210: Noah Kagan - How To Start A Business

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And when I was at Facebook to the original point,
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Mark was very, he's very smart. He's very, he's not
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a normal person. And it's not really a surprise that
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they've created that if you get a chance to hang
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out with them. But the thing that he did very
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well was that he had a very singular focus when
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we were there, which was growth. And it was at
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all expense. It was like nothing else mattered if it
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didn't help us grow. And so with Sumo.com, which is our,
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you know, marketing software to grow your email list or AppSumo,
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which is our group on for geeks, we've always done
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well where we've had yearly singular goals.
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Hey, everyone.
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Thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate
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it here on the Learning Leader Show. This episode, however,
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is different than normal. When I reached out originally to
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ask Noah Kagan to be my guest, I knew he'd
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bring something unique, different to my show. And I wanted that.
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I think it's good to try new things, to have
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different styles. And what you'll hear is Noah, a guy
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who was the number 30 Employee at Facebook.
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Number four, employee at Mint.
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Now the chief sumo at sumo.com is just an unbelievably
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interesting guy who is willing to challenge you and push
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you and make things uncomfortable. Also uses a lot of
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language that some people might not like if that is
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not your thing. I would skip this episode. I'd delete
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it and just move on. However, if you're okay with that,
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then I would forge on. And so we got into
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so many topics. It became like a mentoring, coaching session
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for me. And Noah did a good job of helping
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me understand some of the mistakes that I'm making. It
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also gave a great encouragement, and I think we developed
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a cool friendship. This was scheduled for a 30-minute talk
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on Noah's calendar. He had to push back two different
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meetings because we want an hour and 17 minutes because
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there's just so much that I think we both found
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interesting about it. So I appreciate you being here. You're
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going to hear a lot about interviewing, a lot about
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critical feedback, mistakes, uncomfortable moments, why you should.
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Go on more walks.
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What it's like, as Noah called, working for Intel, Facebook,
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Mint in the early days, and now running his own company.
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So there's so much here. I'm proud of this one,
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even though I know I'm a little bit concerned and
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nervous about it. But I think Noah is a unique
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dude who I'm happy to call a friend. We're already
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texting each other saying how fun this one was. So
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ladies and gentlemen, thanks again for being here. If you
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decide to forge on, it's Noah Kagan.
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Uh pita or tortilla actually it's a tortilla it looks
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like fucking diarrhea yeah that's not what you want to eat.
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It's a good way to start man no i was
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i was parched and hungry that's all good yeah well
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i'm not apologizing for it it's okay to be hungry
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yeah no i i mean i appreciate you uh being
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here i i have to tell you you're the first
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uh guest out of uh 200 and some that i've
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ever given any money to I think I, uh, when
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I saw your, is it on your about page? I
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don't know what it is where you said, uh, you know,
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there's a better chance of me responding if you send
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me a gift card to taco deli. And I'm like,
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anyone who's just puts that out there, like no, there's a,
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it's a no brainer. I'm sending, uh, I'm sending the
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cash and, uh, seeing if you'll do it. And you're like, boom,
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you responded right away.
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It was awesome.
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The, um, I would have responded if you didn't send
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it to bio.
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Oh, I know.
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No, the, uh, are you recording by the way or not?
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It is, but I mean, I can cut it, whatever. No, no, no.
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I love when people record because the banter and the
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things we talk about right now are actually going to
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be more interesting when it's the formal thing.
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I agree.
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But what's really.
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Interesting about what you're saying is that someone commented on Reddit.
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They're like, man, Noah's a, I was doing a Reddit
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AMA yesterday and they said.
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Oh, Noah's a dick. And Noah, that's like, dude, I'm like,
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I'm happy.
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I'm sad.
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I'm like just human. That's like anybody else.
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But what I realized, though, is that if you're trying
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to get responses from people, it's how can you make
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it exciting for them to respond? And so and then
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you have to be considerate of what you're asking. So
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it's two important things. And I'll share a story with it.
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But people email me and they're like, hey, man, I
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got this business.
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Here's a very complex problem. How would you solve it?
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I was like, I don't know you.
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Who are you?
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Like you don't give to people on the streets generally.
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So why is it with an email we expect a lot?
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But on the contrary, you send a $ 20 gift card.
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Like I'll go out of my way to respond or
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there's a guy I wanted to meet, this guy that
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does YouTube videos, Tim Schmoyer.
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He's very popular on YouTube. So he's like, it's $ 400
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an hour to talk to him. Sure. Okay.
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Because $ 400 for that knowledge or whatever he's going to
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teach me for the rest of my life. I was like,
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that's cheap if you divide it by like two years.
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Yeah. Yeah. No, I agree. I just, I like the
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originality of it. And I thought, why not?
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And normally I would send some type of a thank
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you afterwards, but I'm like, why not try both this time?
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Especially when he's asking. And I just, I'm, you know,
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I'm a big fan of your podcast. I listened to
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all of them.
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I don't, I there's, I'm really picky about podcasts too.
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Like just be, especially the newer ones. And I like
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the way that you keep it real and you don't
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seem to, you just, you just say what's on your mind,
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but there's also some thoughtful questions involved and, I love
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studying interviewing. It's something I was going to add in
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my notes to talk to you about today is just
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your thought process around interviewing because it's something I get
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asked about a lot in both a corporate job because
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you're hiring people, right, for Sumo and your business is
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you're hiring people. You've been hired by big companies or
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actually you were hired when they were small companies now
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that have become big companies, hired.
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And fired, I guess.
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And so that's why like your interview process really fascinates
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me because it's original. It's fun. It's loose. Even like
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your one with Ferris. Ferris, Tim's obviously well-known, but yours
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is different than probably anyone I'd ever heard because you
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don't bow down to the guy. You just say what's
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on your mind, and I thought it was one of
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the more enjoyable ones I'd heard him do.
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Yeah, because a lot of them... One, thank you. And
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I actually want to know, I'd like to hear more
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of your backstory.
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For me with the interviews, it's just like, one, can
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I read this shit online already? People ask these questions,
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I'm like, bitch, did you just check out the site Google? Google,
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and you'll find these answers, and then... Similar to you,
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I listen to a lot of podcasts and YouTube and
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I think the two major things is that like most
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people aren't really putting in enough effort.
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They're like, hey, tell me your story. I'm like, dude,
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like some guy last week I was doing an interview.
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Tell me your story.
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And I was like, you know, the story has been
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told so many times and it's better. Better use of
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my time is not telling my story. It's going and
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creating things. So then I have stuff to.
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Talk about in the future.
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And the second thing, two other things that have been
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helpful is I've been trying to like I've been editing
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my own podcast for the past month and a half,
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two months.
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And it made me really realize where I'm sucking or
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where it's interesting. Yep.
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And as you're saying as well, Ryan, like going and
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studying people who do good interviews, there's already good people
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out there. Go study their shit. So I paid an
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NPR producer. Well, I can't say his name, but I
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paid an NPR producer because they produced the best material
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and he just taught me how they did it.
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Really? What did he say? Like what are like what's
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what a few things they said?
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Can't talk about it, dude.
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No.
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I'm curious now.
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Yeah.
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No, it was really fascinating. He changed everything for me.
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So– because I think one thing I'm trying to get
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better at personally is like if I'm trying to get
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better at mountain biking or chess or podcast or YouTube,
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just go fucking pay these people– thousand dollars, whatever it is.
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And forever you get knowledge and you get that improvement.
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Yeah.
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So with him, he.
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Listened to one of my episodes, he listened to my
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episodes and then I gave him an outline of one
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of my upcoming episodes. So I'd say the major takeaway
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from him was just most shows, YouTube, podcasts, blog posts,
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whatever you're creating have too much.
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So that was the number one thing. And that really
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stuck with me.
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What do you mean too much?
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There's he's like what we do with we spend probably
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two hours interviewing someone and then we'll put in 10
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seconds of what they said.
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Yeah.
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And I think that was a really interesting insight where
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it's most people are just putting out their whole their
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whole shit. They just take a poop in a toilet
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and they're like, enjoy all of it.
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And you know what?
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Actually, somewhere in there, there's a pretty good nugget of poop.
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You know, I mean, do you edit yours or do
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you release the whole thing?
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No.
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So, well, I've evolved with that.
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And I think that's kind of how business should be,
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where you do something and you keep involving and improving.
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And so I originally, I just put out the whole thing.
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I'd record it once.
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So I had a recorder and it would just be
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me and Brian hanging out and it'd be a recorder.
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Yeah.
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And it sounds like shit. I had, I didn't plan
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any questions. I'm like, it'll just be off the cuff.
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And once I did it, I just put it out and, uh,
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I think that's where I've done relatively well in business
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because I pay attention to what's working and listen to
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certain people's feedback. And the feedback I got was the
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audio sounded like shit. And this NPR guy said, you know,
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you have this episode that's an hour and a half,
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but really 15 minutes of it was the most interesting.
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So that was number one. And I've been a lot
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more aggressive. I use a service called Trent, T-R-I-N-T.com, which
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is a fucking amazing editor for transcripts. And it's pretty
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low cost compared to other ones. So I started editing
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everything I was saying and I saw how I was
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phrasing things. I saw where I went on bad tangents
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and good tangents. But it really helped me cut out
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a lot of the stuff that people now are listening
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to episodes like, dude, these are really good.
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I'm like, you know why? Because you didn't hear all
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the shit parts. And so that's number one.
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Number two, it's helped me become a better interviewer because
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I'm editing my own transcripts. And number three, the thing
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that he really said was, how are you creating more
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of a narrative with signposts? So we start this episode
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and it talks about how an NPR producer.
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Changed my life. And then I'm like, well, what happened?
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Well, in today's show with Ryan Hawk, you're going to
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learn today about what exactly happened in that. And then
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you have the story. So like hook them beginning middle
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and close them. Uh, and so he said, when you're
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doing that, you also got to give people signposts. So
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we did this thing, but what happens next was crazy.
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And so you kind of kind of keep hooking them
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along because with podcasts, you know, this, the data is
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very weak, so you don't know what they're listening to
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or who's listening or how much.
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Yeah.
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So, you know, his overall thing is have less shit,
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have more of a framework, and then you got to
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put these signposts there to have an actual narrative.
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I've noticed you've broken some recent ones down in parts.
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And you even will say it at times. I think
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you flew a guest or one of your listeners in
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who won a contest.
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And you said, all right, part three.
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And then you kind of like broke it down.
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And in a way, it made it interesting.
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I'm like, I never really thought of that where you
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almost had segments where Within a podcast, because part of
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the reason people like podcasts is because it's long form,
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I think.
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We like the long form because.
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We're used to radio and used to two-minute soundbites, whereas
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for us, you could talk for an hour or more
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and still cut out some of the parts that need
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to be cut. But long form can be interesting because
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you can go deep on a few specific topics that
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normally you can't do if you only have a five-minute soundbite.
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I think that's something– I don't know how you do it.
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I don't know shit about you, so I won't let
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you off the hook.
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I talked to Jordash yesterday, one of your guys.
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I don't know if he told you, and he's like–
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I did. He's like, get ready.
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It's not going to be like any other ones you
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do where they just sit there and answer the questions.
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I'm like, I already know that Noah– I was nervous
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for this one, honestly, dude, because I knew you're not
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just going to sit back and answer the questions.
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You're going to challenge me.
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Or you're going to be like, that's a stupid question
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or something along those lines.
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But in a nice, playful way.
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Yeah, I'm not trying to be mean. I think you're honest, though.
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And that's why people like you and follow your stuff.
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Some of the stuff.
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Hold on.
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What was the– I'm not sure where we're going.
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But, man.
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Anyways, I was thinking about some of the long form
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they're referring to. And I think what I've realized by
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it is that most of it's pretty boring.
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Oh, this is what I was saying.
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So originally when I started doing episodes, I would come
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with like 15 questions. And what I've realized, and I
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think to your point, which I agree with, is that
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now I only come with three. And I really think
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about what are the three that matter, and then it
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helps me stay on track. Because if you start asking questions,
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people will go wherever the fuck you take them.
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Yeah.
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And so I'm like, well, what are the three, if
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I could find out three things that I think would
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be really interesting for myself, what are the three I
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can talk about? And then from there you can go
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wherever rabbit holes you want, but it kind of helped
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me simplify what's really most important.
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My process is I lay out, I have, I have
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notes that are laid out based on interesting things I've
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learned about you over the last, I don't know, month
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of listening to podcasts, reading some of the stuff you've
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put out online. And then I just have an Evernote
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that says Noah Kagan. And every time I hear something
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or I read something, I just update the Evernote. And
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then before you know it, here are a bunch of notes.
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But I know obviously... You got to organize it, as
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you said, and not just say, oh, what about the
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Michael Jackson theory? Or no, what about buying a Jaguar
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is a mistake? Or, you know, like if you just
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start bouncing around, some of it can be fun. But
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I do think it's important to try to have some
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sort of structure and process of seeing where do we
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want to go.
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Yeah, I think with just any type of medium and
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what I've been learning and maturing about is that people
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don't want a lot.
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Like when you go to dinner, you have a dish.
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You have a piece of chicken.
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Yeah.
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And so sometimes when you have a buffet, it's nice
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because you can try things, but generally people find a
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dish they really want. And the same thing goes, I
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don't know if that's kind of a shitty analogy.
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But the same thing, what I've noticed with content is
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that if I try to tell 15 different tactics of
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marketing or five different things you could do on sales
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or something that works with growing a business, people will
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take one thing. Think about it.
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Like next time you have a conversation with someone, wait
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an hour after it's over and think about what you
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really took away. You'll be like, well, actually just that's
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one thing. And so I'm not great at this, but
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what I'm trying to get great at is How can
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I just focus on that one thing? So that really
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when I'm talking to someone, what's essential? What's the one
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thing that they're going to take away? I'm going to
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take away. And then the audience can be like, oh, fuck.
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Yeah, we get it.
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You shut the fuck up about it. Like, that's the
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point where I'm like, OK, good, because I found the
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most interesting thing. And then I just like stay on that.
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And it's hard. That's a challenging thing to stay on
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track with that.
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Speaking of yesterday, so I had like an hour and
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a half long Skype call with one of your sales guys, Jordash,
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about Sumo.com. And going into it, I was fully planning
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on buying, paying the year and having it updated for
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my site, learningleader.com, because I have not focused, I've not
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done a good job on email capturing.
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Some of the copy is really bad. And you had,
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I think, was it Neville? Is that his name? Yeah, Neville. Neville,
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I'm sorry.
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And I was listening to that and I felt like,
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oh God, there's so much I could do. And you
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become your own worst critic when you look at it.
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And so Jordash and I had good conversations as far
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as what needs to be done, how to better capture emails.
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I know you've talked a lot about this from using
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the tools, the copy, everything that's included in that.
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And so it was good to have a conversation.
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And I was curious, what do you look for when
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you're looking to hire people for Sumo, especially when they're
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going to be front-facing, where we're doing video Skype calls
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with potential customers? And I assume I just got emailed
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because I signed up for the free stuff. And then
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he said, hey, let's talk about some of the paid stuff, basically.
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And that was what yesterday turned out to be.
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How would you rate the call? And then how would
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you have improved it? This is where I'm starting to
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turn things around.
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I thought he's a very personable guy and was really
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helpful because I told him, I said, look, there are
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areas that I have strengths and then there are areas
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where I have weaknesses.
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I think I have an understanding of that.
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And the email capture is not very good, although it's
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gotten kind of better recently just from, I think, having
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consistent process of sending out like a regular newsletter. People
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seem to like it, they share it, they forward it
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to their friends, and then they want to sign up too.
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So Jordash was good though.
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He explained the process of what they could do of
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like a landing mat or a welcome mat, I think,
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and just some things we could add to my website
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to help capture that better because it's needed. And especially
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if you're looking in the future of potentially writing a book,
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an online course, whatever else could could happen in the future,
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you got to do a better job of capturing that.
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And so that was that was the primary basis of
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the call.
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00:16:14.570 --> 00:16:14.950
He was good.
399
00:16:15.990 --> 00:16:20.470
And how could he be improved? Because you didn't buy
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00:16:20.509 --> 00:16:22.269
on the call, I think, right? You asked for a discount,
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00:16:22.370 --> 00:16:24.110
which I liked. I was like, ooh, that's good.
402
00:16:24.129 --> 00:16:26.409
Oh, did he tell you all the details or what happened?
403
00:16:26.470 --> 00:16:27.049
What did he say?
404
00:16:27.950 --> 00:16:29.470
So what I heard was that you asked for a
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00:16:29.490 --> 00:16:32.179
discount and then you also asked for someone to help
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you manage it or he offered for someone to help
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00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.399
manage it for you. And then I got asked, hey,
408
00:16:37.659 --> 00:16:38.779
is this like one of your best friends?
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Should we hook him up or not?
410
00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:41.200
And did you say yes?
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Yes.
412
00:16:43.379 --> 00:16:45.320
Maybe you could say yes tomorrow or today, later.
413
00:16:46.659 --> 00:16:50.440
Well, my suggestion for them was to figure out what
414
00:16:50.480 --> 00:16:52.159
kind of value is being generated through this.
415
00:16:52.470 --> 00:16:52.659
Yep.
416
00:16:53.149 --> 00:16:55.370
Before we just go and start discounting everything. Some of
417
00:16:55.389 --> 00:16:57.149
the best products in the world, like there's no discount
418
00:16:57.190 --> 00:16:57.850
on an iPhone.
419
00:16:58.129 --> 00:16:58.289
Yep.
420
00:16:58.350 --> 00:17:00.730
There's no discount on a lot of the things that
421
00:17:00.769 --> 00:17:02.950
you want to buy. It's just like, hey, this is
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00:17:02.970 --> 00:17:03.769
the best price.
423
00:17:03.840 --> 00:17:05.559
Why? Because there's a lot of value in what you're buying.
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00:17:05.799 --> 00:17:09.079
So I asked to have somebody help me. implement and
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00:17:09.140 --> 00:17:12.019
execute so I could focus on other things. And, and
426
00:17:12.059 --> 00:17:14.960
that's one of the things I do with, uh, certain
427
00:17:15.009 --> 00:17:17.670
things that, that I have, I don't have, at least
428
00:17:17.690 --> 00:17:20.230
I don't want to devote time to doing, uh, the
429
00:17:20.309 --> 00:17:22.269
execution part. Like if I just give, can I pay
430
00:17:22.289 --> 00:17:24.470
a certain amount every month to have you just do
431
00:17:24.529 --> 00:17:25.049
it for me?
432
00:17:25.150 --> 00:17:27.339
That's what I said. And he let, he threw out
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a price to do that.
434
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And I was like, well, like, I don't think I
435
00:17:30.400 --> 00:17:32.259
want to pay it only because the bulk of my
436
00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:35.440
like fans or listeners, they listen on their phone on
437
00:17:35.539 --> 00:17:39.339
iTunes or Stitcher. or whatever Apple podcasts are called now,
438
00:17:39.759 --> 00:17:42.400
not necessarily going to my website to listen. And the
439
00:17:42.460 --> 00:17:46.000
bulk of my content is the podcast. Different than obviously
440
00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:49.180
your situation. So that's why I was like, whoa, man,
441
00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:51.420
like that seems to be probably a little bit too steep.
442
00:17:51.460 --> 00:17:52.859
And then he said, well, what would you be willing
443
00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:53.279
to pay?
444
00:17:53.299 --> 00:17:55.539
Oh, he's getting better.
445
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:58.579
That was kind of an awkward question. And I didn't
446
00:17:58.619 --> 00:18:00.299
know what to say. I said, I don't know. I mean,
447
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:03.430
much less than what you're telling me. So that was
448
00:18:03.470 --> 00:18:04.890
kind of how I went back and forth. But then
449
00:18:05.009 --> 00:18:08.359
to his credit, because salespeople sometimes they struggle in the follow-up.
