WEBVTT
00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.480
Hey, welcome back to the Lawrence Larson Show.
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:14.960
There's a list known as the Dirty Dozen list that apparently is caring kids away from fruits and vegetables.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.679
Are pesticides the boogeyman, or is the pesticide panic the bigger threat to that?
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:23.280
I thought we'd talk about that with Richard Williams, who joins me now.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:30.079
Richard is the former director of social sciences at the FDA Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.359
Currently a TARA board member, that's TERA.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:37.679
Richard, first of all, welcome to the program and tell me what TERA is.
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:39.280
Yes, thank you.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:44.719
It's a toxicology excellence for uh risk assessment.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:46.320
Okay, very good.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:50.719
So tell me about the dirty dozen list and is it actually scaring kids away?
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:56.320
Well, it's it certainly is scaring low-income people away, and that is the problem.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:12.560
Um and it's been going on you know for a long time, for decades, where activists have been trying to point out that there are pesticide residues, and I want to emphasize that point, residues, small amounts on fruits and vegetables, and saying you got you should be worried about this.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:23.680
The reason this is a problem is both adults and children only they only get about one, one out of ten people get the right amount of fruits and vegetables.
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:29.920
And so not eating fruits and vegetables because of these warnings is a much, much bigger problem.
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:39.040
So, in other words, it's a bigger problem than the small amount of residue from whatever that you would get as a result of eating the fruits or vegetables.
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:40.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:40.640 --> 00:02:02.959
You know, every year, and this doesn't get publicized, the USDA um they do a survey uh and they look at all fruit, they sample the fruits and vegetables and they look at pesticide residues, and they find that, and this is every year, 99% of all the fruits and vegetables have or pet have pesticide residues that are below this the safe level.
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:09.599
And when I say below, I'm talking about a hundred to a thousand times lower than uh the safe level.
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:17.360
So why are people getting so wound up about numbers that are that far away from anything that's hazardous?
00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:18.800
I think two reasons.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.800
One, like I say, they don't get those numbers, it doesn't get publicized.
00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:25.919
Uh, what does get publicized is things that scare people.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:38.800
And this is this is a a common problem in risk analysis, and that's really my field, that people pay attention to something that's scary, particularly if someone says, oh, someone else is doing doing it to you.
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:45.360
And if it's a corporation that's making money, even if it's a farm, uh, that's oh, they're outraged.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.000
And and if you generate outrage, outrage, you get a lot of clicks.
00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:58.639
You know, it's funny, uh, Richard, let me ask you about something because I remember years ago there was a big to-do over something called Alar that I think they sprayed on apples.
00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:06.960
And I there were there were moms who had put their kids in a car and drive 50 miles out in the countryside to buy apples that didn't have all our in them.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:21.840
And somebody did the statistical risk assessment and said the mom was actually putting her kids at greater risk by putting them in a car to drive 20 miles or thirty miles, whatever it was, out in the countryside to buy all our free apples than the all our was producing.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:30.159
You know, and and is that an example of of where people overreact to one risk and then put their kids at risk of something else without even realizing it?
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.240
That that's a perfect example.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:33.919
Uh, and there was more to that story.
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:38.400
Interestingly, one mother forgot and put an apple into her child's lunch bag.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:43.840
She called the sheriff's department, and the sheriff's department set a car out and they pulled over the school bus.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.080
They took the offending apple in the bag, they put it in a field, and they shot it.
00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.439
They they shot the apple because it might have allar on it.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.080
Now, at the end of the day, was there anything actually wrong with Alar?
00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:57.680
No, no.
00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:00.719
Again, uh this this is you know another example.
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:06.560
You find things to scare people about, and uh and they get scared, and and and bad things happen.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.280
Like I say, we're not eating enough fruits and vegetables.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:18.240
And if you notice, three out of four of us are overweight or obese, and that's going to lead to a lot of uh chronic illness, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:23.920
And so you could you could actually eat more fruits and vegetables, maybe you make sure that you wash them off.
00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:36.240
And how much of the residue is a result of not washing off the fruits and vegetables because the residue is on on the surface of the fruits or vegetables and could be washed off, but people don't take care to do that.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.160
Or is that not the problem?
