492: Scott Galloway - Finding What You're Good At, Handling Criticism, & What It Means To Be A Man

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Jim Collins told me on episode number 216 that the
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single greatest determining factor in my long-term success or failure
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would be my who, who I chose to surround myself with.
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And that conversation has had a huge impact on how
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I've designed my business. And one of the most important
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elements or services that I provide is my Learning Leader Circle.
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And I open up applications one time per year. And
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that time is now at learningleaderscircle.com. Now, this is the
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most inefficient element of my business because I personally read
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every application and I personally choose who will go on
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to the next round and then who will ultimately be
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one of the 12 people to be in my next
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Learning Leader Circle. And I only do it one time
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per year. And that time is now. If you are intentional...
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about surrounding yourself with others who will push you, challenge you,
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make you think differently. If you're willing to self-reflect and
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do some work, this could be for you. And you
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can apply at learningleaderscircle.com. We meet once per month on Zoom,
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and then we meet one time per year in person
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for our leadership retreat for members of my Learning Leader Circle.
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So if you'd like to apply, go to learningleaderscircle.com. Welcome
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to the Learning Leader Show, presented by Insight Global. I
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am your host, Ryan Hawk. Thank you so much for
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being here. Text HAWK to 66866 to become part of
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Mindful Monday. You, along with tens of thousands of other
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learning leaders from all over the world, will receive a
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carefully curated email from me each Monday morning to help
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you start your week off right today. You'll also receive
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details about how my book, The Pursuit of Excellence, will
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help you become a more effective leader. Text HAWK to 66866. Now,
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on tonight's featured leader, Scott Galloway is a professor at
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NYU's Stern School of Business, a serial entrepreneur. He has
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founded nine firms, including L2, Red Envelope, Profit, and Section 4.
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In 2012, he He was named one of the world's
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50 best business school professors. He's the author of multiple
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best-selling books, including The Algebra of Happiness, The Four, and Adrift.
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During our conversation, we discuss why, quote, follow your passion
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is bad advice. And then who is the most dangerous
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person in the world and what... we can do about
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it and how to become a better storyteller we go
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deep there and then what it means to be a
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great mom or dad and much more while scott is
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controversial to some and his language is colorful i appreciate
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the fact that scott is willing to admit when he's
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wrong and he surrounds himself with people who don't always
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agree with him so that he can learn and get better.
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And those are the types of people that I like
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to have conversations with. So I hope you enjoy. It's
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Scott Galloway. Scott, great to have you back on The
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Learning Leader Show. Welcome, man.
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Ryan, great to be back.
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So to get started, you've spent the bulk of your
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career surrounded by leaders who have sustained excellence over an
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extended period of time, not the one-hit wonders or had
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a little bit, but sustained excellence. What have you found
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to be some of the common themes, behaviors, virtues, mindsets
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of those leaders who have sustained excellence?
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That's an interesting question. Because at the age of 26
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in business school, I started a consulting firm that largely
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was hired by CMOs and CEOs. So These are individuals
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who were kind of rounding third in terms of their
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career and had a lot of influence. The kind of
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factors I would say are a few things. One, it
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sounds passe, but they demonstrate excellence. I don't care if
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you're the CEO of Goldman Sachs or someone running with
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the Red Cross. There's a function at that organization they
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can do as well or better than anyone else. People
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want to follow excellence. Two, and we don't talk about
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this a lot, they hold people accountable. They regularly fire people.
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They regularly demand more from people. They regularly say, you
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are not doing your job or you are not living.
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Up to your potential, your expectations. We have for you.
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And third, and this is counter to the cartoon, I think,
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that is made of very successful people. They're generally kind
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people who establish a lot of goodwill with.
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A lot of people along the way.
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Distinct of the cartoon of Monty Burns owning the nuclear
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power plant and the well-publicized stories of people who are
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assholes getting to the top, to get to the top
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in an organization, you not only have to have a
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lot of allies, but you have to have a dearth
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of enemies. And people want good people to win. So
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I have generally found, and people don't like to say
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this because there's an assumption that there's an inverse correlation
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between wealth and character, but I have generally found that
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very successful people are high-character people very strong citizens that
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are good people.
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Who's the first person you think of when you think
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of the word excellence?
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Gosh, that's a good one.
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I've worked with a lot of.
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Outstanding leaders. I mean, weird ones.
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Howard Lester at Williams-Sonoma was an outstanding merchant. Bob Hawes
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at Levi Strauss & Company was very concerned about the
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community I just, there's just a ton of people I've
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worked with who were just sort of an inspiration to
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be around and watch them. Hamid Moghadam, a guy who
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originally came here from Iran who now runs Prologis, was
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just so kind of insightful and smart all the time.
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He could just kind of sum up the situation. My
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business partner, Catherine Dillon, is like, there's two types of leaders.
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There's the inspiring leader. I like There's the inspiring leader
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or there's the player coach. Inspiring leader can get in
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front of all hands, set a direction or star, and
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everyone thinks, gosh, this guy or gal is just so inspiring.
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I'm going to follow this person.
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I think that type of leadership is superseded or trumped
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by what I'll call the player coach leader. And my
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partner who's run all of my companies or who was
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my partner at L2 and now is running Property Media,
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she's a player coach. She'll pull up her chair next
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to someone and say, okay.
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This is how you edit a video.
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And this is how, this is what's good and what's
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wrong about this. She just trains people and establishes tremendous
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loyalty by doing the work with them. And I find
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those leaders are more sustainable. People who partner with people
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and say, I'm going to make you much better at
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what you do because I'm so good at it. And
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I'm going to sit next to you in the chair
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next to you metaphorically or physically and teach you how
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to do something.
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So it sounds like you've done a good job of
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partnering with people who can run the business. The reason
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I bring this up is because your ability to produce
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extremely great content consistently is, I mean, it's incredible. I've
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listened to, I told you last time we talked, I
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listened to every Prof G episode. I still have, even
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since then, we talked two years ago. But you publish
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a book now, I think the cadence you're looking for
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is every 18 months, you write a weekly blog post,
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you publish a Three to four podcasts a week if
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you include the one you do with Kara, and now
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that Prof G is expanding. You charge six figures per keynote,
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probably high six figures from what I'm hearing. You're on boards.
