And so, yeah, having a VA is, I think if you are a dog trainer working virtually, especially, I don't know how you don't have one. and if you're a dog trainer that works in person, like, you still are dealing with how much email, how much. Client intake, invoicing, follow up, like Yeah, but working with somebody to also just streamline those systems so that those things are not hard. Like, I don't give people that, like, that write up that takes two hours to write after an initial consult anymore. Nobody reads them. Like, I That's true. The rare person who reads them is a rare person. So what I do instead, because it's virtual, is I record it. And they can have that. And I take a few notes and then I build them cause I don't do just a one off consult. Like they, that's just how they begin coaching is we start with a call. And so then the notes that I take can get put into their virtual platform. I've just taken a few of them. They get the recording. Since I stopped giving people this massive write up that took so long to write, that initial consult so much lighter. Doesn't feel so hard. It just doesn't feel so hard. What, why was I doing that for so long? There are things that like, maybe it's something that's normalized in your career, in the, in the business that you don't actually have to do like that. And I feel like a lot of the times were encouraged coach taught to do it this way, because. This is the basic way to do it and this is how we've been doing it. This is the way we're all doing it, right? I do find, and I don't know if you find this, but I have also, and you had them on your podcast. I've talked to Taylor and Gio over at smart bitch about this too, that like clients do best. with like quick, short interactions from you that are frequent. If you were handing people a homework sheet and seeing and saying, see you next week, you're not actually doing the best job that you can. And instead setting up. Okay, on Tuesday I'm gonna text you and I need, you know, like, they use, um, Marco Polo, I think, to just do, like, I need a fast video of you doing this. That's your homework today. As opposed to, like, here's your homework sheet. I used to do, I used to give people a handout. Oh yeah, same. Yeah. On what we just talked about, how stupid, it wound up in their trash every single time, I'm sure. And the chances of them actually reading it, I had maybe like two clients that actually like put it up on their fridge. You can get a client that reads it or puts it on their fridge, they're so cute and fine, but like. Not everyone's doing that. So just. No. Really streamlining all of those things into like, what is actually working? Rather than, this is what, how I assume everything needs to look. And then also, if something is important. To your clients, but it's really hard for you. The way that you make that work is you charge more for it. That's the way that you make that work. If you can't get rid of it because it's really needed, but it's really hard for you, then you should probably be charging more. So it's the same with when I'm training dogs. I talk about ratio, of reinforcement to effort. So like, if the dog's given me a 10 for this, I better pay 'em with a 10 reinforcer. And that might be. The ball on rope, or it might be like rotisserie chicken, or it might be like, whatever, right? But think about yourself like that. If you're feeling like you don't want to do something, there's a reason. A lot of times, it's just that you're not being paid appropriately to do it a lot of the time. Well, and I'm so glad you touched on that, because I think we have control of what we're getting paid, first of all. But second of all, it's It's a lot of the times we think, or, or we'll come across a training situation where it's like, Whoa, this is out of my wheelhouse. This is more than like I'm ready for. Oh, maybe I should get paid accordingly for this. We never think that, but like you just compared with like how we are reinforcing our animals, we don't like that. And I say this so many times in the podcast, but it's just, it's like so many times we see it, the behavior aspect, and we see all this getting applied in training. But we can't go, oh, look, and if anyone is not watching YouTube, I'm literally taking something and moving it to the other side because it's like, oh, wait, it fits here too. This box can totally go over here. But we, there's that disconnect, and it's astonishing because we all know so much about behavior, but we don't apply it to ourselves in that aspect. Amazing, right? It's like we think it doesn't apply to us. Of course it applies to us. Or we think we don't think we deserve that. Yeah, in like the shitty ways, like instead of the great ways like this, like, everybody deserves to be paid what the job is worth. Like a living wage. Yeah. Yeah. If the job is at 10, then you're, you should be making a, yes, baseline. We don't get to withhold food from the dog, like the dog gets fed the calories it needs every single day, whether it works for you or not. Yes. Rest, the rest is a bonus. And then if the dog gives you something that's worth rotisserie chicken, it gets rotisserie chicken as opposed to, you know, we all cringe at that trainer who's like, I only train with cable. Like I never, you know, I never train with anything, anything more than that because blah, blah. Like I only train with dogs, basic food. And like, well, I don't. Why, I don't know why that makes you feel better about yourself, but like, It's like, oh, you're boring. Cool. We all cringe at that guy, so let's not be that guy with ourselves also and kind of go, No, I only, I'm only going to make this much. Let me paint myself with a saltine cracker. Yes. Yeah. That's fine. That's enough. That's fine. there's a lot of principles like that. And I think just recognizing too that like, So, so