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:40.399
Well, I don't think it's much of a problem.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:48.800
I mean, certainly uh if you're if you're buying your fruits and vegetables off of a stand uh by the side of the road, it might be worth washing them off just to make sure.
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:52.720
But uh this is, you know, USDA will not wash them and then test them.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.959
They test them as they get them.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:56.000
So I don't think it's a problem.
00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:04.879
Oh, so no, but but hold on, Richard, that means they're saying if you take this apple and you don't even rinse it off, this is the amount of residue that's on it.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:11.279
Wouldn't it be interesting to know how much residue is left after you just rinse it off and uh and then dry it with a towel?
00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:11.920
Right.
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:17.600
And and remember, this is a a it's it's a very tiny amount, no matter what you're talking about.
00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:24.000
I I I think of an analogy, it's sort of like if you jump off of a 10-story building, you're probably going to die.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.519
If you jump off the curb, you're probably gonna build a little muscle.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.439
And that's the that's the proper way to look at the respective risks there.
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:45.360
So is the FDA doing anything at this point uh to uh you know that that would allow or or or uh cause industry to be using the kinds of pesticides that would actually put people at risk?
00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:53.759
Uh as far as I know, and and I I wish I had more information about this, but right now we don't see that there are pesticides that are putting people at risk.
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.920
In fact, it's the exact opposite.
00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.160
Um we need these pesticides.
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:05.199
You know, this pesticides were really a big part of the Green Revolution after World War II when people around the world were starving.
00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:10.959
And we've increased the yields uh tremendously to feed the the world's population.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:18.959
For example, if we wanted to go to all organic, uh organic food has as much as 25% lower yields.
00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:28.319
So we would end up using 40% more land if we tried to go all organic, and that would be uh a huge environmental disaster.
00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:33.439
I mean, isn't that one of the reasons that old Thomas Malthus is, you know, he's spinning in his grave?
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:42.399
Because he said there was never going to be a time when men could build or could uh grow enough food to be able to supply a growing population on planet Earth.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.759
And that turned out to be absolutely positively wrong, didn't it?
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.600
Yeah, Malthus, and and and let's let's give him some credit.
00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.199
He didn't really live in a in a time period when there was a lot of invention and innovation, and we do.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.360
Uh and it keeps going on.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.800
We're now using precision agriculture, which is fantastic.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:09.199
We're not just watering whole fields, we monitor the field and they find out precisely which plant needs more water, things like that.
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.759
And uh again, it's it's increasing the yields, and that's making us all healthier.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.000
Well, and frankly, uh Mr.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:23.600
Williams, uh, I having known some farmers, and you say to them, Are you out there just spraying any amount of pesticide or herbicide or whatever?
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.439
And they say, No, that stuff's expensive.
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.480
We try to spray as little of it as we possibly can.
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.399
There's no reason why they would want to uh waste uh these things.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:35.120
Absolutely.
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:36.800
You know what I'd love to see, Mr.
00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:37.360
Williams?
00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:45.759
My understanding from the people who run, say, garden shops, they say you want to find overuse of pesticides and herbicides, go to most people's backyards.
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:58.800
So the same person who's getting wound up about their kids being exposed to residues on fruits and vegetables is actually putting down a huge amount of pesticides and herbicides just to make his or her yard pretty.
00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.279
Back in a moment, we'll get to your phone calls and emails.
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:02.879
866, hey Lars.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.279
You're listening to the Lars Larson Show and the Radio Northwest Network.
00:00:06.400 --> 00:00:08.480
Hey, welcome back to the Lawrence Larson Show.
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:14.960
There's a list known as the Dirty Dozen list that apparently is caring kids away from fruits and vegetables.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.679
Are pesticides the boogeyman, or is the pesticide panic the bigger threat to that?
00:00:19.920 --> 00:00:23.280
I thought we'd talk about that with Richard Williams, who joins me now.
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:30.079
Richard is the former director of social sciences at the FDA Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:33.359
Currently a TARA board member, that's TERA.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:37.679
Richard, first of all, welcome to the program and tell me what TERA is.
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:39.280
Yes, thank you.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:44.719
It's a toxicology excellence for uh risk assessment.
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:46.320
Okay, very good.
00:00:46.479 --> 00:00:50.719
So tell me about the dirty dozen list and is it actually scaring kids away?
00:00:51.439 --> 00:00:56.320
Well, it's it certainly is scaring low-income people away, and that is the problem.