450
00:18:08.660 --> 00:18:10.539
He followed up like an hour and a half later
451
00:18:10.579 --> 00:18:13.660
and all the email said was, Ryan, call me.
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Here's my number. And I was like, huh, I wonder
453
00:18:16.240 --> 00:18:18.119
if he wouldn't talk to Noah or wonder what happened.
454
00:18:18.160 --> 00:18:20.990
And so I did. I was meeting up with friends
455
00:18:21.009 --> 00:18:23.450
for dinner. And on the way there, I was like, hey, Jordache,
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I saw your email.
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Let's talk. And so that's where we talked a little
458
00:18:26.390 --> 00:18:28.289
bit more. And we have a plan in place.
459
00:18:29.390 --> 00:18:31.589
And where did you guys end up on the pricing?
460
00:18:31.690 --> 00:18:33.710
I'm like waiting for the finale.
461
00:18:33.769 --> 00:18:36.990
We're just going to have like an initial consulting call
462
00:18:37.029 --> 00:18:38.589
slash execution following it.
463
00:18:38.589 --> 00:18:40.799
So I'm going to pay like by the hour initially.
464
00:18:41.950 --> 00:18:46.539
I didn't know we did that.
465
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:50.200
It sounds like you empower your people to lead and
466
00:18:50.339 --> 00:18:54.000
to make decisions. And that's a good thing. I mean,
467
00:18:54.240 --> 00:18:55.400
I think that's what good leaders do.
468
00:18:56.369 --> 00:18:58.829
Well, a few things on that. One, I never like
469
00:18:58.849 --> 00:18:59.690
the word employees.
470
00:18:59.750 --> 00:19:01.609
I kind of always encourage people to– because if you
471
00:19:01.630 --> 00:19:02.769
hire employees, they're not really.
472
00:19:02.630 --> 00:19:06.329
People who think. Employees are people who do. And then
473
00:19:06.410 --> 00:19:09.269
they're not my people. I help start the company and
474
00:19:09.289 --> 00:19:12.289
I help lead the company, but they're their own people.
475
00:19:12.309 --> 00:19:13.150
I don't really own them.
476
00:19:13.869 --> 00:19:15.890
And I think what I've realized– I've had a pretty
477
00:19:15.930 --> 00:19:17.809
big breakthrough two days ago about leadership, and I know
478
00:19:17.829 --> 00:19:21.160
that's what your show is about, which was– Give people
479
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.289
very clear guidance of where the goal is. Like, hey,
480
00:19:24.309 --> 00:19:26.049
here's where I want you to go or here's what.
481
00:19:25.970 --> 00:19:26.609
I want you to do.
482
00:19:27.569 --> 00:19:29.690
And then give them autonomy, which I hate when people
483
00:19:29.730 --> 00:19:31.289
say autonomy because it's one of these things.
484
00:19:31.210 --> 00:19:33.190
We all hear. We're like, okay, autonomy, I get it.
485
00:19:33.630 --> 00:19:35.990
But what autonomy really means is that you need to
486
00:19:36.029 --> 00:19:38.769
be a coach to them and help them accomplish the goal.
487
00:19:38.869 --> 00:19:40.390
But for the most part, leave them the fuck alone.
488
00:19:40.410 --> 00:19:44.150
So how do you hold your people accountable? I'm sorry,
489
00:19:44.190 --> 00:19:46.809
I said it again. So the team members, people that
490
00:19:46.950 --> 00:19:48.369
are a part of Sumo.
491
00:19:48.390 --> 00:19:49.750
It's just more how to hold the.
492
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:52.660
people that work there, the teammates or the different people
493
00:19:52.680 --> 00:19:55.380
that work there. Well, accountability is very simple. It's like, well,
494
00:19:55.440 --> 00:19:58.849
what's the expectation? That's, I think, actually one of the
495
00:19:58.869 --> 00:20:01.130
most important things in running a business is what's the
496
00:20:01.150 --> 00:20:03.670
expectation you have with your customer? What's the expectation you
497
00:20:03.710 --> 00:20:06.069
have with the people you work with? And I do
498
00:20:06.150 --> 00:20:07.529
have this belief, and I'm not sure if it's going
499
00:20:07.549 --> 00:20:10.170
to be unpopular, but and I, and I still think
500
00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:12.049
I actually 95%.
501
00:20:11.309 --> 00:20:12.029
Really believe this.
502
00:20:12.049 --> 00:20:13.069
And this is how it's been for a long time
503
00:20:13.670 --> 00:20:15.539
in terms of sumo life, which is the way we
504
00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:18.359
look at our company. The number one priority is the people.
505
00:20:19.279 --> 00:20:20.839
A lot of people are like, it's the customer. It's
506
00:20:20.859 --> 00:20:22.980
the customer. I'm like, well, if our people are fucking
507
00:20:23.019 --> 00:20:25.400
pissed off or unhappy, I don't think they're really going
508
00:20:25.420 --> 00:20:28.279
to like any of their customers. I don't think they're
509
00:20:28.299 --> 00:20:30.160
going to build great things or sell great things or
510
00:20:30.180 --> 00:20:30.940
support great things.
511
00:20:31.180 --> 00:20:33.900
Whenever I see a company that talks about the number
512
00:20:34.119 --> 00:20:37.880
one Thought is the customer. I'm very concerned because the
513
00:20:37.900 --> 00:20:40.500
number one thought should always be the people who work
514
00:20:40.720 --> 00:20:42.740
at the company And if you treat them right they
515
00:20:42.769 --> 00:20:46.740
will treat your like Jordache was obviously excited to work
516
00:20:47.619 --> 00:20:51.390
at Sumo He's excited to work at your company I
517
00:20:51.430 --> 00:20:53.190
mean he said that to me and I could and
518
00:20:53.210 --> 00:20:54.910
I could sense it in the way that he talked
519
00:20:54.930 --> 00:20:57.609
to me and that is That's an inspiring thing for
520
00:20:57.670 --> 00:21:00.690
a customer now. I will tell you I've become a
521
00:21:00.849 --> 00:21:03.349
fan of of the work you put out. So I was,
522
00:21:03.509 --> 00:21:05.730
and I see the results that it could provide for
523
00:21:05.769 --> 00:21:08.579
me and my, what I'm trying to build. Um, and
524
00:21:08.619 --> 00:21:12.259
so I was probably going to buy anyway, but, um, I,
525
00:21:12.880 --> 00:21:15.619
I liked it. It just solidified it, having that Skype
526
00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:17.819
call and the fact that he was obviously empowered to
527
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:18.279
do work.
528
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:22.119
And that starts with the leader. Yeah.
529
00:21:22.779 --> 00:21:23.099
Yeah.
530
00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.980
Um, but what if there are people like, I'm sorry,
531
00:21:27.259 --> 00:21:33.640
what if, what if someone is obviously they're not pulling
532
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:35.579
their weight. They're not doing a good job. I mean,
533
00:21:35.619 --> 00:21:38.220
what's your process to fire somebody or let somebody go?
534
00:21:38.319 --> 00:21:40.619
Or how do you, like I said, holding them accountable
535
00:21:40.680 --> 00:21:44.059
to saying, because not every hire is going to be perfect.
536
00:21:44.099 --> 00:21:46.750
Not everyone's going to do a good job. At times,
537
00:21:46.769 --> 00:21:48.410
you're going to have to let people go. How do
538
00:21:48.430 --> 00:21:48.869
you do that?
539
00:21:50.950 --> 00:21:53.930
Yeah, I would say historically we've sucked at it. I mean,
540
00:21:53.950 --> 00:21:56.670
I've been running this company seven years, and I've started
541
00:21:56.690 --> 00:21:59.369
companies before. Right now we're around 40 to 50 people.
542
00:22:00.029 --> 00:22:02.309
And I was actually thinking of a funny joke. I
543
00:22:02.349 --> 00:22:04.950
got fired at Facebook, and then they've gotten big. I
544
00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:06.980
quit Mint, and then they got sold for $ 300 million.
545
00:22:07.660 --> 00:22:10.460
And more or less right now, I'm actually not that
546
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:12.980
involved day-to-day on Sumo. And not because I don't want to,
547
00:22:13.059 --> 00:22:15.710
but Chad, my business partner, is better at running it.
548
00:22:16.740 --> 00:22:17.759
And so I think they're going to get big now
549
00:22:17.779 --> 00:22:18.700
because they kicked me out.
550
00:22:19.759 --> 00:22:20.549
So what do you do then?
551
00:22:22.059 --> 00:22:25.880
I'm so what I realize my job is, is that
552
00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:27.420
so we have two product lines and I can talk
553
00:22:27.460 --> 00:22:30.180
about firing and hiring and how that's worked for us.
554
00:22:31.799 --> 00:22:35.079
But what I'm what I'm great at is starting. And
555
00:22:35.099 --> 00:22:37.339
I think what this is something that I've really fully
556
00:22:37.559 --> 00:22:40.240
come to appreciate and understand and and.
557
00:22:40.200 --> 00:22:40.980
Not feel guilty.
558
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:42.819
We have a and especially if you're Jewish, you have
559
00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.880
a lot of Jewish guilt. Uh, but you feel guilty
560
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.009
for what you're not great at and you're like, well,
561
00:22:48.029 --> 00:22:50.009
I should be able to do this. And that's, but
562
00:22:50.029 --> 00:22:52.230
at the same time, why don't you double down on
563
00:22:52.269 --> 00:22:52.769
what's working?
564
00:22:52.890 --> 00:22:55.210
So for Sumo and AppSumo, let's start with that.
565
00:22:55.269 --> 00:22:57.430
We started this, I started this business by myself cause
566
00:22:57.470 --> 00:22:58.470
I didn't want any partners.
567
00:22:59.109 --> 00:22:59.829
Then eventually my.
568
00:22:59.769 --> 00:23:02.250
Business partner was a contractor and then he became a
569
00:23:02.289 --> 00:23:03.809
partner and then now he's one of my best friends
570
00:23:03.829 --> 00:23:05.170
and one of the most essential people in my life.
571
00:23:06.210 --> 00:23:07.630
And we grew it to a good amount of money.
572
00:23:07.670 --> 00:23:09.329
I think we're making 5 million bucks a year and
573
00:23:09.349 --> 00:23:11.710
I just couldn't grow anymore. And then I went on
574
00:23:11.750 --> 00:23:15.640
this India quest. And I walked around India for a month.
575
00:23:15.700 --> 00:23:18.019
I grew a very big beard. I got food poisoning,
576
00:23:18.039 --> 00:23:22.079
a lot of diarrhea. And they ran the company without me,
577
00:23:22.140 --> 00:23:23.539
and it was the best month they ever had.
578
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:27.069
Wow. What was that? What's that?
579
00:23:27.089 --> 00:23:29.289
That was February 2014 or 13.
580
00:23:29.269 --> 00:23:29.769
Okay.
581
00:23:31.869 --> 00:23:33.650
And then from there, what was interesting is that we
582
00:23:33.750 --> 00:23:35.930
ended up having Anton run the company, and now Eamon's
583
00:23:35.970 --> 00:23:38.589
been running AppSumo, which is our group on For Geeks,
584
00:23:38.970 --> 00:23:40.609
and he has doubled the business.
585
00:23:41.430 --> 00:23:41.650
Wow.
586
00:23:42.009 --> 00:23:43.410
And it wasn't overnight.
587
00:23:43.569 --> 00:23:45.329
You know, it's funny in retrospect, we always think things
588
00:23:45.390 --> 00:23:48.049
are easier. That's, that's why I love what my mom said.
589
00:23:48.130 --> 00:23:49.450
She says, you always got to push hard in the
590
00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:51.549
last lap. So if you push hard in the last lap,
591
00:23:51.569 --> 00:23:54.430
you never really remember how hard the race was. And
592
00:23:54.470 --> 00:23:56.630
so Eamon, when he started, it wasn't amazing, but now,
593
00:23:56.650 --> 00:23:58.930
you know, we worked hard and it now in retrospect,
594
00:23:58.950 --> 00:24:00.539
it didn't seem that bad, but this guy has doubled
595
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:03.180
the business. And for the most part, this is something
596
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.759
I realized about two months ago. I was having a
597
00:24:05.859 --> 00:24:08.599
brunch with someone and they said, well, how's AppSumo doing
598
00:24:08.640 --> 00:24:10.410
so well? And I was like, you know, what's the
599
00:24:10.450 --> 00:24:12.230
formula for AppSumo? I was like, well, Eamon has a
600
00:24:12.269 --> 00:24:14.660
goal and I leave him the fuck alone. And then
601
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:16.940
I ask him questions once a month when we meet.
602
00:24:17.720 --> 00:24:19.579
And if he ever needs anything, I'm 100 percent there
603
00:24:19.619 --> 00:24:21.569
any of the time. I'm not one of these like, yeah,
604
00:24:21.619 --> 00:24:22.609
I fucking never work.
605
00:24:22.630 --> 00:24:24.250
And I've got all these people that are just slaves
606
00:24:24.289 --> 00:24:26.549
and they just sit in some fucking jail cell working.
607
00:24:26.589 --> 00:24:28.349
I think that's horrible. I want everyone to have a
608
00:24:28.369 --> 00:24:32.190
good life. So I'm empowering them, not empowering them, but
609
00:24:32.210 --> 00:24:33.630
like I want them to be around me. And if
610
00:24:33.690 --> 00:24:36.170
it's I want their lives to be better. And the
611
00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:38.839
realization with Eamon was that he has a goal. He
612
00:24:38.940 --> 00:24:40.500
does what the fuck he wants. And then I'm there
613
00:24:40.519 --> 00:24:43.779
to support it whatever way possible. And then that's what's
614
00:24:43.819 --> 00:24:45.539
kind of left with Sumo, where I started it. In
615
00:24:45.559 --> 00:24:47.779
the first three years, we've grown it to a seven-figure
616
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:49.109
recurring revenue business.
617
00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:53.069
People seem to like most of it. And we've had struggles, man.
618
00:24:53.549 --> 00:24:56.390
Most of running a company sucks. Yeah.
619
00:24:57.470 --> 00:24:59.009
I talked to my business partner. I'm like, you know,
620
00:24:59.029 --> 00:25:01.730
I've gotten it to the point where I think it's stable.
621
00:25:01.809 --> 00:25:03.170
Why don't you take it to the next level? You
622
00:25:03.190 --> 00:25:05.230
have a bigger vision for it than I do. And
623
00:25:05.259 --> 00:25:07.640
then I'll support it with putting out content or creating,
624
00:25:08.099 --> 00:25:09.319
you know, complimentary products that.
625
00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:11.339
Will help put fuel on the fire, which is what
626
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:12.000
my strength is.
627
00:25:12.079 --> 00:25:14.920
So I'd say overall for almost all leaders out there,
628
00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:16.819
it's really taking that time. And I don't know if
629
00:25:16.859 --> 00:25:18.839
it's the Strength Finders book. I haven't really read that.
630
00:25:18.859 --> 00:25:21.059
I don't think I've read it. But it's taking the
631
00:25:21.099 --> 00:25:22.579
time to be like, well, what am I great at?
632
00:25:22.720 --> 00:25:25.000
Let me spend all of my time doing that and
633
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:27.180
find people that actually love doing all those other things.
634
00:25:27.980 --> 00:25:28.460
And it's great.
635
00:25:28.500 --> 00:25:30.289
That's how you really grow a business. You don't because
636
00:25:30.309 --> 00:25:32.470
there's no way that I could do support because I
637
00:25:32.529 --> 00:25:34.369
hate people whining to me all day. Like I could
638
00:25:34.390 --> 00:25:35.869
do like a half hour and then I just started
639
00:25:35.890 --> 00:25:37.089
being like, all right, just don't buy from us.
640
00:25:38.690 --> 00:25:40.710
And so I could do in the beginning of the company.
641
00:25:40.730 --> 00:25:42.069
But as we grow and that's like all day.
642
00:25:42.549 --> 00:25:44.410
But Jamie and the people on her team love doing
643
00:25:44.430 --> 00:25:47.569
that or Samantha with recruiting or Troy with webinars or
644
00:25:47.609 --> 00:25:50.430
the developers. or some of the marketing people, they're better
645
00:25:50.470 --> 00:25:52.730
at me than that. So why not enable them to
646
00:25:53.009 --> 00:25:54.759
do the things they enjoy all day, and then I'll
647
00:25:54.799 --> 00:25:56.220
just go do all the things I enjoy all day.
648
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:57.640
Do you have a typical day?
649
00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:04.359
It's interesting you say that. Every Sunday I plan my week.
650
00:26:04.759 --> 00:26:07.500
So the way that we've structured our company, and I'll
651
00:26:07.539 --> 00:26:09.460
just tell you, I learned this from Mark at Facebook,
652
00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:10.619
is that we have a singular goal.
653
00:26:11.049 --> 00:26:11.769
Mark Zuckerberg.
654
00:26:12.369 --> 00:26:13.089
Mark Zuckerberg, yeah.
655
00:26:13.990 --> 00:26:18.710
So for the people that don't know you yet, Yeah.
656
00:26:19.190 --> 00:26:22.279
What's your– what was and what– how did you and
657
00:26:22.299 --> 00:26:27.130
Mark Zuckerberg become– Colleagues, friends, you know, coworkers.
658
00:26:27.410 --> 00:26:30.170
Jewish brothers. We're not friends.
659
00:26:31.309 --> 00:26:33.210
I was a cubicle monkey at Intel and I was
660
00:26:33.259 --> 00:26:33.730
going to quit.
661
00:26:34.039 --> 00:26:35.480
My dream was always to start my own business.
662
00:26:35.880 --> 00:26:40.299
My father came to America and sold rugs and carpets
663
00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:43.359
and eventually started his own copier business. I think you
664
00:26:43.420 --> 00:26:45.599
kids these days don't know what copiers or fax machines are.
665
00:26:46.259 --> 00:26:51.720
But there were these like really cool, you know, antique contraptions. And, uh,
666
00:26:52.400 --> 00:26:53.589
my goal was always to kind of start my own company.
667
00:26:53.609 --> 00:26:55.180
I don't know if my dad influenced me. I've always
668
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:55.630
been doing it.
669
00:26:56.630 --> 00:26:58.569
It's always funny. You know how everyone always says, Oh yeah,
670
00:26:59.049 --> 00:26:59.910
I sold pencils.
671
00:26:59.970 --> 00:27:02.950
I'm like, should we just give kids pencils in elementary
672
00:27:02.970 --> 00:27:04.569
school and then see who really wants to sell them?
673
00:27:04.890 --> 00:27:06.509
And it's like, all right, you're starting the businesses. The
674
00:27:06.529 --> 00:27:08.609
ones who want to just like buy them and people,
675
00:27:08.650 --> 00:27:09.809
all right, you're going to be employees.
676
00:27:09.829 --> 00:27:10.470
Yeah.
677
00:27:10.789 --> 00:27:11.309
Yeah.
678
00:27:12.930 --> 00:27:14.250
And it's just, you know, it's not always the one
679
00:27:14.269 --> 00:27:16.589
who get good grades who are the most successful from
680
00:27:16.630 --> 00:27:17.579
external validation.
681
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.640
And anyways, longer story.
682
00:27:20.059 --> 00:27:23.220
So I was going to quit Intel and, you know,
683
00:27:23.259 --> 00:27:25.140
I didn't really want to work for anyone. But I
684
00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:27.240
think what most people do incorrectly is that they go
685
00:27:27.519 --> 00:27:29.579
get jobs. And I don't think you should get a job.