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You consult with leaders. That's a lot of stuff, man,
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including being a husband and a dad. To me, it's
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kind of aspirational. It's inspiring. And so I guess the
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natural question is, how do you do it?
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So first off, you're being generous. And thank you.
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Those are kind words. And, you know, listening to young people,
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the mistake I made is that people that have achieved
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some level of success don't need to hear a compliment
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or that you're giving up something when you give someone
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a compliment. I had this weird fucked up vision of
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masculinity where somehow it made me less of a man
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to express admiration for other people.
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And you don't have that problem.
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And it's smart because no matter where you get in life,
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it just feels really good to have talented, thoughtful people
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say nice things about you.
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Anyways.
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I learned early on my only real talent is the
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ability to attract and retain talented people. And I'm not
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one of these humble brag guys. People are more talented
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than me. I'm a very talented guy. I work very hard.
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But when people see my content, sometimes they make the
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mistake of thinking it's me with a handheld camera and
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I'm doing the charts and sketching this shit out. And
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they're like, how can you do all this? I'm like, well,
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I don't do all this. I do a fraction of it.
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I try to pay people really well. I try to
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take a vested interest in their success. I focus on
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compensation because I think people, generally speaking, go to work
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to learn something and increase their human capital, but mostly
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to try and create economic security for them and their families.
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And I've always tried to find talented people and just
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say to them, look, come join me.
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I'm very good at what I do.
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I have a.
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Economic security for myself and other people. I'm going to
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do better than you. I'm going to own more of
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this company, but you're going to do really well. And
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I've worked with the same people, many of the same
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people for, you know, I have my editor in chief
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I hired out of Yale 29 years ago. And he's
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just kind of occasionally pontoons in and out of my life.
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So agency or greatness is in the agency of others,
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full stop. If you want to be an entrepreneur, people say, well,
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what do I do?
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How do I start?
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I'm like, the first thing you got to do is
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find someone great who rounds out your skill set, because
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it is a creative, there is a network effect to people.
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And I believe this in terms of relationships at the
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most basic level, producing kids, producing a business, producing any organism.
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You cannot do it alone. Nothing really wonderful ever gets
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accomplished alone. Those Japanese soldiers who were left behind in
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the Philippine islands and retreated into the hills and told,
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just hold the island. And they had to send their
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commissioning officers 20 or 30 years later to convince them
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to get off the fucking mountain. They did a lot
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of studies on these guys. They learned nothing. They weren't
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more self-actualized. They weren't in better shape. They didn't have
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any deep thoughts about war. They accomplished nothing except occasionally
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coming down into a small hapless village and terrorizing it.
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you have to have, at a very basic level, and
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this is one of the things I worry about with
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young men, you've got to have connections. And the people
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who are successful aggregate talented people around them. And loyalty
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is a function of appreciation. Do you pay your people well?
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Do you take a vested interest in their success? Do
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you celebrate their success publicly? Do you occasionally get out
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of the way and let them do a press release
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and get interviewed on TV? You're not the only one
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with an ego in the company. So My achievement, you know,
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and I haven't started billion-dollar companies. I sold one company
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for $ 160 million. I sold another one for $ 38 when
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I was very young. So I've had good companies, but
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I've never had, like, a big, big win. But the
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things they've all had in common is really talented people,
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and we become emotionally and, you know, financially invested in
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each other's success.
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You mentioned what your fear was. When it comes to men,
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I want to talk a little bit about masculinity. It's
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almost like you say that word and people cringe. And
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you've written that the most dangerous person in the world
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is a young man who's broke and alone. Can you
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share more about that as well as what it means
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to be a man?
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So there's just a ton. The most unstable violent societies
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in the world all have one thing in common. They
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have a disproportionate number of men. who aren't attaching to work,
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aren't attaching to school, aren't attaching to a mate. And
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usually the societies have Porsche polygamy, where the top decile
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of men in terms of wealth have multiple wives. And
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as a result, young men don't have any mating opportunities,
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don't have any economic opportunities. And men are much more
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risk aggressive than women. So when they find they have
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no partner, no guardrails, no money, they become exceptionally risk aggressive,
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even if it means revolution or violence. And we are
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producing way too many of them in the United States.
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The attack on Salman Rushdie, in my view, wasn't a
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story of the fatwa. It was a story of a
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young man living in his mother's basement who had no prospects.
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And when young men are graduating from college at half
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the rate as women, for every two women who graduate
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from college in the next five years, there's only going
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to be one man. when seven of 10 high school
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valedictorians are girls, when a third of men under the
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age of 30 haven't had sex in the last year,
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and people hear the word sex and their brain goes
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different places, but that is a key step to the
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elemental foundation of a society and happiness in my view,
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and that is a relationship with a partner, we're producing
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a generation of economically and emotionally unviable men. And the
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knock-on effect there is that women made socioeconomically horizontally and up,
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men horizontally and down, The bottom line is a woman
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who has a college degree, which we're producing a lot of,
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they aren't interested in establishing relationships with men who don't
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have college degrees or men who aren't economically and emotionally viable.
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And then you layer in the pandemic where everyone has
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not been socialized and you layer in how many single
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parent households we have. I grew up in a single
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parent household. Mother was the light of my life. But
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the reality is girls in single parent households have similar
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outcomes to girls in dual parent households. Boys fall off
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the tracks. Without a male role model, physically a parent
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in a young boy's life, they become immediately two or
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three times as likely to be incarcerated, much more likely
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to not graduate from high school. So I think there
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is what I'll call a crisis not only among young men,
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but a crisis among men my age who aren't stepping
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up and doing what I think is the ultimate expression
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of masculinity, and that is getting involved in the health
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and well-being of a child that isn't yours. And when
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I think about masculinity, a couple of things. One, I
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don't think it's the domain of people born men. I
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think some women demonstrate. I think Margaret Thatcher was masculine.
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I think masculinity is wonderful. It's a societal made construct
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as is feminism. And it's not necessarily the domain of
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people with outdoor plumbing, for lack of a better term.
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But for me, masculinity is the ability to garner strength
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and resources such that you can protect others. Real men
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plant trees, the shade of which they will never sit under.
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For me, that's what it is to be a man.
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I think, unfortunately, over the last decade or two decades,
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some very popular figures in media and in politics have
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conflated or led to this dangerous conflation of masculinity and toxicity.