often we, just as adult humans, are operating constantly in negative reinforcement contingencies, like, clearing the inbox is a negative reinforcement contingency. You just feel relief when you've done it. That's why you're doing it. I do it every morning. All right. So recognizing that, right, recognizing that is so important. And then just. Also accepting that there's, to me, there's a truth, which is that we all deserve to live in an environment that is rich in positive reinforcement. That's us, that's them. Yeah. And couldn't we, we could kind of like speculate that depression sometimes comes from just this chronic lack of positive reinforcement. I don't know if you've ever worked with a dog that you kind of looked at it and you just thought like, this dog just seems depressed to me. Like they just see and then you, you tear apart their life and you look at everything and yeah, they got nothing going on that like feels good. Everything they're doing is avoidance of. They're told they're wrong. That's not right. That's not right. But tell me what is like. Right or even they're like an ex puppy mill or whatever dog that's been saved. But now they're in a house where they don't know what's going on and they don't know how to access positive reinforcement and they're just hiding in a corner. Right. Like, I have felt, like, I have felt akin to one of those dogs a few times, but like, yeah, just recognizing you deserve to get paid just like they deserve to get paid. And whether you deserve it or not, you need it, so you may as well set it up so it's happening. Yeah, well The idea that we get what we deserve in this life is such a farce that we can't even go there, but it's, you do have control over it, so control it. Right. Like, for example, when we lived in San Francisco, my husband and I, we had a walking and training business, and it was my husband, me, and one employee, and San Francisco, expensive cost of living, expensive rent. If I did not move my car on a certain day, I would get a 75 ticket. Like, it was stressful. And we had, I would walk anywhere from six to eight dogs, And then I would go do training. so yeah, we had money because we were charging clients, but we were charging them the right prices. And if they didn't like our prices, goodbye. Go find a cheaper dog walker then because we need to live. And so. We had it set that we would increase our prices yearly. And we would just be like, look, like, rent went up, our prices go up. And it's not like we would say, oh hey, it went from 28 to 38. No, it would go up by like 2. A lot of people that are hiring a trainer, hiring a walker, They're not going to really bat an eye at that because they're going to understand you need to feed yourself and live. and there were times where our clients would push back and we'd be like, look, sorry, we need to pay our employee and live. Yeah, and I, what I find is that some individual business owners find it so punishing when they lose even one client. Like if they raise the prices and they lose one client, that that feels so punishing to them that they go, I knew it, I shouldn't have done this in the first place. Again, we can bring this into dog training and dog behavior because if you've got a dog that's kind of skeptical, like there may be that dog that's scared to leave the house, like we've all kind of worked with those dogs that as soon as they walk on the front porch, they're like, Hmm, I don't think I want to eat anymore. This is threshold. Yeah. Yeah. So like, if you're talking about that dog and you convince that dog to take a couple of steps out to their mat on the driveway. And then, like, huge loud truck goes by, backfires, and they bolt for the house. Yeah, that's a bad deal. That's not a good day. Because now you're back at square one and you've got to build back up. Because what you need is reinforcement history. And you might need to build that reinforcement history. With small changes. So if you're charging 75 an hour, and I think you should be charging 500 an hour. not going to suggest you change it tomorrow to 500. Not just because of your clientele, but because of you. Because you need to feel that positive reinforcement. And I'll say, okay, how scary on a scale of 1 to 10 does it feel for you to change that to 100 next week? Or whatever. And if they're like, Oh, it's, it's a five or six, I'm like, okay, then it's a hundred next week. That's what we're going to do next though. And like, you're going to lose clients sometimes when you raise your prices. But what I coach people on is just that if you don't have some people deciding that you cost too much for them. You're probably not. You're not charging enough. Yeah, well, and I will also say because I know I'm hearing it and I understand it. I charge what I charge so that I also can throw somebody a bone when I want to, and when I see fit, like I had a friend who I wanted to help out a couple years ago with their dog who I knew did not have Yeah. The income to support that endeavor who I just helped for free. I could do that. I chose to do that and it's not something that I do frequently. Because I would burn out if I did. Right, I was just gonna say, yeah. That's a problem, but I can do that. Or I can throw somebody a discount. If I think this is a situation that I'd really, really like to help this person, and I really, really know that this is a genuine problem for them, I can make that choice if I want to. And I can only do that because I'm charging appropriately all the time. And the positive reinforcement is built up. It is totally scary to raise your prices. It's totally scary to restructure. I, you would think by now that, cause I've done it so many times that I would be like feeling good about it, but like, I still get like some trepidation about it, but it's really important for us as an