686
00:27:29.599 --> 00:27:32.509
You should get a career. And a career is just
687
00:27:32.529 --> 00:27:34.210
something that you really love doing and you want to
688
00:27:34.369 --> 00:27:37.589
improve on. It's like a skill or a craft. And
689
00:27:37.630 --> 00:27:39.890
so the career for me was never going to be
690
00:27:39.910 --> 00:27:42.119
at Intel. It was starting a business or being at companies,
691
00:27:42.880 --> 00:27:45.279
helping them with either their product or their marketing. And
692
00:27:45.339 --> 00:27:47.460
so Facebook, I literally sent in my resume. I didn't
693
00:27:47.480 --> 00:27:49.779
have any hookup. I didn't have any friends. But I
694
00:27:50.180 --> 00:27:53.680
was building college-based businesses for the past five years. Like
695
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:55.589
in college and even after I graduated, I kept running
696
00:27:55.619 --> 00:27:58.390
websites and products. So it was kind of a natural extension.
697
00:27:58.410 --> 00:28:00.849
And that's how I ended up there. And when I
698
00:28:00.869 --> 00:28:03.779
was at Facebook, to the original point, Mark was very–
699
00:28:03.950 --> 00:28:07.180
he's very smart. He's not a normal person. And it's
700
00:28:07.220 --> 00:28:10.200
not really a surprise that they've created that if you
701
00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:12.740
get a chance to hang out with them. But the
702
00:28:12.769 --> 00:28:14.430
thing that he did very well was that he had
703
00:28:14.450 --> 00:28:16.609
a very singular focus when we were there, which was growth.
704
00:28:16.809 --> 00:28:18.849
And it was at all expense. It was like nothing
705
00:28:18.869 --> 00:28:21.390
else mattered if it didn't help us grow. And so
706
00:28:21.430 --> 00:28:24.569
with Sumo.com, which is our marketing software to grow your
707
00:28:24.609 --> 00:28:26.589
email list, or AppSumo, which is our group on for geeks,
708
00:28:26.990 --> 00:28:29.430
we've always done well where we've had yearly singular goals.
709
00:28:30.859 --> 00:28:33.099
Coming back to your original question, you're like, full circle,
710
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:33.799
like Lion King.
711
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:35.119
Yeah.
712
00:28:35.880 --> 00:28:37.099
We have a yearly goal.
713
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:38.660
And what we've gotten over the years now is instead
714
00:28:38.680 --> 00:28:40.200
of just a yearly goal, which is too short term,
715
00:28:40.240 --> 00:28:42.839
we created a five year plan, which still has a
716
00:28:42.859 --> 00:28:45.460
yearly goal for this year, but it's a five year plan.
717
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:48.769
Otherwise every year you're kind of starting over and we've
718
00:28:48.789 --> 00:28:50.170
had struggle. We've had problems with that, which I can
719
00:28:50.190 --> 00:28:52.509
talk about later, but we have a yearly goal and
720
00:28:52.529 --> 00:28:56.029
then we have monthly goals. And then for me personally,
721
00:28:56.549 --> 00:28:58.609
each week I come up with what things am I
722
00:28:58.630 --> 00:29:01.940
doing for work, workout or personal? And I've done it
723
00:29:02.089 --> 00:29:06.210
every– and I have an accountability buddy, Adam, from mybodytutor.com.
724
00:29:07.109 --> 00:29:09.509
And I email, how did last week go? I do
725
00:29:09.549 --> 00:29:10.470
a review of last week.
726
00:29:10.609 --> 00:29:11.569
And then I send him what I'm going to do
727
00:29:11.589 --> 00:29:13.039
this week, and then I put it in my calendar,
728
00:29:13.099 --> 00:29:15.079
the things I'm going to do for work, workout, and personal.
729
00:29:16.099 --> 00:29:19.900
And what's interesting is that we have to recognize our personalities.
730
00:29:19.980 --> 00:29:21.759
And so– and I love Adam personally.
731
00:29:22.710 --> 00:29:25.599
And I'm not saying but I love Adam and his
732
00:29:25.650 --> 00:29:27.319
week is literally the same every week. I can tell
733
00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:30.599
you exact things he's doing right now. He's probably it's
734
00:29:30.619 --> 00:29:32.599
three o'clock. He's on a phone call in two hours.
735
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:33.900
His kids kind of go home in one hour.
736
00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:34.329
He's going to go.
737
00:29:34.480 --> 00:29:35.710
He's going to go to the gym unless he's doing
738
00:29:35.730 --> 00:29:38.829
his morning gym routine. My weeks, I don't almost want
739
00:29:39.049 --> 00:29:39.569
anything the same.
740
00:29:39.589 --> 00:29:42.250
Hmm. My week, it's like everything is always new.
741
00:29:42.269 --> 00:29:45.279
And I think as I've gotten older, I'm trying to
742
00:29:45.319 --> 00:29:46.640
reduce my novelty chasing.
743
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:49.940
But to some extent, that's my personality. I like scheduling.
744
00:29:49.980 --> 00:29:51.539
I like planning. But I don't want my weeks to
745
00:29:51.700 --> 00:29:52.539
feel like Groundhog Day.
746
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:53.140
Yeah.
747
00:29:53.720 --> 00:29:57.480
And so that my like my days is generally my
748
00:29:57.529 --> 00:29:59.490
week is somewhat structured in terms of like certain days.
749
00:29:59.710 --> 00:30:02.910
I like doing certain things, but I like variety within
750
00:30:02.950 --> 00:30:06.130
my week versus like doing blog writing, you know, five
751
00:30:06.150 --> 00:30:08.569
days a week, eight hours a day, you know, in
752
00:30:08.589 --> 00:30:09.119
my 20s.
753
00:30:09.130 --> 00:30:10.569
Yeah, I was I was super excited about that.
754
00:30:11.390 --> 00:30:13.079
But now I'd rather find the people who like to
755
00:30:13.119 --> 00:30:15.079
do that and then coach them, teach them and have
756
00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:17.299
them be the writer. And, you know, it's like Steve
757
00:30:17.339 --> 00:30:19.039
Kerr of the Warriors. Like he's not playing on the
758
00:30:19.079 --> 00:30:19.400
court anymore.
759
00:30:19.420 --> 00:30:19.799
He's a coach.
760
00:30:20.019 --> 00:30:22.539
And then Curry and these other guys are winning the
761
00:30:22.579 --> 00:30:23.180
games directly.
762
00:30:23.910 --> 00:30:28.210
How often do people ask you for career slash life advice?
763
00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:34.799
Pretty often, which is confusing for me because I'm like, look,
764
00:30:35.039 --> 00:30:37.200
I think one I've experienced now, but I'm like, yo,
765
00:30:37.240 --> 00:30:38.000
I just live my life.
766
00:30:38.019 --> 00:30:39.839
I'm not trying to be a self-help person. I just
767
00:30:39.859 --> 00:30:43.369
help myself. And then I share my stories because I
768
00:30:43.410 --> 00:30:46.789
like seeing other people help themselves. I think the challenge
769
00:30:46.809 --> 00:30:49.420
for me is sometimes people look for other– a lot
770
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.039
of times people have the answers themselves, but they don't
771
00:30:52.079 --> 00:30:54.170
want to just do what they already know the answer is.
772
00:30:54.200 --> 00:30:57.140
So they're looking for external validation. And I do it
773
00:30:57.180 --> 00:30:58.839
too sometimes. Like I'm like, oh, I know this is
774
00:30:58.859 --> 00:31:00.359
what I should do, but I'm going to ask Ryan.
775
00:31:00.380 --> 00:31:02.009
I'm like, Ryan, what do you think I should do?
776
00:31:02.029 --> 00:31:06.059
And– I think people have a lot of expectations of
777
00:31:06.099 --> 00:31:09.039
others when it's like, I think real empowerment, real confidence,
778
00:31:09.099 --> 00:31:10.740
real success. A lot of times comes from what do
779
00:31:10.779 --> 00:31:13.119
you really want? Taking time to think about it and
780
00:31:13.140 --> 00:31:14.200
making choices for yourself.
781
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:15.309
Yeah.
782
00:31:15.470 --> 00:31:17.269
And that is challenging when people come to me like, Hey,
783
00:31:17.289 --> 00:31:18.930
can you solve this problem? I'm like, fuck man, I
784
00:31:18.970 --> 00:31:20.349
can solve it for myself. I don't, I don't want
785
00:31:20.369 --> 00:31:21.970
to fuck up your shit. You good luck with that.
786
00:31:21.990 --> 00:31:22.430
Yeah.
787
00:31:23.150 --> 00:31:25.809
So I asked that because I kind of want to
788
00:31:26.150 --> 00:31:28.150
do that right now. I know that's funny because we're
789
00:31:28.170 --> 00:31:29.089
just talking about it, but.
790
00:31:29.619 --> 00:31:31.559
Yeah, yeah, go for it. I can't promise it.
791
00:31:31.460 --> 00:31:32.460
Will help you. I know.
792
00:31:32.559 --> 00:31:34.220
But to me, you might validate what I'm already thinking,
793
00:31:34.259 --> 00:31:37.700
and I think you will. So you spent like $ 1. 5
794
00:31:37.180 --> 00:31:40.039
million to get Sumo.com. You wrote about it. It probably
795
00:31:40.140 --> 00:31:41.799
kind of went viral at least from what I saw
796
00:31:41.819 --> 00:31:44.720
to talk about why you did that. And you can
797
00:31:44.799 --> 00:31:48.349
talk about that too maybe within your answer. But one
798
00:31:48.369 --> 00:31:50.089
of the things that I go on walks with my
799
00:31:50.150 --> 00:31:52.789
wife because it helps with idea generation. We talk about
800
00:31:52.829 --> 00:31:55.750
things to do, things to add to whatever we're doing.
801
00:31:56.430 --> 00:31:58.829
And I said, I want to start something or add
802
00:31:58.849 --> 00:32:02.309
an extension to do something more. And I said, well,
803
00:32:02.329 --> 00:32:04.049
I'm trying to think of what do people ask me
804
00:32:04.069 --> 00:32:05.630
to do? This is stuff you've talked about also on
805
00:32:05.650 --> 00:32:08.839
your podcast. What are people asking of you? Or what
806
00:32:08.890 --> 00:32:10.339
questions do you get asked a lot? And if you
807
00:32:10.359 --> 00:32:12.519
just continue to answer those questions, you could probably charge
808
00:32:12.559 --> 00:32:14.400
for it at some point. And the questions that I
809
00:32:14.420 --> 00:32:17.420
get asked the most are, one, are about two different things.
810
00:32:17.519 --> 00:32:20.339
Interviewing within the corporate environment to hire people, because I've
811
00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.000
done that thousands of times, as well as then separately
812
00:32:23.140 --> 00:32:28.160
interviewing people Because I've done that 210 times or so.
813
00:32:28.839 --> 00:32:31.420
And so she's like, I think you get asked so
814
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:35.529
often about how to hire good people, how to interview
815
00:32:35.569 --> 00:32:39.509
people that you should create a course on interviewing. And
816
00:32:39.549 --> 00:32:43.029
so I immediately came home and I bought howtointerviewpeople.com. And
817
00:32:43.049 --> 00:32:48.190
there's another website or URL, interviewpeople.com, which is $ 524 currently
818
00:32:48.210 --> 00:32:48.849
to buy right now.
819
00:32:49.309 --> 00:32:50.630
And so I thought, should I buy that? And I
820
00:32:50.670 --> 00:32:51.289
thought of, no.
821
00:32:51.410 --> 00:32:52.750
What was the thing? Sorry, what was the thing?
822
00:32:53.190 --> 00:32:57.960
So interviewpeople.com costs $ 524 to buy right now. How to
823
00:32:57.980 --> 00:33:00.740
interview people I already bought was like $ 14, whatever.
824
00:33:01.059 --> 00:33:01.559
Normal stuff.
825
00:33:02.160 --> 00:33:03.700
And so I thought, I wonder what Noah would say
826
00:33:03.720 --> 00:33:07.230
because he spent $ 1. 5 million, slightly different given the fact
827
00:33:07.269 --> 00:33:10.500
that I'm thinking about a course that And I already
828
00:33:10.539 --> 00:33:13.240
have a website that people go to and you have your,
829
00:33:13.390 --> 00:33:15.750
you know, your business going, you spent 1.5 million. So
830
00:33:16.890 --> 00:33:19.470
knowing all of that, what's, what, what's, as I see
831
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:22.420
you kind of like, you know, you're thinking, I'm curious
832
00:33:22.440 --> 00:33:23.740
what's going through your mind right now.
833
00:33:24.799 --> 00:33:24.960
So.
834
00:33:26.309 --> 00:33:29.849
Let me tell you a story that I haven't shared. Oh, good.
835
00:33:30.009 --> 00:33:33.470
Two months ago, I do this thing called self-diagnostic where
836
00:33:33.490 --> 00:33:34.910
I sit in my chair. I bought a really nice
837
00:33:34.950 --> 00:33:37.369
chair because sometimes when you buy nice things, you'll probably
838
00:33:37.410 --> 00:33:39.250
use them more often or you'll enjoy using it.
839
00:33:40.210 --> 00:33:41.490
And I sit in this chair in the morning and
840
00:33:41.509 --> 00:33:43.349
I think about– I call it self-diagnostic. But what it
841
00:33:43.369 --> 00:33:45.630
basically is is that how is life going and how
842
00:33:45.650 --> 00:33:46.450
do I want my day to be?
843
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:48.339
That's all it is. It's not complicated.
844
00:33:48.359 --> 00:33:51.480
It's basically my form of meditation. And I've mentioned this
845
00:33:51.500 --> 00:33:53.480
to people. And I can always tell them whenever I
846
00:33:53.519 --> 00:33:55.779
mention self-diagnostic, they're like, damn, that's hella cool.
847
00:33:55.819 --> 00:33:56.250
I love it.
848
00:33:56.299 --> 00:33:57.009
I can't wait to do it.
849
00:33:58.019 --> 00:33:59.519
And then I got excited. I'm like, man, this is
850
00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:01.690
going to be a big thing. I should consider self-diagnostic.
851
00:34:01.710 --> 00:34:02.950
Let me go see if I can get the domain.
852
00:34:03.869 --> 00:34:06.750
And so I go to selfdiagnostic.com and the guy was like,
853
00:34:06.769 --> 00:34:11.579
I want $ 1, 500 for it or $ 2, 500, excuse me. And
854
00:34:11.619 --> 00:34:13.679
I was like, $ 2, 500, but that name, I can't believe
855
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:14.480
it's not taken.
856
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:14.940
It's only $ 2, 500.
857
00:34:14.820 --> 00:34:19.280
There's actually something there about not having money where you
858
00:34:19.320 --> 00:34:22.840
have to solve with limitations. It's a whole other discussion,
859
00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:25.860
very longer discussion. But having limitations is actually very helpful
860
00:34:25.980 --> 00:34:29.579
because now I have some money. I'm like, okay, fine, $ 2, 500.
861
00:34:28.820 --> 00:34:29.800
So I put a bid for $ 1, 000.
862
00:34:29.679 --> 00:34:32.760
And that's actually another interesting lesson is that there's no
863
00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:35.780
cost to bidding on things. Like you can lowball and
864
00:34:35.820 --> 00:34:37.500
not in a rude way, but you can make low
865
00:34:37.579 --> 00:34:39.880
offers on anything like a house or a domain or whatever.
866
00:34:40.099 --> 00:34:41.900
And there's no cost to it. So what's the risk?
867
00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:45.179
So go for it. And they came back and they said,
868
00:34:45.219 --> 00:34:49.840
we want $ 1, 900. And then I went to GoDaddy or whatever, Namecheap,
869
00:34:49.860 --> 00:34:52.159
and I searched self-diagnostic.com.
870
00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:54.800
$ 999.
871
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.670
Or if you use like a fat wallet or whatever
872
00:34:57.690 --> 00:35:01.190
it is, Honey Extension or Wikibuy, it was like $ 299.
873
00:35:00.349 --> 00:35:02.010
$ 299.
874
00:35:01.179 --> 00:35:04.949
So I was like, let me get self-diagnostic. And then
875
00:35:04.969 --> 00:35:06.590
it was the weekend. And then on Monday, they didn't
876
00:35:06.630 --> 00:35:08.929
come back with the counteroffer. And I was like, I
877
00:35:08.929 --> 00:35:13.750
don't even fucking care about self-diagnostic. I was like, what
878
00:35:13.769 --> 00:35:14.690
the fuck am I going to do with a $ 2, 000
879
00:35:14.590 --> 00:35:15.730
domain that ain't going to be shit?
880
00:35:15.789 --> 00:35:16.030
And so....
881
00:35:19.059 --> 00:35:20.559
The I don't.
882
00:35:20.460 --> 00:35:21.800
Know if you get the moral of the story, but
883
00:35:21.840 --> 00:35:24.900
my encouragement to you would probably be you're already doing
884
00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:27.800
like the whole entrepreneurship in my mind, which is like
885
00:35:27.820 --> 00:35:29.159
I'm going to buy a domain and it's going to
886
00:35:29.179 --> 00:35:30.699
be this much money. And I'm going to and I'm
887
00:35:30.739 --> 00:35:33.590
not saying that's not an approach that can work. Some
888
00:35:33.610 --> 00:35:35.969
people will be like, no, I did it and it worked.
889
00:35:37.309 --> 00:35:38.429
And the point there is that you can get to
890
00:35:38.469 --> 00:35:40.510
the same destination through a lot of different routes.
891
00:35:40.820 --> 00:35:41.380
Yeah.
892
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:44.099
The route that I've generally found works best is find
893
00:35:44.139 --> 00:35:47.039
something that works, makes money before you go and invest
894
00:35:47.079 --> 00:35:48.579
a lot. And then when it works, it makes money,
895
00:35:48.920 --> 00:35:51.719
invest as much as it fucking takes. So when I
896
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:58.340
started AppSumo.com March 2010, I tried to buy Sumo.com nine
897
00:35:58.380 --> 00:36:01.099
months later for.
898
00:36:00.300 --> 00:36:05.659
$ 50, 000.
899
00:36:01.639 --> 00:36:03.860
Because I was making a few hundred thousand at that point.
900
00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:05.780
And I was like, okay, 50,000. But they were like, no,
901
00:36:05.800 --> 00:36:06.639
we want a quarter million.
902
00:36:07.309 --> 00:36:07.510
Wow.
903
00:36:07.929 --> 00:36:09.949
And I'm like a quarter million. This is crazy.
904
00:36:11.050 --> 00:36:12.639
And, you know, seven years later, a million and a
905
00:36:12.659 --> 00:36:14.760
half dollars. I was like, you know, it's something I
906
00:36:15.280 --> 00:36:18.800
really wanted. And I had the capital and it was
907
00:36:18.960 --> 00:36:21.380
a long term asset where no matter what, like, let's
908
00:36:21.400 --> 00:36:23.030
say even a lot of our business goes to shit.
909
00:36:23.730 --> 00:36:25.769
Like I would start a Gmail competitor and sell out
910
00:36:25.929 --> 00:36:29.409
the domain sumo.com or I just knew that there was
911
00:36:29.429 --> 00:36:30.570
a lot of things to it. And I know that
912
00:36:31.070 --> 00:36:34.130
owning that brand was there's not many large brands that
913
00:36:34.150 --> 00:36:38.619
don't have their own domain. Even Slack or Stripe or Facebook,
914
00:36:38.699 --> 00:36:40.260
none of them started out with their original domain.
915
00:36:40.699 --> 00:36:41.119
Think about it.
916
00:36:41.300 --> 00:36:45.070
The Facebook, Slack HQ, get Stripe. And now they all
917
00:36:45.210 --> 00:36:47.469
own it because they're rich as fuck. I'm not saying
918
00:36:47.489 --> 00:36:50.130
that we're at their level whatsoever, but the point I
919
00:36:50.130 --> 00:36:52.369
would encourage you, and maybe this is your answer, but
920
00:36:52.710 --> 00:36:55.650
just go sell your course, make some of that moolah,
921
00:36:55.989 --> 00:36:57.940
and then you're either A, no one wants it.