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Men and masculinity play an incredibly important role. It's a
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wonderful thing. It doesn't mean making people unsafe. It doesn't
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mean mocking the disabled. It doesn't mean being prone to
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misogynistic content. It doesn't mean leveraging power at work to
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put people in uncomfortable situations. So I think we need
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some help redefining masculinity and teaching young men that being
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a man is super important. You just have to identify
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early what does it mean to be a man.
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What's it like when you get criticized publicly for saying
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stuff like that?
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Well, it hurts. You'd like to think that, I mean,
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You put up a face and you say, well, you know,
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you got to let that stuff roll off of you.
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And having a certain amount of influence, you know, intellectually
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that if you're not, if you don't get criticism, it
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means you're not saying anything. And also sometimes, Ryan, I
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fuck up. Sometimes I get it wrong and people come
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after me and I try to learn and evolve. I
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use the M word. I mean, we're all adults here.
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On my podcast, I refer to a product as the
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tallest midget.
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And I got this really lovely email.
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You just called Kara that like last week, I think.
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Yeah, that's exactly right.
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And I got this really lovely email from this couple
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in London saying their kids suffered from, I don't want
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to totally pervert the word, but basically dwarfism. And they said,
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that makes our kid feel bad. It makes us feel bad.
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And I thought that is the last way. That is
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the last fucking thing I want to do is make
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a little girl and parents feel bad. And also, It's
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not a big give. It's not a big give to say,
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I don't need to use that word.
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I can find other metaphors.
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So I think the ability to take thoughtful criticism, I
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worry that masculinity or leadership has been incorrectly taught to
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young people to always double down. That if someone comes
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after you saying, that's my right, you're being too sensitive, Karen,
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and start using the M word over and over.
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No, that's not.
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That's not what it means to be.
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A man or a leader. It means learning and evolving.
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And you have to understand the difference between being right
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and effective.
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You want to evolve.
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If people push back on you and you think you're right,
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occasionally get back in their face. But I used to
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get back in people's faces much more. I try to
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be more gracious. I try not to argue with strangers.
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But yeah, when people come after you, it just takes
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a toll. There's no getting around it. They say very
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mean things. Sometimes there's a kernel of truth in what
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they say, and that's upsetting. But I just don't think
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there's any getting around it. What I try and tell
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myself is if you're blessed with economic security and people
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who love you, my kids are going to want me
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to take them to school tomorrow morning, regardless of what
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stupid shit I say this afternoon on a podcast. If
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you're blessed with those things, you have an obligation to
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speak what you think is the truth. You don't want
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to be unkind. You don't want to ever make or
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try not to make people feel bad about themselves. But
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this conversation around masculinity, I think is an important conversation.
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It's also a dangerous one because people make a caricature
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of your words. They make a cartoon of what you're
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saying and they take it to an ugly place and
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you get attacked and sometimes they are right and you're wrong,
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but it's worth it. You know, it's an important conversation.
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And so, uh, but yeah, in some, when people come
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after you, um, and I get a lot of it
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on Twitter and some of it might just because I'm, I,
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you know, I'm, I'm a little bit too sensitive sometimes.
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There's no getting around it.
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It hurts. Speaking of metaphors, I think the mark, when
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I deconstruct excellent communicators, storytellers, they do this really well.
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And you don't even necessarily realize it unless you're really
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thinking deeply. And you constantly do this. And I think
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it's so hard. It's something that I have not built
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any skill for yet. And I'd love to. Is this
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a naturally kind of ingrained part of you that you
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like the peanut butter and chocolate of whatever, right? The
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regular sayings, these metaphors that bring something to life or
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make you think differently. I've met some other, I'm thinking
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of a former prosecutor who actually is an editor for
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my books. He does this all the time. Like, how
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do you do that? Like, how do you come up
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with these things? So how, what is it in your
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brain that that helps you create these metaphors probably sometimes
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on the fly or in your writing as well?
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Again, you're being generous.
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So it's like everything else, any other skill is oration
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or whatever it is. The skill is a decent amount.
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I think it's probably 51% nature. My father was this
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charming Scotsman who ended up later in life without a
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college degree, giving management seminars. He could just hold a crowd.
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And I think I inherited some of that from them.
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And then the rest is nurture, specifically practice. I stood
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in front of 300 kids, when I say kids, 27-year-olds,
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second-year MBAs, twice a week, sometimes five times a week
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for 20 years. I just have a lot of practice
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in front of people. And you're already blessed.
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You have a great voice.
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That is not your fault. You were born with a
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great voice. And when people hear you on a podcast,
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you will have more credibility than you deserve. But occasionally
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when I hear an interesting turn of phrase or an
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interesting metaphor for something or great data, I make a
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mental note and I wait till there's an opportunity to
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do stuff on the fly. I think people would be
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shocked how few David Letterman's jokes were impromptu. They give
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them a series of jokes. This is what we're talking about.
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Here's the opportunity to use this soundbite. And when I
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00:21:03.109 --> 00:21:07.569
go into, I was on MSNBC last night promoting my book,
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00:21:08.250 --> 00:21:11.829
I kind of have these talking points and I know,
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00:21:12.269 --> 00:21:14.490
and there's certain jokes and certain phrases I know I
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00:21:14.529 --> 00:21:16.609
will get a chance to use. So when you hear something,
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00:21:16.650 --> 00:21:20.650
a really interesting idea, thought, chart, piece of data, do
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00:21:20.690 --> 00:21:22.730
yourself a favor. And I'm not as good as I
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00:21:22.799 --> 00:21:25.700
should be, but I have a good memory. Take out
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00:21:25.740 --> 00:21:28.920
your phone and in notes, write it down and have
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00:21:28.960 --> 00:21:31.920
an opportunity to use it again. And people prepare differently.
401
00:21:32.019 --> 00:21:35.640
I'm more kind of winging it. I like to, even
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00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:37.960
if I fumble on my words, I find that it
403
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:40.319
comes across as more authentic and other people feel more
404
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.759
comfortable standing in the mirror and just going through talk
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kind of, you know, very meticulously. It's just sort of
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00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:49.259
what works for you, but it's like anything else. It's
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00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:51.359
nature and it's just a shit ton of practice. I mean,
408
00:21:52.039 --> 00:21:54.859
ministers and rabbis are in front of their congregation every Sunday.
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00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:56.579
What do you know? They get really good at it.