industry to be charging enough that we can live. And structuring so that that also works, because like physically, like if I were teaching group pet dog training classes, which I don't teach anymore, but if I were, there is actually a cap to kind of what people will pay for that because of what their Used to like what, what they look around. so I would set my prices, you know, according to what I thought was appropriate for what I was providing in the area that I was providing it in. And then also, or even just not just groups, but like physical in person lessons, there's only so many of them that I can actually do in a day. Right, exactly. Then I need structuring to make sure that I can make enough. Right? Like my sister is a professional dog walker in Denver and there's only she can't walk. She can't walk 30 dogs a day. It's right. It maxes out at a certain point. So you need to charge for that max. Yeah, exactly. And then maybe if if that's also not possible, then maybe that is where you're bringing in contractors and you're and you're like, it's, there's always it's funny that I feel this way about business because I don't feel this way about it's really hard for me to feel this way about life. There's actually always a solution. There's always that and I feel the same way. Like, in business, there's always a solution, there's always a restructure, there's always a change, there's always a price change, there's always something that kind of can be done if I am doing the thing that I that works for me to be doing because there wouldn't be a solution for me if I were like I'm trying to think of a job that I wouldn't want, but I, basically anything bartender, I basically, yeah, a bartender. I would be terrible at that. There's there isn't a solution for me, a waitress, I, that would be terrible at this. There wouldn't be solutions for me to make that work. It wouldn't be like, be more personable with the guests so that you get better tips. Like that's the kind of stuff that people talk about in that sort of. Forget it. Like, it's not going to happen. I'm just thinking because like I did hair for like six to eight years and same thing. Like, there was a ceiling for me and I just was like, okay, I am tapped out. I was like, had serious disordered eating at that point. Like, I was just like, They're not gonna be there. There wasn't a solution where I could see it getting better for me and my mental health, you know what I mean? Like I just hit a point where I was like, so then maybe it's just a it's a shift Restructure. It's a complete go do go do something else. And again, like, I get it. If you're in the position that I was in when I was working 13 hour days on average, and like I somebody saying to me that there's a solution, I would be like, F off. I would have some language for them. So I get it. So if you're like mad about that answer, I hear me that like, yeah, there's, there's prob there's also true systemic problems that are just not your fault also. Yes. And don't blame yourself for that stuff. But I do think that, you know, like everything circles back to everything else. Like, The first order of business is for people to see who you are, trust you, and want you to do this thing for them. All those factors, they're going to see your worth and your value and be willing to pay that if it aligns with their values. Yeah. Like, if you're the right person for them, they're going to see it and they're going to gravitate towards it. And Continuing to kind of work on, I think, in this, you know, I don't think we have time to, like, get into imposter syndrome, which I put in quotes, but, like, you, I feel like you have talked about it. Oh, yeah. Um, yeah, like, probably at length. Almost every episode. With, like, everybody, almost every episode. We'll bring you on for another one. Here's my, like, hot take on it, though, is that there's a big difference, like, imposter syndrome is defined as, A person who is extremely accomplished and yet does not believe in their accomplishments or does not, does not see that they're bringing value to the field, like, thinks that they have fooled people with their accomplishments, right? So, like, that, like, that's impossible. That's it. And then also just looking at a case and feeling like I'm not sure I know how to do this, that's not imposter syndrome. That's you just aren't sure. Yes, and that's also okay. Like, embrace that. That's not like this Question it. other thing going on. Yeah. Like, that's like, okay, who can help me then? Right. Like, build your cabinet, do those cases, you know, take those cases on with help of colleagues, get better at them. And you will feel more because I do think a lot of people are like, I can't put that stuff out because I'm not sure it's right or right or whatever, right? Bounce it around. yeah, that's why we network. Be networking and talking to colleagues and, you know, playing with different ideas and getting better and growing. Right. So that you do feel more comfortable and safer taking on. More and more stuff and if you don't want any of that also own that like if you do love to teach puppy K And that's what I was just gonna get into this. Yes, then just please do it Seriously, we need more of that. So yes, honestly like I've got a friend who is a really skilled trainer could work with and intense aggression cases. It instead does puppy day train. That's what she does. She's great at it. Goes great for everybody. There's no reason for her to be working with these really hard, because for her it's not satisfying, it's straining. Right. Right? So there's some people that really thrive in that and they love it and they're passionate about it. Puppy day train. Right. And then that turns you into the, you know, puppy person or the aggression person. And then what's going to happen is everyone's going to