922
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:01.619
And thank God you didn't waste on the domain. Or B,
923
00:37:01.639 --> 00:37:02.420
people want it crazy.
924
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:05.260
And then a $ 1, 500 decision is fine. And even if
925
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.070
they raise it on you, $ 2, 500, who cares?
926
00:37:07.489 --> 00:37:09.230
Right. If you're already doing it. No, it's good advice.
927
00:37:09.530 --> 00:37:13.730
I had a feeling typically the proper thing to do
928
00:37:13.829 --> 00:37:16.769
is to just do the work. Do the work. Create
929
00:37:16.789 --> 00:37:18.260
it first. Ship it.
930
00:37:18.539 --> 00:37:20.880
And then worry about the other things behind it. So
931
00:37:20.900 --> 00:37:23.719
that's why it's like start writing it. Start actually doing it.
932
00:37:24.730 --> 00:37:27.050
putting it out there before you worry about the other things.
933
00:37:27.510 --> 00:37:29.730
But think about this. Why is that? Why do people
934
00:37:30.050 --> 00:37:32.289
tend to do that first? I have a thought.
935
00:37:32.329 --> 00:37:32.929
Do what first?
936
00:37:33.349 --> 00:37:34.789
Buy the domain and all that kind of stuff first.
937
00:37:34.949 --> 00:37:35.650
It's easier.
938
00:37:35.670 --> 00:37:37.730
Yeah.
939
00:37:38.489 --> 00:37:40.559
Right? I mean, yeah. Or just like saying, why do
940
00:37:40.579 --> 00:37:42.840
you say like, well, I'm going to write a book.
941
00:37:43.380 --> 00:37:45.400
I'm going to, right? There's a lot of things that
942
00:37:45.420 --> 00:37:46.639
people are going to do.
943
00:37:47.420 --> 00:37:50.340
And I prefer... I'll tell you this funny story. This
944
00:37:50.360 --> 00:37:52.320
podcast that I had, it started two and a half
945
00:37:52.360 --> 00:37:52.840
years ago.
946
00:37:53.420 --> 00:37:54.000
I really.
947
00:37:54.480 --> 00:37:58.599
like weirdly sensitive about telling people things I'm going to do.
948
00:37:59.159 --> 00:38:01.920
I prefer, I prefer for them to see what has
949
00:38:01.960 --> 00:38:05.019
been done. So like, I didn't tell my parents, I
950
00:38:05.039 --> 00:38:07.719
didn't tell any of my friends. I told nobody, one
951
00:38:07.739 --> 00:38:09.619
of my mentors who pushed me to do it, my
952
00:38:09.699 --> 00:38:12.590
wife and my younger brother, who's who's who I talk
953
00:38:12.610 --> 00:38:15.110
to every day. And so other than them, nobody even
954
00:38:15.170 --> 00:38:18.050
knew about it. And I recorded like 26 episodes before
955
00:38:18.110 --> 00:38:20.630
I released one. So I knew for a fact, I
956
00:38:20.670 --> 00:38:23.969
got eight weeks worth of content. And then people could
957
00:38:23.989 --> 00:38:27.489
be like, what is this? My friends, my family, additional
958
00:38:27.510 --> 00:38:30.969
because I just really am, like I said, kind of
959
00:38:31.030 --> 00:38:34.050
sensitive to the I'm going to do this or I
960
00:38:34.110 --> 00:38:36.070
want to do this instead of just saying, well, no,
961
00:38:36.139 --> 00:38:37.489
I did this and I'm doing it.
962
00:38:38.860 --> 00:38:40.579
That's good for you. Well, I'll put you on the
963
00:38:40.599 --> 00:38:41.099
spot with it.
964
00:38:41.280 --> 00:38:43.400
Josh, I guess, gave you the unfortunately the heads up.
965
00:38:43.739 --> 00:38:44.800
So what are you going to do about your course
966
00:38:44.840 --> 00:38:46.510
to make some to see if people actually want it?
967
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:50.090
Well, I got to get it done first. And then
968
00:38:50.150 --> 00:38:53.090
I think I eat. What? No.
969
00:38:53.489 --> 00:38:53.750
Okay.
970
00:38:53.769 --> 00:38:55.090
So this is the same thing.
971
00:38:55.110 --> 00:38:56.739
You're going to go spend a bunch of time building
972
00:38:56.780 --> 00:38:57.960
a course that you're not sure people want.
973
00:38:58.320 --> 00:39:00.780
Yep. So you would ask people closest to you if
974
00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:01.789
they would pay for it.
975
00:39:02.420 --> 00:39:03.360
Don't worry about what I would do.
976
00:39:03.860 --> 00:39:04.099
I know.
977
00:39:04.119 --> 00:39:05.719
I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm semi.
978
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.639
Otherwise you'd be a bald Jewish guy living in Texas.
979
00:39:07.679 --> 00:39:09.199
I'm semi asking for advice.
980
00:39:10.659 --> 00:39:12.210
Well, I think the thing, you know, it's interesting. I
981
00:39:12.250 --> 00:39:15.190
was walking yesterday. It was very good. It was so cool.
982
00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:17.050
It was like some guy recognized me on the bridge.
983
00:39:18.090 --> 00:39:20.860
in Austin. And he's like, yeah, man, I listen to
984
00:39:20.880 --> 00:39:22.619
your podcast. It's the best one I ever heard. And
985
00:39:22.659 --> 00:39:23.800
I was like, yeah, no.
986
00:39:24.260 --> 00:39:26.719
Anyways, and then he said to me, he said, you know,
987
00:39:26.739 --> 00:39:29.210
I'm working, I'm like, oh, tell me what's exciting for you.
988
00:39:29.389 --> 00:39:30.760
And I actually think that's a really good question to
989
00:39:30.780 --> 00:39:31.900
ask people. What's exciting for you.
990
00:39:32.039 --> 00:39:32.199
Yeah.
991
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:34.900
And so he said, Oh, I'm building an app for
992
00:39:34.940 --> 00:39:37.320
real estate. And I, and I think when I was
993
00:39:37.340 --> 00:39:38.900
in my twenties, I'm 35 now, but I was in
994
00:39:38.940 --> 00:39:40.679
my twenties and I was like, well, how are you
995
00:39:40.699 --> 00:39:41.050
building in?
996
00:39:41.079 --> 00:39:42.880
What's the problem you're solving? Who's the customer?
997
00:39:42.900 --> 00:39:43.239
Where are they?
998
00:39:43.260 --> 00:39:46.119
There's only three questions in starting a business. What's the problem?
999
00:39:46.199 --> 00:39:46.820
Who's the customer?
1000
00:39:46.840 --> 00:39:47.239
Where are they?
1001
00:39:48.340 --> 00:39:50.739
And he said, oh, man, it's this app. It's going
1002
00:39:50.760 --> 00:39:53.579
to connect my audience and I can message them new properties.
1003
00:39:53.659 --> 00:39:55.480
And I was like, I'm like, it's kind of like
1004
00:39:55.500 --> 00:39:57.340
an email, right? You're just going to know, but it's
1005
00:39:57.360 --> 00:39:58.539
going to be in an app so they can have
1006
00:39:58.579 --> 00:40:00.739
it right away. I'm like, well, their phone probably has email, too.
1007
00:40:01.760 --> 00:40:03.679
And I was like, oh, well, when's it coming out then?
1008
00:40:03.719 --> 00:40:04.840
He's like, oh, end of the year.
1009
00:40:06.380 --> 00:40:08.909
And I don't think you can really convince people that
1010
00:40:08.929 --> 00:40:10.929
are that don't want to be convinced. They have to
1011
00:40:10.969 --> 00:40:11.750
learn it for themselves.
1012
00:40:11.909 --> 00:40:12.210
And so.
1013
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:15.019
I think that's what a lot of times when I'm
1014
00:40:15.059 --> 00:40:17.539
giving advice, I'm like, why not? Don't even give people advice.
1015
00:40:17.719 --> 00:40:18.840
Go try it out yourself.
1016
00:40:18.980 --> 00:40:20.949
Do it right now. Figure it out. And when it
1017
00:40:20.989 --> 00:40:22.670
doesn't work, then maybe you listen to me or someone
1018
00:40:22.690 --> 00:40:26.530
else that, you know, you're interested in. But to you,
1019
00:40:26.550 --> 00:40:26.849
I'm not.
1020
00:40:27.110 --> 00:40:28.170
I think if I tell you what to do, you
1021
00:40:28.190 --> 00:40:30.050
may not do it. And so I think that's why
1022
00:40:30.070 --> 00:40:31.510
I always like to ask people, like, what are you
1023
00:40:31.530 --> 00:40:33.599
going to do? And then maybe poke a little bit
1024
00:40:33.639 --> 00:40:34.920
of a, you know, poke at that.
1025
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:37.840
So why were you poking when I said I was
1026
00:40:37.860 --> 00:40:39.199
going to write, write it first?
1027
00:40:39.880 --> 00:40:40.099
All right.
1028
00:40:40.139 --> 00:40:41.900
Let's, let's dive into that a little bit and then
1029
00:40:41.920 --> 00:40:44.179
we can understand. And then I'll just suggest.
1030
00:40:44.360 --> 00:40:44.619
Perfect.
1031
00:40:45.059 --> 00:40:47.639
So you're, which, which course did you decide to create
1032
00:40:47.659 --> 00:40:49.059
or which thing did you decide that you wanted to
1033
00:40:49.079 --> 00:40:50.019
be an expert in?
1034
00:40:50.980 --> 00:40:51.360
Interviewing.
1035
00:40:51.880 --> 00:40:52.199
Interviewing.
1036
00:40:53.179 --> 00:40:56.449
And hiring for people at companies, corporations. I've done that
1037
00:40:56.489 --> 00:40:59.630
for 12 years. And so we're continuously to interview and
1038
00:40:59.710 --> 00:41:02.409
hire people and helped others do that as well within corporations.
1039
00:41:03.070 --> 00:41:04.829
So is this as like, and so who would buy
1040
00:41:04.849 --> 00:41:05.349
this product?
1041
00:41:06.610 --> 00:41:08.650
Anybody who would potentially hire.
1042
00:41:10.289 --> 00:41:14.829
So is that HR manager, recruiter, director of people?
1043
00:41:15.210 --> 00:41:16.230
Leader of sales teams.
1044
00:41:16.269 --> 00:41:16.449
Yeah.
1045
00:41:16.809 --> 00:41:16.949
Yep.
1046
00:41:17.230 --> 00:41:17.469
Okay.
1047
00:41:17.909 --> 00:41:20.130
And so let's say, and what's the plan right now?
1048
00:41:20.250 --> 00:41:22.409
Walk me through that. You're going to put together the course.
1049
00:41:23.489 --> 00:41:23.710
Yes.
1050
00:41:23.969 --> 00:41:26.969
So currently there's like an outline mapped out of the
1051
00:41:27.030 --> 00:41:28.929
process because I think the most important thing when you
1052
00:41:28.949 --> 00:41:31.860
talk about, so for example, if you're in a corporation,
1053
00:41:31.880 --> 00:41:35.929
you get promoted to a management role. Most companies do
1054
00:41:35.989 --> 00:41:38.610
a poor job of training you of how to do
1055
00:41:38.710 --> 00:41:41.530
one of the most important things, which is interview, hire,
1056
00:41:42.389 --> 00:41:44.760
what to say, what to ask, what to know, what
1057
00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.059
to look for. And I always say you have to
1058
00:41:47.159 --> 00:41:50.320
understand the why behind every question that you ask in
1059
00:41:50.360 --> 00:41:52.960
that process. What are you looking for? Why are you
1060
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:55.159
asking that question? Did you just read it on a
1061
00:41:55.179 --> 00:41:57.920
paper and that's why you said it? No, like understand
1062
00:41:58.059 --> 00:42:00.519
why you're asking them to go through the resume or
1063
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:02.820
why you're asking them certain qualities that they think leads
1064
00:42:02.840 --> 00:42:05.739
to success or whatever it may be. And so the
1065
00:42:05.800 --> 00:42:08.300
problem is people don't– they're not good at that. They
1066
00:42:08.340 --> 00:42:11.500
just rattle off questions. And so they need to understand
1067
00:42:11.519 --> 00:42:16.340
their foundational process and purposes behind what they do. And
1068
00:42:16.389 --> 00:42:18.929
so I think there could be a better job of–
1069
00:42:19.090 --> 00:42:20.849
we could do a better job of teaching people how
1070
00:42:20.869 --> 00:42:21.329
to do that.
1071
00:42:21.369 --> 00:42:25.150
So it's outlining that thought process for people.
1072
00:42:26.050 --> 00:42:28.329
Okay. And then so how much longer do you– what's
1073
00:42:28.369 --> 00:42:28.849
the plan on it?
1074
00:42:30.539 --> 00:42:32.619
The plan is to write it.
1075
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:34.280
How much longer? When is that going to be finished?
1076
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:36.789
I could get it done in a couple weeks probably.
1077
00:42:37.469 --> 00:42:38.510
And then how are you going to get people to
1078
00:42:38.550 --> 00:42:38.800
buy it?
1079
00:42:39.570 --> 00:42:43.110
Well, the main platform I have is my podcast and
1080
00:42:43.130 --> 00:42:45.159
my website and my email list.
1081
00:42:46.519 --> 00:42:49.539
The email list, which is you started finally investing in that,
1082
00:42:49.579 --> 00:42:51.099
which is smart. Because it's one of these things that
1083
00:42:51.139 --> 00:42:53.420
even if you don't do anything with it, which you should,
1084
00:42:53.800 --> 00:42:56.070
that when you finally do have products or services, that
1085
00:42:56.090 --> 00:42:57.969
you have an audience that's ready for it.
1086
00:42:58.110 --> 00:42:59.510
Right. Versus podcasts.
1087
00:42:59.949 --> 00:43:02.730
Podcasts, man, I let you know, my show, Noah Kagan Presents,
1088
00:43:03.190 --> 00:43:05.230
people aren't ready to take action on podcasts because they're
1089
00:43:05.250 --> 00:43:07.250
either on the toilet, they're at the gym, or they're driving.
1090
00:43:07.469 --> 00:43:07.630
Right.
1091
00:43:07.849 --> 00:43:09.510
And so they're not actually like, yay. But on an
1092
00:43:09.590 --> 00:43:14.050
email list, if they come to learningleader.com, they can finally
1093
00:43:14.070 --> 00:43:15.449
get updates and connect with you and so forth.
1094
00:43:16.050 --> 00:43:16.309
All right.
1095
00:43:16.349 --> 00:43:18.590
So you're going to spend two months making a course,
1096
00:43:19.550 --> 00:43:21.480
maybe send out an email, find out that people know,
1097
00:43:21.800 --> 00:43:22.940
and you're going to send an email and no one
1098
00:43:22.980 --> 00:43:23.250
wants it.
1099
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:24.260
Yep.
1100
00:43:24.380 --> 00:43:24.559
Right.
1101
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:25.219
Potentially.
1102
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:25.619
Right.
1103
00:43:25.639 --> 00:43:27.000
And now you spent three months on something that.
1104
00:43:26.960 --> 00:43:27.360
No one wants.
1105
00:43:27.380 --> 00:43:27.940
Okay.
1106
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:29.199
Okay.
1107
00:43:29.219 --> 00:43:31.699
So the way that I would just reframe it, and
1108
00:43:31.719 --> 00:43:33.320
this is here, when are you going your next walk.
1109
00:43:33.179 --> 00:43:35.900
With your wife? We go probably tomorrow.
1110
00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:38.730
I think that's a good thing, man. You should bring
1111
00:43:38.750 --> 00:43:40.389
that walk with a wife. That should be like a
1112
00:43:40.530 --> 00:43:41.170
segment of your show.
1113
00:43:41.510 --> 00:43:43.010
Okay. We do.
1114
00:43:43.130 --> 00:43:44.570
I wrote about it in my email list. It actually
1115
00:43:44.590 --> 00:43:46.730
got the most clicks of any article I ever put
1116
00:43:46.789 --> 00:43:49.469
was about walking. I mean, there's a lot of science there.
1117
00:43:49.510 --> 00:43:51.369
It's not like a new thing, but still, I'm a
1118
00:43:51.469 --> 00:43:52.199
big believer in it.
1119
00:43:53.769 --> 00:43:55.030
And was it walking with your wife?
1120
00:43:55.269 --> 00:43:55.469
Yes.
1121
00:43:56.710 --> 00:43:59.280
So I don't think I'm smarter than anybody else. I
1122
00:43:59.320 --> 00:44:01.079
think I'm above average, but I don't think I'm gifted.
1123
00:44:02.110 --> 00:44:04.030
I think what I've done better is that I do things,
1124
00:44:04.389 --> 00:44:06.659
like I just go, and then afterwards I'm like, oh, shit,
1125
00:44:06.699 --> 00:44:09.360
maybe I should have thought about that, which mostly has
1126
00:44:09.380 --> 00:44:11.079
worked out well, but sometimes it works out bad. The
1127
00:44:11.099 --> 00:44:12.679
second thing I think that I've done well that I
1128
00:44:12.719 --> 00:44:15.559
encourage others to do is if that was your most
1129
00:44:15.699 --> 00:44:19.500
popular email you've ever sent, I would just start considering
1130
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:20.960
how could I do more of those kind of emails,
1131
00:44:21.159 --> 00:44:23.530
and what was it about that email that worked?
1132
00:44:25.190 --> 00:44:27.969
So there's something interesting with that.
1133
00:44:28.210 --> 00:44:29.610
One of the things I did that was a little
1134
00:44:29.630 --> 00:44:32.329
bit different on the link I kind of said this
1135
00:44:32.389 --> 00:44:35.869
is why you should– instead of– I didn't broadcast what
1136
00:44:35.909 --> 00:44:38.110
it was. But I said like there are ways that
1137
00:44:38.210 --> 00:44:42.550
this helps with idea creation, creativity, innovation. And if you
1138
00:44:42.590 --> 00:44:46.449
want that, then click on this. And so people are
1139
00:44:46.469 --> 00:44:48.599
probably like, well, what is he talking about? I didn't
1140
00:44:48.639 --> 00:44:50.559
write in the email like you should go on walks.
1141
00:44:50.699 --> 00:44:52.969
But then you clicked on it and then you would–
1142
00:44:53.019 --> 00:44:54.760
you click on the link and then it tells you
1143
00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:58.159
the science behind going on walks. And so that was–
1144
00:44:58.650 --> 00:45:00.170
I'm sure that was part of it was the way
1145
00:45:00.190 --> 00:45:01.429
it was written. And it might've had something to do
1146
00:45:01.449 --> 00:45:04.219
with Neville and the fact of some of the copywriting
1147
00:45:04.260 --> 00:45:06.079
to say, this is the way to get people to
1148
00:45:06.199 --> 00:45:08.760
be interested. And I was testing it out really to say,
1149
00:45:09.079 --> 00:45:10.800
instead of just putting it out there, right in the
1150
00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:12.980
body of the email, what if you're a little bit,
1151
00:45:13.000 --> 00:45:15.780
I don't know, cagey, is that the right word or whatever,
1152
00:45:15.860 --> 00:45:17.360
just to get people to click and it worked.
1153
00:45:18.510 --> 00:45:20.289
Well, I think that, you know, it's amazing how many
1154
00:45:20.309 --> 00:45:23.210
times you hear innovations that came out of accidents.
1155
00:45:23.349 --> 00:45:23.550
Yeah.
1156
00:45:23.570 --> 00:45:25.769
Like, Oh yeah, you know, I actually made a mistake
1157
00:45:25.849 --> 00:45:28.260
and that mistake was, It led to something really great.