410
00:21:56.799 --> 00:22:00.059
So like anything else, some of it you're born with
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00:22:00.140 --> 00:22:01.500
and some of it is just practice.
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00:22:02.640 --> 00:22:04.650
Typically at the end of each of my conversations, I
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00:22:04.789 --> 00:22:10.170
ask my guests for career slash life advice for someone
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00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:13.049
who's a bit earlier in their career. And every once
415
00:22:13.109 --> 00:22:14.730
in a while, even though this is going out of style,
416
00:22:14.750 --> 00:22:16.369
but every once in a while, someone will give the
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00:22:16.410 --> 00:22:18.970
follow your passion advice, even though there's the Cal Newport
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00:22:19.009 --> 00:22:21.809
book and certainly your stuff's out there. When you hear
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00:22:21.910 --> 00:22:27.029
and see somebody say, follow your passion, what do you think?
420
00:22:28.609 --> 00:22:31.829
Well, I think it's dangerous advice because people usually mix
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00:22:31.849 --> 00:22:35.359
the word passion with something involving sports, owning a nightclub
422
00:22:35.400 --> 00:22:37.059
or restaurant. I wanted to be an athlete. I would
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00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:38.759
have liked to have made my living as an athlete.
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And fortunately for me, I went to UCLA and UCLA
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00:22:42.980 --> 00:22:46.880
athletic department disavowed me of that notion really quickly, really crisply.
426
00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.309
But typically speaking, the sex appeal of an industry is
427
00:22:50.329 --> 00:22:53.009
inversely correlated to the return on investment. And that is
428
00:22:54.140 --> 00:22:56.039
I don't invest in anything cool. A friend of mine
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00:22:56.059 --> 00:22:58.660
is starting a members-only club for artists and people in
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00:22:58.680 --> 00:22:59.480
the entertainment industry.
431
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I won't get near it.
432
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:03.900
Another friend of mine is starting a healthcare software company
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00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:05.259
for healthcare maintenance workers.
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Sounds awful.
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00:23:05.940 --> 00:23:07.180
I want to put a gun in my mouth when
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he describes it to me.
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00:23:08.000 --> 00:23:11.000
And I'm like, that's money. That's where money is. So
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what I would say is.
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00:23:11.859 --> 00:23:15.380
Find something that you're really good at. And also look
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00:23:15.420 --> 00:23:17.819
at the industry. You can make a really good living
441
00:23:17.960 --> 00:23:21.690
if you're in the top quartile of accountants. To make
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00:23:21.730 --> 00:23:23.910
a really good living as an actor or as a
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00:23:23.930 --> 00:23:30.640
basketball player, you have to be 0.0001%. So look at
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what you're really good.
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00:23:31.940 --> 00:23:34.079
Just try and find your talent. That's your job.
446
00:23:34.119 --> 00:23:36.279
Don't find your passion. Find your talent. Now, generally speaking,
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00:23:36.299 --> 00:23:39.140
you can't be really great at anything you don't enjoy
448
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:39.779
or you hate.
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00:23:40.339 --> 00:23:41.859
I like numbers. I like data.
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00:23:42.039 --> 00:23:45.099
I like communicating. So I knew that was where I
451
00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.299
was going to be. But I knew I was not even,
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00:23:48.500 --> 00:23:52.220
I wasn't even a 90th percentile of athletes, much less 99.99.
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00:23:52.220 --> 00:23:55.380
A lot of my friends from UCLA went into Hollywood
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and into media. And I thought, okay, I can write well,
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but I'm not in the 99.9th percentile to be a
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00:24:01.490 --> 00:24:03.910
script writer. You have to, I mean, there's just millions
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00:24:03.950 --> 00:24:07.210
of scripts. So what are you great at? Find it
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and then invest the requisite 10,000 hours, bullshit, breaking through
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00:24:11.740 --> 00:24:14.630
hard things. Because what happens is, When people say follow
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00:24:14.650 --> 00:24:18.369
your passion, work is hard. And the only thing you
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00:24:18.390 --> 00:24:20.890
know that's going to happen in the work world is injustice.
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00:24:21.069 --> 00:24:23.180
You will get fired. Someone less talented than you will
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00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:23.880
get paid more.
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00:24:24.920 --> 00:24:26.099
There will be bullshit at work.
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00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:29.480
But your ability to persevere through those things is important
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00:24:29.500 --> 00:24:31.559
because what happens is you think, well, I'm not enjoying this.
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00:24:31.599 --> 00:24:35.259
It must not be my passion. No, it's called work.
468
00:24:35.460 --> 00:24:37.720
And I would say this, Jay-Z followed his passion and
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00:24:37.759 --> 00:24:41.109
as a billionaire, assume you are not Jay-Z. And if
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00:24:41.150 --> 00:24:44.440
you're really good at something, And you can become amazing
471
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.119
at it. The accoutrements of being amazing at something and
472
00:24:47.140 --> 00:24:53.380
applying grit to it, camaraderie, money, people attracted to you, prestige,
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00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:57.180
all of those things will make you passionate about whatever
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00:24:57.240 --> 00:25:01.200
it is. The world's best tax accountants are passionate about
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00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:04.210
tax law because they get all sorts of prestige and
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00:25:04.230 --> 00:25:06.049
they find a circle of people that just think they're
477
00:25:06.069 --> 00:25:10.910
incredibly impressive. So I'm more about find your talent and
478
00:25:10.950 --> 00:25:14.039
be very wary at a young age of people telling
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you to just follow, uh, your passion.
480
00:25:16.940 --> 00:25:22.250
I've noticed a lot of your recent interviews. You ask, um,
481
00:25:22.849 --> 00:25:27.769
especially guys about being a great dad. Uh, I, I
482
00:25:27.809 --> 00:25:30.690
know from having a podcast that I usually ask questions
483
00:25:30.730 --> 00:25:32.990
like that because that's what I'm most curious about. So
484
00:25:33.009 --> 00:25:34.329
I would imagine it has to be one of the
485
00:25:34.710 --> 00:25:37.690
things that you're most curious about. What have you learned
486
00:25:38.119 --> 00:25:40.880
since it seems that you've had this big shift in
487
00:25:40.940 --> 00:25:44.609
focus on asking others about what it means to be
488
00:25:44.650 --> 00:25:45.269
a great dad.
489
00:25:46.789 --> 00:25:47.849
Are you a dad, Ryan?