be referring everyone else to you. And then, hey, I don't take aggression cases. I only do puppies. Oh, hey, you do aggression. Let me throw that at you. And then that's how we network, and I think a lot of the times we forget that that's actually really good to niche down. and before I let you go, I, I did want to talk about, cause Marissa brought you on, or I brought Marissa on and we talked about this too, and she referenced you of how you told her, like, do you have a list of what you will and will not take on? And when she said that, I was like, Oh, we need to bring Sarah on to explain that. Yeah. Marissa is somebody who I talked to a lot about, business and cases and things like that. And she was lamenting at some point about some type of case she doesn't like, and she just doesn't want to take them. And I was like, Oh yeah, so don't let's get the list. of what you want to take and what you don't want to take. I think a lot of people are going, what? I can do that? Like, I don't, I feel really fortunate that there are fantastic resources for separation anxiety now that I can just send all of those people that direction. Right, that wasn't the case, you know, ten so years ago. It wasn't. No. It wasn't. So I took some of those cases. I don't like them. It. feels like watching paint dry to me. Like, I just, I don't like it. And it's very high stakes. It's like, extremely high stakes paint drying. And I just, that sounds like hell on earth to me. Like, that's seppanks to me. So, I give all of those away. Like, I was like, let's hear it. What, what do you not want to, you get an, you get a certain email, like, what about this is, I don't want to do it. What makes you feel icky and, like, Oh, what makes you feel yucky? If you read this email and, like, And you cringe. I just get a, like, ugh response. I'm just referring. Also, if you have emailed me and I've given you a referral, that doesn't necessarily mean that you made me cringe. Like, probably that's not even true if you're a person who would listen to this. I just also sometimes don't have room. Sometimes, often don't have room, sometimes don't have bandwidth for specifically your type of problem, because it might be one that's a little harder for me that I'd take if I have kind of the mental space for it. Right. Might be one that I just know that there's a better person for the job, and I just send you to them. I love that you explain that. Because you might not know that there is a better person for the job, but I do, because I love that I do. Like, I want to know. If you're a person and you do something and you are, like, so good at it, please be putting it out there in the world because I want to see it. Other people want to see it. and then I can just, I can We need everyone to refer to. We need everybody here. We do need everybody here. Because I don't take everything and I don't You shouldn't. want to take everything and nobody should. No. Like if you're taking every single thing that walks in the door, no questions asked, I would just urge you're leaving this industry very early. Urge to think about that. Yeah, you're, you probably are gonna burn out because you're like, . Like I said, you should. I like it, like I, this work satisfies me on such a deep level that I do not. Dread it. Like, the only times that I don't want to do my job, Mandy, is when I am so depressed that I just don't want to do anything. Like, those are the times that I don't want to do my job. Otherwise, I do want to do my job, and I want to I want to do it well, and I am passionate about showing up and doing it well. and I hope that for everyone, because it's just an easier place to occupy in the world, is a place where you are passionate and fired up about the work that you're doing. And that does come with time, too, I think, in learning what we do like more. For me, I think in the beginning, I took everything, and then I quickly learned I did not like working with puppies, and I preferred reactivity training. and so it takes time to learn that. You feel it out, you take what you take, and then you're like, Ooh, I'm at a place now where I can start filing that out. I know this trainer. They're a good trainer. I'm going to refer that out. It does take time. Yeah. And let it take time. That's fine. Like let it network and let it, let it grow and let it build and also let it change. Cause you might find a place that like, I used to teach an online class of that. I don't teach anymore that I. don't want to teach anymore, like people are wondering when I'm going to put it on my own platform because I left FDSA and so they, and it's a class I used to teach at FDSA and they want to know when I'm going to put it out and then I'm not, it's not going to work. And that's okay, that's fair because it's not something that like feeds your soul. So happy that it helped you if it did, but like, it just ain't me and I'm not, I don't want to do it anymore. So I'm not. And I just, I would love for everybody to just be like, this is the thing I like and this is what I'm going to be doing. Do you have any advice for anyone finding that out and figuring that out or how to start strategizing that possibly? Maybe someone that's just gotten started or is in a program? If you are just getting started, I would, I mean take like a really real self reflective like moment and kind of go, well if you don't, if you haven't even had any clients yet. Think, why did I want to get into dog training? Like, what did I see myself doing? What was the vision? And then you may as well just try that. You may as well start there. for me though, like, most people get into dog training because they like training dogs as a hobby at some point. Like, or they have a real, most of us had like a really challenging dog and then we learned a lot about dog training and then we became dog