1158
00:45:28.400 --> 00:45:30.840
Or people start their own breweries because they're not trying
1159
00:45:30.860 --> 00:45:32.760
to make a brewery. They're just trying to make great beer.
1160
00:45:32.880 --> 00:45:35.280
And they're like, people love the beer. And they're like, anyways,
1161
00:45:35.340 --> 00:45:37.449
pay attention to what's working. Point being, though, I think
1162
00:45:37.469 --> 00:45:40.489
what's interesting about what you're saying is that you're going
1163
00:45:40.510 --> 00:45:42.690
to spend two months on the unknown. And I think
1164
00:45:43.449 --> 00:45:45.289
part of what makes life interesting is unknown. If it
1165
00:45:45.329 --> 00:45:46.829
was all known, it wouldn't be that interesting.
1166
00:45:47.050 --> 00:45:47.230
Right.
1167
00:45:47.250 --> 00:45:47.329
Yeah.
1168
00:45:47.960 --> 00:45:49.340
Because you're already going to know everything. You wouldn't go
1169
00:45:49.380 --> 00:45:51.239
watch movies when you know the endings.
1170
00:45:51.840 --> 00:45:53.179
So I guess the thing I would think about is
1171
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:55.670
that what I've done, and this is what's worked for me,
1172
00:45:55.699 --> 00:45:58.619
is what if you had to figure it out by Monday?
1173
00:45:59.659 --> 00:46:00.670
That people wanted it or not.
1174
00:46:01.750 --> 00:46:03.250
How would you figure out if they wanted it or not?
1175
00:46:03.269 --> 00:46:04.570
I don't know. You tell me.
1176
00:46:05.250 --> 00:46:05.809
I'm asking.
1177
00:46:06.409 --> 00:46:07.130
No, I know.
1178
00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:09.369
If you had to find out by Monday, I would
1179
00:46:09.409 --> 00:46:11.590
actually say tomorrow, but I'm going to be nice on you.
1180
00:46:11.710 --> 00:46:14.320
But yeah, fuck it. Let's do tomorrow. Tomorrow and a day. Like,
1181
00:46:14.360 --> 00:46:15.559
what would you do to figure this out?
1182
00:46:15.699 --> 00:46:20.150
So... Okay, a couple things. I would ask.
1183
00:46:21.789 --> 00:46:25.409
People close to me, friends, colleagues, people that I've worked with,
1184
00:46:25.889 --> 00:46:27.510
and I would also send.
1185
00:46:27.730 --> 00:46:29.030
What would you ask them, sir? That's one of those
1186
00:46:29.050 --> 00:46:31.469
things where people give like a general answer.
1187
00:46:32.659 --> 00:46:33.239
What are you asking?
1188
00:46:33.840 --> 00:46:37.599
So I would say I am writing a course on
1189
00:46:38.059 --> 00:46:41.420
how to interview people, and it's going to help you
1190
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:46.429
become better– Understand why you ask the questions you ask.
1191
00:46:46.510 --> 00:46:49.730
Understand what exactly you're looking for in those people. And
1192
00:46:49.789 --> 00:46:52.050
this is going to help you to be better at
1193
00:46:52.110 --> 00:46:52.550
doing that.
1194
00:46:53.610 --> 00:46:53.809
Okay.
1195
00:46:53.889 --> 00:46:55.429
And so you would call them or text them or
1196
00:46:55.530 --> 00:46:57.639
email them or what?
1197
00:46:57.840 --> 00:46:58.539
I would call them.
1198
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.119
I would email them. I would do all those things,
1199
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:01.659
text them. I would also send a note to my
1200
00:47:01.699 --> 00:47:03.400
list saying the same thing.
1201
00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:06.070
And so why haven't you just done that first?
1202
00:47:06.969 --> 00:47:07.230
I don't know.
1203
00:47:08.679 --> 00:47:08.940
I have.
1204
00:47:08.960 --> 00:47:12.019
I think it goes back to like the podcast.
1205
00:47:12.039 --> 00:47:15.519
I recorded 24 episodes before launching a single one of them.
1206
00:47:15.559 --> 00:47:18.389
I wanted to get the work done and then launch.
1207
00:47:19.409 --> 00:47:21.050
And, you know, part of that was a little bit
1208
00:47:21.070 --> 00:47:22.789
of iTunes strategy two and a half years ago with
1209
00:47:22.829 --> 00:47:25.849
new and noteworthy and releasing. And I studied how to
1210
00:47:25.869 --> 00:47:28.570
better optimize that, you know, reviews, ratings. It's a little
1211
00:47:28.590 --> 00:47:31.019
bit different now, I know, to getting a new and noteworthy.
1212
00:47:31.119 --> 00:47:34.840
But at that time, it was, you know, consistent publication.
1213
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.559
So that was part of it. But I still kind of,
1214
00:47:39.340 --> 00:47:42.380
Think about that of getting the work done and then
1215
00:47:42.659 --> 00:47:46.139
launching as opposed to building the plane as it's flying,
1216
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:46.699
so to speak.
1217
00:47:48.510 --> 00:47:50.429
I said earlier, and I think that I want to
1218
00:47:50.449 --> 00:47:52.710
repeat it for a lot of people that they're like, no, no,
1219
00:47:52.750 --> 00:47:53.130
it's wrong.
1220
00:47:53.269 --> 00:47:54.309
And I'm not saying it's wrong.
1221
00:47:55.190 --> 00:47:58.030
Because you can get to Mexico through driving, through a bicycle,
1222
00:47:58.090 --> 00:48:00.670
through rollerblades or airplanes or boats.
1223
00:48:00.730 --> 00:48:01.210
I don't care.
1224
00:48:01.389 --> 00:48:01.750
Rafts.
1225
00:48:02.110 --> 00:48:02.869
Yeah.
1226
00:48:03.070 --> 00:48:03.849
And you can still get there.
1227
00:48:04.349 --> 00:48:07.610
I'm just trying to find the shortest way possible to
1228
00:48:07.630 --> 00:48:09.610
save the most money and time. And this is what's
1229
00:48:09.659 --> 00:48:12.980
worked for me in my career. So I do think
1230
00:48:13.019 --> 00:48:15.860
that can work. But I like encouraging you to do
1231
00:48:15.900 --> 00:48:17.400
it within a shorter period of time so you understand
1232
00:48:17.420 --> 00:48:18.010
that they want it.
1233
00:48:18.360 --> 00:48:18.739
And guess what?
1234
00:48:18.800 --> 00:48:20.239
When you find out they want it, then you could
1235
00:48:20.559 --> 00:48:23.099
actually serve exactly what they want versus assume what they want.
1236
00:48:23.320 --> 00:48:28.449
What about– Because right now– Yeah. So like the caffeinated gum, right?
1237
00:48:28.550 --> 00:48:32.400
That's what something started. So, so what was your process for,
1238
00:48:32.980 --> 00:48:33.579
why'd you do that?
1239
00:48:34.579 --> 00:48:38.260
So I don't, we're not going to excuse you, but, uh,
1240
00:48:38.460 --> 00:48:40.590
I started a caffeinated gum cause I wanted coffee gum.
1241
00:48:41.139 --> 00:48:41.389
Okay.
1242
00:48:42.050 --> 00:48:44.949
I want gum that tastes like coffee. And has caffeine
1243
00:48:44.969 --> 00:48:46.809
in it. Generally, most of the businesses that I've started
1244
00:48:46.849 --> 00:48:48.880
are just things that I want solved and no one
1245
00:48:48.909 --> 00:48:49.469
else has done it.
1246
00:48:49.500 --> 00:48:50.280
So I just do it myself.
1247
00:48:50.800 --> 00:48:53.059
And then I thought it would be interesting to then
1248
00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:55.139
make a business as a case study to show other people.
1249
00:48:55.800 --> 00:48:57.849
And I hired someone and then we started to do it.
1250
00:48:58.030 --> 00:49:00.050
And then I said, I don't really want to run
1251
00:49:00.090 --> 00:49:01.650
a gum company. I'm not interested in it. And the
1252
00:49:01.670 --> 00:49:04.190
other person wasn't interested in continuing it. But the point
1253
00:49:04.210 --> 00:49:06.199
was is that within less than, I think it was
1254
00:49:06.219 --> 00:49:09.019
around two weeks, I was pretty clear I had three
1255
00:49:09.059 --> 00:49:11.280
people that gave me money. I had a product that
1256
00:49:11.320 --> 00:49:13.989
actually didn't taste that bad and I think has still
1257
00:49:14.030 --> 00:49:16.190
potential if someone else wants to do it. And so
1258
00:49:16.369 --> 00:49:17.809
I think the bigger thing that I'm encouraging you to
1259
00:49:17.849 --> 00:49:19.590
do is how can you see if people want that?
1260
00:49:19.619 --> 00:49:21.159
Because what you might find out is that no one
1261
00:49:21.199 --> 00:49:24.300
wants it, which is great. And the second thing is
1262
00:49:24.320 --> 00:49:26.699
then what do they want with recruiting? Is it actually
1263
00:49:27.420 --> 00:49:31.840
the interview process or is it finding candidates? So the
1264
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:33.340
big thing, the big message I'm trying to point out
1265
00:49:33.360 --> 00:49:35.960
there is that when someone rejects you, like if you
1266
00:49:36.000 --> 00:49:40.440
rejected your dash, well, why is email list not important? Okay, well,
1267
00:49:40.449 --> 00:49:42.420
it's not important because blah, blah, blah. Well, it sounds
1268
00:49:42.440 --> 00:49:45.179
like actually it might be important or, well, what's more
1269
00:49:45.199 --> 00:49:47.739
important instead? And then really understanding what the customer needs.
1270
00:49:48.539 --> 00:49:50.559
And so that's where I'd say if they say reject you, great.
1271
00:49:50.579 --> 00:49:52.139
You didn't waste all that time and money building it.
1272
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:54.519
The second thing I think is you're realizing is that
1273
00:49:54.900 --> 00:49:56.739
if you already had a larger audience on an email
1274
00:49:56.760 --> 00:49:59.639
list so that you can communicate with them directly, then
1275
00:49:59.659 --> 00:50:01.559
you don't have to go out and find customers because
1276
00:50:01.579 --> 00:50:04.000
you already have been working and building that relationship with them.
1277
00:50:06.130 --> 00:50:07.650
Makes sense. Okay.
1278
00:50:08.070 --> 00:50:11.010
This is such a different type of episode I'm having,
1279
00:50:11.340 --> 00:50:12.159
a conversation.
1280
00:50:12.280 --> 00:50:14.219
But it's so helpful and it's good. I appreciate it.
1281
00:50:14.219 --> 00:50:15.539
What are they normally like?
1282
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:18.039
Well, I mean I have like a list. There's a
1283
00:50:18.059 --> 00:50:20.780
lot of authors. So I don't know. And so we're
1284
00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:22.639
talking about some of the things they've written about.
1285
00:50:23.070 --> 00:50:25.929
Whereas now we're having like a one-on-one almost like coaching
1286
00:50:26.190 --> 00:50:28.349
session moment. But I think people, as you said before,
1287
00:50:28.389 --> 00:50:31.869
they enjoy coaching. Kind of getting a peek behind what
1288
00:50:31.889 --> 00:50:35.010
it sounds like when somebody is helping somebody.
1289
00:50:34.789 --> 00:50:36.309
Else one-on-one, and that's what you're doing.
1290
00:50:36.329 --> 00:50:38.639
And it obviously will help other people who have similar
1291
00:50:38.719 --> 00:50:42.280
thoughts based on whatever they're thinking about creating.
1292
00:50:43.260 --> 00:50:45.519
Well, you know, this applies to almost every type of
1293
00:50:45.559 --> 00:50:47.920
business that we can talk about authors as well, Ryan,
1294
00:50:47.980 --> 00:50:51.070
which is a lot of authors, everyone thinks that their
1295
00:50:51.110 --> 00:50:52.150
memoir is the most interesting.
1296
00:50:52.469 --> 00:50:52.630
Mm-hmm.
1297
00:50:53.150 --> 00:50:54.110
Everyone's like, oh, my book.
1298
00:50:54.130 --> 00:50:55.980
I'm like, yeah, there's a million books that come out
1299
00:50:56.019 --> 00:50:58.380
a year and maybe a thousand of them get popular
1300
00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:01.460
and probably even less than that become legacy books, which
1301
00:51:01.500 --> 00:51:02.940
mean they'll be around in 10 years.
1302
00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:03.940
Very, very few.
1303
00:51:04.420 --> 00:51:06.239
Like name five books. You can probably name four hour
1304
00:51:06.280 --> 00:51:07.610
work week, strength finder.
1305
00:51:08.230 --> 00:51:10.409
Seven habits and a few others, but very, very few
1306
00:51:11.269 --> 00:51:16.550
because most books aren't that great. And most authors spend
1307
00:51:16.550 --> 00:51:20.070
80% of their time writing and 20% promoting and But
1308
00:51:20.090 --> 00:51:21.869
if authors actually did what we're talking about with your
1309
00:51:21.909 --> 00:51:25.090
course where they actually went out, built their audience, started
1310
00:51:25.130 --> 00:51:28.210
blogging a bit more, built up people that want their material,
1311
00:51:28.650 --> 00:51:31.230
when they actually finally come out with a book, it's
1312
00:51:31.250 --> 00:51:32.610
not like, oh, I wonder if it's going to sell.
1313
00:51:32.690 --> 00:51:34.559
I don't believe in hope for business.
1314
00:51:36.820 --> 00:51:37.019
Mm-hmm.
1315
00:51:37.789 --> 00:51:40.130
So all people that are trying to write books, go out,
1316
00:51:40.250 --> 00:51:43.769
build your customer base through content, through one-on-ones, through meetup.com,
1317
00:51:44.210 --> 00:51:45.710
through a Facebook group, whatever it is, and get that
1318
00:51:45.750 --> 00:51:48.760
audience built and put out the material and see what's resonating.
1319
00:51:49.159 --> 00:51:51.380
And from there, then you can actually go out and
1320
00:51:51.420 --> 00:51:53.159
create a product that you know you already have customers for.
1321
00:51:53.179 --> 00:51:56.039
So I'll actually experiment with tweets. And I hate when
1322
00:51:56.059 --> 00:51:58.860
people talk about Twitter in real life. But what I've
1323
00:51:58.900 --> 00:52:00.380
done actually, and this has been interesting for me, is
1324
00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:02.699
I'll put out a bunch of different tweets about blog
1325
00:52:02.739 --> 00:52:05.030
articles I find or just quotes I think of.
1326
00:52:05.349 --> 00:52:05.489
Mm-hmm.
1327
00:52:06.519 --> 00:52:08.719
And what I'm looking for is where's the highest reaction.
1328
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:10.760
And then that's where I go create content or think
1329
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:13.110
about how do I expand on that? Like, should I
1330
00:52:13.139 --> 00:52:16.570
go interview someone around, uh, vulnerability? Should I interview someone
1331
00:52:16.590 --> 00:52:18.489
around essentialism, which is one of my latest shows on
1332
00:52:18.530 --> 00:52:21.010
Noah Kagan sense. And it's cause I just look for
1333
00:52:21.090 --> 00:52:23.829
what people are actually responding to versus just putting out
1334
00:52:23.869 --> 00:52:26.369
random shit, uh, that I think people want. There's a
1335
00:52:26.389 --> 00:52:28.489
Venn diagram of what you want to be doing and
1336
00:52:28.530 --> 00:52:30.849
what the market wants. And if you're not, if you're
1337
00:52:30.869 --> 00:52:33.070
not overlapping, you don't have a business, you don't have
1338
00:52:33.130 --> 00:52:34.170
anything that's going to be successful.
1339
00:52:36.150 --> 00:52:39.250
You, uh, talked about money and, uh, do you know
1340
00:52:39.349 --> 00:52:41.219
a DHH, David Hennemeyer Hanson?
1341
00:52:41.889 --> 00:52:43.539
I don't know him personally. I know of him and
1342
00:52:43.559 --> 00:52:44.179
I've chatted with him.
1343
00:52:44.420 --> 00:52:44.679
Okay.
1344
00:52:44.780 --> 00:52:46.599
So I just had him on and we, he wrote
1345
00:52:46.619 --> 00:52:48.630
a post about the day he became a millionaire and,
1346
00:52:48.639 --> 00:52:50.780
you know, he bought like a Ferrari or Lamborghini and.
1347
00:52:50.760 --> 00:52:51.280
Some other things.
1348
00:52:51.300 --> 00:52:54.119
And it was interesting because you, you talk about this too.
1349
00:52:54.199 --> 00:52:55.960
I think it was a solo episode about when you
1350
00:52:56.000 --> 00:52:58.699
went out and bought a Jaguar and, and people seem
1351
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:02.239
to like that part with DHH was interesting. I got
1352
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.460
emails and texts about like, oh, I liked when you
1353
00:53:04.500 --> 00:53:06.650
talked about the money. And so I'm like, well, this
1354
00:53:06.969 --> 00:53:10.889
happened to you. No, as far as too, you became
1355
00:53:11.070 --> 00:53:12.610
kind of, I don't know how much money you make.
1356
00:53:12.630 --> 00:53:15.050
I know you said you pay yourself market rates. And
1357
00:53:15.070 --> 00:53:18.380
I was curious to know what market rate means. And
1358
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:19.780
so you can answer that if you want. But in
1359
00:53:19.820 --> 00:53:20.940
addition to that, you said you went out.
1360
00:53:20.860 --> 00:53:23.690
And bought a Jaguar and and why it was a
1361
00:53:23.750 --> 00:53:24.690
horrible decision.
1362
00:53:24.809 --> 00:53:27.369
And so I think people who are striving to improve some,
1363
00:53:27.449 --> 00:53:29.230
one of the things they're looking for is, is to
1364
00:53:29.289 --> 00:53:33.119
make more money. And, uh, for, so when you ask
1365
00:53:33.139 --> 00:53:35.980
somebody who is kind of, you're never fully there as
1366
00:53:36.039 --> 00:53:38.480
a leader and you're, you're progressing, you're never there, but
1367
00:53:38.940 --> 00:53:40.840
you know, if you, you make enough disposal where you
1368
00:53:40.880 --> 00:53:43.739
can blow money on an expensive car, then you're, you're
1369
00:53:43.780 --> 00:53:46.849
kind of financially, you're in a better position. So, Talk
1370
00:53:46.869 --> 00:53:49.449
to me about why that was a mistake. Also, what
1371
00:53:49.530 --> 00:53:52.989
market rate is for the job that you do at Sumo.
1372
00:53:53.130 --> 00:53:57.989
I'm curious, especially when you can spend $ 1. 5 million on Sumo.com.
1373
00:53:58.150 --> 00:53:58.610
Yeah, go ahead.
1374
00:53:59.489 --> 00:54:02.550
So whether you like Trump or not, his book, Art
1375
00:54:02.570 --> 00:54:04.159
of the Deal, is actually surprisingly good.
1376
00:54:04.179 --> 00:54:06.239
I don't know if he wrote it or whatnot.
1377
00:54:06.280 --> 00:54:08.179
Yeah, he had a ghostwriter. Right, yeah.
1378
00:54:08.440 --> 00:54:10.900
But the actual content on negotiating is really good. And
1379
00:54:11.059 --> 00:54:12.639
what he does in his book, and I just want
1380
00:54:12.659 --> 00:54:14.239
to finish this with the Sumo part because it is
1381
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:17.190
actually very interesting. is that he made a lot of
1382
00:54:17.230 --> 00:54:20.170
his money on deals that no one else wanted, and
1383
00:54:20.190 --> 00:54:22.349
then he figured out ways to be creative about it.