490
00:25:48.250 --> 00:25:48.470
Yes.
491
00:25:48.910 --> 00:25:50.549
How many kids do you have? You have two little ones, right?
492
00:25:50.670 --> 00:25:50.970
Five.
493
00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:52.809
Fucking A, five kids?
494
00:25:53.289 --> 00:25:58.650
Yeah. How old are they? 15 to eight.
495
00:26:00.250 --> 00:26:04.210
Jeez, that's, I mean, that just boggles my mind. Look,
496
00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:05.269
I think.
497
00:26:06.990 --> 00:26:11.549
I do initially think I'm speaking, this is pulse marketing.
498
00:26:13.730 --> 00:26:14.490
What changed for me?
499
00:26:15.500 --> 00:26:18.599
When my kid came marching out of my girlfriend, I
500
00:26:19.680 --> 00:26:23.180
got terrified because I thought, okay, it's no longer about me.
501
00:26:23.259 --> 00:26:26.349
It's really, I think the first time somebody dies is
502
00:26:27.069 --> 00:26:28.710
sort of when you grow up or you recognize the
503
00:26:28.730 --> 00:26:33.259
harshness of life. Someone you love deeply and who loves
504
00:26:33.299 --> 00:26:35.099
you a great deal will get sick and die.
505
00:26:35.240 --> 00:26:35.960
That's part of life.
506
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.680
And just the harshness, the raw harshness of life is
507
00:26:38.700 --> 00:26:39.940
just hits you square.
508
00:26:39.779 --> 00:26:40.299
In the face.
509
00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:43.119
Scott, I'll tell you, I went to the funeral this
510
00:26:43.160 --> 00:26:47.980
week of a 39 year old guy who had medals
511
00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:54.269
draped throughout the funeral home of winning triathlons, uh, cancer,
512
00:26:54.670 --> 00:26:58.720
you know? And it's just like, oh, Anyway, it just, it's,
513
00:26:58.900 --> 00:27:00.740
it's still emotional right now to think about that. It
514
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:02.599
was like, oh, and he's got two kids, you know, wife,
515
00:27:02.660 --> 00:27:07.180
who's my wife's like best friend, just like, oh, so yeah,
516
00:27:07.519 --> 00:27:07.920
I'm with you.
517
00:27:08.440 --> 00:27:13.730
The unimaginable happens to everybody and it's impossible to understand.
518
00:27:13.950 --> 00:27:16.230
And some good things come out of it around perspective
519
00:27:16.529 --> 00:27:18.390
and the finite nature of life and how important it
520
00:27:18.430 --> 00:27:22.089
is to be brave with your emotions and that any
521
00:27:22.250 --> 00:27:25.450
embarrassment or fear around risk or fear about loving people
522
00:27:25.470 --> 00:27:27.460
sort of you realize, well, that fear is just stupid
523
00:27:27.480 --> 00:27:29.799
because we're all going to be dead soon. With that,
524
00:27:30.319 --> 00:27:34.220
the mortality rate is 100%. The other key, I think,
525
00:27:34.579 --> 00:27:36.380
moment in your life is when you have a kid.
526
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:39.299
And as a man, I felt, and it's why the
527
00:27:39.339 --> 00:27:42.200
Breaking Bad franchise, I think, was just so incredibly powerful.
528
00:27:42.779 --> 00:27:44.900
I immediately thought, and it's crass, we don't talk about it.
529
00:27:44.900 --> 00:27:47.710
I'm like, my first thought was not, oh, I love
530
00:27:47.750 --> 00:27:50.509
this thing. I didn't love my kid when it first
531
00:27:50.569 --> 00:27:53.630
came out. I fell in love with it. They're supposedly,
532
00:27:53.670 --> 00:27:56.470
they say, There's a hallmark version where you look at
533
00:27:56.509 --> 00:27:59.369
this thing and you're in love. What I felt was,
534
00:28:00.049 --> 00:28:04.009
I need to make more money. My wife is going to,
535
00:28:04.230 --> 00:28:06.410
my wife was really good at making money, or now
536
00:28:06.470 --> 00:28:08.630
my wife, my then girlfriend, she worked at Goldman Sachs,
537
00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:10.269
but she was going to need to take time off.
538
00:28:11.779 --> 00:28:13.880
And I thought, I'm the man. I got to go
539
00:28:13.910 --> 00:28:15.839
hunt the wildebeest and bring it home. I got to
540
00:28:15.880 --> 00:28:19.559
protect my family. And in a capitalist society, it's unfair,
541
00:28:19.619 --> 00:28:22.990
but it's true. Your kids' opportunities and lifestyle, And your
542
00:28:23.029 --> 00:28:26.309
family's lifestyle is largely driven by economics. And whether you
543
00:28:26.349 --> 00:28:28.289
like that or not, that's the system you have signed
544
00:28:28.369 --> 00:28:32.730
up for. So I've just started working all the time.
545
00:28:32.779 --> 00:28:34.700
I've always worked a lot, but I took some time
546
00:28:34.859 --> 00:28:36.500
off or I kind of wound down and sort of
547
00:28:36.539 --> 00:28:38.660
just was a single guy living in New York and
548
00:28:38.759 --> 00:28:42.000
really enjoying myself. And when my kid came along, my
549
00:28:42.059 --> 00:28:44.180
first thought was, I've just got to make more money.
550
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:46.789
And it was a crass, I've either got to make
551
00:28:46.829 --> 00:28:48.369
more money or I've got to figure out a way
552
00:28:48.410 --> 00:28:50.170
to lower our burn because living in New York with
553
00:28:50.210 --> 00:28:55.460
a kid is just, just an extraordinary, requires extraordinary lubrication
554
00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:59.509
of resources. So one, I think for me, it was,
555
00:28:59.809 --> 00:29:03.470
I'm responsible. I think young men should take economic responsibility for,
556
00:29:03.710 --> 00:29:07.950
at some point for their parents and for their, for
557
00:29:07.970 --> 00:29:10.970
their family. And by the way, sometimes taking economic responsibility
558
00:29:10.990 --> 00:29:15.750
for your family is acknowledging and respecting that your partner
559
00:29:15.789 --> 00:29:17.609
may be better at that whole money thing and getting
560
00:29:17.670 --> 00:29:20.230
out of the way and being more supportive of your partner.