00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:12.560
Um and it's been going on you know for a long time, for decades, where activists have been trying to point out that there are pesticide residues, and I want to emphasize that point, residues, small amounts on fruits and vegetables, and saying you got you should be worried about this.
00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:23.680
The reason this is a problem is both adults and children only they only get about one, one out of ten people get the right amount of fruits and vegetables.
00:01:23.840 --> 00:01:29.920
And so not eating fruits and vegetables because of these warnings is a much, much bigger problem.
00:01:30.799 --> 00:01:39.040
So, in other words, it's a bigger problem than the small amount of residue from whatever that you would get as a result of eating the fruits or vegetables.
00:01:39.439 --> 00:01:40.480
Yeah, absolutely.
00:01:40.640 --> 00:02:02.959
You know, every year, and this doesn't get publicized, the USDA um they do a survey uh and they look at all fruit, they sample the fruits and vegetables and they look at pesticide residues, and they find that, and this is every year, 99% of all the fruits and vegetables have or pet have pesticide residues that are below this the safe level.
00:02:03.120 --> 00:02:09.599
And when I say below, I'm talking about a hundred to a thousand times lower than uh the safe level.
00:02:10.319 --> 00:02:17.360
So why are people getting so wound up about numbers that are that far away from anything that's hazardous?
00:02:17.840 --> 00:02:18.800
I think two reasons.
00:02:18.960 --> 00:02:22.800
One, like I say, they don't get those numbers, it doesn't get publicized.
00:02:22.960 --> 00:02:25.919
Uh, what does get publicized is things that scare people.
00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:38.800
And this is this is a a common problem in risk analysis, and that's really my field, that people pay attention to something that's scary, particularly if someone says, oh, someone else is doing doing it to you.
00:02:38.879 --> 00:02:45.360
And if it's a corporation that's making money, even if it's a farm, uh, that's oh, they're outraged.
00:02:45.520 --> 00:02:50.000
And and if you generate outrage, outrage, you get a lot of clicks.
00:02:50.400 --> 00:02:58.639
You know, it's funny, uh, Richard, let me ask you about something because I remember years ago there was a big to-do over something called Alar that I think they sprayed on apples.
00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:06.960
And I there were there were moms who had put their kids in a car and drive 50 miles out in the countryside to buy apples that didn't have all our in them.
00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:21.840
And somebody did the statistical risk assessment and said the mom was actually putting her kids at greater risk by putting them in a car to drive 20 miles or thirty miles, whatever it was, out in the countryside to buy all our free apples than the all our was producing.
00:03:22.080 --> 00:03:30.159
You know, and and is that an example of of where people overreact to one risk and then put their kids at risk of something else without even realizing it?
00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:32.240
That that's a perfect example.
00:03:32.319 --> 00:03:33.919
Uh, and there was more to that story.
00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:38.400
Interestingly, one mother forgot and put an apple into her child's lunch bag.
00:03:38.479 --> 00:03:43.840
She called the sheriff's department, and the sheriff's department set a car out and they pulled over the school bus.
00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:48.080
They took the offending apple in the bag, they put it in a field, and they shot it.
00:03:48.400 --> 00:03:51.439
They they shot the apple because it might have allar on it.
00:03:52.719 --> 00:03:56.080
Now, at the end of the day, was there anything actually wrong with Alar?
00:03:56.960 --> 00:03:57.680
No, no.
00:03:57.919 --> 00:04:00.719
Again, uh this this is you know another example.
00:04:00.879 --> 00:04:06.560
You find things to scare people about, and uh and they get scared, and and and bad things happen.
00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.280
Like I say, we're not eating enough fruits and vegetables.
00:04:09.360 --> 00:04:18.240
And if you notice, three out of four of us are overweight or obese, and that's going to lead to a lot of uh chronic illness, heart disease, cancer, and diabetes.
00:04:18.560 --> 00:04:23.920
And so you could you could actually eat more fruits and vegetables, maybe you make sure that you wash them off.
00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:36.240
And how much of the residue is a result of not washing off the fruits and vegetables because the residue is on on the surface of the fruits or vegetables and could be washed off, but people don't take care to do that.
00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:38.160
Or is that not the problem?
00:04:38.720 --> 00:04:40.399
Well, I don't think it's much of a problem.