1384
00:54:23.639 --> 00:54:26.159
And so Sumo.com literally has gotten hit up for the
1385
00:54:26.179 --> 00:54:28.039
past seven years to get sold, but for some reason
1386
00:54:28.079 --> 00:54:30.000
we were able to do it. So it was hard
1387
00:54:30.019 --> 00:54:31.760
to get, and we got creative. And so the way
1388
00:54:31.800 --> 00:54:34.949
we actually finally did it was I gave him two
1389
00:54:34.989 --> 00:54:37.630
weeks to accept my offer, and I offered him a
1390
00:54:37.670 --> 00:54:41.030
shit ton of money, but financially we pay it out
1391
00:54:41.050 --> 00:54:46.039
over five years. So I only pay $ 16, 666 a month.
1392
00:54:46.760 --> 00:54:49.659
And so when you actually annual amortize the amounts over
1393
00:54:49.679 --> 00:54:52.340
a monthly basis over five years, it's actually not that
1394
00:54:52.530 --> 00:54:54.429
big of a percentage of our revenue. And it's not
1395
00:54:54.469 --> 00:54:56.570
that painful. One in a million, half a million up front, dude,
1396
00:54:56.590 --> 00:54:59.469
I would, I'd probably have to come sleep on your floor, right?
1397
00:54:59.489 --> 00:55:02.769
I'm not that rich. And so it's the creative part
1398
00:55:02.789 --> 00:55:06.510
actually is what made it really available for us. Now,
1399
00:55:07.300 --> 00:55:09.239
in terms of my salary, I make very low six figures.
1400
00:55:09.980 --> 00:55:10.179
Okay.
1401
00:55:10.760 --> 00:55:12.360
If I were to go be a VP of marketing
1402
00:55:12.719 --> 00:55:14.989
or like director of marketing, probably VP or something of
1403
00:55:15.050 --> 00:55:17.969
marketing or something like that, I'd probably be making somewhere
1404
00:55:18.230 --> 00:55:20.510
with equity and all that kind of stuff all in yearly,
1405
00:55:20.550 --> 00:55:21.030
probably 300 to 400.
1406
00:55:21.010 --> 00:55:21.719
Yeah.
1407
00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:23.059
Okay.
1408
00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:23.480
Maybe five.
1409
00:55:24.000 --> 00:55:28.139
But how many streams of revenue do you have personally? I,
1410
00:55:29.070 --> 00:55:29.369
you know.
1411
00:55:29.289 --> 00:55:31.329
What, I've tried a lot of stock investing and I
1412
00:55:31.349 --> 00:55:33.019
can tell you more about all of where my money is.
1413
00:55:33.050 --> 00:55:35.750
I have no problem sharing the majority of it. But
1414
00:55:35.769 --> 00:55:37.820
what I've realized is that most people, if you have
1415
00:55:37.840 --> 00:55:41.739
a traditional day job, just go buy real estate. If
1416
00:55:41.760 --> 00:55:44.460
you're like my stepfather, my mother, he's an engineer, she's
1417
00:55:44.500 --> 00:55:47.570
a nurse. You can't turn the dial to make more money.
1418
00:55:49.130 --> 00:55:49.269
Right?
1419
00:55:49.309 --> 00:55:51.989
Your boss says this is how much you're going to make.
1420
00:55:52.010 --> 00:55:53.369
The cool thing about running your own company to some
1421
00:55:53.389 --> 00:55:55.530
extent is that you can turn the dial, grow your business,
1422
00:55:55.570 --> 00:55:57.710
make more money. And so real estate is a way
1423
00:55:57.750 --> 00:56:00.349
that hopefully if it, you know, the market stays good,
1424
00:56:00.409 --> 00:56:02.150
which it's, it's not guaranteed.
1425
00:56:02.170 --> 00:56:04.449
Uh, you can do, you know, make money in that.
1426
00:56:05.679 --> 00:56:07.380
But what I've realized is that I've tried to do
1427
00:56:07.409 --> 00:56:09.420
stocks and I'm literally like the shittiest stock picker in
1428
00:56:09.440 --> 00:56:11.699
the world. Everyone always brags like, Oh yeah, I made
1429
00:56:11.719 --> 00:56:14.400
money in Apple. And I'm like, dude, I can't make
1430
00:56:14.420 --> 00:56:16.219
money in shit. No matter what I buy, it goes down.
1431
00:56:17.010 --> 00:56:20.409
But the lesson learned from me is that two things.
1432
00:56:20.449 --> 00:56:24.050
Number one, just go make money where I know. What
1433
00:56:24.070 --> 00:56:26.159
do I know really well? How to run online companies.
1434
00:56:26.389 --> 00:56:28.800
That is really my specialty. So I don't try to
1435
00:56:28.840 --> 00:56:30.039
make a lot of money in real estate. I try
1436
00:56:30.059 --> 00:56:31.380
to make a shit ton of money in the internet
1437
00:56:31.420 --> 00:56:33.139
world and then I could buy whatever real estate I
1438
00:56:33.179 --> 00:56:36.159
want because there's a lot of other people who spend
1439
00:56:36.179 --> 00:56:38.079
their eight hours a day doing real estate and I
1440
00:56:38.139 --> 00:56:41.260
probably won't be beating them. The second thing is that
1441
00:56:41.639 --> 00:56:43.099
if you're not gonna be an expert in it, just
1442
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:45.559
go give your money to the other experts in those places.
1443
00:56:46.300 --> 00:56:49.190
So I use piercestreet.com where you can actually invest in
1444
00:56:49.230 --> 00:56:51.789
real estate because experts go and buy it and you
1445
00:56:51.809 --> 00:56:54.989
just give them the capital. Or I buy index funds,
1446
00:56:55.010 --> 00:56:57.750
which was Warren Buffett's highest recommendation. And maybe he's trying
1447
00:56:57.769 --> 00:57:00.929
to hold us all back from beating him. But there's
1448
00:57:00.949 --> 00:57:02.750
something there where the guy's like, look, if you look
1449
00:57:02.769 --> 00:57:05.050
at index funds, it's the only thing that's consistently performing
1450
00:57:05.090 --> 00:57:07.329
versus trying to pick stocks. And so then I just
1451
00:57:07.369 --> 00:57:11.159
buy Vanguard and some Schwab like dividend and large cap
1452
00:57:11.199 --> 00:57:12.800
and S & P index funds. And I try not
1453
00:57:12.820 --> 00:57:15.650
to worry about it. Because I'm actually more conservative once
1454
00:57:15.710 --> 00:57:17.570
I– this is something I noticed from a lot of entrepreneurs.
1455
00:57:18.050 --> 00:57:21.050
They're actually very conservative with the money they make. With
1456
00:57:21.090 --> 00:57:22.860
their business, they're like, oh, I spend X, I make
1457
00:57:23.050 --> 00:57:23.639
X plus five.
1458
00:57:23.699 --> 00:57:24.230
Sure, let's do it.
1459
00:57:24.559 --> 00:57:26.659
But once they've gotten the money, they're like, oh, protect it.
1460
00:57:27.380 --> 00:57:28.420
Like I just want to– I don't want to mess
1461
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.320
with it. And I'm kind of in that mindset where– One,
1462
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:33.880
focus and make money where your sweet spot is. So
1463
00:57:34.059 --> 00:57:35.119
if you have a day job and it could be
1464
00:57:35.139 --> 00:57:36.780
real estate, if it's that, if it's a business, go
1465
00:57:36.960 --> 00:57:38.579
do that. If it's in stocks, go do that. I
1466
00:57:38.579 --> 00:57:40.360
don't care what it is, but go allocate your time
1467
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:42.929
around that. And then the other part, it's like, try to,
1468
00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:46.260
for me, I just don't want to be distracted. Like
1469
00:57:46.320 --> 00:57:48.619
I had this crazy thing, not crazy, but three years ago,
1470
00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:49.900
I started getting into real estate and I wanted to
1471
00:57:49.920 --> 00:57:52.500
buy a bunch of properties. And so I was, I
1472
00:57:52.539 --> 00:57:54.619
spent probably half a day for six months looking at
1473
00:57:54.659 --> 00:57:58.329
real estate all day. And then at the end of
1474
00:57:58.349 --> 00:58:00.510
the six months, I was like, well, let me see
1475
00:58:00.550 --> 00:58:03.269
what my returns look like. So I went to a
1476
00:58:03.289 --> 00:58:06.349
spreadsheet and I said, all right, well, if I actually
1477
00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:08.489
buy this house and I Airbnb it or long-term rental,
1478
00:58:08.750 --> 00:58:09.929
how much will I make at the end of the year?
1479
00:58:10.650 --> 00:58:12.750
Excluding appreciation. It was $ 10, 000.
1480
00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:16.639
And I said, well, shit, man, you're spending 20 hours
1481
00:58:16.679 --> 00:58:20.539
a week minimum times 50 weeks to make $ 10, 000?
1482
00:58:20.380 --> 00:58:20.519
Yeah.
1483
00:58:22.679 --> 00:58:25.519
And, and then I said, well, you know, with AppSumo
1484
00:58:25.619 --> 00:58:28.800
or Sumo, or maybe a new product line with our business, well,
1485
00:58:29.079 --> 00:58:31.320
I can make that in a day. So why the
1486
00:58:31.360 --> 00:58:33.139
fuck am I not spending all day on Sumo stuff,
1487
00:58:33.159 --> 00:58:36.150
which is my, which works already. And I'm, it's my
1488
00:58:36.170 --> 00:58:39.909
advantage versus the disadvantage. And so that's kind of where
1489
00:58:39.929 --> 00:58:42.090
I've started getting the mindset financially, where I don't want
1490
00:58:42.110 --> 00:58:44.070
to be distracted. And I want to just focus on
1491
00:58:44.090 --> 00:58:45.909
what I already understand really well and what works for me.
1492
00:58:45.929 --> 00:58:48.510
So there's one place where I make money. And then
1493
00:58:48.530 --> 00:58:50.010
there's one thing where it's like, it's not where I'm
1494
00:58:50.030 --> 00:58:51.130
going to be making money. So I don't want to
1495
00:58:51.170 --> 00:58:51.829
be distracted with that.
1496
00:58:52.489 --> 00:58:55.550
So all the– like when you guys make profits though,
1497
00:58:55.570 --> 00:58:57.250
do you just invest it straight back into the business?
1498
00:58:57.269 --> 00:58:58.860
You're not putting any of that into your pocket in
1499
00:58:58.920 --> 00:59:00.639
addition to the salary you take?
1500
00:59:01.739 --> 00:59:04.519
So for the first five years of the company, we
1501
00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:06.650
spend– number one, we try to put as much money
1502
00:59:06.670 --> 00:59:11.300
as possible into our advertising, hiring, office work. acquisition, whatever
1503
00:59:11.320 --> 00:59:13.400
we can do. I love, I like the Amazon model.
1504
00:59:13.760 --> 00:59:16.039
I basically, my simple mantra is I want next year
1505
00:59:16.059 --> 00:59:19.219
to be better than this year. And I just continually
1506
00:59:19.239 --> 00:59:20.539
think that I want next year to be better than
1507
00:59:20.559 --> 00:59:22.199
this year. So I'd rather spend all my money this year,
1508
00:59:22.280 --> 00:59:24.340
plus no taxes. If I spend it all this year,
1509
00:59:25.449 --> 00:59:28.510
So we buy furniture or we spend ads or we
1510
00:59:28.570 --> 00:59:30.150
hire more people or we pay them more money or
1511
00:59:31.369 --> 00:59:33.230
we go on cool trips, whatever it is so that
1512
00:59:33.429 --> 00:59:33.969
people are happy.
1513
00:59:33.989 --> 00:59:35.889
And we invest this year. So next year is bigger.
1514
00:59:35.909 --> 00:59:38.269
Uh, only in the past two years have I actually
1515
00:59:38.289 --> 00:59:40.750
started paying like, uh, everyone gets a bonus in the
1516
00:59:40.789 --> 00:59:44.170
company or profit share. Everyone gets profit share. So only
1517
00:59:44.190 --> 00:59:45.829
in the past two years have I really started making, uh,
1518
00:59:47.170 --> 00:59:50.730
more money. And the way that it's been interesting, Ryan,
1519
00:59:51.190 --> 00:59:52.909
I actually ran the numbers cause I was giving a
1520
00:59:52.929 --> 00:59:56.539
presentation and If I would have stayed at Intel and
1521
00:59:56.639 --> 01:00:00.519
stayed at my corporate job and gotten the normal 5%
1522
01:00:00.519 --> 01:00:04.780
to 7% raises each year, my net worth would have
1523
01:00:04.820 --> 01:00:08.699
actually been higher than running my own companies, except in
1524
01:00:08.719 --> 01:00:11.920
the last few years. Because I think people think once
1525
01:00:11.940 --> 01:00:13.659
you have a company that's making all this money, like, oh,
1526
01:00:13.679 --> 01:00:16.300
you're probably making a shit. It's like, actually, if you
1527
01:00:16.320 --> 01:00:18.840
stay corporate and you get a consistent paycheck, which it's
1528
01:00:18.880 --> 01:00:22.989
not consistent sometimes with running a company, then I would
1529
01:00:23.010 --> 01:00:27.469
have actually almost made more But the part where I'm
1530
01:00:27.510 --> 01:00:29.670
actually now, it's made a lot of money the past
1531
01:00:29.690 --> 01:00:31.630
few years. It's easier to be like, well, okay, it
1532
01:00:31.670 --> 01:00:33.219
finally did work out seven years later.
1533
01:00:34.320 --> 01:00:37.460
What do you think, like, it's a weird question, but
1534
01:00:37.500 --> 01:00:42.099
like happiness-wise, happiness-wise, if you were on that, you're still
1535
01:00:42.159 --> 01:00:45.710
on that track until Facebook, whatever it may be.
1536
01:00:45.909 --> 01:00:48.250
Facebook's been different. I think you would have like $ 100
1537
01:00:47.949 --> 01:00:48.329
million now.
1538
01:00:49.099 --> 01:00:51.820
But how would have been different if you just sort
1539
01:00:51.860 --> 01:00:53.570
of stayed as I think you called yourself a cubicle
1540
01:00:53.610 --> 01:00:57.690
monkey at Intel and net worth wise, you would have
1541
01:00:57.710 --> 01:01:00.849
been in a similar spot or even better as minus
1542
01:01:00.869 --> 01:01:03.920
the last few years. But I'm thinking like reason I
1543
01:01:03.940 --> 01:01:05.440
say this because I speak to people who are like
1544
01:01:05.440 --> 01:01:10.510
65 years old. And they're kind of getting into like
1545
01:01:10.769 --> 01:01:13.590
how happy they are now because they don't have to
1546
01:01:13.659 --> 01:01:16.699
do some of the stuff that a cubicle monkey might
1547
01:01:17.099 --> 01:01:20.199
do as they progress within that company. And that's kind
1548
01:01:20.219 --> 01:01:23.179
of sad to me when I hear that, that it
1549
01:01:23.219 --> 01:01:25.579
shouldn't be happy now. It should have been happy like
1550
01:01:25.579 --> 01:01:27.199
25 years, 30.
1551
01:01:27.199 --> 01:01:28.000
Yeah, you know what I mean?
1552
01:01:28.039 --> 01:01:31.059
And so I'm curious to hear your thoughts on that
1553
01:01:31.099 --> 01:01:33.800
because it's not necessarily the money as we can talk
1554
01:01:33.840 --> 01:01:36.739
about with the Jaguar too, but what you think it
1555
01:01:36.760 --> 01:01:37.380
would have been like.
1556
01:01:38.909 --> 01:01:40.949
Well, being rich is awesome. I'd rather be rich and
1557
01:01:40.989 --> 01:01:42.269
unhappy than poor and unhappy.
1558
01:01:42.289 --> 01:01:45.929
And I hate when rich people talk because it's like, well,
1559
01:01:46.190 --> 01:01:47.269
fuck you, man. I'm not rich.
1560
01:01:47.329 --> 01:01:48.630
And so it's easy for you to say, well, yeah,
1561
01:01:48.670 --> 01:01:50.409
once you have money, it's great. You know, it's like
1562
01:01:50.969 --> 01:01:52.889
I try to understand it from just the people who
1563
01:01:52.929 --> 01:01:55.239
don't have money and also people who do have money's perspective.
1564
01:01:57.500 --> 01:02:00.079
I knew I didn't want to work for someone else
1565
01:02:00.539 --> 01:02:04.309
and or they just fired me. Like I've applied for jobs, man.
1566
01:02:04.329 --> 01:02:06.429
Like Google rejected me twice. I didn't know how to
1567
01:02:06.469 --> 01:02:08.250
do division. Like they had me do division on a
1568
01:02:08.289 --> 01:02:10.170
board and I literally couldn't do it. And I was like,
1569
01:02:10.570 --> 01:02:12.429
I'm not gonna get the job, huh? He's like, probably not.
1570
01:02:12.829 --> 01:02:13.809
I was like, okay, got it.
1571
01:02:15.210 --> 01:02:17.489
And I don't think everyone wants to run their own company.
1572
01:02:17.739 --> 01:02:18.889
It's mostly a shitty thing.
1573
01:02:20.610 --> 01:02:22.780
And I talked to an assistant, I was hiring an assistant.
1574
01:02:23.239 --> 01:02:27.219
And so I was interviewing someone today and she actually,
1575
01:02:27.360 --> 01:02:29.260
she had, she asked for a pretty high hourly, 50
1576
01:02:29.260 --> 01:02:30.940
bucks an hour, which I was like, good for you
1577
01:02:30.980 --> 01:02:32.179
for asking for that. It doesn't mean I'm going to
1578
01:02:32.199 --> 01:02:35.050
pay it. But I like that you're, you know, good
1579
01:02:35.090 --> 01:02:36.659
people don't ask for cheap rates.
1580
01:02:36.679 --> 01:02:38.599
Yeah. That's something I've noticed.
1581
01:02:38.619 --> 01:02:41.400
If I'm really, if someone's really great and they're accepting
1582
01:02:41.440 --> 01:02:42.329
a shitty rate, what's wrong?
1583
01:02:42.449 --> 01:02:43.489
Something's wrong. Yeah.
1584
01:02:44.050 --> 01:02:45.869
Because think about yourself. Most of us think we're great.
1585
01:02:45.889 --> 01:02:47.989
That's probably why we're listening to your podcast. And so
1586
01:02:48.329 --> 01:02:50.389
we wouldn't give ourselves up for cheap. So why would
1587
01:02:50.409 --> 01:02:51.969
you hire someone thinking that they're going to be cheap?
1588
01:02:52.139 --> 01:02:54.030
And that's something I've changed my perspective on over the years.
1589
01:02:55.059 --> 01:02:56.860
But staying at those companies, I don't think is a
1590
01:02:56.920 --> 01:02:59.679
bad thing. But I was hiring my assistant and I said, well,
1591
01:02:59.699 --> 01:03:01.780
why don't you just train and hire other assistants?
1592
01:03:01.800 --> 01:03:04.320
Because it's very hard to find great assistants. Everyone sucks.
1593
01:03:05.340 --> 01:03:07.739
And, you know, instead of you having to work at all,
1594
01:03:07.880 --> 01:03:09.599
you just hire them and they do the work. So
1595
01:03:10.000 --> 01:03:11.940
people can scale businesses. It's only two ways you scale
1596
01:03:11.960 --> 01:03:16.170
a business, technology or people. And I was telling her, yeah,
1597
01:03:16.190 --> 01:03:20.010
just go train people. And you are the kind of manager, trainer, coach.
1598
01:03:20.690 --> 01:03:22.630
And you can sell courses or you can just like
1599
01:03:22.750 --> 01:03:24.130
I go to you and you give me people and
1600
01:03:24.150 --> 01:03:25.900
everyone you give me is amazing. And you're like the
1601
01:03:25.960 --> 01:03:28.079
high end assistant whisperer.
1602
01:03:28.099 --> 01:03:29.860
And at the end of the day, she didn't want
1603
01:03:29.880 --> 01:03:31.119
to do that. She's fine.