561
00:29:21.349 --> 00:29:24.890
I think that's also a demonstration that you're a man
562
00:29:24.930 --> 00:29:28.940
and you're serious about economic security. But the first was,
563
00:29:29.960 --> 00:29:33.859
I'm responsible for bringing home, you know, the bacon, quote unquote,
564
00:29:33.900 --> 00:29:39.309
and I got very serious about work. Two, there's no
565
00:29:39.349 --> 00:29:39.970
such thing as quality.
566
00:29:40.180 --> 00:29:40.420
Time.
567
00:29:41.519 --> 00:29:43.519
When your kids are going somewhere in your home, offer
568
00:29:43.559 --> 00:29:45.220
to drive them. I find being in the car is
569
00:29:45.259 --> 00:29:47.039
amazing because they're not looking right at you.
570
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:47.920
They don't have pressure.
571
00:29:48.539 --> 00:29:51.819
And occasionally they just say something that gives you insight
572
00:29:51.839 --> 00:29:54.950
into what they're thinking. And there's no such thing as
573
00:29:54.970 --> 00:29:58.200
quality time. These things are just so accidental. You're in
574
00:29:58.240 --> 00:30:01.609
your room and your kid says something and you just
575
00:30:01.650 --> 00:30:03.849
think about it and it's wonderful. So you have that
576
00:30:03.950 --> 00:30:08.470
moment of engagement where you feel closer to your kids
577
00:30:08.650 --> 00:30:12.130
and you just can't force it. Also, I had this
578
00:30:12.190 --> 00:30:15.980
vision that my kids would really be into CrossFit and
579
00:30:16.839 --> 00:30:20.980
Game of Thrones and management books because I thought they're
580
00:30:21.000 --> 00:30:22.839
gonna love me and admire me so much. They're gonna
581
00:30:22.900 --> 00:30:25.019
wanna engage in what I engaged in. The only way
582
00:30:25.059 --> 00:30:27.619
I could engage with my father growing up was to
583
00:30:27.660 --> 00:30:30.410
kind of pretend to like golf because that's all he enjoyed.
584
00:30:30.950 --> 00:30:32.430
And when you find out, if you want to really
585
00:30:32.450 --> 00:30:34.130
engage with your kids, you got to do the shit
586
00:30:34.170 --> 00:30:37.589
they're into. And my kids are into things that I'm
587
00:30:37.630 --> 00:30:40.849
not into. And it's painful. They like to play board games,
588
00:30:40.930 --> 00:30:44.059
which is the seventh ring of hell for me. But
589
00:30:44.150 --> 00:30:47.359
I play board games because occasionally we get one or
590
00:30:47.400 --> 00:30:50.079
two moments of engagement. So if you're fortunate enough to,
591
00:30:51.019 --> 00:30:53.269
I'm really into soccer right now. And one of the,
592
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:55.019
you know, we go to Premier League games all the
593
00:30:55.059 --> 00:30:56.859
time in the UK. Now we're living in London. And
594
00:30:57.809 --> 00:31:00.269
I have no interest in sports any longer, but I'm
595
00:31:00.309 --> 00:31:02.849
going to soccer games all the goddamn time because my kids,
596
00:31:02.910 --> 00:31:06.230
for some reason, have gone football mad. And we connect
597
00:31:06.319 --> 00:31:08.880
and we engage with each other. And then the basics
598
00:31:08.900 --> 00:31:11.180
you've heard, the best thing you can do for a
599
00:31:11.240 --> 00:31:15.039
kid in terms of his ability to have healthy relationships
600
00:31:15.859 --> 00:31:18.720
with women is to show a lot of respect for
601
00:31:18.740 --> 00:31:21.880
your mom and show a lot of respect for your partner.
602
00:31:22.140 --> 00:31:24.440
I think that they model the way you treat the
603
00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:28.339
women in your life. But those are Those are kind
604
00:31:28.380 --> 00:31:31.359
of the places I would start. It's just all about time.
605
00:31:32.000 --> 00:31:34.940
The reality is that you should take economic responsibility for
606
00:31:34.960 --> 00:31:39.109
the household and also just being just they will model you.
607
00:31:39.529 --> 00:31:40.089
They will model.
608
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:43.430
I stopped drinking a lot. I tried to dial down
609
00:31:43.490 --> 00:31:45.549
my marijuana smoking because I have a 15 year old
610
00:31:45.589 --> 00:31:47.150
in the house. I'm like, he's going to figure out
611
00:31:47.190 --> 00:31:50.730
what I'm doing and he's going to decide that's going
612
00:31:50.750 --> 00:31:52.990
to be cloud cover for what is acceptable for him.
613
00:31:53.849 --> 00:31:56.150
So I'm trying to, you know, quote unquote, if you
614
00:31:56.170 --> 00:31:59.819
will be a good role model, be very engaged. Um, anyways,
615
00:31:59.880 --> 00:32:01.920
all that, all that Hallmark channel stuff, I think it's
616
00:32:01.940 --> 00:32:02.539
pretty accurate.
617
00:32:03.140 --> 00:32:06.460
Your, your latest book, which we've touched kind of on it, um,
618
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.720
is called a drift America and 100 charts. And I
619
00:32:10.740 --> 00:32:15.000
mentioned before your, the prolific, uh, content creation and production
620
00:32:15.079 --> 00:32:18.519
kind of schedule you've created. Um, what made this, uh,
621
00:32:19.240 --> 00:32:20.640
the last one, I know you got to run, but what,
622
00:32:20.700 --> 00:32:23.349
what made this the book for right now?
623
00:32:25.759 --> 00:32:27.759
I think if you look at things from a, well,
624
00:32:27.799 --> 00:32:29.779
if you could only do one headline for the last
625
00:32:29.819 --> 00:32:34.619
hundred years, it would be America, Britain and Russia turn
626
00:32:34.640 --> 00:32:37.079
back fascism. That would be the one headline. If you
627
00:32:37.099 --> 00:32:39.160
could only have one newspaper headline for the last hundred years,
628
00:32:39.220 --> 00:32:43.329
it would be that we, British brains, Russian blood and
629
00:32:43.369 --> 00:32:46.069
American brawn turn back the greatest threat to humanity of
630
00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:48.269
the last several hundred years. If you could only have
631
00:32:48.390 --> 00:32:50.569
one headline for the last 50 years, it would be
632
00:32:51.430 --> 00:32:55.369
American-led prosperity has just been unprecedented. I think we just
633
00:32:55.390 --> 00:32:57.710
have so much to be proud of. And I think
634
00:32:57.750 --> 00:32:59.970
the most noble organization in the history of humanity is
635
00:32:59.990 --> 00:33:00.279
the U.S.