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:48.800
I mean, certainly uh if you're if you're buying your fruits and vegetables off of a stand uh by the side of the road, it might be worth washing them off just to make sure.
00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:52.720
But uh this is, you know, USDA will not wash them and then test them.
00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:54.959
They test them as they get them.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:56.000
So I don't think it's a problem.
00:04:56.079 --> 00:05:04.879
Oh, so no, but but hold on, Richard, that means they're saying if you take this apple and you don't even rinse it off, this is the amount of residue that's on it.
00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:11.279
Wouldn't it be interesting to know how much residue is left after you just rinse it off and uh and then dry it with a towel?
00:05:11.680 --> 00:05:11.920
Right.
00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:17.600
And and remember, this is a a it's it's a very tiny amount, no matter what you're talking about.
00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:24.000
I I I think of an analogy, it's sort of like if you jump off of a 10-story building, you're probably going to die.
00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:27.519
If you jump off the curb, you're probably gonna build a little muscle.
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:33.439
And that's the that's the proper way to look at the respective risks there.
00:05:33.680 --> 00:05:45.360
So is the FDA doing anything at this point uh to uh you know that that would allow or or or uh cause industry to be using the kinds of pesticides that would actually put people at risk?
00:05:46.079 --> 00:05:53.759
Uh as far as I know, and and I I wish I had more information about this, but right now we don't see that there are pesticides that are putting people at risk.
00:05:54.000 --> 00:05:55.920
In fact, it's the exact opposite.
00:05:56.079 --> 00:05:58.160
Um we need these pesticides.
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:05.199
You know, this pesticides were really a big part of the Green Revolution after World War II when people around the world were starving.
00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:10.959
And we've increased the yields uh tremendously to feed the the world's population.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:18.959
For example, if we wanted to go to all organic, uh organic food has as much as 25% lower yields.
00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:28.319
So we would end up using 40% more land if we tried to go all organic, and that would be uh a huge environmental disaster.
00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:33.439
I mean, isn't that one of the reasons that old Thomas Malthus is, you know, he's spinning in his grave?
00:06:33.519 --> 00:06:42.399
Because he said there was never going to be a time when men could build or could uh grow enough food to be able to supply a growing population on planet Earth.
00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:45.759
And that turned out to be absolutely positively wrong, didn't it?
00:06:46.000 --> 00:06:49.600
Yeah, Malthus, and and and let's let's give him some credit.
00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:55.199
He didn't really live in a in a time period when there was a lot of invention and innovation, and we do.
00:06:55.680 --> 00:06:57.360
Uh and it keeps going on.
00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:00.800
We're now using precision agriculture, which is fantastic.
00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:09.199
We're not just watering whole fields, we monitor the field and they find out precisely which plant needs more water, things like that.
00:07:09.360 --> 00:07:13.759
And uh again, it's it's increasing the yields, and that's making us all healthier.
00:07:14.160 --> 00:07:16.000
Well, and frankly, uh Mr.
00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:23.600
Williams, uh, I having known some farmers, and you say to them, Are you out there just spraying any amount of pesticide or herbicide or whatever?
00:07:23.680 --> 00:07:25.439
And they say, No, that stuff's expensive.
00:07:25.600 --> 00:07:28.480
We try to spray as little of it as we possibly can.
00:07:29.120 --> 00:07:30.079
Yeah, absolutely.
00:07:30.240 --> 00:07:34.399
There's no reason why they would want to uh waste uh these things.
00:07:34.560 --> 00:07:35.120
Absolutely.
00:07:35.360 --> 00:07:36.800
You know what I'd love to see, Mr.
00:07:36.879 --> 00:07:37.360
Williams?
00:07:37.519 --> 00:07:45.759
My understanding from the people who run, say, garden shops, they say you want to find overuse of pesticides and herbicides, go to most people's backyards.
00:07:45.920 --> 00:07:58.800
So the same person who's getting wound up about their kids being exposed to residues on fruits and vegetables is actually putting down a huge amount of pesticides and herbicides just to make his or her yard pretty.
00:07:58.959 --> 00:08:01.279
Back in a moment, we'll get to your phone calls and emails.
00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:02.879
866, hey Lars.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.279
You're listening to the Lars Larson Show and the Radio Northwest Network.