1604
01:03:31.159 --> 01:03:34.000
And I don't know if she can think bigger. And
1605
01:03:34.019 --> 01:03:36.909
I'm not insulting her whatsoever. I'm actually really impressed with her.
1606
01:03:37.449 --> 01:03:38.769
But I don't know if she can either think bigger
1607
01:03:38.889 --> 01:03:41.050
or maybe the confidence or maybe she's just not interested
1608
01:03:41.090 --> 01:03:43.289
in having to deal with people because there's always problems
1609
01:03:43.309 --> 01:03:46.340
with running a company. I just knew that being in
1610
01:03:46.610 --> 01:03:49.050
those companies wasn't going to work for me. But the
1611
01:03:49.150 --> 01:03:50.989
most surprising thing I would say that people are probably
1612
01:03:51.389 --> 01:03:53.349
more shocked when I say, I would love to be
1613
01:03:53.389 --> 01:03:55.409
an employee somewhere or a teammate somewhere.
1614
01:03:55.559 --> 01:03:56.860
I would actually go work a job right now.
1615
01:03:57.360 --> 01:03:57.659
Really?
1616
01:03:58.280 --> 01:03:58.500
Yeah.
1617
01:03:58.579 --> 01:03:59.820
Like where would you want to work?
1618
01:04:00.440 --> 01:04:02.440
Exactly. But there's conditions.
1619
01:04:03.030 --> 01:04:03.250
Okay.
1620
01:04:03.710 --> 01:04:05.409
And I would, I would a hundred percent go work somewhere.
1621
01:04:05.849 --> 01:04:07.570
Number one, I want to get paid the same amount
1622
01:04:07.590 --> 01:04:08.630
I get paid now, which.
1623
01:04:08.550 --> 01:04:10.489
Is not, I get my base plus we have our
1624
01:04:10.530 --> 01:04:11.929
profit share at the end of the year. So I
1625
01:04:11.969 --> 01:04:14.559
would want like a good amount of money. Number two,
1626
01:04:14.659 --> 01:04:16.480
I'd want to be able to learn from someone. So
1627
01:04:16.519 --> 01:04:18.039
I need to have someone there that can teach me.
1628
01:04:18.739 --> 01:04:20.079
Number three, I would want to work on something that
1629
01:04:20.099 --> 01:04:22.000
I'm interested in. Like, I'm like, this is a really
1630
01:04:22.039 --> 01:04:27.050
great product that I'm really excited about. Number four, would
1631
01:04:27.070 --> 01:04:29.860
be the flexibility of working from home. Or like this morning,
1632
01:04:29.889 --> 01:04:32.119
I had a meeting on a boat. Me and this
1633
01:04:32.159 --> 01:04:33.599
guy that were in a company, we went on his
1634
01:04:33.639 --> 01:04:34.800
boat and we just talked about business.
1635
01:04:35.320 --> 01:04:37.340
Which some people are like, well, you're not helping the company.
1636
01:04:37.360 --> 01:04:38.880
And I said, well, most times you don't help the
1637
01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:42.570
company being in the office. And if I could have
1638
01:04:42.590 --> 01:04:46.289
all those things, fuck yeah, I would go work somewhere else. Dude,
1639
01:04:46.329 --> 01:04:48.750
just let me know the job. It doesn't mean I'm
1640
01:04:48.789 --> 01:04:50.210
going to look for them because I get those things
1641
01:04:50.309 --> 01:04:53.420
through Sumo. But I think what people kind of neglect
1642
01:04:53.460 --> 01:04:54.780
is they think you just run a company and it's
1643
01:04:54.800 --> 01:04:57.599
just easier or you can, or you get a bunch
1644
01:04:57.619 --> 01:05:00.400
of money and like it's easier and it doesn't. Well,
1645
01:05:00.460 --> 01:05:01.699
it gets easier in some ways when you get a
1646
01:05:01.699 --> 01:05:04.440
bunch of money, but you're still might be an unhappy person.
1647
01:05:04.719 --> 01:05:06.880
It doesn't magically, you don't magically remember when I got
1648
01:05:06.900 --> 01:05:08.780
my first million, I think no one gave me a
1649
01:05:08.780 --> 01:05:09.360
fucking sticker.
1650
01:05:10.840 --> 01:05:11.579
There's no stickers.
1651
01:05:12.519 --> 01:05:16.090
And so overall, I don't think being working for someone
1652
01:05:16.360 --> 01:05:18.130
is a bad thing. I think if you're learning, you're
1653
01:05:18.150 --> 01:05:19.869
around great people, you're working on something that matters, you're
1654
01:05:19.889 --> 01:05:22.769
getting paid really well. Shit, sometimes I'd rather be the
1655
01:05:22.849 --> 01:05:26.429
employee or the teammate than having to deal with lawsuits.
1656
01:05:26.449 --> 01:05:32.679
We had three this week. Dude, that's the thing. Crazy stuff.
1657
01:05:32.800 --> 01:05:34.920
One of our competitors didn't like that we said that
1658
01:05:34.940 --> 01:05:37.579
we're cheaper than them. So they think we're defaming them.
1659
01:05:37.880 --> 01:05:40.519
That's a cease and desist. One lady thinks that we
1660
01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:42.099
cost her a bunch of money. I'm like, you don't
1661
01:05:42.119 --> 01:05:46.909
even make any money. Another one is one of our customers.
1662
01:05:47.590 --> 01:05:50.840
Something happened between them and they came to us. And
1663
01:05:50.860 --> 01:05:52.579
that's just this, that's in the past two weeks, dude.
1664
01:05:53.139 --> 01:05:54.840
Wow. Wow.
1665
01:05:54.860 --> 01:05:56.550
Like I don't want, I don't want our teammates dealing
1666
01:05:56.570 --> 01:05:58.929
with that. I want them focusing and being happy and
1667
01:05:59.090 --> 01:06:01.409
enjoying that. So there are good, there are good and bad.
1668
01:06:01.869 --> 01:06:02.369
I'm not trying to.
1669
01:06:03.389 --> 01:06:05.690
Be a diatribe or ramble about it. I'm just saying
1670
01:06:05.730 --> 01:06:07.929
that like people should just evaluate where they really want
1671
01:06:07.949 --> 01:06:10.719
to go in the next three, five years very clearly
1672
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:13.860
and think about what type of opportunities help them get there.
1673
01:06:14.039 --> 01:06:15.360
That, that's really the short answer.
1674
01:06:15.800 --> 01:06:17.579
Uh, by the way, we blocked a half an hour
1675
01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:19.599
on the calendar. It's been over an hour. Uh, do
1676
01:06:19.940 --> 01:06:22.280
you have to go or I have a, I mean, what?
1677
01:06:22.940 --> 01:06:24.739
Kinda had a thing at three and I told the
1678
01:06:24.760 --> 01:06:26.059
guy I'd call him a little bit and I got
1679
01:06:26.079 --> 01:06:26.940
a thing at four.
1680
01:06:27.300 --> 01:06:28.460
See if he is not going to hate me if
1681
01:06:28.519 --> 01:06:29.199
I go a little late.
1682
01:06:30.019 --> 01:06:31.800
Well, the only reason I said that is because what
1683
01:06:32.019 --> 01:06:35.369
you're talking about is like vision. And that's what it
1684
01:06:35.409 --> 01:06:37.429
made me think of when you, when you mentioned having
1685
01:06:37.469 --> 01:06:40.329
a plan that that's, that's further than just this week
1686
01:06:40.449 --> 01:06:44.130
or this, even this year. And vision's an interesting word.
1687
01:06:44.269 --> 01:06:47.349
I mean, there's, there's, there's a lot written about that.
1688
01:06:47.530 --> 01:06:50.219
And you've talked about having that vision and it starts
1689
01:06:50.239 --> 01:06:52.460
sounding almost like at times can be woo woo with,
1690
01:06:52.539 --> 01:06:54.119
with vision type talk, but I.
1691
01:06:54.099 --> 01:06:55.679
Know it's, it seems to be a big deal for you.
1692
01:06:56.219 --> 01:07:00.090
What, what is it about having a distinct clear vision
1693
01:07:00.130 --> 01:07:02.650
that has helped you and how could it help other people?
1694
01:07:02.710 --> 01:07:05.210
And think of like right now I'm doing the podcast
1695
01:07:05.829 --> 01:07:08.269
editor thing. There's going to be like a music track
1696
01:07:08.309 --> 01:07:10.769
that starts like right as your answer starts and it's
1697
01:07:10.789 --> 01:07:13.269
going to be playing behind this vision type talk.
1698
01:07:13.329 --> 01:07:13.869
So go ahead.
1699
01:07:15.610 --> 01:07:17.550
It's gotta be, let's make it really proof through though.
1700
01:07:17.719 --> 01:07:19.739
Make it super like, Oh yeah, feel the energy.
1701
01:07:19.780 --> 01:07:22.320
It's going to be the title of the track will
1702
01:07:22.340 --> 01:07:27.489
be like inspiration and So here's Noah Kagan, inspirational music
1703
01:07:27.530 --> 01:07:29.650
behind and vision.
1704
01:07:29.869 --> 01:07:30.010
Yeah.
1705
01:07:30.710 --> 01:07:34.289
So in my twenties, I'm 35 in my twenties. I
1706
01:07:34.309 --> 01:07:36.530
thought anyone who talked about vision or mission was full
1707
01:07:36.570 --> 01:07:38.460
of shit. And every time they started talking about it,
1708
01:07:38.480 --> 01:07:40.119
I just zoned out like.
1709
01:07:40.280 --> 01:07:42.860
Oh yeah, I've got a vision of like this. And
1710
01:07:42.880 --> 01:07:44.119
then I'm like, can you just shut up?
1711
01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:44.559
I'm here.
1712
01:07:44.619 --> 01:07:45.280
I'm here working.
1713
01:07:45.800 --> 01:07:47.500
I'm like busy with shit. I'm trying to make stuff happen.
1714
01:07:47.519 --> 01:07:52.139
And you're just talking about bullshit. But yeah, is I've
1715
01:07:52.159 --> 01:07:53.980
gotten older. And I think what I've realized is in
1716
01:07:54.019 --> 01:07:56.179
your twenties, you just work. And then in your thirties,
1717
01:07:56.199 --> 01:07:58.260
you work smarter. And in your forties and older, you're
1718
01:07:58.280 --> 01:08:03.190
trying to think about retirement and staying alive. And as
1719
01:08:03.230 --> 01:08:05.510
I've gotten older, I realized that the most successful people
1720
01:08:05.710 --> 01:08:08.690
I admire had a destination they were trying to go to.
1721
01:08:08.849 --> 01:08:10.789
And I always use analogy because everyone can understand it
1722
01:08:10.929 --> 01:08:12.349
is that if you were trying to go again, back
1723
01:08:12.389 --> 01:08:14.599
to Mexico, cause it's great. Cabo San Lucas, let's say,
1724
01:08:15.119 --> 01:08:18.819
or Tulum, you wouldn't just start driving and You're like,
1725
01:08:18.859 --> 01:08:21.729
Mexico's south. I'll just fucking go south and hopefully we'll
1726
01:08:21.770 --> 01:08:24.649
get there. We'll take that raft over, smoke some weed
1727
01:08:24.810 --> 01:08:26.609
and finally be at the destination. No, you'd probably look
1728
01:08:26.630 --> 01:08:28.470
at a damn map and you say, I want to
1729
01:08:28.529 --> 01:08:30.689
go to Tulum. How the hell am I going to
1730
01:08:30.789 --> 01:08:31.170
get there?
1731
01:08:31.390 --> 01:08:32.250
That's my vision.
1732
01:08:32.489 --> 01:08:35.630
So a vision, it's more about how does it, you
1733
01:08:35.670 --> 01:08:38.579
create a guiding principle or a guiding destination for where
1734
01:08:38.619 --> 01:08:40.279
you want to go. Otherwise you have no idea where
1735
01:08:40.300 --> 01:08:43.640
you're going to end up. And so I've just experienced it.
1736
01:08:43.760 --> 01:08:45.300
I've seen it from the people that I admire. I've
1737
01:08:45.340 --> 01:08:48.579
experienced it myself. And so now, Sometimes I don't think
1738
01:08:48.600 --> 01:08:50.060
it has to be a crystal clear vision. I think
1739
01:08:50.100 --> 01:08:51.260
if you say, hey, well, I know I want to
1740
01:08:51.279 --> 01:08:53.640
go south to Mexico. I'm not sure where in Mexico.
1741
01:08:54.000 --> 01:08:55.770
Then I think it's better to start driving than sit
1742
01:08:55.810 --> 01:08:57.770
on your ass and wait around forever to finally figure
1743
01:08:57.810 --> 01:08:58.149
out where.
1744
01:08:59.720 --> 01:09:00.800
But, and there's trade-offs to that.
1745
01:09:00.810 --> 01:09:04.220
That's a, uh, I think that the bigger thing that
1746
01:09:04.279 --> 01:09:05.899
a bit more important thing is take the time, go
1747
01:09:06.100 --> 01:09:07.920
for walks with wives or get a wife or get
1748
01:09:07.960 --> 01:09:10.800
a husband or get a dog or go alone and
1749
01:09:10.819 --> 01:09:12.579
take time to think about where is that destination you
1750
01:09:12.619 --> 01:09:14.939
want to end up in some period of time. Because frankly,
1751
01:09:14.960 --> 01:09:18.350
what I've realized through business and life personally, is that
1752
01:09:18.399 --> 01:09:20.760
it's easy to get what you want when you know
1753
01:09:20.800 --> 01:09:24.819
what you want. And that's just what I've realized. If
1754
01:09:24.880 --> 01:09:27.020
I say, hey, go make $ 1, 000 in your course, and
1755
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:29.539
you're like, hey, my goal is to make $ 1, 000 or $ 10, 000
1756
01:09:28.979 --> 01:09:31.079
or $ 100, 000 in the course, it's kind of a little
1757
01:09:31.100 --> 01:09:32.720
bit easier then to say, well, how would I make $ 100, 000
1758
01:09:32.560 --> 01:09:36.039
in my course? And that's actually, if we talk about leadership,
1759
01:09:36.720 --> 01:09:39.350
most of the times in leadership, if I say $ 100, 000,
1760
01:09:38.510 --> 01:09:40.010
you should be like, well, how could I make a million?
1761
01:09:40.489 --> 01:09:42.409
And then you'll end up at $ 500, 000 and still be
1762
01:09:42.569 --> 01:09:44.609
ahead of where you thought you would even be. But
1763
01:09:44.649 --> 01:09:46.369
point being is that like have some vision where that
1764
01:09:46.409 --> 01:09:50.350
course could be and then then planning it and doing
1765
01:09:50.369 --> 01:09:53.000
the steps to get it cake. And so it's just
1766
01:09:53.020 --> 01:09:55.939
I've changed my change, my perspective on that over the years.
1767
01:09:55.960 --> 01:09:57.739
I used to just kind of go and, you know,
1768
01:09:57.760 --> 01:09:59.420
I'm just doing it. And I think there's some value
1769
01:09:59.460 --> 01:10:01.619
in that. But I think having a better clear destination
1770
01:10:02.960 --> 01:10:04.529
helps you get there in a more effective way.
1771
01:10:06.079 --> 01:10:06.819
This is awesome, man.
1772
01:10:07.220 --> 01:10:08.720
Uh, would you be cool with doing a round two
1773
01:10:08.760 --> 01:10:10.859
somewhere later? I'll send you more taco gift card, taco
1774
01:10:10.880 --> 01:10:11.779
deli gift cards.
1775
01:10:12.159 --> 01:10:14.020
Dude, I'm so cheap by the way. Like you sent
1776
01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:14.960
me a $ 20 taco deli gift.
1777
01:10:15.020 --> 01:10:16.680
I kind of felt cheap when I did that. I'm like,
1778
01:10:16.739 --> 01:10:19.239
I'm like, it should have been like a thousand dollars
1779
01:10:19.279 --> 01:10:22.659
worth of tacos. And I said 20 bucks.
1780
01:10:23.050 --> 01:10:24.970
No, man, this is fun for me. This gives me energy.
1781
01:10:25.109 --> 01:10:27.750
Like we talk when I, and I want to hear
1782
01:10:27.770 --> 01:10:29.149
your story before I go. And I do have to
1783
01:10:29.170 --> 01:10:30.829
get going. Cause I told you at the beginning, I
1784
01:10:30.829 --> 01:10:33.649
want to hear it. Um, I think what I've realized
1785
01:10:33.670 --> 01:10:35.989
over my life or in the past for you, since
1786
01:10:36.029 --> 01:10:38.739
my father died in 2011, I've just become much more
1787
01:10:38.800 --> 01:10:41.079
protective of my time. I don't want to do like
1788
01:10:41.100 --> 01:10:43.359
a podcast interview where I say the same shit. I'd
1789
01:10:43.380 --> 01:10:45.439
rather go make a YouTube video. Everyone can hear that
1790
01:10:45.479 --> 01:10:47.159
message if they want to hear it. Or I could
1791
01:10:47.189 --> 01:10:50.630
create software. And with that being the reality is I'm
1792
01:10:50.649 --> 01:10:54.329
protective of my time. And secondly, is that I look
1793
01:10:54.369 --> 01:10:57.270
for the things that give me energy. So the people
1794
01:10:57.409 --> 01:10:59.130
and activities that give me energy, I go do those.
1795
01:10:59.569 --> 01:11:01.630
And the ones that don't give me energy and not
1796
01:11:01.649 --> 01:11:02.810
just because I have money, you don't even have to
1797
01:11:02.829 --> 01:11:04.310
have a lot of money. Just don't do those as
1798
01:11:04.350 --> 01:11:08.220
much or figure ways to replace them. And so in
1799
01:11:08.239 --> 01:11:10.760
talking with you, you didn't ask dumb ass questions. Like
1800
01:11:10.800 --> 01:11:12.260
if you were shitty, I'd be like, hey, it's 30 minutes.
1801
01:11:12.279 --> 01:11:12.680
I've got to go.
1802
01:11:13.789 --> 01:11:17.590
But it's been a good conversation, so it gives me energy.
1803
01:11:17.369 --> 01:11:17.810
To have that.
1804
01:11:17.890 --> 01:11:20.779
Well, I appreciate it, man. And I do seriously want
1805
01:11:20.800 --> 01:11:24.699
to be respectful, though. So if you're cool, I'd love
1806
01:11:24.720 --> 01:11:26.380
to do it again at some point here in the
1807
01:11:26.399 --> 01:11:28.140
near future. We can set a date and do it
1808
01:11:28.180 --> 01:11:30.899
again because I'm guessing through the listeners, they're going to
1809
01:11:30.960 --> 01:11:33.819
notice the big difference in this episode from normal, and
1810
01:11:33.859 --> 01:11:34.619
it's going to be a good thing.
1811
01:11:34.680 --> 01:11:37.590
So I appreciate it, Noah. I really do, man.
1812
01:11:37.859 --> 01:11:41.210
Thank you. I think people should take compliments better. Thank
1813
01:11:41.229 --> 01:11:42.710
you very much, Ryan. Who is Ryan Hawke?
1814
01:11:44.270 --> 01:11:47.810
So I– are you sure? Do you want to do
1815
01:11:47.850 --> 01:11:48.289
this now?
1816
01:11:48.829 --> 01:11:52.470
Yeah. I'm pushing meetings back. I've got at least five minutes.
1817
01:11:52.529 --> 01:11:55.979
So I am– I just have this inquisitive nature, and
1818
01:11:56.060 --> 01:11:59.859
so I love– I played football growing up, played in college.
1819
01:12:00.260 --> 01:12:03.039
Where did you go to college? Ohio University. I live
1820
01:12:03.579 --> 01:12:04.079
in Ohio.