636
00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:00.710
Government.
637
00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:05.400
And I find it very distressing that while our most loyal,
638
00:33:05.460 --> 00:33:08.980
our most patriotic citizens are veterans because they invest so
639
00:33:09.019 --> 00:33:10.640
much in our country, similar to the way you become
640
00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:13.440
just unnaturally invested in the well-being of your kids because
641
00:33:13.460 --> 00:33:16.779
you invest so much, veterans are our most patriotic. I
642
00:33:16.839 --> 00:33:19.180
find right now our least patriotic are the most fortunate,
643
00:33:19.279 --> 00:33:22.849
and that is tech billionaires. who constantly say shit like
644
00:33:22.890 --> 00:33:24.430
government needs to get out of the way as they're
645
00:33:24.450 --> 00:33:30.359
cashing subsidies for their EVs or government is always inefficient
646
00:33:30.619 --> 00:33:33.579
as they invest in and make billions off of companies.
647
00:33:33.599 --> 00:33:35.440
The most valuable companies in the world all have one
648
00:33:35.460 --> 00:33:37.109
thing in common. I don't care if it's Moderna, if
649
00:33:37.140 --> 00:33:39.849
it's Google, if it's Apple, they're all built off of
650
00:33:39.890 --> 00:33:44.170
the investments funded by middle-class Americans where government had a
651
00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:46.549
long-term vision to put a man on the moon or
652
00:33:46.569 --> 00:33:49.269
to put satellites into space or to build this crazy
653
00:33:49.309 --> 00:33:52.880
thing communications vehicle called DARPA, which became the internet, or
654
00:33:52.920 --> 00:33:57.589
to invest in the medical research programs at Vanderbilt for vaccines.
655
00:33:58.430 --> 00:34:02.029
And it drives me crazy that these people would be
656
00:34:02.089 --> 00:34:06.829
so ungrateful that they would begin immediately start shitposting America.
657
00:34:07.470 --> 00:34:09.949
So I think young men are failing. I think we
658
00:34:09.969 --> 00:34:13.429
have a lack of patriotism, a lack of connective tissue.
659
00:34:14.130 --> 00:34:16.780
I'm really into World War II photography, and I have
660
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:20.670
this wonderful image, this colorized image of men getting off
661
00:34:20.690 --> 00:34:23.409
the landing craft at D-Day in Normandy just as they
662
00:34:23.429 --> 00:34:25.309
got off the landing craft. Two-thirds of them would not
663
00:34:25.329 --> 00:34:26.269
get off that beach.
664
00:34:26.590 --> 00:34:28.449
Average age, 26.
665
00:34:28.449 --> 00:34:31.510
Average salary on an inflation-adjusted basis, 800 bucks. And I
666
00:34:31.550 --> 00:34:33.969
can't imagine any of them knew who was a Republican
667
00:34:34.010 --> 00:34:36.239
or a Democrat left or right of them. And I
668
00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:39.940
find it just so disconcerting that 54% of Democrats are
669
00:34:39.980 --> 00:34:42.119
worried about their kids marrying a Republican. I find it
670
00:34:42.159 --> 00:34:44.360
just upsetting that a third of each party thinks the
671
00:34:44.400 --> 00:34:46.760
other party is their mortal enemy. America will never have
672
00:34:46.840 --> 00:34:50.420
greater allies. than other Americans. So I feel like we
673
00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:52.420
need more connective tissue. I think we need to celebrate
674
00:34:52.440 --> 00:34:54.980
our victories, but I think we need to join hands
675
00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:57.159
with our brothers and sisters across the nation and our
676
00:34:57.260 --> 00:35:02.719
allies again and restore the great middle class. China's brought
677
00:35:02.739 --> 00:35:05.400
a half a billion people into the middle class in
678
00:35:05.420 --> 00:35:08.579
the last 50 years. We've shed tens of millions. And
679
00:35:08.820 --> 00:35:11.840
the middle class is full stop the key to a
680
00:35:11.880 --> 00:35:12.800
healthy society.
681
00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:14.800
They fight our wars. They pay our taxes.
682
00:35:15.300 --> 00:35:18.610
You can't you can't really accomplish anything without a thriving
683
00:35:18.639 --> 00:35:22.289
middle class. And I also think we have opportunities around education,
684
00:35:23.090 --> 00:35:26.650
around technology, and to solve... I think the biggest things
685
00:35:26.690 --> 00:35:29.489
we face are trivial versus some of the things that
686
00:35:29.889 --> 00:35:32.050
people face in the middle of the last century. And
687
00:35:32.070 --> 00:35:35.389
there's this illusion of complexity that these problems are intractable.
688
00:35:35.590 --> 00:35:37.630
No, they're not. We can absolutely... There's.
689
00:35:37.550 --> 00:35:40.469
Absolutely nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed with
690
00:35:40.510 --> 00:35:42.090
what's right with it. So the book is an attempt
691
00:35:42.110 --> 00:35:45.420
to identify what I think are kind of the existential threats,
692
00:35:45.539 --> 00:35:46.820
and then proposed solutions.
693
00:35:47.920 --> 00:35:51.070
I love it. Adrift, American 100 charts, really well done,
694
00:35:51.119 --> 00:35:53.070
like all of the stuff that you produce, man. I
695
00:35:53.090 --> 00:35:55.210
really appreciate your time, Scott. I'd love to continue our
696
00:35:55.250 --> 00:35:56.610
dialogue as we both progress, man.
697
00:35:57.449 --> 00:36:00.489
Yeah, thanks so much, Ryan. And you're doing God's work.
698
00:36:00.510 --> 00:36:07.179
You're doing great work here and five kids. The fact
699
00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:11.989
that you're obviously in good shape, you look well-rested, but
700
00:36:12.070 --> 00:36:14.440
my gosh, that is crazy.
701
00:36:14.460 --> 00:36:15.760
How many boys, how many girls?
702
00:36:16.440 --> 00:36:18.960
So I take what you say seriously when it comes
703
00:36:19.059 --> 00:36:22.360
to you should sweat more than watch other people sweat.