trainers. That's like a large percentage of us. Um. So maybe you look at that and you go Like I got started, I had a work colleague that was really severely aggressive towards other dogs and the way that that was handled with me being a teenager, um, handling him was, I had a lot of people who really cared about me, who really tried to help me, who didn't know how to help. dog with aggression and when I broke into the field, I wanted to help people that were like me that had a dog that was problematic and I wanted to make sure that they got like good advice, the advice that wouldn't make things worse. So like, I did take dog directed, like a lot of dog directed aggression cases in the beginning, because it's what I knew a lot about because of my own personal situation, um, grew into, I found out that intra household aggression is really interesting to me and something that do a really good job with, even though it is a really high stakes, scary, heartbreaking thing a lot of the time, and has just kind of like snowballed. And I did take a lot of dogs who are agility dogs who had struggles that made agility hard for them. And continue to do that, less so problems that are happening actually inside the ring. It's mostly other problems that are kind of affecting performance, like stranger directed aggression, dog directed aggression, things like that. So the dog is really having a hard time in that environment. So it just kind of like, it just snowballed. So I, and I would encourage everybody to get involved on a hobby level, like take your dog to nose work classes, if you like that kind of thing. Like, I There's a good argument against making it your hobby too, but as I already said, I've decided that that argument doesn't exist for me, so I, I do encourage people to go train their dogs, um, as a hobby as well. I do, if nothing else, it improves your chops. It makes you better because you're actually training all the time and not just instructing and not just kind of talking at people. You could even just go, what kind of dogs do I like? And then what are the problems that they have? Right. Right. Or like if you, oh no, go on. If you really like, I don't know if you really love, like toy breeds, Cavaliers, stuff like that. Like if those are the, your jam, like you probably should learn a little bit of separation anxiety.' cause a lot of 'em have it like that. That's probably where you're going. or you're doing, you know. Walks for these dogs because they don't want to be home by themselves all day long or like, you know, Ask yourself what dogs you like. I like dogs that are a little bit too much. Like, I like dogs that are pretty intense. Like, I like them like that. Probably I see myself in them because I'm a little bit too much and So I kind of go that direction. These are the problems they have. They have a lot of aggression, a lot of reactivity, like they have a lot of generalized anxiety. That's just who they are as people. So, I like them. I work with them. If you like, you know, maybe, maybe you want to help people do self trained service dogs because you like sweet laid back retrievers and poodles. Like, maybe that's what you like. So, go that direction. Like, I think that's a smart question to ask. Is like, what are the, what are my favorite kinds of dogs? And then what are the, what do they need help with? Yes. Ooh, yeah. Well, and something I was going to add on top of that is like, You, most of us follow other trainers, so we're going to be seeing other trainers training. Do you like how they're training? Do you see yourself doing that type of training? Ooh, does that really fire you up and you get excited when you get to see those interactions? Okay, maybe you like reactivity training. Me, you know, it just, it's totally finding what we're good at and leaning into it. And yeah, it's following that kind of that feeling of like I'm watching this and it's lighting something up in me. And so I'm going to just go that direction, a good way of lighting up, not, not an angry good way. Not a good, yeah, not a bad fuel, not drain. Yes. oh my gosh, this conversation has been so incredible. Sarah, thank you so much. Um, any last bit of advice you have to share with anyone wherever they are in their walk of life of their business right now? I think I'm gonna repeat the like, Do it. Own, own who you actually are. Like, put it out there. Be, be you. Be prepared that people won't like that. But those aren't the people for you then. But those aren't the people for you, so you're, you're weeding them out. Um, and also just, if it makes you feel yucky, it's not for you. Just, it's nothing supposed, it's not supposed to make you feel that way. It's not for you. That comment's not for you to read. That person's not for you to follow. That client's not for you. Maybe pull out of that driveway and just keep driving, if you Have the experience that I had today, I definitely would have like, Oh, I think this is the wrong address. Yeah. Just kind of pass them on to somebody else. But, um, thank you so much, Mandy. This was a really fun conversation for me to have. I'm I went to all kinds of different places. So that's always good. True, true ADHD fashion. I try to guide us on a path and it zigzags a little bit. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. I definitely intend to have you on for another episode. Sounds good. I'm here. I'm here for it. And if you like what we're doing here on the Leashed Mind podcast and you want to help others find us, make sure you subscribe to our YouTube channel, follow us on social media, give us a rating wherever you got your podcasts, whether that's leaving a review on Apple or giving us a star rating on Spotify, or just leaving a little R plus on our Facebook page. It's all appreciated. Thank you. And we will be back with another episode. Um,