1821
01:12:04.140 --> 01:12:05.239
Don't tell me you're from Akron though.
1822
01:12:05.420 --> 01:12:05.579
No.
1823
01:12:05.859 --> 01:12:07.500
No, I played at Ohio University.
1824
01:12:07.560 --> 01:12:07.699
Why?
1825
01:12:07.720 --> 01:12:08.319
What's in Akron?
1826
01:12:08.340 --> 01:12:09.680
LeBron James. LeBron James.
1827
01:12:10.520 --> 01:12:12.529
Well, I do like to watch LeBron play. I'm an
1828
01:12:12.590 --> 01:12:14.050
Ohio guy.
1829
01:12:14.170 --> 01:12:15.789
I just hate how good he is. He's got an
1830
01:12:15.850 --> 01:12:16.529
unfair advantage.
1831
01:12:17.149 --> 01:12:19.470
Well, that's different than hating how he complains to the
1832
01:12:19.529 --> 01:12:20.789
refs or flops and stuff.
1833
01:12:20.810 --> 01:12:21.569
So it's interesting.
1834
01:12:21.729 --> 01:12:23.149
And they're getting ready to play the Warriors. I don't
1835
01:12:23.170 --> 01:12:24.470
know when we're going to release this, but they're getting
1836
01:12:24.489 --> 01:12:27.149
ready to play the Warriors now. Are you a Warriors fan?
1837
01:12:28.189 --> 01:12:30.789
Yeah. I'm a Bane wagon fan, though. I've been a
1838
01:12:30.810 --> 01:12:31.520
Bane wagon fan.
1839
01:12:31.609 --> 01:12:32.340
I like both teams.
1840
01:12:33.600 --> 01:12:35.800
They're both– Kyrie– I love Kyrie.
1841
01:12:35.819 --> 01:12:37.250
I'm just going to say that. Are you a Kyrie fan?
1842
01:12:37.260 --> 01:12:38.859
If we can hang out with Kyrie, I would fly
1843
01:12:38.890 --> 01:12:40.989
to Ohio like that in a minute. That guy is
1844
01:12:41.010 --> 01:12:43.229
just so nice and cool and just– he's got so
1845
01:12:43.250 --> 01:12:46.109
much mad skills. Like I respect– someone said this and
1846
01:12:46.130 --> 01:12:48.550
I thought it was really interesting. When a tall guy
1847
01:12:48.729 --> 01:12:49.729
blocks a little.
1848
01:12:49.510 --> 01:12:51.859
Guy, it's not interesting. It's like, well, you're tall.
1849
01:12:52.359 --> 01:12:54.880
But when the little guy can block a tall guy
1850
01:12:54.979 --> 01:12:56.800
or score on the big guy, it's like that's impressive.
1851
01:12:56.819 --> 01:12:59.260
And Kyrie is that, man. Kyrie is damn good.
1852
01:12:59.479 --> 01:12:59.659
Yeah.
1853
01:13:00.180 --> 01:13:02.239
Well, getting back, so your question was about me. So
1854
01:13:02.270 --> 01:13:04.449
I played football in college, actually played in the Arena
1855
01:13:04.470 --> 01:13:06.270
Football League. You've probably never seen it, but it's on
1856
01:13:06.289 --> 01:13:07.210
TV every once in a while.
1857
01:13:07.229 --> 01:13:09.010
You played in the Arena Football League?
1858
01:13:09.029 --> 01:13:10.449
Yeah, of course you've seen it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1859
01:13:10.550 --> 01:13:11.829
So I played there for a few years, and then
1860
01:13:11.909 --> 01:13:13.350
after I got done, I got a job in sales
1861
01:13:13.369 --> 01:13:17.439
because it was like the closest thing to the competitive
1862
01:13:17.479 --> 01:13:20.500
environment that I needed. You miss that, you know, when
1863
01:13:20.520 --> 01:13:22.079
you play football or whatever it is that you're very
1864
01:13:22.140 --> 01:13:24.659
passionate about, and somebody tells you you're not good enough
1865
01:13:24.720 --> 01:13:26.180
to do it anymore, and that's what happens.
1866
01:13:26.899 --> 01:13:27.859
And that's a tough thing.
1867
01:13:27.899 --> 01:13:31.079
It's a depressing feeling, but you try to find ways
1868
01:13:31.159 --> 01:13:33.159
to make up for that. So sales is a good
1869
01:13:33.220 --> 01:13:35.600
profession for me. I continue to progress in that. But
1870
01:13:35.619 --> 01:13:39.100
then I've just moved up and then have– but had
1871
01:13:39.140 --> 01:13:42.970
this– I don't know. Always reached out to mentors. Always
1872
01:13:43.029 --> 01:13:45.489
talked to people. Would take really detailed notes. As you
1873
01:13:45.529 --> 01:13:47.310
could tell, my head was down because we're on video.
1874
01:13:47.329 --> 01:13:49.850
You're seeing me writing the whole time. But that's what
1875
01:13:50.029 --> 01:13:50.729
I always do.
1876
01:13:51.229 --> 01:13:53.899
And so I thought, well, what if I could somehow–
1877
01:13:54.380 --> 01:13:57.359
reach out to like my heroes, but you can't do that.
1878
01:13:57.399 --> 01:13:58.520
If you're just like, Hey dude, can we get on
1879
01:13:58.539 --> 01:14:00.600
the phone? No, you'd be like, well, you might say yes, but,
1880
01:14:00.760 --> 01:14:02.279
but cause you're a good dude, but a lot of
1881
01:14:02.319 --> 01:14:04.060
people would be like, no, there were what's in it
1882
01:14:04.100 --> 01:14:06.430
for me. Well, I have a podcast and it could
1883
01:14:06.470 --> 01:14:08.590
potentially help you sell more books or get your message
1884
01:14:08.630 --> 01:14:10.970
out there to more people. So that's why then I
1885
01:14:11.010 --> 01:14:13.090
launched the podcast two and a half years, three, three
1886
01:14:13.109 --> 01:14:16.529
years ago. Uh, and it's created this platform, this cool
1887
01:14:16.670 --> 01:14:18.489
thing that I wasn't really certain was going to happen
1888
01:14:18.510 --> 01:14:21.409
where you, as you said, the guy on the bridge,
1889
01:14:21.869 --> 01:14:23.449
Tells you how much he loves your podcast. Well, I
1890
01:14:23.569 --> 01:14:25.050
got stopped by a guy in the gym the other
1891
01:14:25.069 --> 01:14:26.949
day saying, I'm getting ready for this big promotion. I
1892
01:14:27.050 --> 01:14:27.869
binge listened.
1893
01:14:27.930 --> 01:14:28.569
Literally, that's what he said.
1894
01:14:28.949 --> 01:14:31.600
Binge listened to your podcast to help me prepare. And
1895
01:14:31.640 --> 01:14:34.399
I'm so much more prepared and ready to get this
1896
01:14:34.479 --> 01:14:37.560
big job. Dude, that's a great feeling. And you get
1897
01:14:37.579 --> 01:14:40.380
those emails. You get those emails every day from people
1898
01:14:40.439 --> 01:14:43.369
saying similar things. And they're smart people. They're not like...
1899
01:14:43.590 --> 01:14:46.550
These are good quality people who know what they're talking about.
1900
01:14:46.569 --> 01:14:48.829
People who listen to podcasts, they're not, they're, they're, they're
1901
01:14:48.850 --> 01:14:49.390
trying to get better.
1902
01:14:49.430 --> 01:14:49.569
Right.
1903
01:14:49.890 --> 01:14:51.689
And so it just fueled me, man, to keep this
1904
01:14:51.710 --> 01:14:54.439
thing going. And I love if I listed out my
1905
01:14:54.479 --> 01:14:57.380
best day ever, as you would say, doing a recording,
1906
01:14:57.399 --> 01:14:59.479
a podcast would be a part of that. It would
1907
01:14:59.539 --> 01:15:01.380
absolutely go on a walk with my wife would too,
1908
01:15:01.399 --> 01:15:03.520
but recording a podcast would be a part of my
1909
01:15:03.560 --> 01:15:06.829
best day ever. And so that's, that's when, you know, like, man,
1910
01:15:06.850 --> 01:15:08.789
I love this thing and I love doing it. And
1911
01:15:09.369 --> 01:15:11.310
And it's cool. I get to meet people like you
1912
01:15:11.350 --> 01:15:14.130
that probably wouldn't have happened if I didn't have this.
1913
01:15:14.210 --> 01:15:15.689
And so that's the other thing that's cool.
1914
01:15:16.689 --> 01:15:18.399
And what is your vision right now of where you
1915
01:15:18.409 --> 01:15:18.880
want to be going?
1916
01:15:20.909 --> 01:15:24.279
So I've been asked to speak more on stage, which
1917
01:15:24.340 --> 01:15:27.279
initially scared me. But I try to lean into that.
1918
01:15:27.319 --> 01:15:30.880
So I've been doing that more. And I love the
1919
01:15:30.939 --> 01:15:32.539
kind of the fear I get every time. But then
1920
01:15:32.560 --> 01:15:34.439
I get up there and it's like, You get so
1921
01:15:34.449 --> 01:15:36.260
much juice from it that I love it. And it
1922
01:15:36.319 --> 01:15:38.460
also can be another stream of revenue. I did a
1923
01:15:38.859 --> 01:15:41.119
commencement speech this year for the first time, and it
1924
01:15:41.159 --> 01:15:42.840
was one of the coolest things ever. You see like
1925
01:15:42.880 --> 01:15:45.270
all these students and their families, they're watching you. And
1926
01:15:45.289 --> 01:15:47.069
it's only because one of the people on the board
1927
01:15:47.090 --> 01:15:49.600
of the school is a podcast fan. So they ask
1928
01:15:49.619 --> 01:15:51.579
you to come give a commencement speech. So speaking is
1929
01:15:51.699 --> 01:15:53.079
part of the vision of what I want to do.
1930
01:15:53.439 --> 01:15:55.659
Probably like some sort of course building as we talked about,
1931
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although I didn't do a very good job, but that's
1932
01:15:57.350 --> 01:15:59.949
part of what it's out. And then again, I don't
1933
01:15:59.970 --> 01:16:03.109
like necessarily talking about it, but writing more, becoming much
1934
01:16:03.170 --> 01:16:05.949
better at that. So we'll see how that could potentially.
1935
01:16:05.979 --> 01:16:07.460
I've talked to Ryan Holiday a lot about that. I
1936
01:16:07.479 --> 01:16:09.140
know you and Ryan have talked a lot about that too,
1937
01:16:09.220 --> 01:16:12.350
or together about that. And you live in Austin. And
1938
01:16:12.430 --> 01:16:15.170
so I think those are all part of what I'm
1939
01:16:15.210 --> 01:16:17.250
going to do. But the thing that fuels me the most,
1940
01:16:17.289 --> 01:16:20.369
that I love the most, is to feel and to
1941
01:16:20.569 --> 01:16:24.310
see the impact it has on good people, good quality
1942
01:16:24.350 --> 01:16:26.449
people who take the time to write you an email
1943
01:16:26.500 --> 01:16:28.439
or pull you aside in the gym or on the
1944
01:16:28.479 --> 01:16:31.220
bridge and say, what you do has helped me.
1945
01:16:31.840 --> 01:16:33.220
And I love that feeling. I mean, I'm not going
1946
01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:33.680
to lie.
1947
01:16:33.720 --> 01:16:36.020
That's a lot of fuel for me to keep doing
1948
01:16:36.060 --> 01:16:38.100
it and keep being motivated by it.
1949
01:16:39.550 --> 01:16:40.310
Dude, good for you.
1950
01:16:40.529 --> 01:16:40.930
Thanks, man.
1951
01:16:41.439 --> 01:16:43.500
It's kind of the, what you're saying is interesting. I've
1952
01:16:43.520 --> 01:16:45.159
been thinking about where it's nice to have a vision,
1953
01:16:45.180 --> 01:16:47.920
but it's also have, it's also good to have good habits.
1954
01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:49.260
So you need to have a plan.
1955
01:16:49.279 --> 01:16:50.779
So my friend Taylor said, have a good plan, but
1956
01:16:50.800 --> 01:16:53.489
also have build it with that good habits, which is like, Hey,
1957
01:16:53.529 --> 01:16:55.250
I like podcasts every week, or I like speaking every
1958
01:16:55.270 --> 01:16:57.430
week or like whatever, uh, writing.
1959
01:16:57.489 --> 01:17:00.310
Consistency has been, I think one of the hallmarks of
1960
01:17:00.430 --> 01:17:03.270
what I've done is just consistently shipping every Sunday night
1961
01:17:03.310 --> 01:17:05.340
at seven o'clock Eastern for two and a half years.
1962
01:17:05.380 --> 01:17:08.659
I mean, that that's, I think my listeners appreciate that,
1963
01:17:08.720 --> 01:17:11.270
that they know like their Monday morning drive, like they're
1964
01:17:11.279 --> 01:17:12.810
going to have one to listen to if they want.
1965
01:17:13.270 --> 01:17:17.550
And it's every Sunday night. And it's never missed. And
1966
01:17:17.569 --> 01:17:19.810
I don't plan to unless something crazy happens. So I
1967
01:17:19.850 --> 01:17:23.250
think that consistency has been part of my rituals and habits.
1968
01:17:23.310 --> 01:17:26.149
And it's led to some sustained success, I think.
1969
01:17:27.199 --> 01:17:29.960
It only takes a few years to Man, it's just, yeah,
1970
01:17:29.979 --> 01:17:31.239
we all want the success, but we don't want to
1971
01:17:31.270 --> 01:17:31.770
put in the work.
1972
01:17:32.119 --> 01:17:32.279
Yeah.
1973
01:17:32.560 --> 01:17:34.489
That's why I love hiring athletes because it's like they
1974
01:17:34.510 --> 01:17:36.210
have to put in a lot of dedication and work
1975
01:17:36.229 --> 01:17:37.149
to finally get results.
1976
01:17:37.289 --> 01:17:41.829
Well, like for football, the work starts in December and
1977
01:17:41.869 --> 01:17:44.550
January and it's the workouts and the running and throwing
1978
01:17:44.670 --> 01:17:46.710
up and all the horrible stuff you have to go through.
1979
01:17:46.750 --> 01:17:49.010
And then June and July, you're running outside and lifting
1980
01:17:49.050 --> 01:17:51.659
and it's horrible and it's hot. And then eventually you
1981
01:17:51.699 --> 01:17:54.739
get to Saturday nights on game day and the crowd's
1982
01:17:54.800 --> 01:17:57.189
full and there's a, you know, you're on TV and
1983
01:17:57.199 --> 01:17:59.470
all that stuff like that. But it's not, it's just like,
1984
01:17:59.489 --> 01:18:02.010
I got a pretty sizable check for one of my speeches.
1985
01:18:02.029 --> 01:18:03.689
I remember I took my daughter Ella to the bank
1986
01:18:03.729 --> 01:18:06.050
with me to deposit the check for a specific reason.
1987
01:18:06.090 --> 01:18:08.829
She said, you get that much money for one hour speech?
1988
01:18:08.890 --> 01:18:10.859
I said, no, I got that much money for the
1989
01:18:10.979 --> 01:18:16.199
three years prior to that one hour speech. And that's
1990
01:18:16.239 --> 01:18:18.800
what I think is important to know. There was hundreds
1991
01:18:18.840 --> 01:18:21.220
and thousands of hours of work that led up to
1992
01:18:21.260 --> 01:18:22.739
that moment to where they get, they hand you a
1993
01:18:22.779 --> 01:18:24.600
check for spending an hour with their people.
1994
01:18:26.600 --> 01:18:28.859
Do you keep hustling? Uh, I would love to talk,
1995
01:18:28.899 --> 01:18:30.420
but yeah, now it's at three 45.
1996
01:18:30.420 --> 01:18:32.560
If you're not, if you come to Texas or if
1997
01:18:32.699 --> 01:18:34.770
we go get a meet Kyrie, I will fly out
1998
01:18:34.779 --> 01:18:37.729
there personally, uh, economy class, obviously.
1999
01:18:38.470 --> 01:18:40.470
And, uh, we'll go hang out with them.
2000
01:18:40.489 --> 01:18:43.149
Uh, I would love to make that happen, dude, but
2001
01:18:43.170 --> 01:18:44.010
I appreciate it, man.
2002
01:18:44.310 --> 01:18:45.470
Uh, is there anywhere you have me as well?
2003
01:18:45.550 --> 01:18:45.970
Yeah, man.
2004
01:18:45.989 --> 01:18:47.890
Is there, where do you want me to send people to,
2005
01:18:47.949 --> 01:18:49.850
to go find sumo.com or somewhere else or what?
2006
01:18:50.470 --> 01:18:52.829
Uh, check out sumo.com or app sumo. And then if
2007
01:18:52.890 --> 01:18:55.640
this is on podcast world, go check out Noah Kagan presents.
2008
01:18:56.029 --> 01:18:56.720
You can go to okay.
2009
01:18:56.729 --> 01:18:59.039
Dork.com slash podcast, or just search Noah.
2010
01:18:59.060 --> 01:19:00.359
Uh, and it's an okay.
2011
01:19:00.380 --> 01:19:00.739
It presents.
2012
01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:04.119
And I'd appreciate it if anyone liked what I had
2013
01:19:04.140 --> 01:19:06.010
to say, wanted to hear more of it in addition
2014
01:19:06.239 --> 01:19:06.590
to Ryan.
2015
01:19:06.670 --> 01:19:08.829
After Ryan, I'll be number two. I'm a happy sloppy second.
2016
01:19:09.050 --> 01:19:11.810
I highly recommend it. I listen to all of them.
2017
01:19:11.840 --> 01:19:14.199
They're really good, and it's mainly just because you're real.
2018
01:19:14.859 --> 01:19:16.520
And there's no facade you can tell. Like if I
2019
01:19:16.739 --> 01:19:18.300
flew down to Austin, I could see you. I'm guessing
2020
01:19:18.340 --> 01:19:21.420
you'd be the exact same way. Unfortunately, for some people,
2021
01:19:21.439 --> 01:19:22.020
that's unfortunate.
2022
01:19:22.079 --> 01:19:22.439
But yes.
2023
01:19:22.739 --> 01:19:22.920
Yeah.
2024
01:19:22.960 --> 01:19:25.600
But I think, you know, you hear authenticity thrown out
2025
01:19:25.619 --> 01:19:27.520
all the time. But that's a real thing with you.
2026
01:19:27.539 --> 01:19:29.510
So I appreciate it, man. I know we're over by
2027
01:19:29.520 --> 01:19:32.890
about an hour. So thanks so much, dude. I'll let
2028
01:19:32.909 --> 01:19:34.550
you know when this one's come out. And let's do
2029
01:19:34.569 --> 01:19:35.069
it again sometime.
2030
01:19:35.909 --> 01:19:38.939
Please, please, man. Cool, man. All right. Thanks, y'all. All right.
2031
01:19:39.039 --> 01:19:40.659
Have a great day. All right. You too. Bye.
2032
01:19:41.039 --> 01:19:43.520
This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over, but
2033
01:19:43.539 --> 01:19:45.699
we have plenty more to keep you locked in until
2034
01:19:45.760 --> 01:19:50.260
next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information and
2035
01:19:50.279 --> 01:19:54.560
to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or.
2036
01:19:54.560 --> 01:19:55.979
Anyone else that inspires you.
2037
01:19:56.420 --> 01:19:58.680
You can also talk to Ryan directly by reaching out
2038
01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:02.470
to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12. Thanks again, and we'll
2039
01:20:02.489 --> 01:20:04.409
see you next time on The Learning Leader Show.
2040
01:20:12.140 --> 01:20:14.659
Proud to say that this episode of The Learning Leader
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