704
00:36:22.360 --> 00:36:22.420
100%.
705
00:36:22.420 --> 00:36:25.300
When you said that, I mean, I played college football
706
00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:29.309
and after college a little bit, but I really believe that, man.
707
00:36:29.329 --> 00:36:31.829
I think that's a problem today is you look around
708
00:36:31.849 --> 00:36:33.449
and be like, what are you doing? Like you get
709
00:36:33.650 --> 00:36:37.150
one body. Again, I know that there are things that happen,
710
00:36:37.170 --> 00:36:39.030
but you got to take care of that thing, man.
711
00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:41.769
Like I know you're a big proponent of that. Yeah.
712
00:36:41.829 --> 00:36:44.269
This is not a rental. You own this thing and
713
00:36:44.309 --> 00:36:48.050
that's it. And I've always said to people under that
714
00:36:48.090 --> 00:36:49.590
are your age, you should be able to walk in
715
00:36:49.670 --> 00:36:52.539
any room and know one of two things, that if
716
00:36:52.579 --> 00:36:54.480
shit gets real, you can either kill and eat everybody
717
00:36:54.579 --> 00:36:58.340
or you can outrun them. And you're going to be happier.
718
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:00.619
You're less prone to depression. You'll have an easier time
719
00:37:00.679 --> 00:37:03.039
finding a mate. You'll be kinder because you won't feel
720
00:37:03.079 --> 00:37:06.449
physically threatened by other people because you're strong. I think
721
00:37:06.489 --> 00:37:09.099
physical fitness, if you look at our history, we were
722
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:11.960
either hunting or gathering, and we're happiest when we're outside
723
00:37:12.159 --> 00:37:15.780
and in motion. Exercise is the antidepressant.
724
00:37:16.539 --> 00:37:18.280
I agree. And it should be top priority because if
725
00:37:18.340 --> 00:37:20.500
this dies or fails, all the other stuff doesn't matter.
726
00:37:20.519 --> 00:37:21.159
The rest doesn't matter.
727
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:23.239
Doesn't matter. All right, man. I know we're over. I
728
00:37:23.260 --> 00:37:24.780
really appreciate it. Like I said, I'd like to keep
729
00:37:24.800 --> 00:37:25.340
talking as we go.
730
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:25.780
Thanks, man.
731
00:37:26.039 --> 00:37:26.289
Love it.
732
00:37:26.440 --> 00:37:26.719
Good luck.
733
00:37:33.070 --> 00:37:37.369
I enjoy my conversations with Scott Galloway because he's not
734
00:37:37.429 --> 00:37:41.690
afraid to share his perspective. And if you search online,
735
00:37:41.730 --> 00:37:44.880
he gets criticized a ton. And some of it is
736
00:37:44.960 --> 00:37:49.280
justifiably so, which I think he realizes as we talked
737
00:37:49.320 --> 00:37:52.420
about during this conversation. But he's willing to share what
738
00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:56.889
he thinks. He doesn't go along with the crowd. I
739
00:37:56.969 --> 00:37:59.730
agree with a lot of what he says, but not everything.
740
00:38:00.250 --> 00:38:04.659
And I think we all... should have conversations and surround
741
00:38:04.699 --> 00:38:09.900
ourselves with people where we may be aligned on values
742
00:38:10.119 --> 00:38:15.139
and ethics and integrity, but not necessarily aligned 100% on
743
00:38:15.849 --> 00:38:17.710
how we view the world. I think that's helpful. I
744
00:38:17.750 --> 00:38:20.030
think that's how we learn. And Scott is a person
745
00:38:20.070 --> 00:38:23.429
who can do that for a lot of people. I
746
00:38:23.469 --> 00:38:25.409
hope you enjoyed this one as much as I did.
747
00:38:25.449 --> 00:38:27.630
A few takeaways from my notes. There's no such thing
748
00:38:27.690 --> 00:38:32.820
as quality time. There's just time. appreciate the in-between moments,
749
00:38:32.860 --> 00:38:36.369
the car rides, the quote garbage time as Jerry Seinfeld
750
00:38:36.389 --> 00:38:40.449
calls it, that perspective shift will make you a more
751
00:38:40.510 --> 00:38:45.469
present parent and partner and friend. Then greatness is in
752
00:38:45.510 --> 00:38:48.219
the agency of others. When I asked Scott about how
753
00:38:48.260 --> 00:38:51.380
he's built his career, his first thought was about the
754
00:38:51.539 --> 00:38:55.039
others who he surrounded himself with. Greatness is in the
755
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:58.869
agency of others. Your ability to attract and retain talented
756
00:38:58.949 --> 00:39:02.519
people will be the difference in a good career and
757
00:39:02.539 --> 00:39:05.989
a good life and a great one. And then becoming
758
00:39:06.340 --> 00:39:10.590
an excellent communicator. I noted his use of metaphors and
759
00:39:10.690 --> 00:39:15.610
storytelling ability. And like most things in life, it's about practice.
760
00:39:15.650 --> 00:39:20.269
He spent 20 years teaching MBA students at the NYU
761
00:39:20.309 --> 00:39:23.949
Stern School of Business. And if we want to develop
762
00:39:24.070 --> 00:39:27.150
skills for something, we have to do it over and
763
00:39:27.429 --> 00:39:31.260
over and over. So if something is important to you, you, practice,
764
00:39:31.500 --> 00:39:34.679
get the reps, do it. Again, thank you so much
765
00:39:34.780 --> 00:39:37.000
for continuing to spread the message and telling a friend
766
00:39:37.059 --> 00:39:38.780
or two, hey, you should listen to this episode of
767
00:39:38.820 --> 00:39:42.059
The Learning Leader Show with Scott Galloway. I think he'll
768
00:39:42.079 --> 00:39:44.099
help you become a more effective leader. And because you
769
00:39:44.119 --> 00:39:47.019
continue to do that, and you continue to write reviews
770
00:39:47.079 --> 00:39:50.130
and rate the show, hopefully five stars on Apple Podcasts,
771
00:39:51.269 --> 00:39:54.050
I get to do what I love on a daily basis.
772
00:39:54.530 --> 00:39:58.329
And for that, I will forever be grateful. Thank you so,
773
00:39:58.730 --> 00:39:59.889
so much. Talk to you soon. Can't wait.